Transcript
[0:13] hello and welcome once more to conscious
[0:15] TV I'm I McNay and today my guest is
[0:19] John Butler and we're not in London at
[0:21] are usual Studios we're up in Bakewell
[0:24] in darbishire John wasn't able to come
[0:26] to London so we've actually in a very
[0:29] special location where in All Saints
[0:31] Church in Bakewell and we're here
[0:34] because John comes to meditate and pray
[0:37] here 5:00 every morning for two hours
[0:40] and also later on the afternoon
[0:42] afternoon for 2 or three hours so he
[0:44] spends a lot of time here just in the
[0:46] corner there which is just off camera so
[0:49] we heard about John because someone
[0:51] wrote in and told us about about him and
[0:54] he's written two books wonders of
[0:56] spiritual
[0:58] unfoldment which is 400 pag
[1:00] and it's very very interesting read and
[1:04] Mystic
[1:05] approaches and he also has two books of
[1:08] per which he's just given me which I
[1:10] haven't looked at yet destined to Joy
[1:12] Mystic verses part one and do you pray
[1:15] for me Mystic verses part two so if you
[1:19] want to read more about John there's
[1:21] plenty out there to uh to
[1:24] read so John welcome to conscious
[1:28] TV and I'm going to ask you first of
[1:31] all about your father because he taught
[1:34] you some great things in life didn't
[1:39] he he was a quiet man an
[1:42] artist a
[1:46] Craftsman very conscious of his
[1:49] surroundings a landscape artist mostly
[1:52] at that
[1:54] time so he taught me to observe
[1:57] nature to see the beauty of
[2:00] what was in front of me nothing
[2:02] elaborate just the hedges the trees the
[2:06] grass to notice the
[2:11] sky he was also very conscious of good
[2:16] work he loved carpentry he taught me how
[2:21] to use
[2:23] tools and I remember so well him saying
[2:26] pay attention keep your eye on what
[2:29] you're doing
[2:31] when you're sawing a piece of wood
[2:33] listen and watch move listen to and
[2:36] watch the movement of the saw watch The
[2:39] Hammer so you hit the nail
[2:42] straight and these two lessons are 100%
[2:46] giving
[2:47] attention and observing what was around
[2:50] me have stood me in good stead all my
[2:53] life they wonderful qualities which are
[2:57] probably quite rare these days which is
[2:59] sad but but that's the way the world is
[3:02] and and what did you get from your
[3:03] mother mom was
[3:06] Russian
[3:08] well she was also an artist in her way
[3:11] she a housewife of
[3:14] course um that's what women were they
[3:17] called themselves there and were proud
[3:18] of it mom was always when women's live
[3:21] came in she she
[3:23] said there's nothing wrong with being a
[3:25] mother and a
[3:26] housewife anyway what I got from Mom was
[3:29] Prim a Russian
[3:31] heart and Russian
[3:34] Hearts they just spill out all over the
[3:37] place I was always told as a child I
[3:40] wear my heart on my sleeve well people
[3:43] laughed at me but it was one of the best
[3:45] things to have a great heart and to
[3:51] that a great heart to work to work from
[3:54] the heart to rec to recognize the
[3:56] existence of the
[3:57] heart and uh and whole household Shone
[4:02] with that tender loving care that
[4:03] emanates from her someone that loves
[4:06] their work and gives themselves to it
[4:09] the way the table was laid the way she
[4:11] knitted our clothes for us did The
[4:14] Mending did the washing up everything
[4:16] was a work of art and done with
[4:19] love and now at 7 years old you were
[4:22] sent to boarding school and that was a
[4:24] little bit of a shock but you would
[4:26] escape to the chapel and pray when
[4:28] needed new to find your to find your
[4:31] Solitude and balance again it was a
[4:33] shock because up till then we lived in
[4:36] the Deep country and I hardly knew what
[4:37] another little boy
[4:39] was um my companions were nature and
[4:43] animals and I was suddenly thrown into
[4:45] this world of other little boys and I
[4:48] was completely lost and for the first
[4:50] time in my life I knew what it was to
[4:52] feel isolated and
[4:53] lonely thank God the school was in a
[4:56] rural setting so there were big Gardens
[4:59] where I could go and
[5:01] and uh and also in my little childish
[5:04] way I remember so well just Burying my
[5:08] little head in my hand and closing my
[5:10] eyes and saying God bless mommy and
[5:12] daddy and my sister and our dog and what
[5:15] a Haven
[5:17] of a Haven of home and security that was
[5:22] for me it seems even at an early age you
[5:25] had a way of going inside and finding
[5:29] somewhere that you could rest as you put
[5:32] that use the word Haven just now yes I
[5:35] think that probably was so um or if not
[5:38] inside at least to Stillness and
[5:42] quietness mean in nature it's outside
[5:45] isn't it you look at a tree you put your
[5:48] arms around a tree and you're held in
[5:50] Stillness in quietness in that
[5:52] reassurance
[5:54] of of just simply being
[5:58] itself that's what a contrast it is to
[6:01] the the noise and the and
[6:05] the the agitation that you get from most
[6:09] people and you actually you talk about I
[6:12] don't if you remember the beginning of
[6:14] this book you talk about it's a book
[6:17] about committed to discovering Stillness
[6:21] well I wouldn't say that no it's really
[6:23] a book to dis committed to discovering
[6:26] well I don't know what really it's uh if
[6:30] I use clever words like the infinite and
[6:33] or even God it as a young man I wasn't I
[6:36] still don't know really what they are
[6:38] who doesn't know what God
[6:40] is nobody knows what God is but but
[6:44] there's how can I put
[6:47] it per one Longs for the unlimited for
[6:51] freedom and uh and for
[6:54] love and in in worldly experience all
[6:57] these things are finite they have an end
[6:59] you go out you discover Freedom go on
[7:02] climb a mountain but then you got to
[7:03] come home
[7:05] again love is wonderful in its flowering
[7:07] but then sooner or later it says no it
[7:10] has an
[7:11] end
[7:12] um all the things you long for happiness
[7:15] it all comes and goes doesn't it and I
[7:18] think
[7:20] uh perhaps I was just greedy I
[7:23] wanted that which didn't
[7:27] end um but sometimes we need that you
[7:31] call it greed that commitment to find
[7:34] otherwise absolutely that's the
[7:36] motivation isn't it yeah we come come on
[7:39] a bit later I want to just go through
[7:41] your story a little bit sequentially and
[7:43] just see the important to discover these
[7:47] important pointers in your life
[7:49] so you know there's so much we could do
[7:52] because you are now 79 years old there's
[7:54] so much we could talk about but I'm
[7:55] going to summarize it to some extent you
[7:58] um were an army officer which I guess
[8:01] was national service involved in a
[8:04] family business and then in 1963 you
[8:07] went to South America yes what's the
[8:11] reason you went to South America oh I
[8:13] wanted to make the world a better
[8:17] place what was your vision of making the
[8:20] world of well I was a farmer I I'd loved
[8:23] farming since was my first breath I was
[8:25] soaked in farming I I I had I just
[8:29] wanted wanted to be a farmer it was my
[8:30] overriding sort of dream really um and
[8:35] uh and i' spent some time I studied the
[8:39] subject and uh it was the time when
[8:42] these Charities like Oxfam were just
[8:44] beginning and and so it was in sort of
[8:46] the fashionable thing really I
[8:49] suppose I had another mate we were going
[8:52] out to Bolivia we were going to take a
[8:55] they were giving grants of a thousand
[8:57] hectares to new settlers who'd go out
[8:58] and grow food for the hungry so we
[9:01] thought we'd go out and do that we were
[9:03] young and strong
[9:06] um but I made didn't come he he he met a
[9:09] a girl that stayed in England and I met
[9:12] a Peruvian girl and and her father
[9:15] invited me to go and work for him in
[9:17] Peru so I did that but on a big sheep
[9:21] asander but that was my time of sort of
[9:25] socialist time of my life and uh I
[9:28] wanted to do good so I ended up working
[9:30] as a volunteer agriculturist in the
[9:33] mountains of Peru which must have been
[9:35] beautiful actually well it was uh I
[9:38] wouldn't say it was easy but uh it there
[9:40] was plenty of space up there and I loved
[9:42] that I led the donkeys and the
[9:46] auction and uh yes I I was I it was a
[9:50] good year I but uh I think like most
[9:53] people who done voluntary
[9:55] service it uh I learned it gave me much
[9:59] more than I gave to it really and I
[10:02] learned probably the greatest lesson of
[10:05] my life I remember sitting on a mountain
[10:08] side one day I i' had done a lot of work
[10:12] or little bit of work with planting
[10:14] trees on eroded Mountain sides and of
[10:17] course the local sheep and goats had
[10:19] come and eaten them all off and I was
[10:20] sitting there a bit
[10:22] depressed and it seemed that some little
[10:25] voice seemed to say to me to make whole
[10:28] be whole
[10:30] make whole to make whole be whole well I
[10:35] hardly understood what that was then but
[10:39] I had read a little bit about meditation
[10:43] not that I really understood it but I
[10:46] saw myself as a mixed up young man
[10:48] trying to help people the local Indians
[10:51] older and wiser than myself and more
[10:54] able to live and I realized I had to do
[10:58] something about sorting out myself
[10:59] myself before I could be much used to
[11:02] others so having read a bit about
[11:05] meditation when I came home to England I
[11:09] looked for and I found a school of
[11:11] meditation I want to just point out one
[11:13] more thing that I thought was important
[11:15] in your book was there was uh a
[11:19] situation you were in the mountain uh
[11:21] the jungle I think in Peru and you felt
[11:25] the only way was to surrender oh do you
[11:28] remember that that was quite I think yes
[11:32] we I had a pal and uh and uh and and uh
[11:38] we found a an Indian who'd take us and
[11:41] we had several days in the jungle just
[11:44] walking through the Jungle which was
[11:45] must have be an incredible experience it
[11:47] was an incredible experience it was
[11:49] absolutely wonderful um the jungle's
[11:52] very thick it's quite difficult to walk
[11:54] through
[11:57] mostly the great trees above there's
[12:00] very little sunlight comes down to the
[12:01] forest floor you creep along over the
[12:03] fallen leaves and these huge lizards and
[12:06] snails and and
[12:08] snakes see monkeys up in the trees and
[12:12] at one point we uh came to a little
[12:15] creek with a Sandy Sandy Banks and there
[12:18] was a great sort of Farrow gouged out of
[12:22] this sand as though someone had dragged
[12:24] a big oil barrel through it and uh and
[12:29] uh we looked at the guide and it was a
[12:32] huge snake an anaconda huh and I wanted
[12:36] to follow up and and find it but he
[12:38] wouldn't let me he said it would be
[12:40] lying curled up ready to grab us and uh
[12:44] and then it started to rain and we
[12:45] camped just just near there just just
[12:48] beside it and
[12:50] uh um the S made a little fire was
[12:54] sleeping on the ground there and
[12:58] um I didn't sleep very well I think I
[13:01] maybe I woke up in the middle of the
[13:03] night and and the rain had
[13:06] cleared and you know the jungle's full
[13:08] of of shrieks and funny sounds rustlings
[13:11] at night is all the animals come out and
[13:13] move around and I lay I sat there by the
[13:17] campfire in this little circle of light
[13:19] and thought of this great snake I could
[13:20] reach out and touch it probably for all
[13:23] I knew and I began to feel fear he would
[13:26] We're alone in this jungle if the Indian
[13:28] deserted us God knows what we'd have
[13:31] done and then quite unexplicably
[13:35] I just perhaps I stopped fighting I gave
[13:39] up the struggle I
[13:41] surrendered I just relaxed into the
[13:43] situation as it was into the
[13:46] unknown and I suddenly felt
[13:48] peace such as I'd never felt
[13:53] before just total peace in which all the
[13:58] threats Sur rounded us were
[14:01] contained and all
[14:05] right and I look back on that as one of
[14:08] my first great spiritual experiences
[14:11] yes you say in the book I put my trust
[14:14] in forces greater than me yes
[14:18] yeah which we all have to do don't we
[14:20] sometimes not all the time way in a way
[14:22] that I've been doing it all my life that
[14:25] is the essence yeah putting your trust
[14:28] in forces great
[14:30] than you that's right
[14:32] yeah do you feel that peace now
[14:35] absolutely
[14:37] yeah of course I'm nervous before an
[14:41] interview what do I do I just find that
[14:44] Stillness yeah and I feel
[14:47] confident it's like an indivisible hand
[14:50] to hold a rock so how do you find the
[14:55] Stillness how do I find it Well it can't
[14:58] be described no but you said you were
[15:00] nervous maybe before the interview so
[15:02] you find that Stillness yeah well I've
[15:05] I've had many years of practice it's a
[15:08] second nature to me now probably my
[15:10] first nature it's so obvious we're
[15:13] sitting in it like fishes in the sea you
[15:15] could never not be still but the trouble
[15:18] is we just don't see it we we we look
[15:20] down and we just live in this Cocoon
[15:23] ofit of mental agitation lost in thought
[15:27] that's the human condition at least what
[15:29] we call the human condition but actually
[15:31] it's lost it's not it's not reality at
[15:35] all it's not what we are this is the
[15:37] cause of all our problems we're absent
[15:41] from the presence of
[15:44] God and this in a
[15:46] way the groundwork was what your father
[15:49] was teaching you yes also to be things
[15:52] watching the nail to be present the soul
[15:55] right W yeah the present is is such an
[15:58] important word yeah now the present
[16:02] moment here and now the present
[16:07] moment you can hear the church clock
[16:09] chiming can't you I can it's sounding in
[16:12] Stillness isn't it it's 1:00 in
[16:14] Stillness and in
[16:19] timelessness time goes round round and
[16:23] round in Eternal
[16:27] presence the peace of God God that
[16:30] passeth
[16:31] understanding right here and
[16:34] now we can never be closer to God than
[16:37] right here and
[16:41] now okay so I'm going to keep going with
[16:44] your story see what else comes out of
[16:46] that so as you were just starting to to
[16:49] stay when you got back from South
[16:51] America you were 27 and you discovered
[16:54] the school of meditation in London yes
[16:57] tell us about that how you discovered it
[16:59] on not so much how you discovered it but
[17:01] how was it important to you well it
[17:04] certainly was very
[17:07] important yes I had to go to London to
[17:10] be taught I was taught
[17:13] um the first practice I I I still I had
[17:17] my first Farm was at bakall then so I
[17:19] had to get the late night train back
[17:21] from London to look after my animals
[17:23] next morning and I was sitting in some
[17:25] panr station waiting room among all the
[17:28] rubbish and unfortunate drunks and
[17:31] homeless that that used
[17:33] it and I I sat and closed my eyes and
[17:36] meditated as I'd been
[17:38] told and there and then in that
[17:41] seemingly uncongenial situation it
[17:44] opened up like
[17:46] that and I realized that all the
[17:51] space the freedom that IID longed for
[17:54] this I'd been traveling the world to
[17:55] find in the deserts and mountains of
[17:57] this world were Within Me
[18:04] and that discovery
[18:07] that that descri what has been going on
[18:10] all ever
[18:12] since bigger and bigger greater and
[18:15] greater better and better so the
[18:17] discovery was the beginning of something
[18:19] in a way it was the beginning of
[18:21] realization yes of course I had the
[18:23] theory I was I was brought up in a
[18:26] Christian School I I had 10 years
[18:28] compulsory chapel and scripture lessons
[18:31] I I knew a lot of the Bible by heart and
[18:34] the old prayer book the kingdom of God
[18:36] is within you you know I'd learned that
[18:38] but what did it mean I didn't really
[18:40] know but but very soon in those first
[18:43] few periods of meditation I realized
[18:45] that there was this Dimension that was
[18:48] not of this not of what we call this
[18:51] world there was a a a a a further
[18:55] Dimension that could be
[18:57] realized that's the word
[19:00] realization you know the the biblical
[19:03] phrase Comes
[19:05] Alive um the kingdom of God what does
[19:09] that mean I don't know it's difficult to
[19:10] say even now but but it's within you it
[19:14] really is
[19:15] within and the peace of God that passes
[19:19] understanding it's beyond the thinking
[19:21] mind you you don't get it by by you know
[19:24] substituting one thought for another but
[19:26] by opening up to this dimension
[19:30] of spirit really that's what it
[19:32] is invisible you can't describe it but
[19:36] everybody knows what silence is no one
[19:38] can describe it who knows what silence
[19:40] I'm sure that everyone knows what
[19:41] silence is actually they think it's just
[19:44] not hearing any noise well exactly
[19:46] exactly I think it's uh we'll go into
[19:49] more detail later but I think
[19:51] the it's almost an art to silence
[19:55] somehow
[19:57] um I know had some again important
[20:01] experiences which helped deepen your
[20:03] realiz realization there was one time
[20:06] when you were I think on the underground
[20:07] train in London where you saw everyone
[20:10] as Jesus is that right well I know I Ed
[20:14] the word when I described it I'm not
[20:17] sure really what I meant by it um I
[20:20] think the words Jesus and Christ so
[20:22] often get
[20:23] used with very nebulous meaning and
[20:26] different people of course mean mean it
[20:28] in different ways but I think what I how
[20:31] I would describe it now as far as I
[20:33] remember it was a realization of this of
[20:37] this
[20:39] Stillness that there in the that that
[20:41] this underground Carriage was was full
[20:43] of this Stillness and within this
[20:47] Stillness the bodies the
[20:50] personalities The Sounds took
[20:54] place and actually pervade pervaded
[20:58] every
[21:00] body whether they realize it or not oh
[21:02] absolutely I mean if you look at
[21:04] people's eyes every every eye shines
[21:07] with more or less light even if the ey
[21:09] is very D it's same light isn't it how
[21:12] many lights are there there's only one
[21:14] light
[21:15] isn't and uh um so it is there's only
[21:20] one Stillness there's only one spirit
[21:22] and and and I think that these uh first
[21:26] experiences of mine um
[21:29] were like
[21:31] that um and you had another time when I
[21:34] think you're also in London where even
[21:37] your saw the garbage is beautiful yes
[21:39] yes well again everything was shining
[21:45] if it depends what you're focused
[21:50] on there are levels of
[21:54] consciousness um you know if your heart
[21:57] is light if your heart is full of light
[22:00] you see light and everything that's in
[22:02] it is
[22:03] light you know beauty is in the eye of
[22:05] the beholder isn't
[22:07] it if your eyes is full of beauty that's
[22:09] what you
[22:11] see yes but I think it was also
[22:13] important from what you explained in the
[22:16] book about that
[22:17] realization that I'm just trying to
[22:19] trying to find the words here that that
[22:22] forc you to review some deeply negative
[22:24] attitudes towards civilization and City
[22:26] Life absolutely well yes as I as I said
[22:29] being a country boy I was I was um I was
[22:33] at that time very negative about about
[22:36] City Life that was sort of the worst of
[22:38] the
[22:40] worst you know we used words like Townes
[22:43] to describe those unfortunate enough to
[22:46] live in the country and civilization was
[22:48] the very very um antithesis of
[22:51] nature unnatural wasn't it and uh and so
[22:56] these were some of the the great lessons
[22:58] of I had to overcome and uh and
[23:02] certainly meditation did help to clear
[23:04] out some of those negative thoughts from
[23:07] my mind but unfortunately there many
[23:09] many more of them deeply buried inside
[23:11] it's a long process it is a long process
[23:14] and I think
[23:16] that one of the things that comes across
[23:19] certainly in your book and your story is
[23:22] this motivation this determination to
[23:26] keep going somehow
[23:29] didn't give up and uh well let's go
[23:31] through the story and we'll we'll kind
[23:33] of come to the examples of this so in
[23:35] your 30s you were you actually thought
[23:38] of becoming a monk at one point you were
[23:39] in and out of monasteries so you were
[23:42] searching still in the Christian
[23:44] tradition I guess
[23:46] there
[23:50] um yes I I don't remember too clearly
[23:54] what my motivation was I think uh I
[23:57] think perhaps it was a reaction you I
[24:00] just didn't want to be what most of my
[24:02] contemporaries were I didn't want to go
[24:04] into business I didn't want to go to the
[24:08] professions I
[24:11] didn't
[24:13] um monastic life seemed to offer
[24:16] a an
[24:20] alternative but it that was that was
[24:24] about the same time that I learned to
[24:27] meditate
[24:29] and it certainly raised the question do
[24:31] I follow this way or the way of
[24:34] meditation I don't see any conflict now
[24:37] but then I did it seemed an either or
[24:40] situation by the way at that time um
[24:43] things have changed a lot in the last 50
[24:45] or 60 years the church was really quite
[24:47] suspicious of
[24:48] meditation it um Know It
[24:53] uh it regarded it to something Eastern
[24:56] which is really very odd but it did
[25:00] um I suppose I was caught up in that but
[25:02] anyway I decided to stay with meditation
[25:05] because even in those early months I
[25:08] realized or I felt it was at least for
[25:10] me a more effective way of spiritual
[25:14] work there was also you know you say
[25:18] more than once in the book that your
[25:20] your two loves at that point with
[25:22] meditation and farming and animals and
[25:24] there's a lovely example you gave of at
[25:27] one point you had to sell your farm and
[25:29] you were quite sad about that and you
[25:31] were just sitting feeling it and this
[25:33] Ram came over you just talk us through
[25:36] what happened
[25:38] there excuse me may I just jump back for
[25:41] a moment to make a a little comment
[25:44] about that decision about
[25:47] meditation
[25:49] um the accusations often made that
[25:52] meditation is a withdrawal from this
[25:54] world but absolutely on the contrary the
[25:58] key principle of the method that I
[26:01] taught was that you practice it while
[26:03] living in the
[26:05] world a monkey's
[26:08] life may possibly be considered a
[26:11] withdrawal from life from worldly life
[26:14] but meditation absolutely not it's it's
[26:17] the art of finding the Eternal in the
[26:21] midst of in the marketplace the
[26:24] Stillness in the
[26:26] movement to be
[26:29] I forget the exact phrase but to be I
[26:32] think it's in the world but not of the
[26:34] world absolutely that's that's that's
[26:35] the good phrase in the world but not of
[26:37] the world yes I understand utterly
[26:40] practical and it's absolutely not a
[26:42] withdrawal an opting out of all has a
[26:45] completely different understanding I've
[26:47] read many things over the years uh that
[26:51] about monks who spent years meditating
[26:53] in
[26:54] very confined places like a cave or a
[26:57] monry and they come to the city and
[27:00] they're lost yes and what you're saying
[27:03] is that that Stillness that presence
[27:06] it's it's it's in right it's right in
[27:08] the marketplace in the city yes in the
[27:10] most chaotic imaginable situation yes
[27:13] yes God is with us
[27:17] yes I'm going to insist on the story
[27:20] about the ram because I love St come
[27:21] back to that yes so do I but it's one of
[27:24] those wonderful things I've got no
[27:27] explanation for but um at that time one
[27:31] of the great loves of my life are
[27:34] sheep
[27:40] um I could tell you a lot about my
[27:43] understanding of the Lamb of
[27:45] God anyway um at that time I had a quite
[27:49] a considerable flock of sheep about 150
[27:52] sheep and I had five Rams I think and uh
[27:57] one of these Rams was an old Warrior
[27:59] where he through much fighting he'd
[28:01] split his skull and
[28:04] was um old
[28:07] solder
[28:09] um and just before things happened I had
[28:13] to sell move on from my first
[28:16] Farm um and I was sitting at one side of
[28:19] a
[28:20] field not sure if I'd been crying but I
[28:23] was very unhappy about it all losing my
[28:25] beloved man
[28:27] animals and and and these Rams were
[28:30] lying under a hedge on the other side of
[28:31] the field about I suppose 100 yards or
[28:34] so
[28:35] away and and to my my amazement one of
[28:39] these Rams this old Warrior he stood up
[28:42] he left the others slowly and
[28:44] deliberately he walked across the
[28:47] field he laid his head in my
[28:50] lap and just stood
[28:52] there for a a minute or two or
[28:57] three and he turned away I went back and
[29:00] La that day with his
[29:04] companions he brings tears to my eyes to
[29:06] tell
[29:09] you well what do you make of
[29:14] that I make that that extraordinary
[29:17] connection
[29:18] that you had or have with nature which
[29:21] is everyone's potential in a way yeah
[29:25] well maybe that was it anyway I think
[29:28] consider that that one of the greatest
[29:29] honors of my
[29:31] life what could one ask greatest honor
[29:34] of your life yeah
[29:38] wonderful see Russian Heart come brings
[29:41] tears to my eyes yes even if run to a
[29:44] camera
[29:48] sorry
[29:50] well you have a bit of an up and down
[29:52] story in some ways and I'm going to now
[29:55] move on
[29:57] because in your late 40s your life fell
[30:00] apart mhm and you had quite bad
[30:04] depression how did that
[30:07] start
[30:09] a well I had a second Farm then it was
[30:15] a a lovely little farm that's really
[30:18] another story and I I was
[30:20] a I was happy as a farmer I was married
[30:24] by then and had a good
[30:26] wife um that we had many meditation
[30:30] students at that time used to come to
[30:31] the
[30:34] farm I was quite well known as one of
[30:36] the first organic
[30:38] farmers um there was a woman that came
[30:41] to
[30:44] meditate and on one occasion we meditate
[30:47] with closed eyes by the way we were
[30:49] sitting together we just come to
[30:54] Stillness and I saw our two Souls rise
[30:57] from our body
[30:59] and merge as
[31:03] one she was a woman with very open clear
[31:07] eyes and when I looked at her I saw
[31:10] right through to the infinite
[31:14] Beyond so what does that mean what does
[31:17] that mean to the infinite beyond what
[31:19] did you actually
[31:23] see well you got to realize there are
[31:26] two sorts of sight there's the ey of
[31:29] Flesh and there's what's called Insight
[31:32] seeing with the eyes of the
[31:35] heart Insight is always limited I mean
[31:38] fleshly sight is always limited it has a
[31:40] boundary flesh sees
[31:44] flesh but we all have to some extent a
[31:47] sense
[31:49] of even Indescribable beauty or
[31:53] Indescribable peace or something like
[31:55] that
[31:59] what did I see I saw the Indescribable
[32:03] right I saw the infinite
[32:06] Indescribable but it's the realest of
[32:08] the real when you see
[32:10] it
[32:12] and what really tipped me back into
[32:14] tipped me into depression was that I was
[32:17] still a young man a Hot Blooded young
[32:19] man
[32:21] um still you know very much living in my
[32:24] physical body and and my my human
[32:27] emotion
[32:28] how do you reconcile the two there was
[32:32] that spiritual un Union if you like the
[32:34] mystical marriage contrasted with two
[32:39] people living lives both with their own
[32:42] marriages their homes their jobs yes
[32:44] that were not that were separate how do
[32:47] you reconcile
[32:50] Unity with
[32:52] separation um well I couldn't at that
[32:56] time it was beyond my my ability my
[32:59] experience I couldn't go back into that
[33:02] old
[33:04] life of course I couldn't escape it
[33:07] either really I was sort of imprisoned
[33:09] in it so it was an experience that took
[33:13] you out yes of your world that's right I
[33:17] suppose a modern jargon might say it
[33:20] blew my mind I'm not sure if that's
[33:22] accurate or not it's not a phrase I
[33:24] normally use very accurate it blew your
[33:27] mind but
[33:29] um you know I I went back home you know
[33:33] and there was my dear wife and and but
[33:37] some it was all too small I couldn't
[33:38] sort of I'd been shown
[33:42] something well anyway the gist of it was
[33:44] it threw me into a turmoil of emotions
[33:47] and and uh and I left I I I had to
[33:51] really break away so I left you had to
[33:52] leave your marriage I left my farm I
[33:54] left my home wow I I I uh I had a little
[33:59] one of the early motor Caravans in that
[34:01] time and I drifted around for some years
[34:04] homeless jobless Loveless and
[34:07] alone and um it was a a wretched time of
[34:11] life I just picked fruit I did what I
[34:15] could but you'd had the you'd had that
[34:18] experience so that given you a reference
[34:21] point it g opening because how do how
[34:24] can one access it well meditation of
[34:28] course does just that cuz in meditation
[34:32] you if I can give you a demonstration
[34:35] the beautiful demonstration of
[34:37] meditation I hope the camera can see my
[34:39] hands is just that you see it's just an
[34:43] opening it's letting go that's right
[34:46] letting go now this is how we live
[34:48] forgetting forgetful of to hold on of
[34:51] the one we hold on we hold on to our
[34:54] personal life and so we're imprisoned
[34:57] Within our ego which is our sense of
[35:00] Separation yes and in meditation it
[35:04] starts very gently at first so it's not
[35:06] frightening or anything but very gently
[35:08] it sort of helps you to do that yeah now
[35:12] when you let go you discover that you're
[35:14] not actually separate at all you're
[35:17] United you're in that which is
[35:22] undivided Indescribable but undivided
[35:25] there's not two at all there's just one
[35:29] one
[35:31] love one person
[35:34] singular Adam in the paradise was
[35:36] singular
[35:38] one one I
[35:41] am now that's what I'd been shown in
[35:44] this
[35:45] dramatic episode with this
[35:48] woman the
[35:50] Oneness um well you could say that then
[35:55] the work the real work began
[35:58] because the two polarities had been
[36:00] clearly identified to me Al I in I was
[36:05] too muddled really to put it as clearly
[36:07] as I'm saying to you now but that's what
[36:09] gradually dawned on
[36:12] me at one time the mot to Caravan I went
[36:14] and spent a winter in Spain alone of
[36:17] course and I spent hour after hour after
[36:20] hour just meditating I I I moved from
[36:23] just doing the standard half hour
[36:25] morning and night and meditation
[36:31] came
[36:33] salvation because in Salvation you're
[36:36] taken out of this
[36:38] imprisonment and you're shown what
[36:46] real you you're you're saved from
[36:49] drowning in this world just like St
[36:51] Peter was walking on water he was
[36:53] drowning in the
[36:54] world there was Jesus free beside him
[36:59] Peter was drowning he reached he said
[37:01] help
[37:02] me Jesus said what were you frightened
[37:05] about what were you drowning for have
[37:08] faith have faith that's what it's all
[37:12] about and you never stopped having faith
[37:15] even though it was a difficult time I
[37:17] don't think I ever did because I had
[37:20] this wonderful practice and this
[37:22] practice is such a wonderful way of
[37:24] putting it into
[37:26] practice so twice every day without fail
[37:31] and for increasingly lengths of time I
[37:34] was
[37:36] just
[37:38] surrendering to
[37:40] that total
[37:43] presence and
[37:45] to and to that love that has no end to
[37:48] that love that never says
[37:51] no to Pure total
[37:55] love which is which I'd seen in her eyes
[37:58] as you see and yet the body of course
[38:01] said in the way it wasn't to do with her
[38:04] no well she was a portal somehow just
[38:08] well the body was a portal because that
[38:09] of course isn't really what we are and
[38:12] this is the Great Discovery that man is
[38:15] not limited to the flesh the flesh as
[38:17] the Bible tells us is profit of nothing
[38:20] yes the flesh is just is
[38:24] just look anything that dies
[38:28] mortality the whole world that comes to
[38:30] pass is not what we are man is eternal
[38:38] being okay I'm going to go back to your
[38:41] story a little bit because I think it's
[38:44] important just to for people to see that
[38:47] your path wasn't always smooth it had up
[38:49] and downs and how and how you how you
[38:52] dealt with the downs I think is so
[38:55] important and people somehow yes they
[38:57] get stuck on having the highs of the as
[39:00] they see and the
[39:02] experiences practicalities yes of course
[39:04] when it's disciplined pulls you through
[39:07] you just got to keep on practicing
[39:09] practice PR in the motor home but you
[39:12] kept the discipline of the meditation
[39:13] meditation yes but in a way it isn't
[39:16] difficult because it it's it's a way in
[39:18] a way it's like and it's been described
[39:21] as a trail of grains of sugar you
[39:24] know it's
[39:28] you follow it
[39:30] because it lead it's always leading you
[39:33] from better to better to better to
[39:36] better from better to better to better
[39:39] it's it's described as a trail of sugar
[39:41] you see leading to the Sugar Mountain
[39:44] which is of course the kingdom of God
[39:46] yeah but unfortunately in our
[39:49] society there's so many false trails
[39:53] that try and take you better to better
[39:55] to better and all you end up is with
[39:58] unhealthy body and a big overdraft and
[40:01] credit card bills and well that's why
[40:05] it's
[40:07] it's you know one of the I think one of
[40:10] the impediment one of the thing that
[40:11] stops US setting out on the spiritual
[40:14] life is that we're not sufficiently
[40:16] unhappy we're too content with this sort
[40:19] of compromise with life with all the
[40:22] little you
[40:23] know sandwich bars and bubles that life
[40:27] you know offers to us the comfort of a
[40:29] teddy
[40:30] bear um and you know for some people
[40:33] that's not good enough you want more you
[40:35] want the real thing I guess I was one of
[40:38] those people yes but you also had what I
[40:41] would call The Taste not the taste is
[40:43] it's not strong enough word but you had
[40:46] Visions in one way you had big big Clues
[40:49] and not everyone has that well yes
[40:51] that's also true and and and am I not
[40:56] blessed there is a blessing in that
[40:58] you're absolutely right abely you know
[41:00] the say the the Bible tells us we are
[41:02] saved by grace and what is Grace it's
[41:06] it's something that comes unseen unknown
[41:09] you know it's like memory where does
[41:10] memory come from yes it just comes
[41:13] doesn't it I think what we're going to
[41:15] do is we're going to do a part two in
[41:16] this interview because we have about 10
[41:19] minutes left and I'm only so we'll keep
[41:21] going and they'll be a part two so um
[41:26] what happened next was in 1988 you went
[41:30] to Africa for a time yes I I was uh I
[41:34] was offered a job out in
[41:37] Africa South Africa I went out there the
[41:41] job didn't work out so uh so after some
[41:45] time
[41:46] um I hired a little little car and uh I
[41:50] just drove
[41:52] off um I didn't really have a plan I I
[41:55] didn't even have a proper map but I just
[41:57] followed the road and it all unfolded in
[42:00] front of
[42:02] me um I slept in the back of the car and
[42:07] or out on the out on the ground under
[42:10] the
[42:11] stars
[42:13] um oh I I absolutely loved it the space
[42:17] glorious space and uh I you know I
[42:21] I I I uh I never went to any big towns
[42:25] the little ones I just bought I had to
[42:28] buy and got out into the open again I
[42:31] just found the big empty spaces on the
[42:33] map and I went there and you come across
[42:36] in the book that it comes across that
[42:38] you're always drawn as you say to wide
[42:40] open preferably wild places yes and but
[42:45] for that time but for the wind there was
[42:48] utter silences that youve never known
[42:50] before yes there's no place for your
[42:52] depression anymore no I suppose I no out
[42:56] there I think I I was so thrilled by it
[42:59] so uh utter silence yeah so uh I just
[43:04] couldn't get enough of space and silence
[43:06] I've always loved space yes space and
[43:08] silence they they're just natural to me
[43:10] I belong there that's what I feel at
[43:13] home but it seems to me that it's kind
[43:16] of what you've told us so far about your
[43:18] life it's like there's almost this dance
[43:22] of space and it's
[43:23] the you're drawn to the space on the
[43:26] outside
[43:28] you recognize the real space is primary
[43:32] on the inside M and you're in Africa and
[43:36] you're still of course
[43:40] completely attracted to the Stillness of
[43:42] the space nothing around for miles and
[43:45] miles and miles yeah I I love absolutely
[43:48] love that when I was a boy at school my
[43:51] favorite picture was of a cowboy riding
[43:54] up to the crest of a hill with the
[43:55] caption Don't Fence Me
[43:58] in I loved that phrase and Africa was oh
[44:03] it was in that
[44:04] sense
[44:07] um yes and then I went on I was in the
[44:10] Kalahari in the namibian desert and and
[44:13] that uh oh I just loved it it I always
[44:18] it always sort of seemed to me obvious
[44:19] why the early the Early Christians you
[44:22] know why men of prayer went to the
[44:24] desert and then I experienced it for
[44:25] myself and and it it's it's just all so
[44:29] obvious there it's all just before you
[44:32] the
[44:33] infinite and you nothing you you're just
[44:36] taken into the immensity of of what's
[44:39] there because you talk in the book about
[44:41] there when you're in Africa the absence
[44:43] of subject object relationships yes yes
[44:46] yes all that it's not you and the other
[44:49] no it's just the one that's all all that
[44:51] dies away all the personality is just
[44:53] nothing yes yeah the the me the John
[44:56] Butler is it's just you forget about it
[44:59] it's just nothing yeah yeah and of
[45:03] course you came back from Africa yes to
[45:07] England what happened then you could
[45:10] imagine just the opposite getting back
[45:13] to
[45:14] to um well I had to get back into JN
[45:18] Butler again or what the world
[45:21] considered that to be um and you found
[45:23] it tough again didn't you well I I I
[45:28] you know I'd lost my job as a farmer I I
[45:31] I had to I was desperate to find some
[45:33] sort of work and
[45:36] um what on Earth could I do I I I
[45:41] I I wrote a CV at that
[45:44] time and uh I remember more or less what
[45:47] I wrote I
[45:50] wrote I wrote something about I knew
[45:53] something about Freedom therefore I
[45:54] could help others to
[45:56] Freedom um
[46:02] and of course freedom is is love love is
[46:05] freedom the two are the really the same
[46:07] thing spiritually
[46:09] speaking and
[46:11] uh if someone could give me a channel
[46:14] for for my love I'd give my
[46:18] all that was what I was looking for and
[46:20] of
[46:21] course who answered my CV you can guess
[46:25] nobody I was looking for for I was I was
[46:28] looking for for freedom in the world of
[46:32] bondage and but You' also had the
[46:36] realizations before when you were in
[46:38] London and you saw the garbage is
[46:41] beautiful and the underground it's
[46:43] somehow the you've had the experiences
[46:47] but
[46:49] something it is hard isn't it and I'm
[46:51] just pointing out that you you you had
[46:54] had these reference points but you you
[46:58] you have this openness in Africa this
[47:00] this
[47:02] Stillness John Butler's almost
[47:04] disappeared yes and you get back to
[47:06] England and the reality of day-to-day
[47:09] life hits you again yes yes yes well I
[47:13] suppose I hadn't I see I was
[47:17] still we're such spiritual infants you
[47:22] know even now as an old man I'm still a
[47:26] spiritual child true child it's a long
[47:29] journey yes and and one's learning all
[47:32] the time you learn something every day
[47:35] and at that time I was still grappling
[47:38] with questions that I had that I that
[47:41] now I no longer have these problems but
[47:45] at that time I
[47:46] did
[47:51] um you see just just to kind of I I just
[47:54] wanted to people to understand where
[47:56] where you really were you kind of you
[47:58] said again you fell into personal desire
[48:01] you had to deal with what you call the
[48:03] cancerous root of egoism by exposing it
[48:08] bit by bit how did you expose it bit by
[48:10] bit that cancerous root of egoism yes
[48:12] that's a good
[48:14] phrase um how did I deal with it well
[48:19] how
[48:23] indeed I'm not sure that we can deal
[48:27] with with it cuz you see we I am the ego
[48:30] so it's the ego trying to deal with the
[48:32] ego yes it's the pot calling the kettle
[48:38] black the blind leading the
[48:41] blind we are saved by
[48:44] grace well I
[48:48] meditated
[48:51] um at that time
[48:58] I met a
[49:01] teacher a young
[49:03] man and I looked in his eyes and I had
[49:06] that same experience of seeing the
[49:08] infinite Beyond you have with that woman
[49:10] Freedom
[49:12] yes and I followed him out to America
[49:16] yes to San
[49:20] Francisco I was that desperate I knew
[49:23] that's what I wanted I didn't want
[49:24] anything
[49:26] else and and so I as it were jumped off
[49:29] the precipice to
[49:32] him and while I was in America after I'd
[49:35] been with him a few days I remember
[49:37] there was a big meeting and he looked at
[49:40] me and
[49:42] uh and he pointed out my pride my
[49:47] arrogance and my
[49:50] egoism which was completely crushed
[49:53] me I was exposed in this
[49:58] room of supp a couple hundred of
[50:01] people and ieat that was very that was
[50:04] very faint you exposed in front of I
[50:07] suppose two or 300 people there was
[50:09] other people
[50:10] around and I felt within me a monstrous
[50:14] almost like a
[50:17] worm
[50:19] and I didn't know what to do with it at
[50:21] all I was absolutely
[50:23] terrified and I fled where did I flee to
[50:27] I fled Into the
[50:28] Wilderness I I I got a car and I just
[50:31] drove into the
[50:34] desert and I thought I was going mad at
[50:36] that time I had this such a sense of
[50:39] evil within
[50:40] me I didn't know how to deal with it at
[50:43] all I meditated but somehow even
[50:46] meditation didn't deal with
[50:49] it and fearing I was really going to
[50:52] lose my lose lose my wits I took a job
[50:55] as a cook in a in a in a funny little uh
[50:58] uh Motel gas station and I worked in the
[51:02] kitchen
[51:04] there um frying eggs and
[51:08] things you want me to go
[51:11] on
[51:13] and this was in the Mojave Desert which
[51:15] is just on the border of
[51:18] Arizona um surrounded by a desert
[51:20] country one day I I after work I walked
[51:23] up side of the
[51:25] valley there was this little Motel was a
[51:28] little spot down in the bottom of the
[51:29] valley I sat on a rock and I think I I I
[51:33] put my head in my hands and I think I
[51:35] just I just was finished
[51:38] then and someone came and Stood Beside
[51:41] Me I didn't see anybody I didn't hear
[51:46] anybody no no man was involved at all
[51:50] but I felt there was a a presence beside
[51:53] me and I I I said I I I I spoke it was
[51:57] Jesus I've never doubted it it was
[52:00] nothing to do with the church nothing to
[52:02] do with religion at
[52:05] all and
[52:08] uh I didn't really notice any different
[52:11] depression didn't end but I wrote a poem
[52:14] that's right depression didn't end but
[52:16] from then on I had a friend
[52:19] H I certainly didn't have any human
[52:21] friend at that time
[52:23] yes and uh
[52:27] and then a few months more months passed
[52:29] and I I ended this job with a pocket
[52:32] full of money so once more I hired a car
[52:34] and had a wonderful time exploring the
[52:37] western states the cowboy country and
[52:39] more animals more beloved
[52:41] Prairie then I came home like and once
[52:45] again back in this awful abyss of not
[52:47] knowing what to do I just want to so we
[52:50] have we have to finish let's call this
[52:52] part wide in a couple of minutes
[52:54] but so what the break true was for you
[52:58] was the appearance of what you felt
[53:01] might have been could be Jesus it it was
[53:05] about having a companion a friend a
[53:08] support a guide is that am I using the
[53:11] right words here I think you're making
[53:12] too much of it um okay I I I I wouldn't
[53:15] have I wouldn't use any of those words
[53:18] it was it was less defined it was very
[53:22] undefined um
[53:30] soon after I got back I had some some
[53:32] friends then that did healing
[53:34] and and I remember they prayed over me
[53:38] and it was extraordinary I found my felt
[53:40] myself screaming I was thrown to the
[53:43] ground and something was expelled some
[53:45] revolting thing came out of my mouth it
[53:49] opened my mouth so wide that my mouth
[53:53] split but what came out I never saw
[53:56] anything
[53:59] I suppose one idea expelled by
[54:07] another and just before that happened
[54:10] actually I'd been um i' gone into a job
[54:14] center and I was invited to an open day
[54:18] and I was invited to go to Nottingham
[54:22] University to study Russian as a very
[54:24] mature
[54:25] student okay we're going to stop there
[54:28] because that's a great start for part
[54:30] two so thank you very much for doing
[54:33] part one thank you everyone for watching
[54:36] part one here with uh with
[54:40] John and we'll see you again for part
[54:55] two for