Transcript
[0:00] Because the microbiome sort of like tunes our
body, all these different systems, it wasn't
[0:05] designed to reverse disease.
[0:07] We're trying to engineer it to do that.
[0:09] Don't wait till you have diabetes before you
stop...
[0:12] Before you start taking, you know, your your
gut health seriously, or don't wait till you
[0:15] have any condition.
[0:17] There are things you can do today to improve
your gut health, to improve your microbiome
[0:21] health.
[0:21] And the payoff is long term is your health in
the decades that are still ahead of you.
[0:28] Welcome to the podcast.
[0:29] It's wonderful to have you, Tarkis, and I've
been a follower of your work and really excited
[0:34] to dive into how the gut plays such a role in
our overall health, particularly in our brain
[0:40] health, which we're gonna get into today.
[0:41] So thanks for being on the podcast.
[0:42] Thanks for having Mark, and I as well have
followed your work, and I'm happy to be here.
[0:46] Well, thank you.
[0:46] So, you know you know, I wanna zoom out for a
second and and say, you know, I've been on the
[0:50] front lines treating patients for forty years,
and you you are an academic physician from none
[0:55] of the esteemed institutions like Harvard and
Caltech and have really done tremendous
[1:01] research in pioneering our understanding of the
microbiome, its role in health, and
[1:04] particularly in the gut brain axis and how some
conditions like Parkinson's and autism may be
[1:09] connected in part to what's happening in our
gut and our microbiome.
[1:13] And I, you know, I've come at this from the
opposite direction, is seeing patients, you
[1:17] know, being in the trenches and dealing with
real problems that people are facing every day.
[1:21] And it's just striking to me how much the gut
and the microbiome play a role in our overall
[1:25] health.
[1:26] And this is being, you know, born out across
medicine, whether it's cardiovascular disease
[1:29] or cancer or metabolic health or autoimmune
diseases or allergic disorders.
[1:35] And of course, know, conditions that, know, you
particularly study like autism and Parkinson's,
[1:39] and I would even sort of say even other
neurologic conditions.
[1:42] Kind of our understanding is kind of maturing
and it's clear that there's a there there.
[1:46] That there's something cooking in the gut that
is not just about having this inert pile of
[1:51] poop in there that's not doing anything, but
it's dynamically interacting with us all the
[1:55] time.
[1:55] You know, I I would remember sitting on a panel
with Stan Hazen at Cleveland Clinic who's
[2:00] pioneered the work around the microbiome and
cardiovascular disease.
[2:03] And I said, Stan, what percent of the
metabolites in human blood come from the
[2:08] microbiome?
[2:09] And he was like, I don't know, but I think
maybe a third to a half.
[2:13] I would like to get your take on that.
[2:14] I'm sure some of the evidence I've seen as
well, that half of the small molecules floating
[2:19] around our blood are either made by a bacteria
or, you know, the the precursors are made by a
[2:24] bacteria, gut bacteria.
[2:25] Yeah.
[2:25] That's an astounding concept.
[2:27] Like, not
[2:28] only,
[2:28] you know, do we have, you know, about or...
[2:31] And as many or more bacterial cells in us than
our own cells and a 100 times as much bacterial
[2:35] DNA than our own DNA.
[2:36] But up to a third to a half of all the things
floating around our blood that are molecules
[2:40] interacting with our biology every second come
from the microbiome or are derived from
[2:45] metabolites from the microbiome.
[2:47] And and I I I saw this clinically practicing
medicine treating patients with autism or
[2:52] people with Parkinson's or people with, you
know, autoimmune diseases or whatever it was.
[2:57] And depression or mood disorders, behavioral
disorders, ADHD, all all of the kinds of things
[3:01] that we would see in our practice.
[3:03] And modifying the microbiome by changing diet,
by changing the microbes in there through herbs
[3:09] or drugs, We were able to see using probiotics
or other things which are still not...
[3:14] We're studying well enough.
[3:15] But we we see these clinical changes that were
quite remarkable.
[3:18] And, you know, and and looking over your
research, it's really clear that you're you're
[3:21] you're seeing the same kind of signals.
[3:23] You're seeing that there's...
[3:24] Is is is not just sort of, you know, some of
the work you've done, you know, showing that
[3:29] it's not just, that, you know, the microbes are
sort of incidentally involved, but they're
[3:32] they're actually may be causing involved.
[3:34] Like, I I would love to sort of have you sort
of sort of dive in a little bit of the
[3:39] beginning of your research.
[3:40] How you came to understand the microbiome
played a role and kind of what got you excited
[3:44] about this and and what you've sort of learned
about at the high level around the gut brain
[3:48] axis and this whole communication between the
gut and the brain, including, you know, our
[3:52] nervous system, our immune system, the
microbial metabolites, hormones, all these
[3:57] things that start to change as we change the
microbiome.
[4:00] Yeah.
[4:00] I think just embedded in your question is is
evidence that the microbiome affects so many of
[4:06] our...
[4:07] Of the organ systems in our bodies.
[4:09] Right?
[4:10] And it's not just, you know, the most obvious
ones like the immune system.
[4:14] When we think about the immune system, we think
about how we fight off bacteria, infectious
[4:19] agents, you know, viruses, fungi, have you,
protozoan infections.
[4:25] But, really, the microbiome impacts our
metabolic system, our endocrine system, our
[4:29] nervous system, and and this has huge effects
on on many aspects of our physiology.
[4:35] And so we became interested in in the gut brain
connection largely because of of, you know, at
[4:40] the time, again, close to twenty years ago,
anecdotal evidence showing that classical
[4:45] neurological conditions, at least conditions
viewed as neurological conditions, diseases, if
[4:50] you will, have a GI component, have a gut
component.
[4:53] So I think it's well documented, perhaps maybe
more on Parkinson's than other other cases,
[5:00] that, you know, the vast majority of
individuals who are diagnosed with Parkinson's
[5:03] have constipation.
[5:04] They show constipation years, if not decades,
before their their movement disorder, the the
[5:09] thing that they were diagnosed with.
[5:11] Right?
[5:11] The the Parkinson's.
[5:13] And so, you know, that was pretty curious.
[5:15] Right?
[5:16] You know, like, why is this brain disorder, you
know, manifest in many individuals as GI
[5:21] symptoms?
[5:22] It's true in autism.
[5:23] I think the data is a little bit more
fragmented, and the phenotypes aren't as clear
[5:28] in autism as they are in Parkinson's.
[5:30] But clearly, many children with autism have
some form of gastrointestinal symptom, whether
[5:36] it's abdominal pain, alternating constipation,
diarrhea, and what have you.
[5:41] And to a microbiologist like me, this became
quite interesting.
[5:44] It was an interesting observation is that, you
know, a, what is the role of the microbiome in
[5:52] in these these disorders?
[5:53] We're still trying to figure that out.
[5:55] I don't think there's there's, you know, one
answer.
[5:57] I don't think there will ever be one answer,
but we're we're trying to get to some of the
[6:00] the clues that help us understand, you know,
how microbes shape these outcomes.
[6:06] Right?
[6:07] And just what you alluded to
[6:08] is,
[6:09] you
[6:09] know,
[6:09] what does that communication look like?
[6:11] How do microbes that live in our gut, the
microbes aren't in our brain?
[6:14] Right?
[6:15] In our, you know, our colon mostly, but in our
small intestine as well.
[6:19] How do they signal to the brain?
[6:20] How do they send their their cues, if you will?
[6:23] Right?
[6:23] Both bad and good.
[6:25] That results in behavioral changes, mood
disorders, even death of neurons.
[6:31] As as traumatic a phenotype in the brain as one
can imagine, like nerve cells actually.
[6:36] Wow.
[6:36] Again, that's...
[6:37] That was really very fascinating for me and and
very understudied twenty years ago.
[6:44] I I would argue it's still quite understudied
now.
[6:46] Right?
[6:47] And so we looked at these problems from the
lens of the microbe.
[6:51] Right?
[6:52] And tried to understand what are the organisms
that are at play in these different conditions,
[6:57] what are the signals that they're sending, what
are the the the, you know, human cells that are
[7:02] receiving those signals, and then how do they
mediate various different outcomes?
[7:07] Again, changes in behavior, you know, movement
disorders, cognitive impairments, what have
[7:14] you.
[7:15] I think we made some headway.
[7:16] I think we understand a few of those signals,
but the microbiome is not one thing.
[7:20] It is many many things, many hundreds, if not
thousands of organisms and molecules.
[7:26] So we have a long way to think.
[7:27] But I think there's, you know, very little
argument in my mind that at least in animal
[7:33] models that there is a causal role for the
microbiome in these, you know, classical brain
[7:40] disorders.
[7:41] Right?
[7:41] And we know that because we can just manipulate
the microbiome of animals in ways that we just
[7:47] simply can't do.
[7:48] It's not ethical or feasible to do on people.
[7:50] And and then get, you know, very solid,
reproducible, rigorous outcomes.
[7:57] And so whether or not to what degree that
translates to humans, I think...
[8:02] Feel that...
[8:02] And we are still trying to figure that out
because, again, we just can't do the invasive
[8:07] experiments in humans that we can in animal
models.
[8:10] I think that has to be the next step, right, is
to try to understand to what degree the gut or,
[8:17] in our particular case, the microbiome in the
gut is signaling to the brain.
[8:21] Because, you know, I think the upside is
potentially enormous, right, is if we can help
[8:28] people with classical neurological outcomes,
you know, brain disorders, if you will, by
[8:33] treating their gut.
[8:34] Right?
[8:34] And I think this is one of the sort of the the
north stars of our research is Mhmm.
[8:39] We don't try to get drugs into the brain.
[8:42] It's very hard.
[8:42] I mean, that's, I think, the classical
approach.
[8:45] Right?
[8:46] We just try to, you know, manipulate what we
can, what's accessible to us.
[8:49] That's that's in the gut, and then the body
does the rest in terms of communicating that
[8:53] signal to the brain.
[8:54] It's so important what you just said, that the
signaling from the gut happens through a lot of
[8:59] different mechanisms.
[9:01] That's right.
[9:02] And you kind of alluded to a few of them.
[9:04] It can be direct microbial metabolites that
maybe bind to different receptors and had
[9:09] different effects.
[9:10] It can be through inflammatory signaling or
hormonal signaling.
[9:15] The nervous in the...
[9:16] That communicates to the nervous system of our
brain through the vagus nerve, spinal nerves,
[9:21] neuronal connections.
[9:22] Yeah.
[9:23] We we've kind of...
[9:23] That that whole second brain thing, we we've...
[9:25] Think I we've known about for a while, and I
think it's such an important piece of this.
[9:28] So I I didn't mean to leave that out, but but
it's these other pieces that are sort of new in
[9:33] in thinking.
[9:33] Right?
[9:34] Okay.
[9:34] Well, we know that the nervous system, the gun,
the nerves in the brain, we we can map them
[9:38] out.
[9:38] They're well understood in traditional
medicine.
[9:40] But the idea that there's some strange
metabolites from your microbiome that are
[9:44] changing your biology in ways that create
demonstrable disease, it's not something the
[9:48] average doctor actually even thinks about.
[9:50] Right.
[9:50] And, you know, we'll take that that data that
we talked about a couple minutes ago of, you
[9:54] know, what percentage of the molecules in our
blood are of microbial origin.
[9:59] I can't quote you a number, but, you know,
there are a large number of molecules in our
[10:04] brain that come from our gut microbiomes.
[10:07] Right?
[10:07] And we certainly know this in animals because,
again, we can just do do those refined
[10:11] experiments.
[10:13] But through extrapolation, through experiments
like, you know, looking at postmortem tissues
[10:17] or c...
[10:18] You know, or CSF, I think there are very strong
clues that...
[10:22] And Stan's work is some of this, Stan Hayton,
who you mentioned, you know, contribute to some
[10:26] of this, is that there are microbe molecules
that float around our brain.
[10:30] But what would they do?
[10:31] And the vast majority of which, you know, we
don't even know what they are, let alone what
[10:34] they're doing.
[10:34] So saying for brains this may not be a a wrong
statement.
[10:39] Yeah.
[10:40] I think it's kind of hard.
[10:41] I I I I remember Rudy Tansey talking about this
that there are discoveries in Alzheimer's
[10:46] brains, and he's one of the leading Alzheimer's
researchers in the world at Harvard who who who
[10:51] has described this phenomena of microbial
compounds in the brain or even microbes in the
[10:56] brain that potentially come from the gut.
[10:58] And and it's such a it's such a hard leap to
think about how does that happen because, you
[11:02] know, we think about the gut as this tube.
[11:04] It's impermeable except for nutrients, and yet
that's not necessarily true.
[11:09] I mean, your work particularly in the autism
models have been fascinating around how, you
[11:12] know, you see increases in gut permeability.
[11:15] You see increases in immune signaling.
[11:17] You see, you know, other metabolites
potentially having effects, particularly, you
[11:23] know, some of the metabolites that come from
the microbiome having effect in an adverse way
[11:26] on brains and kids like in autism.
[11:29] Can you talk more about how how sort of that
work came about and what what you learned?
[11:34] Our our work is grounded in in in animal
models, particularly mouse models.
[11:39] And so I have to say, there are caveats,
obviously, to animal models.
[11:43] They're not they're not humans, but we try to
reproduce the human condition to the best of
[11:47] our abilities.
[11:49] This work started many years ago with a
collaborator, Paul Patterson, who was here at
[11:53] Caltech.
[11:53] Paul was quite interested in the role of the
environment on behavior.
[12:00] And I'll fast forward, you know, hopefully, I'm
not doing a disservice to the decades of work
[12:04] that he did, but I'll just fast forward to to
how he got involved, is he had looked at
[12:09] epidemiologic data showing that an infection
during pregnancy resulted in an increased risk
[12:15] of that child having autism.
[12:17] He modeled this in mice, essentially gave
pregnant mice the flu, and then the animals had
[12:21] not just behavioral disorders, which he had
characterized and continued to characterize.
[12:25] But when we started working with him, we looked
at the gut, and we found the permeability that
[12:29] that you mentioned, the inflammation in the gut
that you mentioned and and other GI symptoms,
[12:34] and we found changes in microbiome.
[12:35] And we thought to ourselves, this this is
probably more than just a coincidence because
[12:39] of that emerging literature in people that the
gut was involved in in in autism.
[12:45] And so we started digging.
[12:46] We went into, you know, looking at immune...
[12:50] The immune side, you know, and I think there's
still a lot to be done in other people that are
[12:53] that are doing that in terms of profiling what
are those immunologic changes.
[12:57] We got really interested in in, as you
mentioned, metabolites, the small molecules.
[13:01] And that...
[13:02] And again, we're just explorers.
[13:04] Right?
[13:04] So we go, we we look for things, and and when
something looks interesting, we we we dive in
[13:09] and try to follow those leads to try to
understand really mechanisms of action.
[13:14] Like, really, what are not just what's there,
but what what are what are those molecules
[13:18] doing?
[13:20] And so we did something called a metabolomic
screen, which basically is a profile of
[13:24] molecules, right, in in these animals.
[13:27] And we're comparing the animals that had the
behavioral conditions, behavioral deviations,
[13:33] if you will, similar to those that didn't.
[13:35] And we found high levels of a particular class
of molecules.
[13:40] These are small phenolic molecules that look
like amino... They come from
[13:43] They come from amino acids, kinda look like
amino acids.
[13:46] Reminiscent...
[13:47] They're not neurotransmitters.
[13:48] They're sort of reminiscent of
neurotransmitters.
[13:50] And one of the molecules that we discovered
that was highly elevated in the mice that
[13:54] showed behavioral symptoms was molecule called
four ethylphenolsulfate.
[13:59] I won't go into the details of it, but just as
one example, this molecule was 40 fold elevated
[14:05] in the mice that had behavioral changes.
[14:10] And then when we looked in the literature, the
molecule was almost identical to a molecule
[14:16] that had been shown to be elevated in human
autism, in the urine of human autism.
[14:20] And we thought to ourselves, and this this
can't just be a coincidence.
[14:23] Right?
[14:23] That the the molecule that stands out in our
animal dataset is a molecule almost identical
[14:29] to one that's that's elevated in people.
[14:31] And, again, you know, from a scientist
perspective, that was enough for us to put our
[14:35] our our resource and effort into trying to
understand what that molecule is.
[14:39] And I'm just using this molecule as one test
case to really give us an example of how how
[14:44] these connections work, these gut brain
connections work.
[14:47] And so over the years, we, you know, through...
[14:50] You know, with help from lots of collaborators,
found the bacteria, the bacterial genes that
[14:55] produce these these...
[14:56] You know, this molecule and this this class of
molecules.
[14:59] And they started asking ourselves, alright.
[15:02] Are they just there, or are they doing
something?
[15:04] Right?
[15:05] So then we set up these experimental systems
where we can, you know, you know, control the
[15:09] levels of production of of for ethyl sulfate
and related molecules in the gut, and then we
[15:15] can behavior test those animals.
[15:16] Right?
[15:17] And so this is now sort of the...
[15:19] You know, again, it doesn't rise to level of
causality, but I'd say contribution to
[15:23] behavioral deficits.
[15:25] And we showed that if we l...
[15:26] Again, de novo discovered this molecule, but if
we then, you know, artificially elevate the
[15:32] levels of the molecule in in mice, because,
again, we can engineer bacteria to produce
[15:37] those molecules, those mice had very potent
signs of of anxiety, but they also had speech
[15:47] issues or or or changes changes in social
behavior, social changes in repetitive
[15:52] behavior.
[15:53] And those are conditions.
[15:54] Again, there's no...
[15:55] Mice don't get off.
[15:56] And what language do mice speak?
[15:59] You you can just drop off them with these
ultrasonic microphones.
[16:03] Right?
[16:03] And so so you don't know what they're saying,
you know, or trying to decode them.
[16:08] If you've
[16:08] been listening to this podcast for a while, you
probably heard me talk about seed.
[16:12] The probiotic category is full of big promises
and not always a lot of proof to back them up,
[16:18] but d s o one is different.
[16:19] It's the number one digestive health probiotic,
and when you look at the science behind it,
[16:23] it's easy to understand why.
[16:25] There are three things to set it apart.
[16:27] First, it contains 24 unique probiotic strains
to support the diversity of your gut
[16:31] microbiome.
[16:32] Second, is capsule in capsule technology help
protect those strains through digestion to
[16:37] reach the colon where most other probiotics
just die in your stomach acid.
[16:41] And third, d s o one has been clinically
studied and is shown to reduce bloating,
[16:45] alleviate gas, and improve regularity.
[16:48] It's not just marketing.
[16:49] That's real clinical evidence.
[16:51] And that level of scientific rigor, it's
exactly what led me to join Seed's clinical
[16:54] board and why I continue to recommend DSO one
and take it myself even after all these years.
[17:00] Go to seed.com/hyman and use the code 25 Hyman
to get 25% off your first month.
[17:05] That's sed.com/hyman and use the code 25 Hyman.
[17:10] Your body is not the same in January as it is
in July.
[17:13] Less light, colder mornings, more demand on
your immune system, and the two things you need
[17:18] most in the winter are the two things the
modern diet is worse at delivering, omega
[17:22] threes and vitamin d.
[17:24] That's another reason why I eat Zetopia.
[17:26] Their food is one of the few foods that gives
me both at once.
[17:29] My favorite is their Atlantic salmon.
[17:31] It's delicious, and one serving carries about
as much EPA and DHA omega threes as two
[17:37] standard fish oil capsules, which is why I keep
my freezer stocked with Zootopia throughout the
[17:41] winter.
[17:41] They test each of their suppliers via third
party labs for mercury and
[17:45] microplastics, and their seafood arrives, fast
[17:48] frozen, delivered to my door.
[17:49] So a great dinner is always within reach rather
than a trip to the store in the dark.
[17:54] Get your first box at seatopia.fish/hymen and
use the code hymen for free shipping.
[18:00] There's speech...
[18:01] There's sound patterns.
[18:02] Yeah.
[18:02] I get it.
[18:02] I'm just teasing.
[18:03] There are stereotypical vocalizations that
animals make, and they do this in particular.
[18:08] Just to go go into a little bit of detail,
because I do think it's interesting, but...
[18:13] Is that, you know, in a in a courtship paradigm
or in an aggression paradigm, you put animals
[18:20] into those into those contexts, then they
vocalize.
[18:23] Right?
[18:23] And so you can...
[18:24] It's such an induced vocalization and then see
how different are different groups of animals
[18:29] in their speech patterns, if you will.
[18:31] Right?
[18:32] And so, again, they don't...
[18:33] They speak mouse, as you said.
[18:35] But but, again, we can see, you know, are there
changes from baseline?
[18:39] Right?
[18:39] And so, again, I also wanna emphasize, you
know, you know, there is no mouse model of
[18:44] autism.
[18:45] Mice don't get autism.
[18:46] Right?
[18:46] But we can model certain behavior.
[18:48] Their behavioral correlates, like, their
behavioral correlates of autism in mice, and
[18:52] and you see those rise when this level of, four
ethylphenol sulfate rises.
[18:58] And how is that not causal?
[19:01] If you if you if you kind of like have an
normally behaving mouse Yeah.
[19:05] You give it this this somehow induced its
levels of production of this this molecule, and
[19:11] then it induces these behavioral changes.
[19:13] And then you dial it back and they go away.
[19:16] How is that not causal?
[19:17] We don't know what's actually elevating those
levels in people.
[19:20] Right?
[19:20] And so why why do people have high levels of
four ethyl sulfate, which we then showed in the
[19:26] subsequent papers?
[19:27] So, again, once we found this in mice, then we
looked in in human tissue, feces, and serum,
[19:31] and we found that elevation.
[19:33] That primary change, we don't know.
[19:35] Right?
[19:36] And the other aspect, which I also alluded to,
is, you know, in science, you know, to to get,
[19:44] you know...
[19:44] To be able to to make confident claims, you
really have to make systems very simple.
[19:49] Right?
[19:49] So to go into these reductionist models.
[19:52] And so, again, we're working in an area that's
where we can make, causal contributions or
[19:58] causal claims about very specific things.
[20:01] But then when you zoom out, like, again, this
molecule is produced by this bacteria.
[20:05] Gets to the brain.
[20:06] It affects brain function.
[20:08] But when you zoom out right, into a person,
there's no one molecule.
[20:11] There are hundreds of molecules.
[20:13] Right?
[20:13] And then that person has infections.
[20:15] That person has lifestyle, you know, changes,
you know, dietary patterns.
[20:20] Their their genetics are super important,
right, in how it manifests.
[20:24] So it can't...
[20:25] I don't think it rises to level causal in in
humans because that molecule at at identical
[20:31] levels in two different people could have two
different effects.
[20:33] Right?
[20:34] For exam...
[20:34] I could have a genetic vulnerability, for
example, that makes me predisposed to adverse
[20:42] behaviors if that, you know, a certain molecule
is elevated.
[20:46] You have a genetic landscape that doesn't make
you vulnerable.
[20:49] You could have high levels of that molecule,
but you don't manifest.
[20:53] Right?
[20:53] And so, again, I think it's important to be
rigorous and and and also know the context in
[20:58] which you're working.
[20:59] Right?
[20:59] So, again, the data show that that molecule is
important.
[21:02] This class of molecules are important.
[21:04] In whom are they important?
[21:06] And, you know, what else is going on?
[21:08] Those are the blind spots that we still have.
[21:10] I mean, that's such an important point, Sarkis,
is that it it...
[21:13] You know, they're such heterogeneity in the
population, and the genes load the gun, but the
[21:18] environment pulls the trigger.
[21:19] So the same insult might not cause a problem in
one person where it might cause a problem in
[21:24] another person.
[21:24] And we see this all the time in medicine, and
we try to label people with these categories of
[21:29] illnesses like autism, but these are...
[21:30] There's no such thing.
[21:31] There are autisms, and there are Alzheimer's or
Parkinson's is whatever the plural is of that.
[21:38] And and I think, you know, we're we're so used
to these sort of very narrowed disease
[21:43] classification systems that we missed the
reality that that these conditions are quite
[21:47] heterogeneous even though they may manifest the
same way symptomatically.
[21:51] They causally might have very different
patterns and they might be variable factors
[21:55] that are including genes and environmental
factors.
[21:58] And there there are no two cases that are
exactly the same.
[22:01] And I see this as a doctor practicing medicine
in the trenches that you know, I'm humbled by
[22:06] the fact that you know how little we know and
then actually, you know, by listening to the
[22:10] patient, you will learn a lot.
[22:12] I think William Moulson said listen to the
patient who has the disease rather than the
[22:16] think about the name of the whatever the
disease that the patient has.
[22:18] And I think that's that's really important.
[22:21] And I think I think with with autism, I've seen
clinically so many cases where we've looked at
[22:27] the gut microbiome.
[22:28] We've seen abnormalities in there.
[22:30] And I remember one of my professors was a
pediatrician named Sydney Baker, and he he was
[22:35] an incredible pioneer in this field and treated
thousands of kids with autism.
[22:39] And he used to talk about, you know, if you've
seen one kid with autism, you've seen one kid
[22:43] with autism.
[22:44] And when we looked at these kids gut, whether
it was symptomatically or just looking at their
[22:48] stool or even things like organic acid testing,
looks in some ways at the microbial metabolites
[22:54] that come from the gut that are in metabolized
by the body and excreted in the urine, and we
[22:59] can measure those things.
[23:00] And we don't completely understand how they all
interact or what they do, but their signals are
[23:03] there.
[23:04] When you see these things, it it correlates
with with these symptoms.
[23:07] And when you treat them, these kids often will
get better.
[23:09] And I've seen many kids in my practice who when
you when you optimize their gut health and you
[23:14] get rid of the bad bugs, you put in good bugs,
to deal with the leaky gut phenomenon.
[23:18] I think, you know, because this is complex web
of interaction between the gut microbial
[23:23] environment, between the immune system and the
gut and the nervous system and the rest of the
[23:27] body, it's it's such a complex web.
[23:29] And so you're you're right.
[23:30] You're trying to use that one molecule here or
there, and it may not be the whole story.
[23:33] But it...
[23:34] But but the the truth of the matter is that
there's something going on here that that
[23:38] traditional medicine is missing when it comes
to understanding how the microbiome plays a
[23:42] role in in in in kind of psychiatric, in
neurological, and even, you know, a host of
[23:47] other conditions that I mentioned earlier.
[23:49] So that's why your work is so important because
it's kind of teasing apart, like, how this all
[23:53] sort of interacts.
[23:54] Yeah.
[23:54] I mean, for something...
[23:56] For a condition like autism, right, where there
isn't a a a, you know, a blood test or a brain
[24:01] scan.
[24:02] Right?
[24:02] We're using behavioral assessments, which can
be quite subjective.
[24:07] Many of the behavioral assessments require
parent reporting.
[24:11] Right?
[24:12] Parents tend to be, you know, not the most
accurate in terms of being able to to recall
[24:19] what happened a week ago, a month ago, a year
ago, right, in their environment or or to their
[24:25] child.
[24:25] And, obviously, there's the the very strong
emotional psychological component to this as
[24:30] well.
[24:30] Right?
[24:31] And so I think that makes the problem even more
difficult to solve.
[24:34] Right?
[24:35] It's because the definition of autism is not
one thing.
[24:40] Right?
[24:40] And and again, it's it's subject to to a lot of
noise based on...
[24:46] I mean, just like data noise based on the
observer and and and and the reporting.
[24:51] And so now we're trying to take what is likely
a biological, heterogeneous biological group,
[25:00] and superimpose on them the ability to assess
their biological state with a heterogeneous set
[25:08] of tools.
[25:09] Right?
[25:09] So that really compounds our ability to know
really what's going on.
[25:12] Right?
[25:13] And I think that's something that that the
autism field would really benefit from is,
[25:17] again, like like a biomarker.
[25:19] Right?
[25:19] Like, one, if there is ever such a thing.
[25:22] And there may not be.
[25:23] Right?
[25:23] I mean, I think autism could be quite quite,
you know, different in the fact that, like,
[25:28] multiple etiologies, which are, like, this
trigger, if you will, all converge on a set of
[25:34] behaviors that we call autism, but the origins
are all different.
[25:37] Right?
[25:38] They just manifest in in the same way.
[25:40] But if we had something reliable where you can
track it, you know, with a, let's say, a blood
[25:45] test, and that tracks with behavior, right,
then I think we can start asking those
[25:50] questions of, okay, you know, as you've talked
about in your practice, when I treat the gut,
[25:55] what do I see objectively?
[25:58] What can I see confidently change in that
individual?
[26:01] Right?
[26:02] And so I think, obviously, other conditions, we
have better...
[26:05] A little bit better understanding.
[26:07] And, you know, again, these objective
biomarkers, you know, like, something you can
[26:11] measure that is independent of, let's say,
placebo or independent of opinion or or recall.
[26:17] Right?
[26:18] And that makes...
[26:19] That allows us to make headway faster when you
have those those sets of endpoints or or those
[26:24] reliable outcomes.
[26:25] But when a kid when a kid goes from being
nonverbal and not connected and having all
[26:29] these, you know, classical autistic features
and then they go away or they dramatically
[26:34] improve, It's not it's it's not like you need a
biomarker to figure that out.
[26:37] The kid says, he's not talking and then starts
talking.
[26:40] That's a pretty good biomarker.
[26:42] But what defines talking?
[26:43] Right?
[26:43] So number of words in a given amount of time,
you know, the the complexity of the language,
[26:49] the Yeah.
[26:50] The size of lexicon.
[26:52] Right?
[26:52] And so...
[26:52] But I I would
[26:53] I mean, going from not talking to being fluent,
I would say is a pretty good biomarker.
[26:57] And I've seen that happen.
[26:58] I've seen that happen.
[26:59] And it's like something is going on, and it's
often when you treat the gut or when you get
[27:03] rid of things like gluten or when you do, you
know, kind of these weird sort of manipulations
[27:08] of the the the body and and it's sort of
ecosystem.
[27:11] Sometimes things will just click into place.
[27:13] And so I think I think we were chatting a
little earlier how, you know, a of the autism
[27:17] field feels like this is a durable problem.
[27:19] Like it's it's genetic.
[27:20] It's it's non modifiable.
[27:22] It's fixed, and it can't be changed.
[27:23] And I think, know, your work shows that that
clearly can when you take the the the germ free
[27:29] mice.
[27:29] In other words, having a microbiome and you put
in the poop of an autistic person or mouse.
[27:34] I don't know how you exactly did it.
[27:35] And then that germ free mouse becomes autistic.
[27:39] That's a really interesting finding.
[27:40] Right?
[27:41] Can you talk about that?
[27:42] I can.
[27:42] But, again, you know, the caveats are that
it...
[27:45] It's an animal study.
[27:46] I want...
[27:46] Before I talk about our work and what in terms
of of showing the contribution of of the
[27:51] microbiome to autistic, you know, traits in
mice, just going back to to your point about
[27:57] about language.
[27:58] You know, the the...
[28:01] What you described to me is something I've
heard many dozens, if not hundreds of times.
[28:06] Right?
[28:06] People who've treated the gut...
[28:07] Because, again, I I just hear these these
stories.
[28:09] Right?
[28:11] The gut...
[28:11] And and, you know, to to the people who are
observing them, like clinicians, parents, you
[28:16] know, other caregivers, what have you, to them,
it's black and white.
[28:19] Right?
[28:19] It's that this child, you know, was a certain
way for years, and we improved their their gut
[28:25] function, and they're no longer the person
we've known for years.
[28:29] Right?
[28:30] And so it's it's hard to argue that point.
[28:32] Right?
[28:32] But I would say, Mark, and you tell me as a
clinician, right, you know, that translating
[28:40] those observations into clinical results is
challenging without those quantitative metrics.
[28:47] Right?
[28:47] Without being able to actually put numbers
around what you're what you're seeing.
[28:52] Right?
[28:53] And it's not...
[28:54] Again, it's not that people...
[28:55] You know, I don't disbelieve.
[28:57] It's not that that it's an issue of belief.
[28:59] It's an issue of, like, yeah, I don't know, the
the language scientists and and and physicians
[29:04] speak in terms of saying, okay.
[29:06] Now I believe what I just heard.
[29:07] Let me, based on that information, make a set
of decisions.
[29:12] Right?
[29:12] So that's why I think, again, you know, trust
me.
[29:16] I I I like to push the envelope.
[29:18] Don't get me wrong.
[29:18] Right?
[29:19] But but at the same time, you know, there...
[29:21] It has to be...
[29:22] Whatever claims we make, we have to be able to
validate it and substantiate it in ways that
[29:27] are objective.
[29:28] Right?
[29:28] And so, again, so I think there is value in
being able to find those those metrics.
[29:33] And maybe it is something like just recording.
[29:35] Right?
[29:36] And and especially these days.
[29:37] Right?
[29:37] Because you could sort of really deconstruct
language in ways that are that that are, you
[29:42] know, quite sophisticated.
[29:43] Right?
[29:44] And put numbers around that...
[29:45] Those those parameters.
[29:46] I think then scientists will say, okay.
[29:48] I believe now there's a change from before and
after, right, that that gut intervention, and
[29:54] let me now dig in to see what the what the
biology is.
[29:57] Yeah.
[29:57] It's a great it's a great point.
[29:58] And I think, you know, when I when I'm thinking
about these kids, and and I've seen literally
[30:01] hundreds of these kids along the whole spectrum
of neurodevelopmental disorders.
[30:06] And there are common themes, like these kids
have all have a lot of oxidative stress, and
[30:11] you can measure that with, you know, lipid
peroxides
[30:14] or
[30:15] eight hydroxy to deoxyguanosine, which is a DNA
addict, like a damaged DNA byproduct.
[30:21] They have low glutathione.
[30:23] They have impaired methylation.
[30:25] They often will have problems with the the
microbiome which you can measure and then there
[30:30] may be things that aren't like well accepted,
but they're things like urinary metabolites of
[30:35] a daratumatol, which is a fungal metabolite or
other other metabolites from microbes that we
[30:41] can measure and that they change when the
behavior changes.
[30:44] So the docs says stress comes down, methylation
patterns improve, glutathione comes up.
[30:48] We see you know, the the microbial metabolites
change.
[30:52] These things we can observe and I...
[30:54] Or we see you know intestinal inflammation
improve.
[30:56] So there there are subtle markers like I had
one kid who was autism.
[30:59] He had high calprotectin, eosinophil protein x
which are biomarkers of gut inflammation.
[31:04] Well, he didn't fully have colitis or also
colitis, but he had something cooking in his
[31:07] gut.
[31:08] And so we we normalize his microbiome by you
know giving out a remember we gave I think we
[31:13] had to give him rifaximin and and and any
fungal fluconazole to kind of reset the bugs
[31:17] and probiotics.
[31:19] Those are sort of not absorbed antibiotics and
in any fungal and and and probiotics.
[31:23] He he got better and and those numbers came
down.
[31:26] So they they weren't like an autism biomarker,
but they were things we use in medicine to
[31:30] measure function in the body that are that are
a little bit more tangential, but seem to be
[31:36] kind of moving in tandem with these kids when
they when they're bad they're worse and when
[31:40] they're better they're better.
[31:41] And
[31:41] so I mean that's that's what I've seen
clinically and I know it's not it's not it's
[31:45] what we call anecdotes.
[31:47] And I think you know the the the plural of
anecdotes or anecdote or something.
[31:52] And and I think that the whole phenomenon of n
of one studies I think is really interesting
[31:55] because that's I think where we're gonna start
to learn more.
[31:58] If we can start to be more rigorous about these
n
[32:00] of one studies where we we...
[32:01] The person is essentially their own control
before and after.
[32:04] And it it is it
[32:05] it is a messy problem because these are, know,
the the...
[32:08] This whole...
[32:08] Our whole movement of medicine from being
reductionist and specialty driven to being more
[32:13] understanding the body's a system or network
and the microbiome is the most important
[32:17] example of that in human biology.
[32:18] You know, the the the labels and ways we
describe things don't match the the
[32:22] observations anymore.
[32:24] And so we have to change our theories when when
our theory doesn't explain our observations.
[32:28] And that's that's kind of where we are in
medicine, but the clinical practice hasn't
[32:31] quite caught up with where you are in your
research, unfortunately.
[32:34] And I think it will.
[32:35] Right?
[32:35] Because, you know, at the end of the day, the
clinicians who are, you know, who are on the
[32:40] front lines, obviously, they wanna do the right
thing for their for their patients, and and
[32:45] they'll try, you know, they'll they'll use the
tools that are available to them.
[32:48] Right?
[32:48] But, again, there...
[32:49] There's a certain, you know, threshold of
evidence that they need before they say,
[32:55] alright.
[32:55] I'm gonna start implementing this.
[32:56] Right?
[32:56] Again, some people are just gonna be, you know,
more, you know, pioneering, if you will, right,
[33:02] and and, take calculated risks.
[33:04] Right?
[33:05] But, you know, I think mainstream medicine
tends to be very, very concerned.
[33:08] Again, you...
[33:09] And you would know you would know better than I
I would.
[33:13] Going back to to the the studies that we did.
[33:15] So we did a a number of different things.
[33:17] Had been...
[33:18] One of the places we started is we had been
previously working on an organism, a gut
[33:24] microbe that had very potent anti inflammatory
effects.
[33:28] Something I worked on early in my career.
[33:31] And this in and of itself, I think, was was
quite a sort of a sea change, if you will, in
[33:36] in how we view microbes is that we had
discovered an organism that actually dampened
[33:43] the immune response.
[33:44] It actually balanced the immune system.
[33:46] Oh.
[33:46] Right?
[33:47] Because, again, you know, we all think of the
immune system as something that becomes
[33:51] activated.
[33:52] Once there's an infection, the goal is to then
clear the infectious agent and our immune
[33:56] system evolve to do that.
[33:57] Right?
[33:58] And in most cases, it does it quite well, and
it actually does it without us knowing in in in
[34:03] many cases...
[34:04] In most cases.
[34:05] So what we discovered was an organism that
actually did the opposite.
[34:08] It actually helped the immune system fight off
infections.
[34:11] It actually helped the immune system not become
over activated.
[34:14] So, again, you alluded to autoimmunity.
[34:16] What is autoimmunity?
[34:18] It's when your own immune system is attacking
your body.
[34:20] Right?
[34:20] It thinks there's an infection or it becomes
activated for some, you know, usually unknown
[34:25] reason, and then there's...
[34:26] Over time, the chronic immune activation leads
to tissue damage.
[34:29] If it's in the brain, it's multiple sclerosis.
[34:31] If it's in the gut's Crohn's disease, if it's
in the the joints, it's rheumatoid arthritis,
[34:36] so on and so forth.
[34:37] Right?
[34:37] And so the organism that we had discovered
actually was protective against these
[34:41] autoimmune or allergic conditions because it
dampened the immune system.
[34:47] And so now fast forwarding to the animal
results that I described a few minutes ago, we
[34:52] found elevated levels of inflammation that got
at these mice.
[34:55] And so our our hypothesis was, well, let's put
in this bacteria that dampens the immune system
[35:01] and see if we then get behavioral improvements.
[35:04] And we actually did.
[35:05] Right?
[35:06] And so once we added this organ...
[35:09] The name of the organ is called bacteroes
fragilis.
[35:11] It's in about thirty to fifty percent of the
healthy human population.
[35:15] Generally, it can be in pretty high numbers in
in most people.
[35:18] It's a healthy organism.
[35:19] A healthy gut bacteria.
[35:20] Right?
[35:20] Or gut bacteria that is about healthy people.
[35:24] And it it...
[35:26] You know, when we treated mice with this with
this, you know, let's say, call it next
[35:32] generation probiotic, the mice improved in
their autism like, quote unquote, symptoms.
[35:38] So we said, okay.
[35:39] Well, it must be the immune system there
because that's how we've been studying this
[35:42] organism.
[35:43] Turned out it wasn't because we knew the
molecule made by the bacteria that dampened the
[35:47] immune response.
[35:49] And when we put in a bacteria that was missing
that molecule, the organism was still able to
[35:54] improve Uh-huh.
[35:55] Behavioral outcomes.
[35:57] And we didn't see much change in the in the
inflammatory patterns in the animals.
[36:01] So, again, a good, you know, maybe story.
[36:03] Like, your initial hypothesis could be wrong,
but that's, you know, a long way.
[36:06] So find something because the organism,
regardless of its ability to modulate the
[36:10] immune system, was still providing behavioral
improvement.
[36:12] So we wondered, well, then why is that?
[36:14] What was it?
[36:15] Yeah.
[36:15] What was it?
[36:16] And so our best guess, we don't know for sure
to this day, but our best guess is that in
[36:20] addition to dampening mucin, we found that the
organism actually helps repair that leaky gut
[36:25] phenotype that we talked about.
[36:26] Right?
[36:27] So, you know, what does that do?
[36:29] Right?
[36:29] You know, just very basic.
[36:31] The gut lets nutrients in and keeps toxins out,
right, or excretes, you know, waste from the
[36:35] body as well.
[36:36] Right?
[36:36] Again, overly simplified.
[36:38] When that discrimination of knowing what to let
in and what to keep out is broken down, then
[36:44] harmful things get in and we consider 40 p s
and other molecules to be in that category that
[36:49] are elevated because of the leaky gut.
[36:52] And so we shorten animals, and we shorten in
cell cultures at this organ that someone's able
[36:56] to reseal that barrier.
[36:57] So think of this as like a zipper, right, that
is then, you know, zipped up or or or sealed by
[37:04] this bacteria in ways that we still don't
understand.
[37:07] But once that happens, once the gut is
repaired, less of these toxic molecules get out
[37:12] of the gut and into the circulation.
[37:14] So they're...
[37:14] Effectively, their concentration drops, and
they're no longer inducing these behavioral
[37:19] deviations.
[37:20] That's amazing.
[37:21] No.
[37:21] But, I mean, again, it just it just tells
you...
[37:24] And I think this is to your point, but in in a
way, in an system where, again, we know exactly
[37:28] what those variables were.
[37:29] That person didn't go out and eat a
cheeseburger, you know, while we're eating them
[37:33] or take an antibiotic while we're...
[37:35] What have you because we can, again, you know,
very carefully control the environment.
[37:39] And we know it's because of of this of this
microbe.
[37:41] But, you know, again, maybe this is an example
of what you were talking about that you...
[37:47] You know, we know we're treating the gut in
this particular case.
[37:49] The organism does not travel to the brain.
[37:51] Right?
[37:52] But it then short circuits that flow of these
these neuroactive...
[37:57] These neurotoxic molecules, and the
consequences is improvement.
[38:01] You know, you brought up the...
[38:02] Of a leaky gut, and this is something that I
used to be laughed at when I mentioned in
[38:07] academic circles a few decades ago.
[38:10] And now here you are talking about this as a
sort of established fact.
[38:14] And I think we we do now understand that the
gut is a semi permeable membrane that allows
[38:21] hopefully just nutrients and things that we
want in and keeps bacteria and toxins and food
[38:28] fragments out.
[38:29] But when that is interrupted, it it can
disregulate things in multiple ways from
[38:34] allowing microbial metabolites or the signal
molecules to get through or actually just
[38:39] activating the immune system or irritating the
nervous system in the gut that irritates the
[38:44] brain nervous system.
[38:45] So there's so many mechanisms by which it can
cause neurologic disruption and and systemic
[38:50] disruption.
[38:50] But you know, you you you you kind of
highlighted this particular story of your
[38:54] science, which is that you added a bacteria
that that had a an effect, which is to help
[39:00] seal up this leaky gut that had been
consequences in terms of the behavior of that
[39:05] animal.
[39:06] You've also done the opposite, which is you've
taken poop from an autistic kind of model of
[39:12] mice, and you put it in a germ free mice, and
you've induced abnormal behaviors.
[39:18] So it kinda works both ways.
[39:19] Right?
[39:20] Again, our microbiomes, your mind and vast
majority of people, we have somewhere between
[39:25] two and five hundred different species of
bacteria.
[39:28] Depends on how how they're sort of
computationally counted.
[39:32] And, you know, it's really the balance between
those organisms that mediates, you know, the
[39:40] balance between health and disease.
[39:41] Right?
[39:42] And so, again, all bacteria are not bad.
[39:44] All bacteria are not good.
[39:45] Some are...
[39:46] Some could be good in certain contexts and bad
in other...
[39:48] It's it's it's, you know, it's pretty complex.
[39:52] Right?
[39:52] But, you know, again, we think of infectious
agents as something that comes into the body
[39:57] and causes the disease.
[39:58] The microbiome's impact on our physiology isn't
something from the outs...
[40:03] Usually, it's not something from the outside
coming in.
[40:06] Right?
[40:06] It's that the ratios of the organisms that were
there are altered.
[40:10] Right?
[40:11] And so when you do these wholesale depletions,
like antibiotic treatment or one other thing we
[40:16] do is we grow these mice in the...
[40:17] In these bubbles, these sterile chambers.
[40:20] Right?
[40:20] But there's no microbes in there.
[40:22] So you know about, like, people with, like,
skid mutations or impaired immune systems.
[40:25] They...
[40:26] Like, pour in a bubble.
[40:27] Right?
[40:27] They...
[40:27] And then as well, we can grow mice now.
[40:29] So there's, you know, the genetics side of food
environment is identical.
[40:33] They just have no microbes in them.
[40:34] Right?
[40:34] So really clean systems.
[40:36] Artificial because there's no germ free humans.
[40:39] Right?
[40:39] But we know exactly what's in or not in those
animals.
[40:43] Right?
[40:43] So we do...
[40:44] When we do these manipulations, we're getting
rid of everything, the good and the bad ones.
[40:47] Right?
[40:48] Yeah.
[40:48] So, you know, the next level, which we and many
other people are now moving towards, is how do
[40:54] we think about recreating natural situations
where we're not just removing all the microbes,
[41:00] the good and the bad ones, or we're just
putting in the good ones, or we're just putting
[41:03] in the bad ones.
[41:03] Right?
[41:04] But we're, you know, reproducing this
imbalance, if you will.
[41:08] Right?
[41:09] And so one of the ways to do that, and there's
probably a number of ways.
[41:12] Right?
[41:13] But one of ways to do that is then take fecal
material from humans with a particular
[41:18] condition and then put them into the animal
models.
[41:20] Right?
[41:21] And there are caveats to this.
[41:22] Right?
[41:22] You're putting human microbes into into mice,
and you're looking at, obviously, all the mouse
[41:26] readouts that we talked about.
[41:28] But this is much more natural in terms of of
reproducing the human condition than anything
[41:34] we do when you just start off with mice.
[41:35] Right?
[41:36] For a number of different reasons.
[41:37] Eight, mouse and and human microbes are vastly
different.
[41:41] Right?
[41:41] Number one.
[41:42] Number two, the mice that we work with in
biomedicine and and academia and pharma
[41:46] industry, what have you, they have very
depleted microbiome.
[41:49] And this is sort of a tangent, so I want to
label it.
[41:52] Because they're they're
[41:53] eating that crappy industrial mouse food
instead of like wild mouse food.
[41:57] Right?
[41:57] That's right.
[41:58] It's like humans.
[42:00] Sometimes when you're craving something sweet,
[42:02] the answer isn't necessarily to have more
willpower.
[42:05] It's worth asking what your body might actually
be asking for.
[42:08] And one thing I pay attention to is whether I'm
getting enough protein throughout the day.
[42:11] Protein is important for satiety, for muscle,
providing the essential amino acids our bodies
[42:16] need, and that's one reason perfect aminos has
become part of my daily routine.
[42:21] I take it every day because it's a simple way
to supplement my protein intake with all nine
[42:25] essential amino acids without adding a lot of
calories.
[42:28] I especially like having on days when
[42:30] I'm traveling, working long hours, or just
[42:32] know that I haven't gotten enough protein from
food.
[42:34] It's a small thing, but for me, it's become an
easy part of my everyday routine.
[42:39] If you're looking for help to fill protein
gaps, go to bodyhealth.com and use the go to
[42:43] Hyman 20 for 20% off.
[42:45] This episode is brought to you by Rose
Nutrition liposomal glutathione.
[42:49] We've closed the book on the warmer weather for
the year.
[42:51] So how do we support our immunity through the
colder months?
[42:54] Let's talk about glutathione.
[42:56] Known as the body's master antioxidant,
glutathione is a tripeptide with a lot to
[43:01] offer.
[43:01] It helps maintain healthy immune cell function.
[43:03] It supports the body's natural detoxification
pathways.
[43:06] Glutathione also helps neutralize free radicals
supporting the body's resilience to daily
[43:10] stressors, like cold winter weather.
[43:13] Your glutathione levels naturally decline with
age, with stress, and environmental exposure,
[43:17] but supplementation can help promote healthy
levels and support antioxidant pathways.
[43:22] Since glutathione is susceptible to
degradation, Roe uses liposomal delivery to
[43:26] support nutrient recovery, protection, and
enhanced absorption.
[43:29] If you're looking to put on another layer of
protection this winter, start here.
[43:33] Go to roannutrition.com and use the code Hyman
for 20% off-site wide.
[43:38] That's the code HYMAN, rhonutrition.com.
[43:42] Right.
[43:42] But it...
[43:43] It's really a commercial thing.
[43:44] So the animal vendors have depleted the
microbiomes just so they can have a
[43:48] reproducible standardized microbiome.
[43:50] Right?
[43:51] And so...
[43:51] But, again, what has that done?
[43:52] It's divorced the function of that microbiome
from the things that we're looking at in mice.
[43:58] Again, this is endemic.
[43:59] It's pervasive in biomedical.
[44:01] It's a huge shortcoming.
[44:02] Right?
[44:03] It's something that we're working to to try
and, you know, improve, but it's we're not
[44:08] gonna change, right, the way the way
experiments are done.
[44:11] So that being said, right, is, you know, how
can you make...
[44:15] Or how can I make mouse models more reflective
of human biology?
[44:19] Right?
[44:20] Again, we have a couple of levers to pull.
[44:22] And when you make these germ free animals, they
give you results, the animals that we test, but
[44:29] they're also a tool.
[44:30] They're a tool because now you have no mouse
microbes.
[44:33] Again, a completely sterile mouse gut.
[44:36] So you can transplant the human microbiome into
those animals without competition from the
[44:41] mouse organism.
[44:42] So what does that allow us to do?
[44:43] Right?
[44:44] Again, in addition to sending microbes, it's to
say, alright.
[44:48] If I take poop, a source of mycobacter from a
person listed with Parkinson's, and, you know,
[44:55] a household control, a spouse, or a population
control.
[44:58] Right?
[44:59] And I put these organ...
[45:01] These entire groups of organisms into mice.
[45:05] Now I can say, what are...
[45:07] What's the outcome in that animal?
[45:09] Do they have symptoms of Parkinson's?
[45:11] Or is the mouse that received the Parkinson's
microbiome, does it have worse motor symptoms
[45:16] or worse movement disorder, neuroinflammation,
GI symptoms, than a mouse that got a human
[45:22] microbiome from a person that didn't have
Parkinson's?
[45:26] To me, that's a much fairer comparison, number
one.
[45:28] Right?
[45:29] It's closer to humans, which I think is very
important.
[45:32] Right?
[45:32] But it also allows you to, again, as I said,
recapitulate or reproduce that natural state,
[45:38] right, of an imbalance in, you know, the the
organisms that were there.
[45:43] Right?
[45:43] I think this is...
[45:44] You know, I personally believe this is a very,
very powerful tool.
[45:48] Right?
[45:48] And the reason why...
[45:50] It's not just us.
[45:50] There's like 50, 60 papers in the literature
from labs all around the world that show that
[45:54] you can transplant some human phenotypes into
mice just by moving the microbiome from humans
[46:03] to mice.
[46:04] Right?
[46:04] You're not changing the genetics of the animal.
[46:06] You're not giving them chemical exposures.
[46:08] Not even putting them on, like, processed, you
know, ultra processed foods or anything else.
[46:12] Right?
[46:13] You're not giving them infections.
[46:15] You're just moving the microbiome.
[46:16] Right?
[46:17] And in doing that, you can see, again,
increased movement disorders.
[46:21] And if the mouse is, you know, colonized with a
Parkinson's microbiome, increased behavioral
[46:26] deficits, if it's colonized with a microbiome
from person with autism.
[46:30] We've done this in multiple sclerosis, but it's
been done in depression.
[46:33] It's been done in rheumatoid arthritis.
[46:36] Right?
[46:36] So it's been done in a number of.
[46:37] Right?
[46:38] And so then I think there's there's two things.
[46:40] A, it...
[46:42] You know, I think it advances the concept that
microbiome change is meaningful.
[46:47] Right?
[46:47] We're not just measuring the change in in
humans.
[46:50] We're actually putting that microbiome to the
test, albeit in an animal.
[46:54] Right?
[46:55] But now gives you an experimental system that
you can take upon in ways that we can't humans
[47:02] and really get to underlying biology.
[47:04] Right?
[47:04] Learn things that the that the typical mouse
that the world, you know, scientists use, that
[47:10] information you just can't get because it
doesn't have that human microbiome with that
[47:14] original change in the ratios of organisms that
were there the entire time.
[47:19] Well, don't if you intended this or not by your
work, but I I know there are people out there
[47:23] in the frontiers of medicine who are taking
healthy microbiomes from healthy donors, if
[47:30] there is such a thing, and and using it in
patients with Parkinson's or with autism.
[47:35] And they're actually seeing changes.
[47:37] And I've I've heard enough case reports where
I'm like, oh, this is fascinating.
[47:40] Because when I when I hear, you know, one story
of okay.
[47:43] When I hear two or three or four of the same
story, I go, oh, and there's maybe something
[47:46] paying attention worth paying attention to
here.
[47:48] And and and, you know, I'm not suggesting in
any way that anybody go out and start doing
[47:52] poop transplants from healthy kids to kids with
autism or people with non Parkinson's
[47:57] presentations with people with Parkinson's.
[47:58] I'm not saying that.
[47:59] We're not ready for that yet, But it's an
interesting phenomena that that we're seeing
[48:03] out there that people are are desperate with
these conditions and they're trying to do
[48:07] something and and sometimes it's working and it
might have to do with what you're talking
[48:10] about.
[48:10] But but, you know, we've had other scientists
on the podcast neurologists talking about
[48:15] Parkinson's from a different perspective,
environmental toxins, is a whole different
[48:19] thing.
[48:19] So like I said earlier, these are heterogeneous
conditions.
[48:22] They mean they...
[48:23] They're not one cause for every case of
Parkinson's.
[48:26] There are many causes and many triggers that
can cause the same downstream symptoms,
[48:31] including toxins, changes in the microbiome.
[48:34] So I think it's just this whole area so
fascinating.
[48:36] You you kind of dove a little bit into the
Parkinson's area.
[48:39] I I think, you know, you know, we do see this
and it's well understood in traditional
[48:43] medicine that people with Parkinson's tend to
have gut issues.
[48:46] They tend to be constipated.
[48:47] You mentioned often years or often even a
decade or more before they get any symptoms of
[48:51] Parkinson's.
[48:52] And you're suggesting this isn't necessarily
just a correlation, but there there may be some
[48:57] causative factor here in the microbiome that's
changing things over time, causing inflammatory
[49:01] or toxic damage in the brain that's leading to
a Parkinsonian presentation.
[49:07] Is is that is that kind of what you're where
you're pointing at?
[49:09] We think so.
[49:09] Right?
[49:10] So so then the idea that Parkinson's patients,
the majority of Parkinson's patients have GI
[49:15] symptoms is not new.
[49:17] In fact, it goes back at least two hundred
years.
[49:20] I often quote the essay on Shaking Palsy
written by James Parkinson himself in 1817
[49:26] where he talked about GI issues in individuals
that he was studying.
[49:30] And neurologists know about this because many
of their patients will come in in addition to
[49:35] their movement disorders, talk about their GI
symptoms.
[49:37] And, again, I think there's very large
epidemiologic studies now that show that this
[49:42] is the case.
[49:43] But, again, I think there's still a chicken and
the egg question, Mark, is, you know, which
[49:47] comes first and which one is affecting which?
[49:49] Meaning, is it is the disease starting in the
brain and affecting the gut?
[49:53] Is the disease starting in the gut affecting
the brain?
[49:55] Obviously, it could be people.
[49:56] It could be different paths.
[49:58] Right?
[49:58] And maybe maybe you're the wrong question.
[49:59] It may be both.
[50:01] They might...
[50:02] It's it's...
[50:03] I would venture to guess it is both, but it's
different in different people.
[50:06] Right?
[50:06] Some people, it could be brain.
[50:07] Yeah.
[50:07] Others, it could be in the gut.
[50:09] Right?
[50:10] So this has evolved into into something that's
now called the brain first versus body first
[50:15] hypothesis in Parkinson's, where, again, I
think the data are just much more solid than
[50:20] other conditions about this GI GI comorbidity
in a brain disorder.
[50:26] What's really fascinating is that people who
have...
[50:29] If you look at someone who was diagnosed
Parkinson's, you look back at their medical
[50:33] history, oftentimes, you'll see that they
either were treated or reported GI symptoms
[50:39] years, if not decades, before their their
move...
[50:43] Their or, you know, what made them, you know,
go to see a movement disorder specialist in the
[50:48] first place.
[50:48] Right?
[50:49] And so Yeah.
[50:50] Again, it's a temporal argument.
[50:51] It's not it's not, you know, causal, but it
suggests that maybe something started in the
[50:58] gut first, and that's where it initially began,
and then over time, migrated to the brain.
[51:06] And what I mean by that is this, and this is
part of that gut first hypothesis or body first
[51:10] hypothesis, is that there's the trigger for
Parkinson's, which could be an environmental
[51:15] toxin, which could be a bacterium, which could
be an industrial chemical, a heavy metal, a
[51:20] number of different things, right, or a
combination of these.
[51:23] Right?
[51:23] It's interesting because a lot of the
environmental toxins that are implicated in
[51:29] Parkinson's actually affect your microbiome.
[51:31] And so I think
[51:32] Yeah.
[51:32] I was gonna say that.
[51:33] If you hadn't said that, I was gonna jump in on
that because that that is right.
[51:36] I think that's a very very important
observation that toxins also affect the
[51:39] microbiome.
[51:40] Yeah.
[51:40] Is is it is it that the toxin affects the
microbiome which then affects the body, or the
[51:44] toxin affecting the body directly bypass
micro...
[51:46] Again, we don't have the...
[51:47] Those answers.
[51:48] Right?
[51:48] But that being said, so if if you, you know,
again, look at, you know, again, let's just
[51:53] call them just trigger...
[51:54] All those triggers.
[51:55] Maybe the trigger's in the gut.
[51:57] Right?
[51:57] Because, yeah, we ingest a lot of things.
[51:59] Right?
[52:00] I mean, our skin is relatively inert.
[52:02] Obviously, we inhale molecules, but the vast
majority of molecules that contact our body,
[52:07] that go into our body, come in through our gut.
[52:10] Right?
[52:10] And so that's where the trigger is.
[52:12] And so this hypothesis is that that initial
pathology...
[52:16] My pathology in Parkinson's, it's aggregation
of a neuronal protein called alpha synuclein.
[52:21] Right?
[52:22] So for the...
[52:22] For those of you that don't know, alpha
synuclein is a neuronal protein.
[52:27] It's found, again, expressed by our neurons,
our nerve cells.
[52:30] It has a function in those nerve cells.
[52:32] But what's interesting about this protein is
that it it tends to clump, and when it clumps,
[52:37] it builds up into cells.
[52:38] And if the cells can't get rid of the clump,
eventually the cells die.
[52:42] That's the neurodegeneration part.
[52:44] Right?
[52:44] The nerve death part of of Parkinson's.
[52:47] Similar...
[52:47] A different protein, but similar concept in in
Alzheimer's disease.
[52:50] And so the hypothesis goes that there's a
trigger where the nerve cells are dying first
[52:55] in the gut because of alpha synuclein
aggregation.
[52:59] And that's why you're seeing the constipation
first because, again, you know, neurons help us
[53:04] think and and sense and and all the other...
[53:06] Remember.
[53:07] Motility of your gut is dependent on the nerve.
[53:09] Right.
[53:10] That's right.
[53:10] Right.
[53:10] And so, you know, our our intestines, as you
just said, you know, push contents through
[53:15] because our nerves are telling our gut muscles
to contract.
[53:17] It's called peristalsis.
[53:19] Right?
[53:19] So if those nerve cells die, then the muscle,
you know, contents sit, takes longer, that's
[53:25] constipation.
[53:26] Right?
[53:27] And so, again, this is the hypothesis.
[53:29] And what is...
[53:30] You know, again, the extrapolation of that is
that that's why the constipation comes first
[53:35] because the nerve cells may be dying in the gut
first in some people before they start dying in
[53:39] the brain.
[53:40] So the question then is, how we start the
conversation, is how does that signal get from
[53:44] the gut to the brain?
[53:46] It could be a number of different paths.
[53:47] I think inflammation is is is one of the most
likely, but the nervous system itself is
[53:53] another one.
[53:53] Because what's very interesting about alpha
synuclein, this neuronal protein that
[53:58] aggregates at clumps, is we know that that
protein can move from neuron to neuron to
[54:04] neuron.
[54:05] Right?
[54:05] And so it can actually...
[54:07] Like, there's like a highway of nerve bundles.
[54:11] I mean, we know there's a highway of nerve
bundles connecting our gut, our brain.
[54:15] Maybe, you know, absolute kidney is just using
that highway.
[54:18] It started...
[54:19] You know, it was triggered in the gut, but it's
using that highway to get into our brain.
[54:23] And that's why...
[54:24] And that process takes years, and that's why
the movement disorder comes years later because
[54:30] that process then migrate to the brain and then
kill enough neurons in the brain for the
[54:35] movement disorder.
[54:36] Right?
[54:36] So, again, this is a hypothesis.
[54:38] I think there's a lot of evidence in people.
[54:40] It's interesting.
[54:40] It's irrefutable that this can happen in mice
because, again, we can trigger these events in
[54:46] the gut and see pathology in the brain.
[54:49] So it can happen.
[54:50] And that's where the frontier of Parkinson's
research, at least in terms of gut brain
[54:53] connection is, is to try and understand, you
know, is there a gut first origin in some cases
[54:59] of Parkinson's?
[55:00] And if it is, Mark, I think this...
[55:02] You know, again, you know, I mean, it does very
important knowledge, but I think this is really
[55:07] an opportunity.
[55:08] Right?
[55:09] As as I mentioned earlier, it's much easier to
intervene at the level of the gut than it is to
[55:15] intervene at the level of the gut.
[55:16] Yeah.
[55:17] Right?
[55:17] So if we can identify people, identify them
early enough in their disease, I think there's
[55:21] a good chance in the next five, ten years,
we'll have interventions to hopefully, this is
[55:26] an aspiration, hopefully stop Parkinson's in
its tracks in the gut.
[55:29] Yeah.
[55:30] It's so it's so important what you're saying,
and I think that that the the whole sort of
[55:34] understanding of how, you know, these
neurologic conditions are not just brain
[55:41] disorders.
[55:41] They're systemic disorders that affect the
brain.
[55:44] Martha Herbert, who's a pediatric neurologist,
wrote a paper about this that called an autism.
[55:48] Is it a systemic disorder that affects the
brain or a brain disorder?
[55:52] It's...
[55:53] And and her hypothesis is it's a systemic
disorder.
[55:56] And I and I've clinically observed that too and
whether it's with Parkinson's or autism or any
[56:01] host of a number of conditions, you know, you
you can't leave the gut out of the equation.
[56:05] It's almost like, you know, functional
medicine, which is what I practice as sort of
[56:10] the clinical application of this approach of
systems or network medicine.
[56:13] We always start with the gut.
[56:15] It's like whatever you're doing, like if
there's a problem, generally start there and
[56:18] see if you if you help normalize the microbiome
as best you can, which is hard to do, but you
[56:23] can.
[56:24] What happens?
[56:25] And and often people will have pretty
significant results.
[56:29] And even without any digestive symptoms, which
is kind of the other thing that people don't
[56:34] understand is you don't have to have digestive
symptoms to have dysbiosis or imbalance in the
[56:39] microbiome that causes systemic effects.
[56:42] And I just...
[56:43] I recently had a kid who...
[56:44] With with Asperger's slash sort of on the
spectrum of autism, and he had pretty bad
[56:48] behavior and and very hyper and and trouble
with, you know, language and in in school kind
[56:54] of reading, writing, and stuff.
[56:55] And and he turned out he had very high levels
of folate receptor antibodies which are
[57:01] triggered by a cross reaction to casein dairy.
[57:05] And and this is sort of well described in
literature.
[57:08] And, you know, the treatment was a form of
folate called leucovorin to bypass this step
[57:15] and to activate this brain folate receptor.
[57:17] The kid also had fungal overgrowth in his gut.
[57:20] He also had gluten sensitivity.
[57:21] He also had leaky gut by objective measures
that we tracked.
[57:25] And so we just kinda treated all these things
and the mother sent me a text.
[57:29] Well, my kid's normal and he was amazing.
[57:32] You know, like, and I...
[57:32] You know, we don't see that every day, but it's
it's not and it's not that every kid with
[57:36] autism or ADD or Asperger's has this particular
pattern.
[57:40] It's just that that there's a way in to just
understand these things on an individual basis
[57:44] that takes into account that the gut plays a
big role, that these things play are all
[57:48] interacting.
[57:49] And so I think that that your work really
highlights that that these are...
[57:53] That that that both you can you can have bad
bugs creating bad metabolites creating bad
[57:58] things in the body, or you can actually induce,
you know, improvements by putting healthy
[58:02] microbiomes in animals that are predisposed to
abnormal conditions like autism models or
[58:09] Parkinson's models.
[58:10] So it's kind of like, it's pretty amazing
research.
[58:13] Your work is pretty amazing.
[58:14] Can I ask, so how long in your practice for
those cases where you have seen improvements?
[58:19] How long does it
[58:20] usually take?
[58:21] It can be it can can be days.
[58:24] It can be days.
[58:25] It it can be quick.
[58:26] Like, it's not long.
[58:27] Like, it depends on what's going on.
[58:29] Sometimes there's more durable problems.
[58:31] Sometimes kids have other issues, sometimes
there's heavy metals, or sometimes there's
[58:34] there's things that are harder to treat.
[58:36] But when it's the gut and that's the problem
and you reset it, it's quite, you know, it's
[58:41] quite amazing.
[58:43] And and there's often some trigger.
[58:44] Right?
[58:45] Like you said, maybe there's toxins that cause
changes in the microbiome or maybe there's
[58:49] gluten which causes a leaky gut.
[58:51] We know from Fasano's work at Harvard that
that, you know, increases zionulin that causes
[58:55] increased permeability in the gut.
[58:56] So there's enough there there in the literature
to kind of put the dots together and you know,
[59:01] the art of medicine is really what what I do.
[59:03] Science of medicine is is is great to kind of
inquire and to dig in and to tease apart these
[59:09] things.
[59:09] But at the end of the day, people are suffering
out there and and this doorway through the gut,
[59:14] you know, is is is kind of interesting.
[59:16] And I I'd kind of like to spend some time
hearing your thoughts about, you know, what's
[59:20] happening out there in the space of of quote
treating the microbiome, testing the
[59:24] microbiome, probiotics, you know, personalized
probiotics, symbiotics, prebiotics, you know,
[59:31] polyphenols.
[59:31] I think that's a whole another category.
[59:33] So I I think you know, we're we're sort of I
feel like at the beginning of this dawn of the
[59:37] microbiome era.
[59:38] Even though I've been doing this for thirty
years with the training that got it, it's still
[59:42] like...
[59:42] It's still kind of like a very...
[59:45] You know, it's a very complex area, and I think
we're just beginning to understand this.
[59:48] I've been a big believer in infrared saunas for
a long
[59:50] time, but I really came to appreciate mine when
I was dealing with mold exposure over ten years
[59:54] ago.
[59:54] My sunlight and sauna became part of my daily
routine at that time, and I felt better every
[59:58] time I used it, so I never stopped.
[1:00:00] I'm still in it almost every day for
circulation recovery and managing stress.
[1:00:04] And a big part of that reason is simple, it
just feels good.
[1:00:07] All I have to do is get in, sit down, and I'm
supporting circulation recovery and my ability
[1:00:12] to manage stress.
[1:00:13] Now Sunlighten's built on that with a new
amplify red.
[1:00:17] More intense heat plus red and near infrared
light working together for cellular energy and
[1:00:22] recovery in one session.
[1:00:23] Sunlighten has been working with infrared
technology for more than twenty five years, and
[1:00:28] I like that they continue to find new ways to
build on something that already works for me so
[1:00:33] well.
[1:00:33] If you've been curious, this is the moment.
[1:00:35] Go to sunlighten.com and use the code Hyman to
save up to $2,100 plus get free shipping and
[1:00:40] other exclusive savings throughout the holiday
season.
[1:00:43] When I think about longevity, it's not just
about adding years to your life.
[1:00:47] I think about adding life to your years.
[1:00:49] And that means supporting strong muscles and
healthy energy metabolism as you age.
[1:00:54] And magnesium plays an important role in both.
[1:00:57] And that's why I recommend magnesium
breakthrough advanced ten from Biooptimizers.
[1:01:01] It's their most complete magnesium formula yet
with 10 bioavailable forms and five hundred and
[1:01:06] fifty milligrams of elemental magnesium
designed to support restful restorative sleep,
[1:01:11] muscle recovery, stress resilience, and
metabolic health.
[1:01:14] Use my link, biooptimizers.com/hymen, and use
the code hymen to save 50% off or even higher
[1:01:20] discounts for friends of the show, plus
surprise free bonuses and bigger discounts of
[1:01:25] Optimizers rolls out during certain windows.
[1:01:27] And every order is backed by their 365 money
back guarantee so you can try it with
[1:01:32] confidence.
[1:01:33] These statements have not been evaluated by the
FDA or the Food and Drug Administration.
[1:01:36] Its product is not intended to diagnose, treat,
or cure, or prevent any disease.
[1:01:40] I'd love to hear your thoughts about, you know,
people listening.
[1:01:43] Well, what do you do?
[1:01:44] Like, how do you how do you create a healthy
gut?
[1:01:46] And how do you deal with maybe finding out if
your health issues are caused by your
[1:01:50] microbiome?
[1:01:51] And then what do you do about them if you find
them?
[1:01:53] I'll I'll start with with sort of the
commercial approaches.
[1:01:57] Right?
[1:01:57] So you go online, you can find a number of
different companies that will, you know, for
[1:02:05] some amount of money, test your feces, you
know, test your...
[1:02:08] You know, see some of the fecal sample, they'll
test your microbiome, and then they'll
[1:02:12] recommend a set of probiotics because they'll
say, okay.
[1:02:14] You deviate it from what is quote unquote
healthy profile...
[1:02:18] Microbiome profile, and we can get you back
back on track.
[1:02:22] I don't believe any of that, to to be perfectly
frank.
[1:02:25] And I'll say that just simply because I know
literature.
[1:02:29] I know the state of the art in the field, and
there is no one way.
[1:02:33] There's no way to look at a microbiome and say,
you're healthy or you're not healthy.
[1:02:37] Right?
[1:02:38] Absent, like, some, like, obvious pathogen or
some obvious toxin, which is not what we're
[1:02:42] talking about here.
[1:02:43] Right?
[1:02:44] And so so, you know, I'm I'm more than
skeptical.
[1:02:49] I I think I just I just don't believe that
that's possible because I I don't...
[1:02:53] The science doesn't pack that up.
[1:02:54] Right?
[1:02:55] So what are the things that that we can do?
[1:02:57] I think the things we can do are largely what
your grandmother would have told you anyway,
[1:03:00] right, is eat a healthy diet, make sure you get
a lot of sleep, good quality sleep, exercise.
[1:03:06] There's a lot of literature I'm sure you're
familiar with on on exercise and and the
[1:03:10] microbiome.
[1:03:11] Right?
[1:03:11] Elite athletes have, you know, very interesting
microbiome configurations.
[1:03:16] And then the other one that I don't think
enough people talk about, but there's a fair
[1:03:19] amount of literature as well, is managing
stress.
[1:03:22] So stress, this is the brain to gut connection,
right, changes your your gut profile.
[1:03:27] Right?
[1:03:27] So if you can do all those easier said than
done, then that's, you know, I I think, you
[1:03:31] know, the baseline.
[1:03:32] And those are foundational and durable ways to
keep your microbiome healthy.
[1:03:38] Right?
[1:03:38] So, again, if you're eating plant based diets,
diverse plant based, you know, diet, lots of
[1:03:43] lots of fiber, you're feeding...
[1:03:46] You're giving a mic...
[1:03:47] Gut microbes the things that they love to eat,
they're gonna flourish.
[1:03:50] Right?
[1:03:51] And, again, you know, sleep, exercise, and
stress.
[1:03:55] In terms of of actual, like, or or let's just
call them interventions.
[1:04:01] Right?
[1:04:03] I think using using human milk
oligosaccharides, It's another way to feed your
[1:04:09] bacteria things that they they like.
[1:04:11] You mentioned polyphenols.
[1:04:13] Bacteria love to feed off polyphenols.
[1:04:16] Right?
[1:04:16] You know, like in, you know, green tea or
coffee.
[1:04:19] Right?
[1:04:20] But other, you know, certainly other other
sources as well.
[1:04:24] What I'm, I guess, maybe more on the fence
about are probiotics.
[1:04:28] Right?
[1:04:28] I mean, this might be the frontline.
[1:04:30] This might be, like, the most obvious.
[1:04:32] Right?
[1:04:33] But but the vast majority, almost all
probiotics that are commercially available to
[1:04:38] us were developed decades ago.
[1:04:41] They cut their lactic aspect.
[1:04:43] They come from milk and dairy products.
[1:04:45] Right?
[1:04:45] They don't come from the human gut.
[1:04:47] They they haven't, you know, evolved to be able
to network with our bodies in ways that are
[1:04:54] indigenous, our our, you know, native gut
microbes do.
[1:04:58] Right?
[1:04:58] There are a couple of products now on the
market that are human gut microbes that are
[1:05:03] commercially available.
[1:05:05] Right?
[1:05:05] And so I think those are more likely to be able
to, you know, have an effect size, have have an
[1:05:11] impact on our biology.
[1:05:13] But I think this is the future, and and and I
know more and more of these, you know, let's
[1:05:18] call them again next generation probiotics.
[1:05:20] These human derived organisms, not dairy
product organisms, are gonna come online.
[1:05:26] And I think that those are going to have a
better chance of improving gut health and then,
[1:05:32] obviously, beyond the gut, immune metabolic
neurological improvements as well.
[1:05:37] I mean, there are now prescription poop pills
for C.
[1:05:41] Diff.
[1:05:41] Right?
[1:05:41] So you can you can actually take a quote of
human poop pill.
[1:05:45] Right?
[1:05:45] There are FDA products for for C.
[1:05:47] Diff.
[1:05:48] Right?
[1:05:48] But I see...
[1:05:49] I...
[1:05:49] So what we're talking about in terms of C.
[1:05:51] Diff are clostridium difficile infections.
[1:05:53] Right?
[1:05:53] And so these are, like, these blooms of
organisms that really cause lots of of gut
[1:05:58] damage.
[1:06:00] And they often are resistant to antibiotics, so
they can become resistant to antibiotics.
[1:06:04] And so what...
[1:06:05] I I think the the medical literature is very
solid on it.
[1:06:08] There's like 50,000 or more fecal transplants
for for C.
[1:06:13] Diff.
[1:06:13] Cholesterol deficiency infections.
[1:06:15] Is that when you replace the microbiome of a
person that has this infection with a healthy
[1:06:20] microbiome, the fecal transplant therapy is
better than any f...
[1:06:26] Any other FDA approved therapy, any antibiotic.
[1:06:28] Dramatically.
[1:06:29] Dramatically.
[1:06:30] Yep.
[1:06:30] Over ninety percent success rate, which most
FDA approved drugs don't work in ninety percent
[1:06:34] of the people that take them.
[1:06:35] Right?
[1:06:36] Not even close.
[1:06:37] Yeah.
[1:06:37] It...
[1:06:37] It's more like forty, fifty percent.
[1:06:39] Right?
[1:06:39] And so I think that's a success story.
[1:06:41] It's clearly a success story.
[1:06:43] Right?
[1:06:43] But that that environment of, you know, like
this bloom of a of a weed, if you will, right,
[1:06:50] you know, that's that's killing all the flowers
around it, that...
[1:06:53] That's a unique situation.
[1:06:55] Right?
[1:06:55] Again, seed infections are a handful of other
bacterial infections that were essentially
[1:07:01] putting out the fire with a fecal transplant.
[1:07:05] You know, I think it's it's a miracle.
[1:07:07] I think it's a success story, right, for for
the microbiome research.
[1:07:11] I'm not sure how much that translates into
autism or Parkinson's or or Crohn's disease.
[1:07:16] Right?
[1:07:16] Because those studies are being...
[1:07:18] You alluded to them.
[1:07:19] Right?
[1:07:19] And we still haven't, like, cracked that code.
[1:07:21] Right?
[1:07:22] We still don't know what the...
[1:07:23] What is the optimal donor?
[1:07:25] How much do we have to dose?
[1:07:27] How often do we have to dose?
[1:07:28] Do we need durable colonization?
[1:07:30] Do we need to really change things back to
mind, or can you just put it out and everything
[1:07:34] goes back home?
[1:07:35] All that's still being still being figured out.
[1:07:37] Right?
[1:07:37] But the basic biology, the basic system of an
infection versus a chronic condition are also
[1:07:46] very different.
[1:07:46] Actually, when you're trying to reverse an
outcome.
[1:07:49] Right?
[1:07:49] So, again, let's just go back to Parkinson's.
[1:07:51] I'm gonna contrast this with somebody
previously in autism.
[1:07:53] That's why I asked about the the time
component.
[1:07:55] It was for this reason.
[1:07:56] Right?
[1:07:56] In Parkinson's, again, there's death of neurons
in particular brain regions like the substantia
[1:08:02] nigra pars compact.
[1:08:03] Right?
[1:08:03] There's there's...
[1:08:03] Once the neurons are are dead, there's just no
going back unless you're gonna put stem cells
[1:08:07] into the brain or something.
[1:08:08] Nothing in the gut is gonna make those those
nerve cells.
[1:08:11] So there's there's actual damage, right, to the
brain.
[1:08:14] Like, something is, you know, for lack of a
better term, broken in the brain.
[1:08:18] Right?
[1:08:18] So you gotta fix that.
[1:08:19] Nothing to do in the gut is gonna is gonna
change that.
[1:08:22] In autism, I think condition's a little bit
different.
[1:08:24] There there is no obvious damage in the
autistic brain.
[1:08:29] Right?
[1:08:30] To me, that's more of a chemistry issue than
than a a pathological issue.
[1:08:35] Oh, there's neuroinflammation on these kids'
brains.
[1:08:37] Right?
[1:08:38] Well, can see an inflamed...
[1:08:39] But again, inflammation is toggled back and
forth.
[1:08:41] Right?
[1:08:41] You can turn on
[1:08:42] Right.
[1:08:42] It's modifiable.
[1:08:43] Right.
[1:08:43] Death of neurons is is is a one way...
[1:08:46] Is a cul de sac.
[1:08:47] Right?
[1:08:48] And so so anything that's modifiable, I think,
now puts it into the context where a gut or,
[1:08:54] let's say, other interventions, we'll come with
a gut, you know, has a chance of improving or
[1:08:59] reversing symptoms.
[1:09:01] Right?
[1:09:01] And so, again, you know, the stories I've heard
very similar to to the ones you're you're
[1:09:06] recounting here are that, you know, gut
interventions tend to have within days or weeks
[1:09:12] really dramatic improvements in acute
behaviors.
[1:09:15] You mentioned aggression.
[1:09:16] I think that's a very obvious one.
[1:09:17] Right?
[1:09:18] Is that you can see this, you know, aggression
or irritability phenotype change pretty
[1:09:23] rapidly.
[1:09:24] What I'd like to see are longer term studies on
some of those same individuals in a, you know,
[1:09:30] clinical setting where we can measure as much
of those objective, you know, endpoints as
[1:09:36] possible.
[1:09:36] What I'd like to see are longer term studies
because, you know, if a child is irritable,
[1:09:41] they're not learning in class.
[1:09:43] Right?
[1:09:44] They're not developing relationships.
[1:09:45] Right?
[1:09:46] Same with...
[1:09:46] I would put anxiety in the exact same category.
[1:09:49] Right?
[1:09:49] If a person is anxious, which is prevalent in
in autism.
[1:09:52] Right?
[1:09:53] Or they have attention issues prevalent in
autism.
[1:09:56] Right?
[1:09:57] They're not learning.
[1:09:58] They're not building social bonds or or
relationships.
[1:10:01] And if we remove...
[1:10:03] And this is a question.
[1:10:04] Right?
[1:10:04] If we remove those constraints, right, if I'm
not so concerned about my GI issues or I'm not
[1:10:11] held back by my anxiety or I can focus better,
right, over time, do I now improve on some of
[1:10:18] those other core autism traits?
[1:10:23] You know, do...
[1:10:24] Again, my relationships, are they getting
better?
[1:10:26] Is my cognitive ability improving as well?
[1:10:30] Right?
[1:10:30] So I think you kinda need to remove that veil,
if you will, first, and...
[1:10:34] But then it takes time to learn.
[1:10:36] It takes time to develop, you know, those
social skills.
[1:10:39] Right?
[1:10:40] And so so, again, I think that's still a gap in
the...
[1:10:42] In in in at least the medical literature is
what are the long term benefits?
[1:10:47] Right?
[1:10:47] Not just the acute benefits like aggression.
[1:10:49] What are the long term benefits in terms of of
social engagement, cognitive improvements?
[1:10:55] Again, just learning in school, so on and
[1:10:57] so Yeah.
[1:10:58] Well, this whole field is so fascinating to me,
and I think, you know, your work is really
[1:11:01] looking at how the future is really about, you
know, personalized approaches.
[1:11:06] It's it's targeted.
[1:11:08] It's it's not just shotgun approaches.
[1:11:10] Take this probiotic, everything's fine.
[1:11:11] So it's I think that that that's kind of I
think what we're learning more and more about
[1:11:15] is how do we create personalized medicine in
general, and how do we create personalized
[1:11:19] microbiome treatments, and personalized
treatments for different conditions, and deal
[1:11:22] with the multifactorial nature of things.
[1:11:24] It's not just one thing sometimes.
[1:11:25] So it's it's kind of it's kind of an amazing
moment to be in medicine, I'd say.
[1:11:30] And and I think, you know, for people listening
the basics go.
[1:11:33] Right?
[1:11:33] Stay away from drugs that hurt your gut.
[1:11:35] Like, don't overdo antibiotics and acid
blockers.
[1:11:38] Know, try to breastfeed if you can.
[1:11:40] You try not to have a seizure.
[1:11:41] We can avoid it, you know, for a baby.
[1:11:44] You know, do do eat a wide variety of plants
like this.
[1:11:47] Somebody says 30 plants a week to actually get
a diverse level of microbiome support from
[1:11:53] fiber and polyphenols.
[1:11:54] It all works.
[1:11:55] And I think, you know, are there are doctors
out there like me who are kind of on the edge
[1:12:00] and doing things experimentally, but we try not
to do things that are harmful and try to be
[1:12:04] supportive.
[1:12:05] And and and we do see remarkable changes across
the spectrum of diseases by by treating the
[1:12:10] gut.
[1:12:11] And your work has really been a lot of the
leading light in helping us see that there's a
[1:12:15] there there.
[1:12:16] That there's something actually going on and
and kind of proving unequivocally that, you
[1:12:20] know, this is not in people's head, that this
is probably in their gut.
[1:12:24] So Yeah.
[1:12:25] Again, you know, microbiome is like an organ,
if you will.
[1:12:29] Right?
[1:12:29] You know?
[1:12:30] And they're just...
[1:12:31] It is foreign.
[1:12:32] It is a foreign organ, but it has the metabolic
capacity.
[1:12:35] The microbiome has the metabolic capacity of
the liver.
[1:12:37] It has the same mass as the as the adult brain.
[1:12:40] Right?
[1:12:40] I mean, this is an organ in our body.
[1:12:42] It just comes from from the environment.
[1:12:44] Right?
[1:12:44] And, you know, one of the things that I that I
you know, when people ask for it, what can you
[1:12:49] do about your microbiome?
[1:12:50] Again, I think there's, you know, as we just
talked about, I think there's a number of
[1:12:53] things you could do.
[1:12:54] But I always try and tell people, get ahead of
the problem.
[1:12:57] Right?
[1:12:57] Is the microbiome is not a pharmaceutic.
[1:12:59] It's not a drug.
[1:13:00] It may be someday, but it isn't today.
[1:13:02] Right?
[1:13:03] So we still...
[1:13:03] There's a lot that we still need to learn about
the microbiome to turn the into drugs or to
[1:13:09] drug the microbiome directly, which is
something we didn't talk about.
[1:13:12] I think it's also quite interesting.
[1:13:14] Right?
[1:13:14] But because the microbiome sort of, like, tunes
our body, all these different systems.
[1:13:20] Right?
[1:13:20] It wasn't designed to reverse disease.
[1:13:23] We're trying to engineer it to do that, but it
wasn't designed to do that.
[1:13:26] Right?
[1:13:27] So by getting ahead the problem, what I mean is
don't wait till you have diabetes before you
[1:13:31] stop before you start taking, you know, your
your gut health seriously, or don't wait till
[1:13:35] you have, you know, any condition before...
[1:13:37] Or cancer or any condition.
[1:13:39] Right?
[1:13:39] Is, you know, there are things you can do today
to improve your gut health, to improve your
[1:13:44] microbiome health.
[1:13:45] And the payoff is long term is, you know, is
your health in in, you know, the decades that
[1:13:52] are still ahead of you.
[1:13:53] Right?
[1:13:53] And so I think prevent...
[1:13:54] That's not something we don't do well enough in
this country, but the microbiome is is an
[1:13:59] avenue or is a test case where I think we can
prevent a lot of adverse health outcomes in
[1:14:05] later years by taking care of our microbiomes
now.
[1:14:07] Well, that's a that's a beautiful place to
stop.
[1:14:09] Thank you so much, Sarkis for your work.
[1:14:11] Everybody who's listening want to learn more
about his work, can go to Sarkis,
[1:14:15] sarkis.caltech.edu and learn all about his
research.
[1:14:21] I hope you get lots of funding and get lots of
support because what you're doing is so
[1:14:25] important and I think the faster we can learn
about this, the better we can do a job of
[1:14:30] helping people recover from some of these
really tractable chronic illnesses that often
[1:14:35] start in the gut.
[1:14:36] Thank you,
[1:14:37] Mark.
[1:14:37] Hey, everybody.
[1:14:38] It's doctor Mark here.
[1:14:39] I'm so excited to share that my new book is
officially available for preorder today.
[1:14:43] After more than thirty years of practicing
medicine and caring for tens of thousands of
[1:14:47] patients, I've written the book that brings
everything together that I've learned about
[1:14:52] helping people get healthy and stay healthy as
they age.
[1:14:54] It's called a 100.
[1:14:56] What to do today to live a 100 healthy years.
[1:14:58] It's a whole body guide to living a 100 healthy
years.
[1:15:01] It's grounded in a new understanding of how our
bodies work.
[1:15:04] It's the new map of the body.
[1:15:05] And inside, I walk you through the seven core
systems that drive your health from your gut
[1:15:10] and hormones to how your cells make energy and
help you understand the signals your body's
[1:15:14] been sending you all along.
[1:15:16] Now a lot of what's in the book, learned the
hard way through my own body.
[1:15:19] When I got sick, the medicine that I trained in
did not have any of the answers I needed.
[1:15:25] So I had to go looking for them myself, and
that search became my life's work.
[1:15:29] This book brings together decades of my
learning from my patients, from the scientific
[1:15:34] research and scouring that, from the things I
got wrong, and the things I had to rethink
[1:15:37] along the way.
[1:15:38] I don't want you to have to struggle the way I
did to find those answers.
[1:15:42] So much of our health is shaped by what happens
outside your doctor's office.
[1:15:45] And I want you to feel confident knowing how to
care for yourself every day.
[1:15:49] I put so much of myself into this book, and I'm
really excited to finally share it with you.
[1:15:53] It's really my life's work.
[1:15:54] It's my capstone of my career.
[1:15:55] I put everything I know.
[1:15:56] It's finally available for order today.
[1:15:58] Preorder.
[1:15:59] Everywhere books are sold.
[1:16:00] Go get a copy.
[1:16:01] Please support me, and this is my life's work.
[1:16:03] So I think you're gonna love it.