Transcript
[0:00] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[0:05] SARAH GERHARDT: I started out
growing up on the beaches,
[0:08] in part in Hawaii, and being
left to myself to figure out
[0:12] how to get out of the water.
[0:13] And I survived, so that's good.
[0:17] When I wanted to start
surfing bigger waves,
[0:19] I did encounter the problem of
not being able to hold my breath
[0:23] and of getting almost
to that panic state.
[0:27] So it was really important
to do breath-hold training.
[0:32] So I needed to train my
body to not freak out,
[0:35] to not go into
that-- like if you
[0:37] hold your breath
for a long time,
[0:38] your hands can start to tingle.
[0:40] Your vision starts to get
black from the outside.
[0:45] There can be a lot of anxiety.
[0:47] We have a natural
response to breathe
[0:50] when our CO2 levels get high.
[0:51] But that's trainable.
[0:53] So I can train myself to
be comfortable in the chaos
[0:58] and the discomfort.
[1:00] But I realized that I have
a lot of breathing practices
[1:05] for movement.
[1:06] So I have breathing
practices when I swim.
[1:08] I have breathing practices
before I go surf big waves.
[1:11] I just didn't have a practice
for late for an appointment,
[1:15] and I'm in my car in a traffic.
[1:17] Or I didn't have a practice
for when I'm sitting here,
[1:20] and I'm nervous talking to you.
[1:21] So I have all these amazing
breathwork practices
[1:24] that are really
important for the things
[1:26] that I like to do physically.
[1:28] But I'd like to incorporate
practices for just sitting here.
[1:32] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[1:42] DACHER KELTNER: Welcome to
The Science of Happiness.
[1:44] I'm Dacher Keltner.
[1:45] This week is our first
episode in a series
[1:48] on science-backed ways
to breathe away anxiety.
[1:53] We're starting with a
controlled breathing technique
[1:55] called cyclic sighing.
[1:57] It's a simple and powerful way
to reduce anxiety and promote
[2:00] relaxation, and it's quite
different from the type
[2:03] of breathing our guest today,
professional surfer Sarah
[2:06] Gerhardt, is accustomed to.
[2:08] Sarah is the first woman
to surf the Mavericks
[2:11] waves in Northern
California, where
[2:13] swells reach up to 60 feet.
[2:16] When she's not
navigating the waves,
[2:18] she's a chemistry
professor in Santa Cruz.
[2:21] While Sarah finds calm in
the ocean, life on land
[2:24] can stress her out.
[2:25] So for our show, Sarah tried out
cyclic sighing for a few weeks
[2:28] to help her relax.
[2:30] We'll hear from Sarah and also
from David Spiegel, the Stanford
[2:34] scientist who helped
discover the benefits
[2:36] of doing this practice
for five minutes a day.
[2:38] DAVID SPIEGEL: We were
trying to see whether people,
[2:41] by just practicing a brief
daily breathwork exercise,
[2:46] could demonstrate some
significant improvement in mood
[2:50] and physical
arousal and tension.
[2:53] DACHER KELTNER: How and
why to tricyclic sighing
[2:55] after these messages
from our sponsors.
[2:57] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[3:06] SPEAKER 1: The WIRED
newsroom is known
[3:08] for award-winning reporting on
how technology shapes our world.
[3:12] On WIRED's Uncanny Valley,
we take that curiosity even
[3:14] further.
[3:15] Each week,
journalists from WIRED
[3:17] break down the biggest
stories in tech
[3:18] while speaking directly
with the people building,
[3:20] challenging, and
reshaping the future.
[3:23] Is the AI boom sustainable?
[3:25] How do you protect
your privacy in an age
[3:26] of constant surveillance?
[3:28] Uncanny Valley
tackles the questions
[3:30] driving today's tech debates and
lighting up your group chats.
[3:33] Listen to new episodes
every Thursday
[3:35] wherever you get your podcasts.
[3:37] SPEAKER 2: Support
for this podcast
[3:40] comes from The Birth
of a Parent podcast.
[3:43] When a baby is born,
a parent is born too.
[3:46] But what actually happens to
us when we become parents?
[3:50] In Birth of a Parent,
host Michael Fagelson
[3:53] talks with leading scientists,
writers, and thinkers,
[3:56] from research showing
how pregnancy reshapes
[3:59] the brain to the discovery
that fatherhood can lower
[4:02] testosterone.
[4:03] What if becoming a parent is
one of life's most profound
[4:06] and least understood
developmental stages?
[4:10] Find Birth of a Parent
wherever you get your podcasts.
[4:13] SPEAKER 3: Pelosi,
whether you love her--
[4:16] BARRACK OBAMA: One
of the best speakers
[4:17] the House of Representatives
have ever had.
[4:19] SPEAKER 3: --or hate her--
[4:20] DONALD TRUMP: That crazy Nancy.
[4:22] She is crazy.
[4:23] SPEAKER 3: --she's a
force to be reckoned with.
[4:25] NANCY PELOSI: We're not letting
anything stand in our way.
[4:28] SPEAKER 3: From KQED, part of
the NPR network, The Speaker--
[4:31] How Nancy Pelosi Changed
the Face of Power.
[4:34] Find it wherever you
get your podcasts.
[4:38] DACHER KELTNER: Welcome back
to The Science of Happiness.
[4:40] I'm Dacher Keltner.
[4:42] This week is all
about the science
[4:44] behind a controlled breathing
technique called cyclic sighing.
[4:48] With me now is professional
surfer Sarah Gerhardt
[4:51] to talk about her experience
with cyclic sighing.
[4:54] Sarah, thanks for
being on the show.
[4:56] SARAH GERHARDT: It's really
a pleasure to be here.
[4:58] Thank you.
[4:59] DACHER KELTNER: I want to ask
you about your surfing life.
[5:01] You've been surfing
since you were 13
[5:03] and made a professional career
out of surfing large waves.
[5:07] What drew you to large waves?
[5:09] Why that specialization?
[5:11] SARAH GERHARDT: I'm very curious
and probably hyperactive.
[5:14] So when I was a kid, I just
wanted to be further out,
[5:18] further out, further out.
[5:19] It's kind of like the
mountain climbers.
[5:20] They look at those mountains,
and they go, what's up there?
[5:23] I wonder what's up there.
[5:24] Part of it was a curiosity about
myself and what I could handle,
[5:28] and part of it was the intensity
of the situation really helped
[5:33] to calm all the noise
that was going on inside
[5:36] and the circumstances
on the beach,
[5:38] so I could just leave
everything behind.
[5:40] And the bigger it
was, the more intense
[5:42] the focus and the
more thrilling it was.
[5:44] DACHER KELTNER:
Yeah, I hear you.
[5:46] So we had you try out this
controlled breathing exercise
[5:48] called cyclic sighing,
which was studied
[5:51] by Andrew Huberman and
David Spiegel at Stanford.
[5:54] And David will
come by on the show
[5:55] and talk about this
later in the episode.
[5:57] But can you share
with us and just
[5:59] walk me through how to do cyclic
sighing, the steps, and how
[6:05] you do it?
[6:06] SARAH GERHARDT: Yeah.
[6:07] So the first step for
me that was so important
[6:09] was the acknowledgment
of my body
[6:12] and just the awareness of, oh,
my shoulders are in my ears,
[6:15] and I am not breathing.
[6:18] Instantly relaxing my
shoulders and becoming aware
[6:21] made me calmer.
[6:22] And then the step of breathing
in through my nostrils--
[6:27] so you breathe in
into the belly first.
[6:30] And I don't do that normally.
[6:32] So I had to breathe
into my belly first,
[6:35] and I had to figure
out how that worked.
[6:37] And then a little
hold and then fill up
[6:40] the rest of the way
to the top of my lungs
[6:43] and then let it out with a sigh.
[6:46] DACHER KELTNER: My
lab has studied,
[6:48] I guess you would
call them sighs, just
[6:50] little vocalizations.
[6:52] And I think one of the
underappreciated parts
[6:54] of this practice is to get
people to vocalize emotion.
[6:57] We make sighs that sound
like relief and sympathy.
[7:02] Marge Simpson's frustrated sigh.
[7:07] And what do your
sighs sound like?
[7:09] Do you think?
[7:10] SARAH GERHARDT: I think they
sound a little bit like relief.
[7:14] DACHER KELTNER: Yeah, it's
relief and contentment.
[7:17] And we need them.
[7:19] Walk us through one of your
cyclic sighing sessions,
[7:22] why you picked that moment to
do it, and what it was like.
[7:27] SARAH GERHARDT: The first
big cyclic sighing thing
[7:29] I did was I had a
flight to visit.
[7:32] My niece was getting married,
and my daughter and I left Santa
[7:35] Cruz at 4:15 in the
morning to make our flight.
[7:38] And we got to the airport,
and our flight was canceled.
[7:40] And I was like, OK,
I'm freaking out here.
[7:43] We had to wait six hours
to get on a flight,
[7:46] and then I had to
get a rental car
[7:47] and drive and get on a ferry.
[7:49] And it was a little stressful.
[7:51] DACHER KELTNER: Sounds a
little safer than a big wave,
[7:53] but go ahead.
[7:55] SARAH GERHARDT: I'm on land.
[7:56] It put me in the water, and I'm
a much calmer, happier, safer
[7:59] person.
[8:01] So fortunately, the airport was
mostly empty and hardly anyone
[8:05] else at the gate.
[8:06] And so I just said, I'm
just going to sit down here,
[8:07] and I'm going to do my sighing.
[8:09] And it was really,
really helpful.
[8:10] Yeah, I'll definitely
use it again.
[8:13] DACHER KELTNER: What
different places
[8:14] did you find that you
were relying on this
[8:17] or starting to build
this into your life?
[8:19] Was it moments of
anxiety, or what
[8:21] were the contexts that you've
started to build this practice?
[8:24] SARAH GERHARDT: So
I just turned 50.
[8:26] And so I'm doing all the exam
stuff-- going to the doctor,
[8:30] getting everything checked out.
[8:31] And I'm like, oh, God, this is
my least favorite type of exam.
[8:35] And so I'm going to
do cyclic sighing
[8:37] on the way, while I'm driving,
and then before the appointment.
[8:41] And so I get into
the doctor's office,
[8:44] and the medical
assistant's like, OK,
[8:45] we're going to check
your blood pressure.
[8:47] And I'm like, yeah, it's
usually around 110 over 60.
[8:50] And she goes, oh,
it's 96 over 56.
[8:53] And I'm like, oh, my gosh!
[8:54] I haven't been under 110 over
60 in a really long time.
[8:59] And I knew at that point that
the things I was feeling,
[9:02] like being relaxed and
not being as anxious
[9:05] for-- let me tell you a very
anxiety-provoking experience
[9:09] that I was just about to have.
[9:11] That was amazing to me,
actually seeing the numbers.
[9:14] So that was a real
case scenario.
[9:16] And then another of my least
favorite kinds of appointments
[9:20] would be the dental hygienist.
[9:21] I really don't like getting my
plaque scraped off my teeth.
[9:25] I just don't like it.
[9:27] I'm just.
[9:29] So I decided to
try it, and I just
[9:32] let my hygienist know I'm doing
some breathing techniques right
[9:35] now.
[9:36] And then I had to
rinse and spit,
[9:37] and I'm going to do
it a little bit more.
[9:39] And then she laid
me back in the seat.
[9:41] I felt a lot calmer
through that.
[9:43] DACHER KELTNER:
Such terrific wisdom
[9:45] because you're using your sense
of your body and the context
[9:49] like, oh, I'm feeling
overwhelmed here.
[9:51] That's a cue.
[9:51] Let's go to cyclic sighing.
[9:53] How long have you been
trying cyclic sighing?
[9:56] SARAH GERHARDT: So
a couple months.
[9:57] 2 and 1/2 months ago, I started,
and then I really started
[9:59] in earnest, probably just about
a month ago, because I was like,
[10:03] oh, yeah, I'm going to practice
it when I'm in this stressful
[10:06] situation, like at the airport,
or trying to get on the ferry
[10:10] or whatever.
[10:12] And then I realized,
wait a minute.
[10:14] I can practice it all the time.
[10:17] Like I said, when I'm
bored or overwhelmed
[10:19] or whatever situation arises,
I can practice cyclic sighing.
[10:25] So it really picked up
the pace once I started
[10:28] seeing the benefits of it.
[10:31] I actually tend to be
quite an anxious person,
[10:33] and I think I came in
the world that way.
[10:36] So anxiety builds up during the
day, and so does distraction.
[10:39] After an hour on the
computer, and I'm
[10:42] multitasking because I'm
trying to do emailing students
[10:46] and emailing other faculty.
[10:47] I'm department chair
right now, and I'm
[10:49] getting presentations ready,
and I just start freaking out.
[10:53] So it's not just like, oh,
super stressful situation.
[10:57] It's like I'm just
overloaded right now,
[11:00] and I need to calm
down, and I need
[11:02] to focus because I have another
couple hours of this stuff
[11:05] to do, and I'd rather
go surfing, honestly.
[11:07] Do you know what it
feels like to just
[11:08] be foggy-headed and
just overwhelmed,
[11:11] and what's my next step?
[11:13] I know I have this
list of 10 things that
[11:15] have to get done today.
[11:17] I have lost the ability to
prioritize and focus right now,
[11:21] and I just want to
grab a bag of chips
[11:23] and eat it because
I'm stressed out,
[11:27] but I can't put my finger on it.
[11:29] So I need to focus, and I'm
going to calm myself down.
[11:32] So I've done that, and
that's been helpful--
[11:35] taking that break to step
away from what I'm doing,
[11:38] that I'm finding overwhelming
or just boring or whatever.
[11:41] And I'm just anxious.
[11:43] So when I first was starting
to practice cyclic sighing,
[11:46] I set a timer, and my timer
got off an hour later.
[11:48] And I'm like, oh,
what's the timer for?
[11:50] Oh, yeah, I'm going
to breathe right now.
[11:52] Those are the shifts.
[11:53] Those are important shifts--
these simple little things that
[11:57] have really important
consequences
[11:59] and shifts towards a positive,
more productive, calmer life.
[12:03] So that is the benefit to me of
incorporating cyclic sighing.
[12:10] DACHER KELTNER: Other thoughts
on the context in your life
[12:13] where you really have built
this into your practice?
[12:15] SARAH GERHARDT: It
really doesn't take much.
[12:17] It's like, what is it?
[12:18] Six breaths.
[12:18] And I'm like, oh, I feel calmer.
[12:20] And sometimes it is interesting.
[12:22] I notice that I
have to focus on it.
[12:24] And I think that may be one of
the aspects of why it's calming,
[12:28] because I'm shifting
my focus away
[12:30] from whatever chaos is
around me or whatever
[12:33] I'm perceiving to
be chaotic, and I'm
[12:36] moving to this other practice.
[12:38] It's not like I'm
doing it for an hour.
[12:39] I'm just doing it for
six, maybe eight breaths.
[12:41] And all of a sudden, I realize
I'm not counting anymore,
[12:44] and I'm breathing
deeper, and I'm like,
[12:46] OK, I'm ready to move on.
[12:48] DACHER KELTNER: Yeah.
[12:48] SARAH GERHARDT: It's nice.
[12:49] DACHER KELTNER:
Yeah, I hear you.
[12:51] I'm curious.
[12:52] When you think about all
the practices you've done,
[12:56] what does this breathing
and then the cyclic sighing
[12:58] give to you that's
unique, perhaps?
[13:00] SARAH GERHARDT:
I think something
[13:01] that's unique about this is
that it gives me a practice when
[13:07] I'm not in movement.
[13:10] It's something that I
do when I'm not moving.
[13:12] Yoga is in movement.
[13:14] Vinyasa flow, right?
[13:15] Or surfing's in movement.
[13:17] Or mountain biking.
[13:18] I'm in movement.
[13:18] And I don't have to
think about breathing
[13:20] when I'm mountain biking.
[13:21] Going up a hill,
I am sucking air.
[13:24] I have to breathe.
[13:26] So I have these
physical practices
[13:28] that the breathing
comes with it.
[13:31] But what do I do when I'm
sitting here and I'm anxious,
[13:33] or I'm in the car, or I'm in
the line at the grocery store?
[13:38] What do I do when I'm bored in
my office, and I'm just like,
[13:42] oh, I'm tired of
doing what I'm doing?
[13:44] Well, I can easily
refocus and reshift
[13:49] my response, my
emotional response,
[13:51] or my physical response
to the circumstances
[13:53] just by doing this practice.
[13:55] Then I'm sleeping better.
[13:57] Then I'm living better.
[13:59] I'm living from a
centered, calmer space.
[14:03] And let me just reiterate,
that is not my natural state.
[14:06] And I think it's
really powerful.
[14:08] And I'm really
excited to practice it
[14:10] and to continue to practice it.
[14:13] DACHER KELTNER: Thank
you so much, Sarah.
[14:15] It's been a wonderful interview.
[14:16] SARAH GERHARDT: Well, thank you
for having me and introducing me
[14:19] to a very valuable practice that
I'll use the rest of my life.
[14:23] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[14:28] DACHER KELTNER: Hey, everyone.
[14:29] Next, we'll hear from
Dr. David Spiegel, who
[14:31] worked with Andrew Huberman
from the Huberman Lab podcast
[14:34] to test how different
breathing techniques
[14:36] like cyclic sighing
and mindful meditation
[14:39] impact our mood and
breathing rates.
[14:41] DAVID SPIEGEL: We tend
to over-breathe, not
[14:44] breathe deeply enough,
and breathe too rapidly.
[14:47] So typically, it's
10 to 12 a minute
[14:50] for people when it
ought to be more like 6.
[14:53] And you breathe more
efficiently and more relaxingly
[14:56] if you take longer,
slower breaths.
[15:00] DACHER KELTNER: Dr.
Spiegel will also
[15:01] guide us in a short, cyclic
sighing practice on next week's
[15:05] Happiness Break episode.
[15:06] Tune in then, and you can
try it out even earlier.
[15:09] We have a step-by-step
guide in our show notes.
[15:12] More on the science of
cyclic sighing up next.
[15:15] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[15:24] Real progress
starts with action.
[15:27] As executive director of
the Honnold Foundation,
[15:29] Emily Teitsworth works to
expand access to solar energy
[15:33] and communities around the
world, supporting locally
[15:36] led projects that bring reliable
power, greater independence,
[15:40] and opportunity where
it's needed most.
[15:43] On the podcast
Planet Visionaries,
[15:46] professional climber and Honnold
Foundation founder Alex Honnold
[15:50] goes beyond the
headlines with Emily
[15:53] to explore practical solutions
for a more equitable future.
[15:57] In partnership with the Rolex
Perpetual Planet Initiative,
[16:00] this is Planet Visionaries.
[16:03] Listen or watch wherever
you get your podcasts.
[16:06] SPEAKER 4: My entryway has
been one of those spaces
[16:08] that I kept meaning
to figure out.
[16:10] Shoes would end up
on the floor, coats
[16:13] would get thrown over a
chair, and it just never
[16:15] felt very pulled together.
[16:17] So when I was
looking on Wayfair,
[16:19] I knew I wanted something
that would give me
[16:21] actual storage without making
the space feel cluttered.
[16:24] I ended up choosing a beautiful
entryway storage piece
[16:28] and found it really helpful to
look through the customer photos
[16:30] and reviews while
I was shopping.
[16:33] Seeing how the pieces looked
in other people's homes
[16:35] gave me a much better
sense of the size and style
[16:38] before I chose it.
[16:40] The difference in my own
entryway has been amazing.
[16:43] Everything has a
designated spot now,
[16:45] and I love that it looks like an
intentional piece of furniture
[16:48] rather than just storage.
[16:49] It feels clean
and simple, and it
[16:51] fits in with the rest of
my space really nicely.
[16:55] Fine pieces made for real life.
[16:57] And get even more value
with Wayfair rewards.
[17:00] Join Wayfair rewards today to
get 5% back on every purchase.
[17:05] Head to wayfair.com to
shop all things home.
[17:08] That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com.
[17:11] [WAYFAIR JINGLE] Wayfair,
every style, every home
[17:15] SPEAKER 2: One thing that has
made my weeknight dinners so
[17:18] much easier lately is having
good protein already stocked
[17:21] in my freezer.
[17:23] I've been using
ButcherBox, and I
[17:24] love that I can open my freezer
and know that I have something
[17:27] I'm actually excited to cook.
[17:29] I'm usually pretty good
about eating at home,
[17:31] but there are definitely
nights when I'm tired,
[17:34] and the idea of going
to the grocery store
[17:36] just feels like too much.
[17:37] Having ButcherBox on
hand makes it so much
[17:39] easier to throw together
something simple,
[17:42] whether that's chicken and
veggies, burgers, or steak.
[17:45] ButcherBox delivers 100%
grass-fed beef, organic chicken,
[17:50] wild-caught seafood,
and more, all
[17:53] sourced to standards they
can actually tell you about.
[17:55] They've already
done the research
[17:57] and made the tough
sourcing decisions.
[17:59] So all you have to do is
decide what's for dinner.
[18:01] If you're looking
for an easier way
[18:03] to get great meals on the
table, give ButcherBox a try.
[18:07] Go to butcherbox.com/happiness
to get $20 off your first box.
[18:11] Plus, chicken breast
in every box for life,
[18:14] or filet or New York
strips for a year,
[18:17] with free shipping always.
[18:19] That's butcherbox.com/happiness.
[18:21] Again, that's
butcherbox.com/happiness.
[18:24] Be sure to use our link
so they know we sent you.
[18:29] DAVID SPIEGEL: Breathing is
a really interesting function
[18:31] because it's right at the edge
of conscious and unconscious
[18:34] activity.
[18:35] So by and large, heart
rate, blood pressure,
[18:38] gastric function, and all that
are pretty much unconscious
[18:40] activities.
[18:42] Breath is right in the middle.
[18:44] So if you don't pay
any attention to it,
[18:46] you will continue
breathing, we hope.
[18:48] But if you do, you can
control it very easily.
[18:51] DACHER KELTNER: That's
Dr. David Spiegel,
[18:53] the Stanford psychologist
who studied this technique.
[18:55] Shuka Kalantari spoke with
him about his experiment,
[18:58] which measured the
effects of cyclic sighing
[19:02] against other breathing
methods and mindful meditation
[19:05] to see which one
makes us feel better.
[19:07] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[19:13] SHUKA KALANTARI: You have been
a member of the academic faculty
[19:16] at Stanford School of
Medicine since 1975,
[19:20] which is quite impressive.
[19:22] And I'm just curious.
[19:24] In all your years
of research, what
[19:26] brought you to studying the
connection between our breath
[19:30] and our bodies?
[19:31] DAVID SPIEGEL: Well,
I have been studying
[19:33] mind-brain-body interactions
my entire career,
[19:37] and so I've been
interested in ways
[19:38] in which the brain and the body
interact that can help people
[19:42] live better.
[19:44] One of the things
that I've learned
[19:46] is that it helps in handling
stress to work from the body up,
[19:50] rather than the brain down.
[19:51] That is, rather than
having to figure out
[19:53] why you are the way
you are, just do
[19:55] something that makes
your body feel better,
[19:57] and you can handle
stress better.
[20:00] We compared three
kinds of breathwork
[20:02] with a brief meditation control
condition to see what happened.
[20:08] We had people practice
just five minutes a day
[20:11] doing either cyclic
sighing, box breathing,
[20:15] or cyclic hyperventilation in
comparison to the meditation.
[20:20] And what we found was very
interesting that with just five
[20:23] minutes a day for a
month of practice,
[20:26] the people, particularly
with cyclic sighing,
[20:29] had reduced average
respiratory rate just doing
[20:33] five minutes a day
of cyclic sighing,
[20:35] improve their mood as well.
[20:37] And so we realized that a
very brief intervention, just
[20:42] practiced regularly for a month,
could have substantial effects.
[20:50] We can try it if you'd like.
[20:51] SHUKA KALANTARI: That
would be awesome.
[20:53] DAVID SPIEGEL: Here we go.
[20:54] So just take a note
of just how wound up
[20:57] tense you feel right now.
[20:59] Can you rate it on
a 0 to 10 scale?
[21:02] SHUKA KALANTARI: I'm
always like a 5 up--
[21:04] DAVID SPIEGEL: 5 up.
[21:05] SHUKA KALANTARI: --kind of girl.
[21:06] DAVID SPIEGEL: So just get
as comfortable as you can.
[21:12] And I'm going to ask you to
inhale through your nose.
[21:16] And I want you to start
with your abdomen.
[21:18] So diaphragmatic
inhale-- push out
[21:20] your belly to inhale till your
lungs feel somewhat comfortably
[21:24] full.
[21:25] And then stop.
[21:26] And now use your chest to
fill your lungs completely,
[21:30] again through your nose.
[21:33] And now slowly exhale
through your mouth.
[21:39] Through your mouth,
slowly exhale.
[21:42] The exhale should take about
twice as long as the two inhales
[21:46] did.
[21:47] Now, again, inhale through your
nose, starting with your belly.
[21:53] Hold.
[21:55] Now expand your chest and
fill your lungs completely
[21:58] through your nose.
[22:01] And a nice, slow exhale
through your mouth.
[22:04] Very slow.
[22:11] How are you feeling?
[22:12] SHUKA KALANTARI:
Much more relaxed.
[22:14] DAVID SPIEGEL: Oh, yeah?
[22:15] SHUKA KALANTARI: Yeah.
[22:16] DAVID SPIEGEL: Great.
[22:17] How would you rate it on
that 0 to 10 scale now?
[22:20] SHUKA KALANTARI: I'm like
below a 5 now a little bit.
[22:23] It's really just amazing
the amount of tension
[22:27] that we can hold in our
bodies continuously.
[22:31] Speaking of the body, what's
happening physiologically
[22:35] during these
inhales and exhales?
[22:38] DAVID SPIEGEL: We all
tend to breathe too fast.
[22:40] A good average breath rate
is about six a minute.
[22:44] So every 10 seconds go
through a full breath cycle.
[22:48] And the secret to cyclic
sighing in particular
[22:53] is that long, slow exhale.
[22:56] We tend to say, when you
want somebody to calm down,
[22:58] you say, take a deep breath.
[23:00] It's actually not the trick.
[23:02] It's not a good
idea, because what
[23:05] you do to take a deep
breath is you create
[23:08] a vacuum in your chest cavity
that sucks in air from outside,
[23:12] and that has the
effect of reducing
[23:15] blood flow to the heart.
[23:16] So the sinoatrial
node in the heart
[23:19] says, wait a minute,
decreased blood flow.
[23:20] We better increase heart rate
to maintain full circulation
[23:24] of blood in the body.
[23:25] So it triggers increased
heart rate and blood pressure.
[23:29] And what you do when
you exhale slowly
[23:32] is you increase
pressure in the chest.
[23:35] That's what forces air out
into the world around you.
[23:38] And that increases
blood flow to the heart.
[23:41] And so then the sinoatrial
node thinks, well, OK,
[23:45] plenty of blood coming in.
[23:46] We can slow down heart rate.
[23:47] And that's a major trigger
of parasympathetic activity.
[23:51] It's the rest-and-digest
mode, and the ability
[23:54] to maintain it is a major
regulator of heart rate
[23:57] variability, which you
need to go to sleep,
[23:59] which you need to just rest
and relax and rest and digest.
[24:03] And so cyclic sighing,
in particular,
[24:05] triggers this
parasympathetic response.
[24:13] SHUKA KALANTARI: Why do
you think the breathwork,
[24:15] particularly cyclic sighing,
but all three different kinds
[24:18] of breathwork overall
had more of an effect
[24:22] on people's well-being and
happiness than meditation?
[24:26] I found that really fascinating.
[24:28] DAVID SPIEGEL: Well, I
would say in some ways,
[24:30] it's a little
unfair to meditation
[24:32] in that the typical meditation
practice is more like half
[24:35] an hour.
[24:36] It's not like the five
minutes we did there,
[24:38] but we needed a
reasonable control
[24:40] that people use
and benefit from.
[24:43] But I also do think,
from my work in hypnosis,
[24:46] that we have much more
ability to control
[24:49] what's happening in our body
than we give ourselves credit
[24:51] for.
[24:52] With these briefer
techniques like breathwork,
[24:55] you can very quickly change
what's going on in your body.
[24:59] So we can do things to regulate
the way our bodies feel
[25:02] and the way we feel
psychologically
[25:04] a lot more quickly than we
give ourselves credit for.
[25:08] SHUKA KALANTARI: I'm curious how
you would envision integrating
[25:12] these controlled breathing
methods, like cyclic sighing,
[25:15] into the public,
more specifically
[25:17] into medical settings.
[25:19] What would that look like?
[25:20] What would you aspire towards?
[25:22] DAVID SPIEGEL: If
you have somebody
[25:23] who's anxious
before a procedure--
[25:25] when you have something that can
rapidly help people feel more
[25:29] relaxed as quickly as
you and I did it together
[25:32] in about a minute, it's very
useful before procedures,
[25:35] just calming people down
and helping them do it.
[25:38] One very cool thing shortly
after our paper came out
[25:41] was that Eric Adams,
the mayor of New York,
[25:43] decreed that all the New York
City schools would start the day
[25:47] with breathing exercises.
[25:49] He said, there's now
published evidence
[25:51] that it helps relax people.
[25:53] And just to teach the students
that they can get themselves
[25:56] in a frame of mind where they
can learn more effectively.
[25:59] They're not so hyperactive.
[26:01] It can be a wonderful
transition point
[26:03] to say, OK, I'm going to let
the other attentions float away
[26:07] and put my body
and mind in a state
[26:10] where I'm more open to learning.
[26:12] And I'd love to see more
of that happening as well.
[26:15] SHUKA KALANTARI: What
would you say to people
[26:17] out there who maybe have some
trepidation, a fear of going
[26:21] to the body?
[26:22] DAVID SPIEGEL: I would say the
way we live our lives ordinarily
[26:26] is a little bit like driving a
car, but not having your hands
[26:29] on the steering
wheel all the time.
[26:32] There are ways in
which we can help
[26:35] our bodies help us
live our lives more
[26:37] effectively and better.
[26:39] And we're used to the
idea of physical exercise,
[26:41] but somehow we
don't see ourselves
[26:44] as needing to train our minds
to help us live better, too.
[26:49] All I'd say is try it.
[26:50] You'll like it.
[26:51] It's one of these
things where the minute
[26:53] you can see how you make your
body feel more comfortable
[26:55] and relaxed, stressors
become less threatening
[26:58] because you can regulate
your body's response to them.
[27:02] You're having trouble
getting to sleep.
[27:04] I find cyclic sighing
is very helpful.
[27:06] And this is not a huge
commitment of time and energy.
[27:09] You can do something
in five minutes or less
[27:12] that make your body feel better.
[27:14] We don't think we can do that
most of the time, but we can.
[27:17] Our brains learn over time
to address certain situations
[27:21] in ways that have worked before.
[27:23] Neurons that fire
together wire together.
[27:26] And we know now that
the brain is constantly
[27:28] reprogramming itself.
[27:29] And so if you handle
stress better, over time,
[27:34] it'll become more
and more automatic,
[27:36] like learning to ride a bicycle.
[27:37] You got to think about it a
lot and practice it at first.
[27:41] And then you just
do it instinctively
[27:42] because your brain has
learned how to do it.
[27:44] So I would say to people--
[27:47] it's not a huge commitment
of time and energy,
[27:49] but the rewards are great.
[27:54] SHUKA KALANTARI:
Well, Dr. Spiegel,
[27:55] thank you so much for joining
us on The Science of Happiness
[27:58] to talk about your
work in cyclic sighing.
[28:01] I think I'm definitely
going to try it out.
[28:04] DAVID SPIEGEL: Yeah.
[28:05] Good.
[28:05] Well, I hope you will.
[28:06] And you're welcome.
[28:08] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[28:12] DACHER KELTNER: Next
week, Dr. Spiegel
[28:14] will be guiding us in a
cyclic sighing session
[28:17] for our Happiness Break.
[28:20] Our associate producers are
Emily Brower, Terrin Kutcher,
[28:24] and Anna Zhu.
[28:26] Our producer is Truc Nguyen.
[28:28] Our sound designer is Jennie
Cataldo of Accompany Studios.
[28:30] Our executive producer
is Shuka Kalantari.
[28:33] I'm Dacher Keltner.
[28:34] Thank you for listening to
The Science of Happiness.
[28:37] Have a great day.
[28:37] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[28:44] ANNOUNCER: From PRX.