Transcript
[0:01] Dear listeners, welcome to this latest
[0:03] episode of the podcast The Way Out is
[0:06] In.
[0:11] [music]
[0:20] [music]
[0:21] This is not the normal episode you would
[0:24] expect, but it is a recording done at
[0:27] Harvard University with brother Fapu Nya
[0:31] who is a core member of the community
[0:34] and a spiritual sister to Fapu and also
[0:37] the great author ocean. And it's a
[0:40] conversation about what it means to be
[0:43] Vietnamese in this moment. not how to
[0:46] replicate what existed in Vietnam many
[0:49] years ago, but what it means to be an
[0:53] immigrant, what it means to be
[0:55] Vietnamese in this current world. It's a
[0:58] very deep conversation and also it's not
[1:00] just about Vietnam or being Vietnamese.
[1:03] It's actually can speak to all of us
[1:05] because in some sense we are all
[1:09] refugees, immigrants. We're all trying
[1:12] to find our way in the world. We're all
[1:14] finding new ways of being. So, we really
[1:17] hope you enjoy this rather wonderful,
[1:21] deep, joyful conversation about what it
[1:25] means to be a Vietnamese person today in
[1:31] the West.
[1:40] >> [music]
[1:43] >> The way out is in. [music]
[1:58] Let us all find our breath.
[2:02] Become aware of our whole body.
[2:06] Allow our shoulders to drop.
[2:10] our arms to relax,
[2:13] our hands to be rested.
[2:16] Let us bring our awareness to our inb
[2:20] breath and outreath
[2:23] identifying it just as it is.
[2:27] This is inbreath.
[2:30] This is outreath.
[2:57] Now let us breathe in deeper
[3:01] and breathe out longer and slower.
[3:06] As I breathe in, I fully take refuge in
[3:10] my inb breath.
[3:12] As I breathe out,
[3:15] I fully take refuge in my outbreath,
[3:20] inbreath and outreath.
[3:51] Breathing in. I am aware of my whole
[3:54] body.
[3:57] Breathing out.
[3:59] I give permission
[4:01] to just be just rest
[4:07] in
[4:09] aware of this body
[4:12] out
[4:14] resting. Okay.
[4:38] Breathing in. I see this body is not
[4:41] mine alone.
[4:44] It is a continuation
[4:46] of my ancestors,
[4:49] my spiritual ancestors,
[4:52] and of this whole planet, the cosmos.
[4:57] Breathing out,
[4:59] I am a continuation.
[5:04] In.
[5:07] No separation.
[5:11] Out.
[5:12] Continuation.
[5:38] Breathing in. I invite my teacher to
[5:41] breathe in with my lungs
[5:44] and sit with my back.
[5:48] Breathing out.
[5:51] He is in me
[5:54] and I am in him.
[6:00] Thai breathe with my lungs.
[6:04] Sit with my back.
[6:09] You are here
[6:23] with body, speech, and mind in perfect
[6:27] oneness.
[6:28] I send my heart along with the sound of
[6:32] this bell.
[6:34] May all those who hear it, even in the
[6:37] darkest places,
[6:40] may they wake up and walk the path of
[6:43] transformation and healing.
[6:54] [bell and music]
[6:59] >> [bell]
[7:02] [music]
[7:16] [bell]
[7:18] [music]
[7:32] [bell]
[7:38] [bell]
[8:03] >> Thank you, brother Papu, for that um
[8:05] really grounding and beautiful
[8:08] uh guided meditation.
[8:12] I was uh as I was making my way over
[8:15] here, I was like, what are we going to
[8:16] talk about? But mostly I was worried
[8:18] because I was late and so I was sort of
[8:21] running over here. And then um but as I
[8:25] came over this way, I saw your head pop
[8:28] up in the window. I was like, "Oh, I'm
[8:31] home. It's here." And uh I stepped in
[8:35] and as soon as I stepped in Ocean is
[8:38] like this is this is one of the
[8:40] preserved classrooms
[8:42] because Radcliffe uh is used to be a
[8:44] woman's college and sort of was telling
[8:47] immediately the history of of this of
[8:49] this space and in that moment
[8:53] really quickly I remember Tai and also
[8:56] other writers always saying like
[8:58] whenever you step into a room bring your
[9:00] your ancestors with you. File them in.
[9:03] Yeah, my Angela file in your answers
[9:05] with you and you walk in with a lot of
[9:09] um integrity and pride and and just hold
[9:14] yourself as if you're holding all of
[9:15] your ancestors with you. And this year
[9:21] on October 11th would be TA's our
[9:24] collective thigh
[9:27] 100th uh continuation year. And uh we're
[9:32] we
[9:34] and we find ourselves together in this
[9:36] place in this time almost
[9:40] by the hands of the ancestors bringing
[9:42] us together. Um, this conversation we
[9:46] had, I think, didn't begin, you know,
[9:48] after the meditation, but it began, I
[9:52] think, a few years ago when we first all
[9:55] just hung out together at Ocean's home
[9:59] in Western Massachusetts.
[10:01] And the conversation was so alive and so
[10:07] light and so free where we were just
[10:09] talking about our Vietnamese.
[10:13] We're talking about being children of
[10:16] refugees, being refugees oursel. What
[10:19] does it mean to be Vietnamese? And what
[10:21] does it mean to live that hyphenated
[10:23] life, right? You're just somewhere
[10:25] caught in the in between or or in that
[10:29] liinal space of of being and the both
[10:33] the beauties of it and the limitations
[10:35] of of being in that liinal space.
[10:39] We talked about video games. We talked
[10:42] about going to temple and what it meant
[10:44] and and this conversation I think is a
[10:48] is a continuation of that conversation.
[10:51] But I feel like we should get get into
[10:53] it and really get into what does it mean
[10:59] to each of us to be
[11:02] that hyphenated Vietnamese?
[11:06] um to be a child of refugees,
[11:10] to be a refugee yourself,
[11:13] and
[11:14] how that has informed the way that we
[11:17] think of what is rightfully our
[11:20] inheritance as a culture
[11:23] and how we think about how we continue
[11:26] our parents and our and our teachers.
[11:31] Um
[11:33] yeah, I I'm I love how everything
[11:36] happened so organically with our with
[11:38] our meeting and how auspicious
[11:41] um to arrive at TA's 100
[11:44] continuation anniversary. Um a Libra,
[11:49] who would have guessed, of course,
[11:51] right? Um the only sign that is not
[11:54] after organic matter
[11:57] the scale you know no everything else is
[12:00] an animal or being and this is um a
[12:04] fabricated sign a sign that comes from
[12:07] the world that comes from intention you
[12:10] know Taurus Cancer these are all organic
[12:13] beings and the Libra is a sign that
[12:16] someone had to make and the make was to
[12:18] create order and balance and to judge
[12:21] make judgment and discernment.
[12:24] And that actually is a wonderful segue
[12:28] into this idea of of what is
[12:31] um Vietnamese identity beyond Vietnam.
[12:34] And I think that's something that
[12:37] it's up to us to make it. And right now
[12:41] there's no space for it. So we we
[12:46] are you know the 1.5
[12:49] second generation are the generation
[12:51] that then comes I mean we're sitting at
[12:53] Harvard.
[12:55] I don't know any Vietnamese person in my
[12:58] life that has sat at Harvard before
[13:01] having a conversation about Vietnamese
[13:03] life. Most of my family have never been
[13:08] in a university unless it's to visit me.
[13:11] So we get to we get to um launch a
[13:16] beautiful imperfect inquiry
[13:20] into what this is and what it can be.
[13:23] And I think for me the most fruitful
[13:25] position is to acknowledge that it can
[13:27] never be what Vietnam was or is. It can
[13:31] also never be what America was or is.
[13:36] And the the struggle is that we are in a
[13:39] third space but the third space cannot
[13:42] be seen.
[13:44] We are standing
[13:47] in a third identity as immigrants and
[13:51] refugees which means that our Vietnamese
[13:54] is not beholden to the mainlands.
[13:57] It is not um quote unquote perfect to
[14:01] the mainland. Some of us like my cousins
[14:03] don't have Vietnamese at all. Are they
[14:06] any less?
[14:08] Is my beautiful f friend poet Huawin
[14:13] any less Vietnamese?
[14:15] Hua by the way insisting that she
[14:17] pronounces her last name Wyn because
[14:20] it's difficult for her to say wing and
[14:22] so for her it's win is she any less. Um
[14:27] so I think so far
[14:30] the critical framework
[14:33] has borrowed
[14:35] western puritanical binaries to judge us
[14:39] and we have also let's admit it borrowed
[14:42] that binary. Academia loves that binary
[14:47] black and white. So for lack of of a
[14:52] legacy of developing it we have borrowed
[14:54] it. We borrow the view that white
[14:58] academia often force on us which is east
[15:01] meets west and I think it's important to
[15:04] reject all of that and borrow from black
[15:07] thinkers for example Edward Gisson who
[15:11] says after the middle passage into the
[15:14] Caribbean
[15:16] without being able to trace at least we
[15:18] are able to point to Vietnam and say
[15:20] there is a place
[15:22] there is a way but For some of these
[15:26] black thinkers coming out of the middle
[15:27] passage, they cannot point to a specific
[15:29] place. And so Gisson says, well, maybe
[15:33] the idea of origin is a western fantasy.
[15:38] And he says that the Arowaks, the
[15:42] indigenous communities in the Caribbean
[15:44] move nomatically.
[15:47] They move according to the seasons and
[15:49] the weather. and they don't see an
[15:52] origin as a pure genesis the way the
[15:55] west does. Gissant even says that
[15:58] colonialism works moves very
[16:00] antithetically to nomat nomatic tribes
[16:04] in that it moves like an arrow.
[16:07] It flies out of the instrument and must
[16:09] go only one way and usually it lands at
[16:12] death.
[16:14] And I think we have an opportunity to to
[16:16] borrow from those thinkers and Gisson
[16:20] helpfully says there is a creoleization
[16:24] to the refugee to the immigrant that
[16:27] culture is not
[16:29] the fantasy of purity or origin but the
[16:32] creation of the present a total
[16:36] mosaic
[16:38] complicated contradictory present. And I
[16:40] think that's what I want for us.
[16:43] I really want us to be able to look at
[16:46] Vietnamese identity in the diaspora and
[16:49] say this is a something else.
[16:52] It started somewhere, but now it's
[16:54] something else. It is not beholden.
[16:58] You know, it would be incorrect to look
[17:00] at a 17-year-old Vietnamese kid in
[17:03] America and say, "You're not saying
[17:08] my right."
[17:11] I was at the temple
[17:14] uh last year and
[17:17] there was a 11 12 year old girl her mom
[17:20] passed away and we're doing the ceremony
[17:22] the 49 days the bin guy [snorts]
[17:26] and she you can tell she doesn't speak
[17:30] Vietnamese often with her mother. She's
[17:32] probably speaking English but the
[17:33] aunties are like you're speaking
[17:35] Vietnamese here.
[17:37] So she tries to say ma
[17:41] And maybe because she's thinking of the
[17:43] English ma.
[17:46] Hey, ma. Right.
[17:49] And she's crying. And so she's trying to
[17:52] say, "Mom, where are you? Mom, I'm
[17:55] here." Cuz the auntie is like, "Speak to
[17:56] your mom. She's around." You know, she's
[17:59] still here. In the beautiful 49day
[18:01] tradition.
[18:03] And I'm there in the back and I'm
[18:06] listening in this ceremony. And then she
[18:08] starts saying
[18:10] ma
[18:12] mroy.
[18:15] It breaks my heart. But compounded in
[18:20] into a third space
[18:23] linguistically we are her error. The
[18:26] fancy word for this is catacresis.
[18:29] [snorts]
[18:30] Her error in pronunciation makes her to
[18:34] start saying ghost where are you? And
[18:37] I'm like, damn, that's more accurate
[18:41] [laughter] than I'm like, girl. I'm now
[18:44] I'm like crying. I'm like I'm like,
[18:47] that's right.
[18:52] [gasps]
[18:53] >> And I'm say, oh, you know what? That
[18:58] mistake, quote unquote, would never
[19:00] happen in Vietnam.
[19:02] that mistake is made possible by the
[19:06] refugee experience.
[19:08] >> So the old argument would say, "Oh,
[19:12] you're wrong. Get it right." But my work
[19:15] and my thinking is like, "No, no, no,
[19:17] no. That's so special."
[19:20] inside the fact that we are in
[19:22] Bridgeport, Connecticut, inside an old
[19:26] post office
[19:28] turned into a temple.
[19:31] An 11year-old girl is trying to say,
[19:33] "Mom, where are you?" And she ends up
[19:35] saying, "Ghost, where are you?"
[19:38] The diaspora is inside that sentence.
[19:42] >> That is a speciallymade thing. And
[19:45] there's no place for it. There's no
[19:49] infrastructure or institution for it. It
[19:52] can only be read as an error. And yet to
[19:55] me the error is everything. It is the
[19:59] creoleization of that moment. And I'm
[20:01] like, wow, she's discovering
[20:04] to me to a double layer whether she
[20:07] intended it or not. And I'm like, that's
[20:10] it. In my heart, I was like, that's the
[20:14] diaspora. that moment right there trying
[20:17] to say mom and you end up saying ghost.
[20:20] [laughter]
[20:24] >> Thank you everyone for for being here
[20:27] and and going deep into this space. Um,
[20:30] it brings me to this moment I had with
[20:32] Tai in 2012 and we're in Hong Kong
[20:36] leading a retreat and um,
[20:40] Tai just looked at me and he said,
[20:43] "Tai has renewed Buddhism 60%.
[20:47] >> 40% I leave it to all of you."
[20:50] And I was a little bit shocked because I
[20:53] thought Tai was being humbled because
[20:55] I'm like, Plum Village is so cool. It's
[20:58] like it's not very tempo traditional and
[21:02] I wouldn't even be a monk if it wasn't
[21:04] for the renewal of of Buddhism and and I
[21:09] can understand everything that you're
[21:10] teaching me. But he he looked at me with
[21:13] deep eyes and he said, "No, no, there's
[21:15] still so much to do because um we have
[21:19] to
[21:22] translate and we have to find a way that
[21:25] the teachings and the culture still
[21:28] stays intact but at the same time be
[21:31] accessible for everyone." And this has
[21:34] been my own journey of like
[21:36] understanding what does it mean to honor
[21:39] my Vietnamese roots but also dance in
[21:43] the third space where I'm not going to
[21:45] pretend to know how to chant like a
[21:48] traditional monk. I'm all my chanting is
[21:51] in English and all of my thinking is in
[21:54] English, but then I can always like
[21:56] return to then the depths of the the the
[22:00] Vietnamese language where is so much
[22:02] deeper in some spaces and where I'm at
[22:07] now like sitting here with everyone in
[22:09] the space and
[22:11] having this opportunity to reflect
[22:15] um what's what's coming up for me
[22:19] is that our our journey my journey I'm
[22:23] going to speak for me my journey
[22:26] is a journey of also honoring the
[22:29] sacrifices that my parents have given me
[22:32] and before it was a burden but now it's
[22:35] more becoming like um
[22:38] a source of of incredible energy that
[22:42] they have given me permission to be
[22:45] something so different that that that
[22:47] what they couldn't even imagine and then
[22:50] connecting to Thai which is a refugee
[22:54] and a refugee not by choice but by
[22:56] conditions and have found a way to be at
[23:01] home wherever he went and I think in
[23:05] spiritually like for me
[23:09] the word home is is a is a very big word
[23:12] va to arrive at home to come home and
[23:15] the first dharmas The seal of our
[23:17] practice is I have arrived. I am home.
[23:21] And arrive here means to be with oneself
[23:25] and not to be feeling disconnected from
[23:29] who you are. And the question who you
[23:31] are is also a very deep question because
[23:36] I also agree I I cannot just say I'm
[23:38] Vietnamese because I'm also Canadian and
[23:41] I'm also French now because I've lived
[23:44] there for 20 years. Um, and I'm also
[23:47] very international or I'm not myself
[23:50] even
[23:51] because I have listened I have learned
[23:53] from so many great human beings that
[23:56] this journey is not mine alone.
[23:59] But it is at the same time
[24:02] so important to also just embrace
[24:06] the beauty that I never knew I could say
[24:10] as a Vietnamese person. like
[24:14] we are so resilient like we know how to
[24:19] call and I think that's both a flower
[24:22] and both a healing that needs to be done
[24:24] and means we can we can work hard we can
[24:29] go through so much suffering we can bend
[24:33] our backs in order to succeed which is a
[24:38] response from colonialism response to
[24:41] war, response to survival.
[24:43] And it has also been a way for us to
[24:46] then embrace
[24:48] our suffering, our pains much more
[24:51] stubbornly. And I think now
[24:54] I want to hear from all of us like how
[24:56] are we healing this as well as how is it
[24:59] empowering us to take our ancestors pain
[25:04] and suffering
[25:06] and to honor their pain and suffering at
[25:08] the same time as heal their pain and
[25:11] suffering. This is what I've been
[25:13] meditating on in every action, at every
[25:17] opportunity that I'm able to engage in a
[25:19] retreat, leading, facilitating. Um, and
[25:23] so there's a dance between the healing,
[25:26] the transformation, and the moving
[25:28] forward.
[25:30] You know what what the what both Ocean
[25:33] and Brother Fapu shared uh what you both
[25:36] shared really makes me think of I I
[25:40] really love the language of a fantasy of
[25:42] origin or a fantasy of wholeness and and
[25:47] the idea of
[25:49] the attachment to this notion of
[25:52] perfection, right? And because I think
[25:55] that's, you know, if we're going to
[25:57] bring in some,
[25:59] you know, Buddhist language, excuse me
[26:02] for that, but like, you know, if we're
[26:03] going to bring in some Buddhist
[26:04] language, that is those binaries of
[26:06] perfection and imperfect are things that
[26:09] people often get caught in on. And
[26:12] that's where we start to have these
[26:15] notions of less than, better than or or
[26:20] enough and not enough. and all of our
[26:22] sort of neurosis start to begin there.
[26:25] And I think that
[26:29] the more I contemplate my own identity
[26:31] as a as a
[26:34] as this person, this being that exists
[26:36] here with the complexity and the
[26:38] multitudes of what I contain and more
[26:40] that I don't even know about. I love and
[26:44] rely on and ride the waves of both
[26:48] imperfection and uncertainty.
[26:51] And I think and I think that
[26:53] imperfection and that uncertainty show
[26:56] shows you fragments of wholeness. But
[26:59] with it it reflects these fragments of
[27:01] who we are reflects this sort of
[27:03] wholeness. But those fragments also
[27:05] allow you a space of creative becoming.
[27:10] And and that for me is like this
[27:12] inheritance that you get both from your
[27:15] roots where we can point to that's my
[27:17] hung over there. Vietnam is Muay Hung
[27:20] and here are my the branches, right? And
[27:23] when I was young, Tai said to me, um, he
[27:28] said, you know, you and I are like,
[27:33] he's like,
[27:44] and it was at that time I was very
[27:48] young, so I always was like, this guy is
[27:50] obsessed with Vietnam. And because I
[27:52] just didn't appreciate it because I was
[27:54] just like, I'm an American and he is
[27:56] forever forcing me to be this Vietnamese
[27:59] person that I'm not. But in fact, now as
[28:02] I get older and I'm thinking more and
[28:04] more about it, I think he's giving me
[28:06] permission to um to say like, yeah, I
[28:11] have this rooted this place where I I
[28:13] could find my roots and my becoming
[28:16] aren't determined and defined by those
[28:18] roots.
[28:20] And and so when I think about your
[28:22] question, brother Fabu, and I think
[28:23] about what uh what ocean has shared
[28:26] about imperfection and this fantasy of
[28:29] wholeness and origins, I just think how
[28:32] lucky we are that Thai has offered us
[28:34] this practice where
[28:38] there isn't a demand for perfection, but
[28:41] there is a demand for presence
[28:44] and there is a demand for love
[28:47] >> in all of its manifestation. ations and
[28:50] I think that is a thing that starts to
[28:53] that begins to heal because you know in
[28:55] 1997 my first retreat with Tai he came
[28:59] over here and his only retreats were for
[29:01] Vietnamese people and it was and it was
[29:04] targeted for Vietnamese people and young
[29:06] Vietnamese families that were um
[29:09] navigating
[29:11] their life and their identity in this
[29:13] new place. And the practice was for us
[29:17] to be able to embrace who we were
[29:20] because there was a big I don't know I
[29:22] don't know about you guys but when I was
[29:23] growing up I was
[29:26] >> there was a lot of brainwashing in in
[29:28] even in elementary school I remember
[29:30] being told that even though technically
[29:33] we lost the war but you won cuz you're
[29:35] here
[29:37] >> and uh you're not a communist you're not
[29:39] x y and z like there was so much that we
[29:42] were fed that made
[29:45] both
[29:46] explicitly and and and inexplicitly hate
[29:50] our Vietnamese.
[29:52] And I remember one I was put like all
[29:55] the Vietnamese kids were put on display
[29:57] >> and we were made to do a dragon dance
[30:00] and none of us had none of us know how
[30:02] to do dragon dances. Like [laughter] so
[30:04] we had to like drum like someone was
[30:06] like drumming and someone was like
[30:07] holding like dancing in a dragon and
[30:10] like and we felt paraded and like around
[30:14] the school as if like look at these
[30:17] little Vietnamese kids that we got and
[30:19] look what you know the we were we were
[30:22] we were just a sideshow for everyone
[30:25] >> and and we thought this is how we're
[30:27] going to be accepted.
[30:29] But those micro experiences
[30:34] really started feeding into
[30:37] this marginalized identity as being
[30:39] Vietnamese, as being something that was
[30:41] on display for people to look at and to
[30:43] mock. Because I remember the American
[30:46] kids were laughing at us and we were we
[30:48] were forced to sing the um southern
[30:51] Vietnamese national anthem [laughter] in
[30:54] front of the whole school and none of
[30:56] them understood Vietnamese and we didn't
[30:58] understand Vietnamese, right? And so
[31:00] when I encountered
[31:04] the practice,
[31:06] it was a very basic sort of like do you
[31:09] know who you are?
[31:12] And it was a very gentle invitation to
[31:16] start unraveling
[31:19] all the things that I didn't know that
[31:22] all the all the ways in which I was
[31:24] torturing myself by not being able to
[31:28] embrace the fragmentation of who I was
[31:30] as a person because I was chasing after
[31:33] the fantasy of fullness and wholeness
[31:35] and purity. And I'm still doing that
[31:38] today.
[31:40] And the practice has allowed me to slow
[31:43] down and being and and really be like
[31:46] what's going on here actually what am I
[31:48] doing to myself and what am I doing to
[31:50] everyone else around me when I think
[31:52] like this
[31:54] the idea of a process what you're
[31:56] describing that there's grace
[31:59] to me like healing particularly communal
[32:02] healing that comes from an epicenter
[32:06] like the wars of the 60s and 70s and
[32:09] prior there. I mean, Vietnam was at war
[32:11] for nearly a century in the 20th
[32:13] century.
[32:14] And
[32:16] it give, you know, each other grace to
[32:20] not
[32:22] be obliged to follow the purity rules.
[32:26] And I think you're on to something
[32:28] there, N, because the purity rules
[32:31] existed in confusion in flected Vietnam
[32:35] prior to the diaspora. you know those
[32:38] this idea of how to to behave and
[32:41] respectability,
[32:43] >> right?
[32:44] >> Yeah.
[32:48] [gasps]
[32:49] >> And so the shame is something that is
[32:52] generational. It is tied to community,
[32:56] ancestry
[32:58] and deeply patriarchical, right? It's
[33:00] it's all around
[33:03] the dignity of men, you know, and so the
[33:06] dignity of men then controls the
[33:08] behavior, the freedom, and it starts to
[33:11] police the freedoms of everybody around
[33:13] us. And and we are raised by those
[33:16] folks. We raised by women and men who
[33:19] come out of that. And part of what
[33:22] Buddhism taught me is to be able to
[33:26] be
[33:28] brave and ferocious enough. I think like
[33:31] people don't understand how ferocious
[33:36] Buddhist practice demands of you. And I
[33:38] think that's why I love the idea of the
[33:40] the raffle deities because Buddhism has
[33:44] been
[33:45] commodified in the west as um self-help,
[33:51] [snorts] corporate self-help especially,
[33:52] right? Um go calm down so you can answer
[33:56] more emails efficiently
[33:58] >> for the corporation. And I think to me
[34:01] the most like the things that I lean on
[34:03] most every day is
[34:06] Buddhist ideas of
[34:09] committing oneself fully
[34:13] with courage. Courage is very different
[34:16] than fearlessness because fearlessness
[34:17] means there is no fear. There's a lot of
[34:20] fear in me. I don't know about y'all but
[34:22] living in this world a lot of fear. But
[34:25] courage is doing something despite fear.
[34:29] And Buddhism has given me that
[34:33] um set of tools and Tai's you know being
[34:37] Tai's embodiment
[34:40] to walk out of those turmoils
[34:45] and to sit
[34:48] so calmly within oneself
[34:51] is a tremendous power. So I think that's
[34:55] what I think a lot of Westerners don't
[34:56] always understand when they see someone
[34:58] like Tai. They're like, "Wow, what a
[35:00] peaceful monk." And sure, but what I see
[35:03] is that wow, this is an impenetrable
[35:06] force
[35:08] of survival
[35:11] and it feels so strong to me.
[35:15] And I think I think about the Buddha's
[35:18] final teaching on his deathbed,
[35:22] the reclining Buddha, and he says to
[35:25] paraphrase, because all forms will fade,
[35:28] go forth with earnestness.
[35:32] >> And I think that whole sentence is so
[35:34] important because I think it doesn't
[35:37] mean don't have humor or joy. It means
[35:40] that keep in mind that all this will go
[35:43] away. So don't waste your time messing
[35:46] around. And I think that's
[35:50] taught me how to make art, how to teach.
[35:53] You know, I teach with with the the
[35:55] earnest
[35:56] desire to go to the root of it because
[36:00] we don't have time. We don't have time
[36:02] to be cynical or ironic
[36:05] or perform this sort of disassociated
[36:09] I'm cooler than you so I don't care what
[36:12] the kids say. nonchalants.
[36:15] When you're going to die, you don't have
[36:17] time for nonchalants. If your family,
[36:19] your community is going to get wiped
[36:21] away, nonchalants is a privilege most of
[36:24] us cannot afford.
[36:26] And I think the antidote of that is
[36:29] grace to say who are you? I don't know.
[36:34] Let's we will never be at a true
[36:37] arrival,
[36:40] you know, and so the labels will only
[36:42] constrict us further. And I think giving
[36:45] our generation, we get to now cuz let's,
[36:48] you know, our parents and our aunties
[36:51] and uncles went through what they went
[36:53] through. I'm not in the business of
[36:55] trying to correct or reform anybody, you
[36:58] know. I think part of that grace is also
[37:00] like yeah you people have their things.
[37:04] >> Mhm.
[37:05] >> But we get to offer away and that way I
[37:09] think has to begin with rejecting the
[37:12] old confusion models and the American
[37:16] Puritan models of binaries. Who is
[37:19] right? Who is wrong? and rather say who
[37:23] are we
[37:24] >> and whatever you are is who we are if
[37:29] that makes sense right if you're a
[37:31] Vietnamese
[37:32] kid who can't speak the language don't
[37:35] know can't even point to it on the map
[37:38] [laughter] I know some of y'all are out
[37:40] there
[37:43] if you can't even point to Vietnam on
[37:45] the map I want you to know that you are
[37:46] as Vietnamese
[37:48] >> as anybody else
[37:50] >> and Now, not only that, but that
[37:54] lack of knowledge is now indicative and
[37:58] representative of the violence.
[38:01] You know, Sarah Ahmad calls this
[38:03] epistemic violence,
[38:05] the disruption of knowledge systems
[38:08] through geopolitical
[38:10] >> violence, disruption.
[38:12] So, we can joke and say, "Yeah, you
[38:14] don't know where it is." But I'm like,
[38:15] "Well,
[38:17] that wouldn't have happened though
[38:19] without these wars." Mh.
[38:20] >> So you are the result of it. There's no
[38:24] right or wrong. You are what has become
[38:27] of us. And I want you to to be whole in
[38:33] that position.
[39:02] It's so um it's very stimulating
[39:05] [laughter] like this conversation was
[39:06] what bring up for me um the where you
[39:10] say we are who we are because of the
[39:13] past and also who we could become is
[39:16] what I I'm
[39:18] I'm always tapping into now cuz I look
[39:20] back at at Thai and
[39:25] his his courage was
[39:28] not to dwell on the hardship of his of
[39:32] his suffering but his courage that he's
[39:36] given to all of us through Plum Village
[39:38] and through his teaching and his way of
[39:39] being is also yes we suffered but now we
[39:45] have permission
[39:47] to be happy,
[39:49] to be joyful, to sing songs, to write
[39:52] poetry, to dance together,
[39:55] >> to renew renew this present moment,
[39:59] which that was almost like liberating
[40:02] for me because when I was coming to Plum
[40:04] Village, like there is like there's an
[40:07] opportunity to talk about our suffering,
[40:10] but we get so attached to it, right?
[40:12] It's like that's our only identity. It's
[40:14] like oh this is the journey I went
[40:16] through but Tai also say and what about
[40:20] the present moment like what are what
[40:23] are the potentials that you can see in
[40:26] yourself that I could I could do for my
[40:30] parents
[40:31] that was some radical idea that I've
[40:35] never heard all I heard is like okay
[40:40] now go and become a doctor make us
[40:42] [laughter] proud or get rich because we
[40:46] have suffered so much.
[40:48] >> And that part is still in me actually
[40:51] like I can still recognize that
[40:52] perfectionism that is like
[40:54] >> that has been transmitted to me because
[40:56] of fear because
[41:00] a lot of our ancestors were also slaves
[41:04] had to bend over and perform for the
[41:07] rich for the status. And so we have this
[41:10] like way of being that
[41:13] we are so scared of being wrong and
[41:15] we're so scared of being being free in a
[41:19] way. And I look back and we we u me and
[41:22] y'all and um and um our friend Ann here
[41:26] sometimes we would we would do something
[41:28] joyful but I can feel like myself like I
[41:30] resist expressing too much joy because I
[41:34] don't know how.
[41:36] And
[41:38] what the practice and what is radical
[41:41] about Buddhism that I also think people
[41:44] don't understand is so much more than a
[41:47] religion. Buddhism is a way of being.
[41:50] It's a way of being liberated in the
[41:53] present moment to give honor to all of
[41:57] the conditions that have come together
[41:59] to give you this moment. And for me um
[42:04] what I continue to um to see and
[42:08] understand in in Tai's teaching about
[42:12] joy because I was really skeptical about
[42:15] joy at the beginning like like like what
[42:18] you said like sometimes it's very
[42:20] performative and I was put in places
[42:22] where like like sing a song make us
[42:25] happy but actually now I'm like no I'm
[42:29] going to be joyful. I have the right to
[42:30] be joyful.
[42:32] >> I have the right
[42:34] to to honor my ancestors, to learn this
[42:38] Vietnamese song, and to sing it with
[42:40] pride and to sing it with my whole
[42:43] heart. And I'm so happy now that there
[42:46] are some moments where I'm in a I'm in
[42:49] an English-sp speakaking community. I'm
[42:51] like, you know, you guys, you know what?
[42:52] Today, I'm going to offer you a
[42:53] Vietnamese song and I'm not even going
[42:55] to translate it. Y'all just going to
[42:57] hear the melody and be moved by it. And
[43:01] before that I was like okay I want you
[43:03] to understand it so that you can accept
[43:04] me so that you can accept this language.
[43:06] And once again it's like we're serving.
[43:09] >> Yeah.
[43:10] >> And what Tai I got to witness in his
[43:12] presence cuz I got to travel with him
[43:15] around and he was enter into a lot of
[43:18] white spaces, right? And he was entering
[43:20] into spaces where it's it's a it's a
[43:23] radical present moment. He's teaching
[43:26] he's teaching those of of representation
[43:29] of ancestors that have come and
[43:31] colonized our country. He's teaching
[43:34] them how to be
[43:36] in peace, how to reconcile, how to heal,
[43:40] how to hold their suffering and also how
[43:42] to be joyful
[43:44] >> so that they can also
[43:46] be a part of this collective
[43:49] transformation,
[43:50] >> this collective healing that I believe
[43:52] that this is a very pivotal moment in
[43:56] in our era, in our times. We are
[43:58] witnessing so much um suffering and so
[44:02] much um pain but there's also a
[44:05] reckoning right now that I I feel and to
[44:09] combat or to not combat to embrace all
[44:12] of this.
[44:14] I understood joy is a form of resilience
[44:19] >> and to be able to
[44:22] to still be with pain because it
[44:25] yesterday when we were walking like in
[44:26] Buddhism there's this idea of of of the
[44:29] pure land of purity like we're
[44:31] practicing so that there's no more
[44:33] suffering. I came in with that idea.
[44:36] It's like I can only be happy when I
[44:38] don't suffer anymore.
[44:40] >> And I was like oh my gosh after 5 years
[44:42] is it working? But
[44:46] there was one day Tai said, "I would
[44:48] never want to send you guys to a place
[44:51] where there's no more suffering because
[44:53] you wouldn't learn, you wouldn't have
[44:55] empathy, you wouldn't understand."
[45:00] And that is no mud, no lotus, right? And
[45:03] and this idea that
[45:06] that perfection is where there's no more
[45:09] suffering is an illusion. And I think as
[45:13] a continuation and as we are a
[45:16] manifestation of of our parents and our
[45:19] ancestors suffering, but now I
[45:24] my dad passed this year. So like I'm
[45:26] stepping into a space where I'm like
[45:28] dad,
[45:30] you've always had this mantra which is
[45:32] enjoy
[45:35] easy
[45:37] be happy g
[45:38] >> you have the right to do this.
[45:42] And in August, I I started to to step
[45:45] into that more and I started to feel
[45:48] Tai's insight more, which is like, yes,
[45:52] there is suffering around,
[45:54] but collectively we can bring we can
[45:57] bring a refuge for one another to hold,
[46:01] to listen, and to sing.
[46:04] So this is something that for me has has
[46:06] been so
[46:08] um so alive and has been a force for me
[46:12] to move forward.
[46:15] Almost every year Tai gives a dharma
[46:16] talk and he says I would never want my
[46:19] disciples to be in a place where they
[46:23] don't suffer that they only know
[46:25] happiness. Um, and every year it's a
[46:27] drag on me
[46:29] >> because the origins of that was that
[46:31] when I was after my first retreat in 97,
[46:35] I wrote him a letter, an aspiration
[46:36] letter. I was like what, nine or 10. And
[46:39] for the first time, I actually saw my
[46:42] our elders, our aunties and uncles,
[46:45] laughing and singing like because
[46:47] usually when you see them, they're head
[46:49] down grinding, working. They're at the
[46:51] nail shop, they're at the bani shop.
[46:53] They're they're just working so hard.
[46:56] And for the first time in this retreat,
[46:59] I saw what Vietnamese joy looked like.
[47:04] And it was such a shock to me cuz my
[47:08] mother was laughing, my father was
[47:10] laughing. I didn't know my father could
[47:12] smile. Like it was it was such a
[47:14] surprise to me. And so I wrote him this
[47:16] letter and he said, you know, I want to
[47:17] ordain and I want to be in a place where
[47:20] uh I'm happy in the morning, happy in
[47:22] the afternoon, happy in the evening and
[47:24] I I want I want everyone to share that
[47:26] happiness too. And every year since he
[47:28] goes, you remember that letter?
[47:30] [snorts and laughter]
[47:30] >> He's like never I will never let you be
[47:33] in that place like that. He's like, you
[47:34] want to be happy in the morning, happy
[47:36] in the evening. Yeah. But he's like what
[47:37] an illusion, right? And every year he
[47:40] would drag me um because of that letter
[47:42] I wrote just on the dot. you'd be like,
[47:44] you know, I remember that letter. I'm
[47:45] like, I do, God, let it go. you know.
[47:48] [laughter]
[47:48] >> Um, but it makes me think of, you know,
[47:52] listening to both of you again, it's all
[47:55] again like Fapoo said, it's so there
[47:57] there's it's so rich to think,
[48:01] you know, when I when I'm listening to
[48:02] Ocean and
[48:05] it makes me think of like I think Markx,
[48:08] it was a Markx quote where he said um,
[48:12] you're conditioned by conditions not of
[48:13] your own making.
[48:14] >> Mhm.
[48:15] >> Right. And and it is to say that you are
[48:18] a product of conditions that you did not
[48:22] create for yourself. And so therefore
[48:25] like don't be like there has to be some
[48:27] sort of grace when you approach yourself
[48:29] or or or the way that you perceive and
[48:31] you treat yourself. And then your and
[48:34] your comment on what does it mean to be
[48:36] a practicing Buddhist and that it takes
[48:38] courage. Um and it takes a lot of
[48:43] courage to sit still to slow down and
[48:46] actually to turn around to face it. I've
[48:48] been on this thing cuz I was on the
[48:50] airplane recently and I I like to watch
[48:52] like nature videos on the airplane and
[48:54] there was this video of the sea turtles
[48:57] and they were telling the story about
[48:59] how hard it is for sea turtles to lay
[49:02] eggs on the beach and how long it takes
[49:04] and like how how there's a lot of
[49:06] intervention to make sure the sea
[49:08] turtles don't go extinct and all that
[49:09] stuff. And then, you know, 30 years
[49:12] later, the sea turtle returns back to
[49:13] the very place that it was born through
[49:16] a very like arduous and like challenging
[49:19] trip. And at the end of the trip where
[49:22] they're about to land on the uh land on
[49:25] the shore to lay their eggs, the music
[49:27] starts to change and suddenly there's a
[49:30] shark that comes and they're like, you
[49:32] know, at the end of the trip there's a
[49:34] shark that there's always these, you
[49:35] know, the school of sharks that come by
[49:37] and like it's it becomes a very tragic
[49:40] story when they follow some turtles who
[49:44] are like running away from this uh
[49:48] runway running away trying swim away
[49:50] from these sharks. They're exhausted and
[49:52] they can't keep up with this the pace of
[49:54] the sharks. And um there's this one
[49:59] particular turtle that was swimming and
[50:03] then decided that she wasn't going to
[50:04] swim anymore. And so she then just
[50:07] turned around and started facing the
[50:08] shark. And because she had turned around
[50:11] to face the shark, her body had turned
[50:13] and her shell had blocked the shark's
[50:16] mouth now. And the shark couldn't bite
[50:19] her anymore. And in fact, because she
[50:21] turned around and she faced the shark,
[50:23] the shark was like kind of like grabbing
[50:25] like sort of like what snapping at her
[50:28] shell and was pushing her towards the
[50:31] shore faster.
[50:33] And I just thought, wow, what a Buddhist
[50:35] story where you're just where the turtle
[50:38] was like, I'm not running anymore. I'm
[50:40] just going to turn around and face the
[50:42] very thing that is about to kill me and
[50:44] eat me alive
[50:45] >> and then actually take that
[50:49] source of immense fear or immense threat
[50:53] to who to your very existence and turn
[50:57] it into a force that pushes you to where
[50:58] you're you're trying to go.
[51:00] >> Fear becomes knowledge and knowledge
[51:02] becomes progress.
[51:03] >> Yeah.
[51:05] And and I often and I, you know, when I
[51:09] reflect on that moment and reflect on us
[51:11] sitting here and being here, I think one
[51:14] of the things that I learned from both
[51:16] listening to you both and listening to
[51:18] brother Fabu here talk about Vietnamese
[51:21] joy.
[51:23] I think about how again the the opening
[51:28] of imperfection,
[51:30] how how that informs so much of our
[51:32] being, not just present time with us,
[51:36] but in the past and also in the future
[51:40] where, you know, when TA was calling for
[51:43] peace during the Vietnam War,
[51:46] he would he would have I went to
[51:50] interview these aunties and uncles all
[51:52] that were of his first cohort in the
[51:55] school of youth for social services this
[51:57] past year. And these aunties said, you
[52:00] know, after a long day of
[52:04] collecting bodies and burying them,
[52:07] doing funeral rights, building schools
[52:09] and teaching, teaching children, trying
[52:13] to at least maintain some sort of
[52:15] stability in the village communal life.
[52:18] They would come back home
[52:21] and Tai would say, "Let's pick up a
[52:23] guitar." And he and everyone would just
[52:26] start singing together and singing and
[52:29] singing and singing. And he said that
[52:31] moment of collective joy even in the
[52:33] midst of
[52:35] this burning hell that everyone was
[52:38] witnessing was a thing that actually
[52:42] drove everyone and and motivated
[52:44] everyone and inspired everyone to get up
[52:46] every morning and face what the reality
[52:49] what the conditions were were offering
[52:51] were were imposing on them at that
[52:53] moment. And so when brother Fabu says
[52:56] joy is an act of resistance,
[53:01] I take that very seriously. And I used
[53:04] to think that in our pull village
[53:06] retreats when we had our beans or our
[53:08] vang, you know, the times where we get
[53:10] together, it was so scrappy and it was
[53:13] so it was like to I just thought it was
[53:16] so silly and I'm like we're not serious
[53:18] meditators. But actually, as I'm growing
[53:20] and as I'm getting older, I'm realizing
[53:24] how important that joy is. And then I'm
[53:27] listening to these dharma talks over
[53:29] from Tai and Tai like our practice is a
[53:32] practice of joy. Yes, we take suffering
[53:35] seriously, but joy is the name of the
[53:38] game,
[53:40] >> right? And so, I don't know. I I just I
[53:42] just wanted to name that cuz you know
[53:44] what you guys were talking about really
[53:47] um sparked a lot of
[53:50] curiosity in me to understand like what
[53:52] is it that brings you joy? How does what
[53:56] is your relationship to joy?
[54:00] >> In the context of all of your complex
[54:02] and multiffold identities,
[54:07] >> I like to think of it as heavy joy.
[54:09] >> Heavy joy.
[54:10] >> Heavy joy.
[54:11] say more. [laughter]
[54:13] >> Well, I think you know it's easy to fall
[54:16] into the binary of like enough diasporic
[54:19] tears,
[54:20] >> enough diasporic sadness.
[54:22] >> Um, but then the then the other end of
[54:26] that this happens in the writing
[54:27] community. It's like, all right, enough,
[54:30] you know, immigrant stories that are
[54:32] sad. Um, let's, you know, smile and
[54:37] grin. And that starts to become
[54:40] disingenuous too, especially in the
[54:43] history of Asian-American
[54:45] presence in this country is always in
[54:47] servitude.
[54:48] >> Mhm. [clears throat]
[54:49] >> Opening the door after you, sir. Smile
[54:51] and grin.
[54:52] >> Here you go. Here's your laundry, sir.
[54:55] Madam, smile and grin.
[54:57] >> Pick your color, please. Smile and grin.
[55:00] So, we are always opening the door and
[55:03] saying, "After you, after you." And so
[55:05] the Asian-American joy has often been
[55:10] a performance of legibility
[55:14] >> and to defang ourselves. Look, I'm just
[55:17] a happy golucky person. Um, you know, I
[55:21] had friends who have taken the citizen
[55:23] test and in their photos if they don't
[55:25] smile, they tell them take it again.
[55:28] So the Asian-American smile and this is
[55:31] you know a lot of scholarship has been
[55:32] done about this particularly in black
[55:34] communities like what is you know the
[55:37] African-Americans have to smile to
[55:40] render themselves a non-threat
[55:45] you know down to the minstrel painted
[55:48] across blackface traditions
[55:52] is this idea that um the joy will save
[55:55] you and the performance of Happiness
[55:57] will save you. So I think that's why
[56:00] you know we can avoid the pingponging of
[56:05] sadness and joy as if they are
[56:07] completely isolated binaries. And that's
[56:09] why I think heavy joy,
[56:10] >> joy with weight. And I was raised by
[56:14] women. And I think one thing that I
[56:16] think is important to say as a
[56:17] Vietnamese American was that in my
[56:20] household raised by women, I did not
[56:23] have the stereotypical like we did not
[56:25] talk about what happened. These women
[56:29] were [laughter] loose in the mouth. I'm
[56:31] tell like
[56:33] you are going to know [laughter]
[56:36] where you come from,
[56:39] what you came from and what it costs.
[56:42] >> Right. So
[56:44] >> you have you know we were there were
[56:45] four women who raised seven sons.
[56:48] >> Wow. [gasps] So what I learned was that
[56:53] they're they would sob telling these
[56:57] stories about what they've been through.
[56:59] And they did that to show us what it
[57:02] costs
[57:03] >> cuz they know that they went from a
[57:05] patriarchal country into another
[57:07] patriarchal country. But they were
[57:11] holding forth a matriarchy
[57:14] >> in the household. So they made sure we
[57:18] knew
[57:20] >> how many bananas they had to sell on a
[57:22] little float at 5:00 in the morning to
[57:26] get breakfast. You know, they had they
[57:27] made us know every cost and they also
[57:30] threw in some myths.
[57:31] >> Mhm.
[57:33] [laughter]
[57:35] >> Oh, that means I found you in the
[57:36] garbage trash. In the garbage can.
[57:38] [laughter]
[57:39] >> That's the origin story of all
[57:40] Vietnamese kids by by the way.
[57:42] >> So mythology, right? And so and they
[57:45] would start crying
[57:48] with such fervor.
[57:52] And my cousin and I were like seven,
[57:54] eight, nine watching, listening to these
[57:57] stories.
[57:59] And we were never ashamed of crying.
[58:03] >> We thought it was so powerful. Wow. Look
[58:06] at them
[58:08] show up to their histories with their
[58:12] full emotional range.
[58:14] And we thought they were so fierce. And
[58:17] we didn't know that in America crying
[58:21] was seen as weakness and shame. We even
[58:25] have euphemisms for it. Oh, I'm sorry. I
[58:27] lost control.
[58:29] >> I got misty eyed. Right? All of these
[58:32] things to avoid saying that we felt
[58:34] something. So we were very lucky to have
[58:38] that education.
[58:39] >> Yeah.
[58:40] >> And in the same breath they'll start
[58:42] cracking up.
[58:43] >> Mhm.
[58:44] >> So I'm like, "Oh, this is heavy joy."
[58:48] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[58:49] >> This is joy with weight.
[58:51] >> It is not um empty performative
[58:56] joy that comes out of the fatigue of
[58:58] reality.
[58:58] >> Yeah.
[58:59] >> Because I think I think about that a lot
[59:00] as a writer and a cultural producer.
[59:05] in that so many,
[59:08] you know, Americans or folks on the West
[59:10] and even Asian-Americans community were
[59:13] like, "Well, why is there so much um
[59:16] trauma? Let's get over it."
[59:19] >> I'm like, "Well, you tell me when
[59:22] >> we can get over it and I'll be the first
[59:24] one to sign up."
[59:26] >> But
[59:27] I think it's important to also push back
[59:29] and say, "I'm not writing about trauma.
[59:32] Trauma is subjective.
[59:35] Trauma is between you and your
[59:36] therapist.
[59:38] >> I'm writing about violence.
[59:40] >> And I think
[59:42] the white critical framework often
[59:45] forces us into a trauma negotiation to a
[59:49] trauma discourse to actually defang us.
[59:52] Oh, look at them. They're just reporting
[59:54] on their trauma. It's so self-indulgent.
[59:58] It's all about them. But when you push
[59:59] back and you actually say, "No, I'm
[1:00:01] writing about violence."
[1:00:04] When I reenter the conversation on
[1:00:06] violence, now you have to ask, "Where
[1:00:08] does it come from?
[1:00:10] >> Who did it? Who benefited from it? Who
[1:00:13] still benefits from it? And what are the
[1:00:15] aftermaths? Now you are in a historical
[1:00:18] question. You are no longer in this sort
[1:00:22] of therapy, self-improvement speak.
[1:00:25] So, it's important for us to always push
[1:00:28] back on those frames and say, you know,
[1:00:31] and one of those things is that the
[1:00:33] price of my laughter is the pain and I
[1:00:38] don't have to choose. And one thing that
[1:00:40] I want to say to young Asian-American
[1:00:43] artists is that just because
[1:00:46] a white audience is bored of your pain
[1:00:50] does not mean you need to start dancing
[1:00:52] a tap dance
[1:00:53] >> for that audience.
[1:00:56] You get to engage with your history
[1:00:59] robustly. And it's up to you to navigate
[1:01:02] that on your terms and not fall into
[1:01:06] being swayed by audience fatigue because
[1:01:10] trends come and go. Some people will
[1:01:13] find, you know, diasporic violence
[1:01:17] interesting. Some people will find it
[1:01:19] overdone.
[1:01:21] But you're not beholden to them. you're
[1:01:25] beholden to how you want to tell your
[1:01:26] story as thoroughly as you want,
[1:01:29] including not telling it at all, that's
[1:01:31] okay, too. Um and I think giving that
[1:01:34] openness you know one thing [snorts] an
[1:01:37] example that I often give and I I I was
[1:01:40] so touched y'all when you said that um
[1:01:43] Tai would be obsessed with Vietnam
[1:01:47] because I think even when we are ejected
[1:01:50] or leave the the homeland it still
[1:01:53] haunts us in a different way that folks
[1:01:57] in the homeland are not haunted in the
[1:01:59] same way. There was a sentence very
[1:02:03] similar to the ghost where are you
[1:02:06] situation when I was young. My mother
[1:02:10] would look out the window at night. This
[1:02:13] this one beautiful summer night in
[1:02:15] Hartford and there was a full moon over
[1:02:18] the uh the city
[1:02:20] and then we're looking at it together.
[1:02:23] You know, there's no TV, no radio. We're
[1:02:25] just looking, you know, a pastime that's
[1:02:27] quite gone now. looking out a window
[1:02:29] with your mom in the summer, this
[1:02:31] beautiful moon over this, you know,
[1:02:34] desolate city. And she says to me,
[1:02:42] >> that the moon in Hartford will never be
[1:02:44] as beautiful as the moon and go.
[1:02:46] [snorts] Now, she's not a fool. She
[1:02:50] knows it's the same moon.
[1:02:53] But what is she saying by that, right?
[1:02:55] And and what's happening there? She's
[1:02:57] romanticizing.
[1:02:59] >> And this is often the biggest phauxa
[1:03:02] in Asian-American discourse. How dare
[1:03:05] you romanticize? I like, have you seen
[1:03:07] Paris by Night?
[1:03:08] >> Oh, oh, [laughter] yeah. I grew up with
[1:03:09] that.
[1:03:10] >> I'm like, Paris by Night is an
[1:03:12] institutional
[1:03:14] lifesaving
[1:03:16] >> performance of intracommunal
[1:03:19] romanticization.
[1:03:20] >> Yeah.
[1:03:21] rice patties, army helmets, everything
[1:03:25] is about recreating a hyperbolic
[1:03:29] representation of what is no longer
[1:03:32] experiencable.
[1:03:34] And I think that is what I'm really
[1:03:37] interested in because we get young
[1:03:40] Asian-American creatives get so shook
[1:03:43] about the white gays and they say, "Oh
[1:03:45] gosh, I don't want to romanticize the
[1:03:47] homeland." And I said but
[1:03:51] between us my mother was speaking to me
[1:03:54] when this conf she is romanticizing
[1:03:56] [gasps]
[1:03:57] but there's a very useful function to
[1:03:59] that romanticization.
[1:04:01] She's able cuz in writing there's
[1:04:02] context and subtext and the subtext in
[1:04:05] that sentence is basically
[1:04:08] I miss my home. Yeah.
[1:04:11] I know it's not the same moon, but
[1:04:14] inside that sentence is great loss,
[1:04:17] pain, hurt, desire, and the desire to
[1:04:21] give something to your child, an
[1:04:24] experience your child never gotten.
[1:04:26] [snorts] And so it turns it into a fairy
[1:04:27] tale.
[1:04:29] >> And so
[1:04:31] someone could say, look at that
[1:04:34] sentence. such a romanticizing,
[1:04:36] you know, exotic look, but between us,
[1:04:40] it's a very edifying conversation. And
[1:04:44] that sentence would not be possible
[1:04:46] without war. Nobody in Vietnam now would
[1:04:50] ever say legitimately, the moon in Gong
[1:04:55] is so much more beautiful than the moon
[1:04:56] in Hartford, Connecticut.
[1:04:59] That that's a diasporic sentence. And I
[1:05:02] think I'm interested in preserving
[1:05:05] and centering the diasporic sentence.
[1:05:08] All of that history is inside that
[1:05:10] moment. And I think we should also give
[1:05:13] our community members more grace.
[1:05:15] Romanticization is a deeply legitimate
[1:05:18] response to trauma and pain and violence
[1:05:22] and hurt. And actually, it's very
[1:05:24] beautiful. You know, Paris by Night
[1:05:26] could be could have been about many
[1:05:28] things, but they chose for it to be
[1:05:32] about the most recognizable
[1:05:36] symbols of Vietnam and that was what was
[1:05:39] carried. And then they recreated that in
[1:05:42] like Minnesota,
[1:05:44] Buffalo. They tra it was a traveling
[1:05:47] performance and and then they bootleg
[1:05:51] the tapes [laughter] every month when
[1:05:53] they came out. you have to go to a
[1:05:54] grocery store in Hartford, you know, to
[1:05:57] get the bootleg tapes.
[1:05:59] >> Um, so then that's also a diasporic
[1:06:02] cultural function. You wouldn't have to
[1:06:04] do those things in the mainland. Um, so
[1:06:07] I I've always wanted to celebrate that.
[1:06:10] And I think the obsession that you said
[1:06:12] that Tai had with Vietnam, but also the
[1:06:14] desire to commit to something completely
[1:06:17] new and and un
[1:06:22] unfathomable.
[1:06:23] It makes me think about what um the
[1:06:25] writer Ache,
[1:06:28] you know, said about
[1:06:30] writing in English as a Nigerian writer.
[1:06:33] And he says
[1:06:35] they the English world
[1:06:39] would never fathom the unimaginable
[1:06:42] things we would do to their language.
[1:06:46] >> I'm like, dang.
[1:06:48] >> Wow. [laughter]
[1:06:49] >> Yeah. and he he used it as a defense of
[1:06:52] writing in English.
[1:06:54] >> He's like, "They don't even know
[1:06:56] >> what we can do with this thing. We're
[1:06:59] going to make this unfathomable." And it
[1:07:01] reminds me of Paul Salon
[1:07:04] who family was murdered in the
[1:07:08] Holocaust.
[1:07:10] Austrian writer writing in Germany, fled
[1:07:13] to Paris, learned French, learned
[1:07:16] English, but continued to write in
[1:07:18] German. And when he asks they ask why
[1:07:21] this is the language of your killers
[1:07:25] he says true
[1:07:27] it is also the language for which I
[1:07:30] first learned poetry
[1:07:34] and it is up to me to create a third
[1:07:37] language. So he started to push German
[1:07:40] words together to create like a
[1:07:42] Frankenstein
[1:07:44] German. And I felt like that was such a
[1:07:47] powerful way to to acknowledge the
[1:07:51] painful history while also acknowledging
[1:07:54] the agency and innovation possible in
[1:07:57] the present.
[1:08:20] beautiful. I just listening to that in
[1:08:23] upper hamlet um there is the vegetable
[1:08:27] garden and it's run by all the
[1:08:29] Vietnamese brothers and [clears throat]
[1:08:31] it's like one of the most favorite space
[1:08:33] for like all those who want some like
[1:08:36] real good food cuz there's MSG there.
[1:08:39] [laughter]
[1:08:41] Because because at the at the dining
[1:08:43] table there's no MSG because there was
[1:08:46] like this whole conspiracy that MSG is
[1:08:48] like really bad for you.
[1:08:50] >> Oh my god.
[1:08:50] >> Right. I mean this you know it even
[1:08:52] happens in a monastery where
[1:08:54] >> and you know MSG is in Donald Trump's
[1:08:56] favorite food.
[1:08:57] >> No [laughter] way.
[1:08:58] >> Cheetos.
[1:08:59] >> Cheetos. Pringles.
[1:09:01] >> It's all there.
[1:09:02] >> Yeah. It's all there. It's all there.
[1:09:04] That's the a crazy metaphor about
[1:09:07] Asianness
[1:09:08] >> is that girl, what you fear is already
[1:09:11] in your favorite thing.
[1:09:12] >> It's already there. Yeah.
[1:09:14] >> We [clears throat] already inside you.
[1:09:15] >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
[1:09:17] >> There's no escaping.
[1:09:20] >> Yeah. I you know I want to go back
[1:09:23] really quick to what you said Ocean
[1:09:25] about the white gays because I think I
[1:09:29] think there is a conversation to be had
[1:09:30] too because just because the complexity
[1:09:33] of our identities
[1:09:35] >> and of being an immigrant and refugee
[1:09:38] and Vietnamese American, Vietnamese
[1:09:40] Canadian, Vietnamese Australian, the
[1:09:42] hyphenated life. Um
[1:09:46] and our ideas like you know there's
[1:09:49] violence that are bes like imposed upon
[1:09:51] us by communities outside and there's
[1:09:54] violence that is bestowed upon us by our
[1:09:57] own community.
[1:09:59] >> Yeah.
[1:10:00] >> Like when someone looks at someone and
[1:10:02] says you're not Vietnamese enough or
[1:10:06] when someone looks at you and say you're
[1:10:09] not Buddhist enough. I mean, we, you
[1:10:11] know, if you go on Facebook where every
[1:10:13] Vietnamese and their mothers are
[1:10:14] commenting on everyone's life, you shall
[1:10:17] see that no one is not enough of
[1:10:20] anything to anyone. And you know, should
[1:10:23] a video of the brothers and sisters
[1:10:25] singing in Plum Village, they would say,
[1:10:28] "That's not Buddhist enough."
[1:10:31] Or, "Should you write about the
[1:10:33] Vietnamese experience?" They'd like,
[1:10:35] "He's not Vietnamese enough. He's not
[1:10:38] queer enough. he's not, you know, X, Y,
[1:10:41] and Z enough. And so your sharing of the
[1:10:44] Frankenstein German language when you're
[1:10:46] just like crushing together and seeing
[1:10:48] what could happen,
[1:10:50] I think that is much more
[1:10:55] closer to the reality of what it is to
[1:10:58] be, first of all, Vietnamese.
[1:11:01] We uh we are
[1:11:06] you know when you when I was in Vietnam
[1:11:07] one one summer I kept asking people what
[1:11:09] does it mean to you to be in in Vietnam
[1:11:11] in in the country? So what does it mean?
[1:11:14] What do you think the sort of spirit
[1:11:15] behind the Vietnamese people is? And I
[1:11:19] cannot tell you how many people said
[1:11:21] Vietnamese people are verying
[1:11:25] >> like it really just depends
[1:11:31] on the conditions. Mhm.
[1:11:32] >> It depends on the fate, you know, and
[1:11:36] from the north to the south that we
[1:11:38] don't agree on very many things, but it
[1:11:39] seems like the Vietnamese people have
[1:11:41] agreed that we're very
[1:11:44] >> and this is something that I in my own
[1:11:48] research I've been looking in medieval
[1:11:50] Vietnam, they were already spouting this
[1:11:53] thing where they knew that they were
[1:11:55] inheriting a lot of Chinese forms, but
[1:12:00] they were they would never they were
[1:12:01] they wen't aren't forcing themselves to
[1:12:04] be defined by it. And in fact, one of
[1:12:06] like the first major Buddhist
[1:12:10] writings from the Tran dynasty of like
[1:12:14] Jangyang was written all innom because
[1:12:17] he was like Vietnamese people can
[1:12:20] we could we could hang on our own. We
[1:12:22] don't need the classical Chinese. But at
[1:12:25] the end the very end the the the last
[1:12:28] verse he wrote it in classical Chinese.
[1:12:32] And it was sort of like and this is how
[1:12:34] Vietnamese kept always sort of like
[1:12:36] skirted along this these borders of of
[1:12:39] of Chineseness and Vietnamese where we
[1:12:42] have our own language and we will make
[1:12:44] these things accessible to the
[1:12:46] Vietnamese people by using our language
[1:12:48] and if we need to we will play
[1:12:51] >> with your language as well.
[1:12:53] >> We will end the crescendo in classical
[1:12:55] Chinese cuz we know how to rock with you
[1:12:57] but you can't rock with us.
[1:12:58] >> Yes.
[1:12:59] >> Do you know what I mean? And so there's
[1:13:01] this beautiful the yingness a practice
[1:13:04] of like being so incredibly fluid in who
[1:13:08] we are as a people as a nation and our
[1:13:12] identities, right? Whether we are
[1:13:14] Vietnamese in America, Vietnamese in
[1:13:16] Canada, Vietnamese in France. And so I
[1:13:19] wonder what you all think about
[1:13:23] why do we feel the need if that's so
[1:13:26] embedded in our culture, this this
[1:13:28] beautiful spirit of M
[1:13:30] >> and there's a discipline behind it. It's
[1:13:32] not willy-nilly. It's very disciplined.
[1:13:34] >> Yeah.
[1:13:35] >> Why do we have to do that to what are we
[1:13:38] doing to ourselves when we when we try
[1:13:40] to police each other's Vietnamese or
[1:13:43] police each other's Buddhistness?
[1:13:46] >> And who is going to be the judge of
[1:13:48] that?
[1:13:48] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[1:13:50] >> And why don't we liberate ourselves from
[1:13:52] that?
[1:13:53] >> And how can we liberate ourselves from
[1:13:55] that?
[1:13:56] I can answer by giving everybody who's
[1:13:59] listening an exclusive
[1:14:01] an exclusive um
[1:14:04] um breaking news.
[1:14:05] >> Um that I am actually mostly Chinese.
[1:14:12] >> Uh oh, [laughter]
[1:14:14] [gasps]
[1:14:14] >> but my father
[1:14:15] >> The podcast ends here.
[1:14:19] >> You heard it on the way out. [laughter]
[1:14:21] >> Empty emptying my wallet of all my car
[1:14:23] Vietnamese cards. Um um my father is
[1:14:26] ethnic Chinese and he is only he lives
[1:14:30] he grew up in Jalong.
[1:14:31] >> Mhm.
[1:14:32] >> And it's also why many Vietnamese people
[1:14:36] have been scratching their heads over
[1:14:38] this for many years. Why I personally do
[1:14:42] not pronounce my name Vong but I say
[1:14:44] Vong because my father does not say
[1:14:46] Vong. His name is Wong. Mhm.
[1:14:49] >> So when [clears throat] he calls me, he
[1:14:51] says Niha, right? And he speaks Chinese
[1:14:54] to his family in um in Vietnam. So his
[1:14:59] name has been Vietnamized
[1:15:01] um to Vong, but it is Wong W or in
[1:15:05] Cantonese W.
[1:15:07] So I have a hybrid. It's going to be so
[1:15:10] um you know um confusing to go up to
[1:15:14] people in America and say my name is Vu
[1:15:16] Og but please call me Wong. You
[1:15:20] [laughter] know so I said let's do a
[1:15:22] hybrid of Wong to acknowledge it's his
[1:15:25] name. My mother's uh Vietnamese maiden
[1:15:28] name is Lei, right? And we had a long
[1:15:32] long tradition of people using Lee,
[1:15:34] pronouncing it Lee. So, I have to
[1:15:36] correct that, you know, cuz that's her
[1:15:38] name. Um, and so there you go. But I
[1:15:41] wake up every day and look in a mirror
[1:15:43] and say, "I'm a Vietnamese American. My
[1:15:46] culture is deeply rooted in Vietnamese,
[1:15:47] but then also my father's Chinese." So,
[1:15:50] what And that's a long history of of um
[1:15:54] of Chinese in Vietnam and and and and
[1:15:58] the the power dynamics, the
[1:16:00] discrimination, you know, all of that.
[1:16:02] Um, so it's important for me to say, I
[1:16:04] think it's really important in America,
[1:16:05] too, because people are like, why is he
[1:16:06] pronouncing his name Vong, it's VU, but
[1:16:09] then that's a binary understanding and
[1:16:11] actually a lack of understanding of
[1:16:13] Vietnamese history,
[1:16:15] >> that entanglement.
[1:16:16] >> Um, and also like our own colonial past
[1:16:21] >> with the Cham nations and our attempt at
[1:16:24] ethnic cleansing. Like, are we ready for
[1:16:25] that? Are we ready? Mh.
[1:16:27] >> Um, and [snorts] I think that's but
[1:16:29] that's also important to say that we are
[1:16:31] not perennial victims.
[1:16:32] >> That's right.
[1:16:33] >> We are entangled in this world. And and
[1:16:37] I think to answer your question, y'all,
[1:16:38] I think I used I lived for a long time
[1:16:41] in Lefforts Boulevard in New York City
[1:16:43] when I was there. And it was a
[1:16:47] traditionally a workingclass community
[1:16:49] in the 20s. Then after World War II, it
[1:16:52] was a community of Lithuanian Americans.
[1:16:55] And more recently, it's a place where um
[1:16:57] Trinidad, Caribbean, Gy and Trinidad and
[1:17:00] Jamaican um immigrant communities would
[1:17:03] populate um at the end of the A train in
[1:17:05] Richmond Hill. And I lived there for a
[1:17:08] while and boy, you know, you have to be
[1:17:10] careful [laughter] if you who you call
[1:17:12] Jamaican, Canada, you know, and I think
[1:17:15] these are major distinct and everyone
[1:17:18] had this hierarchy that they set up that
[1:17:24] actually really resembles the policing
[1:17:27] that you were talking about, you know,
[1:17:29] both inside those communities and
[1:17:31] against each other.
[1:17:33] Um, and I think a lot of that comes from
[1:17:36] the lack of agency and power.
[1:17:40] >> When we have so little, we have to hang
[1:17:42] on to what we have. And that becomes a
[1:17:45] self-fortifying
[1:17:46] ideal. My Vietnamese life is more
[1:17:50] authentic than yours.
[1:17:52] And that's very comforting when we have
[1:17:54] so little to hold on to. And so it
[1:17:57] becomes scarcity syndrome.
[1:18:00] >> And I think that's more of a function
[1:18:02] of violence than anything innately
[1:18:05] Vietnamese. I think many communities who
[1:18:08] who have to fracture themselves
[1:18:12] to land somewhere. You know, my first
[1:18:15] novel began in fragments on Earth were
[1:18:18] briefly gorgeous because I wanted
[1:18:20] readers to feel that they're coming upon
[1:18:22] a shipwreck and say, "Well, where did
[1:18:25] this come from?" And I think a lot of
[1:18:28] dasporic communities both in Vietname
[1:18:31] Vietnamese communities and beyond
[1:18:33] experience great fractures and flatsom.
[1:18:37] And when you're just holding on, if you
[1:18:39] borrow that metaphor, you're just
[1:18:40] holding on to a piece of debris like
[1:18:43] Neonardo Caprio in the Titanic. You want
[1:18:46] to be like, my piece of my little door
[1:18:48] that I'm hanging on is better than your
[1:18:50] [laughter]
[1:18:51] piece of wood. you know, mine's the real
[1:18:55] ejection
[1:18:56] >> from the center. Um, I'm holding on to
[1:18:59] the authentic lineage and you are not.
[1:19:02] And that becomes a psychologically
[1:19:04] soothing thing. And again, I think with
[1:19:06] my elders, I I know that 100%. I look at
[1:19:09] that with just grace. I say, I know
[1:19:11] where that's coming from.
[1:19:12] >> It comes from hurt and I can let it be
[1:19:16] and I can move from that and let it
[1:19:18] stay.
[1:19:19] >> Yeah.
[1:19:19] >> Let it
[1:19:20] >> Yeah. Like you can you get to hold on to
[1:19:23] that
[1:19:24] >> and I will let it sink. [clears throat]
[1:19:26] >> You get to hold on, I will let it sink.
[1:19:29] >> That is the difference of agency without
[1:19:32] having to
[1:19:34] to correct or cancel. Cuz I think that's
[1:19:37] also
[1:19:39] a problem to the reactionary cancelling
[1:19:42] of our elders
[1:19:43] >> without understanding where they're
[1:19:45] coming from. Cuz that's easy too. We go
[1:19:47] to school, we learn all this language,
[1:19:48] and then we come back and then we yell
[1:19:50] at our grandmas, you know? [laughter]
[1:19:52] And I was like, is that how you want to
[1:19:53] live?
[1:19:54] >> I was visiting this school last year,
[1:19:57] >> and I relate to it, but there's these
[1:20:00] very young Asian-Americans. They're
[1:20:02] like, I don't want to have filial piety
[1:20:05] because it's a stereotype.
[1:20:08] I'm like, okay, fair.
[1:20:12] But if you reject that, you're only
[1:20:15] moving from one end of the cage to the
[1:20:17] other because you're still beholden to
[1:20:20] the white gays.
[1:20:22] White people just keep expecting me to
[1:20:23] have filio piety. I'm going to reject.
[1:20:26] What are you going to do? Go home and
[1:20:27] cuss out grandma? [laughter]
[1:20:29] Do you want to live like that? Or do you
[1:20:31] want to center your own agency
[1:20:34] and
[1:20:36] stop
[1:20:38] living up to or denying
[1:20:42] The white case is misconception of you.
[1:20:44] My take is that we're always going to be
[1:20:47] misconceived.
[1:20:48] >> You can do it or don't do it, baby.
[1:20:51] They're not going to understand you.
[1:20:52] >> Yeah.
[1:20:52] >> So, do what you value.
[1:20:55] >> Do not
[1:20:57] surrender your agency. That's the
[1:21:00] saddest thing. You're going to go home
[1:21:01] and cuss out your elders because you
[1:21:03] want to be you want to buck the trend,
[1:21:06] [laughter]
[1:21:07] >> right?
[1:21:08] And you want to be able to ask yourself
[1:21:11] what is important to me
[1:21:13] >> I will preserve. What is not helpful to
[1:21:16] me I will discard but it's up to me not
[1:21:20] the white gays
[1:21:21] >> to control me.
[1:21:23] >> Beautiful.
[1:21:24] I want to add from the Buddhist side um
[1:21:27] in in a monastery what what agency h has
[1:21:31] been showing itself in our tradition and
[1:21:35] it takes a lot of courage to unlearn a
[1:21:38] lot of the white gays and just to
[1:21:40] acknowledge oh that was a reaction from
[1:21:44] colonialism or of these habits or the
[1:21:47] things that we've picked up and it's
[1:21:50] scary to let go because it's comforting
[1:21:52] also the the habits that we have um we
[1:21:57] have learned in order to be seen and to
[1:21:58] be heard and to be accepted. Um
[1:22:03] and the practice of Buddhism
[1:22:06] is mindfulness is agency. Like in this
[1:22:10] present moment, you you have an
[1:22:12] opportunity to embrace that happen
[1:22:14] energy. You said, "Oh, I don't have to
[1:22:16] do this anymore."
[1:22:18] >> I'm a new person. I am embracing the
[1:22:21] past and I'm carrying towards the
[1:22:24] future.
[1:22:25] And one moment for me where I saw I saw
[1:22:30] Tai's courage was when us young
[1:22:34] monastics, we were up and coming in his
[1:22:36] community. We're like the second
[1:22:38] generation. So the first generation were
[1:22:40] a lot of my elders that were all
[1:22:42] refugees, but we're like the children of
[1:22:45] the refugees. And when we came in, we
[1:22:49] were like, "Let's do hip-hop for for for
[1:22:53] for the concert for the Vang." We're
[1:22:56] like, I don't want to do fan dance
[1:22:58] anymore. I don't want to do candle
[1:22:59] dances. Like, I want to rock what I grew
[1:23:02] up with, you know?
[1:23:04] >> And it was the first time in 2012, we
[1:23:07] did um Lupe Fiasco, the show goes on.
[1:23:11] >> Oh, amazing.
[1:23:12] >> And Price Tag by Jesse J and Bob. And we
[1:23:15] rocked the stage like the whole
[1:23:18] community 800 people started dancing and
[1:23:22] in the monastic community there were two
[1:23:24] reaction one is like
[1:23:28] that's not supposed to happen. Monastics
[1:23:30] are not so supposed to do this and the
[1:23:33] second reaction is like yes
[1:23:35] yes do it be free and when there's fear
[1:23:40] and uncertainty then you go and you
[1:23:43] tattletail. So Tai was still there. So
[1:23:45] they went and did tattletail to Tai. And
[1:23:48] on my day of rotation of seeing him as
[1:23:51] an attendant, he said, "Fapu, come here.
[1:23:54] Have a cup of tea. Apparently,
[1:23:58] you've done something." And and and I've
[1:24:00] been told and I I got really fearful. I
[1:24:04] was like, "Oh my gosh, my my teacher I'm
[1:24:06] about to be cancelled." That's what I
[1:24:08] thought. [laughter]
[1:24:09] I really thought I was about to be
[1:24:10] cancelled because
[1:24:13] the report back to Tai was this is what
[1:24:16] the young manastics did and I don't
[1:24:18] think it's appropriate for monastics to
[1:24:20] be doing hip-hop because once we're
[1:24:24] doing it we kind of lose our body a
[1:24:26] little bit which the mindful manners of
[1:24:28] it is to be seen in a particular way
[1:24:32] very graceful
[1:24:34] >> no movement like you know don't show
[1:24:36] your skin like but it's Not like we
[1:24:39] weren't like taking out our robes or
[1:24:41] anything, but just the body movement
[1:24:43] that comes with the beats and
[1:24:44] everything. And as Tai was recounting
[1:24:48] everything he was telling me in my head,
[1:24:49] I was just like, "Okay, just tell me to
[1:24:51] never do this again." And then he just
[1:24:54] looked at me with so much compassion
[1:24:58] and he said, "Do you know what Tai said
[1:25:00] to the monastics that reported this to
[1:25:02] you about about your performance?"
[1:25:06] He said, "But that's my kind of
[1:25:08] Buddhism."
[1:25:10] >> Mic drop. [laughter]
[1:25:12] >> And in that moment, I was like, "Ty,
[1:25:15] you're my guy." Like, ride and die, you
[1:25:18] know, [laughter] from now into the eons.
[1:25:20] Like, I just felt so understood and so
[1:25:25] so seen. And and what does it mean to be
[1:25:30] to just be a Buddhist? Because Buddhism
[1:25:33] it it just keeps evolving. Buddhism
[1:25:36] dances with culture, dances with art,
[1:25:38] dances with the present moment. And this
[1:25:41] is where I feel so grateful to be a
[1:25:46] student of Thai
[1:25:48] with Vietnamese roots and with the
[1:25:50] understanding of change and the
[1:25:52] understanding of bridging. And recently
[1:25:57] Tai Tai used to tell us though, but you
[1:25:59] have to go back to Vietnam. You got to
[1:26:01] go back to Vietnam to eat it,
[1:26:04] >> you know, um to experience not just the
[1:26:07] language but the smell, the noise, the
[1:26:10] culture, the incense which we don't
[1:26:13] have. Maybe maybe back in our days like
[1:26:16] those temples, we we can feel some of
[1:26:18] that. But now it's becoming quite
[1:26:21] different. Um, and now when I go back to
[1:26:24] Vietnam though, my earlier days I used
[1:26:27] to come back even with a western gaze
[1:26:29] >> to Vietnam and I would compare
[1:26:31] everything. I was like, "Oh, if only
[1:26:34] they were more educated or like, oh, you
[1:26:37] know, in the west we're so much better."
[1:26:40] But the as I keep growing and as I am
[1:26:45] entering into my own authentic self,
[1:26:49] I'm like, "Oh, this is so rich.
[1:26:52] >> This is so unique. I want to know more.
[1:26:55] I want to Oh, this is why I squat so
[1:26:57] much because everybody squats. All my
[1:26:59] ancestors squats. And this is why we are
[1:27:05] so unique in language and in culture in
[1:27:08] like if you go travel through Vietnam
[1:27:10] the same kua
[1:27:12] sweet and sour soup is different from
[1:27:14] north center and south. The south we
[1:27:17] love is sweet.
[1:27:18] >> Yeah.
[1:27:18] >> The center they love is spicy.
[1:27:20] >> Yeah.
[1:27:20] >> The north I'm not sure. I don't
[1:27:22] remember. [laughter]
[1:27:24] But, you know, I I think as a
[1:27:26] Vietnamese, like especially us as in the
[1:27:31] third category,
[1:27:33] I want to say we can be
[1:27:37] fully authentic Vietnamese and we can be
[1:27:40] fully a hybrid and a condition and
[1:27:45] whatever condition shows up, we can meet
[1:27:47] it, we can sing with it, we can dance
[1:27:48] with it. Like bano, we've made new
[1:27:51] versions of it. like we've taken the
[1:27:53] tacos and made it better with some MSG
[1:27:57] and some like you know some like some
[1:27:59] like seasoning. So, and I think this is
[1:28:01] where like in our in in this
[1:28:03] conversation where I I think our
[1:28:05] friendship is like we're we are
[1:28:08] continuously flowing as a Vietnamese
[1:28:10] with so much authenticity of who we are
[1:28:14] >> and embracing all of the zooing all the
[1:28:17] conditions that shows up in front of us
[1:28:20] and at the same time bringing our
[1:28:21] ancestors to meet that. And this is
[1:28:25] where I feel
[1:28:27] that healing for my parents cuz I have
[1:28:29] so much grace for my parents. I was just
[1:28:31] with my mom and I continue to have so
[1:28:34] much grace and acceptance. Mommy,
[1:28:38] I'm just happy that you have found a way
[1:28:42] and I don't need you to change anymore.
[1:28:44] When I was growing up, it's like, mom,
[1:28:45] you got to be different. You got to be
[1:28:46] better. Da da da da. Because this is
[1:28:48] what I saw out there. And the
[1:28:52] understanding is like no what they what
[1:28:55] they went through.
[1:28:57] >> Can we even do that? Could we have
[1:29:00] traveled the sea like that and not give
[1:29:03] up? Could we have done worked two jobs
[1:29:07] um in the week in the day sometimes and
[1:29:11] not see our children? Like I remember in
[1:29:13] the week whenever I come home I would
[1:29:16] never see my parents cuz they're working
[1:29:18] >> and when I'm asleep um they would come
[1:29:20] home and when I wake up already they
[1:29:23] were gone but food was already made for
[1:29:26] school. It's like can I do that in my
[1:29:28] generation like if I was to have
[1:29:30] children right so the expectation that
[1:29:33] we also
[1:29:35] have for our parents sometimes
[1:29:38] the Bu in Buddhism what I've learned
[1:29:40] with mindfulness is
[1:29:43] just accept that there are some
[1:29:46] sufferings
[1:29:48] that maybe they can't change
[1:29:50] >> and it's okay
[1:29:52] >> but I am their continuation I'll change
[1:29:55] that for them I'll transform. I'll do my
[1:29:57] part
[1:29:58] >> in transforming that for them. And that
[1:30:00] is my kahill. That's my feelop piety.
[1:30:02] >> For me, filop piety is not just buying
[1:30:04] them a car or like um making sure that
[1:30:08] they're proud of me for the position I
[1:30:11] am in now. Actually, my go is like I see
[1:30:14] you, I understand you, and I accept you
[1:30:16] >> and I'm going to embrace also what you
[1:30:18] transmitted to me. I'm not going to push
[1:30:20] it away. There are so many things I push
[1:30:22] away from my parents that I recognize in
[1:30:24] me, but I'm running away from myself.
[1:30:27] >> It is only the moments when I'm
[1:30:29] embracing them. And I do this also with
[1:30:32] my elder monastic community. I was like,
[1:30:36] you know what, my my elders, I got you
[1:30:39] here. I got you here. And I think this
[1:30:42] is where I am unlearning and I am
[1:30:45] stepping into my full agency. And
[1:30:49] yesterday we were just joking. You know
[1:30:51] what? How was your day? I've done my
[1:30:52] best and that's all I can do.
[1:30:55] >> And I think that
[1:30:58] for us to like just be able to
[1:31:02] to have food on our tables and and not
[1:31:05] have to worry about that, that's a
[1:31:07] success story already. And for us then
[1:31:10] to find each other in the west and be
[1:31:14] friends and like when we come together
[1:31:16] like we start our mouth is also spilling
[1:31:19] tea non-stop because that's part of our
[1:31:22] ancestral joy ancestral you know we're a
[1:31:25] village community what I go through I
[1:31:27] want you to know about it.
[1:31:28] >> Tell me about your life. O and sometimes
[1:31:31] it's not even about solving each other's
[1:31:33] problem, but it's just like knowing and
[1:31:35] and I want to hold some of that for you
[1:31:38] and just to have that knowledge that my
[1:31:41] people
[1:31:43] can embrace that for me.
[1:31:45] >> Yeah.
[1:31:45] >> And I think that's one of the beauty
[1:31:47] that I've learned in our culture. It's
[1:31:50] like sometimes we're silent, but that
[1:31:53] silence is not it's not to suppress it,
[1:31:55] but it's that silence is I know and I
[1:31:57] will cry with you.
[1:31:59] And sometimes with other with other
[1:32:02] communities, it's like, oh, I'll give
[1:32:05] you some advices, you know. And and I
[1:32:08] think that this is where
[1:32:10] um the power that I keep connecting back
[1:32:13] to my Vietnamese size. I'm not rejecting
[1:32:16] it anymore. And I'm also bringing it in
[1:32:19] to my way of being and to dance with it.
[1:32:22] And I know and I can navigate now. I
[1:32:24] feel so rich.
[1:32:25] >> I know how to navigate in Vietnam. I
[1:32:27] know how to navigate in France, in Plum
[1:32:30] Village, in America. And I love speaking
[1:32:34] Vietnamese now. That's one of my
[1:32:36] greatest joy. If I'm at a coffee shop or
[1:32:38] at a restaurant and I can hear my the
[1:32:40] waitress or the um the barista speaking
[1:32:43] Vietnamese, I'm speaking Vietnamese to
[1:32:45] them.
[1:32:46] >> And I've had so much encounters like
[1:32:48] this and the joy that it brings back to
[1:32:51] all of us that I see you. That language,
[1:32:56] it's it's almost like it's another
[1:32:58] um neuropathway in us that is so healing
[1:33:02] >> just to hear that language. And um
[1:33:06] recently we we were on a train
[1:33:11] and somebody was rocking Vpop [laughter]
[1:33:14] and they were they were putting it on a
[1:33:16] speaker and all of us just stopped was
[1:33:18] like am I imagining Vietnamese music?
[1:33:20] But then all of us Vietnamese we looked
[1:33:22] at each other and we're like that's
[1:33:23] Vietnamese music. That's Vietnamese
[1:33:25] music. and we communicated with the one
[1:33:27] that was um was playing it and he's half
[1:33:31] uh Puerto Rican
[1:33:33] >> and half Vietnamese. And the moment we
[1:33:35] said we're also Vietnamese, he's like
[1:33:37] [gasps] oh we just connected just like
[1:33:39] that and he was just telling us
[1:33:42] >> so many years he he has been distant
[1:33:46] from that root of his and he's catching
[1:33:48] up now. [sighs]
[1:33:50] >> And that moment for me was really
[1:33:51] healing. It was something so beautiful
[1:33:54] because I think back in my days, my
[1:33:57] younger self, I would want to say like
[1:33:59] I'm not Vietnamese. I don't want to even
[1:34:00] acknowledge that.
[1:34:02] >> But I think there is a turning page in
[1:34:05] our time and especially,
[1:34:07] >> you know, you're you're a poet. You're
[1:34:09] you're a teacher.
[1:34:11] >> You're what?
[1:34:12] >> Something.
[1:34:13] >> You're something. You're a dean. You're
[1:34:15] a scholar.
[1:34:16] >> And I'm a monk. And for us to be who we
[1:34:19] are authentically,
[1:34:21] that is the continuation that Tai and
[1:34:23] our parents, our our mother, our father,
[1:34:26] our ancestor really want us to do, to be
[1:34:30] exactly who we are with all of the
[1:34:33] uniqueness, all of the pain, all the
[1:34:36] suffering, and all of the zooing that we
[1:34:39] have. And I think that's our gift that
[1:34:41] not many can have.
[1:34:43] >> Yeah.
[1:35:12] We still have time, right? because I
[1:35:14] there's one more like maybe two more
[1:35:16] questions I have.
[1:35:17] >> Okay. [laughter]
[1:35:18] >> Okay. Because I think that um just
[1:35:22] listening to both of you guys again, I'm
[1:35:24] just sitting I'm being I'm sandwiched
[1:35:25] between you guys. So then I'm just like,
[1:35:27] you know, ping ponging back and forth of
[1:35:29] in brilliance. And so I I want to kind
[1:35:32] of stay a little bit with in the
[1:35:35] conversation of power, agency, and
[1:35:38] filial piety.
[1:35:40] I think most Vietnamese
[1:35:43] know that song. You know what's
[1:35:49] like
[1:35:52] Yeah, we all know the beginning of it,
[1:35:54] right? Like it's like [singing]
[1:36:03] [singing]
[1:36:06] man
[1:36:11] >> [laughter]
[1:36:12] >> Yeah, we all know that the beginning of
[1:36:15] that song and it's like it is like the
[1:36:18] anthem of filopiety.
[1:36:20] >> Yeah. to really to you know when you
[1:36:23] translate it it's like when you drink
[1:36:24] water you always remember its source
[1:36:27] >> and I think one of the resistance
[1:36:30] perhaps to Vietnamese in general not
[1:36:33] just diasporic community but just
[1:36:36] Vietnam in general as they're
[1:36:38] interfacing a lot with western ideas and
[1:36:40] cultures and and the western gaze is
[1:36:43] that it's so backwards to consistently
[1:36:46] think of going back to your source right
[1:36:49] and there's an assumption.
[1:36:50] >> I have a lot of thoughts on this. Yeah.
[1:36:52] >> Yeah. And your assumption is that when
[1:36:53] you go back to the source, it's kind of
[1:36:55] like the MAGA movement, you know, let's
[1:36:57] just be honest, right? Like the idea is
[1:36:59] like make America great again where
[1:37:00] you're going back to some untouched
[1:37:02] past. But for me when I think about as
[1:37:06] you know when I opened up this question
[1:37:08] about power and agency and filop piety
[1:37:12] when I think about the ways that we were
[1:37:14] raised and we were taught with through
[1:37:16] our the stories of our mothers and
[1:37:18] stories of our teacher the going back to
[1:37:21] the moon going back to the source is
[1:37:23] actually a forward movement. It's not
[1:37:26] this
[1:37:28] illusion or fantasy of going back to an
[1:37:30] untouched past and like just holding up
[1:37:33] and revering
[1:37:35] and this blind obedience to something.
[1:37:38] >> Yeah.
[1:37:39] Um it's the thing that ocean you were
[1:37:42] talking about and brother Fu who were
[1:37:43] talking about the tears the heavy joy of
[1:37:47] your parents of of your mothers and your
[1:37:49] grandmothers and your aunts or the
[1:37:52] sacrifices that you were talking about
[1:37:54] brother Fapu and so I would I you know I
[1:37:56] would be really interested to hearing
[1:37:58] your thoughts on like power agency and
[1:38:01] what does it actually mean what does the
[1:38:03] practice of filopiety mean for those who
[1:38:07] have filopid embedded within their
[1:38:10] cultures and their the language that
[1:38:12] they speak and the songs that they sing.
[1:38:14] >> Yeah.
[1:38:15] >> Yeah. I think about that all the time,
[1:38:18] especially as a professor. I travel. I
[1:38:20] give talks to very young
[1:38:23] Asian-Americans, Asian-American
[1:38:25] student groups.
[1:38:27] And I think that's one thing I always
[1:38:29] warned them. I said, "Do not let white
[1:38:32] boredom of your values dissuade you from
[1:38:36] engaging in your values. Do not let
[1:38:39] white taste turn your values into
[1:38:42] trends, either trendy or non-trendy.
[1:38:46] We're in a very precarious moment right
[1:38:47] now as Asian-Americans because we are
[1:38:49] finally very, very cool.
[1:38:52] And you know, there was a Miyazaki
[1:38:56] anniversary here um at the Brattle
[1:38:59] Theater, 25 years of Spirited Away, and
[1:39:02] the the theater was filled with mostly
[1:39:04] non-Asian kids who were not born in 2001
[1:39:08] enjoying Miyazaki. I never thought I
[1:39:10] would see it. Beautiful. I It was great.
[1:39:12] It was beautiful. But I I as I also know
[1:39:15] the history of this country, what it
[1:39:17] does to to those cultural systems. And I
[1:39:22] think part of me is like, okay, this is
[1:39:24] good,
[1:39:25] but how long until it turns? How long
[1:39:30] until it gets warped into something
[1:39:33] grotesque?
[1:39:34] until it gets stripped of its origins
[1:39:37] and become normalized in ways that um
[1:39:41] deny our own presence. Like it's it it
[1:39:44] might be there might be a future where
[1:39:47] you know there will be um an anime
[1:39:51] convention where Asians are not legible
[1:39:54] in it or what have you, right? Um, so I
[1:39:58] think these things are are on the
[1:40:00] horizon and
[1:40:03] and I think what
[1:40:05] brother Fapu you said so well about
[1:40:07] filopiety in your application of it in
[1:40:11] the monastery with your, you know,
[1:40:15] monastics
[1:40:16] was critical thinking. You're saying
[1:40:19] that's my filop. It's not buying my
[1:40:22] elders a car or doing this and that. And
[1:40:25] I think it's really important for us to
[1:40:27] take these stereotypes that have been
[1:40:30] misunderstood by the white gays or the
[1:40:32] dominant gays because sometimes we
[1:40:35] perpetuate the white gays to each other.
[1:40:38] >> Absolutely.
[1:40:38] >> Right. It's not people of color do it as
[1:40:41] well. That's been a well doumented
[1:40:43] colonial artifact that once the empire
[1:40:47] retreats, its tools, both material and
[1:40:51] psychological
[1:40:53] and um structural, are then picked up
[1:40:56] and implemented often right away to
[1:40:58] abuse each other. And so I think it's
[1:41:02] important to not be swayed by
[1:41:06] that and be stubborn and fierce about
[1:41:10] using it and applying it to yourself and
[1:41:13] and even challenging that boredom.
[1:41:17] I would be like, you know what, y'all
[1:41:19] could use some filop piety.
[1:41:21] >> Mhm. [laughter]
[1:41:22] >> That would if we could have some, you
[1:41:26] know, filop piety and we won't be in the
[1:41:28] the world that we're in. Why do you
[1:41:31] think, you know, honoring elders
[1:41:36] where they are fruitful is a backward
[1:41:39] thing? And if you do, then you're not
[1:41:42] thinking widely enough. I challenge you
[1:41:44] to reconsider it, to rethink it, and not
[1:41:47] take trends wholesale in the same way
[1:41:50] you don't take someone asking you, "Why
[1:41:52] do you write trauma porn?" I was like,
[1:41:54] "Hold on, time out. That question is a
[1:41:56] trap." and I'm going to reject that trap
[1:41:59] and dismantle it and recenter on
[1:42:01] violence. So the question is often
[1:42:04] rigged and I think it's
[1:42:06] important to ask the application. And so
[1:42:09] for myself,
[1:42:11] you know, and also it's important to
[1:42:13] also say some grandmas are narcissistic
[1:42:16] >> Yeah.
[1:42:16] >> Mhm.
[1:42:18] >> Who deserve to not be engaged with that
[1:42:20] exists, right? So it's like we we don't
[1:42:23] reject anything wholesale, but we we
[1:42:26] never, you know, take the white reading
[1:42:30] of it as the final reading. It's really
[1:42:33] interesting because whiteness, the the
[1:42:35] canon never allows its weakest producers
[1:42:39] to inform its existence. It's always the
[1:42:43] the greatest Faulner, Melville,
[1:42:46] Hawthorne. It they never allow It's very
[1:42:49] interesting. They never allow the
[1:42:51] weakest or the poorest producers to have
[1:42:55] any sway on itself. So why should we
[1:42:59] allow the same right? There are moments
[1:43:03] where our our community members air but
[1:43:05] I said well let that that's okay let
[1:43:08] them air and then we will assess amongst
[1:43:10] each other what we should continue and
[1:43:13] the same applies and many people you
[1:43:16] know in media treat my success as a
[1:43:20] writer as a kind of nebulous mysterious
[1:43:23] explosion even using explosive language
[1:43:26] he he he blew up on the scene came out
[1:43:29] of nowhere right And I reject that a lot
[1:43:32] because I say my filopiety
[1:43:36] allowed me to apply filopiety beyond kin
[1:43:41] [clears throat] and towards my mentors
[1:43:43] just like you said brother
[1:43:46] and I learned the schema that you can
[1:43:50] learn from your elders by asking them to
[1:43:52] take you to the root of their own
[1:43:54] knowledge. I was not the student that
[1:43:58] goes to my teachers and says,"I trying
[1:44:01] to do this. Help me get there."
[1:44:04] Right? Many people ask, "How did you
[1:44:06] become a success festival writer?" I
[1:44:07] said, "This I didn't." Most students
[1:44:09] come to the teacher say, "I don't I'm
[1:44:11] paying you. I'm paying tuition. You are
[1:44:13] my servant in a way." I mean, there's
[1:44:16] some some students approach it that way.
[1:44:19] You need to get me to do what I want.
[1:44:21] Instead, I was like, "How did you become
[1:44:23] you? Show me what you value. Then I'm
[1:44:26] going to go to another professor and say
[1:44:28] how show me what you value. Give me your
[1:44:31] root system and I will follow you there
[1:44:34] and I will make affordances there and I
[1:44:38] will celebrate you and understand what
[1:44:40] you have surpass and succumbed and
[1:44:45] then I apply that to myself and now I
[1:44:47] know more about them than I would if I
[1:44:51] were just forcing them to be a
[1:44:54] utilitarian asset to my dreams.
[1:44:58] Because everything I was told about
[1:45:00] success was antithetical to that. People
[1:45:03] told me, "Oh, you want to be a good
[1:45:05] writer? Cut everybody off.
[1:45:08] >> Protect your time. Seize it.
[1:45:12] Stop caring about the little things."
[1:45:14] And I'm like, "Did you forget that being
[1:45:17] a writer
[1:45:18] is moving the tiniest little things
[1:45:21] around all day from commas to words and
[1:45:24] [laughter] periods?
[1:45:26] So the care
[1:45:28] that I do in life
[1:45:30] whether it's with elders or friends or
[1:45:32] community members is preparation
[1:45:36] for the care I will do on the page. It
[1:45:38] is one ecosystem
[1:45:40] >> and while I don't take filopiety as a
[1:45:44] mandate
[1:45:46] I
[1:45:48] investigate it without throwing it away.
[1:45:52] Whether it is trendy or not I don't
[1:45:54] care. And I think a lot about Nina
[1:45:56] Simone,
[1:45:58] >> you know, again, like look to black
[1:46:01] discourse.
[1:46:02] >> Yeah.
[1:46:02] >> Even amongst its disagreements,
[1:46:05] it has been very edifying to me. Um, as
[1:46:09] Asian-American, there's not a single
[1:46:13] question I have asked myself that a
[1:46:15] black writer has not asked on a global
[1:46:17] scale.
[1:46:18] >> The conditions are different, but the
[1:46:21] large questions are the same. And Nina
[1:46:22] Simone in some of her performances when
[1:46:25] the crowd is especially white because of
[1:46:28] the economics of a concert,
[1:46:31] she'll turn her back to that crowd
[1:46:35] to remind them. It's like, I'm not I can
[1:46:38] do that. And they would be so livid.
[1:46:41] People would start shouting.
[1:46:44] And I think about that so often. I think
[1:46:46] what does it mean
[1:46:49] for me to turn my back on the crowd?
[1:46:52] What what would that look like on the
[1:46:53] page, in my thinking, in my life, in my
[1:46:58] communications in order to face myself?
[1:47:02] Because there's an assumption that the
[1:47:04] crowd is the correct place to look.
[1:47:08] And if you look at, you know, meanwhile,
[1:47:11] the world is three-dimensional,
[1:47:12] >> right? What if Nina Small was looking at
[1:47:14] her drummer, [laughter]
[1:47:15] >> right? What a beautiful thing.
[1:47:18] >> Um, and so I think I think a lot about
[1:47:21] that a lot. And I think the the
[1:47:22] stubbornness, one thing my my mother
[1:47:24] would say about Vietnamese people,
[1:47:27] >> lee le, [laughter]
[1:47:31] >> how do you even translate that into
[1:47:32] English?
[1:47:33] >> It's untransatable. I tried. It's not
[1:47:35] exactly disobedience.
[1:47:36] >> No, it's not.
[1:47:37] >> It's more like a stubborn.
[1:47:38] >> It's stubborn.
[1:47:39] >> Stubborn resistance.
[1:47:41] >> Yeah. That's like But Lee is like
[1:47:45] >> unflinching.
[1:47:46] >> Unflinching
[1:47:47] >> because you would say if someone's
[1:47:48] getting like beat and they're not crying
[1:47:51] >> Lee Leo
[1:47:53] >> Leo, right? And so I think about being
[1:47:56] Lee a lot. In in the old Han records,
[1:48:01] they described Vietnamese people as they
[1:48:03] were trying to, you know, it was like a
[1:48:05] it was like a they were trying to
[1:48:08] it was during a time of Chinese
[1:48:09] domination in Vietnam. And they were
[1:48:11] they were sending young Chinese men to
[1:48:15] go marry Vietnamese women, but
[1:48:17] Vietnamese people were so stubborn that
[1:48:20] for generations they couldn't get the
[1:48:22] Chinese men to convert the Vietnamese
[1:48:24] women to become Chinese wives. But the
[1:48:27] Chinese men would become Vietnamese
[1:48:29] husbands and listen to their wives.
[1:48:31] [laughter]
[1:48:32] And they had and they had written that
[1:48:34] Vietnamese people were they they said
[1:48:37] something like they are they have the
[1:48:39] minds of bugs because they refused to be
[1:48:42] civilized in the Confucian ways because
[1:48:45] they were so lee.
[1:48:47] >> Yeah.
[1:48:48] >> Like just
[1:48:49] >> love that for us.
[1:48:50] >> Yeah. Mhm.
[1:48:51] >> Over and over again they kept trying to
[1:48:54] conform us in a particular way but
[1:48:57] conformity wasn't happening.
[1:48:59] >> Yeah.
[1:48:59] >> Or it was happening on surface level and
[1:49:01] then we'd go right back to the source.
[1:49:05] >> Just coming to philopiety. The root
[1:49:08] temple of our tradition is
[1:49:10] >> which is meaning kindness and filop
[1:49:13] piety.
[1:49:14] And I while listening to both of you
[1:49:18] like
[1:49:20] I think one of the most beautiful
[1:49:22] element of Plum Village was this feel of
[1:49:25] piety where everyone knows how to be
[1:49:27] kind to one another and and I've seen it
[1:49:30] switched now in Plum Village where the
[1:49:33] retreat model in in the western world is
[1:49:36] like I'm going to a retreat to to feel
[1:49:38] good about myself. I'm like, "No, you're
[1:49:41] going to a temple." And and I can see
[1:49:44] differences of behavior and attitude
[1:49:47] when somebody comes to Plum Village. If
[1:49:49] they're Vietnamese, for example,
[1:49:52] they would enter into the kitchen and
[1:49:54] just say, "How can I help?"
[1:49:57] >> Because they know that they are not
[1:49:59] monastics. They can't be doing the
[1:50:01] spiritual work. But there are these
[1:50:03] people have been doing this work for
[1:50:05] generations. and I get to come here for
[1:50:07] one week and to learn and to experience
[1:50:10] something that that I don't have to do
[1:50:14] the hard work for. At least I can help
[1:50:16] with the chores. And then in the western
[1:50:19] mind, it's like what's the schedule? If
[1:50:22] it's not service meditation, I'm not
[1:50:24] helping.
[1:50:24] >> Mhm.
[1:50:25] >> I I pay for this.
[1:50:26] >> So, I get to sit here
[1:50:28] >> and be under a tree. But then when they
[1:50:31] actually help us and work with us and
[1:50:35] join join the messiness of the monastery
[1:50:38] which is like washing the pots, sweeping
[1:50:41] the grounds, cleaning the toilets,
[1:50:44] that's when the love comes out because
[1:50:46] it is a shared experience. We're caring
[1:50:49] for this place as if we're caring for
[1:50:51] ourself. For me, I see that as fopy in
[1:50:55] action, right? It's not it's not to
[1:50:57] weaponize it cuz it has been weaponized
[1:50:59] in the Vietnamese culture too like
[1:51:02] you have to be respectful
[1:51:04] >> and like you said there are some people
[1:51:06] like I I don't think they deserve
[1:51:07] [laughter] my respect because they is
[1:51:10] mean
[1:51:11] >> right and but what my heal is that I
[1:51:15] will always bring forward is I will
[1:51:17] never forget where I come from. I'll
[1:51:20] never forget all the people that have
[1:51:22] come here and helped build this
[1:51:24] monastery. A lot of my elders, a lot of
[1:51:26] my mentors are not monastics anymore.
[1:51:29] And some of them, they weren't perfect.
[1:51:31] I got scolded by some of them where I
[1:51:33] felt that was very unjust.
[1:51:36] >> And I was hurt. But when I look deeper,
[1:51:38] I can say, man, they just suffer. They
[1:51:41] don't know how to transform this.
[1:51:43] But I get to be here now. I get to be in
[1:51:46] a monastery where I have a roof that is
[1:51:49] not leaking. When their generation, that
[1:51:51] roof was leaking
[1:51:52] >> and they've done the work. So there is a
[1:51:55] ripple to every action and when I think
[1:51:59] about heal which is felop piety it's
[1:52:02] it's this generous love that I see
[1:52:06] myself a part of something so much more
[1:52:08] than me and so I'm not comparing I'm not
[1:52:11] like doing the math like how much time
[1:52:12] am I putting here so therefore I'm going
[1:52:14] to get respect
[1:52:17] and unfortunately the human mind we love
[1:52:20] calculating things right we love
[1:52:22] comparing we love like associating
[1:52:24] oursel with power with authority because
[1:52:28] I've done that so I want respect
[1:52:31] in our culture which I have learned is
[1:52:34] no respect
[1:52:36] you can't demand it it's just when you
[1:52:39] see virtue in someone's way of being
[1:52:42] that that learning comes forward that
[1:52:46] wanting to be with them comes forward
[1:52:48] and I remember when I wanted to learn in
[1:52:51] plum village
[1:52:53] It's like you have to want to learn it.
[1:52:55] And now today I feel like like sometimes
[1:52:58] I come to a retreat like there's a menu
[1:53:00] who's giving a dhamma talk who I want to
[1:53:03] learn from. But back then in our back in
[1:53:05] our days it's like no that's your
[1:53:07] teacher and when you and it it embeds
[1:53:10] into our culture. Thai wants to bring
[1:53:12] back philopiety. When your teacher come
[1:53:15] into the hall everybody stand up and
[1:53:18] greet the teacher. Whether that teacher
[1:53:21] is going to make you enlightened or not,
[1:53:23] but he's or she or them is going to give
[1:53:26] their attention to all of you for an
[1:53:29] hour and a half.
[1:53:30] >> You stand up to show your respect. And I
[1:53:34] I I've been meditating on like what our
[1:53:38] culture globally is also lacking out is
[1:53:41] is some rituals to have philopiety, to
[1:53:45] have love, to have respect. is like the
[1:53:48] motion of like gratitude for something
[1:53:51] that is there. And this is where the
[1:53:53] spiritual comes in and I've learned and
[1:53:55] I've practiced it. It's like this mo
[1:53:58] today, you know, before coming to this
[1:54:00] podcast, I lit an incense at the altar
[1:54:03] where Tai's photo is and I said, "Ty,
[1:54:07] us Vietnamese were coming together to
[1:54:09] have a discussion."
[1:54:11] And I I'm honoring you because somehow
[1:54:15] you you were the threat that brought all
[1:54:17] of us together and thank you for being
[1:54:20] there and be with us. It's a very ritual
[1:54:23] practice, but it's very real for me. But
[1:54:26] when I come here, this is very sacred.
[1:54:29] This conversation, this presence of each
[1:54:31] and every one of us. And I think this is
[1:54:34] also heal in action. You're remembering
[1:54:38] of those that have come before you and
[1:54:41] knowing that now we are moving them
[1:54:43] forward. We do it with sacred action,
[1:54:46] sacred speeches, sacred motion. And for
[1:54:49] me that is a fetto pai that is very
[1:54:54] concrete and we can offer on a daily
[1:54:57] basis.
[1:54:58] >> Beautiful.
[1:55:01] I have one last question while we're
[1:55:04] we're on this uh we're on this subject
[1:55:06] and I think it's a good closing question
[1:55:08] for for all of us to to contemplate. Um,
[1:55:13] you know, we began the we began our
[1:55:15] conversation
[1:55:17] talking about inheritance continuation
[1:55:21] because this was in honor of Tai's 100th
[1:55:23] birthday. And I think all three of us,
[1:55:26] we were exposed to Buddhism through our
[1:55:29] parents. And in fact, that was the best
[1:55:32] that they could offer us
[1:55:34] >> in terms of ways in which we can get in
[1:55:37] touch with our Vietnamese where we can
[1:55:40] be in community. I think one time I
[1:55:42] heard Ocean, I heard you speak about
[1:55:44] where our Vietnamese, the spoken
[1:55:46] Vietnamese language was never
[1:55:48] interrupted. It was in the temple first
[1:55:49] and foremost cuz everything you heard,
[1:55:52] everything you spoke, everything was in
[1:55:54] Vietnamese and it was continuous. There
[1:55:56] was a flow. You didn't have to code
[1:55:58] switch then. you were just in in a flow
[1:56:00] in that moment. And so the act of our
[1:56:04] parents bringing us to a temple so that
[1:56:06] we could remember who we were we were
[1:56:08] even though we never knew who we were
[1:56:10] cuz we never were exposed or at least I
[1:56:13] was never exposed to Vietnam before uh I
[1:56:17] was born in the States and so I I never
[1:56:19] knew what Vietnam was like before that.
[1:56:22] Um, for our parents that was an act of
[1:56:25] filial piety to their parents
[1:56:28] to to let them know that oh we're doing
[1:56:31] our best to raise the next generation
[1:56:35] in honor of you and um and so through
[1:56:40] our parents we were exposed to the
[1:56:42] dharma through dharma we have our
[1:56:43] teacher thai and we're here in this
[1:56:45] moment and so I wonder if
[1:56:48] there was if you could write a love
[1:56:51] letter
[1:56:54] to those who have loved you into being,
[1:56:56] whether that be your parent or your
[1:56:59] mother, your grandmother, or even Thai.
[1:57:01] What would you say to them?
[1:57:08] Come on. [snorts]
[1:57:11] It's that simple. Thank you for
[1:57:15] surviving. And surviving is not a
[1:57:18] passive act. It's a creative act. It's a
[1:57:22] It's a making. One makes one's survival.
[1:57:26] One doesn't survive like driftwood
[1:57:29] waiting for something to pick it up. You
[1:57:31] make your own survival.
[1:57:34] And I think in in that sense, Vietnamese
[1:57:38] community in the diaspora are survival
[1:57:41] artists. [snorts]
[1:57:43] you know, to take almost nothing and
[1:57:47] turn it into a place to be and stand
[1:57:50] even if it cannot be seen. And I think
[1:57:53] that then this becomes like a a home, a
[1:57:56] spirit,
[1:57:58] you know, that that spirit is of of
[1:58:01] surviving and passing something on. And
[1:58:04] that's what, you know, we're doing here.
[1:58:07] you know, y'all and brother Fabu and Ann
[1:58:10] here, y'all somehow decided to do this
[1:58:14] podcast and to pass it to turn your life
[1:58:18] into a conductor
[1:58:21] of energy
[1:58:22] just like a telephone pole is a
[1:58:25] conductor. And and where does that why
[1:58:28] where does that come from? Y'all could
[1:58:29] have just stayed home and hung out,
[1:58:31] right? But you know to do this without
[1:58:37] not for profit or for gain or for fame
[1:58:40] but to become a conductor to lay your
[1:58:43] body down
[1:58:45] physically, mentally, metaphorically so
[1:58:48] that the information can transmit so
[1:58:50] that the the chain cannot be broken.
[1:58:53] You have to be that chain.
[1:58:56] And
[1:58:58] that's
[1:59:00] I'm I'm in awe of that. So I think for
[1:59:02] me it's like gratitude gum and awe
[1:59:06] >> because it defies logic of survival.
[1:59:10] It defies everything that capitalism
[1:59:13] tells us the corporate model should be
[1:59:16] which is a ruthless efficient system of
[1:59:19] profit. That to do anything for
[1:59:23] altruism, [clears throat] for
[1:59:26] plentitude, to share, to presume there
[1:59:30] is abundance is to upset the natural law
[1:59:35] of profit.
[1:59:37] And to be brought up by the system and
[1:59:41] y'all being born here and then rejected
[1:59:45] in this way feels like such a leum.
[1:59:51] thing to do.
[1:59:52] >> Yeah. Just to just to say the um gam to
[1:59:57] bo to Maya to Thai for
[2:00:01] surviving and giving us so much love
[2:00:05] despite the hard work that they had to
[2:00:08] go through and the rejections that they
[2:00:10] also face. And um
[2:00:15] in this moment, I just know they're all
[2:00:17] smiling and I feel so full and at ease
[2:00:21] and and um proud.
[2:00:25] Proud. And I'm not sure if they were
[2:00:27] able to feel proud, but
[2:00:29] I'm feeling proud for them.
[2:00:31] >> Yeah.
[2:00:32] >> Beautiful. More.
[2:00:34] Come on.
[2:00:43] Well, dear friends, this comes to the
[2:00:45] end of the conversation. I hope you
[2:00:48] enjoyed it and I'm so grateful for Ocean
[2:00:50] and Y for their availability and their
[2:00:53] openness in today's sharing. If you
[2:00:55] enjoyed this podcast, please know that
[2:00:57] there are so many more in the series The
[2:00:59] Way Out is in. You can find us on Apple
[2:01:02] podcast, on Spotify, on any other
[2:01:05] platforms that carry podcast and
[2:01:07] especially our Plum Village app. And
[2:01:09] this podcast is brought to you by the
[2:01:11] Tiknihan Foundation as well as Global
[2:01:14] Optimism and all the donors that have
[2:01:16] been supporting. If you would like to
[2:01:18] see us continue, please visit
[2:01:20] www.tnhf.org/donate.
[2:01:25] know that this podcast there are no
[2:01:26] advertisement there are no sponsorship
[2:01:28] so every donation really supports the
[2:01:30] team and the production of the podcast
[2:01:34] and today we would like to give our
[2:01:36] gratitude to Ann who is sound engineer
[2:01:39] and recorder as well as the whole team
[2:01:42] behind and of course my co-artner who is
[2:01:45] not here but is supporting in spirit Joe
[2:01:47] Kfino Clay aka the podfather kata our
[2:01:52] co-producer and the founder of the plum
[2:01:54] village app as well as the whole team
[2:01:56] behind Anka, Jasmine, and Cindy who do
[2:02:00] all the social media and all the
[2:02:01] uploading so that everybody can have
[2:02:03] access to the [music] podcast. And of
[2:02:05] course to everyone who is part of the
[2:02:07] podcast family, thank you so much for
[2:02:09] continuing to tune in and to listen to
[2:02:12] every episode. We know you are there
[2:02:14] [music] and we are so happy.
[2:02:17] Thank you and see you next time.
[2:02:20] [music]
[2:02:23] >> [singing]
[2:02:25] [music]
[2:02:29] >> The way out is in.
[2:02:36] [music]