Transcript
[0:01] [music]
[0:05] [music] Michael, it's good to see you
[0:07] again. I think it's been a several
[0:08] years.
[0:10] >> Seems like it. Yeah, been a while.
[0:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I was trying to
[0:14] think back [music] on where I might have
[0:17] crossed paths with you. And you we
[0:18] didn't really meet, but I remember
[0:20] seeing you at this festival.
[0:23] It was in Oregon. I think it was called
[0:25] Beloved.
[0:25] >> The Beloved Festival. Yeah.
[0:27] >> Yeah. Yeah, you were off doing your
[0:29] thing and I was like, it's Michael me.
[0:32] Oh my god.
[0:33] >> Yeah, I missed that festival.
[0:36] >> Yeah,
[0:36] >> there was such good music from all
[0:38] around the world and
[0:39] >> really a good sudden community would
[0:41] form.
[0:42] >> Yeah, I missed that one.
[0:43] >> Absolutely.
[0:44] >> That was a big time of co really
[0:46] >> like so many things and um
[0:50] >> I think tangentally at least we'll get
[0:51] into that but uh where where do we find
[0:54] you today?
[0:55] >> Where am I living? Yeah. Where where are
[0:57] you in this wonderful
[0:59] >> Basson Island?
[1:02] >> Just west of Seattle, floating in the
[1:05] middle of Puget Sound.
[1:07] >> Is that also where Paul Steammits hails
[1:10] from? Or is he on the
[1:12] >> No, different island.
[1:13] >> He's in Oregon, I think,
[1:15] >> but I'm not sure. He's not on Bashan.
[1:17] >> All right. Maybe it's Salt Spring. Is
[1:19] that another one up there?
[1:20] >> Well, Salt Spring is in uh up in
[1:22] Vancouver, BC.
[1:24] >> Okay. But some connection between Salt
[1:27] Spring and Ba Bashon because I'm always
[1:29] >> meeting people or people are coming on
[1:31] to events online from Salt Spring.
[1:34] >> Yeah.
[1:34] >> Yeah. It's another unique island I
[1:36] think.
[1:38] [snorts]
[1:38] >> Yeah. So
[1:40] since you're very prolific in your books
[1:42] and I have to confess I got to tell you
[1:44] this story. When when your team reached
[1:47] out about having this conversation I was
[1:50] definitely internally a yes. And then uh
[1:53] it was a long time ago and somehow or
[1:56] another uh I was sent a book and I'm
[1:59] like fantastic and the book arrives and
[2:01] you know eventually I pick it up and I
[2:04] start reading it and I was really into
[2:06] the book and it's right up my alley for
[2:10] a lot of things that I like and I I was
[2:12] into this and then I think last night I
[2:16] thought all right um I'm almost not
[2:18] quite done here so I need to do a little
[2:19] more research. So, I started doing
[2:20] research and I realized it was your last
[2:22] book. I got the wrong They sent the
[2:25] wrong book. And so, I
[2:27] I know that book real well. So,
[2:31] I dug up the one on the shelf there, The
[2:33] Heart of Transformation. I found like,
[2:35] oh, there's a PDF. It was actually my
[2:36] fault. It was deeper in the emails from
[2:38] a long time ago, and I started digging
[2:40] into that.
[2:41] >> Um, but there's crossover, right? I
[2:43] mean, these are these are
[2:44] >> they're related.
[2:46] >> Absolutely. So,
[2:47] >> I want them on the same island.
[2:48] [laughter]
[2:49] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but it's it's
[2:52] stuff that I think about a lot. And so I
[2:55] think you're writing a lot to me about
[2:58] transformation.
[3:00] And
[3:00] >> yeah,
[3:01] >> this is a phrase you said and I want to
[3:03] ask start with this about transformation
[3:05] being a core dynamic of the cosmos.
[3:08] >> All right. Now I think about that with
[3:10] the human experience, but can you tie
[3:12] that please? What do you mean the cosmos
[3:15] itself and transformation being a core
[3:17] dynamic?
[3:18] >> Okay. So cosmos is
[3:23] well most people think about the galaxy
[3:26] and what's happening is stars are being
[3:29] born and being dying and being born and
[3:32] so transformation
[3:35] which is different from change right you
[3:37] can change your mind several times a day
[3:39] you can't transform your life several
[3:41] times a day transformation literally
[3:43] means to move from one form or stage of
[3:46] life to another so in the galaxy the
[3:49] stars [snorts] uh you know they're born
[3:53] and then they die and then other stars
[3:55] are born and so the core okay there's an
[3:59] old idea
[4:01] um and it falls into the category of
[4:04] open secrets so there's re there's
[4:06] secrets in the world but the most
[4:08] interesting ones are open secrets
[4:10] >> and the core mystery of the world is
[4:13] life death and renewal or life death and
[4:16] rebirth Earth.
[4:18] So the very stars that we see at night
[4:22] are going through a process of death and
[4:24] renewal. So the cosmos is renewing
[4:27] itself all the time and it's doing it in
[4:29] in long periods of time. So we don't see
[4:32] that but that's what's happening. So
[4:35] then you go from uh cosmos to nature
[4:39] which is the other big dynamic that's
[4:41] all around us. And nature is the core of
[4:44] nature is life, death and renewal. You
[4:47] think about a forest. The forest grows
[4:49] up and the tallest trees stretch right
[4:52] towards the sun and then for some reason
[4:54] they stop and then they lose their
[4:57] energy and they collapse and they rot
[4:59] back into the earth. And down in the
[5:01] earth there's roots and seeds. And those
[5:04] trees that have fallen nurture the seeds
[5:06] that are about to come up nurture the
[5:08] trees that are going to come up. And so
[5:10] nature is constantly life, death,
[5:12] renewal.
[5:14] And then modern people think that our
[5:16] nature is separate from nature. That's
[5:18] one of the big failings of the modern
[5:20] world. Um when secretly human nature is
[5:23] connected to nature and we are here at
[5:27] our souls are here to transform just
[5:30] like nature, just like the cosmos. We're
[5:33] here to transform. This is also within
[5:36] the context of it's what I would call
[5:39] like a soul centric viewpoint of being a
[5:42] human being. And I I'm just a little
[5:44] curious like you know I come a little
[5:45] more from
[5:46] >> hanging out in the Bakti world a bit
[5:48] with Ramd Doss and and then I also hang
[5:51] out like
[5:52] >> um
[5:54] I I I was really into this book called
[5:56] Journey of Souls that is sort of but it
[5:59] very much is kind of how I see life and
[6:02] but I'm just curious like how you came
[6:05] to that point of view of what I'm
[6:07] calling a soul centric view because it
[6:08] is sort of the backbone of a lot of this
[6:11] thinking.
[6:13] Yeah. Well, I came to it originally uh
[6:16] through mythology.
[6:18] So, on my 13th birthday, um I my aunt
[6:22] got me a book. Um she had asked me what
[6:25] I was interested in and I said uh
[6:28] history uh cuz I was at 13. I was
[6:31] growing up in New York City and I was
[6:33] curious what the hell happened? Why does
[6:36] everybody in my neighborhood, all the
[6:38] adults seem to have lost their dreams of
[6:41] life and and all the young people are
[6:43] fighting with each other? What the hell
[6:45] happened? So, I thought history might
[6:46] explain it. She went to get me a history
[6:49] book. She was a notoriously short person
[6:51] and they pointed her to the shelf and
[6:53] she reached a book and wrapped it. She
[6:55] gave it to me [snorts] and I'm taking
[6:57] the wrapper off and she's going, "Oh,
[6:58] it's the wrong book." And I'm seeing
[7:00] this flying horse with a guy sitting on
[7:02] it shooting an arrow and I'm going, "No,
[7:04] I want this book." and she came, "It's a
[7:06] wrong book, but I want it." And I tear
[7:08] the rest of the paper off and it says,
[7:09] "Mythology by Edith Hamilton." I read
[7:12] that almost entire book that first
[7:14] night. And I found a language of the
[7:17] soul because mythology is a language of
[7:20] the soul. And I found all these stories
[7:22] like Jason and the Argonauts. I was in a
[7:24] local gang [snorts] and and you know,
[7:26] you had to be in a gang or else you was
[7:28] the victim of gangs. And so, uh, but I'm
[7:30] reading about Jason and the Argonauts,
[7:32] and I'm thinking, "Oh, that's what our
[7:33] gang is, or that's what it's supposed to
[7:35] be." And I was having all these
[7:37] revelations and the idea that our souls
[7:40] are connected not just to the ancient
[7:42] past historically, but to the source of
[7:44] life. I found that all out when I was
[7:47] 13.
[7:48] >> And I remember going around telling
[7:49] everybody, and everybody [clears throat]
[7:50] thought I was crazy. And so, I never I
[7:53] didn't get a confirmation of that. And
[7:54] like a lot of people, I had the insight
[7:57] at a young age. And it took me about 20
[7:59] years to really realize that no, this is
[8:02] what my life is about is about the soul.
[8:06] The soul is the connective tissue of
[8:08] life and instinctively I'm a storyteller
[8:11] and stories are all really about the
[8:13] soul and and how we connect to nature
[8:16] and connect to each other. So I got my
[8:19] induction into it at 13 and by the time
[8:23] I was in my middle 30s I had realized
[8:25] that my life is about storytelling and
[8:28] music by the way because I tell I play
[8:30] African drums while I tell stories. So
[8:33] somehow that came together and and of
[8:35] course that's soulful traditions and
[8:38] then I als I also always love poets and
[8:41] poetry which is another soulful. So,
[8:43] that's how I get there. And I'm I'm the
[8:46] same age as uh KD. We've had a few
[8:49] interesting conversations. Come He comes
[8:52] from the Bronx. I come from Queens and
[8:54] and Manhattan. But we actually come from
[8:56] the same background in an interesting
[8:57] way.
[8:57] >> Wow.
[9:00] Hey friends, just want to let you know
[9:02] that I'm going to be on tour in [music]
[9:04] Europe soon. Are you in Europe? Near
[9:06] Europe? Because I'll be at the Misti
[9:08] Festival in Lisbon, Munich, Germany,
[9:10] [music] and Warsaw, Poland.
[9:13] coming right up November 18th, [music]
[9:15] 24th, and 28th. And then we're coming
[9:17] back in February and going to be in
[9:20] places [music] the the starting February
[9:22] 2nd in Dublin, Bristol, London, [music]
[9:25] Stockholm, Zurich, Berlin, Lithuania,
[9:28] Zagreb. Just got a ticket link going
[9:31] live, maybe Amsterdam. [music] So go to
[9:34] eastforest.org/tick
[9:36] and get your ticket now. And I look
[9:39] forward to seeing you out there [music]
[9:40] on the road.
[9:42] So I think we've been told or I feel
[9:45] intuitively like the soul awakening on
[9:47] the individual level uh that that you
[9:50] know that that matters [laughter] and I
[9:53] think we're told a very different story
[9:54] maybe the opposite of that and so I
[9:56] think it's something we could I'd love
[9:58] to hear you talk about or address.
[10:00] >> Yes.
[10:01] >> So one way to look at it is that you
[10:04] can't change society at the level that
[10:07] the problems have developed. You have
[10:10] you have to be in a different level to
[10:12] change that level. And then as we
[10:15] started talking about the soul, the
[10:19] individual soul is one of the most
[10:21] important things in the world. Not that
[10:23] it makes us special or better than but
[10:27] because it's unique. So in in the book I
[10:29] talk about how each soul that enters the
[10:32] world is unique never to be seen again.
[10:35] And each soul that enters the world is
[10:37] gifted and aimed. And the question is
[10:39] whether the person's going to awaken to
[10:41] what their gifts are and respond to the
[10:44] calling in their life that gives them
[10:46] their aim and their purpose. Um and so
[10:50] um when we want to really change culture
[10:54] uh which you can also see as a change of
[10:55] a world view. In other words, the
[10:58] western world view that has been
[11:01] dominant for a while is now dying. it it
[11:04] doesn't it's not sustainable anyway but
[11:07] also it's just fading and the
[11:08] institutions are becoming hollow and you
[11:11] cannot res renew at that level the
[11:14] awakening of the individual soul when
[11:16] enough souls awaken um that's when
[11:20] culture changes and so this throws
[11:22] everything in the enlightenment western
[11:25] world theory upside down because going
[11:27] back to where we started from the soul
[11:29] is connected to the cosmos modern people
[11:32] have fallen out of cosmology. All
[11:35] traditional cultures all around the
[11:37] world, a tribe on the Amazon River that
[11:39] has 120 people will have its own
[11:42] cosmology and will have its own
[11:44] mythology. In other words, those things
[11:47] are essential to being human and we have
[11:51] disconnected from them. In the middle
[11:53] middle part of the book is about rights
[11:55] of passage because rights of passage is
[11:57] the process through which each young
[11:59] person would be introduced
[12:02] um to the heart of nature and to the
[12:04] pulse of the cosmos. It wasn't that
[12:06] you'd get initiated and become an adult.
[12:08] Those are modern ideas. The idea was you
[12:11] become an initiated to who you are and
[12:14] how you are secretly secretly
[12:16] interconnected with everything. [snorts]
[12:18] And so the soul was a key important
[12:20] element. And then there's another part
[12:22] in the book where I talk about the
[12:24] Renaissance
[12:26] because renaissance means renewal or
[12:29] rebirth. And the last time we had a
[12:32] renaissance that was recognized was in,
[12:35] you know, back in the 1400s. And the
[12:38] Renaissance came after the dark ages. As
[12:41] if to say you go into darkness before
[12:44] you can awaken to a a new way of seeing
[12:47] the world and even seeing your own life.
[12:50] And in the Renaissance, it wasn't that
[12:52] people were walking around saying, "Oh,
[12:53] we all have to paint differently." It
[12:55] was individuals saying, "I'm going to
[12:57] paint this way. No one has seen it
[12:58] before. I'm going to do it." Others were
[13:00] saying, "I'm going to do architecture
[13:02] differently." Others were saying, "I'm
[13:03] going to do science differently." And
[13:05] so, it was the awakening of the
[13:07] individual souls, many of we whom we
[13:10] know as as people to revere like
[13:13] Michelangelo and many other people. Um,
[13:17] and the Renaissance was a renewal of
[13:19] ancient knowledge. It it was called the
[13:22] revival of Platonism, the revival of old
[13:25] Greek mythology. And the idea that
[13:27] wisdom resided in the soul, that wisdom
[13:29] wasn't an experience you had. It's an
[13:32] awakening from within. And so, the
[13:34] Renaissance is the last time we had
[13:36] that. And I think we're at the end of a
[13:38] world view. And we haven't yet seen the
[13:41] world that's coming. So, we're in the
[13:43] middle space um of darkness and
[13:45] uncertainty and not knowing. And that's
[13:48] exactly where change happens. And the
[13:51] not knowing, if we accept we don't know
[13:53] what's coming next, we're closer to
[13:55] awakening to who we are and and why
[13:58] we're here.
[14:01] >> What What's the difference to you
[14:02] between fate and destiny? Just so we can
[14:04] define that.
[14:06] >> So, I wrote a book on that. and and and
[14:09] that was me struggling with the idea of
[14:11] limitation, right? So that we all have
[14:14] limits. To be born is to have limits.
[14:16] You have to be born in a place. You have
[14:18] to be born at a time. You have to be
[14:20] born to a family. And all of those
[14:21] things are somewhat limiting. So fate is
[14:26] is the old idea not that everything is
[14:27] predetermined. That's a modern
[14:29] misunderstanding of fate. Actually, the
[14:31] word fate means to be tied by a thread
[14:34] that is threaded into the world in a
[14:36] specific way. And so our fate, we begin
[14:39] with our limitations. Nowadays, people
[14:42] think about DNA and your DNA is going to
[14:45] make you predisposed to certain diseases
[14:47] and all that kind. Well, the ancient
[14:49] people thought of that as fate. Um, and
[14:51] so fate is what limits us. Destiny is
[14:55] what calls to us to transform beyond the
[14:58] limits uh of our fate. And then there's
[15:01] there's a thing called the twist of
[15:03] fate. And the twist of fate is when we
[15:06] accept our fate like you know all right
[15:08] damn it I'm I'm this person I'm this
[15:10] size I'm this way if I accept that then
[15:14] all of a sudden you get the twist of
[15:15] fate and it reveals the destiny and the
[15:18] destiny is like the word destination
[15:21] it's what we're called towards and and
[15:24] again I'm saying these old things about
[15:26] the soul each human soul is valuable and
[15:29] important because it has dignity to
[15:31] begin with it has nobility it has gifts
[15:33] and aims and it has a destiny. And when
[15:36] people are living their destiny, that's
[15:38] all the people that we we revere and
[15:40] that we love or we we um use as models.
[15:44] They're all people that lived into their
[15:47] uh they accepted their fate and lived
[15:48] into their destiny. And this is a time
[15:52] where we are struggling with fate and
[15:54] destiny. All the cultures in the world
[15:56] are now polarized and struggling. But
[15:59] like the recent election in the United
[16:01] States was a transformational, they call
[16:04] it a change election. It was more than
[16:05] change. It was transformational. And
[16:08] I've been saying when we're in the
[16:10] polarization, we're closer to
[16:12] transformation. When we're in the
[16:14] darkness of not knowing, we're closer to
[16:16] awakening.
[16:18] >> Well, hopefully that's some kind of
[16:19] solace for such a stressful time. I mean
[16:22] what do you think are the the biggest
[16:24] factors that are holding individuals
[16:26] back typically today in modernity from
[16:29] their destiny?
[16:31] >> Well, the first thing starts with not
[16:33] knowing that everyone is gifted and
[16:35] named. We have forgotten really major
[16:39] things and so the most people if you
[16:42] talk to them think they're empty inside
[16:45] or that they are an accidental person in
[16:48] a big accidental universe. I'm telling
[16:50] you to be modern is to be lost because
[16:53] we've lost so much. Like when they were
[16:56] changing astronomy, it went through a
[16:58] series of things. Everybody thought the
[17:00] earth is at the center. Then they
[17:01] thought the sun is at the center. Then
[17:03] they got better telescopes and they said
[17:05] there is no center. And they
[17:07] misunderstood what they were seeing.
[17:09] It's not that there's no center. It's
[17:11] that the center is everywhere.
[17:13] Wherever you are, you are really close
[17:15] to the center if you are awake and and
[17:17] aware. So they misunderstood what they
[17:20] were seeing because they were seeing it
[17:21] literally. So a modern person thinks
[17:24] they're born into an accidental universe
[17:27] and that would make you an accidental
[17:29] person. The two big views of the nature
[17:33] of the human soul are one the Latin is
[17:36] tabularasa. The soul is blank. You're
[17:40] born your family writes on you. Your
[17:42] siblings write on you. The kids at
[17:44] school write on you. The neighborhood
[17:46] writes on you. Eventually, you're the
[17:47] sum of all those things written on you.
[17:50] That's one story. The other story is
[17:52] you're born as a unique person with not
[17:55] just gifted, but you're aimed. And that
[17:57] we're all called to do something
[17:59] meaningful in life. It doesn't mean
[18:01] everybody's going to be loud and
[18:03] expressive. It means everybody has
[18:05] meaning and everybody can have purpose.
[18:08] >> Yeah. It sounds like you're saying that
[18:12] expressing your unique gifts is the
[18:14] critical element to really the
[18:17] transformation that wants to occur
[18:19] collectively.
[18:21] >> Yes.
[18:22] >> So if that's true
[18:25] like that does go against in many ways
[18:27] the con the current out there. It's like
[18:30] it's not about scale,
[18:33] right? And and that's hard because we're
[18:36] in a very quantified world where
[18:38] everything is about scale. I mean,
[18:39] matter of fact, and you can't deny that
[18:42] like something bigger is physically
[18:43] bigger. Like the richest man in the
[18:45] world, we all it's like that guy's has
[18:47] trillion dollars. Look at the power he
[18:48] has. And people, it changes the way you
[18:50] think about what is the purpose of life
[18:52] and what am I trying to attain. And yet
[18:55] Ramdas had that wonderful line about the
[18:56] real work being in the privacy of your
[18:58] own heart. It just when you say it, it
[19:01] just you're just like you know the truth
[19:04] in the privacy of your own heart. Yes.
[19:06] >> But it's not validated elsewhere. And so
[19:08] I'm just I want to just double click on
[19:11] that about today. You know, people are
[19:13] like
[19:13] >> they're they're anestizing we all are
[19:15] anesthetizing ourselves on one hand as a
[19:17] way to deal with everything.
[19:20] >> But that message we're anestizing
[19:21] ourselves with is that it's about the
[19:23] other. It's about scale. It's about, you
[19:25] know,
[19:26] >> no. Well, and and once we know
[19:28] ourselves, we're more open to others.
[19:32] >> A person who doesn't know themselves has
[19:35] to otherize other people to feel safe. A
[19:39] person because everyone is born with
[19:41] dignity and nobility. The more we know
[19:44] ourselves, the more respectful we are of
[19:47] other people and the more we can imagine
[19:49] them finding their gifts and living
[19:51] their destiny. So it's really critical
[19:54] to individual life and to social human
[19:56] society. But you know you're mentioning
[19:59] Ram Das and I think we already mentioned
[20:01] Krishna Das. So what are the stories
[20:04] there? I mean those were American youth
[20:08] that went off to India and learned the
[20:10] the ancient traditions of India which
[20:13] are based on the idea that what the
[20:16] knowledge you're looking for is inside
[20:17] you. that stuff they brought they were
[20:20] amongst the people bringing really
[20:23] eastern mythology and psychology and
[20:26] philosophy into the west. It was really
[20:28] important because the west was
[20:30] pretending what you're looking for is
[20:32] outside you
[20:33] >> and so that they were the they were
[20:36] crossing the river of time to bring
[20:38] ancient stuff into contemporary American
[20:40] awareness and it has worked. I mean, you
[20:43] know, every uh strip mall center has a
[20:47] yoga studio now. Something really
[20:49] happened and and the west was ready for
[20:52] this because the the west on its own
[20:54] becomes neihilistic.
[20:56] It becomes fatalistic
[20:58] and and the east is not that way. But
[21:01] the same ideas you could find in ancient
[21:03] India uh you can also find in tribal
[21:06] groups in indigenous places around the
[21:08] world too. It's what I call the open
[21:11] secrets about the heart and about
[21:14] purpose and about meaning and about
[21:16] giftedness you know because you know and
[21:19] going back to Krishna Das and going back
[21:22] to um kind of a core thing about the
[21:25] heart because kran and that kind of
[21:28] music is from the heart bakti is heart
[21:31] and so the tradition in bakti india had
[21:34] had the cast and they had a lot of stuff
[21:35] that wasn't that healthy but bakti
[21:38] everybody was invited and everybody was
[21:40] equal. And so the fact that that came
[21:43] over here and has become a thing here is
[21:46] not accidental. It actually resonates
[21:49] with the deep sense that you were
[21:50] referring to where you know something at
[21:52] your heart and you really don't need a
[21:54] bunch of people to tell you what's right
[21:56] right and what's wrong. There's things
[21:58] we know. And the book, the new book is
[22:02] called the heart of transformation
[22:04] because it's a heart change that changes
[22:07] everything. And I refer to it as the
[22:09] heart within the heart which would be
[22:12] the essence of bakti as well as the
[22:14] essence of imagination creativity.
[22:19] Hey friends, I released a new record.
[22:21] It's called Held 10. It is the 10th
[22:23] anniversary edition [music] of my album
[22:25] Held. That's an album I did well 2016 as
[22:28] it would be. The math would have it. And
[22:31] I just want to let you know that I
[22:32] released a brand new vinyl for it. But I
[22:34] I pulled [music] up the original
[22:36] sessions, remixed it myself, and we
[22:39] remastered it with Taylor Depris. So,
[22:41] this is not some AI thing where we just
[22:44] threw it up and changed [music] some
[22:46] thing to call it a remaster. This is a
[22:48] true remaster and a true vinyl remaster.
[22:52] So, the new vinyl is only 500 copies.
[22:54] [music] They are they have little gold
[22:56] foil numbers on them, so they are
[22:58] stamped. And if you want to get your
[23:00] copy before they're gone, [music]
[23:02] they are shipping right now. They're
[23:04] just coming into my house this week. So
[23:06] by the time this airs, uh, we should
[23:08] ship yours [music] out, too.
[23:10] Eastforest.org
[23:12] is where you can get a link to the shop.
[23:14] And we're even doing some bundles where
[23:16] you can get the vinyl, the piano sheet
[23:20] music, which has a bunch of the held
[23:21] songs, [music] and the held perfume oil.
[23:24] That is the third of my three perfume
[23:26] oils that I sell. So, there's a little
[23:28] savings if you'd like a early gift for
[23:30] yourself or someone else. Uh, and plenty
[23:32] more things in the shop if you want to
[23:34] get your holiday shopping done early. We
[23:36] appreciate the support. [music] Thank
[23:37] you so much. Yeah.
[23:40] So, do you think that if if it's like
[23:43] the essence of incarnating is
[23:45] transformation? Like that is the point
[23:47] of campus earth in a way is to
[23:50] fundamentally we're constantly that
[23:52] we're here to take something that is and
[23:54] transform it into whatever is next. And
[23:57] that's a messy process and probably an
[23:59] uncomfortable process in its nature. And
[24:02] yet we always have this viewpoint I
[24:04] think from where we stand that oh this
[24:07] is the craziest time we've ever anyone's
[24:09] ever lived or something. But I don't
[24:11] know it's probably always you know the
[24:13] dark ages. It's always been pretty nuts.
[24:15] Uh I would imagine you just knew less
[24:17] information around you. But do you think
[24:19] that's it? Like if we kind of accept our
[24:22] fates of that you're here to
[24:25] fundamentally get into that crysalis and
[24:27] become something new. That is the point.
[24:30] >> That is the point.
[24:32] >> We [laughter] we we are here
[24:34] >> get to it.
[24:35] >> We are here to descend,
[24:37] not ascend simply. We're here to descend
[24:41] into interior darkness.
[24:44] um in order to find cuz an ancient
[24:47] definition of the soul was the light
[24:49] hidden in the dark.
[24:51] >> So there's a light hidden in the depth
[24:53] of ourselves
[24:54] >> that that the western world forgot about
[24:57] even though it knew it. The Renaissance
[24:59] knew it. Um and so the gifts that we
[25:02] were talking about that are natural to a
[25:04] people are in the deepest part of the
[25:06] psyche and so are the wounds in the
[25:08] deepest part of the psyche. So in the
[25:10] middle of the book I take rights of
[25:12] passage which was a traditional thing
[25:14] that happened all around the world. It
[25:16] was an archetypal thing as a model for
[25:19] understanding how it is that we would
[25:22] have to go into darkness in order to
[25:25] awaken and how the awakening would be an
[25:27] awakening of a unique person. Um and so
[25:31] rights of passage is a pretty simple
[25:33] thing and it used to exist all around
[25:35] the world and it begins with separation.
[25:38] Right? So the at the end of childhood um
[25:41] the developmental process in western
[25:43] psychology is brilliant. They really
[25:45] know what's happening to the infant,
[25:47] what's happening to the 2-year-old and
[25:48] all that stuff. But at around 13 or so,
[25:51] the development that developmental
[25:52] process is useless because the next step
[25:55] is not developmental. It's
[25:57] transformational. And so a person goes
[25:59] from being a child and now they're no
[26:01] longer a child. And they don't go from
[26:04] being a child to a responsible adult.
[26:06] That's a modern fantasy. It's a really
[26:08] not a good one. The idea is not to
[26:10] become a responsible adult is to become
[26:13] responsible for one's own life and one's
[26:16] own heart and soul. And so the first
[26:18] step would be separation from the
[26:20] family, everyone you knew and everything
[26:22] you had. And you would go then into
[26:26] isolation, often into a dark hut. So you
[26:28] would literally leave everything to go
[26:30] into darkness. And then you would have
[26:33] what was called a brush with death. And
[26:35] then in the middle of that process, the
[26:38] next step would be limonality being betw
[26:40] twixed in between. You're not quite the
[26:43] newborn person yet and you're not quite
[26:45] the child that you were. And now in that
[26:47] in between step is where two things
[26:50] would happen. Essential to human
[26:53] transformation. And that would be one,
[26:55] you would become more aware of your
[26:56] natural gifts and and things that are
[26:59] part of what I call your genius self.
[27:02] And the other thing would be the
[27:03] beginning of your early life wounds.
[27:06] Because the premise of this is another
[27:08] open secret. Everybody who's born is
[27:11] wounded. Everyone and someone who says
[27:13] they're not wounded is one of the most
[27:15] wounded people you'll ever meet. Uh and
[27:17] someone who says they can fix everything
[27:19] is really wounded deeply and so on. So
[27:22] so then a person would go through these
[27:24] two steps. separation and then
[27:26] limonality between them between but
[27:28] awakening to gifts and beginning to heal
[27:31] inner wounds. Those would be the first
[27:33] two steps of init in initiation. And in
[27:36] traditional cultures it would be
[27:38] understood if you haven't gone through
[27:40] that you may not be an adult. And then
[27:43] the third step would be the young people
[27:45] having just found out what their gifts
[27:47] are, having become begun the healing of
[27:51] their own wounds because everyone early
[27:52] in life is abandoned and experiences
[27:54] deep fear of obliteration and stuff like
[27:57] that. Um, now the person is imbued with
[28:00] spirit, what we would call spirit, and
[28:03] they're coming back to the village or
[28:05] the community who knows what they're
[28:07] going through cuz they're in a
[28:08] tradition. And then the community is
[28:10] waiting to bless and confirm them as
[28:13] having changed at the core of their life
[28:16] which makes it is amazing experience to
[28:18] be blessed by a community rather than
[28:21] modern young people are literally left
[28:23] alone with their own devices.
[28:26] Traditionally young people would be go
[28:28] through a process and then be blessed.
[28:30] But in the meantime the young people
[28:32] coming back are imbued with spirit.
[28:34] They're alive. So they're bringing the
[28:36] spirit of renewal and revival to the
[28:39] community while they're being blessed by
[28:41] that community. And so the process would
[28:44] make awakened young people and revived
[28:48] community. That would be the tradition
[28:49] that was around the world until modern
[28:52] times.
[28:54] >> Yeah. I mean I think you're pointing to
[28:56] I guess a structural problem we have
[28:59] today in that we don't do this much.
[29:02] There's vestigages of it. So,
[29:06] [sighs and gasps]
[29:07] I mean, does that inherently mean that
[29:09] if if you essentially have a tougher
[29:11] childhood where you have to kind of
[29:13] figure things out on your own at some
[29:14] point in your life, you you're you're
[29:16] you're getting an advantage in a sense
[29:18] versus if you're pretty well off and
[29:20] coddled and handled off to college and
[29:22] still coddled and then you never really
[29:24] have to figure anything out.
[29:26] >> What for parents, all the parents out
[29:28] there, I mean, let's talk about this.
[29:30] like what are I guess dare I say some
[29:33] practical ways one could weave in or uh
[29:37] these elements of rights of passage for
[29:39] someone who's in their teenage years or
[29:40] what do you think or or maybe they feel
[29:42] like they've missed the boat themselves
[29:43] I mean what are ways you can
[29:45] >> well most people have missed they missed
[29:47] the last part of the boat
[29:49] >> you know like if I'm working with an
[29:50] audience I say how many people have been
[29:52] separated had an experience of
[29:54] separation like you got sick and had to
[29:57] go to a hospital and you were kind of by
[29:59] yourself in the hospital or you lost a
[30:01] loved one or you got kicked out of
[30:03] school or you lost a career and almost
[30:05] everybody raised their hand. How many
[30:07] people have felt caught betw twix in
[30:09] between not knowing what's coming next
[30:11] and and feeling you know that you're in
[30:14] the dark and your life is unraveled and
[30:15] most people will raise their hand. How
[30:18] many people have come back from that
[30:20] experience to be welcomed by a community
[30:22] that's conscious of the fact that you
[30:25] have transformed and are capable and
[30:26] willing to bless and confirm your
[30:28] experience. Hardly any hands go up at
[30:31] all. So what happens is this stuff like
[30:33] rights of passage is archetypal.
[30:36] Archetypal is an old world. Ar means not
[30:40] just old, it means ancient and original.
[30:42] Typos is a Greek term for shape or form.
[30:46] So there are archetypal shapes or forms
[30:49] and forms that are live inside us. So
[30:52] even though we don't have rights of
[30:53] passage, everybody is people are usually
[30:56] living in an unfinished initiation.
[31:00] >> And so in the middle of the book, I had
[31:02] a a problem that occurred to me that I'm
[31:05] busy writing about this and I feel like
[31:07] this is the time to talk about
[31:09] transformation because we're living in
[31:10] transformational times.
[31:12] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[31:12] >> And it occurred to me, well, how do how
[31:14] is why is someone should take my word
[31:17] for it or or how could what credibility
[31:19] do I have? And so I realized I had to
[31:21] tell a personal story very briefly. When
[31:24] I was 19, I was drafted to go to Vietnam
[31:27] War. Comes in the mail. Used to be
[31:29] everything came in the mail. Read the
[31:30] thing. Oh my god, I'm drafted. I wrote
[31:32] him a letter back. I said, "Look, it
[31:34] it's an unjust war. It's an unwise war.
[31:36] It's not even a declared war, so I'm not
[31:38] coming. But if you have another war, let
[31:40] me know." I thought I had covered the
[31:42] the subject. Well,
[31:44] >> I didn't get another letter.
[31:44] >> You were done. Yeah, I was courteous and
[31:46] everything. Uh I didn't get another
[31:48] letter. I got a knock at the door and
[31:50] the next thing it was you go to the
[31:52] induction center draft and if you don't
[31:54] go into the army, you go to jail. And so
[31:57] that caused a really
[32:01] where the hell am I kind of thing
[32:02] because I'm growing up in New York in a
[32:05] bluecollar neighborhood and my family
[32:07] thinks I should go to the war. Everybody
[32:08] in the neighbor thinks I should go to
[32:10] the war. I'm the only one. This is
[32:11] before the peace movement started. I'm
[32:13] just saying this is not right on the
[32:15] level of my conscience. So struggle. I'm
[32:18] only 19. I can't quite stand up for
[32:21] myself in a way. I go into the army. And
[32:24] I actually like the beginning of it. It
[32:25] was, you know, it was basic training was
[32:27] fun. There was a lot of you can meet all
[32:29] these guys. There was it was cool. Uh
[32:31] and then they started giving me orders.
[32:34] And then they tea tell us one day that
[32:36] if you're ordered to shoot someone,
[32:38] regardless if it's a child or a
[32:40] grandmother, you shoot them. And I said,
[32:42] "I'm not I can't do that." And the the
[32:46] officer that was giving the talk said,
[32:48] "If you don't do it, I'll shoot you."
[32:50] And I said, "Regardless of that, I'm not
[32:53] going to shoot someone, you know, that I
[32:55] think is innocent uh for reasons that no
[32:58] one can convince me of." Well, that led
[33:00] to a big problem. Anyway, the next thing
[33:02] they were giving me orders and I was
[33:03] saying, "Okay, I'm not doing orders
[33:05] anymore. This was my mistake. I think I
[33:07] should go home." And they said, "You
[33:09] can't go home, but you can't go to
[33:10] jail." So, I wound up in jail anyway.
[33:12] Now, I'm in jail. Guess what they do in
[33:14] jail? They give you even more orders.
[33:17] So, I just said, "Look, you guys didn't
[33:19] get the story. I'm not doing orders."
[33:20] So, then I'm in then I'm in uh what do
[33:23] you call it? I'm in an isolation cell.
[33:26] I'm in solitary confinement for months
[33:29] and and I'm not getting out and they're
[33:31] telling me I'm not and and they have
[33:32] hidden me because it had become a story
[33:35] and Life magazine and Time magazine were
[33:37] trying to find out about this guy who's
[33:40] you know refusing cuz most of the people
[33:42] were draft drafted like I was. So
[33:46] somewhere in the middle of it I realized
[33:48] I have to fast. I have to fast again. So
[33:51] I began fasting. So I ended there
[33:53] probably 150 some odd pounds. By the
[33:55] time I get out, I'm 87 pounds. I have
[33:58] almost erased my life. Um, but the
[34:03] strangest thing happened that in that
[34:05] solitary cell in darkness, literally, I
[34:08] could only see daylight by getting
[34:10] looking down the hall and across at a
[34:12] window where I could see a corner of the
[34:14] day. I didn't see daytime otherwise. Um,
[34:17] I was literally in the dark. Um,
[34:21] in that process, I found that I was not
[34:24] empty inside. I had to go down through
[34:26] all these layers. I had to give up
[34:29] [clears throat] everything I believed in
[34:30] cuz it didn't work anymore. I had to be
[34:32] give up all I was afraid of cuz it
[34:35] wasn't helping me to be afraid anymore.
[34:37] And I finally at the bottom something
[34:39] changes. And what's happening is I'm no
[34:42] longer alone in my solitary cell. I'm
[34:45] having visitors that no one else can
[34:47] see. and they turn out to be figures
[34:50] from myths that I read and liked and
[34:53] they're visiting me and encouraging me
[34:55] and even guiding me and I have to make a
[34:57] decision at that point. Am I totally
[35:00] losing my mind or am I actually finding
[35:03] my mind and I decided I must this must
[35:06] be my actual mind or now I would call it
[35:09] my soul. Um because they were
[35:11] encouraging my life and and not letting
[35:13] me actually give up on myself or give up
[35:16] on life. And so eventually I get out of
[35:19] there and now I'm I'm a traumatized
[35:23] person severely. So uh but I know
[35:26] something which is at the bottom.
[35:28] There's an imagination and there's a
[35:31] kind of a world of myth that is I have
[35:34] access to and and I have become a
[35:37] mythologist not just a storyteller but a
[35:40] mythologist that was waiting to be found
[35:43] by me and in my case it had this radical
[35:46] disscent. So I'm not saying everybody
[35:48] should have a story like that. I'm
[35:50] saying everybody's story is aiming for
[35:52] that.
[35:54] >> Aiming for the like fundamental
[35:57] connection to soul.
[35:59] >> Yes. And aiming for some other person
[36:00] there. Uh I met this man happened to be
[36:03] named Muhammad. He was originally from
[36:06] Iran but he wound up in Iraq. He got
[36:08] driven out of Iran because he was a
[36:10] freedom fighter and he was wanted. He
[36:12] went to Iraq. He got in more trouble. He
[36:14] got thrown into prison. This is how I
[36:16] met him. People he was he wound up in
[36:18] Canada and people were calling me from
[36:20] Canada and say you have to meet this guy
[36:22] because he needs to know from you that
[36:24] he's okay, you know, because he's been
[36:27] driven eventually to the United States.
[36:29] But it turns out that what happened to
[36:31] him in Iraq, they beat the hell out of
[36:34] him and throw him into this dark prison,
[36:36] leaving him there to die. And he comes
[36:39] close to death apparently. And then at
[36:41] some point he's awakening and he's
[36:43] hearing this beautiful music. And so he
[36:46] believes he has died and gone to heaven.
[36:48] And he's enjoying that until he realizes
[36:50] he's the one singing. [laughter] And so
[36:53] he had never been a singer, but in the
[36:55] depth of his broken body, solitary cell,
[36:59] he found his singing voice. And I'm
[37:01] telling you, he's one of the most
[37:03] profound singers I've ever met. And uh
[37:05] so we worked together for a while. And
[37:08] uh I would tell a story and then he
[37:09] would turn it into a song. and he has
[37:11] this amazing capacity to sing that he
[37:13] only found when his entire life was
[37:15] broken down. And again, I'm not saying
[37:17] that has to happen to everybody, but
[37:19] everybody has their experience where
[37:22] everything they believed in doesn't work
[37:24] anymore. where um [clears throat]
[37:26] they're kind of exposed in a deep way
[37:29] and what happens
[37:31] can't prove it can't guarantee it what
[37:34] happens is they awaken to something that
[37:36] is essential to them that was trying to
[37:38] awaken in them all along
[37:41] >> then in that thinking is is breakdown
[37:44] desperation
[37:46] stress whatever words we want to attach
[37:49] to it an integral part of this discovery
[37:52] I mean can you have it without
[37:54] some of the hardest things that I think
[37:56] naturally are human nature is to try to
[37:58] avoid them, but we're also saying like
[38:01] that is our destiny. Like
[38:04] >> yeah,
[38:04] >> it's important for these things to be
[38:06] allowed to occur, the fire to burn, I
[38:09] guess.
[38:11] >> Well, yeah, because see the the problem
[38:14] is the ego in a psychological term. So
[38:17] the middle of the book is transformation
[38:18] seen through the lens of human psyche.
[38:21] And the problem there is the ego. And so
[38:25] um the way I tell it, the ego forms at a
[38:29] point in infancy when the infant who has
[38:32] been receiving the loving glance and
[38:36] nourishment from the mother or who is
[38:38] ever mothering and realizes, "Oh, there
[38:41] must be something good in me because
[38:43] she's loving something in me." And the
[38:46] and the and the infant is beginning to
[38:48] realize this. And then it turns back
[38:51] trying to get that glance again. And at
[38:53] that moment, it doesn't have to be
[38:54] abuse. It's just the mother has other
[38:56] children. She has a spouse. She has two
[38:58] jobs. Whatever it is, she's turned away.
[39:01] And the infant doesn't feel like, "Oh,
[39:03] bummer. I'm not going to get that
[39:05] today." No, the infant feels like it's
[39:07] going to be obliterated. And in order to
[39:09] avoid obliteration, it forms the ego. So
[39:13] the ego is formed as a protective device
[39:16] not to feel obliterated.
[39:19] But then when it comes to
[39:21] transformation, the ego has to let go.
[39:25] In the case of the rights of passage we
[39:27] were talking about, it's the childish
[39:29] ego that has to let go. But it feels
[39:32] like death. That's why they call it a
[39:34] brush with death. And again, I'll go
[39:36] back to what I was saying about the open
[39:37] secret. The open secret is all of this
[39:40] is about life, death, rebirth. And so
[39:45] the death part is the hard part. Well,
[39:47] the life part at this period in the
[39:49] world is the hard part also. And so and
[39:52] so in the beginning of book, I talk
[39:54] about the caterpillar and the butterfly.
[39:57] And the caterpillar and the butterfly
[39:59] are two parts of the same being. In
[40:01] modern uh parliament, they're two parts
[40:05] of the same DNA package. Um the
[40:08] butterfly, the caterpillar knows nothing
[40:10] about the butterfly. Um and the
[40:12] caterpillar is almost blind and it
[40:15] exists by eating its own environment. Um
[40:18] and then suddenly it gets a signal. No
[40:21] one, this is the mystery coming in. No
[40:23] one knows where the signal comes from or
[40:25] how the caterpillar gets it. But it
[40:27] stops eating its environment and it
[40:29] forms a cocoon and descends into the
[40:31] cocoon. inside the cocoon. What's
[40:34] happening is in that darkness, the cells
[40:37] of the butterfly, which were dormant,
[40:39] are starting to awaken. So, the
[40:42] biologists now go in there and they look
[40:44] inside the cocoon. No one ever did that
[40:46] before. And and what they see is that
[40:49] the the caterpillar cells are dying off
[40:53] and the and the butterfly cells are
[40:55] coming awake. And so they give they have
[40:57] to name everything. They name the
[40:59] caterpillar cells larvae. The larvae,
[41:02] the word larvae means mask. And they
[41:05] name the cells of the butterfly to be
[41:08] the imaginal cells as if they get the
[41:11] insight that imagination is at the core
[41:14] of the transformation. And then the
[41:17] story is unless unless the caterpillar
[41:20] goes into dark and I'm equating the
[41:22] caterpillar with the human ego. Unless
[41:24] the caterpillar/larva/ego
[41:27] goes into darkness, it can't awaken. And
[41:30] even when it gets there, it has to let
[41:32] go completely. In nature, the
[41:34] caterpillar dissolves
[41:36] in order that the imaginal cells can
[41:39] awaken. And so psychologically, we
[41:42] repeat that. The old idea was you read
[41:45] the text of nature to understand human
[41:47] nature. And and so we are at critical
[41:51] times in our lives, we don't know what's
[41:54] going on. We lose our footing. Things
[41:57] unravel. something we hope for fails.
[42:00] You can everybody has their own story.
[42:03] And the trick or the deep wisdom is that
[42:08] when that's happening, change is more
[42:11] possible than at any other time
[42:14] change. But a lot of people want to
[42:18] participate and be on their path and be
[42:20] part of a positive change and
[42:21] transformation. But I'm curious if you
[42:23] have a pointer on how to help them feel
[42:26] that like they're on that path or
[42:29] they're moving in the right direction or
[42:30] they are participating. Like what are
[42:32] the ways that you actively participate
[42:34] for this unfolding?
[42:36] >> Well, I think everybody has their
[42:39] brushes with internal awakening early
[42:42] on. Yeah,
[42:43] >> I had my 13-year-old experience where
[42:45] literally if there had been a different
[42:47] point in history and there were people
[42:49] around that understood what was
[42:51] happening, they would say, "Oh, look
[42:52] what's happening to him. He's probably
[42:54] going to be one of the storytellers in
[42:55] the community, you know, cuz look at he
[42:57] got that story and he just read it all
[42:59] night long and felt like he's completely
[43:02] alive at all levels of his life." Uh,
[43:04] but no one was around to do that. So
[43:06] then went back into the cocoon and then
[43:08] it it surfaced again when I was almost
[43:11] dying. But while I was dying, I was also
[43:13] standing for something and I found
[43:15] something to stand with. So I think if
[43:18] people examine their lives, if someone
[43:21] is 24 and older, they have gone through
[43:24] this, it just wasn't recognized.
[43:27] >> So I think the first because it's
[43:29] archetypal. It happens to everyone. And
[43:31] the and like you know, I have friends
[43:33] that got kicked out of school. Most of
[43:34] my friends got kicked out of school and
[43:36] and and their lives changed. But if we
[43:39] all had understood what was going on, it
[43:41] wouldn't have been, "Oh, they messed
[43:42] up." It it wouldn't have been simply
[43:45] that. It would have been, "Oh, they have
[43:46] to find the source of life somewhere
[43:48] else." And so, if people are honest
[43:51] about themselves, you can go back and
[43:53] find those moments that you didn't want,
[43:56] but which indelibly have marked you, and
[43:59] those moments can open up and be
[44:01] understood, could be learned from. So,
[44:03] that's the first thing. Um the second
[44:06] thing I would say about it is since most
[44:08] people raise their hands and say yes I
[44:11] was separated from everybody you know um
[44:13] at an early age someone I loved and my
[44:15] mother father sibling died and that gave
[44:18] me a brush with death and the whole
[44:20] world fell apart and then I find my way
[44:22] back eventually but I carry that with me
[44:25] then that's their story that's a
[44:27] brilliant story it's an initiatory story
[44:30] and and then what so this is the second
[44:32] point most people don't know we're all
[44:34] survivors
[44:35] We are all survivors. We have all
[44:37] survived trouble in the family. We have
[44:39] all survive living without a family. We
[44:42] all have survived losses that we never
[44:44] would have wanted. But now mark us in
[44:47] ways that you can't remove them. They're
[44:49] indelible. And so if people don't know
[44:51] they've been through that, they're not
[44:53] aware of how they are a survivor.
[44:56] Um, you know, I'll continue with my
[44:58] little story. So, I get out of that
[45:00] prison cell and and I don't fit back
[45:03] into culture at all. Zero. I'm just like
[45:05] a battle veteran. I can't make it back.
[45:08] And people ask me, "Well, what happened
[45:10] to you? You you know, you lost a lot of
[45:11] weight. What happened to you?" And when
[45:13] I try to explain it, it's like, "No,
[45:16] they don't want to hear it or they can't
[45:17] hear it." And so then I have to do
[45:19] something else with my life. And and I
[45:22] realize no one's going to save me from
[45:25] this. I have to find the saving inside
[45:28] my own story. So I started to seriously
[45:31] study psychology, anthropology
[45:34] and then mythology which I already knew
[45:35] was helpful to me. And then and then I I
[45:38] didn't do all that formally. I did it
[45:40] informally and you know so then I become
[45:43] a person that lives that way and talks
[45:45] about those things and and so eventually
[45:48] I wind up teaching third year PhD level
[45:53] psychology and mythology without any
[45:56] real credentials.
[45:58] I'm joking, but it's true because I kind
[46:01] of lived it
[46:02] >> and I refound this essence of my life
[46:05] through those studies. And so, um, so it
[46:09] becomes a part of me that if you took
[46:10] that away, I'm gone. If you took that
[46:14] radical experience away, then I'm not
[46:16] I'm no longer present. And that goes
[46:18] back to traditions you find around the
[46:20] world where someone will say that ritual
[46:23] made me or that descent made me. We have
[46:28] to pay attention to the things that made
[46:30] us who we are and they tend to be
[46:32] radical things. I mean what Krishna Das
[46:36] and what um um Ramdas and other people
[46:39] were doing was really radical. Going to
[46:42] a completely different culture immers
[46:45] having to give up their ego. What's the
[46:47] first thing they had to do? That's what
[46:49] all the teachers are saying. You're not
[46:50] even here yet. So far we've just met
[46:52] your ego. Give up that ego. Learn
[46:56] essence. learn wisdom, learn practice
[46:59] and bring it back. In their case, bring
[47:02] it back to others who haven't heard
[47:03] about it. So [snorts] that's the third
[47:05] thing. Um that is to say, you need a
[47:07] practice.
[47:08] >> You know, we need practices in order to
[47:10] sustain the essence of our life. We need
[47:13] practices in the modern world as a
[47:14] refuge. You know, the outside world
[47:16] would just turn you upside down moment
[47:19] to moment. So towards the end of the
[47:22] book I'm going to an old tradition in
[47:24] India that there's two roads of practice
[47:26] and one road is meditation contemplation
[47:29] turning away from the world turning
[47:30] inward finding that pool of stillness
[47:33] and bliss in the soul and the other
[47:36] other side of it is the opposite. The
[47:39] expressive creative arts making music
[47:42] painting create doing architecture doing
[47:44] all kinds of expressive things that come
[47:46] from the exact same place. The deep
[47:49] center can be experienced as the pool of
[47:52] peaceful stillness and can be
[47:54] experienced as the source of radical
[47:56] creative energy. It's both of those.
[47:59] >> Many people, especially western people,
[48:01] need both roads. Some people go mainly
[48:04] on one road, but most of us go on both
[48:06] roads. And in the course of life, in
[48:08] order to sustain the sense of self even
[48:11] after you find it, we need practices
[48:14] that give us those refuge places to come
[48:16] back to and to dwell and keep learning
[48:18] from. So those are three things that I
[48:22] think are essential and available.
[48:25] A quick note to ask if you've ever
[48:27] checked out the [music] council on
[48:29] Patreon. That is where I get to share
[48:32] demos and lots of live recordings and
[48:34] ceremony recordings. [music] And there's
[48:36] different tiers. One of the tiers we do
[48:38] a monthly Zoom. And on that Zoom, uh, we
[48:42] all get to sort of share space and
[48:44] witness [music] one another and track
[48:46] how we're weaving out there in the
[48:48] world. And then I do a live meditation
[48:50] with my music that is based off of that
[48:53] stuff that is [music] coming up and that
[48:55] is alive for us. And then I mix those
[48:57] meditations and share them uh with the
[49:00] Patreon. [music] And it's a great
[49:02] community, great way to support this
[49:04] project. And I'm really grateful. It's a
[49:07] place for [music] me to just go deeper
[49:08] and share things I don't have a place to
[49:10] share anywhere else. So check it out.
[49:12] Eastforce.org. Look for the link for the
[49:14] council on Patreon or go to
[49:16] patreon.com/theastforest. [music]
[49:19] And thank you to everyone who is
[49:21] currently a member, free or otherwise.
[49:24] You can be a free member, by the way.
[49:25] Just check it out on the council. Yeah.
[49:29] So, I'm I'm I'm kind of hearing how
[49:31] there's levels of acceptance uh and
[49:34] honoring that and allowing I suppose
[49:37] like this seems like a natural momentum
[49:40] or intelligence as well. like with the
[49:43] caterpillar into the butterfly. If if
[49:45] that works for us, then it's like less
[49:47] us having to squeeze it into existence.
[49:50] It has something to do with
[49:52] participating by honoring allowing and
[49:56] that participation having to do with
[49:57] things you just spoke about and and and
[49:59] practice because I keep coming back to
[50:02] this because I know people are
[50:04] there's so many people who you know good
[50:06] people everywhere who really they really
[50:07] want to be part of a positive change and
[50:10] they can struggle with like well how do
[50:11] I actually do that when I'm I'm getting
[50:13] all this information and I want to feel
[50:15] like I'm a participant
[50:17] >> um and not just feel like I'm knocking
[50:19] against this giant wall, this Goliath.
[50:21] And so I basically saying I feel like
[50:23] that's what we're kind of talking about.
[50:26] >> Yeah. And there are small steps or or
[50:28] other kinds of steps going back to soul.
[50:32] What we there's an ancient uh African
[50:34] proverb, what you love is the cure. The
[50:38] illness is life. What you love is the
[50:40] cure. So if people can figure out what
[50:42] they love, then they're on the path. And
[50:46] and you know and I mean by love really
[50:49] like some everybody most everybody likes
[50:52] music. There are some people that love
[50:53] music. Music is speaks to my soul. It
[50:56] resonates. It reverberates in my soul. I
[50:59] think my soul might be an ongoing wave
[51:02] of music. You know what it's like when
[51:04] you feel that then you have to go with
[51:06] that. And if a person just goes with
[51:08] that all of a sudden they're nourishing
[51:11] their own soul. And that is a form not
[51:14] just of aim and direction. It's a form
[51:16] of protection.
[51:18] >> We're protected when we're living
[51:20] meaningfully.
[51:22] And so in the modern world that is so
[51:24] unsafe and so uncertain, it's not an
[51:26] accident that eastern practices have
[51:28] come into the west. But eastern
[51:30] practices are both creative and
[51:33] contemplative and we need and can learn
[51:36] those. Um and everybody so that goes
[51:39] back to everyone has a calling. Everyone
[51:42] has a calling and um and then some of
[51:44] the people that we rever the most,
[51:47] you've mentioned a couple of them are
[51:50] people who responded to their calling
[51:52] and that wasn't an easy thing to do in
[51:55] in the sense that it's hard for the ego.
[51:58] >> It's hard for the ego to realize I
[52:01] really don't know. But if I can be with
[52:04] this person who knows more than me like
[52:06] a guru then I can be in that blessed
[52:10] condition where I can learn directly and
[52:13] because I love words and the origins of
[52:15] words I include in the book the meaning
[52:17] of guru which is an old Sanskrit term
[52:21] has two parts. G means darkness without
[52:24] light. Ru means light without darkness.
[52:28] A guru is someone who brings us from the
[52:30] darkness to the light we already have
[52:32] inside ourselves. And so who's a guru?
[52:37] Anybody that teaches us. A dog could be
[52:40] the guru. Guru. A tree can be the guru.
[52:42] Anything that brings the light out of us
[52:44] can be a guru. And so so if people
[52:48] realize I'm going for what I love, I'm
[52:51] treating it as if it's teaching me. I'm
[52:53] allowing it to teach me. They've got two
[52:56] steps already. Um, and then if you turn
[52:58] some of that into a practice, well, all
[53:01] of a sudden you have three things. You
[53:03] have a notion of what I love and what my
[53:06] soul cares for. You have a connection to
[53:08] what teaches and confirms my soul. And
[53:12] then you have a practice that sustains
[53:14] it. And so those aren't that hard and
[53:18] they're not that foreign even though
[53:20] some of them came from foreign cultures.
[53:22] Um, and they're easy to learn in a way,
[53:25] but the the first part is the hard part.
[53:28] Most people have a level of
[53:30] self-loathing that is really
[53:31] problematic.
[53:33] >> The, you know, the reason I tell my
[53:35] story of being in solitary confinement,
[53:37] everything else was gone. I was
[53:39] literally physically disappearing.
[53:42] And and and I didn't know cuz I was
[53:45] raised like everybody else. I didn't
[53:46] know it if there was anything down
[53:48] there. And what turned out to be down
[53:50] there was the essence of who I was
[53:52] supposed to actually be. That's why I
[53:55] tell that story. Not because people have
[53:58] to go through what I went through, but
[53:59] that's the story for everyone. And and
[54:02] we're just getting the wrong message and
[54:04] we're getting it early in life. We got
[54:06] the wrong message about the genius
[54:08] nature of the soul. We get the wrong
[54:10] message about having a calling in life.
[54:12] And we've got the wrong message about
[54:13] nature. And we have the wrong message
[54:15] about the cosmos. Because those young
[54:18] people going through the right of
[54:19] passage uh one of the ideas they had you
[54:22] get taken from the lap of your mother
[54:24] and you put into the lap of mother
[54:26] nature
[54:27] >> that was beautiful image they had but
[54:29] also they would be taught like in
[54:32] ancient India they would be taught about
[54:34] the cosmos and that we are connected to
[54:36] the cosmos so that when a person makes a
[54:39] meaningful change it alters the world in
[54:42] some small or bigger way.
[54:46] Last question is really more of a prompt
[54:49] where I'm [clears throat] just curious
[54:51] if there's a a myth or a story that
[54:53] comes to mind that to you encapsulates
[54:56] today just where we're at in this
[54:58] moment. And it doesn't have to be the
[55:00] perfect encapsulation or the past or the
[55:02] future. Just something that's coming to
[55:04] mind. It's like this is this is what
[55:05] needs to be told in this moment.
[55:07] >> Yeah. So the unfortunate thing about
[55:09] having access to myth as part of one's
[55:12] interior life is like five stories rush
[55:15] right into my life. [laughter]
[55:17] So so um
[55:20] so let's see I'll go this way.
[55:23] >> Okay.
[55:23] >> And I'm doing this partly because what I
[55:25] know about your background.
[55:27] >> Okay.
[55:27] >> So this is a Native American story from
[55:30] what we call the Apache tribe in the
[55:33] southwest. They don't call themselves
[55:35] Apache. call themselves da which means
[55:38] the people and it's their creation myth.
[55:42] So in the book I'm making the point that
[55:44] creation myths are actually recreation
[55:46] myths because the cultures that had
[55:48] their myths and worked with their myths
[55:50] were realizing every every time they
[55:52] turned to the myth they were learning
[55:53] about creation. So creation wasn't
[55:55] something that happened historically in
[55:57] ancient places somewhere. Creation is
[55:59] happening all the time. Any
[56:00] [clears throat] artist knows that but
[56:02] people used to all know that. So they
[56:05] tell the story whenever they're in
[56:06] trouble. And so it begins they have the
[56:08] the one who made the world. They don't
[56:10] say it's a god or a goddess. They say
[56:12] it's the one who made the world. So the
[56:14] one who made the world is finished with
[56:16] making the trees and the forest and the
[56:18] rivers and the birds and the fish. And
[56:20] something's missing. So the one who made
[56:22] the world made human creatures. So now
[56:24] humans come into the world. Typically
[56:26] humans are the last thing created. Um
[56:28] and so the humans are put down at a
[56:30] certain place. Um, and it so happens
[56:33] that as soon as they're placed
[56:34] somewhere, the humans start complaining.
[56:36] They don't like it. They're complaining
[56:37] about the place. So, this is a story
[56:39] that also helps understand that we're
[56:41] always complaining. It started way back
[56:43] at the beginning, but the one who made
[56:45] the humans and made the world is still
[56:47] close by. And here's them complaining.
[56:49] Said, "Listen, if you don't like where
[56:51] you are, you can change. Get up and
[56:53] move." And so, the people start
[56:55] wandering around. People are still
[56:56] wandering around. Anyway, they find a
[56:58] place that they like and the reason they
[57:00] like it is they start to rest well and
[57:03] have big dreams. And so now they're
[57:05] feeling like real humans. They're having
[57:07] big dreams. They're dwelling in a place
[57:09] that feels right to them. But in this
[57:12] world, things can only be right for a
[57:13] while and something has to happen. In
[57:16] the case of this story, what happens is
[57:18] some people got sick. It was so early on
[57:20] in creation that no one knew what
[57:22] sickness was and therefore no one had
[57:24] any idea of healing. So what they did
[57:26] was simply reject the people that were
[57:28] sick and they were just pushed out of
[57:30] the tribe. And so now you have a
[57:33] division in the tribe. And of course
[57:35] we're still having divisions to this
[57:37] day. But at that point there were four
[57:40] people in the tribe that thought
[57:41] something was really wrong. And so on a
[57:45] certain day they went out at the end of
[57:46] the day when the light was draining from
[57:48] the world and darkness was falling. And
[57:50] they each stood facing in a different
[57:52] direction. And as they stood in the
[57:54] darkness of not knowing, being concerned
[57:57] about people being rejected and sickness
[57:59] and all of that stuff, the one who made
[58:01] the world spoke to them directly and
[58:04] said, "For every sickness there's a
[58:06] cure. For every illness, there's a
[58:07] remedy. For every trouble, there's a
[58:09] solution. That's the nature of life." So
[58:12] now they all had knowledge. And after
[58:14] that, every night they would go out and
[58:15] each stand looking in a into the
[58:17] darkness, each looking in a different
[58:19] direction. And each night the one who
[58:21] made the world would give each one of
[58:23] them a song. They got different kinds of
[58:26] songs and they got stories. And after a
[58:28] while they all had songs and they had
[58:30] stories. And then the one who made the
[58:32] world said to them, "Now it's time to go
[58:34] back. Bring everyone together. Take
[58:37] those that are sick and wounded and put
[58:39] them in the middle. Gather everyone
[58:41] around them. Tell the stories that
[58:43] you've been that you've been told. Sing
[58:45] the songs that are in your souls. and
[58:47] bring put hands on everyone and you will
[58:50] be able to heal those that are sick and
[58:52] now [clears throat] you will be a real
[58:54] community because you will have healing
[58:56] power. So that's their creation story or
[58:59] one of them. And so to me that's where
[59:01] we are. We're we're um complaining about
[59:05] the world all the time. We're um not
[59:08] sure if we should stay. People in United
[59:09] States want to go to Europe or
[59:10] somewhere. Maybe they'll change after
[59:12] the last election. I don't know. But
[59:14] people are so insecure. people that we
[59:17] disagree with, we're rejecting so that
[59:19] people wind up feeling polarized and not
[59:21] in the same village, not in the same
[59:23] story. Um and so the right thing to do
[59:27] is to go and stand in the darkness and
[59:30] trust that there is something beyond
[59:32] ourselves that is secret connected to
[59:35] ourselves that is going to give us
[59:38] through come some mysterious delivery
[59:40] system the knowledge that we need the
[59:43] songs that we need and the stories that
[59:45] we need and then that original story is
[59:49] saying only four people change that
[59:51] entire culture. So that takes us to the
[59:54] place where the realization is
[59:57] everybody doesn't have to agree to make
[59:59] a change. That's never going to happen.
[1:00:01] That's not going to happen. Enough
[1:00:03] people, we don't know what the number
[1:00:04] is, just have to awaken to what their
[1:00:08] calling is, what their medicine is, what
[1:00:10] their music is, what their work is. And
[1:00:13] but when that happens to enough people,
[1:00:16] it begins to affect other people. And
[1:00:18] that changes culture. And when that
[1:00:20] change happens, it's transformational
[1:00:22] change. And when that occurs, we become
[1:00:25] not the potential victims of artificial
[1:00:29] intelligence, but in fact the agents of
[1:00:32] recreation. And when we're living as the
[1:00:34] agents of recreation, we feel satisfied
[1:00:37] because we're living a meaningful way.
[1:00:40] Uh but we're also protected when we're
[1:00:42] doing that. And when we're doing that,
[1:00:44] we're still a fragile, uncertain
[1:00:47] individual soul, but we're contributing
[1:00:49] presence and meaning and purpose and
[1:00:53] music and stories to the world. And that
[1:00:55] makes us really human. And if we're
[1:00:58] really human, we're okay with dying,
[1:00:59] too.
[1:01:02] >> Well, Michael me, I thank you for that
[1:01:05] story and thank for your thoughts. And
[1:01:07] the book, Card of Transformation, is it
[1:01:09] out now or is it coming out soon?
[1:01:10] >> No, it's out. It's out. You If people
[1:01:13] are in the United States, they can order
[1:01:14] it from Amazon or from our website. If
[1:01:17] you order it from Mosaic, our website is
[1:01:20] mosaicvoices.org,
[1:01:22] then I'll I'll sign it. You get a signed
[1:01:24] copy.
[1:01:25] >> Oh, cool.
[1:01:25] >> If you if you're in Canada where you
[1:01:28] have to get books from Banyan Books in
[1:01:31] in in uh British Columbia because we
[1:01:33] can't get books into Canada simply right
[1:01:36] now. Uh and if you're in any other
[1:01:38] country, it's being produced through
[1:01:40] Amazon on demand. So the book is
[1:01:43] available as a book in every country,
[1:01:45] Canada, you have to go through the
[1:01:47] certain bookstore. Um but also it's a
[1:01:49] available as an ebook and um and then
[1:01:53] we're selling it through our website. If
[1:01:55] you buy it through us, you're supporting
[1:01:56] our work and you get a signed copy. Um
[1:02:00] but yeah, it's available everywhere.
[1:02:02] >> What about an audio book?
[1:02:03] >> The audio book is coming. Is it you?
[1:02:08] >> Yeah. Has to be. It's me. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:02:11] That's that's how it turned out. But we
[1:02:13] were hoping to do it in, you know, at
[1:02:15] the same time as the book, but it was I
[1:02:18] was late getting it ready. The deadline
[1:02:20] was there. And then since then, we've
[1:02:23] just been doing interviews and all kinds
[1:02:25] of things and it hasn't been time. The
[1:02:27] audio the audio book is coming, but
[1:02:29] it'll take a while.
[1:02:30] >> Yeah, you're time rich. Don't worry
[1:02:32] about it. Um, it's all good. Um,
[1:02:35] [laughter]
[1:02:36] well, I really appreciate uh you sharing
[1:02:38] some time and and your thoughts. It it
[1:02:41] feels really important these days to to
[1:02:44] speak to this because it really is the
[1:02:45] core of the issue of like what's people
[1:02:47] often think in their heads like what is
[1:02:49] going on? It's like this is going on.
[1:02:50] It's like, you know, and it's happening
[1:02:52] and it's okay. And I think it's a
[1:02:55] permission for people to participate
[1:02:56] through their hearts in a way that feels
[1:02:58] natural. It's good.
[1:03:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it is our nature
[1:03:03] to transform.
[1:03:04] >> First it seems impossible and then it
[1:03:06] becomes, oh, I get it, [laughter]
[1:03:09] >> you know. And you know, it's interesting
[1:03:11] because you have a different name than
[1:03:13] the last time we spoke.
[1:03:14] >> Oh, is that long ago? Wow.
[1:03:16] >> Yeah, it is. Wow. And
[1:03:18] >> and actually and you already had a
[1:03:20] different name then. Anyway, I don't
[1:03:21] know. [laughter] But but here's what I
[1:03:23] like about it. So one of the initiatory
[1:03:25] rights of pastor traditions is when the
[1:03:27] young person would come back to the
[1:03:29] village they'd get a different name
[1:03:31] because they were a different person and
[1:03:33] the way that everybody would acknowledge
[1:03:34] they're different they would have a
[1:03:35] different name. So in many cultures
[1:03:38] having more than one name throughout the
[1:03:40] course of life was an indication of
[1:03:43] transforming that life and we weren't
[1:03:46] supposed to turn out at the end to be
[1:03:48] the same as the beginning or even have
[1:03:50] the same name. So
[1:03:51] >> that's what I told him.
[1:03:53] >> That's beautiful. Well, transformation
[1:03:54] as we said at the beginning is as a core
[1:03:56] dynamic of the cosmos and we're part of
[1:03:58] the cosmos. So
[1:03:59] >> we are
[1:04:00] >> it's good to remember it's okay. It's
[1:04:01] okay that everything is in in the
[1:04:03] crystis and we're in this liinal state.
[1:04:05] It's okay
[1:04:05] >> as long as we're changing too.
[1:04:07] >> Everything's going according to plan.
[1:04:09] Yeah. [laughter]
[1:04:11] >> As long as you understand the plan is
[1:04:13] life, death, and rebirth. Yes.
[1:04:15] >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we can all get on
[1:04:17] board with that.
[1:04:19] Thank you, Michael. And um it's great to
[1:04:21] see you and thank you again for all your
[1:04:24] contributions and the words again. I'
[1:04:25] I've been really enjoying what you're
[1:04:27] writing.
[1:04:28] >> All right. Great to see you again. Be
[1:04:29] with you and good good luck with your
[1:04:31] work.
[1:04:32] >> Thank you. Please [music] stay in touch.
[1:04:38] Always see the [music] dangers first.
[1:04:39] Always protect your feet. Always be
[1:04:41] ready for cold. Always be ready for
[1:04:43] heat. Always know where good water
[1:04:45] source [music] is. Always master the
[1:04:47] skills necessary. Always get the job
[1:04:48] done. Always know your place. Always
[1:04:51] disallow foolishness. [music]
[1:04:53] Always rest whenever you can. Whenever
[1:04:55] you can.
[1:04:57] [music]