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Inspiration

Sleep Architecture and Memory: FourStages That Transform Learning

Andrew Huberman
Andrew Huberman
Sep 3, 2026
11 min de lectura

Sleep is not the uniform rest most of us assume it to be. Rather, it is a precisely choreographed cycle of distinct physiological states—each lasting approximately 90 minutes, each serving radically different functions for memory, creativity, emotional resilience, and brain health. A perfect night's sleep comprises four or five complete cycles, totaling seven and a half to eight hours, with each cycle moving through stages that are, as Dr. Gina Poe notes, "entirely different from one another." Understanding this architecture is the foundation of using sleep deliberately to enhance learning, solve problems, and maintain emotional stability.

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What Are the Four Stages of Sleep?

Sleep divides into two major categories: non-REM (rapid eye movement) and REM sleep, each with distinct neurochemistry and purpose. Non-REM itself contains three stages, each with its own rhythm and function.

Stage One is the dozing phase—that light threshold between wakefulness and sleep. A fast gamma rhythm emerges in the brain, creating what researchers call "an interesting rhythm" as the mind begins to disengage from the external world.

Stage Two is where the real work begins. Once considered merely a transient state between wakefulness and deeper sleep, Stage Two is now recognized as critical for learning and memory. This stage contains two key features: sleep spindles and K complexes. Sleep spindles are brief bursts of brain activity occurring at 10 to 15 hertz—a conversation between the thalamus (the brain's gateway to consciousness) and the neocortex (which processes cognition). If awakened during a sleep spindle, a person typically reports a hallucinatory-style dream rather than the long narrative dreams of REM sleep. These spindles, as Poe explains, represent "a unique time when the hippocampus—the RAM of our brains—writes it to a hard disk, which is the cortex."

Stage Three (Deep Slow-Wave Sleep) is "the most impressively different" stage of all. During this phase, massive slow waves sweep through the brain—visible on an EEG as strikingly large oscillations. This is when the brain cleans itself at the cellular level, restores neurological function from a day of wakefulness, and consolidates procedural memories (skills and motor learning). It is also when the largest bolus of growth hormone is released—a phenomenon that occurs regardless of time of day in both men and women. This early-night surge of growth hormone drives protein synthesis, which is essential for building the synaptic space needed to encode new memories and support brain plasticity.

REM (Rapid Eye Movement) Sleep appears primarily in later cycles of the night. During REM, the eyes move rapidly beneath closed lids, and the brain generates the vivid, often bizarre dreams most people recall upon waking. REM sleep plays a central role in emotional processing, creativity, and the final stages of memory consolidation—particularly in transferring memories from hippocampus to cortex.

How Does Memory Move Through the Night?

One of the most elegant discoveries in sleep neuroscience involves how memories physically relocate during sleep. Early sleep—particularly the first four hours—is dominated by deep slow-wave sleep and Stage Two sleep rich in spindles. This is when newly learned information is processed. If you learn something new during the day or have a new sensory-motor experience, your early-night dreams will incorporate that material far more than later-night dreams.

As the night progresses and memories consolidate from the hippocampus (a deep temporal-lobe structure that serves as the brain's short-term storage) to the cortex (where long-term, distributed storage occurs), the dreams themselves shift. Research by Sidarto Rayo, studying rats across a full sleep cycle, mapped this migration directly: "Each subsequent REM sleep period moved that memory from the hippocampus to the first area that projects to it, then the second area, then the third area. You can see the memory moving throughout the sleep." This is not metaphorical—the memory's physical location in the brain changes, and the brain's narrative dreams reflect that journey.

What Happens in Each 90-Minute Cycle?

The first 90-minute cycle carries outsized importance. This is when the large bolus of growth hormone releases and when deep slow-wave sleep is most abundant. The growth hormone surge is time-locked to the circadian clock—it arrives when the body expects it. If you delay sleep, you do not simply shift that bolus later; your cells have already advanced their internal clock. "Every cell in our body has a clock," Poe explains, "and all of those circadian clocks are synchronized. Our cells are ready to respond to that growth hormone release at a particular time. If we miss it, you might get some growth hormone release, but it's occurring at a time when your clock has already moved to the next phase."

This is why consistent bedtimes and wake times are so powerful. They are not merely good hygiene—they are synchronization signals that keep every cell's clock aligned. "One of the best markers of good neurological health when we get older is consistent bedtimes," Poe notes.

Middle cycles (roughly hours 2–5 of sleep) continue to cycle through deep sleep and Stage Two sleep, but the balance shifts: deep sleep decreases slightly while Stage Two sleep increases. Later cycles (roughly hours 5–8) are dominated by longer and longer REM sleep periods, with minimal deep sleep. This is when the most vivid, longest dreams occur and when emotional memory consolidation and creative recombination of knowledge reaches its peak.

How Does Alcohol Disrupt Sleep Architecture?

Alcohol is a REM sleep suppressant. Consumed before sleep, it suppresses not only REM itself but also the Stage Two transitions that precede REM—and with them, the sleep spindles that transfer memories to the cortex. The suppression persists until alcohol is completely metabolized and cleared from the body. Because the memory-consolidation window (particularly the spindle-driven transfer from hippocampus to cortex) occurs early in the night, alcohol-induced REM suppression effectively erases one of the brain's most critical learning windows. Even if total sleep duration appears normal, the architecture is damaged.

What About Waking in the Middle of the Night?

Brief awakenings during the middle of the night are normal and should not trigger anxiety. "I think we shouldn't worry about" one or two brief arousals, Poe says. "If you can get back to sleep in a minute or two, you're fine." The key is returning to sleep quickly; prolonged wakefulness at night disrupts the architecture of subsequent cycles.

One common cause of middle-of-the-night waking is increased urination. This can reflect hormonal changes during sleep (particularly shifts in sodium and water balance) or external factors like evening fluid intake or caffeine. The relationship between sleep stage and urination arousal is bidirectional: certain sleep stages increase urge; urge disrupts sleep.

Morning Grogginess and Sleep Inertia

Waking during a deep sleep stage (versus a lighter stage) produces "sleep inertia"—that foggy, confused state some people experience upon waking, especially if jolted awake by an alarm. The brain and body take time to transition from sleep's neurochemistry to wakefulness. This is why waking naturally (or during a lighter stage) feels different than forced awakening from deep sleep. Sleep trackers, which attempt to predict wake times based on sleep-stage cycles, can help optimize wake timing, though Poe emphasizes that such tools are imperfect and should not become sources of anxiety.

How Does Early Sleep Support Brain Cleaning?

During deep slow-wave sleep, the brain's glymphatic system activates—a waste-clearance mechanism that removes metabolic debris accumulated during waking. Large slow waves sweep through the brain in a coordinated fashion; cerebrospinal fluid flows through neural tissue, clearing proteins like beta-amyloid that, if allowed to accumulate, contribute to cognitive decline. This "brain washing" occurs most robustly in the first cycle of sleep. Delaying sleep by even an hour delays the onset of this cleaning phase, and the synchronization between circadian clock and sleep-stage timing means the cleaning may be less efficient.

What Role Does the Locus Coeruleus Play in Learning During Sleep?

The locus coeruleus is a small brainstem region that releases noradrenaline (also called norepinephrine), a neuromodulator essential for attention, arousal, and learning. During waking, locus coeruleus activity supports focused attention and one-trial learning—the ability to learn something immediately and remember it vividly. During REM sleep, locus coeruleus activity drops dramatically, reaching its lowest levels of the entire 24-hour cycle. This "silence" is critical. When the locus coeruleus is quiet, the brain can consolidate emotional memories without reinforcing their emotional charge, replay learning scenarios without the urgency of the awake state, and integrate new information into existing knowledge schemas in a calm, associative way.

This is why sleep deprivation impairs both learning and emotional regulation: without sufficient REM sleep and its associated locus coeruleus quiet, the brain cannot consolidate memories or defuse emotional content properly. Conversely, a calm bedtime routine that allows the sympathetic nervous system to downregulate supports deeper REM sleep and more effective emotional processing.

What Are Sleep Spindles and P Waves, and Why Do They Matter for Learning?

Sleep spindles (10–15 Hz bursts occurring in Stage Two sleep) are moments of heightened communication between the hippocampus and cortex. They represent windows during which recently learned information is transferred from short-term to long-term storage. P waves, related oscillations seen during REM sleep, appear to serve a complementary function: integrating new information into existing cortical schemas (organized patterns of knowledge) rather than simply storing isolated facts.

This distinction is profound. The hippocampus records experiences in detail; the cortex generalizes them into concepts and categories. Early-night spindles handle the raw transfer; REM-sleep P waves handle the integration. Without both, learning is incomplete: you might remember an isolated fact but fail to connect it to what you already know, or you might understand a concept but fail to recall its specific details.

How Does REM Sleep Support Emotional Processing and Trauma Recovery?

REM sleep's quiet locus coeruleus enables a unique form of emotional processing. During REM, the brain can reactivate memories of emotionally charged events—the neural patterns associated with fear, grief, or pain—without simultaneously activating the noradrenaline system that normally tags experiences as urgent or threatening. In essence, REM sleep allows the brain to "replay" traumatic or stressful memories with the emotional charge divorced from the memory itself. Over repeated REM cycles, this allows the brain to consolidate the factual content of difficult experiences (which supports wisdom and learning) while gradually reducing the emotional reactivity (which supports resilience).

This process is fragile. Alcohol, trauma, and certain medications that suppress REM sleep can derail emotional recovery. Sufficient, undisrupted REM sleep—particularly across multiple nights—is essential for processing difficult experiences and maintaining emotional stability.

What Are Practical Tools to Optimize Sleep?

Consistent Bedtimes and Wake Times: Set a regular sleep schedule aligned with your circadian clock. This synchronizes all cellular clocks and ensures the growth hormone surge and brain-cleaning phases occur when your body is optimally prepared to benefit from them. As Poe emphasizes, consistency is "one of the best markers of good neurological health when we get older."

Avoid Alcohol Before Sleep: Alcohol suppresses REM and Stage Two sleep spindles, disrupting memory consolidation and emotional processing. If you drink, finish several hours before bed to allow complete metabolism.

Calm Bedtime Routine: A 30–60 minute wind-down period before sleep, free from bright screens and high-arousal stimuli, allows the sympathetic nervous system to calm and the locus coeruleus to lower its tone. This supports deeper REM sleep and more effective emotional consolidation. Practices like slow breathing, gentle stretching, reading, or meditation can be effective.

Sleep Duration: Aim for 7.5–8 hours nightly to complete four to five full 90-minute cycles. Shorter sleep truncates REM and middle-sleep cycles, impairing learning, creativity, and emotional resilience.

Brief Awakenings Are Normal: Do not catastrophize if you wake briefly in the night. If you can return to sleep within a minute or two, the sleep architecture remains intact. Anxiety about waking often causes more harm than the brief arousal itself.

Where to Go from Here

Sleep is not a luxury or a passive state—it is an active process as complex as waking cognition. Each of its stages serves specific, irreplaceable functions: consolidating memories, releasing hormones, cleaning the brain, processing emotions, and enabling creativity. Understanding this architecture transforms how you approach sleep. Rather than viewing it as time lost, you can recognize it as time invested in learning, emotional resilience, and long-term cognitive health. The tools are straightforward: consistency, avoidance of sleep disruptors like alcohol, and a calm transition to sleep. These small practices align your body's clock with your sleep-stage cycles and unlock sleep's full restorative and learning-enhancing potential.

Transcript

[0:00] Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials,

[0:02] [music] where we revisit past episodes

[0:04] for the most potent and actionable

[0:06] science-based tools for mental health,

[0:09] physical health, and performance.

[0:12] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

[0:13] of neurobiology and opthalmology at

[0:16] Stanford School of Medicine. And now for

[0:18] my discussion with Dr. Gina Poe. Dr.

[0:20] Gino Poe, welcome.

[0:22] >> Thank you.

[0:23] >> I've really been looking forward to this

[0:24] conversation. I know that many people

[0:26] are going to be excited to learn about

[0:27] your work as it relates to sleep, as it

[0:30] relates to problem solving, creativity,

[0:32] and a number of other important topics.

[0:34] To start things off, I would love for

[0:36] you to educate us a bit about this thing

[0:38] that we are all familiar with and yet

[0:40] very few of us understand, which is

[0:42] sleep. Could you describe the various

[0:45] phases of sleep that exist, what

[0:47] distinguish them, and perhaps frame this

[0:50] within the context of what would a

[0:51] perfect night's sleep look like?

[0:53] >> All right. So sleep is really different

[0:55] from wakefulness and in fact can't be

[0:58] replaced by any state of wakefulness

[1:00] that we've been able to come up with so

[1:02] far. Our brain chemistry is completely

[1:04] different and in the different stages of

[1:06] sleep which there are is nonREM and REM

[1:09] are the two major states of sleep. Those

[1:11] two states are entirely different from

[1:13] one another too. And even within nonREM

[1:15] there are three states. Stage one, which

[1:17] is what you slip into when you first

[1:19] falling asleep. It's dozing. There's

[1:22] kind of an interesting rhythm that goes

[1:23] on in the brain. It's kind of a fast

[1:25] gamma rhythm. And then there's stage

[1:27] two, which is a really cool state. We

[1:29] sort of used to ignore sleep researchers

[1:32] because it was a transient state between

[1:34] wakefulness and the deep stage three

[1:36] slowwave sleep, which is the most

[1:38] impressively different, which is when

[1:40] big slow waves sweep through our brain.

[1:42] And now we've realized that it cleans

[1:44] our brain. Um, one of the things that

[1:45] those big slow waves do is cleans our

[1:47] brain and does other really important

[1:49] things to restore us from a day of

[1:52] wakefulness. And then REM sleep, which

[1:54] is the most popular because that's where

[1:55] we have the most active dreams. When you

[1:58] wake up someone out of REM sleep,

[2:00] they'll almost always report having

[2:01] dreamed something really bizarre. That's

[2:04] called REM sleep, rapid eye movement

[2:05] sleep. So those are the four states of

[2:08] sleep of human sleep. And we cycle

[2:10] through them every 90 minutes or so. And

[2:13] then we start over again. And we have

[2:15] about five of those per night for a

[2:17] perfect night's sleep. Four or five,

[2:19] something like that. So a perfect

[2:21] night's sleep is 7 and 1 half, 8 hours.

[2:23] And

[2:23] >> what about the sleep where we are

[2:25] lightly asleep

[2:27] >> and we might have a dream that has us

[2:30] somehow thinking about movement or that

[2:32] we jolt ourselves awake. That often

[2:33] happens early in the night, right?

[2:35] >> Yeah. That's the first stage, stage one

[2:38] and stage two of sleep. And stage two

[2:40] sleep is really cool because that has

[2:44] something called sleep spindles and K

[2:46] complexes. And what sleep spindles are

[2:48] are a little of activity that's 10 to 15

[2:51] hertz in frequency. It's a conversation

[2:55] between the phalamus and the cortex. The

[2:57] phalamus is the gateway to consciousness

[2:59] and the neoortex, you know, processes

[3:01] all our cognition. And if you wake up

[3:04] out of that state, you will often report

[3:06] a dream like a hallucination style

[3:08] dream. It won't be a long dream report

[3:11] like you have out of REM sleep, but it

[3:13] will be some hallucination state.

[3:14] >> Are they quite different than the

[3:16] patterns of sleep and dreaming that

[3:18] occur later in the night or toward

[3:20] morning?

[3:20] >> There is some evidence that the first 4

[3:23] hours of sleep are very important for

[3:26] memory processing. And in fact, if

[3:28] you've learned something new that day or

[3:32] have experienced a new sensory motor

[3:35] experience, then your early sleep dreams

[3:39] will incorporate that experience much

[3:41] more than the later sleep dreams. Later

[3:43] as that memory gets consolidated from

[3:46] the early structures which are the

[3:48] hippocampus deep in the temporal lobe to

[3:50] the cortex in a distributed fashion that

[3:54] memory seems to move from that

[3:56] hippocampus to the cortex and also the

[3:58] dreams that incorporate that memory also

[4:01] move later in the night. So

[4:03] >> there was a great study by Sedarto Rayo

[4:06] who studied the consolidation of

[4:09] memories from the hippocampus to the

[4:10] cortex in a rat across the period of a

[4:14] full day sleep because rats sleep in the

[4:17] daytime. And he found that each

[4:19] subsequent rim sleep period moved that

[4:22] memory from the hippocampus to the f

[4:26] first area that projects to it and then

[4:28] the second area and then the third area.

[4:30] and you can see the memory moving um

[4:32] through the throughout the sleep.

[4:34] >> There's a number of different hormones

[4:36] associated with the different stages of

[4:38] sleep. We know that melatonin is a

[4:40] hormone

[4:41] >> of night time

[4:42] >> of nighttime that makes us sleepy. What

[4:44] about growth hormone release? When does

[4:46] that occur during sleep?

[4:47] >> So growth hormone release happens all

[4:49] day long and all night long. But the

[4:51] deep slow wave sleep that you get, the

[4:53] very first sleep cycle is when you get a

[4:56] big bolus of growth hormone release. and

[4:59] in men and women equally. And if you

[5:02] miss that first deep slow wave sleep

[5:05] period, you also miss that big bolus of

[5:08] growth hormone release. And you might

[5:10] get ultimately across the day just as

[5:12] much overall growth hormone release. But

[5:15] andologists will tell you that big

[5:17] bololises do different things than a

[5:19] little bit eaked out over time. There's

[5:21] also a big push to synthesize proteins.

[5:25] So that's when the protein synthesis

[5:28] part that builds memories for example in

[5:30] our brain happens in that first cycle of

[5:34] sleep. So you don't want to miss that

[5:35] especially if you've learned something

[5:37] really big and needs needs more synaptic

[5:40] space to encode it.

[5:41] >> How would somebody miss that first 90

[5:43] minutes

[5:43] >> depriving themselves? Yeah. So, so let's

[5:46] say I normally go to sleep at 10:00 p.m.

[5:48] >> and then from 10 to 11:30 would be this

[5:51] first phase of sleep and that's when the

[5:53] growth hormone big bololis of growth

[5:54] hormone would be released. Does that

[5:56] mean that if I go to sleep instead at

[5:58] 11:30 or midnight that I miss that first

[6:00] phase of sleep? Why is it not the case

[6:02] that I get that first phase of sleep

[6:04] just simply starting later? Every cell

[6:06] in our body has a clock and all of those

[6:09] circadian clocks are synchronized and so

[6:12] our cells are ready to respond to that

[6:16] growth hormone release at a particular

[6:17] time and if we miss it and it's a time

[6:20] in relation to melatonin also. So if you

[6:23] miss it, yeah, you might get some growth

[6:25] hormone release, but it's occurring at a

[6:27] time when that your clock has already

[6:29] moved to the next phase. And so it's

[6:32] it's just a clock thing. So what this

[6:34] means is that we should have fairly

[6:35] consistent bedtimes in addition to

[6:37] fairly consistent wake times. Is that

[6:39] right?

[6:39] >> Exactly. And in fact, one of the best

[6:42] markers of good neurological health when

[6:44] we get older is consistent bedtimes.

[6:48] >> What other things inhibit growth hormone

[6:50] release or other components of this

[6:52] first stage of sleep? Are there things

[6:53] that I perhaps do in the preceding hours

[6:56] or the preceding day like ingest

[6:58] caffeine or alcohol that can make that

[7:00] first stage of sleep less effective even

[7:02] if I'm going to sleep at the same time?

[7:04] >> Alcohol definitely will do that because

[7:06] alcohol is a REM sleep suppressant and

[7:08] it even suppresses some of that stage

[7:10] two transition to REM with those sleep

[7:12] spindles. And those sleep spindles, we

[7:13] didn't talk about their function yet,

[7:15] but they're really important for moving

[7:17] memories to our cortex. It's a unique

[7:20] time when our hippocampus the sort of

[7:22] like the RAM of our brains writes it to

[7:25] a hard disk which is the cortex and

[7:28] there it's a unique time when they're

[7:29] connected. So if you don't want to miss

[7:32] that you don't want to miss REM sleep

[7:33] when is also a part of the consolidation

[7:35] process and alcohol before we go to

[7:38] sleep will do that until we've

[7:39] metabolized alcohol and put it out of

[7:42] our bodies it will affect our sleep

[7:45] badly. What about the second and third

[7:47] 90minute blocks of sleep? Is there

[7:49] anything that makes those um unique?

[7:52] What what is their signature? Besides

[7:53] the fact that they come second and third

[7:55] in the night,

[7:55] >> there's more and more REM sleep the

[7:57] later the night we get. There's also a

[8:00] change in hormones. You know, the growth

[8:02] hormone and melatonin levels are

[8:05] starting to decline, but other hormones

[8:07] are picking up. So, it is a really

[8:10] different stage that you also don't want

[8:12] to short change yourself on. And I think

[8:14] that's the stage many studies are

[8:16] showing that those are the times in

[8:18] sleep when the most creativity can

[8:20] happen. That's when our dreams can

[8:23] incorporate and put together old and new

[8:25] things together into a new way and our

[8:28] schema are built during that time. So

[8:31] that's when your computer of your brain

[8:34] is opening folders and comparing

[8:36] documents seeing if is there anything

[8:37] the same? Are these two documents look

[8:40] very much the same? that there's a

[8:41] little bit of difference and it can it

[8:44] can link those conceptually. So that

[8:46] that's probably one of the origins of

[8:48] creativity is finding things that are

[8:50] related maybe just linked a little bit

[8:53] and you can find that link and

[8:55] strengthen it if it you know makes your

[8:57] schema interesting and different.

[8:59] >> Many people including myself tend to

[9:02] wake up maybe once during the middle of

[9:04] the night to use the restroom. I've

[9:05] tried to drink less fluid before going

[9:07] to sleep. I've heard also the impulse to

[9:09] urinate is also dictated by how quickly

[9:11] you drink fluid, not just the total

[9:13] volume. So, I've switched to um sipping

[9:15] fluids more slowly for my last beverage

[9:16] of the day, which seems to help. Is

[9:18] there any known detriment to this middle

[9:22] of the night waking or should we

[9:23] consider it a normal feature for some

[9:25] people's sleep architecture?

[9:27] >> Yeah, I think we shouldn't worry about

[9:28] it. Actually, sleep is really incredibly

[9:31] well homeostatically regulated. And so

[9:34] really don't worry about how much you're

[9:36] sleeping as long as you're not

[9:37] intentionally depriving yourself of

[9:39] sleep by doing something really

[9:40] rewarding and exciting because even that

[9:42] is stressful to your body and deprivives

[9:44] you of a lot of the things we're talking

[9:46] about. It's absolutely normal to wake up

[9:48] at least once in the middle of the night

[9:50] to go to the bathroom. And as long as

[9:52] you can get back to sleep in a

[9:53] reasonable amount of time or even if it

[9:55] takes you an hour, don't worry about it.

[9:57] as long as you have a lifestyle that

[9:59] allows you to then make up that sleep

[10:02] either the next morning or the next

[10:04] night um or going to bed a little

[10:06] earlier.

[10:06] >> What is unique perhaps about the

[10:09] architecture of dreams and sleep in the

[10:11] let's say the last third of the night or

[10:13] the or the second half of the night,

[10:15] >> right? Yeah. In the second half of the

[10:16] night, we have longer REM sleep periods

[10:19] and those are considered the deepest

[10:22] sleep. Even though slowwave sleep, big

[10:24] slow wave is considered deep. It is

[10:26] deep.

[10:27] >> Yeah. They call slowwave sleep deep

[10:28] sleep and REM sleep rapid eye. But now

[10:30] you're telling me that REM sleep is

[10:31] actually the deeper sleep.

[10:33] >> The reason why you call slowwave sleep

[10:34] deep sleep is because it's difficult to

[10:37] arouse people out of that state. And

[10:39] when you do arouse them out of that

[10:40] state, they're most often confused and

[10:43] just want to go back into sleep and can

[10:45] go back pretty easily. If you arouse

[10:48] someone out of REM sleep, they're more

[10:49] likely to report something that was

[10:50] really kind of almost like wakefulness.

[10:52] It's it was so vivid. And maybe one of

[10:55] the reasons why REM sleep is deeper is

[10:57] especially in adults and older people

[10:59] that deep slowwave sleep goes away. So

[11:02] it's not as deep. It's not as big. The

[11:04] slow waves aren't as large which is

[11:06] probably problematic but we are not

[11:08] sure. And so then REM sleep becomes the

[11:11] deepest stage.

[11:13] >> We are paralyzed during REM sleep.

[11:15] Correct.

[11:15] >> Yes. normally paralyzed and that's

[11:17] really good because that's the time when

[11:20] we're actively dreaming storyline dreams

[11:22] and we could hurt ourselves. We're

[11:24] actually really cut off from the outside

[11:27] world in terms of responding to say this

[11:30] table or window or a door and so

[11:33] different from sleepwalking which is out

[11:35] of slow sleep. Out of slow sleep that

[11:37] sleepwalking is a mixture between sleep

[11:39] and wakefulness. You can cook a full

[11:42] meal, um, drive your car while you're in

[11:44] deep, slow sleep. It's scary because you

[11:47] never know what you're going to do. You

[11:48] don't have voluntary voluntary control

[11:50] over it. You have no conscious control

[11:52] over it, but you can actually safely

[11:54] navigate um some situations in

[11:57] sleepwalking and actually have a

[11:59] conversation. Although it may not make

[12:01] much sense when you're sleeptalking, in

[12:03] REM sleep, you're not processing the

[12:06] outside world. and instead um when

[12:09] you're acting out your dreams, you could

[12:11] be doing things like walking through a

[12:13] plate glass window or falling off of,

[12:16] you know, down a stairs um things like

[12:18] that. So, you really want your muscles

[12:21] to be inactivated during REM sleep,

[12:24] otherwise you will act out those dreams

[12:26] and really hurt yourself or your bed

[12:28] partner. So, as people start to approach

[12:31] morning or the time when they normally

[12:33] would wake up, I've heard that it's

[12:35] important to, if possible, complete one

[12:38] of these 90minute cycles prior to waking

[12:40] up. That is, if you set your alarm for

[12:43] halfway through one of these 90minute

[12:44] cycles that come late in the night of

[12:46] sleep that it can lead to um rather

[12:50] groggy patterns of waking.

[12:52] >> It's called sleep inertia. When we wake

[12:54] up out of the wrong state, I liken it to

[12:56] a washing machine cycle. This 90 minute

[12:59] cycle is like a washing machine cycle.

[13:00] And the first part is to add water,

[13:02] right? Then your clothes are soaking

[13:04] wet. You don't want to open the washing

[13:05] machine and try and function, put them

[13:08] on and wear them around while they're

[13:10] soaking wet and full of soap. So you

[13:12] have to wait until the cycle is through

[13:14] before you can well actually

[13:17] put it in the dryer, too. Um before you

[13:20] want to wear them. So you can function.

[13:22] It just takes a little while for those

[13:24] clothes, that brain to dry out so you

[13:27] can actually function well. But it's

[13:28] better to wait through the whole cycle

[13:30] is complete. So that's why you want to

[13:33] set that 90 90 minute alarm clock. And

[13:36] again, that's around 90 minutes because

[13:39] the first stage of sleep, the first

[13:41] cycle of sleep is actually a little

[13:43] longer, more like 105, 110 minutes. But

[13:47] then the second ones and third ones,

[13:48] they get sort of shorter and shorter as

[13:50] the night goes on. And in the last few

[13:52] cycles, you're just doing the N2 REM

[13:56] sleep cycle, which takes less time. And

[13:58] if you wake up out of REM sleep, there's

[13:59] usually no problem cognitively.

[14:01] >> Are you a fan of of sleep trackers?

[14:04] >> Yeah.

[14:05] >> Yeah. Do you use one?

[14:06] >> I have one on. I don't live my life by

[14:09] them because the best ones right now are

[14:11] about 70% effective at

[14:13] >> staging your sleep. So 70% it's okay.

[14:16] It's okay. But um take it with a grain

[14:19] of salt is what I'm saying. tell us a

[14:21] little bit more about the wash out that

[14:22] occurs in the brain during sleep and

[14:24] perhaps if there are any ways to ensure

[14:26] that it happens or to ensure that it

[14:28] doesn't happen and obviously we want

[14:30] this to happen.

[14:30] >> Yeah, we talked about the circadian

[14:32] clock and how certain things happen at

[14:34] certain times. Well, one of the things

[14:35] that happens when we're awake and

[14:37] talking to each other is that there's a

[14:40] lot of plasticity. there's something

[14:42] that I'm learning from you today and

[14:44] you're learning from me and that changes

[14:46] our synapses and it changes the way our

[14:49] proteins are going to be folded and

[14:52] changed during sleep. This process

[14:54] actually uses a lot of ATP, the power um

[14:58] structure, the fuel of the brain. It

[15:00] unfolds also proteins while we're doing

[15:03] this, while we're using them. And so

[15:05] during that first part of the night, uh,

[15:07] when we first fall asleep, in the first

[15:09] 20 minutes or so, we're building that

[15:11] adenosine back into ATP. And that's, uh,

[15:15] probably why power naps are called power

[15:17] naps because we're actually rebuilding

[15:19] the power. And then we're also cleaning

[15:23] out through the deep slow waves of slow

[15:25] wave sleep. We're cleaning out all those

[15:27] misfolded proteins, unfolded proteins,

[15:30] and other things that get broken down

[15:33] and, you know, need to be rebuilt when

[15:35] we're asleep because of its use during

[15:38] wakefulness. So I liken that to, you

[15:42] know, having a big party during

[15:43] wakefulness and you need all those

[15:45] partygoers to leave in order to do the

[15:47] cleanup. What happens when a neuron is

[15:49] firing is that it expands. The membrane

[15:52] expands a little bit. It becomes more

[15:54] translucent. That's how we know, one of

[15:56] the ways we know that neurons expand

[15:57] when they fire. And so every action

[16:00] potential, the membrane expands a little

[16:02] bit as sodium brings water into the

[16:05] cell. And then when they're silent, they

[16:07] contract. And so in during slow waves,

[16:09] the cool thing is that the reason why

[16:11] you can measure them is that all the

[16:13] neurons at the same time, not all of

[16:15] them, but a good portion of them are

[16:17] firing at the same time and silent at

[16:19] the same time. And so you think about

[16:21] that as contracting and expanding all at

[16:24] the same time. It's kind of like a

[16:26] billagege pump of the brain. So that can

[16:28] pump out. GIA are also really important

[16:30] for this in terms of cleaning up debris

[16:34] and transferring it to where it needs to

[16:36] go. So, um, so I think of it actually as

[16:39] a billagege pump cleaning out our brain.

[16:42] >> Here you're talking about literally an

[16:43] expansion and a contraction of the

[16:45] neurons in unison

[16:46] >> and pushing the fluid through

[16:49] >> cleaning out any misfolded proteins or

[16:51] debris that might occur

[16:52] >> on the basis of these metabolic

[16:54] pathways.

[16:55] >> And the consequence of that is to to

[16:58] what to leave the brain in a state of

[17:00] more pristine action for the next day.

[17:03] Is that right?

[17:04] >> Yeah. You think of it again like a party

[17:05] and if you don't clean up after that

[17:07] party and you try and hold another one

[17:09] the next day, it's going to get more

[17:10] clogged. You know, it's people have a

[17:12] harder time moving around and enjoying

[17:14] themselves. And um if that builds up day

[17:17] after day, you know, it's going to be

[17:19] cognition that would be the partygoers

[17:22] moving around becomes

[17:24] hard.

[17:25] >> And so this um build pump that you

[17:27] describe is associated with the big slow

[17:30] waves of slowwave sleep. So this is

[17:32] going to occur more or less in the first

[17:34] third of the night. Is that right?

[17:35] >> That's right.

[17:36] >> And is this similar to the case with

[17:38] growth hormone where if you go to sleep

[17:40] later than you would normally, you miss

[17:42] the wash out. You It's not You don't

[17:44] delay it. You miss You miss the wash

[17:46] out.

[17:46] >> That's right. That's right. So if you go

[17:48] to sleep at 1 or 2 in the morning, your

[17:51] sleep is still going to be dominated by

[17:52] N2 and REM sleep, not by slow wave

[17:55] sleep. So you need to you need to get

[17:58] that first bit of sleep. Would a caveat

[18:00] to that be if somebody normally goes to

[18:02] sleep at 1 or 2 a.m. and wakes up at

[18:04] 10:00 a.m. if that's their normal sleep

[18:06] cycle?

[18:07] >> Yeah, it should be okay. Somebody would

[18:09] want to do a sleep study with people who

[18:11] do that normally and see if also the

[18:13] melatonin release is later and the

[18:15] corticostone rise that's happens

[18:18] normally in the morning also happens

[18:20] later. So if everything shifted good,

[18:23] >> I'd love for you to tell us about this

[18:25] incredible structure in the brain which

[18:28] is the locus ceruius and hopefully tell

[18:30] us a little bit about its relationship

[18:32] to epinephrine aka adrenaline.

[18:35] >> Yeah. So um the locus curillus is filled

[18:37] with neurons that have in them

[18:39] norepinephrine which is the brain's

[18:42] version of epinephrine or adrenaline.

[18:43] It's also called noradrenaline. And what

[18:46] it does is it just like adrenaline in

[18:48] the rest of our bodies, it helps prime

[18:50] us to respond to our environment. So

[18:54] when locus rules neurons fire and fire

[18:57] in a burst, we can switch our attention

[18:59] and they will fire in a burst if for

[19:01] example a loud noise happens in the

[19:03] middle of your concentrating on

[19:05] something. It fires and it helps you

[19:07] switch your attention to that thing and

[19:08] then learn quickly from it. So it's

[19:10] really important in a stress response.

[19:12] It helps us do quick one trial learning.

[19:16] But just tonic levels are signature of

[19:18] wakefulness and alertness. So too much

[19:21] is panic with the locusillis activity. A

[19:25] burst is switching attention. And then

[19:28] tonic levels are sustained constant

[19:31] attention. And then when we go to sleep

[19:33] the locus slows and come goes from about

[19:37] on average um two hertz to about one

[19:39] hertz one cycle per second tonically and

[19:43] then when we go into REM sleep it's the

[19:44] only time when it shuts off completely

[19:46] and it appears that that complete

[19:50] silence is really really important for a

[19:52] number of things and the main thing that

[19:55] I think it's important for is the

[19:58] ability to erase and break down synapses

[20:01] that are no longer working for us. So

[20:02] they encode things that are false now or

[20:06] they are encoding things that we um

[20:09] learned in the novelty encoding pathway

[20:11] in of our of our brain that have now

[20:14] been consolidated to other pathways and

[20:17] so we need to now erase them from the

[20:18] novelty encoding pathway and that is

[20:21] really really important for being able

[20:23] to continue to learn things all of our

[20:25] lives. So like erasing that RAM um or

[20:28] that I don't know what do you call those

[20:29] discs that you stick into computers that

[20:31] >> oh thumb drives thumb drives erasing

[20:33] your thumb drive. So that thumb drive is

[20:35] what you carry around all day long and

[20:37] then during sleep you write that thumb

[20:40] drive to the cortex to the long-term

[20:41] memory structures and you need to

[20:43] refresh that thumb drive and that's what

[20:45] happens during REM sleep when the locus

[20:47] realis is off and so if we're not able

[20:49] to do that we fill up that RAM um really

[20:53] quickly or that thumb drive really

[20:55] quickly and we're not able to learn new

[20:57] things even memories that are years past

[21:00] if you're never able to downscale that

[21:02] novelty encoding structure and purge it

[21:05] from that traumatic memory, it will stay

[21:08] fresh and new and then become

[21:11] maladaptive.

[21:12] >> What approaches are you aware of that

[21:15] can um turn down the output of locus

[21:18] ceruius during these phases of sleep and

[21:21] allow late stages of sleep each night to

[21:24] have their maximum positive effect.

[21:26] >> Is there anything that I can do besides

[21:28] avoiding um serotonin or noradinergic

[21:31] compounds? Well, I would also avoid

[21:33] anything just prior to going to sleep

[21:35] that might excite those systems. So, a

[21:38] lot of novelty, stress inducing video

[21:41] games. Try and enter sleep with as much

[21:46] calm as you can. So, maybe deep

[21:48] breathing exercises. That's a beautiful

[21:51] way to calm your sympathetic fight

[21:53] orflight system is deep breathing. And

[21:56] if there's a way you can make your

[21:58] sympathetic nervous system calm down

[22:00] before you go to sleep, might free for

[22:02] you meditation or deep breathing

[22:04] exercises. Might be for some a warm bath

[22:06] or a comforting book. Nothing too

[22:09] exciting, but also nothing too boring

[22:11] perhaps. Just something right in the

[22:13] middle which makes you feel happy and

[22:16] calm is what you should do. And if you

[22:18] instead go to sleep while you're anxious

[22:21] or hyped up, then your sleep could

[22:24] become maladaptive.

[22:25] >> I'd love for you to share with us a

[22:27] little bit more about um these spindles

[22:29] that have come up a few times.

[22:30] >> The density of our sleep spindles, the

[22:32] number that we produce per minute is

[22:34] well correlated with our intelligence in

[22:36] the first place. And that no matter what

[22:38] your intelligence is and no matter what

[22:40] your sleep spindle density is, if you

[22:43] learn something during the day and

[22:45] increase your sleep spindle density,

[22:47] it's really almost perfectly correlated

[22:49] with our ability to consolidate that

[22:51] information and and incorporate it into

[22:53] the schema that we already have in our

[22:55] brain. So if you try and learn something

[22:58] new, even if your sleep spindle density

[22:59] at baseline is great, if you don't

[23:01] increase your sleep spindles that night,

[23:03] you're not going to, you know, use sleep

[23:06] to really incorporate it. One of the

[23:08] things we now know through some great

[23:09] studies by Julie Seep and Anita Luthie

[23:12] is that sleep spindles are accompanied

[23:15] by an incredible

[23:17] plasticity out in the distal dendrites,

[23:20] the listening branches of our neurons

[23:22] that listen to other cortical areas. So

[23:26] there are proximal dendrites in our

[23:27] neurons that listen to the external

[23:30] world and are conducted through the

[23:32] phalamus and then there are distal

[23:34] dendrites which listen to an internal

[23:36] kind of you know conversation that's h

[23:38] happening in our brains. It's kind of

[23:41] you know our internal state really and

[23:43] during sleep spindles that's when those

[23:45] distal dendrites are able to best learn

[23:49] from other cortical areas and from the

[23:51] hippocampus. It is during sleep spindles

[23:54] that the hippocampus and the cortex are

[23:55] best connected and when that plast

[23:58] incredible plasticity can happen. So

[24:00] when I talk about schema, that's a

[24:02] cortical cortical thing. There's big

[24:04] surges of calcium into those distal

[24:07] dendrites and where plasticity happens

[24:09] in just huge amounts during that sleep

[24:12] spindle stage of sleep which is N2

[24:14] stage. There's another excitatory event

[24:17] that comes all the way from the brain

[24:19] stem and projects everywhere in our

[24:21] cortex which is called PGO waves which

[24:24] we should generalize to P waves because

[24:26] they come from the ponds and go to the

[24:27] phalamus and then the cortex happens all

[24:30] over the brains and that is where

[24:32] glutamate which is a major excitatory

[24:34] neurotransmitter involved in learning

[24:36] and plasticity is being released in big

[24:38] amounts also in those distal dendrites.

[24:41] Pwaves and spindles work together to

[24:43] cause plasticity and sew our schema

[24:46] together which could be the origins for

[24:48] insight and creativity. Now when P waves

[24:50] were first discovered, it was thought to

[24:54] be random because this small area that

[24:56] generates P waves all over the brain

[24:58] projects all over the phalamus and

[25:00] causes P waves all over. And you don't

[25:02] measure P waves all over the brain at

[25:05] the same time. In fact, it's just seems

[25:06] sporadic and random. And Pwaves also

[25:09] happening even more during REM sleep,

[25:12] rapid eye movement sleep. So that's why

[25:14] people think that REM dreams are so

[25:17] random is because these P waves are

[25:19] random and they could generate dreams

[25:22] because they're an internal source of

[25:25] excitation that kind of replaces the

[25:28] outside world during our dream state.

[25:30] And so these Pwaves, if they are random,

[25:33] could be the underlying reason why

[25:35] creativity can happen there is because

[25:37] we're randomly activating, co-activating

[25:40] different things in our brain that we

[25:41] can then sew together. Um, but it might

[25:44] not be as random as we think. So that's

[25:46] a caveat there.

[25:47] >> So locus ceruius is suppressed. So we

[25:50] can't release norepinephrine. We can't

[25:52] act out our dreams. This almost starts

[25:54] to sound like a little bit of a built-in

[25:56] um while sleeping trauma therapy. Mh.

[26:00] >> So please if there's anything about

[26:02] locust ceruius and and dreams and that

[26:05] can help people basically extinguish

[26:08] traumas or traumatic features to to real

[26:10] life events and we definitely want to

[26:12] know about them.

[26:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think one of the

[26:15] things that people thought might help

[26:17] after a trauma like a school shooting or

[26:20] whatever you know car accident is to

[26:22] talk about it and in but in fact that

[26:25] ended up being counterproductive. And I

[26:27] think one of the reasons why it was

[26:28] counterproductive is because it didn't

[26:30] take you them back down. It brought them

[26:32] up and continued to reactivate the

[26:34] emotions of it, but then didn't

[26:37] emphasize the safety fact that it's over

[26:39] or help them work through how they might

[26:42] avoid it again in the future to calm the

[26:45] sympathetic nervous system down again

[26:47] before they went to sleep. And and in

[26:49] any none of these studies has sleep ever

[26:51] been considered, but to me that's the

[26:53] key part is bringing down your

[26:55] sympathetic nervous system before you go

[26:57] to sleep so that your sleep can be

[26:59] adaptive, your locus can shut off like

[27:01] it normally does or should do and then

[27:05] able to erase the novelty of it. The

[27:08] other thing that I just mentioned a

[27:10] minute ago was that the emotional system

[27:12] is highly activated in REM sleep. And

[27:14] that's definitely true. And that might

[27:16] seem counterproductive in terms of, you

[27:19] know, the nightmares and and how to help

[27:22] REM sleep be a therapeutic thing rather

[27:25] than reinforcing the emotionality of the

[27:27] trauma. And I think the key to that

[27:30] again is the absence of norepinephrine.

[27:32] So even though the emotional system is

[27:35] in high gear, without norepinephrine,

[27:38] you can actually divorce those highly

[27:42] activated emotions from the cognitive

[27:46] parts of the memory that you have just

[27:48] written out in that N2 stage of sleep

[27:50] when the sleep spindles are going. So

[27:53] you've just now consolidated the

[27:55] information that you'll need to survive

[27:57] and to you know to make that adaptive

[27:59] and now you need to divorce from that

[28:02] schema and from that semantic parts of

[28:05] memory the emotional part because

[28:07] whenever you remember something it's

[28:10] fine if you remember the being emotional

[28:13] at the time but you don't want to bring

[28:15] back and sew into that memory all of the

[28:17] same emotional systems. You don't want

[28:19] to bring back, you know, the heart rate

[28:21] changes and the sweating and and all of

[28:24] that. You want to be able to remember

[28:26] all the parts of it and even remember

[28:27] that you were traumatized and that you

[28:30] did cry and that you did have, you know,

[28:32] your heart was racing. But when you're

[28:34] talking about it years later, you don't

[28:37] want to have to relive all that.

[28:38] Otherwise, who who would ever want to

[28:40] recall a traumatic memory because you're

[28:42] basically putting yourself through the

[28:44] same trauma, which is what people with

[28:45] PTSD have. They don't want to recall

[28:48] this traumatic memory because it's

[28:50] reliving it like it's just happening

[28:52] again. So that's what we're thinking is

[28:54] that the emotional parts are not able to

[28:57] be divorced because the norphan system

[29:00] is not downscaled during REM sleep. And

[29:03] so that REM sleep serves to instead

[29:06] reinforce and in fact amplify the

[29:08] emotions because your your emotional

[29:11] system is up. Look, Serilla says, "Hi,

[29:14] re- sewing in every night the

[29:17] emotionality of those memories and with

[29:19] the memory itself."

[29:20] >> I must say, you've taught us a

[29:22] tremendous amount in um in a relatively

[29:25] short amount of time about the

[29:26] architecture of sleep, the different

[29:28] phases, such a wealth of information,

[29:30] and much of it that's actionable for

[29:32] people. So, I want to say thank you for

[29:34] taking the time to sit down and have

[29:36] this conversation that so many people

[29:38] are sure to benefit from. I know I speak

[29:40] for everybody when I say thank you so

[29:42] much. [music]

[29:42] >> Thank you so much.

Andrew Huberman
AutorAndrew Huberman

Andrew Huberman is a neuroscientist and educator at Stanford University known for translating research on neural plasticity, vision, and stress neuroscience into practical framewor…

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