Master Your Cortisol Rhythm: TheNeuroscience of Energy and Focus

Transcript

[0:00] Lots of people deal with brain fog and

[0:02] low energy throughout the day. What's

[0:05] your advice for combating that?

[0:07] >> I mean, it's funny. I I'll probably end

[0:08] up saying this 20 times in today's

[0:10] conversation, but if I were to really if

[0:14] I had two minutes with somebody and they

[0:16] said, "What's the thing I can do for my

[0:17] health?" I'd say, "Make the first hour

[0:18] of your day high cortisol and the last

[0:20] hour hour of your day low cortisol."

[0:22] High cortisol in the morning sets you up

[0:25] for elevated mood, focus, and alertness

[0:27] all day long. Allows you to buffer

[0:29] stress better. And it makes sure that

[0:31] your nighttime cortisol is going to be

[0:33] low. If [clears throat] you don't,

[0:34] >> you know, spike that morning cortisol

[0:36] enough in the first one to three hours

[0:38] of your day, you're going to have a high

[0:40] flat cortisol curve. Not good.

[0:43] >> Makes you less resilient to stress,

[0:46] brain fog, less amendable to learning

[0:48] and on and on. So then you just say,

[0:49] well, what can you do? And we can make

[0:51] this very simple. uh bright light

[0:52] especially from sunlight or 10,000 lux

[0:54] artificial light in especially in the

[0:56] first 30 minutes after waking hydration

[0:58] caffeine if you like caffeine exercise

[1:01] in the first three hours of your day if

[1:03] you can right some people can't and then

[1:06] roll into your day at night in that

[1:08] final hour you do everything you can to

[1:10] reverse that you dim the lights

[1:13] especially overhead lights dim your

[1:15] screen you could do the red light thing

[1:17] or the candle light thing you know limit

[1:20] caffeine obviously exercise in the final

[1:22] hour before sleep only if that's the

[1:24] only time you can do it.

[1:25] >> Mh.

[1:25] >> Some people that's the only time. Um,

[1:28] and actually eating in the first three

[1:30] hours of your day, even though I'm a fan

[1:32] of I personally fast in the first three

[1:34] hours of the day, but that actually can

[1:36] also spike cortisol. People say, "Why

[1:38] would eating spike cortisol?" Well, I

[1:40] mean, basically anything that you do

[1:42] that's sort of proarousal, that's about

[1:44] activity is going to spike cortisol. So

[1:47] bookending your day

[1:49] >> with things that spike your cortisol at

[1:52] the beginning and lower your cortisol at

[1:54] the end is really it it really is the if

[1:57] there is a cheat code to life. Now why

[1:59] do I say to life? I mean is it going to

[2:00] make you completely stress resilient?

[2:02] No. Is it going to make you a um able to

[2:05] learn anything you want with ease? No.

[2:07] But what it does is it sets you up for

[2:10] the best possible sleep which makes you

[2:12] more alert the next day of course. It

[2:14] also it anchors this process that I

[2:18] haven't talked about before on any

[2:19] podcast um and frankly that I didn't

[2:22] touch on directly in the book um which

[2:24] is so much of life is about balancing

[2:27] what we call bottom up and top down

[2:28] influences. Bottomup influences would be

[2:32] you know um you want the cookie, you're

[2:36] going to just eat the cookie. You um you

[2:38] know you shouldn't be scrolling as much

[2:41] as you're scrolling, you just keep

[2:43] scrolling. That's those are bottom-up

[2:44] influences. These are um impulses that

[2:47] are driven by hypothalamic and other

[2:49] deep brain structures.

[2:51] >> Then we have thankfully we have top down

[2:54] influences. This is your prefrontal

[2:56] cortex suppressing impulses. Okay. This

[2:58] is the two marshmallow test in kids

[3:00] which by the way a lot of people say was

[3:02] debunked. The debunk was debunked by the

[3:04] way. Yeah. So um the ability to suppress

[3:08] action. It's what I taught my bulldog

[3:11] pit mix strummer. the day I brought him

[3:14] home and it's the basis of everything.

[3:16] You put a piece of food in front of him.

[3:17] He of course wants to take it, right?

[3:19] His prefrontal cortex isn't even online

[3:21] yet. And you take it away until he

[3:23] learns and he learns the first day and

[3:25] never forgets that he has to wait until

[3:28] I say, "Okay, what are you doing there?"

[3:31] It's actually not about making him wait

[3:32] for a treat. It's about making him

[3:34] suppress what feels like anxiety and

[3:36] impulse. And that that wicks out to

[3:38] every type of waiting. So you say,

[3:39] "Wait, or like see you later. I'm going

[3:41] to work." And then you come back and

[3:43] he's not freaking out. He can just now

[3:45] he doesn't have to actively suppress the

[3:46] whole time. But the ability to suppress

[3:48] impulse so much of life, the ability to

[3:50] learn and lean into just enough stress

[3:52] that you trigger learning. The ability

[3:54] to listen when you want to react. The

[3:56] ability to force yourself to get up and

[3:58] work on the book or the thing that you

[4:00] don't want to do.

[4:02] So much of that is top-down influences.

[4:06] And basically being an effective human

[4:08] is about building up those circuits of

[4:11] top down. Now do you have to do them in

[4:13] everything? This is a matter of debate.

[4:15] I think that

[4:16] >> people like Andy Stumpf who I have

[4:18] tremendous respect for.

[4:20] >> Um it's just awesome. I've learned so

[4:22] much from him. I actually made some late

[4:24] latest late stage additions to the book

[4:26] based on a conversation I had with him.

[4:27] So he actually made you know very late

[4:29] in the game. I was like I need to my

[4:31] editors were like you can't do this

[4:32] anymore. Like enough is enough. And I'm

[4:34] like, I want it back or else I'm not

[4:36] signing off on the final draft to put in

[4:38] this. You know, Andy has a number of

[4:41] tools that are that are really useful.

[4:42] But, you know, he has this philosophy

[4:43] that he shares which is

[4:46] >> throughout your day when given the

[4:49] option between the easier thing and the

[4:50] harder thing, do the harder thing. That

[4:53] there's tremendous value in that. It's

[4:55] the make your bed thing. It's the

[4:56] replace the toilet paper roll is the

[4:58] example he gives in his book Drown,

[5:00] which is an awesome book. I highly

[5:01] recommend it. He doesn't pay me to say

[5:03] this. It's just an awesome book. I

[5:04] recommend it to everybody. But these

[5:07] little things like there's that piece of

[5:09] trash on the floor that's this big. Do I

[5:11] pick it up? Why would you know does is

[5:13] it about the trash? Does it really make

[5:15] that much of a difference in your life?

[5:17] No. But the action of going against that

[5:20] bottomup influence of just ignoring the

[5:22] harder thing and going toward ease, more

[5:24] pleasure, less pain, even just avoiding

[5:26] subtle pain though there are two ways to

[5:29] build up these circuits. One is by

[5:31] forcing yourself to go like as we say

[5:33] with like writers always say like ass to

[5:35] chair like you know it's just you're

[5:36] just going to like sweat blood until you

[5:38] get those 800 words a day out. The there

[5:41] advantages to that or doing the hard

[5:43] workout that you do not want to do.

[5:45] There's also a building up of the same

[5:47] circuits those top down suppression of

[5:49] impulse through the little things all

[5:51] day long. You probably need to do both.

[5:53] But I think that many of us nowadays who

[5:56] are exercising and doing health

[5:57] protocols, we absorb a lot of energy in

[6:01] order to get ourselves to those. Some

[6:03] people more, some people less. And I've

[6:05] started doing these, you know, stump

[6:09] type uh smaller things throughout the

[6:12] day. He does the big things too

[6:13] obviously, but those little things, what

[6:16] you find, what I find is that they make

[6:18] it much easier to overcome the friction

[6:21] that comes from anything. And so there's

[6:23] a really just like getting the reps in

[6:24] like it doesn't what it proves is that

[6:26] it's the circuit. It's not what you're

[6:28] doing. You're getting the reps into the

[6:30] circuit.

[6:31] >> It's kind of like Pavlo Satsulin, the

[6:32] strength guy. It's like the grease the

[6:33] groove thing. Okay, you do two pull-ups

[6:35] every time you pass through through the

[6:36] door.

[6:37] >> And does that mean that you can do 200

[6:39] pull-ups in a single set? No. But it

[6:42] actually turns out to be more effective

[6:43] than doing like three sets of 10 twice a

[6:46] week.

[6:47] >> Okay. Then people say, "Well, that's not

[6:48] true. if you add weight perhaps not but

[6:50] it's maybe it's just two different roads

[6:52] to the same place but the top down

[6:56] bottom up tension this dynamic tension

[6:58] between those two is so much about what

[7:01] being non-reactive is about. It's about

[7:03] what not procrastinating is about. It's

[7:04] what morality is about. It's about being

[7:07] calm under pressure. It's about um being

[7:10] making appropriate decisions in the face

[7:12] of stress because it's not all about not

[7:14] feeling stress. It's about making

[7:15] adaptive decisions. Is there anything

[7:17] else that you would advise people to do

[7:19] for training willpower?

[7:21] >> I mean, I think what Andy talks about in

[7:23] his book, and obviously he's not the

[7:24] first person to talk about this, but you

[7:26] know that that philosophy like how you

[7:28] do one thing is how you do anything.

[7:29] That's a little bit vague for me. I like

[7:30] the way he describes it, which is these

[7:32] little micro sucks all day long. Like

[7:35] like it happened to me the other day.

[7:36] >> Trust Andy to call it micro sucks. He's

[7:39] a man with a helicopter that's jumped

[7:40] out of a plane like 50,000.

[7:42] >> He holds two world records at wing

[7:43] suiting.

[7:44] >> Yeah. I think he flew 36,000 feet or

[7:47] something like that. I mean,

[7:48] >> yeah. And I mean, there are a lot of

[7:50] badasses in the world and in the tier

[7:52] one operator sphere and I know a number

[7:53] of those guys that there are a lot of

[7:54] badasses. Obviously, what's impressive

[7:56] to me is somebody who has the

[7:59] intelligence and the communication

[8:00] skills to be able to share the things

[8:01] that are relevant to everybody in a way

[8:03] that's relevant to everybody. Um, he's

[8:05] also from Santa Cruz, which is a cool

[8:07] town. It's right over the hill from

[8:08] where I grew up. And like the fact that

[8:10] somebody like that came from Santa Cruz

[8:11] is kind of a hometown joke, which is a

[8:13] pretty There's only two reasons to go to

[8:15] Santa Cruz. If you're a guy in your

[8:17] teens or 20s or 30s, you go to the go to

[8:19] the boardwalk to meet girls or you go to

[8:22] fight. People in Santa Cruz, it was like

[8:24] they you'd always see fights and so I

[8:26] always thought of Santa Cruz as people

[8:27] think as this hippie town. I always

[8:28] thought of it as kind of a kind of a

[8:30] there's a rougher side of Santa Cruz.

[8:32] And then I hear about you know Andy's

[8:34] from Santa Cruz. I'm like that makes no

[8:36] sense whatsoever. But you know, he took

[8:37] all of that kind of local environment.

[8:40] Sounds like he had a good upbringing. He

[8:41] talks fondly about his parents which is

[8:43] cool and put it to some really

[8:46] impressive feats and can communicate

[8:48] what what the exports from that those

[8:50] experiences are. So you know I mean how

[8:53] many of us in our daily life need to

[8:55] like shoot move and communicate you know

[8:57] like the the macronutrients of you know

[8:59] operators. I mean some people yes but

[9:00] most of us no. So to me that's one way.

[9:04] The other way is obviously to do your

[9:07] workouts and you know I I'm a big

[9:09] believer in asking yourself what am I

[9:11] genuinely curious about learning and

[9:13] where's the fear point for me? What is

[9:14] kind of why am I shying away from

[9:16] learning about something because for

[9:18] fear of like poor performance and then

[9:19] that's the thing you should lean into.

[9:21] You have to be curious about something

[9:22] unless you're in school where you have

[9:23] to learn a subject. So that's another

[9:25] way like pushing yourself to learn

[9:26] cognitively. And then to me, I think

[9:29] that a a big other part of this top-

[9:32] down training is just the way that we

[9:36] approach life. Like, you know, I think

[9:37] there are two reasons to do hard things.

[9:40] Um, Rogan and I were talking about this

[9:42] yesterday. One reason is because it

[9:44] makes you better at doing hard things.

[9:47] The other reason is it allows you to

[9:48] access more awareness of the beautiful

[9:51] things in life. I mean, there's so much

[9:54] dog [ __ ] floating around on the internet

[9:57] and anger and we you and I talked about

[9:58] this. There's so many barbedwire drama

[10:01] things. I mean, if I went around, you

[10:04] know, posting every opinion that I

[10:06] reflexively have about some of the like

[10:08] nonsense antics that I see online or the

[10:11] crazy documentaries that are coming out

[10:12] and like when and you know, you get to a

[10:15] certain point in life and you tend to be

[10:16] one to six degrees of separation from

[10:18] pretty much anything you see online. As

[10:21] much as you would like to not think you

[10:22] go, "Oh, I know someone who knows

[10:23] someone who knows that person. I met

[10:24] that person once in a party. Got a eerie

[10:26] feeling. I won't say who that's about,

[10:28] but that was a real experience."

[10:30] >> You know, you can go down that rabbit

[10:31] hole. So much of being effective is

[10:33] going nonsense, nonsense, nonsense. And

[10:36] I always just take myself back to high

[10:38] school. There are only really three or

[10:39] four reasons to actually be in high

[10:42] school. There's like to learn, right,

[10:44] from teachers and from your peers and in

[10:46] class. That's a legitimate reason to go

[10:48] to school. you know, there were social

[10:50] reasons. Um, there were all sorts of

[10:54] observations that I had like one that

[10:56] was still salient for me. I'll share in

[10:58] a moment. You can learn a lot about

[11:00] people in life, human behavior.

[11:02] >> I have a I have a a friend who's a

[11:03] professor at Stanford who says he he

[11:05] unfortunately he calls me Andy. It's

[11:07] really annoying. And he's

[11:08] >> You don't like Andy?

[11:09] >> No, no, no, no, no.

[11:10] >> I think this guy's just persistent.

[11:12] >> Yeah. I Well, so what happened was what

[11:14] happened. I lost a coin flip to another

[11:16] Andrew like in the third grade. He gets

[11:19] to be Andrew.

[11:20] >> He got to be Andrew. It still pisses me

[11:21] off, you know. So, um, anyway, I

[11:24] eventually took back Andrew. Um, and you

[11:27] know, and this the other reason is a lot

[11:29] there's certain observations that I had

[11:31] in high school that taught me a lot

[11:32] about human nature that are still true

[11:35] across men, women of all ages, all

[11:37] demographics is really, really helpful.

[11:40] Actually, I'll just share it right now.

[11:41] So, as some people may know, in round

[11:44] 14, I got really into the skateboarding

[11:46] thing. Prior to that, it was like

[11:47] school, swimming, soccer. Every kid in

[11:49] my town did those. Got really excited

[11:51] about skateboarding. Skateboarding was

[11:52] small then. Um, it wasn't this big

[11:54] thing. No X games, nothing. I wasn't

[11:56] very good skateboarder. I was decent

[11:57] enough to get picked up probably just

[11:59] out of sheer sympathy by one sponsor.

[12:02] Um, and people want to check me on this

[12:04] cuz people always trying to His name my

[12:05] team manager was Steve Rugie. I rode for

[12:07] Spitfire. It was out of sympathy. Steve,

[12:09] I love you. Thank you for putting me on.

[12:10] I appreciate you also telling me I'd

[12:12] never be one of the big guys. Boom.

[12:13] Done. Um, but I remember there was this

[12:16] phase of skateboarding in the early 90s

[12:18] and it wasn't a good phase, but where

[12:21] like the clothes got baggy, the shorts

[12:22] got baggy, there was some sag

[12:24] >> and at that time no one did that. No

[12:27] one. Not in hip-hop, nowhere. Now, it

[12:29] wasn't really like really extreme sag.

[12:32] It was just like the shorts went from

[12:33] like mid thigh to like right above the

[12:35] knee, maybe a little longer. All right,

[12:38] so that's what we did. We were

[12:39] skateboarders. We didn't care what

[12:40] anyone else did. came to school and just

[12:43] ridiculed. Ridiculed by the jocks, by

[12:46] the by everybody. Didn't matter the kids

[12:49] were like black, white, male or female,

[12:50] like Mexican, Vietn we were like teased

[12:54] relentlessly.

[12:55] >> Everyone knew that Andy was uncool.

[12:56] >> Teased relentlessly, but we knew we

[12:58] liked it. It was a little extreme like

[13:00] you know, we liked it. We The point back

[13:02] then was to be different, not the same.

[13:04] Okay. Summer happens. That summer

[13:07] something happened in the world of

[13:09] hiphop where somebody starts sagging

[13:11] their their pants. Next year everybody

[13:14] and I just realized in that moment I was

[13:16] like okay this I was like they actually

[13:18] don't know. They actually don't know

[13:20] what they like. They really don't.

[13:22] They're just following. It wasn't

[13:23] following a trend. They actually haven't

[13:25] formed taste. And I was like, what I

[13:28] love about skateboarding, what I loved

[13:29] about certain forms of music, what I

[13:31] love about certain podcasters, and what

[13:34] I love about certain scientists, I can

[13:35] name certain scientists who just have

[13:37] the best taste.

[13:39] >> The in particular, this guy Jonathan

[13:41] Horton, neuropthmologist, like his

[13:43] papers are beautiful. They're

[13:45] articulate. The images are beautiful,

[13:47] the discoveries are clear, and he's just

[13:49] a he's a phenom. And but for a lot of

[13:52] years, you know, his papers kind of

[13:53] existed in good journals, but didn't

[13:55] really pop to the biggest ones. Then

[13:56] they popped. And what I realized was

[13:58] like

[13:59] >> whether it's in high school or as

[14:00] adults, people actually most people

[14:03] don't develop a sense of taste. Correct.

[14:05] They confuse what they like and don't

[14:07] like with what feels socially acceptable

[14:12] and what feels so different that it's

[14:14] uncomfortable to them. Now, I don't

[14:16] believe in doing things just to be

[14:17] different. That's not taste. That's

[14:18] doing things just to be different. I

[14:20] started realizing I was like, there's

[14:22] certain people in life that have an

[14:24] exquisite sense of taste. Rick Rubin's

[14:26] one of them. My friend David Cho is one

[14:28] of them. I believe you have taste. You

[14:30] think about how you know the people

[14:33] don't let the velvet British accent fool

[14:35] you. Sometimes the British accent can

[14:38] confuse people into thinking especially

[14:39] Americans into thinking that somebody's

[14:41] smarter than they are. I'm not trying to

[14:43] What do the kids say? I'm not trying to

[14:44] like puff you up here. Whe they have all

[14:45] sorts of names for this now, but but

[14:47] really like not I'm not just trying to

[14:49] flatter you, but if it flatters you,

[14:50] fine. like you're my friend, but also

[14:52] you think right at the boundaries

[14:55] between conflicting opinions

[14:58] and then you form a third new opinion

[15:00] usually that highlights something both

[15:04] beneficial and deficient about both.

[15:07] That is a skill. It's a super skill that

[15:09] most people don't possess. Most

[15:10] academics don't possess it frankly

[15:12] because careers are sort of built on

[15:13] like planting your flag and protecting

[15:15] it until you absolutely get battered and

[15:17] then you have to like like relent you

[15:19] know and then pivot to something new. I

[15:21] have a beautiful story about that

[15:22] actually. the but I I realize that taste

[15:26] is something that many people never

[15:28] develop right

[15:29] >> and the worst thing is when people who

[15:31] have taste think that their taste isn't

[15:34] taste that it's a misdirection uh

[15:37] internally or something and they don't

[15:39] cultivate that and I think that you know

[15:41] so high school taught me a heck of a lot

[15:44] it's true the baggies got too baggy the

[15:46] sag went way too far and we just sort of

[15:48] laughed as it took off we were like this

[15:51] is hilarious actually but happened in

[15:53] skateboarding, too. There were years

[15:54] later where uh this kid that I grew up

[15:57] with, I'm friendly with now, but Danny

[15:59] Way who jumped the Great Wall of China.

[16:01] Amazing. Jumped out of a helicopter. He

[16:03] has all these world records, but he was

[16:04] an aggro kid. He built the first mega

[16:06] ramps. I mean, he's gnarly. He was

[16:08] always just like so aggressive

[16:10] skateboarder,

[16:12] incredible, incredible athlete. I

[16:14] remember, you know, years later when he

[16:17] broke his neck surfing at Newport, he

[16:19] started working out with Paul Trek. He

[16:21] started and he built like a strong

[16:23] physique and I remember skateboarders

[16:25] being like that's for jocks

[16:26] skateboarders working out. Now if you

[16:28] look not all of them but a lot of

[16:30] skateboarders are into like lifting

[16:32] weights taking care of their body. Chris

[16:33] Joselyn Trey flipped the you know El

[16:35] Toro stairs this year. This was like a

[16:37] heroic feat. It was like breaking the

[16:39] 4-minute mile more or less is uh for

[16:42] skateboarding. I mean that dude clearly

[16:44] works out. He takes care of himself. So

[16:46] the things within a subculturing

[16:48] community that make that such a special

[16:51] community, what eventually happens is

[16:53] the community defies its own principles.

[16:56] It that you know the punks turn against

[16:58] they go that's not punk. Well, you know

[17:00] they did that to people like Joe Stummer

[17:01] who brought hiphop acts as openers.

[17:04] They've done that to friends of mine who

[17:05] are in the uh like highle band punk

[17:08] rock. They go they sold out actually no

[17:10] actually they're doing great and you're

[17:11] caught up in the eighth grade is what

[17:13] happened. But it it's not regressive.

[17:16] It's that taste is the hardest thing for

[17:19] people to understand because it forces

[17:21] them to really put a mirror in front of

[17:22] themselves and go, "What do I actually

[17:24] like and dislike?"

[17:25] >> It's a counterveailing force against

[17:27] both what's popular and the fickless of

[17:29] blowing in the wind. Like people confuse

[17:31] something that's popular for something

[17:32] that's tasteful. And you can also

[17:34] confuse something which is uh very

[17:37] tasteful, not popular as something

[17:39] that's bad. Like you said before, the

[17:41] difference between liking something and

[17:42] not liking something. You can like

[17:44] something which is untasteful. And I

[17:46] think the difference between taste and

[17:47] popularity and liking is taste is the

[17:49] ability to discern between good and not

[17:51] good. Like is this thing good in and of

[17:54] itself? And this is one of the problems.

[17:56] If you run up because everyone's looking

[17:57] for performance. If you run enough split

[17:59] tests, you will end up with a porn

[18:01] website. That's what happens. You run

[18:03] >> it all regresses to Can you explain this

[18:05] cuz I you and I have talked about this.

[18:06] It all regresses to porn eventually. Is

[18:09] everything is like if you basically if

[18:10] you want to get the most eyes and clicks

[18:12] on something, You keep going more more

[18:14] extreme, more salacious. Correct. And

[18:16] you end up in the dumpster heap of

[18:19] online content.

[18:20] >> Correct. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Going

[18:22] back to the the brain, what's your best

[18:24] advice for improving memory and focus?

[18:26] People understand brain fog is a thing.

[18:28] I'm struggling with that. I have lols

[18:30] with energy throughout the day.

[18:31] >> And now you want me to actually answer

[18:32] the question?

[18:33] >> Yeah, that'd be great. [laughter]

[18:34] >> Whenever you want.

[18:35] >> So,

[18:37] okay. So, brain fog is not a specific

[18:40] thing. It's an inability to focus. Let's

[18:42] get a couple of um core principles down.

[18:44] People with severe clinical grade ADHD

[18:47] can focus if they're doing something

[18:49] they really like.

[18:50] >> Y

[18:51] >> tells you something. It means the

[18:52] dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine,

[18:54] we call these the catakolamine systems

[18:55] of the brain and body that are involved

[18:57] in many things but focus among them are

[19:01] there. They're functional but the

[19:03] threshold to access them is too high.

[19:05] Okay. What does that mean? What it means

[19:07] is that people can learn to focus and

[19:12] they can get assistance in doing that by

[19:15] pushing on one of two ends or both. One

[19:17] is to ramp up the level of those

[19:18] chemicals. That's what things like

[19:19] Aderal, Viveance, Rolin and so on do. A

[19:22] study this last year

[19:24] >> out of Washington University in St.

[19:26] Louis, sort of the Harvard of the

[19:28] Midwest, if you will, although I think

[19:30] that's unfair to the Midwest and maybe

[19:32] we call Harvard the the WashU of the

[19:34] East. um

[19:37] showed that when you compare the

[19:40] attention improving effects of rolin to

[19:42] a great night's sleep, they're they're

[19:44] effectively equal.

[19:46] Hm. Some of these stimulants we know

[19:49] blunt stunt growth, excuse me. They

[19:52] stunt growth. We we know this, okay?

[19:54] They limit they limit ultimate height.

[19:56] They reduce sleep.

[19:58] >> So, they're circumventing a problem. So

[20:00] there's a new idea which is that maybe

[20:02] lower dosages of these these medicines

[20:05] combined with better sleep would be as

[20:07] effective a treatment. A lot of parents

[20:08] are erring that way. A lot of adults are

[20:11] erring that way too. That said, some of

[20:14] these medications can be useful in in

[20:16] extreme cases. If somebody wants to

[20:19] learn, let's just say if you want to

[20:20] learn, you want to focus and get rid of

[20:22] brain fog, you want to learn, it's here

[20:23] are the key steps. And I review some

[20:25] more of this in the book, but I'm during

[20:27] today's conversation and always I'm

[20:29] going to try and reference the book only

[20:31] in if people want more information. I'm

[20:32] just going to try and give people the

[20:33] information. I if people want the book,

[20:35] they can they can get it, but I don't

[20:36] want to like cloak the information.

[20:38] >> Everyone needs to go and buy the book.

[20:39] >> Well, thanks. Thanks for your support of

[20:41] the book. I did. There is a lot of

[20:42] >> You learn a bled for this thing, dude. I

[20:44] watched you I watched you basically

[20:46] >> eight years.

[20:47] >> You glanced off the bottom of insanity

[20:49] in order to be able to put this. Then

[20:51] the original word count was 120,000 and

[20:53] then you were forced to chop it down.

[20:55] And

[20:55] >> it's basically seven short books with

[20:57] with a long intro which is some story

[20:59] and context. Um, and I promise you can

[21:03] just navigate to a particular point in

[21:05] the book and understand what's going on.

[21:07] Get the tool and go. You can learn the

[21:09] science or not. Get the science. You can

[21:10] take the story and read it or not read

[21:12] it. But I figure leave it all on the

[21:15] mat. Look, I'm 51 next this later this

[21:17] month. Like I don't know if I'll make it

[21:19] to 52. I feel great. My bio market say

[21:21] I'm great, but you know, I mean, who

[21:24] knows? So, I'm I'm not living this life

[21:26] to try and, you know, soft pedal

[21:29] anything. I'm just going all in. So,

[21:32] here are the steps to learning.

[21:34] You need to focus. Obviously, to learn

[21:37] to focus, you need to be alert.

[21:40] To get alert, there are many things you

[21:42] can do, and I talk about all of them in

[21:43] the book. There are foundational things

[21:46] like sleep. All right, that's going to

[21:47] help you get alert and focused. But

[21:50] there are also things like exercise. We

[21:52] all hear that exercise makes our brain

[21:53] better. It makes us better at learning.

[21:55] Exercise makes you better at learning

[21:57] for two reasons. One, it increases the

[21:59] catakolamines, dopamine, epinephrine,

[22:01] and norepinephrine. So, in the four to

[22:03] six hours after exercise,

[22:06] you are more alert and you can focus

[22:08] better unless you exercise to

[22:10] exhaustion. If you have leg day for, you

[22:13] know, you 10 sets of 10 on the squats

[22:15] followed by a bunch of hamstring work

[22:17] and etc. Your brain's not going to be so

[22:20] good at focusing. But, you know, 45 to

[22:22] 75 minutes of hard training, not taken

[22:25] to extreme, a bit like what we did this

[22:27] morning, that was a little bit on the

[22:28] lighter side. Not just because we didn't

[22:30] have a whole lot of time,

[22:31] >> but you're going to come out of that

[22:33] more alert because you have more

[22:35] adrenaline in your body, more

[22:36] norepinephrine being released in your

[22:38] brain, and more dopamine being released

[22:40] in your brain. And dopamine is a

[22:42] critical component for learning. Okay.

[22:45] Focus then it becomes easier to access.

[22:48] And in your focus, what are you focusing

[22:50] on? You need to focus on making

[22:53] errors through genuine attempts to do

[22:56] something. Something physical, maybe a

[22:57] tennis serve or you're learning

[22:58] billiards, something cognitive, you're

[23:00] trying to learn a language. The error

[23:02] between what you currently do and what

[23:05] you're trying to do. The error is the

[23:08] signal that the neurons, the nerve cells

[23:10] need to change. It runs through a

[23:13] circuit involving the cerebellum and a

[23:15] bunch of other things. But that gap is

[23:16] what the brain tries to close. If you

[23:18] can do something, there's no reason for

[23:19] your brain to change. And the agitation

[23:21] you feel from those errors reflects

[23:24] elevated levels of epinephrine and

[23:26] norepinephrine in the body and brain

[23:28] respectively. And those tag literally

[23:31] chemically tag the synapses. I mean

[23:33] there's some additional steps but they

[23:34] tag those synapses so that then at night

[23:37] when you sleep the synapses rearrange

[23:40] and you close the gap between your

[23:42] current ability and the ability you're

[23:44] striving to achieve. That's how it

[23:46] works. So

[23:48] >> a a curiosity and willingness to learn

[23:50] gets you to the gate of learning.

[23:52] >> The making of errors through genuine

[23:54] attempts puts the key in and turns the

[23:56] key. The agitation is walking through

[23:58] that gate and then getting some sleep or

[24:00] maybe even uh you know a day or two

[24:03] later even if you don't sleep quite as

[24:04] well as you would like just some time

[24:06] for the synapses to rearrange. That's

[24:08] the last piece. There's an additional

[24:10] piece that can reinforce it all which is

[24:12] self- testing. If you want to get good

[24:14] at something and stay good at it and

[24:16] continue to get better at it, you need

[24:18] to self- test. Mental self- testing is

[24:20] the best way to consolidate learning and

[24:23] learn faster. What do I mean by that? I

[24:25] don't mean visualization. I mean asking

[24:28] yourself like for me if I want to make

[24:30] my memory better generally speaking I

[24:33] might think okay so that was uh

[24:34] September 11th 2001 where was I exactly?

[24:38] What were some of the details? Now that

[24:40] might be a something I might not want to

[24:42] think about. But if I were to say okay

[24:44] I'm going to go back to my um you know

[24:46] year one neuroscience graduate school

[24:48] training. Of course I know what a

[24:49] syninnapse is. I know what neurons are.

[24:50] I know what aster I know all this stuff.

[24:52] it's embedded so deeply in me I can

[24:53] almost do it in my sleep but then I

[24:55] think yeah that's right like what is the

[24:57] role of aststerytes and okay because

[24:59] that's stuff that's relevant to me when

[25:02] you hit the point where you can't

[25:03] remember something you go and look it up

[25:06] boom you've now closed that gap again

[25:08] and it reinforces those synapses that

[25:10] were weakening so if you're trying to

[25:12] learn something new or you want to get

[25:14] maintain information from way back when

[25:17] you need to retest this is why we used

[25:19] to make people retake their driver's

[25:20] tests where you know physic physicians

[25:22] need.

[25:23] >> Yeah. I mean, used to be you had to

[25:24] retake your driver's test. Not always

[25:26] behind the wheel. But used to you didn't

[25:28] used to just give people a license and

[25:29] turn them loose,

[25:30] >> right? Because they knew the ebbing

[25:31] house forgetting curve was going to come

[25:33] in and smash somebody in the face.

[25:34] >> That's right. The supplement industry is

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[26:31] and modern wisdom at checkout. I suppose

[26:33] one of the advantages at least with

[26:35] regards to driving practically is that

[26:37] people are re-triggering that on a

[26:40] multiple times per day basis.

[26:42] >> Yeah. or you get a ticket or you get

[26:43] into an accident. As my I feel like I'm

[26:45] quoting my dad a lot lately, you know.

[26:47] Um that's a good sign. Um my as my dad

[26:49] always says, you know, that the thing

[26:50] about speeding tickets is um they're

[26:52] expensive and money hurts. You know,

[26:55] speeding tickets were were $20. For most

[26:57] people, that's

[26:58] >> formative experience.

[26:59] >> It's not trivial, but it's not enough

[27:00] money to really like dent your uh your

[27:03] heavy heavy foot on the pedal. But if

[27:05] you give someone $300 ticket plus your

[27:08] insurance goes up, people speed less.

[27:10] you're going to remember that

[27:11] >> people speed less. I'm not saying it,

[27:13] you know, I mean, we could argue about

[27:15] about speeding laws, but money hurts,

[27:17] right? So, so that's how you learn. You

[27:21] have to bring yourself to those points

[27:22] of agitation. I wish id learned that in

[27:24] the third grade. I wish they had told me

[27:25] that. Now, many people find that they

[27:29] are very disciplined about certain

[27:30] things. They're getting their sets and

[27:32] reps and they're pushed past failure.

[27:34] They love their video games. They love

[27:35] perhaps mathematics but not literature.

[27:38] the things that we are not fascile in

[27:40] that don't come easy to us. There are

[27:43] two reasons to do some of that learning

[27:45] at at every stage of life. One is it

[27:47] enriches us. We often find that the

[27:49] things that are hardest to learn that we

[27:51] then learn are the most satisfying. This

[27:53] is the effort that precedes dopamine is

[27:56] far more reinforcing than when just

[27:58] dopamine comes in. You could say, well,

[28:00] you know, scrolling there's no um uh you

[28:03] know, there's no effort involved and

[28:05] that seems very reinforcing. That's more

[28:06] of a compulsive behavior after a certain

[28:08] point. Got kind of gets passed into

[28:10] reflex. But talk to anybody, anyone, and

[28:14] their life experience if they've had a

[28:16] life will say something like, "Oh yeah,

[28:18] everything was going great until this

[28:19] big thing. Then I overcame that big

[28:21] thing." And that was really the thing

[28:24] that taught me that I'm capable of even

[28:26] bigger things. Right? I mean, no, we

[28:28] don't really like success stories. We

[28:30] like um we like underdog often to

[28:34] success story pitfall come out of that.

[28:37] The hero's journey is something that we

[28:38] resonate with in part because it's so

[28:41] true but in part because for so many

[28:43] people it's not true. We know it's there

[28:46] but most most people don't embark on

[28:47] those things. And I think it's because

[28:48] we set too lofty an idea of what the

[28:51] hero's journey is. I mean for a lot of

[28:53] people it's about learning to do less. I

[28:56] know a lot of hard driving people it's

[28:57] about learning how to achieve more

[28:59] peace. It's about exploring ideas around

[29:01] spirituality or um fiction if they only

[29:05] read non-fiction. I mean, we all have to

[29:07] ask ourselves how much should we push

[29:08] ourselves to do things that are we're

[29:10] not just naturally inclined to do. I

[29:12] think a mixture of what we love to do

[29:14] and some of the things that we've just

[29:15] avoided because um they just seem too

[29:19] hard. I think there's real value in

[29:21] doing those things. And all the data on

[29:22] cognitive on maintaining cognitive

[29:24] abilities say will exercise make you

[29:26] smarter? No. It's necessary but not

[29:28] sufficient to make you smarter. You

[29:30] still have to go learn. And it without

[29:33] completely joking, I mean this is

[29:34] evidenced by many guys that spend hours

[29:36] upon hours in the gym and they're not

[29:37] brilliant people. They So they're

[29:39] exercising plenty. Their brain is

[29:41] clearly not getting bigger. They're not

[29:43] necessarily getting stupider, but

[29:44] they're not doing anything to make

[29:45] themselves smarter. You need to learn

[29:47] information. So there's that, but then

[29:50] there's also people say, "Is it cross

[29:52] word puzzles?" If you love doing

[29:54] crossword puzzles, guess what, my

[29:55] friend? you're they're not going to help

[29:57] keep your brain young. You got to do the

[29:59] the hard puzzles. You know, if if

[30:01] they're easy for you, then

[30:03] >> it's not going to help. You like chess,

[30:05] play go. You like checkers, learn chess.

[30:07] So, this is where I think people really

[30:10] lose out on the understanding that

[30:12] people who are striving maintain brain

[30:14] and bodily function for a long period of

[30:16] time. Their internal state is not

[30:18] necessarily one of like, oh yeah, I just

[30:20] love learning and so I just keep

[30:21] learning. I bet you Andy Stumpf, as calm

[30:24] and cool and collected as he is, even

[30:26] though so many of his tier one operator

[30:28] peers tell me it's really frustrating

[30:30] because Andy's really good at

[30:32] everything,

[30:33] >> I bet you if we looked at his internal

[30:35] state, his narrative is probably by now

[30:38] says, you know, you can do this, but is

[30:40] I doubt it's one of complete calm all

[30:42] the time. I'm sure there's he's just

[30:44] managing the external rep like he's not

[30:47] showing it. Yeah, talking about that, it

[30:49] seems like one of the things that gets

[30:50] in the way of a lot of people's lives is

[30:52] stress.

[30:54] >> What are your best protocols for

[30:56] managing stress? And I I realize some

[30:59] people may have heard this from me like

[31:00] 35,000 times. Morning sunlight. Yes. But

[31:04] that phys just do a long exhale when

[31:08] you're stressed. Do a long deliberate

[31:10] exhale. It slows your heart rate down

[31:13] through a phenomenon called respiratory

[31:14] sinus arrhythmia which sounds bad.

[31:16] People hear arrhythmia, it sounds bad,

[31:18] but we've all heard of the Vegas nerve.

[31:20] The vagus nerve collects sensory

[31:22] information from our visca, which is

[31:23] nerd speak for your internal organs. So

[31:25] your stomach, your spleen, your liver,

[31:27] sending that information up to your

[31:28] brain. Unconsciously, your brain is

[31:30] responding to that all the time.

[31:33] >> The vagus nerve also has a portion of it

[31:35] that goes from the brain to the heart

[31:37] and other organs. And there's one

[31:39] particular pathway that contacts and

[31:42] communicates with the sinoatrial node of

[31:45] your heart and it slows your heart rate

[31:46] down when you exhale. The reason is as

[31:50] you inhale and exhale the space

[31:52] available for your heart changes. So

[31:54] when you at some point your heart is a

[31:57] little bit smaller, right, during your

[31:58] breathing and the volume of blood that's

[32:01] in there moves more quickly. So your

[32:03] brain sends a signal through this vagus

[32:04] nerve pathway to slow your heart rate

[32:06] down. So when you exhale [sighs]

[32:10] deliberately, this is the key,

[32:11] deliberately, I don't think I've ever

[32:13] described it this way, you slow your

[32:15] heart rate down significantly. You

[32:17] offload carbon dioxide and your level of

[32:20] autonomic arousal, meaning sympathetic

[32:23] alert versus parasympathetic calm,

[32:25] balances, it tips more towards

[32:27] parasympathetic calm immediately. It's

[32:30] the fastest and most effective way to

[32:31] calm down fast. Better if you can do two

[32:34] big inhales first [snorts]

[32:37] [sighs and gasps]

[32:38] and then exhale all the way to lungs

[32:40] empty. That's the so-called

[32:41] physiological sigh discovered in the

[32:43] 1930s. Not by shamans, not by breath

[32:45] workers, but by physiologists. You have

[32:47] a dedicated set of neurons in the

[32:49] paraphial nucleus of your brain stem

[32:52] that capture the activity of this veagal

[32:55] pathway and slow your heart rate down.

[32:58] But the beauty of this mechanism is it

[33:01] also increases what's called HRV. The B

[33:05] most people know I want higher HRV. How

[33:07] do I do that? Well, I train V2 max. I do

[33:09] some high-intensity interval training.

[33:10] Great. I do some long-distance endurance

[33:12] training. Lower intensity. Great. You

[33:14] have higher V2 max. What is higher HRV?

[33:18] Heart rate variability reflects the

[33:20] number of times throughout the day and

[33:22] night that this pathway this pathway in

[33:24] the vagus signals your sinoatrial node

[33:28] to slow your heart rate down. In fact,

[33:30] you can increase your HRV pretty

[33:32] significantly if you just do 10

[33:34] deliberate exhales throughout your day.

[33:35] And then at night, look at your HRV. It

[33:37] will be significantly elevated.

[33:38] >> This is why I spoke about this last

[33:40] time. This is why I need to get you one

[33:41] of those mhealth lamp things for

[33:43] resonance breathing. We talked about

[33:44] this previously. So you it's an

[33:47] algorithm. It's a stone on the top of

[33:48] this lamp. I think they're about to

[33:49] launch this month this M.alth. Um you

[33:52] stone on the top of the lamp. You It

[33:54] vibrates. You breathe in time with the

[33:55] stone. It's got a 100 hertz uh sensor in

[33:58] it. So it's detecting your HIV all the

[34:00] time. And as it vibrates up and down,

[34:02] you breathe in time with it. And it

[34:04] modulates to maximize that arrhythmia.

[34:07] And if you were to see it, you would be

[34:09] swinging from 61 to 72

[34:13] >> to 62 to 70. So like 60 to

[34:18] And it is so [ __ ] cool. And the the

[34:20] sensation of doing that, if no one's

[34:21] ever done resonance breathing before, it

[34:23] is

[34:24] >> like after about 3 minutes, it almost

[34:26] feels like you've had a drink. It almost

[34:28] feels like you're a little bit drunk.

[34:30] It's very very when you get it. And the

[34:32] guy Jay Wilds, who's the main science

[34:34] dude behind it, he talks about precision

[34:36] with this because you can get uh a

[34:39] resonance breathing that's not doing BOF

[34:41] feedback. The problem with that is it

[34:42] everyone's resonance pattern is a little

[34:45] bit different. everyone's resonance

[34:46] pattern. You you might be 4.9 out, 4.9

[34:51] in and like 8 out and I might be 4.1 in

[34:56] and seven out. And that difference to

[34:58] him, he says makes a big difference. One

[35:00] final thing on that.

[35:01] >> He said to go from state change to trait

[35:03] change with regards to resonance

[35:05] breathing, you need to do over 12

[35:07] minutes. He says over 20, it doesn't

[35:10] start to uh

[35:11] >> a lot like meditation. Sounds like

[35:12] >> very similar. Very, very similar. And

[35:14] what's cool about this, what I love

[35:15] about this particular thing is you can

[35:16] grab it and you can hold it while

[35:17] watching a movie. So like if you're if

[35:19] you're just doing something else, it's

[35:20] silent. If you're even if you're with

[35:22] someone, um you've got the lamp next to

[35:23] the couch or you've got the lamp next to

[35:25] the bed, you can't sleep at night. You

[35:27] grab it, it vibrates. It's pretty much

[35:28] silent and you can just breathe in time.

[35:30] You can be doing watching something

[35:31] else. I haven't been able to read whilst

[35:33] doing it. That's a bit too cognitively

[35:34] demanding. But um you can breathe whilst

[35:36] watching the TV and that I've racked up

[35:39] hundreds of hours in the last year doing

[35:41] resonance breathing because I've grabbed

[35:42] that. All right, I'm going to go buy one

[35:44] of these. Don't give me one. Don't I

[35:45] don't I don't want And I don't want M to

[35:47] gift me one. I actually It's funny. I I

[35:49] love um still love finding new

[35:52] technologies, trying new things.

[35:54] >> New inventions are the best. They're

[35:55] just harder and harder to find new ones

[35:57] that people don't know about, which is

[35:59] why when I find one, I get I like chirp

[36:00] on about it for ages. Uh because I think

[36:02] I I think that it's cool.

[36:04] >> I do the same. I mean, I um it's funny

[36:06] throughout the book several times I

[36:08] mention because I talk about behavioral

[36:09] tools. I would say 80% of behavioral

[36:11] tools. And then there's a lot of

[36:12] discussion about pharmarmacology and

[36:14] supplements about the pros and cons of

[36:16] everything from nicotine to amphetamines

[36:18] and and on and on. But multiple times I

[36:21] mentioned some of the devices that Sauna

[36:23] Space, a company I'm not affiliated with

[36:25] at all. Sauna Space makes these uh

[36:27] indoor red light saunas that are

[36:29] incandescent. They heat up right away.

[36:32] >> But I also I travel with a with one of

[36:34] their red lights. It fills the whole

[36:36] room. I love those things. Raw optics

[36:38] has these incredible non-flicker

[36:40] shortwavelength uh eliminated. They well

[36:43] actually same bulbs go from daylight to

[36:45] you can get candle light at night with

[36:47] with no flicker and it's LED because

[36:49] incandescent aren't very energy

[36:50] efficient. And I have no relationship to

[36:52] raw optics or to sona space. Like I know

[36:55] the people there now because I've

[36:56] mentioned them enough times. They've

[36:58] reached out. But I just enjoy sharing

[37:00] things that I find useful physiological

[37:03] size or or you know these particular

[37:06] lights. Like I just like sharing what I

[37:07] think might be useful to people and some

[37:09] people have more disposable income than

[37:11] others. I think that you know that

[37:12] nowadays it seems like the are we

[37:14] overoptimizing becomes a big question

[37:16] like are we overoptimizing?

[37:17] >> I did a huge essay about it long ago.

[37:19] >> No, I listened and I think it's um it's

[37:21] an important question. I mean to me

[37:23] optimization is just taking the like

[37:25] what do you got today? What's on your

[37:26] plate today? And how do you feel best

[37:28] and do best in that context? And this

[37:30] brings me back to something that I

[37:31] failed to say earlier, which is that top

[37:33] down versus bottom up dynamic tension.

[37:37] Pretty much everything that's in the

[37:38] book, morning cortisol high, nighttime

[37:41] cortisol low, um physiological size,

[37:43] etc. They're all of those things put you

[37:46] in the best position, put these circuits

[37:49] in the best possible position for you to

[37:51] have a more adaptive, less reactive,

[37:54] it's not meant to rhyme, more adaptive,

[37:56] less reactive life, right? to be more

[37:59] aware of the goodness in life and less

[38:01] reactive to the BS that you have no

[38:02] control over. This kind of thing to be

[38:04] less prone to impulse and more prone to

[38:06] focusing on what really motivates you,

[38:08] the people that you love and doing the

[38:10] right things in accordance with that.

[38:12] You know, we all know that a bad night's

[38:14] sleep cripples this circuit such that

[38:16] the bottomup influences take over. We

[38:19] know this, right? People sleep less.

[38:20] They're more prone to they have less

[38:22] impulse control across the board and

[38:24] they become slightly psychotic also,

[38:27] especially if they don't sleep well for

[38:28] three or four nights in a row. But when

[38:31] you have these top down mechanisms

[38:35] really reinforced by high morning

[38:37] cortisol, low nighttime cortisol, great

[38:39] sleep, you're buffering stress well, you

[38:41] do a learning bout or two. And I do

[38:43] refer to them as bouts because it should

[38:44] feel like a bout.

[38:47] uh that's when your life is actually

[38:49] headed in the direction you want. Uh it

[38:51] doesn't matter where you're starting

[38:52] from.

[38:53] >> That's when your life starts really

[38:55] heading in the direction that you want

[38:56] consistently. And these things don't

[38:57] take a lot of time. In fact, they save

[39:00] time because they position you to be at

[39:02] your best. Show up as your best. That's

[39:04] not a marketing ploy. It's just true.

[39:06] And some people, now I'm skipping around

[39:07] a bit, but I want to make sure I close a

[39:09] few hatches. Some people might say, "How

[39:10] alert and focused do you need to be to

[39:12] learn?" We rarely talk about this. Like

[39:14] one thing I really emphasize in the book

[39:16] is like people talk about be present. I

[39:18] give a tool that explains exactly how to

[39:21] be present. Okay.

[39:22] >> Okay. So we'll talk about that. But how

[39:23] alert do you need to be in order to f

[39:25] focus and learn? What what's the state

[39:28] of mind?

[39:29] >> Alert and calm. What is that? Because

[39:31] that might mean something different to

[39:32] you than it means to me. How do you stay

[39:33] there? Okay. Have you ever played that

[39:35] game hot hands where you know I put my

[39:38] hands on top of yours? Wouldn't that be

[39:41] nice? I put my hands on top of yours.

[39:42] >> That's what we did all morning. That's

[39:43] literally that we didn't go to the gym.

[39:45] We just

[39:45] >> put my hands on top of yours and we play

[39:47] a game where you're going to flip your

[39:48] hands over and you try and smack my

[39:49] hands. Okay. And I'm going to try and

[39:50] pull them out of your way. And you're

[39:51] younger than I am, so you think you have

[39:52] faster reflexes, but you don't. No, I'm

[39:54] just kidding. You probably do.

[39:55] >> You're the person whose hands are on on

[39:57] top. So, let's say my hands are on top

[39:58] and you're ready to flip your hands over

[40:00] and tag me. You're the person with hands

[40:02] on top and you're in that ready

[40:04] anticipation of what's going to happen

[40:06] next. That's the state of mind for

[40:08] optimal learning.

[40:10] >> That's the state of mind you want to be

[40:12] in. So, when you sit down to read

[40:13] something and you're like, I read that

[40:14] whole page and I didn't learn anything.

[40:16] Of course, you didn't because your brain

[40:18] was you're running four or five

[40:19] different circuits at once. In order to

[40:22] really turn on focus, you need to turn

[40:23] off a bunch of other circuits that are

[40:25] or you need to lower the activity in

[40:27] those other circuits. You can't be

[40:28] thinking about at the same time, okay,

[40:30] what's the how do my feet feel? How's

[40:32] what's my heartbeat? What's going on

[40:33] online? What's my girlfriend thinking?

[40:36] What is she you? No, you need to be

[40:37] focused. What is focus? Focus is

[40:40] obviously in a tunnel, but then how much

[40:43] alertness? I don't think anyone's ever

[40:44] described it before, but when you look

[40:46] at levels of arousal in a game like

[40:48] Hotands, and believe it or not, there

[40:49] are some equivalent data on this or data

[40:52] on the equivalent sort of thing. When

[40:54] you're waiting for a time trial and

[40:56] you're waiting for something to happen,

[40:57] you have to react quickly. That's the

[40:58] state of mind you want to be in to learn

[41:00] something that's hard for you but

[41:02] beneficial for you. Period. End of

[41:03] story. So hopefully that'll help people

[41:05] kind of find that mental groove. And

[41:07] then as you learn, if you find you're

[41:09] getting too stressed, that doesn't that

[41:11] brings down reaction time. It actually

[41:13] you you start making false positives.

[41:15] You start moving your hands away before

[41:16] the person even does anything. Okay,

[41:19] >> so

[41:21] hopefully that will help people

[41:22] understand the level of attention and

[41:24] why it's so tiring after about 90

[41:26] minutes

[41:26] >> and you're like, "Okay, I need to take a

[41:28] break." Somewhere along the way, low

[41:31] energy just gets accepted as a part of

[41:33] getting older. Turns out there's a

[41:34] reason for that. As we age, our

[41:35] mitochondria, the parts of our cells

[41:37] that power us, become weaker and make

[41:38] less energy, which is why I'm such a

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[42:30] That's timeline.commodernwisdom

[42:32] and modernwm wisdom at checkout. What

[42:35] about presence? How can people be more

[42:37] present?

[42:37] >> Okay, so this one really surprised me.

[42:39] So the final chapter of the book is

[42:41] about personal development. Okay. Um I

[42:43] was going to do a chapter about

[42:44] relationships, but for various reasons I

[42:46] felt like that wasn't appropriate. Then

[42:48] I thought about relationship to self. I

[42:50] thought well that's kind of weird

[42:51] because what is relationship to self?

[42:52] it's too squishy uh a theme that like

[42:55] personal development step back and start

[42:57] asking questions about

[43:00] first acknowledge

[43:02] step back and acknowledge there's a lot

[43:04] out there about how to get through

[43:06] trauma but what are the unifying themes

[43:08] and can I put a structure on those

[43:10] themes that helps people navigate all of

[43:12] that what's the business of having a

[43:15] great life so we talk about that we hear

[43:18] be present there's this massive study

[43:20] out of Harvard a few years ago that a

[43:22] wandering ing mind is an unhappy mind.

[43:24] I'm sure you're familiar with the data.

[43:25] You ping people throughout the day. You

[43:27] ask them what they're doing and how

[43:28] present they are to it. Turns out

[43:30] happiness is really about being present,

[43:32] having your attention what's called

[43:34] present tethered awareness. You're

[43:36] focused on what's happening now, even if

[43:38] it's unpleasant. People report that as

[43:41] being much happier on average than if

[43:43] their mind is someplace else.

[43:45] Daydreaming has its place, but

[43:47] daydreaming is usually mind wandering to

[43:50] bad things, things of past, things of

[43:52] future. We're just not present.

[43:53] >> Distraction is literally unhappiness.

[43:55] >> Yes. Yes. And the converse is also true

[43:59] that focusing on what you're doing is a

[44:00] great way to build up your mental

[44:02] health. So then I started asking because

[44:04] I'm a biologist, not a psychologist,

[44:06] what the hell is presence? Does it mean

[44:09] um anchoring my visual attention? What

[44:11] how do I be present? Because otherwise

[44:13] it's just a bumper sticker and otherwise

[44:15] I look I love psychologists they have

[44:16] these beautiful studies that discover

[44:17] phenomena but then it's like if you're

[44:20] going to say like fall asleep what is

[44:22] falling asleep and we can talk about

[44:23] that. What is being present? Okay so be

[44:26] here now I think Ram DS said that great

[44:28] be here now how turns out that if we

[44:32] step back and we just say okay what does

[44:33] the brain do? Don't worry this won't

[44:35] turn into a whole lecture. What does the

[44:36] brain do? The brain takes physical

[44:38] phenomenon in our environment, photons

[44:40] of light, sound waves, mechanical

[44:43] pressure, chemicals through the nose and

[44:44] mouth, translates those from sensation

[44:47] to perception. Cool. Then we also can

[44:50] remember things, predict things. It's

[44:51] basically what the brain does and it can

[44:53] change itself. So that's neuroscience in

[44:55] a nutshell.

[44:57] How do we move our brain from thinking

[44:59] about the future and the past to what's

[45:01] happening now? Okay. So that means

[45:03] perceptions about what's only in our

[45:06] immediate physical environment. It means

[45:08] not thinking, not doing, not planning,

[45:12] but asking questions about the immediate

[45:14] physical environment. So we can do this

[45:15] just now. Right now, and you can do this

[45:17] anytime you want to be more present. And

[45:18] I want to just preface this by saying

[45:21] what I'm about to describe is not the

[45:23] end point. It's the way to get into the

[45:25] present. But what you do next is

[45:27] critically important, too. First, you

[45:29] ask trivial questions about your

[45:31] immediate environment that can only be

[45:33] answered accurately by focusing on the

[45:36] present. So, for instance, uh what does

[45:39] it smell like in here right now? Like

[45:42] like I'm not getting much for me, but

[45:47] okay. Um what is uh like how many cans

[45:51] are on this table? One, two, three.

[45:53] There's a couple other vessels. Four

[45:56] cans find it. Okay. All right. Answering

[45:59] two or three trivial questions,

[46:01] seemingly trivial questions about your

[46:02] present environment. How many people are

[46:04] in line in front of me? How loud are the

[46:06] kids screaming in the back seat? Is it

[46:07] louder or softer than last time? Things

[46:10] like that

[46:13] bring our mind toward obviously

[46:16] perception of the present. Duh. There's

[46:18] nothing, you know, profound about that.

[46:22] But it's what they take our mind away

[46:23] from that's critically important. The

[46:26] brain, there's a whole section on

[46:28] thinking. What is thinking? The brain

[46:30] works in what are called dynamic

[46:31] attractor states, which as nerds speak

[46:33] for, if I take a ball bearing and I put

[46:35] it on a on a plate, it essentially can

[46:37] move in any direction. There's some

[46:39] details related to the smoothness of the

[46:41] bearing and the plate, etc. But if I put

[46:42] a little groove on that plate and I tilt

[46:46] the plate slightly, it obviously will go

[46:47] toward the groove. It'll get into the

[46:48] groove. And then if I turn that groove

[46:49] into a I make it more concave and

[46:51] eventually a trench, the ball bearing

[46:52] stays there. That's how your brain

[46:54] works. The more that you see the

[46:57] thought, the more that you see the

[46:58] perception, the more that brain circuits

[47:02] are devoted to things related to that

[47:04] thought or perception. So when you want

[47:06] to be present, something that we know

[47:08] from excellent data,

[47:10] this large study at Harvard, but

[47:12] subsequent studies as well, is so

[47:13] critical for happiness. The way to

[47:16] practice that is to learn from taking

[47:18] your mind from thinking and doing and

[47:20] remembering about things of past and

[47:22] future to just anchoring your perception

[47:25] to the present. It doesn't require

[47:27] meditating. Meditation is one form of

[47:30] that. What what are we doing when we

[47:31] meditate? We close our eyes. We focus on

[47:32] our breathing that's here now and we

[47:35] focus on quote unquote third eye center

[47:37] or whatever. But that's actually

[47:39] interosception. And it's focusing on our

[47:41] internal bodily state, which is not that

[47:45] great, frankly, if you look at the data

[47:47] for being present in a happy way. Most

[47:49] people who are overly focused on their

[47:51] internal state in the present

[47:53] >> are like, "My heart rate is increasing,

[47:55] my heart rate's too low, I'm sweating,

[47:57] I'm uncomfortable." You start thinking

[47:58] about the fact that like your your you

[48:00] know, your boxers are like pulled up on

[48:02] one leg. You know, they that's not the

[48:05] way to get present and calm and aware.

[48:07] The way to get present, calm, and aware

[48:09] and be able to move forward from that in

[48:11] a in the best way is to ask questions

[48:13] about your immediate physical

[48:14] environment. Once you do that, remember

[48:17] that's just the first step. The second

[48:19] step is to use that heightened level of

[48:23] awareness to ask yourself, what do I

[48:25] want to what do I actually want to do

[48:27] next? What do I want to say next? What

[48:29] do I want to think about next? This is

[48:30] the way that you take control of your

[48:32] thoughts. And I won't go into all the

[48:35] detail now, but thoughts have this way

[48:38] they seed each other. So I think we've

[48:40] done this thing about the cat, right? I

[48:42] think we did that previously. We say

[48:43] like, you know, think of a cat. Um,

[48:45] okay, you know, tell me about it. People

[48:47] say, well, it has soft, it's this color,

[48:49] it's this that you're starting to

[48:51] recruit more and more neural machinery

[48:53] toward the thought about this trivial

[48:56] thing that we call a a seed idea, which

[48:58] is the cat. But if you just let your

[49:00] brain run like through the tributaries

[49:04] of its like own choices, you end up in a

[49:07] pretty unhappy place.

[49:08] >> So the key to being a high agency happy

[49:11] person, it turns out, is being able to

[49:13] control your thinking and bring it back

[49:14] to the present. But then you don't just

[49:16] stay there thinking about your

[49:17] breathing. That's like kind of

[49:19] sociopathic, right? It's weird. It's

[49:20] like it's just weird. You ask questions

[49:23] about your immediate environment and

[49:25] then you pivot into the person that you

[49:28] want to be in terms of action and

[49:30] thinking and speaking or maybe silence

[49:33] is called for

[49:34] >> and so none of this is psychology. This

[49:36] is all 100% neuroscience. I get into the

[49:39] underlying mechanisms and it fully

[49:41] supports everything I just described I

[49:43] should say is fully supported by the

[49:46] work that shows that people who have

[49:48] heightened levels of activity in the

[49:50] so-called default mode network. This is

[49:52] the network of activity that just takes

[49:53] place when you're doing essentially

[49:54] nothing are more depressed.

[49:56] >> Too much activity in the default mode

[49:58] network. Yes, some is associated with

[50:01] creativity, but usually elevated levels

[50:04] of activity in the default mode network

[50:06] are what you find in depressed people

[50:08] because their brain is just kind of all

[50:09] over the place and they feel

[50:10] discombobulated.

[50:12] >> Unless we're in sleep, we need to

[50:13] organize our internal landscape. The

[50:15] problem is most people hear you need to

[50:17] organize your internal landscape and

[50:19] they think oh you have to get up in the

[50:20] morning do 10 breaths of meditation get

[50:22] your and they think about it as

[50:23] rigidity. I'm talking about now and

[50:25] throughout the book it's all about the

[50:27] things that set you up to lean into life

[50:30] so that you're more reflexively more

[50:33] effective. You're reflexively happy.

[50:34] You're reflexively more adaptive. You're

[50:36] reflexively more present. And I think

[50:38] this is where the overoptimization

[50:40] conversation is relevant. None of these

[50:44] practices are an end in and of

[50:46] themselves, right? I mean, I think

[50:48] nowadays because people go to the gym

[50:49] and they get like the the aesthetic

[50:51] effect they want. They think like, "Oh,

[50:52] you go to the gym to do that." I go to

[50:54] the gym so that I can sprint for the

[50:56] plane, open the pickle jar, move all the

[50:59] boxes on moving day, up and down the

[51:01] stairs, and feel great, tired, but great

[51:03] at the end of the day. And I like being

[51:06] strong for life. I like having endurance

[51:08] so I can go hiking in Yeused. If we go,

[51:10] let's go tomorrow. We're going and

[51:12] carrying 80 lb packs. We do it tomorrow.

[51:14] And yeah, it hurts a little bit, but

[51:15] like in a good way. And you can sprint

[51:18] for the plane and not cough up a lung.

[51:20] You can, you know, there's a section on

[51:22] mobility, which is, you know, four

[51:24] trivial mobility exercises. You know,

[51:26] get your knee behind your glutes once a

[51:27] day, squat down, do bend and look up at

[51:30] the ceiling like to a right angle, be

[51:32] able to look up on both sides, identify

[51:33] any, you know, kind of mismatches on

[51:35] either side and work through those.

[51:37] That's so I can like lean down and grab

[51:39] things and move so I can reach and grab

[51:40] things. It's like you threw me the

[51:42] protein drink out there. I just for the

[51:44] record I caught it.

[51:44] >> You did catch it.

[51:45] >> I I'm not so proud of that. I'm just

[51:47] pissed at your camera guy. We'll

[51:48] probably wait until I drop it and then

[51:50] film that one. So for the They're

[51:51] running a diabolical scheme here at uh

[51:54] at Modern Wisdom where they wait for you

[51:56] to f up and then they film it. But when

[51:58] you get it right No, I'm just kidding.

[51:59] No one's capturing. I'm just kidding.

[52:01] Actually, I I don't care about I'm not

[52:03] obviously my hand eye coordination is

[52:05] not something I I'm like really

[52:07] concerned about, but um nor do I boast

[52:09] about. But the point being that it's all

[52:11] about being able to move through life

[52:13] with confidence and agency and and

[52:15] awareness and sensitivity to what you

[52:18] need to be sensitive to and being and

[52:20] saying to the things that you need to

[52:22] say to. That's a really good life. It's

[52:25] not about the tools. It's about what the

[52:27] tools open up for you.

[52:28] >> Yeah. I think a lot of people have an

[52:29] issue with the overoptimization thing

[52:31] because it feels like more homework.

[52:32] They're already overwhelmed. They're

[52:34] already working hard. The sort of people

[52:35] that read your book and listen to your

[52:37] podcast and are fans of modern wisdom,

[52:39] they're already contorting themselves

[52:40] into a pretzel trying to get more out of

[52:42] their day. They've already got standards

[52:44] that are so impossibly high that they

[52:45] can't meet them. And now when they

[52:47] sometimes hear people saying you need to

[52:48] do this and do this and do this and

[52:50] this, they feel like they're

[52:51] overwhelmed. And the difference being

[52:54] you can make yourself fragile if your

[52:58] entire performance and your whole life

[53:00] is predicated on this kind of rain dance

[53:02] ritual that you're only able to do the

[53:05] stuff if you have had this like weird

[53:07] two hours of foreplay beforehand. I

[53:09] understand why that's the case.

[53:10] >> Two hours of foreplay. Yeah, that's

[53:11] that's a lot. I knew that would be I

[53:13] mean what's that?

[53:13] >> So nothing people might argue it's not

[53:15] enough.

[53:16] >> Yeah, that's true.

[53:17] >> That is true.

[53:17] >> I guess it depends on how much time you

[53:18] got.

[53:19] >> That's true. You you could have a it

[53:20] could be a Sunday. But I think at least

[53:23] from my experience periodizing your life

[53:25] is one of the best ways to think about

[53:26] this. And a lot of people especially

[53:27] toward the end of their 20s especially a

[53:29] lot of guys go through this mano pause.

[53:32] They go through this period where they

[53:34] realize that all of the strategies,

[53:36] tools, habits, routines, modes of

[53:39] getting recognition and and and and you

[53:41] know success from the people around

[53:42] them, they've stopped working and they

[53:44] want to become something better. It's

[53:46] kind of like a second adolescence. It's

[53:47] actually a more important adolescence, I

[53:49] think, than the one from, you know, 13

[53:50] to kind of like 17. And that, okay, what

[53:53] sort of person, what sort of man do I

[53:55] want to become in this world? I don't

[53:57] know, maybe women go through it, too,

[53:59] but but I I I know that I see it in a

[54:01] lot of guys, especially dudes that are a

[54:02] little bit more deep thinkers and maybe

[54:03] they played the game

[54:05] >> in their 20s. They were successful

[54:07] perhaps maybe at playing the game.

[54:08] >> Which game are you referring to?

[54:09] >> Like the social norms game. I'm going to

[54:11] like, you know, contort myself or like

[54:13] chameleon a little bit. I'm not going to

[54:14] bring up quite what I think or what I

[54:16] mean or my my

[54:17] >> Well, that can be adaptive, too. I mean,

[54:19] especially in the age of camera phones.

[54:21] I mean, when I grew up, you say

[54:22] something outrageous at a party,

[54:24] >> just like, you know, not offensive, but

[54:26] just outrageous. And it may land, it

[54:29] might not land, but you don't worry that

[54:31] it's going to land everywhere.

[54:32] >> Concretized on the internet for the rest

[54:33] of time.

[54:34] >> Yeah. I mean, I I And this is not just

[54:35] for public facing people. I mean, I feel

[54:37] like um you're probably a great dancer,

[54:39] but you know, I think like a lot of

[54:41] people are are not, right? a lot of men

[54:43] in particular are not um and

[54:46] >> you know you'd like to be able to like

[54:47] go to a wedding and dance and have fun

[54:49] and not think about how that's going to

[54:50] show up.

[54:51] >> Yeah. Is someone going to mock me for

[54:52] this video? So anyway, you guys get get

[54:54] to this period and they think what sort

[54:55] of a person am I going to be? And that

[54:57] to me and for me and for a lot of my

[54:59] friends as well, I needed to basically

[55:02] bundle together quite a lot of locking.

[55:04] I needed to lock the [ __ ] in. I needed

[55:06] to lock in for an extended period of

[55:08] time. And from the outside that might

[55:09] look like uh an overreiance on protocols

[55:12] and self-experimentation and optimizing

[55:15] and doing things like that. But what

[55:16] they don't see when they look at

[55:18] somebody that's going through that

[55:19] period is I was basically paying a debt

[55:22] that I had slowly accumulated over a

[55:24] decade and a half of running nightclubs.

[55:26] Like I will go toe-to-toe with pretty

[55:28] much anyone for degenerate behavior in

[55:30] my 20s, right? I ran more parties, did

[55:33] more of the things that you're not

[55:34] supposed to do in my 20s than almost

[55:37] anyone else. I met a million people on

[55:39] the front door of nightclubs. I attended

[55:40] a thousand parties.

[55:42] >> Thousand parties. That's how many we

[55:43] ran. We had a million were very

[55:45] different.

[55:45] >> We had a million we had a million

[55:46] million lifetime entries. Had a great

[55:47] time to venues.

[55:49] >> Um so I'm like I've served my time and

[55:52] then I needed to I wanted to become

[55:54] somebody that was a little bit more

[55:55] well-rounded that understood himself

[55:56] that had a great con all of those

[55:58] things. I was like okay. So, if you look

[56:00] at me from 28 to 32, 33 in isolation, it

[56:05] actually looks like probably quite a

[56:06] fragile um highly strong life where I've

[56:09] got this elaborate morning routine

[56:10] that's going on for a couple of hours

[56:12] and I'm like getting up and getting

[56:14] sunlight my eyes before it's cool and

[56:15] doing the lateral flow eye movement as

[56:18] you're ambulating through the thing.

[56:19] Like, do you putting salt Redmond salt

[56:21] in water that I had to import from

[56:23] America because I once read in some

[56:24] random blog post that it might work.

[56:26] like all of this [ __ ] before it was kind

[56:27] of popularized and then journaling and

[56:30] breath work and meditation and reading a

[56:32] book and doing space repetition with

[56:33] Anky flashcards and all of this [ __ ]

[56:36] Why? Well, because I wanted to like

[56:38] discover what worked for me and I wanted

[56:40] to like rip myself out of this hole that

[56:43] I dug myself into and my thing around

[56:45] the the optimization like guilt that a

[56:48] lot of people feel or fear that they

[56:49] have this kind of push back against the

[56:51] the fragility that definitely comes

[56:53] along with it. Like there is such a

[56:54] thing as like the fear of or the worry

[56:59] that you have of trying to be optimal

[57:00] killing you more quickly than your uh

[57:03] suboptimal behaviors. Like you're so

[57:05] stressed about this. But there is also a

[57:07] period I think that you can really use

[57:09] it to like get the momentum moving.

[57:10] Okay, I've got a training practice. I

[57:12] understand how to meditate. I've stopped

[57:14] going to bed late. I've started getting

[57:15] up on time. I've started, you know,

[57:17] those are things that then carry you

[57:18] forward. And you can either try and

[57:20] slowly ingrain them over a long period

[57:22] of time or you can navy seal hell week

[57:24] it and bundle it together. And that's

[57:25] what I did. I've learned from over a

[57:27] thousand podcast episodes, the easier

[57:28] that you make your health routine, the

[57:30] more consistent you'll be. It's like

[57:31] golf, right? You want to keep it simple

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[58:17] That's drinkaggone.comwisdom.

[58:21] >> I came on this podcast because I was

[58:22] excited to talk to you and yes, I'm out

[58:26] on the book thing, but I like learning

[58:28] from you. So, can I just like take in

[58:29] what you said for a sec? Um

[58:31] >> cuz um happy to share what I know, but I

[58:34] want to I want to think about this

[58:35] because I always learn with you. So, one

[58:39] thing that you're so excellent at and

[58:41] that I'm trying to do more of by way of

[58:43] example from you is um you are very good

[58:47] at spotting um contradictions and as I

[58:51] said earlier trying to you know like

[58:53] clashes and contradictions and trying to

[58:56] export something of value like a new

[58:58] direction from that. So, you know, I

[59:01] will say and I I acknowledge you in the

[59:03] book for many reasons, by the way. Um,

[59:06] just, you know, we get these conflicting

[59:09] messages inside of any space. Okay? So,

[59:13] um, you have so much within you. If you

[59:15] do the right things, you can access

[59:16] these things. Okay? Um, if you do all

[59:18] these things, you're actually a weaker

[59:20] version of yourself because if you don't

[59:21] do those, not doing the hard thing now

[59:22] becomes the hard thing. Okay? I mean,

[59:25] hell week is a week for a reason. It's

[59:27] not hell year. Although, talking to

[59:30] people who are instructors and SEAL

[59:31] training and this kind I mean it it I do

[59:33] think they are um identifying people

[59:36] that are that have something different

[59:38] in them

[59:39] >> as opposed to building that up. I think

[59:41] they build it up in those people but I

[59:42] think it that filter is really unique. I

[59:44] think for the rest of us um you know I

[59:47] don't you'd probably make it through but

[59:48] for the rest of us um

[59:52] the the real question I think is how do

[59:55] we resolve all these tools and

[59:59] contradictions that are out there and

[1:00:00] put a structure on them. Forgive me for

[1:00:02] going slow here but for once I'm I'm

[1:00:04] speaking slow enough. Okay. So years ago

[1:00:07] when I was a graduate student uh a guy

[1:00:10] who is really a luminary in the field of

[1:00:12] neuroendocrinology said to me he said

[1:00:14] you know um it's rarely the people who

[1:00:17] make like the key discoveries that go on

[1:00:19] to be associated with um the great

[1:00:22] findings of a field. I go how can that

[1:00:24] possibly be? And he said it's almost

[1:00:26] always people that are in that field or

[1:00:29] educate themselves on that field that

[1:00:31] put a structure on it. And he said, 'Th

[1:00:33] this is why it's important to publish

[1:00:35] research papers, but also regularly

[1:00:37] publish reviews. And I always made it a

[1:00:38] point for about every three research

[1:00:40] papers I published to publish one high

[1:00:42] quality review, not some like, you know,

[1:00:44] like yellow ribbon journal, you know,

[1:00:47] um, review because you can publish a

[1:00:49] review anywhere, but like real

[1:00:51] compendiums of where the the knowledge

[1:00:53] is now. Like I took those very very

[1:00:55] seriously, like annual reviews and so

[1:00:57] forth very seriously. And why? because

[1:01:00] they help you organize your mind around

[1:01:02] what's happening and they help other

[1:01:04] people do that too because most people

[1:01:05] aren't going to take the time to do it

[1:01:06] in the health and optimization space.

[1:01:08] Now, there's so many tools, right? So,

[1:01:11] what we need and what I try and

[1:01:12] highlight in the book are principles.

[1:01:14] >> Yep.

[1:01:14] >> High morning cortisol means low

[1:01:16] nighttime cortisol means high nighttime

[1:01:18] melatonin means great sleep means better

[1:01:20] days and so on and so forth. You're

[1:01:22] you're essentially got the gears of the

[1:01:24] system linking together with that.

[1:01:26] Understand that. And then yes, it's true

[1:01:30] bright light is the best way to spo

[1:01:31] spike your morning cortisol, but

[1:01:33] exercise is pretty effective, too.

[1:01:34] Sometimes you don't have access to

[1:01:35] either. Sometimes you have access to

[1:01:37] both. Sometimes you're on a plane, you

[1:01:38] can't but you can start doing other

[1:01:40] things to nudge the system or keep the

[1:01:42] system online when you have 30 seconds.

[1:01:45] You also understand that if you miss a

[1:01:46] day or two, you're okay. Y because you

[1:01:49] set up the system through good behaviors

[1:01:51] going into it. You don't have to

[1:01:52] dissolve into a puddle of your own tears

[1:01:53] cuz you're on a plane and they don't

[1:01:55] have any caffeinated coffee and you

[1:01:56] can't do your air squats and like I mean

[1:01:58] come on, no one wants to be that.

[1:02:02] Exactly. So you're you once you

[1:02:05] understand a bit of the principles that

[1:02:07] organize the mechanisms, you're in a

[1:02:09] great position to be truly strong of

[1:02:12] mind and body because you can organize

[1:02:13] information. And the same thing is true

[1:02:16] like in chapter seven of the book on

[1:02:17] personal development. I took a step back

[1:02:19] and I said,"What are the unifying

[1:02:21] features of all the trauma therapies?

[1:02:24] What are the unifying features of how to

[1:02:26] have a great life?" Let's just start

[1:02:27] with how to have a great life. James

[1:02:29] Hollis came on my podcast. He's 84 years

[1:02:32] old. Surprised the [ __ ] out of me when

[1:02:33] he said, "Here's how you have a great

[1:02:35] life. It involves four things. The first

[1:02:37] three are shut up." That's the first

[1:02:41] one. I go, "Shut up." And he goes,

[1:02:42] "Yeah, someone's always got it worse

[1:02:44] than you. Nobody wants to hear you

[1:02:46] whine. Have gratitude for what you do

[1:02:48] have. If you're alive, you got something

[1:02:50] to be grateful for.

[1:02:51] >> Well, I didn't really expect that from

[1:02:52] him. You know, he's like this

[1:02:53] 85-year-old Yungian analyst. He talks

[1:02:55] about the unconscious mind. He goes,

[1:02:56] "Shut up. Your day should start with

[1:02:59] Huberman. Shut up. Whatever's got you

[1:03:01] bothered, shut up. You got it better

[1:03:03] than somebody."

[1:03:03] >> It's interesting. I wish someone had

[1:03:04] said that to you earlier, but that's

[1:03:05] okay.

[1:03:06] >> Thank you. Um, second, [laughter]

[1:03:11] >> you can keep this in

[1:03:14] >> next.

[1:03:15] Next, he said, "Chris Williamson, go

[1:03:17] [ __ ] yourself."

[1:03:17] >> Yeah, that's true.

[1:03:18] >> Science. [laughter]

[1:03:21] >> First is shut up. Second is suit up.

[1:03:24] What is suit up? Suit up is

[1:03:26] >> you have a role to fulfill each day for

[1:03:29] other people and for yourself and for

[1:03:30] the world. Suit up is get prepared.

[1:03:33] Shower, organize your room. We've heard

[1:03:35] this stuff from Jordan and from other

[1:03:36] people, but get your act together so

[1:03:38] that you can then do the third thing

[1:03:41] effectively, which is show up. Go find a

[1:03:45] role in life and fulfill it. Might not

[1:03:47] be the role you fulfill your entire

[1:03:48] life, but if it's a summer camp

[1:03:50] counselor, if it's a babysitter, if it's

[1:03:52] a a nanny, if it's a firefighter, if

[1:03:54] it's whatever you you are doing at some

[1:03:57] point in your life, you in order to have

[1:03:58] confidence and be a healthy, happy

[1:04:00] person, you need to fulfill roles for

[1:04:02] society, meaning for people in your

[1:04:04] life, not just for you. You have to be

[1:04:06] in service. Now, some people might

[1:04:07] think, well, I want to make as much

[1:04:08] money in the world as possible. That's

[1:04:10] not me, but a lot of people feel that

[1:04:11] way. Great. to do what? Go fulfill that

[1:04:14] role. So get dressed properly. Do those

[1:04:16] things. It sounds so basic, right? So

[1:04:18] shut up is about gratitude. Suit up is

[1:04:20] about prepare and practice. Don't show

[1:04:22] up, you know, don't for me, I delayed

[1:04:23] the publication of the book three times.

[1:04:25] Why? Because I want the book to be

[1:04:27] something I'm truly proud of and that

[1:04:29] people will feel that they were honored

[1:04:32] as smart people who deserve quality

[1:04:35] information. Period. End of story. And I

[1:04:36] was willing to tell the publisher and

[1:04:38] everyone else, look, I'm so so sorry,

[1:04:39] but I'm going back in again and again

[1:04:41] and again. Eat the shame. Because

[1:04:43] ultimately, I had a higher value, which

[1:04:45] was that the book be of good to extreme

[1:04:50] value to anyone that that that read it

[1:04:52] >> or even just looked at a chapter for

[1:04:55] instance. And then that last one of show

[1:04:57] up is actually go do the work. Like chop

[1:04:59] wood, carry water. Like no one gives a

[1:05:01] [ __ ] that you don't want to do it today.

[1:05:02] Just do it. Great confidence comes from

[1:05:04] those. But then he said the fourth thing

[1:05:06] the pitfall is that when we get too much

[1:05:09] into role playing these roles and doing

[1:05:13] these things we we don't often enough or

[1:05:17] see excuse me many people end up down a

[1:05:20] road that they don't really want to be

[1:05:22] on and everyone fears that. So he said

[1:05:25] the solution to this is very simple once

[1:05:26] a day go into your mind and get out of

[1:05:29] stimulus response. You either meditate

[1:05:32] or just breathe. You draw, you listen to

[1:05:34] music, you don't look at your phone, you

[1:05:36] don't think about your role in the

[1:05:38] world, and all you do is you try and

[1:05:40] listen to, and it sounds real squishy,

[1:05:42] but when it's next to shut up, suit up,

[1:05:44] show up, I feel comfortable saying it,

[1:05:46] which is you ask yourself like, what is

[1:05:49] my deeper wish, my heart's desire? What

[1:05:52] do I need to be focusing on now? Maybe I

[1:05:54] have enough career, enough money, enough

[1:05:57] uh whatever, you know, colleague

[1:05:59] respect, etc. Maybe now it's time to uh

[1:06:02] focus more on relationships. Maybe it's

[1:06:05] time to focus less on one's role as a

[1:06:07] mother or father, not completely, but

[1:06:10] focus more on an artistic creative side

[1:06:12] that if you don't satisfy, you're not

[1:06:14] going to feel like you had a good life.

[1:06:15] So personal development, if you look at

[1:06:17] those bins, it's not about shut up, suit

[1:06:20] up, show up, and do this internal

[1:06:22] practice of getting out of stimulus

[1:06:24] response. It's that's just one example.

[1:06:27] You look out across the landscape of

[1:06:29] personal development and almost

[1:06:30] everything slots into one or two, but

[1:06:33] usually just one of those entire books

[1:06:35] are about the first one or just the the

[1:06:37] last one or two of the two of the four.

[1:06:40] And I go, that's very satisfying to me

[1:06:42] because as my colleague said, putting a

[1:06:45] structure on things is is very helpful

[1:06:47] because it helps us navigate without

[1:06:48] feeling like there's all this

[1:06:50] information. Wait, I'm supposed to

[1:06:51] journal and I'm supposed to do therapy

[1:06:52] and maybe psychedelics, maybe not and

[1:06:54] I'm supposed to have social connection

[1:06:56] and and like pretty soon you're like

[1:06:57] when am I supposed to do the morning

[1:06:58] sunlight thing? It's a lot. So the idea

[1:07:00] is that you you understand the framework

[1:07:02] and then when it comes to the trauma

[1:07:04] piece for unlearning, right? Like

[1:07:06] there's a tremendous amount of

[1:07:08] information in the book on how to focus

[1:07:09] and learn better. But then also what

[1:07:11] about unlearning?

[1:07:13] >> All of getting over bad stuff is four

[1:07:16] steps. The process is four steps. The

[1:07:19] first thing you need to acknowledge the

[1:07:20] bad thing. You can't just deny it

[1:07:22] anymore. You can't suppress it. What are

[1:07:24] you suppressing? You need to acknowledge

[1:07:26] this happened. This sucks.

[1:07:29] Two, the second step is you need to feel

[1:07:31] the feelings completely. There is no

[1:07:32] working around this. their entire books

[1:07:34] and workshops written around breathing

[1:07:36] into, psychedelicing into, talking into,

[1:07:40] hugging into, shaking into feeling the

[1:07:44] full suck of the horrible thing that

[1:07:47] happened or things.

[1:07:50] But that's not where it stops. People

[1:07:52] often just end there. The next piece is

[1:07:56] feeling calmer even slightly and more

[1:07:59] peaceful

[1:08:00] around the accurate detailed memory of

[1:08:03] the thing. You're now uncoupling the

[1:08:05] emotion from the thing. You can't just

[1:08:07] live in the feel your feelings. We have

[1:08:09] an entire generation of people and

[1:08:10] collection of people online who are only

[1:08:12] there and they wonder why they're still

[1:08:14] there

[1:08:14] >> at the mercy of their feelings.

[1:08:16] >> They're at the mercy of their feelings,

[1:08:17] but also they're not effective in the

[1:08:19] world. They're not affecting change.

[1:08:21] They think they are, but they're not

[1:08:22] affecting change. This is actually why I

[1:08:24] think they hate one of the many reasons

[1:08:26] why successful people are often hated

[1:08:28] because they're moving along. They're

[1:08:30] like I feel like sometimes online I look

[1:08:32] and I'm like you remind me of those kids

[1:08:34] when I would go home cuz I left I went

[1:08:36] to college then came back and that

[1:08:38] scared the [ __ ] out of me cuz I was like

[1:08:40] oh my god

[1:08:42] >> you guys could write a textbook on how

[1:08:44] to become a like a world class loser

[1:08:46] >> and some of them weren't like drugging

[1:08:48] out or anything. I was just like, "You

[1:08:49] guys are still talking about stuff that

[1:08:50] well, today I talked about stuff that

[1:08:52] happened in high school that was helpful

[1:08:53] for me, but

[1:08:55] you guys are like stuck." It's like

[1:08:57] these people that hang out in the

[1:08:58] parking lot of bars for years and years

[1:09:00] talking about this thing. I mean, it's

[1:09:02] the saddest thing in the world. And men

[1:09:04] do it one way, women do it another way.

[1:09:07] It's this fixation on the things that

[1:09:09] happened that we feel wronged about, and

[1:09:11] we all have them, right? And granted,

[1:09:13] some people were genuinely wrong. That's

[1:09:14] not the point here. It's not whether

[1:09:16] they were wronged or not. It's that

[1:09:17] they're stuck there. And the third piece

[1:09:19] is about the uncoupling. And then the

[1:09:21] fourth piece is what we kind of think of

[1:09:24] as the magic of life where people take

[1:09:27] the hard thing and the experience and

[1:09:29] their journey of moving through it and

[1:09:31] they transmute it into something of

[1:09:33] beauty and goodness for the world.

[1:09:36] >> These are the people that go and talk at

[1:09:39] bereavement workshops. Talk to people

[1:09:42] who've lost a child. Talk to people um

[1:09:45] who have experienced horrible things.

[1:09:47] talk to maybe they even just plant a

[1:09:50] flower and put it in the window sill and

[1:09:52] every morning they appreciate not the

[1:09:55] pain they went through but the pain they

[1:09:57] went through that they no longer

[1:09:58] experience and the beauty that's there

[1:10:00] representing it a small detail right a

[1:10:02] small detail in their life they've

[1:10:04] transmuted the pain but you can't just

[1:10:06] go oh you know what you had this

[1:10:08] horrible thing happen you know plant a

[1:10:09] flower

[1:10:10] >> put it in the window sill and think

[1:10:11] about how beautiful it is you can't take

[1:10:13] somebody who's struggling in number one

[1:10:15] or two Yep

[1:10:16] >> or three and put them there. So for me,

[1:10:19] >> go back through those four for me.

[1:10:20] >> What's that?

[1:10:20] >> Go back through those four.

[1:10:21] >> Acknowledge the thing.

[1:10:22] >> Yep.

[1:10:23] >> Straight on exactly what happened or how

[1:10:25] many you know what is the thing that

[1:10:28] sucks that hurts so much. Two, you have

[1:10:30] to in a safe environment. This is why

[1:10:32] there's an interest in clinical trials

[1:10:34] on MDMA because it's this impathogen

[1:10:36] makes people feel, you know, love and

[1:10:39] safe. But you need that's not the only

[1:10:41] way. I mean there's therapy, there's

[1:10:42] journaling. I talk about this in talk

[1:10:44] about all the different approaches to

[1:10:45] each of these steps. That's the second

[1:10:47] step. You have to feel the feelings

[1:10:49] completely of the horrible thing that

[1:10:51] happened. The third thing is once you've

[1:10:54] done that enough, and we talk about what

[1:10:56] enough is, you need to be able to recall

[1:11:00] the details and specifics of the

[1:11:02] horrible thing that happened with less

[1:11:04] emotional load. The emotional load

[1:11:06] starts to peel back. And it's a hard

[1:11:09] step to get to, but once you get there,

[1:11:11] it's a process. It's not like you go in

[1:11:13] and you go, "Okay, today I'm going to

[1:11:14] remember everything, but it's not going

[1:11:15] to bother me at all." Little by little,

[1:11:17] you start to uncouple the

[1:11:19] >> It's like memory exposure therapy.

[1:11:20] >> Some people do EMDR. That's one way.

[1:11:23] Some people do hypnosis. Some people do

[1:11:24] talk therapy. Pennaker has people

[1:11:26] journal four times for 15 minutes each

[1:11:29] about the horrible thing that happened.

[1:11:30] This takes them through steps two and

[1:11:33] three.

[1:11:34] 15 minutes one day, 15 minutes the next

[1:11:36] day, 15 minutes the next day, 15 minutes

[1:11:37] the next day. No more, no less. And by

[1:11:39] the fourth day, tens of thousands of

[1:11:42] data points now, not just individuals,

[1:11:43] but many many papers, even if uh you

[1:11:46] know, manuscripts, scientific

[1:11:47] manuscripts, but even if you tear up the

[1:11:48] writing afterward, even if you delete

[1:11:50] the file, you find that people move

[1:11:53] through steps two and three to a

[1:11:55] significant degree. And then the fourth

[1:11:59] step is not just letting it hover there

[1:12:02] as this thing that you got through but

[1:12:05] finding some way or ways it can be many

[1:12:07] of transmuting that entire experience

[1:12:10] the thing that happened and the way you

[1:12:12] moved through it into some point of

[1:12:14] beauty or contribution to your own

[1:12:16] well-being and to others well-being.

[1:12:19] could be yeah a dog and the dog

[1:12:22] represents every bit of your ability to

[1:12:24] love unconditionally and their ability

[1:12:26] to love unconditionally that represents

[1:12:28] the unconditional love you didn't get.

[1:12:29] Maybe it's a someone who has suffered a

[1:12:32] horrible trauma is helping people who

[1:12:34] suffered similar traumas. Or maybe it's

[1:12:38] some just symbol, right? I mean, you

[1:12:40] know, in a very Yungian way, it can just

[1:12:41] be a symbol of like maybe you have this

[1:12:43] paper weight and that symbol is the the

[1:12:45] weight of your your certainty that you

[1:12:47] made it through and you just, you know,

[1:12:49] that the human mind can assign symbols

[1:12:51] to to experiences very easily, good or

[1:12:53] bad. So those are the four steps and for

[1:12:57] me in thinking about personal

[1:12:59] development it was like how do I look

[1:13:00] out on the entire landscape of all these

[1:13:02] books and all these podcasts and think

[1:13:04] and and science and think what's the

[1:13:06] best way to move through you acknowledge

[1:13:08] that process. Neuroplasticity is alert

[1:13:10] focus agitation through genuine errors

[1:13:13] to get things right. Reinforce through

[1:13:16] sleep and self- testing. Those are the

[1:13:18] steps. There's not a fifth step or a

[1:13:20] sixth step. There's not jump to step

[1:13:22] three and avoid steps one and two. So

[1:13:25] these days a lot of my role in in my

[1:13:28] public life is to educate about

[1:13:30] processes and when and this all comes

[1:13:32] from my training in neuroscience. You

[1:13:34] don't teach people neurons fire action

[1:13:37] potentials. That's the first thing you

[1:13:38] teach them. Then you tell them how that

[1:13:40] happens. And once they understand how

[1:13:42] that happens and you get the action

[1:13:44] potential, they have embedded in their

[1:13:46] mind an understanding of when a neuron

[1:13:48] fires, a neuron fires, they're not

[1:13:50] thinking about all the steps, but it's

[1:13:52] all there. That's what we call true

[1:13:54] understanding. You have a nuanced um

[1:13:57] multi-level

[1:13:59] understanding of something. And I think

[1:14:01] that all too often in the optimization

[1:14:03] space, we say, "Hey, this red light's

[1:14:05] going to give you better skin. It's

[1:14:06] going to improve your mitochondria." And

[1:14:08] people of course just want those

[1:14:09] effects. But if people are feeling

[1:14:11] overwhelmed, they should think, well,

[1:14:12] what's better, red light or GHK copper?

[1:14:15] I would say, well, what's the best

[1:14:17] source of of red light? It's the sun

[1:14:19] minus UV. When does that happen? When

[1:14:21] the sun is low in the sky, boom, you got

[1:14:23] the best red light therapy that you

[1:14:25] could ever get minus UV for zero cost.

[1:14:28] Congratulations. You want a red light,

[1:14:30] too? Cool. Be my guest. I own one. You

[1:14:32] might want one, too. But just we're

[1:14:34] talking about long wavelength light

[1:14:35] minus UV. End of story. So, it's not

[1:14:38] complicated. And I think the same is

[1:14:40] true in resistance training. Andy Galpin

[1:14:42] talks about this or exercise. They're

[1:14:43] only like five or six different

[1:14:44] adaptations. Better speed, better power,

[1:14:48] better, you know, I mean, you've added a

[1:14:49] seventh of like like, you know,

[1:14:51] forearms, but for the rest of us, there

[1:14:54] only six. And you can get that through

[1:14:57] CrossFit, you can get that through sets

[1:14:58] to failure. You can get more volume with

[1:15:00] near failure. Like once you understand

[1:15:03] something, you're in a position to make

[1:15:05] much better choices around it. And so my

[1:15:07] I'm actually wondering when to retire

[1:15:09] right now. I'm kind of thinking what's

[1:15:10] next and I have some ideas about where

[1:15:12] that's going. But I think we in 2026,

[1:15:16] right heading into 2027, I think we

[1:15:18] pretty well understand the principles of

[1:15:21] great mental health, physical health,

[1:15:23] and performance. There'll be more

[1:15:24] peptides. There'll be more devices. I

[1:15:26] think devices and pharmarmacology are

[1:15:29] really going to change the game. AI is

[1:15:30] going to change the game. But I think

[1:15:32] we're there. The fundamental the physics

[1:15:34] of the system.

[1:15:35] >> Pranayyama breathing or Wimhof

[1:15:37] breathing. H how do you [clears throat]

[1:15:39] want to feel more alert? Inhale

[1:15:41] emphasized breathing passive exhales.

[1:15:43] You want to feel calm. How should you do

[1:15:44] that? Exhale emphasized breathing.

[1:15:47] Passive inhales

[1:15:50] [gasps and sighs]

[1:15:51] longer exhale relative to inhale more

[1:15:53] calm. Why? We know all the mechanisms.

[1:15:55] So the naming this and this probably

[1:15:58] scares some of my you know health

[1:16:00] colleagues. Hopefully not because no

[1:16:03] longer can people name things after

[1:16:04] themselves or give something a name that

[1:16:06] cloaks what you're trying to achieve.

[1:16:09] The reason I went yoga nidra non-sleep

[1:16:11] deep rest

[1:16:12] >> and I I have great respect for the yoga

[1:16:15] culture that developed this thousands of

[1:16:16] years ago is non-sleep deep rest is the

[1:16:19] goal. What is involved? Exhale emphasize

[1:16:21] breathing to slow the heart rate down.

[1:16:23] Shifting the mind from thinking, doing

[1:16:25] and and planning to pure sensation.

[1:16:28] Great. How do you do that? present

[1:16:30] tethered awareness, long exhales, eyes

[1:16:33] closed. That gets you into a pseudo

[1:16:35] sleep that recovers some of your lost

[1:16:37] sleep, makes you better at sleeping at

[1:16:39] night, lowers cortisol, puts the brain

[1:16:42] into micro states of sleep,

[1:16:44] >> enhances learning. That's non-sleep deep

[1:16:47] rest in a nutshell. Now, why the book

[1:16:49] has to be so long given I can just kind

[1:16:51] of cut it down to a nutshell, that's a

[1:16:53] different story. But principles are what

[1:16:56] allow a field to say, you know what, we

[1:16:57] got it.

[1:16:58] >> Yep. Doesn't mean the stuff isn't

[1:17:00] important. Means we got it. We're moving

[1:17:01] on. We understand the action potential.

[1:17:04] We understand plasticity. We understand

[1:17:07] getting over trauma. The tools still

[1:17:09] need work, but we understand how to get

[1:17:12] to sleep. We understand how to be

[1:17:13] focused. We And so people, I think, I'm

[1:17:16] hoping will appreciate that we are here

[1:17:18] now. I didn't podcast and do all this

[1:17:20] for the last six, seven years so that I

[1:17:22] could be in the exact same place and

[1:17:24] regurgitate the same things. I'm like,

[1:17:26] here you go. This is my thesis. This is

[1:17:29] my thesis. This is my graduate thesis.

[1:17:30] My graduate thesis, like, you know, some

[1:17:33] people say there's a little bit of like

[1:17:34] pigeon chesting, but I didn't publish

[1:17:36] like two papers in some, you know, red

[1:17:39] red ribbon journal. We published close

[1:17:41] to eight first author papers in awesome

[1:17:43] journals, some in apex journals. I could

[1:17:46] have graduated way earlier. I did it

[1:17:47] because I wanted to close a story in a

[1:17:51] field. We didn't get everything, but I

[1:17:53] wanted to get to the point where that

[1:17:54] field didn't make sense to work on

[1:17:56] anymore.

[1:17:56] >> Mhm. Mhm.

[1:17:57] >> It was like, "We're done. We did it."

[1:17:59] Like, like, "What are we doing?" Like,

[1:18:00] "I don't want to stay in high school. I

[1:18:01] want to You graduate. So, it's now time.

[1:18:04] This is my thesis. I'm done. I think

[1:18:07] it's I believe it's of real value. I'm

[1:18:09] on to the next thing." And if people

[1:18:11] want to quibble about the details, I'm

[1:18:12] all ears. I'm happy to talk about it.

[1:18:14] Um, or even the big things, but it's not

[1:18:17] like I'm done. It's not important. It's

[1:18:18] like, "We got it. Let's move to the next

[1:18:20] level." And I want you to do this, too.

[1:18:22] I talked to Lex the other day on the

[1:18:23] phone. You know, everyone's like,

[1:18:24] "Where's Lex? Haven't heard." Lex is

[1:18:27] building up the next big move. I can't

[1:18:29] talk about it, but it's awesome. And I'm

[1:18:31] like, he's so brave. And I'm like, yes,

[1:18:34] you're always on the next thing, you

[1:18:37] know? Rick's always on the next thing,

[1:18:39] you know? And it's so cool. Like, it's

[1:18:40] like, we got to keep going. We can't

[1:18:43] stay back there.

[1:18:45] >> Mhm.

[1:18:45] >> Can't stay back there. That's what

[1:18:46] happened in the 1960s and 70s. People

[1:18:49] got went down the rabbit holes. They

[1:18:50] took too many psychedelics thinking

[1:18:52] psychedelics were the answer and a lot

[1:18:54] of them lost their minds or they did too

[1:18:57] much somatic therapy and they forgot

[1:19:00] that the mind that actually you don't

[1:19:01] store emotions in the body. I'm sorry

[1:19:03] folks, you store them in your brain and

[1:19:05] the body represents them. Turns out

[1:19:07] we've now moved on. Body and brain are

[1:19:09] important. So I think it's time we move

[1:19:12] to the next step. Tell me if this sounds

[1:19:14] familiar. You train regularly. You eat

[1:19:16] reasonably well. You feel fine, but

[1:19:18] you're just kind of going off vibes.

[1:19:20] Most people have absolutely no idea

[1:19:22] what's going on inside their body. And

[1:19:24] that is why I partnered with Function.

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[1:20:08] That's functionalth.com/modernwisdism.

[1:20:12] Is there a good test for microplastics?

[1:20:14] And what is the best detox protocol that

[1:20:16] you're aware of at the moment for

[1:20:17] microplastics?

[1:20:19] >> Detox as opposed to limiting the ones

[1:20:21] coming in. Um cuz we know where they

[1:20:23] are, right? They're pretty much

[1:20:24] everywhere. Um uh [clears throat] but

[1:20:26] glass better than plastic and so on. Um

[1:20:29] >> the data on sweating are decent, right?

[1:20:33] They're not going to purge them

[1:20:34] completely, but they're but they're

[1:20:36] pretty decent.

[1:20:37] >> Um so sauna sauna living in Texas

[1:20:40] >> running outside. I mean, heat is heat,

[1:20:42] right? So, you know, I was kind of

[1:20:44] joking this morning on a press call. You

[1:20:46] know, if you're standing outside in

[1:20:47] Texas in the middle of the day, like

[1:20:49] you're getting some deliberate heat

[1:20:50] exposure or non-deliberate heat

[1:20:51] exposure. It's the same heat as heat.

[1:20:54] >> Um,

[1:20:55] >> so that definitely helps. You know,

[1:20:56] there's this idea that sulforophane,

[1:20:58] which is in cruciferous vegetables,

[1:21:00] might be able to bind some of it and you

[1:21:01] can purge some of it.

[1:21:02] >> That uh arterasol, is that what it's

[1:21:05] called?

[1:21:05] >> I think it's sulforophane. Um, you can

[1:21:07] take concentrated sulforophane. You

[1:21:09] know, Rhonda broccoli. Yeah, Rhonda's

[1:21:11] very bullish on this. I um I don't take

[1:21:13] sulforophane. Um I do try and sauna

[1:21:16] >> because it has other benefits a few

[1:21:18] times a week. Um and I just think more

[1:21:20] and more companies that can their

[1:21:21] beverages are going to start, you know,

[1:21:23] looking a lot of canned beverages do and

[1:21:25] a lot of canned beverages don't.

[1:21:27] >> Rhonda put me in touch with a company

[1:21:29] for Newtonic who uh have a different uh

[1:21:32] wrapper on the inside cuz all of these

[1:21:33] cans, it's not tin, it's a plastic

[1:21:35] liner.

[1:21:35] >> Yeah. But there's a a an organic

[1:21:38] biodegradable

[1:21:39] uh liner that you can get. So we're

[1:21:41] looking into that. It's going to take

[1:21:42] forever.

[1:21:43] >> Yeah. I mean, the stuff is everywhere.

[1:21:45] There's um the particulate from tires.

[1:21:48] There's the clothing thing in Europe.

[1:21:50] Actually,

[1:21:50] >> dryer, whether your dryer is venting

[1:21:52] inside,

[1:21:52] >> you can buy a better trap for some of

[1:21:54] the microfers. I'll be honest, I don't I

[1:21:56] don't do those things. Um I'm conscious

[1:21:59] of trying to not put heated food in

[1:22:01] plastic whenever I order.

[1:22:03] >> Well, this is limiting input though,

[1:22:04] right? Which

[1:22:05] >> that's limiting input to the extent that

[1:22:07] it's getting things out that we don't

[1:22:08] know. I mean, I think also like

[1:22:10] anything, some people are going to be

[1:22:12] more susceptible to this. I mean, if

[1:22:13] people are doing a bunch of other things

[1:22:14] to disrupt their endocrine environment,

[1:22:17] >> right? They're not sleeping well. They,

[1:22:19] you know, they're not doing all the

[1:22:20] right things. Um, or they're doing some

[1:22:22] things badly wrong, especially if you're

[1:22:24] getting a lot of environmental exposure

[1:22:26] to toxins because you, you know, a lot

[1:22:28] of people work jobs where they work with

[1:22:29] paints and solvents. You know,

[1:22:31] laboratories, it's kind of wild. You

[1:22:33] know, laboratories, you find all sorts

[1:22:34] of things that can what we call

[1:22:35] intercolate into DNA. That's how you you

[1:22:38] run gels and things of DNA. And I mean

[1:22:41] without getting into the details of

[1:22:42] looking at proteins and different types

[1:22:43] of blotss or RNA or DNA in order to

[1:22:47] break up proteins or break up DNA in

[1:22:49] order to, you know, basically run them

[1:22:51] out on these gels,

[1:22:52] >> you have to put chemicals in them that

[1:22:54] break the bonds, right? That's not good,

[1:22:56] right? You don't want that happening to

[1:22:57] you. It's good for the experiment. It's

[1:22:58] not good for

[1:22:59] >> people are dermally disrupting their own

[1:23:00] DNA. people who work in laboratories are

[1:23:03] exposed to, you know, paraphride

[1:23:05] constantly and um if you if you have a

[1:23:08] neuroscience lab that where you're

[1:23:09] perusing brains, you're fixing brains to

[1:23:11] cut them up. You're working with

[1:23:11] paraphraldahhide and other fixatives all

[1:23:13] the time. You're working with um things

[1:23:15] that are mutagens uh sometimes

[1:23:18] radioactivity. I mean viruses I mean my

[1:23:20] lab for years I mean I'm not running a

[1:23:22] lab anymore. last I think last paper

[1:23:24] came out in 2023 24 um now just teaching

[1:23:27] but the the the lab had adno viruses

[1:23:31] sinbis viruses modified rabies viruses I

[1:23:33] mean we some stuff you don't want

[1:23:34] >> we worked with we had yeah you we did we

[1:23:36] had sedatives that are you know

[1:23:38] federally controlled you had to keep

[1:23:39] them in a locker account for every

[1:23:41] microlerit I mean laboratories are full

[1:23:43] of dangerous things unless it's a

[1:23:45] computational laboratory in which case

[1:23:47] we call those carpet labs where they

[1:23:48] have carpet and computers

[1:23:51] >> when that's real science is just

[1:23:53] different science.

[1:23:54] >> When it comes to the microplastics

[1:23:55] thing, I learned some interesting

[1:23:57] insights around the fact that the u like

[1:24:00] micron size of microplastics and the

[1:24:02] size of your sweat glands can get some

[1:24:05] out but not all because microplastics

[1:24:07] range in size. This is a conversation

[1:24:09] that Ben Greenfield was bringing up.

[1:24:10] Another interesting one we're talking on

[1:24:12] 911. Um a friend told me a story about

[1:24:16] this particular firefighter who had gone

[1:24:18] into the towers and had been out of the

[1:24:19] towers and that was exposed to all of

[1:24:22] you know the most particulates probably

[1:24:23] in history apart from volcanic eruptions

[1:24:26] and um he'd developed like a

[1:24:28] parkinsonian tremor and he did nascin

[1:24:31] flush with charcoal uh and had a towel

[1:24:34] wrapped around him when you do that. So

[1:24:36] you get your heart rate up doing

[1:24:38] exercise, you get into the sauna, you

[1:24:39] take the nascin, then you take the

[1:24:40] charcoal, nascin to flush everything

[1:24:42] out, and then charcoal to bind it so it

[1:24:43] doesn't get reabsorbed again. And

[1:24:45] apparently the towel that this guy had

[1:24:47] wrapped around him was like verdigree.

[1:24:50] It was at all colors of blue and pink

[1:24:52] and green.

[1:24:53] >> Those firefighters,

[1:24:55] I mean, they absorbed so much mental

[1:24:57] [clears throat] and physical um damage

[1:24:59] in those days. I mean one thing we

[1:25:02] should say before I want to talk about

[1:25:04] 911 and that particular thing. Um I I do

[1:25:07] but before we do that I just want to

[1:25:08] mention one thing I think is important

[1:25:10] because the message got out based on one

[1:25:13] publication that we have a credit card's

[1:25:15] worth of plastic in us

[1:25:17] >> already been there.

[1:25:18] >> Okay. So turns out there was a second

[1:25:20] publication that went to the same data

[1:25:22] and basically found that the the tool

[1:25:24] they used in that first study to measure

[1:25:26] the number of particles was not a very

[1:25:28] good tool. Um, and it turns out we have

[1:25:31] far less than that in us.

[1:25:33] >> You saw this stuff about the gloves,

[1:25:34] right?

[1:25:35] >> Uh, not about the gloves, but that but

[1:25:37] but what's interesting about this study

[1:25:38] is I think that some people say you have

[1:25:40] a marbles sized uh amount of plastic in

[1:25:43] your brain at this moment. maybe

[1:25:44] distributed maybe but the I looked at

[1:25:47] both the the data analyzed two different

[1:25:49] ways in those papers and unfortunately

[1:25:51] the more um the more catchy thing you

[1:25:54] have a credit card and was worth of

[1:25:56] plastic in you or your brain that's you

[1:25:58] know it kind of did the telephone game

[1:25:59] of the internet

[1:26:00] >> the second paper didn't um didn't get as

[1:26:03] much air time

[1:26:04] >> yep

[1:26:04] >> and so

[1:26:05] >> the retraction versus the accusation

[1:26:06] >> right and it was a separate group it

[1:26:08] wasn't a total retraction but having

[1:26:10] spent a lot of years in my lab where you

[1:26:12] try and count cells and you're trying to

[1:26:14] decide on a computer screen what's a

[1:26:15] cell seems trivial to you mean that's a

[1:26:17] cell that's a cell sometimes it's very

[1:26:18] easy sometimes you see two clumps like

[1:26:20] this is that one cell or two cells so

[1:26:21] where you set your threshold for what

[1:26:23] you define as a cell is very important

[1:26:25] and in this study

[1:26:26] >> so this was sorry for interrupting

[1:26:28] >> no no no

[1:26:30] >> this was what I saw so u basically when

[1:26:33] people were using nitral and latex

[1:26:35] gloves to do the microplastic thing the

[1:26:37] way that nitrial gloves actually bend is

[1:26:39] because tiny fragments of plastic peel

[1:26:42] off basically.

[1:26:44] >> Well, this just came out this last year.

[1:26:46] >> People measuring microplastics wore

[1:26:49] gloves that got plastic on the plastic

[1:26:51] detector.

[1:26:52] >> That's what happened. So, this is like

[1:26:55] >> yeah,

[1:26:55] >> one of the biggest

[1:26:57] >> look I mean if you talk to

[1:26:58] >> there it is a wild microlastics goose

[1:27:01] chase based on the glove. Like

[1:27:03] >> so we might be overestimating the amount

[1:27:05] of these things which would be great.

[1:27:06] Let's you know if we to be more worried

[1:27:08] and actually be safer is better than to

[1:27:09] be less worried and actually in danger,

[1:27:11] right? Think about this though. If it's

[1:27:13] the case that microplastics are less

[1:27:15] prevalent by a factor of a lot, some of

[1:27:17] the studies I've seen around this, it's

[1:27:18] like uh 100 less 100 times less or maybe

[1:27:21] even a thousand times less than we've

[1:27:22] got. If that's the case, what that

[1:27:24] suggests is the X factor, which is

[1:27:26] disrupting endocrine, impacting

[1:27:28] testosterone, stuff like that, is even

[1:27:30] greater because people have been able to

[1:27:32] lay at the feet of microplastics. Like

[1:27:34] it's kind of the microplastics of the

[1:27:36] gaps of what's going on with endocrine,

[1:27:38] why is sperm count going down, etc.,

[1:27:40] etc. If we say oh actually we've been

[1:27:42] overmeasuring that the X factor begins

[1:27:46] to need to fill more of the hole.

[1:27:49] >> Yeah we don't know how to match you know

[1:27:51] number of particles to biological

[1:27:52] relevance. I mean in a you know one

[1:27:54] parallel example would be for many years

[1:27:56] you know there were new antibodies

[1:27:58] coming on becoming available for the

[1:28:01] study of the brain and you could label

[1:28:03] up like where is the richest

[1:28:04] concentration of serotonergic neurons in

[1:28:06] the brain and a group identified this

[1:28:09] massive serotonin input to the brain

[1:28:10] circadian clock massive I mean it

[1:28:13] accounts for you know basically half of

[1:28:15] the input to the clock you know what

[1:28:17] happens if you disrupt that input to the

[1:28:18] clock nothing functionally it means

[1:28:21] nothing does that mean it's doing

[1:28:22] nothing. Excuse me. Functionally, it

[1:28:24] means far less than the anatomy would

[1:28:26] suggest.

[1:28:27] >> In the brain, big strong synapses mean a

[1:28:30] lot more than number of synapses. Number

[1:28:32] matters, but big and strong matters way

[1:28:34] more. And so, we don't really know how

[1:28:36] to correlate x number of particles with

[1:28:38] this much dysfunction. Also,

[1:28:41] >> this is not a study that I um think

[1:28:43] about very often, but my colleague Mike

[1:28:44] Eisenberg, who you've had on the

[1:28:46] podcast, right? Um I mean it does seem

[1:28:48] that sperm counts are going down

[1:28:51] generation to generation. Um but it see

[1:28:53] they have data that do you know about

[1:28:55] this that penis size is going up right

[1:28:57] and no no pun intended. Um but then you

[1:29:00] start asking you know how is this

[1:29:01] measured and it's self it's either

[1:29:02] self-report and then you get into these

[1:29:04] details that I really don't want to

[1:29:06] discuss. It's too early in the day. Um

[1:29:08] you know like are they measuring from

[1:29:10] like the top or the bottom? Like are

[1:29:11] they are they uh is it flaccid or is it

[1:29:14] erect? Like all these different things.

[1:29:16] And you'll talk to Mike and you'll say,

[1:29:17] you know, they try and standardize these

[1:29:18] studies, but it's one of these things

[1:29:20] where the headline is so catchy,

[1:29:23] >> right? One or the other headline. But

[1:29:25] then you get to, no pun intended, but

[1:29:26] then you get to you get to the the

[1:29:28] nuance of how these studies are done.

[1:29:30] And the answer almost always is, well,

[1:29:34] let's just stick to microplastics. We

[1:29:35] need more data. I think that the other

[1:29:37] >> we need more penises. [laughter]

[1:29:39] >> Um, some people in the on the planet

[1:29:40] would argue we need fewer. Um, but

[1:29:42] that's a different that's a different

[1:29:43] podcast. But um

[1:29:46] 9/11 um I'd been on the east coast. So

[1:29:50] I'm 51 years old. So um I remember this

[1:29:53] very clearly. I'd been on the east coast

[1:29:55] at a an amazing place on the north shore

[1:29:57] of Long Island called Cold Spring Harbor

[1:29:59] Laboratories. This is sort of summer

[1:30:00] camp for scientists where they go to

[1:30:01] learn molecular biology. You take

[1:30:03] courses and it actually operates all

[1:30:05] year long as one of the premier

[1:30:06] laboratories in the world. Are you

[1:30:07] telling me there's something on my face?

[1:30:09] >> No, no, no. I'm just I'm just grinning

[1:30:10] about this [ __ ] summer camp for the

[1:30:11] nerds. It's all right.

[1:30:12] >> Oh, it was a great time. I was a student

[1:30:14] in there at Cold Spring Harbor. I was a

[1:30:16] um a TA. I was a a educator and I was a

[1:30:19] course director for for many years. Um

[1:30:22] and then I passed the course off on to

[1:30:24] you know people who are better equipped

[1:30:25] to do that at that time. Um but we had

[1:30:28] gone to this course and then flown back

[1:30:31] right a number of us had flown back and

[1:30:32] some people were still in the process of

[1:30:33] going back. So I I remember that day

[1:30:35] very well. I also remember two years

[1:30:38] later because the course was every other

[1:30:40] year going back to this course on in

[1:30:42] Long Island and there's this day off

[1:30:44] where half of the students would just

[1:30:45] recover from their hangovers. There was

[1:30:47] a lot of drinking back then. Not so much

[1:30:49] of these courses anymore, but you and

[1:30:52] took the Long Island Railroad into the

[1:30:54] city and went to the 911 site. So it was

[1:30:58] a memorial/site because it was still

[1:31:01] they were still excavating the site.

[1:31:03] >> Was this?

[1:31:04] >> What day?

[1:31:04] >> Date. Oh, this would have been a summer

[1:31:07] of Okay, so two years after 911, so it'

[1:31:09] be 2003.

[1:31:10] >> And they still hadn't finished.

[1:31:12] >> Oh, no. No. I mean, this was a giant I

[1:31:14] mean, I think it's hard for people to

[1:31:16] conceive. Like, you see the towers in

[1:31:18] the photos and they're so huge, but the

[1:31:20] footprint of these towers was just

[1:31:22] enormous, you know, multiple city blocks

[1:31:25] long in it, you know, and there was just

[1:31:27] all there was was like a, you know, a

[1:31:30] wooden gate. You could walk around the

[1:31:33] site. There were pictures everywhere

[1:31:35] obviously and a lot of inscribings and

[1:31:37] some photos and things of that sort. And

[1:31:39] there were people working the site, you

[1:31:40] know, construction workers working. Many

[1:31:42] of them, no masks, you know, and then

[1:31:44] you got all these tourists, you know, we

[1:31:46] were essentially tourists. Um,

[1:31:49] >> reading the the stuff on the wall,

[1:31:51] walking around, no doubt, everyone was

[1:31:54] inhaling tons of whatever was in in

[1:31:56] their jet fuel, particulate, etc. But

[1:31:59] the people that got there first, I mean,

[1:32:01] I can't even imagine what the

[1:32:03] firefighters and others were exposed to.

[1:32:05] I did hear an interesting story that one

[1:32:08] of the companies that was housed in

[1:32:10] those buildings was led by somebody who

[1:32:13] had some former military training, do

[1:32:15] you know about this? who had been there

[1:32:17] for the first bomb bombing of the of the

[1:32:20] World Trade Center

[1:32:21] >> and had run drills for his entire

[1:32:24] company, insisted on drills going into

[1:32:26] it and all but I think 11 of the of the

[1:32:30] people in for that company got out. So

[1:32:32] they were they would run these drills

[1:32:34] about how to you know single or double

[1:32:36] file out out of the stairways. I don't

[1:32:38] know the partic the particulars of this.

[1:32:40] Um but it turns out there were people

[1:32:42] who were very concerned about this going

[1:32:44] in for a number of years.

[1:32:46] and that increased survival. Now you

[1:32:47] don't I don't know where they were, you

[1:32:49] know, which which level etc. But I mean

[1:32:52] that was a that was a huge game changer

[1:32:55] and yes there were videos online at that

[1:32:57] time um so different because there

[1:33:00] wasn't social media of people some

[1:33:03] places in the world you know quote

[1:33:04] unquote celebrating but I would say the

[1:33:06] vast majority of media that you saw the

[1:33:08] vast majority of what was online was

[1:33:10] just people either in shock or um in in

[1:33:14] anger and just and surprised a lot of

[1:33:17] people in the United States at that time

[1:33:18] didn't know where Afghanistan was. They

[1:33:22] didn't they didn't know what Afghanistan

[1:33:24] was. They didn't know where Pakistan

[1:33:26] was. They didn't understand that. I

[1:33:28] mean, they knew these places in the

[1:33:29] world exist. They probably heard the

[1:33:30] names before, but there wasn't a lot of

[1:33:32] awareness of that side of the world. It

[1:33:34] was like, oh yeah, like a bombing in

[1:33:35] Yemen. People would hear these things,

[1:33:37] >> but that was the that and the Challenger

[1:33:39] explosion were um in my lifetime were

[1:33:42] the two where you just went,

[1:33:44] oh [ __ ] like this this is a a line in

[1:33:48] the sand. like things are are very very

[1:33:50] different now.

[1:33:51] >> You mentioned nicotine earlier on. I'm

[1:33:54] seeing pouches everywhere. What's your

[1:33:55] opinion on nicotine and pouches?

[1:33:57] >> Same. Look, I consume caffeine every

[1:33:59] day. I love caffeine. Nicotine is sort

[1:34:01] of similar. Although caffeine is safer,

[1:34:04] obviously it can even improve health.

[1:34:06] Nicotine will definitely make you feel

[1:34:10] alert and calm unlike other stimulants

[1:34:12] which is a very unique state that's

[1:34:14] great for learning, right? Sets you up

[1:34:16] for learning. doesn't let you learn, but

[1:34:17] it so excuse me, it doesn't make you

[1:34:18] learn, but it lets you learn.

[1:34:22] Raises blood pressure. Highly addictive.

[1:34:24] And [clears throat] and here's the thing

[1:34:26] people don't realize. If you take 3 to

[1:34:29] six milligram pouches multiple times per

[1:34:31] day, it's not going to have a cognitive

[1:34:33] enhancing effect. It's just rescuing the

[1:34:35] deficit from nicotine withdrawal.

[1:34:38] >> Like, if you don't drink caffeine for

[1:34:41] two days, you're not going to feel good.

[1:34:43] You drink caffeine, you'll feel good.

[1:34:44] It's bringing you back to baseline.

[1:34:46] Okay. So, if you want nicotine to be a

[1:34:49] performance aid, you use it

[1:34:50] occasionally, meaning you know, 3 to six

[1:34:53] milligrams once or twice total,

[1:34:58] twice per week maximum. But how many

[1:35:00] people do you know that are

[1:35:01] >> not develop a dependency

[1:35:03] >> or just not do it very often and then it

[1:35:05] does something? I mean, this is how I

[1:35:06] feel about a lot of energy drinks. I

[1:35:07] love them, but I'll take them when I

[1:35:09] really want to dial in, really want to

[1:35:11] like I I slept last night, but not quite

[1:35:12] as much as I would have liked. time

[1:35:14] shifted and and so on. Um so this

[1:35:16] morning I drank one of yours and one of

[1:35:18] uh Derek's. Um that's a lot.

[1:35:21] >> The old twin turbo. Yeah. Very good.

[1:35:22] >> The twin turbo and and that's a lot but

[1:35:25] you know I thought we had a pretty good

[1:35:26] workout.

[1:35:26] >> Yeah. You performed well. Well the

[1:35:29] previous uh mode of delivery was smoking

[1:35:31] and then we moved on to vaping pretty

[1:35:33] quickly and vaping became massive.

[1:35:34] >> So talk about the history of this.

[1:35:35] Humans have found a way to get their

[1:35:38] nicotine. Smoking causes cancer. Okay.

[1:35:41] >> Not good. Dipping, snuffing,

[1:35:44] not good. Cancers. Okay. Oral nicotine.

[1:35:47] Oh, vaping. It turns out it's not good

[1:35:49] for us. Really not good. The chemicals

[1:35:51] associated with it probably a bit safer

[1:35:53] than smoking, but this is really wild.

[1:35:56] The behavioral data say because you can

[1:35:58] do it anywhere pretty much. People are

[1:36:01] doing far more of it. They're taking in

[1:36:03] far more nicotine and they're coming now

[1:36:04] having issues, lung issues and issues

[1:36:06] related to nicotine. smoking was less

[1:36:08] healthy and maybe more dangerous per

[1:36:10] puff, but because the number of puffs

[1:36:12] that you're consuming from vaping,

[1:36:14] because you can do it in more places and

[1:36:15] it's more tasty and there's less fatigue

[1:36:17] from it, means that maybe the healthier

[1:36:21] delivery mechanism of vaping versus

[1:36:22] smoking is more than offset to the point

[1:36:24] where it's more dangerous.

[1:36:25] >> Right. Wow.

[1:36:26] >> In the same way that, you know, cannabis

[1:36:28] you don't say is good or bad. Yes, it

[1:36:30] nukes REM sleep, but that's very, very

[1:36:32] bad. um it can cause psychosis and

[1:36:35] certain males have a predisposition to

[1:36:37] psychosis. But you'd say um smoking

[1:36:40] cannabis people are able to put

[1:36:42] themselves into a plane of high that is

[1:36:46] not freaking them out. They can take one

[1:36:48] to like bong you know when I was in

[1:36:51] college everyone just like did bong reps

[1:36:53] like you know and then but you knew if

[1:36:55] you could do half a one or one or you

[1:36:57] you wouldn't go like four and then wait

[1:36:59] and see what happens.

[1:37:01] Um, some people did that. That didn't

[1:37:02] work out so well. But with an edible,

[1:37:04] the problem is people can ingest, you

[1:37:05] know, 100 150 milligrams of THC like

[1:37:08] that and then they're freaking out. And

[1:37:10] some cases it can trigger a psychotic

[1:37:11] episode that lasts a long time or

[1:37:13] doesn't reverse. And so it's the ease of

[1:37:15] ingestion. So that's the vaping thing.

[1:37:17] The the oral nicotines,

[1:37:20] they're here to stay. Humans have since

[1:37:22] the discovery of nicotine have found a

[1:37:24] way to get their nicotine. Same with

[1:37:26] caffeine. They've just found a way to

[1:37:27] they're not going to quit. But a lot of

[1:37:29] young people using nicotine, they should

[1:37:31] just be aware of how addictive it is and

[1:37:34] the fact it raises blood pressure.

[1:37:35] >> And I think that, you know, usually you

[1:37:37] can scare guys out of it a little bit by

[1:37:39] just saying, "Oh, it's vasa

[1:37:40] constriction." And, you know, that can

[1:37:41] have some sexual side effects. But

[1:37:43] nowadays, people are using

[1:37:44] pharmarmacology to combat

[1:37:45] pharmarmacology, you know, and thanks to

[1:37:47] Mike Eisenberg and other people, you

[1:37:49] know, like I've said, you know, the the

[1:37:50] toad lowd doal for um for prostate

[1:37:53] health, but then people go, well, if you

[1:37:55] take a little bit more, then it then

[1:37:56] it's a, you know, it's like a sex drug

[1:37:58] and like that kind of thing. It's, you

[1:37:59] know, anyway that it was developed as a

[1:38:01] prostate drug, but it's a vasod

[1:38:03] diilator. Does it does that combat the

[1:38:05] vasoc constriction of nicotine? Yeah, in

[1:38:08] theory. Uh but you now you're you're

[1:38:10] doing like sort of a pushpull

[1:38:13] bad language. You're now doing a

[1:38:15] pushpull between you know one one set of

[1:38:18] effects and another set of effects. And

[1:38:20] you know I would say this is just by

[1:38:22] observation um you know people in their

[1:38:26] teens 20s 30s even early 40s you really

[1:38:29] want to get away with it using as little

[1:38:31] pharmarmacology as necessary. This is

[1:38:33] why for you know during my manopause

[1:38:35] monk mode era I did a thousand what

[1:38:37] manopause monk I went monk mode which is

[1:38:40] >> manopause. You're too young for

[1:38:41] manopause.

[1:38:42] >> Manop manopause is end of 20s. Listen uh

[1:38:46] I got I told

[1:38:46] >> you we got to return to that. Manopause

[1:38:48] is

[1:38:48] >> manop manopause.

[1:38:50] >> Your androgens dropped at the end of

[1:38:52] your 20s.

[1:38:53] >> It's a colloquial bro science term that

[1:38:55] I use to describe when guys stop

[1:38:57] behaving the way that they did in their

[1:38:59] adult infanties. so many thoughts about

[1:39:01] that hat and none of them good. Please

[1:39:02] take that off.

[1:39:04] >> Um, so, [laughter]

[1:39:07] uh, a lot of the time, like when I when

[1:39:08] I was doing my period of personal

[1:39:10] development, becoming a a proper human,

[1:39:12] I did 1,000 days without alcohol and 500

[1:39:14] days without caffeine because I wanted

[1:39:16] to prove to myself I don't need to use

[1:39:18] any of these things. I don't need to

[1:39:19] buttress my life with this. I wanted to

[1:39:21] have that in the back of my mind that if

[1:39:23] there was ever a period because I I knew

[1:39:24] for the rest of my life that I was going

[1:39:26] to be like around parties, I was going

[1:39:27] to be around like caffeine. That's like

[1:39:29] my thing, right? And now I have a

[1:39:30] company that does it. Something that's

[1:39:32] kind of interesting. So, we've been

[1:39:33] doing these, which are these pouches.

[1:39:35] And those I think by the end of next

[1:39:37] year, we could do more volume in

[1:39:39] pouches, more revenue in pouches than in

[1:39:40] cans because of how many people want to

[1:39:44] dial back their nicotine.

[1:39:46] >> So many people feel like I'm not in

[1:39:48] control of my nicotine usage and the

[1:39:50] delivery mechanism has been locked in

[1:39:52] >> and and these are and it's easy to take

[1:39:54] and and we'll talk about the canister.

[1:39:56] By the way, if you write a 600page book,

[1:39:59] uh, what happens is you stare at things

[1:40:01] up close, your eyeball lengthens, and

[1:40:02] you become myopic near.

[1:40:04] >> You've worsened your eyesight because

[1:40:05] you wrote the book. You literally

[1:40:07] literally damaged your own.

[1:40:08] >> But at the end of this year, right after

[1:40:10] this book promotion tour is done, I'm

[1:40:12] going to spend a lot of time staring at

[1:40:15] horizons and hiking in the mountains and

[1:40:17] um and I might even go hunting this

[1:40:19] year. So yeah, that's why I'm wearing

[1:40:20] these. I mean, look at this. Is crazy.

[1:40:21] This prescription.

[1:40:22] >> You tried to You made me put them on.

[1:40:23] No, you're blind. They're like bottle

[1:40:24] glasses.

[1:40:25] >> Cool. Um, so yeah, when you stare at

[1:40:28] things too close, you become

[1:40:29] nearsighted. So, kids, adults,

[1:40:32] >> be careful.

[1:40:33] >> Get some long view vision each day. My

[1:40:35] vision at a distance is great, but up up

[1:40:36] close is lousy. So, the other thing

[1:40:38] about this that um and these canisters

[1:40:40] is it's interesting, you know, that um

[1:40:43] I'm not trying to diverge topics here,

[1:40:45] but you know, like we'll get to

[1:40:46] peptides, I'm sure, but you know, the

[1:40:48] pens that the GLPs use, the pen with

[1:40:50] needle, you know, has basically gotten

[1:40:52] people over their needle phobia. It

[1:40:53] turns out it was the plunger people were

[1:40:55] afraid of. I don't like needles. Do I

[1:40:56] have to inject myself? Turns out if you

[1:40:57] put the needle at the end of something,

[1:40:58] it looks like a pen. Everyone's pinning

[1:41:00] themselves. Men, women, people are just

[1:41:02] pinning themselves. Um, these canisters

[1:41:05] are interesting because they have like a

[1:41:07] tactile feel. It's a little bit like

[1:41:09] like chips at the casino. But when I was

[1:41:11] a kid, um, there was a a jerky.

[1:41:16] >> Do you remember this? There was a beef

[1:41:18] jerky that came in a canister that

[1:41:19] looked like tobacco. and kids. Oh, this

[1:41:22] stuff was was horrible. You would take a

[1:41:24] pinch of beef jerky and you'd put it in

[1:41:26] your lip. We were like 9 years old, 10

[1:41:28] years old. And then you'd eat the beef

[1:41:30] jerky eventually.

[1:41:31] >> He was cosplaying as your dad

[1:41:32] >> kids. Uh my dad didn't chew. He did

[1:41:34] occasionally smoke a cigar pipe. My

[1:41:35] grandfather smoked a pipe. The people

[1:41:37] that did.

[1:41:37] >> Yeah. So it was like you would So we

[1:41:40] were like little kids. We were little

[1:41:42] kids walking around lipping beef jerk

[1:41:44] beef not licking lip beef jerky. And so

[1:41:48] and it was they clearly figured out that

[1:41:51] like candy cigarettes and you know and

[1:41:53] and so there is something about the p

[1:41:55] the candy. There it is. Jerky stuff. No.

[1:41:57] No. It's called jerky stuff. That looks

[1:41:59] so gross. Oh my god.

[1:42:01] >> It looks like uh the fluffer that you

[1:42:03] find in your pocket.

[1:42:04] >> It's called jerky stuff. Look at this.

[1:42:07] Ready? There you go. Jerky stuff.

[1:42:09] >> And you would you would stuff your cheek

[1:42:11] or you'd stuff your your lip.

[1:42:13] >> Wow.

[1:42:13] >> Yeah. This was a thing. Yeah. So it was

[1:42:16] >> it was kind of like jerky flavored

[1:42:18] sawdust.

[1:42:18] >> It was and also it had barely any it was

[1:42:21] probably like four grams of protein per

[1:42:23] >> in the entire

[1:42:24] >> and you would pay more for it and it was

[1:42:26] because it was you know a good way to

[1:42:28] take in something. So these canisters

[1:42:29] are also very reinforced. Yeah. It's

[1:42:31] really tactile. It's nice and also like

[1:42:33] you know it's your back pocket. Guys

[1:42:34] love carrying something in their back

[1:42:36] pocket. Nobody wants to carry the man

[1:42:38] purse

[1:42:39] >> you know. I might have brought like a

[1:42:40] small zip thing to the gym today.

[1:42:42] >> I did see that. I did see that.

[1:42:43] >> Yeah. You didn't ask what was in it, but

[1:42:45] I'm not going to tell you.

[1:42:46] >> What are the spiciest protocols that you

[1:42:49] weren't able to put in the book? What

[1:42:51] was the stuff that you wish that you

[1:42:53] could have got clearance on?

[1:42:54] >> Right. So, the book is everything I'm

[1:42:57] certain about that we understand the

[1:42:59] mechanisms for and that I know work. Not

[1:43:03] just because I experienced that, but

[1:43:04] because many many people have and we

[1:43:06] have great data to support it. Like

[1:43:07] everything's substantiated. There's only

[1:43:08] one protocol that's a little bit out

[1:43:10] there. And I said, "This is kind of out

[1:43:11] there. We have a little bit of data, not

[1:43:13] a not a ton, but here's here's why I'm

[1:43:16] including it, and I think you might want

[1:43:17] to try this because it can really help

[1:43:19] you fall asleep when you talk about

[1:43:20] this. Um, but we know why it ought to

[1:43:22] work. Um, I don't talk about

[1:43:25] psychedelics, although I do fit them

[1:43:27] into a framework along plasticity and

[1:43:29] learning and so they make sense of when

[1:43:31] they might might be the appropriate

[1:43:33] tool. I don't talk about hormone

[1:43:36] therapies and I don't talk about

[1:43:37] peptides

[1:43:39] >> in part because the data are still

[1:43:40] coming and also because there'll likely

[1:43:43] be a second book although you know if

[1:43:46] you write a book like this long with you

[1:43:48] know thousands of references and you

[1:43:50] know it can damage relationships in your

[1:43:52] life people have been super

[1:43:53] understanding this book basically acted

[1:43:54] as a filter in my in my own life for

[1:43:56] like who really loves me right so um but

[1:44:00] look it's big but it also operates as a

[1:44:02] doors stop

[1:44:03] >> a weapon Yeah, I was going to say

[1:44:04] >> if you're feeling not quite tall enough

[1:44:06] at the table, you can sit on it at

[1:44:08] Thanksgiving. And um and as I joke, if

[1:44:10] nothing else, it'll cure insomnia.

[1:44:13] >> Very nice. Okay. What are some

[1:44:17] protocols that you fully believe in, but

[1:44:19] you can't scientifically prove?

[1:44:21] >> Oo,

[1:44:23] that's really good. Um

[1:44:27] Okay. Yeah, let's just be blunt here. Um

[1:44:30] but these would be things that aren't in

[1:44:31] the in the book, right? Okay. because

[1:44:33] everything there is substantiated uh by

[1:44:35] mechanism and description. Um so

[1:44:41] I have had some wild experiences with a

[1:44:44] couple of peptides that most people some

[1:44:46] people have heard about. Um you know I

[1:44:49] don't have shoulder pain. I've never had

[1:44:50] shoulder pain but about 3 4 months ago I

[1:44:54] made the decision I was like you know I

[1:44:55] should start doing some heavy pressing

[1:44:57] again. I I [clears throat] do my dips. I

[1:44:59] do my overhead presses. So I just

[1:45:00] started doing some like I don't like

[1:45:01] flat benching so I did some low incline

[1:45:03] pressing and after about 3 months 2 3

[1:45:07] months I started getting some shoulder

[1:45:08] pain so I started doing some external

[1:45:10] rotation work doing I'm like this thing

[1:45:12] isn't going away like what is this maybe

[1:45:14] I need to back off and it's like you

[1:45:16] know what like it's pretty bad I'm going

[1:45:18] to just put two injections of BPC in

[1:45:21] there. So, two injections of maybe 100

[1:45:24] or 200 micrograms. Tiny amounts, right?

[1:45:27] Um, gone.

[1:45:29] History. Can't find the pain. It's gone.

[1:45:32] Now, is it placebo? I don't know. Maybe

[1:45:34] it is. I mean, I knew what I was

[1:45:36] injecting. A better experiment would

[1:45:38] have been somebody, you know, traded out

[1:45:40] uh saline and I go, "Oh, my, you know,

[1:45:42] that didn't happen." Um, that's pretty

[1:45:45] incredible. The animal data are really

[1:45:47] impressive. And I know a number of

[1:45:48] people with pets, dogs in particular,

[1:45:51] who've been injecting their animals with

[1:45:52] BPC because their dogs are getting

[1:45:54] older. I don't want to name names here

[1:45:55] because it's I haven't cleared it with

[1:45:57] them, but um

[1:45:59] >> they have dogs that either had spinal

[1:46:01] strokes or just aged and were limping

[1:46:04] and not doing well. And they asked, you

[1:46:06] know, does this stuff work in animals?

[1:46:07] I'm like, all the data are in [laughter]

[1:46:08] animals, you know. Um, so mouse and rat

[1:46:11] owners like your your mice and rats will

[1:46:13] visit

[1:46:14] >> if you rupture the exact because there a

[1:46:16] lot of data on that. Um, but I know a

[1:46:18] lot of people now um injecting their

[1:46:21] dogs, aged dogs, and saying, "Oh my

[1:46:23] goodness, this is crazy." Like they're

[1:46:24] more mobile, etc. And it's hard to give

[1:46:27] the placebo argument there. I mean, you

[1:46:29] could say that the owners are doing

[1:46:31] other things like they're also massaging

[1:46:34] more care. They didn't do the saline

[1:46:36] control, you know, but kind of hard to

[1:46:39] explain it away.

[1:46:40] >> Okay.

[1:46:40] >> Okay. So,

[1:46:42] >> the other one is pinealon. Um,

[1:46:45] pinealon is ironically is a peptide that

[1:46:48] doesn't come from the pineal, comes from

[1:46:50] brain tissue. Epiallen comes from the

[1:46:52] pineal. Who names this stuff? It's like

[1:46:54] it's insane. But um I've experimented

[1:46:57] with pinealon every third or fourth

[1:47:00] night taking about about a you know uh

[1:47:03] tenth of an IU.

[1:47:06] And um

[1:47:08] in those nights those nights I get

[1:47:10] anywhere from 2 and 1 half to 3 hours of

[1:47:12] REM sleep. That's a lot of REM sleep

[1:47:15] inside of 6 to 7 hours. inside of six

[1:47:17] hours, you're kind of cheating the

[1:47:19] system because like wow I like normally

[1:47:22] I'd have to get into my last third of

[1:47:24] sleep which for me is seven or eight

[1:47:25] hours in order to um total in order to

[1:47:28] get that REM enriched phase which always

[1:47:30] comes at the end of the night. But

[1:47:32] what's what's so wild is that on the

[1:47:34] subsequent nights I also experience this

[1:47:37] massive REM increase.

[1:47:38] >> So it's I've cut that back to doing it

[1:47:40] once a week or once every 10 days and

[1:47:43] still getting the same effect. The only

[1:47:44] downside for me is that the next day I

[1:47:47] can feel not foggy, but I feel like it's

[1:47:50] harder to become fully alert.

[1:47:52] >> I can still focus, but

[1:47:53] >> a little bit of sleep inertia maybe.

[1:47:55] >> And I know people who are taking it in

[1:47:56] the daytime because they like being in

[1:47:58] this kind of shallow plane of sleepwake

[1:48:01] for cognitive work. That's not me. But

[1:48:03] um you know there's talk about I don't

[1:48:05] you know well I mean rumors whatever

[1:48:07] there's talk about people at tech

[1:48:09] companies who are like oh yeah if you're

[1:48:11] going to do something for you know 12

[1:48:12] hours that's like really laborious maybe

[1:48:15] this is good. I don't know.

[1:48:16] [clears throat]

[1:48:17] >> Um so that's been interesting. Um

[1:48:20] you know I think there's a lot of

[1:48:22] excitement nowadays about growth hormone

[1:48:24] secrets things like tessiml and upper

[1:48:26] morela and CJC. I'm not a fan. They've

[1:48:29] always nuked my REM sleep. They've

[1:48:30] always spiked my PSA. I I just for me

[1:48:32] they don't they don't tend to work. Um I

[1:48:35] am curious about but I I don't think I'm

[1:48:38] old enough yet to really embark on a um

[1:48:41] sematotrope growth hormone experiment

[1:48:43] but the clinical trial exploring lowd

[1:48:46] dose growth hormone for people

[1:48:48] >> that would be exogenous right

[1:48:49] >> that would be exogenous. Yeah. Um that's

[1:48:52] intriguing to me but there there are

[1:48:54] data right there are data but I feel

[1:48:56] like at 51

[1:48:58] >> I'm like still in this place where I

[1:49:00] feel good. So, so there's no real

[1:49:02] science there. The other, sorry, aside

[1:49:04] from the growth hormone thing, the other

[1:49:05] stuff is there's animal data, not human

[1:49:07] data, but my experience has been pretty

[1:49:10] impressive. Now, of course, maybe I gave

[1:49:12] myself a tumor by injecting the BBC. I

[1:49:14] have to acknowledge that. Um, but a

[1:49:15] whole body MRI tells me no. So, you

[1:49:18] know, um,

[1:49:20] >> the things that,

[1:49:23] >> well, I've talked about this openly, um,

[1:49:27] so I I'm happy to talk about it. Um, you

[1:49:30] know, you'll find clinical trials on

[1:49:31] MDMA assisted psychotherapy for PTSD.

[1:49:35] You'll find clinical trial, beautiful

[1:49:38] clinical trial data in my opinion on

[1:49:40] psilocybin for depression and PTSD. Um,

[1:49:44] you won't find a lot of data combining

[1:49:46] them. Um, I've I've experimented in a

[1:49:50] clinical setting with combining them,

[1:49:52] right? This is done in a legal clinical

[1:49:53] setting. So you know that means therapy

[1:49:57] going in, therapy during, therapy coming

[1:49:59] out. You have to be very thoughtful

[1:50:00] about where you do this and who you do

[1:50:02] it with. They have to all the adequate

[1:50:04] supports have to be there. But uh for me

[1:50:06] that was incredible. I have to say that

[1:50:08] um psilocybin alone was helpful but

[1:50:11] didn't really feel like it resolved

[1:50:14] certain things for me. MDMA was helpful

[1:50:17] and being feeling feelings etc. But that

[1:50:19] first and that kind of first and second

[1:50:21] bin acknowledging the thing and really

[1:50:22] feeling the feelings bin.

[1:50:24] >> But the moving through part um was

[1:50:27] really for me was uncoupling the

[1:50:29] negative feelings from the from the

[1:50:31] negative thing but also replacing the

[1:50:34] negative feelings with positive feelings

[1:50:36] that really came about through that

[1:50:38] combination therapy and and you won't

[1:50:40] find a lot of data on that. I mean that

[1:50:42] it's unfortunately

[1:50:44] um the data on polyfarmarmacology of

[1:50:47] different psychedelics isn't there yet

[1:50:50] but then again the FDA approval for the

[1:50:52] first single treat you know single

[1:50:55] ingredient approaches aren't there yet

[1:50:57] and so that's why people have to go out

[1:50:59] of country to do this um

[1:51:02] >> or else it's illegal so I think that the

[1:51:06] you know the the data on ibain are

[1:51:07] really intriguing we've had

[1:51:09] conversations with people that are very

[1:51:10] open about the fact that They did it and

[1:51:12] it's helped them. I know a number of

[1:51:13] people are trying to get us to

[1:51:15] >> go down to Mexico and do are we going to

[1:51:16] go

[1:51:16] >> on a daily basis? I feel like I'm being

[1:51:18] peppered by somebody else to go, "Hey,

[1:51:20] man, just come down and turn your life

[1:51:21] upside down for a week in [ __ ]

[1:51:23] Mexico." I didn't know.

[1:51:24] >> I have a friend that's there right now.

[1:51:25] And um I'm told not to go. Honestly, I'm

[1:51:28] sorry, but I I just was like, you don't

[1:51:29] he doesn't have a substance abuse issue,

[1:51:31] so maybe he has PTSD, but I think

[1:51:34] there's this idea also with peptides

[1:51:36] that we can just uplevel ourselves. Like

[1:51:38] people say, should I use peptides?

[1:51:40] what what effect are you looking for?

[1:51:42] Better.

[1:51:43] >> Yeah.

[1:51:43] >> You know, it's sort of like uh you know,

[1:51:45] it's sort of like should I invest in

[1:51:46] blank? It's like, well, what effect are

[1:51:48] you looking for? And they're like more.

[1:51:49] They want more money.

[1:51:50] >> Um so it's it's understandable. People

[1:51:52] want to feel better. If like you feel

[1:51:54] seven out of 10,

[1:51:56] >> could you feel 10 out of 10? If you feel

[1:51:57] 10 out of 10, could you change what 10

[1:52:00] means

[1:52:00] >> and be eight out of a new 10 that's way

[1:52:03] better than your current 10 out of 10?

[1:52:05] Like that's an intriguing idea, but I'm

[1:52:08] not so afraid of the ibane to be honest.

[1:52:11] Done in the proper clinic with heart

[1:52:12] rate monitoring. The thing I'm afraid of

[1:52:14] is the DMT.

[1:52:15] >> Yeah, because they have to hit you with

[1:52:16] that the day after and then pretty much

[1:52:19] straight after as well.

[1:52:20] >> I also know a number of people who have

[1:52:21] done DMT and they're I mean I know

[1:52:23] plenty that have done DMT and they're

[1:52:24] okay. I know a lot done DMT and they're

[1:52:26] genuinely weird now.

[1:52:29] Not all of them, but some of them are

[1:52:30] like legit weird.

[1:52:32] >> Yeah.

[1:52:32] >> And they were not that weird before.

[1:52:34] Some are perfectly fine. The other thing

[1:52:36] is a guy like DJ, he's talked about

[1:52:38] this, right? I love that podcast that

[1:52:40] you guys did, by the way. Like DJ is a

[1:52:44] solid mind,

[1:52:46] you know? So,

[1:52:47] >> well, also he's starting from a very low

[1:52:49] baseline. If you're sat watching the

[1:52:51] sunset with a gun in your mouth, like

[1:52:53] you're already like what what what's

[1:52:55] going to be worse, you know? Like you've

[1:52:57] already considered taking your own life.

[1:52:59] Okay, you go smoke the thing, take the

[1:53:02] drugs, see how you feel.

[1:53:04] >> Yeah. I mean, it seems to have really

[1:53:06] helped him and Marcus and some of these

[1:53:08] >> helped him enough that he's

[1:53:10] trying to be a like matraee for me and

[1:53:14] you, but a matraee that sits down at the

[1:53:16] table, eats along with what if we go to

[1:53:17] sleep one night, not near each other, of

[1:53:20] course. Um, and uh,

[1:53:22] >> although actually from where we live

[1:53:24] actually near each other.

[1:53:25] >> So I I I got a a place that turned out

[1:53:28] to be really close to Chris.

[1:53:31] >> It's going to be like the podcaster

[1:53:33] neighborhood if we're not careful. Um,

[1:53:35] it's cool, man. We ended up being

[1:53:36] neighbors. Good taste. Good taste in

[1:53:38] neighborhoods. Um, but what if uh you go

[1:53:41] to sleep in your house and I go to sleep

[1:53:43] in my house and then we we wake up in in

[1:53:46] Mexico in this clinic. I

[1:53:48] >> because DJ's done.

[1:53:49] >> Somebody did someone did a Maduro.

[1:53:52] >> I got [ __ ] Maduro Road by DJ Shipley.

[1:53:54] >> Exactly. Uh I've had similar things

[1:53:57] happen in totally different contexts

[1:53:58] years ago. Uh where I was supposed to

[1:54:01] get dropped off after working with this

[1:54:03] some friends. I have this awesome band.

[1:54:05] Um and they were supposed to drop me off

[1:54:07] uh back at my lab in my car. And I I

[1:54:09] woke up in Utah. They drove to Utah in

[1:54:12] the middle of the night. I woke up. I

[1:54:14] was like, "Where are we?" He's like,

[1:54:15] "Yuto?" I was like, "You're one of us

[1:54:17] now." [laughter]

[1:54:18] >> This is my good friend Elvis Cortez. He

[1:54:20] was actually the one that found me,

[1:54:21] Costello, and I love Elvis. He's great.

[1:54:24] But yeah, they uh technically they

[1:54:26] kidnapped me, but it was it was a lot of

[1:54:27] fun. That was that was many years ago.

[1:54:29] Um

[1:54:30] >> I don't know. We'll see. We'll we'll

[1:54:32] see.

[1:54:32] >> There are other things that that are uh

[1:54:35] perhaps a little less of the Mount

[1:54:37] Everest of of that stuff, but

[1:54:39] >> lower lower risk.

[1:54:40] >> But you seem to be in a really good

[1:54:41] place now.

[1:54:42] >> That's true. But still there's always

[1:54:46] the sort of ability to show up uh versus

[1:54:49] how much of the four steps have you done

[1:54:52] in terms of being able to get over

[1:54:53] >> sort of how do you respond when people

[1:54:56] say um they go oh my goodness like here

[1:54:59] you are looking for this next thing or

[1:55:00] the thing you can do and they and they

[1:55:02] just say Chris what you really need to

[1:55:04] do is just get married and have a couple

[1:55:06] kids and that will be the psychedelic

[1:55:08] experience.

[1:55:08] >> I I agree. I say yes plus plus two

[1:55:10] golden retrievers. I agree. And I say

[1:55:12] yes. They're not preaching to the choir.

[1:55:14] >> Two girls and retrievers.

[1:55:15] >> Golden retrievers.

[1:55:16] >> Golden retrievers.

[1:55:17] >> I mean I that's a Freudian slip from

[1:55:19] you.

[1:55:19] >> No, it's a from you.

[1:55:21] >> I said [ __ ] golden retreat. People

[1:55:22] can rewind the tape. Uh I I completely

[1:55:25] agree. I completely I completely agree

[1:55:27] on that. And um I I've said this before

[1:55:29] like I'm the most ardent guy without

[1:55:32] kids supporter and ambassador for guys

[1:55:35] just starting a [ __ ] family. And it's

[1:55:37] not for me to say, "Hey, I want you to

[1:55:39] stop your ambition." And the same for

[1:55:40] women too. like you stop your

[1:55:42] socioeconomic climb and doing all this

[1:55:43] stuff just like so many of the things

[1:55:45] that I see people doing, you know, young

[1:55:48] people and people that are getting into

[1:55:49] more middle age are like surrogate

[1:55:51] families. It's like the the business

[1:55:53] that you're building, the fervor with

[1:55:55] which you're going after this political

[1:55:58] party or this new sort of social

[1:56:00] campaign or this like obsessive

[1:56:04] hobby that you've got or, you know,

[1:56:06] trying [clears throat] to become wealthy

[1:56:08] or whatever. A lot of that to me looks

[1:56:10] and feels like this is the energy that

[1:56:13] you would be putting into a family

[1:56:16] especially the existential energy that

[1:56:17] you got. And I'm like um I I think a lot

[1:56:19] of your I don't really know what my

[1:56:21] purpose is. I don't feel like I'm

[1:56:23] contributing more largely to the world

[1:56:25] all of these questions that people have

[1:56:26] like why am I here? It's like well a lot

[1:56:29] of this I think has kind of been solved

[1:56:30] throughout time which is like you you do

[1:56:33] the golden retriever thing and the

[1:56:34] family thing like golden retrievers do

[1:56:36] come first. That is an important caveat

[1:56:37] for me. Interesting choice of breed.

[1:56:39] >> Uh, dude, I just want an animal that

[1:56:42] can't There is no danger of it competing

[1:56:44] with me cognitively. So, I want

[1:56:46] something that's both cuddly and stupid.

[1:56:48] Uh, so

[1:56:48] >> golden retrievers are not all stupid.

[1:56:50] >> I'm going to I'm going to try and find a

[1:56:51] breed of golden retriever which is

[1:56:53] particularly fluffy and stupid.

[1:56:54] >> Just find a dog with a really flat head

[1:56:56] in your house.

[1:56:57] >> Single digit IQ golden retriever. I

[1:56:59] mean, if you think about the mastiff

[1:57:00] breeds, they're all very sweet and they

[1:57:01] have flat heads and they look at you

[1:57:03] like,

[1:57:04] >> you know, so the the mastiffs, the

[1:57:06] bulldogs, the, you know, the boxers that

[1:57:08] they're smart about certain things, but

[1:57:10] they're kind of like dog with a flat

[1:57:11] head.

[1:57:12] >> Okay?

[1:57:12] >> You know,

[1:57:13] >> are you doing frenology for dogs?

[1:57:16] >> I mean, I I went to the

[1:57:17] >> This is [ __ ] phronology for dogs.

[1:57:19] >> I went to the meet the breeds in New

[1:57:20] York and met hundreds of breeds. Second

[1:57:22] time I've done this, right? And walked

[1:57:24] through and met all the different

[1:57:25] breeds. And I can tell you a couple

[1:57:27] things. First of all, people look like

[1:57:28] they're dogs. Okay, so the otter look a

[1:57:30] lot like Strummer.

[1:57:32] >> You know, the Thank [laughter] you. Uh

[1:57:34] the otter hounds, like these otter

[1:57:36] hounds, they're the owners look like

[1:57:38] otter hounds. It's crazy. The bulldogs

[1:57:41] are kind of goo like the the demeanor of

[1:57:42] the people and you just and it's wild.

[1:57:45] You have to go. It's so much fun. It's

[1:57:46] at the Javit Center each year. It's

[1:57:48] awesome. You meet all the breeds.

[1:57:49] >> I walked out of there. I was like, you

[1:57:51] know, I I turned to my girlfriend. I go,

[1:57:54] getting a bulldog breed. I'm going to

[1:57:55] mut because I've I've been around enough

[1:57:57] dogs. I've I've experienced them all.

[1:57:59] And the the mudded bullies, not the pure

[1:58:01] bullies, but the mudded bullies, they're

[1:58:03] they're kind. They're vigorous. They're

[1:58:05] got a little bit of goofiness.

[1:58:07] >> They're very emotional in a good way,

[1:58:09] but then they also like get over their

[1:58:11] just like a little hedonist sometimes

[1:58:12] and

[1:58:13] >> and they'll back you like they will they

[1:58:15] will fight to the death for you, but if

[1:58:17] your life's not on the line, like

[1:58:18] they're not doing [ __ ] at all. They're

[1:58:20] not reactive. Not reactive. I mean, are

[1:58:22] you kidding me? Um, so yeah. Well,

[1:58:25] listen, I hope you get a dog. Then the

[1:58:27] dogs can hang out in the neighborhood.

[1:58:28] Um, and I do think that No, I mean,

[1:58:30] family is awesome. I mean, family is

[1:58:32] amazing. Uh, so what so what's the

[1:58:35] what's the delay? You're

[1:58:36] >> Well, it's very difficult to try. Yeah.

[1:58:38] First off, I need to get the dog thing.

[1:58:39] I always felt guilty cuz my mom and dad

[1:58:41] have been so good with dogs. Like they

[1:58:43] would they walked them all the time.

[1:58:44] They gave them a great life. And I would

[1:58:46] feel I I've seen what a good life for a

[1:58:48] dog looks like. And I would feel

[1:58:50] incredibly guilty not being able to and

[1:58:53] I can pay someone, I'm sure, or somebody

[1:58:55] I can bring bring them to the office,

[1:58:57] bring them on the trip or whatever. I'm

[1:58:58] like, I I want I don't want to have a

[1:59:00] dog that's flying once a week or you

[1:59:02] know that I'm having

[1:59:03] >> Do you travel that much?

[1:59:04] >> Uh I did what like 100,000 miles and

[1:59:06] maybe 80 flights last year. I've done

[1:59:09] like 80,000 miles this year. I I don't

[1:59:11] want to do that.

[1:59:12] >> Also for kids, you want to be present

[1:59:13] for your kids.

[1:59:14] >> Of course. And that but that is another

[1:59:16] thing that I think is it's kind of

[1:59:18] beautiful if you frame it this way and

[1:59:20] at least maybe this is just cope from me

[1:59:22] uh that

[1:59:24] if you take the oh my god maybe I have

[1:59:28] just been surrogate family building with

[1:59:30] this business or with this hobby or with

[1:59:32] this body or with whatever this finance

[1:59:34] this investing whatever it is that

[1:59:35] you've been doing with your time skill

[1:59:36] building. But on the flip side of that,

[1:59:39] I think if you've really closed a lot of

[1:59:41] the different loops of like I really

[1:59:43] feel like I like put it all out there on

[1:59:45] the table, I do get the sense that there

[1:59:48] is an additional level of presence

[1:59:50] that's afforded to you because

[1:59:51] materially hopefully you're you're

[1:59:53] you're pretty well set.

[1:59:53] >> I can tell you I mean I don't want to

[1:59:54] get into details of my personal life but

[1:59:57] 100%. I'll also tell you as a hard

[1:59:59] driving like in pursuit of knowledge,

[2:00:02] skills and resources person which you

[2:00:04] are which I am and which our teams are

[2:00:06] also I mean very very few things feel as

[2:00:11] good as being able to resource the

[2:00:13] people around you that you love. Of

[2:00:14] course,

[2:00:15] >> like that there's like yes, your

[2:00:17] presence obviously it's not just about

[2:00:19] earning money and giving them things,

[2:00:21] but being able to relieve suffering,

[2:00:24] however minor or major, being able to uh

[2:00:27] resource people to be in their full

[2:00:29] expression of what they want to do. Like

[2:00:31] I I I think very few things will feel as

[2:00:34] satisfying as as that. Especially if you

[2:00:38] and I say that based on knowing you, but

[2:00:39] also your prior statement. The fact that

[2:00:41] you don't want a dog yet

[2:00:43] >> because you want the dog to be

[2:00:45] >> thoroughly resourced by your by the the

[2:00:48] love that you're going to, you know,

[2:00:50] provide

[2:00:51] >> tells you everything you need to know.

[2:00:52] >> David Pell, who does uh how I write and

[2:00:54] write a passage, it was when I first

[2:00:57] moved to Austin, and he's about similar

[2:00:59] age to me, and he said, we're having

[2:01:01] coffee. He turned to me one day and he

[2:01:03] said, "Uh, you know what, man? I

[2:01:05] realized that most of my 20s and 30s

[2:01:07] were just spent becoming the dad that I

[2:01:08] want my future kids to have. And I

[2:01:10] wasn't even bothered about having kids.

[2:01:12] And all of the accumulation of skills,

[2:01:14] of habits, of you know, closing the

[2:01:16] loops of desires that he wanted to

[2:01:18] pursuits and adventure and all of this

[2:01:20] stuff, he got rid of that and he said,

[2:01:22] "I now I sort of I feel like I'm here is

[2:01:25] a way that you could say it. It's like I

[2:01:26] actually feel like I'm [ __ ] here."

[2:01:28] And I think a lot of guys and you see

[2:01:29] this with a lot of dads and moms too

[2:01:31] like I've got these unrequited dreams

[2:01:33] and children sort of imposed on them and

[2:01:35] there's this you know low-key perhaps

[2:01:37] resentment of oh you know I'm doing this

[2:01:39] thing but you don't know what I

[2:01:40] sacrificed for you and then there's this

[2:01:42] shame around oh my god what sort of a

[2:01:44] monster am I to blame my kids that I

[2:01:45] chose to have because I didn't fulfill

[2:01:47] my dreams beforehand.

[2:01:50] >> Yeah really messy. Yeah, I mean I I want

[2:01:52] to be thoughtful with my words here

[2:01:54] because again I I do like to maintain

[2:01:55] some sense of privacy in my life, but I

[2:01:57] will say that um it does check off a

[2:02:01] sort of a a deep um must what must be a

[2:02:05] primitive circuit of like of of

[2:02:08] satisfaction like having kids is a

[2:02:10] really good feeling like it just feels

[2:02:11] like like you fulfilled something of

[2:02:14] duty, you know? um that feels really

[2:02:17] really good and at the same time it

[2:02:19] comes with all sorts of challenges and

[2:02:20] complications you know um but yeah I

[2:02:24] think that um you know it's become this

[2:02:26] uh kind of ongoing debate you know

[2:02:28] between me and Lex or like you know you

[2:02:30] know like a like you know but I think

[2:02:32] that look it sounds like there are going

[2:02:34] to be a lot of kids to wrestle and play

[2:02:37] >> I can't wait it is a competition between

[2:02:39] me you and him for who will have kids

[2:02:40] last but we'll we'll we'll see who's

[2:02:42] who's the holder

[2:02:43] >> I think I'm well I'm going to

[2:02:46] out. Um I'm going to keep my mouth shut.

[2:02:48] Um but in um because we all never mind.

[2:02:52] Um

[2:02:53] >> yeah, take this back. Take this back.

[2:02:55] >> Okay. It's turning you crazy.

[2:02:56] >> So um I've been asking you questions.

[2:03:00] This feels good. I didn't tell you that

[2:03:01] the last page of the book is where I do

[2:03:03] therapy on you. No, I'm just kidding. Uh

[2:03:05] no, but can I can I read my

[2:03:06] acknowledgement to you?

[2:03:07] >> Absolutely.

[2:03:08] >> I didn't even I didn't even get to that

[2:03:10] bit.

[2:03:10] >> Oh, wherever the [ __ ] is I'm going to do

[2:03:11] this. I I acknowledge you. Uh here um

[2:03:20] here we go. So it's brief because the

[2:03:24] acknowledgements are five pages long. I

[2:03:26] think there's eight pages long. But I

[2:03:29] figure if you're going to do something,

[2:03:30] you just do it. So I just put a bunch of

[2:03:31] names. Um, I put you uh Chris Williamson

[2:03:35] for your friendship and for breathing so

[2:03:38] much life into the podcast and what I

[2:03:40] refer to as the everyone's sphere

[2:03:42] because I don't think you're about the

[2:03:43] manosphere. I think you're about the

[2:03:45] human sphere, but human sphere sounded

[2:03:47] weird. So, I said everyone's sphere. So,

[2:03:49] I I I mean it. You breathe so much life

[2:03:51] into this thing. Like I remember first

[2:03:53] seeing you online and then you on Rogan

[2:03:56] and I, you know, and I not a skeptic. I

[2:03:59] always want the best. So, I thought,

[2:04:00] well, who is this guy with this British

[2:04:02] accent? And like, so, you know, and why

[2:04:04] are the women in my life asking me if

[2:04:06] he's single? Um, and um, and I go, well,

[2:04:11] this guy is really smart. He's really

[2:04:13] nuanced and he seems like a really cool

[2:04:15] guy. And you totally exceeded

[2:04:17] expectations on all those things. And

[2:04:18] it's awesome to just see what you're

[2:04:20] doing. And also, day or night, you're

[2:04:22] available for an emergency or or an

[2:04:24] adventure call. You'll get to the gym

[2:04:26] early on jet lag. feel. Um, and you've

[2:04:29] been super honest and vulnerable in your

[2:04:32] online and in our in that career and

[2:04:36] relationship with your audience, but

[2:04:37] also just one-on-one. I you know, there

[2:04:39] um for anyone that wonders, Chris is who

[2:04:42] he appears to be on the internet, which

[2:04:43] is really

[2:04:44] >> for better or for worse. Yeah.

[2:04:45] >> No, for better, man. For better. For

[2:04:47] better. Like, it's a it's an honor to

[2:04:48] have you as a friend. You're a great

[2:04:50] great friend, and I I feel very blessed.

[2:04:52] >> It it is it is really cool. You know, I

[2:04:54] I think one of the almost inarguable

[2:04:57] great parts of life is becoming

[2:05:00] respected and admired by people that you

[2:05:02] respect and admire. Like it's one of the

[2:05:04] coolest things that you can do. My back

[2:05:05] is also hurting so I'm trying to self

[2:05:06] massage at the same time. We did neck

[2:05:08] training as well.

[2:05:08] >> We did a few face pulls.

[2:05:09] >> Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

[2:05:10] >> Yeah. This is sounding terrible. We Jeff

[2:05:12] Cavalier has an exercise called face

[2:05:14] >> face.

[2:05:15] We did some neck training because uh as

[2:05:17] we both know having a the wrong head

[2:05:20] placed like a if a neck is too narrow

[2:05:23] with wide shoulders it looks what do you

[2:05:24] call the coat hanger.

[2:05:25] >> Yeah. You look like a coat hanger. Yeah.

[2:05:26] Terrifying.

[2:05:27] >> But um

[2:05:28] >> you don't look like a coat hanger.

[2:05:30] >> Thank you. Uh

[2:05:31] >> yeah, becoming admired and respected by

[2:05:33] people that you admire and respect is

[2:05:35] just one of the [ __ ] coolest things.

[2:05:37] It really is. Like I like that person. I

[2:05:39] think they've got good taste. I think

[2:05:40] they're noble. I don't think that

[2:05:42] they're spiritually chinless and they

[2:05:45] >> spiritually chinless. If

[2:05:46] >> ever there was a Chris Williamson ism

[2:05:49] spiritually chinless.

[2:05:50] >> Spiritually chinless.

[2:05:51] >> I'm going to borrow that [clears throat]

[2:05:52] but I'll give you attributes.

[2:05:53] >> It's Adam Mastriani originally.

[2:05:55] Originally originally. So um looking

[2:05:57] around.

[2:05:58] >> Wait, you didn't make that up?

[2:05:59] >> No. Spiritually chinless is from Adam

[2:06:00] Mastriani.

[2:06:01] >> Oh

[2:06:02] >> well. You know that song breaking rocks

[2:06:04] in the hot sun. I fought the law in the

[2:06:08] cover of a cover of a cover.

[2:06:09] >> Okay. But everyone assumes the Clash did

[2:06:11] it.

[2:06:11] >> It's fine. You're at the end of the

[2:06:12] human centipede of spiritually chinless.

[2:06:14] Now you're the guy at the very very end.

[2:06:16] >> I'm going to just give it to you. You

[2:06:17] gave that song to to to the class.

[2:06:20] >> I'll take it. Spiritually journalist. So

[2:06:22] um you know, you see these people and

[2:06:23] you go, "Wow, they're they're they're

[2:06:24] cool. I respect them in a way that I

[2:06:26] think is really really sort of noble and

[2:06:27] aligned." And then if you manage to do

[2:06:31] something in that industry or a

[2:06:33] different industry and they turn to you

[2:06:34] and they say, "Hey, like I like what you

[2:06:36] do." Think, "Holy [ __ ] like that's

[2:06:38] really cool." And can people take it to

[2:06:40] an extreme? Yeah, of course. You can

[2:06:42] basically construct your entire life

[2:06:44] trying to reverse engineer being liked

[2:06:46] by people that you like. And that's the

[2:06:48] like charlatan social climber that

[2:06:50] doesn't have anything below them. But

[2:06:52] assuming that people that you respect

[2:06:53] are discerning and one of the reasons

[2:06:55] that you respect them is that they are

[2:06:56] discerning, you shouldn't be able to

[2:06:58] finesse or fugazi them, famoose them

[2:07:00] into believing something they don't

[2:07:02] believe or you being a person that you

[2:07:03] aren't. So yeah, man. Like I I really

[2:07:05] hope that everybody that's listening to

[2:07:06] this gets to experience what it's like

[2:07:08] to sit opposite someone that they were a

[2:07:11] fan of and then became a friend of. Like

[2:07:13] it's the [ __ ] coolest thing in the

[2:07:14] world. It's really really cool.

[2:07:15] >> Well, that statement includes my

[2:07:17] experience of you, you know, fan of and

[2:07:19] then became friends of. I you've got an

[2:07:21] awesome life energy. I we don't want to

[2:07:22] spiral into a whole other conversation,

[2:07:24] but maybe for a future time, but I think

[2:07:26] a lot about energy these days, not just

[2:07:29] mitochondria, but like some people

[2:07:32] genuinely have I'm going to offend some

[2:07:34] people with this. Some people just have

[2:07:35] more life energy in them. And I think I

[2:07:39] like to think that if you're thoughtful,

[2:07:42] which you are, and I tried to be, that

[2:07:44] you one allocates their life energy

[2:07:47] toward career and pursuits and health

[2:07:49] and resolve and the and then pivots that

[2:07:51] energy, but doesn't decide, you know,

[2:07:53] I'm going to shift all my chips to this

[2:07:55] and then all my chips to that. You have

[2:07:57] a lot of energy to go around. You know,

[2:07:59] Rob on my team, my producer of the

[2:08:01] podcast is such an engine of

[2:08:03] productivity and running and he's got a

[2:08:06] family now and it's like you always hear

[2:08:08] these things like people have kids and

[2:08:09] then they like slow like he's picked up

[2:08:12] speed. We're just like whoa. And

[2:08:15] >> you know I I think some people just have

[2:08:17] that extra gear. Some people don't and

[2:08:19] they need to take their whatever they've

[2:08:22] been allocated and do maximize with

[2:08:24] that. And some people just have a

[2:08:27] tremendous amount of life energy. And I

[2:08:29] think the goal is to not die at 27 if

[2:08:31] you have a lot of that energy, right?

[2:08:32] You think about the 27 club, it's almost

[2:08:34] like took all the energy of a life and

[2:08:36] crammed it into this early existence.

[2:08:38] Usually it's drugs and alcohol. Y

[2:08:41] >> you know, so but you also don't want a a

[2:08:44] like a low slow arc in life that you

[2:08:47] never figure out what your peaks are.

[2:08:48] >> Put your [ __ ] foot on the gas.

[2:08:50] >> Yeah, man. I'm in the third quarter now,

[2:08:51] so I figure I'm you know. So, speaking

[2:08:54] of engine, I texted you about this last

[2:08:56] week. What is happening with the V2 max

[2:08:58] versus zone 2 debate? Because when I was

[2:09:02] thinking more deeply about like I'm

[2:09:05] getting a little bit older, I should pay

[2:09:06] pay attention to my cardio respiratory

[2:09:08] fitness and stuff like that. Low and

[2:09:10] slow was like everything.

[2:09:11] >> Send me that Jeffrey Dalmer video.

[2:09:14] >> It wasn't a [ __ ] Jeffrey D.

[2:09:15] >> He sent me a video of a guy talking

[2:09:17] about this. It was a very good video and

[2:09:18] my first thought was the guy looks like

[2:09:20] Jeffrey Dalmer which is making it a

[2:09:21] little hard to listen to watch. So I

[2:09:23] just

[2:09:23] >> could have just listened and said that

[2:09:24] would have been good. What's happening

[2:09:25] with V2 max versus zone 2 debate at the

[2:09:27] moment in your opinion? Cuz for a long

[2:09:29] time it was focus exclusively on low and

[2:09:31] slow. Now it seems like the V2 more

[2:09:33] highintensity Norwegian 4x4 is

[2:09:35] increasingly important.

[2:09:36] >> I think the word to delete there is

[2:09:38] exclusively. I think my read of the data

[2:09:40] is you need some volume of cardio

[2:09:43] training uh to get that quote unquote

[2:09:45] aerobic base that can be very

[2:09:47] beneficial. I mean the the sorts of

[2:09:48] adaptations that come from doing 45 to

[2:09:50] 60 minutes of of long and slow we're not

[2:09:52] talking walking but zone 2 threeish. I

[2:09:55] don't ever think it was about zone 2.

[2:09:56] who I think about upper zone 2, zone

[2:09:58] three around there where you just barely

[2:10:02] can continue without you know you could

[2:10:04] try if you tried to speak you would you

[2:10:06] would have to pause a few times as

[2:10:08] opposed to just super easy I mean you

[2:10:10] are getting build up of more capillary

[2:10:12] networks um you know which has a lot of

[2:10:16] positive downstream consequences you're

[2:10:17] getting all sorts of enrichment of the

[2:10:19] mitochondrial system and the and genuine

[2:10:22] enrichment of the cardiovascular system

[2:10:25] but I think doing that once a week. So,

[2:10:28] I make it a point to do a long slow jog.

[2:10:31] So, 45 to 60 minutes or so once a week

[2:10:34] or a ruck for usually if I hike I'm

[2:10:37] going for longer than an hour. Um with

[2:10:39] some weight or something like that. It's

[2:10:40] often social with somebody. Um and then

[2:10:43] once a week I'll do the I feel like I'm

[2:10:45] going to die hit workout, which for me

[2:10:48] is the aine bike. 20 on, 10 off, eight

[2:10:51] rounds. And by the seventh round, you're

[2:10:52] just like cursing everybody and

[2:10:54] yourself. And you get off that thing,