Transcript
[0:00] Lodro Rinzler has a knack
[0:02] for presenting the Buddhist teachings
in an incredibly relatable way.
[0:07] Through contemporary references,
humor, and softness,
[0:10] he's made the practice of meditation
accessible for a lot of people.
[0:14] Lodro worked on the first Obama campaign.
[0:17] He started MNDFL
Meditation Studios in New York,
[0:22] has taught widely around the world,
and authored a number of books,
[0:26] including the best-selling
The Buddha Walks Into a Bar.
[0:29] His current book,
You Are Good, You Are Enough,
[0:32] focuses on the teachings
of basic goodness,
[0:34] which feel particularly potent
[0:37] in our current culture of relentless
criticism of self and others.
[0:42] At This Very Moment,
[0:44] Lodro teaches extensively online,
has a podcast about comic books,
[0:49] and lives with his wife, daughter,
and two dogs in upstate New York.
[0:53] I'm your host, Ivan Bercholz.
[0:56] Hey Lodro. Hi.
[0:59] Hey Lodro.
[1:01] Hi! Thanks for having me on the show
[1:03] It’s great to sit down with you in a very formal setting
[1:07] compared to every other time we’ve ever sat down.
[1:10] Literally every other time, yeah.
[1:12] And it’s unfortunately too early for whiskey
[1:14] so we have to settle with whatever hydrating beverage we have in front of us.
[1:20] Yeah, I’m not privy to whatever intro Ivan did to this
[1:24] this particular episode, but I will share that
[1:27] Ivan and I have known eachoter for the
[1:28] majority of our lives,
I would say at this point.
[1:30] Hey Lodro. Hi.
[1:31] I want to say we met when I was around 18.
[1:33] Does that sound right to you?
That sounds right.
[1:35] Yeah. Well over 20 years,
whatever it is. Yeah.
[1:38] And through various Buddhist circles.
[1:40] And then Sara,
[1:44] your sister, and I were living
in Boston at the same time. We're friends.
[1:47] So every time you were in Boston,
we would see you.
[1:50] And yeah,
Matt Murphy’s sort of became our home base,
[1:53] our IP for whiskey and friendship.
[1:56] And of course that's spiraled
into other endeavors, and—
[1:59] and not just drinking whiskey.
[2:01] But, you know,
I think that there is— it's like,
[2:03] um, very sweet long friendship
that we've had over these many decades.
[2:08] Totally. And one of the things
[2:09] that I've really appreciated
about you throughout our—
[2:13] the tenure of our friendship
is that you've never been afraid
[2:16] to jump into situations
and use humor to lighten up a room.
[2:19] And— and I want that quality of ease
[2:22] in this thing, so I want to start off:
do you have any good jokes?
[2:25] Do you have a joke to tell us?
[2:26] Oh my God.
[2:28] I mean, here's the thing,
because now I've got this three-year-old,
[2:31] so all of my jokes are like
three-year-olds also, like, you know that.
[2:35] Yeah, exactly.
[2:37] Some of them do. I'm, you know,
I skew towards sort of the bizarre.
[2:41] So one of my favorites is,
um, a man comes home
[2:45] and he finds his roommate sitting there
on the couch,
[2:48] and his roommate now has a pumpkin
for a head.
[2:51] And the man says,
[2:54] oh, hey, I couldn't help but notice
you have a pumpkin for a head now.
[2:58] What happened today?
Then he goes, oh, yeah, this.
[3:00] Well, here's the thing.
I found a lamp and I rubbed it.
[3:02] A genie came out, and I,
um, got three wishes.
[3:07] And he says, oh man, that's incredible.
What happened?
[3:09] As well, first I—
I wish for all the wealth imaginable.
[3:11] He goes, what— what happened then?
[3:13] He says, go check the closet.
[3:14] He goes, opens the closet.
[3:16] Stacks of hundred dollar bills
[3:18] just keep flowing out of the closet,
just packed with all the money.
[3:21] And he says, Oh, wow,
that's really incredible.
[3:24] Would you wish, you know,
for your second wish?
[3:28] And he said, Oh,
I just wished for incredible food,
[3:31] whatever I could imagine,
which is always be in the fridge.
[3:33] He goes, what happened? He goes,
go check the fridge. He opens the door.
[3:36] There's just food overflowing,
all the most succulent,
[3:39] you know, fruit and desserts
and cheeses and all the things.
[3:44] And he comes back and he goes, Okay,
so what happened with the third wish?
[3:46] And the guy goes, Well,
third wish I sort of messed up,
[3:48] because what happened is I wished
for a pumpkin head.
[3:57] I think that, you know—
how am I gonna relate this to Buddhism?
[4:01] I think that there's always something,
you know,
[4:03] from like the Buddhist perspective.
[4:04] Like, I try explain the word samsara,
the cycle of suffering, the other day,
[4:08] and it's like, you know, it's the fact
that we're always wanting something more.
[4:11] And it's like, even when we get it,
really, you know what I want now?
[4:14] And we could just— when we get
everything we want, we're still
[4:17] going to come up with something new,
you know, and then we regret it.
[4:19] Great, yeah.
[4:20] Now I have a pumpkin head.
And then we work with the pumpkin head.
[4:25] That, yeah, now it's the source
of suffering, you know.
[4:28] That's— that's samsara for you.
[4:29] That's literally it in a nutshell.
[4:33] So in this podcast,
I like to get to know the—
[4:38] the interviewee in all of their forms.
[4:41] So I'd like to start
with some childhood stories,
[4:44] the who, what, where,
whens of your childhood.
[4:47] And yeah, tell me a little bit
about where you grew up, your household,
[4:51] all those things that made little Lodro
or your birth name,
[4:57] Paul, who you were.
[5:01] Yeah, I'm trying to remember
[5:03] if we've talked about this either way,
we'll dive into it.
[5:06] But I was raised in a Buddhist household.
[5:10] So my parents had been practicing
Tibetan Buddhism
[5:13] in lineage of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche
before I came around.
[5:17] So it was always just in the household.
And the story that they tell
[5:19] is that they opened the door one day
to call me in to dinner, and I was...
[5:25] You and I grew up around high school age.
[5:28] We saw the Blair Witch Project,
[5:29] which has this creepy image of burned
and collective brains from that moment
[5:34] of someone just facing the wall,
staring at it.
[5:37] I imagine that's basically
what they found.
[5:39] I was sitting there just sort of at
six years old staring at the wall.
[5:43] And they slowly closed the door.
[5:44] And then when dinner was ready,
they came and got me.
[5:47] And so what was going on over there?
And I said, I was meditating.
[5:54] And they said, OK,
so what does that mean to you?
[5:57] And I said, well,
I was noticing that I was breathing.
[6:01] And when I got distracted,
I came back to noticing I was breathing.
[6:05] And they're like, yeah, that's it, right?
[6:07] It is to some extent.
[6:08] It's as simple as that.
[6:10] And so they found like, okay,
we could encourage this.
[6:15] It was sort of in the air
of my New York City upbringing.
[6:19] And so when I was 11, I started doing what
were called Shambhala training weekends.
[6:23] So there are weekend retreats and continue
to do that every couple of years until
[6:27] I ultimately hit this point where I was,
this is the embarrassing part of it,
[6:34] I was actually contemplating what I wanted
to do for a college essay.
[6:38] I was like a junior in high school.
[6:40] My parents were like, well, you know,
there's this really great monastic program
[6:43] at Gampo Abbey in Nova Scotia
where you take temporary
[6:45] ordination as a monastic.
You shave your head.
[6:48] You take the robes, the vows,
the whole nine yards.
[6:51] I was like,
I've got nothing else going this summer.
[6:52] That sounds like a great essay.
So, you know, in retrospect, the number
[6:57] of times I've done it for the story,
so to speak, since this is probably
[7:01] where it started
because it was a great essay.
[7:03] But it really changed my life
because there was this moment
[7:07] where I was doing a walking meditation
about three weeks in.
[7:12] And they had these beautiful like
wall-length windows.
[7:17] And you just see the ocean out there.
[7:19] You're really out in the middle
of the cliffs in Nova Scotia.
[7:22] And this whale breached
and then came crashing down into the sea.
[7:27] And it stopped my mind for a moment.
[7:30] And the thought that came up next was,
[7:32] this is not something
my parents have done.
[7:34] This is now my path.
They had never been there.
[7:37] They had never done the monastic.
All of a sudden,
[7:39] it was no longer a family.
[7:41] It was like my path had now begun
in earnest.
[7:45] And I'd quote, unquote,
individuate, I guess.
[7:48] And I never went back.
[7:50] As you noted, I was like born Paul.
[7:51] I took what in Buddhism is called refuge
when I was six.
[7:55] So I received the name Lodro.
[7:56] But when I went to the monastery,
I was asked to adopt
[8:00] it along with the monks' robes and vows.
And I just never went back.
[8:05] I just called myself Lodro from then
on and went on to go to university.
[8:11] It did turn into a good essay.
[8:13] But the whole plan backfired
[8:16] because all I did when I got
to university was Buddhism.
[8:18] All I did was just study and practice,
and I sort of just kept going from there.
[8:24] It's such an interesting threshold
when you're doing what you're doing
[8:30] because it's what's happening
in your household.
[8:33] You're doing
that because you want to be doing that.
[8:36] And I remember that transition in my life
as well and how powerful that was.
[8:40] I mean,
we have a pretty similar story with this.
[8:43] I was going to ask,
do you have a moment like
[8:44] that for you where you're like, oh,
this is not my mom and dad's thing?
[8:49] Totally. What was it?
[8:51] So I went, my dad brought me
[8:53] to visit Thinley Norbu Rinpoche,
actually against my will.
[8:55] I didn't want to go.
[8:57] You know,
meditation happened in the household
[8:59] and I did it every once in a while.
[9:02] And my dad asked me to do him a favor
[9:04] and go visit this guy that he'd
been spending time with.
[9:07] How old are you in this story?
[9:09] 15, 14, 14.
[9:13] And I went and it had nothing
to do with the teachings.
[9:16] It had to do with seeing somebody
who embodied this special quality
[9:22] and being like, what's going on there?
[9:25] I want to know more about that.
[9:26] So for me, it wasn't like contemplating
impermanence or reading something powerful
[9:30] where I really wanted
to know more about Buddhism.
[9:33] It was seeing somebody
who embodied the teaching so fully
[9:36] and being like, I want to be around this.
[9:40] I want to know more about this.
[9:42] So for you at Gampo Abbey,
what was it other than that whale?
[9:46] What was it that made the teachings
of Buddhism
[9:50] or the practice of meditation land
for you and make you want to carry
[9:58] that forth for the rest of your life?
Oh, that's a great question.
[10:01] I don't know what it was other
than just the deep immersion in practice.
[10:05] I mean, there were great teachers.
Don't get me wrong.
[10:09] I think your story there
[10:11] is so perfect because I've had moments
like that with teachers.
[10:13] I'm like, oh, this is the living,
[10:16] breathing thing that I would like
to emulate, actually.
[10:19] Like, this is where I'd like
to go with this.
[10:21] I don't think it was that.
[10:23] In this particular experience,
no knock on the teachers.
[10:25] Again, they were wonderful.
But it was just the transformative
[10:28] experience of doing weeks of practice.
[10:30] It's a thing that I don't think
is as emphasized in today's world,
[10:35] you know, however many decades later.
How old am I?
[10:38] Yeah, like, you know, again, that's 25,
26 years later or something like that.
[10:42] It's one of those things
where I think people might go away
[10:45] for a weekend
or they might go away for a week.
[10:48] But to do a month of meditation,
it really does transform you.
[10:53] I do feel like it's for people who are,
quote unquote, serious about practice.
[10:57] I highly encourage it because it's unlike
any other experience on Earth.
[11:01] It's just the experience that you get
into in a retreat environment,
[11:06] it's like we instead of having about 10%
of our time for practice
[11:10] and 90% for worldly endeavors
and distractions and things,
[11:13] it sort of gets inverted
where maybe you've got 10% time for those,
[11:17] you know,
call your mother or something like that.
[11:19] But 90% of the time really is spent
in practice and study.
[11:23] And to immerse our mind in that,
[11:25] not just for a couple of days,
but for a month is really quite powerful.
[11:28] So I think it's just at that formative
[11:31] age, just transform me
from the inside out.
[11:32] Yeah, yeah.
[11:34] It's such a powerful experience
to do that.
[11:36] I— I wouldn't trade the deeper
meditation experiences that I've had.
[11:41] And there's something
about just the amount of time, you know.
[11:44] It's not like there's no one aha moment.
[11:48] It's just like the—
the continuity of boredom and just like
[11:54] really getting past the— the waves
of what you want to do and doing—
[11:59] doing it whether you want to do it or not,
that really, for me,
[12:03] had had such an impact,
and in longer retreat.
[12:05] Yeah, I'm with you on that.
[12:08] It's people like, how many days—
hours a day do you meditate?
[12:11] It's like, well, you know,
almost all of them.
[12:13] But the thing is, it's not like
you then go and get to watch Netflix.
[12:17] Yeah, right.
[12:19] Like, when you get up from the cushion
and you're making dinner,
[12:22] your mind is still your mind.
[12:23] It's not like it is something different.
[12:25] Like, you're still in retreat.
[12:27] You're still either present with the thing
or grappling with thoughts,
[12:31] just like
you were with the meditation cushion.
[12:34] Is that sort of environment
is just so rare in today's world.
[12:39] Relating to like the teachings
and outside of meditation experience,
[12:45] do you remember your first sense
of like existential dread,
[12:47] where you like were looking
for just the philosophy that made sense
[12:53] for you or something,
because you were like,
[12:56] oh, this is like where you started to take
those things a little more seriously?
[13:01] Because I— I've been talking to a bunch
of older Dharma practitioners now, and—
[13:05] and they lament the fact that young
people seem to be too distracted
[13:09] to have existential dread.
[13:11] And so I've been thinking
about that in my life,
[13:13] um, and that's not always the case.
Did you have a moment?
[13:17] Definitely no.
[13:18] Yeah, I didn't.
[13:20] I don't think.
- Seems like a lot of them did, okay.
[13:23] - I wonder,
and this is to add to your research here,
[13:26] I wonder if you might discover
that some people of our generation
[13:31] have less of an existential societal dread
[13:33] and more of a personal
crisis falling apart.
[13:36] For me, my father started dying on me
when I was 14.
[13:40] He had a seizure and then they had to go
in and do some stuff with the arteries
[13:46] and put him on a bunch of pills, and then
too much blood was getting to the head.
[13:49] Two years later, it was a stroke.
And then it sort of just like continued
[13:52] to be every other year
there was something.
[13:54] At one point,
he just fell and shattered his spine.
[13:58] There's like everything imaginable,
this poor man.
[14:01] And he died when I was 29.
That sounds right to me.
[14:06] So about 15 years of sort of like,
[14:08] well, he would recover
and we'd be good for like six months.
[14:11] And then something else would happen.
And always out of the blue.
[14:15] One thing led to another
until finally it was pneumonia,
[14:18] essentially, in his weakened state,
that— that got him.
[14:20] And I think that, you know,
there was that thing of like,
[14:24] oh, I'm grappling
with the potential loss of my father
[14:27] from a young age that sort of probably
helped propel me further into Buddhism.
[14:32] But it was more of a personal thing
as opposed to an existential dread like,
[14:34] oh my God, we're all die.
I can't believe it.
[14:36] Was like, this has been really hard on me,
and I want to be able to work
[14:40] with my mind,
and I will say this for meditation
[14:44] that like this marker every two years
or so, I noticed that I showed up better.
[14:49] How much of that is growing up
and being more of an adult
[14:52] and how much of that is
meditation practice is debatable.
[14:54] But I do think I grew
more and more present.
[14:57] So instead of trying to run around
and fix things and get second opinions
[15:01] and get him the best food that he needed
because of X, Y,
[15:04] and Z in the hospital, it was just,
can I be there with him?
[15:07] So when he did finally pass, I was there.
[15:10] It was me and his partner at the time.
[15:12] And, and, you know, it was as far
as these things go, a good death.
[15:17] And I credit my meditation practice
as the thing that allowed me to not escape
[15:23] or exit that moment to just be there 100%.
[15:25] And for him to feel seen and heard as he,
his faculties began to go.
[15:30] So, you know,
I think that there's something powerful
[15:34] to that, but it's a little bit probably
different than an existential crisis.
[15:37] I think it's a similar thing.
[15:39] It's like
when you have either a personal hardship
[15:43] or you're going through that with somebody
else that just pulls
[15:47] you out of your ordinary
thinking about reality,
[15:51] that pulls you out of just like,
I'm going to do this,
[15:54] this, this, and this today,
and makes you look at the world
[15:59] and impermanence in a more real way.
[16:05] Yeah, I think that's real.
[16:08] And I think it's probably
more common than we suspect.
[16:11] I mean,
I love this line of inquiry for you.
[16:13] I will be curious
to see what you find out.
[16:17] Because I do think that there's
always going to be a nudge for people.
[16:20] I remember my first job out of college,
[16:23] I was accepted to be the executive
director of the Boston Shambhala Center.
[16:30] And I was 22. I knew nothing.
[16:32] I had a lot of big dreams
and a lot of willingness
[16:35] to work with the community
and learn things on the job.
[16:39] But I just remember standing there
at the doorway of my office
[16:42] watching people come in going,
[16:43] what do any of these people
have in common?
[16:46] It was a really diverse group.
[16:47] And it gradually encouraged me.
[16:49] It was like something went wrong.
They're suffering in some way.
[16:53] There's something that nudged them.
They were like,
[16:56] well, the drinking didn't help
and the online shopping didn't help.
[16:58] I might as well just try meditation.
I'll give it a try.
[17:01] And that was basically
where people were at.
[17:02] Like, honestly, I've tried everything
else, so maybe this will help.
[17:06] And, you know, the people that stuck
clearly believed that it did. Yeah.
[17:09] When did you go from your own personal
inquiry to working with others?
[17:14] Like, when did you start teaching people,
[17:15] working with groups,
whether that was, you know,
[17:18] obviously we're always in the learning
process ourselves.
[17:20] But when did you start sharing with others
and working with others as students or,
[17:25] you know, in the capacity of teaching?
[17:28] It's an interesting question.
[17:29] I love the way you also phrase it.
[17:31] And like, also, by the way,
[17:32] we're all still like learning now too,
right?
[17:34] Like I study with Dza Kilung Rinpoche.
[17:36] You know,
I have a pretty active course of study
[17:38] and program that I do with him
and a number of hours of practice
[17:41] I do every day and things like that.
So it's like, it's ongoing.
[17:44] But I went from the monastery over
to Wesleyan University
[17:50] and it was the first time in my life
I had been without a Buddhist community.
[17:55] So I put up posters all around campus
[17:56] and was like,
who wants to meditate with me?
[17:58] And everyone descended
into this college dorm,
[18:01] like this, not dorm room,
like a common room.
[18:04] And I think we even got like
some makeshift cushions.
[18:09] Maybe just pulled them off
the living room couches or whatever.
[18:12] But anyway, there's a small group.
[18:15] And they were like,
cool, so how do we do it?
[18:17] I was like, oh, I thought
you would just know how to meditate.
[18:21] Let me get some teachers in.
[18:22] So I started contacting
local Buddhist groups and saying,
[18:25] hey, can someone come out?
[18:26] And we just had
sort of rotating cast come through.
[18:28] Until people basically got tired
of the commute and were like, hey, listen,
[18:32] you've done the prerequisites
for a teacher training.
[18:34] Just go do this one.
[18:37] So within a number of months,
I sort of got ushered
[18:40] into this teacher training
and learned how to give
[18:42] the most preliminary
meditation instruction
[18:45] and did sort of a messy job
of it for a while.
[18:48] Messy just like I kept repeating
the same things over and over again.
[18:51] I didn't have the level of confidence
[18:53] that I would say that I eventually
grew into because I was still learning.
[18:58] And figuring out
how to explain any of this.
[19:00] But I did that for a number of years.
[19:02] So by the time I got out of college,
I was sort of already starting
[19:05] to teach more and give talks
and things like that.
[19:08] So, you know, I'm 43 now, I was 18 then,
25 years of really just like
[19:14] trying my best to explain
and translate essentially this esoteric
[19:18] ancient tradition into something
that feels modern and accessible.
[19:22] So I've been doing it for a long time.
[19:24] And as you noted,
like when you start teaching
[19:26] when you're 18, there is still like,
you're still growing up as a person.
[19:30] And you know,
you're still figuring stuff out.
[19:32] You're still dating,
you're still going out
[19:35] to bars with friends, you're still doing
all the things that you normally do.
[19:38] So I feel like there's so many different
evolutions of my own teaching path.
[19:42] Like even when we did the first book
with Shambhala Publications,
[19:46] it came out in 2012,
The Buddha Walks Into a Bar.
[19:50] Like that did really well,
because it was unique
[19:52] to a particular generation
of people in their 20s,
[19:56] 30s who are figuring their stuff out.
[19:58] I very much was in that place.
[20:00] And I look back
on it and there's some things in there.
[20:02] I'm sort of like, oh gosh,
I would maybe 20th anniversary,
[20:05] a magician
or something could edit some of that out.
[20:07] But you know, I mean,
[20:08] there's a whole chapter that references
the Honey Badger YouTube video.
[20:13] That was a sensation at the time.
[20:14] Like it just feels like an outdated—
If no one knows that reference, bless.
[20:18] But like, you know,
you can go Google YouTube Honey Badger
[20:22] or something like that come up.
[20:23] Honey Badger don't give a shit,
I think that's what it was.
[20:25] Anyway, but like,
you know, it was of a time.
[20:28] So I look back on some of these things,
and it's like, oh, it's so interesting
[20:32] because every few years it just feels like
I— I'm starting to turn into new version
[20:36] of a different type of teacher.
[20:38] But, uh, as you said,
that's really just because I keep learning
[20:41] and studying and going retreat as well.
[20:43] Yeah, and like you said,
at that particular time
[20:46] you were speaking to— like,
you came into this space
[20:49] as like a precocious person
in the mindfulness space.
[20:52] And— and people were relating
to what you were saying
[20:57] because you were saying it in a voice
that sounded like having a conversation
[21:01] with a friend, not like being talked down
to, but being talked to, um.
[21:06] And— and I think that really resonated
with people your own age, but also
[21:13] surprisingly, a lot of older people
who didn't see themselves as experts
[21:18] and felt like the casual way
in which you were speaking about this path
[21:24] from a peer level
instead of from a top-down
[21:28] level allowed people to hear it in a way
that they couldn't otherwise.
[21:32] And I'd love to hear some stories
about that period of time
[21:35] when you were working with that material
and, you know, kind of starting your life
[21:41] as a public person, you know,
as like having a public persona
[21:45] and just what that stage
of your life looked like.
[21:48] Yeah, happy to.
[21:50] I also wonder if you're baiting me into
the story, but I will share the story.
[21:57] So it was a different time in publishing,
first of all.
[22:02] I think we just had to acknowledge it.
Totally.
[22:04] This is like pre-social media
being an impact.
[22:07] There was, I think, Facebook,
maybe Instagram at the start.
[22:10] I don't remember exactly.
I think maybe Twitter.
[22:13] But it's not like it was, oh,
this person has 100,000 followers, thus
[22:16] they will be able to sell to a following
and we should invest in their idea.
[22:20] It was, here's an unknown 20-something
[22:23] who has a nice proposal,
but is anyone going to buy this book?
[22:27] And this is no shade to anyone,
but I sent it to a couple of publishers
[22:31] and all three said no thank you,
including Shambhala Pubs.
[22:36] And then I think it was some marketing
seminar where they were like,
[22:38] we've got nothing for young,
spiritual, but not religious people.
[22:43] And y'all came back and were like,
actually, let's give this a go.
[22:47] We will not pay you any real money
for this, but we will absolutely back it.
[22:50] And I was like, done, I'm in.
And it's fine.
[22:55] I don't do this for the large advances
or something.
[22:59] It was such a thrill to sit down
and just try to write a book that I felt
[23:05] was going to open up a conversation
that I wasn't finding anywhere else.
[23:09] And I feel like that's always
been the books I'm trying to do.
[23:11] It's like, what conversation am I starting
to have just within my own community
[23:16] of people I work with as meditation
students, my friends, etc.?
[23:20] And how can I make
that into a larger conversation?
[23:22] Because I want to make
that important societal impact.
[23:27] So we had that conversation
through the Buddha Walks into a Bar.
[23:31] And as you noted, a lot of people
really responded positively.
[23:34] I think sort of...
[23:39] I also, because I was in my 20s
and doing adult things,
[23:43] like running nonprofits and writing books,
I was always dressing up a lot.
[23:47] So I sort of had this bow tie thing,
and everyone knew the bow tie thing.
[23:50] So I was getting recognized
on the New York subway.
[23:53] And it was the early days of Twitter
where people would take a photo
[23:55] and be like, look,
it's Lodro Rinzler on the subway.
[23:56] I was like, oh, man,
I hope I didn't say anything embarrassing
[23:58] because I definitely had two drinks in me.
[24:01] So it was very early days
of that sort of attention.
[24:04] I was like, that's really weird.
And the story
[24:06] that I was going to reference before
is like you and I were out one night
[24:08] and someone like sent over drinks
from across the bar.
[24:14] And you're like, what the fuck is this?
[24:18] You're like, I need to go talk
to these people. And we're like, oh, yeah,
[24:20] that's the guy that teaches meditation.
He wrote that book.
[24:24] So, you know, it was very bizarre.
[24:26] Because that's not what I expected
or even sought after.
[24:30] I sat there on publication day
and I had the thought,
[24:34] if there's one person, one young person
who starts meditating because I wrote
[24:37] this book and they keep meditating
and they go through their life
[24:41] and maybe they work at some corporate job
and they keep rising in the ranks
[24:45] and ultimately get more and more power,
but they've been meditating
[24:48] throughout this whole time,
maybe they wield that power
[24:51] with a credible sense of responsibility
and a sense of connection
[24:56] to the principles discussed in this book,
that would be huge.
[24:59] And then that could have a really big
impact, even if it's just one person.
[25:02] So I had that thought.
[25:03] And then when more than one person
started meditating
[25:06] because of it, I was like,
that's just gravy on top.
[25:08] And we don't have to jump
into the new book just yet,
[25:11] but the new book,
You Are Good, You Are Enough,
[25:13] I sort of came back to home base.
[25:14] It's like, okay, eight books in,
what does quote-unquote success look like?
[25:18] And it immediately rose in me again.
[25:20] It's just that one person
who just reads the book,
[25:23] connects to that feeling like
actually inherently I'm not a mess.
[25:27] Inherently I'm basically good
and whole and complete.
[25:29] And that goes through life with that lens.
That could be really impactful
[25:33] not just for them personally
but for society.
[25:35] So I feel like my sense
of success in this is very small,
[25:40] but actually it continues to surprise
and delight me.
[25:43] And then anything where I get a free
drink out of it, it's just crazy.
[25:50] I so resonate with what you're saying
[25:53] about just making a connection
with even one person.
[25:55] I wrote a children's book
where I basically knew
[26:00] that it was going to be a tiny audience,
but I loved the illustrator
[26:04] for it and it felt like
a worthwhile venture.
[26:06] And I've heard maybe five stories
about parents who've read that book
[26:11] to their kid
and that they've wanted as a kid
[26:14] to meditate or to know what mommy
and daddy are doing.
[26:18] And it allows them to be in that space.
[26:21] And just that, I knew that book
was going to lose money when we made it.
[26:26] And I was totally, totally fine with it.
[26:28] You knew it would also have an impact.
Yeah, I get that a lot.
[26:31] Yeah, and that's why I did that.
[26:33] And that's made it totally worthwhile
for me,
[26:36] even as a business person
who needs to support a staff.
[26:40] Every once in a while, we do those things.
[26:42] And sometimes they have a wider impact.
[26:45] Sometimes they could surprise.
Totally, yeah.
[26:48] But there's no expectation of that.
[26:51] And that's kind of the beauty of it.
[26:52] And it's like bringing that meditation
mind of like no expectations,
[26:56] no hope or no fear, just being with
what is and trying to do benefit.
[27:01] Yeah, it's awesome.
[27:02] And I love
that because it is one of those things
[27:04] where it's increasing rarity,
[27:06] let's say, in the publishing industry,
where it used to be people would just say,
[27:12] OK, we don't know what's going to happen
with this book.
[27:15] We believe in this book. Hopefully,
it's going to reach the right people.
[27:18] And we'll do our best to usher it out
the door and get people's eyes on it.
[27:23] And now it feels like
[27:24] there's just more data that people
can have in the front end.
[27:27] Again, it's like
how big is your newsletter list?
[27:29] How many people are following
you on social media? All of that.
[27:31] And it's like, okay, so that's probably
a quote unquote safer bet
[27:34] than the relative unknown person who
might even have a slightly better idea.
[27:38] So it's just great that you're...
[27:41] Not to just shove lots and lots of praise
on you all, but it's great that you...
[27:46] I love everything
that you all do and every time I see
[27:49] the new titles come out,
I'm like, this is a cool new idea.
[27:52] And I imagine some do really well
and some fall a little bit short
[27:56] of expectations,
but it's still incredible that they're out
[27:59] there and you're like, well, we're doing
this based on the merit of the work,
[28:02] as opposed to just,
this person has 100,000 followers.
[28:05] Yeah. Right.
And for us, as we're a business,
[28:08] we have to have the balance
of those two things,
[28:10] but we always are trying to balance
those two things of things
[28:14] that we're passionate about and we feel
like have benefit in the world.
[28:18] And those things also need to support,
[28:23] pay for themselves to some extent
because we're not a nonprofit.
[28:26] So it's always a dance.
[28:29] But yeah, it's also a bit of a bummer.
[28:32] As any field gets flooded with stuff,
it's harder and harder to stand out.
[28:38] And like you were saying, there was a time
in publishing where it was a smaller set
[28:45] of things, just like with television
and then video content.
[28:48] It was like, you know,
these things could gain traction
[28:52] because there was only so much stuff.
[28:55] And when you were looking for certain
[28:57] information, there
were only so many voices.
[28:59] And now it's just like,
just with the proliferation
[29:01] of information, it's harder
and harder to have a beautiful idea
[29:06] or a beautiful project gain
that momentum without all of the metrics
[29:12] that we kind of hate
but have to work with.
[29:15] At this stage,
it took me too many books to realize,
[29:18] don't go read the Amazon reviews.
[29:20] But I remember when Sit Like a Buddha
came out, which was this tiny little
[29:23] guide that we did together,
like how to meditate.
[29:26] I want to say 2014
or something like that it came out.
[29:29] And I remember going online
and someone wrote a three-star review.
[29:36] And three stars is actually quite generous
for this.
[29:38] I think they said something like, nothing
you couldn't find quicker on Google.
[29:43] And I was like, if you want quick
on how to meditate, you're right.
[29:46] In today's world,
you could just go on Google
[29:48] how to meditate
and find a 10 minute video.
[29:51] Yes. Totally fine.
[29:53] If you want like a short little book
[29:54] from a particular perspective,
different, right?
[29:57] But like, I love that because it is,
that's the world we live in now.
[30:00] Yeah. Yeah.
[30:02] So since the time of those original books
[30:05] that we did with you and your life
at that time, things have changed a lot.
[30:10] You're married
with an adorable little girl
[30:12] and you used to live in the cities
and you live out in the country now.
[30:17] Tell me a little bit about your life and,
you know, temporally, spiritually,
[30:21] what's happening with you these days?
Yeah.
[30:24] So you're right.
[30:26] The Buddha Walks into a Bar came out 2012.
And I remember,
[30:29] I think it was the Boston Phoenix,
which I don't even know
[30:31] if it still exists,
but it was a newspaper at the time.
[30:33] And they're like,
this is the cool kids Buddhist.
[30:36] And at some point
in recent years my wife was like, I think
[30:38] you have to take that off your website
because you're not a kid anymore.
[30:43] You know, like,
that's not the brand, so to speak—
[30:45] another word
that we didn't really use back then.
[30:48] Uh, yeah.
[30:49] So I, as I mentioned, you know, we've done
a book every two years or so since then,
[30:55] and over that time, like, I—
my life has just changed dramatically.
[31:00] You know,
it went from someone in their 20s figuring
[31:02] themselves out into even their 30s
and meeting my now wife, and, um,
[31:08] you know, navigating all the things
of moving upstate,
[31:12] getting married,
having a now three-year-old child.
[31:15] And it's sort of like, man, I am,
uh, very squarely in— in middle age.
[31:21] We were talking about before
we got it going.
[31:23] I was like, yeah,
so I started building these garden beds,
[31:25] which— and— honestly, I don't think
there's anything more middle-aged.
[31:29] Actually, this is a cool one.
[31:31] I swear this isn't a crisis,
but we are friends with this guy,
[31:38] and he paints houses, and he was painting
Marina Abramović's house.
[31:43] And she lives about 15 minutes from here.
[31:46] And he was like, hey,
do you want to buy her very old car?
[31:49] She's just trying to get
it out of her garage.
[31:52] So we are in the process
[31:54] of purchasing Marina Abramović's
1965 Chrysler New Yorker.
[31:59] And we just got to get it running again.
[32:01] And then it's like
that's about as middle-aged
[32:04] as it can get here by a classic car.
[32:07] But, you know, it's like, yeah,
it's like such a scene up here that people
[32:11] will like on Sundays drive around
and get ice cream in their classic cars.
[32:16] It's also
because she wants it out of her garage.
[32:18] We're going to get it for a steal.
And she's being very nice about it.
[32:21] So anyway, long story short,
very middle-aged at this point.
[32:24] And it's been really interesting
because I think the primary identity
[32:27] And it's been really interesting
because I think the primary identity
[32:30] marker is no longer cool kid Buddhist.
[32:32] It's like Ruby's dad.
And I'm totally fine with that.
[32:36] I am totally not interested
in being known as the Buddhist author
[32:41] or the guy that started
the meditation companies or whatever.
[32:44] It's just I'm so happy
to just be Ruby's dad
[32:47] and to be a good neighbor
and to teach locally and to teach online
[32:53] and to just whoever wants
to work with me can work with me.
[32:56] It feels very organic and very not...
[32:59] Like if there was ever any moment
of status or fame or...
[33:02] It's just not...
[33:03] It's all so ephemeral anyway.
[33:07] And it's just about doing the work
wherever the work might be.
[33:10] And sometimes that means giving a talk
to a couple hundred people
[33:12] and sometimes that means taking my kid
to the playground.
[33:15] And that's still... It doesn't
feel like there's a big separation
[33:18] in my mind in the way
that they might have been before.
[33:20] Yeah. Beautiful.
[33:24] So taking that as the reference
[33:26] for where you are in your life,
the new book,
[33:29] You Are Good, You Are Enough,
what's it about?
[33:32] Like, what's the perspective?
[33:34] What are you conveying
in that that's really,
[33:37] you know, obviously this is your offering
to the world from where you are now.
[33:44] So what is that?
[33:47] Yeah, so You Are Good, You're Enough.
[33:50] As I said before,
every time I write a book,
[33:52] I'm like, what's the conversation
that I'm trying to have here?
[33:56] And I do feel,
so let's just zoom out a little bit.
[34:01] 2019, I started teaching more online,
and that sprouted into a community
[34:06] of students that wanted
to work with me online.
[34:08] So we sort of established regular sits
as a community
[34:12] and talks that come out every Thursday
and all sorts of things like that.
[34:15] And that's still going,
however many years later.
[34:17] And so the common thread seemed to be
that we kept talking about and, you know,
[34:25] really trying to practice through the lens
of: what if we viewed ourselves
[34:29] not as basically a mess
or in need of fixing,
[34:32] but that meditation was actually the tool
to help us rediscover
[34:36] that we have been whole,
complete, and good all along?
[34:39] I.e., the core teachings
[34:41] of what is sometimes referred
to as basic goodness.
[34:43] Obviously, that's a term
[34:45] that Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche came up
with in the late '60s, early '70s,
[34:50] just for stringing together
two random Tibetan words like
[34:55] Döné Sangwa
[34:56] And it's great, but it's not something
you'll find in traditional Buddhist texts.
[35:02] It's his understanding
of how he could translate the fundamental
[35:06] principles of our own wakefulness
into Western parlance
[35:09] that we could just say, hey, your basic,
in this case, if you hate that word,
[35:15] fundamental, primordial, innate,
inherent, you are, that is, it's basically
[35:20] who you are is good, not good versus bad,
like that there's someone out there
[35:25] who's bad or evil, but that you're whole,
that you're complete, that you're wakeful.
[35:31] That's actually your birthright.
[35:33] And I think that, you know,
this is something that I was raised with.
[35:36] Sometimes, I don't know
if you've had this experience
[35:38] people were like,
what was it like being raised meditating?
[35:41] It's like, I don't know. Cause
I don't really have like another version.
[35:45] That's what we know. Right.
[35:46] Like I don't have another,
my brother didn't, he he's older than me.
[35:49] He wasn't raised meditating.
He's very anxious.
[35:52] I don't know.
Maybe that's the closest thing I have.
[35:54] And, but like the real thing
was I was raised in a culture
[35:56] And, but like the real thing
was I was raised in a culture
[35:58] of basic goodness, meaning that as a kid,
if something went wrong
[36:02] or a mistake happened,
it wasn't that I was a bad
[36:05] kid is I'm basically good.
And I made a mistake.
[36:07] I think that is the view
that really helped me as,
[36:13] you know, I entered teenagers
and 20s and 30s and so on.
[36:16] And I think it's also
just a really powerful view
[36:19] for us right now,
for us individuals, uh, that like
[36:22] when we come up with our own sense
of doubting ourselves or self-aggression,
[36:26] that we would realize
that we're fundamentally okay.
[36:29] And yes, mistakes happen.
[36:31] Yes, you said the wrong
thing at the dinner party.
[36:33] That doesn't mean you're a bad person.
And then also about each other,
[36:37] that from a societal point of view,
I think we're really getting
[36:40] into these silos of like,
just me and people like me,
[36:43] and anyone who isn't thinking like me,
politically like me,
[36:46] or whatever it might be,
they're wrong, and they're bad.
[36:49] And that's actually going to be,
we're already seeing it sort of tear
[36:53] the United States apart,
and I think other places as well.
[36:56] And I do think that if we can shift
our view slightly,
[36:59] there is a lot of societal
healing that can happen of,
[37:01] well, they believe what I believe
or they made a mistake
[37:04] or whatever it is doesn't
mean they're bad.
[37:07] They're good and they may not understand
things the way that I understand things
[37:11] or I may not understand things
the way they understand things.
[37:13] It's a very different perspective.
[37:15] So the book overall is just opening up
conversations in these three fronts.
[37:19] One is can we start to recognize
that we ourselves are basically good?
[37:23] And obviously meditation
[37:24] is a huge practice that helps us come
into the lived experience of that.
[37:29] This is not a philosophy book.
[37:31] This is not dogmatic.
[37:33] It is really like
when we are alone with ourselves,
[37:36] can we let go of the stories
long enough just to acknowledge,
[37:40] oh, there's something whole
and solid there underneath.
[37:43] And then can we start to connect
to other people in our life around that,
[37:47] the people that we like, your family,
have chapters there about your spouse,
[37:52] your kid, your coworker,
all of these different people
[37:55] in your life that you might say,
oh, I like this person.
[37:58] And then it gets into the people
we don't know, the strangers in our life?
[38:02] And, you know, could we start
[38:04] to acknowledge their humanity,
the people around us?
[38:07] And then it gets even
into the people we don't like.
[38:10] Because basically, those are the three
groups that we set up for everyone.
[38:13] We see someone, we say, oh, that person
reminds me of my childhood bully.
[38:17] I don't like them.
That person is attractive.
[38:19] I do like them.
We're actively ignoring everyone else.
[38:21] We're passing on the street, right?
We're doing that all the time.
[38:24] So the idea of could we even begin
to acknowledge the basic goodness
[38:30] of those people
that we have a hard time with,
[38:32] that we might villainize,
etc., is in there.
[38:35] And then we look at this from a societal
perspective saying, hey,
[38:38] what is society if not you,
me, plus the people we like,
[38:43] the people we don't like, and this massive
group called everyone else?
[38:46] So could we posit the idea at least
that society is basically good,
[38:51] even though it feels
basically messed up right now?
[38:53] But if it's made up of people
who possess basic goodness,
[38:56] it has the potential to wake up
in a really big way.
[38:59] I mean, I feel like so much of the culture
right now is exactly what you said.
[39:06] It's like there's a sense of openness,
but there's really people
[39:11] don't want to have to deal
with those who they deem as bad.
[39:18] Or like this person did this bad thing
and therefore I want them extricated.
[39:23] But like, what do we do with,
you know, ourselves
[39:26] when we feel like we've been, you know,
when we haven't been our best selves
[39:30] and others, when we don't agree with them,
we have to work with that.
[39:34] It's like, you know,
so I was talking with somebody recently,
[39:36] I don't remember who it was,
but we were talking about how when you get
[39:39] married, that's not the end of the movie.
It's the beginning of the movie.
[39:43] It's what happens after that,
which is really what's important.
[39:47] And it's the same thing,
you know, like we're in this mess
[39:51] of samsara together and, you know,
we're either going to be in it together
[39:54] or we're going to be against each other.
[39:56] And so, like,
how do we work with ourselves
[40:00] when we when we don't love ourselves
and others when we don't love them?
[40:03] And that's such a beautiful thing
to be contemplating and working with.
[40:07] And I love the language
that you're using around it.
[40:11] Yeah, thank you.
I sort of summarize it all as like
[40:14] a three-step plan,
which is like very modern age.
[40:17] But step one in this is like
we discover our own basic goodness,
[40:21] that we are inherently whole,
complete okay-nesses.
[40:24] And again, that can just be
you're meditating, you've got 10 minutes,
[40:27] and for a moment you're like,
oh, in this moment I'm okay.
[40:31] Like I'm not stressed and anxious.
[40:33] Like, oh, is that it?
[40:35] And then we start to, step two,
develop a relationship to that.
[40:38] We start to trust
in our own experience of those moments.
[40:41] We start to string them together
when we're getting in the shower
[40:43] and the hot water is hitting our back
and we're just able to be there for it.
[40:47] And there's some sense of,
oh, this feels good.
[40:49] Like I'm good.
[40:50] Not like delightful,
but just literally whole here embodied.
[40:55] Oh, there's that moment.
[40:57] When my child hugs me
goodnight every night.
[41:00] You know, that she just sort of throws
her whole body at me.
[41:02] And then I'm obviously 100% present
with her as I'm holding her.
[41:06] There's basic goodness there.
[41:07] So to start to string these moments
and recognize them
[41:10] in all these interactions,
and then the third step is we start
[41:14] to live our life through the lens
of basic goodness,
[41:16] that we start to, you know,
the one Tibetan word that I love is gyu,
[41:22] G-Y-U, which means continuity,
like this continuity of wakefulness,
[41:26] that we start
to just piece these moments together here
[41:28] and there, so we live a life that feels
like it's in touch with that sense
[41:32] of basic goodness as opposed to stress
and anxiety. Awesome.
[41:37] To go further on this,
[41:37] To go further on this,
[41:38] what did your Spotify Wrapped
look like last year?
[41:42] What are some of the songs?
[41:45] I actually thought,
with all of my time with my child
[41:49] and all this, I was like, oh,
I should do a playlist alongside
[41:53] You Are Good, You Are Enough,
which still might come out.
[41:55] Maybe I'll do it this summer.
[41:56] I'm working on it very, very, very slow.
[42:00] But my actual Spotify Wrapped was like,
guess what?
[42:04] You listened
to Barbara Ann by the Beach Boys
[42:07] more time than the Beach Boys listened
to it or played it.
[42:13] Like I got a personalized call
from Spotify saying,
[42:15] is everything okay over there?
[42:18] Who is Barbara Ann?
[42:19] How did they hurt you?
[42:21] Because my kid just wanted that on repeat
[42:23] and like still does sometimes,
but like really.
[42:26] And then this year
it's going to be even worse
[42:27] because you and I are recording in June.
[42:30] We are still listening daily
to Frosty the Snowman.
[42:33] Oh my goodness.
[42:35] It's really— I mean,
there's something like, at some point
[42:40] I'm sure we'll do a book around
like parenting and things like that.
[42:43] Not that I know a lot about parenting,
but I—
[42:47] I understand how like I'm—
I'm viewing it through this lens of like,
[42:50] wow, this is— this is, you know,
the paramita of patience.
[42:53] Like, there's no getting
out of Frosty the Snowman.
[42:56] What am I going to do?
[42:57] Am I going to grin
and bear it and like hate myself?
[42:59] Like, no. I'm just going to be like,
let's just see what this like to listen
[43:03] to this on repeat for months on end.
[43:06] Like, what is that like?
[43:07] Can I get on board with that, you know?
[43:09] It's insane and I'm gonna be here for it.
[43:11] So like, if I could fight it or not,
like, can I just be open to it?
[43:14] Can be open to the experience? Anyway,
I'm learning a lot through this parenting
[43:16] thing, but my Spotify Wrapped
is looking horrible as a result.
[43:21] What was the top song that did not relate
to your daughter whatsoever?
[43:25] Do you remember?
[43:26] Oh gosh, I don't even know
if that's in there, that if that exists.
[43:29] It's like so buried.
[43:30] It's so far down.
[43:31] Yeah, it's so far down.
[43:34] You know, I—
I would have to look it up, but okay.
[43:36] And that's okay.
[43:38] You know, I, again, like,
I don't mean to just be like, oh,
[43:41] I'm like, you know, I'm a girl dad.
That's who I am.
[43:43] Like, it's— it's an egoic identity
like anything else, right?
[43:46] Like, Spotify Wrapped is us being like,
look at my egoic identity.
[43:50] Look at this.
[43:51] I'm in the top zero one percent fan
of this particular obscure artist.
[43:55] That's how indie I am.
[43:56] Or like, look, I'm, you know,
[43:58] I listened to this really amazing artist
that no one's heard of.
[44:01] Like, it's just— that's fine and good.
[44:03] I— I'm fine with it being like,
your Ruby's dad.
[44:06] And I don't want to hold these identities
[44:09] too tightly because like, yeah,
that is what's happening right now.
[44:12] And yeah, uh, you know,
maybe at some point
[44:14] I'll get my Spotify Wrapped back,
but I don't—
[44:16] I think it's gonna be
another couple years. Okay.
[44:19] I— I found like
[44:20] quite the opposite of what you're saying
when I looked at my Spotify Wrapped.
[44:23] I was surprised how basic I am in—
in reality,
[44:28] no matter how I think about myself.
[44:31] Yeah, I really do love that.
[44:33] It was not at all how I think of myself.
[44:37] It's not reflected
in what I listen to the most,
[44:41] which I just found interesting.
[44:43] I'm looking at it right now.
[44:45] I pulled it up while—
while we are on the line. Yeah.
[44:48] It goes down to like Louis Armstrong,
[44:52] What A Wonderful World,
again, because of Ruby.
[44:55] And then the really embarrassing one,
this is a song that my father used
[44:59] to play for me,
which I thought was so funny as a kid.
[45:03] And then my daughter did too.
[45:04] And it's a horrible song.
[45:05] It's called Fish Heads
by Barnes and Barnes.
[45:08] And it literally goes,
fish heads, fish heads,
[45:11] roly poly fish heads, fish heads,
fish heads, eat them up, yum.
[45:15] And she was so tickled by it.
[45:19] And then my wife had to start pretending
like she couldn't play it on her phone.
[45:22] It could only be played on dad's phone.
Which is such a good parenting move.
[45:28] That's such a great move.
[45:30] But I love that it's not just Baby Shark
and Frozen.
[45:32] Like you've opened her world.
[45:35] Yeah, Louis Armstrong is great.
[45:37] Come on. That's great. Yeah.
[45:39] At least it's like
palette things that you,
[45:41] even if the repetition kills you,
it's still somewhat palatable.
[45:46] Exactly right. Yeah.
[45:50] So outside of your family
and your professional work,
[45:55] like what's giving you juice these days?
[45:57] Like what are you finding interesting
in the world outside
[46:01] of Lodro the meditation teacher
and Lodro the dad?
[46:04] Like what's giving you a little bit
of joy? Yeah.
[46:09] I mean, it is really interesting
because we live in a very small town.
[46:13] And, you know,
[46:15] it's just one of those situations
where I think we're still developing
[46:20] community six years in to living
where we live.
[46:23] And it's been a really beautiful time
for me
[46:27] and my wife, Adriana,
to sort of like just discover
[46:31] what it's like for us
to have like small town hobbies.
[46:34] Like, what do we do with ourselves?
[46:36] And we were talking before we got going,
and I mentioned here as well,
[46:39] you know, like,
let's build a garden together.
[46:42] What is that like?
It feels like I'm just learning
[46:45] at this point to take care
of a very old house.
[46:49] We have a house from the 1700s.
[46:51] And fix things.
[46:53] I was not raised in a household
that did any of these things.
[46:56] To work with your hands.
To work with the earth.
[46:58] So it feels like
I'm coming into a more embodied
[47:01] state of being at this point.
[47:02] And then on the flip side of all of this,
I have always been a comics books fan.
[47:09] And I started doing a very silly
podcast called X-Men Horoscopes,
[47:15] which is basically just me having
comic creators and things like that on.
[47:20] And we review their birth month
and year and say, okay,
[47:24] so that maps to this X-Men issue
that came out in whatever year that is.
[47:28] And what does that story
mean about your future?
[47:32] So it's a blending of the spiritual
and the very geeky.
[47:37] But it's like a really fun way
[47:38] that I've also built community
just around this other thing that I love.
[47:41] You know, my wife always jokes
I only know Buddhism and X-Men.
[47:44] So I sort of had that been dormant
for a thousand years.
[47:47] I actually remember sitting across
from your sister
[47:50] while I was writing
The Buddha Walks into the Office.
[47:54] And just turning to her and said,
from a professional perspective,
[47:57] how many superhero references
is too many in a Buddhist book?
[48:01] And she said,
how many do you currently have?
[48:04] I said, three. And she goes, stop there.
[48:07] Which is very wise advice.
[48:09] You need the book where you fully
let that— that freak flag fly.
[48:14] Yeah, more coming on that in the distant
future, I imagine.
[48:17] Okay. Okay, great.
[48:19] Um, I'd like to wrap these up
with a short practice or a contemplation
[48:26] that's been really powerful
for you recently.
[48:28] I find that within my own practice,
there are things,
[48:32] sometimes cyclically,
that mean more to me,
[48:35] and sometimes things that I'm exposed
to that I didn't know before,
[48:40] that are particularly
powerful at different times.
[48:44] What have you found, either for yourself
or that which you're sharing
[48:48] with students, that's been particularly
potent at this time?
[48:53] Yeah, it's an interesting one.
[48:58] I going to do two angles on this.
[49:00] The first
is that sort of a parenting angle.
[49:04] And then I want to do a more general,
like what's
[49:05] been coming up for me lately, because
when I was about to have this child,
[49:11] I turned
to my meditation teacher, Kilung Rinpoche.
[49:14] And I said, listen, I'm worried
that I'm not gonna be able to do like
[49:16] these long retreats with you anymore.
And he has kids.
[49:19] And he sort of looked at me like
I was crazy, like, of course not.
[49:22] You know? And I said, well,
what advice do you have for me?
[49:28] He said, he got this look in his eyes.
[49:34] He asked like,
what can I do for you, baby?
[49:36] He said, be attentive to baby.
[49:38] Just ask, what can I do for you, baby?
[49:40] I am here for you. You're suffering.
[49:42] I will do what I can to help.
[49:43] So just be attentive to baby
was sort of the code
[49:46] that there's this moment
of just like, whatever.
[49:50] And, you know, for people
who have or have had young children,
[49:54] you know that they're just relentless
in demanding your attention.
[49:58] And you can't like space out,
look at your phone.
[50:00] You're like,
they're just like right there.
[50:02] Uh, even driving my kid to school today,
[50:04] I was thinking about like
what I had to do today
[50:06] and how we would sit down
and things like that.
[50:08] And she was like,
stop thinking about that.
[50:10] Like, which— you didn't know what I think.
[50:13] She's just like, stop, just stop.
[50:14] Like, okay,
what do you want to talk about?
[50:16] Like, it was just like, okay,
you know, like no— no space.
[50:19] So like, be attentive to baby.
[50:21] And I just started thinking about that,
[50:22] not just from the perspective
like this early practice
[50:25] when I didn't have a lot of time
to sit down and formally meditate.
[50:28] Like, well,
I'm just gonna be present with this child.
[50:30] I'm gonna be meditate
while this child's sleeping on me.
[50:32] You know, that was another practice.
[50:34] But it was like this sense of,
what if I then applied that attitude
[50:38] to everyone?
[50:39] Like, you know,
Ivan's baby in this case, right?
[50:42] Like, be attentive to I, right?
[50:43] Don't think about like
what's coming up next
[50:45] and where you got to be
and what time you go.
[50:47] Like, just be there with Ivan.
[50:48] When I'm actually able to have a dinner
with my wife uninterrupted,
[50:52] just be attentive to my wife.
[50:54] Just to bring ourself
100% into relationship
[50:58] with the people around us.
[51:00] But it started
with that transformative experience.
[51:02] This is the only practice
I can muster right now.
[51:04] It's just showing up 100% for this
being who demands that I be present.
[51:08] Because I think a lot of us
don't demand that.
[51:10] It's like, oh yeah, you're getting a text,
answer your text, right?
[51:12] And then you come back to lunch with me.
It's just different.
[51:15] But to actually come
into these interactions, like,
[51:17] actually, I'm 100% here with you.
[51:20] And then more recently, you know,
I've just started doing this practice.
[51:28] Well, I guess, let me think about it.
[51:29] It's been five years or so
that I've been doing
[51:31] both just a very short, like,
guru yoga practice right when I wake up,
[51:35] just to, like, start my day that way.
[51:37] And then I immediately go
into a gratitude practice,
[51:39] which is just so simple.
It's really just what am I grateful for.
[51:42] And it's often very same,
like it's a similar list, you know,
[51:46] each day is, you know, this, you know,
kind, lovely person sleeping beside me.
[51:51] My child is happy and healthy.
[51:53] We have like this comfortable, safe home.
[51:55] We have these two really lovely,
adorable dogs.
[51:59] We had two wonderful cats
that are now deceased.
[52:02] We, my mother, you know,
[52:04] late in life is able to have the support
that she needs.
[52:07] It's very basic stuff.
[52:08] And as you noted, even within that,
some of it's tinged with sorrow.
[52:12] Our cats are gone. It's very sad still,
a year later since they passed.
[52:16] And I still think of them every morning.
But it's still gratitude.
[52:20] The gratitude's still there.
And then I actually roll out of bed
[52:24] and make the coffee
or go to the kid or whatever it is.
[52:28] And it takes me 30 to 60 seconds.
It's not long.
[52:32] But it means that every day I start
with this perspective of contentment,
[52:37] like connection to the things
that are actually going well,
[52:39] even if the child's already calling
for me, right?
[52:42] Like, it's not, oh my God, what do I need?
[52:43] Is okay, yeah, there's some—
I've already thought and reflected
[52:48] and like felt in my heart, like,
how great is that this gets healthy?
[52:50] And now I will go deal with that.
[52:52] You know, it's just a different
perspective to enter the day.
[52:55] And that's— that's been very powerful
for me, at least. Yeah.
[52:58] I mean,
it makes such a difference starting
[53:00] with dread or starting with worry versus—
[53:05] I think it's totally underestimated
how important it is we start our days.
[53:12] Like, even if it's just a small bit,
I feel it so much when I go
[53:17] immediately into busyness
or immediately into distraction versus
[53:21] one to five minutes of presence,
of devotion, of gratitude, and—
[53:28] and I find it just shocking how the ripple
effects of that into the day
[53:34] and into our interactions with others.
Yeah.
[53:38] And, you know, obviously we should say
since we ping pong from go on month long
[53:42] retreats to do 30 seconds in the morning,
like anything within that is good.
[53:46] And the more that I do is great.
[53:48] But I do find for just my own perspective,
[53:53] to be able to start the day
with that is an incredibly powerful boost
[53:56] to then start the momentum
for further practice and study.
[53:59] Yeah. I mean,
my Buddhist teacher didn't...
[54:04] I would say the thing
that he was the most specific
[54:08] with his students was that they started
their day with practice,
[54:12] that we didn't immediately
go into something,
[54:15] and just how important it was.
[54:17] And like, I didn't get grilled
on that much, but I got grilled on that.
[54:21] It was like,
did you practice this morning?
[54:23] Did you start your day that way?
Because it matters.
[54:27] And we can all show up
for that in different ways.
[54:29] Like for him,
it was three to four hours of stuff.
[54:33] for a new parent, it can be 30 seconds,
[54:36] but just starting with that little bit
of intentionality goes so far.
[54:41] Yeah, I'm with you.
Thank you for sharing that.
[54:45] My pleasure, really. Yeah, yeah.
[54:48] Um, this is fun.
[54:52] It is, yeah.
[54:54] Thanks for having me on.
I really appreciate it.
[54:56] I know, um,
that there's a lot going on over there,
[54:58] so it's so nice to— to be able to spend
this type of time with you too.
[55:01] Yeah, totally. And I'm learning things
about you each time I've done this.
[55:04] Like, I've become friends
with Devendra Banhart,
[55:07] and— and you,
and I've interviewed a bunch of people
[55:09] who I've known for a long time
and people I consider friends.
[55:12] But I always learn things
[55:14] about those people that I care
about in these interviews.
[55:17] And it's— it's pleasant for me
and hopefully for the people listening
[55:21] as well to learn about the different
facets of your life.