Transcript
[0:07] [music]
[0:18] >> Peace be with you, my friends, and
[0:19] [music] welcome back to the Jesus Way
[0:20] podcast where we are restoring the
[0:22] original gospel teachings of Yeshua the
[0:25] Nazarene. [music]
[0:26] I'm Aaron Abke, joined alongside my
[0:28] co-host Mr. James Benefico.
[0:30] [music] And uh James, it's been a minute
[0:32] since we've been in this podcast studio.
[0:34] How's it feel to be back, man?
[0:35] >> It feels great. We're back, dialed in on
[0:38] God's timing.
[0:40] It's been a wild couple months.
[0:42] >> It sure has. Yeah, a lot of a lot of
[0:44] life has transpired since our last
[0:46] podcast.
[0:47] And we wanted to take a minute to
[0:48] explain the reason for the hiatus before
[0:50] we jump back
[0:52] uh into today's topic because a lot of
[0:54] you guys have been, you know, in the
[0:55] comments like, Aaron, what what happened
[0:57] to the Jesus Way podcast?
[0:59] And I'm like, we're coming back, don't
[1:00] worry, but we had to take a little time
[1:02] off because uh the first real catalyst
[1:05] was the the hacking of my YouTube
[1:08] channel back in I want to say late July.
[1:11] >> Mhm.
[1:11] >> Um
[1:12] long story short, I'd got some texts
[1:14] from my admin and they were very um
[1:16] strange. It was like 2:00 in the
[1:18] afternoon. I think I got back from the
[1:20] gym.
[1:21] >> I'm I told you not to visit those
[1:22] websites [laughter]
[1:24] and you
[1:26] >> Oh, don't blast me like that on our
[1:27] podcast, bro.
[1:28] >> I 'm sorry. He's better now. He's
[1:30] >> going to edit that out, Brad. Let's just
[1:31] get rid of that now.
[1:33] Um but here's what really happened. I
[1:34] got these texts from my admin,
[1:37] my admin's phone, and she said uh
[1:40] Aaron, send send the Gmail code.
[1:42] I need to get into your Gmail. And this
[1:43] is normal, right? Like my admin will ask
[1:46] me for Google codes a lot of the time.
[1:48] And so I just sent the Gmail code that I
[1:50] had gotten without thinking twice about
[1:51] it.
[1:52] And then a follow-up text came through
[1:54] that said, quick, send Coinbase code.
[1:57] And I just knew right away, that's not
[1:59] my admin. She would say quick, do this
[2:01] or do that. Plus, she doesn't need
[2:03] access to my Coinbase. So, I was like,
[2:05] oh no, is this a hacker? And I had the
[2:07] thought of I just sent a hacker my Gmail
[2:10] code.
[2:11] And you know, I've had these things
[2:12] happen before and you know, just
[2:14] [clears throat] block the number and
[2:14] move on. So, I didn't think too much of
[2:16] it. And then I think it was the next
[2:17] morning, it might have been you or
[2:19] somebody else sent me a text saying
[2:21] like, Aaron, someone's posting on your
[2:22] YouTube channel.
[2:24] And that's when it all began. And um
[2:27] not going to lie, it was a wallop or a
[2:28] catalyst because my YouTube channel is
[2:31] the top of funnel for my whole business
[2:32] and 40 University, how I make money for
[2:35] my family and my team members and put
[2:37] food on their tables too. And so all
[2:39] these thoughts, you know, fear-based
[2:40] thoughts started to spiral.
[2:42] And it was the kind of ultimate trust
[2:44] surrender catalyst for me.
[2:46] And uh you know, I had to deal with the
[2:49] spiraling for a few days and I just kept
[2:51] surrendering it to God and kind of
[2:52] turned a corner on day three or
[2:54] something like that and just felt like,
[2:56] you know, I don't know why this is
[2:58] happening, but A Course in Miracles
[3:00] says,
[3:01] as long as you trust in God, a happy
[3:03] outcome is guaranteed.
[3:04] >> Mhm.
[3:05] >> And so I just put my faith in that and I
[3:07] knew that something good is going to
[3:08] come of this, although I don't know what
[3:09] it is.
[3:10] And uh most of you guys have seen the
[3:12] video by now of what transpired. I'll
[3:14] I'll post a a link to the video here if
[3:16] you want to watch it. But essentially, I
[3:17] got to get my channel back using the
[3:20] Jesus way.
[3:21] Uh the the exact philosophy we teach
[3:23] here that forgiveness is the way.
[3:26] And I just wanted to I I truly didn't
[3:28] have any concept that this guy was going
[3:30] to give me my channel back. It was a it
[3:33] was a Muslim hacker from Iran, I
[3:35] believe.
[3:36] And you know, he's sending all these
[3:37] threats and they tried to extort me for
[3:39] money. And I just messaged him on
[3:41] Instagram and said, look, brother,
[3:43] I want you to know that like I forgive
[3:45] you for what you're doing, but you are
[3:46] violating the commandments of Allah in
[3:48] the Quran. You are stealing from another
[3:50] person. And I posted some verses from
[3:52] the Quran of forbidding, you know, Allah
[3:55] forbidding theft.
[3:56] >> Who was on Instagram? Was it on
[3:57] WhatsApp?
[3:58] >> It was Instagram.
[3:59] >> Oh, no way. He had like a burner
[4:00] Instagram?
[4:01] >> [clears throat]
[4:02] >> Yeah, he had commented. He made
[4:03] >> fake account with my Gmail and then I
[4:06] saw him commenting on one of my posts
[4:08] being like, I've got your channel. Haha,
[4:09] give me my money now.
[4:11] So I DM'd him and we had this really
[4:14] beautiful conversation, which again I'll
[4:15] save for the video. But suffice to say
[4:18] the Jesus Way philosophy clearly works,
[4:20] brother, because we got the channel back
[4:22] by the grace of God and
[4:24] I think he deleted, you know, 30
[4:26] something Jesus Way podcast episodes.
[4:28] YouTube eventually restored those,
[4:30] thankfully. But it it brought up a
[4:32] bigger catalyst for both James and I,
[4:35] which is that, you know, in all
[4:37] transparency, we do this podcast as a
[4:41] pure passion project. We make $0 on this
[4:44] podcast.
[4:45] All the ads we've ran so far on this
[4:47] podcast have just been to pay off this
[4:50] studio, which our friends Scott and John
[4:52] were generous enough to
[4:54] fund for us in return for running some
[4:56] ads for them.
[4:57] So yeah, we you know, we have businesses
[5:00] that is how we actually make money and
[5:02] this podcast, as you can imagine,
[5:04] requires an enormous amount of time and
[5:06] preparation and
[5:07] James and I have been locked in on this
[5:09] podcast for over a year and a half. And
[5:12] so we sort of decided to take a pause
[5:13] and say maybe this is a a call from God
[5:17] to put the podcast aside for a little
[5:19] bit, get our businesses back in order,
[5:21] and that way we can come back
[5:23] with a new resurgence to the podcast.
[5:25] And so I'm happy to say we've done that.
[5:27] I have personally totally restructured
[5:29] my business model in a way that's a lot
[5:31] more suitable for me, and you've made a
[5:33] lot of big changes to Organic Muscle as
[5:35] well. So we're glad to be back, but I'll
[5:37] I'll pitch it to you, man, for anything
[5:38] you want to say in that regard.
[5:40] >> Yeah, it was actually really helpful to
[5:42] have this extra period without, you
[5:44] know, spending 10 or 15 hours a week on
[5:46] the podcast just to get some of my ducks
[5:49] in a row with the business.
[5:51] And also,
[5:53] full transparency for the audience, I
[5:55] had an addiction I wanted to get in
[5:57] order.
[5:58] I've conquered so many addictions
[6:00] throughout my life and I still had one,
[6:01] which was nicotine.
[6:03] And I kicked that habit.
[6:04] >> Both of us.
[6:05] >> Yeah, Aaron too.
[6:07] Um,
[6:08] it was it's kind of hanging over it was
[6:11] hanging over my head a bit because we're
[6:13] teaching this the narrow way
[6:16] and how important it is to live in
[6:17] integrity and I knew deep down I had I
[6:20] did have this one addiction left
[6:23] and um it was a brutal process quitting.
[6:25] >> Mhm.
[6:26] >> It was brutal.
[6:27] And uh
[6:29] lots of demons come up and they try and
[6:30] convince you to get back
[6:32] but persevere. So I'm really excited to
[6:35] continue this podcast in full alignment
[6:37] with the health message that we preach
[6:40] about, you know, prioritizing the vessel
[6:43] because that's that's the foundation.
[6:45] >> Yeah.
[6:45] >> And I did feel like that addiction was
[6:48] blocking my connection to the creator a
[6:50] bit.
[6:51] >> Of course. Yeah. Yeah, it's especially
[6:53] hard for us here in Austin where like
[6:55] everybody we know, all of our friends
[6:57] use nicotine daily for work and love
[6:59] nicotine and
[7:00] >> entrepreneurs especially.
[7:02] >> Yeah, man. And you know, there's so many
[7:03] health benefits to nicotine. It's not
[7:05] like it's bad or something. It has it
[7:06] has a lot of upside, but anything that
[7:08] you get dependent on needing every day,
[7:11] you know, is it addiction and
[7:13] as trivial as some people may think it
[7:15] is, like
[7:16] being people who teach the Jesus way
[7:18] philosophy and we want to be as embodied
[7:20] in that as possible, we both had talked
[7:22] a lot about, you know, we need to we
[7:24] need to stop using this daily and and
[7:26] really give our body a long break from
[7:28] this and get back into full congruency
[7:31] with what we teach. And so that 's also
[7:32] something that's been uh a really great
[7:34] transition for us in this time off. So
[7:37] thank you all for your patience and
[7:38] giving us the space to kind of reorient
[7:40] our lives and come back to the podcast
[7:42] with a new found zeal and motivation.
[7:44] And we are excited today to get back
[7:45] into one of our premier topics, which is
[7:48] the conversation on Paul that has in the
[7:51] last few months, man,
[7:53] strangely just exploded on the public
[7:55] zeitgeist on social media. And uh we
[7:57] have a great guest back on our good
[7:59] friend David the Nazarene who's going to
[8:02] I guess it's our third Paul episode with
[8:03] David.
[8:04] >> It is.
[8:05] >> Um, so we're going to go into another
[8:07] big topic on the Paul subject, which is
[8:09] this whole defensive Paul from Second
[8:11] Peter 3:16 and that tends to be kind of
[8:14] the primary defense people use for Paul.
[8:16] And so we wanted to do a standalone
[8:18] video uh focusing on that exact rebuttal
[8:22] because most of our audience, probably
[8:24] you guys hear this all the time from
[8:26] Christian friends and family or just in
[8:28] your you know comment section on
[8:30] Instagram and YouTube. It's kind of the
[8:32] one big major defense that is used in
[8:35] defense of Paul and there's big big
[8:38] problems with it. And so joining us
[8:40] again today for the third time back on
[8:41] the Jesus Way podcast is our good friend
[8:44] Mr. David the Nazarene. Welcome back to
[8:45] the pod, brother.
[8:47] >> Hey, good to be back.
[8:49] >> Great to have you back, man.
[8:51] We uh we've been talking a lot over text
[8:53] the last few months as this Paul
[8:55] conversation has mysteriously just
[8:58] exploded across the internet and is now
[9:01] pretty much as far as I can tell topic
[9:03] number one in the Christian zeitgeist
[9:05] and all the apologists are coming out of
[9:07] their armored castles with their weapons
[9:09] ready to defend their false Messiah and
[9:11] we just couldn't be more happy about it
[9:13] because we've been pushing and pushing
[9:14] and pushing this since day one on this
[9:16] podcast. But uh but you David you've
[9:19] been pushing this for I don't know how
[9:20] long at least you know better part of 10
[9:22] years I think. This is how we both found
[9:25] you was through researching the Paul
[9:26] versus Jesus conversation. So first of
[9:29] all just want to give you flowers for
[9:31] being one of the premier kind of
[9:32] pioneers of this conversation and want
[9:35] to ask you like first of all how do you
[9:37] feel seeing this you know we're going to
[9:39] watch a clip of Joe Rogan talking about
[9:40] this in a minute but how have you felt
[9:42] seeing this conversation finally spread
[9:44] across the internet and what are some
[9:46] things that you've noticed?
[9:48] If you're someone who loves reading and
[9:50] writing and you've wanted to maybe
[9:52] explore becoming an author yourself
[9:54] whether full-time or part-time our good
[9:56] friend Scott Shepper and Jesus Way
[9:58] podcast guest has written this amazing
[10:00] book called Penpreneur which teaches you
[10:03] how to make six figures a year writing
[10:05] one piece a month. So this is something
[10:07] you could do on as a side hobby as a
[10:09] side career, or as a full-time career,
[10:12] depending on how serious you want to be
[10:14] with your authorship. But this book is a
[10:16] gold mine for
[10:18] uh writing tools and secrets and
[10:20] strategies that will really enhance your
[10:22] ability to communicate ideas in book
[10:25] form. I'm working on my second book as
[10:27] we speak, and Penpreneur has been an
[10:29] indispensable tool for me
[10:31] to just help me upgrade my writing game
[10:33] and how to put together a book in a way
[10:34] that really keeps the reader engaged and
[10:36] wanting to turn the next page. And so I
[10:39] can't recommend this book enough for
[10:40] people who are wanting to venture into
[10:41] the world of authorship.
[10:43] >> Scott really walks the walk with this
[10:45] book. I mean, he used these exact
[10:46] strategies to go from essentially
[10:49] homeless to doing very well as an
[10:52] author.
[10:52] >> Yeah.
[10:53] >> He he implemented this very strategy
[10:56] that he's going to teach you in this
[10:57] book, and it's 100% for free for the
[11:00] Jesus Way audience. What a great gift to
[11:02] our people.
[11:03] >> Yeah, Scott's making this book available
[11:05] for basically for free, $4.95 just to
[11:07] cover the shipping. And you can get that
[11:09] by scanning the QR code on the screen
[11:11] right now, or you can go to
[11:13] jesuswaydiscount.com
[11:15] to get your copy of Penpreneur today and
[11:17] learn how to make six figures a year
[11:18] writing one piece a month.
[11:21] >> Well, um
[11:23] I don't know if you remember this, but
[11:25] it's probably been more than a year ago
[11:27] that you and I and and Cam were having a
[11:30] conversation, and
[11:32] I said, I feel like that that really
[11:33] what we need to do is impeach Paul
[11:35] before anything else because the public
[11:37] can't really
[11:39] understand the whole Nazarene position
[11:42] until that happens. And so now it's
[11:44] almost like that's just manifested
[11:45] before our eyes and
[11:47] um it's it's now in the in the public
[11:50] arena being discussed. There's all kind
[11:53] of reaction videos from
[11:56] Christian apologists trying to defend
[11:58] Paul. Um oddly enough, they don't
[12:01] do any defense of Paul. Uh it's a lot of
[12:03] grandstanding and it's a lot of
[12:05] attacking those that um criticize Paul.
[12:08] >> A lot of emotions.
[12:10] >> Right.
[12:12] So yeah, it's uh it's it's pretty
[12:13] amazing. And I think we're having a big
[12:15] effect just on not just that
[12:17] conversation, but
[12:19] there's a I saw a little bit of a video
[12:21] today of Dan McClellan talking about the
[12:24] whole
[12:27] the the Christian blood cult type of
[12:30] situation. So I mean it's starting to
[12:31] kind of
[12:33] even that part of our discussion is
[12:35] starting to hit hit the mainstream, so.
[12:38] >> Well
[12:39] these conversations we're having it
[12:41] brings back rationality to Christianity.
[12:44] So
[12:45] once once it starts proliferating into
[12:48] the the culture, I think a lot of people
[12:51] are going to start waking up and that's
[12:53] what we see happening.
[12:55] David, why do you think Christians are
[12:58] getting so triggered specifically by
[13:00] this topic? It seems like they really
[13:02] blow a gasket.
[13:04] What it is what is it specifically about
[13:06] the Paul conversation?
[13:09] >> I think that they know that their
[13:11] theology is completely based on Paul.
[13:16] You know it's
[13:17] it's like this
[13:20] that they lure you into the church
[13:22] preaching Jesus and then they deliver
[13:24] Paul. They don't you know they don't
[13:26] ever stick with Jesus. It's it's a
[13:29] religion
[13:31] about Jesus, but really in name only.
[13:34] So they if you take out Paul then they
[13:38] lose
[13:39] saved by faith alone, they lose
[13:42] the laws done away with and all of these
[13:45] pet doctrines that they have.
[13:47] Dispensationalism falls apart, which is
[13:49] really the basis of Protestantism at
[13:52] this point.
[13:54] So they'll they'll be forced to actually
[13:58] obey Jesus if we get rid of Paul and
[14:00] they can't have that.
[14:02] >> Well it's it's putting their salvific
[14:04] security at risk. A lot a lot of these
[14:07] people in their own minds believe
[14:09] they've secured salvation.
[14:11] So it's very discombobulating to will to
[14:15] >> Yeah.
[14:16] >> Absolutely,
[14:17] >> I I remember full well growing up in
[14:20] evangelical Christianity and you know,
[14:22] the vast majority of like worship songs
[14:24] you're singing on Sunday are all Pauline
[14:26] theology. For such a worm as I and I'm
[14:29] God, I'm just grateful that you would
[14:30] forgive a sinner like me and the blood,
[14:32] the blood, I drink the blood and pour
[14:33] the blood, the blood, the blood.
[14:35] And more than anything, I think it's
[14:36] just an ego reaction to being wrong
[14:39] about something, right?
[14:41] If you've been if you've spent thousands
[14:43] of hours in church with your arms raised
[14:45] high singing Pauline theology and
[14:47] thanking God for murdering Jesus on your
[14:49] behalf and then people come along and
[14:51] start exposing it as a total fallacy and
[14:54] in my opinion, a demonic inversion of
[14:55] Jesus's gospel.
[14:57] It's like the ego can't accept or
[14:59] swallow the concept that it could
[15:01] possibly have been that wrong about
[15:03] something. And I remember this cognitive
[15:05] dissonance with myself uh when I got my
[15:07] first pastoral job at Crossroads Bible
[15:10] Church in San Jose at 23 and I started
[15:12] to get annoyed that my pastor was
[15:14] literally only ever preaching Paul on
[15:16] Sundays.
[15:17] And then came the moment I've talked
[15:19] about on this podcast a lot where
[15:21] uh woman gives an offering testimony and
[15:23] her husband standing behind her and all
[15:25] this weird stuff and I'm like, wait,
[15:26] what are they doing here? And I come to
[15:28] find out like, oh, they take all these,
[15:30] you know, anti-woman passages in 2
[15:32] Timothy like literally like women can't
[15:34] even speak on a stage without their
[15:35] husband cuz they're defiled and you
[15:37] know, we know that Paul didn't write 2
[15:38] Timothy, but it's some Pauline group
[15:40] trying to harmonize Paul later. And I
[15:43] got so angry and triggered because I was
[15:45] newly married and my wife is sitting
[15:46] next to me like this this can't be
[15:48] right. Like this isn't what God wants.
[15:50] And I'm like, don't worry, babe. Like
[15:51] I'll find some other verse from Paul to
[15:52] dismiss this Paul verse away with, which
[15:54] is what we like to do in church, right?
[15:56] And I dug through the Pauline epistles
[15:58] looking for any like positive thing I
[16:01] could find that Paul says about women
[16:02] that I could use to say, oh, you're just
[16:04] taking 2 Timothy there out of context
[16:06] cuz over here in 1 Corinthians, Paul
[16:07] says great things about women.
[16:09] And uh the cherry-picking strategy that
[16:12] normally works didn't work and it made
[16:14] me more frustrated and kind of angry at
[16:16] God. Like why would you put such
[16:18] misogyny in your Bible? Now I have to
[16:20] believe and teach this. Like I know this
[16:22] isn't you.
[16:23] And as I'm rifling through Paul, I'm
[16:25] starting to for the first time in my
[16:26] Christian life see
[16:28] the problems with Paul.
[16:30] I'm seeing the narcissism. I'm seeing
[16:32] like this guy literally never stops
[16:34] talking about himself.
[16:36] And I'm seeing some of the like, you
[16:37] know, weird slights against the apostles
[16:39] and I'm just going why why is why is
[16:41] everyone focused on Paul so much and not
[16:43] Jesus? And began the journey of
[16:46] realizing that Paul definitely corrupted
[16:48] the Jesus movement. And it took me a
[16:50] long time after that to really come to
[16:52] that full conclusion. But I just that
[16:53] was enough for me to be like I I don't
[16:55] resonate with this. I'm out of here.
[16:57] So like one thing that happened for sure
[16:59] that I think spurred um
[17:02] this movement online with the whole Paul
[17:04] movement we're seeing is these big
[17:07] content creators picking up this
[17:09] message. And there's a bunch we could
[17:11] name but like I think the biggest one
[17:13] would be K. Poji.
[17:15] And I did I want to say I did a reaction
[17:17] video in like April or something of this
[17:20] year.
[17:21] And she had done this classic defense of
[17:23] Paul. You know, she used 2 Peter 3:16
[17:25] that we're going to talk about today.
[17:27] And I did a reaction video and just went
[17:29] through and kindly refuted all these
[17:31] points of like well here's what we say
[17:32] about that and why we don't accept that
[17:34] as a valid defense of Paul.
[17:36] And there was no response. But uh to K's
[17:38] credit, she messaged me
[17:40] a month or two later and basically said
[17:42] hey like you know, I watched your video
[17:44] and some of the things you said about
[17:45] Paul were like making sense and I
[17:47] started looking further into it and
[17:48] here's all this other stuff I found.
[17:50] And she starts presenting me with other
[17:52] Paul arguments that I never even thought
[17:54] of. And you know, K has a as a really
[17:56] unique mind for doing research. A lot
[17:58] like Cam in my opinion. Like just a nose
[18:00] for finding good you know, threads. And
[18:03] she's just as we know like exploded in
[18:06] on social media talking about this.
[18:08] >> I mean props to her. It takes a really
[18:10] courageous soul to
[18:12] maybe promoting one perspective and then
[18:15] to
[18:16] >> Flip.
[18:16] >> to flip to re-evaluate and look at the
[18:19] facts and flip.
[18:20] To me that's uh a really beautiful
[18:22] thing.
[18:23] >> I can count on one hand creators I can
[18:26] think of who've ever done that with
[18:27] anything. You know, usually it's
[18:28] carnivores or vegans or whatever. But
[18:30] this was the first one of like a
[18:31] Christian influencer who went full
[18:34] anti-Paul and she's only seen, you know,
[18:36] growth and resurgence from it. So yeah,
[18:39] we wanted to play a quick clip from Joe
[18:41] Rogan talking about this because to us,
[18:43] this was like the big moment of like,
[18:45] whoa.
[18:47] This conversation has arrived, my
[18:49] friends, because now we have the premier
[18:51] podcaster on planet Earth saying all the
[18:53] things we've been saying about Paul on
[18:55] this podcast and you've been saying
[18:57] David for a long time. And it was just
[18:59] for me, it was kind of surreal to listen
[19:00] to Joe Rogan talking to, you know, top
[19:03] prominent scholar Dan McClellan about
[19:05] this.
[19:06] >> And David hasn't seen this clip yet, so
[19:08] it'll be cool to get his live reaction.
[19:10] >> Yeah, this will be fun.
[19:12] >> More it just gives you pause. Like Paul
[19:14] was really kind of the creator of
[19:16] Christianity because he never met Jesus.
[19:19] So Jesus never spoke to him and Jesus
[19:20] never wrote anything down.
[19:22] And so when Paul has this vision, when
[19:25] he's on the road to Damascus and he has
[19:26] this, whatever it is, some spiritual
[19:28] encounter that he says he met Jesus,
[19:30] like we're taking the the entire
[19:33] religion is based on this guy saying I
[19:35] think he said all these things 20 years
[19:37] after he said them, but no one wrote it
[19:38] down and I never met him.
[19:39] >> Yeah.
[19:40] >> So it's really Paul.
[19:43] >> Yes and no. Um it it was two people. It
[19:46] was Jesus and there was Paul. Yes, Paul
[19:48] was a great organizer. Jesus of those
[19:50] various other rival Messiahs. Um Jesus
[19:53] had some advantages with his message. It
[19:55] was a universal message. It was not
[19:57] directed just to the Romans. It was not
[19:59] directed just to men. It was it was
[20:02] aimed aimed at everybody. Um so
[20:06] of the candidate Messiahs then, um Jesus
[20:08] had a particularly good message. Um but
[20:11] it took good messages aren't enough. It
[20:12] took Saint Paul as as the organizer.
[20:15] >> Yeah, but it's fascinating that Paul
[20:17] never met him and that Jesus never wrote
[20:19] anything down. So when Paul's talking
[20:20] about this, this is literally just from
[20:22] verbal history.
[20:23] >> Right.
[20:23] >> Which is really strange. An oral history
[20:26] that it takes 20 years before this guy
[20:28] says this is what Jesus said, and then
[20:30] we all go on that.
[20:32] >> Right. The the what's thought to be the
[20:34] first of the Gospels, um um Gospel
[20:36] according to Mark, um is estimated to
[20:39] have been written down something like 20
[20:41] years after the death of Jesus. So we we
[20:44] have have no
[20:46] first-person accounts of of Jesus.
[20:48] >> It would be really nice if he wrote
[20:49] things down.
[20:50] >> Um it would have [laughter] made things
[20:51] more certain. In the case in the case of
[20:53] Muhammad, um it was two centuries before
[20:56] things got written down. So we we know
[20:58] even less about Muhammad than we do
[21:00] about Jesus.
[21:02] >> So this actually wasn't the clip I was
[21:03] thinking of. I thought this was the Dan
[21:05] McClellan clip. I'm pretty sure he
[21:06] brings Paul up again on Dan McClellan,
[21:08] but suffice to say here he is basically
[21:10] making all the same arguments we make.
[21:12] Uh what are your thoughts, David?
[21:16] >> Yeah, I I think he raises some good
[21:17] points and
[21:19] and really so
[21:22] kind of to to segue from from these
[21:24] questions and the way that we've put all
[21:27] of our faith and all of our trust into
[21:30] Paul,
[21:31] this actually plays back into what we
[21:32] were discussing before the clip, which
[21:34] is why do people get so upset about
[21:36] Paul?
[21:37] It's because if
[21:40] if you're a member of a
[21:42] religion that bases
[21:45] your
[21:46] reasoning for salvation solely upon what
[21:48] you believe, it's just based upon what's
[21:50] up in here. It has nothing to do with
[21:52] what you do, your works, the way you
[21:54] live your life. It's just thinking the
[21:56] right things and having faith in those
[21:57] things.
[21:59] Well, if you find out
[22:01] that the things that you base that faith
[22:03] on
[22:04] were weren't true, didn't happen,
[22:08] then where is your salvation?
[22:11] You have no salvation. Now,
[22:13] Yeshua, Jesus, he taught salvation
[22:16] through works.
[22:18] So if your doctrines change,
[22:22] your works don't disappear. Like we all
[22:24] know what's what we should do, like
[22:27] do charitable works, love your neighbor,
[22:30] you know, help the old lady down the
[22:31] street that needs her yard mode or
[22:34] or somebody needs some help paying for
[22:36] the groceries in the grocery store, help
[22:37] them out. Whatever you got to do to to
[22:39] be
[22:40] that shining light in the world, those
[22:43] works never go away.
[22:46] But
[22:47] you know, if you're
[22:48] if your doctrine changes or you realize
[22:49] that you bought into a lie, then that
[22:51] salvation that you were counting on it
[22:53] just evaporates.
[22:55] >> Yeah.
[22:56] Yeah, exactly. And back to the ego
[22:58] conversation,
[23:00] I teach about this full-time in 40
[23:02] University of how to how to transcend
[23:04] ego, which I believe is the essential
[23:06] crux of Jesus's gospel. Deny thyself,
[23:09] take up the cross and follow me, follow
[23:11] the Christ.
[23:12] Uh Course in Miracles talks about how
[23:14] the ego and the Christ are at eternal
[23:16] odds with each other cuz the ego is
[23:17] pride. And
[23:20] if if your if your salvation is
[23:22] dependent on thoughts you think and
[23:24] believe in in your brain,
[23:25] it's like, okay, what do we know for
[23:26] sure the ego is involved in? Your
[23:28] thoughts. That's where the ego lives,
[23:30] like you said, David, it's up here.
[23:32] And where do we know for sure the ego
[23:34] isn't genuine good works of service to
[23:37] others? Ego has no interest in service
[23:39] to others. It's fully service to self.
[23:42] So if we're predicating salvation on
[23:44] what thoughts I believe in my brain,
[23:46] we're basically giving salvation
[23:47] completely over to the ego. And if we
[23:49] don't predicate it on good works, we're
[23:52] we're taking it away from the one true
[23:54] measuring stick, as you said, that you
[23:57] can actually quantify in real time. It's
[23:59] like, is this a righteous person who
[24:01] does good works or not? You can
[24:03] basically know the answer if you know
[24:04] the person, right? Does this person
[24:06] really believe Jesus died for my sins
[24:08] and rose on the third day, blah blah
[24:09] blah?
[24:10] I can't possibly know if someone
[24:11] believes that. They can say they believe
[24:13] it, but how do I know they're not just
[24:14] afraid of burning in hell or something?
[24:16] >> Yeah.
[24:16] >> So this is the big problem with the Paul
[24:18] conversation that it's not like we bring
[24:20] this up on this podcast so much cuz we
[24:22] just love to bash on Paul. We do it
[24:24] because it is central to this Jesus Way
[24:26] message that when 99% of on earth talk
[24:30] about Jesus,
[24:32] they are really referring to Paul in
[24:34] their mind. They're they're referring to
[24:35] the private Jesus of Paul's private
[24:37] visions, which as we can point out, was
[24:40] markedly different than the historical
[24:42] Jesus. And so that is a robbery of the
[24:46] true Jesus message, the true gospel that
[24:48] Jesus came to preach. And if we say we
[24:51] follow Jesus, he says, my sheep know my
[24:53] voice, the voice of another they will
[24:55] not follow.
[24:56] It's like, well, hey, guess what? Paul's
[24:57] literally the voice of another. And so
[25:00] we don't have to hate Paul or judge
[25:02] Paul. We can just say, ah, he's the
[25:04] voice of another. I'm just going to air
[25:05] on Jesus. It's not like we don't have a
[25:07] pretty hefty amount of Jesus's
[25:09] teachings, you know, chronicled and
[25:11] written down by, you know, early
[25:13] writers. We have a good amount of his
[25:15] gospel teachings that we can hang our
[25:16] hats on. And so our big argument here is
[25:18] like, why do we need anybody else when
[25:20] we already have the teachings of the
[25:23] master himself?
[25:24] >> Mhm.
[25:25] And let's consider how much the world
[25:28] would change
[25:29] if people,
[25:31] you know, billions of people suddenly
[25:33] understand
[25:34] that salvation is through good works.
[25:38] >> Mhm.
[25:39] >> It's not through mental ascent. It's
[25:40] through good works. The world would
[25:42] transform.
[25:43] >> Oh, man.
[25:44] >> It would absolutely transform if people
[25:45] are working diligently every day to help
[25:48] their neighbor,
[25:49] to tell the truth, to live an honorable
[25:51] life, how much will the world change?
[25:54] And and that's that's the will of the
[25:56] Father. The will will of the Father is
[25:58] for all of us to be uplifted, right?
[26:00] >> 100%
[26:02] Yeah, I mean, how could you
[26:05] bring a kingdom on the earth if
[26:07] you don't do the works of the kingdom?
[26:10] It's like Yeshua said, the kingdom of
[26:12] heaven's not going to come by you
[26:14] looking for it. It's it's kind of like
[26:17] how's that any different than than
[26:18] thinking about it or just having faith
[26:20] up here and not having faith in action?
[26:23] And
[26:24] so you know, when you think of it in
[26:25] that in those terms, works should be
[26:28] just common sense, a requirement
[26:32] to do
[26:33] what it was that Yeshua came to do.
[26:36] >> Yeah, that's that's another, you know,
[26:38] kind of straw man response you'll hear
[26:39] is like,
[26:41] Oh, you you think faith is bad and works
[26:42] are good? No, no, no, not at all. Faith
[26:44] is a total prerequisite to good works.
[26:47] We're just saying that you can't measure
[26:49] faith in any objective sense, but we
[26:52] know for sure that if you do have real
[26:54] faith in God, faith in Christ, then that
[26:57] faith will produce good works. This is
[26:59] what James said. This is what Jesus
[27:00] himself said. And so we have to measure
[27:03] real faith by the only thing we can
[27:05] actually measure by, which is how you
[27:07] live your life. The only way to know
[27:09] what someone believes is how they live
[27:10] their life, period.
[27:11] >> Yeah. And this is a really important
[27:13] distinction I want to ask David about.
[27:15] How is a Nazarene understanding of
[27:18] faith,
[27:19] different than a Pauline understanding?
[27:21] Because this really gets to the crux of
[27:23] this entire premise as well.
[27:27] >> Well,
[27:29] [clears throat]
[27:29] I think
[27:31] for one, Paul kind of he separates faith
[27:34] and works into these two different
[27:35] categories.
[27:37] And in some ways, he pits one against
[27:39] the other.
[27:40] Someone in a Nazarene faith or a
[27:43] Nazarene understanding would never do
[27:46] that. The the two of them go together.
[27:48] It's not that you can have one or the
[27:50] other or separate the two.
[27:52] It's it's the same way with belief.
[27:55] If you say that you believe that Yeshua
[27:59] is the Messiah,
[28:01] he is the king, he is the savior,
[28:04] then that belief will will be seen in
[28:07] obedience and submission and in in
[28:10] walking the way that he walked.
[28:13] You're not separating belief and works.
[28:16] You can't separate faith and works. They
[28:18] they go together.
[28:20] They're one and the same.
[28:21] >> Yep. Yeah, that's the argument is they
[28:23] they always have to go together.
[28:25] I look at it as like cause and effect.
[28:28] Faith is the cause of good works. Works
[28:30] are the effect of true faith. And so if
[28:32] we know that you can never have faith
[28:34] without good works, then all we have to
[28:36] do is measure good works. If you're not
[28:38] doing good works, you don't have faith.
[28:39] Sorry, it doesn't matter what you say.
[28:41] >> Yeah, and it's also a completely
[28:43] different definition of what faith is in
[28:45] the sense that in Pauline Christianity,
[28:47] faith is like believing in the blood
[28:51] sacrifice. That that was the atonement
[28:54] for sin, right? Or there's penal
[28:56] substitution, there's Christus Victor
[28:58] and Eastern Orthodox, but it's a very
[29:00] different conception of of faith.
[29:03] It's like I don't think the ancient
[29:05] ascenes would consider
[29:07] would think about faith like that at
[29:08] all. I think they would
[29:10] uh
[29:11] more see it as a a covenant with the
[29:14] creator and a a conviction in the
[29:17] goodness of the creator and the laws of
[29:19] the creator and a yoke to that
[29:21] >> Right.
[29:22] >> as opposed to like a
[29:23] blood I mean, maybe the the Pharisees
[29:25] and Sadducees their faith was more blood
[29:27] sacrifice
[29:29] connected.
[29:30] >> It's true. Yeah, I mean, it's if I have
[29:32] to believe in an event that took place
[29:34] thousands of years before I was born,
[29:36] I'm sorry, that's not what real faith
[29:38] is.
[29:39] Uh you've done lots of videos on this,
[29:41] David, and we've talked about this on
[29:42] this podcast. The Greek word pisteu, and
[29:45] you know, Jesus didn't teach in Greek,
[29:46] but it's the primary Greek word. Uh
[29:48] pisteu means to trust in, to commit
[29:51] oneself to, to obey.
[29:54] And that lines up with the gospel of
[29:56] Jesus of why do you call me Lord and not
[29:58] do what I say?
[30:00] And so let's go ahead and pivot now into
[30:02] the second Peter 3:16 conversation
[30:04] because if you guys have talked about
[30:06] this on your social media or been on
[30:08] ours, anywhere you see the Paul
[30:10] conversation on anyone's page right now,
[30:12] you're going to see just a absolute
[30:15] spamming in the comments of what Peter
[30:17] approved of Paul, second Peter 3:16.
[30:20] And
[30:21] this is very problematic for a number of
[30:23] reasons. Um for me, David, I've always
[30:25] taken the approach of you know, the
[30:27] textual critic approach of like, well,
[30:29] second Peter is a known forgery from the
[30:31] second century that no scholar alive
[30:34] thinks Peter wrote. And so we can't just
[30:36] say, well, this is what Peter thought
[30:37] about Paul when we know that. But
[30:40] watching your content over the last few
[30:42] years, I started to see you actually
[30:44] unpacking
[30:45] the language and the Greek behind this
[30:47] passage and showing that even the way
[30:49] that it's worded is a total
[30:51] misunderstanding of what uh the
[30:53] pseudonymous author here is actually
[30:55] trying to put in Peter's mouth. It's not
[30:57] actually the compliment that Christians
[30:59] think that it is. Um so if you want to
[31:01] kick us off and kind of go into your
[31:03] research on that, we'd love to have you
[31:04] take us through it.
[31:06] >> Okay.
[31:08] Um yeah, so
[31:11] and and I and I do have the same
[31:12] understanding that you do, that it is a
[31:15] pseudepigraph pseudepigraph work. It's
[31:18] not anything that Peter wrote.
[31:20] It was probably written
[31:22] maybe even 100 years after Peter died.
[31:26] But when it comes to
[31:29] putting out content on YouTube, just
[31:31] telling someone who brings up this
[31:35] passage that, oh, that's not really
[31:36] Peter, that that really doesn't you
[31:39] know, sway their opinion and it doesn't.
[31:40] It it makes it look like you're avoiding
[31:42] the argument when in reality you're
[31:44] trying to tell them the truth.
[31:46] >> Right.
[31:47] >> But even if we even if we take that for
[31:49] granted and we just say, okay, let's
[31:50] just assume that it was Peter that wrote
[31:52] it,
[31:53] when you get into it and you actually
[31:54] look at what's being said, it's not
[31:56] quite as clear-cut as
[31:59] some people like to think that it is.
[32:03] So here's the the passage in question, 2
[32:06] Peter uh we start at 3:15.
[32:08] And count the patience of our Lord of
[32:11] salvation just as our beloved brother
[32:13] Paul also wrote to you according to the
[32:15] wisdom given to him,
[32:18] as he does in all his letters when he
[32:19] speaks of them in these matters.
[32:22] There are some things in them that are
[32:24] hard to understand which the ignorant
[32:26] and unstable twist to their own
[32:27] destruction
[32:29] as they do the other scriptures.
[32:31] You therefore, beloved, knowing this
[32:33] beforehand, take care that you are not
[32:35] carried away with the error of lawless
[32:37] people and lose your own stability.
[32:40] So, there's a few elements in this that
[32:43] people like to point to. Um, first is
[32:46] Peter calling Paul a brother. Um, saying
[32:49] that he
[32:51] often they say well
[32:53] he's saying that God gave him wisdom and
[32:55] it's like well that's not really what it
[32:56] says. It says according to the wisdom
[32:58] given him, but it doesn't say from whom.
[33:01] Um,
[33:02] he writes in all these letters uh these
[33:04] things that are hard to understand.
[33:07] And so because they're hard to
[33:08] understand, the ignorant and unstable
[33:12] twist it to their own destruction. So,
[33:13] it's the fault of the ignorant.
[33:17] And this says as they do with the other
[33:18] scriptures, so they say oh well Paul
[33:21] Peter considered Paul's writings to be
[33:23] scripture.
[33:24] So, we can look at these various
[33:27] um presumptions that are made that they
[33:30] use to try and make the case that
[33:32] that Paul is being given some type of
[33:35] certification by Peter in these
[33:37] passages.
[33:40] So, we're going to start off with um
[33:44] the issue of him calling Paul a brother.
[33:48] Uh, there's a early Syriac Christian
[33:53] um I guess you could call it a like a
[33:56] devotional. It's a it's a document. It's
[33:59] got uh 20 parts or 20 tracts within it.
[34:04] And it's it's basically
[34:07] um written to encourage believers on how
[34:11] to live their lives, to uh
[34:13] convict them of places they need to work
[34:16] on and just basically it's like a um
[34:21] it's almost like a theological statement
[34:24] of morality.
[34:26] And
[34:27] in the Liber Graduum in Memra 13
[34:31] it says that um
[34:34] uprightness, the upright are not
[34:36] permitted to call a person by another
[34:38] name
[34:40] or to grieve him or call him something
[34:43] like a fool or contemptible or stupid or
[34:45] spiteful.
[34:46] For if it is able to give him honorable
[34:49] names, it does so. Yet if not, does not
[34:53] give him insulting insulting names, but
[34:55] calls the person simply by his regular
[34:57] name.
[34:59] So in other words, if you're a believer
[35:02] and you're upright, you shouldn't call
[35:04] people slanderous names. And if you if
[35:07] you can't call them anything else, just
[35:09] call them by their regular name.
[35:12] And then it goes on. It says it's not
[35:15] right
[35:16] for one who possesses the love of
[35:18] uprightness to give disreputable names
[35:21] to people, but he should call them
[35:23] honorable ones, my lord, my my mistress,
[35:27] or
[35:28] an older people, my father or my mother,
[35:31] and his neighbors, my brother and my
[35:34] sister, and the younger ones, my son and
[35:37] my daughter. If they do not like to
[35:39] refer to everyone in this way and become
[35:42] upright ones, they should call a person
[35:44] by his regular name,
[35:46] but not give him hateful names and
[35:47] grieve him so and so sin. For the evil
[35:51] one teaches people to call one another
[35:53] names.
[35:54] >> Mhm.
[35:55] >> So here we see an early Christian
[35:58] document.
[35:59] It's written in Syriac, which is
[36:01] essentially Aramaic
[36:03] with the Syriac font.
[36:05] So it's the same language that Yeshua
[36:08] and his apostles taught.
[36:11] And in this document it says that if
[36:13] someone is your enemy or your adversary,
[36:16] you just call them your brother.
[36:18] >> Wow.
[36:19] >> Which is exactly what Peter refers to
[36:21] Paul as.
[36:23] Furthermore, we actually have this
[36:25] example from Yeshua.
[36:27] In Matthew 26:48 through 50,
[36:32] this is where Judas is bringing the
[36:33] soldiers to take Yeshua into custody,
[36:36] which eventually leads to his
[36:38] crucifixion.
[36:40] And what does Yeshua say to Judas?
[36:43] He calls him friend. He says, friend,
[36:44] why are you here?
[36:46] So literally, right after Judas betrays
[36:49] Jesus with a kiss,
[36:51] Jesus doesn't call him
[36:53] an enemy
[36:55] or you know,
[36:56] any other type of disrespectful name. He
[36:58] calls him a friend. And if Yeshua can
[37:01] call him a friend
[37:03] and it's not a meaning that they are
[37:04] somehow in alignment because obviously
[37:07] they were not at that moment,
[37:09] then why does it mean something if Peter
[37:12] calls Paul a brother?
[37:14] >> Yeah.
[37:15] Yeah, that that argument always does
[37:17] like agitate me a little bit because
[37:19] it's like
[37:20] do you really think that just calling
[37:22] someone a brother means I agree with
[37:24] everything they think and teach and
[37:25] believe?
[37:27] In no way does that imply that.
[37:29] >> I've watched debates where they're
[37:31] debating and they'll be like, brother,
[37:32] brother. Like and they're literally
[37:34] going at each other.
[37:35] >> It's just a way to show goodwill.
[37:36] >> Yeah.
[37:37] >> Yeah.
[37:38] >> Yeah, I mean it's almost like if
[37:41] if you shake hands with someone then
[37:43] that means that you approve of
[37:44] everything they say.
[37:45] >> Exactly. The right hand of fellowship.
[37:48] >> Right. Yeah.
[37:49] Shook me He shook my hand one time so
[37:51] now I'm a certified apostle to
[37:53] >> Yeah.
[37:54] >> corrupt the doctrines however I want to.
[37:59] Uh also on this according to the wisdom
[38:02] given him,
[38:04] uh this I think is referring to just
[38:06] Paul's claims of wisdom,
[38:08] um which is
[38:11] brought up in in places like here in 1
[38:12] Corinthians 2:6 and 2:7
[38:16] um where he speaks about this this
[38:18] wisdom. He He has this knowledge, this
[38:20] secret and hidden wisdom of God which he
[38:23] calls the deep things of God.
[38:25] >> Gnosis.
[38:26] >> Yeah.
[38:27] >> Yep.
[38:28] And then Yeshua refers to someone
[38:31] teaching that it's okay to eat meat
[38:32] sacrificed to idols
[38:34] and he calls that the deep things of
[38:35] Satan. So
[38:37] I think
[38:38] yeah,
[38:39] I don't think Jesus really saw them as
[38:41] the deep things of God, this wisdom that
[38:44] Paul got from somewhere.
[38:45] >> Well, we know Paul did love
[38:47] >> a good meat sacrifice to an idol.
[38:49] >> Yeah, we know that.
[38:52] Uh next, uh this word hard to understand
[38:54] is uh
[38:57] And it's a it's a compound word. It's
[38:59] got a prefix of dis and then the root is
[39:02] noetos. Noetos means
[39:05] um good sense or uh good reasoning.
[39:10] But this prefix dis is I wanted to kind
[39:13] of touch on it for a minute.
[39:16] The
[39:17] the passage in 2 Peter 3:16 where it
[39:20] says hard to understand,
[39:22] the understand comes from the noetos.
[39:24] The dis is what is being translated as
[39:26] hard to.
[39:29] [clears throat] So the question is does
[39:30] dis really mean
[39:32] hard to or does it mean something else?
[39:35] So we use this actually in the English
[39:37] word dystopian.
[39:39] There's dystopian and utopian.
[39:42] And so utopian is like a place that's a
[39:44] paradise.
[39:46] Um topia is a
[39:49] um is a place.
[39:51] So
[39:52] dystopia is it
[39:55] a hard to place?
[39:56] Is it a place that's hard to get to or
[39:59] [laughter] I mean or is it a place
[40:02] that's had all the good stuff
[40:05] stripped away from it and all that's
[40:07] left is is terrible things?
[40:10] >> Yeah.
[40:12] >> So like you know when we talk about
[40:14] dystopia, no one says it's a hard to get
[40:16] to place. It's a a place that's just
[40:20] awful.
[40:20] >> Destroyed place.
[40:21] >> Dysfunction.
[40:23] >> Right.
[40:23] >> Right.
[40:25] Exactly.
[40:28] So here is a
[40:30] entry for dis. It's from a Greek-English
[40:34] lexicon by Liddell and Scott from 1863.
[40:38] And it says that one of the meanings of
[40:40] dis is destroying the good sense of a
[40:43] word or destroying the good sense of the
[40:45] root word. So
[40:47] in the in the case of dystopian,
[40:50] topian is place or topia.
[40:53] So does it mean destroying the good
[40:56] sense of a place? Yes. You know, and if
[40:59] you've ever watched a dystopian movie,
[41:01] you you know what that is.
[41:02] >> Mhm.
[41:04] >> So the same thing with noetos.
[41:07] If you're going to to destroy the good
[41:09] sense of understanding,
[41:11] what would that be?
[41:13] It would be like
[41:15] um believing something that's wrong
[41:17] that's going to destroy your
[41:18] understanding or
[41:20] believing something nonsensical or
[41:22] foolish.
[41:24] These are all things that would fit much
[41:27] more closely to the constructed meaning
[41:29] of this noetos.
[41:32] >> Mhm. Yeah, it's very like common
[41:34] vernacular, at least in English, to say
[41:36] like all that's a dystopian nightmare.
[41:39] You always hear those two words married
[41:41] or you'll hear that's that's some
[41:43] utopian dream.
[41:44] >> Mhm.
[41:45] >> you get those two opposites. It's like
[41:46] they're they're clear polarities to each
[41:47] other, right?
[41:49] >> Yeah.
[41:49] >> Right.
[41:51] So this word uh this noetos is actually
[41:54] used by Lucian
[41:56] in his uh I guess you would call it an
[41:58] essay, but it's it's about Alexander the
[42:00] False Prophet. And it's actually the
[42:02] exact same context that Peter's using.
[42:06] Peter is is referring to
[42:09] written words that are disno or yeah
[42:12] disnoetos.
[42:14] And that's exactly what Lucian is
[42:16] talking about. He he wrote a letter to
[42:18] Alexander. Alexander wrote back a
[42:20] response and he said that
[42:23] um his response
[42:26] uh had no connection with earth or with
[42:29] heaven, but were silly and nonsensical
[42:33] everyone.
[42:35] So the English translator of disnoetos
[42:38] in Alexander the first False Prophet
[42:42] translates disnoetos not as hard to
[42:44] understand, but as nonsensical.
[42:48] Which is a much more accurate
[42:51] description of this
[42:53] word, which is supposed to mean
[42:55] destructive to understanding.
[42:57] >> Mm.
[42:57] >> If you believe something that's
[42:58] nonsensical,
[43:00] that's going to destroy your
[43:01] understanding because you're putting
[43:02] your faith in something that's not true.
[43:04] >> Yeah. It makes more sense.
[43:08] >> And it totally sums up what we're
[43:09] saying.
[43:10] >> Mm-hmm.
[43:10] >> Paul's gospel is
[43:12] to Jesus's gospel.
[43:14] >> Yeah.
[43:15] Yeah, and like even the following
[43:16] context that it supplies in 2 Peter 3:16
[43:19] is like which the unstable and ignorant
[43:22] twist to their own destruction, right?
[43:24] It's already implying like this is a
[43:26] destructive doctrine. Like good luck
[43:28] twisting Jesus's gospel teachings to
[43:30] your own destruction.
[43:32] I don't know even how you could do that.
[43:35] >> Yeah, I mean Yeshua, his his doctrines
[43:38] are never hard to understand. They're
[43:39] very clear.
[43:40] >> Childlike.
[43:42] >> Mhm.
[43:44] One other thing I want to bring up is
[43:46] Calvin's commentaries.
[43:48] You know, Calvin is um he he rejected 2
[43:52] Peter. He didn't like it.
[43:54] And one of the reasons he
[43:56] Yeah, one of the reasons he disliked it
[43:57] was because of what is actually said in
[44:00] 2 Peter 3:16.
[44:03] So the the the portion on the screen,
[44:05] this is from 2 Peter 3:16 in his
[44:07] commentaries, and he says, and yet
[44:10] when I examine all things more narrowly,
[44:12] it seems to me more
[44:14] probable that this epistle was composed
[44:16] by another according to what Peter
[44:19] communicated
[44:21] then that it was written by himself. For
[44:23] Peter himself
[44:25] would have never spoken thus. He would
[44:28] have never spoken this way about Paul.
[44:31] So Calvin wanted to reject the epistle
[44:34] outright
[44:35] because he didn't believe Peter had
[44:37] written it because of what was said
[44:38] about Paul in it.
[44:39] >> Wow.
[44:41] And he's essentially the founder of
[44:42] modern-day Protestantism.
[44:44] >> Mhm.
[44:46] He he definitely knew what it said. He
[44:48] knew the meaning of
[44:50] >> Mm.
[44:51] Wow.
[44:53] >> Uh the other argument they I use is that
[44:55] Peter calls
[44:56] Paul's letter scripture.
[44:59] Well, the word the problem is the word
[45:00] for scripture is graphe and graphe just
[45:03] means writing. It doesn't mean
[45:04] scriptures.
[45:06] >> Yeah, see these English translations
[45:08] just go to such liberties to translate
[45:11] things the way that fits their
[45:12] theological beliefs. And when you unpack
[45:15] the the Greek like this, a lot of times
[45:17] you're like, this is just a complete
[45:19] uh dismemberment of what the passage is
[45:21] really saying, you know?
[45:25] >> Yeah, then they a lot of the times when
[45:27] they translate things in certain ways,
[45:29] it
[45:30] it's seems pretty obvious that they're
[45:32] trying to do it to protect Paul's
[45:33] doctrine.
[45:34] >> It's a narrative.
[45:35] They're protecting a narrative.
[45:37] >> Yeah, you really never see it go the
[45:38] other way. You never see a translation
[45:40] that like favors Jesus's teachings and
[45:42] against Paul. It's always one direction.
[45:44] >> always talks about how it always favors
[45:47] the anti
[45:49] or the pro sacrifice position or pro
[45:52] flesh
[45:54] consumption.
[45:54] >> Yep.
[45:55] >> Yeah.
[45:56] >> Yeah.
[45:56] >> It's all Pauline as well.
[45:57] >> Yep.
[45:58] >> And one other point I want to make is at
[46:00] the end of this so-called endorsement of
[46:03] Paul,
[46:04] Peter says, you therefore, beloved,
[46:06] knowing this beforehand, take care that
[46:08] you're not carried away with the error
[46:10] of lawless people
[46:12] and lose your own stability.
[46:14] Now, when I read that, knowing this
[46:16] beforehand, it reminds me
[46:19] of Matthew 24:25 where
[46:22] Yeshua says, behold, I have told you
[46:25] beforehand.
[46:26] So, in this warning
[46:28] where Yeshua is is telling people
[46:30] beforehand, warning them about
[46:32] a lawless person,
[46:34] the very next sentence he says, if
[46:36] therefore they tell you, behold, he's in
[46:38] the wilderness, don't go out, or behold,
[46:41] he's in the inner rooms, don't believe
[46:42] it.
[46:44] These are the two places that Paul
[46:46] claimed to have seen
[46:49] Jesus was in the wilderness on the way
[46:50] to Damascus,
[46:52] and he says three different visions of
[46:54] him in inner rooms of different
[46:56] buildings he was in.
[46:59] So it's almost like the the author of
[47:01] Second Peter, whoever that was, whether
[47:03] it was Peter or somebody else,
[47:05] it's almost like they're leading you
[47:07] back to this passage in Matthew 24
[47:10] uh 25 through 26, which is a warning
[47:13] against Paul himself.
[47:16] So that's that's all I have for the
[47:17] slides.
[47:18] >> Oh, can we Can you go back to the full
[47:20] quote real quick?
[47:21] >> Yeah.
[47:22] >> Yeah.
[47:25] >> 3:16 you mean?
[47:26] >> 3:16 yeah.
[47:26] >> Yeah.
[47:29] >> This one?
[47:29] >> Yes.
[47:31] So the the hilarious thing about all of
[47:33] this is that Paul and Christians when
[47:36] they when they show us this endorsement,
[47:41] they're making it seem like or they
[47:43] believe that Peter is saying that people
[47:47] like us are the ignorant and unstable
[47:51] twisting this to our own destruction
[47:54] and that we're the lawless people who
[47:56] have lost our stability
[47:58] when the exact opposite is what is being
[48:00] communicated.
[48:03] >> Yeah, that's a projection. That's what
[48:04] they call that.
[48:05] >> Yeah.
[48:06] >> This is what you see in this topic is
[48:08] the projections. Like
[48:09] I I think it's so kind of funny or
[48:11] ironic how like
[48:14] whenever you see these comments, I'll
[48:16] actually show you. I I went on my page
[48:18] and just like for two minutes just
[48:19] grabbed some screenshots cuz there's so
[48:21] many Second Peter 3:16, you know, Peter
[48:24] approved of Paul.
[48:25] Um and they they hit you with it like
[48:27] they've just dropped the most
[48:29] devastating defeat
[48:30] >> You've never heard this one, have you?
[48:31] I'm about to rock your world, Buster.
[48:33] [laughter]
[48:33] >> Totally. It's like that Do you really
[48:35] think in all of our, you know,
[48:37] researching and teaching against Paul's
[48:39] gospel that we just we've never
[48:41] encountered Second Peter 3:16?
[48:43] And it is funny how you could even
[48:45] assume someone would think that cuz like
[48:46] we, you know, we do debates sometimes.
[48:48] You prepare for your opponent and if you
[48:50] don't want to get smoked in a debate,
[48:52] you have to prepare for your opponent
[48:54] like they're they know their stuff and
[48:56] they've done their research and you
[48:57] better assume they have really good
[48:59] arguments and counter arguments. So like
[49:01] it is the worst move you could ever make
[49:03] to just assume your opponent has like
[49:04] never read a Bible verse and you're just
[49:06] going to drop a Bible verse and win the
[49:08] debate.
[49:08] >> Yeah.
[49:09] >> But the reason they do that is because
[49:10] that's what they do, right? They don't
[49:12] really do their research. They don't
[49:14] really dig into these things. For the
[49:16] most part, they probably go to church,
[49:17] hear their pastors talk, they watch
[49:19] apologetic channels who just spoon feed
[49:21] them these things and they're like,
[49:22] yeah, yeah, we've got the answers on
[49:23] lockdown this I don't need to dig into
[49:24] this further.
[49:26] And I remember that apprehension to dig
[49:28] into things further when I was a
[49:29] Christian. I had a big aversion to that
[49:31] and that's actually how I found James
[49:33] Tabor's work was when I was looking into
[49:35] things and I came across um his book on
[49:37] um the Talpiot tomb
[49:39] and it's like you you find it especially
[49:41] in scholarship like
[49:43] completely different takes on these
[49:45] things than you're hearing in church and
[49:46] you you read it and you're like, oh man,
[49:48] that's like a top level academic PhD
[49:50] scholar saying that my pastor is wrong
[49:52] and so you just like, I don't really
[49:53] want to do too much research on this.
[49:55] I'm just going to trust my pastor's done
[49:56] his research on it. And so because
[49:58] that's what they typically do, they
[50:00] project that onto you like, oh you've
[50:01] probably never even read this verse
[50:03] before.
[50:04] But um yeah, when your salvation is at
[50:05] stake, it's it can be scary to do that
[50:08] kind of research. So I get it.
[50:11] >> Well, one other point I think we should
[50:13] make here is that
[50:15] the the warning and that's what it is,
[50:18] it's a warning. It's not an endorsement.
[50:20] But the way that it's written out
[50:24] um if the problem is that Paul's
[50:27] teachings contain nonsensical things
[50:30] and you have ignorant and unstable Now
[50:33] the word for unstable is unestablished.
[50:36] So you got ignorant and unestablished
[50:38] people.
[50:40] Well, who is a teacher supposed to
[50:42] teach?
[50:43] Don't teachers teach people that are
[50:46] unlearned and unestablished?
[50:48] So if
[50:50] Paul is teaching things, now it can't be
[50:52] the fault of the student.
[50:54] If if the teacher can't teach a student
[50:57] in a way where they're not sharing
[50:59] nonsensical concepts with them,
[51:02] then it the the burden is on the
[51:04] teacher, not the student.
[51:06] >> It's a great point.
[51:07] >> Yeah.
[51:07] >> Now, the way it's translated, it puts
[51:09] all the burden on the students to know
[51:11] better.
[51:13] >> Yeah.
[51:13] >> Um
[51:15] so so if
[51:16] if it's not
[51:18] the students twisting the scripture, but
[51:20] it's the scripture twisting the student,
[51:24] then
[51:25] when he says it the twists the students
[51:27] as well as the other writings or the
[51:30] other scriptures,
[51:32] then
[51:33] it's almost like he's saying that that
[51:35] the nonsensical things don't only twist
[51:37] the unlearned and unestablished,
[51:39] it also twists the other scriptures. And
[51:41] that's what we see Paul doing.
[51:43] >> Wow.
[51:43] >> He's constantly quoting scriptures out
[51:45] of context and misquoting them and
[51:48] uh you know, twisting them to fit
[51:50] whatever he's trying to prove.
[51:52] Like he'll take a scripture that says
[51:54] the opposite
[51:55] of what he's saying, but he'll present
[51:57] it as if it's in alignment with what
[51:59] he's saying.
[52:00] >> Yeah.
[52:02] Yeah, and I feel like a lot of that has
[52:03] to do probably with the fact that
[52:05] illiteracy was so high in his day and
[52:08] age. Very few people could actually
[52:10] pick up the scriptures and read it for
[52:11] themselves. And so if he's quoting the
[52:13] Septuagint or whatever, like he probably
[52:15] is aware that 90% or something like that
[52:18] of his audience isn't going to be able
[52:19] to fact-check him on how he's quoting
[52:21] that.
[52:22] And he's this like highly trained
[52:23] Pharisaical scholar, right? So he's
[52:26] they're probably just going to outsource
[52:27] to whatever Paul's saying.
[52:28] But uh Jesus said, you know a tree by
[52:30] its fruit.
[52:31] A good tree cannot produce bad fruit.
[52:34] And that's you know, going back to what
[52:36] we said, like Jesus's gospel teachings,
[52:38] good luck twisting love your neighbor as
[52:40] yourself to your own destruction.
[52:43] And like I guess in some conceivable
[52:45] insane reality, you could come up with a
[52:47] weird scenario someone could do that. I
[52:49] don't know. I sure can't think of a way.
[52:51] Um and so that's another evidence of
[52:52] like these teachings aren't based in
[52:54] truth if they can be so easily twisted.
[52:57] And
[52:57] like we all grew up in Christianity.
[52:59] Like we this is what we were born into
[53:01] and believed for so long. Why why would
[53:04] anyone assume that we just all the
[53:06] sudden woke up one day as devout
[53:07] Christians? I was a pastor, pastor son.
[53:10] just woke up one day and just decided to
[53:12] start twisting Paul's scriptures to my
[53:13] own destruction.
[53:15] But Paul was my guy. I loved Paul's
[53:16] letters before that. It doesn't make any
[53:18] sense. So like you're saying, David, it
[53:19] really is the case that it's Paul's
[53:21] letters that twist people's minds to
[53:23] destruction.
[53:24] >> Mhm.
[53:24] >> And this was this is the criticism you
[53:26] see from the, you know, Jewish Christian
[53:28] sources, Nazarene sources going back to
[53:30] the Clementines, that Paul's gospel,
[53:33] even if Paul didn't wasn't trying to
[53:35] teach this, this lawlessness, right?
[53:37] People say, well no, Paul was uh Paul
[53:39] said good things about the law. It's
[53:40] like no none of us are saying that Paul
[53:43] said don't do good works. Good works are
[53:44] bad. Only believe. That's a straw man.
[53:47] Of course Paul said good things about
[53:48] the law. The distinction is Paul said
[53:51] you can't be saved by good works and you
[53:53] can only be saved by faith in Christ in
[53:56] his blood sacrifice. Of course good
[53:58] works are good and the law is good and
[53:59] you should do that, but just know it
[54:00] can't save you. And that's the problem
[54:02] we point out because Jesus said exactly
[54:05] the opposite. He said only by good works
[54:07] do I know you're my disciple and by no
[54:09] other way can you enter my kingdom and
[54:11] do not call me Lord Lord and not do what
[54:13] I say. So that's where Paul diverts from
[54:15] Jesus and why the first Nazarene
[54:17] Christians were accusing Paul of, hey,
[54:20] your teachings are giving people,
[54:21] especially in the Gentile world, right?
[54:23] This license to sin. This this is the
[54:26] the condemnation you hear is this
[54:27] license to sin, license to sin because
[54:30] he's teaching this radically new new
[54:31] message that, hey, God has come along
[54:33] with the Messiah and abolished the
[54:34] Torah. You don't have to keep that moldy
[54:36] old law. It can't save you. Just believe
[54:39] and confess. And so you can understand
[54:41] how pagan Gentiles hearing that might
[54:43] go, oh, cool. Sounds like we can have
[54:45] some orgies tonight as long as we
[54:46] confess and believe.
[54:48] So it's like maybe Paul wasn't teaching
[54:49] you can have orgies, but like that's
[54:51] what his his teachings led to in the
[54:53] first century.
[54:55] >> Mhm.
[54:57] Yeah, we see evidence of that in Paul's
[54:59] own letters.
[55:00] >> Exactly. He's correcting all his
[55:02] churches left and right.
[55:03] >> Yeah.
[55:07] >> So I'm going to go through now the
[55:08] second argument against 3:16,
[55:12] which is just the scholarship behind the
[55:13] text itself, which I think is really
[55:15] interesting. I I'm a sucker for good
[55:17] scholarship on on uh you know the origin
[55:20] of ancient texts. It's it's a really fun
[55:21] subject, but just to quickly show you an
[55:24] example like these are some of the
[55:25] comments you'll see on my page, James,
[55:28] David, Cam, um this kind of like really
[55:31] intense confidence
[55:33] behind this passage. Um surely Peter
[55:36] would not have called him
[55:38] his beloved brother, all caps.
[55:41] >> Donk.
[55:42] >> And warned us not to twist his letters
[55:44] cuz they are hard to understand. Stop
[55:46] the lie.
[55:48] Peter basically said Paul's writings are
[55:49] scripture. That's actually an argument
[55:50] against 2 Peter. Um
[55:53] this dude's premise is outrageously
[55:54] false. You're so wrong. Apostle Peter
[55:56] loved Paul. Despicable nonsense. 2 Peter
[56:00] affirms Paul's writings as scripture. So
[56:02] you just it's the same thing again and
[56:03] again.
[56:04] >> Oh look, they say they add God in there,
[56:06] the wisdom wisdom given to him, but they
[56:08] say the wisdom that God gave him.
[56:10] >> Oh yeah, there we go.
[56:11] All caps. The wisdom that Paul said that
[56:13] God gave him. Yeah.
[56:15] It always goes back to the circular
[56:16] reasoning of Paul said.
[56:19] So this is the
[56:20] the primary evidence and scholarship for
[56:22] why 2 Peter is totally disputed and
[56:25] again unanimously considered a forgery
[56:27] from uh the mid to late 2nd century and
[56:30] some scholars even put it early 3rd
[56:31] century for reasons I'll show you here
[56:33] in a minute.
[56:34] Um but here's a quote from our good
[56:36] friend and uh Jesus Way Podcast guest
[56:38] Dr. James Tabor. I believe this is from
[56:40] Jesus and Paul. Could be wrong, but he
[56:43] says
[56:44] uh one to two, Peter is in fact a
[56:45] production of a 2nd century Pauline
[56:48] group, an obvious attempt to associate
[56:50] Peter's theology with that of Paul.
[56:53] So he's kind of taken the conventional
[56:54] Christian understanding of you know that
[56:56] passage in 2 Peter there.
[56:58] But uh the facts are it is the single
[57:00] most widely disputed book in the New
[57:01] Testament. Nothing else even comes close
[57:04] in terms of the scholarship. And I mean
[57:05] that's to me that's saying something
[57:07] because you have like the pastoral
[57:09] epistles for example, first and second
[57:11] Timothy and Titus and those are like,
[57:14] you know, just textbook dead ringer
[57:16] forgeries, but second Peter annihilates
[57:18] them in terms of the just the weight of
[57:20] evidence.
[57:21] Uh it's agreed upon by all the top
[57:23] scholars you'll find even from Bruce
[57:25] Metzger who's like a Presbyterian
[57:27] Christian scholar, he says it's a
[57:29] pseudonymous text. Of course Ehrman,
[57:31] Tabor, Kester and so many others.
[57:33] Uh the academic debate really only
[57:35] focuses on is it a pseudepigrapha or a
[57:38] forgery, but not there's no discussion
[57:40] on is this written was this written by
[57:42] Peter in any way?
[57:43] And for those of you don't know the
[57:45] exact distinction there, pseudepigrapha
[57:47] just means like
[57:48] it wasn't written by the author, it's
[57:50] penned under whatever, but it wasn't
[57:52] intended to deceive people. It just kind
[57:54] of gained uh this title as as time went
[57:57] on kind of like the the Gospels, right?
[57:59] They don't like the Gospel of Mark
[58:01] doesn't call itself Mark, but it later
[58:03] was added that name and title as well as
[58:06] Matthew and Luke and so forth.
[58:07] Whereas a forgery is a definite
[58:10] deliberate attempt to deceive the reader
[58:12] into thinking this is Peter, the
[58:14] right-hand man of Jesus saying this to
[58:16] you, right?
[58:18] So the first piece of evidence in the
[58:19] passage is this kind of curious part
[58:22] where
[58:23] the author talks about ever since the
[58:24] fathers fell asleep
[58:26] and really he means apostles here
[58:28] which is kind of kind of funny.
[58:30] Uh the the founding generation has died
[58:32] and the death is a scandal demanding an
[58:34] answer. So as with all these forgeries
[58:37] in the New Testament like the pastoral
[58:39] epistles and first and second Peter,
[58:41] they were they were written in the
[58:42] second century to address evolving
[58:45] problems in the early Gentile church
[58:47] such as hey, Paul was banging on about
[58:50] how Jesus is coming back, Jesus is
[58:52] coming back, don't get a wife, don't get
[58:53] a job, Jesus is coming back.
[58:55] Jesus hasn't come back and Paul's gone,
[58:57] the apostles are gone. You know, how do
[58:59] we uh how do we answer our critics on
[59:01] this?
[59:02] [snorts] So the promises failed that
[59:04] this generation would not pass away, you
[59:06] know, as Jesus says or is quoted as
[59:07] saying in Mark 13:30.
[59:09] Um Peter dies probably between 64 to 68,
[59:12] not even a full generation after the
[59:14] crucifixion.
[59:15] And so the author, the pseudonymous
[59:17] author of Second Peter, tries to solve
[59:18] the problem by saying, well, but a
[59:20] thousand years is like a day.
[59:24] So he concedes the delay and relocates
[59:26] the promise to God's cosmic calendar
[59:28] there.
[59:31] And then as we talked about kind of
[59:32] calling even calling Paul's letter
[59:34] scripture is very problematic for saying
[59:37] this is a text written by Peter in the
[59:39] first century
[59:41] because even the phrase all his letters,
[59:44] we know that there was no collected
[59:45] circulating corpus of Paul's letters
[59:48] until and this is like the absolute most
[59:51] generous possible dating where Ignatius
[59:54] kind of mentions one or two of the
[59:56] letters of Paul to his letter to the
[59:58] Corinthians. And this is I think this
[1:00:01] date is wrong actually. Secular scholars
[1:00:03] say this is probably between 140 around
[1:00:05] 1 140 but
[1:00:07] some scholars say this could be around
[1:00:08] 108. So that's even the first mention of
[1:00:11] like a Pauline letter outside of the New
[1:00:13] Testament canon.
[1:00:15] We know that Origin is the first one to
[1:00:18] talk about Second Peter itself, which is
[1:00:21] like 230 to 240 AD. So we're talking
[1:00:23] like mid third century.
[1:00:25] The only place in the New Testament
[1:00:28] where one New Testament writing calls
[1:00:30] another scripture is this passage.
[1:00:33] And we can get into Marcion and how
[1:00:35] Marcion was the first guy to really
[1:00:37] champion Paul's letters and that's you
[1:00:40] know mid second century as well.
[1:00:42] It also says Paul is being distorted
[1:00:45] which presupposes an established history
[1:00:47] of interpretation, right?
[1:00:49] Well, Paul's letters are being distorted
[1:00:51] according to what?
[1:00:52] What standard?
[1:00:54] What person, right?
[1:00:56] In the 60s, Paul had been dead a few
[1:00:58] years and was still a highly contested
[1:01:00] figure.
[1:01:01] So this is another argument, right? Is
[1:01:02] the farther back you go in time, the
[1:01:04] more controversial and contested Paul's
[1:01:08] apostleship is. And the later you go in
[1:01:10] time, the more accepted his apostleship
[1:01:12] is
[1:01:13] which is another problem.
[1:01:16] Anything you guys want to add?
[1:01:18] >> Well,
[1:01:19] >> it's just interesting how um
[1:01:22] you know, the scripture is really
[1:01:23] writing. So even
[1:01:26] >> Yeah.
[1:01:26] >> And then um
[1:01:28] can you go back?
[1:01:31] Yeah, it's like uh there's this
[1:01:33] different even in academia there's this
[1:01:36] model that's kind of not understanding
[1:01:39] what David just broke down. Like some of
[1:01:42] these uh
[1:01:44] I think we got to bring this we got to
[1:01:45] bring this to Tabor.
[1:01:46] >> Yeah, yeah. [laughter]
[1:01:47] Yeah, I'd be I'd be curious to see if
[1:01:48] graphe is ever used for scripture if
[1:01:51] there's a different word. Do you know
[1:01:52] about that, David?
[1:01:55] >> I know it's always translated scripture
[1:01:57] in
[1:01:58] the New Testament.
[1:02:00] But there's that passage where um where
[1:02:03] pseudo Paul says
[1:02:05] all scripture is
[1:02:07] given under inspiration of God, but the
[1:02:10] is is added.
[1:02:11] So it should be all scripture given by
[1:02:14] God,
[1:02:16] which would imply that there's some
[1:02:18] scripture that's not given by God, which
[1:02:20] would be just a normal writing.
[1:02:22] >> Yeah.
[1:02:23] >> Um
[1:02:23] >> Good point.
[1:02:24] >> so
[1:02:25] and it's almost like this circular
[1:02:27] reasoning where they say, well,
[1:02:30] graphe is always translated as scripture
[1:02:33] in
[1:02:34] the New Testament, so they always mean
[1:02:36] scripture when they say it.
[1:02:38] But there's two instances, one here in
[1:02:40] uh 2 Peter 3:16 and the other one in uh
[1:02:44] that letter to Timothy where
[1:02:47] it's arguably not it should not be
[1:02:49] translated as scripture. It should be
[1:02:50] translated writing.
[1:02:52] >> Yeah, good point.
[1:02:54] And then of course on the 2 Timothy
[1:02:56] whatever passage of uh all scripture is
[1:02:58] God breathed,
[1:02:59] it's like but again,
[1:03:00] hermeneutics is to find out what is the
[1:03:03] context of this passage, who was it
[1:03:04] written to and when and why.
[1:03:06] And in that time when 2 Timothy was
[1:03:08] written, there was no established New
[1:03:10] Testament canon at all. That was, you
[1:03:12] know, 100 plus years later before we get
[1:03:14] anything like that from probably
[1:03:16] Marcion, right? So scripture to them
[1:03:18] would have been the Hebrew Bible, the
[1:03:20] Septuagint.
[1:03:22] And even in those early first few
[1:03:24] decades, there was many different gospel
[1:03:26] accounts circulating, um mostly which
[1:03:28] are probably not extant today. So, there
[1:03:30] was no established like, you know, it's
[1:03:31] Mark Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John.
[1:03:33] Those are the scriptures of the New
[1:03:34] Testament.
[1:03:35] >> Yeah. We weren't referring to the KJV.
[1:03:38] >> Yeah, exactly.
[1:03:40] >> Yeah. Well, I mean you brought up
[1:03:41] Marcion too that wasn't he the first one
[1:03:44] that really kind of collated all of
[1:03:46] Paul's letters?
[1:03:47] >> 100%
[1:03:48] >> So, 2 Peter 3:16 would have have to have
[1:03:51] been after
[1:03:52] Marcion, which would have been in the
[1:03:54] 150s.
[1:03:55] >> Mhm. Great point.
[1:03:56] >> Right around the same time, yeah, like a
[1:03:57] decade or two after. And uh yeah, a lot
[1:04:00] of these forgeries in the New Testament,
[1:04:02] the Pauline and first and second Peter
[1:04:04] forgeries are there's a lot of attempts
[1:04:06] to
[1:04:07] kind of get at the Marcionites and
[1:04:08] downplay what they're saying and kind of
[1:04:10] take Paul away from them, I think
[1:04:12] mostly.
[1:04:13] >> Yeah.
[1:04:15] >> And then this is uh Ehrman's best piece
[1:04:17] of evidence or favorite piece of
[1:04:18] evidence from his book uh forged,
[1:04:21] which is calling calling it your
[1:04:24] apostles.
[1:04:25] If it's like [laughter] if this is
[1:04:26] Peter, he's like, yeah, your apostles.
[1:04:28] Oh, me too though. I'm I'm an apostle.
[1:04:30] It's like very curious passage.
[1:04:33] Um so, you know, here the apostles are
[1:04:34] being invoked as a collective past
[1:04:36] closed body of authority.
[1:04:38] An apostle does not write about the
[1:04:40] apostles this way.
[1:04:42] So, this is the passage here that you
[1:04:44] should remember the words spoken in the
[1:04:46] past by the holy prophets and the
[1:04:48] commandment of the Lord and Savior
[1:04:49] spoken through your apostles
[1:04:52] in the past. Interesting.
[1:04:55] Now, this is one that I just added
[1:04:56] because this is
[1:04:58] David, this is the argument I go back to
[1:05:00] that I find to be like the most
[1:05:02] frustrating glaring blind spot
[1:05:05] for modern Christianity that I don't
[1:05:08] know how it doesn't bother them more is
[1:05:10] this whole distinction between, you
[1:05:12] know, Gentile and Jewish Christianity
[1:05:15] and how the two, you know, scholars call
[1:05:17] it the parting of the ways, that there
[1:05:19] is no question or debate that first form
[1:05:21] of Christianity was the Nazarene form.
[1:05:24] And after the destruction of the temple
[1:05:26] in 70 AD or right before it, um you know
[1:05:29] Rome bans the Jews during the war with
[1:05:31] the Jews from the Roman all Roman
[1:05:33] jurisdictions and so even Orthodox Jews
[1:05:36] and Nazarene Jews had to flee from all
[1:05:39] Roman territories to avoid this war and
[1:05:41] we know the Nazarenes opted out and
[1:05:43] would not fight on behalf of the Jews
[1:05:46] against Rome. And so we have multiple
[1:05:48] accounts, historical accounts showing
[1:05:50] that Peter and the apostles fled to
[1:05:52] Pella to escape from Rome destroying the
[1:05:55] temple.
[1:05:57] They definitely didn't flee to Rome
[1:05:59] during the war with Rome, right?
[1:06:02] It's just the craziest idea that Peter
[1:06:04] started the church at Rome. And of
[1:06:06] course we know Peter did it because of
[1:06:07] Paul's letter in the probably early 50s
[1:06:10] or maybe even late 40s. He writes to the
[1:06:12] Romans in the book of Romans and he's
[1:06:14] clearly states that he's never been
[1:06:15] there before. He's kind of beseeching
[1:06:18] them to like accept me in your movement
[1:06:20] and come list let me come preach my
[1:06:21] gospel to you and
[1:06:23] um he greets like 26 people by name at
[1:06:26] the church and never mentions Peter or
[1:06:29] even Linus or any of the Rome first
[1:06:30] Roman bishops that are purported by the
[1:06:33] Catholic Church. And you know it's just
[1:06:34] impossible to imagine that Paul would be
[1:06:37] writing a letter to the Roman Church
[1:06:39] founded by Peter who Paul knows
[1:06:40] personally and not even mention Peter's
[1:06:43] name. It's like if you want a guaranteed
[1:06:45] way to get your letter tossed in the
[1:06:46] garbage can by this church, don't
[1:06:48] mention their pope in the letter, right?
[1:06:50] It's just impossible to think he would
[1:06:51] have done this. So Paul's letter proves
[1:06:53] Peter started no such church at Rome as
[1:06:55] Catholic Church claims. But Eusebius in
[1:06:58] church history, Epiphanius in the
[1:07:00] Panarion and even the Clementine
[1:07:02] recognitions all agree that the
[1:07:04] disciples were warned by Christ in a
[1:07:07] dream to flee the coming destruction of
[1:07:09] Jerusalem and the temple and go to
[1:07:12] Pella. And we know that that's where the
[1:07:13] whole Nazarene movement really
[1:07:15] flourishes after that in that
[1:07:17] Transjordan Pella Cole Syria kind of
[1:07:19] region.
[1:07:21] And so So, another argument against
[1:07:22] second Peter being this like uh written
[1:07:24] from a Roman church by Peter kind of
[1:07:26] like to the Romans about you know church
[1:07:28] issues. It just makes no historical
[1:07:30] sense and as I often say to you know
[1:07:34] Catholics and Eastern Orthodox friends
[1:07:37] it's like if you claim that your whole
[1:07:39] church your whole apostolic tradition
[1:07:41] rests on Peter Peter and Paul whatever
[1:07:44] but Peter's like you know he founded our
[1:07:45] church it's like show me one single
[1:07:48] piece of evidence that Peter was ever in
[1:07:50] Rome or started a church in Rome let
[1:07:52] alone
[1:07:53] like if if he's the Pope surely there's
[1:07:56] some kind of written document some
[1:07:58] liturgy some council meeting from Peter
[1:08:02] a commandment from Peter to the Roman
[1:08:03] church there is no such writing or
[1:08:06] evidence at all there's just these kind
[1:08:08] of later church fathers saying oh yeah
[1:08:09] we know that hundreds of years ago Peter
[1:08:11] started our church and it's all based on
[1:08:13] the hearsay of like Polycarp you know
[1:08:15] two centuries later. So, it just it's
[1:08:17] crazy to me I don't know.
[1:08:20] Anything you guys want to add?
[1:08:23] >> Well, I mean it was nice of Paul to
[1:08:26] recognize his
[1:08:27] Herodian kinsman.
[1:08:30] [laughter]
[1:08:31] May maybe that's the line where he was
[1:08:33] going to put Peter in there too but he
[1:08:34] just ran out of room.
[1:08:36] >> You know that's a good theory David.
[1:08:37] Never thought of that before.
[1:08:39] [laughter]
[1:08:41] So, this is a big one.
[1:08:42] Second Peter copies Jude word for word
[1:08:45] about 80 words identically in Greek
[1:08:48] and here's the problem with it right? We
[1:08:50] know that the Jewish Christians
[1:08:51] Nazarenes were a very Enochian strain of
[1:08:55] Judaism like the Essenes the the whole
[1:08:57] Essene type of Judaism
[1:08:59] it it appears to be from all the
[1:09:01] evidence we have in the Dead Sea Scrolls
[1:09:03] and so forth they really looked more to
[1:09:05] Enoch as the patriarch of their faith.
[1:09:08] Not that they didn't also revere Abraham
[1:09:10] but not in the way that the Orthodox
[1:09:12] Jews of the day did right? They really
[1:09:14] saw Enoch as the great prophet that they
[1:09:16] followed after for many reasons we've
[1:09:19] talked about but you know Jesus has all
[1:09:21] kinds of quotes and and parallelisms
[1:09:24] with the book of Enoch the book of
[1:09:26] James, the Epistle of James also does,
[1:09:28] and the Book of Jude, which Jude was the
[1:09:31] other younger brother of Jesus. He
[1:09:34] quotes directly from Enoch and he calls
[1:09:35] Enoch a prophet.
[1:09:37] Now, curiously, the pseudonymous author
[1:09:40] of Second Peter keeps that surrounding
[1:09:42] material but removes the Enoch portion.
[1:09:45] And the basic point here is that a first
[1:09:47] generation Jewish Christian has no
[1:09:49] reason to scrub Enoch, right?
[1:09:52] Especially if Jude is quoting Enoch.
[1:09:54] But a later writer, a Gentile Greek
[1:09:56] writer, as canon boundaries began to
[1:09:58] harden, has every reason to omit the
[1:10:01] Enoch. And we know that all the kind of
[1:10:02] Enochian strain of Judaism was heavily
[1:10:05] scrubbed out of the Greek New Testament.
[1:10:07] So that's another pretty damning piece
[1:10:09] of evidence there.
[1:10:15] So this book, as I said, also has the
[1:10:17] worst, you know, historical attestation
[1:10:19] of any New Testament text. No writer
[1:10:22] even named Second Peter until Origin and
[1:10:24] again the mid third century, who in the
[1:10:27] same breath reports that it's highly
[1:10:29] disputed.
[1:10:30] So even the early Church Fathers
[1:10:32] disputed Second Peter.
[1:10:35] And then Eusebius around 325 classes it
[1:10:37] among the
[1:10:40] which I think just means like disputed
[1:10:42] texts, something like that.
[1:10:44] And notes that ancient presbyters never
[1:10:46] quoted from it. So it's definitely
[1:10:48] written very late. This is one of the
[1:10:49] pieces of evidence that makes scholars,
[1:10:51] some scholars think it might be early
[1:10:53] third century.
[1:10:55] And it's omitted from the Syriac
[1:10:57] Peshitta for centuries as well. And as
[1:11:00] as you pointed out, David, the Syriac
[1:11:02] Aramaic whole tradition is really the
[1:11:05] one that we follow most closely, being
[1:11:07] that it was essentially the language
[1:11:08] spoken by Jesus and the Apostles.
[1:11:15] Now this is what Bart Ehrman also gets
[1:11:16] into in Forged, which I find really a
[1:11:19] really interesting argument, that if you
[1:11:21] just look at ancient literary rates,
[1:11:24] sorry, ancient literacy rates,
[1:11:26] uh
[1:11:27] you find that, you know, virtually
[1:11:28] nobody would have been able to write a
[1:11:31] highly sophisticated Koine Greek text
[1:11:34] like Second Peter outside of a highly
[1:11:36] trained Greek scribe. And so even if you
[1:11:39] try to say that Peter wrote First and
[1:11:42] Second Peter, it's like, okay, well, he
[1:11:44] would have had probably needed a decade
[1:11:47] of Greek scribal training to write a
[1:11:49] document that that well. And where's he
[1:11:52] going to get the money for that? You
[1:11:54] know, he's a he's a peasant
[1:11:56] from Galilee. Like where's he getting
[1:11:57] the money for this Greek scribal
[1:11:58] training?
[1:11:59] Um I've pointed out to Christians in the
[1:12:02] comments often that I mean, the Book of
[1:12:04] Acts directly says, Acts 4:13, that both
[1:12:07] Peter and John were agrammatoi, which
[1:12:10] means
[1:12:11] uh illiterate,
[1:12:12] which I think is on the next slide. But
[1:12:15] these scholars here say that in Roman
[1:12:17] Palestine, probably 3% at most were
[1:12:21] illiterate. Uh in urban villages, maybe
[1:12:23] 1%, and they would have been literate in
[1:12:25] Hebrew, not Greek.
[1:12:27] So that's a problem.
[1:12:29] And Capernaum, which is where Peter was
[1:12:30] from,
[1:12:31] 600 to 1,500 people, no public
[1:12:34] buildings, no inscriptions, no trade
[1:12:35] route. It was a very predominantly
[1:12:38] illiterate uh city.
[1:12:42] The only two literary authors that are
[1:12:44] known from first century Palestine are
[1:12:46] Josephus and Justice of Tiberius. So we
[1:12:49] don't even have a lot of examples of,
[1:12:51] you know, Hebrews from
[1:12:53] Palestine that could write at all, let
[1:12:55] alone in Greek.
[1:12:57] Uh the other big argument that Ehrman
[1:12:59] makes is that reading and writing were
[1:13:00] actually separate skills.
[1:13:03] And if you've ever tried to learn
[1:13:03] another language, you figured this out
[1:13:05] pretty quick, right? There's a big
[1:13:06] difference even between understanding a
[1:13:09] language and speaking it,
[1:13:11] let alone reading and then writing it.
[1:13:13] You can learn to read a language, you
[1:13:16] know, relatively quickly if you want to,
[1:13:18] but to write is like 10 times harder,
[1:13:21] right? Cuz now you've got to think of
[1:13:23] how to structure the sentences,
[1:13:25] prefixes, suffixes. There's so many
[1:13:28] linguistic artifacts you have to get in
[1:13:29] the right spot to
[1:13:31] a correct sentence, but to just learn
[1:13:33] what words mean and read is not that
[1:13:35] difficult, right?
[1:13:36] >> I'm learning Portuguese right now and I
[1:13:38] can
[1:13:39] I can kind of decipher what sentences
[1:13:42] say,
[1:13:43] but if I was left to my own devices to
[1:13:45] write out, I've I'm lost.
[1:13:48] >> Yeah, even a few words is difficult.
[1:13:51] Um yeah, and then Acts 4:13 calls Peter
[1:13:54] a grammatoi, which literally means
[1:13:57] unlettered. And I've researched this one
[1:13:59] especially because it's an argument I've
[1:14:00] used a lot.
[1:14:01] And this is the primary word used in the
[1:14:04] ancient Greek world for someone who is
[1:14:07] illiterate and cannot write is a
[1:14:09] grammatoi. A lot of times the counter
[1:14:11] argument is, well, a grammatoi just
[1:14:13] means not educated at a high level.
[1:14:18] And so I say, okay, well, show me a
[1:14:19] piece of ancient literature that uses a
[1:14:21] grammatoi in that way, right? It's
[1:14:23] always used to mean this person can't
[1:14:25] read or write.
[1:14:28] And then the final argument that I've
[1:14:30] gotten when I point out that 2 Peter is
[1:14:32] a known forgery is they'll say, well,
[1:14:35] but Peter could have dictated the book
[1:14:38] to a Greek scribe. And again,
[1:14:42] very few scholars would say that Peter
[1:14:44] or any of the apostles, even Jesus,
[1:14:46] would have been like fluent in Greek.
[1:14:49] It's it's very hard to make that
[1:14:50] argument.
[1:14:51] Most likely if he was going to dictate
[1:14:53] something, it would have been in Aramaic
[1:14:55] to a scribe that understands Aramaic and
[1:14:57] can write in Greek. So that's kind of
[1:14:59] the argument being made, but there's
[1:15:00] even bigger problems with that.
[1:15:03] I think 1 Peter says, you know, I'm
[1:15:05] writing this to you through Sylvanus,
[1:15:07] which
[1:15:09] a lot of Christians will try to sort of
[1:15:10] presuppose must mean a scribe, but
[1:15:13] scholars, most scholars think it just
[1:15:14] means the letter's carrier, the person
[1:15:16] who's delivering the letter.
[1:15:18] Uh it does not read at all like a
[1:15:20] translated Aramaic text. It reads as an
[1:15:23] original Greek with rhetorical
[1:15:25] flourishes and that high sophistication
[1:15:27] you get from Greek scribal writings.
[1:15:31] Uh dictating in Greek demands the same
[1:15:33] fluency as writing it. That's a big
[1:15:34] point.
[1:15:36] Um plus it would require Septuagint
[1:15:38] knowledge, which means Peter would have
[1:15:40] had to have been able to read Greek at a
[1:15:42] pretty high level to even remember
[1:15:44] passages from the Septuagint that he
[1:15:46] quotes.
[1:15:47] And then the final argument that Ehrman
[1:15:49] makes is that there is no example of
[1:15:50] this anywhere in the ancient world
[1:15:52] anyways, right? If you're even going to
[1:15:54] make this argument that well Peter was
[1:15:55] was saying this in Aramaic to a Greek
[1:15:57] scribe, we have no examples of this ever
[1:16:00] taking place. Uh not one attested case
[1:16:03] of composing a letter essay under
[1:16:05] another man's name and no ancient
[1:16:07] discussion of the practice as legitimate
[1:16:10] or
[1:16:11] illegitimate. So these these are the big
[1:16:13] problems you have to answer to if you're
[1:16:15] going to quote if you're even going to
[1:16:17] use 2 Peter 3:16, right? As an argument
[1:16:20] to defend Paul, you've got to deal with
[1:16:22] all of these problems. And so it's like,
[1:16:24] you know, good luck getting through this
[1:16:27] massive body of evidence that scholars
[1:16:29] have composed. And you know, what I
[1:16:31] would say is like again, we love
[1:16:33] everybody. We love Pauline Christians
[1:16:35] just the same. We're not here to
[1:16:37] rain on anyone's parade or bash on
[1:16:39] anybody's beliefs. It's just uh the fact
[1:16:42] of if you say you want to believe what's
[1:16:44] true,
[1:16:46] what is true should really matter to
[1:16:48] you, right? This was my conviction as a
[1:16:50] Christian, a young Christian pastor was
[1:16:53] I don't want to just close my eyes, plug
[1:16:56] my ears and say la la la when I see
[1:16:58] these contradictions because I will not
[1:17:00] be able to sleep at night. I can't
[1:17:02] stomach knowing that I'm believing
[1:17:04] things that are provably untrue because
[1:17:07] all truth is God's truth. And so if
[1:17:10] something is not true, it is not of God.
[1:17:13] Bottom line, right? And so you should
[1:17:15] not want to believe anything that's not
[1:17:18] true.
[1:17:19] And so if we just present these kinds of
[1:17:21] basic problems with a text like 2 Peter,
[1:17:24] you know, it should bother any Christian
[1:17:26] who wants to believe the truth about
[1:17:28] Jesus and his message and you know, not
[1:17:31] just delude yourself into believing what
[1:17:33] other people have told you. I mean this
[1:17:35] is what
[1:17:36] uh Christians will accuse any other
[1:17:38] religion of doing, Muslims, Hindus,
[1:17:40] Buddhists, whatever. It's like you guys
[1:17:42] are just blindly believing in this false
[1:17:43] religion.
[1:17:44] Well then let me make sure that I'm not
[1:17:46] doing that too, right?
[1:17:48] >> And there's real world consequences.
[1:17:50] There's victims from
[1:17:53] And again, we love everybody, but
[1:17:55] this
[1:17:57] this whole animal sacrifice factory
[1:17:59] farming system in a way is based off of
[1:18:04] the perversion of the original way. Like
[1:18:06] if we had preserved the original way,
[1:18:09] which included peace and love for all of
[1:18:12] God's creatures,
[1:18:15] I mean the the
[1:18:16] all so much of this bloodshed comes
[1:18:19] comes back to
[1:18:20] Paul promoting
[1:18:22] uh this
[1:18:24] sacrificing animals and
[1:18:26] >> Using the sacrificial system to prop up
[1:18:28] his view of Jesus, which is also
[1:18:31] extremely problematic as we know. When
[1:18:33] you study the scholarship on this, you
[1:18:35] find scholars are not even sure that the
[1:18:37] Jews believed that animal sacrifice was
[1:18:40] atoning for their sins, right? Even
[1:18:42] that's
[1:18:43] really impossible to prove with the
[1:18:45] Hebrew Bible because a lot of scholars
[1:18:47] are saying now like it seems like animal
[1:18:49] sacrifice was a way to cleanse God's
[1:18:51] temple of the sins that the people are
[1:18:53] bringing in and that why they spray the
[1:18:55] blood all over the altar and the temple
[1:18:57] floor. It was kind of this metaphysical
[1:18:59] um detergent or whatever that they
[1:19:01] believed the life is in the blood, so
[1:19:03] you spray the life all over God's temple
[1:19:04] and it cleanses the death, the the sin.
[1:19:06] So even that is problematic, but yes, it
[1:19:08] all it all contributes to the way we
[1:19:11] treat animals to this day.
[1:19:12] >> Yeah.
[1:19:13] David, what are
[1:19:15] what do you think are the implications
[1:19:17] of
[1:19:19] what we're talking about here, the the
[1:19:21] inclusion
[1:19:23] of pseudepigrapha, if we're going to be
[1:19:25] kind,
[1:19:26] >> Yeah.
[1:19:27] >> or just the of false scriptures in the
[1:19:30] in the canon?
[1:19:33] >> Well I I think that
[1:19:35] Aaron's right. Um anything that is false
[1:19:37] is not of God.
[1:19:39] So,
[1:19:40] if there is text that we know is false
[1:19:44] in the scripture or in the canon, it
[1:19:46] should be removed, right?
[1:19:48] Like why would you want to keep
[1:19:49] something false in it? Um
[1:19:52] and ironically, this is one of those um
[1:19:54] I guess light bulb moments that
[1:19:57] a lot of the the Paul followers have
[1:19:59] when we bring up the the problems with
[1:20:01] Paul is suddenly they want to get rid of
[1:20:03] all the text
[1:20:05] that's questionable.
[1:20:06] >> Mhm.
[1:20:06] >> I guess it's like a light bulb goes off
[1:20:08] and then they're like, well, we need to
[1:20:10] get rid of Luke and we need to get rid
[1:20:12] of Peter and we need to get rid of Acts
[1:20:16] and this and that and we need to get rid
[1:20:18] of you know, the the Wizard of Oz, we
[1:20:21] need to get rid of Star Wars, we need to
[1:20:23] get rid of the revolution the American
[1:20:25] Revolution. We got to get rid of
[1:20:26] everything. Um
[1:20:29] [laughter]
[1:20:30] and and they say that like
[1:20:33] like the I mean the question is like,
[1:20:34] okay, so we're telling like we're not
[1:20:36] really advocating for getting rid of the
[1:20:38] books, right? Because why would we want
[1:20:40] to get rid of it? Because the best
[1:20:42] evidence against Paul is in his letter,
[1:20:44] so why would we get rid of that? Um I
[1:20:47] don't have a problem with Luke. I think
[1:20:48] Luke just wrote what Paul told him to
[1:20:50] write.
[1:20:51] >> Mhm.
[1:20:51] >> Um you know, and
[1:20:53] and with Second Peter,
[1:20:56] uh you just went over all these reasons
[1:20:58] why we know it's it's not a genuine
[1:21:00] letter, but even if we
[1:21:03] were going to treat it as a genuine
[1:21:04] letter,
[1:21:06] um
[1:21:07] just going off that theory, just because
[1:21:10] Peter said something about Paul doesn't
[1:21:12] mean we have to get rid of Peter.
[1:21:14] Um
[1:21:15] >> Right.
[1:21:16] >> but but on the other hand,
[1:21:18] if someone is saying, oh, so now that we
[1:21:20] realize that there's questions about
[1:21:22] Paul, then we should get rid of these
[1:21:24] others because they're false. Well,
[1:21:26] absolutely. Like why would you want to
[1:21:29] keep something that's not true?
[1:21:32] >> Right.
[1:21:32] >> So so it doesn't seem to be as much of
[1:21:34] like a gotcha as they try to
[1:21:37] to use it as.
[1:21:38] >> Yeah.
[1:21:39] Yeah, again, it's always a projection of
[1:21:41] how
[1:21:42] believe or their presuppositions onto
[1:21:44] us. And every time I get this argument,
[1:21:47] this is how I respond. It's always, oh,
[1:21:49] so you just reject Luke and Acts and all
[1:21:51] this stuff. Oh, you so you just reject?
[1:21:53] And I say, what do you mean reject? What
[1:21:56] does that mean? I don't understand what
[1:21:57] that means.
[1:21:59] Like I study the Bible academically. No
[1:22:01] academic rejects a text like it's an
[1:22:03] ancient text. We study it as an ancient
[1:22:05] text. What do you mean reject? And I
[1:22:08] I've never had a response to this.
[1:22:09] Either it's that that's the last, you
[1:22:11] know, comment that they exchange with me
[1:22:13] or they'll kind of pivot to something
[1:22:14] else because I think they realize when I
[1:22:16] ask them that, oh, you really say I
[1:22:19] don't mean I don't take it to be an
[1:22:20] infallible text written by God.
[1:22:23] That's what they mean when they say you
[1:22:24] rejected.
[1:22:25] I'm not rejecting it. I don't think it's
[1:22:27] an infallible text written by God for
[1:22:29] these kinds of reasons. Now, would you
[1:22:31] like to defend all these arguments that
[1:22:33] scholars make and and debunk them? And
[1:22:35] then maybe you can convince me it's
[1:22:37] infallible. But until you can do that,
[1:22:39] I'm going to air on the side of what
[1:22:40] appears to be true because again, all
[1:22:42] truth is God's truth. And so if there's
[1:22:44] all these problems appearing around a
[1:22:46] text or someone's gospel or whatever,
[1:22:50] I'm going to have I'm going to be
[1:22:51] suspicious of it. And of course, I don't
[1:22:53] think there's such a thing as an
[1:22:54] infallible text. As you've pointed out,
[1:22:56] David, you literally can't even claim a
[1:22:59] text is infallible. Language doesn't
[1:23:01] even work that way. You can only claim
[1:23:03] or appeal to your subjective
[1:23:05] interpretation of the text being
[1:23:07] infallible, which is of course a total
[1:23:10] logical fallacy.
[1:23:13] >> Yeah, I mean once once a human being
[1:23:16] writes anything,
[1:23:18] it's human. You know, humans are not
[1:23:21] infallible. So how can how can a fa
[1:23:23] infallible creature write an infallible
[1:23:26] text?
[1:23:27] >> Exactly.
[1:23:28] >> I think the furthest you could go with
[1:23:30] it is is it true or is it false?
[1:23:32] But you can't go past true to to the
[1:23:35] level of infallible unless you're
[1:23:37] talking about God himself.
[1:23:39] >> Mhm.
[1:23:39] >> Right.
[1:23:40] There there's so many problems with
[1:23:42] claiming that a text is inherent and
[1:23:44] infallible, it's like
[1:23:46] how would you even know if you were
[1:23:48] reading an infallible text? know? Like
[1:23:50] what would be your litmus test to know
[1:23:52] that a text is inerrant in the first
[1:23:54] place?
[1:23:55] >> And and uh an individual could take a a
[1:23:59] true statement in a text
[1:24:01] and interpret it completely wrong. Like
[1:24:03] every every person has free will and
[1:24:05] their own conditions, so
[1:24:07] >> Exactly.
[1:24:07] >> worshipping the Bible for that alone is
[1:24:10] an issue.
[1:24:11] >> Right. Even if it was infallible, you
[1:24:13] still can't get past the fact that your
[1:24:15] brain has to interpret it subjectively
[1:24:17] according to what you think words mean
[1:24:19] and all these things. And so again,
[1:24:20] you're back to appealing to your own
[1:24:22] subjective interpretation either way. So
[1:24:25] it's just a claim that you can never
[1:24:26] prove and you can only beg the question.
[1:24:29] And so we think that hey, why would I
[1:24:31] want to base my entire salvation on a
[1:24:33] question-begging claim that can't be
[1:24:35] proven?
[1:24:36] Surely God would not create such a
[1:24:38] universe, you know?
[1:24:40] >> Mm.
[1:24:41] Yeah, well it it's like um
[1:24:44] using your fallible brain or your
[1:24:46] fallible intellect to measure whether a
[1:24:50] text is infallible,
[1:24:52] it's not possible because the instrument
[1:24:54] the instrument you're you're using to
[1:24:57] read it
[1:24:58] >> [laughter]
[1:24:58] >> can't even measure that. It It's like if
[1:25:01] you were trying if you had something
[1:25:02] where you had to
[1:25:04] um measure the length of something
[1:25:09] to the nearest millimeter,
[1:25:11] but you only had a tape measure that
[1:25:12] measured in kilometers, like you you
[1:25:15] can't get down that that precise. And so
[1:25:18] you can not do that
[1:25:19] with um
[1:25:21] you you could like we're not even
[1:25:22] capable of determining if a text is
[1:25:25] infallible.
[1:25:26] >> We're broken, dirty sinners and we've
[1:25:29] cracked the code. The book is perfect.
[1:25:31] >> [laughter]
[1:25:32] >> Totally. It's like when a Christian uh
[1:25:35] you know hits me with uh also you you
[1:25:37] know deny the word of God, you better
[1:25:39] you better believe the word of God.
[1:25:41] It's like okay, so you're telling me
[1:25:42] that you know the Bible is infallible.
[1:25:45] It's written by God, every word written
[1:25:46] by God. You know that that's true, and
[1:25:49] you are telling me, hey, you better
[1:25:50] believe this too, or you're going to
[1:25:52] hell.
[1:25:53] It's like so now you're stacking another
[1:25:55] problem on top of these problems where I
[1:25:57] have to trust that you would even know
[1:26:00] an infallible book if it slapped you in
[1:26:01] the face.
[1:26:03] I don't trust you that much. I don't
[1:26:04] even know you. You're some guy on the
[1:26:05] internet, and I'm supposed to believe
[1:26:07] that you know an infallible text exists.
[1:26:09] It's like guess what? Mormons say that
[1:26:10] about the Book of Mormon, Muslims say
[1:26:12] that about the Quran. So if you just
[1:26:14] proof text Bible verses at me, you're a
[1:26:16] Muslim appealing to the Quran or a
[1:26:18] Mormon appealing to the Book of Mormon,
[1:26:20] as far as I'm concerned. You have to do
[1:26:22] more than just that because that's what
[1:26:23] you accuse them of doing, and then you
[1:26:26] turn around and do it to me, right? We
[1:26:27] have to have better standards for this
[1:26:29] of how we arrive at truth. What is our
[1:26:32] epistemology of how we arrive at truth?
[1:26:34] And I think Jesus gave us the best
[1:26:36] epistemic standard, which is you you
[1:26:38] just know a tree by its fruit and by no
[1:26:41] other way because the only other way is
[1:26:43] believe what this person is saying and
[1:26:45] and espousing with their mouth, right?
[1:26:48] You cannot hang your hat on what anybody
[1:26:50] says alone, right? Even if it's even if
[1:26:53] it echoes the truth. It's like we know
[1:26:55] that the enemy loves to use truth and
[1:26:58] sprinkle in a little bit of deception
[1:27:00] and that that's how the devil wins
[1:27:02] people over is I'm going to give you 90%
[1:27:04] truth, 90% light, and then I'll just
[1:27:07] sprinkle in a little bit of darkness
[1:27:09] into it, a little bit of evil. And
[1:27:11] because you're distracted and, you know,
[1:27:13] shiny object syndroming over the light,
[1:27:16] you won't see the evil I've woven into
[1:27:17] it, and then I've captured you into my
[1:27:19] thought system. So it's very dangerous
[1:27:21] to just go around espousing doctrines.
[1:27:24] We have to have a better standard than
[1:27:26] that, and there is no better standard by
[1:27:28] which to judge truth than how someone is
[1:27:30] living. The truth is based in what is uh
[1:27:33] good for all beings equally, right? What
[1:27:36] is based in love, what is based in
[1:27:37] righteousness, what does no harm, and
[1:27:40] what loves its neighbor as itself. And
[1:27:42] you can't miss that if that's your
[1:27:44] standard, right?
[1:27:45] Anything we want to pivot to before we
[1:27:47] close?
[1:27:48] >> Well, uh
[1:27:49] >> David, what are some other
[1:27:51] when when you have these conversations
[1:27:53] about Paul, what are the other go-tos
[1:27:55] that
[1:27:57] um Christians might throw at you?
[1:27:59] >> Right hand of fellowship.
[1:28:00] >> [clears throat]
[1:28:00] >> Yeah.
[1:28:01] >> [laughter]
[1:28:02] >> Uh well, for one of the one of the ones
[1:28:04] I hear all the time is when you when you
[1:28:07] use the Bible
[1:28:08] to show that Paul
[1:28:11] is
[1:28:12] not on the up and up,
[1:28:15] then they accuse you of
[1:28:17] rejecting the Bible.
[1:28:20] But it's it's like
[1:28:21] how does that make sense? Because I'm
[1:28:23] using the Bible to prove my point.
[1:28:26] So how is that rejecting the Bible?
[1:28:29] >> Yeah.
[1:28:29] >> Um
[1:28:30] you know, and I think Aaron said this
[1:28:32] before that when people call the Bible
[1:28:34] infallible, what they really mean is
[1:28:36] that
[1:28:37] their interpretation of the Bible is
[1:28:38] infallible.
[1:28:41] >> It's ego. Again.
[1:28:42] >> literally leaning on their own
[1:28:44] understanding, which is
[1:28:46] one one of the lines they love to throw
[1:28:47] around not to do.
[1:28:49] >> Yeah.
[1:28:50] Yeah, and then the the whole right hand
[1:28:52] of fellowship thing just to close on
[1:28:54] this, um it it goes back to the same
[1:28:56] kind of argument of like, well, Peter
[1:28:58] calls Paul a brother, therefore he
[1:28:59] agrees with everything he taught.
[1:29:02] It's like, okay, so so Paul says, which
[1:29:04] is already problematic,
[1:29:06] Paul says is extremely problematic
[1:29:08] because he admits to lying and
[1:29:09] shape-shifting to fit whatever crew he's
[1:29:12] around and all these things.
[1:29:14] Uh if by my lie, you know, we we just
[1:29:15] can't trust Paul on anything because in
[1:29:18] my humble personal opinion, Paul has
[1:29:21] every earmark of a classic overt
[1:29:23] narcissist. He can't stop talking about
[1:29:25] himself. He can't stop boasting about
[1:29:27] himself. He he appeals to himself
[1:29:29] constantly for his own
[1:29:32] beliefs and claims.
[1:29:34] My gospel, my gospel. He he inflates
[1:29:36] himself above the apostles, those
[1:29:37] so-called pillars, whatever they were,
[1:29:39] whatever they used to be makes no
[1:29:41] difference to me. Like he downplays the
[1:29:43] entire
[1:29:44] Davidic line and, you know, physical
[1:29:47] human Jesus tradition and says we no
[1:29:49] longer know Jesus after the flesh, only
[1:29:52] after the spirit. And luckily, Jesus's
[1:29:54] spirit is appearing to me in private
[1:29:56] visions. So, we already have major
[1:29:58] problems if you're just saying, well,
[1:29:59] Paul said that he met the disciples and
[1:30:01] they gave him the right hand of
[1:30:01] fellowship. Maybe that's a total lie.
[1:30:03] Maybe they they greeted him and were
[1:30:05] kind of like, oh, here's that serial
[1:30:06] killer and they just like didn't want
[1:30:07] him to lash out at them. We don't know.
[1:30:10] But you're going back to the
[1:30:11] presupposition that because they shook
[1:30:13] his hand and greeted him warmly, which
[1:30:16] as you showed, David, in your slides,
[1:30:18] was the Nazarene way. This is what Jesus
[1:30:20] taught, love your neighbor as yourself.
[1:30:22] Even if they disagreed
[1:30:23] >> enemies.
[1:30:24] >> Love your enemies, right? Um even if
[1:30:26] they did disagree with Paul's gospel,
[1:30:28] they would have still greeted him with
[1:30:29] the right hand of fellowship. And
[1:30:31] probably all the more so because they
[1:30:33] probably wanted to convert him to the
[1:30:35] Nazarene way and say, hey man, can you
[1:30:36] get away from this Platonism and like
[1:30:38] making Jesus into a demigod and stuff?
[1:30:40] Come back to follow the real teachings
[1:30:42] as Pete, the real Peter says in the
[1:30:44] homilies, right? We hey hey buddy, we
[1:30:46] walked and talked with the real physical
[1:30:48] Jesus. So, we're going to have a hard
[1:30:49] time with your private Jesus and all
[1:30:51] these weird claims.
[1:30:52] But
[1:30:54] a a third argument there is
[1:30:57] this is according to Paul, this is his
[1:30:58] second visit to Jerusalem. I think he
[1:31:01] says when he gets his private
[1:31:03] revelation, correct me if I'm wrong,
[1:31:05] David, he says it was 14 years before he
[1:31:08] goes to Jerusalem, right? He says, I did
[1:31:09] not immediately go up to consult the
[1:31:11] apostles who were before me. I went away
[1:31:13] to Arabia for 14 years or something.
[1:31:17] Then he goes and meets Peter and James
[1:31:19] only, not the rest of the apostles. And
[1:31:21] then I think it's three more years,
[1:31:23] right, before he goes back again?
[1:31:26] >> Um yeah, I think you're right.
[1:31:29] >> Something like that.
[1:31:30] >> Yeah.
[1:31:31] >> Basically, it's his second time in
[1:31:32] Jerusalem meeting the apostles and he
[1:31:34] says, and they greeted me with the right
[1:31:35] hand of fellowship and he says, I you
[1:31:36] know, I sort of laid my gospel before
[1:31:38] them to make sure that I wasn't running
[1:31:39] in vain. It's like, okay, but to the
[1:31:42] Jews he becomes as a Jew.
[1:31:44] And so he probably was laying forward to
[1:31:46] them a very Jewish type of version of
[1:31:48] his gospel and maybe avoiding the
[1:31:51] Platonic elements, right? We just don't
[1:31:52] know if Paul gave him the
[1:31:54] accurate depiction,
[1:31:56] but the bottom line for me is,
[1:31:58] we know that Paul was probably accepted
[1:32:01] by the Nazarenes initially because
[1:32:02] that's the Jesus way, forgive your
[1:32:04] enemies, and he was the chief, you know,
[1:32:06] serial killer of Nazarenes before that.
[1:32:09] So they were probably like, hey, thank
[1:32:10] God this guy got converted to stop
[1:32:12] killing us and maybe he wants to join
[1:32:14] our movement. Let's be friendly to this
[1:32:15] guy and welcome him in.
[1:32:17] And so we know that that was the initial
[1:32:19] probably attitude of the disciples.
[1:32:22] But we also know without any shadow of a
[1:32:24] doubt, based on even things in the New
[1:32:27] Testament like the Epistle of James,
[1:32:28] that they eventually did have major
[1:32:30] problems and disagreements with what
[1:32:33] Paul was teaching that happened at some
[1:32:36] point, right? So just because they
[1:32:38] greeted him with the right hand of
[1:32:39] fellowship by no means whatsoever
[1:32:42] implies that they agreed with everything
[1:32:44] he already was teaching and for all of
[1:32:45] time what he would teach.
[1:32:47] In yeah, in perpetuity. I shook your
[1:32:49] hand. I agree with anything that comes
[1:32:50] out of your mouth forever. It's just a
[1:32:52] ludicrous argument.
[1:32:54] >> Yeah, and I mean it's it's interesting
[1:32:56] just the positioning of that whole
[1:32:58] argument because
[1:33:00] the ending of Galatians 1 Paul is making
[1:33:04] a point,
[1:33:05] I didn't learn anything at all from the
[1:33:06] apostles. That that's why he went
[1:33:08] through that whole timeline. Um by the
[1:33:10] way, you have the numbers right. You
[1:33:12] just had them swapped. He was three
[1:33:14] years in Arabia and then after 14 went
[1:33:16] to Jerusalem. But yeah, it was still the
[1:33:17] same time frame, 17 years.
[1:33:19] >> Got it.
[1:33:20] >> Um
[1:33:21] so
[1:33:22] so then he he tells you that they gave
[1:33:24] me the right hand of fellowship. Now he
[1:33:26] also says that it was in a private
[1:33:28] meeting.
[1:33:29] They they gave the right hand of
[1:33:30] fellowship in private, so no one else
[1:33:32] saw it.
[1:33:34] And then immediately after that in the
[1:33:36] same chapter where he's saying that he
[1:33:38] gave that they gave him the right hand
[1:33:40] of fellowship, then you have Paul
[1:33:43] turning on Peter.
[1:33:44] >> Yeah.
[1:33:45] >> And it's like, well, if that's the way
[1:33:46] you treat somebody who gives you the
[1:33:47] right hand of fellowship, what does that
[1:33:49] say about you first of all? But then if
[1:33:52] you look at the roster of the the
[1:33:54] argument, you had Paul on one side. On
[1:33:57] the other side you had Peter.
[1:33:59] You have the delegation from James. You
[1:34:02] had all the Antioch Jews. And you even
[1:34:05] had Barnabas against Paul.
[1:34:08] >> Ouch.
[1:34:09] >> And
[1:34:09] >> Doesn't sound like a lot of fellowship
[1:34:11] there.
[1:34:11] >> [laughter]
[1:34:12] >> Yeah. It doesn't sound like he still had
[1:34:14] that right hand of fellowship.
[1:34:16] But it's it's kind of like um like you
[1:34:19] mentioned K Podge earlier. Like that she
[1:34:21] made this video and kind of came out
[1:34:23] against
[1:34:24] or came out as questioning Paul. I won't
[1:34:26] say against, but
[1:34:27] >> Mhm.
[1:34:28] >> um there was a lot of people in her
[1:34:29] comments
[1:34:31] on that first video that she made that
[1:34:33] were saying
[1:34:34] I used to like you. I used to listen to
[1:34:36] you, but now I'm going to
[1:34:38] stop or you you've gone too far or
[1:34:40] something. You know, they were they were
[1:34:41] basically saying I used to like you, but
[1:34:43] now you're speaking the truth about
[1:34:45] Paul, so I'm going to have to
[1:34:47] break fellowship with you.
[1:34:49] Well Well, wait a minute. You already
[1:34:51] gave her the right hand of fellowship.
[1:34:53] [laughter]
[1:34:54] You're
[1:34:54] >> Got you.
[1:34:54] >> You're locked in.
[1:34:55] >> Yeah.
[1:34:56] >> It's like a marriage.
[1:34:56] >> It doesn't matter what she says. Like
[1:34:58] you're locked in, dude. Sorry. You can't
[1:35:01] uh you can't back out now. I mean,
[1:35:03] that's what they're doing to Peter.
[1:35:04] >> Wow.
[1:35:05] >> And the thing is the whole right hand of
[1:35:07] fellowship thing, it is based solely
[1:35:09] upon Paul's word. No one else.
[1:35:12] >> Exactly.
[1:35:13] >> I mean, even in Acts 14 and 15 Luke
[1:35:17] doesn't recount that that they went into
[1:35:19] a private room and
[1:35:21] gave Paul the right hand of fellowship.
[1:35:23] All All that he says in Acts 15 is that
[1:35:26] they listened to what he had to say.
[1:35:28] >> Right. And it does say in like Acts I
[1:35:30] want to say it's like 9:24
[1:35:32] um
[1:35:33] it says when Paul came to Jerusalem, all
[1:35:36] the disciples avoided him and would not
[1:35:39] um like fellowship with him because they
[1:35:40] were afraid of him. So he that that
[1:35:44] would back up what we were just saying
[1:35:45] of like
[1:35:47] Paul shows up. He's like, hey, I'm no
[1:35:48] longer a serial killer. Can I join your
[1:35:50] movement? And they're like, hey, Paul
[1:35:53] and you know, they were probably still
[1:35:54] afraid of the guy and wanting to have a
[1:35:56] good interaction with him because hey,
[1:35:58] we don't know this guy. If if we have a
[1:35:59] bad interaction with this guy, he might
[1:36:01] flip back and go back to Caiaphas and
[1:36:03] start killing us again. So there's
[1:36:05] clearly there's a lot of tension and
[1:36:07] fear there. So how can you knowing that,
[1:36:09] knowing Acts literally says that that
[1:36:12] they were like, dude, we agree with
[1:36:13] everything you say and ever will say.
[1:36:15] You're welcome to our movement.
[1:36:17] It's totally crazy.
[1:36:19] So I guess we'll go ahead and close up
[1:36:21] shop there. I think we've done our due
[1:36:22] diligence on 2 Peter 3:16 for today. Um
[1:36:26] but I just want to say really quick
[1:36:27] before we close that
[1:36:28] if you guys are a fan of this podcast,
[1:36:30] I'm telling you, if you're not watching
[1:36:32] David the Nazarene's channel, you are
[1:36:33] missing out on the best Jesus Way
[1:36:37] Nazarene content out there.
[1:36:39] David, especially lately, but since day
[1:36:41] one I've been watching this guy's
[1:36:43] channel. He just puts out banger after
[1:36:45] banger on these topics and does really
[1:36:48] rigorous research as you've seen today
[1:36:50] unpacking these things with not just the
[1:36:53] kind of scholarly finesse we like, but
[1:36:55] uh something else we really appreciate
[1:36:57] about you, David, and talk about a lot
[1:36:59] um is how much we appreciate the way you
[1:37:02] form your arguments just with so much
[1:37:04] coherence and simplicity and no
[1:37:06] nonsense, straight to the point. A lot
[1:37:09] of good dry a lot of good dry humor
[1:37:10] [laughter] we like as well. But yeah, I
[1:37:12] just want to give you some more flowers
[1:37:13] before we close, man, cuz you're doing
[1:37:15] amazing work. We've both learned a lot
[1:37:17] from your channel and we highly
[1:37:18] recommend every fan of this podcast, you
[1:37:20] got to follow David the Nazarene. We'll
[1:37:22] put his uh links in the description
[1:37:24] below.
[1:37:25] >> Well, thank you very much. It's uh it's
[1:37:28] always a pleasure to be on here and uh
[1:37:29] we always have some great discussion. So
[1:37:32] really uh
[1:37:33] appreciate that and
[1:37:35] can't wait till next time.
[1:37:36] >> Yes.
[1:37:38] >> Likewise, brother.
[1:37:40] >> Yeah. Yeah. Our our first conversation
[1:37:43] kind of took the internet by storm and I
[1:37:44] think that was
[1:37:46] honestly one of the catalysts for
[1:37:48] getting this conversation into the in
[1:37:50] mainstream. So hopefully this one and
[1:37:52] our future ones will and I echo
[1:37:54] everything Aaron said about David's
[1:37:56] channel. You've really been a a
[1:37:58] trailblazer for the whole Nazarene
[1:38:00] movement and we're very grateful.
[1:38:02] >> Yep.
[1:38:03] Yep, absolutely.
[1:38:04] So, David, thank you again for joining
[1:38:06] us today. James, thank you as always for
[1:38:09] being our co-host today. [music] And
[1:38:10] thank you guys for watching this episode
[1:38:12] of the Jesus Way podcast. It's so good
[1:38:14] to be back. We got so many epic episode
[1:38:16] and and topic ideas coming your way, so
[1:38:18] stay tuned for that.
[1:38:20] But until next time,
[1:38:21] you know what it [music] is. Get out
[1:38:23] into your world and live this message by
[1:38:25] loving God with all your heart and
[1:38:27] loving your neighbor as yourself. And
[1:38:29] we'll see you back here for the next
[1:38:30] episode of the Jesus Way podcast. Peace
[1:38:33] and love, everyone.
[1:38:35] >> [music]
[1:38:48] [music]