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Inspiration

Why No Two Minds See the Same Truth: A 1995 Retreat Talk

Springwater Center
Springwater Center
Dec 5, 2023
10 Min. Lesezeit

Von Springwater Center

Ansehen · 7

On the sixth day of a February 1995 retreat at Springwater Center in Western New York, Toni Packer opened with a problem that most people carry around without examining: if we share the same evolutionary history, the same biology and the same electrochemical processes, why can we not agree on what is true? Her answer is neither a shrug nor a lecture. It turns on a single word she said she had looked up on a walk that morning. Idiosyncrasy, she reported from Webster's, means one's own peculiar mixture. From that small definition the talk moves through intellectual minds, impatient group discussions, a pair of twins on a city street and the claim that arguing from inside our personal mixture can never arrive at truth. What follows explains the ideas in that talk and why they still read as a practical instruction for anyone who has ever lost a friendship over a disagreement about what really happened.

Lesen · 6 Abschnitte

What does Toni Packer mean by a "body-mind"?

Packer began by holding two facts side by side. The first is that human beings have a common history. We share a planet's history, a star's history, an evolutionary inheritance and a shared chemistry of the body. The second is that each human mind is strikingly different from every other. She offered a partial list of the minds she had heard named in meetings at the retreat: the intellectual mind of the PhD, the poetic mind, the musical mind, the mind of the artist, the dancer, the businessman, the person drawn to spiritual pursuits, and the psychic person with occult tendencies. She said plainly that the list could go on.

What interested her most was that these traits are not fixed. Characteristics "are not carved in stone," she said, and they can shift within a single person as interests, insights and experience change. Someone who has always been analytical may find themselves speaking in images without planning to. Someone who thought of themselves as wholly poetic may suddenly speak with blunt factual clarity. Packer's point was not that people have no tendencies. Most of us have outstanding ones, leaning more scientific or more poetic, more direct or more indirect. Her point was that those leanings are a passing shape of something much larger and more fluid than a personality label.

She then named the thing that prevents us from seeing this. It is the evaluating mind, which wishes a person were more scientific or less bohemian, more artistic or more practical. Packer described the work of contacting one's own mind "without preference, without judgement," and watching that judging process as it runs. The aim is not to stop judging through willpower. It is to notice the judging as one more movement of the same mind.

When does a conversation become "too intellectual"?

The talk grew out of the previous day's discussion, in which someone had complained that conversations at the retreat were sometimes too intellectual. Packer did not take that complaint at face value. She suggested that the criticism itself deserved a look, and that the speaker should look at themselves while talking, if that was possible at all. She acknowledged that this is hard at first. Most of us cannot easily hear what we are saying and examine it, not analytically, but immediately.

Her test is precise. The question is not whether a mind is intellectual or direct by temperament. The question is whether, at this moment, there is "some immediacy of looking and questioning." If that immediacy is present, even the most abstract and aloof mind will supply words that describe what it sees, feels, hears or discovers right now. If it is absent, words come from memory, from books, from what other people have said, and they arrive as theory. Packer suggested that much of what people call "too intellectual" is really a complaint about a lack of directness: a lack of contact with experience as it is being lived, or as it was vividly seen and is now being examined.

She was equally candid about impatience in the group. Even as people were learning to listen to one another, she said, there could be a rumble of impatience beneath a surface of calm listening, and a wish to shake someone and say, in effect, stop theorizing and look. Packer noted that this wish itself carries a criticism. Her response was not to scold but to offer a kind of wake-up call: look at what is happening now, listen to the sounds, notice what is going on inside. Can there be an immediate touch with that? If so, the conversation stops being about who is right and starts being about what is here.

What does idiosyncrasy actually mean?

This is where the talk turns on its single word. Packer had been thinking about how each person uses the mind, and about the thought patterns that appear so consistent and so personal. She called these our idiosyncrasies. Then she reported that she had looked up the word while walking. In Webster's, she said, the meaning is "one's own peculiar mixture." The dictionary, in other words, places mixing at the center of the idea.

"What is it that is peculiarly mixed in each human being, part of the whole?" — Toni Packer, Springwater Center retreat talk, February 1995

That question carries the whole argument. A human being is not a separate container holding a self. Each person is a particular blend of inherited tendencies, experiences, conditioning and attention, and the blend is always particular. Packer asked the group to consider whether this was merely a theory or whether it could be directly seen. When people sit together, as the group had sat the day before, eight or nine of them, each with a slightly different feeling or opinion, can one see "one consciousness manifesting in all kinds of different expressions"? She suggested that the separation we feel is real as a felt experience, but that the peculiar mixing in each person is an expression of something whole, a seemingly infinite consciousness with infinite possibilities.

Is there one truth, or billions of truths?

The talk's central puzzle came from an ordinary situation. One participant described long-standing arguments with a friend, and the near impossibility of getting together because each of them perceived things differently and each felt that their own view was the truth. Packer took the question seriously. If every person insists that their way of perceiving is the true way, then there are as many truths as there are people. She pushed the arithmetic: with billions of inhabitants, the count would be billions of truths, because each perceiver sees things slightly differently depending on where they sit.

She drew on the body to make the point concrete. Medical science depends on the fact that bodies function in similar ways. Without that similarity there would be no physiology and no medicine. Yet, as she recalled, no two organisms are completely alike. She described this as an astonishing fact, noting that the odds of two being exactly alike are beyond comprehension. The body is similar enough for science to be possible, and different enough that no two are identical.

Experience works the same way. Each person has had different experiences, sometimes very similar ones, but never completely the same. Packer gave a simple image. Two people look in different directions at the same moment and see different things. Two twins walking down a street may witness an accident, and one of them is struck by it while the other barely registers it. Their looks differ, people react to them differently, and they react to themselves differently. No two organisms have grown up alike, and so no two people are identical in what they perceive at this moment, in this room.

"If we insist that what I see or hear or say or remember is the truth, we can't get together because it's not true." — Toni Packer, Springwater Center retreat talk, February 1995

That line is the hinge of the talk. Packer was not saying that perception is worthless or that people should stop talking. She acknowledged that people argue this way all the time. Her claim was narrower: arguing from insistence that one's own perception is the truth is not a way of arriving at truth. What we see may not be comparable, because each perception varies with the body and the experiences that produced it. Argument of this kind settles nothing, because both sides are standing on a different floor.

How can differences stop dividing us?

Packer framed the underlying question as one she was asking the group, and the description of the talk puts it plainly: how can human beings live in harmony without letting their differences divide them? Her answer, as the talk develops, does not require anyone to become alike. It asks for a different quality of attention. If there is, in this moment, a listening, an in-touchness with what is here that is not filtered by our preferences and idiosyncrasies, then something like wholeness and directness of seeing and being becomes possible. The difference between people remains. What changes is the relationship to it. Each person can notice the shape conditioning has taken in their own perception, and can see it clearly without needing to defend it as the only truth.

That shift is the practical heart of the talk. It moves the question from "who is right?" to "what am I seeing, and how is my own mixture shaping it?" That question can be asked silently, during an argument, before a sentence is finished. It is a small act, and Packer's view was that the small act is where directness begins.

Where to go from here

This talk is one of many recorded by Toni Packer, who founded the organization that became Springwater Center and served as its resident teacher for many years. Born in Germany in 1927, she lived most of her adult life in Western New York, began leading retreats in the United States and Europe in 1976, and continued teaching through ill health in her later years. She left us in August 2013. Her books include Seeing Without Knowing / What is Meditative Inquiry, The Work of This Moment, The Light of Discovery, The Wonder of Presence and The Silent Question.

Springwater Center continues to offer silent meditation retreats on 220 acres of country land with streams, meadows, forests, a pond and miles of walking trails. The retreats are built around silent awareness, with an optional daily schedule of meditation, talks, meetings with teachers and group meetings. There are no rituals, required beliefs or assigned practices. For a reader who wants to test Packer's ideas rather than just read them, the most useful starting point is the one she gave the group: the next time a disagreement hardens into a claim of truth, look directly at what is happening, listen to what is heard, and notice how much of what is being defended is a peculiar mixture.

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Transcript

[0:04] this is day six of the February 9570

[0:09] retreat in spring water

[0:44] two things that have come up in meetings

[0:58] one is that even though there is this

[1:02] great common asst of history earth

[1:12] history star history common history

[1:16] evolution the salt water we share the

[1:26] electrochemical processes even there's

[1:29] all of the similarity or shared pneus

[1:32] common asst each human mind is so

[1:38] different from another such different

[1:42] lines and as example it was given the

[1:51] intellectual mind of the PhD the way

[1:57] that mind works in thinking analyzing

[2:02] and the poetic mind

[2:10] and we can we can add the musical mind

[2:13] the mind of the artist of the dancer of

[2:18] the businessman a woman of the person

[2:25] drawn to spiritual pursuits the psychic

[2:31] person with occult powers or tendencies

[2:35] of we could go on and on and on listing

[2:38] all these different aspects of human

[2:41] consciousness manifesting in human

[2:45] beings

[2:57] and whatever manifests for the time

[3:01] being it may be different tomorrow also

[3:03] those characteristics can change they

[3:07] are not carved in stone as it were I can

[3:11] tell us from my own experience

[3:17] non-scientific mind or scientific mind

[3:20] intellectual bend or a a bend for poetry

[3:24] and directness and intimacy this can all

[3:27] change within one human being although

[3:31] usually there are characteristics

[3:39] outstanding characteristics of one human

[3:43] mind more scientific more poetical more

[3:47] direct more indirect and and so forth

[3:49] and it's amazing to to contact to be in

[3:57] touch with without preference without

[4:03] judgement and to watch the evaluating

[4:07] mind at work wishing this person was

[4:09] more scientific or less scientific more

[4:14] artistic or not so bohemian judging

[4:20] judging judging rather than the

[4:24] effulgence of a variety of

[4:27] manifestations in human beings like you

[4:31] and me and not cast from birth to death

[4:35] in one mold it can change with changing

[4:39] interest changing insights or changing

[4:42] experience when we find oneself uttering

[4:49] something poetic and never thought that

[4:52] one was at all poetic minded or be very

[5:00] factual because suddenly there is a

[5:02] directness of contact and out of a

[5:07] directness of seeing come

[5:10] words which are very factual and clear

[5:14] and not fuzzy or remote like just

[5:19] thinking about something

[5:28] so this this meeting are this discussion

[5:32] in a meeting came out of what was said

[5:34] yesterday in a talk about discussions

[5:38] being at times too intellectual somebody

[5:41] being too intellectual and it's

[5:48] worthwhile to look at what we mean when

[5:50] we say that look at ourselves as we talk

[5:56] if that's possible and the beginning it

[5:59] may be very difficult to hear what one

[6:01] is saying and examine it not

[6:03] analytically but immediately directly

[6:06] hear it whether what one is saying comes

[6:09] out of thinking in memory and

[6:11] constructing theoretically or out of

[6:15] looking at something directly and the

[6:18] words arising to describe what it what

[6:22] it is that is being looked at or

[6:24] questioned directly so in that case it's

[6:31] not so much is the mind intellectually

[6:34] bend or direct but is there at this

[6:37] moment some immediacy of looking and

[6:40] questioning if that is there then the

[6:44] most intellectual aloof mind will supply

[6:48] words to describe what a scene directly

[6:51] right now or touched felt heard

[6:57] discovered

[7:03] so sometimes the complaint things are so

[7:06] intellectual in this meeting or that is

[7:08] really maybe a complaint about a lack of

[7:13] directness a lack of in touch pneus with

[7:16] direct experience as one sees it right

[7:21] now or remembers vividly having seen it

[7:24] and looking at that rather than just

[7:28] thinking theoretically from what one has

[7:31] read or learned and books or heard other

[7:34] people say and there me one may

[7:39] encounter in meetings here at this place

[7:41] some impatience although although I feel

[7:45] we're getting better and listening to

[7:47] each other even in patients may be a

[7:49] rumbling underneath the spread of

[7:52] patients on top one is one has learned

[7:58] it is something very beautiful and an

[8:01] opening and calming and listening even

[8:05] if one would like to shake that person

[8:08] and say say something direct don't just

[8:14] theorize or philosophize kasmin also may

[8:20] notice that this already implies a

[8:24] criticism maybe not maybe it doesn't

[8:28] imply tritter season at all or knows

[8:30] that state of mind where when can't get

[8:33] out of these entangling ideas one knows

[8:38] it very well and maybe it's helpful when

[8:41] somebody wix1 up wake up call to be

[8:46] direct look at what's happening right

[8:48] now listen to what's what's heard the

[8:51] sounds or whatever is going on in

[8:54] oneself can there be an immediate touch

[9:17] the little violet ago I said we all have

[9:21] our own peculiar characteristics of

[9:26] using this mind or the mind using itself

[9:30] thought patterns ways of thinking are as

[9:35] we see idiosyncratic these are our

[9:38] idiosyncrasies the way we think and I

[9:46] just looked up the word is your sink

[9:48] rocee during during the walking and

[9:53] amazingly it says it is one's own

[9:56] peculiar mixture that's what the word in

[10:00] the dictionary in Webster's dictionary

[10:03] has a meaning one's own peculiar mixture

[10:07] the word mixing is in there and what is

[10:10] it that is peculiarly mixed in each

[10:13] human being

[10:21] part of the whole is that theoretical or

[10:25] can there be a directness of see that

[10:29] when when we're sitting we sit together

[10:32] like yesterday eight or nine of us in a

[10:34] group meeting as there was one

[10:39] consciousness manifesting in all kinds

[10:42] of different expressions everyone having

[10:46] a little bit of difference land or

[10:48] opinion or feeling or experience but

[10:53] when fails to see the separation rather

[11:01] this peculiar mixing in each main of the

[11:04] hall of possibilities of this seemingly

[11:09] infinite consciousness with infinite

[11:12] possibilities

[11:26] so with that we come to a question that

[11:29] did occupy the group yesterday often on

[11:34] it with surfers and then go under again

[11:35] an indifferent topics or tangents and

[11:43] that was what is the truth the person

[11:47] related having arguments or discussions

[11:52] with a friend of many years and often

[11:55] the impossibility of getting together

[11:57] each one perceived things differently

[12:00] and felt this was the truth the way I

[12:03] perceive it is that the true way and

[12:07] then really wondering what is the truth

[12:14] is there truth are there all these many

[12:17] individual truths how many inhabitants

[12:20] are we now on this earth billions

[12:21] billion truths because each one

[12:27] perceiving things slightly differently

[12:32] already depending on where we sit here

[12:35] looking straight ahead each one of us

[12:37] sees something different each body and

[12:43] this is what medical science tells us is

[12:47] different there even though there are so

[12:50] much alike in their functioning that

[12:52] science is possible medical science

[12:55] physiology and so forth yet there are

[12:57] not two organisms that are completely

[13:01] alike it's amazing amazing fact to

[13:07] perceive given if I recall right with

[13:12] the odds of two being Liars or

[13:14] everything is possible but the odds are

[13:17] beyond comprehension the two organisms

[13:22] are absolutely directly alike

[13:28] so not the particular physical organism

[13:37] completely like any other having its own

[13:39] idiosyncrasies on private put peculiar

[13:43] mixtures certainly as far as experience

[13:50] goals each one of us had had has had

[13:52] different experiences although at times

[13:55] very similar but not completely alike at

[13:59] the time I looked to the left and saw

[14:02] something you look to the right and saw

[14:05] something else walking down the street

[14:11] with twins on each hand one may see an

[14:14] accident the other Lord an accident

[14:19] happening which immediately impacts that

[14:22] mind and not that mind of the other twin

[14:34] our looks not being alike people react

[14:37] to us differently we react to ourselves

[14:39] I don't have to go into it in great

[14:42] detail I think we can all agree on the

[14:47] fact that no two organisms have grown up

[14:54] alike and find themselves completely

[15:00] identical right now here in this hall

[15:03] for instance so that as we begin to

[15:10] discuss maybe argue produce opinions or

[15:16] look at something out of our past

[15:20] experiences we cannot agree upon what is

[15:27] quote unquote true because each

[15:32] perception will vary from the other

[15:36] because the geosync ratting body and

[15:41] experiences vary from one person to

[15:44] another

[15:53] so what we see may not be comparable and

[16:00] we cannot agree on it if we insist that

[16:03] what I see or hear or say or remember is

[16:07] the truth we can't get together because

[16:12] it's not true it's impossible to argue

[16:16] this way I mean it's possible we argue

[16:18] this way all the time but this is not a

[16:21] way of arriving at truth which we

[16:25] haven't even defined yet what we mean by

[16:27] that it's a very tricky business to even

[16:30] get into it and yet sort of resonated

[16:39] with one person who brought this up what

[16:41] is the truth is there a truth and the

[16:45] despair of not being able to get

[16:47] together and agree

[16:55] of course you could say it just occurs

[16:58] right now the fact that we're both

[17:00] arguing with each other is the truth

[17:05] meaning I look that up to it says truth

[17:13] in accordance with reality according to

[17:18] reality

[17:32] so where is the step taken from

[17:41] arguing presenting what I perceive as

[17:44] the truth to seeing truth as it really

[17:50] is not according to my experiences which

[17:59] can never be the same from yours because

[18:02] we can see that that we all have

[18:04] different experiences that we all have

[18:06] slightly different bodies because we

[18:09] can't see it we believe that the book

[18:11] the textbook that says that is telling

[18:13] us the truth that it is really so if we

[18:22] indeed come upon which should come upon

[18:26] this is hypothetical to completely

[18:29] identical human beings then it wouldn't

[18:32] be true anymore so whatever we consider

[18:36] to be true in this way of thinking and

[18:40] expressing always needs to be open to

[18:46] rejection to be proven false or show not

[18:51] to be so so let's say something very

[18:54] important than that's what scientific

[19:00] theory teaches a scientific theory in

[19:03] its best at its best that every

[19:06] statement needs to be in danger of being

[19:08] proven false well we'll use it for the

[19:12] time being but it may not be holding

[19:18] tomorrow tomorrow it may be proven false

[19:22] with new instruments new ways of looking

[19:27] new discoveries which never which we

[19:30] never saw before

[19:37] so that would be neat together if one

[19:40] talks and discusses can everything one

[19:44] says be in danger of being proven false

[19:48] or not quite right to be open to that

[19:54] this is what what good scientific

[19:57] research is based on this flowering on

[20:00] as far as it can go

[20:13] but we haven't come yet to this

[20:18] fundamental question whether there is

[20:20] truth or what is truth because just to

[20:26] say it is it is that which accords with

[20:29] reality can be tricky because what is

[20:34] reality what we see you see it different

[20:42] from me I'm colorblind you're not at all

[20:45] we're all sitting on that balcony

[20:47] watching through those beautiful windows

[20:50] and sunny landscape snow swirling around

[20:53] let's say all of us fairly open not not

[20:57] holding on to particular opinions or

[20:59] prejudices open it is not trying to

[21:04] prove something to be somebody that's a

[21:08] tease it's in abeyance right now the

[21:11] mind openly present the body mind

[21:21] well one may watch the birds another one

[21:25] may watch the clouds or the blinking of

[21:29] the snow the bending of the tree I'm AC

[21:34] broken parts in the tree maybe a thought

[21:39] arising how long will this tree live

[21:41] before it breaks up maybe another

[21:45] thought maybe it should be broken down

[21:53] so are we all perceiving the same I'm

[21:58] farsighted you're near-sighted somebody

[22:02] else may be blind and it were all

[22:05] sitting there openly watching

[22:11] short-sighted Lee farsighted Lee or no

[22:13] side being present and it doesn't matter

[22:22] what each one of us sees the words or

[22:25] the branches for clouds the broken off

[22:30] branches distant hills or close railing

[22:38] that doesn't matter what matters in

[22:44] common asst in non division is this

[22:47] openness of seeing if that's there for

[22:50] you and me and you and him and her the

[22:59] openness of being without reliance on

[23:02] past experience it doesn't come into

[23:05] into into vision right now it's in

[23:08] abeyance peaceful quiet doesn't matter

[23:15] there's no motive to be a good sear

[23:19] thats quiet or to become enlightened

[23:23] maybe tomorrow maybe by the end of the

[23:26] day thats quiet it's not stirring just

[23:31] being without being someone without

[23:39] being someone in need of becoming

[23:41] someone or something that's all quiet

[23:54] does it matter what it is that is seen

[23:56] or heard or experienced a gurgling

[23:59] stomach or two full stomach or two empty

[24:03] stomach it's there as the cloud the

[24:12] birds the grass the snowflakes it's all

[24:15] everything is there and need not be

[24:20] otherwise need not be better or worse

[24:23] need not be related to in any verbal

[24:28] habitual way and by that I mean that our

[24:32] habitual way of bringing ourselves into

[24:34] connection with what we see the self

[24:38] reference I see it well I don't see it

[24:42] well enough I feel this should be so and

[24:45] so or such and such thats quiet it can

[24:49] be quiet believe it or not don't have to

[24:52] believe it it's it happens to human

[24:55] beings like you and me and it has

[24:57] happened to people here all by itself

[25:00] without any striving for it at the

[25:02] moment it happens this openness of pure

[25:07] being

[25:15] check the truth

[25:21] or is that extra to call it something

[25:23] more every word put to it is not the

[25:30] real thing and yet in such a beingness

[25:39] we can talk with each other very freely

[25:42] and realize it's true that experience

[25:47] colors our perceptions we can agree on

[25:50] the truth of that because we can see it

[25:52] as we're discussing out of this freedom

[25:57] of being without needing to be somebody

[26:04] we can come and touch with a peculiar

[26:07] mixture that's our perceptions and brain

[26:12] function in terms of poetic or

[26:18] intellectual abilities

[26:26] can we see together out of such a state

[26:31] of pure being what is condition see the

[26:38] truth of conditioning that holds for all

[26:42] of us in our daily moment a moment

[26:44] negotiating

[26:54] the way we think the way we react with

[26:57] anger or pain or hurt or Thea can-can

[27:01] out of a state of pure being emerged

[27:06] what is conditioning can see it clearly

[27:09] yes this is this is condition one can

[27:13] feel the narrowing down that happens

[27:17] when the ayah rears its head fields it

[27:24] hurts shivers with fear or confused to

[27:32] see that this is conditioning and what

[27:35] particular idiosyncratic shape it takes

[27:38] for you and me doesn't really matter

[27:40] it's all one conditioning

[27:50] as one organism one earth one galaxy one

[27:58] universe all hanging together

[28:01] inseparably

[28:30] so in in listening right now this moment

[28:34] I don't know exactly what you hear never

[28:39] heard with any other ears and easier but

[28:49] when the listening is free from this

[28:53] confining sense of me then there is no

[28:57] me and you it's only listening now any

[29:04] sense of separation

[31:01] we will end here for today

[31:14] you

Springwater Center
ArtistSpringwater Center

Springwater Center sits on 212 acres of meadow, forest and pond an hour south of Rochester, New York. Founded by Toni Packer after she left a Zen centre she found too hierarchical,…

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In this 1995 talk, Packer said she looked up the word on a walk and found that Webster's defines it as one's own peculiar mixture. She used it to describe the distinctive thought patterns and ways of thinking that each person carries, which she saw as a blend rather than a fixed self.
Packer argued that no two organisms are completely alike and that each person's perceptions and experiences differ, so what each sees may not be comparable. She said that insisting one's own perception is the truth prevents people from getting together, because both sides are working from different starting points.
No. She said that characteristics such as being more scientific or more poetic are not carved in stone and can change within one person as interests, insights and experience change. She also noted that most people have outstanding tendencies, but these are passing shapes rather than permanent molds.
Packer suggested that the question is not whether a mind is intellectual by nature but whether there is immediacy of looking and questioning right now. When that immediacy is present, even an abstract mind will describe what it directly sees, while without it words come from memory and theory.
Packer asked this question directly and suggested that harmony does not require sameness. It depends on a listening and in-touchness with what is here, unfiltered by preferences and judgments, which lets people notice how their own conditioning shapes perception without defending it as the only truth.
Toni Packer was born in Germany in 1927 and lived most of her adult life in Western New York. She founded the organization that became Springwater Center, served as its resident teacher, began leading retreats in 1976, and left us in August 2013. Springwater Center continues to offer silent meditation retreats on 220 acres of land.

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