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Inspiration

Remembering Sangharakshita: Finding a Teacher Through His Talks

London Buddhist Centre
London Buddhist Centre
Oct 31, 2026
7 Min. Lesezeit

Von London Buddhist Centre

Ansehen · 5

On a Friday evening at the London Buddhist Centre, a room settled into a shorter-than-usual mindfulness of breathing and then turned to memory. The occasion was a recollection of Urgyen Sangharakshita, founder of the Triratna Buddhist Order and Community and, in the words of the teacher leading the session, his own Buddhist teacher. Rather than a lecture about the man, the evening took the form of a conversation with Saddhanandi, a longtime member of the order who trained as an artist, moved to Glasgow in 1983, and spent two decades at the women's retreat centre Taraloka. What emerges from the recording is a portrait of how a devoted student built a relationship with a teacher she could not get close to in person, and found that his written and recorded words were where she could actually meet him.

Lesen · 7 Abschnitte

How does a Buddhist class open a remembrance of its founder?

The session began the way the centre's weekly classes do: with a settling of posture and a practice of mindfulness of breathing. The leader asked the room to notice whatever state it was in, tired, grumpy, dull, or relaxed, and to rest attention on the breath as the thing "quietly sustaining you and giving you life." It is a small detail, but it sets the register for everything that followed. Remembrance here is not a eulogy delivered from a height. It begins with the people in the room tuning in to their own experience, the same ground Sangharakshita's teaching asks every practitioner to start from.

The format at [3:47] was explicit: a short meditation, then questions, so that the audience could "get to know" Sangharakshita "a bit through us talking." Many of the evening's most affecting moments came from that choice. The questions gave Saddhanandi room to tell the story in her own order, with the digressions and hesitations intact.

Why did a reluctant newcomer end up at a Buddhist centre?

Saddhanandi was candid that she did not come to Buddhism looking for it. "I didn't particularly want to get involved with Buddhism or meditation," she said, "but I had a guy in my life who was getting very involved." His suggestion was simple: go to the Buddhist centre. She went, was taught to meditate, and in the way of a student who likes to research, she began collecting Sangharakshita's material and making notes on which talks to listen to next.

She had moved to Glasgow by then, and she describes the next stage as a kind of self-directed apprenticeship. She listened to a great many of his lectures on tape, wrote out notes, and kept a list. There were, she said, very few other Dharma teachers writing and speaking in English at that time. "You go to the bookshop now and it's full of people writing books," she recalled. Then, there was Sangharakshita, and his work was what she had to work with.

What happens when you can't get close to your teacher in person?

The most striking thread in the evening is Saddhanandi's account of her first real encounter with him. She met him when two women in Glasgow were ordained, with Sangharakshita acting as their preceptor. There were around thirteen people on that retreat, and she got a chance to speak with him one to one. It did not go the way she hoped. Her conclusion, which she gave at [35:37], is worth quoting in full because it is so clear-eyed:

"I realised, having met him one-to-one, this is not a method that's going to really work for me. I cannot get to know this person through meeting with him one-to-one because the communication has felt very stilted and awkward. And I thought, I'm just going to get to know him through his talks. Actually, that's who I'm going to meet."

That decision reframes a lot of what a teacher-student relationship can be. Saddhanandi did not give up on Sangharakshita because the face-to-face meeting disappointed her. She adjusted the channel. The seminars and lectures became the place where she could actually listen to him think, and where, over years, the relationship deepened. It is a useful reminder for anyone who imagines spiritual mentorship must be intimate in the conventional sense. For some students, the lasting connection runs through the teaching itself.

How did a letter and a postcard lead to ordination?

Having come to know his talks so thoroughly, Saddhanandi wrote to Sangharakshita asking for ordination. In the Triratna tradition, that request is ordinarily made to the teacher himself, and she still remembers his reply. She recalled the postcard's tone and its opening, addressed to "Dear Rachel," her name at the time, and its warm acknowledgement that he was "very pleased to hear that you've wanted to ask for ordination." He noted that members of the order in her area would give her feedback on when the time might be right. It was a small, practical letter, and she held onto it for decades.

The postcard matters because it shows the order's structure at work in an individual life. The request went to the founder, but the decision was handed back to a local community of order members who knew her and could walk with her. That is the kind of arrangement that makes a movement feel less like a hierarchy and more like a network of people who are continually discerning together.

What does it look like to be devoted and still hold things lightly?

The interviewer offered a memory from a 2020 order retreat at Adhisthana, the centre in the Midlands where Sangharakshita's body is buried and where his books are gathered, along with a large community of men and women. The two had led the retreat together, and the interviewer said of Saddhanandi: "I was really struck by how engaged you were with that situation, and committed and loyal to Bhante, and also you could all hold things very lightly as well."

That combination of loyalty and lightness is perhaps the evening's quiet lesson. Devotion in the Triratna context is not supposed to harden into rigidity. The reverence for a teacher and the willingness to let difficult circumstances pass through you without clutching at them are presented here as two sides of one practice. The breath that opened the session, quietly sustaining, returns as a model: steady without being tight.

How did the evening end?

The session closed with chanting, a formal act of refuge and recollection. The lines that came through the recording included "We reverence the Buddha," followed by phrases about what the Buddha attained and about the sangha growing and "shining within our hearts." The chant turned a conversation about one man's life into a shared act of remembrance for the whole room, and it made clear that the evening was never really about celebrating one figure in isolation. It was about what his teaching made possible in the people who received it.

Where to go from here

If this evening moved you, the most natural next step is the one Saddhanandi took: go to the teaching itself. Sangharakshita's lectures and seminars are the material she describes listening to, taking notes on, and returning to over decades. Begin with a single talk rather than a shelf of books, and treat it the way she did, as a relationship you are building slowly. If you have a local Triratna centre or a regular class, a weekly meditation practice like the one that opened this session is a good way to find out whether a teacher's words land in your own experience. The recording itself is also worth watching in full for the unhurried quality of a community remembering one of its own, with all the laughter, pauses, and digressions left in.

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Transcript

[0:01] Hello.

[0:36] Can you stop meditation?

[1:03] It's got a few stri

[1:26] She lets

[1:46] Okay, great. So let's start by uh

[1:48] saluting the shrine, saluting the three.

[2:06] [chanting]

[2:10] more

[2:12] than

[2:16] [chanting]

[2:19] more

[2:21] higher.

[2:24] [chanting]

[2:33] [chanting]

[2:35] Home.

[2:37] >> Home.

[2:41] Home.

[2:42] >> Home.

[3:07] >> [clears throat]

[3:09] >> Okay. So, yeah, really really warm

[3:11] welcome uh to the center to this special

[3:13] Friday evening class. Welcome to

[3:15] everybody in the room and also welcome

[3:17] to you online as well. Uh so yeah, an

[3:20] extra special uh Friday night class

[3:22] today where we're going to be

[3:24] remembering, recollecting, celebrating

[3:26] uh Urgen Sangar, the founder uh of uh

[3:31] the Tribna Buddhist order and community

[3:33] and uh my my Buddhist teacher. Um and

[3:38] we're going to start by doing a

[3:40] meditation. Uh we're going to do the

[3:42] mindfulness of breathing quite for those

[3:44] of you who are regular to the class,

[3:45] it's going to be a shorter meditation uh

[3:47] than usual. And then after that um I'm

[3:50] going to ask um Sad and a few questions

[3:54] and we're going to get to know uh Bante

[3:57] Sangra a bit through us talking.

[4:01] Okay. So if you'd like to set yourselves

[4:03] up in your meditation posture, I'll lead

[4:05] us into the practice and then I'll just

[4:07] ring uh bells to mark the stages.

[4:29] >> [clears throat]

[4:55] >> Okay. Really settling into your posture,

[4:59] feeling the weight of the body

[5:02] flowing down into the floor,

[5:05] into the earth beneath you.

[5:23] all of the heaviness of the muscles and

[5:26] the bones

[5:29] flowing down

[5:36] and taking your seat, taking your place

[5:39] in the room.

[6:13] So, just tuning in a little bit to how

[6:15] you're feeling right now. You might be

[6:17] feeling a bit tired or grumpy,

[6:25] dull or neutral or not know how you're

[6:27] feeling.

[6:32] Or you may be feeling reasonably relaxed

[6:34] and well.

[7:23] And right in the center of your

[7:24] experience, right in the heart of your

[7:26] experience, whatever it is,

[7:29] is your own breathing

[7:32] quietly sustaining you and giving you

[7:34] life.

[8:29] And we're going to spend some time now

[8:31] just being with ourselves,

[8:34] being with our own breathing.

[9:26] the mindfulness of breathing practice.

[9:40] >> [music]

[21:23] [cough]

[21:23] [clears throat]

[21:31] [clears throat]

[21:51] [snorts]

[29:19] [music]

[29:29] [snorts]

[29:50] [snorts]

[29:53] [laughter and cough]

[30:03] >> Okay. So, yeah, do sit comfortably.

[30:05] Height. So, now I need to come to the

[30:07] front. And

[30:10] so Mitch, I need to move the speaker to

[30:12] the table.

[30:15] >> Yeah.

[30:18] >> Do I need to move the speaker?

[30:20] >> Yes.

[30:21] >> Yeah.

[30:42] Okay. So, uh yeah, good to do a bit of

[30:44] mindfulness practice just to self myself

[30:47] at least and hope you've got into your

[30:50] practice. It's been a bit more fully. Uh

[30:52] yes, I'm really pleased um that uh Sadin

[30:55] Andy was able to come on this evening.

[30:58] Um

[31:00] uh I got to know Sadini. I I looked back

[31:03] in on my in my emails track back it was

[31:05] 2020 so six years ago and we jointly led

[31:10] an order retreat to Adashana on on

[31:12] Shakiuni and uh you I knew you a little

[31:15] bit before then but I really got to know

[31:17] you through collaborating with you and I

[31:19] was really struck by um uh well just how

[31:23] engaged you were with that situation and

[31:26] uh committed and loyal to Bante and also

[31:30] um you could all hold it hold things

[31:32] very lightly as well. I could see, you

[31:33] know, there was a lot to hold and you

[31:35] seem to be able to hold it lightly. So,

[31:36] I was really struck by that when we did

[31:38] that retreat together.

[31:41] Um, so just a little bit of uh uh um

[31:45] about sudden Andy before we uh start

[31:48] talking a bit more. So uh she trained as

[31:51] an artist at the central school of

[31:53] London and was initially involved with

[31:55] the Cuden Sand SA before moving to

[31:58] Glasgow in 1983 where she attended the

[32:01] Buddhist center and lived in a women's

[32:03] community there. And then in in uh 1994

[32:07] she moved to Tara Loka and lived there

[32:10] for 20 years and was chair there for the

[32:13] last 13 of those years. um and before

[32:17] being before being asked to move to

[32:20] Allesana and Taraoka for those of you

[32:22] who don't know is a a tree ratner

[32:25] retreat center for women

[32:28] and then during the next few years she

[32:30] got to know whilst at Adishana she got

[32:32] to know Sangaracha whilst doing a series

[32:34] of interviews uh with him and through

[32:37] meeting up with him very regularly as a

[32:39] friend and also in your capacity as

[32:41] chair of Adishana and uh once again For

[32:45] those of you don't who don't know,

[32:46] Adishana is um in in the Midlands and

[32:49] it's our our tree ratner central if you

[32:52] like where [snorts] the uh uh Bante

[32:55] Sandra's body is um buried and uh

[32:59] there's all his books are collected and

[33:01] there's a large community of men and

[33:03] women who live there.

[33:06] Okay. So just a little preamble. Uh so

[33:09] in terms of thought we'd just you know

[33:12] talk I'm going to ask you a few

[33:13] questions and I hope just get you

[33:15] started and then you can tell us about

[33:17] your experience.

[33:18] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[33:19] >> So I thought maybe we could start by

[33:21] telling us why um what was your first

[33:24] contact with Bante with urgian sancture

[33:27] and the movement that he'd started.

[33:29] >> Yeah.

[33:30] >> Okay. Yeah. So um this is all going to

[33:32] be a bit about me. So I'm sorry about

[33:34] this. So just warming up to bante we're

[33:36] going there. We are heading there in

[33:37] that direction. Okay. Uh yes, I got

[33:40] involved in the movement in 1983 uh in

[33:43] Cuddon. I didn't particularly want to

[33:45] get involved with Buddhism or

[33:47] meditation, but I had a guy in my life

[33:49] who was getting very involved. And he

[33:50] said, "Would you go to the Buddhist

[33:52] center?" I'm in Glasgow. There's Glasgow

[33:54] Buddhist Center. You're in Cuddon.

[33:55] There's a Cuddon Buddhist Center. Can

[33:57] you go there? I was like, "Right, okay,

[33:59] whatever." And [laughter]

[34:01] I got I got [clears throat] taught by

[34:02] somebody who looked like a well I always

[34:04] thought he looked like a rugby player

[34:05] but everyone if you weren't if you

[34:07] didn't go to art school you look like a

[34:08] rugby player basically it came down to

[34:11] any years later I said to Pamadra did

[34:14] you teach me to meditate I did

[34:18] and I think he was going to India and

[34:21] being in Cudon at that time I was going

[34:22] backwards and forwards quite a bit

[34:24] >> and I moved to Glasgow and um uh

[34:27] suddenly I was in this situation

[34:30] And I started going to the Buddhist

[34:32] center there. And then I was hearing

[34:34] lectures by Sangaraja.

[34:36] Strange slow lectures. Yeah. And um I

[34:42] think then I just sort of started just

[34:44] listening to a lot. I think I I'm

[34:46] probably somebody who I don't know maybe

[34:48] I'm a research person or somebody. I

[34:50] just started listening to a lot of tape

[34:52] lectures by him and [clears throat] and

[34:54] writing down all the notes and writing

[34:55] down which ones I'd listen to and

[34:57] everything. And then uh I would I think

[35:01] probably the first time I really really

[35:03] started I met him probably was um when

[35:07] two of the women in Glasgow got ordained

[35:09] the first women that got ordained in

[35:11] Glasgow which was maybe in 80 maybe in '

[35:14] 86 or something and he was on that

[35:17] retreat and being the preceptor to them

[35:19] and then we were around there. There was

[35:21] like 13 of us on that retreat. I was one

[35:23] of the people there and I got a chance

[35:25] to meet with him. But I think

[35:30] yeah um

[35:32] I think quite early on I realized having

[35:35] met him onetoone

[35:37] this is not a method that's going to

[35:39] really work for me. I cannot get to know

[35:41] this person through meeting with him

[35:42] onetoone because the communication has

[35:45] felt very stilted and awkward. And I

[35:47] thought I'm just going to get to know

[35:49] him through his his talks. Actually,

[35:52] that's who I'm going to meet. I read his

[35:54] seminars. I listened to his talks. I was

[35:57] very um yeah, it was very simple for me

[36:01] actually. There weren't many other

[36:02] dharma teachers at that time. You you

[36:05] nowadays you go to the library, you go

[36:06] to the bookshop, it's just full of

[36:08] people writing books. I mean there was

[36:10] like hardly anything I think at that

[36:12] time really and Sanger was one of them

[36:14] that was writing and I was listening to

[36:17] a lot of his talks and then I wrote to

[36:20] him to ask for ordination which is what

[36:22] you did you didn't write to anybody else

[36:23] he wrote to Sang Rasha and I meant to

[36:26] bring a postcard with me which he wrote

[36:27] back you know I still remember it I sort

[36:30] of say in his tone of voice I sort of

[36:32] dear sodandi well it's I'm very pleased

[36:35] that you've asked for ordination or dear

[36:37] Rachel sorry that's so I've got two

[36:39] names. You will dear Rachel as I was

[36:41] then. Um I'm very pleased to hear that

[36:44] um you've wanted to ask for donation and

[36:46] no doubt um the order members in your um

[36:49] area will be giving you feedback as to

[36:51] when that might happen and I look

[36:53] forward to that one day happening

[36:55] something like that and a very nice

[36:57] picture on the front or something. And

[36:59] then I think um I went on some very

[37:02] intensive solitary retreats where I was

[37:04] just there on my own for two or three

[37:06] weeks just as this young woman and then

[37:08] I'd write him really long letters

[37:11] >> like 16 pages. [laughter]

[37:15] >> I mean eventually when I was ordained I

[37:17] received women writing to me 16 pages. I

[37:21] thought I know what this looks like

[37:22] anyway. But he wrote two p postcards to

[37:25] me like really within a couple of weeks

[37:28] in reply to them. It was very nice.

[37:30] >> And I've got this horrible feeling that

[37:32] somewhere in the loft in above the

[37:34] women's community that is going to be in

[37:36] an archive box under the [clears throat]

[37:38] name whatever I had at that moment, you

[37:40] know, um 1987 or whatever it was.

[37:44] >> And then um I think you sort of build up

[37:49] your own relationship. It's not like I

[37:51] really thought I needed to have a

[37:52] sangria. You know, I had relationships

[37:54] with the order members I was in contact

[37:56] with, the women that I was living with,

[37:58] the dharma that were coming up from

[38:00] London to lead retreats, which was

[38:02] needed because we had we just had two

[38:05] very young dharma in Glasgow and um

[38:08] nobody else there. I mean, the nearest

[38:09] Dharmache at that moment was probably

[38:13] London, which is still quite far away.

[38:16] and um yeah really loyal daties like

[38:20] Parami and Anoma and people coming up

[38:23] and my relationship with them was

[38:25] developing the Sangraster then I didn't

[38:28] really get to I didn't get to know this

[38:29] guy this this isn't the Sangra I knew

[38:33] the Sangra I got to know was um there

[38:35] was this beautiful black and white

[38:37] photograph in um a newsletter with him

[38:40] sitting at his desk I suppose possibly

[38:43] at Pamela at that time got books on one

[38:46] side and he's just sitting at a desk and

[38:47] he's just writing something and you just

[38:49] see him sideways

[38:50] >> and it's a full um A3 you know spread

[38:54] >> and I thought that is the teacher that I

[38:56] know the guy that writes lectures the

[38:59] guy that's writing letters to me

[39:01] postcards to me

[39:02] >> just sitting quietly at a desk and

[39:04] thinking things through uh dressed in

[39:06] very ordinary clothes and um yeah that

[39:09] was the Sangra I got to know and then

[39:12] and then through his dharma lectures and

[39:14] I will just say gradually Over the

[39:16] years, what I learned was I'm not

[39:18] looking for information about the

[39:20] dharma. I'm looking for words of power.

[39:23] And he spoke words of power. That's what

[39:25] it comes down to.

[39:26] >> And uh

[39:28] >> what do you mean by power?

[39:29] >> Yeah.

[39:31] And this is probably I just realized one

[39:32] of the questions you I know you were

[39:33] going to ask me was like what made me

[39:35] think he was my teacher?

[39:37] >> This is probably answering this.

[39:38] >> So words of power are words that are

[39:41] going to change your life. And um

[39:45] so I was in contact with them through

[39:48] his lectures where I you know I would

[39:51] hear something he would say and I'd hear

[39:54] um it could be something very simple. I

[39:57] remember in one of the lectures on

[39:58] awareness where he just says you need to

[40:01] know what your positive emotions are or

[40:03] you need to know your emotional

[40:04] experience and you need to name them.

[40:05] And I thought how often do I just say me

[40:08] I feel all right. And I thought what

[40:11] would it feel like if I said I'm feeling

[40:13] faith or I'm feeling resentment or if

[40:16] you name it accurately it makes such a

[40:19] difference

[40:20] >> and I thought my goodness that could

[40:22] make quite a big difference to my life.

[40:24] So there was one thing or like another

[40:27] one would be the nature of samsara is

[40:30] compulsion.

[40:32] >> You can go a long way with that. Yeah.

[40:35] [laughter]

[40:35] I mean when you feel that compulsion in

[40:37] you, you know samsara is working the

[40:40] system. Yeah.

[40:41] >> Or what about this one? Um

[40:45] um energy uh vira. The lack of energy is

[40:50] not so much uh the lack of the lack of

[40:54] vira is not so much the lack of energy,

[40:57] it's the lack of vision.

[41:00] >> Very nice. Because when we when we're

[41:02] feeling lazy, when we're not applying

[41:05] ourselves, we think we don't have

[41:07] energy. But how different would it feel

[41:09] if you thought I don't have vision? And

[41:11] it is it takes you in a different place

[41:13] and that helps you understand what

[41:16] you're doing. Yeah.

[41:18] I mean, this is why I end up as my

[41:20] teacher. Okay. And there's this great

[41:22] one where um he says uh patience is not

[41:26] so much the ability to withstand pain

[41:30] that gets stronger and stronger. It's

[41:32] the thing that we think is getting hurt

[41:35] gets weaker and weaker. Go a long way on

[41:38] that one as well.

[41:39] >> Can you say that one again?

[41:42] >> Uh patience is not so much our ability

[41:45] to withstand pain that gets stronger and

[41:48] stronger. It's more that the thing that

[41:52] ex that thinks it's getting hurt gets

[41:55] smaller and smaller or weaker and

[41:57] weaker.

[41:58] >> Yeah. Is that making sense?

[42:00] >> Yeah.

[42:02] >> So, he spoke words of power and the

[42:05] these words I could live by and that

[42:08] meant he was my teacher.

[42:10] >> Yeah.

[42:11] >> Great. Great.

[42:13] Um, okay. Okay. So, there was this like

[42:16] process of getting to know him through

[42:18] his lectures and through some meetings

[42:21] and through a correspondence which which

[42:23] went on a long way, didn't it? Um

[42:26] >> and uh you trained for nation and then

[42:28] you got ordained.

[42:29] >> It did. I did.

[42:30] >> Um [laughter]

[42:33] uh and and I wasing what what inspired

[42:36] you particularly to maybe move to Torok

[42:39] and take up responsibilities there? How

[42:42] did that how did that sort of come? It

[42:43] is a bit on you at the moment, but it's

[42:45] relating to Bante and the movie. Okay.

[42:48] >> I think um

[42:50] yeah, I was working in Winter's

[42:51] Publications, which was based in the

[42:53] women's community in Glasgow at the

[42:55] time. That was in 1993

[42:57] 94. And um I was beginning to realize I

[43:01] probably was going to step out of that.

[43:04] And at that time around that time my

[43:07] father got I got a diagnosis of um um

[43:11] high level you know very um what's it

[43:14] basically cancer of the liver which was

[43:16] only secondary so they never even

[43:17] bothered finding the primary site

[43:19] because once you got cancer of the liver

[43:20] you're on your way out basically

[43:22] >> and um I went down and lived with him in

[43:26] Cuden while he went through that process

[43:29] and uh I just lived with a man who was

[43:33] 56 years

[43:35] living out the last three months of his

[43:36] life. Mostly I was doing a lot of the

[43:38] care although I have got sisters and a

[43:41] mother who was they weren't living you

[43:43] know with we weren't living with him but

[43:45] um uh and I lived a very focused life in

[43:51] a way you could say I lived a very

[43:53] immersive life around this guy

[43:56] >> and um the effect that that was having

[43:59] on him and it was beginning to affect

[44:01] his brain and um just just being in this

[44:05] world of

[44:08] Uh yeah, a very immersive three months

[44:10] or so while he moved through having the

[44:14] first maybe yeah first sort of diagnosis

[44:17] to dying

[44:19] and um I could see by then I could see

[44:23] my dharma life was really starting to

[44:25] add up to something. Maybe all of us in

[44:29] our dharma lives need it tested

[44:30] somewhere and I'd lived my life always

[44:33] in tree ratner movements community

[44:34] center whatever maybe you do need to

[44:37] eventually step out into a much

[44:39] universal piece of like life like death

[44:43] and see it there and then you start

[44:45] realizing it's now adding up

[44:48] >> and that made me think I need a life

[44:52] that's got much stronger focus and then

[44:56] I when I got back to Glasgow which is

[44:58] where I was living um somebody phoned me

[45:00] from Taroka and said would you come to

[45:02] Taroka for nine months [laughter] and

[45:05] >> yes I do

[45:06] >> but then my Kalan Richard said you just

[45:08] got back from being in Cudon for three

[45:10] or four months why would you go to

[45:11] Tarokus I said okay well not now

[45:15] >> and then during that next few months I

[45:17] read a few books one of them was Brian

[45:18] Keenan's evil cradling

[45:21] >> and uh there he also speaks words of

[45:23] power in the same sort of way which I

[45:26] won't quote but he did he does and there

[45:29] he but he will he does say each person

[45:32] needs to choose their freedom when it

[45:34] comes to not do so would be belittle

[45:37] others I had a very strong loyalty to

[45:40] Glasgow been I've got friends that were

[45:42] 10 years 11 years alongside me and when

[45:46] Taroka asked me the second time will you

[45:49] come to Taroka I said yes

[45:51] >> and it was me stepping into maybe a more

[45:55] objective situation or going forth maybe

[45:57] bits of going forth in that moment

[45:59] >> riding on that experience of my father's

[46:01] death and then Brian Kean's words of

[46:04] power as well

[46:05] >> and um as soon as I got there I thought

[46:09] I think I maybe I'm going to end up

[46:11] chair in this place which was

[46:13] >> five years later

[46:16] >> uh and then um yeah I just lived at

[46:19] Taroka and I met Banty a few times

[46:21] during that time he came to Tarlo

[46:23] sometimes on a women's mre conveners

[46:25] meeting and I met him during that time

[46:27] >> but I think I just could feel I was a

[46:30] very broad associative

[46:33] extroverted woman and I needed a strong

[46:36] container and

[46:37] >> a retreat center is a strong container

[46:39] like a man's death is as well.

[46:41] >> Yeah.

[46:42] >> And did you feel you know in some ways

[46:44] that you know living at Toroka was

[46:46] helping to spread Bante's vision of the

[46:48] dharma or

[46:49] >> or was it not quite like that?

[46:51] >> Uh yeah it is like that. Um, I was also

[46:55] just a young woman running her own

[46:57] business. Actually, [laughter] I was

[46:58] making money. I was creating programs. I

[47:01] was just being very creative with a

[47:03] bunch of women that were all right

[47:05] there. You know, we're all doing

[47:06] something

[47:07] >> and um

[47:09] >> you know, it was probably possibly the

[47:11] only women's retreat center in the world

[47:13] sort of stuff. Yes. And uh we were

[47:17] teaching that armor strongly and um I

[47:22] was also trying to teach it at a level

[47:23] which we were moving out of the 70s and

[47:25] moving into a more sophisticated level

[47:28] of teaching than dharma which because it

[47:30] was just much more available.

[47:32] >> Uh but you know I I it's surprising that

[47:35] you can look everything up now online.

[47:36] It's so easy. But I just go to the

[47:38] library, you know, someone would say,

[47:40] "We need to give a talk on X, you know,

[47:44] um, why is simplicity important?" And I

[47:46] would be going through an index of all

[47:48] the seminars and looking up the word

[47:50] simplicity and then going through every

[47:52] single seminar to find what he says

[47:56] about simplicity and then

[47:58] >> finding the words of power in that and

[48:00] giving the talk or something.

[48:01] >> And what what did I think? I think I

[48:04] thought of myself as well particularly

[48:07] making the dharma available to women and

[48:10] seeing it being taught by women which

[48:12] was also quite radical

[48:14] >> and um uh and that was his vision.

[48:17] [clears throat] Yes.

[48:18] >> I was certainly serving him. Um when I

[48:22] eventually was working closer to him

[48:24] more in person, I felt we were both

[48:26] serving a project together

[48:28] >> and he and when I asked him once

[48:31] [clears throat]

[48:32] what were you saving were you serving

[48:34] Ambbeck when you were doing all that

[48:35] work in India or and he said no sandy I

[48:38] was serving the Buddha like that was all

[48:40] very simple to him and I think

[48:42] >> I also [clears throat] felt that as

[48:44] well.

[48:45] >> That helps a bit.

[48:47] >> Okay. So a big chunk of your life was at

[48:49] Tara Loka and then there was another

[48:51] change wasn't there how you were asked

[48:52] to move to Adishana. So can can you tell

[48:54] us the story about that?

[48:57] >> That's a [laughter] horrible story.

[48:59] >> Yeah. So I just started running my first

[49:02] order retreat at Toroca

[49:05] and um and it was so it starts on

[49:09] Friday. Then Saturday morning

[49:12] uh I got a phone somebody came to me and

[49:14] said sundi

[49:16] um Pammy has called has called from

[49:19] Adistana. She says Sabbouti is going to

[49:22] come and visit and I knew exactly what

[49:26] that was what exactly what that was. I

[49:28] just knew that. And uh and I said, "I'm

[49:31] running a retreat paramei." She said,

[49:34] "He's on his way. [laughter]

[49:36] He got lost on the on the way." And so

[49:39] it took him hours and hours and hours

[49:40] and he had to call in and see somebody

[49:42] else first. But he arrived at something

[49:44] like past 5 or 6 7:00 in the evening. It

[49:47] was all crazy. And

[49:49] >> And was Subuti the chair of the

[49:52] preceptor college then or was that?

[49:54] >> No, Darati was.

[49:55] >> Okay. I think I think that's what it

[49:58] was. Uh I think he was just he was on a

[50:02] mission

[50:03] >> and uh he was the man for the job kind

[50:05] of thing and uh he arrived with all his

[50:09] subuti energy and just saying and we sat

[50:11] in the room while I'm trying to run this

[50:13] other retreat and he just said will you

[50:15] come to Adistana and be chair

[50:18] >> and um I just didn't know how to think

[50:22] about that actually. Um,

[50:25] and maybe I don't know. It's like I

[50:30] don't know. I just didn't know how to

[50:31] think about it. And um, I thought

[50:36] well the thought of suddenly leaving

[50:37] Tarloa felt very strong and also I

[50:41] didn't know what I was stepping into and

[50:42] it was a I knew it was going to be a big

[50:44] project and I was getting old I felt and

[50:48] um,

[50:49] >> uh, the request was too strong. sort of

[50:52] too strong.

[50:53] >> Yeah.

[50:54] >> Um

[50:56] and then I just said I'll just have to

[50:58] think about it. And I know that when he

[50:59] when he got back to Parammy, he said,

[51:01] I've had a very beautiful conversation

[51:02] with Sadandi and uh I don't know how

[51:05] she's going to I'm I don't know how

[51:07] she's going to make the decision, but

[51:09] I'm sure she will. And that's what

[51:11] happened.

[51:12] >> I did speak to my mother about it as you

[51:14] do.

[51:15] >> And what did your mom say? blind moms.

[51:18] She said, "Well,

[51:21] um, that situation will need a strong

[51:23] woman, and you're a strong woman."

[51:25] She said, "You're getting old now. Do

[51:28] you really want that a [clears throat]

[51:28] level of stress? You'll have to think

[51:30] about that." [snorts] And she said, "Um,

[51:35] you're good at making decisions. You'll

[51:37] work out what to do."

[51:39] >> And [snorts] then,

[51:40] >> sage advice from [laughter] mom.

[51:42] [clears throat]

[51:42] >> She's a good woman. And uh yeah anyway I

[51:46] made the decision.

[51:47] >> Yeah.

[51:50] >> And then you know when you moved to

[51:53] Adashana um um you know then you you

[51:57] really started you know getting to know

[51:59] Bante in a more personal way. Can you

[52:02] talk us through the journey of that a

[52:03] little bit?

[52:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. I think when I moved there

[52:05] we didn't know each other really. I

[52:07] hadn't written to him for a long time

[52:09] and

[52:11] I think he felt a bit wary of me. I was

[52:13] quite polite. You say I hold things a

[52:14] bit lightly and sometimes got this humor

[52:16] and he wasn't sure about that and I was

[52:19] [laughter]

[52:20] bit nervous of him myself. So we both

[52:23] had slightly different styles and we

[52:24] weren't we weren't sure about each other

[52:26] and yet we were in this you know it's

[52:29] important in some ways that we did have

[52:31] some sort of rapport

[52:34] and uh we met a few times just sort of

[52:37] as I was at Adistana and becoming chair

[52:40] and uh we talked about things a bit but

[52:43] then Paramatha had this lovely idea that

[52:46] um there could be an exhibition of

[52:48] Bante's um objects through his uh life

[52:52] because he was going to turn 90 I think

[52:54] that year and um yeah it would have been

[52:57] that year and we'd have an exhibition in

[53:00] the library of his objects like

[53:01] different objects that belong to

[53:03] different stages of his life and I would

[53:05] interview him a bit like that you know

[53:07] those has anyone heard those uh history

[53:09] of the whole world in 100 objects if

[53:12] you've heard that forget that guy from

[53:13] the British Museum did it yeah

[53:15] >> and he'd been listening to that paramura

[53:17] and him had been listening to those

[53:18] interviews or that those recordings and

[53:21] he thought maybe I could do something

[53:22] like that which was a good it was a very

[53:24] good request. So suddenly I was with a

[53:28] very old person like nearly 90 asking

[53:31] them about their life which was perfect

[53:34] >> and um he chose the objects for each

[53:38] decade and he taught me through them all

[53:41] a bit and then I would go away and I'd

[53:43] create a list of questions like you

[53:45] would have done for me probably and then

[53:47] come and sit with him do a dress

[53:49] rehearsal if you like. talk them through

[53:51] and then a few days later we do the

[53:53] whole interview right the way through

[53:55] >> uh him just just sitting there quietly

[53:58] and just replying very beautifully and

[54:01] uh it was it was lovely because that

[54:03] there you're really getting to know

[54:05] someone's life and we had some charming

[54:08] moments where you didn't always that

[54:10] they didn't always get included in the

[54:12] actual they didn't they got edited out

[54:15] of the public recordings if you see what

[54:18] I mean

[54:19] >> I remember there was one where there was

[54:21] this little um uh a sort of um little

[54:25] jacket, green jacket, silk jacket from I

[54:28] think China or Burma or somewhere like

[54:30] that where his uncle had lived and this

[54:32] had been given to the family and this

[54:35] was one of the articles. Yeah. So I was

[54:37] saying at one point I was saying to him

[54:39] so what he he said I said do you

[54:41] remember this from your childhood? This

[54:43] was an article that got rescued or you

[54:46] know carried through from the war. He

[54:48] said, "Yes, I do remember it very well."

[54:49] And I said, "Um, and did you always like

[54:52] it?" He said, "Yes." He said, "I used to

[54:53] dress up in it and stand in front of the

[54:55] mirror and think how handsome I looked."

[54:57] [laughter]

[54:58] I don't think that I don't think that's

[54:59] on record anyway, you know. and he was

[55:02] just very charming around some things,

[55:04] you know. And um

[55:08] uh I think I remember this one moment

[55:10] where I said to him, "What was it like?

[55:13] What was it like, Banty, to go from this

[55:15] very energetic, lively, playful young

[55:18] man to a man, a boy who couldn't get out

[55:21] of bed because he'd been given this this

[55:23] condition which meant he couldn't, you

[55:25] know, he couldn't have any uh what was

[55:28] the word? high quick movements or

[55:30] anything like and I said, "How did you

[55:32] manage that?" He said, "I think I was

[55:34] drugged."

[55:36] [laughter]

[55:37] She probably was actually.

[55:40] So, you know, there was these lovely

[55:42] moments. Yes. And um

[55:45] there was this Yeah. And then I remember

[55:47] going to see him where um he'd um he

[55:50] there was one decade which was all about

[55:52] him traveling

[55:53] >> and he went all over the place. He was

[55:55] setting up, you know, different centers

[55:56] like Australia, New Zealand, um,

[55:58] Amsterdam, wherever. He was going a lot

[56:01] of different places, America. It was a

[56:03] bit of a later decade maybe. and um he

[56:05] went to New Zealand and he'd written

[56:07] this poem called the greenstone

[56:10] >> and um I'd gone into I'd gone to do the

[56:12] interview with him and he said I want

[56:15] you to and I'd gone there and the clocks

[56:17] had just changed and just changed and so

[56:20] suddenly what was supposed to be I

[56:22] always met him at half past 9 in the

[56:24] morning and it's really half past 8 in

[56:26] the morning if you if you me it was

[56:27] Sunday morning it the clocks had changed

[56:30] it wasn't half past 8 it wasn't half

[56:31] past 9 in the morning it was half past 8

[56:33] so it was quite early and we were still

[56:36] you know in my mind it was still quite

[56:38] early and he said now soni I want us to

[56:40] rehearse there's this poem called the

[56:42] greenstone I want us to rehearse this I

[56:45] said it's half past 9 in the morning

[56:48] >> it's really half past 8 surely I've

[56:50] [clears throat] got to rehearse a poem

[56:51] with you he said yes I said what are you

[56:54] like [laughter]

[56:55] and he said and I off I go it's a green

[56:57] stone this poem and he said I think it

[57:01] needs to be more dramatic I'm

[57:02] >> [laughter]

[57:03] >> It's half past 9 in the morning on a

[57:05] Sunday morning like that. He said, "I

[57:07] know. We'll just have to work work

[57:08] together more often or something."

[57:10] Anyway, I do this we do this interview

[57:12] about the Greenstone and him going to

[57:13] New Zealand. And then months later after

[57:16] all the interviews have been done, the

[57:18] exhibition's happened. I go to see him

[57:21] and he said, "I want to give you a

[57:22] present

[57:23] >> for the interviews." And uh I want to

[57:26] give you a present that wasn't given to

[57:27] me personally, but which I bought

[57:29] myself. and he handed me a piece of he

[57:32] handed me the greenstone,

[57:34] >> this big piece of greenstone about as

[57:35] big as my hand

[57:37] >> and he handed to me and I know this is a

[57:39] real this is a ritual object in of New

[57:42] Zealand. It's just really handed from

[57:44] one chief to another

[57:46] >> and uh it was just very moving to

[57:49] receive it. I mean, I've now since now

[57:52] handed it over to Adistana and said,

[57:54] "This from one chair to another, from

[57:57] the founder to the chair to the next

[57:59] chair, this is now the Adistana emblem."

[58:03] >> And what's so beautiful about stone and

[58:05] the green stone is it's a very open

[58:07] emblem. It's not Buddhist. It's just a

[58:11] stone. This stone these these stones

[58:13] have myths that belong to outside

[58:15] Buddhism, if you like. And Adistana

[58:18] needs to be a really open

[58:21] context, you know, based in principles

[58:24] but not kind of prescriptive. And the

[58:26] greenstone is the emblem of that.

[58:31] >> Interviews.

[58:33] >> Go on. Tell me

[58:34] >> wonderful little anecdotes within all of

[58:36] that. Um after we did that the retreat

[58:38] together um I became aware of the

[58:40] interviews you did around some of his

[58:42] poems and the bodhic sappers reply after

[58:44] that retreat. I listened to that and

[58:46] found that very engaging. Could you tell

[58:47] us a little bit about that sequence as

[58:49] well?

[58:49] >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So then Vant had this

[58:51] idea that I would interview him about

[58:53] some of his poems. I didn't know his

[58:54] poems very well and uh he we asked

[58:58] Papadra what poems should we interview?

[59:00] What what should I do with these? And he

[59:02] gave us a few um lists a little list but

[59:05] then Banty also started choosing them

[59:07] himself and that again is a very

[59:09] intimate space to go into and talk to

[59:12] somebody about their poetry. Uh I

[59:14] remember the one about the family

[59:16] reunion which is about a dream where he

[59:18] meets different members of his family

[59:21] and again talking very movingly about

[59:23] his different members of his family

[59:25] >> and um and also some very unusual ones

[59:29] like Advent which is about somebody

[59:32] sitting in a house and waiting for a

[59:35] stranger to knock at the door and just

[59:37] what that means in terms of spiritual

[59:39] life and him drawing that out.

[59:41] uh but then we did this classic poem the

[59:44] the bodhicattas reply

[59:48] >> it's a very strong poem and each verse

[59:50] is um about sort of images from India

[59:55] mostly from his life in India so um

[59:59] prostitutes he was teaching prostitutes

[1:00:01] in India un uh yeah he's teaching

[1:00:03] prostitutes in India and um um dates you

[1:00:07] know living very roughly very poorly his

[1:00:10] contact with beg we talked a bit about

[1:00:12] whether he well whether he'd actually

[1:00:15] had an altruistic dimension to his life

[1:00:18] and his spiritual life

[1:00:20] >> wanting to serve other people in that

[1:00:21] sort of way that he's describing in the

[1:00:23] bodhis sappa's reply

[1:00:25] >> and he said no not until I met Ambbeeka

[1:00:27] I didn't really have that until then it

[1:00:29] was only then that I began to realize

[1:00:30] that that aspect of my life became more

[1:00:33] sort of enriched

[1:00:35] >> and um the poem the images are very

[1:00:39] strong and I had to keep reading ing

[1:00:40] them out and then he would talk about

[1:00:42] it. But I was in this very poetic sort

[1:00:45] of world, these images of India and it

[1:00:48] was almost too strong and it was just

[1:00:50] that over and over again just trying to

[1:00:52] go into those images and uh him talking

[1:00:55] about them and I remember right at the

[1:00:58] end the last verse where the bodhic

[1:01:01] sappa he's asking over and over again

[1:01:02] what would you say in this situation to

[1:01:04] like to the bodhic sappa so what would

[1:01:06] you say like here right here with all

[1:01:08] this poverty with this pain what would

[1:01:11] you say to this situation situation.

[1:01:13] What would you say to this situation

[1:01:14] where people are just living like

[1:01:15] machines and just creating things for

[1:01:18] rich people to buy? What would you say

[1:01:19] to them?

[1:01:21] >> And then the bodice says, I would say

[1:01:23] nothing. And then there's this verse.

[1:01:25] And I was trying I read it and then I

[1:01:29] think I'm crying slightly and I'm trying

[1:01:31] to think of questions that I could ask

[1:01:33] him. And I know that the question I

[1:01:36] don't have the big enough perspective on

[1:01:39] this verse to ask the right questions.

[1:01:42] Sometimes in the med in the interviews I

[1:01:45] was big enough to find quite tricky

[1:01:47] questions for him and I would ask him a

[1:01:49] question that he knew was slightly left

[1:01:51] of field and he'd always go

[1:01:53] [laughter]

[1:01:56] but I didn't have the questions there. I

[1:01:58] was not big enough for it. And he was he

[1:02:02] was replying and I couldn't he was

[1:02:04] trying to describe to me what the verse

[1:02:06] says. And I think it's very simple in a

[1:02:08] way, but in another way I didn't have

[1:02:11] the

[1:02:13] big bigness to be able to ask him

[1:02:16] another question that would take us even

[1:02:18] further into the material, which is what

[1:02:19] I would have loved to have done. And I

[1:02:21] felt in that moment, I'm limited here. I

[1:02:25] wished I was bigger in this moment.

[1:02:27] Yeah.

[1:02:28] Yeah. And there was but there was a

[1:02:30] lovely moment when when we started the

[1:02:32] interview I said to him I'm gonna have

[1:02:34] to ask you about and is becker bodhis

[1:02:37] sappa

[1:02:39] and that's I think that would be good to

[1:02:42] answer and he said all right then

[1:02:44] suddenly [laughter]

[1:02:46] and uh and then we I hadn't asked him

[1:02:49] that question and then right at the end

[1:02:50] I said is there anything else you want

[1:02:52] to say and he said this beautiful thing

[1:02:54] he said um

[1:02:56] well some people would say that I'm Dr.

[1:02:59] Ambbeck is um is a bodhic sappa and

[1:03:02] certainly when you see what he's done in

[1:03:05] India he has he has made a difference to

[1:03:09] those people's lives he has done what

[1:03:10] the bodhic sappa says he should do he

[1:03:14] was the one with vision and he was the

[1:03:17] one that that could give the vision and

[1:03:19] therefore give them the courage to do

[1:03:20] what they needed to do so in that

[1:03:23] respect he is a bodhic sappa he is he

[1:03:25] was like the bodhic sappa and he

[1:03:29] It just goes to show what one person,

[1:03:32] what one what one man, one woman can do.

[1:03:36] Not everybody's at such high caliber as

[1:03:38] Dr. Hanbecka, but nevertheless, it does

[1:03:42] go to show what one individual can do in

[1:03:45] this world. Yeah. And make a change.

[1:03:47] >> So beautiful.

[1:03:49] >> And he's just he just he's just there's

[1:03:51] no ums and he's not stopping and

[1:03:53] starting. He's just word perfect all the

[1:03:55] way through it.

[1:03:59] Okay. Um, so I've got a few questions

[1:04:02] left and um, but maybe we can just open

[1:04:06] up and just see if there's any any

[1:04:07] questions from anybody in the room. Any,

[1:04:09] you know, quite short, simple, direct,

[1:04:11] real questions if there are any.

[1:04:15] >> Yeah.

[1:04:15] >> Where were these places? So Glasgow, but

[1:04:18] the places [snorts] that you were based

[1:04:20] I didn't recognize.

[1:04:21] >> No, fair enough. So you're asking where

[1:04:23] I was based in my life.

[1:04:26] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I was

[1:04:27] originally I was in London going to art

[1:04:29] school in London. Then I moved to

[1:04:30] Glasgow to live with this guy who's

[1:04:32] getting involved with the Buddhist

[1:04:33] center there. So Glasgow is way up

[1:04:35] north. Yeah.

[1:04:36] >> And then I moved to Talloko which is

[1:04:38] quite near Crew. It's like 15 miles

[1:04:40] outside Crew. Do you know where that is?

[1:04:42] >> It sounds English.

[1:04:44] >> Not. Yeah. No, it's not not the in the

[1:04:46] name Talloka is a Buddhist name. So

[1:04:49] you've got Tara which is the a green um

[1:04:51] bodhis sat but in a female form and loca

[1:04:55] means the realm of so the realm of this

[1:04:58] sata tara female form so just and the

[1:05:02] reason why it's just outside crew is

[1:05:04] because we were buying the women's wing

[1:05:06] was buying a property that where they

[1:05:08] felt they needed a lot of transport um

[1:05:10] access to get people to the retreat

[1:05:13] center so crews ideally placed so that

[1:05:16] people from Invenesse or Brighton

[1:05:18] can arrive pretty much within the same

[1:05:20] amount of time. Yeah.

[1:05:21] >> Transport link is always important.

[1:05:23] >> Exactly. And then I got I got asked to

[1:05:26] move to Adistana and that's it's about

[1:05:28] um it's about 50 miles south of

[1:05:32] Birmingham and slightly towards the

[1:05:34] west. So it's sort of between sort of

[1:05:37] between Manchester and Bristol almost if

[1:05:39] you see what I mean like that sort of

[1:05:40] line and then quite uh we're about about

[1:05:43] 40 miles north of Bristol. Is that

[1:05:46] giving you a kind of Yeah. Right near

[1:05:47] the Mulvin. So actually when you're

[1:05:50] standing in the land of Adistana, we've

[1:05:52] got 26 acres there and you you've got

[1:05:55] the hills around you.

[1:05:58] >> Yeah.

[1:06:00] >> Um are your interviews with Sandra on

[1:06:02] free audio?

[1:06:03] >> Yes. So all the interviews are on free

[1:06:06] audio. Of course you only get the edited

[1:06:07] versions mostly. Yeah.

[1:06:10] And uh if you just go on free a studio,

[1:06:12] I don't always know how to find it, but

[1:06:14] basically if you put into the search

[1:06:15] engine decades, you'll get a whole

[1:06:18] website which is about the decades

[1:06:20] interviews and if you get if you put in

[1:06:22] poetry interviews maybe with Sanger or

[1:06:24] just poetry interviews, you'll get a

[1:06:26] list of different poetry interviews like

[1:06:28] with um Maitra bandu but the top one I

[1:06:30] think will be the Sangar ones. Yeah.

[1:06:33] >> Great.

[1:06:35] Pete,

[1:06:37] >> you said if you'd been bigger then you

[1:06:40] would have asked him a different

[1:06:42] question.

[1:06:42] >> Yeah.

[1:06:43] >> About the poem. Do you know what

[1:06:44] questions you would ask him now?

[1:06:49] >> That's a good one. [laughter]

[1:06:54] >> It's always got to be

[1:06:55] >> in my community, [laughter]

[1:06:58] >> but I haven't set him up.

[1:07:00] [clears throat]

[1:07:03] I mean actually since he's died there's

[1:07:07] been lots of moments where people have

[1:07:08] said to me did you ever ask Bounty about

[1:07:10] this and I think I was so

[1:07:14] I didn't quite realize the opportunity I

[1:07:16] had I was focused on just the work we

[1:07:18] were doing this the project we were

[1:07:19] sharing like the poetry interview I

[1:07:21] wasn't thinking

[1:07:23] people are going to wonder why I didn't

[1:07:25] ask him this which sometimes I wish I

[1:07:27] had done

[1:07:29] um

[1:07:31] Maybe what I would have said was maybe I

[1:07:33] would have said something like

[1:07:36] well I did try and he he says I would

[1:07:40] the bodhis would say I would say nothing

[1:07:42] but oh what is it give me the last verse

[1:07:45] something like um but become like them

[1:07:48] until I become just um between custom

[1:07:51] and circumstance and I think

[1:07:53] >> I think I still didn't understand are

[1:07:55] you trying to say the bos get small like

[1:07:57] everybody else like you you amplify you

[1:07:59] um you have so much empathy sympathy for

[1:08:01] them, you become like them. He does try

[1:08:03] and explain it. I think he's trying to

[1:08:06] say something like the bodhicatta just

[1:08:09] is functioning alongside those people or

[1:08:12] you're just functioning with people and

[1:08:15] you're different and you're just willing

[1:08:18] to do what they're doing or something.

[1:08:20] He's trying to say something there and I

[1:08:22] just couldn't do it. What would I say

[1:08:23] now? I think I'd have to sit down and

[1:08:25] think about it. But probably what I'd

[1:08:27] think is I don't really know how to talk

[1:08:31] to him about this verse and is there

[1:08:33] someone that I think might know the

[1:08:35] answer to that and I'd probably go and

[1:08:36] find them, but I'd realize I didn't know

[1:08:39] enough to do it and I didn't know that

[1:08:41] before I did the interview that that was

[1:08:43] the case. Maybe that would have been the

[1:08:45] best thing that I could have done. Does

[1:08:46] that answer the question? Answers it a

[1:08:48] roundabout way.

[1:08:49] >> Yeah. I haven't got a nice neat strap,

[1:08:52] I'm afraid.

[1:08:54] Okay. Maybe maybe one one or two more.

[1:08:58] >> Yeah.

[1:08:59] >> Oh, yeah. I was going to ask the same

[1:09:01] thing.

[1:09:01] >> You can ask the same thing.

[1:09:02] >> I guess like if you met, what would you

[1:09:05] ask him?

[1:09:07] >> Like if you could just have one

[1:09:09] question. I could have [clears throat]

[1:09:11] one question. Maybe what I'd say is,

[1:09:14] Banty, I'm only allowed one question.

[1:09:17] [snorts]

[1:09:18] What question should I ask? [laughter]

[1:09:22] and he would go

[1:09:25] well sudden and [clears throat]

[1:09:28] um

[1:09:34] I don't know God your mind goes in so

[1:09:36] many different directions.

[1:09:39] Um it would have I probably have to

[1:09:41] think about it. I mean, there was one

[1:09:43] time where I stepped into the when we

[1:09:46] had this routine. I would go I'd go

[1:09:47] through the door. I go, "Hi, Banty. It's

[1:09:49] Sadin Andy." Because he didn't have good

[1:09:51] eyesight. So, I often would announce

[1:09:53] myself, although he always knew I was

[1:09:54] coming. I'd go over to him. We'd shake

[1:09:57] hands. He'd go, "Cold hands." Because

[1:09:59] he's living in boiling hot temperatures

[1:10:01] and I was coming in from the cold. He

[1:10:04] cold hands. I'd sit down. And then he

[1:10:07] said once, [clears throat] "We grow

[1:10:09] more. We grow more as plants than people

[1:10:13] realize.

[1:10:15] And people afterwards have asked me what

[1:10:17] do you think he was meaning when he said

[1:10:19] that? And I said I think he's meaning

[1:10:21] you can look at yourself in terms of

[1:10:23] scandas. You can deconstruct yourself.

[1:10:25] You can work out all these different

[1:10:27] things in your mind. But that's only

[1:10:29] part of the story. It only takes you in

[1:10:30] a certain direction. If you think of

[1:10:32] yourself as a plant, how would you grow

[1:10:35] then?

[1:10:36] >> And it's to do with nourishing yourself.

[1:10:38] and it's very broad and well-rounded and

[1:10:41] you're going to

[1:10:43] grow beautifully and in your own

[1:10:45] particular way. And uh I think I

[1:10:48] probably I would say again is that

[1:10:51] really true? And he would probably

[1:10:54] reinforce it because I think he does he

[1:10:58] he saw people much more rounded than

[1:11:00] that than than the kind of

[1:11:01] deconstruction sort of model that we

[1:11:03] have in the dharma as well and that was

[1:11:05] very much an emphasis that was going on

[1:11:07] in the movement at that time.

[1:11:09] >> There's probably something around that.

[1:11:11] >> Yeah.

[1:11:13] >> Great. Thank you. Okay. So um

[1:11:17] just to move us on a bit now. So in a

[1:11:19] way you were you you you were living at

[1:11:21] Adishana while Bante was there for quite

[1:11:24] a few years weren't you? And um and then

[1:11:26] you were you were with him in in the

[1:11:28] final year of his life as well.

[1:11:30] >> So can you just talk a little bit about

[1:11:32] that period in in Bante's life?

[1:11:34] >> Yeah, he was very happy. He used to say

[1:11:37] that that period of his life had been

[1:11:38] one of his happiest. Um, I think he just

[1:11:42] got more and more confidence and relaxed

[1:11:45] about his life at Adistan even though

[1:11:46] his life his his world got his his

[1:11:49] eyesight got worse and his just his

[1:11:51] health generally got worse.

[1:11:53] >> Um,

[1:11:56] but he was seeing loads of people.

[1:11:58] >> How how old was he then in

[1:11:59] >> So he died in um he died in 198 uh sorry

[1:12:04] 2018.

[1:12:06] So he was 93

[1:12:07] >> 93

[1:12:08] >> 93 in that last year. He was 93

[1:12:12] >> and he was seeing

[1:12:15] um he was sometimes seeing 100 people a

[1:12:18] week

[1:12:19] >> actually something like that

[1:12:21] >> and uh I remember if we ran like um the

[1:12:24] eight guidelines or the six guidelines

[1:12:25] retreat which was just this women's GFR

[1:12:28] retreat at Adistana and there'd be like

[1:12:29] 80 women he was seeing three women a day

[1:12:33] >> coming through that retreat you know

[1:12:35] they would just write up on the notice

[1:12:36] board they wanted to see bante and he

[1:12:37] would list them and then they will be

[1:12:39] seeing things like that. He really he

[1:12:41] was really putting himself out there if

[1:12:43] you like

[1:12:44] >> and Adistana provided a lot of access to

[1:12:48] him.

[1:12:49] >> You it was a big mixed um situation. And

[1:12:51] there were a lot of different you the

[1:12:53] order was coming and then you had you

[1:12:55] know women coming on the GFR retreat or

[1:12:57] some people coming on um their um SA

[1:13:00] retreats like the winter retreats and

[1:13:01] things like that and at the LBC

[1:13:04] >> big range of people and then people were

[1:13:06] coming and and seeing him sometimes you

[1:13:08] know just a lot of times making and then

[1:13:10] making appointments to see him.

[1:13:12] >> So he was just really putting himself

[1:13:14] out there

[1:13:15] >> knowing in a way that it was that these

[1:13:18] were going to be last sort of

[1:13:19] opportunities.

[1:13:20] >> Yeah.

[1:13:21] And then um about a month um let's see

[1:13:28] about six weeks before he died we ran at

[1:13:31] a styler we ran um the EBU conference.

[1:13:34] So we we ran um an event just for

[1:13:37] European Buddhist teachers and um they

[1:13:41] would regularly meet like maybe every

[1:13:43] six months or maybe every year and at

[1:13:45] this time it was going to be at

[1:13:46] Adistana. So he really he met me and he

[1:13:49] said I want this to go really well

[1:13:51] >> and I really want them to see what

[1:13:53] Adistana is and see what the movement

[1:13:55] is.

[1:13:56] >> And so we had about maybe 25 30

[1:14:00] different Buddhist teachers coming in

[1:14:01] from different movements for over all

[1:14:03] over Britain and Europe come to stay at

[1:14:06] Adistana for about five days something

[1:14:08] like that have their own conference and

[1:14:11] about a third of them met um Bante

[1:14:13] during that time and have gifts for him

[1:14:15] as well. and um just got a window into

[1:14:19] the tree ratner world. They were saying

[1:14:21] things like we're now beginning to

[1:14:23] understand what tree ratner is doing,

[1:14:24] what it is

[1:14:25] >> through at this contact here.

[1:14:28] >> And um again he attended some of that

[1:14:31] conference but he met loads of them and

[1:14:34] I remember when I went to see him

[1:14:35] afterwards he said well Sania please you

[1:14:37] did that really well. Thank you so much

[1:14:39] for doing such a good event. And I said,

[1:14:41] "No, I didn't do it. The operations team

[1:14:43] did it."

[1:14:44] >> But I said, "You you're a big spin

[1:14:46] doctor. You're the one out there putting

[1:14:48] out there, you know, receiving gifts and

[1:14:50] making contact and stuff like that." In

[1:14:52] fact, actually, I did bring

[1:14:54] >> actually I bought um Munisha sent me

[1:14:57] comments from that event and I'll read

[1:14:59] you one of them. This is very lovely.

[1:15:02] It's from um the Norwegian

[1:15:04] who was he

[1:15:07] president of the Norwegian Buddhist

[1:15:08] Union said meeting Bante was the

[1:15:10] highlight of his stay that he'd met him

[1:15:13] in the 1970s but never since and that he

[1:15:16] would remember this second meeting for

[1:15:17] the rest of his life. He described him

[1:15:19] as a towering pioneer in Western

[1:15:22] Buddhism.

[1:15:24] >> So that's the sort of stuff that was

[1:15:25] going on.

[1:15:26] >> Yeah.

[1:15:28] Uh so he met them and then in the last

[1:15:32] in the last month of his life not we

[1:15:34] didn't know know this at the time we

[1:15:37] were running a a 4-week residential

[1:15:39] course for order members that we'd

[1:15:41] invited particularly because they were

[1:15:43] taking more responsibility in the

[1:15:44] movement worldwide so India America

[1:15:49] Australia New Zealand um Spanish

[1:15:51] speaking and um

[1:15:54] they've been they were living and

[1:15:55] working they were living at Adistano and

[1:15:57] we were going going through a whole

[1:15:58] training program with them and looking

[1:16:00] at the dharma and he was meeting them a

[1:16:02] bit and I was trying to arrange a

[1:16:03] meeting with them with him to talk about

[1:16:05] ambeeka and uh yeah we were h exchanging

[1:16:10] emails very regularly like sometimes

[1:16:12] within a couple of hours of each other

[1:16:13] because he would arrange a meeting and

[1:16:15] then he wouldn't show up

[1:16:17] >> or he'd say I think I can do this

[1:16:19] meeting with them and then he said no

[1:16:21] actually I'm not feeling so good and

[1:16:24] I've got some very lovely emails which I

[1:16:25] was going to read if that's a good

[1:16:28] moment.

[1:16:30] >> Just these little moments where

[1:16:36] [clears throat]

[1:16:38] >> so like sat so this is October the 13th

[1:16:41] and he dies on October the 30th. Yeah.

[1:16:45] Dear Sadnandi, thank you for your note

[1:16:46] and your suggestions regarding tomorrow.

[1:16:48] I should be very happy to meet the order

[1:16:50] members on the international course and

[1:16:51] to be interviewed by you. 4:30 does not

[1:16:54] really suit me though. Could we say 445

[1:16:56] classic? [laughter]

[1:17:00] You could ask me some questions relating

[1:17:02] to Dr. Ambbecker and the mass conversion

[1:17:04] and then go on to some other topics you

[1:17:06] have mentioned. I would not want to uh

[1:17:08] answer questions from the floor so to

[1:17:10] speak but let me know what you think

[1:17:12] with love sanga and then I say yes bante

[1:17:15] 445 lecture hall fine

[1:17:18] and then he doesn't show up and I write

[1:17:20] to him again I'm really sorry did you

[1:17:22] weren't very well

[1:17:24] and he says yes and he writes back to me

[1:17:26] again a few hours later dear son Andy

[1:17:28] thank you for your email I just received

[1:17:30] I'm really sorry that I had to let you

[1:17:32] and the others down on Sunday the truth

[1:17:34] is that after lunch I went to bed as

[1:17:36] usual and woke up after only an hour

[1:17:38] feeling quite unwell in a strange sort

[1:17:40] of way. I will tell you more when we

[1:17:43] meet. By all means, let us have the

[1:17:44] interview if you can find a time that

[1:17:46] suits us both.

[1:17:49] So then we carry on trying to sort this

[1:17:50] out a bit and trying to arrange a

[1:17:52] meeting between us.

[1:17:56] Uh on the 22nd of October writes to me,

[1:17:58] "Many thanks for yesterday's email.

[1:18:00] Tomorrow, Tuesday, will suit me very

[1:18:02] well if it suits you." So now we're just

[1:18:04] down to me meeting him. He's not going

[1:18:06] to meet the group. This morning I had a

[1:18:08] visit from a beautiful black cat.

[1:18:10] Unfortunately, decided not to stay. He

[1:18:13] loves cats. Looking forward to seeing

[1:18:14] you and with love. Sangra and I write.

[1:18:17] Great. See you tomorrow at 12. Okay. So,

[1:18:20] I go to see him. That's my last time

[1:18:22] with him. So, it's the t I go to see him

[1:18:25] on the Tuesday. Is it

[1:18:28] >> I go to see him? Yeah. Tuesday at 12.

[1:18:31] The Tuesday. That's the 23rd. I go to

[1:18:33] see him on the 23rd of October

[1:18:36] and um

[1:18:40] and I say and he's living off yogurt and

[1:18:43] Jaffa cakes [laughter]

[1:18:46] and uh he says I'm just eating a few

[1:18:49] things and we have a cup of tea and have

[1:18:51] a Jaffa cake each and um and uh he said

[1:18:54] for some reason I write off my I just

[1:18:56] can't eat food and I think by then the

[1:18:58] all the helpers were all thinking this

[1:19:00] is to do with some sort of stomach

[1:19:02] thing, but it turns out to be heart

[1:19:04] failure, which I think as soon as a

[1:19:06] doctor or nurse sees him, they say this

[1:19:09] is heart failure. And um but we don't

[1:19:12] know that. And then on the sun, uh I

[1:19:15] think maybe the Saturday, Sunday or the

[1:19:17] Monday maybe, he gets a message. I'm

[1:19:19] sitting in the dining room and a

[1:19:21] messenger comes up to me. I think

[1:19:23] somebody one of his assistants comes to

[1:19:25] me and says, "An ambulance is going to

[1:19:27] arrive and and he's in a wheelchair.

[1:19:30] revealed him out. We He's going to go

[1:19:33] into hospital. We don't want this news

[1:19:34] to go anywhere else yet because until we

[1:19:37] get a proper an official announcement,

[1:19:39] nothing can be said. And what I regret

[1:19:44] is that I didn't go out in that moment

[1:19:47] and say goodbye.

[1:19:49] >> And the reason this is that so I'm just

[1:19:51] going to say this to you guys because

[1:19:53] the reason is because when I first went

[1:19:55] to Adistana, I saw him in the courtyard

[1:19:58] one day and I went up to him and said,

[1:19:59] "Hello." blah blah blah and he sort of

[1:20:02] felt a bit affronted by me doing that to

[1:20:04] him and he'd written to me at some point

[1:20:07] written to somebody saying oh suddenly

[1:20:09] he sort of came and found me in the

[1:20:11] courtyard which was a bit much or

[1:20:12] something so I think that's blocked me

[1:20:18] and a moment where you just think oh

[1:20:20] there'll be another moment but I'll just

[1:20:22] say to you maybe there isn't another

[1:20:24] moment and in that moment there wasn't

[1:20:25] another moment

[1:20:27] >> so he then got wheeled into the

[1:20:29] ambulance

[1:20:29] And then he died. I think he died the

[1:20:32] next day. And Paramatha and Yashad were

[1:20:34] with him. Went with him whole night and

[1:20:37] chanted mantras and uh and then um yeah

[1:20:42] suddenly

[1:20:43] he died. Yeah.

[1:20:46] >> And then I mean it's just really

[1:20:48] naturally just everybody at Adistana

[1:20:49] just goes to the shrine room. Shall I

[1:20:51] talk a bit more about this with this

[1:20:52] work? And um the international course is

[1:20:57] there and we the international we're

[1:20:59] with we're we're all involved in

[1:21:00] teaching them and stuff and everything

[1:21:02] then just falls apart. systems fall

[1:21:04] apart or from now on we're just in the

[1:21:06] shrine room and we there is somebody in

[1:21:09] the Adistana shrine room chanting

[1:21:11] certain mantras from then on every every

[1:21:14] hour

[1:21:15] >> until the funeral that's and everyone

[1:21:18] just signs up on the rotor and that goes

[1:21:20] on all the way through for the next

[1:21:22] period of time

[1:21:23] >> and his body arrives back a few days

[1:21:25] later and I get told at the beginning of

[1:21:28] the day your chair you need to welcome

[1:21:30] the body back I'm like yeah yeah

[1:21:32] whatever

[1:21:33] And then I realized some sometime during

[1:21:35] the day, oh, this is a big thing

[1:21:37] >> and film cameras are arriving and

[1:21:41] this is going to be a ritual space and

[1:21:44] um it's a cold November day and I stand

[1:21:48] in the courtyard when the coffin or it

[1:21:50] was not a coffin. It's just a it's just

[1:21:52] like a hurst arrives but it's just like

[1:21:54] a it's just a platform

[1:21:57] with a blanket over a body. That's what

[1:21:59] it is. It's very raw. And um it's come

[1:22:03] straight from the morg or the hospital

[1:22:06] bed. I don't know where I suppose it's

[1:22:07] come from. And these guys in these

[1:22:11] robes, his friends step through the

[1:22:16] courtyard,

[1:22:17] walk through the courtyard and pick up

[1:22:20] this platform.

[1:22:22] It's just so moving to see friends carry

[1:22:27] this body of their friend out of it just

[1:22:30] it's you just don't see that. You know

[1:22:32] what I mean?

[1:22:33] >> And they carry it down to this smaller

[1:22:36] shrine room and then from then on that's

[1:22:38] where we're also then

[1:22:41] uh sitting around him and stuff like

[1:22:43] that. Yeah,

[1:22:46] >> I'm just thinking that and yeah. Uh is

[1:22:49] there anything else? Maybe. No, maybe

[1:22:52] that's it. That's just

[1:22:54] And oh, I know what I was going to say.

[1:22:56] The men's order weekend, which is

[1:22:58] happening in a few days time now. Yeah.

[1:23:00] >> Well, of course, then a few days later

[1:23:03] after the body's been bought, the men's

[1:23:04] order weekend is happening.

[1:23:07] >> And we watch man you men go to the

[1:23:12] burial mound and dig the grave. Again,

[1:23:15] it's archetypal.

[1:23:16] >> Watching people with spades dig a hole,

[1:23:20] >> wheelbarrows,

[1:23:22] spades, you know, it's not dig, it's not

[1:23:24] a digger, it's not electronic, you know

[1:23:26] what I mean?

[1:23:27] >> Wheelbarrowing soil out and then um and

[1:23:31] knowing the body is going to be lifted

[1:23:32] into that later.

[1:23:35] >> You can ask me about the funeral. Do you

[1:23:36] want me to keep talking or what?

[1:23:38] >> Um I don't know. [laughter] It's very

[1:23:41] I'm really with you. [clears throat]

[1:23:43] Um

[1:23:45] I was just going to ask one more

[1:23:46] question and um which is maybe takes us

[1:23:49] in a slightly different direction.

[1:23:52] >> But in a way this is a bit more of an

[1:23:53] open question. So I just wanted to um

[1:23:56] you know is there anything about your

[1:23:58] connection your friendship with Bante

[1:24:00] >> uh that you haven't said that you'd like

[1:24:02] to say to close. You know maybe

[1:24:05] something that's come to mind since he's

[1:24:06] died for example but it doesn't have to

[1:24:08] be that. I think um partly what's come

[1:24:12] to mind is what a privilege those

[1:24:14] interviews were

[1:24:15] >> and also people come up to me when

[1:24:17] they've heard them and it's the first

[1:24:19] time that they've had they've seen him

[1:24:21] in real relationship and rapport with

[1:24:23] somebody because we built up a rapport

[1:24:25] together

[1:24:26] >> and uh it shows Sangra in a slightly

[1:24:29] different light. Yeah. you see him with

[1:24:32] humor or you know you see different

[1:24:35] sides of him I think in those interviews

[1:24:36] especially as we get build we build up

[1:24:38] our relationship

[1:24:41] >> um

[1:24:43] and [clears throat] I think possibly in

[1:24:47] hindsight I didn't use him as well as I

[1:24:49] could have done as a teacher for myself

[1:24:51] personally because I was always

[1:24:53] >> in a way in service to the project which

[1:24:56] was Adistana and his life in him

[1:24:59] >> and there was lovely moment moment

[1:25:01] together where I realized yeah we were

[1:25:02] we were both in service

[1:25:04] >> and he was serving me and I was serving

[1:25:06] him because we were both serving

[1:25:08] something else

[1:25:09] >> and that was uh very touching to realize

[1:25:11] that and the fact that he'd given me

[1:25:12] this stone

[1:25:14] >> um but he did there's this love there is

[1:25:17] this lovely memory where um well what

[1:25:20] maybe a very small thing which was I

[1:25:22] found this very good baker and he baked

[1:25:25] Danish pastries and he baked something

[1:25:27] called Chelsea buns which some of you

[1:25:29] might know and I would buy a Chelsea

[1:25:32] barn and I put it in to the his

[1:25:34] Sangrish's pigeon hole and he knew it

[1:25:38] was come from me and then Paramtha one

[1:25:40] day bought a Chelsea barn and put it in

[1:25:43] his pigeon hole and Banty and said I've

[1:25:45] left you a Chelsea bar and Banty didn't

[1:25:47] like it [laughter]

[1:25:48] and I said but Paramatha you need to get

[1:25:50] it from a special bakery he said no

[1:25:53] sandy it needs to come from you

[1:25:55] [laughter]

[1:25:56] and I every now and then I realized we

[1:25:58] had a very particular relationship ship

[1:25:59] and I maybe sometimes I didn't realize

[1:26:02] that at the time

[1:26:03] >> and he did once I did say to him shall

[1:26:05] we go out because it's my birthday shall

[1:26:07] we go out one day

[1:26:09] >> and he said no I I don't think we would

[1:26:11] go out but you come around and see me

[1:26:12] and I took a took cake there and then

[1:26:16] his assistant said go in and see him

[1:26:18] you're going to be surprised

[1:26:21] I said really I go into his living room

[1:26:24] this um living room where some of you

[1:26:26] have been there you know what that looks

[1:26:27] like yet he wasn't there so that was a

[1:26:29] surprise. [laughter]

[1:26:31] That was a surprise. He was in his

[1:26:33] conservatory, right? And I go into the

[1:26:37] conservatory and he's sitting at a table

[1:26:40] with a tablecloth with cups of with cups

[1:26:44] on it. He said, "We're in a cafe." He

[1:26:46] said, [laughter]

[1:26:48] "We are in a cafe. I didn't realize

[1:26:51] we're in a cafe. We're in the

[1:26:52] conservatory cafe." I sit down. waiter

[1:26:56] arrives, ask [laughter] takes her order,

[1:27:00] >> coffee, cake, tea, whatever, rhubos tea

[1:27:02] or whatever. We order a pot and uh and

[1:27:05] then halfway through he said, "I need

[1:27:07] more tea, son, and I said okay." He's

[1:27:10] got a very strong he had very strong

[1:27:11] sense of etiquette.

[1:27:13] >> And um and I said, "I'll have to go and

[1:27:15] ask the waiter." He said, "But you

[1:27:17] shouldn't have to. It was your

[1:27:18] birthday." And I said, "I know, but I'm

[1:27:20] the one that can go and ask the waiter."

[1:27:21] So I had to go into the kitchen and say,

[1:27:23] "Can we have more tea?" and then and

[1:27:24] then I go and sit down and then the more

[1:27:26] tea arrives or something like that. But

[1:27:28] there was this lovely moment where he

[1:27:29] was totally enrolled. Do you know what I

[1:27:31] mean? He was absolutely in play mode in

[1:27:34] the sense that

[1:27:35] >> it was like a child. You know when you

[1:27:37] know children just say

[1:27:39] >> when that happen a tea party. He really

[1:27:41] was in a tea party. I just couldn't

[1:27:43] believe that he could just go into it

[1:27:46] like that. Yeah. Just right there.

[1:27:47] Beautiful.

[1:27:50] >> Thank you very much. Thank you very very

[1:27:52] much.

[1:27:53] >> [applause]

[1:27:58] [applause]

[1:28:07] [applause]

[1:28:12] >> Yeah, I'm so pleased that you came when

[1:28:14] you spoke here. I I I sort of knew that

[1:28:16] you'd be able to talk about Bent in a

[1:28:18] very very personal and engaging way, and

[1:28:19] you really have done it. So, thank you

[1:28:21] very very much. I feel as though we've

[1:28:23] all been with you as you've unfolded

[1:28:25] little

[1:28:26] >> stories and vignettes and images and so

[1:28:29] yeah, thank you very very much. And we

[1:28:30] just got a very small gift for you to

[1:28:32] thank you as well. So let's give her

[1:28:34] another round of applause. [applause]

[1:28:45] >> [applause]

[1:28:48] >> Well, if I if if he was still alive now,

[1:28:50] when I got back to Adistana, he I would

[1:28:52] go to him and I'd say, "Guess what I've

[1:28:53] been doing?" [laughter] And he would

[1:28:55] say, "Uh, and how was it at the London

[1:28:58] Buddhist Center?" And I'd tell him a bit

[1:29:00] more. And he'd say, "And who was

[1:29:02] leading?" And I said, "My my Roger." And

[1:29:04] how is my [laughter]

[1:29:06] how's he doing now? Like that. He would

[1:29:07] ask me these very detailed questions and

[1:29:09] he would really know what was going on

[1:29:11] >> actually right up to the last moment and

[1:29:14] even then he still like a few days

[1:29:16] before he dies he's still really trying

[1:29:18] to serve the movement. Yeah, he would

[1:29:20] know everything was going on.

[1:29:22] >> He didn't even need email sometimes.

[1:29:24] >> It's terrifying.

[1:29:26] >> Anyway, thank you.

[1:29:27] >> So, we'll go through now and of course

[1:29:29] there's tea and cake. So, enjoy. And

[1:29:31] then we're going to have a ritual and

[1:29:33] before the ritual we'll hear the bante's

[1:29:36] poem the bodhic.

[1:29:41] >> Thank you so much. That was so good.

[1:29:43] >> A thank you very much.

[1:29:57] It's quite nice doing it in format where

[1:29:59] you're not you're not talking and you

[1:30:01] know you don't have to prepare but you

[1:30:03] brought some things but you get drawn

[1:30:05] out things come out which you wouldn't

[1:30:08] have said.

[1:30:09] >> Yeah.

[1:30:10] >> Yeah. And it's just a nice format you

[1:30:12] know here.

[1:30:13] >> Hi.

[1:30:13] >> Well said.

[1:30:14] >> Thank you very much. It was great having

[1:30:16] you there in the front row. [laughter]

[1:30:18] Yeah. Such a disciple. Such a good

[1:30:21] disciple.

[1:30:24] >> Yeah. I know. I mean, I look at you and

[1:30:25] I think, well, you could easily be

[1:30:27] sitting here. [laughter]

[1:30:29] >> Yeah. Lovely.

[1:30:35] >> Yeah. [clears throat] You should be

[1:30:36] sitting here one [laughter] day.

[1:30:40] >> Anyway, thank you very much.

[1:30:41] >> Thank you.

[1:30:43] Good.

[1:30:54] That was so lovely.

[1:30:55] >> Yeah, really lovely.

[1:31:22] Thank you.

[1:31:29] >> Yeah.

[1:31:37] Yes.

[1:31:39] Good.

[1:31:59] Wow.

[1:32:10] That was great.

[1:32:11] >> Was it?

[1:32:11] >> Yeah, it was.

[1:32:31] >> [clears throat]

[1:32:33] >> Please seriously noisy. The door closes.

[1:32:37] I mean,

[1:32:39] anyone

[1:32:44] crazy.

[1:32:54] They spend more money.

[1:33:02] >> Yes.

[1:33:26] I'm tired of

[1:34:06] Hello

[1:34:08] friend. What are we going to

[1:34:22] do? [laughter]

[1:34:43] I guess

[1:35:15] Please

[1:35:57] Um,

[1:36:35] Okay.

[1:36:36] >> Yeah. I'm fine. Thank you very much.

[1:37:15] Oh yeah.

[1:37:51] Oh yeah, it's famous.

[1:38:21] You know,

[1:38:48] Yeah,

[1:39:11] there

[1:40:37] >> [clears throat and cough]

[1:40:38] >> What we use today is these lines.

[1:41:08] video.

[1:41:51] Oh yes.

[1:41:58] Oh, it's been done. It's been done. And

[1:42:00] the candles have been lit.

[1:42:03] >> Fantastic.

[1:42:04] >> What What can I do?

[1:42:13] >> Okay, great stuff.

[1:42:29] How long do you think you need? I'm just

[1:42:32] thinking about when I do the

[1:42:33] announcement.

[1:42:35] >> Oh, uh, how long do we need? Not very

[1:42:38] long. I mean,

[1:42:43] >> probably

[1:42:45] 20 minutes past 9 is the latest. Oh, I

[1:42:48] see. Yeah. Well, f that's fine. If I do

[1:42:49] it in five minutes or so.

[1:42:51] >> Five minutes. Yeah.

[1:42:52] >> Cuz it will take me five few minutes to

[1:42:53] do it. I'll just do a short one.

[1:42:55] >> Okay.

[1:42:56] >> And then that will leave you 20 minutes.

[1:42:58] Shall I do it soon?

[1:43:00] >> It won't take longer than 20 minutes.

[1:43:02] It's a very cut down is it pa? It's

[1:43:05] shortest pu I think. [laughter]

[1:43:12] >> Okay. People have said lots of nice

[1:43:15] things about your talk last week.

[1:43:17] >> A really lovely.

[1:43:19] >> Yeah.

[1:43:20] >> Yeah, they are. Thank you. I'm really

[1:43:22] >> Yeah, they are. Thank you for that. It's

[1:43:24] don't quite know what to do with that,

[1:43:25] but it's it's positive, you know.

[1:43:28] >> It's positive.

[1:43:29] >> Yeah.

[1:43:31] >> Yeah.

[1:43:33] You sort of let it in like then you got

[1:43:36] credit for when somebody says [laughter]

[1:43:46] >> it's kind of new newish. I've only done

[1:43:49] that was my fourth one.

[1:43:51] >> That's pretty good.

[1:43:54] >> I think it was probably

[1:43:55] >> Yeah.

[1:43:56] >> Well, it it went down well and that's

[1:43:58] that's the that's the right. I'll leave

[1:44:00] you.

[1:44:00] >> That's fine. Thank you.

[1:44:15] >> Did you get tea?

[1:44:41] both Mary

[1:44:45] thinking.

[1:45:15] Tickle straight.

[1:45:44] Good evening everyone.

[1:45:50] Just

[1:45:58] earlier on when we started the group

[1:46:00] meeting I was yawning

[1:46:02] >> and I thought I don't have any and

[1:46:04] actually I realized I didn't have

[1:46:09] any

[1:46:14] question.

[1:46:30] Okay. So, I just want to say

[1:46:35] of course all this is possible because

[1:46:42] the center and all our other centers

[1:46:45] that you might have visited

[1:46:48] and this global

[1:46:50] worldwide

[1:46:54] essential.

[1:47:16] But part of that kind of transformation

[1:47:19] process

[1:47:21] making

[1:47:39] return

[1:47:45] like

[1:47:52] world.

[1:48:02] And so we connect

[1:48:22] You don't have to

[1:48:40] attention to actually next

[1:48:52] know

[1:48:56] more and more

[1:49:05] I'm not

[1:49:14] It's free book online.

[1:49:21] >> Yeah.

[1:49:25] So

[1:49:27] number

[1:49:39] 10.

[1:50:03] It's a great [snorts]

[1:50:12] many times.

[1:50:22] Extraordinary man.

[1:50:43] really

[1:50:50] connection.

[1:51:07] Very

[1:51:17] very cool.

[1:52:08] All

[1:52:20] right.

[1:52:43] This is

[1:53:09] >> [clears throat]

[1:53:18] [clears throat]

[1:53:36] >> Okay. [clears throat]

[1:53:48] Hello. Uh so my name is Pio Vadra and

[1:53:51] I'm going to complete the evening and uh

[1:53:57] basically what's going to happen is I'm

[1:54:00] going to read out the poem that was

[1:54:02] mentioned uh earlier the bodhic sapper's

[1:54:05] reply

[1:54:06] and then we're going to have a threefold

[1:54:10] pujo and after the first section

[1:54:15] um

[1:54:16] David is going to no diabra.

[1:54:21] Is that right? Diabadra is going to read

[1:54:23] the shaki mantra.

[1:54:27] >> Yeah.

[1:54:28] >> Is that right? Or

[1:54:29] >> we was it [clears throat]

[1:54:32] >> no it's not

[1:54:34] doing

[1:54:36] >> the

[1:54:37] >> better. So can you do

[1:54:38] >> I will do the shaky

[1:54:39] >> shaky mantra. Thank you. And then

[1:54:45] >> we're we're slick. [laughter]

[1:54:49] >> We don't make this up as we go along

[1:54:52] proper. Um and then at the end of the

[1:54:56] will uh end the evening with great

[1:54:58] tarantra. Everybody happy? Good.

[1:55:04] All right. So let's just sit quietly for

[1:55:05] a few moments and

[1:55:11] When it's still I should begin

[1:55:39] The bodhicappa's reply.

[1:55:44] What will you say to those whose lives

[1:55:46] spring up between custom and

[1:55:48] circumstance?

[1:55:50] as weeds between wet stones whose lives

[1:55:55] corruptly flower warped from the

[1:55:58] beautiful

[1:55:59] refu and sediment their means of

[1:56:02] sustenance.

[1:56:04] What will you say to them?

[1:56:09] That woman night after night must

[1:56:14] sell her body for bread. The boy with

[1:56:18] welloiled hair and the incidents, the

[1:56:22] innocents dead in his face

[1:56:25] must lubricate the obscene bodies of

[1:56:28] gross old men and both must be merry all

[1:56:32] day

[1:56:34] for thinking would make them mad.

[1:56:39] What will you say to them?

[1:56:43] Those dullied men must tend machines

[1:56:47] till they become machines or till they

[1:56:51] are cogs in the giant wheel of industry

[1:56:56] producing the clothes that can they

[1:56:59] cannot wear and the cellophane luxury

[1:57:02] goods they can never hope to buy. What

[1:57:06] will you say to them?

[1:57:13] of these dim shadows which through the

[1:57:17] pale gold top tropic down

[1:57:21] from the outcast village

[1:57:24] flirt balancing on their heads baskets

[1:57:28] to bear away garbage in excrement

[1:57:32] hugging the wall for a fear

[1:57:35] of the scorn

[1:57:37] and their fellow men.

[1:57:40] What will you say to them?

[1:57:44] and wasted lives that litter the streets

[1:57:47] of modern cities. Souls like butt ends

[1:57:50] tossed in the gutter

[1:57:53] and trampled on.

[1:57:56] Human refuge dumped at the crossroads

[1:57:59] where civilization and civilization meet

[1:58:03] to breed the unif.

[1:58:07] What will you say to them?

[1:58:11] I shall say nothing but only fold in

[1:58:14] compassion's arms their frailty till it

[1:58:17] becomes strong with my strength their

[1:58:22] limbs bright with my beauty their souls

[1:58:25] with my wisdom luminous

[1:58:30] until I have become like them

[1:58:33] a seed between wet stones

[1:58:36] of custom and circumstance.

[1:59:02] >> [music]

[1:59:05] [bell]

[1:59:07] >> Three fold push.

[1:59:10] Opening reverence. [bell]

[1:59:13] We reverence the Buddha.

[1:59:15] >> We reverence the Buddha.

[1:59:17] >> The perfectly enlightened one.

[1:59:20] >> The perfectly enlightened one.

[1:59:22] >> The shower of the way.

[1:59:24] >> The shower of the way.

[1:59:26] >> We reverence the dharma.

[1:59:28] >> We reverence the dharma.

[1:59:30] >> The teaching of the Buddha.

[1:59:32] >> The teaching of the Buddha.

[1:59:33] >> Which leads from darkness to light.

[1:59:36] which leads from darkness to light.

[1:59:39] >> We reverence the SA

[1:59:41] >> We reverence the SA

[1:59:43] >> the fellowship of the Buddha's

[1:59:44] disciples.

[1:59:46] >> The fellowship of the Buddha's disciples

[1:59:49] >> that inspires and guides

[1:59:51] >> that inspires and guides.

[2:00:01] Oh money

[2:00:05] sh

[2:00:11] Oh

[2:00:13] [singing]

[2:00:19] SW.

[2:00:25] [singing]

[2:00:31] [singing]

[2:00:33] [chanting]

[2:00:37] [singing]

[2:00:46] Oh,

[2:00:50] [singing] moon

[2:00:55] sh.

[2:00:57] [singing]

[2:01:04] [singing]

[2:01:06] [music]

[2:01:11] [singing]

[2:01:16] Oh,

[2:01:18] [singing]

[2:01:22] sh.

[2:01:24] [singing]

[2:01:29] Oh, moon [singing]

[2:01:35] sh.

[2:01:43] Oh, [singing]

[2:01:45] moon

[2:01:49] sh.

[2:01:52] [music]

[2:01:54] [chanting and singing]

[2:01:57] Oh,

[2:02:03] sh.

[2:02:05] [singing]

[2:02:10] Oh, moon [singing]

[2:02:16] sh.

[2:02:19] [singing]

[2:02:25] [singing]

[2:02:32] [singing]

[2:02:37] Oh [chanting] my [singing] moon

[2:02:43] sh

[2:02:52] [singing]

[2:02:59] [singing]

[2:03:05] Oh

[2:03:07] [singing]

[2:03:08] >> [music]

[2:03:11] >> Sh. [chanting]

[2:03:12] [singing]

[2:03:19] [music]

[2:03:20] [singing and chanting]

[2:03:32] Oh, [music]

[2:03:34] [singing] moon

[2:03:38] sh

[2:03:46] Oh, moon [singing and music]

[2:03:52] shaky.

[2:03:55] >> [singing]

[2:03:56] >> SW.

[2:04:00] Oh my [singing and chanting]

[2:04:06] sh

[2:04:09] [singing and music]

[2:04:15] [singing]

[2:04:16] [music]

[2:04:28] Oh, [singing]

[2:04:32] [chanting]

[2:04:35] Back

[2:04:44] [singing]

[2:04:48] shi.

[2:04:59] [singing]

[2:05:04] peace.

[2:05:10] Oh,

[2:05:12] moon [singing]

[2:05:16] sh.

[2:05:25] [singing]

[2:05:31] [singing]

[2:05:37] Oh honey [singing and music]

[2:05:43] shoomy.

[2:05:52] [singing]

[2:06:26] >> [music]

[2:06:28] >> reverence to the three jaws.

[2:06:31] We reverence the Buddha.

[2:06:33] >> We reverence the Buddha. and aspire to

[2:06:36] follow him.

[2:06:37] >> and aspire to follow him.

[2:06:40] >> The Buddha was born as we are born.

[2:06:42] >> The Buddha was born as we are born.

[2:06:45] >> What the Buddha overcame, we

[2:06:47] >> What the Buddha overame,

[2:06:49] >> we too can overcome.

[2:06:51] >> We too can overcome.

[2:06:53] >> What the Buddha attained,

[2:06:55] >> What the Buddha attained,

[2:06:57] >> we too can attain.

[2:06:59] >> We too can attain.

[2:07:01] >> We reverence the Dharma. We reverence

[2:07:04] the dharma

[2:07:05] >> and aspire to follow it

[2:07:07] >> and aspire to follow it

[2:07:09] >> with body, speech, and mind.

[2:07:12] >> with body, speech, and mind.

[2:07:15] >> Until the end.

[2:07:16] >> Until the end.

[2:07:18] >> The truth in all its aspects.

[2:07:20] >> The truth in all its aspects.

[2:07:22] >> The path in all its stages.

[2:07:25] >> The path in all its stages.

[2:07:27] >> We aspire to study.

[2:07:29] >> We aspire to study.

[2:07:31] >> Practice. Practice,

[2:07:33] >> realize,

[2:07:34] >> realize.

[2:07:35] >> We reverence the SA.

[2:07:37] >> We reverence the SA

[2:07:39] >> and aspire to follow it.

[2:07:42] >> And aspire to follow it.

[2:07:44] >> The fellowship of those who tread the

[2:07:46] way.

[2:07:47] >> The fellowship of those who tread the

[2:07:49] way.

[2:07:49] >> As one by one,

[2:07:51] >> as one by one,

[2:07:53] >> we make our own commitment.

[2:07:55] >> We make our own commitments.

[2:07:57] >> An ever widening circle. An ever

[2:08:00] widening circle.

[2:08:02] >> The SA grows.

[2:08:03] >> The SA grows.

[2:08:09] [music]

[2:08:12] >> Offerings to the Buddha.

[2:08:14] >> Reverencing the Buddha.

[2:08:16] >> Reverencing the Buddha.

[2:08:18] >> We offer flowers.

[2:08:19] >> We offer flowers.

[2:08:21] >> Flowers that today are fresh and sweetly

[2:08:23] blooming.

[2:08:24] >> Flowers that today are fresh and sweetly

[2:08:28] blooming. Flowers that tomorrow

[2:08:30] >> Flowers that tomorrow

[2:08:32] >> are faded and fallen

[2:08:34] >> are faded and fallen.

[2:08:36] >> Our bodies too

[2:08:38] >> Our bodies too

[2:08:40] >> like flowers

[2:08:41] >> like flowers

[2:08:42] >> will pass away.

[2:08:44] >> will pass away.

[2:08:46] >> Reverencing the Buddha

[2:08:48] >> reverencing the Buddha.

[2:08:50] >> We offer candles.

[2:08:51] >> We offer candles

[2:08:53] >> to him who who to him who is the light.

[2:08:56] To him who is the light,

[2:08:58] >> we offer light.

[2:08:59] >> We offer light.

[2:09:01] >> From his greater lamp, a lesser lamp we

[2:09:04] light within us.

[2:09:05] >> From his greater lamp, a lesser lamp we

[2:09:08] light within us.

[2:09:10] >> The lamp of Bodhi.

[2:09:12] >> The lamp of Bodhi

[2:09:14] >> shining within our hearts.

[2:09:16] >> shining within our hearts.

[2:09:18] >> Reverencing the Buddha.

[2:09:20] >> Reverencing the Buddha.

[2:09:22] >> We offer incense.

[2:09:24] >> We offer incense. Incense whose

[2:09:26] fragrance pervades the air.

[2:09:29] >> Incense whose fragrance pervades the

[2:09:31] air.

[2:09:32] >> The fragrance of the perfect life.

[2:09:34] >> The fragrance of the perfect life.

[2:09:37] >> Sweeter than incense.

[2:09:38] >> Sweeter than incense.

[2:09:40] >> Spreads in all directions

[2:09:42] >> spreads in all directions

[2:09:44] >> throughout the world.

[2:09:46] >> throughout the world.

[2:09:52] >> [singing]

[2:09:53] >> TW.

[2:09:58] Boom. Tot. To

[2:10:02] raise

[2:10:06] [singing]

[2:10:07] to

[2:10:09] race

[2:10:13] to

[2:10:16] race

[2:10:21] [singing] to TW

[2:10:27] [chanting]

[2:10:28] [singing]

[2:10:35] [singing]

[2:10:44] [singing]

[2:10:50] [chanting]

[2:10:51] To

[2:10:53] raise [singing]

[2:10:58] to tah

[2:11:04] [singing]

[2:11:06] tow

[2:11:12] [singing and chanting]

[2:11:20] [singing]

[2:11:20] To

[2:11:23] raise

[2:11:28] to [singing]

[2:11:30] raise

[2:11:35] to [singing]

[2:11:36] tah

[2:11:41] [singing]

[2:11:49] [music and singing]

[2:11:50] to tah

[2:11:56] [singing]

[2:11:57] to

[2:12:00] raise

[2:12:04] [singing and music]

[2:12:05] to

[2:12:11] [singing]

[2:12:18] Om

[2:12:19] [singing] to [music]

[2:12:25] om

[2:12:36] to

[2:12:42] [singing and music]

[2:12:49] to

[2:12:51] raise

[2:12:58] Fore.

[2:13:23] [music]

[2:13:28] >> [bell]

[2:13:32] [music]

[2:13:49] >> So that's the end of the evening. Uh

[2:13:52] thank you for coming. Thank you to Nandy

[2:13:56] for uh yeah something very special. Very

[2:14:00] special.

[2:14:02] Um,

[2:14:04] if when you came in you put something in

[2:14:06] the bowl, thank you very much. That

[2:14:08] helps pay for all the biscuits and the

[2:14:10] tea and things. Uh, if you didn't and

[2:14:14] would like to, then

[2:14:17] well, we can keep the place running.

[2:14:22] It does make a difference.

[2:14:25] Uh, but again, thank you very much for

[2:14:28] coming and hope to see you all again.

[2:14:30] Thank you. Thank you.

[2:14:44] [clears throat]

[2:14:56] >> So relax compared to the other glasses.

[2:15:00] I'm super

[2:15:19] teaching everywhere

[2:15:22] at the moment I am

[2:15:29] also see

[2:15:41] Yeah.

[2:15:59] Oh yeah.

[2:16:38] You should join the team. Yes, she

[2:16:40] joined

London Buddhist Centre
ArtistLondon Buddhist Centre

A Buddhist centre in Bethnal Green, East London, that teaches meditation and Buddhism in ways relevant to contemporary life, rooted in a living spiritual community.

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Sangharakshita, also called Urgyen Sangharakshita, is the founder of the Triratna Buddhist Order and Community, as described in this London Buddhist Centre session. The speaker calls him the founder of the order and the teacher of the session's host. The video recalls him through the experiences of Saddhanandi, a member of the order.
Saddhanandi said she did not particularly want to get involved with Buddhism or meditation at first. A man in her life was getting deeply involved and suggested she visit a Buddhist centre, where she was taught to meditate. She later moved to Glasgow, where she listened to many of Sangharakshita's lectures on tape and took notes.
She found that meeting him individually felt stilted and awkward, and she concluded that this approach would not work for her. She decided instead to get to know him through his talks, seminars and writings, which became the way she developed their connection.
The session describes Taraloka as a Triratna retreat centre for women. Saddhanandi lived there for around 20 years after moving in 1994 and was chair for the final 13 of those years, according to the introduction given in the video.
Mindfulness of breathing is a basic Buddhist meditation in which attention rests on the breath as it moves in and out of the body. In this session the leader asked participants to notice their current state and then rest with the breath as the centre of their experience. It is the foundational practice used across many Buddhist classes, including the weekly Wednesday class at the London Buddhist Centre.
Adhisthana is a Triratna centre in the Midlands where, according to the session, Sangharakshita's body is buried and his books are collected. A large community of men and women lives there. The interviewer described it as a central place for the movement.
In Saddhanandi's account, she wrote directly to Sangharakshita asking for ordination, and he replied by postcard that order members in her area would give feedback on when the time might be right. This suggests that the request goes to the founder while the local order community helps discern readiness, though the video does not describe the full formal process.

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