Transcript
[0:00] [Music]
[0:00] welcome to the hubman lab guest Series
[0:02] where I and an expert guest discuss
[0:05] science and science-based tools for
[0:06] everyday life I'm Andrew huberman and
[0:09] I'm a professor of neurobiology and
[0:11] Opthalmology at Stanford School of
[0:13] Medicine today's episode marks the first
[0:16] in a four episode series all about
[0:18] mental health the expert guest for this
[0:21] series is Dr Paul KY Dr Paul kti is a
[0:25] medical doctor and psychiatrist who
[0:27] completed his medical training at
[0:28] Stanford University School of Medicine
[0:30] and then went on to become chief
[0:32] resident of Psychiatry at Harvard
[0:34] Medical School he then went on to found
[0:36] the Pacific Premier Group which is a
[0:38] collection of psychiatrists and
[0:39] therapists who are expert in treating
[0:41] all types of psychiatric disorders and
[0:43] life stressors across the four episodes
[0:46] of this series on Mental Health Dr Ki
[0:48] teaches us about the structure of our
[0:50] own minds and how to think about our own
[0:53] minds as a way to enhance our mental
[0:55] health he explains how our subconscious
[0:57] mind and our conscious mind interact to
[0:59] drive our emotions our decision-making
[1:01] and our behavior and while any series
[1:04] about mental health requires that from
[1:05] time to time we discuss personality
[1:07] disorders and psychiatric challenges the
[1:09] main discussion in today's episode and
[1:11] in fact all four episodes in this series
[1:14] are about what it means to be mentally
[1:15] healthy and how to build one's mental
[1:18] health through specific practices either
[1:20] done alone or with a therapist today's
[1:23] episode addresses several key questions
[1:26] as well as provides protocols for you to
[1:28] address questions about your own Mental
[1:30] Health
[1:31] for instance you will learn what
[1:32] constitutes the most mentally healthy
[1:34] version of yourself you will learn to
[1:36] assess and indeed you will learn
[1:38] protocols for addressing levels of
[1:40] anxiety levels of your confidence how to
[1:43] think about your beliefs and internal
[1:44] narratives how to think about your selft
[1:47] talk and restructure your selft talk we
[1:49] discuss common challenges such as
[1:51] overthinking we talk about the role of
[1:53] defense mechanisms and other aspects of
[1:55] the conscious and unconscious mind
[1:57] interactions that can lead us toward or
[1:59] away from the healthiest versions of
[2:01] ourselves you'll notice that during the
[2:03] first 5 minutes or so of today's
[2:04] discussion Dr kti describes a framework
[2:08] of what he refers to as the structure of
[2:09] self and the function of self and he
[2:12] describes several pillars for
[2:14] understanding what those are I'd like to
[2:16] highlight that while that short portion
[2:17] of our discussion does bring up a number
[2:20] of terms that are likely to be novel to
[2:21] you they certainly were novel to me that
[2:24] as our conversation proceeds you will
[2:26] really come to appreciate just how
[2:28] simple and yet powerful that framework
[2:31] is it will help you understand for
[2:32] instance the relationship between your
[2:34] conscious mind and your subconscious
[2:36] mind in ways that you can really apply
[2:38] toward enhancing your mental health in
[2:40] addition to that Dr kti has generously
[2:42] provided a few PDFs which illustrate
[2:45] that framework for you and that are
[2:46] available completely zero cost by going
[2:48] to the links in the show note captions
[2:50] so you have the option to download those
[2:52] PDFs and to look them over either prior
[2:55] to or during or perhaps after you listen
[2:57] to these four podcast episodes as a
[2:59] final note before beginning today's
[3:01] discussion just want to emphasize my
[3:03] sentiment which I'm confident will soon
[3:06] be your sentiment as well which is that
[3:08] Dr Paul kti shares with us immensely
[3:10] powerful tools for enhancing mental
[3:12] health that at least to my knowledge
[3:14] have never been shared publicly before
[3:16] in fact as somebody who has done more
[3:18] than three decades of therapy I've never
[3:20] before been exposed to a conversation
[3:22] about the structure of the mind and the
[3:24] subconscious mind as well as tools and
[3:26] protocols for enhancing mental health as
[3:29] powerful as these for me the information
[3:31] was absolutely transformative in terms
[3:33] of reshaping my thought patterns my
[3:35] emotional patterns and indeed several of
[3:38] my behavioral patterns and I'm confident
[3:40] that the information that you'll glean
[3:41] from today's episode and throughout the
[3:42] series will be positively transformative
[3:44] for you as well before we begin I'd like
[3:47] to emphasize that this podcast is
[3:48] separate from my teaching and research
[3:50] roles at Stanford it is however part of
[3:52] my desire and effort to bring zeroc cost
[3:54] to Consumer information about science
[3:56] and science related tools to the general
[3:57] public in keeping with that theme I'd
[3:59] like to thank the sponsors of today's
[4:01] podcast our first sponsor is betterhelp
[4:04] better help offers Professional Therapy
[4:06] with a licensed therapist carried out
[4:08] online I personally have been doing
[4:10] weekly therapy for more than 30 years
[4:12] and while that Weekly therapy was
[4:14] initiated not by my own request it was
[4:17] in fact a requirement for me to uh
[4:19] remain in high school over time I really
[4:21] came to appreciate just how valuable
[4:23] doing quality therapy is in fact I look
[4:26] at doing quality therapy much in the
[4:28] same way that I look at going to to the
[4:30] gym or doing cardiovascular training
[4:32] such as running as ways to enhance my
[4:34] physical health I see therapy as a vital
[4:37] way to enhance one's mental health the
[4:40] beauty of better help is that they make
[4:41] it very easy to find an excellent
[4:42] therapist an excellent therapist can be
[4:44] defined as somebody who is going to be
[4:47] very supportive of you in an objective
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[4:53] insights that you wouldn't have
[4:54] otherwise been able to find and because
[4:56] better heal therapy is conducted
[4:58] entirely online it's it's extremely
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[5:02] the rest of your life so if you're
[5:04] interested in betterhelp go to
[5:05] betterhelp.com huberman to get 10% off
[5:09] your first month that's betterhelp
[5:10] spelled
[5:12] hp.com today's episode is also brought
[5:15] To Us by waking up waking up is a
[5:17] meditation app that offers dozens of
[5:19] guided meditation sessions mindfulness
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[5:24] by now there's an abundance of data
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[5:58] like Yoga Nidra which place the brain
[6:00] and body into a sort of pseudo sleep
[6:03] that allows you to emerge feeling
[6:04] incredibly mentally refreshed in fact
[6:06] the science around Yoga Nidra is really
[6:07] impressive showing that after a Yoga
[6:09] Nidra session levels of dopamine in
[6:12] certain areas of the brain are enhanced
[6:13] by up to 60% which places the brain in
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[6:18] for mental work and for physical work
[6:21] another thing I really like about the
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[6:48] huberman and now for my discussion about
[6:50] how to understand and assess your level
[6:52] of mental health with Dr Paul KY Dr Paul
[6:56] kti welcome thank you I'm very excited
[6:59] for today's episode and for this series
[7:01] because I like so many other people out
[7:04] there have a lot of questions about
[7:06] myself and themselves and not just about
[7:09] ourselves but how the different
[7:12] personality types out there the healthy
[7:15] types the narcissists the you know all
[7:18] the things that we hear about these days
[7:20] gaslighting all these sorts of things
[7:22] what all of that really is um perhaps we
[7:25] can dispel some of the myths that exist
[7:27] during the course of this series I'm
[7:28] sure we will or you will thank you and
[7:32] also raise certain important questions
[7:34] that we should all ask ourselves in
[7:36] terms of trying to understand who we are
[7:38] and how we can be the best versions of
[7:39] ourselves how we can
[7:41] experience the most happiness also the
[7:44] the most richness in life because of
[7:46] course life isn't just all about being
[7:47] happy so to start off this question I I
[7:50] want to raise a parallel with something
[7:52] I think for most people is is more
[7:54] concrete which is physical health you
[7:56] know um while there isn't an ideal
[8:00] physical self that's been defined by the
[8:02] medical community we know for instance
[8:04] that there is a range of blood pressures
[8:07] that are considered healthy there's a a
[8:09] range of body mass index that's
[8:12] considered healthy although that's a
[8:13] little controversial because it depends
[8:15] on how much muscle how lean people are
[8:17] Etc but you know I think it's reasonable
[8:20] to say that the healthy individual is
[8:22] not going to get exhausted walking up a
[8:24] flight of stairs that they could bend
[8:26] down and lift an object without hurting
[8:28] themselves they might even have some
[8:29] additional strength or endurance Etc
[8:32] within the physical health domain all of
[8:34] that is fairly well scripted and there
[8:36] are protocols that people can follow to
[8:39] improve their physical health we've
[8:40] covered many of them on this podcast
[8:43] before when it comes to mental health
[8:45] and it comes to concepts of the self
[8:48] Things become much more abstract for
[8:50] people in fact I think most people
[8:51] including myself are kind of wandering
[8:53] around in the dark wondering whether or
[8:54] not we are the best versions of
[8:56] ourselves whether or not we're thinking
[8:58] about ourselves and the world around us
[8:59] in the best best ways so to start things
[9:01] off you tell us what is the healthy
[9:04] version of self I mean what what what
[9:06] should we all be aspiring to you've
[9:07] worked with people who uh presumably are
[9:10] healthy and people who have severe
[9:11] pathologies of different psychiatric
[9:14] types right bipolar narcissistic
[9:18] sociopathic uh and everything in
[9:21] between so for me and for the listeners
[9:25] what is a healthy self what should we be
[9:27] striving for well a healthy self
[9:29] approaches life through the lens of
[9:32] agency and gratitude if you look at
[9:34] happy people you know people who like
[9:36] their lives right no matter what stage
[9:38] of Life they're at right no matter what
[9:41] their socioeconomic status is you know
[9:43] race religion there's so many things
[9:46] that we we think matters right and and
[9:48] and and they matter to a lot of things
[9:50] do they matter to is someone happy or
[9:52] not right they they are not factors
[9:55] right the factors that tell us is this
[9:58] person enjoying life are they going to
[9:59] take care of themselves are they happy
[10:01] they're here are they engaged
[10:02] productively in the world is agency and
[10:06] gratitude and if we have those two
[10:08] things then it's interesting you almost
[10:11] never see someone go wrong right and
[10:14] even if if there difficulties even if
[10:16] there are things happen in life that
[10:18] that can make some unhappiness right it
[10:21] doesn't take away the person's
[10:22] engagement in life the person's
[10:23] enthusiasm for life and I think if you
[10:26] look at even traditions of understanding
[10:28] how are people happy whether it's in
[10:30] Psychiatry or it's through literature or
[10:32] through a religious lens it is always
[10:34] people who approach life through the
[10:37] lens of agency and
[10:39] gratitude could we go a little bit
[10:41] deeper on agency and gratitude sure when
[10:44] I hear the words agency and gratitude I
[10:46] think agency and ability to affect the
[10:48] world around me in the ways that I want
[10:50] and I think gratitude being thankful and
[10:53] uh and we did an entire episode all
[10:55] about gratitude practices some of the
[10:58] neuroscience and neuroimaging and Ne
[11:00] chemical changes that occur in the brain
[11:02] and body when people exert a gratitude
[11:05] practice but I have a feeling that when
[11:07] you talk about agency and gratitude you
[11:08] might be talking about something
[11:10] slightly or maybe even quite a bit
[11:12] different than the way that I'm defining
[11:14] it yeah I would say agency and gratitude
[11:17] are these amazing rewards right that sit
[11:20] on top of the highly complex brain
[11:24] function inside of us and the highly
[11:26] complex psychology in all of us so if we
[11:29] think about a self right that I
[11:32] identify a self right I'm an ie right if
[11:36] if I'm going to approach the world with
[11:38] agency and gratitude that's sitting on
[11:41] top of a lot of healthy things right and
[11:43] the idea that okay there are ways in
[11:45] which we can be mentally unhealthy right
[11:48] but to start with like what is going on
[11:50] inside of us right and what does it look
[11:53] like when we're healthy so there's a
[11:55] structure of the self right there's
[11:58] function of the self and we we look at
[12:00] the structure and the function and the
[12:02] parts the components of structure and
[12:04] function we can come to understand okay
[12:07] what is going on in us what might we
[12:09] change for the better how do we build
[12:12] empowerment right empowerment is is the
[12:15] the the ability to navigate the world
[12:19] around us and to bring myself to bear in
[12:21] ways that are effective and from
[12:23] empowerment arises the sense of agency
[12:26] right I have agency because I am
[12:28] empowered right and also from a healthy
[12:31] structure of self and function of self
[12:34] we end up with humility right we come
[12:37] through that with a sense of our our
[12:40] place in the world and our power in the
[12:42] world to to navigate as we choose but
[12:44] also a sense of the world around us
[12:47] that's far more complicated right than
[12:49] just we are extends Beyond us to other
[12:51] people to the climate around us to the
[12:54] health of the whole planet right we we
[12:56] feel a sense of humility that I'm here
[12:59] and I can do good things I'm fortunate
[13:01] to be here and I'm part of this bigger
[13:04] ecosystem right all the way up to the
[13:06] scale of the ecosystem of earth right
[13:08] and if we feel that humility then we
[13:11] approach the world through the lens of
[13:13] gratitude so the idea that a healthy
[13:15] structure of self and a healthy function
[13:18] of self leads to empowerment and
[13:20] humility and then upon that we are we
[13:24] are sort of imbued with agency and
[13:27] gratitude and that leads us us forth to
[13:31] happy lives okay so it's clear to me why
[13:34] having agency and gratitude would be
[13:38] wonderful perhaps even the goal state
[13:40] that we should all be seeking to achieve
[13:42] and it also makes sense to me as to why
[13:45] empowerment and humility are important
[13:49] components that feed into our ability to
[13:50] have agency and gratitude yes right
[13:53] because all of that at least to my mind
[13:55] sums to it a very clear statement about
[14:00] having agency and gratitude is the best
[14:02] way to approach life that all makes
[14:04] perfect sense to me and yet I've never
[14:05] really thought about it that way and I
[14:07] think most people haven't ever been told
[14:09] this right I mean what should we be
[14:10] seeking agency and gratitude yes you
[14:12] know we've heard endless number of
[14:15] podcasts including this podcast about
[14:18] physical health and we've been told by
[14:20] physicians and everybody else that you
[14:22] know we should seek to have a relatively
[14:24] low blood pressure we should seek to
[14:26] have a relatively low heart rate that
[14:29] cholesterol should be at a certain level
[14:31] Etc So within the physical health domain
[14:33] you know there are strong clear messages
[14:36] about what we should all be striving
[14:37] toward and in a similar way to how we're
[14:41] discussing the self in Psychology you
[14:43] know I don't think anyone seeks to have
[14:44] low blood pressure or low heart rate
[14:46] because that's what they want per se
[14:49] they want those things along with some
[14:51] capacity for endurance the ability to to
[14:53] you know lift an object so some strength
[14:55] Etc because of the way that those
[14:58] metrics of Health allow them to move
[15:00] through the world in the best possible
[15:02] way in other words having some degree of
[15:03] endurance allows you to walk down the
[15:05] block maybe a lot further or to walk up
[15:07] several flights of stairs or to have
[15:10] some strength allows you to pick up
[15:11] objects and effectively move through
[15:13] life right you're telling us that having
[15:16] a sense of agency and
[15:18] gratitude and that agency and gratitude
[15:21] are underg guarded by empowerment and
[15:23] humility and that's the best way to move
[15:25] through life the most effective happiest
[15:28] if you will way to move through life
[15:30] well then I think we have to ask
[15:31] ourselves the same thing we would ask
[15:33] about physical fitness which is what
[15:35] goes into creating a sense of agency and
[15:37] gratitude empowerment and humility you
[15:39] know what are the action steps because
[15:41] if I want more endurance I know to get
[15:43] on an exercise bike or or a treadmill or
[15:45] go out for a run a few times a week or
[15:47] more if I want to get stronger I'm going
[15:48] to lift objects that are difficult to
[15:50] lift until they're easier to lift I mean
[15:52] it's all pretty straightforward in the
[15:54] physical domain but in the in the mental
[15:56] health domain in the psychological
[15:58] domain it does become a bit more
[16:00] abstract I think in part because no
[16:01] one's ever told us certainly no one's
[16:04] ever told me what you really need in is
[16:07] agency and gratitude in order to have
[16:09] the best possible life so I very much
[16:11] appreciate that you're telling us this
[16:13] and I'd love for you to tell us what are
[16:15] the action steps that go into creating
[16:17] these things that we're calling agency
[16:19] gratitude empowerment and humility you
[16:22] there's actually quite a strong parallel
[16:24] between the physical health Dimension
[16:26] and the mental health Dimension so so as
[16:29] you're saying like why do you put in the
[16:31] time the energy the learning right to be
[16:33] physically healthy right it's a lot of
[16:35] effort and and we put so much of
[16:38] ourselves towards it if we decide that
[16:40] we value that right why do we do it
[16:42] right because as you said it's the best
[16:45] way to approach life like there may be
[16:47] something that I want to do I I want to
[16:49] run a race right or I you know I I want
[16:51] to climb a mountain right but ultimately
[16:53] we take care of ourselves physically
[16:55] because we don't know what's coming next
[16:57] in life and we want to be prepared for
[16:58] it good bad and otherwise right and the
[17:01] same thing is true of mental health so I
[17:04] can feel grateful for something I can
[17:06] feel grateful that I'm still breathing
[17:07] right now right I can exercise agency I
[17:10] can pick up that cup and take a drink
[17:12] right but that doesn't mean that I'm
[17:14] living life through the lens of agency
[17:17] and gratitude which is consistent with
[17:20] every opinion if you look
[17:21] psychologically through the lens of
[17:23] literature through the lens of so of
[17:24] sociology and psychology agency and
[17:27] gratitude make happiness right they ways
[17:31] of approaching life and just like
[17:34] physical health is undergirded by uh by
[17:38] cardiovascular health heart health
[17:40] muscle strength right that there's an
[17:42] undering of agency and gratitude and
[17:46] empowerment and humility are ways of
[17:49] describing okay what arises right from
[17:54] understanding ourselves taking care of
[17:55] ourselves that then gives us the agency
[17:58] and gratitude so we have empowerment we
[18:00] have humility but where does it all come
[18:02] from right so just like we have to
[18:05] understand the physical body and what to
[18:06] do to it in order to be healthy right we
[18:09] also have to understand the mind right
[18:11] the self that wants to be healthier and
[18:14] that comes through understanding the
[18:16] structure of the self and we have enough
[18:18] science through the lens of neurobiology
[18:21] and Psychiatry to understand the
[18:23] structure of self and then the function
[18:25] of self right how we work right how we
[18:28] interfere face with the world so it's
[18:31] actually not more complicated than
[18:34] physical health it's just that we don't
[18:36] spell it out that way right we come at
[18:38] it through the lens of pathology of
[18:40] what's wrong and who has some diagnosis
[18:42] and you know we're looking for the
[18:44] problematic instead of saying like what
[18:46] do we look like when we're happy right
[18:48] and then going and digging down into the
[18:50] mechanics of it all right and if we're
[18:53] not in that state right to go and look
[18:56] at that and to make changes just as if
[18:58] you were very very physically healthy
[19:00] right but you know your heart rate
[19:02] couldn't go up that much without you
[19:03] feeling very very fatigued we'd say well
[19:06] look you're doing a lot of the right
[19:07] things right but let's work more on on
[19:10] your heart right we would go look at the
[19:13] specifics of it because that's how we
[19:15] understand it and we just don't apply
[19:18] the same science logic common sense to
[19:22] mental health as we do to physical
[19:24] health but it's time for that to change
[19:26] because we have the knowledge and
[19:27] ability to do just that
[19:31] when we had Dr Andy Galpin on this
[19:33] podcast to do a series on physical
[19:36] health and uh Fitness essentially he
[19:39] said something that really stuck with me
[19:41] which was that the number of different
[19:43] workouts that people can do out there
[19:45] body weight workouts work with weights
[19:47] with machines you can run far you can
[19:49] run shorter distances more quickly you
[19:51] know you can do planks you know situps
[19:53] so many variations on exercise routines
[19:58] but what he very clearly stated was that
[20:01] there are only a few core adaptations
[20:03] that the body can undergo that lead to
[20:06] these byproducts that we call lower
[20:08] blood pressure enhanced endurance
[20:10] improved strength improved uh
[20:11] neuromuscular function improved brain
[20:13] function for that matter it sounds to me
[20:16] like there are a lot of parallels in
[20:17] creating the healthy psychological self
[20:21] so what are the core components that I
[20:23] and others should think about in terms
[20:25] of understanding I think he described
[20:27] them as the structure of the self and
[20:29] the functions of the self again just to
[20:31] draw a parallel if we were talking about
[20:32] physical health we'd say okay there's
[20:33] connections between nerves and muscle
[20:35] that allows us to move our limbs if you
[20:37] apply a certain amount of resistance you
[20:39] get a certain adaptation which is the
[20:40] the neuromuscular connection get
[20:41] stronger the muscle might get bigger or
[20:43] just stronger Etc flexibility you know
[20:46] you just push your range of motion just
[20:48] a little bit into discomfort you do that
[20:50] we it so happens to be the case that you
[20:52] do that for just a couple of minutes
[20:54] each day over the course of about a week
[20:55] or so you get a significant increase in
[20:57] flexibility okay so it's all very clear
[20:59] in the physical domain in the
[21:00] psychological domain I hear you telling
[21:02] us that the action steps that we all
[21:04] should be taking in order to be the
[21:06] happiest version of ourselves by
[21:08] achieving agency and gratitude is to
[21:10] explore the structure of self and the
[21:12] function of self so if you could tell us
[21:15] about what is the structure of self like
[21:18] what goes into Andrew being Andrew and
[21:20] Paul being Paul and whoever The Listener
[21:22] is into being who they are what is that
[21:25] and what is the function of self how how
[21:28] does a Psy Christ think about that how
[21:30] should we think about that okay if I
[21:32] could start maybe to set the stage for
[21:34] that right by pointing out that as we go
[21:38] up the hierarchy right of Health right
[21:42] everything should get simpler right not
[21:44] more complicated right if you think
[21:46] about physical health right there's so
[21:48] much complexity on the initial levels
[21:51] right so we think about you know your
[21:54] physical health status versus mine right
[21:55] it's going to be different right we're
[21:56] going to have different cardiac function
[21:58] and muscle function and pulmonary
[21:59] function and if we're going to be
[22:01] healthy we could do a lot of different
[22:02] things right there might be a whole set
[22:04] of choices that would work well for you
[22:06] different choices that would work for me
[22:08] and we can gauge intensity timing
[22:10] frequency right it's very complicated
[22:13] when we're on the the lower levels of
[22:16] the hierarchy as we get higher up let's
[22:18] say you and I both do the right things
[22:20] right then what happens we both have
[22:22] endurance right we both have some
[22:24] strength we're both robust right things
[22:26] are getting simpler because we're we're
[22:29] we're approaching the unique
[22:31] idiosyncrasies in all of us right and we
[22:33] have to look at that and look at that in
[22:34] a very specific way but what we're
[22:36] trying to get to is is something that's
[22:39] common for all of us so stamina for
[22:42] example in physical health and endurance
[22:44] right and agency and gratitude in mental
[22:47] health right so then if we go and we
[22:49] look and we look at the structure of the
[22:52] self and the function of self we find
[22:54] that there's more complexity but that it
[22:56] is also understandable I mean there's
[22:58] tremendous complexity in the body just
[23:00] as there's tremendous complexity in the
[23:02] mind and we can understand what is the
[23:06] structure of self what is the function
[23:08] of self and we can look at that and
[23:10] assess that in the same way we would
[23:12] physical health parameters so that we
[23:14] arrive at the place we want to be be it
[23:17] endurance or agency or gratitude so
[23:21] structure of self right we all have an
[23:24] unconscious mind right and we pay so
[23:27] little attention to this part of us that
[23:30] really is the biological supercomputer
[23:33] right so millions of things are going on
[23:36] all the time like in every Split Second
[23:38] so for example I can say these words
[23:40] right you can listen to the words you
[23:42] can say things back and I can listen
[23:44] right they're millions and millions of
[23:46] things going on under the surface much
[23:48] of which comes from either biological
[23:51] predispositions right or habits over
[23:54] time right thought processes patterns
[23:57] right so this unconscious mind this
[23:59] supercomputer is doing all of these
[24:02] things like you know at the speed of
[24:04] light right there are electrical and
[24:05] chemical signals and you know multiple
[24:08] Pathways as common as complicated as
[24:10] super highway systems that then get
[24:12] Consolidated and communicate with others
[24:14] right and then what comes up from all of
[24:17] that is the conscious mind so imagine an
[24:20] iceberg right and it's a really really
[24:23] big Iceberg right and and we see the
[24:26] part above the surface right that's the
[24:28] conscious mind right but there's a huge
[24:31] part of this Iceberg maybe 95% of it
[24:34] that's underneath the water right that
[24:37] there's this hulking mass that we don't
[24:39] see that's the unconscious mind right
[24:41] and it's feeding up to the conscious
[24:43] mind which is a much smaller part of our
[24:47] brain function right but it's the part
[24:49] that we're aware of right it's sitting
[24:51] on top of all the unconscious things
[24:53] which are extremely important but then
[24:56] we become aware so that we can engage in
[24:59] the real world in order for us to have
[25:00] this conversation the millions of things
[25:02] per second have to be going on
[25:04] underneath the surface so that you and I
[25:06] as conscious eyes right as conscious
[25:09] selves Can Ride Along on top of it so
[25:12] that's the part of the iceberg that's
[25:13] above the water it's the conscious self
[25:16] then imagine that the conscious self is
[25:20] girded by by uh a a set of um you know
[25:25] long uh tendrils that come out from
[25:28] under the w water right that there are
[25:30] defense mechanisms that are unconscious
[25:32] to us that sort of GD the conscious mind
[25:35] so do we rationalize automatically do we
[25:38] avoid automatically do we act out
[25:40] automatically are these things in Us in
[25:43] ways that we can observe and change but
[25:46] that are there to try and protect the
[25:49] conscious mind from the the slings and
[25:52] arrows of the world around us right so
[25:54] if you imagine there's the big part of
[25:56] the iceberg under the water the
[25:57] unconscious mind the conscious mind is
[25:59] riding on top of it but the conscious
[26:01] mind that part sticking out of the water
[26:03] is vulnerable right so imagine that
[26:05] there's a defensive structure then that
[26:07] arises from the part of the iceberg
[26:10] that's underwater that is there to
[26:12] defend and protect the conscious mind so
[26:15] when you say to defend and protect when
[26:18] you say that the conscious mind is
[26:20] vulnerable what do you mean do you mean
[26:22] that it's vulnerable to physical attack
[26:25] or that it's vulnerable to us realizing
[26:27] that we're just a neurons that are
[26:29] clicking away underneath like in other
[26:31] words where does the vulnerability of
[26:33] the conscious mind really reside um not
[26:36] physically where does it reside but you
[26:37] know what am I so worried about in terms
[26:40] of my safety I mean right now we're in a
[26:42] room I feel pretty safe um I don't think
[26:44] you're going to attack me verbally or
[26:46] physically I suppose it's possible that
[26:48] could happen but it seems like a very
[26:50] distant possibility So when you say that
[26:52] these defenses are there to protect us
[26:54] from some sort of awareness what
[26:56] awareness are we trying to avoid so the
[26:59] the vulnerability of the of the
[27:01] conscious mind is to fear confusion
[27:05] despair right there's so many things
[27:07] that that we can fear right some people
[27:09] are afraid of snakes or spiders some
[27:11] people are afraid of death some people
[27:13] are afraid of health issues that could
[27:15] come to them or to people they love we
[27:17] can get confused and not know what
[27:19] decisions to make and how to navigate
[27:21] the world and how to be who we want to
[27:22] be to ourselves and to others right we
[27:24] can feel tremendously vulnerable and
[27:27] despairing if we lose others or you know
[27:30] we start to see things happening in the
[27:32] world around us that that that we don't
[27:34] like right we start to feel like what
[27:35] will happen to the planet we live on
[27:37] where there'll be War where I live will
[27:39] my children be safe right there's so
[27:42] much that we need to protect ourselves
[27:44] again so that vulnerable part of of us
[27:48] right the part of the iceberg sticking
[27:50] out above the water needs a defensive
[27:53] structure around it to protect it
[27:55] against the vulnerability of fear
[27:57] confusion despair right and because the
[28:01] conscious mind is is sticking out of the
[28:03] water with a defensive structure around
[28:05] it right it is the the raw material from
[28:09] which we create our character structure
[28:11] so the character structure is all of
[28:14] that the part under the water the part
[28:15] above the water the defensive structure
[28:18] so imagine like a nest around all of
[28:20] that and that's the character structure
[28:23] that we utilize to interface with the
[28:26] world right so the character structure
[28:28] is it's like the thing that I'm using
[28:30] right it's like if you're driving
[28:31] somewhere in a car right the car is the
[28:33] thing that you're using to go there
[28:35] right the character structure is the
[28:37] thing that we're using to interface with
[28:39] the world so for example how trusting am
[28:42] I versus suspicious right how readily do
[28:45] I come to make friends with people right
[28:48] how uh how much do I act out if I'm
[28:51] frustrated right how much do I um you
[28:54] know exclaim something negative right as
[28:56] opposed to holding it inside of me how
[28:58] much do I rationalize if something isn't
[29:01] going well do I want to look at it and
[29:02] maybe see that it is so that I don't
[29:04] have to face it right how much do I
[29:06] avoid problems in the world around me
[29:09] how much do I exercise altruism right
[29:12] these are all the ways in which we're
[29:14] engaging with the world around us and
[29:16] this determines the self imagine that
[29:19] the self then grows out of this Nest
[29:22] from the the character structure that we
[29:24] use to interface with the world and the
[29:26] decisions that we make so if our
[29:28] character structure is it's the thing
[29:30] through which we engage with the world
[29:34] then we're enacting right what is inside
[29:37] of us right what we've determined
[29:39] through our unconscious mind our
[29:40] conscious mind our defense mechanism
[29:42] there's a certain us that that comes at
[29:44] the world in a certain way and if we're
[29:46] more or less trusting more or less
[29:48] avoidant we rationalize more or less
[29:51] these are the factors that determine
[29:53] like where do where do our lives go
[29:55] right because on top of all of this
[29:57] imagine that the nest of the character
[29:59] structure around all of this grows from
[30:02] it the self right the product of the
[30:04] feelings inside the things that we know
[30:06] about ourselves and don't know about
[30:08] ourselves the decisions that all of it
[30:10] leads to so I may choose to be for
[30:13] example more trusting and that may bring
[30:15] an opportunity to me that I wouldn't
[30:17] have otherwise had right I may choose to
[30:19] be more trusting and it may bring risk
[30:22] to me that I wouldn't otherwise have had
[30:24] so we want to be as healthy as we can as
[30:27] knowledgeable of ourselves and the world
[30:29] around us so that it's safe for us to
[30:33] have a healthy character structure
[30:35] through which we can engage in the world
[30:37] around us with a sense of prudence right
[30:39] taking reasonable risks right not too
[30:42] little so that we shut ourselves down
[30:44] and maybe end up despairing not so much
[30:47] that that scary things can happen to us
[30:49] and we end up fearful right but the idea
[30:52] that if we know ourselves well the
[30:54] character structure is healthy right
[30:57] because it's built upon a structure of
[30:59] self and a function of self that are
[31:01] healthy and out of it is coming
[31:03] empowerment right and empowerment and
[31:05] humility right that then lead us to
[31:07] agency and gratitude right the idea here
[31:10] is that this is the character structure
[31:13] that we create that can then interface
[31:16] with the world in a way that's good for
[31:18] us and good for the world around us that
[31:20] leads us to be able to live in much more
[31:22] Harmony inside of ourselves and outside
[31:25] of ourselves so if I understand
[31:27] correctly defense mechanisms that grow
[31:30] up out of this portion of the iceberg
[31:33] that we're calling the unconscious mind
[31:35] they protect our conscious self in ways
[31:38] that can be adaptive or that can be
[31:41] maladaptive in other words defenses can
[31:43] be healthier they can be unhealthy yes
[31:46] and perhaps in a in a few minutes we can
[31:48] get into what a healthy versus an
[31:50] unhealthy defense looks like but the way
[31:53] you describe character structure sounds
[31:56] to me like an array of contextual
[32:00] dispositions I don't want to add
[32:02] unnecessarily um complex language but it
[32:06] sounds to me like a bunch of
[32:07] dispositions like like if I'm walking
[32:09] into the office where I know everybody
[32:11] and I see familiar faces there's no
[32:13] reason for me to be on guard if I trust
[32:15] those people but if I'm walking down a a
[32:18] street at night that I'm not familiar
[32:20] with and and I'm starting to get the
[32:22] sense that you know this neighborhood
[32:23] might not be the best it makes sense for
[32:24] me to be on relatively high alert so
[32:27] different dis positions depending on
[32:29] different conditions I can't help but
[32:31] mention my uh Bulldog Costello who had
[32:34] basically three dispositions it was
[32:37] asleep but in all seriousness the second
[32:39] one was um kind of bored the Bulldog
[32:43] face is kind of bored or if something
[32:45] was given to him that he liked or if we
[32:47] were doing something he liked Delight he
[32:49] Bas had three dispositions as far as I
[32:50] could tell um I think one of the reasons
[32:52] we like dogs so much or that many of us
[32:54] like dogs so much is that their
[32:56] decisions are very predictable take him
[32:59] to the park he's happy unless he
[33:01] happened to be ill that day which was
[33:02] rare um you know feed him he's happy
[33:05] right there wasn't a lot of uh I don't
[33:07] like this particular meal or I don't
[33:08] like this particular park or this Bean
[33:11] fris doesn't smell so good to me you
[33:13] know there's a it was so simple and and
[33:16] yet people are very complex right I I I
[33:18] can look at myself and say okay what
[33:20] like what is my character structure
[33:21] character structur is certain things I
[33:23] like certain things I dislike certain
[33:24] things really irritate me certain
[33:27] environments and people I just lighten
[33:29] okay so is the definition of a healthy
[33:31] character structure one in which the
[33:35] dispositions match the context perfectly
[33:39] I mean I don't know how any of us could
[33:40] be like that but is is that sort of the
[33:42] ideal much in the same way that um you
[33:45] know we could probably arrive at at an
[33:49] ideal degree of stamina that one could
[33:51] have I mean some people want run
[33:53] ultramarathons you know 100 miles or
[33:55] more some people want to run a marathon
[33:57] some people like me don't really desire
[33:58] to run a marathon but I want to be able
[33:59] to run a mile if I need to without being
[34:02] completely exhausted and injured so you
[34:04] know when we when we ask ourselves about
[34:06] character structure are we asking
[34:08] ourselves about context driven
[34:11] dispositions and you know how do we
[34:13] start to evaluate that for ourselves
[34:14] right I think because we're more
[34:16] complicated I think it's not
[34:18] dispositions as much as it's
[34:20] predispositions right so so in the
[34:22] example that you gave right you have a
[34:24] certain predisposition to be either
[34:27] trusting or wary right and and you're
[34:29] and that's healthy in you right so when
[34:32] you come into a setting where there's
[34:34] not a a good reason to feel mistrustful
[34:37] to feel anxious to feel vulnerable right
[34:40] then you feel at ease right so you walk
[34:42] into the work setting there are people
[34:43] you know there're people you like
[34:45] everything is okay right you have a
[34:47] different pre predisposition when the
[34:49] context is different right so if the
[34:51] context could bring a lack of safety
[34:53] then you respond accordingly with a lack
[34:55] of safety right but but it's possible
[34:58] certainly those predispositions can be
[35:00] in unhealthy places right so for example
[35:04] you might have been traumatized in a
[35:06] certain way or you might approach the
[35:08] world in a certain way because of Prior
[35:10] experience that you may not register as
[35:13] trauma but it may be that within you is
[35:15] a predisposition to be mistrustful so
[35:18] you could walk into a room of people
[35:20] that you know of people who've never met
[35:21] you any harm and still feel unsafe right
[35:25] now this happens most often after trauma
[35:28] but there are other ways people can get
[35:30] to that where the predisposition isn't
[35:32] so healthy the converse is true too
[35:35] right there are people who can have too
[35:36] much of what's called an omnipotence
[35:38] defense and then they don't recognize
[35:40] danger when danger is around them so the
[35:42] idea the character structure that Nest
[35:45] right that's built around the defensive
[35:47] structure and the conscious mind that's
[35:48] sitting on top of the part of the
[35:50] iceberg the unconscious mind underwater
[35:53] right it's that Nest that is interfacing
[35:56] with the world through a whole whole set
[35:59] of
[36:00] predispositions I'd like to take a brief
[36:02] break and acknowledge one of our
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[37:28] think most of us are familiar with
[37:30] assessing and assigning names to the
[37:33] character structures of others and at
[37:35] least for most of us we do that with no
[37:37] professional training or authority right
[37:39] we say that person is great they're
[37:41] super nice person's a jerk they're like
[37:45] weird you know etc
[37:47] etc I think very few of us are familiar
[37:51] with assessing our own character
[37:52] structure right right and I have to
[37:54] presume that some of what happens when
[37:57] somebody comes to you as a psychiatrist
[37:59] or to a psychologist is that certain
[38:01] questions are asked and certain
[38:02] narratives are told that start to reveal
[38:05] to the clinician the character structure
[38:07] and perhaps from there some of the
[38:10] possible defense mechanisms and uh you
[38:13] know structure of the person's
[38:14] unconscious mind and conscious mind that
[38:16] obviously are unaware to them but would
[38:17] be clear to the
[38:19] clinician much in the same way that if
[38:21] somebody goes into the doctor and says
[38:22] you know I don't feel well they're going
[38:24] to start probing with questions or
[38:26] they're going to put you know take a
[38:28] take a listen to their breathing listen
[38:29] to their heart right I me get out the
[38:31] stethoscope and figure it out these are
[38:32] the probes whereas that the psychiatrist
[38:34] or psychologist uses words and language
[38:36] to probe yes so what are the sorts of
[38:40] aspects of character structure that we
[38:43] can be aware of in ourselves you know I
[38:46] in other words um should we be asking
[38:49] what type of character do I have
[38:51] dependent on one circumstance or another
[38:55] um should we ask ourselves what sorts of
[38:57] defenses we have and maybe this would be
[38:58] a good opportunity to um address this
[39:01] issue of what are healthy versus
[39:03] unhealthy defenses um because it sounds
[39:06] to me if I understand correctly that the
[39:08] defense mechanisms are a very strong
[39:10] component in determining what our
[39:11] character structure is right because the
[39:14] defense mechanisms are unconscious right
[39:17] the character structure that Nest around
[39:19] the defenses and the conscious mind
[39:21] through which we interface with the
[39:23] world right is very very complicated so
[39:25] there are as many character structures
[39:27] as there are human beings right so it's
[39:29] very very complicated but there are
[39:31] factors that are consistently relevant
[39:34] across people and get identified as such
[39:37] so so one example would be isolation
[39:40] versus affiliation right so does a
[39:42] person tend to group with others right
[39:45] or does the person tend to avoid
[39:47] grouping right and and go about uh
[39:50] thoughts tasks approaches to life in a
[39:53] in a more singular manner right so it's
[39:56] just one element not making value judg
[39:58] about it cuz it can be good or bad on
[40:00] either end of the spectrum right so
[40:02] we're just saying what are the factors
[40:03] so am I more affiliative or do I tend to
[40:06] isolate and be more singular that's just
[40:08] one example right another example could
[40:11] be things like for example use of humor
[40:13] right uh does a person use humor and in
[40:15] what way right does a person use hum
[40:18] humor to deflect uh discomfort in
[40:20] negative situations does a person use
[40:22] humor in order to belittle others or to
[40:25] belittle themselves or does a person not
[40:27] use humor right so there these aspects
[40:29] of character structure and so much
[40:31] research has been done on this over the
[40:33] years to determine what is most Salient
[40:36] right in this this thing that we use in
[40:39] order to interface with the world around
[40:41] us up out of which grows our
[40:45] self that makes good sense and and it
[40:48] makes me want to revise a little bit
[40:50] what I asked about before which is I
[40:52] said that when it comes to an exam of
[40:55] physical health we measure blood
[40:56] pressure measure um uh breathing Etc
[41:00] maybe even a blood test look at some
[41:02] biomarkers but what you're describing is
[41:05] a little bit more analogous to um The
[41:07] Physician uh addressing a patient who's
[41:09] having some physical discomfort or
[41:11] malaise and saying tell me about your
[41:13] day you know what do you do when you get
[41:15] up in the morning if the person says
[41:17] well you know I I drink a you know a
[41:19] quarter pint of Vodka it's a very
[41:21] different answer then you know I go
[41:22] outside and get sunlight in my eyes
[41:24] drink a glass of water and maybe have a
[41:25] cup of coffee right you know um or if
[41:28] somebody says I have six espresso if I
[41:31] understand correctly the character
[41:32] structure is better revealed by
[41:35] exploring the action states that
[41:37] somebody engages in isolation versus
[41:40] engagement um as opposed to a read of
[41:43] one specific biomarker um it's character
[41:46] structure brought to life right
[41:50] yes immediately am thinking about movies
[41:53] and books where we learn so much about
[41:55] somebody through a observing the way
[41:58] that they interact with people in in
[42:01] very um very potent ways so for instance
[42:03] I can think of countless movies where
[42:06] you learn a ton about somebody in the
[42:08] first scene simply because of the way
[42:10] they react to somebody who you know Cuts
[42:12] them off on in traffic they just explode
[42:15] okay well then we think of that person
[42:16] as reactive from that point on unless
[42:18] there's a significant amount of material
[42:20] to revise that but it's in the action of
[42:23] of of getting explosive and cursing Etc
[42:26] as opposed to if they just kind of like
[42:27] laugh it off or laugh at themselves or
[42:30] blame someone within their own vehicle
[42:32] or something like that so is are those
[42:34] the sorts of things that a clinician
[42:37] like yourself is listening for when
[42:38] somebody says you know I don't feel well
[42:40] and you say well tell me about what's
[42:41] going on lately and they start
[42:43] describing what's going on in their life
[42:45] and are you listening for those places
[42:48] where the def the defense mechanisms can
[42:50] are start start to reveal themselves the
[42:52] character structure starts to reveal
[42:54] itself through these action steps that
[42:56] the person seems to be taking is it yeah
[42:59] yeah I mean maybe one way of looking at
[43:01] at character structure is that it's it's
[43:03] potentialities and predispositions right
[43:06] that there's so much that that's latent
[43:08] that then interfaces with events like a
[43:10] person's stuck in traffic how does that
[43:12] person respond if that person weren't
[43:14] stuck in traffic there wouldn't be a
[43:16] response to it right so so there
[43:17] potentialities there predispositions and
[43:20] then we live through enacting them as
[43:23] we're moving then through life right and
[43:26] the the attempts to understand so using
[43:29] the physical health parallel right if
[43:31] you came in and you said I don't feel
[43:33] well right you know we might run a lot
[43:35] of tests right we might get an MRI or a
[43:38] CAT scan or even putting the stethoscope
[43:40] and listening to what's inside of you
[43:42] those we could say are unconscious
[43:43] things like you know you're not aware of
[43:45] what the Imaging may show or the blood
[43:47] tests may show or how your lungs may
[43:48] sound when someone puts a stethoscope on
[43:51] them right so so a clinician if you're
[43:53] trying to understand and help someone
[43:55] then you do want to look for those
[43:57] things right you want to look for the
[43:58] things that are underneath the surface
[44:00] but that but that can be very very
[44:03] important right you also want to look at
[44:05] everything that's on the surface right
[44:07] so if you're if you're engaging with
[44:09] someone you're engaging with the self
[44:11] right the self that grows out of the
[44:14] character structure Nest right so by
[44:17] engaging with and and doing one's best
[44:19] to understand the self then you learn
[44:22] about what is underneath of it right so
[44:24] I may then learn well how do you respond
[44:26] in certain situations right just like I
[44:28] could ask you questions well when do you
[44:30] not feel well or right so you're asking
[44:32] a person questions because the idea is
[44:35] to understand elements of the character
[44:37] structure so how do you respond in
[44:39] certain situations what's going on
[44:40] inside of you right what do you
[44:42] understand about yourself and what do
[44:43] you not understand about yourself right
[44:45] how do you bring yourself to bear in the
[44:47] world around you so there's a similar
[44:49] process going on but here we're trying
[44:52] to understand the self and the
[44:55] understanding of the self can help us
[44:56] understand the component underneath of
[44:59] the self because that's where we're
[45:00] going to go to make things better right
[45:02] the idea is there shouldn't have to be
[45:04] mystery or certainly not mystery any
[45:07] more than there is in physical health I
[45:08] mean you know rarely someone comes in
[45:10] and they're really not feeling well and
[45:13] and a whole set of everything that
[45:15] should be done is done right Labs
[45:17] physical examination history Imaging
[45:20] right and and you still just don't know
[45:22] right I mean sometimes that can happen
[45:23] but it's very rare and the same should
[45:26] apply here that if we're examining a
[45:29] self right and we're looking for the
[45:31] components out of which that self comes
[45:34] right then we should be able to
[45:36] understand well enough to go back to the
[45:39] components of self and to make change so
[45:43] that the self is in a better place right
[45:45] and and that self can then be empowered
[45:48] can feel humility right can then come at
[45:51] life through the altruism and gratitude
[45:54] that we seek because again you show me
[45:56] someone who's coming at life through
[45:58] altruism and gratitude and is not happy
[46:00] with their life and you'll be showing me
[46:02] something I've never seen before
[46:03] something entirely new so if we want to
[46:07] get there we want to know how to get
[46:09] there and there are ways as there should
[46:11] be that parallel physical health that
[46:14] aren't mysterious that we can come at to
[46:17] make understanding and change I'm
[46:20] wondering about the role of anxiety in
[46:22] all of this the reason I ask about
[46:25] anxiety is that you said said that so
[46:27] much of character structure is uh
[46:30] determined by a set of predispositions
[46:32] and potentialities mhm and earlier we
[46:35] were talking about example of either
[46:37] being afraid or unafraid in particular
[46:39] environments or feeling like we can walk
[46:41] into a classroom and learn or whether or
[46:43] not we're overly concerned about what
[46:45] people think about us or both right it
[46:46] could be a mix um whether or not we can
[46:50] Embrace novel environments in safe and
[46:52] adaptive ways whether or not we can grow
[46:54] from them as opposed to whether or not
[46:56] we can be over taken by them or perhaps
[46:58] even injured harmed psychologically
[47:00] physically or
[47:02] both anxiety to me is is a very basic
[47:05] function I think about it in terms of
[47:06] the autonomic nervous system and degrees
[47:08] of excitability and Etc an ability to
[47:11] sleep at night an ability to wake up
[47:13] feeling reasonably good but not have a
[47:14] panic attack but anxiety to me does seem
[47:18] like a key node in all of this meaning
[47:22] you know I most people including myself
[47:25] I don't walk around thinking about my
[47:28] character structure I don't walk around
[47:29] thinking about how I'm going to behave
[47:31] in a bunch of hypothetical
[47:33] environments think about the fact that
[47:36] most mornings I wake up and I feel
[47:38] pretty good to be quite honest not as
[47:40] good as I would like to feel necessarely
[47:42] because anything's wrong but because I
[47:44] think I'm wired to be a little bit more
[47:45] on the anxious side and to predict
[47:48] what's going to happen next and what
[47:49] needs to be done and so until I'm
[47:50] actually engaging in certain behaviors
[47:52] that anxiety hums a little bit high for
[47:54] me the gears turn a little bit faster
[47:56] perhaps than than I would like when I
[47:58] wake up in the morning but once I engage
[48:00] I feel like the the speed of that gear
[48:02] turning uh matches the demands of Life
[48:05] pretty well I feel um agency okay um so
[48:10] if you don't mind could we explore this
[48:12] this feeling of anxiety or lack of
[48:14] anxiety that I think people are pretty
[48:16] familiar with within themselves at
[48:18] different times of day and under
[48:19] different conditions because to me it
[48:21] seems like a um an interesting lens to
[48:24] to explore this notion of character
[48:26] structure and defenses is anxiety a
[48:28] healthy defense or an unhealthy defense
[48:30] or does it simply depend on the
[48:33] circumstances well we all have some
[48:36] degree of anxiety in us right we all
[48:39] have some awareness that like we're
[48:41] navigating the world and like not
[48:44] everything is is perfect right this is
[48:45] not Nirvana so there's some anxiety
[48:47] within us and the thought is that that
[48:49] anxiety can keep us Vigilant about the
[48:52] things we should be vigilant about you
[48:53] know health and safety right but that
[48:56] too much anxiety then becomes
[48:58] counterproductive and we can look at
[49:00] this in a very regimented way right so
[49:03] so some anxiety makes sense right it
[49:05] keeps us being careful it keeps you
[49:07] keeps you being careful as you're
[49:09] pulling out of a driveway for example
[49:10] right so okay it can be it can be
[49:13] absolutely fine but let's say you bring
[49:15] something to clinical attention that
[49:16] isn't absolutely fine right let's say I
[49:19] didn't know you and you come in we have
[49:20] the example that that we that you used
[49:22] before where where you you walk into
[49:25] work and there's a group of people that
[49:26] you that you know well and like right
[49:29] let's say you told me when I walk in
[49:31] there I I feel very anxious right I
[49:33] don't feel like things are okay right so
[49:36] then we would go through we say that's
[49:38] not good right maybe it's impacting your
[49:39] professional life things are not going
[49:41] well like you really want this to change
[49:43] because it's impacting your life in a
[49:44] negative way and we say okay let's look
[49:47] at that from the perspective of
[49:49] structure of self right so first
[49:52] unconscious right is it that just
[49:54] genetically are you built with just High
[49:57] levels of anxiety right so we could
[49:59] learn okay have you always been anxious
[50:00] like this is this has this always been
[50:02] in your life since you were a little kid
[50:03] no matter what so we're looking for
[50:05] biological nature so to speak variables
[50:08] we might also look for things that have
[50:11] happened to you that are lodged in your
[50:13] unconscious mind right is there trauma
[50:15] that you haven't processed right that
[50:17] now is underneath the surface but is
[50:19] spinning off more anxiety right let's
[50:22] say you tell me oh it it wasn't that
[50:24] long ago you started being anxious ah
[50:26] like did something happen happen like
[50:28] did you walk into a group of people and
[50:29] I don't know you tripped and you felt
[50:30] bad about something right and then then
[50:32] you get more anxious right so are there
[50:34] things going on underneath the surface
[50:36] that are impacting you like let's let's
[50:38] look into that right because that's the
[50:40] biggest part of the iceberg right then
[50:42] your conscious mind we could start
[50:44] thinking about okay what what's going on
[50:47] what are you actively thinking about
[50:48] right so this is where sometimes
[50:50] cognitive behavioral techniques can can
[50:52] come into mind like are you thinking
[50:53] like oh no I'm scared it isn't going to
[50:55] go well right like are you having
[50:56] thoughts or the thoughts and making you
[50:57] more anxious right what's going on in
[50:59] your conscious mind right I would also
[51:01] be very interested in the defenses
[51:04] around you so for example do you tend to
[51:06] avoid right has this been getting worse
[51:09] for three months but but you just your
[51:12] mind wouldn't acknowledge it right and
[51:13] by the time you have to acknowledge it
[51:15] now it's really bad right or do you not
[51:17] avoid and like this started just started
[51:19] happening and you want to nip it in the
[51:20] bud right so I would be interested in
[51:23] the defense mechanisms right that are
[51:25] ging your conscious self and and I would
[51:27] be interested in the character structure
[51:29] what decisions are you then making like
[51:31] are you going anyway right are you
[51:34] having trouble so sometimes you avoid
[51:36] are you then making decisions that make
[51:38] you late and that causes problems how
[51:41] does it impact you once you're there are
[51:43] you engaging differently with people
[51:44] doing your work differently so I want to
[51:47] understand the character structure and
[51:48] ultimately you understand all of this by
[51:51] probing the self that's writing Along on
[51:54] top of it and then what is the
[51:56] experience of that self like do you see
[51:58] that okay this is a problem and I want
[52:00] to address it but like look I know that
[52:02] I'm good at what I do and you know I
[52:04] mean this isn't some like awful thing
[52:06] about me I just have to deal with it
[52:07] right or is your self impacted where you
[52:10] start thinking maybe I can't do this
[52:11] anymore I'm not good enough or you know
[52:13] we want to understand what's the
[52:15] experience of the self right and if we
[52:17] do all of that how is it that we don't
[52:20] get to a place where we can understand
[52:22] that anxiety right and we can make
[52:25] things better so just like in physical
[52:27] Health okay maybe we can't but that is a
[52:30] dramatic outlier if we bring ourselves
[52:33] to Bear we would say you should not have
[52:35] to have this in you right because it is
[52:38] something negative it is making
[52:39] unhappiness for you it is taking away
[52:42] from impowerment right and it's also
[52:44] taking away from humility right because
[52:47] if someone's beating up on themselves if
[52:48] you're beating up on yourself about it
[52:50] then that's not humility right then that
[52:52] that's being sort of falsely persecutory
[52:55] right this it's not an honest humility
[52:56] to that it leads us away from health so
[52:59] it's like we don't want it to be this
[53:00] way right because that is working
[53:03] against agency and gratitude so we can
[53:07] understand it and we can go after it and
[53:09] make it
[53:11] better one of the most common questions
[53:13] I get on the internet and I get a lot of
[53:16] questions
[53:17] is what can be done to improve
[53:20] confidence you know and I've thought a
[53:22] lot about that question and you know
[53:24] what is confidence in the context of
[53:26] what we're talking about now is one
[53:28] reasonable definition of confidence our
[53:30] ability to trust our predispositions and
[53:33] our
[53:35] potentialities enough that were we to
[53:38] encounter scenarios A through Z we feel
[53:41] pretty good that we would respond the
[53:43] right way in a way that um wouldn't
[53:47] threaten our conscious mind at a core
[53:49] level right you know that that we
[53:51] wouldn't um I I used to use the term and
[53:54] and joke a lot in my laboratory uh with
[53:57] the the phrase you know dissolve into a
[53:59] puddle of our own tears right it's kind
[54:00] of this like hyperbolic explanation of
[54:03] of what I think many people fear like
[54:05] they're going to be called upon to
[54:06] answer a question publicly or give a
[54:08] speech or they're going to be at a
[54:10] critical moment in a relationship or
[54:12] something and there and just everything
[54:14] is just going to go so badly wrong that
[54:16] it's just going to dissolve them as a
[54:17] person it's impossible right dissolve in
[54:20] a ble of our own tears is impossible but
[54:22] I think that's a fear that a lot of
[54:24] people live with because
[54:27] we can get into this a little bit later
[54:28] and we will I'm sure you know this
[54:30] notion of like protecting one's ego is
[54:32] seems really vital to to being a human
[54:34] being some level like we don't we don't
[54:36] want to dissolve into a puddle of our
[54:37] own tears so is confidence the ability
[54:39] to trust ourselves in a bunch of
[54:41] different
[54:42] contexts um and at the same time I I do
[54:47] have to raise the this notion of
[54:49] narcissism I think um uh you know this
[54:52] word gets thrown around a lot lately but
[54:55] it seems to me that any um truly
[54:57] psychologically healthy person would
[54:59] also not want to be the idiot that
[55:01] thinks that they're better than they
[55:03] actually are that's a um what are your
[55:06] thoughts on this well I agree with the
[55:08] things that you that you said about
[55:10] confidence except I would add two
[55:13] factors that I think are like really big
[55:15] big factors right right one being State
[55:18] dependence and the other being
[55:19] phenomenology right so think about the
[55:21] state dependence first right when we're
[55:24] talking about confidence it's it's not
[55:26] uniform
[55:27] right or it's not automatically uniform
[55:29] right so if so if you were to tell me oh
[55:31] oh I lack confidence right then I I want
[55:33] to understand is that across the board
[55:36] is like is that a way that you feel
[55:37] about yourself that like I I'm not good
[55:40] enough at anything for example right or
[55:43] do you lack confidence in a specific
[55:45] area right and this is often the case
[55:47] right and it's it's a huge difference
[55:49] right it says that person has the
[55:50] Machinery of confidence so to speak
[55:52] right they have the potentialities and
[55:54] the predispositions for confidence right
[55:57] when that character structure this
[55:59] self-built upon it is engaging with the
[56:01] world right but they're not able to
[56:03] bring it to bear in certain in a certain
[56:07] special situation so to speak so for
[56:09] some people for example the way we most
[56:11] often see this is like the carve out of
[56:13] romance right where because it's so
[56:16] emotionally Laden right and like
[56:18] rejection can feel so bad right that we
[56:20] can see people who are very confident in
[56:22] many many aspects of life but they are
[56:24] very defent about romance and they'll
[56:26] say oh it never works out for me or no
[56:28] one will ever like me right and and you
[56:30] see like that's not how that person
[56:32] actually feels right about themselves as
[56:35] a whole human being right which which
[56:38] which is then we are coming at how to
[56:40] make that better in a way that's very
[56:42] robust right we might say something like
[56:44] hey here's the good news is you have the
[56:46] tools and the Machinery that you need
[56:48] right you're confident in so many ways
[56:50] right in fact maybe in all ways except
[56:53] this one so let's go take a look at like
[56:56] why is that special right and then and
[56:59] that where are we we're back to is it
[57:01] something in the unconscious mind is it
[57:03] something in the in the conscious mind
[57:04] but how that person is engaging right so
[57:06] we have to understand what the state is
[57:10] and if the lack of confidence is State
[57:11] dependent if the person is not confident
[57:14] across the board then again we go back
[57:16] to the same we always go back to the
[57:18] same places to look right but then you
[57:20] might more think okay is is there an
[57:23] impact of childhood trauma or early life
[57:25] trauma that that took away from that
[57:28] person you know the their ability to to
[57:30] gain confidence right because if you
[57:32] have no confidence across the board
[57:34] there's a deeper problem right because
[57:36] there would be this something anyone can
[57:38] be good about at and feel confident in
[57:41] right so the state dependence is very
[57:43] important as is phenomenology so what is
[57:46] your experience of being confident if
[57:49] you tell me well I'm let's say in a
[57:52] different version of this example you
[57:54] say you know actually I'm I'm quite I
[57:56] feel quite confident when I when I walk
[57:59] into a room of of people I say okay I
[58:02] want to understand more about that too
[58:04] right because if I ask questions about
[58:06] that and you say well I feel confident
[58:08] because you know look I'm I'm a pretty
[58:11] smart person I can think on my feet I
[58:13] can I can deal well with with people if
[58:15] something doesn't go right I can recover
[58:18] from it like I've got you know it's why
[58:20] I feel confident you know and say okay
[58:22] that sounds pretty good if you say well
[58:24] I feel confident because I know that I'm
[58:26] better than than everybody right now we
[58:28] have a problem right right like that's
[58:30] not going to go well in other you know
[58:32] in other uh aspects of life and
[58:35] engagement like there's you know it's
[58:36] not going to lead to humility and
[58:37] gratitude like so so where's that coming
[58:39] from and again maybe there's a deeper
[58:41] problem right s about narcissism right
[58:44] which can be a a a reaction right which
[58:46] is a reaction to vulnerability right so
[58:49] then there's was called a reaction
[58:51] formation and now the person uh is
[58:53] actually deeply diffident right but
[58:56] present is very very confident and with
[58:58] a sense of superiority and that that's
[59:00] not a recipe for for happiness right so
[59:04] so in the in approaching it we we do
[59:07] want to understand all the things that
[59:08] you said what are the factors and the
[59:10] the set of predispositions and the set
[59:12] of potentialities but then what's the
[59:15] real world experience of that across
[59:17] situations and what is the person's
[59:19] experience of that inside which is why
[59:22] if we're going to understand and help
[59:23] people like that's the understand part
[59:25] right you know it's why the conveyor
[59:27] belt medicine you know doesn't work
[59:30] right in situations where we're dealing
[59:32] with human beings like mental health
[59:34] right we have to understand something
[59:36] about people to understand whatever
[59:39] they're telling us means otherwise you
[59:41] have no context so you have no knowledge
[59:44] another very common set of questions
[59:45] that I get that I believe is very
[59:47] directly related to this is about
[59:50] beliefs and internal narratives you know
[59:53] people ask me all the time how can can I
[59:57] change what I believe about
[59:59] myself and they also ask how can I
[1:00:01] change the script in my head how do I
[1:00:03] typically it's how do I shut down a
[1:00:05] particular narrative in my head this
[1:00:07] seems to fit very well in thinking about
[1:00:09] structure of self because as you pointed
[1:00:11] out you know the the self or the
[1:00:13] structure of self includes the
[1:00:15] unconscious mind you know what's going
[1:00:16] on below the surface of the water in
[1:00:18] this Iceberg model what's going on in
[1:00:20] the conscious mind that the conscious
[1:00:21] mind is protected by these defense
[1:00:24] mechanisms that grow up from the
[1:00:25] unconscious mind
[1:00:27] from that comes the character structure
[1:00:29] and then this thing that we call the
[1:00:30] self right right but when it comes to
[1:00:33] beliefs and internal narratives those
[1:00:34] seem to me things that people are pretty
[1:00:36] well aware of in fact the very example
[1:00:38] that people are asking me this all the
[1:00:39] time how to change beliefs internal
[1:00:41] narratives means they are aware of them
[1:00:43] it also suggests that for many people
[1:00:45] out there their beliefs about themselves
[1:00:47] and their internal narratives are not
[1:00:50] healthy or at least they don't feel are
[1:00:51] serving them well or that they are
[1:00:54] intrusive I don't know how open people
[1:00:56] are about their beliefs and internal
[1:00:57] narratives when they come to you in the
[1:00:59] in your clinical practice but um if you
[1:01:02] could tell us a little bit about beliefs
[1:01:04] and internal narratives and uh whether
[1:01:06] or not they are important to rewire and
[1:01:08] and and
[1:01:10] reset this part is extremely important
[1:01:13] right so imagine for example that I'm
[1:01:16] saying to myself over and over again
[1:01:18] that I'm a loser right or I'm not good
[1:01:20] enough right I mean imagine trying to go
[1:01:22] through life and someone else were
[1:01:24] saying that to you all the time right I
[1:01:26] mean it's worse when it's inside your
[1:01:27] own head right so what's going on inside
[1:01:30] of us our internal dialogue our internal
[1:01:32] narratives are extremely important and
[1:01:36] here's where we run into a very big
[1:01:38] problem is that we live in an era and in
[1:01:41] a culture that is very attuned to Rapid
[1:01:44] gratification right and all of this that
[1:01:47] we're talking about can change but it
[1:01:50] does not change quickly and it's amazing
[1:01:54] to me when you know you you'll see
[1:01:56] Insurance paradigms often right no
[1:01:58] matter what's going on with someone they
[1:02:00] have 10 sessions of cognitive behavioral
[1:02:02] treatment right if there's something
[1:02:04] like we're trying to change beliefs it's
[1:02:06] a guarantee of failure right because
[1:02:09] beliefs don't change that fast right so
[1:02:12] imagine for example that we you know you
[1:02:14] and I chose a word a random word and we
[1:02:17] decided to say it 500 times right we'
[1:02:20] each be saying it tonight right like
[1:02:21] it's not going to be out of our minds by
[1:02:23] tonight because we what took a random
[1:02:25] word and said it 500 times right so
[1:02:28] imagine that there's something that's
[1:02:30] highly emotionally Laden and we've said
[1:02:34] it thousands and thousands and thousands
[1:02:36] of times right it's not going to go away
[1:02:38] quickly right but it can go away and
[1:02:42] during the process of it atrophying
[1:02:45] right our lives can get better right
[1:02:47] this is the opposite of hopeless right
[1:02:49] it's actually very very encouraging but
[1:02:52] in a world that's rapid gratification
[1:02:54] right like how do we fix this how do we
[1:02:56] fix this now that doesn't acknowledge
[1:02:58] this we hear all the time that a person
[1:03:01] has failed therapy right like this is
[1:03:03] said all the time that person failed
[1:03:05] what does failed therapy mean right I
[1:03:06] mean I think therapy failed that person
[1:03:09] right but we we label like oh but person
[1:03:12] isn't better right but there are things
[1:03:13] going on inside of us that could take
[1:03:16] months and months or years to make
[1:03:18] better now again that's okay if we're
[1:03:20] aware of what's going on just the very
[1:03:23] fact that we understand and we're making
[1:03:24] change right helps us feel better about
[1:03:27] ourselves and more confident right that
[1:03:29] we can change all of this but we have to
[1:03:31] approach it in the right way so let's
[1:03:33] say that I'm telling myself over and
[1:03:36] over again um you're not going to get
[1:03:39] there right and let's say a place I want
[1:03:40] to go professionally right or no one's
[1:03:43] ever going to really want you right if
[1:03:44] if it's I'm looking for a romantic
[1:03:46] partner right so so imagine these things
[1:03:48] are going on and they're going on over
[1:03:50] and over again and you can imagine now
[1:03:53] that's it's intruded into the
[1:03:54] unconscious mind it's going on my
[1:03:56] conscious mind my defensive structure is
[1:03:58] Shifting in negative ways I'm becoming
[1:04:00] more avoidant like nothing about this is
[1:04:03] good and I want it to change and I want
[1:04:05] it to change to something that says like
[1:04:08] you can do it right or you're lovable
[1:04:11] right you can be a good partner to
[1:04:12] someone where so I want to change it
[1:04:14] right so imagine now when I start to
[1:04:17] make that change I'm blazing a path
[1:04:20] right and and I'm blazing a path where
[1:04:22] there wasn't a path before right and I
[1:04:24] can blaze a path and I can go through
[1:04:26] that path but that path is going to be
[1:04:29] nothing like maybe the four-lane highway
[1:04:32] right adjacent to me where the thing
[1:04:34] that I've been telling myself for years
[1:04:36] and years and years born of trauma right
[1:04:39] is is you know is going back and forth
[1:04:42] right it's got a four-lane highway I'm
[1:04:44] cutting a path right but over time you
[1:04:47] cut that path more and more you tread
[1:04:49] that path more and more you take energy
[1:04:51] towards that path it becomes better now
[1:04:54] let's imagine like the path is well LED
[1:04:56] and it's 12T wide and maybe we can pave
[1:04:58] the path so more more traffic so to
[1:05:00] speak goes down it and we're taking
[1:05:02] energy away from that four-lane Highway
[1:05:04] and maybe it starts to be overgrown a
[1:05:06] little bit and there cracks in the road
[1:05:08] like we can change all of that but we
[1:05:11] have to understand what's going on and
[1:05:13] and identify it like what is going on
[1:05:15] inside of me uh what do I make of it
[1:05:17] right how do I understand the process of
[1:05:19] change how do I increase my empowerment
[1:05:22] during the process of change if we come
[1:05:24] at it the right way all of this can be
[1:05:27] changed it's not hardwired in us it's
[1:05:30] just very very strongly reinforced the
[1:05:34] same way our brains are built this way
[1:05:35] so like we don't forget our own names
[1:05:37] right you know we don't forget where we
[1:05:39] live you know back when we were hunting
[1:05:41] and Gathering we don't we don't forget
[1:05:43] you know where where the good fruits are
[1:05:45] right I mean this goes on in human life
[1:05:47] now like we have to remember things it's
[1:05:48] very very important if something is has
[1:05:51] high emotional veilance and we've
[1:05:53] thought it a lot that we don't forget it
[1:05:55] but that mechanism gets hijacked by
[1:05:57] things that are not good for us and we
[1:06:00] can take it back but not if we don't
[1:06:03] understand what are the tools or the
[1:06:05] questions that you uh give or ask of
[1:06:09] patients in order to help them along
[1:06:11] that pathway um because I totally agree
[1:06:14] that changing beliefs and internal
[1:06:16] narratives is very very hard uh just one
[1:06:19] quick example that meshes with the
[1:06:21] physical health realm I have a a friend
[1:06:23] and colleague he's a very accomplished
[1:06:25] scien who was very overweight for a long
[1:06:28] period of time he finally made some
[1:06:30] behavioral changes that allowed him to
[1:06:32] lose I think it was in upwards of 80
[1:06:34] pounds a significant amount of weight
[1:06:36] felt much better looked much
[1:06:38] better he just delighted in his ability
[1:06:41] to do that but then started to reveal to
[1:06:44] me that he was deathly afraid that he
[1:06:48] was going to lose control and start
[1:06:51] eating the way he was before and stop
[1:06:52] exercising in a way that would return
[1:06:55] him to his previous weight and feelings
[1:06:57] of
[1:06:58] Malay and I said well all the things
[1:07:01] you're doing are in the direction of
[1:07:03] Health none of what you're doing speaks
[1:07:05] to the possibility of this all crumbling
[1:07:08] this was the dissolve into a puddle of
[1:07:09] my own tears kind of narrative but at
[1:07:11] this point coming from him and he just
[1:07:14] said I know but despite doing all the
[1:07:17] right things I'm still incredibly afraid
[1:07:20] that it's going to happen it was as if
[1:07:22] the the beliefs and the internal
[1:07:23] narratives hadn't changed despite the
[1:07:26] fact that he was engaging in the world
[1:07:28] differently and more positively uh I
[1:07:30] haven't checked in with him recently to
[1:07:31] find out where he's at with this now
[1:07:33] several years later he has kept off most
[1:07:36] of the weight not all of it gained a
[1:07:37] little bit back but he's still far
[1:07:39] healthier than than he ever was so
[1:07:40] hopefully he's experience some relief
[1:07:43] but you know what do you tell a patient
[1:07:46] who uh is saying you know I've got this
[1:07:48] Loop in my head that tells me I'm not
[1:07:50] good enough or that even when things are
[1:07:52] going well they're going to return to
[1:07:54] that state that I fear so much once
[1:07:56] again this kind of like you know lack of
[1:08:00] agency right just lack of agency lack of
[1:08:02] agency lack of
[1:08:04] empowerment what what sorts of practical
[1:08:07] tools can can one give themselves or
[1:08:09] that you would provide to somebody no
[1:08:12] matter what is behind what's going on in
[1:08:15] that person's mind it's
[1:08:17] addressable but you don't know what it
[1:08:19] is and how to address it until we ask
[1:08:23] the question of what's going on inside
[1:08:26] right so if he's afraid that he's going
[1:08:29] to gain all that weight back right and
[1:08:31] he has a history that if significant
[1:08:34] negative things happen he throws
[1:08:36] self-care to the wind right that then
[1:08:40] we'd come at it through that pattern
[1:08:42] right because he would have a very you
[1:08:44] know he'd have a good reason to be
[1:08:45] worried right because this pattern of
[1:08:48] something bad happens and I can't I
[1:08:49] don't take care of myself for 6 months
[1:08:50] you know and maybe someone I'm just
[1:08:52] making this up and maybe someone in his
[1:08:53] life is ill or he's fearing a death you
[1:08:55] know in the future just something that
[1:08:57] would say that's a very legitimate fear
[1:08:59] to have like let's let's talk about that
[1:09:01] like let's look at where that comes from
[1:09:03] right what got that person into that
[1:09:05] pattern in the first place right by
[1:09:08] understanding the pattern and by working
[1:09:10] together right can we can we save that
[1:09:12] off right but it could be different the
[1:09:14] person might say well I'm really I'm
[1:09:15] having a lot of food cravings right and
[1:09:18] we like okay what does that mean where's
[1:09:20] that coming from or maybe he's depressed
[1:09:22] and when and he's getting depressed and
[1:09:23] when he's depressed he can't stop eating
[1:09:25] more right so you know you would look or
[1:09:27] it might just be plain old fear like
[1:09:29] this is so good right that that I'm
[1:09:31] worried it will go away right then we
[1:09:33] might want to reinforce like okay like
[1:09:35] you know you're a person who's able to
[1:09:37] use circumspection and perseverance and
[1:09:39] preserve goodness right so like you do
[1:09:41] that and you do that really well so
[1:09:43] let's let's make sure we're doing that
[1:09:45] here right so you know a lot of times a
[1:09:48] person is worried but that worry is
[1:09:50] coming through the lens of Health like
[1:09:51] they're healthy right so then we look at
[1:09:53] okay can we Soo that worry where where's
[1:09:55] that coming from right we can come at it
[1:09:58] and reinforce the positive but if there
[1:10:00] is something negative there's a trauma
[1:10:02] driven cycle there's depression there
[1:10:04] Cravings we we can understand that too
[1:10:07] so so I come back to this idea that
[1:10:09] there's answers to just about everything
[1:10:12] and in a very regimented scientific way
[1:10:14] it's not that hard to come to them right
[1:10:17] just like in Physical Medicine like we
[1:10:19] have the par we have the tools that we
[1:10:21] need to bring to bear but you have to
[1:10:23] understand the person again if you come
[1:10:24] in and say I'm not feeling good and
[1:10:26] someone else comes in and says I'm not
[1:10:27] feeling good the doctor better not do
[1:10:29] the same things right says how are you
[1:10:32] not feeling good okay let me understand
[1:10:34] that and then let let me map that also
[1:10:36] to you whatever underlying state of
[1:10:38] health you may have or diagnoses you may
[1:10:40] have the same is true in mental health
[1:10:42] if we just apply that then it's
[1:10:45] remarkable the good that we do which
[1:10:47] I've seen very consistently across 20
[1:10:49] years of doing this not only in my own
[1:10:51] practice but like who are the people who
[1:10:52] do really really well trying to
[1:10:55] understand and take care of people
[1:10:56] including sometimes not doing too much
[1:10:59] and realizing like hey this person is
[1:11:01] okay like there's a state of health here
[1:11:02] but this person is worried how do we
[1:11:03] reassure them right how do we help
[1:11:05] someone living a good life live a better
[1:11:07] life right if we're going to do all of
[1:11:09] this we have to approach people as
[1:11:11] individuals it's just I mean the science
[1:11:13] tells us that and Common Sense tells us
[1:11:15] that too but if we do that a person can
[1:11:18] get to the place they want to be I'd
[1:11:21] like to address a different person as an
[1:11:23] example a hypothetical person okay and
[1:11:25] I'm certain there are many many of these
[1:11:27] people out there these are the sorts of
[1:11:30] people that think okay there's a self
[1:11:32] and a mind and a unconscious mind Etc
[1:11:35] but you know at some
[1:11:37] level why not just do what needs to be
[1:11:40] done in life like the people that don't
[1:11:42] want to explore the self you know
[1:11:43] because to me it seems so absolutely
[1:11:45] clear that just as it's important to
[1:11:47] have a certain level of endurance
[1:11:48] strength flexibility so that one can
[1:11:50] extract the most joy and agency and
[1:11:54] gratitude and empowerment and hum
[1:11:55] humility from life that it makes sense
[1:11:58] to explore the self to ask you know
[1:12:01] where am I internally strong where am I
[1:12:03] internally weak you know where might I
[1:12:05] perceive myself as strong where as I'm
[1:12:07] actually weak right these seems like
[1:12:09] these seem like very important if not
[1:12:11] crucial questions to ask but I know that
[1:12:13] there are a certain number of people in
[1:12:15] the world think all of that is just kind
[1:12:17] of a waste of time right it's all about
[1:12:20] doing stuff it's it's all you know why
[1:12:22] explore the self you know and um I think
[1:12:26] the rest of us are looking at that
[1:12:27] person often and thinking well you're
[1:12:29] exactly the kind of person that needs to
[1:12:30] do this because of the ways that you
[1:12:32] grate on other people but but not always
[1:12:34] right sometimes these people just appear
[1:12:36] to be just very effective they're all
[1:12:38] about the outward expression of what
[1:12:39] they're doing and I certainly don't know
[1:12:41] how other people feel waking up in the
[1:12:43] morning and going to sleep at night and
[1:12:45] throughout the day but to the person
[1:12:48] that feels like introspection and
[1:12:51] exploring maybe even Excavating for
[1:12:53] trauma that they haven't been in touch
[1:12:55] with or haven't dealt with yet but the
[1:12:57] person that feels that all of that is is
[1:12:59] kind of not really worth the effort and
[1:13:02] it's all about action you know what can
[1:13:05] we say to that person or those
[1:13:08] people put differently does one need to
[1:13:11] change and need to believe in the power
[1:13:13] of these sorts of approaches in order
[1:13:16] for them to work uh we often hear that
[1:13:18] people don't change until they want to
[1:13:20] change and um and could we also say
[1:13:23] perhaps that even for the people that
[1:13:25] feel like they're functioning extremely
[1:13:27] well in all domains of life I know no
[1:13:30] such people and I know some very high
[1:13:31] achieving people as you do too I know no
[1:13:34] such people uh the only people who seem
[1:13:36] to exist in that sphere are the narc the
[1:13:38] clear narcissists that to them just seem
[1:13:41] like they're doing great but everyone
[1:13:42] else can't stand them by the way
[1:13:43] narcissist no one else can stand you
[1:13:46] um what do what do we say to to those
[1:13:49] individuals because I think it's a big
[1:13:51] swath of humanity and I think it um it
[1:13:54] accounts for a lot of suffering in the
[1:13:56] world including their own suffering yeah
[1:13:59] so I would make an appeal to common
[1:14:01] sense right so imagine you you take
[1:14:03] someone who doesn't know anything about
[1:14:05] health they they don't know they don't
[1:14:07] know how to exercise they don't know how
[1:14:08] to eat well they just don't know and
[1:14:10] they're very really really unhealthy
[1:14:12] right they're overweight they have low
[1:14:13] energy they have sleep apnea they no
[1:14:16] need to have you and and and you why not
[1:14:19] just say to them well like just go be
[1:14:21] different like be in fact be different
[1:14:23] now why aren't you different right now
[1:14:25] right like of course we would never do
[1:14:28] that because it's a it's absurd and by
[1:14:31] the way also would be cruel right so
[1:14:33] it's absurd and it's cruel so we would
[1:14:35] never do that right let's say now you
[1:14:38] let's say we fast forward some period of
[1:14:40] months say make it up right and we see
[1:14:42] that person and wow they are much
[1:14:45] healthier they have much more energy
[1:14:46] they've lost weight they're they're
[1:14:48] physically fit a lot will have gone on
[1:14:52] in between those two snapshots of that
[1:14:54] person that person has to learn a lot
[1:14:56] right how does one take care of oneself
[1:14:58] right then more specifically how do I
[1:15:00] take care of myself right what healthy
[1:15:02] foods you know will I like what healthy
[1:15:04] foods will I will I eat how will I put
[1:15:07] that on the table what kind of exercises
[1:15:08] can work for me how will they work for
[1:15:10] me how do I strengthen muscle how do I
[1:15:12] strengthen the heart how do I increase
[1:15:14] lung capacity right there's learning
[1:15:16] there's
[1:15:17] diligence um you know there's stick
[1:15:19] tutiven right there's resilience that's
[1:15:22] how the person gets there right it is no
[1:15:26] different in its mental health right if
[1:15:28] we say well you you feel you feel
[1:15:30] different across the board or you feel
[1:15:32] Superior across the board or whatever it
[1:15:34] is like life isn't going well and you
[1:15:35] don't have things you want and you know
[1:15:38] the selft talk is negative then we say
[1:15:39] well look but just be different right
[1:15:41] now right I mean it's remarkable that
[1:15:43] people will say that at times not just
[1:15:46] in a way that's denigrating and awful
[1:15:49] for others but to themselves too right I
[1:15:51] mean I hear people say this most often
[1:15:54] to themselves like I why am I not just
[1:15:56] different right I I want to be different
[1:15:58] or what's wrong with me that I'm not and
[1:16:01] I'm like yeah it's like everything else
[1:16:03] like you have to apply understanding and
[1:16:05] work and effort like the good news is
[1:16:07] you can get to whatever change you want
[1:16:09] I mean a person can get to whatever
[1:16:11] reasonable change that person wants like
[1:16:13] you know I'm 54 years old I'm not going
[1:16:15] to climb Mount Everest I'm not a
[1:16:16] mountain climber right but if I want to
[1:16:18] like I want to learn to climb some
[1:16:19] mountains I want to get out there and do
[1:16:21] some things I can go do that right the
[1:16:23] same thing is true with our Mental
[1:16:25] Health
[1:16:26] goals but not at the snap of a finger
[1:16:28] not by Magic right it's through applying
[1:16:32] the same science and Common Sense
[1:16:34] combination of Science and common sense
[1:16:35] that we apply to other things that's why
[1:16:38] we go through this procedure of
[1:16:40] unconscious mind conscious mind the
[1:16:41] structure and function of the self
[1:16:43] because that's how that's how it's done
[1:16:46] that's how the after snapshot looks
[1:16:48] different than the before from the
[1:16:49] mental health perspective as well that's
[1:16:52] very helpful and I think it's going to
[1:16:55] be very helpful to a lot of people in
[1:16:56] thinking about what to think about what
[1:17:00] sorts of questions to to address maybe
[1:17:02] even whether or not to get therapy and
[1:17:05] hopefully we'll remap their Notions of
[1:17:07] therapy I mean of course this critically
[1:17:09] relies on the therapist being good to
[1:17:11] excellent um and I think in the previous
[1:17:15] um sitdown we had around the uh in the
[1:17:18] episode on trauma specifically you
[1:17:20] mapped out a number of the features of
[1:17:22] quality therapy so we can refer people
[1:17:24] to that uh if they're thinking about
[1:17:26] it's timestamped in that episode as so
[1:17:28] you know what to look for in a therapist
[1:17:30] what how how to assess whether or not
[1:17:31] it's going well or not whether or not to
[1:17:33] move on or or or stay put with that
[1:17:35] therapist and so
[1:17:36] on you've been telling us a lot about
[1:17:39] the structure of our of the self
[1:17:41] unconscious mind conscious mind defense
[1:17:43] mechanisms character structure
[1:17:46] self we haven't talked so much about the
[1:17:48] function of self I realize it's been
[1:17:50] woven in here or there yes um could you
[1:17:54] tell us about the function of self self
[1:17:56] are the functions of self verb actions I
[1:17:59] mean are these things that um we are all
[1:18:01] doing right now that reflect our
[1:18:03] character structure are these things
[1:18:05] that um we can change more readily than
[1:18:09] trying to snap our fingers and say okay
[1:18:10] I'm now going to be a more altruistic
[1:18:12] person because I can decide that right
[1:18:14] now but then ultimately I have to engage
[1:18:16] in some altruistic
[1:18:18] behaviors to to um lend support to that
[1:18:22] um again same with the parallel that I
[1:18:23] can't just snap my fingers and say lower
[1:18:25] blood pressure you know I have to do
[1:18:26] some meditative practi some
[1:18:28] cardiovascular training and things of
[1:18:30] that sort uh what what is this function
[1:18:33] of self thing what goes into the
[1:18:35] functions of self okay so so just
[1:18:38] stepping back to the framing right so
[1:18:40] there're these two pillars upon which we
[1:18:44] build our lives the structure of self
[1:18:48] and the function of self and we've been
[1:18:50] talking as you said more about the
[1:18:51] structure which is more the nouns of it
[1:18:53] like there is an unconscious
[1:18:55] what is in that unconscious for example
[1:18:58] there are defense mechanisms uh uh how
[1:19:01] are we using them like it's not all
[1:19:03] nouns but it's more what are those
[1:19:04] things and then we start talking about
[1:19:07] how we put them into practice the
[1:19:08] function of self is much more the verbs
[1:19:11] right so if the structure is more nouns
[1:19:12] the function is more the verbs right the
[1:19:15] actual engagement right so so that would
[1:19:18] start with an awareness of eye so a
[1:19:20] function of self has to start with an
[1:19:22] awareness like there's a person there
[1:19:24] isn't there is a me that is separate
[1:19:27] from others right and I have
[1:19:30] responsibility for this I right like it
[1:19:32] is me no one else is guiding it like
[1:19:35] it's me I know there's a me okay then on
[1:19:38] top of that we start seeing defense
[1:19:40] mechanisms in action right because we're
[1:19:42] thinking about function right we're
[1:19:44] aware that there's an eye but the first
[1:19:46] thing that starts happening to that eye
[1:19:48] are unconscious things right so the
[1:19:50] defense mechanisms be because we're not
[1:19:53] choosing them right they start doing
[1:19:55] things automatically so if for example I
[1:19:59] have a a defense of avoidance right then
[1:20:02] I'm not thinking you know if it's I'd
[1:20:04] like to meet a new person but I
[1:20:06] automatically am shying away right then
[1:20:10] that's not it's not good it's a factor
[1:20:12] right but it's a factor I'm not aware of
[1:20:15] until I start this process of
[1:20:16] introspecting right so the defense
[1:20:18] mechanisms are then kind of determining
[1:20:21] the lay of the land right so in that
[1:20:24] example I'm sorry to interrupt but sorry
[1:20:26] to interrupt but in that example um the
[1:20:29] the Turning Away you describe as
[1:20:31] reflexive so you're you're talking about
[1:20:33] someone perhaps would like to have a
[1:20:35] romantic partner or meet somebody um
[1:20:37] have a companion and they go to the
[1:20:39] grocery store and somebody says
[1:20:41] something as they're reaching for the
[1:20:42] milk and you know there's that moment of
[1:20:44] opportunity where they could say
[1:20:45] something back but instead they just
[1:20:46] kind of go oh yeah thanks and then they
[1:20:48] they kind of move away and then they the
[1:20:50] narrative in their head might be oh gosh
[1:20:52] that that was silly or but they don't
[1:20:55] really think about the the alternate
[1:20:57] possibility or there might be no
[1:20:59] narrative they they just they head off
[1:21:01] to they head off to the produce section
[1:21:03] yeah and then they go home and and some
[1:21:04] says oh anything happened at the you
[1:21:06] mean any one at the groceries no right
[1:21:08] because it's all unconscious right okay
[1:21:11] right now again we can can we explore
[1:21:13] that and change that yes right but it's
[1:21:15] important to understand that whatever
[1:21:17] that nest of defense mechanisms is like
[1:21:20] that's what I've got right now right and
[1:21:22] I'm living through that right now right
[1:21:24] that that's is performing a function
[1:21:26] right just because it's an unconscious
[1:21:28] function does it mean it's it's not a
[1:21:30] very very important function I can see
[1:21:33] in that example how it protects the
[1:21:35] conscious mind from risk because there's
[1:21:36] always a possibility of rejection
[1:21:38] there's a possibility of over
[1:21:39] interpretation of what the other person
[1:21:41] is talking to them for right like is the
[1:21:43] person interested in them or whether or
[1:21:45] not this is just you know F friendly
[1:21:47] banter um the sort that anyone would
[1:21:50] have next to anybody that it's not
[1:21:51] special to them so I can see how the the
[1:21:54] uh the unconscious
[1:21:55] turning away is protective against all
[1:21:58] the negative possibilities and in some
[1:22:00] sense is pretty rational because the the
[1:22:03] probability that that one interaction
[1:22:05] could ratchet up to a a life of
[1:22:07] companionship and and romance with
[1:22:09] somebody is is in uh exceedingly small
[1:22:12] really although you could imagine a set
[1:22:14] of data points where you string together
[1:22:17] you know like 5-second Clips you know
[1:22:19] all like the time something like that
[1:22:21] has happened right so maybe this is a
[1:22:23] person that you know intermittently like
[1:22:26] people are interested in them or saying
[1:22:28] Hey or saying hello or showing interest
[1:22:30] you could string all those together and
[1:22:31] the person hasn't noticed one of them
[1:22:33] right and then could have a very
[1:22:34] negative see nobody no one wants me no
[1:22:37] one's interested in me or whatever the
[1:22:39] person is saying but but like it's
[1:22:42] different if you see from the outside
[1:22:43] like it's objectively different but that
[1:22:46] person doesn't know and that's why after
[1:22:49] being an awareness there is an i the
[1:22:52] next thing that I think of in the in the
[1:22:54] function of self is is the defense
[1:22:57] mechanisms in action what are some other
[1:23:00] examples of defense mechanisms in action
[1:23:02] because I think there's immense interest
[1:23:05] in this you know the idea that we have
[1:23:08] unconscious processes in us that are
[1:23:11] reaching up out of the iceberg and
[1:23:13] preventing us from seeing our life and
[1:23:16] ourselves the way that it actually is
[1:23:18] occurring and perhaps preventing us from
[1:23:21] achieving these uh ideals of agency and
[1:23:23] gratitude empowerment and humility you
[1:23:26] know I mean these seem like very
[1:23:28] powerful and important forces and and I
[1:23:31] and I know many other people out there
[1:23:33] want to understand whether or not what
[1:23:35] we're doing and what we're feeling and
[1:23:37] experiencing whether or not that that is
[1:23:39] serving us well or not so I think the
[1:23:41] the the place to start is to say that
[1:23:43] there's something very very complicated
[1:23:46] going on right the the part of the
[1:23:48] iceberg underneath the surface right
[1:23:49] that biological supercomputer that's
[1:23:52] running at a million thoughts and a
[1:23:54] million actions and million internal
[1:23:56] processes a second right is constantly
[1:23:59] shifting our defensive structure so so
[1:24:02] it's complicated and you can almost
[1:24:04] imagine that like one leaves and another
[1:24:05] comes in and they're shifting and
[1:24:07] there's a little bit of one and some of
[1:24:08] another like so it's a very complicated
[1:24:10] process but we can look at it and un
[1:24:13] understand so so an example of a defense
[1:24:16] mechanism that's very common and can
[1:24:18] cause us a lot of problems is projection
[1:24:21] right so I'll give two examples of of
[1:24:23] projection so so one is the experience
[1:24:26] of sitting in a car right and being
[1:24:29] stuck in traffic being a little bit late
[1:24:32] right and feeling Bel leaguered right I
[1:24:34] mean this has happened to me more times
[1:24:36] than I can count but at some point I
[1:24:38] started through my own therapy looking
[1:24:40] at like what what's going on in me right
[1:24:42] when when I'm doing this right so think
[1:24:44] about the be feeling be leaguered right
[1:24:46] as if what does that mean like there's
[1:24:49] something called traffic that exists and
[1:24:51] has a mind and wants to thwart me right
[1:24:54] is it individual cars is it the people
[1:24:57] in the cars right what's going on is I'm
[1:25:00] having a perception of hostility I feel
[1:25:02] Bel leaguered right but it's it's anger
[1:25:04] and frustration inside of me right I'm
[1:25:07] I'm the one feeling angry and frustrated
[1:25:08] there's there's there's no one and
[1:25:10] nothing but me that's feeling anything
[1:25:13] about this right but I have this sense
[1:25:15] of the world around me being hostile
[1:25:18] because I'm projecting my anger outward
[1:25:22] right now think this isn't good because
[1:25:24] instead of sitting in traffic and saying
[1:25:27] look maybe it totally makes sense that
[1:25:29] I'm stuck in traffic and that that I'm
[1:25:32] not happy like maybe I I should leave a
[1:25:33] little bit earlier and I wouldn't be
[1:25:35] late or if it's I'm going to work should
[1:25:37] I live closer to work I could make a
[1:25:39] whole set of decisions that I'm not
[1:25:41] making right or maybe I I know I thought
[1:25:44] it was going to be a 15-minute drive and
[1:25:46] like there was an accident right and
[1:25:47] okay there are things that I can't
[1:25:48] control am I supposed to control
[1:25:50] everything right if if you think about
[1:25:52] what can I control being aware of that
[1:25:54] and what can I not control right then it
[1:25:56] can make the situation much better so
[1:25:58] this doesn't happen with this frequency
[1:26:00] and it also takes away the anger and the
[1:26:03] frustration right so I think that's a
[1:26:05] good example because it it happens a lot
[1:26:08] it's very very common but projection
[1:26:10] then also happens with people right so
[1:26:13] let's say you and I work together and
[1:26:14] we're we we're going to do something
[1:26:16] collaborative together and I'm just not
[1:26:19] having a good day and something negative
[1:26:21] happened before I came to work and you
[1:26:23] know I'm not at my best and I'm a little
[1:26:25] bit I'm a little bit irritable and
[1:26:26] frustrated right this happens all the
[1:26:28] time where then the person sits down
[1:26:30] with someone and then I'm being
[1:26:32] irritable and frustrated which doesn't
[1:26:34] feel good to you right and and you may
[1:26:36] become irritable and frustrated right
[1:26:38] and then I say oh look he's irritable
[1:26:39] and frustrated right but even if you
[1:26:41] don't the fact that I feel that way
[1:26:45] right that projection often would lead
[1:26:47] me to to think that it's you who's that
[1:26:49] way here I come wanting to do this job
[1:26:51] and you're not at your best it's me
[1:26:53] who's not at my best right but we do
[1:26:56] this all the time and then we make
[1:26:58] incorrect or inaccurate attributions
[1:27:01] right so so projection it's it's an
[1:27:03] example of a defense mechanism that can
[1:27:06] cause us a lot of trouble right a lot of
[1:27:11] trouble uh another can be displacement
[1:27:13] where uh if I'm feeling anger or
[1:27:16] frustration say in a certain realm than
[1:27:20] I the idea of feeling it at work and
[1:27:22] then kicking the dog right like it it's
[1:27:24] not good that we do that we're not
[1:27:25] acknowledging what's going on inside of
[1:27:27] us at work what we could change what we
[1:27:28] could make better and the dog doesn't
[1:27:30] want to be kicked right and the dog is
[1:27:32] often you know also the family right and
[1:27:35] and it could be physical or could be
[1:27:36] through words right but the idea that
[1:27:39] that there's something negative being
[1:27:40] generated in us but but inside we're
[1:27:44] we're perceiving that it's coming from
[1:27:46] somewhere else right I mean the thought
[1:27:49] is all things to lead us astray right
[1:27:51] when when there are negative defenses
[1:27:52] right there going to be positive
[1:27:54] defenses too such as altruism right that
[1:27:57] that someone could do something negative
[1:27:59] to me right and instead of me passing
[1:28:02] that along I could decide no I'm going
[1:28:04] to do something I'm going to do
[1:28:05] something nice for the next person I
[1:28:07] have an opportunity to do something nice
[1:28:08] for right like that's a defense and
[1:28:11] sometimes we could think of it and
[1:28:12] decide that way but there are people who
[1:28:14] react that way like there's something
[1:28:15] negative that happens and they respond
[1:28:18] with something that's that's different
[1:28:19] from that so defense mechanisms can work
[1:28:21] against us they can work for us they're
[1:28:23] complicated they're combinations of them
[1:28:25] but we can look inside and say for
[1:28:27] example if I'm using projection all the
[1:28:30] time right and I think everyone around
[1:28:32] me is kind of always angry and
[1:28:33] frustrated right and there's always bad
[1:28:35] traffic right but then as we start to
[1:28:37] talk about it more it becomes apparent
[1:28:40] that there's a lot I'm angry about right
[1:28:42] but I'm not aware of it then then
[1:28:45] reflection or therapy right or a good
[1:28:48] friend we're talking to can help us see
[1:28:50] right that hey this is going on inside
[1:28:52] of me right and that can really help us
[1:28:56] same with use of humor like if I'm using
[1:28:58] humor and I'm I'm kind of decompressing
[1:29:01] uncomfortable situations or things that
[1:29:02] make me feel uncomfortable maybe that
[1:29:04] greases the wheels of social progress
[1:29:06] but maybe over time I come to use humor
[1:29:10] in a way that's self-denigrating right
[1:29:12] well that's not so good anymore but I
[1:29:15] may not be aware of the shift just
[1:29:17] because I can maybe be funny in certain
[1:29:19] situations that I'm now not using that
[1:29:21] for myself anymore I'm using it against
[1:29:23] myself and by talking to people by
[1:29:26] reflection like we can be aware of the
[1:29:28] defensive structure that's going on
[1:29:30] inside of us and then there's not an
[1:29:32] automaticity to it if you point out that
[1:29:35] I'm using projection a lot I can start
[1:29:37] to be aware of that just like if someone
[1:29:41] let's say you were with me at the
[1:29:43] grocery store right and someone says
[1:29:44] something nice and I shy away and you
[1:29:46] say Hey you know you didn't weren't even
[1:29:48] aware someone said hello to you and then
[1:29:50] I said say I want to be more aware of
[1:29:52] that like I want I don't want that thing
[1:29:54] to happen unconsciously so maybe now I
[1:29:56] think okay anytime someone I don't know
[1:29:58] says something to me I'm going to just
[1:29:59] stop and think like what's going on here
[1:30:01] right is that person being friendly to
[1:30:03] me is it is are they just you know it's
[1:30:05] just person exchanging money at the cash
[1:30:06] register like what's going on so we take
[1:30:08] what's unconscious and we make it
[1:30:11] conscious so that we can change it
[1:30:14] sounds to me like exploring and thinking
[1:30:16] about our reflexes is what's really key
[1:30:19] here um the example of displacement that
[1:30:22] you gave you know kicking the dog I
[1:30:24] couldn't help but um smile not because I
[1:30:27] think it's a good thing to do I never
[1:30:29] once kicked my dog by the way folks
[1:30:30] terrible thing to do also he was the
[1:30:32] size of a boulder it would have injured
[1:30:34] me more than it would have injured him
[1:30:35] but I never would do such a thing
[1:30:37] however in Academia there's this um
[1:30:40] phenomenon that's very common that that
[1:30:43] I refer to as trickle down anxiety where
[1:30:45] the person running the laboratory is
[1:30:47] inevitably under a tremendous amount of
[1:30:49] stress grants and papers Etc and
[1:30:52] graduate students in postdocs will
[1:30:53] immediately be familar with what I'm
[1:30:55] describing but um for those of you that
[1:30:57] haven't gone to graduate school um this
[1:31:00] will be a little bit foreign but you'll
[1:31:01] think of other examples where when the
[1:31:03] lab head is under
[1:31:05] stress it's incredibly common for labhe
[1:31:08] heads to walk through the laboratory and
[1:31:10] start asking about experiments and
[1:31:12] telling people to do additional
[1:31:13] experiments and basically just assigning
[1:31:14] busy work to people or pressuring what
[1:31:17] simply cannot be moved along any faster
[1:31:20] and when I was a graduate student I
[1:31:22] worked for somebody who was the exact
[1:31:24] opposite of this phenotype when I was a
[1:31:26] postdoc frankly I worked with someone
[1:31:27] who was a little bit of that phenotype
[1:31:29] although I still liked working for him
[1:31:30] very much but I used to have a response
[1:31:33] that at least for me was adaptive which
[1:31:34] was I would always say I'm working as
[1:31:36] fast as I carefully can because no
[1:31:39] scientist ever wants to uh somebody to
[1:31:40] cut Corners no good scientist anyway um
[1:31:43] but trickle down anxiety is common in
[1:31:45] every occupation I think we see this
[1:31:47] sort of displacement all the time where
[1:31:49] someone's anxious and so they go start
[1:31:51] creating anxiety for other people I mean
[1:31:53] you can just
[1:31:54] as you're describing I was just seeing
[1:31:56] how pathologic that is for everybody
[1:31:57] involved so the the academic the trickle
[1:32:00] down anxiety that you were just talking
[1:32:02] about is it's a related but but it's a
[1:32:05] different defense mechanism and it's
[1:32:07] projective identification right which is
[1:32:10] which is causing others to feel the way
[1:32:12] that you feel in order to get your needs
[1:32:15] met right is this a form of projection
[1:32:17] and actually perhaps you could um
[1:32:19] clarify the definition of projection
[1:32:22] versus displacement versus projective
[1:32:24] identification yeah so projection is
[1:32:26] when you don't own it so so it's not me
[1:32:28] who's mad it's you right so I don't own
[1:32:31] that I'm mad at all right I just think
[1:32:33] that it's you even though I'm the one
[1:32:34] who's mad right displacement is what
[1:32:38] comes out of us or what what we're our
[1:32:40] attribution can shift right it's it's
[1:32:42] not this person who's making me angry
[1:32:45] it's that person because that's a safer
[1:32:46] person right to to to be angry at right
[1:32:50] or if I'm then going to take out my
[1:32:52] anger right instead of metaphorically
[1:32:54] kicking the person who might who might
[1:32:56] respond to me in a way I don't want
[1:32:58] maybe I kick the dog that's helpless to
[1:33:00] respond back right so that's
[1:33:02] displacement projective identification
[1:33:04] is there's there's an expression of an
[1:33:07] emotional state inside of a person that
[1:33:09] then becomes contagious to other people
[1:33:11] even though the person isn't trying to
[1:33:13] do that if the person says I'm going to
[1:33:14] make you anxious that's not a defense
[1:33:16] mechanism anymore right so here's an
[1:33:18] example I think I think this is the best
[1:33:19] example of projective identification so
[1:33:21] for a little bit of time at work I would
[1:33:24] occasionally lose my keys right so now
[1:33:26] I'm trying to go and I I can't find my
[1:33:29] keys right so they say oh I don't know
[1:33:30] where my keys are right so I start
[1:33:31] expressing something right and I'm
[1:33:33] anxious and I'm tense right now people
[1:33:35] around me hear that right and what do
[1:33:37] they start feeling they start feeling
[1:33:39] anxious and tense the way that I do
[1:33:41] right and now they're like well now they
[1:33:43] want to now they want to find my keys
[1:33:44] right they want to help me so that I
[1:33:46] stop spreading anxiety and tension into
[1:33:49] the whole environment around me right so
[1:33:52] then they help me find my keys I say
[1:33:53] thank you my own emotional state comes
[1:33:55] down and upon reflection I think look I
[1:33:59] don't want to do that right I got my I'm
[1:34:01] getting my needs met by making other
[1:34:04] people feel in a way that's like not a
[1:34:06] good or comfortable way to feel so
[1:34:08] here's a way around that like put my
[1:34:10] keys in the same place every day right
[1:34:12] so then I can avoid that because it
[1:34:14] doesn't feel good to me like then if I
[1:34:16] get out to my car like I find you know
[1:34:17] I'm a little bit I'm breathing a little
[1:34:18] heavy like I don't doesn't feel good cuz
[1:34:20] I was just agitated right and I did that
[1:34:22] to other people too right so so it's an
[1:34:24] example of how projective identification
[1:34:27] works and it's kind of a simple example
[1:34:29] but it shows it's happening all the time
[1:34:31] you know all these things are happening
[1:34:32] all the time but we can become aware of
[1:34:35] it then I don't lose my keys I don't
[1:34:36] have to feel bad about I don't have to
[1:34:37] activate myself for no reason and I
[1:34:39] don't have to activate other people for
[1:34:41] no reason so so thinking and reflecting
[1:34:43] like change that thing for the better
[1:34:45] and it can do it with much bigger things
[1:34:47] too thank you for those
[1:34:49] clarifications I'd like to touch on
[1:34:51] humor for a moment obviously humor is a
[1:34:53] wonderful thing or can be a wonderful
[1:34:56] thing I've also seen a lot of examples
[1:34:59] of where very smart and or accomplished
[1:35:02] people because those are not always um
[1:35:05] uh the same thing use
[1:35:09] sarcasm as a form of humor and it can be
[1:35:12] very funny but I have to imagine based
[1:35:15] on everything I'm hearing from you today
[1:35:17] that um there's a form of sarcasm which
[1:35:19] is an unhealthy defense I'm thinking of
[1:35:21] the person that um no matter what
[1:35:24] someone else says that's positive or or
[1:35:27] no matter what someone does that could
[1:35:29] be viewed as positive they find some way
[1:35:32] to diminish it by like through sarcastic
[1:35:35] humor right I I I see this a lot and I
[1:35:38] think closely nested with sarcasm is um
[1:35:43] cynicism um in fact uh I have a family
[1:35:45] member I won't name who they are to
[1:35:47] protect the not so innocent who used to
[1:35:50] be very cynical um and I want to ask you
[1:35:53] know what is the the about cynicism and
[1:35:55] and they said well I have had a
[1:35:57] particular uh genre of of schooling
[1:36:00] growing up a formal schooling where if
[1:36:03] anyone behaved um too happy expressed
[1:36:06] too much happiness rather too much
[1:36:08] delight they were viewed as stupid like
[1:36:11] like as if to be happy is to um to be
[1:36:14] unaware of of of the sophistication and
[1:36:17] the importance of things in life right
[1:36:20] um and I hope that this is unrelatable
[1:36:22] to most people listening but um I do
[1:36:25] think that sarcasm is is a double-edged
[1:36:27] blade um in this sense and that cynicism
[1:36:30] is is perhaps um uh double-edged blade
[1:36:34] as well but that it might even be worse
[1:36:35] than sarcasm because it's a way of
[1:36:38] really reflecting back what's by
[1:36:41] definition what's not good about life
[1:36:43] what's not good about what's happening
[1:36:46] and and it does seem protective right it
[1:36:48] protects one from disappointment if
[1:36:50] you're already disappointed how could
[1:36:51] you be further disappointed it's also
[1:36:53] seems to me like a bit of a power move
[1:36:55] it's like you're going to be happy well
[1:36:57] I'm going to take that away for from
[1:36:58] everybody like as something that's like
[1:37:00] for myself and um does any of this
[1:37:04] actually hold in the inside of the CL
[1:37:06] clinical literature um because again I
[1:37:08] enjoy a good sarcastic joke in fact
[1:37:11] there's a collaboration around a
[1:37:12] sarcastic joke it can be truly funny to
[1:37:15] everybody but um sarcasm and cynicism um
[1:37:18] I feel like are often used to cut down
[1:37:21] what would otherwise be um benevolence
[1:37:24] or or or bonding experiences yeah
[1:37:27] absolutely look I grew up in central New
[1:37:29] Jersey humor is a weapon right or it
[1:37:32] certainly can be right and people can be
[1:37:34] very aggressive through humor so so
[1:37:37] acting out which is is letting our
[1:37:39] aggression flow right that's a defense
[1:37:42] right so just being aggressive and
[1:37:44] pushing someone back right however that
[1:37:46] means like I if I don't feel good about
[1:37:48] myself I want you to feel not so good
[1:37:50] about yourself right is where we start
[1:37:52] getting into into Envy right and humor
[1:37:54] can be used that way so so that that
[1:37:56] sort of biting sarcastic humor is a form
[1:38:00] of acting out it's a form of aggression
[1:38:03] right it's not humor as a healthy
[1:38:05] defense right we can call it the same
[1:38:06] thing but we could also call it
[1:38:08] different things it's just a Nuance of
[1:38:09] our language right if if if humor can be
[1:38:11] a defense like I I trip and fall I make
[1:38:13] a little joke people are laughing at
[1:38:16] with me instead of at me right hey humor
[1:38:18] is a good defense I made myself feel
[1:38:19] better made things flow flow more easily
[1:38:22] but if I'm using sarcastic humor to
[1:38:25] assail someone right then that's not
[1:38:28] it's not that thing anymore right you
[1:38:30] know now it's a manifestation of
[1:38:31] aggression right and the idea that
[1:38:34] cynicism you know is is more then we're
[1:38:37] talking about a worldview right like
[1:38:38] sarcasm is something that can be done
[1:38:40] now like we can make a sarcastic joke
[1:38:42] funny or not then it's over right um but
[1:38:45] cynicism is is a way of coming at the
[1:38:47] world is a different kind of Defense
[1:38:49] right the idea that hey it's like the
[1:38:51] fox and the sour grapes like I don't I I
[1:38:53] don't think think there's anything good
[1:38:54] to be had anyway right so you can't take
[1:38:57] anything away from me it can't make me
[1:38:58] feel worse right I I already feel uh
[1:39:01] very very bad about the world and about
[1:39:03] everybody in it and I'm protecting
[1:39:05] myself that way like that's then an
[1:39:07] unhealthy defense because what does that
[1:39:09] lead to it leads to isolation at least
[1:39:10] to mistrust you know we we know that
[1:39:13] people are happy if they live through
[1:39:15] altruism and gratitude and they're well
[1:39:16] connected with others so so the cynical
[1:39:20] point of view which again to some degree
[1:39:22] being in the world builds some cynic ISM
[1:39:24] in us right like that that's okay that's
[1:39:26] part of that's a part of awareness in
[1:39:28] some sense but I think what you're
[1:39:29] talking about is a very pervasive
[1:39:31] sinicism that then is an unhealthy
[1:39:34] defense that is very harmful to others
[1:39:36] like the idea that I I feel lousy about
[1:39:39] everything and if you don't I'm going to
[1:39:41] try and bring you down right like too
[1:39:42] much happiness we'll label that as
[1:39:44] something right we label it as stupid
[1:39:46] right so now it's like it's not okay to
[1:39:48] be happier than some sort of cynical
[1:39:50] Baseline right and again there's nothing
[1:39:52] about altruism and gratitude like that's
[1:39:54] not happy right I mean who who's happy
[1:39:56] in that situation Cy the people who are
[1:39:58] overly cynical are not happy and the
[1:40:00] people around them are not happy
[1:40:02] nobody's
[1:40:03] happy thanks for the clarification on
[1:40:05] New Jersey a good portion of my
[1:40:08] biological family is from New Jersey
[1:40:10] come out well armed I I I adore them but
[1:40:12] it's true there was once a moment at a
[1:40:14] family gathering where somebody said oh
[1:40:17] let's um let's hug or something and the
[1:40:20] reaction was like oh we're going to hug
[1:40:22] now you know it was like it was it was
[1:40:25] it was it was entirely sarcastic and
[1:40:27] cynical and like and the the hug that
[1:40:29] resulted from that was this like little
[1:40:31] like like distant Pats kind of thing it
[1:40:33] was and now I'm laughing about it and
[1:40:34] it's funny and and they're very loving
[1:40:36] people but you're right it's a it's a a
[1:40:38] different style of of humor and
[1:40:40] discourse yeah so you've been talking
[1:40:42] about these two pillars of the self and
[1:40:44] who we are and how things play out in
[1:40:46] the world for us as the structure of
[1:40:49] self and the function of self and in
[1:40:51] terms of the function of self you
[1:40:53] describe self-awareness this notion or
[1:40:56] this realization that there is an i
[1:40:58] there's a me and then we've been talking
[1:41:00] about defense mechanisms in action how
[1:41:03] these play out in in the real world both
[1:41:04] positive and
[1:41:06] negative it seems to me that a lot of
[1:41:08] what is happening here in terms of
[1:41:10] understanding the function of self has
[1:41:12] to do with like what we pay attention to
[1:41:16] and like where we place our our efforts
[1:41:19] or choose to not place our attention and
[1:41:22] not place our efforts do I have that
[1:41:23] right right yeah salience is a is a huge
[1:41:27] Concept in I think in in human existence
[1:41:30] right I mean there are thousands upon
[1:41:31] thousands of things that that you or I
[1:41:34] could be paying attention to right now
[1:41:36] right but but we're we're not paying
[1:41:37] attention to anything except what we're
[1:41:39] doing right here so we are gating out so
[1:41:42] many other thoughts ideas narratives
[1:41:45] inside now if something were to shift
[1:41:47] very quickly if we heard a loud noise
[1:41:49] right our attention would shift right so
[1:41:51] so our attention is it's Focus we're
[1:41:54] Salient to one another because this is
[1:41:56] what we've Chosen and we're focusing our
[1:41:58] minds and we are also somewhere inside
[1:42:01] of us aware that we could shift away
[1:42:03] from it if something more important like
[1:42:05] something dangerous like were to happen
[1:42:06] right so it lets us be here and be
[1:42:08] Salient to one another and have this
[1:42:10] conversation right but in the course of
[1:42:13] Life what's Salient to us is so
[1:42:16] complicated and determined by so many
[1:42:18] factors that is absolutely worth a lot
[1:42:21] of attention to so so one example is so
[1:42:24] many people have a negative internal
[1:42:26] dialogue that's running in them over and
[1:42:28] over again or they're running through
[1:42:30] images events you know they may be
[1:42:33] traumatic events or things that they're
[1:42:34] not happy with images of themselves in
[1:42:37] negative ways um that that these
[1:42:40] internal narratives or internal images
[1:42:43] can become so strong that there's no
[1:42:45] room for anything else so you know an
[1:42:47] example would be a a person who uh who
[1:42:51] really really loved music right and
[1:42:53] could have you know just in addition to
[1:42:56] enjoying music like had like good
[1:42:58] thoughts while listening to music like
[1:43:00] you know what I could go do this right
[1:43:02] and and and had a history of of like
[1:43:05] that really working out well like
[1:43:06] following his interests and and like
[1:43:08] really creating sort of goodness in his
[1:43:10] life right who now was going for long
[1:43:12] drives like longer than would be needed
[1:43:15] to go somewhere get something like why
[1:43:17] the extra time in the car and I had had
[1:43:20] a presumption okay the person's
[1:43:21] listening to music and thinking but but
[1:43:24] it didn't quite add up and then I
[1:43:25] learned that the person is not listening
[1:43:28] to music right that they're using that
[1:43:30] time so that the internal narrative
[1:43:33] right which was a very very negative
[1:43:35] repeated internal negative you're not
[1:43:37] going to get anywhere you're not going
[1:43:38] to make anything of of yourself right it
[1:43:40] could be there in his mind right so it
[1:43:43] was a form of self-punishment right it
[1:43:45] was a form of of taking the anger and
[1:43:47] frustration inside and enacting it
[1:43:49] towards himself and that was so salient
[1:43:53] that this person could not see his way
[1:43:56] to any goodness like nothing could
[1:43:58] change nothing could get any better like
[1:44:01] felt very sure and very resolved about
[1:44:04] that and the answer was yeah that's
[1:44:06] right right nothing can get any better
[1:44:09] with this constant Mantra running over
[1:44:12] and over again but things can get better
[1:44:15] right if that becomes less Salient over
[1:44:18] time and your own thoughts and
[1:44:20] Reflections become more Salient so at
[1:44:23] the end of that shift you know that
[1:44:25] narrative that was still there but it
[1:44:28] was weakened right because it takes time
[1:44:29] to really change things so it was very
[1:44:31] much weakened the person was listening
[1:44:33] to music again those thoughts had kind
[1:44:35] of come back to the surface and they
[1:44:37] were being sort of jumbled you know in
[1:44:39] ways that that brought new and
[1:44:40] interesting thoughts coming from them
[1:44:42] and the person was in an entirely
[1:44:44] different place and like completely
[1:44:46] changed their life right I mean this is
[1:44:48] it's this is true right it's a dramatic
[1:44:51] example but dramatic examples inform us
[1:44:53] right where the salience shifted and
[1:44:55] then the life shifted after that what
[1:44:58] you're describing in terms of this
[1:45:00] specific example um doesn't resonate
[1:45:02] with me in terms of my own experience
[1:45:04] although as you point out it's very
[1:45:06] striking it's very dramatic um but it
[1:45:09] resonates with me from a different
[1:45:11] perspective um I'm not seeking a free
[1:45:13] clinical session here but uh but to give
[1:45:17] meet to the example I'm about to ask you
[1:45:20] for insight on you know I've never
[1:45:22] allowed myself to stay in a bad
[1:45:25] professional situation for very long you
[1:45:27] know when things didn't feel right or
[1:45:29] when I sense someone I was working with
[1:45:31] or four wasn't the right situation I got
[1:45:33] out despite if I were to really think
[1:45:36] about it there could have been pretty
[1:45:37] severe long-term
[1:45:39] consequences fortunately it all worked
[1:45:41] out in fact so much so that I would say
[1:45:44] um you know I pay attention to whether
[1:45:46] or not people I work with and four are
[1:45:48] of the sort that I want to be working
[1:45:50] with and if I sense a particular type of
[1:45:52] danger I'll look at that and I'm I'm
[1:45:56] 100% so far knock on wood but 100% so
[1:45:59] far on recognizing later that it was a
[1:46:02] great decision to move on and on the
[1:46:05] flip side of it I've made I believe
[1:46:07] excellent decisions in terms of who to
[1:46:08] work with in terms of my podcasting in
[1:46:11] terms of my academic career Etc but I've
[1:46:13] had to move aways from people that just
[1:46:16] weren't right for me I don't think they
[1:46:18] were truly Bad actors but thank goodness
[1:46:20] I moved
[1:46:21] away and thank goodness I found the
[1:46:23] these other wonderful people to work
[1:46:25] with however there are circumstances
[1:46:29] that have been repetitive in my life
[1:46:31] where I've just be honest repeatedly
[1:46:35] made not good decisions about who to be
[1:46:39] involved with over fairly long periods
[1:46:42] of time and there can even be an
[1:46:44] awareness or I should say there has been
[1:46:45] an awareness like this isn't a good
[1:46:47] situation and yet I'm persisting in in
[1:46:49] seeking out this and similar types of
[1:46:51] situations so I consider myself a at
[1:46:54] least partially rational human being
[1:46:56] with some degree of
[1:46:58] introspection you know when I look at
[1:47:01] this and I think okay this is a a choice
[1:47:04] to focus on placing myself in I have to
[1:47:07] assume it placing myself into situations
[1:47:09] that are challenging for me in a way
[1:47:12] that I know is preventing me from living
[1:47:14] in certain ways that I want and from
[1:47:16] being quote unquote happy in certain
[1:47:17] ways that I want when you hear a
[1:47:19] scenario like that like I can do it over
[1:47:22] here but I
[1:47:23] can't seem to do it over here in fact I
[1:47:26] see myself doing it the wrong way here
[1:47:28] right a little bit different than the
[1:47:29] example you gave a moment ago because
[1:47:31] the guy was driving to work not
[1:47:32] listening to music but wasn't putting
[1:47:34] two and two together about what was
[1:47:35] going on but when somebody can see
[1:47:37] what's going on I think this might even
[1:47:40] be called the repetition compulsion or
[1:47:42] yeah sometimes you know what is that
[1:47:45] about are are people trying to work out
[1:47:47] something specific or are they
[1:47:49] deliberately creating some friction to
[1:47:51] accomplish something else right I mean I
[1:47:54] realize this could be infinitely complex
[1:47:55] and again I'm not trying to extract um
[1:47:58] uh a clinical insight for for my own
[1:48:01] sake I started the clock on that thank
[1:48:04] you um but I think a lot of people do
[1:48:08] this oh yes they they do what they know
[1:48:10] they shouldn't be
[1:48:12] doing they know they shouldn't be doing
[1:48:15] it duh I just said that two ways and but
[1:48:19] they do it like it must serve them in
[1:48:21] some way you know think about um when
[1:48:25] you get a dog and you talk to a dog
[1:48:26] trainer they say you know dogs do what
[1:48:29] works right they get a reward for doing
[1:48:31] something they're going continue doing
[1:48:33] it uh you apply that to the same sort of
[1:48:35] thing I'm describing for myself and that
[1:48:37] I've observed in other people and you
[1:48:38] must say it must work for them you hear
[1:48:41] this in kind of pop psychology like it
[1:48:43] must work for them like it must be
[1:48:44] solving
[1:48:46] something why the hell do I do this why
[1:48:49] do people do this is it real pathology
[1:48:52] or is it around about about way to get
[1:48:54] to something else that's actually pretty
[1:48:56] adaptive yeah I mean instead of defining
[1:48:58] it as pathology I would not Define it as
[1:49:00] pathology I would Define it as humanness
[1:49:03] if humanness is not in and of itself
[1:49:05] pathological then all you're doing there
[1:49:07] is is describing something that is
[1:49:10] common widespread across human beings
[1:49:12] now it doesn't mean we can't understand
[1:49:14] it and make it healthier right I work in
[1:49:16] a discipline that wants to put a number
[1:49:18] on everything right label it as
[1:49:20] something and then do something about it
[1:49:21] that's more often than not ineffective
[1:49:24] right because we're not looking at
[1:49:26] things in a top- down way of what is
[1:49:28] Human Experience what are the natural
[1:49:31] aspects of human experience that are
[1:49:33] less than ideal right that we can then
[1:49:36] understand and make better if we come at
[1:49:38] it that way then we see ah this is a
[1:49:40] great example because here's where
[1:49:42] structure meets function right so on the
[1:49:44] structure side we said okay there's
[1:49:46] defense mechanisms and we imagine the
[1:49:47] branches right that are that are coming
[1:49:49] up from the unconscious mind right and
[1:49:52] here it meets function right defense
[1:49:53] mechanisms in action on the function
[1:49:56] side then determining salience so what I
[1:49:59] would imagine in your example my image
[1:50:02] is that your defensive structure when
[1:50:04] you're doing the thing that's effective
[1:50:06] right the professional decisions right
[1:50:08] looks elegant right like there's Harmony
[1:50:11] to where those branches are the
[1:50:12] Consciousness is sitting in between it
[1:50:14] you can see you can see the Elegance to
[1:50:16] it right that I can just imagine
[1:50:20] shifting right when to when you're not
[1:50:22] doing
[1:50:23] the thing effectively right because now
[1:50:26] you're using an entirely different
[1:50:29] defensive structure which is going to
[1:50:30] function differently and create
[1:50:32] different salients and I imagine that
[1:50:33] it's convoluted and you know that it's
[1:50:36] sort of Peace meal that it's not
[1:50:38] something elegant right so you say okay
[1:50:40] what does that actually mean let's
[1:50:41] translate it into what are the actual
[1:50:43] defenses so let's think about what
[1:50:45] you're not doing when you're making good
[1:50:48] decisions in the professional realm
[1:50:49] right you are not using denial or
[1:50:52] avoidance or rationalization or
[1:50:55] projection or projective identification
[1:50:57] or acting out right there are all these
[1:51:00] things that you are not doing that are
[1:51:02] the sort of unhealthy defenses beckoning
[1:51:05] to us like oh wouldn't it be easier to
[1:51:07] Kick the Can down the road right you
[1:51:08] know wouldn't it be easier to just no no
[1:51:11] everything's okay everything's going to
[1:51:12] work out okay wouldn't it be easier
[1:51:14] instead of being angry at one person who
[1:51:17] is really intrinsic to the environment
[1:51:19] if you you know it's actually somebody
[1:51:20] else you know are you displacing it
[1:51:22] projecting that's how people that's how
[1:51:24] we get ourselves into trouble right and
[1:51:26] and if that's going on then that set of
[1:51:30] defense mechanisms in action right
[1:51:34] creates something that obscures the
[1:51:36] ability to make good judgment right but
[1:51:38] with none of those things going on then
[1:51:41] what are you doing what you're applying
[1:51:42] your intelligence you're applying your
[1:51:44] discernment right you're applying your
[1:51:46] desire to make things better you're able
[1:51:48] to look at it you're able to bring
[1:51:51] diligence perseverance right you're able
[1:51:53] to bring healthy aspects of self to the
[1:51:56] question and decide like oh I don't want
[1:51:58] this and it should be different right
[1:52:00] and there again what's going on there's
[1:52:02] a complexity under the surface but now
[1:52:04] we're coming up towards Simplicity right
[1:52:07] we're coming up towards the things that
[1:52:08] are healthier that are simplistic if we
[1:52:10] look then okay what's going on if you're
[1:52:12] making the same mistakes over and over
[1:52:15] again well we could you know we would
[1:52:17] dive under the hood and really look and
[1:52:18] say okay what are you doing there but it
[1:52:21] has to be an array of unhealthy defenses
[1:52:23] there's no other thing it could be so we
[1:52:25] would say okay are you using a are you
[1:52:27] using avoidance maybe a little maybe a
[1:52:29] lot what about denial what about
[1:52:32] rationalization what about projection
[1:52:34] like you know you go through the
[1:52:35] unhealthy defenses and and you see what
[1:52:38] is it that you're bringing to bear that
[1:52:41] is leading you astray and then and then
[1:52:43] of course the goal is to use the the
[1:52:46] role modeling and you role model for
[1:52:48] yourself how to be healthy right so
[1:52:50] let's take that role modeling and apply
[1:52:52] it to the thing you're of carving out
[1:52:54] and and treating differently and and
[1:52:56] that's the reason when people talk about
[1:52:58] repetition compulsions you know that's
[1:53:00] it's not a formal term because because
[1:53:04] what we're really talking about is
[1:53:05] repetition right and we're interested
[1:53:07] like why why do we repeat things now
[1:53:09] that's one that's one reason right
[1:53:12] because we bring an unhealthy set of
[1:53:14] defenses and then at the end of the day
[1:53:17] things come out the same because we're
[1:53:18] bringing an unhealthy set of defenses
[1:53:20] right there can be other motivations
[1:53:23] that are related to all of that and
[1:53:25] there's again there's complexity to it
[1:53:27] but but the compulsion part can be that
[1:53:30] we can reenter situations that didn't go
[1:53:33] well with the idea that we're going to
[1:53:35] we're going to fix what happened in the
[1:53:37] past we're going to make ourselves feel
[1:53:38] better we're going to take away the mark
[1:53:41] of trauma because remember trauma
[1:53:42] doesn't care about the clock or the
[1:53:44] calendar so that's why you'll see
[1:53:46] someone who has had say five abusive
[1:53:48] relationships that looked very much the
[1:53:50] same right and is about to enter the
[1:53:53] sixth right and you said it's not
[1:53:56] because hopefully in most cases not
[1:53:58] because that person like wants to be
[1:54:00] hurt right I mean sometimes that's a
[1:54:01] different problem right but but there
[1:54:03] can be a drive inside of us to try and
[1:54:06] fix something if I can make it work this
[1:54:08] time I won't have to feel so bad about
[1:54:10] the other five right so an attempt to
[1:54:13] change the past through one's current
[1:54:16] actions right which is rooted in the
[1:54:18] lyic system and how and how trauma
[1:54:20] affects us and how again it's outside
[1:54:22] the clock in the calendar so that kind
[1:54:24] of magic so to speak can happen so the
[1:54:26] brain can seek that magic but again
[1:54:29] there are unhealthy defenses coming into
[1:54:30] play right there has to be denial right
[1:54:33] otherwise the person would map you know
[1:54:36] if the same thing happened five times
[1:54:37] and this looks the same it's probably
[1:54:39] going to happen now right so so anytime
[1:54:42] you think a person most often it's us
[1:54:45] right you know is smart enough or
[1:54:47] worldly enough to like know better which
[1:54:49] like happens all the time right then
[1:54:51] look for the answer right you say well
[1:54:53] shouldn't that person know better than
[1:54:55] to get into the six abusive relationship
[1:54:58] the answer is like yes right like
[1:55:00] because it's not that hard if you saw a
[1:55:02] set of circumstances five times to map
[1:55:04] that the six is going to have the same
[1:55:05] outcome right the person would do that
[1:55:07] in other scenarios right so then you say
[1:55:10] right that is true so now let's look for
[1:55:13] why the person doesn't recognize that
[1:55:16] and again we go down into the structure
[1:55:17] of self and the function of self defense
[1:55:20] mechanisms and action salience the
[1:55:22] things that we're talking about now does
[1:55:24] that fit yeah it makes sense and what
[1:55:26] what comes to mind is the idea of um
[1:55:28] getting into a car that you know is
[1:55:30] going to get into an accident over and
[1:55:33] over and over again but being quite
[1:55:37] cognizant of safety and its importance
[1:55:40] in every other domain of Life yes not
[1:55:42] even jaywalking right but getting into
[1:55:46] like if if certain Ubers arrived with a
[1:55:48] little flashing light that said this
[1:55:50] ride is going to have an accident it's
[1:55:52] like getting getting into that vehicle
[1:55:53] and I see this in others as well yes and
[1:55:55] and it raises all sorts of um questions
[1:55:58] like um is the person actually uh
[1:56:02] unconsciously afraid of the vehicle
[1:56:04] arriving where they want to go because
[1:56:06] then um like are people actually afraid
[1:56:08] of things working out um I mean this
[1:56:10] gets to something that I'm so sorry to
[1:56:13] can I can I say for that's why you have
[1:56:14] to know that the person right like who
[1:56:17] is that person right why do they not
[1:56:18] want to get in that car right are they
[1:56:20] afraid they're not going to get
[1:56:21] somewhere they afraid they're going to
[1:56:22] get somewhere right but ultimately we're
[1:56:24] looking for unhealthy defenses and I I
[1:56:27] so want to emphasize that that I you
[1:56:29] know I will often think that the aspect
[1:56:31] of my education that's most helpful in
[1:56:33] me doing my job when I'm when I'm in the
[1:56:36] job as as a practicing psychiatrist is
[1:56:39] is actually my mathematics minor right
[1:56:41] because there's a lot more math to this
[1:56:44] right people tend to think oh mental
[1:56:46] health it's all it's all esoteric and
[1:56:47] you can sort of say anything you know
[1:56:49] anything you you want and like there's
[1:56:50] no way of proving or disproving it's
[1:56:52] it's not like that at all right there's
[1:56:54] a mathematical aspect to it so if you do
[1:56:58] the correct logical Common Sense thing
[1:57:01] right in all aspects of your life except
[1:57:03] one and you're like a hundred times more
[1:57:06] intelligent than you need to be to
[1:57:07] figure it all out right then then if
[1:57:10] there's a carve out we say look that's
[1:57:12] of huge interest right I mean the
[1:57:14] probability that we're going to find
[1:57:16] something interesting there's 100% right
[1:57:18] because we know that you know better we
[1:57:20] know that you do better but but why why
[1:57:23] here so like that's so interesting right
[1:57:25] like that's where the x marks the spot
[1:57:26] like let's go dig there right so then
[1:57:29] when we go and dig there like we're
[1:57:30] going to find something right and and
[1:57:33] we'll see what is that like do we find
[1:57:35] that like oh it's an array of of really
[1:57:37] unhealthy defense mechanisms maybe we
[1:57:39] find that do we find that there's a deep
[1:57:41] unconscious motivation right like we
[1:57:43] might find that too right there we might
[1:57:46] find a lot of things right but we're
[1:57:48] going to find them if we go back to what
[1:57:51] is the structure of s
[1:57:53] what is the function of self if we go
[1:57:55] and look like that x marks the spot
[1:57:57] means there's Pay Dirt there right and
[1:57:59] then when we figure that out then we go
[1:58:02] through and we can make things change so
[1:58:04] if it's a deep-seated trauma driven
[1:58:06] unconscious motivation that is resulting
[1:58:09] in an unhealthy array of defense
[1:58:11] mechanisms well let's go look at that
[1:58:13] right let's look at the trauma let's
[1:58:14] take the thing that's unconscious and
[1:58:16] and bring it to Consciousness right then
[1:58:18] we can make that better and that array
[1:58:21] of unhealthy defenses again we're not
[1:58:22] going to change it overnight but can we
[1:58:24] change it very very significantly pretty
[1:58:28] rapidly probably yes and we can almost
[1:58:30] entirely change it across time so
[1:58:33] there's a mathematical aspect of this
[1:58:35] that I think is so important to point
[1:58:38] out because you know mental health just
[1:58:41] even as a field right just me we all
[1:58:42] want to be mentally healthy like there's
[1:58:44] a rhyme and reason to it that yes it
[1:58:47] follows science and yes it also follows
[1:58:49] common sense and if we apply those
[1:58:51] things we get to
[1:58:54] answers it's very reassuring um thank
[1:58:58] you thinking about the functions of self
[1:59:01] and again just to remind myself and and
[1:59:04] other people you it starts with
[1:59:06] self-awareness involves defense
[1:59:08] mechanisms in action then there's the
[1:59:10] salience piece but paying attention to
[1:59:13] what's inside of us as well as what's
[1:59:16] external and then you're now describing
[1:59:18] a lot of you know choices choic making
[1:59:20] and and behavior and action in the yes I
[1:59:23] have to assume that for for the person
[1:59:25] trying to improve themselves and get to
[1:59:28] agency and gratitude uh that paying
[1:59:31] attention to all of these is is
[1:59:32] important but of course if a defense
[1:59:35] mechanism is unconscious we can't simply
[1:59:37] decide okay I'm going to see the
[1:59:38] unconscious defense mechanism does that
[1:59:40] mean that we should ask ourselves about
[1:59:41] what is most Salient to us um or should
[1:59:45] we be focusing on our behavioral choices
[1:59:48] I mean in the example I just gave I'm
[1:59:50] aware of my behavioral choices making
[1:59:51] certain decisions
[1:59:53] to engage with certain people and and
[1:59:55] not with others
[1:59:58] uh but should I be asking for instance
[2:00:01] you know what Salient like like what are
[2:00:03] the thoughts leading up to that decision
[2:00:05] um in other words how does salience of
[2:00:08] internal and external uh cues and
[2:00:11] processes um relate to behavior and
[2:00:14] which of these should we be paying
[2:00:16] attention to if our goal is to
[2:00:17] eventually change our
[2:00:19] Behavior so so think about we're
[2:00:22] starting we're sort of starting at the
[2:00:24] bottom right so we're starting with okay
[2:00:25] there is an I right and that's just not
[2:00:28] not just an apprehension right there's a
[2:00:30] lot to that right so so for example I
[2:00:32] know someone who who is doing sort of
[2:00:34] mirror meditation staring into the
[2:00:36] mirror right looking back itself with an
[2:00:39] with a desire to be aware like there is
[2:00:41] a me like this me is in the world right
[2:00:43] this is the first I've ever heard of
[2:00:45] such a practice um except when I was in
[2:00:48] elementary school maybe it was the nth
[2:00:50] grade I had a teacher who t talked about
[2:00:52] look gave us an assignment to to look in
[2:00:55] the mirror and ask ourselves questions
[2:00:57] but if I understand correctly you think
[2:00:59] there's utility to people spending a few
[2:01:01] minutes or more looking in the mirror
[2:01:03] and thinking about oneself in the eye as
[2:01:04] a way to build up this self-awareness do
[2:01:07] I have that right if you want to take
[2:01:08] the best care of yourself that you can
[2:01:10] right you want to understand yourself
[2:01:12] the best you can you want to make your
[2:01:13] life the best it can be right then if
[2:01:16] there are answers right let's say the
[2:01:18] answers are in five or 10 different
[2:01:20] cupboards right look in all of them
[2:01:22] right I mean that's that's the idea
[2:01:24] right that if if we want to know
[2:01:26] something look everywhere for it and
[2:01:29] also realize what we are building right
[2:01:31] what we are creating may be a recipe
[2:01:33] there may be things from different
[2:01:34] cupboards that overlap so the way to
[2:01:37] translate that practically is to say to
[2:01:40] find the answers to what what is either
[2:01:42] ailing us why we're repeating things we
[2:01:44] don't want to repeat or even if things
[2:01:46] are going okay but we want them to be
[2:01:47] going better because we don't quite feel
[2:01:50] the peace and contentment we want to
[2:01:51] feel then look everywhere so in this the
[2:01:55] function of Self in the function of self
[2:01:57] start with the eye right there are ways
[2:02:00] of increasing self-awareness you know
[2:02:02] they can range from contemplation of
[2:02:04] self to meditation to looking in the
[2:02:06] mirror right there are things that we
[2:02:08] can do to more strongly emphasize to
[2:02:10] oursel that there is an eye and this eye
[2:02:13] is going through life right then we know
[2:02:16] that they're defense mechanisms and that
[2:02:18] they're present that they're acting in
[2:02:20] us right we can't just see them because
[2:02:22] they're unconscious but if we start
[2:02:24] thinking about them we can learn about
[2:02:26] them right and that's where salience
[2:02:28] comes into play sence kind of points
[2:02:29] both ways right salans can point us
[2:02:32] towards the unconscious mind right oh I
[2:02:35] I realize I'm doing this over and over
[2:02:37] again or I'm saying this thing to myself
[2:02:38] over and over again where's that coming
[2:02:40] from we start becoming curious about
[2:02:42] ourselves and we look to the unconscious
[2:02:45] mind and then we also look to the
[2:02:46] conscious mind that that's why after
[2:02:48] salience is behavior like what am I
[2:02:51] doing right and a lot of times we don't
[2:02:54] know just examples of we don't know why
[2:02:57] we're doing things right someone who
[2:02:58] wants to lose weight but always goes to
[2:03:00] the grocery store and comes home and is
[2:03:02] like has some sense of surprise that
[2:03:04] there are things there that they don't
[2:03:05] want to eat right like why am I behaving
[2:03:07] in a certain way why does certain things
[2:03:09] bother me when other things don't right
[2:03:11] why am I really touchy about one thing
[2:03:13] and not another why might there be
[2:03:15] things that bother others and not me or
[2:03:17] vice versa right so so you know we're
[2:03:20] looking at what's going on inside of us
[2:03:21] and then how we respond right because
[2:03:24] how what may be upsetting me or what's
[2:03:26] going on inside of me both conscious and
[2:03:29] unconscious right is then determining
[2:03:31] how I'm acting how I'm behaving in the
[2:03:34] world around me if I want a better job
[2:03:36] but I never take an interview for
[2:03:38] another job I'm not going to get another
[2:03:40] job if I want a romantic partner but I
[2:03:42] automatically turn away from anyone who
[2:03:44] Smiles at me I'm not going to have a
[2:03:46] romantic partner right if I want life to
[2:03:49] be better and there's a certain thing I
[2:03:50] repeat and I don't want to repeat that I
[2:03:52] want to understand myself better so I
[2:03:54] can change the behavior and that's why
[2:03:56] the the the function of self ends with
[2:03:59] strivings right because strivings are
[2:04:01] into the future I know there is an eye I
[2:04:03] know there's a network and web of
[2:04:04] defense mechanisms in action I know that
[2:04:07] there's salience going on inside of me
[2:04:09] and I'm only going to pay attention to a
[2:04:10] few things from the thousands I could
[2:04:12] pay attention to I want to be aware of
[2:04:14] that and have more control over that
[2:04:16] then I'm enacting behaviors I'm engaging
[2:04:19] in the world around me and ultimately I
[2:04:21] want things right I want life to be
[2:04:24] better I want to have that feeling that
[2:04:26] you can get to I want to be in the state
[2:04:28] of of agency and gratitude so again
[2:04:32] these two pillars structure of self
[2:04:35] function of self that's where all the
[2:04:37] answers are so they're all the cupboards
[2:04:40] right there there these five Cupboards
[2:04:42] in the structure of self and five in the
[2:04:43] function of self and I know there'll be
[2:04:45] a you know we'll have it out there in a
[2:04:46] PDF right because you can go back there
[2:04:48] and that's where the vast majority of
[2:04:52] answers are to both understanding and
[2:04:55] routes to change what you just described
[2:04:58] as incredibly helpful it's absolutely
[2:05:01] apparent to me why looking in all the
[2:05:03] cupboards is so key it's also apparent
[2:05:06] that um many different aspects of
[2:05:08] psychology and Psychiatry um at least as
[2:05:11] I understand them might probe for
[2:05:14] instance just at the level of behavior
[2:05:15] you know I think this is the the just do
[2:05:17] it Mantra well just do the right thing
[2:05:19] right you know you you're not finding a
[2:05:21] romantic like you know schedule three
[2:05:23] dinners with friends and ask them to
[2:05:24] invite over people who are looking for
[2:05:26] part sounds really simple right but um
[2:05:29] much as with the example of my friend
[2:05:30] who lost all this weight through
[2:05:32] behavioral change that the fear still
[2:05:34] lives within him very very strongly and
[2:05:36] so clearly there's some some stuff
[2:05:38] happening underneath there now
[2:05:39] fortunately he did lose the weight and
[2:05:40] he's kept most of it off but it's clear
[2:05:43] to me that until he addresses some of
[2:05:45] these other issues of sence and uh
[2:05:47] defense mechanism self-awareness Etc
[2:05:49] that um the fear he's still experiencing
[2:05:52] ing makes total sense because the
[2:05:54] foundation of that change is not nearly
[2:05:57] as strong as it could be um maybe right
[2:06:00] or maybe he doesn't have to have the
[2:06:01] fear but he's not going to learn either
[2:06:02] one without the exploration so he won't
[2:06:05] if there is risk he won't be able to
[2:06:07] avert the risk and if there's not risk
[2:06:10] he's then sort of laboring through life
[2:06:12] which is difficult enough without being
[2:06:13] worried about something you don't have
[2:06:14] to be worried about right so the process
[2:06:16] of inquiry will always make that better
[2:06:18] it's clear to me that his fear of
[2:06:20] regaining weight is absolutely sapping
[2:06:22] his enjoyment and his productivity in
[2:06:24] other domains of life so warrants
[2:06:26] attention right because because we're
[2:06:27] deciding in that sort of mathematical
[2:06:29] way like it doesn't have to be that way
[2:06:31] doesn't mean it can change overnight but
[2:06:33] it can be understood and it can be
[2:06:35] changed well it's for that reason and
[2:06:37] many other reasons that I'm very
[2:06:38] grateful that you explained these two
[2:06:40] pillars structure of self and function
[2:06:42] of self and how these flow up to uh
[2:06:44] empowerment and humility and how those
[2:06:46] flow up to agency and gratitude you've
[2:06:49] given us a a set of ideals and and and
[2:06:52] road map of of how to get there and one
[2:06:53] that we're going to continue with in a
[2:06:55] moment here um I did want to reiterate
[2:06:58] what you said which is that there is a
[2:07:00] pdf version of this this structure this
[2:07:02] road map of ideals and how to get there
[2:07:05] um that's been provided as a link in the
[2:07:07] show note captions um so people can
[2:07:09] refer to them there in visual form if
[2:07:11] they like if you're interested in
[2:07:13] understanding yourself and in having
[2:07:16] goodness in your life as much as you
[2:07:17] possibly can then you're interested in
[2:07:20] the structure of the mind and and this
[2:07:22] means that you're interested in the
[2:07:23] unconscious mind in all the things that
[2:07:25] go on a million things a second that we
[2:07:27] don't know or understand one by one but
[2:07:30] that we can explore and understand
[2:07:33] better in total we're also interested in
[2:07:35] the conscious mind in being self-aware
[2:07:38] we're interested in the array of defense
[2:07:40] mechanisms and whether or not they
[2:07:42] they're elegant and light passes clearly
[2:07:45] through them or whether they're
[2:07:46] distorting light and creating
[2:07:48] misperception right if you're interested
[2:07:50] in the structure of the mind then you're
[2:07:52] also interested in the character
[2:07:54] structure like what is your character
[2:07:56] structure what is the nest around all of
[2:07:58] it how do you interface with the world
[2:07:59] and then you're interested in the self
[2:08:01] that you grow from that
[2:08:03] phenomenologically meaning what is your
[2:08:04] experience of self how does it feel to
[2:08:07] you these are all important parts of
[2:08:11] this pillar of health and happiness the
[2:08:14] other pillar is the function of the mind
[2:08:16] and of course there's overlap there
[2:08:18] different cupboards but the cupboards
[2:08:19] all contain different ingredients that
[2:08:21] together make the recipe right so if
[2:08:23] we're interested in the function of the
[2:08:24] mind then we want to pay attention that
[2:08:27] there's an eye like we want to be
[2:08:28] self-aware and we want to cultivate
[2:08:31] self-awareness we're also interested in
[2:08:33] how those defense mechanisms work when
[2:08:35] they're in action right what's Salient
[2:08:37] inside of us and outside of us what are
[2:08:40] we paying attention to how are we
[2:08:42] behaving what are our strivings do we
[2:08:44] feel hopeful about ourselves and the
[2:08:46] world around us and if we're interested
[2:08:48] in all of these things we can't help but
[2:08:51] be respectful right of just how
[2:08:54] complicated this is like life is
[2:08:56] difficult and understanding ourselves is
[2:08:59] is difficult you know Wonderful Joy can
[2:09:02] come of living life but it is hard and
[2:09:04] it's hard day by day and trying to
[2:09:07] understand ourselves going to these
[2:09:09] places these pillars that hold the
[2:09:11] answers right they they can't but make
[2:09:14] in us a respect for all of it right and
[2:09:17] the respect for ourselves for others
[2:09:20] brings with it humil right when we come
[2:09:23] to this point of looking at ourselves
[2:09:25] and exploring then yes we become
[2:09:28] empowered right because we've gained a
[2:09:30] lot of knowledge right we're digging
[2:09:33] where the Pay Dirt is and we're figuring
[2:09:35] things out and along with that
[2:09:37] empowerment comes humility a
[2:09:39] respectfulness for how difficult all of
[2:09:41] this is how complicated we are how we
[2:09:44] can make happiness in our lives but how
[2:09:46] it certainly isn't easy and we take with
[2:09:49] us the empowerment and the humility
[2:09:52] and we express them right and if we're
[2:09:55] expressing empowerment and humility we
[2:09:58] come to living through agency and
[2:10:02] gratitude so here both are active words
[2:10:05] so agency it's it's easier to see right
[2:10:07] it's an active word where I'm aware of
[2:10:10] my ability to to project myself into the
[2:10:13] world around me I know that I can't
[2:10:15] control everything right but I'm really
[2:10:17] trying to understand what can I control
[2:10:20] right how can I control it what what do
[2:10:22] my decisions now lead to in the future
[2:10:25] so agency is very very active right
[2:10:28] gratitude is active too right because
[2:10:30] we're bringing an active sense of
[2:10:33] gratitude sense of the amazingness that
[2:10:36] we're here and and pride in ourselves
[2:10:38] and others for being here and and trying
[2:10:41] to move forward as best we can and then
[2:10:43] we bring that to our interactions we're
[2:10:45] much more likely to have a kind gesture
[2:10:47] towards others instead of being angry
[2:10:49] we're much more likely to have something
[2:10:51] compassion to say including to ourselves
[2:10:54] than we are to have something angry to
[2:10:56] say that gratitude accompanies agency
[2:10:59] they're they're active words and they're
[2:11:01] active together and if we're living life
[2:11:05] through agency and gratitude I mean
[2:11:07] there's a lot of wisdom about this
[2:11:08] there's a lot that's been written and
[2:11:10] researched about this and if you look at
[2:11:11] what is it telling us right remember
[2:11:13] things are getting simpler right as
[2:11:16] we're getting higher up the the levels
[2:11:18] here right the unconscious mind is most
[2:11:20] complicated now we're at hey can we live
[2:11:23] our lives with agency and gratitude at
[2:11:25] the Forefront and what does it bring for
[2:11:28] us and I think it brings what we are
[2:11:31] seeking that we might say okay we're
[2:11:32] seeking happiness and that can mean a
[2:11:34] lot of things you know a lot of
[2:11:35] different things it can be a very active
[2:11:37] thing am I happy in the moment and we
[2:11:39] can use happiness sometimes to distract
[2:11:41] ourselves like happiness is important
[2:11:43] but words when people really think like
[2:11:45] what is it that they want or what is it
[2:11:47] that they have right if if they're
[2:11:49] they're they're Overjoyed to be alive
[2:11:52] right they're finding a sense of Peace
[2:11:55] they're finding contentment they're
[2:11:57] finding Delight the ability to be
[2:11:59] delighted right this is what people want
[2:12:02] our our our human history and our our
[2:12:05] searchings tell us this and our own
[2:12:07] experiences tell us this and and now it
[2:12:10] could lead a person to think well okay
[2:12:12] what's going on I mean is is this
[2:12:13] someone who's you know levitating at the
[2:12:15] top of a mountain like is this just a
[2:12:17] state is this a state that people are in
[2:12:20] and and the answer is no it be sometimes
[2:12:22] we could be in that state where we can
[2:12:24] feel peace there's no tension inside of
[2:12:27] us right I could feel I have times when
[2:12:29] I don't feel tension inside of me
[2:12:30] there's contentment there's peace I
[2:12:31] don't have to drive towards anything
[2:12:34] right but it it's not the passive
[2:12:37] experience of it because we are living
[2:12:39] life it's that that feeling goes hand in
[2:12:43] hand with a drive within us that we're
[2:12:46] when we're in this healthy place we are
[2:12:49] living life the decisions that we're
[2:12:51] making what is putting the rubber to the
[2:12:53] road it is a generative Drive within us
[2:12:56] there is a drive to make things better
[2:12:59] to understand to explore and it's that
[2:13:02] drive that we access and cultivate and
[2:13:05] synonymous with happiness is it's not
[2:13:08] just the the state when people want to
[2:13:10] be happy in that very very general way
[2:13:12] yes contentment
[2:13:14] peace Delight right but but they're
[2:13:17] happening as we're living life right as
[2:13:20] we're enacting a generative Drive where
[2:13:23] we're looking at ourselves and the world
[2:13:25] around us and we're interested in
[2:13:27] understanding we're interested in making
[2:13:28] things better and that's the place that
[2:13:31] we're trying to get to I believe that
[2:13:33] with all my with all my heart and my and
[2:13:36] my brain right my education training
[2:13:38] experience and also experience living
[2:13:41] living life and and for 20 years doing
[2:13:43] this work with people tells me this is
[2:13:46] what we're seeking and it's an active
[2:13:48] way of of experiencing ourselves and our
[2:13:52] place in life I love that because it
[2:13:54] merges both the nouns and the adjectives
[2:13:58] and the verbs you know and and this
[2:14:00] notion of a generative drive to me is so
[2:14:03] compelling because um I have the sense
[2:14:07] and I hope I'm right that we all have
[2:14:10] some sort of generative Drive within us
[2:14:12] starting at an early stage um maybe it
[2:14:16] even starts as visual foraging or
[2:14:19] touching things with our hands as an
[2:14:21] infant and you know exploration of the
[2:14:22] world right is what brings about the
[2:14:25] changes in the neural circuitry that
[2:14:26] allow us to engage even more and in and
[2:14:29] in progressively on the one hand
[2:14:31] narrower ways but also with more
[2:14:33] richness and and more detail um could
[2:14:36] you tell us more about generative drive
[2:14:38] and and how this shows up in different
[2:14:41] types of people um is it always positive
[2:14:44] can there be too much of it um I
[2:14:47] certainly know a number of people who
[2:14:49] are addicted to work for those of you
[2:14:51] listening I'm raising my hand um but I
[2:14:54] would say nowadays I'm not as addicted
[2:14:55] to work as I once was in the sense that
[2:14:57] I derive far more satisfaction from less
[2:15:01] work now provided that the work is
[2:15:03] really indepth you know I think that
[2:15:06] there were years in in graduate school
[2:15:08] where I wanted to publish a bunch of
[2:15:09] papers and then quickly realized um
[2:15:12] through the not so gentle persuasion of
[2:15:14] my my mentors that like let's just do
[2:15:17] the best possible work we can do and
[2:15:18] there's so much more richness and and
[2:15:20] experience and things to be gained from
[2:15:22] that so I'm familiar with generative
[2:15:26] drive as as I understand it but maybe if
[2:15:29] you would if you could flush out a bit
[2:15:30] of what generative Drive is and and does
[2:15:32] it arrive um in parallel with or before
[2:15:36] we are able to access peace contentment
[2:15:38] and Delight um Can it even be separated
[2:15:41] out from that um now what what is this
[2:15:45] generative Drive yeah so drives are
[2:15:48] built into us so the the the synonymous
[2:15:52] with our existence like if we exist then
[2:15:55] then we have the drive I mean that
[2:15:56] that's how the drive is defined right
[2:15:59] and we understand going far back to to
[2:16:02] psychodynamic and psychoanalytic roots
[2:16:04] and and when people were really thinking
[2:16:06] hard about human beings and what's going
[2:16:08] on inside of us that we've sort of
[2:16:10] identified and then validated over the
[2:16:13] period of time since that we have
[2:16:15] aggressive drives within us and we have
[2:16:17] drives towards pleasure now this often
[2:16:20] gets misunderstood that so aggression
[2:16:23] can be uh it can be active violent
[2:16:25] aggression for example but aggression
[2:16:27] can also be sort of a sense of agency
[2:16:30] right the inaction of agency like I I
[2:16:32] want to do things I want to change
[2:16:33] things I want to I want to make the
[2:16:35] world a different place right that that
[2:16:37] all of that comes under this drive so so
[2:16:40] aggressive an aggressive drive is not a
[2:16:42] bad thing if we had no aggressive drives
[2:16:44] the thought is we just lie down and
[2:16:46] nothing else would happen and then we'd
[2:16:47] all be gone right so so there's a way in
[2:16:50] which this drive within us moves us
[2:16:52] forward right and of course it's
[2:16:54] extremely complicated the ways we can
[2:16:55] manifest too much of it or too little of
[2:16:57] it or how our defense mechanisms can
[2:17:00] intertwine with the drive but the drive
[2:17:02] is there it's like it's fuel within us
[2:17:05] that comes with our existence and then
[2:17:07] how that fuel moves us forward how much
[2:17:10] of it there is no that is determined by
[2:17:13] the meshing of the drive with how we're
[2:17:16] living life right and the same would be
[2:17:19] true of pleasure you know the pleasure
[2:17:20] Drive doesn't just mean like we all want
[2:17:22] to be hedonists right inside it means
[2:17:25] that we want things that are gratifying
[2:17:27] right we want to feel good right this
[2:17:28] isn't just you know the drive towards
[2:17:31] physical pleasure like a sex drive or or
[2:17:33] eating food or having Comfort like all
[2:17:36] of that can be part of it but it's a
[2:17:37] drive for Relief right the idea that we
[2:17:40] don't want to be white knuckling life
[2:17:43] right searching for pleasure so having
[2:17:46] aggression within us as we White Knuckle
[2:17:48] life and we search for some pleasure and
[2:17:50] and relief right these drives within us
[2:17:53] can be healthy they can be unhealthy you
[2:17:55] know they can be anything right they're
[2:17:58] they're they're Wells Springs within us
[2:18:01] that then fuel us forward and there's
[2:18:05] controversy to the idea of is there a
[2:18:07] generative drive and there's certainly
[2:18:09] at parts of the field that do not think
[2:18:11] so right but there have been strong
[2:18:13] thinkers in the field that have thought
[2:18:15] we do have a generative drive that it is
[2:18:17] within us to look around us to be be
[2:18:21] curious to be amazed right to think like
[2:18:25] how how can I engage with this and make
[2:18:26] this better or happier to think outside
[2:18:29] of ourselves right to think if I if if I
[2:18:32] feel good and you're in pain can I make
[2:18:34] you feel better right having nothing to
[2:18:37] do with me right the the idea of
[2:18:39] altruism coming to the four and having
[2:18:41] industriousness with us within us right
[2:18:44] and and the idea that there's a
[2:18:47] generative drive it it's strengthened
[2:18:49] when you look at how humans behave
[2:18:52] when you know we're not struggling right
[2:18:54] that that people are interested in
[2:18:55] learning you know you think about how
[2:18:57] how much of people give of themselves to
[2:18:59] learning right or to serving others like
[2:19:01] there's so much of this goodness in the
[2:19:04] world around us now if we shut people
[2:19:07] away right they have no you know imagine
[2:19:09] you know God forbid someone is in a
[2:19:11] solitary confinement from when they're
[2:19:12] the moment they're born you know then
[2:19:14] there there's not an opportunity for the
[2:19:16] generative drive to thrive right and we
[2:19:18] see so many so many situations where it
[2:19:21] doesn't Thrive enough right you know
[2:19:24] violence in people's surroundings lack
[2:19:26] of opportunities right that we can
[2:19:29] squelch a generative Drive anyone's
[2:19:31] generative drive but if we give
[2:19:33] ourselves opportunities if you know if
[2:19:35] we're healthy that we're not weighed
[2:19:37] down by trauma and illness and
[2:19:39] misperceptions of self and we can live
[2:19:41] life in a way that brings us to agency
[2:19:44] and gratitude now we're allying with the
[2:19:47] generative drive that I absolutely
[2:19:49] believe is within us I think just look
[2:19:52] at life look at human beings we observe
[2:19:55] that we have this drive within us and if
[2:19:58] that drive is at the Forefront and that
[2:20:00] drive then naturally of course allies
[2:20:03] with agency and gratitude then I think
[2:20:06] we're at the place that is the place we
[2:20:09] we ultimately seek right and that we can
[2:20:11] find it for brief periods of time so so
[2:20:16] by really pursuing this and and like
[2:20:18] really strongly in my own therapy and
[2:20:19] reflection and attempts to understand I
[2:20:22] can have periods of time where I can
[2:20:24] feel that way I I can feel outward
[2:20:26] growth and interest in the world and and
[2:20:29] I feel good I'm not trying to answer
[2:20:30] some question of like why am I alive or
[2:20:32] like I'm doing things that I feel good
[2:20:34] about and I feel good about doing those
[2:20:38] things and about being in the world and
[2:20:41] and I think this is not uncommon you
[2:20:42] know it may be far more common in
[2:20:44] societies that are allegedly less
[2:20:47] Advanced right that is have less
[2:20:49] distractions or maybe you know less
[2:20:51] uh knowledge of of all the awful things
[2:20:53] in the world that can happen to us that
[2:20:54] are constantly fed to us like there's
[2:20:56] there a whole bunch of other questions
[2:20:58] and topics about it but but this this
[2:21:02] you know I have this absolute belief
[2:21:04] that there's this generative Drive in us
[2:21:06] that wants to AE with agency and
[2:21:09] gratitude and that we all have it within
[2:21:11] us to bring those to the Forefront and
[2:21:14] to find that thing that we seek whether
[2:21:16] some this person says it's Nirvana the
[2:21:18] other person says it's Joy or happiness
[2:21:20] or peace or numbing you know whatever it
[2:21:23] is there's there's something to it where
[2:21:26] we're not feeling the tension within us
[2:21:28] we're not feeling the anxiety the
[2:21:30] pressures but we're feeling a sense of
[2:21:32] goodness the way you're describing it um
[2:21:35] makes perfect sense why peace
[2:21:37] contentment and Delight be so closely
[2:21:40] linked to this generative drive you know
[2:21:43] the the word peace as you alluded to is
[2:21:46] often um brings to mind the idea of of
[2:21:50] passivity
[2:21:52] but generative drive and the inclusion
[2:21:54] of things like aggression and a drive
[2:21:56] for pleasure are anything but passive uh
[2:22:00] so I think that's important uh for me
[2:22:02] and for everyone to understand that um
[2:22:05] Peace contentment and Delight can really
[2:22:08] be action terms again move moving them
[2:22:10] from uh you know from the more typical
[2:22:14] conception of them to to verb States so
[2:22:18] peace contentment and Delight are are
[2:22:21] not passive States I mean there can be
[2:22:24] periods of time where we can be just
[2:22:26] very peaceful and very much at rest but
[2:22:29] but those words are not synonymous with
[2:22:32] inaction right in fact they're
[2:22:34] synonymous with action a lot of the time
[2:22:38] right if we are suffused with peace
[2:22:41] contentment the ability to Delight then
[2:22:44] what we're doing is we're raising up the
[2:22:46] generative Drive we're making conditions
[2:22:48] that are permissive for the generative
[2:22:50] Drive dve to come to the Forefront right
[2:22:53] to be Paramount over the aggressive and
[2:22:56] the pleasure drives right and remember
[2:22:58] we're not trying to get rid of those
[2:22:59] drives right we just want the generative
[2:23:02] Drive in us to be at the Forefront then
[2:23:05] we'll be able to harness the aggressive
[2:23:07] drive through for example a strong sense
[2:23:09] of agency fueling the sense of agency
[2:23:12] forward as opposed to destructive
[2:23:15] aggression right the search for pleasure
[2:23:17] which sure can include physical
[2:23:19] Pleasures in in ways that are good and
[2:23:21] reasonable and healthy for us but also
[2:23:23] the pleasure of learning right the
[2:23:25] pleasure that altruism brings that we
[2:23:28] can take the aggressive drive that we
[2:23:30] know is in us and the pleasure drive
[2:23:32] that we know is in us and we can dial
[2:23:35] them to the right places like this gets
[2:23:37] very complicated and it's easy to dial
[2:23:39] that too far up and it's easy to dial it
[2:23:41] too far down right but if both are
[2:23:44] serving the generative drive because we
[2:23:48] lift up the generative drive and we
[2:23:50] bring it to Primacy by being able to
[2:23:53] handle Our Lives to understand ourselves
[2:23:55] to go back to those pillars and to build
[2:23:57] upon it the agency and the gratitude
[2:24:00] that then leads us to peace contentment
[2:24:03] and Delight we can put all of this
[2:24:05] together and like we're really and truly
[2:24:07] living in an active way in the world
[2:24:11] that's good for us good for the world
[2:24:13] around us and doesn't leave us with a
[2:24:15] sense of Yearning or sense of tension
[2:24:17] within
[2:24:18] us do you think it's also the case that
[2:24:21] generative drive has kind of a um
[2:24:24] self-amplification feature to it what
[2:24:27] comes to mind is your describing
[2:24:29] generative drive and its relationship to
[2:24:31] peace contentment and Delight is that
[2:24:33] approximately a half hour after I wake
[2:24:35] up I start to feel um more physically
[2:24:39] energized I'm not somebody who just pops
[2:24:40] out of bed and is ready to go exercise
[2:24:42] or do mental work um but about 30
[2:24:46] minutes or so after waking my my mind
[2:24:48] starts to wake up and I've noticed that
[2:24:50] if I read a scientific paper or if I
[2:24:54] read a chapter in a book or if I um do
[2:24:57] something that feels a little bit
[2:24:59] difficult cognitively difficult in
[2:25:02] particular that um the sense of
[2:25:05] satisfaction that I get from that is
[2:25:08] immense and it it's not necessarily the
[2:25:11] case that I have to learn something that
[2:25:12] I'm going to use that day but for me
[2:25:15] learning and um and often learning and
[2:25:17] sharing what I learn uh with the world
[2:25:19] whether or not they want to hear it or
[2:25:20] not
[2:25:21] um is part of my uh pleasure Loop and um
[2:25:26] and I've learned that if I don't capture
[2:25:29] some new knowledge in a way that's
[2:25:32] challenging um in the morning time um I
[2:25:35] I feel like the gears are still turning
[2:25:38] but but I start to lose energy whereas
[2:25:41] if I find something interesting in
[2:25:43] particular and and I write it down and
[2:25:46] and I feel like I own it that's what I
[2:25:47] enjoy so much about learning it's like
[2:25:48] it's in there maybe it'll be useful at
[2:25:50] some point maybe it won't but it's like
[2:25:52] a it's like a animal finding a tool that
[2:25:54] it can maybe use to forge more more
[2:25:56] effectively later in life I I get such a
[2:25:59] sense of satisfaction that then I find
[2:26:01] that I have immense energy to do
[2:26:03] whatever is next like whether or not
[2:26:05] that's exercise or learn more or prepare
[2:26:07] a podcast or write a grant or um or work
[2:26:10] on a paper and this feature of my mental
[2:26:12] life has is so prominent that um I
[2:26:16] almost have to force myself to do it
[2:26:18] each day and there are so many
[2:26:19] distractions in the world nowadays that
[2:26:22] I've come to a place where I almost have
[2:26:23] to force myself to do what I know works
[2:26:26] for me um but when I do it it feels like
[2:26:30] a almost like a chemical Rocket Fuel and
[2:26:34] and it doesn't make me manic or crazy I
[2:26:35] don't need to pick up the phone and call
[2:26:37] somebody or tell everybody about it or
[2:26:39] post on social media it's more of a deep
[2:26:41] sense of satisfaction and and I get
[2:26:44] energy from it is that the generative
[2:26:47] Drive well it's great that that works
[2:26:48] for you what what you're saying is that
[2:26:50] that for you like you can prime your
[2:26:53] generative drive that way right and then
[2:26:55] you prime it you prime the pump it gets
[2:26:57] revved up right like and then and then
[2:26:59] you know it's it's really manifesting
[2:27:01] itself inside of you I mean there's many
[2:27:03] different manifestations of the
[2:27:06] generative drive as there are people
[2:27:08] right so some things are going to work
[2:27:09] for some person other things are going
[2:27:11] to work for a different person right but
[2:27:13] but but you're saying that hey I know
[2:27:15] this thing works for me and even though
[2:27:17] sometimes it's not easy to do I do it
[2:27:19] and then look what it gets for me right
[2:27:22] and that's that's really healthy right
[2:27:25] it's like knowing that this thing works
[2:27:26] for you and then you become committed to
[2:27:28] it because your generative Drive is is
[2:27:30] is really strongly supported by it right
[2:27:33] and then you have this sense of Good
[2:27:34] Feeling right so then you have you have
[2:27:37] the peace and you have the you just the
[2:27:40] overall sense of goodness right the you
[2:27:43] know peace and contentment and Delight
[2:27:45] you're getting that in learning and in
[2:27:47] teaching so so you you're figuring out
[2:27:49] like hey this works for me right and
[2:27:51] again you don't have to figure it out
[2:27:52] through this lens it's if we find parts
[2:27:54] that aren't working then we go back and
[2:27:56] we figure them out right maybe a good
[2:27:59] example maybe is um so let's say you
[2:28:03] take someone who who really enjoys
[2:28:05] gardening and gets something out of
[2:28:07] gardening right so there are as many
[2:28:09] generative drives and how they're
[2:28:10] measured out as there are humans but
[2:28:12] there can be common outcomes of them
[2:28:14] right so the enjoyment of of fostering
[2:28:17] plants growing a garden is like that's
[2:28:18] not uncommon in humans right so imagine
[2:28:21] someone who hasn't been doing that right
[2:28:25] they really want to they have a drive to
[2:28:26] do it there's a plot of land in the back
[2:28:28] that they used to cultivate right so if
[2:28:30] they're not doing it there any number of
[2:28:32] reasons maybe maybe they were depressed
[2:28:34] and they needed mental health treatment
[2:28:36] maybe they just got away from the path
[2:28:38] that they were on maybe their defenses
[2:28:40] shifted a little bit whatever the case
[2:28:42] may be they go back to the pillars and
[2:28:44] they figure it out right and now they're
[2:28:47] in accord with themselves right and
[2:28:50] they're living through agency and
[2:28:52] gratitude and they feel like right I can
[2:28:54] go back out there and I can till that
[2:28:57] land I can you know I can get the hoe
[2:28:59] out I can you know I can make the plots
[2:29:02] I'm going to put the seeds in I'm going
[2:29:03] to nurture like I can go do that and I
[2:29:05] can do it even what even though I was
[2:29:08] depressed even though somebody assaulted
[2:29:09] me five months ago you know even though
[2:29:12] I lost my job even though even though
[2:29:13] even though right they overcome the even
[2:29:16] those right and the sense of agency
[2:29:18] tells them right I can go do that right
[2:29:21] and the sense of gratitude no one who's
[2:29:23] miserable and and and now is you know is
[2:29:26] in such an awful position about life
[2:29:28] because they were attacked or lost their
[2:29:30] job or something bad happened whatever
[2:29:31] it may be or they're lost in cynicism
[2:29:34] there's no gratitude there right it's a
[2:29:36] gratitude for being in life for having
[2:29:38] the capability of going back and and you
[2:29:42] and planting seeds in that Garden that's
[2:29:44] the alliance between agency and
[2:29:46] gratitude and then the person goes and
[2:29:49] does that
[2:29:51] right so think of what's going on there
[2:29:53] they do this thing they feel good about
[2:29:54] this thing they can have they can look
[2:29:56] out at the Garden feel some peace right
[2:29:58] feel some contentment to them be
[2:30:00] delighted by what they did remember how
[2:30:02] much they loved it before how much it
[2:30:04] means to them so yes that goodness comes
[2:30:08] that goodness suffuses us and it raises
[2:30:11] up the generative drive that says right
[2:30:13] it's it's good we breathe some life into
[2:30:15] it right enough to get that Garden done
[2:30:18] now the generative Drive is further
[2:30:21] fostered forward by the goodness the
[2:30:23] person feels so so the example and the
[2:30:25] difference between the person who's like
[2:30:28] wants a garden feels terrible about
[2:30:29] themselves and they're not doing it and
[2:30:31] they feels lousy every time they look
[2:30:33] out the window and there they are
[2:30:34] looking out the window right the
[2:30:36] difference between that and having made
[2:30:37] a garden and looking out the window at
[2:30:39] it is a night and day difference and the
[2:30:43] the the person who's looking out the
[2:30:44] window with the garden that they built
[2:30:46] overcoming whatever was inside of them
[2:30:48] because they they went and addressed it
[2:30:50] and and prove to themselves that they
[2:30:52] could that's what we're after in life
[2:30:54] right it's we all know this it doesn't
[2:30:56] look like somebody levitating at the top
[2:30:57] of a mountain right that's what it looks
[2:30:59] like the person looking out the window
[2:31:01] at the Garden and thinking about what
[2:31:03] they overc overcame to create the garden
[2:31:06] and seeing the goodness of it all yeah
[2:31:08] I'm glad you said the word creating
[2:31:10] because it seems It's about creating
[2:31:12] things real tangible things but that the
[2:31:15] process to get there is every bit as
[2:31:17] important as what's created when you
[2:31:20] create knowledge that that's tangible
[2:31:22] right like you you you create knowledge
[2:31:23] maybe that that person looks down the
[2:31:25] row of beautiful flowers and has the
[2:31:27] same sense of goodness inside of them
[2:31:29] that you do when you're well like right
[2:31:31] I just I just went and learned something
[2:31:33] as you described that I I'm thinking I I
[2:31:35] certainly hope so because for me it's
[2:31:38] it's an incredible sense of satisfaction
[2:31:41] and and um one that I enjoy so much that
[2:31:44] I almost don't want to look at it too
[2:31:45] much cuz to me it it sits in this um uh
[2:31:48] rare domain of perfect like it's just it
[2:31:50] just feels so good and um and that I can
[2:31:55] get back there is very is very
[2:31:56] comforting to me right and that's all of
[2:31:59] this that it feels so good that's what
[2:32:01] all this is It's the generative drive
[2:32:03] right it's the it's the Gratitude right
[2:32:06] it's the contentment it's like all that
[2:32:08] coming together and it's interesting we
[2:32:09] could contrast that to to when you
[2:32:12] talked about a repeated cycle that's
[2:32:13] negative right then you're not feeling
[2:32:15] that right so so think about the
[2:32:17] learning that can come from it right
[2:32:19] that you you can you can achieve this
[2:32:21] and feel this and be in this state in
[2:32:23] one aspect of your life like what can
[2:32:25] you learn from that to bring to the
[2:32:27] other place and more yes that's
[2:32:29] important it's more it's often starting
[2:32:31] with what's going on in the place that's
[2:32:33] not doing well right like I said why the
[2:32:35] repetition right so this is how we we
[2:32:38] can have what we're seeking in parts of
[2:32:41] our Lives even if we don't in others but
[2:32:43] if we can have it in parts of our Lives
[2:32:45] we can have it in others too and we can
[2:32:47] become role models for ourselves we can
[2:32:49] learn from ourselves eles we can learn
[2:32:51] from what brings the good to how to
[2:32:54] raise up the things that about us in our
[2:32:56] lives that aren't there
[2:32:59] yet I often get the question H from the
[2:33:02] general public how can I stop
[2:33:05] overthinking you know I I have to
[2:33:07] imagine based on the fact I get that
[2:33:09] question so often that there are a great
[2:33:11] number of people who um sense their own
[2:33:15] generative Drive what are your thoughts
[2:33:17] on that thinking can be wonderful if
[2:33:20] we're using thinking to learn right to
[2:33:23] figure things out so when thinking is
[2:33:25] doing that thinking is great but a lot
[2:33:28] of thinking is just in the service of
[2:33:31] something else right and a lot of
[2:33:33] thinking works against us so imagine the
[2:33:36] person making the garden right at the
[2:33:39] person has to think about it they have
[2:33:40] to think about what seeds to make they
[2:33:41] have to think about where the the tools
[2:33:43] are they have to think about what
[2:33:44] they're doing when they're planting when
[2:33:45] they're watering there's a lot to do but
[2:33:48] the beauty of it isn't in the thinking
[2:33:50] right the thinking is in the service of
[2:33:54] what is generative right so so that's a
[2:33:57] different kind it's it's just thinking
[2:33:58] in the service of something but a lot of
[2:34:00] our thinking is that you know it's it's
[2:34:02] planning it's projecting we tend to
[2:34:04] glorify the planning and the projecting
[2:34:06] and and it can be great when we're
[2:34:08] learning when we're figuring things out
[2:34:10] but a lot of that is is there so that we
[2:34:12] can do the things that are good for us
[2:34:14] to do right the planning and the
[2:34:16] projecting around making the garden
[2:34:17] where the point of it is the garden it's
[2:34:19] not the thinking part right we can also
[2:34:22] use thinking against us so much thinking
[2:34:25] is repetitive and and not just not just
[2:34:28] unproductive but harmful right that
[2:34:31] person who's looking out the window at
[2:34:33] the Garden may be thinking I mean
[2:34:36] sometimes there just pauses in our
[2:34:37] thinking but you know a lot of times a
[2:34:39] person must be thinking and and what
[2:34:42] often goes on there is just repetitive
[2:34:45] negative thinking it's you know gosh I
[2:34:48] used to have a garden I remember when
[2:34:49] that was beautiful or know remember
[2:34:53] before such and such a person passed
[2:34:55] away and then we stopped making the
[2:34:57] Garden or I'll never be able to make a
[2:34:59] garden again or gosh it's too much you
[2:35:01] know it's just something that's negative
[2:35:03] and unproductive I mean what else is
[2:35:05] there to think if the person's actually
[2:35:07] looking at the window at the Garden
[2:35:09] right and they're in this sort of stuck
[2:35:10] state they're not in a generative State
[2:35:12] then the thinking becomes becomes
[2:35:14] repetitive and it furthers all the
[2:35:16] negative right as we said The more we
[2:35:18] further the negative the more we take if
[2:35:19] there's a four-lane Highway that we want
[2:35:21] to atrophy let's not make it into a six
[2:35:23] Lane Highway you know but but we do that
[2:35:26] when when we have this repetitive
[2:35:27] thinking which then can evolve into the
[2:35:29] narratives the things that we say to
[2:35:31] ourselves right so so you thinking is
[2:35:35] wonderful it's wonderful but it can also
[2:35:38] just subserve something else and it can
[2:35:40] also be used against us so what we're
[2:35:42] talking about here doesn't glorify
[2:35:44] thinking I mean it does if it's in the
[2:35:46] service of the generative drive but it
[2:35:48] doesn't in and of itself
[2:35:50] I think many people um set a time say
[2:35:56] you know 9:30 a.m. or 10: a.m. when they
[2:35:58] are going to begin doing something that
[2:36:00] they want to do or know they should do
[2:36:03] that's a little bit challenging could be
[2:36:04] exercise could be cognitively demanding
[2:36:07] work and then 10:00 rolls around they
[2:36:09] say Okay 10:15 and they're distracted by
[2:36:13] often social media texting these days I
[2:36:15] think those are the main culprits really
[2:36:18] um I don't know too many people that get
[2:36:19] distracted by
[2:36:20] exercise and reading books some do um
[2:36:24] and doing complex puzzles or math but um
[2:36:28] you know social media is a little bit
[2:36:29] like mental chewing gum except that I
[2:36:32] would add to that it's the kind of
[2:36:33] chewing gum that um really does um sate
[2:36:36] the appetite in a way that prevents you
[2:36:38] from eating nutritious food unless used
[2:36:40] correctly right um and then people feel
[2:36:45] bad about themselves because the whole
[2:36:47] morning went by now it's noon then they
[2:36:50] require some food like any typical
[2:36:52] person and they eat then they might KN a
[2:36:54] little nap for the Post prandial dip in
[2:36:57] energy and then the afternoon and and
[2:36:59] then it goes on and on I mean I I hear
[2:37:01] this all the time I've experienced this
[2:37:03] before so I'm I'm not immune to this
[2:37:05] myself that's why I try and capture that
[2:37:07] early wave of energy whatever it might
[2:37:09] be adrenaline noradrenaline uh some
[2:37:13] combination the way you describe
[2:37:15] thinking and its potential relationship
[2:37:17] to generative drive it seems to me it's
[2:37:20] so important that we capture those
[2:37:22] moments of um potential creation how
[2:37:27] however small the action might be to
[2:37:29] remind ourselves that we are capable of
[2:37:31] moving things from point A to point B
[2:37:34] because in the description I just gave
[2:37:35] of the person that lets the morning
[2:37:37] Escape there's there's really um no
[2:37:41] external barrier except these
[2:37:43] distractions put differently all the
[2:37:45] tools exist within most all of us to be
[2:37:48] able to create what we want to create at
[2:37:50] least to create something right I mean
[2:37:52] right um and yet many many people just
[2:37:57] don't fulfill that um that right that
[2:38:00] they were and that we've all been given
[2:38:02] right so let's think think about what's
[2:38:04] going on there so so the person says I'm
[2:38:07] going to exercise at 10:00 right now
[2:38:09] they push it back to 10:15 and they do
[2:38:11] something on social media they push it
[2:38:13] back to 10:30 it'll be okay I'll get it
[2:38:16] all in what they're doing is they're
[2:38:18] they're engaging in is unhealthy defense
[2:38:20] mechanisms right so if we go back to the
[2:38:23] the pillars right the the structure of
[2:38:25] self the function of self there may be
[2:38:27] other reasons for it but let's just
[2:38:29] identify the unhealthy defenses of
[2:38:32] avoidance and rationalization right and
[2:38:35] then there's no thinking going on about
[2:38:38] that right they're just unconscious
[2:38:39] processes and you kick it down you know
[2:38:41] you kick it down the clock 15 minutes
[2:38:43] right they not thinking about it
[2:38:45] thinking then is subserving something
[2:38:47] different right the thinking is
[2:38:48] subserving the avoidance if I'm going to
[2:38:50] go look on something read a couple
[2:38:52] things reply you know I'm thinking I'm
[2:38:54] planning right I got to get the maybe I
[2:38:56] got to get the phone out I got to tap
[2:38:57] you know my code into it I got to go to
[2:38:59] a certain website like we're doing
[2:39:01] something that we're thinking about it I
[2:39:02] think about what I'm going to write back
[2:39:04] but the thinking is all in the service
[2:39:07] of the unhealthy defenses right so then
[2:39:10] by understanding ourselves better we can
[2:39:13] we can bring that right to a healthier
[2:39:16] Place how by by actually using thinking
[2:39:19] for what helps us right so let's think
[2:39:21] of like what okay what's going let's say
[2:39:23] if you're doing that okay what's going
[2:39:25] on when you're doing that right so so do
[2:39:28] you you you really want to exercise
[2:39:30] right but like it's not easy to exercise
[2:39:32] and sometimes mightbe just problem
[2:39:33] solving are you doing a thing you like
[2:39:35] maybe something you like more there's
[2:39:36] lower barrier Etc but let's say we're
[2:39:38] just working within the psychological
[2:39:41] right then you can come at that a couple
[2:39:43] of ways like I don't want to do that
[2:39:45] thing that thing's hard right I mean I
[2:39:47] think that about things in my life
[2:39:49] sometimes and it always makes me H makes
[2:39:51] me weighty and unhappy right I may as
[2:39:54] well put 20 lb weights on either side of
[2:39:56] me right I mean I can look at it that
[2:39:58] way right or there's a different way of
[2:40:01] looking at it that actually fits much
[2:40:03] better which is like I'm not daunted by
[2:40:05] doing difficult things and I can get out
[2:40:07] there and and apply myself and you know
[2:40:09] and I feel good about that when I do
[2:40:11] difficult things it's like part of my
[2:40:13] identity right it's like part of how I
[2:40:14] see myself so right I'm going to go do
[2:40:16] this thing and I'm going to feel good
[2:40:18] about it and and isn't it amazing that I
[2:40:20] get to do it right like look here I am
[2:40:21] I'm alive I'm healthy right I can go do
[2:40:23] this thing my health is is good but I
[2:40:25] want to make it better right by working
[2:40:27] out or I'm at least alive and if I lose
[2:40:30] a little bit of weight I'll feel
[2:40:31] healthier like come on this is good
[2:40:34] right and then I'll feel different about
[2:40:35] that right and and like truth is one or
[2:40:38] the other it's like oh both can be true
[2:40:40] now what will be true is what you choose
[2:40:42] right and if you choose the negative
[2:40:45] then yes the unhealthy defense is
[2:40:46] perpetuated even if you get yourself to
[2:40:48] do it today it's harder to do it
[2:40:49] tomorrow tomorrow that's why sometimes
[2:40:50] I'll say to a person like just take a
[2:40:52] look at it and decide if you want to do
[2:40:53] it or not if you don't want to exercise
[2:40:55] just decide you don't right and then
[2:40:58] okay there's a trade-off for everything
[2:40:59] maybe you're okay with the trade-off
[2:41:01] right but what am I trying to do there
[2:41:03] right is is bring to Consciousness that
[2:41:05] that person is making a choice right do
[2:41:07] you want to do it if you want to do it
[2:41:09] if you want to do it it's great to just
[2:41:11] do it right and if you don't it's it's
[2:41:13] great to not do it at least you're being
[2:41:14] honest and clear with yourself and
[2:41:16] you're not wasting all that time when
[2:41:17] you keep kicking it 15 minutes down the
[2:41:20] you know down the clock you know until
[2:41:22] it's too late does does that make sense
[2:41:24] that's I think how the structure here
[2:41:26] really does it works because it's it's
[2:41:29] pulling together what we know from the
[2:41:31] biology to the psychology of like how to
[2:41:34] understand ourselves and how to
[2:41:35] understand when things aren't the way we
[2:41:37] want them to be so that we can make them
[2:41:39] the way we want them to be it's not
[2:41:41] magic it's it's following the sort of
[2:41:43] mathematical aspects of you know going
[2:41:46] to the factors assessing them making
[2:41:47] changes and and then of course we see
[2:41:50] the outcome we want to see the way you
[2:41:51] describe it does make sense and I I
[2:41:54] appreciate it because I think ultimately
[2:41:57] it seems to ratchet back to actions to
[2:41:59] verbs to bring us to these feeling
[2:42:01] states that you know I think are what
[2:42:04] people are seeking you know peace
[2:42:06] contentment Delight you know through
[2:42:08] agency gratitude as active terms right
[2:42:10] there yes you know I think these are
[2:42:12] Universal desires and again you're
[2:42:14] providing this um wonderful road map for
[2:42:17] people to arrive there thank you I do
[2:42:20] have a question about some of the
[2:42:21] underpinnings of generative Drive in
[2:42:23] particular this um notion of aggressive
[2:42:26] Drive um I've known people that seem to
[2:42:29] have a lot of this they just have a lot
[2:42:31] of get up and go or a lot of drive to
[2:42:34] create in the world or to figure things
[2:42:36] out um they often do create great lives
[2:42:39] for themselves in in work and
[2:42:41] relationship Etc I've also observe that
[2:42:43] these people often don't have the best
[2:42:45] relationship to themselves or that they
[2:42:46] run up against um barriers or L
[2:42:50] sometimes straight into brick walls um
[2:42:52] in certain domains of their life perhaps
[2:42:54] as a consequence of having too much of
[2:42:56] this generative or aggressive
[2:42:58] drive and at the same time I know that
[2:43:00] there are people in the world many that
[2:43:03] have of a what seems to be a low
[2:43:06] generative Drive I I don't know if
[2:43:08] that's the case or not but um that they
[2:43:11] um they seem to have a hard time
[2:43:12] engaging like in doing things and and
[2:43:15] often you get the impression that they
[2:43:18] somewhat are completely given up
[2:43:20] like they just like life is just too
[2:43:21] hard or um sometimes it's even more
[2:43:24] subtle like I know someone who they like
[2:43:27] their job but they've come to the place
[2:43:30] that um you know like it's just work
[2:43:33] like it's a paycheck and and that might
[2:43:35] be enough but they're always talking
[2:43:37] about it so I have to assume that it's
[2:43:39] not enough they aren't able to slot
[2:43:40] their work into one domain and and just
[2:43:42] focus on the other uh aspects of their
[2:43:44] life that are going well it doesn't
[2:43:46] compensate for them to think about the
[2:43:48] other aspects of their life that is so
[2:43:50] um is there a Continuum of generative
[2:43:53] drives that exist in us are these
[2:43:54] intrinsic I I realize there are near
[2:43:56] infinite number of conditions that um
[2:43:59] could give rise to one or the other
[2:44:01] could be hardwired could be nature could
[2:44:03] be nurture but what is the relationship
[2:44:06] between kind of um I want to say arousal
[2:44:10] or um the potential for arousal and
[2:44:13] aggressive drive and uh and these things
[2:44:16] that we're seeking yeah yeah so if it's
[2:44:19] okay I I'd like to start like the first
[2:44:21] principles of the drives right so the
[2:44:24] the theory of drives came about when
[2:44:27] when people were observing very closely
[2:44:29] like human beings and human behavior
[2:44:32] individuals uh societies cultures right
[2:44:35] and and identifying that hey that that
[2:44:38] you can boil a lot of things down to to
[2:44:42] a drive that we call aggressive right
[2:44:45] there's something to like impose myself
[2:44:47] out there on the world around me right
[2:44:49] it explains a lot of what people do
[2:44:52] right and then the the other identified
[2:44:54] Drive was pleasure right was you know so
[2:44:58] enjoyment even relief of unpleasantness
[2:45:00] right that that the those like you can
[2:45:02] describe a lot of human behavior and and
[2:45:05] that to understand like what's going on
[2:45:07] inside of us that means that we're here
[2:45:10] right you see that through the lens of
[2:45:13] aggressive and pleasure drives and like
[2:45:16] that's the answer to it to how we
[2:45:18] survive but I think that is not the
[2:45:21] answer to it that if it were just
[2:45:24] aggressive drives and pleasure drives
[2:45:27] there's not a value system around that
[2:45:29] like you know somebody who's very
[2:45:31] industrious can build or destroy right
[2:45:34] and we see this in historical figures
[2:45:36] like being very intelligent and very
[2:45:37] industriousness has nothing to do with
[2:45:39] whether you're building or destroying
[2:45:41] right so if it were just an aggressive
[2:45:44] drive and a pleasure drive then we
[2:45:47] wouldn't be having this conversation
[2:45:49] right because the species would have
[2:45:52] would not have survived right so if you
[2:45:54] believe that and I believe that then you
[2:45:57] look for something else you say maybe we
[2:45:58] looked and we found two things and there
[2:46:00] more things right and then we start
[2:46:02] thinking about learning for learning's
[2:46:04] sake altruism things that are not
[2:46:06] explained right unless there's a
[2:46:08] self-referential where you feel good
[2:46:09] doing something for someone else so
[2:46:10] therefore it's selfish like there's a
[2:46:12] lot of gyration around that if you
[2:46:14] really observe humans you do see altruis
[2:46:17] altruism you see learning for learning
[2:46:20] sake you see people being benign when
[2:46:22] everything about a situation would say
[2:46:24] that they could would or should under
[2:46:26] society's rules not be benign right and
[2:46:29] then we start to see that there is
[2:46:31] another drive that how do you explain
[2:46:33] that we're here yeah aggression pleasure
[2:46:36] and generativist or generative Drive the
[2:46:39] drive to make things better that's why
[2:46:42] we build more than we destroy we destroy
[2:46:44] a lot right but we build more than we
[2:46:46] destroy otherwise we wouldn't have
[2:46:48] clothes on our backs let alone have the
[2:46:50] the technology to sit here and to be
[2:46:52] able to do this so it's the generative
[2:46:55] drive that that is most realized in the
[2:46:58] healthy person right and the healthy
[2:47:01] person has the strong generative drive
[2:47:04] now as you said there are other factors
[2:47:07] and this is sort of what you were asking
[2:47:08] about they're probably their natural
[2:47:10] levels of aggression or pleasure seeking
[2:47:12] or generativist that differ across
[2:47:14] people right because we're a product of
[2:47:16] you know the complexity of our genetics
[2:47:18] and you know all the complexities of
[2:47:20] Nature and nurture so we're going to get
[2:47:22] to a place where where some of us have
[2:47:25] more some of us have less right the the
[2:47:28] the the conclusion though is for all of
[2:47:30] us the generative Drive being at the
[2:47:33] helm is what what leads us to be to to
[2:47:37] live good lives right to live to the
[2:47:39] things that we aspire to the peace and
[2:47:41] contentment right so we want the
[2:47:43] generative drive to Rule the Day right
[2:47:47] whether a person is studying
[2:47:48] Neuroscience or growing Garden right the
[2:47:50] importance is about being generative
[2:47:53] then then aggression and pleasure can
[2:47:56] subserve the generative drive right and
[2:47:59] then the question you're asking I I
[2:48:00] think which is well what if there's too
[2:48:02] much aggression too little aggression
[2:48:04] right or too much pleasure seeking too
[2:48:06] little pleasure seeking that's when we
[2:48:08] we can see problems right and the
[2:48:11] problems then lead us back to the
[2:48:12] pillars to figure out the problems so
[2:48:15] too much aggression ultimately becomes
[2:48:18] and
[2:48:19] right too much aggression means like I
[2:48:21] want I I want to impose myself on the on
[2:48:24] the world around me more than I can more
[2:48:26] than is reasonable more than I can do
[2:48:29] without impinging upon others right that
[2:48:31] what you end up doing is taking from
[2:48:33] others right too much aggression becomes
[2:48:36] destructive right maybe a person
[2:48:38] destroys tears something down right
[2:48:40] takes from others uh says that the the
[2:48:43] nasty comment when it wasn't necessary
[2:48:45] and now everyone feels bad right but
[2:48:47] there there's that too much aggression
[2:48:49] start it becomes Envy right and envy is
[2:48:54] destructive right the same thing with
[2:48:56] too much pleasure seeking if I say okay
[2:48:58] I want you know I want my fair share of
[2:48:59] pleasure and you know relief of distress
[2:49:01] and all that but if I start if I rely on
[2:49:03] that too much right we now instead of
[2:49:05] aggression eclipsing the generative
[2:49:07] drive now it's pleasure eclipsing the
[2:49:10] generative drive then I want more
[2:49:11] pleasure and more pleasure and more
[2:49:12] pleasure and how long before I want your
[2:49:14] pleasure right so so then it's not
[2:49:17] healthy right what it becomes is envious
[2:49:19] right right it becomes destructive
[2:49:20] because now then I become Covetous of
[2:49:22] your pleasure or if I can't get it but I
[2:49:25] could bring you down then I'll feel
[2:49:27] better about myself that's Envy right so
[2:49:30] too much aggression eclipsing the
[2:49:32] generative drive too much of the of
[2:49:35] pleasure seeking the pleasure Drive
[2:49:37] eclipsing the generative drive and we
[2:49:39] end up in places of envy and envy is
[2:49:43] destructive and now we're in trouble
[2:49:45] I've never thought before about the
[2:49:47] relationship between aggression pleasure
[2:49:49] and envy but as you're describing it I
[2:49:52] comes to mind the movie American Psycho
[2:49:55] where Christian Bale placs this um well
[2:49:59] basically an 80s Yuppy in you know
[2:50:02] working in finance in New York and um
[2:50:04] and for anyone that scen it it's a can
[2:50:06] only be described as a violent parody of
[2:50:09] of 80s yepy culture and it's it's me
[2:50:12] dark comedy as there's going to be yeah
[2:50:13] it's as dark a comedy as it could be and
[2:50:15] and don't let your young children watch
[2:50:16] it because it's very gruesome and has
[2:50:19] like very sexual and but the the the
[2:50:23] aggressive features within the character
[2:50:25] that Bale plays um are immediately
[2:50:28] apparent in the movie like you know
[2:50:30] violent aggression sexual aggression um
[2:50:33] seeking money seeking wealth all the
[2:50:36] time a narcissism too an obsession with
[2:50:39] like everything from his skincare
[2:50:40] routine to uh his eight pack abs and
[2:50:43] like it's it's ridiculous but um but
[2:50:46] also an interesting window into some
[2:50:48] milder forms of those features that
[2:50:49] still exist in many people today right
[2:50:52] um but the Envy component starts to
[2:50:54] reveal itself a little bit later into
[2:50:56] the movie where um the scene I recall is
[2:50:59] one around where someone hands him a
[2:51:00] business card and then you hear the
[2:51:02] narrative in his own mind about how much
[2:51:04] nicer that guy's business card is then
[2:51:06] his and how he hates him so much he ends
[2:51:08] up killing the guy in very violent and
[2:51:11] sadistic fashion that's aggression over
[2:51:13] generative right right and so and the
[2:51:16] whole movie is about um this one uh
[2:51:19] aspect of culture at that time's ability
[2:51:21] to impose their will on EV
[2:51:24] everyone at their whim you know
[2:51:26] basically Bale just does whatever the
[2:51:27] hell he wants at any point goes returns
[2:51:30] videotapes in between and you know and
[2:51:32] there's so much woven into it and uh
[2:51:35] that is relevant and so much that's
[2:51:37] woven into it that's just purely for
[2:51:39] people's kind of sick entertainment um
[2:51:41] uh but that I believe it was Brett Brent
[2:51:44] East Ellis that wrote that and you know
[2:51:46] is tapping into the the aggression
[2:51:48] component pleasure component but the
[2:51:50] Envy component is really what resonates
[2:51:52] as as you come to the end of the movie
[2:51:54] is like there's no satisfying this guy
[2:51:57] he could kill or or sleep with as many
[2:51:58] people as he wants in the movie um and
[2:52:01] he can have as much wealth as he wants
[2:52:02] he can have entire buildings in fact I
[2:52:04] think he's living in an entire building
[2:52:06] at some point he takes over people's
[2:52:07] Apartments after he kills them it's it's
[2:52:09] it's wild and disgusting um but it
[2:52:12] really speaks to the extent to which
[2:52:14] Envy is woven into absolutely aggression
[2:52:17] and pleasure seeking and it's not
[2:52:18] something something that had really sunk
[2:52:20] in for me until you describe it now um
[2:52:23] because I think for most people they
[2:52:25] imagine okay when somebody has X number
[2:52:28] of millions or billions of dollars that
[2:52:31] they'll reach this place of Peace
[2:52:33] contentment and Delight right they'll
[2:52:34] have enough um and in the movie Wall
[2:52:37] Street there's that one scene where
[2:52:39] someone says you know what's your number
[2:52:40] like at what point is it enough and the
[2:52:41] guy says more that says all sorts of
[2:52:43] things about the dopaminergic system of
[2:52:45] reward systems in the brain Etc but I
[2:52:48] think it says is a lot more about Envy
[2:52:51] absolutely and just what in what a a pit
[2:52:53] of despair Envy is for everybody
[2:52:55] involved right right look Envy may not
[2:52:58] be the root of all evil but Envy plus
[2:53:01] natural disasters may
[2:53:03] be so much evil and destruction arises
[2:53:08] from envy and it may be that it's at the
[2:53:10] root of all of it and we so
[2:53:14] underappreciate that right we so
[2:53:15] underappreciate why people are
[2:53:18] destructive right which is why the roots
[2:53:20] aren't always in trauma but but a
[2:53:22] significant uh uh aspect of of where
[2:53:27] Envy arises from can often be trauma
[2:53:30] creating a sense of guilt and shame and
[2:53:32] vulnerability but but wherever a person
[2:53:34] may come by it and it's a larger
[2:53:36] discussion of envy and where it may come
[2:53:38] from is it drives destruction and if the
[2:53:43] aggressive Drive is greater than the
[2:53:45] generative drive or if the pleasure
[2:53:47] Drive is greater than the the generative
[2:53:49] drive or if both are greater than the
[2:53:51] generative drive it will drive
[2:53:54] destruction and that destruction the
[2:53:57] vast majority of times if you look deep
[2:53:59] enough you find at its roots envy that
[2:54:02] Envy may arise from guilt and shame
[2:54:04] within the person but as soon as it
[2:54:05] becomes about another right I feel guilt
[2:54:08] and shame and inadequacy inside of me
[2:54:10] but then I feel Envy of those around me
[2:54:13] it drives the vast majority of
[2:54:15] Destruction do you think that's what's
[2:54:17] happening when we see these um sadly um
[2:54:21] ever more frequent examples of um active
[2:54:24] Shooters and school shootings things of
[2:54:26] that sort yes there other there are
[2:54:28] other people who have life right and
[2:54:31] that person doesn't feel that they do so
[2:54:34] they want to go and take it away from
[2:54:36] them and that's why as long as we have
[2:54:39] human tribulation and a lot of guns this
[2:54:42] it's going to happen it's it's a it's a
[2:54:44] logical conclusion of enough people
[2:54:47] being in places of Despair and how Envy
[2:54:50] can be cultivated within us and then
[2:54:52] ultimately how it blinds people it
[2:54:55] creates such a desire for Destruction
[2:54:58] that then people will take life away
[2:55:00] from others and often people sometimes
[2:55:03] take their own life which which I think
[2:55:05] really brings to the Forefront like that
[2:55:07] that that person doesn't feel that they
[2:55:08] have a life certainly not a life worth
[2:55:10] preserving so they're then going to take
[2:55:13] the lives of others and I think we're
[2:55:16] seeing that is as Stark
[2:55:20] um a portrait of where Envy can lead I
[2:55:25] think as we can find on a one person
[2:55:27] basis we we can go we can look at Wars
[2:55:28] and their destruction on a societal
[2:55:30] basis but I think that's that's the
[2:55:32] ultimate in understanding where and we
[2:55:35] can drive a
[2:55:37] person what about the other end of the
[2:55:39] spectrum when aggression and pleasure
[2:55:42] seeking are too low the other side of
[2:55:46] the spectrum is demoralization
[2:55:49] right so just imagine very very low
[2:55:51] aggression so low self- assertion low
[2:55:54] agency like the there comes a place
[2:55:57] where that the person is not then
[2:56:00] imposing themselves or believing that
[2:56:02] they can in in in much of any way on the
[2:56:05] outside world and that creates a sense
[2:56:07] of isolation understandably right a
[2:56:09] sense of powerlessness and vulnerability
[2:56:11] and isolation and that then becomes
[2:56:14] demoralizing which is not the same as
[2:56:16] depression I mean you know we know
[2:56:17] depression is it is there's a
[2:56:20] neurochemical imbalance right whether
[2:56:22] that imbalance came purely biologically
[2:56:24] or or came psychologically or because of
[2:56:26] external events there's a neurochemical
[2:56:28] imbalance you know here we're not
[2:56:30] talking about an illness State as
[2:56:33] identified by modern Psychiatry there's
[2:56:35] not a number in the in the book of
[2:56:37] diagnoses that goes along with with
[2:56:39] being demoralized right but why because
[2:56:42] it's a state that humans can be in and
[2:56:45] too low of an aggressive drive right and
[2:56:47] all the things that come of that it's
[2:56:49] isolating and it's demoralizing the same
[2:56:52] with too low of a of a pleasure drive so
[2:56:55] an example that maybe relatable is um to
[2:56:59] some people is you know knowing someone
[2:57:02] who who has had a couple of really bad
[2:57:03] breakups and and then says I'm not you
[2:57:05] know what I'm done with that there's no
[2:57:06] more Romance I'm going to be single
[2:57:08] right and and you know like that person
[2:57:10] has a drive in them like you know
[2:57:11] they're an interconnected person like
[2:57:13] they they want romance they these are
[2:57:14] things that are important to them but
[2:57:16] they they make a decision I'm I'm not
[2:57:18] have that in my in my life what what
[2:57:20] would be called in some psychodynamic
[2:57:22] sense is inviting death into life a
[2:57:24] little bit of death by by swearing off
[2:57:26] something that that the person has a
[2:57:28] drive towards right the pleasure Drive
[2:57:30] of companionship and of romance right
[2:57:33] that that then becomes demoralizing as
[2:57:36] well so sure those things demoralization
[2:57:38] can predispose to depression but
[2:57:40] demoralization is a thing in and of
[2:57:42] itself where then there's a sense of
[2:57:44] hopelessness there's a sense of you know
[2:57:47] the the goodness then is in accessible
[2:57:49] anymore and that's the other side of
[2:57:51] Envy can low levels of aggression and
[2:57:55] the resulting
[2:57:57] demoralization be coupled with high
[2:57:59] levels of pleasure seeking so I'm
[2:58:02] thinking about the person that um you
[2:58:04] know is like very overweight clearly um
[2:58:07] headed for health issues if they don't
[2:58:09] already have them and you know perhaps
[2:58:13] would like to remove that weight would
[2:58:15] like to feel more vigorous doesn't want
[2:58:18] type two diabetes and an early death but
[2:58:21] at some level they've given up because
[2:58:23] the the pleasure of eating is something
[2:58:25] they really enjoy they they really love
[2:58:27] it and yet it has a component to it in
[2:58:30] their life where they either self sooe
[2:58:33] with it or they're just trying to hit
[2:58:34] Baseline levels of satisfaction with it
[2:58:37] and and um they allow themselves to
[2:58:41] effectively be sedentary and and then
[2:58:43] the other sorts of trouble start to show
[2:58:45] up you know sleep apnea from carrying
[2:58:47] excessive weight and then feeling tired
[2:58:49] during the day and then who can exercise
[2:58:50] when they're too tired when you got to
[2:58:52] work and maintain other life demands and
[2:58:54] you can kind of see where this could
[2:58:56] rise and and makes perfect sense um you
[2:58:59] can also see where um if there were just
[2:59:02] a little bit more aggression it could
[2:59:04] all be turned around but they don't have
[2:59:05] it so is the scenario describ something
[2:59:08] that you've seen clinically I certainly
[2:59:09] observe it in my non-clinical stance out
[2:59:12] there in the world a lot right well I
[2:59:14] think the the most important thing
[2:59:16] you're pointing out is that
[2:59:19] aggression and pleasure on the high end
[2:59:22] right we we know can Trump the
[2:59:24] generative drive right but that this can
[2:59:26] also happen on the low end right so
[2:59:28] you're describing a situation this it's
[2:59:30] a great example right because it's not
[2:59:31] uncommon in the world around us so the
[2:59:34] aggression meaning the fuel to put
[2:59:36] oneself out there in the world right to
[2:59:38] utilize the sense of agency right so
[2:59:40] this is going to be a person who's low
[2:59:42] agency right the aggressive drive has
[2:59:45] has little fuel then to give the sense
[2:59:47] of agency its further squelch by neg by
[2:59:50] you know negative sense of self and
[2:59:52] negative selft talk now you find where
[2:59:54] the the aggressive Drive is is too low
[2:59:58] and too low can also Trump the
[3:00:00] generative drive right because then that
[3:00:02] person can't take care of themselves a
[3:00:03] generative drive would say there's a lot
[3:00:05] of Life to Live and there can be great
[3:00:07] things in life and take better care of
[3:00:08] yourself and by the way they're like
[3:00:10] people that you love and people that
[3:00:11] love you or or if not you know there's
[3:00:13] an animal or a garden you love right so
[3:00:15] so the generative Drive is saying that
[3:00:18] right but it's not winning the day
[3:00:20] because the the aggression or you know
[3:00:22] aggression is one word we could put to
[3:00:24] that drive you could call it an
[3:00:25] assertion drive you know we call it an
[3:00:27] agency drive but that's you know we're
[3:00:29] using agency in a different way but that
[3:00:31] thing is too low so it wins out over the
[3:00:34] generative drive and then in the example
[3:00:36] you gave it's not surprising that the
[3:00:39] pleasure Drive goes the other way maybe
[3:00:41] there's a predisposition to that
[3:00:43] genetically maybe it's just reinforced
[3:00:45] because a person in that place could say
[3:00:48] well think of what what this the the
[3:00:50] self-conception would be right I'm in
[3:00:53] this terrible place um it you know means
[3:00:55] I'm a terrible person I can't make
[3:00:57] myself better or I'm not good enough to
[3:00:59] get better no one cares about me I can't
[3:01:01] make anything right so so therefore like
[3:01:04] I don't I don't matter there's no reason
[3:01:06] to take care of myself so why would I
[3:01:08] not do if I eat that one thing that I
[3:01:10] enjoy and it gives me pleasure even it
[3:01:13] gives me pleasure for 2 minutes then
[3:01:14] I'll eat another one like in a sense so
[3:01:16] what well cuz I'm I don't feel that I'm
[3:01:18] worth preserving or that I can preserve
[3:01:20] myself right there's a nihilism to it
[3:01:22] that then kind of makes it make sense to
[3:01:25] overindulge the pleasure Drive whether
[3:01:26] it's a whether it's biologically
[3:01:28] predisposed or one is just arriving
[3:01:30] there but the the reason all that is bad
[3:01:34] is because the aggressive Drive is too
[3:01:36] low and in fact it's low enough that
[3:01:38] it's outweighing the generative drive
[3:01:40] then the pleasure Drive is going to come
[3:01:41] into you know one place or another if
[3:01:43] it's also really low the person does not
[3:01:45] much of anything and wastes away which
[3:01:47] tragically happens a lot in our society
[3:01:49] right or if the pleasure Drive is high
[3:01:52] maybe that person overindulges in things
[3:01:54] it provide short-term gratification and
[3:01:56] then that causes a different set of
[3:01:57] problems but but what's deterministic
[3:02:00] there is whether whether aggression or
[3:02:03] assertion again we could put different
[3:02:04] words to that drive but what we've been
[3:02:06] calling the aggressive drive and the
[3:02:08] pleasure Drive are they is one or the
[3:02:11] other or both high enough to Trump the
[3:02:14] generative drive or low enough to Trump
[3:02:16] the generative drive and and I think all
[3:02:19] problems that we see like everything
[3:02:21] fits into this model because it honors
[3:02:24] what we know right it honors what we
[3:02:26] know about human behavior and insights
[3:02:27] into human behavior over hundreds of
[3:02:29] years right over thousands of years
[3:02:31] right the wisdom that re brings forward
[3:02:33] and it it honors the science and that's
[3:02:35] why it fits together because I think it
[3:02:38] honors who we are as what our species is
[3:02:41] what we are um and you know what it's
[3:02:45] like what life is like as as we try and
[3:02:48] engage with
[3:02:49] it yeah I've seen cases of demoralized
[3:02:54] people where uh they
[3:02:57] simply you know disappear they they hide
[3:03:01] they isolate they slow down they take
[3:03:03] terrible care of their health and um you
[3:03:05] know sadly I've known uh several people
[3:03:08] like this in my lifetime uh one of whom
[3:03:10] killed himself the the other who um just
[3:03:13] has an immense number of health problems
[3:03:15] related to overeating and um inactivity
[3:03:18] and and knows it and talks about it and
[3:03:20] and but nothing seems to change despite
[3:03:22] multiple interventions from a caring
[3:03:24] standpoint from Friends Etc I've also
[3:03:27] seen examples of people who are
[3:03:29] demoralized who um seem to band with
[3:03:32] other demoralized people sort of um try
[3:03:35] to recalibrate the standard that they
[3:03:37] feel um oppresses them you know that
[3:03:40] they and this isn't necessarily just in
[3:03:42] the realm of of physical fitness this is
[3:03:44] also in the realm of like School demands
[3:03:46] I I went to a very demanding High School
[3:03:49] as I've talked about before on a couple
[3:03:50] of podcasts I barely finished high
[3:03:52] school I was not an attentive student I
[3:03:54] was my um aggressive and pleasure drives
[3:03:57] went into non-academic Endeavors and I
[3:04:00] regret that you know I I had so much
[3:04:02] making up of of of learning to do by the
[3:04:05] time I you know fortunately got to
[3:04:06] college uh eventually caught up but um
[3:04:11] my experience of high school was that
[3:04:13] there were these you know kids scoring
[3:04:15] perfectly on the SAT and the early
[3:04:17] admission to Harvard and early admission
[3:04:18] to Yale and all these places and then
[3:04:21] there was you know a distribution in the
[3:04:22] middle and then there was a collection
[3:04:24] of of kids who were not doing well knew
[3:04:28] they weren't doing well and kind of
[3:04:30] banded together around the idea of not
[3:04:32] doing well I I I didn't consider myself
[3:04:35] part of that group because I I frankly
[3:04:37] wasn't there that often and and um I was
[3:04:40] focused on other things as I mentioned
[3:04:41] but but what came of that group was
[3:04:45] actually quite tragic not just for them
[3:04:47] but for a l lot of other people they uh
[3:04:50] eventually engaged it it wasn't a school
[3:04:52] shooting type scenario but they
[3:04:53] eventually you know set off explosives
[3:04:56] in the on the school campus this was
[3:04:58] after they had graduated um I don't know
[3:05:00] where they are nowadays but things did
[3:05:02] not go well for them and they um exerted
[3:05:05] a lot of uh
[3:05:07] destruction to other people around them
[3:05:10] but before they did that there was this
[3:05:12] kind of banding together around their
[3:05:14] the fact that they didn't fit in that
[3:05:16] they and they weren't bullied as I
[3:05:17] recall that I could be wrong about this
[3:05:20] but I've seen this in other forms too
[3:05:22] like you know if you can't meet the
[3:05:24] standard band up with other people and
[3:05:27] change the standard and then you don't
[3:05:29] feel as demoralized perhaps um I can
[3:05:33] understand I can rationalize why this
[3:05:34] would be a reasonable approach but
[3:05:38] um I'm seeing this more and more um I'm
[3:05:42] also seeing by the way you know the
[3:05:44] other end of the spectrum people are
[3:05:45] overly aggressive and pleasure seeking
[3:05:47] and and things of that sort but but for
[3:05:48] the for the moment I'd like um your
[3:05:51] thoughts on you know how demoralization
[3:05:54] can split off into different Expressions
[3:05:57] depending on how um people feel and who
[3:05:59] else they're relating to yeah yeah well
[3:06:03] I think the place I would start is to
[3:06:05] say our society rushes headlong forward
[3:06:08] in a way that causes our society to
[3:06:11] trample people who are vulnerable and
[3:06:13] vulnerable people are demoralized people
[3:06:15] demoralized people are vulnerable people
[3:06:18] people and our society often tramples
[3:06:20] them and then they're not here with us
[3:06:21] any longer and that is tragic but at
[3:06:25] times they don't get trampled they get
[3:06:27] cast aside right they they they're
[3:06:28] injured right and cast aside and from
[3:06:32] that place tragic things happen right
[3:06:35] people then stay isolated you know I I
[3:06:37] think it's a tragedy that we don't all
[3:06:39] band together and go door Todo right to
[3:06:42] like seek people who who aren't coming
[3:06:44] out of doors right you know in the sense
[3:06:46] of like we let people be so so isolated
[3:06:49] and and often times that's that's the
[3:06:51] tragic end of someone's story right um
[3:06:55] but sometimes people do engage right
[3:06:58] they're demoralized but they can engage
[3:07:02] in in ways that involve an an
[3:07:04] affiliative defense so sometimes people
[3:07:05] who are demoralized can affiliate they
[3:07:08] can band together in in ways as I think
[3:07:11] you were alluding to that can that can
[3:07:13] make things better so if people are
[3:07:15] demoralized because say they're uh
[3:07:18] a group in society that that is
[3:07:20] chronically very mistreated right then
[3:07:23] it can be very powerful to band together
[3:07:25] both because there's what's called an
[3:07:26] affiliative defense that if I feel bad
[3:07:28] about myself about something and I'm
[3:07:30] alone it's highly likely I'm going to
[3:07:32] continue feeling bad about myself about
[3:07:34] that thing right but if you feel bad
[3:07:36] about yourself about the same thing and
[3:07:37] then we're together right we help each
[3:07:40] other feel better we don't feel so
[3:07:41] lonely we don't alone we don't feel so
[3:07:43] isolated we don't feel so ashamed right
[3:07:45] so an affiliative defense can help
[3:07:48] people to to say wait a second like I'm
[3:07:50] not there's nothing wrong with me and
[3:07:51] I'm not gonna take this line down or
[3:07:53] something right and then and to make
[3:07:55] assertions that create better rights in
[3:07:57] the world around us so so like very good
[3:08:00] things can happen from from affiliation
[3:08:03] in the context of demoralization but
[3:08:06] very bad things can happen too right
[3:08:08] because people can also affiliate around
[3:08:10] things that are very destructive I mean
[3:08:12] if I am hateful of society and I would
[3:08:15] like to be destructive and I'm alone
[3:08:17] okay I could do destructive things alone
[3:08:19] but if I band together with a couple
[3:08:20] other people who feel that way now I'm
[3:08:22] empowered to feel that way right instead
[3:08:24] of maybe I feel that way and or or
[3:08:27] there's racism or Prejudice and I don't
[3:08:28] feel like I I can say that right but
[3:08:30] then when it's permissive right because
[3:08:32] other people are are in the same place
[3:08:36] then people can accentuate the the
[3:08:38] hatred within you know within them so
[3:08:40] affiliation is very very powerful and
[3:08:44] part of society rushing so headlong
[3:08:46] forward and either trampling or marginal
[3:08:48] izing people is that we then don't pay
[3:08:50] attention or not enough attention to
[3:08:53] what happens with the affiliative groups
[3:08:55] right how do you guide people towards
[3:08:57] towards being able to affiliate in ways
[3:08:59] that are productive how do you give them
[3:09:00] routes of being productive right how do
[3:09:02] you try and protect against the ways
[3:09:04] that affiliation can lead to destructive
[3:09:07] Behavior so I think you know a lot of
[3:09:09] this is these are the natural things
[3:09:11] that happen within us but a lot of what
[3:09:13] we're talking about now gets impacted a
[3:09:16] lot by societ and societal standards
[3:09:19] which we of course altogether you know
[3:09:22] determine right and arise from us but
[3:09:25] they they start to sort of transcend
[3:09:27] because it's now people interacting with
[3:09:30] a whole social
[3:09:31] system going back to the other end of
[3:09:33] the
[3:09:34] spectrum excess
[3:09:36] aggression uh in particular uh I was in
[3:09:40] a conversation with somebody recently
[3:09:42] very successful like Beyond most
[3:09:46] people's comprehension of success
[3:09:48] financially successful and um seems to
[3:09:50] just have you know checked off their
[3:09:52] their goals one one box at a time you
[3:09:54] know from from go um but who described
[3:09:58] his um
[3:10:00] underlying psychology and emotional
[3:10:02] state as um one in which much of what he
[3:10:06] does on a day-to-day basis is driven by
[3:10:09] aggression in fact he he uh volunteered
[3:10:12] an anecdote about the fact that um he
[3:10:15] hates early morning meetings on Zoom but
[3:10:17] he shows up to them as sort of a uh like
[3:10:20] an Fu toward somebody that might not
[3:10:22] even be on the meeting right and um and
[3:10:25] so there's a friction point for him that
[3:10:27] allows him to engage in a way that he
[3:10:29] wouldn't otherwise be able to engage and
[3:10:30] he he channels that towards productivity
[3:10:33] and clearly it's worked for him um you
[3:10:37] know I don't know if he's done the sort
[3:10:39] of introspective uh Deep dive I imagine
[3:10:42] no through the structure of self and
[3:10:43] function of self but you know what are
[3:10:46] we to make of of that sort of example I
[3:10:48] mean I I I like the idea that if someone
[3:10:51] has a strong aggressive drive that they
[3:10:54] would Channel it toward good I mean I
[3:10:56] have no reason to think this person is
[3:10:58] doing anything but good in the world for
[3:11:00] themselves and others they're certainly
[3:11:01] not harming anyone at least not to my to
[3:11:04] my
[3:11:05] knowledge but that seems like a rough
[3:11:07] place to live for me it seems like a
[3:11:10] rough place to live and at the same time
[3:11:12] I'll offer a very brief anecdote that
[3:11:13] you know at one point in my career
[3:11:15] namely when I was a postto I was in a
[3:11:17] position by virtue of having left a
[3:11:19] laboratory and the nature of the field
[3:11:21] at the time where the work I wanted to
[3:11:23] do was directly pitted against the work
[3:11:26] of another very powerful laboratory
[3:11:29] except that I was a lone postto working
[3:11:31] in a laboratory essentially on my own on
[3:11:33] this problem and I remember going to my
[3:11:35] postto adviser the late Ben Baris and
[3:11:37] saying you know I think it might just
[3:11:38] move to a different problem because I
[3:11:41] don't really want to go up against this
[3:11:43] Goliath and he said uh you know the this
[3:11:47] is the best you know I can capture Ben's
[3:11:50] voice he said absolutely not like
[3:11:51] there's no way you love this stuff you
[3:11:53] have to do it because you love it and he
[3:11:55] kept telling me how much I love it and
[3:11:56] he reminded me that indeed I did love
[3:11:57] the questions and once I was able to tap
[3:12:00] back into the love for and the Curiosity
[3:12:02] around the questions I was able to push
[3:12:05] aside the the concerns enough that we
[3:12:08] did well um in publishing certain papers
[3:12:11] they did well but those 5 years frankly
[3:12:14] were a lot less pleasureful than they
[3:12:17] could have been
[3:12:18] I think because much of the script in my
[3:12:21] head was that I was in friction with
[3:12:23] this like you know at least in my mind
[3:12:25] this oppressive force it was it was
[3:12:27] purely competitive and I truly believe
[3:12:29] that we can't be at in our most creative
[3:12:31] state when we are competing with someone
[3:12:33] else by definition because then you're
[3:12:34] you're you're creating against a
[3:12:36] standard as opposed to Raw Creation
[3:12:39] right so um in both cases a lot of
[3:12:41] aggressive Drive frankly I I I have some
[3:12:44] of that and I had that um but desire for
[3:12:48] Revenge a a component of friction mixed
[3:12:51] in you know or integrated with this
[3:12:54] aggressive drive like this picture like
[3:12:57] even as I describe it is you know
[3:12:59] causing the release of a little little
[3:13:00] bit of adrenaline it's it's not a
[3:13:02] comfortable State it's not it it can't
[3:13:05] be a state of Happiness right so as you
[3:13:07] said people can do good in the world
[3:13:09] they can do not good in the world like
[3:13:10] we're not making a value judgment about
[3:13:11] what the person is doing because that's
[3:13:13] not what the question is about right
[3:13:15] like how are they feeling how are they
[3:13:17] doing right what's going on inside of
[3:13:18] them right and that can't be happy right
[3:13:21] that can't be happy because if if if
[3:13:24] you're built to be pretty good at
[3:13:26] competition right so you you can size up
[3:13:28] what are the factors you know you can
[3:13:30] strategize right so a person is built to
[3:13:32] be really good at competition then you
[3:13:35] know it sounds pretty good to make
[3:13:37] everything a competition right because
[3:13:39] you have the highest winning percentage
[3:13:41] right and but that's that's good to
[3:13:43] achieve some end right that doesn't have
[3:13:47] any feeling intrinsically associated
[3:13:49] with it right and if all you're doing is
[3:13:52] a series of competitions then what
[3:13:54] you're doing then is winning right and
[3:13:56] like winning is something like you know
[3:13:58] winning is like I won I beat you what
[3:14:00] whatever that is like that that can be
[3:14:02] part of happiness but it doesn't have to
[3:14:04] be right that that's not happiness right
[3:14:06] so so yes that kind of I'm I'm really
[3:14:09] built to compete well and I'm going to
[3:14:11] just see a series of competitions in
[3:14:14] front of me that's for for expedient
[3:14:16] forward prog ress right that's very
[3:14:19] effective but again expedient forward
[3:14:21] progress is is nothing to do with peace
[3:14:24] contentment Delight like it's it's it's
[3:14:27] not you know it doesn't have anything to
[3:14:28] do with that nor does have anything to
[3:14:30] do with doing good or bad right and I
[3:14:33] think the example you gave in your own
[3:14:35] in your career is like it's such a good
[3:14:37] example right because you know if you
[3:14:39] think about it when the way that you
[3:14:41] were sort of framing it inside is like
[3:14:43] there's a question I'm asking there's a
[3:14:46] question they're asking right and
[3:14:48] there's a competition right again it has
[3:14:51] to be two two to compete right so so
[3:14:54] there's almost an automaticity right
[3:14:57] that like they're studying the same
[3:14:58] thing maybe you know they feel
[3:15:00] competitive or certain people there too
[3:15:02] they were were in our definitely
[3:15:04] competitive they know who they are
[3:15:05] they're extremely compe and very
[3:15:07] successful right okay so then so then
[3:15:10] you okay I'm in a competition now again
[3:15:12] but you never decided to be in a
[3:15:14] competition right but but automatically
[3:15:17] I mean it's interesting right to
[3:15:18] understand you're acting as if you're in
[3:15:20] a competition you go I don't want this
[3:15:21] competition right because like they're
[3:15:23] bigger than me it's going to be
[3:15:24] unpleasant it's going to take you away
[3:15:25] from really thinking about what you want
[3:15:26] to do right it's going to make it harder
[3:15:29] to do a good to do the job you want to
[3:15:30] do right because now you're embroiled in
[3:15:33] you know something that's you know that
[3:15:35] has aggression behind it right so so you
[3:15:38] choose no I don't I I choose not to do
[3:15:41] that right and then Ben Baris reframes
[3:15:44] it to the truth and says well this this
[3:15:46] isn't this is not a compet I because
[3:15:48] you're not choosing to compete right
[3:15:51] because Ben pointed out what was
[3:15:52] important to you was the questions right
[3:15:55] so it's like almost as if Ben reminded
[3:15:57] you no no no no this is not through the
[3:15:58] aggressive Drive look at it through the
[3:16:00] generative drive that's what wins out in
[3:16:02] you right and then you go and apply
[3:16:04] yourself to it yeah and bless him for
[3:16:08] doing it because uh from that point
[3:16:10] forward I I've made it my um firm
[3:16:13] mission to always do things from a place
[3:16:16] of what I always think about as Delight
[3:16:19] you know curiosity Delight that the
[3:16:21] things that give me energy and that give
[3:16:22] me more energy from doing them um it
[3:16:25] wasn't a coincidence I believe that in
[3:16:27] those five years when I was operating
[3:16:29] from a mix of generative drive and the
[3:16:32] the competition would then resurface and
[3:16:34] you know I I couldn't hold hold it
[3:16:36] constant that um I was absolutely
[3:16:39] exhausted by the end of that phase I
[3:16:42] just in a way that um sucked a lot of
[3:16:45] the pleasure out of it I still drive
[3:16:47] some pleasure but then as I mentioned
[3:16:49] fortunately I was able to U pivot back
[3:16:52] to doing things out of love you know and
[3:16:55] and and getting back to uh peace
[3:16:57] contentment and especially Delight right
[3:16:59] you know right and I absolutely make a
[3:17:02] value judgment about that right that
[3:17:04] what you did is better right so what if
[3:17:08] you did what if you were different so
[3:17:10] think about if we talk about it through
[3:17:11] this accurate lens what if you were
[3:17:13] different at that time and the
[3:17:16] aggressive Drive in you was greater than
[3:17:18] the generative driving you right which
[3:17:20] would be an unhealthy state to be in but
[3:17:22] let's say you were in that unhealthy
[3:17:24] State then you probably would have still
[3:17:26] done what you did but you would have
[3:17:28] done it through the lens of aggression
[3:17:29] like I'm going to get them right now
[3:17:30] you're competitive with them there's
[3:17:32] there's anger in you there's you know
[3:17:34] there there's aggression right that
[3:17:35] you're you're enacting in fantasy as
[3:17:37] you're you know you're thinking about
[3:17:39] them and how you're going to win like
[3:17:40] all sorts of things go on inside of us
[3:17:42] and I would say there's no way on Earth
[3:17:45] you could have done the science as well
[3:17:46] as you did right it couldn't be because
[3:17:49] all that stuff is distracting right it's
[3:17:52] you know that kind of negative affect
[3:17:54] pulls for energy and time from you and
[3:17:57] also what seeds would you have planted
[3:17:59] in the the microcosm that you operating
[3:18:02] right more more competition right more
[3:18:04] competitiveness more Badness right so
[3:18:07] let's look at what you did do right
[3:18:09] because you're healthy or this
[3:18:11] particular question about this
[3:18:12] particular thing we know for sure
[3:18:14] because your generative Drive eclipses
[3:18:16] the aggressive drive then you set
[3:18:19] yourself to the work in a way that's
[3:18:21] going to be more effective right your
[3:18:22] brain isn't clouded you're not wasting
[3:18:24] energy you know plotting some revenge or
[3:18:26] plotting what you're going to do if they
[3:18:28] come take something from your lab I mean
[3:18:29] whatever it is you know like you're not
[3:18:32] living in any of that so you're going to
[3:18:33] do a better job at what you're what's so
[3:18:35] important to you to do and what seeds
[3:18:37] are you sewing then right you're sewing
[3:18:40] seeds of collaboration right and even
[3:18:43] then if someone could say well what does
[3:18:45] even that matter right say no it does
[3:18:47] matter because what you're doing then we
[3:18:49] just follow forward the math of it right
[3:18:51] is is contributing to understanding
[3:18:53] that's contributing to human health
[3:18:55] right and the better understanding we
[3:18:57] have of human health the more people
[3:18:58] stay alive and the more people stay
[3:19:00] healthy which could mean any one of us
[3:19:02] just like any one of us could be the
[3:19:04] vulnerable person that Society tramples
[3:19:06] or casts aside we all have it in us to
[3:19:08] be that or have been that at stages of
[3:19:09] our lives right we also all have it in
[3:19:12] us to be the opposite of that right we
[3:19:15] have it in us to be
[3:19:17] generative we have it in us to make good
[3:19:19] we have it in us to contribute to health
[3:19:22] to survival and that I place a value
[3:19:25] judgment upon it's why doing good is
[3:19:28] better than doing bad why creating is
[3:19:30] better than destroying and why
[3:19:32] ultimately it's the generative drive
[3:19:34] that has to Trump the other drives and
[3:19:36] when it does we're happy we're healthy
[3:19:39] we make the world a better place we Ally
[3:19:41] with and are suffused with the Gratitude
[3:19:44] and agency in us are fully active and
[3:19:47] we're suffused with peace contentment
[3:19:49] Delight as you said that's the place to
[3:19:52] be from that place we get this thing
[3:19:55] that we want and we help to make the
[3:19:57] world a better place which helps us to
[3:19:59] keep the thing we
[3:20:01] want it sounds so simple because as you
[3:20:04] pointed out the manifestations of
[3:20:09] looking at the right things and doing
[3:20:10] the right things are so simple yes right
[3:20:14] it's it's a list really and again we
[3:20:16] have a PDF that includes this list and
[3:20:18] and the the structure of of the pillars
[3:20:21] and how they flow up to this list but
[3:20:23] ultimately it's peace contentment and
[3:20:25] Delight you know underg guarded by
[3:20:28] agency and gratitude as active terms I
[3:20:30] mean very simple at some level um and
[3:20:34] yet for many people including myself at
[3:20:36] certain times in life the the um excess
[3:20:40] or or lack of aggressive drive or excess
[3:20:43] or lack of pleasure Drive can interfere
[3:20:46] with people's ability to access these
[3:20:48] these simple but um incredibly powerful
[3:20:51] um being States right because it's
[3:20:54] nature and nurture right so you might be
[3:20:57] built with a a greater or lesser natural
[3:21:00] amount of one drive than I am right but
[3:21:02] then we've had life experience that
[3:21:04] creates a Delta around that right so so
[3:21:07] you say okay we're built with different
[3:21:08] amounts of all these drives yes yes we
[3:21:11] are right but we also have control right
[3:21:14] through our decisions through how we
[3:21:15] handle Our Lives to modulate them right
[3:21:18] so that makes sense because the thought
[3:21:19] could be well the drive is what the
[3:21:21] drive is and it varies across people no
[3:21:23] there's a range the drive is in and that
[3:21:25] range can be very broad people can do
[3:21:27] all sorts of things to cultivate to
[3:21:30] cultivate the better we all can right so
[3:21:32] if we look at it as an unlimited upside
[3:21:34] right then what we what we see is I want
[3:21:36] to know where they at in me now right
[3:21:38] what's going on inside of me what are
[3:21:39] all those other factors right because I
[3:21:41] want to cultivate the good I want to
[3:21:43] cultivate that generative drive and I
[3:21:45] want to make sure the aggression and the
[3:21:47] pleasure aren't out of balance one way
[3:21:48] or another like we can actively look at
[3:21:50] that and manage it and I think that's
[3:21:54] like so what we're striving for because
[3:21:55] there's nothing here that we don't have
[3:21:58] some control over right and the higher
[3:22:01] we get up right the simpler it gets the
[3:22:03] more we have control over it and for
[3:22:06] people who feel like the the ideals that
[3:22:09] we're providing a road map toward are
[3:22:11] not accessible for whatever reason maybe
[3:22:13] they're feeling a little bit or a lot
[3:22:15] demoralized uh
[3:22:17] overly aggressive and not ending up
[3:22:19] where they want to go or ending up where
[3:22:20] they want to go and not experiencing
[3:22:22] deep satisfaction peace contentment and
[3:22:25] Delight where should they look in this
[3:22:28] framework that includes these pillars at
[3:22:31] the Deep levels of structure of self
[3:22:32] function of self that you know um give
[3:22:35] rise to empowerment humility agenty
[3:22:38] gratitude peace contentment Delight you
[3:22:40] know if someone should find themselves
[3:22:42] unmotivated or or stuck you know
[3:22:46] metaphorically speaking staring out the
[3:22:47] window into the garden that could be and
[3:22:49] that they want so very much but that
[3:22:50] they're not creating again that should
[3:22:52] translate to whatever domain of life
[3:22:54] you're you're seeking or not even in
[3:22:55] touch with what you really want you know
[3:22:58] infinitely confused about what to do in
[3:23:00] relationship school work life you know
[3:23:04] and and thinking about all the
[3:23:05] oppressive forces in the world like the
[3:23:08] political Chasm and the you know
[3:23:10] pandemics and lockdowns and like and all
[3:23:13] the stuff and all the the things that
[3:23:14] are weighing down on us
[3:23:18] what should that person in other words
[3:23:20] what should we all do at that moment you
[3:23:21] know stop and
[3:23:24] what each pillar has five cupboards look
[3:23:27] in all five and follow the clues that
[3:23:30] you find
[3:23:31] there that's the answer so go back to
[3:23:35] structure of self function of self ask
[3:23:37] questions about and engage in practices
[3:23:40] that bring about more self-awareness
[3:23:43] practices that um draw our attention to
[3:23:46] what's Salient for for us ask ourselves
[3:23:48] you know what am I thinking about
[3:23:49] internally what is my internal script
[3:23:52] what what am I focusing on externally
[3:23:54] you know am I spending all day on
[3:23:55] Twitter looking at accounts that I know
[3:23:57] I hate because it activates something in
[3:23:59] me etc etc I might have revealed
[3:24:01] something about myself that I'm just
[3:24:02] kidding that's not my my behavior but I
[3:24:04] see a lot of other people doing it what
[3:24:06] are my behavioral choices you know um
[3:24:08] what could bring about more hopefulness
[3:24:11] and and strivings I have that right
[3:24:13] right and there's right and there's so
[3:24:14] much of this that say one could do on
[3:24:16] one's own right because we can think
[3:24:18] about ourselves and we can learn things
[3:24:19] if we say well I don't really know that
[3:24:21] much about defense mechanisms okay like
[3:24:24] we could read about it right like we can
[3:24:26] do a lot of this on our own and we can
[3:24:28] get so much from talking to other people
[3:24:31] you know people in our Lives who are
[3:24:33] close to us who love us right we can
[3:24:35] talk with them about what's going on
[3:24:37] inside of us right and that is such an
[3:24:39] amazing mechanism of learning and
[3:24:42] they're also Professional Resources I
[3:24:43] mean like the good therapy should
[3:24:45] Encompass like this should be what it's
[3:24:47] doing right it might come out through
[3:24:49] one lens or another lens and you know CU
[3:24:52] every everybody's different and we can
[3:24:53] bring different modalities but
[3:24:54] ultimately that's what good therapy is
[3:24:57] doing right it's looking in all 10 of
[3:24:59] those cupboards and it's seeing where is
[3:25:01] the issue let's follow the clues like
[3:25:02] it's a spirited inquiry right whether
[3:25:04] we're doing it on our own or we're doing
[3:25:06] it with other people in our personal
[3:25:08] lives or we're doing it with someone
[3:25:09] professionally it's a spirited inquiry
[3:25:12] to follow the clues because if we follow
[3:25:14] the clues there are answers right and if
[3:25:17] we have the answers then we can bring
[3:25:19] things into better alignment and then
[3:25:21] we're in a better place those pillars
[3:25:22] are more stable and we can build on top
[3:25:25] of them what we want to build on top of
[3:25:27] them and the drives come better into
[3:25:28] line that that we can do that and it can
[3:25:31] be an iterative process of you know if
[3:25:34] if we we attain some better state of
[3:25:35] mind and like life is better and like
[3:25:38] we're happy like this happens to people
[3:25:39] there's a lot of contentment and peace
[3:25:41] and if things are going well and now
[3:25:43] something isn't as much go back and look
[3:25:46] again right it's it's a process we can
[3:25:48] use over and over because it works
[3:25:51] because it fits with the truths and the
[3:25:54] reality is as we have understood learned
[3:25:58] them you know our education the you know
[3:26:00] this a learning about humans that across
[3:26:02] hundreds of years tells us
[3:26:05] this it makes very good sense to me in
[3:26:08] the way that you have mapped it out for
[3:26:10] us um so much sense in fact that um I'm
[3:26:14] just struck by how Divergent it is from
[3:26:18] what I think most people think of when
[3:26:20] they think of therapy or the some of the
[3:26:22] risks of going to a
[3:26:24] psychiatrist um which I think it's only
[3:26:27] fair to consider in particular the way
[3:26:29] that um at least from my outside
[3:26:33] non-clinical understanding um these
[3:26:35] sorts of situations of high levels of
[3:26:37] demoralization or excessive aggression
[3:26:39] or just people not being in the place or
[3:26:41] being able to exert their their um their
[3:26:45] actions in the world the way they want
[3:26:46] want or not get the results they want is
[3:26:48] they'll start asking questions like um
[3:26:51] you know maybe I have a chemical
[3:26:52] imbalance or or maybe they'll go to a
[3:26:55] clinician maybe a cognitive behavioral
[3:26:56] therapist or um or psychiatrist and more
[3:27:01] often than not it seems they'll get you
[3:27:03] know prescription for X number of
[3:27:04] milligrams of some serotonergic Agonist
[3:27:08] or uh dopaminergic Agonist and of course
[3:27:11] as a neurobiologist I I you know I
[3:27:13] applaud the exploration of underlying
[3:27:16] brain organisms and the involvement of
[3:27:18] neuromodulators like dopamine and
[3:27:19] serotonin but what you're describing
[3:27:21] today is is very different I I think
[3:27:24] then um what most people are can expect
[3:27:29] if they go to the typical psychiatrist
[3:27:32] or typical uh psychologist which is part
[3:27:34] of the reason we're having this
[3:27:35] conversation but um I'd love your
[3:27:37] thoughts on that um and I don't want to
[3:27:40] make this about me uh I only offer this
[3:27:42] anecdote as um a way to round out a
[3:27:45] little bit of the earlier discussion uh
[3:27:47] I'll I've never shared this publicly but
[3:27:49] when I was a postto and going through
[3:27:50] that very hard phase of comp competition
[3:27:52] that I didn't want and having a hard
[3:27:54] time staying in touch with that and
[3:27:55] there were some other developmental
[3:27:57] things starting to resurface just by
[3:27:58] virtue of moving back to the town I grew
[3:28:00] up in ETC there I recall getting to the
[3:28:03] stairway of the building I was working
[3:28:05] in at the time which is the same one
[3:28:07] where my laboratory exists now actually
[3:28:09] and realizing I I couldn't go up the
[3:28:11] stairway I've always been reasonably fit
[3:28:14] um and just being so EX exhausted and
[3:28:17] then driving home that day on 280 and
[3:28:20] thinking you know like none of this
[3:28:22] matters like what am I doing like none
[3:28:25] of it matters I could have been
[3:28:26] exhausted I don't know what it was but
[3:28:28] what that ultimately resulted in was me
[3:28:30] talking to a psychiatrist who gave me a
[3:28:32] low dose of a of a um of a serotonergic
[3:28:37] anti-depressant I took that low dose of
[3:28:39] serotonergic anti-depressant I don't
[3:28:41] recall which one it was maybe it was sat
[3:28:43] talopram would that make sense and um
[3:28:45] spent that evening staring at my plate
[3:28:47] of Thai noodles for about two hours it
[3:28:50] hit me really hard and and I hated that
[3:28:52] feeling and then just stopped taking the
[3:28:54] drug um now I'm not this is no knock on
[3:28:57] satal pram or the use of serotonergic
[3:28:59] agents in the proper context they've
[3:29:00] saved lives so the the problematic too
[3:29:03] but I just you know that wasn't the
[3:29:05] route that eventually got me out of it
[3:29:08] it was it was mainly talk therapy and
[3:29:10] and self-care um but uh I just offer
[3:29:13] that because I you know I even as a
[3:29:15] neurobiologist I perhaps especially as a
[3:29:18] neurobiologist I thought okay here's the
[3:29:20] solution right it's going to shift some
[3:29:22] internal modulatory system and I'm going
[3:29:24] to feel okay about the situation I'm in
[3:29:26] and thank goodness it didn't work even
[3:29:28] for a short while because um the while I
[3:29:32] didn't do all the things that you're
[3:29:34] describing here of exploring the
[3:29:35] function of self because no one has ever
[3:29:37] laid this out for me I um I took the
[3:29:39] route of of talk therapy which I I find
[3:29:42] immensely beneficial um takes time but
[3:29:45] immensely beneficial
[3:29:47] um so what are your thoughts on the
[3:29:49] current strategies for
[3:29:51] diagnosis where those succeed where they
[3:29:53] fall short and and the role of
[3:29:56] medication in navigating this you know
[3:29:59] simple and yet complex landscape right
[3:30:02] we are so dramatically over reductionist
[3:30:06] you know it's almost to the point of
[3:30:09] unbelievable right I mean think about
[3:30:12] getting a medicine getting some say
[3:30:14] calop
[3:30:15] pram because of what happened right it
[3:30:19] can't possibly work right now maybe a
[3:30:22] judiciously chosen medicine could
[3:30:24] provide a little more distress tolerance
[3:30:26] and you could sort of think about it
[3:30:28] more and you could find your way through
[3:30:29] it but clearly it was an issue of self
[3:30:32] right like you're in a situation that
[3:30:33] was high stress and are you going to
[3:30:35] have to have this competition or not is
[3:30:36] it going to be good for you and you know
[3:30:38] you don't want that but can you avoid it
[3:30:40] like there's something going on that
[3:30:42] makes you not be able to walk up those
[3:30:43] stairs right so so again I'm not
[3:30:46] criticizing got with the person what
[3:30:47] kind of conversations you had about it
[3:30:49] with the person but the idea that a pill
[3:30:51] will fix that is like that's insane
[3:30:54] right now medicines can help smooth the
[3:30:56] way so so let's say you you initially
[3:31:00] went and the first time you see someone
[3:31:01] they say okay we have to talk about this
[3:31:02] right like what's going on in your life
[3:31:04] and you know because normally you can
[3:31:05] walk upstairs and go to work right why
[3:31:08] can't you now like we we need to think
[3:31:09] about that we need to talk about that
[3:31:11] let's say you start doing that and
[3:31:12] you're having a lot of trouble with it
[3:31:14] uh or you're just having really high
[3:31:15] levels of anxiety we might say look a
[3:31:17] medicine can kind of take the
[3:31:18] temperature down a little bit you know
[3:31:20] give you a little more distress
[3:31:21] tolerance and then you know we can you
[3:31:24] can think about it better inside of you
[3:31:26] and we can talk about it better but it's
[3:31:27] medicine in the service of understanding
[3:31:30] now sometimes medicines are doing things
[3:31:32] like medicines that can help prevent
[3:31:34] bipolar episodes right like they're
[3:31:36] doing something that is purely
[3:31:37] biological but we use so many medicines
[3:31:41] for things that are not biological
[3:31:42] they're psychological but we we're so
[3:31:45] over reductionist that we could actually
[3:31:47] over reduce the problem that you said
[3:31:49] right like a clear wow that's
[3:31:51] fascinating right like how many times
[3:31:53] have you gone up those stairs and now
[3:31:54] you can't it's so interesting the idea
[3:31:56] of like let's just give you a pill I
[3:31:58] mean it it really makes no sense but if
[3:32:01] we're over reductionist enough you could
[3:32:03] see how that's the logical Endo of an
[3:32:06] illogical process right and I'll give
[3:32:08] you another example and this is really
[3:32:09] it's a true story of uh a woman who
[3:32:13] young woman comes into the emergency
[3:32:14] room and she says she can't sleep and
[3:32:16] you know she looks anxious and she feels
[3:32:18] very very anxious uh you know by her
[3:32:20] description and that's why she can't
[3:32:21] sleep and and she gets a sleeping
[3:32:24] medicine and she goes home and then she
[3:32:27] comes back she comes back a couple days
[3:32:28] later and she's very very anxious and
[3:32:30] she can't sleep and she looks like she
[3:32:32] did before like nothing seems to be
[3:32:34] different and she hasn't gotten any
[3:32:35] sleep at all so the doctor in charge
[3:32:38] gives her a higher dose of the sleeping
[3:32:40] medicine then she goes home and then she
[3:32:44] comes back yet again and
[3:32:46] nothing is any different she's still not
[3:32:48] sleeping she's still anxious and then
[3:32:50] the doctor concludes that she's drug
[3:32:52] seeking because she wants more and more
[3:32:54] of the sleeping medicine
[3:32:57] okay what was actually going on was she
[3:33:01] was getting hurt at home she was
[3:33:04] terrified to go home of course she
[3:33:06] couldn't sleep right like bad things
[3:33:10] were happening right but no one asked
[3:33:12] the question right they thought she
[3:33:14] cannot sleep we'll give sleeping
[3:33:16] medicine right instead of asking why
[3:33:19] right and then she gets home sent home
[3:33:21] and when the medicine doesn't work well
[3:33:23] now there's something wrong with
[3:33:25] her right and if you put that label on
[3:33:28] her now she's drug seeking right then
[3:33:30] she's not going to get any help right so
[3:33:32] I'm not against medicines I mean I I use
[3:33:35] psychopharmacology as part of my
[3:33:37] practice and I think from a from a
[3:33:39] biologically based perspective about
[3:33:41] many things but we have to know what
[3:33:43] something is the answer for and what
[3:33:44] something is not the answer for and in
[3:33:47] the in the overly reductionist world of
[3:33:49] throughput in in Health Care Systems
[3:33:52] people are even being trained these days
[3:33:54] that don't know any different right I'm
[3:33:55] trying to be overly critical of
[3:33:57] practitioners because often
[3:33:58] practitioners are working in impossible
[3:34:00] situations where the goal is through
[3:34:02] throughput and that's more efficient in
[3:34:05] the short term right it's more efficient
[3:34:07] today right but it's of course not good
[3:34:10] in anything but the today term and it's
[3:34:12] interesting because it's never good for
[3:34:13] the person even today it's like never
[3:34:15] good for the people in it right but but
[3:34:18] often these decisions are being made
[3:34:20] based upon business and money and I I
[3:34:22] understand business and money I I'm a
[3:34:24] capitalist I'm interested in these
[3:34:26] things but the way that we have let
[3:34:28] things get the business and money with a
[3:34:31] shortsighted short-term perspective than
[3:34:33] bonds with the over reductionist ways
[3:34:37] that we approach medicine and then we
[3:34:39] have these bizarre things happen and
[3:34:41] these kind of bizarre things end lives
[3:34:44] right it change the courses of lives
[3:34:46] like fortunately you you know you got
[3:34:49] you got what you needed and you figured
[3:34:50] things out but if you hadn't would you
[3:34:53] have the career you have like we don't
[3:34:54] know right or if if someone else hadn't
[3:34:56] realized like let's talk to that woman
[3:34:58] and see what's going on you know would
[3:35:00] would she have survived I mean we don't
[3:35:02] we don't know but the point of that is
[3:35:04] like lots of bad things happen right
[3:35:07] there we're rolling the dice too many
[3:35:08] times with too many people and it
[3:35:10] doesn't have to be that way and the way
[3:35:12] that we're doing it now is not only
[3:35:14] inefficient financi right the thing that
[3:35:17] we seem to be caring about most it it
[3:35:19] leads to bad outcomes and it also makes
[3:35:21] no sense right we're looking at it
[3:35:23] through this sort of bizarre lens then
[3:35:25] we may find within us the strength to
[3:35:28] change that and to change it in a way
[3:35:29] that actually fits the science and fits
[3:35:31] the common sense now I have to imagine
[3:35:33] that both for people who require
[3:35:36] medication in order to cope um in order
[3:35:39] to manage their way through these
[3:35:42] questions about function of self and how
[3:35:44] they are in the world what they're
[3:35:45] paying attention to Etc and for people
[3:35:48] who don't require medication to do this
[3:35:51] exploration that this very same
[3:35:53] exploration is the road map to feeling
[3:35:57] yes agency gratitude peace contentment
[3:36:01] and Delight medicines may have a role so
[3:36:04] if for example we go look at the pillars
[3:36:06] and things are not going so well and and
[3:36:09] you see that whenever that person has a
[3:36:10] bipolar manic episode while things get
[3:36:13] really really damaged and like it's very
[3:36:15] very hard they can't recover from that
[3:36:17] in the ways they want to then we'd say
[3:36:18] well let's we're going to use medicine
[3:36:20] to help this right now of course there
[3:36:22] are other things too use behavioral
[3:36:24] changes for example right but there but
[3:36:26] there's a clear biological role just
[3:36:28] like we use medicine to stop seizures
[3:36:30] right but people also have to make sure
[3:36:32] they're not super sleep deprived there's
[3:36:34] another part to it too we can use
[3:36:35] medicine to prevent bipolar episodes but
[3:36:38] there's another part of self-care
[3:36:39] involved too but it's it's a role of
[3:36:41] medicine right just as if anxiety levels
[3:36:44] aren't coming down too much say for the
[3:36:46] person to get at the trauma right they
[3:36:48] know there's a trauma they've talked
[3:36:50] around it you know for 20 years they
[3:36:51] know it's been impacting them they're
[3:36:53] not sure how it's hard to go there
[3:36:55] they're with a trusted therapist but
[3:36:56] it's still it's hard to put words to it
[3:36:58] and now you know they're maybe having a
[3:37:00] panic attack right you think okay let's
[3:37:02] we can use medicines to take the
[3:37:03] temperature down to to sort of e you
[3:37:05] ease that person's Way Forward so that
[3:37:07] they can understand something right that
[3:37:10] then provides a resolution in that part
[3:37:11] of the pillar and then you know things
[3:37:14] are set in a better place so so so the
[3:37:16] biological aspect you know and
[3:37:19] specifically here we're talking about
[3:37:20] medicines has its place but the idea
[3:37:23] that medicines are a substitute for
[3:37:26] understanding this makes no sense well
[3:37:29] you've provided us an incredible
[3:37:31] framework thank you you know this
[3:37:33] framework really speaks to all of us
[3:37:37] right you know the components that make
[3:37:38] us who we are you know that as you put
[3:37:42] it the structure of the self you know
[3:37:44] everything from the unconscious mind
[3:37:45] conscious mind defense mechanisms
[3:37:46] character structure self and the
[3:37:49] functions of self you know these
[3:37:51] components of self-awareness defense
[3:37:54] mechanisms reaching up from that Iceberg
[3:37:56] under the
[3:37:57] water what we pay attention to our
[3:37:59] behaviors and hopefully our strivings
[3:38:02] and sense of hope and how those two
[3:38:04] pillars flow up into empowerment
[3:38:07] humility agency and gratitude again as
[3:38:10] action terms as active
[3:38:12] terms and eventually to peace
[3:38:14] contentment and Delight in this
[3:38:16] notion of generative drive as well as
[3:38:18] some of the pitfalls and and um
[3:38:21] challenges that can pull down on
[3:38:23] generative drive or Aude generative
[3:38:25] drive and you very clearly pointed us to
[3:38:28] where we should all
[3:38:29] look in terms of understanding ourselves
[3:38:32] better and where we could do better and
[3:38:35] be better in the world because this is a
[3:38:37] series we have the wonderful opportunity
[3:38:39] to um have you tell us even more about
[3:38:42] how this structure plays out both in
[3:38:45] terms of its health healthy expression
[3:38:46] and in terms of its unhealthy expression
[3:38:49] you know in different pathologic
[3:38:51] conditions that you know most of us are
[3:38:53] familiar with at least in name and and
[3:38:55] I'm sure you're going to tell us more
[3:38:56] about you know what the what the real um
[3:38:59] both underpinnings and expressions of
[3:39:01] things like narcissism in you know
[3:39:03] extreme and Mild form um you know
[3:39:06] anxiety in its extreme and Mild forms um
[3:39:09] and and also some of the uh the names
[3:39:12] and diagnosis that we're more familiar
[3:39:13] with hearing uh about such as you know
[3:39:16] bipolar disorder obsessive compulsive
[3:39:18] things of that sort um but that all
[3:39:21] relate back to and and really are nested
[3:39:23] in the this structure and function of
[3:39:25] self and where it can all go so um first
[3:39:28] of all I want to say an thank you really
[3:39:31] an immense thank you for for oh you're
[3:39:33] so welcome for defining the structure
[3:39:35] and making it so clear to to me and to
[3:39:37] everybody else and and as you said it it
[3:39:39] has its complexity there's in fact
[3:39:41] immense complexity down there at the
[3:39:42] bottom but that flows up from complex to
[3:39:46] to very simple ideals and a ro map to
[3:39:48] get there and again the PDF is available
[3:39:50] to people as as a link in the show note
[3:39:53] captions um should they want to see this
[3:39:54] in visual form I also want to thank you
[3:39:57] for assembling the structure not just as
[3:39:59] a tutorial but because at least to my
[3:40:02] knowledge no such structure or summary
[3:40:06] of these structures exists anywhere in
[3:40:08] the world and certainly not in any form
[3:40:10] that the the non-clinician and not you
[3:40:12] know highly trained psychiatrist uh
[3:40:14] could ever access around understand so
[3:40:17] uh this is both an immense resource and
[3:40:19] an immense gift to us all thank you so
[3:40:22] very much you're so welcome and thank
[3:40:24] you for having me here which is a gift
[3:40:26] um to be continued in the next episode
[3:40:29] thank you thank you for joining me for
[3:40:31] this first episode of our series on
[3:40:33] Mental Health with Dr Paul kti and I
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[3:40:37] second episode in this series which is
[3:40:39] going to be about how to improve your
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[3:42:45] [Music]