Transcript
[0:00] People would come to me and they would
[0:02] say, "But Robert, I don't know what my
[0:03] life's task is. I'm in my 20s. You write
[0:06] about it. You write about Da Vinci. You
[0:08] write about all these other people. I
[0:10] have no idea." So, I had to go like,
[0:12] "Why wouldn't they know it?" Because if
[0:15] you think about your early childhood,
[0:18] you had those moments. You knew that you
[0:20] would love this. You love kicking a
[0:23] ball. I had I love sports. But thinking
[0:25] deeply about their experience, I came to
[0:27] realize that first of all, they've lost
[0:30] a deep connection to those childhood
[0:32] experience, to those moments. They
[0:34] forgotten about them. Why have they
[0:36] forgotten about them? All these other
[0:38] voices intervened. Their parents told
[0:41] them what they should love, what they
[0:42] shouldn't love. They had to learn math
[0:44] and they didn't want to learn math. The
[0:46] teachers told them what they were good
[0:47] at, which kind of constrains your brain
[0:50] into a certain career path. We have to
[0:52] cut out all of those voices. We
[0:54] literally had to go back into their
[0:56] childhood to uncover those moments where
[0:59] something sparked and they were excited.
[1:02] Not because their parents told them, but
[1:04] because it was them. Welcome to the
[1:06] Hubberman Lab podcast, where we discuss
[1:08] [music] science and science-based tools
[1:10] for everyday life.
[1:15] I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor
[1:16] of neurobiology and opthalmology at
[1:19] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest
[1:21] today is Robert Green. Robert Green is a
[1:24] renowned author of books such as The
[1:26] Laws of Human Nature, The 48 Laws of
[1:28] Power, and The Art of Seduction. Another
[1:31] one of his books entitled Mastery
[1:33] remains one of my all-time favorite
[1:34] books and is one that I have recommended
[1:36] to the students I've taught in classes,
[1:38] in my laboratory, and to my friends and
[1:40] family and acquaintances for years. But
[1:42] with all of that said, I do believe that
[1:44] the topics Robert discusses today are
[1:46] the most important of all. And I don't
[1:48] say that lightly. Today we talk about
[1:50] the sublime and how to access the
[1:52] sublime. For many of us, we hear the
[1:55] sublime and it sounds abstract, but
[1:57] today Robert explains that accessing the
[2:00] sublime in your daily life is not only
[2:02] possible but is truly the key to a great
[2:04] life. One full of rich experiences in
[2:07] your work, your relationships, your
[2:09] relationship to yourself, to animals,
[2:11] and even to the galaxies. And
[2:12] importantly, today, Robert provides
[2:14] tools and examples for how to access the
[2:16] sublime in daily life. So, it's probably
[2:18] obvious by now that I'm a huge fan of
[2:20] Robert Green as the person and his books
[2:22] and his teaching, including his
[2:24] teachings in today's conversation.
[2:26] You're in for a real gift with this one.
[2:28] So, enjoy. Before we begin, I'd like to
[2:30] emphasize that this podcast is separate
[2:32] from my teaching and research roles at
[2:33] Stanford. It is, however, part of my
[2:35] desire and effort to bring zero cost to
[2:37] consumer information about science and
[2:39] science related tools to the general
[2:41] public. In keeping with that theme,
[2:43] today's episode does include sponsors.
[2:45] And now for my discussion with Robert
[2:47] Green. The Robert Green. Welcome back,
[2:50] >> Andrew Huberman. Well, thank you.
[2:53] >> I'm not shy about my adoration of your
[2:55] book, Mastery.
[2:56] >> Oh, thank you. Thank you.
[2:58] >> Long before I had a podcast, I
[2:59] recommended it to students in my courses
[3:02] related to biology and neuroscience when
[3:05] they would ask for book recommendations.
[3:07] Um, I have a signed copy, thanks to you,
[3:10] on my shelf. I return to it often and
[3:13] I'm thrilled you've written this new
[3:15] book, The Law of the Sublime. Um, I'm so
[3:19] excited. I haven't read it yet because I
[3:21] just got it from you today, but my
[3:24] question is pretty straightforward. So,
[3:26] if 48 Laws of Power was about how the
[3:30] world is constructed and how to navigate
[3:31] it and mastery was about mentorship and
[3:34] how to realize our unique gifts and
[3:37] potential.
[3:37] >> Yeah. and laws of human nature. You've
[3:40] written a lot of books, my friend, is
[3:43] how we understand ourselves and others
[3:46] in the context of general principles.
[3:49] The law of the sublime is about it's
[3:52] about experience. It's about how you
[3:54] experience your day-to-day life. Not in
[3:57] terms of success or power or dealing
[4:01] with other people, but just your sense
[4:04] of how you experience being alive and
[4:07] how you kind of open yourself up to the
[4:10] strangeness of this world that we
[4:12] inhabit. So, I think a lot of our
[4:15] experience now, how we process our our
[4:19] thoughts and emotions is being kind of
[4:21] programmed and controlled in ways we're
[4:23] not aware of. Mh.
[4:26] >> So I like to think of consciousness as
[4:30] this kind of mental space that we
[4:31] inhabit. I envision it in this book as a
[4:34] kind of a circle, right? Although
[4:37] there's really no limits to our
[4:39] consciousness, but this is a circle in
[4:41] which our thoughts kind of move around
[4:44] within sort of certain limits, our
[4:46] behavior, our emotions, what we think of
[4:49] the world, what we think of as reality,
[4:51] right? And within that circle, our
[4:54] experience of life can be kind of
[4:56] constricted. It can be kind of the
[4:57] sameness. Everything seems sort of
[4:59] familiar. Yes, you'll have kind of
[5:03] experiences that might stand out, but
[5:05] they're all still sort of similar. And
[5:08] then you you go on a vacation, you climb
[5:10] a mountain, you come back to your daily
[5:11] routines, it doesn't really stick in
[5:13] you, you know, like when Maslo describes
[5:16] like peak experiences that kind of
[5:18] change you. And so I'm interested in
[5:21] that level of experience that shakes you
[5:23] up, that gets you out of that circle,
[5:26] that makes you aware that there is
[5:28] another reality out there. So I have a
[5:31] chapter in the book about how the brain
[5:33] constructs what we consider as reality.
[5:35] It con it constructs how we perceive the
[5:38] world. It constructs of an ego, a self,
[5:41] and all these other things. But there's
[5:43] something else out there. There's
[5:44] another way of experiencing the world.
[5:47] And so the sublime is something that
[5:49] lies outside that circle, right? There
[5:51] these points. I compare them to
[5:53] doorways. So the word sublime
[5:57] in Latin means up to the threshold of a
[5:59] door. Sublim limon meaning a threshold,
[6:02] right? And so in these doorways to
[6:06] something outside the circle, you're
[6:07] moving closer to it and you're peering
[6:09] through it and you're realizing there's
[6:11] something else. There's something else
[6:12] out there that's not part of your daily
[6:14] experience. And it shakes you up. It
[6:16] gives you a kind of shock. The sublime
[6:19] is a mix of pain and pleasure. The pain
[6:22] is it's outside my comfort zone. It's
[6:25] not what I'm familiar with, but the
[6:27] pleasure is the newness of it, the
[6:29] novelty, the excitement that it
[6:31] generates. And so each of those doorways
[6:35] that I mention are are are chapters in
[6:38] this book. But I'm trying to get you
[6:41] outside of this. So the circle could be
[6:45] rather small. When you were a child,
[6:47] when you were born, that circle was
[6:49] rather large because the world was so
[6:51] new and fresh and unfamiliar and you
[6:54] were excited about everything and your
[6:55] imagination was animating everything
[6:58] around you. And then as you get older,
[7:00] it kind of gets smaller and smaller and
[7:02] gets constricted and flat and you're not
[7:04] using your imagination. Everything is
[7:06] gets kind of dead to you. And so I'm
[7:08] trying to enliven alter your experience
[7:11] of life itself at its roots at it at the
[7:13] very roots of your consciousness. And
[7:16] unlike any of my other books, each
[7:19] chapter ends with exercises that you can
[7:21] use to kind of bring these ideas that
[7:23] I've introduced to you in this specific
[7:26] chapter into your daily experience.
[7:28] Because I don't want this to be an
[7:30] academic book about the sublime and the
[7:34] brain and all these other things. I want
[7:36] it to be something that you incorporate
[7:37] into your daily life.
[7:40] >> Do you march through these sorts of um I
[7:44] want to say doors to perception, but
[7:46] that was
[7:46] >> No, that was Huxley.
[7:47] >> That was Huxley, right? And he um
[7:49] championed the use of LSD to get access
[7:52] to and go through some of those doors um
[7:55] >> and masculine. He was heavily into
[7:56] masculine. Maybe we'll talk a little bit
[7:58] about psychedelics and altering
[7:59] perceptual windows, but I think most
[8:02] people are very familiar with the fact
[8:04] that their daily life and their
[8:06] perceptions are very heavily
[8:08] constrained.
[8:09] >> Yeah.
[8:10] >> Is certainly once we reach adulthood,
[8:12] our experiences might not be mundane,
[8:15] but they're certainly repetitive.
[8:17] >> Yes.
[8:18] >> In the book and and just in general, are
[8:21] you a fan of accessing what you refer to
[8:24] as the sublime on a regular basis? Is
[8:26] this something that we can do like daily
[8:29] through micro practices or is there real
[8:31] value also in things that really take
[8:34] that sphere of everyday experiences and
[8:37] really turn it into a a completely
[8:39] different shaped object.
[8:41] >> I think both. So what happened to me I I
[8:45] did a lot of uh drugs when I was in my
[8:48] early 20s in my late teens and they had
[8:51] a lasting effect on me. I can remember
[8:54] taking one particular trip on Peyote in
[8:57] the town of Mendescino up on the coast
[8:59] in Northern California and I'll never
[9:02] forget the experience and how it altered
[9:04] how I look at just life itself, right?
[9:07] The simplest things. And so when I had
[9:09] the original concept for this book 20
[9:12] years ago, I was going to have things
[9:14] like that. I was going to take drugs
[9:15] like that. I was going to do Iawasa. I
[9:18] was going to go to the Amazon. I was
[9:21] going to do all these adventures
[9:23] swimming with dolphins, seeing champ
[9:25] chimpanzees in in the in Gobi National
[9:28] Forest. Then I had my stroke, right? And
[9:31] so my stroke made it so that my
[9:35] near-death experience kind of brought
[9:37] the sublime back to me in a very real
[9:39] sense. I want to write this book, but I
[9:42] can't travel. I can't do any of these
[9:44] things that I thought I could do. I
[9:46] could take the drugs, but I it' be a
[9:49] little bit dangerous considering I can't
[9:50] walk very well and my balance is bad.
[9:53] So, sitting there in my office, how do I
[9:55] write this book without those kinds of
[9:58] experiences?
[10:00] And I recalled when I just after my
[10:02] stroke, I'm sitting in the hospital bed
[10:04] the first day after kind of trying to
[10:07] process what had happened to me. And I'm
[10:10] looking out the window and everything
[10:12] looks so different to me. It's as if I
[10:14] had just been born. Everything looks
[10:17] strange, isn't it? The sky is blue. It's
[10:19] weird. Clouds are passing. I'm seeing
[10:21] birds in there. I'm seeing trees swaying
[10:23] in the wind. Go. God damn. This world is
[10:25] insane. It is so beautiful. It is so
[10:29] marvelous. I've never noticed it before.
[10:31] It has this incandesence to it. Right.
[10:34] And then it faded. That feeling faded
[10:37] because it was the the shadow of death
[10:39] that had come over me. And it kind of
[10:42] death can create that kind of effect on
[10:44] you. Then I'm home
[10:47] and it's kind of missing and I'm
[10:48] wondering how am I going to able to get
[10:50] the sublime experience it in order to
[10:52] write about it. I start looking out my
[10:54] window again and sort of the feelings
[10:56] start coming back and then I sit out in
[10:59] my backyard which is not very large and
[11:02] I'm seeing like there's this whole world
[11:04] in the backyard. It's it's not the
[11:06] Amazon. It's not Africa, but it's filled
[11:08] with all these insects, all this life,
[11:10] their flowers, their trees. So, my point
[11:13] is the feeling starts coming over me
[11:17] that the sublime is part of our everyday
[11:20] life. It's everywhere around us, right?
[11:23] You could look at this cup here that's
[11:25] in front of us. Normally, we just see a
[11:28] cup that we use to drink out of. But in
[11:31] the sublime and sometimes on drugs and
[11:34] sometimes after death, you look at it's
[11:36] this weird shape. It's this funny color,
[11:39] this handle. It's got it maybe even
[11:42] seems to be alive in some ways. It's got
[11:44] this material aspect to it. Nothing to
[11:47] do with its use value. when you take
[11:49] drugs, you know, even on cannabis that
[11:53] something goes off in your brain where
[11:55] you're looking at things as they are and
[11:57] not as their uses and their functions
[11:59] and the colors and the shapes and the
[12:01] materials strike you just for what they
[12:04] are. And they did when you were a child.
[12:07] So my point is
[12:10] it's all around you. Your body is the
[12:14] product of 800 million years of
[12:17] evolution. Your nervous system was like
[12:19] the first eyes in in in the Cambrian
[12:22] explosion when they first evolved eyes
[12:24] and optic nerves and and a nervous
[12:27] system, right? It's inside of your body.
[12:30] You are a product of all these of
[12:32] evolution. Your body is utterly weird
[12:35] and sublime that it operates with
[12:38] automatically.
[12:39] You know, I just had surgery on my eye
[12:42] because I had a a little sort of
[12:44] cancerous melanoma there. He the doc the
[12:48] surgeon cut into it. He cut in, you
[12:50] know, it's pretty violent. He had to
[12:51] take skin from my ear and replace it
[12:54] there. It's only 10 days later and the
[12:57] skin is growing back. It's insane. It's
[13:00] miraculous. But the body can do. So the
[13:03] sublime doesn't have to be these
[13:04] extraordinary things. Just your
[13:07] day-to-day life is filled with these
[13:10] quasi miracles.
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[15:54] One of the founders, Michael Murphy, is
[15:56] now 96. Yeah.
[15:57] >> And he was describing what we don't know
[15:59] if it was a stroke or it was some other
[16:01] event, but he had sort of a blackout and
[16:03] fall recently. He's very clear-headed
[16:06] and fortunately still still mobile. He
[16:08] was talking about the aftermath of that
[16:12] experience and how um his sort of
[16:16] pixelation of the world was altered in
[16:19] some way that
[16:20] >> has now allowed him to appreciate all
[16:22] these different colors and shapes in the
[16:24] same environment that he's spent so much
[16:27] time. So it matches very well what you
[16:29] described. Yeah.
[16:30] >> And artists like Chuck Close who had
[16:33] visual quote unquote deficits that
[16:35] allowed them to do incredible art at a
[16:37] different kind of spatial scale.
[16:39] >> The famous example is the painter El
[16:41] Greco
[16:42] >> with, you know, his odd shapes and how
[16:44] he figures the human uh body. It's so
[16:47] weird. It's like looking through a
[16:49] concave mirror or something. He had some
[16:51] kind of eye problem, right? There's lots
[16:54] of examples of artists like that.
[16:55] >> Yeah. So it raises this question for me
[16:58] uh which is to access the sublime
[17:02] is it sufficient for us to just think
[17:06] about our current perceptions
[17:09] differently like we so taking away drugs
[17:12] taking away strokes and the level of
[17:16] perception that I have now my perceptual
[17:18] abilities to hear music a certain way
[17:21] and see the world a certain way feel
[17:23] touch a certain way they're constrained
[17:26] But they're pretty vast. This is true
[17:27] for everybody. But I do have the option
[17:30] to think about them differently. Is that
[17:32] one portal into the sublime? Or do we
[17:34] actually need to change our perception,
[17:37] our default perception? Because what you
[17:38] described for you or [clears throat]
[17:40] what Michael Murphy described for him
[17:42] was forced upon them right
[17:43] >> on you and you turned it into gifts. Not
[17:48] the least of which is components of of
[17:50] the book. But for most people and drugs
[17:53] will do this too, right? But is it is
[17:56] there a portal to the sublime through
[17:58] just thinking about our current
[17:59] perception sans's drug sans's brain uh
[18:03] events just differently just to decide
[18:07] I'm going to look at this mug
[18:08] differently and it will have some
[18:11] >> meaningful output.
[18:12] >> Yes. Um, so I talk in the book, there's
[18:15] a chapter what I call the neuros sublime
[18:17] where I'm talking about how the brain
[18:19] constructs the world around us and I
[18:22] discuss I don't know if you've ever had
[18:24] Dr. Jill Bolty Taylor on your on your
[18:26] show.
[18:26] >> I have not.
[18:27] >> But I discuss her stroke and what it did
[18:29] for her. But then there's this Armenian
[18:32] mystic named Gerfv, right? Amazing man.
[18:37] It was the turn of the 20th century and
[18:39] he visited all of the uh most esoteric
[18:44] cults in the Middle East and the Far
[18:46] East because he had this idea that they
[18:48] were about to disappear and he wanted to
[18:50] glean all of their secrets and create
[18:53] this new kind of philosophy that would
[18:54] alter human consciousness.
[18:57] And he had this experiment that he said
[19:00] what makes a human being human is our
[19:03] attention.
[19:04] So, an animal, and God bless, I love
[19:07] animals, but their attention is
[19:09] generally somewhat limited to what's in
[19:11] front of them, to their needs to
[19:13] survive, they're not looking up at the
[19:15] sky and wondering about what's going on,
[19:18] right? They're not thinking about what's
[19:19] on the other side of that mountain and
[19:21] what's happening. So, we have the
[19:23] ability of this incredible attention.
[19:26] And we when we pay attention to
[19:28] something and we focus on it, we kind of
[19:31] alter our brain chemistry and something
[19:33] magical can happen. And he had this
[19:35] notion that people are just sleepwalking
[19:38] through life that they're not awake. He
[19:40] said if a human being were truly awake,
[19:43] there would not be wars. We would not be
[19:44] killing each other. Would not be all
[19:46] this misery that we inflict on fellow
[19:48] humans, right? We're asleep. We're not
[19:50] we're not aware of what we're doing. He
[19:53] had this exercise. He calls it
[19:56] self-remembering. I talk about it in the
[19:58] book and he says you have an experience
[20:01] and a moment in life and you focus on it
[20:04] deeply and you tell yourself you're
[20:05] remembering it. You're going to remember
[20:07] it because what happens is what happened
[20:10] 3 years ago on a day in July. You'll
[20:14] never remember what happened there cuz
[20:16] you were asleep. You weren't paying
[20:17] attention. There are moments in life
[20:20] where you're paying attention where you
[20:21] get some kind of shock and you remember
[20:23] it. He wants you to have that kind of
[20:25] focus every day. So he has this exercise
[20:29] where you look at things deeply and just
[20:31] focus on them. I'm remembering. I'm
[20:33] remembering. I'm I'm experiencing it in
[20:35] the moment.
[20:37] And he had this pupil named Uspensky, a
[20:40] very famous mystic, Russian mystic who
[20:42] was deeply depressed, who was suicidal,
[20:44] and he became a a a pupil, a disciple of
[20:47] Gerv. He starts practicing this. He
[20:50] looks at a vase of flowers in his room,
[20:54] focusing and attending it. I'm
[20:55] remembering it. I'm seeing it. I'm here
[20:57] today. I'm looking at it.
[21:00] After 30 seconds, your mind wanders. He
[21:02] can't do it. But then after a minute, he
[21:05] notices that that flower starts looking
[21:08] different and the degree of his focus
[21:10] and attention on it just as it is. As
[21:13] he's telling himself, I'm going to
[21:14] remember it in three years. It'll be
[21:17] stamped in my memory. He gets better at
[21:19] it and then he walks outside after he
[21:22] gets after months of practicing this
[21:24] just looking at things, simple objects
[21:28] and suddenly the houses look different
[21:30] to him. They look like they're almost
[21:32] like alive. Everything is intense. He's
[21:35] walking outside and he's got this
[21:37] attention, this focus. The world is
[21:39] altering. And then suddenly he finds
[21:43] himself in a tobaconist
[21:46] on completely on the other side of
[21:48] Moscow or St. Petersburg but I don't
[21:49] remember which city cuz what happened he
[21:53] realized that he a moment he fell asleep
[21:56] and he wasn't remembering things and 3
[21:59] hours later he was on the other side of
[22:00] town in a tobacus buying cigarettes.
[22:02] Wow. And what he realized is
[22:05] he had this intense focus remembering
[22:07] where he's awake and now it made him
[22:10] realize that normally in life you are
[22:12] asleep.
[22:14] We don't realize how asleep we are
[22:16] because we don't have that contrast to
[22:18] what it's like to be fully awake. So my
[22:22] point is it's an exercise that can
[22:25] literally alter your neurology in some
[22:28] way. It can alter how you perceive
[22:29] things. It doesn't require drugs. it
[22:32] requires this kind of intense focus and
[22:34] meditation can have the same effect. I
[22:37] do meditation every morning.
[22:40] They've proven that meditation literally
[22:42] alters your brain. There's literally
[22:45] something your thoughts can alter the
[22:47] matter of your the wiring of your brain.
[22:50] So you don't need drugs. Drugs are a
[22:52] wonderful gateway and Huxley describes
[22:54] it beautifully. But there are practices
[22:56] among Tibetan Buddhists, Zen Buddhists
[22:59] where they get similar kind of effects
[23:01] through meditation, right? Or through
[23:04] some of these practices that I
[23:05] mentioned.
[23:07] >> There's this wild finding in
[23:09] neuroscience, visual neuroscience that
[23:11] comes to mind uh that I'll just briefly
[23:13] share with you if you want to reflect on
[23:15] great. And if not, then uh certainly
[23:17] just tell us. So, we assume that when we
[23:20] look at something that our perception of
[23:23] it is pretty stable, but there's this
[23:27] really cool set of experiments where
[23:29] they paralyze the eyes of people.
[23:32] >> Yeah.
[23:33] >> In a reversible way. And and you quickly
[23:36] find that if you look at something, they
[23:38] can perceive it and then it disappears
[23:41] because our nervous system has our eyes
[23:43] move. these sacads as you know but it's
[23:46] all about change in the same way that
[23:47] you walk in a room it smells really good
[23:49] and then the smell disappears but it
[23:50] didn't disappear you got this
[23:51] habituation
[23:52] >> right
[23:53] >> this happens everywhere in the nervous
[23:54] system
[23:55] >> then there's this wild finding that if
[23:58] you continue to have people look at the
[24:01] same location
[24:02] >> the percept of what was there changes in
[24:06] in a significant way [snorts] and of
[24:09] course the physical attributes of the
[24:11] thing didn't change but the but the the
[24:13] perception that the the conversion of
[24:15] those photons into what we perceive the
[24:17] abstraction of what's out there changes.
[24:20] I think it matches precisely with what
[24:22] you're describing. What's so incredible
[24:25] in the example you gave is that the
[24:27] person was able to sort of maintain that
[24:31] shifted perception for long periods of
[24:32] time. It's almost like it enters the
[24:34] memory system. We can get back to the to
[24:36] the perception but also the state that
[24:38] we were in of being quote unquote awake.
[24:41] I find that remarkable. Yeah.
[24:43] >> Because the the the mug, the the vase,
[24:46] the flower, they're beautiful, certainly
[24:48] flowers, but in some sense they're
[24:50] trivial, too, right? Like there's
[24:52] nothing inherently interesting about a
[24:54] mug until I start creating a story about
[24:56] it. Like people designed this, it's got
[24:59] all these wonderful, but you really have
[25:00] to go down that rabbit hole. So the
[25:02] question I have is given how malleable
[25:06] our perceptions are, what
[25:10] quality of meaning is actually
[25:13] meaningful because like on drugs and
[25:17] this is one of the problems with
[25:18] psychedelics or MDMA for instance,
[25:22] >> one has to be very careful certainly on
[25:24] MDMA which this is an pathogenic drug
[25:27] right because you can hear a song and
[25:30] you can fall in love with your love for
[25:32] that song on repeat for four full hours
[25:35] which is perhaps interesting. There
[25:37] might be an insight or few there but in
[25:41] some sense it's not like one could say
[25:44] well that's trivial. you you assigned a
[25:46] meaning to something that's trivial. And
[25:48] I think that's where people get scared
[25:49] that if they start to go through these
[25:52] uh portals to to the sublime that
[25:55] they're going to end up kind of weird,
[25:58] that they're going to be the person
[25:59] that's like, "Did you see how many ants
[26:04] are crawling up that curb?" And you're
[26:06] like, "Yeah, it's cool." But you know,
[26:08] like if you Yeah, if you go down there,
[26:09] I'm sure it's pretty cool, right? But no
[26:11] one, most people don't want to be that
[26:13] guy or that lady all the time because we
[26:18] have a name for that and it's not kind.
[26:21] None of us want to be the crazy person
[26:22] who's who's creating meaning out of the
[26:25] trivial. So, how do we cope with that?
[26:27] Because the way I'm looking at it is
[26:29] you're actually seeing things as they
[26:31] are because your brain is filtering down
[26:34] things for you and creating this
[26:36] familiarity and this sameness so that
[26:39] your mind isn't overwhelmed with chaos
[26:42] >> so that you can get through the you know
[26:45] um Aldos Huxley in in doors of
[26:47] perception was calling the mind at large
[26:50] that if you didn't have this filtering
[26:52] all you would be seeing all of these
[26:53] incredible things but the mind is like
[26:56] this little funnel that just kind of
[26:58] filters and prunes everything that you
[27:00] see.
[27:01] >> So, I'm talking the sublime not as
[27:03] something crazy, not as like, oh,
[27:04] there's all this could be a bunch of
[27:06] ants. I'm actually this is how the world
[27:09] actually is. You're awakening to how
[27:11] things actually are outside of the
[27:14] pruning of your brain. So I talk in the
[27:17] book about the artist Caesan
[27:20] who was obsessed with vision and the
[27:23] visual uh arena and how he could alter
[27:26] his vision by focusing on things right
[27:29] and so his expression was
[27:33] we humans are given consciousness so
[27:35] that we can spread consciousness
[27:37] everywhere. So his his his saying was I
[27:41] am the consciousness of the landscape. I
[27:44] am making the landscape come to life and
[27:47] think and be alive. Right? So he had
[27:50] this idea
[27:51] that mountains are actually living
[27:53] breathing things and that his mind is is
[27:56] giving it life. And he looked at trees
[27:58] like that and he would fall in he would
[28:01] stare at one tree outside of his house.
[28:03] It was like an apricot tree and he would
[28:06] just just every he trying to focus on
[28:09] what what it was, what it actually is.
[28:11] We don't look at things like that
[28:13] anymore. We just see the word tree. We
[28:15] see the category tree. He was seeing the
[28:18] apricots on it. And he was seeing the
[28:20] apricots getting larger as this sun was
[28:23] hitting them, right? Getting sweeter and
[28:25] sweeter and and kind of to him it was
[28:27] like an erotic relationship between the
[28:29] apricot and the sun. Now you might say
[28:32] that's insane. I don't think so. I think
[28:34] it's actually beautiful. I think our
[28:36] minds are allowed. We're not just
[28:38] rational creatures. We are creating
[28:41] emotions through everything we see. And
[28:44] so I get I get a little bit frustrated
[28:46] with how rational our culture has
[28:49] become. So for example, AI,
[28:52] which is the talk everyone's talking
[28:54] about now. People are continually
[28:57] anthropomorphizing AI. It is a machine.
[29:00] It's not conscious. It is a machine that
[29:02] we have programmed. And yet even these
[29:05] very rational scientists are talking
[29:07] about it as if it's conscious. They're
[29:09] anthropomorphizing it. We are creatures
[29:11] that are constantly putting emotions
[29:13] into things. I don't think it's
[29:16] irrational because I think science has
[29:18] that has that basis in it as well. I'm
[29:22] just saying that our thoughts have
[29:23] become so limited and constricted that
[29:25] the ability to see a vase of flowers and
[29:28] see it as this intense strange
[29:31] miraculous thing to actually focus on
[29:33] its colors and the life that it has and
[29:37] how in cutting it and putting it in in
[29:40] this in this water, you're keeping it
[29:42] alive, but it's it's actually cut. So,
[29:44] it's not really living. It's just
[29:47] strange. So, it's not your imagination
[29:51] putting it's actually seeing things as
[29:53] they are, which we don't do.
[29:56] Am I Am I crazy?
[29:57] >> You're definitely not crazy. And I'm And
[29:59] by the way, I'm totally on board. Uh
[30:01] this notion and and the practice of
[30:05] looking at things differently in order
[30:08] to experience life differently, to
[30:10] extract more mean, real meaning from
[30:12] from life. Many times growing up in
[30:14] California, I've been here 51 years. I
[30:17] can remember driving along Highway 101
[30:20] >> and and I would stop and you know and
[30:22] I'd like pee on the side of the road and
[30:25] I would see some like beautiful fence
[30:27] lines. I love fence lines and I would
[30:29] think oh these this fence line looks so
[30:30] old with barbed wire.
[30:32] >> What if you're just in fence lines? I'm
[30:33] curious about that.
[30:34] >> I don't know. I I don't know. I just
[30:36] think they're beautiful and they're a
[30:37] lot of old fence lines along 280 um and
[30:40] along 101 when you drive from Southern
[30:42] to Northern California and just big
[30:45] fields, you know, still undeveloped um
[30:48] to this day. And occasionally you'll see
[30:50] like an old what looks like a cabin
[30:51] that's like no one's bothered to
[30:53] >> take away. It's like falling over and I
[30:56] would
[30:57] >> need to get someplace. So I would get
[30:59] back in my car and drive away. But
[31:01] inevitably when I get out, you know, and
[31:03] pee and then I'd like look at the fence
[31:06] line and I think there's so much
[31:07] interesting detail just in this little
[31:10] um interface between the barbed wire and
[31:12] the wood on the fence line. And I used
[31:14] and I still have this thought. I'm like
[31:16] I could spend all day there.
[31:17] >> Yeah.
[31:18] >> But I have to go someplace else, you
[31:20] know. And then I realize and there there
[31:22] are an infinite number of spatial scales
[31:24] that we can look at things.
[31:26] >> Yeah.
[31:26] >> I I think we can agree that's true. And
[31:29] then there are an infinite number of
[31:30] temporal scales that we can look at
[31:32] things and experience things. And this
[31:34] is the thing I' I'd like to get your
[31:35] your thoughts on.
[31:36] >> So the spatial scale is pretty
[31:38] straightforward for most people to
[31:40] digest. So you say, okay, well, I can
[31:42] look at something very small in my
[31:45] environment, the texture of something or
[31:48] I can look at the whole environment. And
[31:49] we had Der Kelner on the podcast. He's a
[31:52] Berkeley scientist who studies awe. And
[31:54] he said that the experience of awe comes
[31:56] about when we transition quickly from
[31:59] focusing on small spatial scales to big
[32:01] spatial scales. Like walking through a
[32:02] forest and suddenly there's a huge
[32:03] vista.
[32:04] >> Oh wow.
[32:05] >> You know um you're in Neoseity and
[32:06] you're like all of a sudden you reach a
[32:08] peak and it's like you know and vice
[32:10] versa. Big spatial scales to small
[32:11] spatial scales. But most people
[32:12] experience going from small spatial
[32:14] scale to big. Okay.
[32:16] >> So that makes sense. But the time domain
[32:19] is one that is very intriguing to me
[32:22] because
[32:23] >> Oh, so
[32:24] >> on a daily basis, like we're constrained
[32:26] by the circadian rhythm when we're
[32:28] awake, when we're asleep. Okay, no
[32:29] escaping that.
[32:30] >> But we tend to move through life, I
[32:33] realize realized a couple of years ago
[32:35] on the with the same kind of snapshot
[32:39] speed, the same frame rate. You make
[32:41] your coffee, you do your thing, you
[32:42] know, but you can slow this down by
[32:45] taking a higher frame. You can stop and
[32:46] watch your espresso pour with immense
[32:49] amounts of temporal detail. So, you're
[32:51] collecting more information.
[32:53] >> You can't do that all day. He won't do
[32:54] anything else.
[32:55] >> But we can also slow things down, like
[32:57] lie in the yard and look at the clouds
[32:59] pass and start taking
[33:01] >> bigger snapshots. And this to me feels
[33:04] like a critical piece of this
[33:07] perception,
[33:08] you know, accessing the sublime because
[33:11] >> what your story about this gentleman who
[33:13] realized he was in a dream tells us
[33:15] >> is that the space-time filter,
[33:18] >> we're talking about physics but not the
[33:19] cosmos, but the the space-time filter,
[33:22] like how we move through life, the speed
[33:24] of our camera,
[33:25] >> Yeah.
[33:25] >> and the pixel density of our camera, the
[33:28] resolution of our camera
[33:30] >> is everything. So if you're and forgive
[33:34] me for going long here, my audience is
[33:35] probably already saying like let your
[33:36] guest speak. But but there's there the
[33:39] best example I have is my graduate
[33:40] adviser was uh who died at 50, a
[33:43] remarkable woman was dying of cancer and
[33:45] there was two girls and married to a
[33:47] scientist. I was very very close with
[33:48] her family and I will never forget our
[33:50] final conversation and she was telling
[33:52] me about some of the goodness she had
[33:53] experienced recently and she did share
[33:55] with me that
[33:58] she had started in the realization that
[34:00] she was going to be dead soon to think
[34:03] about the tiniest things in the space
[34:06] and time domain like they're all
[34:09] redheads in that family, bright red
[34:10] hair, like like the curls of her
[34:12] daughter's hair moving when she walked
[34:14] into the room to see her.
[34:15] >> Uhhuh. Uhhuh. her frame rate was
[34:18] changing,
[34:18] >> right?
[34:19] >> And I find this to be moving and also in
[34:23] some way that I don't yet understand
[34:24] informative.
[34:25] >> Uhhuh.
[34:26] >> For those of us that hopefully,
[34:28] fortunately, are not close to the end or
[34:31] who are. So, what is your thought about
[34:34] the time domain, this temporal parsing
[34:37] of of experience? I had this thought a
[34:40] while ago that what made childhood so
[34:44] interesting and weird and why we
[34:46] remember it the way it was and why it
[34:48] was so intense was that there was this
[34:50] space between thoughts
[34:53] and that had a big um play on our
[34:56] conception of time.
[34:58] >> Right? So now our stream of
[35:00] consciousness is like broken up into a
[35:02] million different fragments. I'm
[35:04] thinking of you right now. in 2 seconds
[35:06] I'll be thinking of my cat. You know,
[35:08] it'll bounce back and forth between the
[35:10] thoughts are just continual. But when
[35:12] you were a child, there was like this
[35:15] space. You would think something, then
[35:17] there would be this kind of emptiness.
[35:19] There would be like a minute would go
[35:20] by, there wouldn't be another thought,
[35:22] then there would be another one. And
[35:24] that space in between thoughts
[35:27] created a different rhythm of life. So
[35:30] when you're living, particularly
[35:31] nowadays with the Instagram model where
[35:35] you're just your attention is broken up
[35:37] into millions of little splinters, time
[35:40] has this rhythm that's just not life.
[35:43] It's just not how life should be. It's
[35:45] just way too fast. It's way too broken
[35:47] up. But that sense of there's a space
[35:50] between my two thoughts. There's like
[35:52] this emptiness creates this kind of flow
[35:55] of time that's much different.
[35:57] So I talk in the book about the
[36:00] childhood experience of time which kind
[36:02] of fascinates me. And so I have the
[36:05] example in there of this writer Nabacov
[36:08] the the famous novelist who was obsessed
[36:11] with his childhood. And the reason he
[36:12] was obsessed with it was he had this
[36:15] kind of magical childhood growing up in
[36:17] Russia. His father was wealthy. They had
[36:19] this amazing villa out in the country.
[36:22] His life was just full of all these
[36:24] adventures and he studied butterflies
[36:27] intensely. And then the Russian
[36:29] revolution breaks out. His father is
[36:32] murdered as as someone who's wealthy.
[36:35] They have to leave uh Russia. His mother
[36:38] dies in an apartment in Berlin. He has
[36:41] to flee with his Jewish wife to New York
[36:44] because the Nazis are there. His brother
[36:46] dies in a concentration camp. His whole
[36:48] family is gone. He can never return to
[36:52] Russia because Stalin is now in power,
[36:54] right? He has no photographs, no
[36:57] memorabilia, no family left. But he has
[36:59] this memory of this magical childhood.
[37:02] And so his experiment, he wrote a book
[37:04] called Speak Memory in which he tries to
[37:07] recreate the experience of his childhood
[37:10] in the adult mind, remembering it, not
[37:13] remembering facts, but remembering the
[37:15] experience. And so he talks a lot about
[37:18] time. And so the image is that when
[37:21] you're a child, time is something that's
[37:24] inside of you. Our concept of time is
[37:27] something outside. It's abstract, right?
[37:30] The minutes are passing. So the image I
[37:34] use, it's of like time is like a river.
[37:36] It's a flow. And when you're a child,
[37:39] you're in in the river and you're
[37:41] feeling the flow and moments are passing
[37:43] by. It's living inside of you. When
[37:46] you're an adult, you're on the shoreline
[37:48] and you're looking at time passing by
[37:50] and you have this. You can look at the
[37:51] past, the future, wherever your mind
[37:53] takes you. And time has this different
[37:55] rhythm. But when you're a child, it's
[37:57] inside of you're part of that flow. And
[38:00] he remembers that he was thinking at
[38:03] times like, "My god, we're all alive at
[38:06] the same time. All these we're all these
[38:08] humans bathing in this river at the same
[38:10] time. We're alive. We feel it." I don't
[38:13] know if this concept is is too abstract
[38:16] to for you to understand but in my
[38:18] meditations as I'm thinking about the
[38:21] passage of time because what will happen
[38:22] when you meditate
[38:24] you meditate for 40 I meditate for 40
[38:27] minutes and sometimes it like passes by
[38:29] and you don't even you're not even aware
[38:31] your concept of time is altered by the
[38:34] slowness of this process right and I
[38:37] will feel that time is inside of me that
[38:40] I have this flow it's a physical
[38:42] sensation of time passing. I'm alive
[38:46] moment to moment. I'm inside the present
[38:48] moment. Time has this different rhythm
[38:51] and that is a sublime experience of
[38:53] time. And I take readers through that
[38:56] exercise of the actual river and
[38:58] actually feeling yourself inside the
[39:00] river and feeling the flow of time. It
[39:03] has a much different consciousness
[39:05] effect on our consciousness when you go
[39:07] through this process.
[39:09] I have an absolute obsession of about
[39:11] this uh time perception thing in no
[39:14] small part because if as a younger
[39:17] person I realize I could look at the
[39:19] fence line in great detail or keep
[39:21] moving on
[39:23] >> at this conversation with Barbara it was
[39:25] the our last conversation before she
[39:27] passed. I went on to realize it's not
[39:29] uncommon that as people get closer and
[39:30] closer to the end, provided they are
[39:33] lucid, and she was, it's as if there was
[39:35] an avalanche of new and beautiful
[39:39] information pouring in. And I should
[39:41] point out this was not the the report of
[39:44] somebody who was like kind of drifting
[39:46] away. I mean, that was part of the
[39:48] sadness of it all. She was very present
[39:50] but in that presence she was able to
[39:52] extract what seemed like many many years
[39:55] of experience
[39:57] >> and in a non she was a very calm person
[39:59] always and in a very non anxious or
[40:02] urgent way it's as if the end was coming
[40:05] and instead of freaking out her her
[40:09] perception the camera onto the world
[40:12] just became super high resolution
[40:14] >> right
[40:15] >> and at you know near infinity frame
[40:18] Right. And she was just reporting these
[40:20] things.
[40:21] >> This is as she's dying.
[40:23] >> Well, she was about a week out at that
[40:24] point.
[40:25] >> Yeah.
[40:25] >> So close. Yeah.
[40:26] >> I have a whole chapter on death and the
[40:28] death sublime and near-death
[40:30] experiences.
[40:32] And what often happens in the death
[40:34] process is the brain is dying as well,
[40:38] right? And as the brain dies, some of
[40:41] the things the constructions of the
[40:43] brain such as time, right? and such as
[40:46] vision and such as the self start
[40:49] breaking down, start dissolving.
[40:52] Near-death experiencers have this sense
[40:54] sometimes of ecstasy as they're dying.
[40:57] Now, not all of them, and the studies of
[41:00] near-death experiences,
[41:02] about 85%, I'm just throwing out that
[41:04] number, are positive, but then there's
[41:06] the hellish near-death experience. So
[41:08] they're not all angels and beauty and
[41:10] stuff, but a lot of people are dying and
[41:13] they feel the ego dissolving and they
[41:15] feel the sense of abstract time
[41:17] dissolving. They feel all the social
[41:19] pressures of life dissolving and they're
[41:22] ecstatic. They're elated. It's like a
[41:24] liberation, right? It's the sense that
[41:27] time is actually much more plastic than
[41:30] we think it is. The first person to
[41:32] study near-death experiences was in the
[41:34] 19th century was this man named Albert
[41:36] Heheim. He was a Swiss man. He was an
[41:39] alpine climber when he was very young.
[41:41] And when he was like 21, he fell as he
[41:44] was climbing. He was going to die. It
[41:46] was like a 100 foot fall. And as he's
[41:48] falling, suddenly he remembers his whole
[41:51] life, right? All these things he starts
[41:54] revisiting it. And then later he starts
[41:57] to wants to analyze it and he goes
[42:00] in 15 seconds of a fall I had
[42:04] experienced like years of things
[42:06] happening right the condensation was
[42:08] insane. He wrote an article about it and
[42:12] suddenly hundreds of other articles
[42:15] start coming to him of people who had
[42:17] near-death who fell in climbing uh
[42:20] accidents and had the same experience
[42:23] and people who like jump off Golden Gate
[42:25] Bridge. The few who survive and there
[42:27] are some people who survive speak of the
[42:29] same thing. their experience of time as
[42:32] they're falling and as they're about to
[42:33] die is completely altered and in just
[42:36] those 10 seconds it's as if they lived
[42:39] like 5 years or something. So our sense
[42:42] of time is not so logical and rational
[42:45] as we think it is and we can alter our
[42:48] perception of time literally by how we
[42:50] think and how we experience life.
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[44:05] subscription. One of the reasons I love
[44:07] aquaria and I have so many fish tanks is
[44:10] that whether there's one fish or octopus
[44:13] or many when you look at a fish tank or
[44:16] an ocean scene of any kind, the mind
[44:19] enters this weird state because you
[44:22] can't control nor you can nor can you
[44:24] predict what's going to happen next. If
[44:26] a fish is swimming leftward, you sort of
[44:28] predict it will continue to swim
[44:29] leftward but then as soon as you predict
[44:30] that it gen it moves. And so there's
[44:33] this you sort of have to let go of your
[44:35] anticipation of what's going to happen
[44:36] next. There's some constraints,
[44:39] >> but it puts my mind into this like it's
[44:44] almost like a it releases something.
[44:46] It's the the expectation component is
[44:49] just has to unlatch
[44:50] >> and in that I think you get additional
[44:52] perception.
[44:53] >> That's interesting. It
[44:54] >> just unlatches. I mean there's nothing
[44:56] you can do. I think looking at the shore
[44:58] at the ocean is the same. the waves roll
[45:00] in generally, you know, objects fall
[45:02] down as opposed to up. We we know this,
[45:04] but I think it's the the presence of of
[45:07] unpredictable things. We we just accept
[45:09] it and then the brain just goes
[45:11] someplace new and and I think useful.
[45:14] >> This is slightly off a little bit off
[45:16] what you're saying, but there's a story
[45:17] in there about a man who had a
[45:19] relationship with an octopus. So, I
[45:20] think you can relate to that. He wrote
[45:22] he did that famous movie, My Friend the
[45:24] Octop, right? Right. Mhm.
[45:26] >> But he actually has a story about he
[45:28] wrote a book about it and he essentially
[45:32] decides that he's going to cold dive off
[45:34] the coasts of South Africa where he grew
[45:36] up. Incredibly cold temperatures.
[45:39] There's a kelp forest, which is a kind
[45:42] of a strange concept, right? It's a
[45:44] forest underwater of all this
[45:46] magnificent kelp and the weirdest
[45:48] creatures live in there, including
[45:50] octopus. And he he's not going there
[45:53] looking for octopus. He's he's free
[45:54] diving in this very cold water exploring
[45:57] this insane landscape and he comes upon
[46:01] an octopus
[46:03] and they slowly become friends and they
[46:06] have a slightly erotic relationship.
[46:08] It's clear the way he describes it that
[46:10] there was like this love interest and
[46:11] this sort of eroticism because at one
[46:14] point the octopus, you know, grabs his
[46:18] arm and he can feel it and it's like
[46:20] it's pretty intense and then at one
[46:22] moment the octopus has grabbed him and
[46:24] they float together to the top and it
[46:27] was like this this love thing going on
[46:28] between them, right? And then of course,
[46:31] as you know, the octopus dies, right?
[46:34] and he's he's heartbroken about and
[46:36] that's when he decides he's going to do
[46:37] this. Well, he's been he's been filming
[46:39] the whole thing and he's going to create
[46:41] this film. But my point is in the six or
[46:45] eight months that he had this
[46:46] relationship quote unquote with this
[46:48] octopus, his whole concept of time was
[46:51] altered because he was living in her
[46:54] time. It was a female obviously laid
[46:56] eggs and died.
[46:59] Imagine an octopus lives for 3 years at
[47:02] most. And he saw all these intense
[47:05] experiences. It got attacked by a shark.
[47:06] It lost some of its limbs. The limbs
[47:09] grew back.
[47:11] This three years, what is its sense of
[47:14] time compressed in those three years is
[47:16] just all of these incredible
[47:18] experiences. And he felt in being close
[47:21] to this octopus, he was like living in
[47:24] her time period. Time was passing at a
[47:26] diff much different rhythm as he was
[47:29] living in her world. And so the idea is
[47:32] that there are animal insects that live
[47:35] for like a month, right? And so our
[47:38] experience of time is relative to our
[47:41] time span as well. And in these kind of
[47:44] encounters
[47:46] with other species, we can kind of some
[47:48] ways alter our concept of time. If you
[47:50] try to experiment that with your dog,
[47:52] you might find something similar. How
[47:55] does your dog experience time? I I feel
[47:57] like uh this conversation was like
[47:59] designed to enchant me. So I'm just
[48:02] thank you. Yeah. You know that having
[48:05] had dogs and now another puppy, you I'm
[48:07] familiar with the rhythm. You entrain to
[48:09] their rhythm and they to you.
[48:11] >> This is a big part of the relationship.
[48:13] Like the daily walk becomes a
[48:14] prerequisite. It's not a it's not an
[48:16] option. The dog needs it and and and you
[48:19] learn to love everything about it. And
[48:20] that word feels really relevant here.
[48:22] Entrainment. You know, we're we're bound
[48:24] to this circadian rhythm, this 24-hour
[48:26] rhythm. As I mentioned earlier, nobody
[48:27] escapes it. Some people need more sleep
[48:29] than others, but nobody escapes it. But
[48:32] everything else, we're sort of entrained
[48:34] to a particular schedule, and our body
[48:36] learns to anticipate things and adjust
[48:38] our perception, our energy levels to
[48:40] when we exercise, when we work, when we
[48:43] see our um significant other and or dog
[48:46] or both. The idea that we can access
[48:49] different time perception references,
[48:52] time domains through interactions with
[48:54] other species is like absolutely
[48:56] thrilling to me. Absolutely thrilling.
[48:58] And I will say, having had several
[49:00] octopuses now and cuttlefish prior to
[49:02] that that um I had Oh, yeah. I had many
[49:05] cuttlefish in my lab in San Diego. Wow.
[49:08] >> I think we had 40 cuttlefish at one
[49:09] point. And they're like little
[49:10] underwater Hufflepod monkeys. They're
[49:13] also incredibly intelligent and do all
[49:15] sorts of wild stuff
[49:16] >> and they cam changing colors.
[49:18] >> Beautiful camouflage ability and and
[49:20] they can camouflage half their body. The
[49:22] males will sometimes in the wild will um
[49:25] camouflage as females and then enter a
[49:27] clutch of females and then mate with
[49:28] them. You know, uh a separate podcast
[49:31] could discuss the ethics or lack thereof
[49:33] of of that. But in any case, I think
[49:36] they're referred to in the scientific
[49:37] literature as sneaky [laughter]
[49:40] >> Doesn't sound very scientific to me.
[49:42] Yeah, you know, well, evolutionary
[49:43] biologists is sort of like two rules is
[49:45] the joke. They tend to hyphenate their
[49:47] names even if they aren't married. It's
[49:50] a sort of a weird quirk of evolution
[49:52] biologists some. And the other is that
[49:55] they love to insert cursing into their
[49:57] scientific papers. It's like it's like a
[49:59] thing.
[50:00] >> I have no idea.
[50:01] >> In any case, my mom's an avid gardener
[50:03] and and she spends time with her tomato
[50:06] plants and her plants. I think I think
[50:08] that we can access these different time
[50:10] portals through interactions with
[50:12] plants.
[50:12] >> Sure. Of course,
[50:14] >> what you're describing is and and the
[50:15] reason I'm enchanted is is that it's
[50:17] really like the richness of life is
[50:20] available to us when we let go of our
[50:22] kind of mostly humanmade things. And I
[50:25] don't [clears throat] want to focus on
[50:26] the negative, but because there are
[50:29] certainly positive attributes of
[50:31] technology, but I'm concerned that
[50:34] something about excessive use of social
[50:37] media is that you said earlier that
[50:41] we're programmed, but that we're like
[50:43] with each passing year, we're becoming
[50:45] more and more locked to one time
[50:49] space-time relationship,
[50:50] >> right? and an expectation of dopamine
[50:55] updating and novelty, etc.,
[50:57] >> and going away for a weekend without the
[51:00] phone, um, or getting a a total night's
[51:02] sleep without the phone in the room.
[51:04] >> Yeah.
[51:05] >> Um, not looking at it for the first 30
[51:07] minutes of the day. I think anyone who's
[51:09] done those things will say that it
[51:10] significantly alters and improves one's
[51:13] experience of the rest of the day.
[51:16] >> Right. Right.
[51:17] >> So maybe we are being programmed, not to
[51:19] sound paranoid,
[51:20] >> well, we are. And it it's it's whose
[51:22] interest are we being programmed for? I
[51:25] mean, um, is it is it just to to make
[51:28] money? Because if people's attention
[51:31] spans are kind of con constantly being
[51:33] splintered this way, it's harder to
[51:35] focus. It's much more you're much more
[51:38] vulnerable to influence,
[51:40] >> right?
[51:42] to advertisements to to all kinds of
[51:44] gimmicks and things that are being
[51:46] implanted in your brain because you're
[51:49] not able to focus deeply enough and
[51:51] think independently. So there's that
[51:53] danger and then on the level of mastery
[51:57] in which I'm talking about how the human
[51:59] brain functions and what it wants and
[52:01] what what it needs as nourishment is it
[52:05] needs slowness. It needs the slow pace
[52:08] of learning bit by bit by bit by bit
[52:12] progressing and then the brain alters as
[52:15] new pathways are created. And so you are
[52:18] literally in charge of your brain and
[52:20] how you the landscape of your brain. And
[52:23] when it's like this other rhythm that
[52:26] people are programming for you, it's a
[52:28] landscape. It's like a desert. There's
[52:30] no life coming up in it. there's no
[52:32] connections that are happening and
[52:34] you're such so much more vulnerable to
[52:37] people's influence, right? And that's to
[52:39] me the scary part. Yeah. One of the most
[52:42] impressive things I saw in the last year
[52:44] or so is this um gold medalist at the
[52:47] Olympics, a freestyle skier from um this
[52:50] woman who's at Stanford, I think her
[52:52] name is Ailen Goo. There's a press
[52:54] conference uh where somebody asks her,
[52:56] "What do you do to like train your mind?
[52:58] you seem so articulate and and so sharp
[53:01] and um and in my mind I'm thinking you
[53:03] know uh
[53:05] >> lean is clearly uh you know you know far
[53:08] to the the right of average on on many
[53:10] many things right but at Stanford and
[53:13] elsewhere but I will say often at
[53:15] Stanford you encounter this phenotype
[53:17] >> like extremely articulate and very fast
[53:20] and very present yeah it's like a thing
[53:23] and again not just at Stanford but there
[53:25] are a lot of them among the
[53:26] undergraduates especially
[53:28] So her answer is is incredible. Her
[53:31] answer was about slowness, not about
[53:34] speed.
[53:35] >> Her answer was that she spends a lot of
[53:37] time in her head thinking about her
[53:38] thinking, pressure testing her beliefs
[53:41] and understanding. And from that she
[53:43] realized she can shape her thoughts
[53:45] through neuroplasticity and become the
[53:47] person she wants to be. Wow. And then
[53:49] and then in a very um delightful way she
[53:52] she throws in that she's young and
[53:53] therefore she also still has plasticity.
[53:55] So she's not done, she's still going. So
[53:57] the but the the interesting part about
[53:58] it there are many interesting things
[53:59] about her but the the interesting part
[54:02] of that was that the speed that she can
[54:06] access is the reflection of the slowness
[54:09] >> uhhu
[54:10] >> the the the
[54:12] slowing down rather uh of her process to
[54:15] get there and I think it's a wonderful
[54:17] example because we only see the end
[54:18] product and we think she skis and she's
[54:20] brilliant and she's articulate and
[54:22] everything for her must just go you know
[54:24] fire off at you know 12 cylinders all
[54:26] the Well, I know I read a quote a long
[54:28] time ago from the quarterback John
[54:30] Elway, the great Denver Broncos
[54:31] quarterback, and he said the secret to
[54:34] his incredible success was that
[54:37] everything slowed down on the football
[54:39] field cuz normally things are happening
[54:42] in hyper speeds, right? You wonder how
[54:44] can how can anybody function on He says,
[54:46] I got to a level where everything was
[54:49] just slowing down and I could see
[54:50] exactly where things were moving. So his
[54:54] brain through mastering a process, which
[54:57] is what I describe in that book, is able
[54:59] to literally slow things down and see
[55:01] things that other people couldn't see.
[55:04] I'd love your thoughts on
[55:06] experience
[55:08] versus report of experience and
[55:11] different ways to report experience.
[55:14] Here's my motivation for this question.
[55:17] I think people are experiencing things,
[55:21] but a lot of times they're recording it
[55:23] now as they do it.
[55:24] >> Yeah.
[55:25] >> In order to share it with other people.
[55:27] And the the motivation for that is
[55:29] entirely understandable. But you look at
[55:31] a concert, everyone's filming the
[55:32] concert and they're sharing it with the
[55:34] people who can't be there. So there's a
[55:35] really nice component to it. But if
[55:37] somebody, let's say, goes on a big
[55:39] adventure, a long backpacking trip trip
[55:41] trip in Yoseite or down to the Amazon,
[55:44] some people are doing that and not
[55:46] reporting it to anyone. But I think now
[55:48] because of camera phones and social
[55:50] media, most people are thinking about if
[55:54] and how they will report the experience
[55:56] they're having, if not in real time,
[55:58] later.
[55:59] >> Yeah. And you on the other hand,
[56:02] although there are clips of you on
[56:03] podcasts and so forth on social media,
[56:06] we're all grateful for that. You've
[56:08] chosen to do the long time scale
[56:12] reporting of your adventures and
[56:14] experiences.
[56:15] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[56:16] >> And movies are like that, too. Couple
[56:18] hours, but still long form compared to
[56:20] social media. And you
[56:22] >> beautifully described this thing about
[56:23] entering the time scale of the octopus's
[56:26] life or the dog's daily experience.
[56:29] And I I was thinking to myself, well,
[56:32] kind of like movies I've fallen in love
[56:34] with, um, concerts that transformed me,
[56:37] you know, they required that I actually
[56:39] just be there and not think about the
[56:41] export of that experience at all.
[56:43] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[56:44] >> So, once again, I'm wondering, are we
[56:47] limiting ourselves? Are we getting
[56:49] locked into the technology that is
[56:52] really limiting our experience? And what
[56:55] was the value for you in doing a
[56:57] long-term writing of this book?
[57:00] >> Well, it was more than long-term writing
[57:02] because I couldn't type. So, my left
[57:05] hand is still kind of frozen. And so, I
[57:08] had to handw write the entire book. You
[57:12] We're talking about slowness. I had a
[57:15] system of two bookstands, one next to
[57:17] each other, a notebook. I would write a
[57:20] story in the notebook by hand.
[57:24] I would then edit it by hand, recopying
[57:27] what I had written and occasionally
[57:29] changing a word and then going back and
[57:32] doing the same thing there and then
[57:34] going back and doing it again. So I had
[57:37] to like my it altered my thought
[57:39] processes because I was used to typing
[57:41] very fast, right? This was a whole
[57:44] different layer of thinking that I had
[57:46] to go through because when you're
[57:48] handwriting, your thinking really has to
[57:50] slow down. you have to focus very deeply
[57:52] because you can't like quickly change
[57:54] things right so it it created for me a
[57:57] different kind of book I think that
[57:59] slowness factor but part of the sublime
[58:03] is getting outside the human the human
[58:07] realm right
[58:09] >> okay so we live in this period where we
[58:13] never interact with anything that's not
[58:15] human right so even if you're in the
[58:18] wild you're in yuseite or thing. You're
[58:20] still with your phone. You're still
[58:22] navigating with your phone. You're still
[58:25] recording it so people can see you.
[58:27] You're immersed in the social human
[58:29] world, right? And it's this little
[58:31] bubble that you live in. But life is
[58:34] much greater than the human. There's a
[58:36] universe. There's a cosmos. There's
[58:38] animals. There's landscapes. There's the
[58:40] weirdness of being alive. There's time.
[58:43] All these things that can you can
[58:44] explore and you can alter. But if you're
[58:47] so locked into the human social world,
[58:49] you cannot access the sublime. Right?
[58:52] And in ancient cultures, there's a lot
[58:54] of things in there about our indigenous
[58:56] and our ancient ancestors, cuz I'm
[58:58] obsessed with that as I am with
[59:00] childhood.
[59:01] And for them, they they look at the
[59:04] world and they see like plants coming up
[59:08] out of the ground. They see enormous
[59:10] mastadons and bears that are twice the
[59:12] size of what bears are now. And they're
[59:14] going they are obsessed with what isn't
[59:17] human and that's where religion start
[59:19] from and that's where spirituality
[59:21] starts from is all these things that
[59:23] transcend the human and how insane it is
[59:26] that life dies and then reemerges out of
[59:29] the ground that these large animals are
[59:31] created. Okay. So part of being human is
[59:34] this obsession with what isn't human.
[59:37] What transcends us as a species.
[59:40] fascinations with just the elements,
[59:42] with the clouds, with the sky, with
[59:45] everything around us that isn't just the
[59:47] social world. And so when you're so
[59:49] locked in and you have to climb a
[59:52] mountain, I have a lot of things in
[59:54] there about climbing mountains, which
[59:56] can be an incredibly sublime experience
[59:59] because if you think about it, you're
[1:00:01] literally climbing up the the the the
[1:00:03] side of something that's millions of
[1:00:05] years old that predates humans, right?
[1:00:09] that emerged out of the ground out of
[1:00:10] this incredible process. You're climbing
[1:00:13] into the sky. You're there. You're like
[1:00:15] almost like a bird, right? You're you're
[1:00:18] leaving the oxygen levels are changing.
[1:00:20] Your brain is changing. Climbing a
[1:00:22] mountain can be an incredibly sublime
[1:00:24] experience. And mountain climbers
[1:00:27] have some of the have reported some of
[1:00:29] the most sublime experiences
[1:00:31] because at every moment, particularly
[1:00:33] rock climbing, they could die, right?
[1:00:36] and the intensity of life and death, it
[1:00:38] just makes it an addiction. Okay? But if
[1:00:41] you're climbing the mountain and you're
[1:00:42] like filming it and looking at it and
[1:00:44] look and navigating through it, you're
[1:00:46] not you're not experiencing the mountain
[1:00:48] itself. So the technology is actually a
[1:00:53] major roadblock to experiencing the
[1:00:55] sublime. It doesn't have to be. It
[1:00:58] doesn't have to be. You could use it as
[1:00:59] a tool and an instrument. So I I looked
[1:01:03] online for like things that are going on
[1:01:06] with space and the new telescopes that
[1:01:08] they have launched and the images from
[1:01:10] NASA about our universe that is utterly
[1:01:14] sublime and I can't access that
[1:01:15] directly. I can't climb into the sky and
[1:01:18] see these things. So I'm not totally
[1:01:20] against technology. You can use it to
[1:01:23] sort of mind these incredible things
[1:01:25] that science is uncovering, but it's not
[1:01:28] about my reporting it back to other
[1:01:30] people. It's not about the social aspect
[1:01:33] of the Hubble of the Ver Rubin telescope
[1:01:36] and and you know what it means to me and
[1:01:38] my ego and how my influ
[1:01:41] can follow that. It's just about the
[1:01:43] experience itself, right? So technology
[1:01:47] can be used for the sublime if it's not
[1:01:49] about your influencing and about the the
[1:01:52] social element. Is it fair to say that
[1:01:56] when we try to experience
[1:02:00] life at the same speed that we're going
[1:02:02] to report those experiences, something
[1:02:05] crucial is lost.
[1:02:07] >> Yeah. Because one of the great joys for
[1:02:10] me in doing laboratory science which I
[1:02:13] haven't done in a few years we shut my
[1:02:16] lab basically in 2023 24 because my
[1:02:19] posttos moved on and I was doing this
[1:02:21] other podcast thing was I would spend
[1:02:24] years looking at things down the
[1:02:25] microscope
[1:02:26] >> collecting data observing things and of
[1:02:29] course the job of a scientist is to then
[1:02:32] take those
[1:02:33] >> observations and then put them into
[1:02:36] photo microraph form and put them out
[1:02:38] into the world for evaluation and
[1:02:40] sharing.
[1:02:40] >> Yeah.
[1:02:41] >> But
[1:02:42] >> the process of writing a paper is a
[1:02:45] whole different biz going to seminars
[1:02:47] and talking about the work. It's it's at
[1:02:48] a completely different speed or a
[1:02:50] completely different spatial scale. But
[1:02:52] >> the adventure was down the microscope.
[1:02:54] The report of the adventure was in
[1:02:55] papers and at meetings.
[1:02:56] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[1:02:57] >> I never thought about the meetings or
[1:02:58] the paper as I was doing the work. It
[1:03:01] was like a is a totally different set of
[1:03:02] brain circuits. And that's sort of a bit
[1:03:04] of what you're describing here. And I
[1:03:06] wonder, you know, our mutual friend Rick
[1:03:08] Ruben Hill, he talks a lot about how he
[1:03:10] encourages artists to forget about how
[1:03:12] they're going to be perceived in order
[1:03:14] to do their best work, which then of
[1:03:15] course is perceived in the best way.
[1:03:18] >> Yeah.
[1:03:18] >> That but you have to get out of the the
[1:03:21] delivery mode.
[1:03:23] >> And so going to a concert and filming
[1:03:25] yourself for the rest of the world
[1:03:27] there, it's it's like a collision of of
[1:03:29] brain circuits and and it's almost like
[1:03:31] detracts from the experience. Yesterday
[1:03:34] I was driving back from Topeka. I was
[1:03:36] being in a in a limo chauffeered back to
[1:03:38] my house and I'm listening to music
[1:03:41] and I'm listening to this um recording
[1:03:44] of of Scarati, this composer by by
[1:03:47] Horowitz, the famous pianist. And I'm
[1:03:50] trying to like get inside of each note
[1:03:53] and follow the music as it flows. And
[1:03:55] it's very difficult. My mind was
[1:03:57] continually wandering. But as I'm going
[1:03:59] inside the flow of the music, which
[1:04:02] alters your experience of time, by the
[1:04:04] way, I'm starting to see things in the
[1:04:07] music itself and I'm thinking the
[1:04:09] rhythms and the patterns and certain
[1:04:12] falling of notes has this emotional
[1:04:15] effect that's very interesting. And so
[1:04:17] I'm thinking along with the music and
[1:04:20] I'm inside the notes and I'm inside the
[1:04:22] progression and I'm inside the
[1:04:24] composer's mind who composed it. I'm
[1:04:27] reliving his experience as he composed
[1:04:29] the music. And so the music has this
[1:04:33] level of experience, this level of being
[1:04:35] inside of it that can be very powerful
[1:04:38] because music
[1:04:40] is utterly sublime. I have a lot of
[1:04:43] things in there about music because
[1:04:45] music takes us back to our preverbal
[1:04:48] roots. Birds sing. Language probably
[1:04:52] evolved from music itself, right?
[1:04:55] And music itself, instrumental music
[1:04:58] doesn't have words, but it feels like
[1:05:01] the essence of our emotions of our
[1:05:03] consciousness. Right? So when you're
[1:05:05] able to enter into music and and I have
[1:05:08] a ch an exercise where you think
[1:05:10] musically and you follow the notes and
[1:05:12] you follow the logic and the
[1:05:13] progression, it's a very sublime
[1:05:16] experience. But if you're at a concert,
[1:05:18] first of all, it's a little harder at a
[1:05:20] concert because the music is of a
[1:05:21] different order, but you can still do
[1:05:22] that. I remember I'm going to date
[1:05:25] myself and people are going to be
[1:05:26] laughing at me, but I would go to
[1:05:28] Grateful Dead concerts in the 70s when I
[1:05:30] was in college and you could still have
[1:05:32] that that what I'm doing with Scarlotti
[1:05:34] I would do with some of their long
[1:05:38] instrumental pieces which were quite
[1:05:39] sublime.
[1:05:41] So when you're doing that, you're not
[1:05:43] inside the music. You're you're like
[1:05:45] recording it. You're just it's just like
[1:05:47] this it's just like entertainment or
[1:05:50] something to like stimulate you on this
[1:05:52] base level. There's a way of
[1:05:54] experiencing things where you're inside
[1:05:56] them and not outside. And movies are the
[1:06:00] same way. I like when I watch a movie
[1:06:04] particularly of of a different period of
[1:06:06] time or from the past I like to feel
[1:06:09] like I'm inside the actual movie itself
[1:06:12] that I'm actually can experience it as
[1:06:14] if I am there. So when you're so
[1:06:18] immersed in how other people are looking
[1:06:20] at you and that your only way of of
[1:06:23] thinking about it is in terms of how
[1:06:25] other people are seeing it. You're not
[1:06:27] experiencing the actual cultural moment.
[1:06:30] And culture can and should be sublime if
[1:06:33] you if you experience it differently.
[1:06:35] >> And it seems that our best experiences
[1:06:38] will always come about from being really
[1:06:40] present to that work and experiences. I
[1:06:43] mean, in a perhaps overly simplistic
[1:06:45] way, going to a concert and choosing to
[1:06:48] not merge with the performers, but
[1:06:51] rather merge with people who aren't
[1:06:52] there means that you are in many ways
[1:06:55] not there.
[1:06:56] >> Yeah. Again, I get the motivation of
[1:06:58] people wanting to share, but it's a bit
[1:07:00] of a gimmick and a and a heck of a trap
[1:07:02] because ultimately like the sum total of
[1:07:06] your life is these like experiences that
[1:07:09] are mundane, but you can, as you point
[1:07:11] out, you can convert those into sublime
[1:07:13] experiences and the big stuff, the peak
[1:07:15] experiences. I mean, those are awesome,
[1:07:17] too.
[1:07:18] >> And there's no reason to not report
[1:07:19] things. But I do think that the speed of
[1:07:22] the reporting
[1:07:24] and the fact that it happened separate
[1:07:26] from the experience seems very very
[1:07:28] important. I think about a like a news
[1:07:31] anchor.
[1:07:32] >> I'm here at the storm and the storm is
[1:07:34] so they're experiencing the storm but
[1:07:35] they're also just trying to get the
[1:07:36] message out, right? And so you can
[1:07:38] convey something about the storm but
[1:07:40] they're not really in the experience.
[1:07:41] They're in the experience of reporting
[1:07:42] it, right? But if they were to film
[1:07:44] themselves walking through it and
[1:07:46] getting blown around, right? And then
[1:07:48] [clears throat]
[1:07:48] later you you would think about how that
[1:07:51] would that would be transmitted like
[1:07:53] there there's like this way in which we
[1:07:55] fractionate ourselves
[1:07:56] >> through technology
[1:07:58] >> which raises a question. I was thinking
[1:07:59] this before you opted to write the book
[1:08:02] by hand as opposed to using audio
[1:08:05] recordings. Why was that? Because you
[1:08:07] could have easily just sat with hands
[1:08:09] still and and done that.
[1:08:10] >> So in the end I filled over a hundred
[1:08:13] notebooks with my handwritten things.
[1:08:16] Literally you I can show you in my
[1:08:17] garage. But at the very end when I
[1:08:20] thought things were good enough, I would
[1:08:22] use whisper transcription. Okay. And
[1:08:25] then I would print it out and hand and
[1:08:28] edit with hand again. And then finally
[1:08:31] dictate it again one final time and edit
[1:08:34] it with one hand. Okay. So the slowness
[1:08:37] was was intense. But
[1:08:41] you know this as as as a neuroscientist,
[1:08:44] the relationship between the brain and
[1:08:46] the hand is a very very powerful one. It
[1:08:48] has very ancient roots. So many of the
[1:08:51] neural pathways involve the hand and the
[1:08:54] brain because that's where our
[1:08:56] intelligence involved picking up things
[1:08:58] and manipulating them and creating
[1:09:00] tools. The relationship between the
[1:09:02] brain and the hand is very very
[1:09:04] powerful.
[1:09:05] So when you handwrite, you're using the
[1:09:09] brain differently than when you type and
[1:09:11] look at a screen. It's a different flow
[1:09:13] of time. Okay? And then if you just
[1:09:16] dictate into the computer, it's even
[1:09:19] kind of even more alienating in a way
[1:09:21] because your hands aren't involved at
[1:09:23] all. At least in typing, you are. And so
[1:09:26] to me, I tried to immediately dictate
[1:09:29] it. Something was lost. I didn't feel
[1:09:31] like I was expressing something deep
[1:09:34] because my hand literally has to be
[1:09:36] involved in the creation of it. And I
[1:09:39] would find first of all the
[1:09:41] transcription things, you know, AI is so
[1:09:44] sophisticated, but the transcription
[1:09:45] things are actually quite primitive.
[1:09:47] They don't do punctuation.
[1:09:50] They don't exactly hear what you're
[1:09:51] saying. So, you have to you'll have to
[1:09:53] go back over a lot of it. It can be very
[1:09:55] frustrating. It's not like I'm creating
[1:09:57] oral literature. I'm not Homer. I'm not
[1:09:59] remembering not singing about a ballad
[1:10:02] of people that I've memorized. And so
[1:10:04] it's like this immediate thing that's
[1:10:07] coming out of you. Whereas writing by
[1:10:09] hand, you have to think. You have to sit
[1:10:11] there and ponder each movement of your
[1:10:14] hand and the ink. I also got heavily
[1:10:17] into ink, I have to say. So it's I'm a
[1:10:19] fetishist because handwriting is a very
[1:10:23] sensual experience where this isn't. And
[1:10:25] so I I got all these fountain pens and I
[1:10:28] buy all these different colored inks
[1:10:30] from this company in Italy. And the
[1:10:33] different the inks had this beautiful
[1:10:35] kind of flow to it and a feel to it to
[1:10:37] actually see ink on a page. So
[1:10:40] handwriting is a kind of a sensual
[1:10:42] experience if you go through it, right?
[1:10:44] Like calligraphy can be a very sensual
[1:10:46] experience.
[1:10:47] So people would say, "Why don't you just
[1:10:49] dictate your book, Robert? It's so
[1:10:51] easy." But I couldn't find I couldn't.
[1:10:52] It wasn't me. it wasn't like natural to
[1:10:55] me and so I had to go recourse to the
[1:10:57] handwriting aspect.
[1:11:00] >> I have a a question and a and a perhaps
[1:11:03] interesting tidbit to share about the
[1:11:05] hands and handwriting. What color ink
[1:11:08] are you? A black a blue black or a blue?
[1:11:10] >> I had different colors. So there's this
[1:11:13] company called Viscanti Italian company.
[1:11:16] They make wonderful fountain pens
[1:11:19] >> and they have this one hound fountain
[1:11:21] called Homo sapiens which is my favorite
[1:11:24] and they have these beautiful bottles of
[1:11:26] ink and I have sepia which I love is a
[1:11:29] beautiful color sepia. It's this weird
[1:11:31] brown yellow brown for an ink. It's
[1:11:34] magnificent. I have black. I have
[1:11:37] turquoise
[1:11:39] and I have red and then I also have
[1:11:41] green but I don't use the green very
[1:11:43] much. So I would mix up the colors
[1:11:45] because that would each day it said look
[1:11:47] what color do I feel like today? Oh I
[1:11:49] feel like writing in red you know but
[1:11:51] then I'd always end up kind of going
[1:11:53] back to sepia because I love that sepia
[1:11:55] color.
[1:11:56] >> This is uh clearly being communicated
[1:11:58] through the universe to us. Um you know
[1:12:01] the origins of sepia is from the ink of
[1:12:04] the cuttlefish.
[1:12:05] >> So we worked on or had as I prefer to
[1:12:08] say it sepia bendensis which is the
[1:12:10] dwarf cuttlefish. So the Latin name of
[1:12:13] the cuttlefish is actually sepia and
[1:12:15] their ink was the original source.
[1:12:18] >> Is the ink that color that comes out of
[1:12:20] them? It is.
[1:12:20] >> I mean depending on the the water
[1:12:22] environment they're in and the lighting
[1:12:24] under
[1:12:26] the origin the hand. Um you may or may
[1:12:30] not know. I learned this from my good
[1:12:31] friend Eddie Chang that we were
[1:12:32] discussing earlier, the chair of
[1:12:33] neurosurgery at UCSF, one of the leading
[1:12:35] expert neuroscientists on speech and
[1:12:36] language and epilepsy and a a true
[1:12:39] savant of all things. uh neuro and more.
[1:12:44] He told me that the hand representation
[1:12:46] in the brain isn't just close to but is
[1:12:50] nested inside the language areas.
[1:12:52] >> Ah
[1:12:52] >> the Italians
[1:12:54] >> tell us this right away. They move their
[1:12:56] hands as they speak. And in recently
[1:12:58] when recording my audio book, it's the
[1:13:00] first book I've ever written and then
[1:13:01] recording the audio book. I found that
[1:13:03] if I didn't allow myself to move my
[1:13:05] hands
[1:13:05] >> and justiculate with my hands, it was
[1:13:08] harder to inunciate properly.
[1:13:10] Interesting. So he said, "Oh, of course,
[1:13:11] because there's all these feedback
[1:13:13] loops."
[1:13:14] >> Um, and
[1:13:16] you start to look at this across
[1:13:18] cultures and you start to see that when
[1:13:20] or even individuals and you see that
[1:13:22] when people are are trying to formulate
[1:13:24] their sentences very carefully and
[1:13:26] punctuate them in their mind as they
[1:13:27] speak them, their hands tend to go still
[1:13:30] and then when they hit a sort of verbal
[1:13:32] flow, their hands spontaneously start to
[1:13:34] move.
[1:13:35] >> So there's a direct linkage there.
[1:13:37] There's no question. Also our language
[1:13:39] reflects that I grasp an idea. There's
[1:13:42] people have analyzed the number of words
[1:13:44] for thinking and knowledge that have to
[1:13:46] do with the actual grasping and the use
[1:13:48] of the hand.
[1:13:49] >> Amazing.
[1:13:50] >> So I often think about this. Our
[1:13:52] particular consciousness
[1:13:55] has a pattern to it that is very much
[1:13:58] constricted by language and grammar.
[1:14:01] Right? So we have a subject and an
[1:14:04] object, right? And most languages have
[1:14:07] that although some don't. The subject
[1:14:09] and the object which makes us think of
[1:14:12] cause and effect right we think of past,
[1:14:15] present and future.
[1:14:17] We have those tenses. So we always are
[1:14:19] thinking in terms of sequences. So I
[1:14:22] have the the thought experiment in my
[1:14:24] head of an alien form of life and an
[1:14:28] alien form of intelligence and
[1:14:29] consciousness
[1:14:30] that had a different structure of
[1:14:33] grammar that wasn't based. so much on
[1:14:36] the hand and these these kind of
[1:14:38] abstract concepts, what would their
[1:14:41] language be like? It would be very
[1:14:42] different from our own. But it makes you
[1:14:44] realize that our language kind of
[1:14:47] sometimes can restrict what we think and
[1:14:49] we're always within those parameters.
[1:14:52] But the relationship of thinking and the
[1:14:56] hand and also vision because so many of
[1:14:59] uh our thoughts about knowledge have to
[1:15:01] do with seeing. Oh, I see your I I see
[1:15:03] what you mean kind of thing. You don't
[1:15:05] literally see, but we use visual uh
[1:15:08] metaphors all the time and hand
[1:15:10] metaphors. I'd like to take a quick
[1:15:13] break and acknowledge one of our
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[1:15:53] right into work or right into exercise.
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[1:16:32] >> I'd like to talk a little bit more about
[1:16:34] childhood. Okay? And um I know I've
[1:16:36] asked you this in a previous meeting,
[1:16:38] but long ago in when I read mastery, I
[1:16:42] was just, you know, like clubbed over
[1:16:43] the head uh in the best possible sense
[1:16:46] of the phrase with the
[1:16:50] the statement that you made um that some
[1:16:55] event early in life for each of us kind
[1:17:00] of portends what we should or ought to
[1:17:03] explore later in life like there's some
[1:17:06] unique event that places some unique
[1:17:09] capacity, curiosity,
[1:17:12] hunger in us to go do something that is
[1:17:14] uniquely us. No other person had that
[1:17:18] experience and the experiences that
[1:17:20] follow that would allow them to do that
[1:17:22] thing. What is your suggestion for
[1:17:24] people who want to think about what that
[1:17:26] seed event might have been if they don't
[1:17:28] know like like how do we know what that
[1:17:30] thing was for us if we're like 12 years
[1:17:33] or older? I was always clear for myself
[1:17:36] about what that was because I was
[1:17:38] obsessed from a very early age with
[1:17:40] words. I just thought words themselves
[1:17:43] are very strange and very weird that we
[1:17:45] have these words that mean things. And I
[1:17:48] remember I think I was in the third
[1:17:50] grade, my teacher put up the word
[1:17:54] carpenter and she said, "Now try and see
[1:17:57] how many words you can form out of those
[1:17:59] letters."
[1:18:00] And for some reason that just excited me
[1:18:03] so much that with these little
[1:18:06] individual letters you could create all
[1:18:09] these different words, right? I don't
[1:18:11] know why. I can't explain it. It's
[1:18:13] there's no logic behind it.
[1:18:15] But it seemed like letters and words
[1:18:18] were magical and that always attracted
[1:18:19] me. I always felt a connection to knew I
[1:18:23] had to be a writer because I had that
[1:18:25] that weird connection to words
[1:18:28] themselves. Not just what they meant but
[1:18:31] the sounds of them, right? Obsessed me.
[1:18:34] But after writing mastery, a lot of
[1:18:36] people would come to me because it's I
[1:18:38] talk [clears throat] about your life's
[1:18:39] task and I also have a chapter in the
[1:18:41] new book about this concept. Um, and
[1:18:44] they would say, "But Robert, I don't
[1:18:45] know what my life's task is. I'm in my
[1:18:48] 20s. you write about it. You write about
[1:18:50] Da Vinci, you write about all these
[1:18:51] other people and stuff. I have no idea.
[1:18:55] And I had to go across this barrier
[1:18:57] because I never had that experience. I
[1:18:59] always knew that it had to be writing.
[1:19:02] So I had to try and understand their
[1:19:04] perspective, which is in teaching.
[1:19:08] Good teachers know that they know more
[1:19:11] than their students, but they have to
[1:19:12] put their minds in the minds of the
[1:19:14] students who don't know enough. So you
[1:19:16] have to kind of lower yourself into
[1:19:17] their way of not lower but inside their
[1:19:21] less knowledgeable experience. So I had
[1:19:24] to go like why wouldn't they know it?
[1:19:28] Why would they have because if you think
[1:19:30] about your early childhood, you had
[1:19:33] those moments, right? You knew that you
[1:19:36] would love this. You loved kicking a
[1:19:38] ball. I had I loved sports, right? You
[1:19:41] knew that I loved music and sounds. I
[1:19:44] talk a lot about how Howard Gardner and
[1:19:46] his five frames of intelligence. You had
[1:19:49] one of them.
[1:19:51] But thinking deeply about their
[1:19:53] experience, I came to realize that first
[1:19:55] of all, they've lost a deep connection
[1:19:58] to those childhood experience, to those
[1:20:00] moments they forgotten about them. Why
[1:20:03] have they forgotten about them? Maybe
[1:20:05] they weren't as intense as mine was. But
[1:20:08] also what happened was
[1:20:10] all these other voices intervened,
[1:20:13] right? Their parents told them what they
[1:20:15] should love, what they shouldn't love.
[1:20:17] They had to learn math and they didn't
[1:20:18] want to learn math. The teachers told
[1:20:20] them what they were good at. They get
[1:20:22] funneled through this system which kind
[1:20:24] of constrains your brain into a certain
[1:20:27] career path. This is what you have to
[1:20:29] learn, right? And they hear a thousand
[1:20:32] different voices in their head and they
[1:20:34] have no connection to what they really
[1:20:36] love. to what Abraham Maslo calls your
[1:20:39] impulse voices. Voices inside of you
[1:20:41] that you're that are natural, that are
[1:20:43] physiological inside of you. They don't
[1:20:46] hear it anymore. And so I had to kind of
[1:20:49] realize that we have to cut out all of
[1:20:51] those voices. And I would go through
[1:20:53] this process and I compared it to like
[1:20:56] archaeology. We were digging and digging
[1:20:58] and digging into their childhood for
[1:21:00] little fossils of information. I would
[1:21:03] kind of go through a process of can you
[1:21:07] remember certain moments in your early
[1:21:09] what's what are your earliest childhood
[1:21:10] memories? What are memories of things
[1:21:13] that were very exciting to you? We
[1:21:15] literally had to go back into their
[1:21:16] childhood to uncover those moments where
[1:21:19] something sparked and they were excited
[1:21:22] not because their parents told them but
[1:21:25] because it was them. And for me, it's a
[1:21:27] hard concept to understand because I
[1:21:29] always had that. But people lose touch
[1:21:31] with what they act, what their own
[1:21:33] bodies, what their own impulses, their
[1:21:36] own desires are telling them. And so we
[1:21:38] would cut through all of the other
[1:21:40] noise.
[1:21:41] I would also go through this process of
[1:21:45] you're in your 20s. What is it that you
[1:21:48] hate? What repels you? What repulses
[1:21:51] you? For me,
[1:21:55] I hated working for other people. I'll
[1:21:57] just lay it out straight. I hated the
[1:21:59] egos. I hated the political games. I had
[1:22:02] people wasn't about results. It was
[1:22:04] about currying up to the boss and how
[1:22:07] good you were with the charming stuff. I
[1:22:09] hated it. I never lasted more than 11
[1:22:12] months at any single job in my entire
[1:22:14] life. So, knowing that I could not work
[1:22:17] for other people, the only thing I could
[1:22:20] do was write books. It's the only
[1:22:22] profession for me where I had didn't
[1:22:24] have a boss essentially. I mean, you
[1:22:26] kind of have a boss, but anyway, what is
[1:22:29] it that you hate? What are the things
[1:22:31] that you can't do that when you do they
[1:22:33] just feel wrong? And a lot of it is
[1:22:37] when you were frustrated.
[1:22:40] That's the that's a key moment in your
[1:22:42] life. What is frustrating to you? Listen
[1:22:45] to that voice because it's it's it's
[1:22:48] part of that that life's task that that
[1:22:51] inner voice that's talking to you saying
[1:22:53] this isn't you. This doesn't fit you.
[1:22:55] Listen to it and don't just see
[1:22:58] frustration. See something positive.
[1:23:00] It's telling you something about what
[1:23:02] you're about how you've taken a wrong
[1:23:04] path in life. It's not easy. And I
[1:23:08] sometimes spend days with these people
[1:23:10] and and weeks trying to help them. But
[1:23:12] I've had had some success.
[1:23:15] But it takes time. You know, you have to
[1:23:18] be willing to commit to the time and you
[1:23:20] have to journal and you have to write
[1:23:22] about yourself and you have to go deep
[1:23:23] into your memories. You have to think
[1:23:25] about your childhood and you have to go
[1:23:26] back into those moments that had nothing
[1:23:29] to do with what other people were
[1:23:30] telling you.
[1:23:32] >> I think um I've heard two different
[1:23:34] notions about how great ideas and
[1:23:36] insights come to us. Uh one is in the
[1:23:38] doing. you know, we're drilling,
[1:23:40] drilling, lathing, lathing away at ideas
[1:23:43] or a physical thing. And
[1:23:44] >> and the other is that they come to us
[1:23:46] spontaneously
[1:23:48] >> away from the attempt to like get to an
[1:23:50] answer you like in the shower
[1:23:52] >> or while running or doing something. And
[1:23:54] I I wonder for you uh has that process
[1:23:58] of insight and epiphany changed as when
[1:24:02] comparing before as to um after your
[1:24:04] stroke? I mean, you're still fairly
[1:24:06] mobile. You're clearly very articulate,
[1:24:08] but I wonder are your are your ideas
[1:24:10] coming in at a different rate or in
[1:24:12] different places because of the changes
[1:24:15] in your physical life?
[1:24:17] >> I'll tell you what happened and it's
[1:24:19] very interesting. I noticed after my
[1:24:22] stroke that I was more emotional.
[1:24:25] I had less control over my emotions. I
[1:24:27] would suddenly start crying and I don't
[1:24:29] really know why I was crying. I would
[1:24:31] suddenly feel mo kind of a wave of
[1:24:34] ecstasy. Why is it happening to me? And
[1:24:36] then I did a little bit of research and
[1:24:38] you would know more about this, but
[1:24:41] stroke the right side of the brain
[1:24:42] affecting the right side of the brain
[1:24:44] often has that effect on stroke victims.
[1:24:47] The left side is language and logic and
[1:24:49] and reasoning powers. The right side and
[1:24:53] these there's a lot of cliches involved
[1:24:55] in the left right things and I
[1:24:56] understand that but the right is is a
[1:24:59] more kind of holistic and more kind of
[1:25:01] emotional part of the brain. And so I
[1:25:05] was feeling on a deeper level. I was
[1:25:08] also feeling
[1:25:10] like so much more empathy for people,
[1:25:14] right? Like I would see other people who
[1:25:17] were handicapped who were still in a
[1:25:18] wheelchair and I would like almost want
[1:25:20] to cry and I would almost like damn it,
[1:25:22] I understand your weakness. I understand
[1:25:24] the [snorts] feeling of helplessness.
[1:25:27] So my brain shifted into something more
[1:25:30] emotional. I saw a quote from the poet
[1:25:33] John Keats, one of my favorite poets,
[1:25:35] and it said, "Oh, to have a life of
[1:25:37] sensations instead of thoughts." And so
[1:25:42] you can think emotionally, you can think
[1:25:44] through sensations, you can empathize,
[1:25:46] you can feel your way into things. And
[1:25:49] it's a different form of thinking.
[1:25:52] And it made me realize how much your
[1:25:55] brain and the structure of it alters how
[1:25:58] you think and how you relate to the
[1:26:00] world. So something I had no control
[1:26:02] over, a stroke, altered me in this weird
[1:26:06] way. It made me more emotional. So it
[1:26:08] makes you realize how the brain so much
[1:26:11] controls who you are and how you
[1:26:13] experience life. And so I had this much
[1:26:16] more kind of intuitive feel for the
[1:26:18] subject. The sublime was no longer an
[1:26:21] intellectual thing like it would have
[1:26:23] been 20 years ago. It was a feeling
[1:26:25] inside of me. And when I wrote a a
[1:26:28] story, it would resonate inside of me
[1:26:30] and I knew that it was right. And if it
[1:26:32] felt too intellectual, I said, "This
[1:26:34] isn't working for me." So would you say
[1:26:37] your stroke sort of freed you up to some
[1:26:40] extent to allow certain things to come
[1:26:42] out that like, you know, maybe before
[1:26:45] you would have self-edited?
[1:26:47] >> I think so. And I think um
[1:26:52] I don't know. Uh it's going to sound woo
[1:26:55] woo. It's going to sound like I've I've
[1:26:57] gone off the deep edge, but it felt like
[1:27:00] um the stroke happened for a purpose,
[1:27:03] >> right?
[1:27:05] And to me, the way I look at it is if I
[1:27:09] see it as a curse, I become a bitter
[1:27:12] person and I just shrivel up. But if I
[1:27:15] see it as a blessing, it's a much
[1:27:17] different experience. And the blessing
[1:27:20] was that I had to find the sublime in
[1:27:23] the smallest details.
[1:27:26] readers aren't going to be able to trek
[1:27:28] through the Gobi Desert. They're not
[1:27:30] going to be able, a lot of them swim
[1:27:31] with dolphins. They can't have these
[1:27:33] adventures. But everyone lives in a
[1:27:36] house in a room. We all feel kind of
[1:27:38] constricted. I could now make bring the
[1:27:41] sublime to the level of your daily
[1:27:43] experience because I compared myself the
[1:27:47] image that came to me when I sat in my
[1:27:49] little office trying to write the book
[1:27:51] was that I was a bird in a cage, right?
[1:27:54] I used to be flying around and having
[1:27:56] all this fun and now I was in a cage and
[1:27:59] I had to accommodate myself to a cage
[1:28:01] and I had to kind of find a way to sing
[1:28:03] inside my cage. And so a lot of people
[1:28:06] are like that. They don't have access.
[1:28:10] They don't live in mansions. They don't
[1:28:11] have magnificent gardens. They live in
[1:28:14] small apartments.
[1:28:16] And I don't want to give this feeling
[1:28:18] like the sublime is some elite
[1:28:20] experience that that only rich people
[1:28:23] can have. The point of the book is that
[1:28:26] the need for a transcendent experiences
[1:28:29] which what the sublime is about in many
[1:28:31] ways is as important a need to humans as
[1:28:34] clothing as shelter as companionship as
[1:28:37] anything else. It's deeply deeply
[1:28:39] embedded in our nature. Right? So I
[1:28:42] wanted to feel like everybody can have
[1:28:44] access to it. So, if a stroke victim
[1:28:47] whose life is so limited can find their
[1:28:50] way to the sublime, then that means that
[1:28:52] anybody can find their way. And that's
[1:28:53] how I wanted to write the book.
[1:28:55] >> What I'm about to ask is somewhat of a
[1:28:57] merge between some of your prior books,
[1:28:59] >> Sure.
[1:29:00] >> about power, about personalities,
[1:29:03] about performers,
[1:29:05] >> and
[1:29:06] >> the newest book coming out soon about
[1:29:08] the sublime.
[1:29:10] >> And
[1:29:12] in order to try and make this succinct,
[1:29:13] I'll just do this in bullet points.
[1:29:15] Yeah, we've had a lot of discussions on
[1:29:17] this podcast about mitochondria,
[1:29:19] which are the powerhouse of the cell and
[1:29:22] energy and so forth. And one guest in
[1:29:24] particular, Martin Bard, who's an expert
[1:29:26] in mitochondria, talked about directing
[1:29:28] mitochondrial energy toward particular
[1:29:31] endeavors. Focus is what creates our
[1:29:34] lives and us. Yeah. People's experience
[1:29:36] of us and our experiences.
[1:29:40] >> There are these people throughout
[1:29:41] history who seem to have
[1:29:45] so much energy and to ex focus that
[1:29:48] energy so intensely
[1:29:50] and do incredible things in art and you
[1:29:55] know oration you know like we might call
[1:29:57] this like charisma.
[1:29:58] >> Yeah.
[1:29:59] >> And they often died early.
[1:30:01] >> Yeah.
[1:30:01] >> And I' I've been really intrigued by
[1:30:03] this. like maybe they their energy was
[1:30:05] packed in space and time and and focus
[1:30:08] into such a like a dense beam that they
[1:30:13] couldn't go on a long time, right? Uh
[1:30:15] and I don't this is really woo what I'm
[1:30:17] about to ask but in researching this and
[1:30:20] writing uh the law of the sublime
[1:30:24] >> did you ever think about like what was
[1:30:26] the experience of some of the people
[1:30:28] that you had written about earlier
[1:30:30] >> like the intense life of somebody like
[1:30:33] 50 Cent the intense life of some of the
[1:30:35] people you wrote about in um the laws of
[1:30:37] seduction who are these extreme examples
[1:30:39] of life energy
[1:30:42] >> funneled through a particular
[1:30:43] personality and style.
[1:30:45] And many of whom I mean 50 is still
[1:30:47] around but many of whom are
[1:30:50] >> they die early.
[1:30:52] >> Yeah.
[1:30:52] >> Did that ever come to you as as an idea
[1:30:54] like this isn't the slowpaced life.
[1:30:57] These are people that
[1:30:59] >> I see
[1:30:59] >> burn hot make huge contributions
[1:31:03] and flame goes out.
[1:31:05] >> The sublime is often like an experience
[1:31:08] of intensity.
[1:31:10] >> Right? So concentrated in a particular
[1:31:13] moment is a very intense experience like
[1:31:15] a candle that's kind of burning. 50
[1:31:18] himself, he had a near-death experience
[1:31:21] and in the last chapter of the book I do
[1:31:23] I talked with I did with him I call it
[1:31:26] the sublime and his sort of I feel like
[1:31:30] his near-death experiences completely
[1:31:32] altered him and although we see this
[1:31:35] figure of this entrepreneur
[1:31:37] and this kind of thug and this guy with
[1:31:40] beefs and he's always putting people
[1:31:41] down that'd be the last thing you'd
[1:31:43] think of as sublime but I know 50 I was
[1:31:47] with him. I spent six months by his
[1:31:49] side. I studied him deeply and his
[1:31:53] closeness to death altered him and is he
[1:31:56] actually has great access to that kind
[1:31:59] of energy that came from his near-death
[1:32:01] experience.
[1:32:02] Now, other people whose sense of power
[1:32:06] is only about the social, I don't really
[1:32:10] feel like a sense of the sublime. But if
[1:32:14] you're like a great writer or you're a
[1:32:16] scientist like Albert Einstein, he
[1:32:17] didn't die young. I don't think he did.
[1:32:19] >> No. And biologists on average tend to
[1:32:22] have good long careers. Mathematicians
[1:32:24] have briefer careers.
[1:32:26] >> Well, the mathematicians are interesting
[1:32:28] because it's a known fact that the
[1:32:30] greatest math discoveries are in your
[1:32:32] 20s and early 30s and then it just kind
[1:32:35] of dries up.
[1:32:35] >> Yeah. I think the Fields Medal can only
[1:32:37] be given to people I think it's 40 years
[1:32:39] and younger.
[1:32:40] >> Yeah. Biology is a more cumulative type
[1:32:43] career. Yeah. You have long careers that
[1:32:45] that are successful along the way and
[1:32:47] and accumulate a rich amount of
[1:32:49] knowledge. Yeah. Math is is uh it's a
[1:32:52] quick burn. I
[1:32:53] >> I wonder why. It's very weird like that.
[1:32:55] >> I don't know. I mean, I'm intrigued by
[1:32:57] the fact that um child prodigies
[1:32:59] >> Yeah.
[1:33:00] >> their peers eventually catch up to them.
[1:33:02] >> Uhhuh.
[1:33:02] >> People catch up. Like with mastery,
[1:33:04] people who go deep, deep into a field
[1:33:06] and then burn themselves out. The
[1:33:08] sublimity is in the sense of flow that
[1:33:11] they have. So the sublime, as I say, is
[1:33:15] kind of a transcendent experience.
[1:33:16] You're getting outside of your ego.
[1:33:18] You're getting outside the narrowness of
[1:33:20] your own little limited world and you're
[1:33:22] experience something wider. Right? When
[1:33:26] you study chess deeply or or Einstein
[1:33:29] with the theory of relativity or or
[1:33:32] whatever the field is, painting or
[1:33:34] whatever, you have these moments of
[1:33:36] intense flow where you and the thing
[1:33:38] that you're creating are one. You're
[1:33:41] outside of yourself. It's almost like an
[1:33:42] outer body experience, right? And I talk
[1:33:45] in the book about the feeling of
[1:33:47] inspiration,
[1:33:49] which is something that goes back
[1:33:50] thousands of years and people report it
[1:33:52] and I've experienced it myself where
[1:33:55] ideas seem to be coming to you from the
[1:33:56] outside. You can't explain why this
[1:33:59] epiphany happened. There's no logic,
[1:34:01] there's no order to it. It's almost as
[1:34:03] if somebody is breathing inside of you,
[1:34:06] which is the origin of the word inspired
[1:34:08] to breathe into something. Okay? So
[1:34:11] when you're so deeply immersed in a
[1:34:14] subject,
[1:34:15] you're kind of having this kind of
[1:34:17] moment of flow and this kind of
[1:34:18] transcendent experience and ideas are
[1:34:20] coming to you from the outside and you
[1:34:23] don't even know why or how and it is
[1:34:25] utterly sublime. So that is a connection
[1:34:29] between some of my earlier work and the
[1:34:31] later work. But a lot of these kind of
[1:34:34] master manipulators like an autobismark
[1:34:38] or like some of the chazari bora
[1:34:42] I can't really find anything sublime in
[1:34:44] their experience. I try to write about
[1:34:47] the dark side of human nature in the
[1:34:50] sublime book and how we can see
[1:34:53] something sublime in it but kind of the
[1:34:56] dark side of the sublime. There's
[1:34:58] something sublimely evil in the world,
[1:35:01] right? But that's that's really kind of
[1:35:04] another story. But the feeling when
[1:35:07] you're playing the piano and you feel
[1:35:10] like you and the keyboard are one or
[1:35:12] you're playing chess and you and the
[1:35:14] chessboard are one is a is a totally
[1:35:17] sublime moment. Totally sublime
[1:35:19] experience. So mastery of all my books
[1:35:22] is the one that's closest to the
[1:35:23] sublime. I'd like to take a quick break
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[1:37:02] Several times you've said that accessing
[1:37:04] the sublime is about relating as a human
[1:37:08] to things that are not human.
[1:37:10] >> Yeah. Is there any way to access the
[1:37:12] sublime through human human interaction?
[1:37:15] >> Yes, most definitely. So I have a
[1:37:16] chapter called the love sublime and it's
[1:37:20] not the art of seduction and people are
[1:37:21] going Robert have you changed and I go
[1:37:22] well no seduction is a book in itself
[1:37:25] but love is something different and so I
[1:37:29] talk about the sense of falling so
[1:37:32] deeply in love with another human being
[1:37:36] that you lose a sense of your own ego.
[1:37:38] And the chapter is called escape the
[1:37:40] prison of the ego, the love sublime.
[1:37:44] And the idea is the human being is two
[1:37:47] sides to us. We're physical. We have an
[1:37:50] animal side, but we have something else.
[1:37:52] And I would I would hate to use the
[1:37:54] word, but I would say it's spiritual,
[1:37:55] right? And so if the only interest in in
[1:37:59] the other person is about sex,
[1:38:02] there's some level of satisfaction to
[1:38:04] it, but there's also an emptiness that
[1:38:06] goes with it, right? But if it's just
[1:38:08] about religion and about, you know,
[1:38:11] going to church or whatever, there's
[1:38:13] nothing physical in it and it doesn't
[1:38:15] feel so deeply human. It's just the
[1:38:17] spiritual. But I'm a human being. I have
[1:38:19] a body. I have sexual desires. I have
[1:38:21] all these other things going on inside
[1:38:23] of me that religion has nothing to do
[1:38:25] with. Love is an area where you can
[1:38:28] combine the physical and the spiritual
[1:38:31] into something very, very, very
[1:38:33] profound. And I say it's kind of the
[1:38:36] ultimate human experience that we can
[1:38:38] have because your physical attraction to
[1:38:42] someone turns into something spiritual.
[1:38:45] People are objects that we cannot see
[1:38:49] inside of them. But in love that object
[1:38:52] becomes a subject. They become something
[1:38:54] that's inside of them. You can feel
[1:38:55] their experience. They become a part of
[1:38:57] you. Now you people were wondering well
[1:39:00] that how often does that ever happen?
[1:39:01] You know that doesn't sound like my
[1:39:03] experience. What I try to explain is the
[1:39:06] metaphor we use is falling in love. And
[1:39:08] it's very eloquent. So it's literally a
[1:39:11] sense of falling.
[1:39:13] And falling has an element of fear,
[1:39:16] right? That's what you have to
[1:39:17] understand. Love isn't about comfort and
[1:39:20] security and and Russell Stover
[1:39:22] chocolates and and handing out red roses
[1:39:25] and Valentine's. There's something dark
[1:39:27] and terrifying about it because you're
[1:39:29] falling. You're letting go of your
[1:39:32] defenses and you're being vulnerable
[1:39:34] like an animal that's exposing its
[1:39:36] belly. And that's a frightening
[1:39:37] experience. And what happens to people
[1:39:40] is as you start falling, you stop and
[1:39:42] you go, I don't completely trust this
[1:39:45] person. I'm becoming vulnerable. And if
[1:39:48] I become vulnerable, this isn't
[1:39:50] conscious, it's unconsciously, they can
[1:39:52] hurt me. They could abandon me. And the
[1:39:55] feeling of abandonment is like perhaps
[1:39:57] the most primal horrible emotion for a
[1:39:59] human to have. It goes back to our early
[1:40:02] early childhood experiences, right? And
[1:40:04] so we stop falling and we start going,
[1:40:07] I'm not so sure about that. Maybe they
[1:40:09] don't love me as much or maybe I can't
[1:40:11] trust them. And as you go through that
[1:40:13] process, the other person senses it in a
[1:40:16] very primal way as well and they stop
[1:40:18] falling because they can feel that
[1:40:20] you're not following along with them. If
[1:40:23] you fell completely and you lost your
[1:40:24] defenses, the other person would be
[1:40:26] invited to fall along with you. And so
[1:40:30] the reason you've never experienced in
[1:40:32] your life is you don't want to be
[1:40:34] vulnerable. And that's very natural in
[1:40:37] the modern world because our life is
[1:40:39] harsh and there's so many intrusive
[1:40:42] things going on. You want to defend
[1:40:43] yourself. I'm trying to tell young
[1:40:46] people in particular that you live in a
[1:40:48] culture that does not want you to be in
[1:40:51] love with someone.
[1:40:53] >> They demean love. They demean the aspect
[1:40:55] of it. They think of it sentimental and
[1:40:57] old-fashioned. The concept of love that
[1:40:59] I'm bringing out right now. And I want
[1:41:01] to tell you that the act of loving a
[1:41:04] person and letting go of all your
[1:41:06] defenses is a form of rebellion against
[1:41:08] the ugliness in this world. You're
[1:41:10] you're doing something different. You're
[1:41:13] rebelling against all the narcissism and
[1:41:15] all the defensiveness and all the closed
[1:41:18] off elements in our culture and you're
[1:41:20] saying you to that culture. I'm
[1:41:22] going to fall in love with a single
[1:41:23] individual and it's going to be an
[1:41:26] incredible transcendent sublime
[1:41:28] experience. I want to bring that back
[1:41:30] into the culture because
[1:41:34] in the 13th century we had this uh this
[1:41:38] new thing called courtly love, right?
[1:41:41] And it's where our whole notions of
[1:41:43] western love came from. Right? Trouidor
[1:41:46] is writing about it. And the sense of
[1:41:48] love was a physical and a spiritual
[1:41:51] experience. And it was kind of
[1:41:53] sacrilegious because only Christ should
[1:41:55] be a spiritual experience. So there was
[1:41:57] something very kind of rebellious about
[1:41:59] this idea that loving a man or a woman
[1:42:02] could actually be a spiritual
[1:42:04] experience.
[1:42:06] I'm hoping in that chapter to bring back
[1:42:08] that value particularly among young
[1:42:09] people because they're so afraid of
[1:42:12] being vulnerable. They're so afraid of
[1:42:15] being hurt. And being heard is okay.
[1:42:18] It's a very important human emotion to
[1:42:20] go through. Rejection and feeling hurt
[1:42:22] is actually an experience that will grow
[1:42:25] you in a way. And never allowing that
[1:42:27] falling process to occur
[1:42:30] is I don't know you're going to miss
[1:42:31] something very deep in life. It does
[1:42:34] seem that people are in a very
[1:42:36] self-protective mode these days. Part of
[1:42:38] me wants to say it's because of the need
[1:42:41] for every experience including love to
[1:42:45] be reported on
[1:42:46] >> you go back to that but I think it's
[1:42:48] true.
[1:42:48] >> Yeah. You know like that people are
[1:42:50] going to have to post it and it's going
[1:42:51] to have to be shared. Actually, I found
[1:42:53] recently a a friend got married. Uh
[1:42:55] we're not real close, but um in a really
[1:42:58] stealth way, just like it, you know, and
[1:43:00] I wasn't close enough to them to be
[1:43:03] invited. And I was like, that's pretty
[1:43:06] awesome.
[1:43:07] >> They just like went and got married with
[1:43:09] the closest people.
[1:43:10] >> Yeah.
[1:43:10] >> Completely stealth.
[1:43:12] >> Yeah.
[1:43:12] >> This is a public facing person. Nobody
[1:43:14] knows it.
[1:43:15] >> Yeah.
[1:43:15] >> And the reason I think it's awesome is
[1:43:17] because it means it was just for them.
[1:43:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. and uh you know, and they're
[1:43:22] early in the relationship, but like
[1:43:24] that's that's pretty darn cool as
[1:43:27] opposed to the need to project it out to
[1:43:28] the world and tell everybody. And uh
[1:43:30] like that's
[1:43:31] >> I have this I call it the this demon.
[1:43:34] It's inside of you. It's a voice that's
[1:43:37] constantly telling you to mistrust the
[1:43:39] other person
[1:43:40] >> and to feel like something is wrong in
[1:43:43] the relationship. It's a demon inside of
[1:43:44] you that's speaking to you. And a lot of
[1:43:46] it is social. your friends will tell you
[1:43:49] will fill you with doubts about the
[1:43:51] other person. It's not cool to be so
[1:43:53] involved with another person. You're
[1:43:55] being egotistical. You're cutting
[1:43:57] yourself off.
[1:43:58] >> You're going to hear these voices. And
[1:44:00] that's what I meant about the culture is
[1:44:01] kind of against this whole thing. And so
[1:44:05] the social element is actually playing a
[1:44:07] very large part in the fact that you
[1:44:09] don't want to make a fool of yourself.
[1:44:12] for instance, you want people to think
[1:44:13] that you're cool, that you know, you you
[1:44:16] can sleep with many different women,
[1:44:18] that you're that you're not such a a
[1:44:20] soop, you know, you don't you're not
[1:44:22] gullible kind of thing. And so, it's a
[1:44:24] kind of a cynicism and a hardness that I
[1:44:27] I find very dangerous because
[1:44:31] the sublime is kind of letting go of
[1:44:33] things. And it's almost like softening
[1:44:35] yourself to the world and letting the
[1:44:37] world enter into you and kind of
[1:44:40] transport you. And that's what this kind
[1:44:43] of love sublime is inviting you into.
[1:44:46] Well, and the incel movement is the
[1:44:48] ultimate extreme of of this. Although
[1:44:50] now large part because of recent events,
[1:44:53] we're also seeing something kind of
[1:44:55] analogous to the incel movement on the
[1:44:58] female side.
[1:44:59] >> For sure.
[1:45:00] >> A lot a lot of
[1:45:01] >> they have a name for it. I can't
[1:45:02] remember what it is, but yeah.
[1:45:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. This uh I don't want to go
[1:45:06] down the socopolitical uh rabbit hole,
[1:45:09] but so there's a big divide right now
[1:45:11] that is really about lack of trust.
[1:45:14] >> Yeah.
[1:45:14] >> Love is been kind of relegated to the
[1:45:17] the uh idiots path.
[1:45:19] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[1:45:20] >> I don't believe that, but that's
[1:45:21] certainly what it seems like out there.
[1:45:24] just addressing the Andrew Tate kind of
[1:45:27] experience of the world and and sort of
[1:45:30] the alienation from the opposite sex and
[1:45:33] seeing them as kind of the enemy
[1:45:36] is is a very troubling thing. And what
[1:45:39] it is is it's like a fear of your own
[1:45:41] self because every man has a feminine
[1:45:46] side to him unavoidably. And why?
[1:45:50] Because our closest relationship as a
[1:45:52] baby was with our mother, a female,
[1:45:55] right? And we internalize her voice. We
[1:45:59] internalize her energy very deeply in a
[1:46:01] way you can't even remember. And our
[1:46:04] attractions to women are very much
[1:46:07] impressed upon us by our relationship to
[1:46:09] our mother. We were helpless for God's
[1:46:11] sake. And a woman was dominating our
[1:46:14] lives. We were depended on her. Right?
[1:46:17] So imprinted in you besides the fact
[1:46:19] that you as a man have a fair amount of
[1:46:22] estrogen in you as well. There is a
[1:46:25] female component to your psyche and
[1:46:27] women have the same thing. There's a
[1:46:29] masculine side to their psyche. And when
[1:46:31] you split it off and the and women are
[1:46:34] the enemy, men are the enemy. You're
[1:46:37] actually you are the enemy of yourself.
[1:46:40] You are actually denying something of
[1:46:41] deep about your own nature. I'm not
[1:46:44] trying to say anything against
[1:46:46] homosexual relationships, please don't
[1:46:48] get me wrong. But the idea of a man and
[1:46:51] a woman, you're bringing together your
[1:46:54] feminine side and their masculine side
[1:46:56] and you're merging it. And there's
[1:46:58] something kind of complete and and
[1:47:01] wondrous about it. It is this kind of
[1:47:04] you're opening yourself to your own
[1:47:06] nature. And when you're angry at the
[1:47:09] other sex, you're actually angry at
[1:47:11] yourself in a deep way. are afraid of
[1:47:13] the feminine that is deeply embedded
[1:47:15] inside of you.
[1:47:17] >> You've sort of touched on um
[1:47:20] spirituality and religion and notions of
[1:47:22] God. I think any conversation about the
[1:47:25] sublime
[1:47:27] at least this conversation I feel like
[1:47:30] would be incomplete if we didn't sort of
[1:47:32] uh address that. that for many people,
[1:47:35] not all, but for many people, a literal
[1:47:39] love relationship where they love God
[1:47:42] and they feel that God loves them is a
[1:47:45] is a profoundly important part of their
[1:47:47] life experience. It's not just
[1:47:49] consoling, but it it really gives them
[1:47:52] access to um levels of perception and
[1:47:55] experience that are irreplaceable by
[1:47:57] humans. So, I'll just say it directly. I
[1:47:59] don't get the sense that you're a
[1:48:00] religious person. And you can correct me
[1:48:01] if that's wrong, but everything you
[1:48:03] said, you know, accessing the sublime is
[1:48:05] about the relationship to the non-human.
[1:48:07] Even the pain and pleasure piece like
[1:48:09] the, you know, the depictions of Christ
[1:48:11] on the cross is a that, you know, is a
[1:48:13] painful image, but then there are these
[1:48:15] loving images of that's Christianity.
[1:48:17] But you get the idea. So where does the
[1:48:20] concept and for you the experience of
[1:48:23] spirituality,
[1:48:24] religion, and God match up with the
[1:48:28] sublime? Where does it not square with
[1:48:30] your own experience?
[1:48:32] >> I don't know. I it's it's it's it's a
[1:48:34] very complex issue. Um so there are
[1:48:38] different forms of religion. In
[1:48:40] Buddhism, there really isn't a concept
[1:48:43] of a higher being. It's that you
[1:48:45] yourself are are Buddha. Buddha is mind
[1:48:48] and mind is Buddhist. So it's inside of
[1:48:50] you kind of thing. And there's some
[1:48:52] elements of Christianity that way. But
[1:48:56] when I look at the earliest religions,
[1:48:59] indigenous religions and spirituality in
[1:49:02] the pagan world, because I have a
[1:49:03] chapter on pagan religion in in the
[1:49:06] book,
[1:49:07] I say that this need to feel transcended
[1:49:11] to feel connected to something higher
[1:49:14] than the individual life is deeply
[1:49:18] deeply sublime. It's a deep human need.
[1:49:20] Okay? And so why do we have this need
[1:49:25] for belief in something higher than
[1:49:28] ourselves? It's because we're aware of
[1:49:30] our death. We're aware of our mortality
[1:49:33] unlike any other animal that we know of.
[1:49:36] Animals intuit it the moment that
[1:49:37] they're going to die, but they don't
[1:49:39] think about it. We have the ability to
[1:49:42] think about our death, and it cripples
[1:49:43] us. If I'm going to die, why write a
[1:49:47] book? Why bo why spend all these years
[1:49:50] doing things? it's going to cancel
[1:49:51] everything out. There's no meaning or
[1:49:53] purpose to my life.
[1:49:55] So, our awareness of death makes us go
[1:49:58] search of something higher, of something
[1:50:00] a deeper and deeper need inside of us.
[1:50:03] And religion
[1:50:05] for centuries played a huge huge role in
[1:50:09] satisfying that need. And it was a very
[1:50:11] important need and it kept to some
[1:50:14] degree a level of sanity among humans.
[1:50:18] And then in the 18th century
[1:50:21] it was that we can pretty much pinpoint
[1:50:23] it is when religion really started to
[1:50:25] fade in western experience at least
[1:50:28] right with the enlightenment and and
[1:50:31] certain philosophers and the birth of
[1:50:33] science and then the industrial
[1:50:35] revolution and the sense of God faded
[1:50:38] from our experience. People are still
[1:50:40] religious today. But this sense of it
[1:50:42] being a living presence that was with
[1:50:45] you every if you study western
[1:50:47] civilization in the 14th century, God
[1:50:49] was a part of everything that you
[1:50:51] thought and did. Everything you saw,
[1:50:53] every food that you ate, every element
[1:50:55] of life was embedded in the sacred.
[1:50:57] Right? We humans lost that. And then in
[1:51:01] the 19th century, the industrial
[1:51:04] revolution happened. science. The world
[1:51:06] is changing and people started to rebel
[1:51:10] against that. They were a frightened of
[1:51:11] it and there was like the romantic
[1:51:14] movement and that is when the word
[1:51:16] sublime came into our language and
[1:51:18] became very popular. The romantic poets
[1:51:20] popular and philosophers popularized the
[1:51:23] world sublime. So my point is is that
[1:51:26] we've reached this point where I believe
[1:51:30] although there are a lot of religious
[1:51:31] people the really deep sense of
[1:51:34] spirituality the really deep sense of
[1:51:36] something larger than you that you lives
[1:51:39] inside of you that you are a part of and
[1:51:41] that is guiding your life is lost and
[1:51:44] with it a very very important part of
[1:51:47] our life is lost. Religion was an anchor
[1:51:50] in our lives and now it's gone. Now, I'm
[1:51:53] not saying that I'm a believer. I'm just
[1:51:56] saying I'm just noting this phenomenon.
[1:51:58] And I feel like the loss of religion,
[1:52:01] the loss of a sense of something
[1:52:03] transcended is what is partially making
[1:52:06] us insane right now.
[1:52:09] I look at the world and I feel like it's
[1:52:10] a mad house. People are just going
[1:52:13] berserk. They're so disconnected from
[1:52:16] their bodies, from their lives, from
[1:52:18] from everything, from their environment.
[1:52:20] And so the loss of God, the death of
[1:52:24] God, the death of religion was a very
[1:52:27] very painful moment in our history and
[1:52:29] in our psyche.
[1:52:32] And in some ways getting back to a kind
[1:52:36] of a transcendent experience is is in
[1:52:38] some ways can can solve this can help us
[1:52:41] can get us back to something very a very
[1:52:43] elemental need in us. And in an odd way,
[1:52:48] I find that the discoveries of science
[1:52:51] have a very deep kind of spiritual
[1:52:54] component that we're learning about the
[1:52:56] human brain is insane. What the, you
[1:53:00] know, I I'm not saying it was a creator
[1:53:02] about it, but there's something
[1:53:04] absolutely transcendent about studying
[1:53:07] the human brain. Learning about the
[1:53:09] cosmos, learning about the big bang
[1:53:12] is to me a it's like a spiritual
[1:53:14] experience. And so we can recover some
[1:53:17] of that in the modern world. We don't
[1:53:20] necessarily have to go back to organized
[1:53:22] religion, but a sense of feeling like we
[1:53:25] are part of something much larger than
[1:53:27] our individual lives is an actual
[1:53:29] critical component to our experience.
[1:53:32] I really appreciate those thoughts and
[1:53:35] insights. I I was thinking about your
[1:53:37] book, The Law of the Sublime, as a
[1:53:39] portal into richer experience. I I
[1:53:42] wasn't thinking about the macro there.
[1:53:44] Were you thinking about the sort of
[1:53:46] macro offering and hope for the book to
[1:53:49] have that impact as you wrote it or is
[1:53:50] that cuz you wrote it across many years,
[1:53:54] seven years you said, and so it sort of
[1:53:55] happened in parallel with with the uh
[1:53:58] with the the maddening of madness taking
[1:54:00] over the world.
[1:54:01] >> It was always in the back of my mind,
[1:54:02] but it's a grandiose ambition. And so I
[1:54:05] don't want to be grandiose
[1:54:07] but I tell you recently I saw a film
[1:54:11] that I love by this director Pelolini
[1:54:13] Italian director and it was called the
[1:54:16] gospel according to St. Matthew and
[1:54:18] literally Pasolini who was a homosexual
[1:54:21] Marxist and was pretty much an atheist.
[1:54:24] He grew up in Italian Catholic culture.
[1:54:28] He kind of fell in love with the idea of
[1:54:30] Christ and he did a film
[1:54:34] literally recreating the gospel
[1:54:36] according to Matthew, the book of
[1:54:38] Matthew in the New Testament. He uses
[1:54:40] all of the words from that chapter and
[1:54:43] he use and he chronologically goes
[1:54:45] through all of the experiences of Christ
[1:54:47] and he uses non-professional actors. The
[1:54:50] guy who plays Christ is like a
[1:54:52] 19-year-old Spanish student of
[1:54:54] mathematics. He just plucked him out,
[1:54:56] right? And the movie is is actually a
[1:55:00] very spiritual experience because it
[1:55:02] literally feels like you're there and
[1:55:04] you can literally understand where it
[1:55:06] comes from. I was raised Jewish, but
[1:55:10] when you read the New Testament, it's
[1:55:12] beautiful and the ideas in it are
[1:55:14] beautiful. So, I went back and I reread
[1:55:17] the book of Matthew.
[1:55:19] And I'm going, how can a a philosophy
[1:55:23] that is so much about love? And there's
[1:55:25] an expressions in there where somebody
[1:55:27] asks, well, um, should I love my
[1:55:30] neighbor? And Christ says, "Anybody can
[1:55:33] love your neighbor. What you need to
[1:55:34] love is the person who's not your
[1:55:36] neighbor. You need to love the person
[1:55:37] furthest away from your experience, the
[1:55:39] marginalized, the people that normally
[1:55:41] are hated." How can a religion that
[1:55:44] expresses that end up now being this
[1:55:47] kind of philosophy of division and
[1:55:49] hatred and marginalizing and
[1:55:52] polarization and and victimization?
[1:55:55] How is it that we take something and
[1:55:57] turn it into its opposite is something
[1:56:00] maybe I'll write about in another book
[1:56:02] because it's a phenomenon that
[1:56:03] fascinates me. I don't claim to know the
[1:56:07] answer deeply, but my reflexive response
[1:56:10] is by taking something that's not of
[1:56:12] humans and humans contorting it,
[1:56:16] perverting it into something that's of
[1:56:18] them.
[1:56:19] >> Yeah.
[1:56:19] >> Right. You know, and I think perverted
[1:56:22] is the operative word there, right? You
[1:56:24] know, it's I think
[1:56:25] >> stolen spirituality. It's manipulated.
[1:56:28] in it. Is it fair to say that one of the
[1:56:31] major barriers to the sublime is
[1:56:34] focusing on things that are of humans
[1:56:37] too much? I mean, humans do incredible
[1:56:40] things, but
[1:56:41] >> um and is it then fair to say that maybe
[1:56:44] the world's losing its mind because we
[1:56:47] have too much awareness of what other
[1:56:49] humans are doing all the time?
[1:56:50] >> Yeah.
[1:56:51] >> And it's blocking our awareness of all
[1:56:53] the other stuff around us. I was reading
[1:56:55] the newspaper this morning um which I do
[1:56:58] every morning and there was two articles
[1:57:00] in there. One was
[1:57:03] they're beginning to alter their idea of
[1:57:05] where alien life could could evolve.
[1:57:08] There are these planets out there that
[1:57:10] are wrote that are uh I think they call
[1:57:12] it K7 or something. I don't know.
[1:57:14] They're um around a star that is much
[1:57:18] larger than our sun and that therefore
[1:57:20] burns rather more slowly
[1:57:23] and they're perfectly round. They're not
[1:57:27] they're not marked by all these um
[1:57:29] meteors that would have hit planet
[1:57:31] Earth. And because they're a perfect
[1:57:34] distance from the sun, they probably
[1:57:36] have water and probably life forms could
[1:57:38] evolve on these planets. And they were
[1:57:40] calling it it would be like a paradise
[1:57:42] of evolution.
[1:57:44] I I can't remember the specifics of why
[1:57:46] they say that, but it would be an
[1:57:48] environment much more conducive to life
[1:57:51] than planet Earth. And it was
[1:57:53] speculating
[1:57:55] it took us almost 4 billion years to
[1:57:57] evolve intelligent life on planet Earth.
[1:58:00] And that's probably why we haven't
[1:58:01] encountered other alien intelligent life
[1:58:04] forms because it takes so long to
[1:58:05] develop, right? But these planets, their
[1:58:09] star won't burn out. They've probably
[1:58:10] been around much longer. they probably
[1:58:12] could be intelligent life, right? I'm
[1:58:15] thinking that's one article in the
[1:58:17] paper. People should be like exploding
[1:58:19] over that thought because not what it
[1:58:22] does is it makes you realize our own
[1:58:24] planet and how weird it is that life
[1:58:27] evolved on it and it was a very
[1:58:29] precarious experiment. It almost never
[1:58:31] happened. So, it makes you realize how
[1:58:34] precarious life is on planet Earth. The
[1:58:37] Arthur article I read was about
[1:58:39] dinosaurs and this fossil that was
[1:58:41] discovered in China of an early bird.
[1:58:45] It's the most preserved fossil of a of a
[1:58:48] bird in the dinosaur era because what is
[1:58:51] the relation? Birds are evolved from
[1:58:53] dinosaurs. We know that. But there were
[1:58:55] also flying terasaurs. There were flying
[1:58:58] reptiles that weren't that didn't evolve
[1:59:01] that weren't dinosaurs. Right? And I'm
[1:59:05] thinking they were explaining how
[1:59:07] beautiful the the fly, how they took to
[1:59:09] flight and the different forms of flight
[1:59:11] that occurred. Thinking, my god, on our
[1:59:15] planet,
[1:59:16] just imagine what that life was like
[1:59:18] back then. How insane it was that there
[1:59:20] were dinosaurs. How insane it was. My
[1:59:23] point is, we could be immersing
[1:59:26] ourselves in all of these insane things
[1:59:29] that science is revealing to us. It
[1:59:31] could literally alter our minds and our
[1:59:33] relationship to people, to life. When
[1:59:36] you realize that life was this thin
[1:59:39] experiment that almost never happened.
[1:59:41] It alters how you look at things, right?
[1:59:44] So
[1:59:46] yeah, we have to get outside the human,
[1:59:48] but scientists are the ones who are
[1:59:50] uncovering it. Humans are this insane
[1:59:54] creature that is able to uncover the
[1:59:57] secrets of the universe. Right? So in
[2:00:00] essence I try and say in the book we are
[2:00:02] sublime that we can do that that we can
[2:00:05] undercover what is not human and the
[2:00:07] laws of the universe and things going
[2:00:09] on. So it's not like the human is this
[2:00:13] ugly thing. If you think of science it's
[2:00:15] built up of
[2:00:17] hundreds of thousands of individual work
[2:00:20] research papers people immersing
[2:00:22] themselves in details and then
[2:00:24] uncovering these fantastic things.
[2:00:26] Right? So to me, science is a sublime
[2:00:29] phenomenon and it's humans uncovering
[2:00:34] these insane stories. It's not like I'm
[2:00:37] saying I hate humans and you guys have
[2:00:40] to immerse yourself. It's actually the
[2:00:43] opposite. We have uncovered this these
[2:00:47] in phenomenal stories. We are the
[2:00:49] creators of what is sublime. And so that
[2:00:52] to me is is
[2:00:55] I can remember the early days of the
[2:00:56] internet back in the early 2000s where
[2:01:00] it wasn't what the internet is now. It
[2:01:02] was actually a realm of kind of freedom.
[2:01:05] I could I could connect to somebody in
[2:01:07] Thailand who was interested in Nietze,
[2:01:10] who I am, and was interested in John
[2:01:12] Cold Train, who I am, and we could talk
[2:01:15] and we could connect and we could see,
[2:01:17] yes, you come from a very different
[2:01:19] culture. Why are you interested in these
[2:01:20] things? And it would be very
[2:01:21] fascinating. It was this realm of of
[2:01:24] freedom. It was like a giant human
[2:01:26] brain.
[2:01:28] So technology could be sublime. It could
[2:01:31] lead to a paradise. Humans have a
[2:01:34] sublime quality. But we also have the
[2:01:36] capacity for something much different.
[2:01:38] And look at what the internet has
[2:01:40] become. It's become something that is
[2:01:42] not like it was in the early 2000s.
[2:01:44] Turned into something very ugly and very
[2:01:45] dark.
[2:01:47] >> Yeah. I have thought for a while now
[2:01:49] that the the real problem with humans is
[2:01:53] our propensity to get absorbed by drama.
[2:01:58] >> Yeah.
[2:01:58] >> And by numbing out.
[2:02:01] >> Oh god. Yeah. Uh in in fact my mental
[2:02:04] practice in the morning I do a short
[2:02:07] meditation very brief and do the
[2:02:09] sunlight thing and the rest but I have
[2:02:11] this um imagery that I implant in my
[2:02:13] head of like a thin almost like a
[2:02:17] tightroppe that I have to walk
[2:02:20] >> and on either side is like a slide down
[2:02:22] to the not to the death but in one side
[2:02:25] is drama and the other side is numbing
[2:02:27] out.
[2:02:27] >> I see. And I do realize that you have to
[2:02:29] get a certain distance and then and then
[2:02:31] that tight that tight rope turns into
[2:02:33] more of a of a flat surface that you can
[2:02:36] rest on and stay. But those early hours
[2:02:38] like
[2:02:39] >> wow I I need to do that because
[2:02:41] otherwise that there are too many things
[2:02:43] algorithms and so forth that can just
[2:02:45] yank me down the
[2:02:46] >> the either side of that tightroppe and
[2:02:48] it's not good. I realize that you put
[2:02:51] actionable tools in in the book, but I'm
[2:02:54] pulling from what we've discussed so
[2:02:56] far. I'm hearing that an important
[2:02:58] component to accessing the best of what
[2:03:00] is human, but also the nonhuman in order
[2:03:03] to enrich one's life and access to the
[2:03:05] sublime is a slowing down. So that means
[2:03:11] intentionally not leaping onto the the
[2:03:15] time scale, the rhythm of just anyone.
[2:03:18] >> Yeah.
[2:03:19] >> Uh to be very deliberate about that or
[2:03:21] just anything.
[2:03:22] >> Yeah. And I do hear you loud and clear
[2:03:25] saying that, you know, humans have a
[2:03:26] tremendous amount of value to offer our
[2:03:28] lives.
[2:03:29] >> And and not just in in love, although
[2:03:32] certainly there as you described,
[2:03:34] >> but it does seem that it's getting
[2:03:37] harder and harder to have a great life,
[2:03:42] even with resources,
[2:03:44] the the challenge becomes not getting
[2:03:47] yanked down the sides of the of this uh
[2:03:50] you know, imagery numbers. Yeah.
[2:03:52] >> So I think we can easily see the
[2:03:54] barriers to a good life to the sublime.
[2:03:56] Are the if you want to just toss out a
[2:03:59] couple other like tools or ways to
[2:04:01] access the better version of ourselves
[2:04:03] so that we can get to the sublime. You
[2:04:06] mentioned meditation, writing by hand.
[2:04:08] These might seem, you know, simple, but
[2:04:10] they're very profound ways to to get
[2:04:12] there. Do you keep your phone out of the
[2:04:14] room when you work, when you relate uh
[2:04:16] to other people? I do, but of course I'm
[2:04:19] human and it tempts me and I understand
[2:04:21] the addiction. So I've uh I don't want
[2:04:25] to there's a slight hypocritical side to
[2:04:27] me because I can feel it and I do have
[2:04:29] to take the phone and put it in the
[2:04:31] drawer and I'm getting better and better
[2:04:33] at it. But you talked about numbness. I
[2:04:37] think a lot of the sublime is a function
[2:04:39] of your sensitivity to the world.
[2:04:42] So
[2:04:44] you were born with these senses like any
[2:04:47] creature that are open that are
[2:04:50] constantly giving you feedback from the
[2:04:53] environment, right? That's what senses
[2:04:55] are for. That's what they're designed
[2:04:56] for. So you don't die so you see there's
[2:04:59] a tiger over there and it doesn't kill
[2:05:00] you. Your senses are there to connect
[2:05:02] you to your environment, to connect you
[2:05:04] to the outside world. I have a story in
[2:05:07] the book about this Russian scientist at
[2:05:11] the turn of the 20th century who's a
[2:05:12] geographer who's sent to Siberia
[2:05:16] to kind of discover to map give a map of
[2:05:19] of Siberia the the the forest there
[2:05:21] called the Taigga and he encounters in
[2:05:24] in the middle of this an indigenous
[2:05:26] hunter named Dur Duula famous book and
[2:05:30] then and a movie was made of it. He's
[2:05:33] part of this indigenous culture called
[2:05:35] the Gold, which is on the brink of
[2:05:37] extinction. And he's a lone hunter and
[2:05:39] trapper.
[2:05:41] And the Russian scientist invites him to
[2:05:43] join their expedition as a scout because
[2:05:46] he's intrigued by this man. He slowly
[2:05:49] realizes that this man has an
[2:05:52] intelligence and a sensitivity to the
[2:05:54] environment that is far superior to
[2:05:56] anything that he possesses. He can read
[2:05:59] the sky and the climate and he knows the
[2:06:01] weather that's coming. You can see the
[2:06:02] birds and know what it indicates. At one
[2:06:05] point they encounter a tiger. They hear
[2:06:08] a tiger growling through some bushes.
[2:06:10] And a Siberian tiger is not something
[2:06:12] you want to mess with, right? And so the
[2:06:14] Russian guy gets frightened. He's he's
[2:06:16] frightened. He's got a frightened exper
[2:06:18] uh reaction. He picks up his rifle and
[2:06:20] Darus says, "Put that rifle down." He
[2:06:22] like screams at him. He goes walks up to
[2:06:24] the tiger, which he calls Ama, and he
[2:06:26] goes, "Ama, calm down. We don't we're
[2:06:29] not here to hurt you. We understand you.
[2:06:31] this is your forest. We respect you. We
[2:06:34] will not harm you. And the Russian guy's
[2:06:36] freaking out and the tiger walks away.
[2:06:40] And at the end of the story, Deru ends
[2:06:42] up getting murdered by some people who
[2:06:44] were stealing his whatever he his
[2:06:46] trappings. He goes, "We humans have lost
[2:06:50] something. If only we could keep our
[2:06:53] scientific culture, which he is a
[2:06:54] scientist, but also have these powers of
[2:06:58] our senses, we would be another animal.
[2:07:02] We would be insane. We'd be insanely
[2:07:03] powerful and we wouldn't be so
[2:07:05] destructive. We have powers that come
[2:07:08] through the senses. It's a form of
[2:07:10] intelligence, right? And when our
[2:07:13] sensory experience is so limited, as it
[2:07:16] is as we live in towns and cities, it's
[2:07:19] so same. It's not we're not really we're
[2:07:22] not really listening to sounds. We're
[2:07:23] not really smelling things. We're not
[2:07:25] really looking. Our thoughts become
[2:07:28] constricted. We think we're just
[2:07:30] intelligent animals, but we're physical
[2:07:32] creatures. Our intelligence is modeled
[2:07:35] after our senses. And if we only see the
[2:07:38] same things, our minds kind of atrophy.
[2:07:42] And our creativity and our inventiveness
[2:07:44] came from being in these environments
[2:07:46] that were dangerous. and we had to see
[2:07:48] and think and feel our way into things
[2:07:51] into the into the world. Right? So a lot
[2:07:54] of the sublime is a function of your
[2:07:56] sensitivity.
[2:07:57] You can recover that. It's not like your
[2:08:00] atrophied senses are forever like that.
[2:08:04] You can put yourself in these
[2:08:06] environments. You can go to the desert
[2:08:08] and you can walk through the desert and
[2:08:09] you can feel the emptiness and the
[2:08:11] silence and the lack of vegetation and
[2:08:14] and let the environment inhabit you and
[2:08:16] your senses will awaken. You can go to a
[2:08:18] mountain. You can swim in the ocean. You
[2:08:21] can sit in your goddamn backyard and
[2:08:22] encounter it like I did with my sublime
[2:08:25] book. Your senses are waiting to be
[2:08:28] awakened. If we took somebody who was
[2:08:31] like a stock broker on Wall Street with
[2:08:33] the most atrophied senses you can
[2:08:35] imagine and we gave him a shot of LSD or
[2:08:39] peyote, suddenly it would all open up.
[2:08:42] He would have these experiences as well.
[2:08:45] So the point is it's not dead. It's
[2:08:47] there. It's wanting to be awakened like
[2:08:49] that guy who I said had his
[2:08:51] self-remembering experiences. It
[2:08:53] awakened him. It can happen at any
[2:08:55] moment, but it's a function of your
[2:08:57] sensitivity to the world and how you use
[2:08:59] your senses to let the world inside of
[2:09:02] you and enclose yourself in this little
[2:09:04] kind of citadel. What I'm gathering is
[2:09:06] that our ability to be sensitive,
[2:09:10] to feel things with a lot of intensity
[2:09:13] and to really be explorers, like curious
[2:09:18] explorers are key portals to the this
[2:09:21] thing that you're calling the sublime.
[2:09:24] And we could spend all day thinking
[2:09:25] about the barriers to the sublime. But
[2:09:28] one thing that I do appreciate about the
[2:09:30] way human brains are wired. It's one of
[2:09:31] the great gifts of the human brain is
[2:09:34] that whatever we focus on tends to
[2:09:38] exclude other options. So if we go
[2:09:40] toward drama and numbing out, it
[2:09:42] excludes other options for some period
[2:09:44] of time. if we move toward what we're
[2:09:46] curious about and heightening our
[2:09:48] sensitivity, um those exclude the the
[2:09:52] bad options. And one thing that I I love
[2:09:56] about you so much, man, is that you you
[2:09:58] talk about power, sensitivity,
[2:10:02] um but in particular power through this
[2:10:05] like really benevolent lens. like it's
[2:10:07] like a a really, you know, these days
[2:10:09] that word is so loaded and there's
[2:10:12] clearly awful forms of power, but um
[2:10:14] even the and the way you describe the
[2:10:16] sensual and the erotic, right? These are
[2:10:18] also loaded terms now, unfortunately,
[2:10:19] because because of the way the world is
[2:10:22] and where, you know, we currently are.
[2:10:24] But um I have great hope for uh for this
[2:10:28] book to not just educate people, but to
[2:10:30] to transform them and to transform the
[2:10:33] way they interact with the world and
[2:10:35] each other. I haven't read it yet, so
[2:10:38] that's quite quite a statement. Um, but
[2:10:40] [clears throat] based on everything you
[2:10:41] you've told us,
[2:10:42] >> if you would, I'd like to ask you one
[2:10:45] final question, and it's the meanest
[2:10:48] question I could possibly ask.
[2:10:49] >> Good. I look forward to it.
[2:10:51] >> Yeah. I had a feeling you would.
[2:10:52] >> Okay.
[2:10:53] >> You know, as somebody who just finished
[2:10:54] a book
[2:10:54] >> Oh, yeah. by hand after seven years and
[2:10:58] really grinding it out and God bless you
[2:11:00] for doing it and have written all these
[2:11:02] other amazing books that I have read and
[2:11:04] that I do love.
[2:11:06] >> What's the next book?
[2:11:07] >> Oh sh
[2:11:09] >> or is there a seed of something in your
[2:11:11] mind that you're willing to share? And
[2:11:12] no is a perfectly good answer obviously.
[2:11:14] >> Well, I have two strains. I know I can't
[2:11:16] do another book like that because like
[2:11:19] this because I'm in heading into my late
[2:11:22] 60s and I don't have the energy. I had a
[2:11:25] stroke and I just can't put myself
[2:11:27] through it. I can't wait seven years
[2:11:29] because I don't know how much life I
[2:11:30] have left.
[2:11:31] >> Now, you're going to be around a while,
[2:11:32] man.
[2:11:32] >> All right. I hope
[2:11:33] >> you're doing all the right things.
[2:11:34] >> Okay, I'm trying. But you never know
[2:11:36] because people with who are survivors of
[2:11:38] strokes often don't have a long life
[2:11:42] expectancy. It happens particularly when
[2:11:44] the age that happened to me because
[2:11:46] you're you're prone to other things
[2:11:48] happening unless you're very careful.
[2:11:50] So, I can't do another big project, but
[2:11:54] I'm kind of obsessed with something
[2:11:56] that's very hard for me to to describe
[2:11:59] verbally, but it has to do with the
[2:12:01] invisible. How many things affect our
[2:12:05] lives that you cannot actually see and
[2:12:08] that are very powerful, but that if you
[2:12:10] could see, it would alter your it would
[2:12:13] alter your experience. So, to give you
[2:12:15] an example, we can't see the future. We
[2:12:19] have no knowledge of the future. But
[2:12:21] things are happening right now in each
[2:12:24] in our present moment. Little trends
[2:12:26] that are going to create the future. And
[2:12:29] if we could somehow see them, if we
[2:12:31] could kind of crystallize them into some
[2:12:34] form, we would have this kind of
[2:12:36] knowledge of where we're headed and it
[2:12:38] would be very powerful. And there are
[2:12:40] people in history who demonstrated a
[2:12:43] high ability to predict what was coming.
[2:12:45] And they fascinate me. They like to live
[2:12:47] outside of their time.
[2:12:50] But we live in these abstract spaces
[2:12:53] where we everything is is symbolic to
[2:12:56] us. We just live in these abstract
[2:12:58] worlds and they're invisible and we're
[2:13:00] not aware of their influence on them.
[2:13:02] And I want to kind of make visible all
[2:13:04] of these things that you don't think
[2:13:06] about are affecting your life. It's a
[2:13:08] weird concept in my hand and I've kind
[2:13:11] of detailed on pen and paper some
[2:13:13] examples and things but it's going to be
[2:13:15] a shorter book and it's going to be
[2:13:18] about negative space about seeing what's
[2:13:22] not there as opposed to what's there
[2:13:24] what's missing in the picture. Okay. The
[2:13:27] other thing is I'm toying with the idea
[2:13:29] of writing fiction because it would be
[2:13:31] an insane challenge for me. you'd be
[2:13:33] using a different part of my brain. But
[2:13:36] I'm kind of fascinated
[2:13:39] with the tech world and how it's so
[2:13:43] misguided and where did it come from and
[2:13:45] where is it about humans that have
[2:13:47] created this kind of slightly monstrous
[2:13:50] future that we're headed towards. And
[2:13:53] I've known some of these tech overlords.
[2:13:56] I've met them and I'm kind of interested
[2:13:58] in their psychology and where it came
[2:14:01] from and what is the origin of this form
[2:14:04] of thinking that is I find very very
[2:14:08] dangerous right and so it's very in
[2:14:12] coate it's very much uh nebulous but I'm
[2:14:15] toying with these characters and I'm
[2:14:17] researching about I'm going deep into
[2:14:19] the origins of this deep levels of
[2:14:22] alienation that are that are being
[2:14:25] birthed in this present moment through
[2:14:27] art technology and fiction will give me
[2:14:31] the ability to kind of go inside their
[2:14:34] minds in a way that's I can't really do
[2:14:37] with non-fiction. Right? So I find what
[2:14:40] I want to express about this dangerous
[2:14:42] world we're headed to is more suited for
[2:14:44] fiction than non-fiction. So I'll see
[2:14:47] those are two ideas I'm toying with and
[2:14:49] hopefully my life goes on long enough to
[2:14:52] try and create them. I really appreciate
[2:14:54] you sharing where your deliberation
[2:14:57] um is around that. I have great
[2:15:00] confidence you'll be around a while now.
[2:15:04] You're doing all the right things.
[2:15:05] You're exceedingly sharp and exceedingly
[2:15:08] kind in taking the time to come talk
[2:15:10] about the book and share these ideas
[2:15:12] with us. Um again, I'm super excited to
[2:15:14] read it. You're a real role model to me
[2:15:16] and have been for a long time.
[2:15:19] >> You really are. I mean, ever since I
[2:15:20] read Mastery, I was like, "Oh man.
[2:15:22] this book, this guy, like you know, and
[2:15:24] you're a few years older than me, not
[2:15:26] not terribly much older. And so that's
[2:15:29] always been a a goal of mine is to, you
[2:15:31] know, identify people for whom I I could
[2:15:33] really model some components of of my my
[2:15:37] life and career after um even if the the
[2:15:39] the specifics are different. And it's
[2:15:41] it's uh been great thus far. So, I
[2:15:43] appreciate you've been
[2:15:45] >> I'm very humbled by those words.
[2:15:47] >> Yeah. Well, you didn't know it, but I
[2:15:48] apprenticed myself to you without asking
[2:15:50] your permission. You're like a giant in
[2:15:52] in this world and I'm I feel very
[2:15:54] humbled by that.
[2:15:55] >> You were truly uh in your light. Uh
[2:15:58] thank you [clears throat] so much,
[2:15:59] Robert, for coming here. Let's get
[2:16:02] together soon.
[2:16:02] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[2:16:03] >> Maybe we do that psychedelic journey
[2:16:04] together.
[2:16:05] >> Oh my god. I I'd love it. I love it.
[2:16:07] >> We won't live stream it. We're just
[2:16:08] going to have the experience.
[2:16:10] >> No one's going to be here about it,
[2:16:11] right?
[2:16:12] >> Just thank you. Thanks for being you.
[2:16:14] Thanks for being such a an incredibly
[2:16:16] powerful and thoughtful writer and keep
[2:16:18] going.
[2:16:19] >> Thank you so much, Andrew. I really
[2:16:20] appreciate it. Thank you so much for the
[2:16:21] opportunity. I really appreciate it.
[2:16:24] >> We'll do it again.
[2:16:25] >> Okay. I I look forward to it.
[2:16:27] >> Thank you for joining me for today's
[2:16:28] discussion with Robert Green. To learn
[2:16:30] more about his work and to find links to
[2:16:32] his various books, including his new
[2:16:34] book, The Art of the Sublime, please see
[2:16:36] the links in the show notes caption. If
[2:16:38] you're learning from and or enjoying
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