Transcript
[0:00] I was in Stargate in the military 7 and
[0:03] a half years. I was the only remote
[0:05] viewer left. I I will tell you frankly I
[0:09] I've targeted hundreds hundreds of UFOs.
[0:12] >> Wow.
[0:14] >> Never saw an entity in any of them.
[0:16] >> Now, I did see aliens, but I would call
[0:21] aliens because there's no other word to
[0:24] use.
[0:24] >> Yeah.
[0:25] >> Uh they're not aliens actually. What
[0:27] they are, they're robots. Every entity
[0:30] I've ever seen in a UFO, except for one
[0:32] UFO, are all robots. Because of the
[0:36] numbers of targets that I did in my
[0:39] lifetime
[0:40] and some of the things I looked into
[0:42] that were mysteries that the DoD wanted
[0:45] solved.
[0:47] >> Um, the conclusion I came to, um, I have
[0:51] a sense that we're not originally from
[0:53] this planet. So when people talk about
[0:56] aliens, we should be talking about
[0:58] ourselves.
[0:59] What's fascinating to me is the more of
[1:02] that you do, the more of a threat you
[1:03] become to your own nation.
[1:05] >> True. Yeah.
[1:06] >> Think about it.
[1:07] >> That's I think the reason why they shut
[1:10] it down.
[1:10] >> Yeah. Yeah. Because if you can do if you
[1:12] can point your awareness there, you can
[1:14] point it anywhere. And that's a
[1:15] dangerous
[1:17] >> if if I said when you produce
[1:20] information that you shouldn't know,
[1:22] >> right? and you're standing in front of
[1:25] somebody who says, "There's only three
[1:28] people in the entire world that know
[1:31] we're planning A."
[1:33] >> Yeah.
[1:34] >> And you're number four.
[1:35] >> Yeah.
[1:36] >> Give us a source or die right here.
[1:39] >> Yeah.
[1:39] >> Put that on precise.
[1:45] If you have spent any time investigating
[1:48] the outer reaches of what's possible
[1:50] through human consciousness, remote
[1:52] viewing in particular, you've likely
[1:54] heard the legend of our guest in this
[1:56] one, Joe McMongle. But if not, he is
[2:00] known as remote viewer 0001. He is one
[2:04] of the original six operational psychic
[2:06] spies recruited into the US Army's
[2:08] classified Stargate program. This man
[2:10] has spent four decades at the bleeding
[2:13] edge of anomalous cognition and
[2:15] laboratory research and doing out-of-
[2:17] body research with his friend Bob Monroe
[2:20] at the Monroe Institute, which is
[2:21] actually where we recorded this episode.
[2:23] During his Stargate tenure, he peered
[2:25] inside top secret Soviet facilities to
[2:28] sketch a massive experimental submarine
[2:31] before satellites even knew it existed.
[2:33] He tracked counter intelligence targets
[2:35] using only their social security number.
[2:37] He even earned the Legion of Merit Medal
[2:40] for producing crucial unobtainable
[2:42] intelligence across hundreds of
[2:44] operational missions. And I'm mentioning
[2:46] all of this in the introduction because
[2:48] I really tried to go beyond the standard
[2:51] uh McMongle lore, as much as I love it.
[2:53] We talk about everything from what Joe
[2:56] learned about the nature of reality, the
[2:58] mind, and the soul from his near-death
[3:00] experiences, why he believes humans are
[3:03] not originally from this planet, and the
[3:05] incredible perplexing moment when an
[3:08] intelligence from inside of a UFO seemed
[3:10] to sever Joe's mind from viewing the
[3:13] target. And sincerely, my friends, just
[3:16] so much more. I am tempted to go on,
[3:17] believe me. But without further ado,
[3:20] here's the great Joe McMagle. Joe, so
[3:23] nice to officially meet you. I actually
[3:25] met you briefly at at the Gateway, but I
[3:28] know you do so many of those and I'm
[3:30] sure it's just a blur.
[3:31] >> A lot of them
[3:32] >> of faces. Yeah.
[3:33] >> 15 years of them.
[3:34] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy.
[3:36] >> Yeah.
[3:37] >> So, I said I was going to try to ask you
[3:39] some things that maybe you haven't been
[3:40] asked a million times. And this is
[3:42] definitely something you have been
[3:43] asked, but I'm guessing this usually
[3:45] comes more toward the end of the
[3:46] conversation, which is sort of a more
[3:49] broadly philosophical question.
[3:52] You've lived a life that is intensely
[3:56] different than most people. You've had
[3:57] so many anomalous experiences. You've
[4:00] been involved in so many things that
[4:02] most people would consider to be
[4:03] paranormal. But then, of course, you
[4:05] also just live a life that everybody
[4:07] else is living. So, just right out of
[4:10] the gate, how has your view of reality
[4:13] sort of evolved as you've gotten to the
[4:17] stage of life that you're in now? That's
[4:19] a really good question because it it uh
[4:23] sort of opened the door to the one thing
[4:25] we should all understand.
[4:28] >> Okay. And that is that
[4:31] uh we we think we live in a single world
[4:34] where we share the world with everybody.
[4:36] >> Yeah.
[4:37] >> And uh everybody's either mcking it up
[4:39] for us or they're making it better or
[4:41] whatever. When in fact there's only one
[4:44] world. That's the one we're in. each one
[4:47] of us is in, they're separate from
[4:49] anything else because sharing that world
[4:53] with everybody else. If you
[4:56] only meet somebody for a couple hours
[4:58] across a year, let's say, the best you
[5:01] could say is, "Hey, where you been?"
[5:04] They say, "Oh, I went to an island and
[5:06] lived there all all year."
[5:09] >> And you can only say, "I believe you."
[5:12] You can never know for sure. So the only
[5:15] world you're in charge of is yours.
[5:18] It teaches you immediately by having
[5:21] that understanding that everything that
[5:24] happens to you, good, bad, or
[5:27] indifferent, you are the cause of it.
[5:31] >> Most people won't accept that.
[5:33] >> Yeah. And and I know because of
[5:36] having watched so many of your
[5:38] interviews and having read some of your
[5:39] books that when you say that you mean
[5:42] that on kind of a deeper level than I
[5:44] think most people, you know, they they
[5:46] hear, "Oh, you either make it happen or
[5:48] you don't." They're probably thinking
[5:50] about that on a very
[5:51] >> surface level, but that might go to a
[5:53] very deep onlogical level. Once you
[5:55] start getting into, oh,
[5:56] >> absolutely.
[5:57] >> Well, what is you? what what is the
[5:58] totality of of self or you know the
[6:01] total self as Bob
[6:03] >> would say. Um so so when you say that
[6:05] that it's really all up to you
[6:08] >> is are you talking about that kind of
[6:10] more deep level?
[6:11] >> Absolutely. You're talking about
[6:14] >> uh every action that you make, every
[6:18] decision you make, everything that you
[6:19] do has a direct effect on you.
[6:22] >> Mhm. Of course, it affects others too to
[6:26] a lesser lesser degree. But it's the
[6:29] very reason why we might be having a
[6:32] really really bad life and a really
[6:35] really good life.
[6:36] >> Yeah.
[6:36] >> It's how we receive
[6:40] what things happen do to us and how we
[6:44] respond to them. We can either try to be
[6:47] better or figure out a way to fix
[6:50] whatever is going on or not. But we
[6:53] certainly can't say I'm in this mood
[6:55] because the world is crappy.
[6:58] >> Yeah.
[6:58] >> Okay.
[6:59] >> Yeah.
[6:59] >> It's what you do with it.
[7:01] >> That that's a thing that a lot of people
[7:04] don't want to hear. But since we're
[7:06] since we're asking these really big
[7:08] questions like from the beginning,
[7:11] >> what what do you think the self is,
[7:15] >> you know, like like beyond this mortal
[7:18] shell? Like what what is the the reality
[7:21] of, you know, the higher self, the total
[7:24] self? How have you come to understand
[7:27] that if at all?
[7:28] >> Well, we don't really know because
[7:31] nobody's actually been dead a long time
[7:34] and come back. So well they they might
[7:37] have but they don't remember where they
[7:38] were or who they were before
[7:41] uh except in very rare cases. Um
[7:45] one of the ways that we know that is by
[7:48] virtue of the fact that
[7:51] uh you've heard the expression at death
[7:55] when people have come very very close to
[7:57] death. They've had this what they call a
[7:59] near-death experience. in that
[8:01] near-death experience. Sometimes they'll
[8:03] say something like, uh, the way it'll
[8:05] come across is something like, uh, wow,
[8:09] I I just reviewed my entire life and I
[8:12] did it in seconds. And you go, that's
[8:14] not possible. But it is. And the reason
[8:18] why is because during your life, what
[8:22] you're doing is you're first off, you're
[8:24] creating time and you're creating space.
[8:27] And those two things when they're
[8:28] married together get a location and that
[8:32] location never changes and that event
[8:34] never goes away. It's always it's there
[8:36] permanently.
[8:38] >> So when something happens and you react
[8:42] a certain way that gives the location
[8:45] and then it gives the time specific time
[8:48] date exactly when and where. So it's
[8:51] like welding two wires together in a
[8:54] matrix
[8:55] >> and over time you're building this ton
[8:58] strut
[8:59] >> that looks very much like a wire diagram
[9:02] >> but it's held together only with that
[9:04] tack weld. The tack weld being your
[9:06] experience.
[9:07] >> Okay.
[9:08] >> So when you cease to be living and
[9:12] you're going into death and you suddenly
[9:17] have this epiphany. Well, what's
[9:20] happening is you come to understand
[9:23] at every one of those intersections all
[9:26] the experience behind it that other
[9:28] people had and some of those other
[9:30] people are you.
[9:33] >> Okay. You find out that you may have
[9:35] shared your life over three rebirths
[9:39] with the same seven people or the same
[9:41] 10 people or whatever. So it becomes
[9:45] very meaningful to you when you realize
[9:48] what all those experiences are. It it
[9:51] just fills in very rapidly. Yeah.
[9:53] >> That's that's why you can say that I rel
[9:57] uh relived my whole life
[9:59] >> and uh
[10:00] >> Yeah.
[10:01] >> You understand?
[10:02] >> Yeah. Absolutely. And I know you've had
[10:04] multiple near-death experiences and and
[10:06] this is something I've I've gone back
[10:08] through a lot of, you know, ancient
[10:10] stories like early near-death
[10:12] experiences.
[10:13] >> And it's remarkable how similar the
[10:15] phenomenology is, even when you're
[10:17] looking at, you know, the ancient world,
[10:19] like the the old one of the oldest ones
[10:20] I know about is do you know about the
[10:22] myth of from Plato's Republic? Mhm.
[10:24] >> Um, so for for the audience, I've talked
[10:26] about it a lot of times on the channel
[10:28] because it's just an unbelievably
[10:30] important myth, you know, that talks
[10:32] about the whole kind of afterlife
[10:34] process. And, you know, a lot of people
[10:37] don't know there in western esotericism.
[10:40] There there is reincarnation. It's not
[10:42] just an eastern idea. It is a western
[10:44] idea, too.
[10:45] >> And one of the things they describe,
[10:48] >> you know, is the soul going through this
[10:49] process that sounds very similar to a
[10:52] lot of modern near-death experiencers.
[10:55] But one of the things they talk about
[10:56] that really gets to the point that you
[10:58] just made is that there's this different
[11:00] kind of perception. It's like an they
[11:02] call it like an almost 360 degree kind
[11:04] of awareness.
[11:07] >> And they'll say things like sight, but
[11:10] it you can tell they don't really need
[11:12] sight. It's just like some kind of
[11:14] >> more all-encompassing awareness that we
[11:16] don't normally have. sort of like like a
[11:20] expanded mind kind of I don't know like
[11:22] psychedelic knowing that I I can't
[11:25] >> I don't know what it's like cuz I
[11:26] haven't been in that experience
[11:28] >> but as as hard as it probably is to
[11:31] describe this is a topic I wanted to get
[11:33] into with you anyway.
[11:34] >> Yeah.
[11:35] >> What what is that experience really like
[11:39] when you're when you're so close to to
[11:42] the other side? Well, it's the reason
[11:45] it's a different perception is because
[11:47] we're bringing to bear all of our
[11:50] abilities in terms of how we perceive
[11:53] things. Uh normally in in life the the
[11:57] way we operate is we believe that we
[12:00] only have a certain set of senses.
[12:02] >> Mhm. Now we have sight, hearing, taste,
[12:04] touch,
[12:07] emotions kind of a sense, but we don't
[12:09] really beyond that. We don't really many
[12:12] people don't believe they have anything
[12:14] else. You don't it's more
[12:17] >> we're more like animals than you think.
[12:19] Okay, that kind of thing. When in fact,
[12:22] what we really have is we have uh a ton
[12:26] of different senses that we don't know
[12:28] about. So
[12:30] when we when we're in that that
[12:34] near-death experience,
[12:36] uh first off, we we believe we're not in
[12:39] contact with our body anymore. Secondly,
[12:43] because of that, uh our senses are
[12:46] confusing.
[12:47] Uh the touch sense, for instance, is an
[12:51] all consuming touch. It's not just the
[12:54] spot you touch.
[12:56] Uh it's kind of like in remote viewing
[12:59] they say in remote viewing it's remote
[13:02] viewing which implies it's seeing
[13:04] >> right
[13:05] >> it's never seeing it's just a different
[13:07] form of perception.
[13:10] Uh they say remote viewing because it
[13:12] comes across that way. Uh the
[13:15] perceptions do but you have to learn a
[13:18] whole different way of analyzing the
[13:21] input that you're getting. The mistake a
[13:24] lot of people make when they hear about
[13:27] remote viewing is they say, "Well, okay,
[13:30] I'm going to remote view, I don't know,
[13:32] the a box in the corner." So, they do
[13:34] this.
[13:37] >> They cover their eyes because they're
[13:39] trying to get a visual of what's in the
[13:41] box. When as soon as you do that, you
[13:44] shut down your hearing, your taste, your
[13:46] smell. You touch you just shut down
[13:48] everything else.
[13:49] >> Yeah. So, there's no way that is what
[13:52] remote viewing entails. Remote viewing
[13:55] is more like when you're
[13:58] uh daydreaming. Uh you're like getting
[14:02] ready to go on vacation. You're sitting
[14:04] in your office and you're thinking about
[14:07] that place and you're there. You're
[14:09] really there and you're going, "Oh, wow.
[14:12] This is going to be so great, this
[14:14] vacation." And then somebody snaps their
[14:16] fingers in front of your faces.
[14:18] >> Earth to Joe. worth to Joe.
[14:20] >> Yeah.
[14:20] >> You know, and you come back in the room,
[14:22] it's like, wow, you were daydreaming or
[14:25] something. That's what they usually say.
[14:27] >> Well, that's remote viewing.
[14:28] >> Yes.
[14:29] >> But you're there with all the senses,
[14:32] including even the ones that aren't so
[14:35] >> uh so commonly known.
[14:37] >> Yeah.
[14:38] >> Like um
[14:41] emotional connections,
[14:43] >> that sort of thing. There's just so many
[14:46] different senses that we don't even know
[14:48] what they all are.
[14:50] >> Yeah. Yeah. I've talked to a couple of
[14:52] other people who were in the Stargate
[14:54] program at at this point.
[14:55] >> And um I I know there's I've sadly come
[14:59] to to to learn that there are like these
[15:01] sort of thieftdubs with it within that
[15:03] fraternity of people who associate with
[15:05] each other and people who who don't and
[15:06] have different opinions on things. But
[15:08] one of the things that I I heard was
[15:11] from Lynn Buchanan and he said that in
[15:15] his experience the strongest experiences
[15:17] were always of others emotions
[15:19] >> and he would often get tasked to try to
[15:21] tap into people's thought process or
[15:24] emotional process.
[15:25] >> Um
[15:26] >> and I would imagine that that's
[15:28] something that can be extremely
[15:31] taxing on your own psyche. Like if you
[15:33] if you're really tapping into some
[15:35] madman's thought process and you're
[15:37] doing that successfully, it seems like
[15:39] that could almost infect the remote
[15:41] viewer or take a big toll on the remote
[15:43] viewer.
[15:43] >> Initially, it can. The the problem is
[15:46] that that most people believe I think
[15:50] they believe that when they're in that
[15:52] space or in that place where they're in
[15:56] full contact or in someone's feeling as
[16:00] an example or in their emotion of what
[16:04] what they're experiencing that's going
[16:07] on and they're being targeted for that
[16:10] specific thing. They get a sense that um
[16:14] that they're sharing the same person's
[16:16] or you they're sharing the same
[16:18] experience a person's having.
[16:20] >> Yes.
[16:20] >> It's just a shadow of it. It we we are
[16:24] incapable as viewers to get into
[16:27] anybody's mind. We can't see through
[16:30] their eyes. We can't know what they're
[16:32] thinking. All we can do is report on the
[16:35] things that tell us what they're
[16:38] probably doing.
[16:39] >> Yeah. the same as though we're sitting
[16:41] in a room with somebody and watching.
[16:44] There is a number of times when I've
[16:46] been filmed doing remote viewing on
[16:48] different shows and at at that point the
[16:53] person that they have targeted me
[16:56] against uh I've been targeted on that
[16:59] person just to get me to that place so I
[17:01] can describe the place what's going on.
[17:05] Well, when they see that being played
[17:07] back or they see my sketches, they
[17:09] automatically assume
[17:12] this guy's inside my head and he's
[17:14] looking through my eyes. And if he's
[17:16] doing that, he knows everything that I'm
[17:18] thinking.
[17:19] >> Okay? And they panic and it's like, "No,
[17:23] it never happens. There's just no way.
[17:25] That's too invasive."
[17:27] Um, some of the people in Stargate
[17:30] believe that you can actually uh hurt
[17:33] people. Yeah, with
[17:34] >> the mind that's an impossibility. It's
[17:38] never going to happen. And the reason
[17:40] why is because we are
[17:43] in the ownership of our soul and body.
[17:47] We are sovereign. There is no way
[17:50] anybody can affect us anyway
[17:54] >> unless we ask for it.
[17:56] >> Interesting.
[17:57] >> So if you pray for somebody that they're
[18:00] healed, if you haven't asked them if
[18:03] that's Okay. They're not getting any
[18:06] healing out of it.
[18:07] >> Yeah.
[18:08] >> If you target them to hurt them,
[18:11] if they haven't given you permission, it
[18:14] won't you can target them till the cows
[18:16] come home. That's going to happen. This
[18:18] was the prime the primary drive behind
[18:22] the Russians unit that went on for
[18:26] 35 or 40 years.
[18:28] >> Yeah. Who who was the psychic Russian
[18:30] woman who supposedly stopped the the
[18:33] frog's heart?
[18:34] >> Oh, that's uh I
[18:37] I'm not going to be able to remember a
[18:38] name.
[18:39] >> I'll be able to in post I'll be able to
[18:40] put her up on the screen. But but yeah,
[18:42] that that was one of the things that
[18:44] that really freaked out the military
[18:46] brats, right? Because they thought if
[18:48] they can do this
[18:49] >> and we don't and we don't understand how
[18:51] any of this psychical warfare stuff
[18:54] works, that's really not a good thing,
[18:56] right? Well, uh um the problem here is
[19:00] that she was within one meter of the
[19:03] targets.
[19:03] >> Okay.
[19:04] >> So, it was an interaction between her
[19:06] body fields and whatever she was
[19:08] targeting on the table.
[19:10] >> So, do you think that's possible or
[19:12] >> Oh, sure. I mean, if if I come up behind
[19:15] you and put my hand on the back of your
[19:17] neck, then I can possibly generate an
[19:21] energy field that can do something with
[19:23] your energy field. But in terms of
[19:26] harming someone remotely,
[19:29] uh the Russ I don't know if you know
[19:31] know this, but I I went to Russia two or
[19:34] three times with Ed May,
[19:36] >> Dr. May.
[19:37] >> Mhm.
[19:37] >> And uh we we got into their unit. We
[19:41] were introduced to their psychics. Uh we
[19:44] saw their entire layout. Uh it's right
[19:48] outside of Moscow. It's a uh a DACA
[19:52] there. It's got a palis shade fence
[19:54] around it. You can't see over or see
[19:56] through it. They have two de uh
[19:59] deprivation chambers underground.
[20:03] Uh they have an operational center just
[20:05] like we had. And they also had 104
[20:08] psychics.
[20:09] >> Wow. and the 104 psychics because
[20:13] they were able to target mice and affect
[20:16] the mice. They assumed that you could
[20:19] target people and do the same thing.
[20:22] Well, first off, they could only affect
[20:25] the mice because it was a
[20:28] um it was a an experiment that had a
[20:32] giant hole in it. Okay.
[20:34] Uh while the experiment was run three
[20:37] times and worked fabulously well,
[20:41] uh the difficulty was they told the guy
[20:43] in the very beginning when the mice were
[20:46] sorted why they were sorting the mice.
[20:49] >> And what that what that man did is he
[20:52] sorted them to give them the answer they
[20:54] wanted to see at the end.
[20:56] >> He was the only psychic in the whole
[20:58] event.
[20:59] >> Okay.
[21:00] >> You understand? So, so a psychic
[21:02] essentially pre-selected the mice that
[21:04] would have a bad outcome from this
[21:06] result.
[21:06] >> Prove the bad outcome. Exactly.
[21:09] >> Because they told them why they were
[21:11] sorting them.
[21:12] >> So, it it kind of goes to the same
[21:14] problem with let's say our
[21:16] pharmaceutical companies. And our
[21:18] pharmaceutical companies sometimes we
[21:21] they will uh produce a uh a drug that's
[21:25] supposed to help and it does the exact
[21:27] opposite.
[21:28] >> Yeah. and it hurts people. So they pull
[21:31] it off the shelf and they complain,
[21:33] "Well, we just lost a billion dollars
[21:36] developing this over 12 years." Well,
[21:39] the reason why is because they have
[21:42] actual psychics operating in their lab
[21:45] >> really,
[21:45] >> but because they don't accept it as
[21:47] being true, they don't care. And it's it
[21:52] it's mistakes made in the the uh double
[21:56] blind procedure of the process.
[21:59] Uh in the case of the Russians, they
[22:02] they
[22:03] told this place that breeds mice, so
[22:07] they're all genetically the same.
[22:09] >> They said, uh we need 12 control mice
[22:12] and 12 target mice, and you should do
[22:16] that with a random generator. And when
[22:18] you get the number for whatever the
[22:21] target mice are
[22:22] >> or the control mice, just shave their
[22:24] little bellies and tattoo it on their
[22:26] their bellies, which they did. This guy
[22:30] did. And then he put them all in the
[22:31] cage and sent them to the Euro
[22:33] Mountains. They targeted the cage for
[22:36] six or seven months. And when the
[22:39] anxiety was raised on the target mice
[22:41] alone, they they said they had finished
[22:44] that they had done it. They sent the
[22:46] mice to an independent lab where they
[22:48] were check for uh the the rise in
[22:53] anxiety and it matched exactly the 10
[22:57] top I'm sorry they listed them highest
[23:01] anxiety to lowest and drew a line in the
[23:04] center 12 above 12 below. The top 12
[23:07] were all the target mice
[23:10] >> while the guy pushing the button was
[23:12] sorting them to give them target mice at
[23:16] the end.
[23:16] >> Okay.
[23:17] >> You understand?
[23:17] >> Yeah.
[23:18] >> Because they told him why he was
[23:19] sorting.
[23:21] >> They did that three times and they made
[23:23] that same mistake three times.
[23:25] >> Wow. Now in pharmaceutical company work,
[23:29] you know, they can be operating double
[23:31] blind as well, but if they tell the
[23:33] person who's supposed to be completely
[23:35] blind why they're doing something and
[23:38] they happen to be very psychic, they're
[23:40] going to give them the answer they want
[23:42] to see, not the one that's real. H. So
[23:46] on this point of psychics within
[23:48] pharmaceutical companies, are you saying
[23:51] that the outcome of the efficacy of the
[23:54] drug is unconsciously influenced? Yes.
[23:57] >> Psychically or they or they purposefully
[24:00] hire psychics who are
[24:02] >> here's the problem.
[24:03] >> Okay.
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[25:32] >> Psychics within pharmaceutical
[25:33] companies, are you saying that the
[25:36] outcome of the efficacy of the drug is
[25:39] unconsciously influenced? Yes.
[25:42] >> Psychically or they or they purposefully
[25:44] hire psychics who are
[25:46] >> here's the problem.
[25:47] >> Okay,
[25:48] >> even if it were true, I'm not going to
[25:50] believe it.
[25:52] >> So, sitting next to me is psychic as
[25:55] hell. Okay.
[25:56] >> So, he's he's setting it up so that the
[26:00] answer I want to see in a year
[26:02] >> is is the answer that's going to tell me
[26:05] that this drug works.
[26:08] >> Okay.
[26:09] >> Yeah.
[26:09] >> So, so they're kind of looping over all
[26:11] the testing.
[26:12] >> So, it's like psychic overlay sort of
[26:15] things happening. This is something you
[26:16] hear about with remote viewing
[26:18] sometimes. Like,
[26:18] >> well, human beings are all psychic. So,
[26:22] >> that's what happens. And you can deny it
[26:24] all you want, but it's going to bite you
[26:26] if you're not looking for it.
[26:29] >> How strong do you think that effect is?
[26:32] Because you could like I I've thought
[26:33] about you know if you if you go back to
[26:35] you know when humans lived in smaller
[26:37] tribal communities let's say
[26:39] >> I would think that this psychical
[26:43] bond between those people would be very
[26:45] very strong to a level where they might
[26:47] almost have a different
[26:49] >> perception of reality than a different
[26:52] >> group of people. And then I think to
[26:54] myself, is that why you have all of
[26:56] these different spiritual traditions?
[26:58] Because maybe the way
[27:00] >> different groups that were living closer
[27:02] together and closer to nature really
[27:04] were perceiving these things. But then
[27:06] when you get a really large group of
[27:08] people where you have all these
[27:09] different psychical
[27:11] >> predilictions and ideas about reality
[27:13] intermixing it, it eventually sort of
[27:16] dissolves into this one kind of
[27:19] collective blob or something. I don't
[27:21] know. You know what I'm saying?
[27:22] you you really are combining two things
[27:25] here that don't go together.
[27:27] >> Okay.
[27:27] >> Okay. The first thing is
[27:30] uh when humans were first
[27:35] arriving here as humans
[27:38] um one of the problems we had is we had
[27:40] no language. We couldn't write. We
[27:43] couldn't read. So there's no references
[27:46] that we're learning. But in order for a
[27:49] small tribe of people and they were very
[27:51] small, usually family type units
[27:54] >> Mhm.
[27:54] >> Uh they might have uh kidnapped women
[27:57] out of another tribe or something uh to
[28:00] inadvertently keep the gene pool
[28:03] cleaner. But uh these small groups of
[28:06] humans uh the men hunted, the women
[28:09] gathered. Well, you got to remember they
[28:12] were hunting and gathering in a world
[28:14] that was extremely dangerous. Uh, I
[28:17] believe the saber-tooth tiger was around
[28:19] when humans were around.
[28:20] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
[28:21] >> And haunted humans. So, and the cave
[28:24] bear. Cave bear. Average cave bear maybe
[28:28] 2,000 to 2400 lb.
[28:30] >> Yeah.
[28:31] >> You know, 13 ft tall and pretty nasty
[28:34] about which cave this is, that kind of
[28:37] thing. So, uh, in order for them to
[28:41] coordinate a hunt or coordinate
[28:43] gathering and be safe, they had to have
[28:47] some form of communication. I believe we
[28:50] were reading each other's minds back
[28:52] then that we came into the world and
[28:56] could understand by how people were
[28:59] doing what they were doing, what they
[29:02] were mean to do. Uh an example would be
[29:07] uh any other animal that's a predator, a
[29:10] cat, uh a wolf, they all can read the
[29:15] signs by the way their fur is by the way
[29:18] they
[29:18] >> they look what they look at all these
[29:21] different things. So we were ultra
[29:24] sensitive and in order to survive we are
[29:26] operated that way.
[29:28] uh you could say that that that is a
[29:32] bleedth through in the psychic world. So
[29:35] >> the problem comes in when you have that
[29:39] small tribal unit where everybody knows
[29:41] everybody and they trust everybody and
[29:44] they bring in a second tribal unit. So
[29:47] when the groups became larger. So,
[29:50] you're sitting across the fire from
[29:52] somebody one night and he's he's kind of
[29:54] given the eye to your spear and your
[29:57] woman and he's there's nothing's going
[30:00] to prevent him from coming across the
[30:02] the fire and
[30:04] >> cutting your throat or there's nothing
[30:06] to prevent you from going across the
[30:08] fire and killing him.
[30:10] >> Yeah.
[30:10] >> Well, mother nature has this way of
[30:13] fixing things otherwise he wouldn't be
[30:15] here.
[30:16] >> Yeah. And I suspect that's when we
[30:19] started getting filters of some kind
[30:22] >> installed in our in our brain maybe in
[30:26] the colossum where the information's
[30:28] transferred or what whatever.
[30:30] >> Oh yeah, the corpus colos somewhere in
[30:33] the the human mind. Uh these filters
[30:36] started making us work at getting the
[30:39] information.
[30:40] >> Do you think over time we just lost the
[30:42] capacity.
[30:43] >> Yeah. Not to like bring this to the
[30:45] most, you know, cartoonish
[30:47] conspiratorial level, but do you think
[30:49] there's any possibility that maybe it
[30:52] was selected against for humans? Like it
[30:56] was somehow externally these abilities
[31:00] were dampened by some external.
[31:03] >> I think we have them as children. I
[31:05] think we're born with them.
[31:07] >> The problem is we don't acknowledge it
[31:10] because we don't even think about it.
[31:12] What we do is we teach kids how to use
[31:15] processing, appropriate processing. What
[31:19] good processing is, what bad processing
[31:21] is. So when you expose someone to remote
[31:26] viewing, the reason and the way they
[31:28] become very very good at it over time is
[31:31] they understand that they have to uh
[31:35] unlearn the bad habits they developed at
[31:38] birth
[31:39] coming forward. So they it's really hard
[31:42] to destroy habits
[31:44] >> and replace them with new habits.
[31:46] >> Yes.
[31:47] >> But people who let's say
[31:51] um live a process where they're they're
[31:56] growing for many many years in a hostile
[31:59] area
[32:01] uh or doing a job that they could die
[32:04] doing like an undercover agent or a
[32:07] police officer undercover or something
[32:09] like that. Yeah,
[32:11] >> their psychic ability starts coming to
[32:13] the four because it's the one tool that
[32:16] they need that sorts them from anybody
[32:19] else and keeps them alive. So
[32:23] it it becomes of benefit.
[32:26] >> Definitely.
[32:26] >> Yeah.
[32:27] >> So you unlearn the bad habits and you
[32:30] relearn the new the good habits and the
[32:33] psychic power comes back.
[32:36] uh where you have scientists today in
[32:38] many cases and no way am I believing
[32:42] this psychic stuff. It's just not real.
[32:45] It's a total bizarre thing. And so
[32:49] because I refuse to acknowledge it, I of
[32:53] course am not seeing where it's bleeding
[32:55] through in some experiment or something
[32:59] else that uh is important like that
[33:03] development of a drug to cure something.
[33:07] >> Yeah, it totally makes sense that this
[33:08] is like a latent capacity that adds to
[33:11] your evolutionary fitness tremendously.
[33:14] like you you talk about this in your
[33:16] memoir, how you know how you learned to
[33:19] listen to that voice
[33:21] >> um when you were overseas, but you even
[33:22] had it from a young age growing up in a
[33:24] rough neighborhood in Miami and
[33:26] everything.
[33:27] >> Um but I I
[33:28] >> I wanted to add one additional thing.
[33:30] >> Yeah. The other part of what you started
[33:33] with, you were saying that maybe the way
[33:37] certain people fell into certain
[33:39] spiritual groups which created perhaps
[33:42] religious denominations that kind of
[33:44] thing. Um I would agree with that but
[33:49] only to a certain extent. I think the
[33:52] reason we have multiple de denominations
[33:55] and we have multiple churches and
[33:58] multiple teachings and everything has to
[34:01] do with power over humans.
[34:04] >> That's other humans having power over
[34:07] greater bodies of of humans.
[34:10] >> Definitely. um they share a common idea
[34:14] and some get it right, some get it
[34:16] wrong, but I think that's all it has to
[34:19] do with is just a job you could have
[34:22] where you're telling others
[34:24] >> Yeah. the way
[34:25] >> they're going to live.
[34:26] >> Yeah. I feel the same way about
[34:28] organized religion. And it seems like it
[34:30] always starts out from someone's direct
[34:33] experience, right? But then it grows
[34:34] into this big bureaucratic
[34:37] mechanism that eventually controls a lot
[34:39] of people and and whatever the direct
[34:41] experience is either becomes secondary
[34:43] or they try to prevent you from having
[34:45] one because they don't want you breaking
[34:46] off and starting your own thing.
[34:48] >> Yeah. I I agree and and but the problem
[34:53] is sometimes they're very good at what
[34:56] they do.
[34:57] >> Mhm.
[34:57] >> And they help people. So, you know,
[35:00] >> Yes, for sure.
[35:00] >> I
[35:02] that's fine with me. They can go have
[35:04] all the religious experiences they want.
[35:06] >> Yeah.
[35:07] >> My religion's right out the door.
[35:09] >> Yeah.
[35:09] >> You know, everything God created, it's
[35:11] right outside.
[35:12] >> Well said. Well said. So, I want to pick
[35:14] up on a little thing that you said
[35:16] before that a lot of people might might
[35:17] not have noticed, but having heard many
[35:20] of your conversations and read some of
[35:22] your books,
[35:23] >> um, you said when humans arrived here
[35:25] before when you were talking about
[35:27] >> ancient man, what did you mean by that?
[35:30] And and what is your view on because
[35:32] this gets to one of the original
[35:34] questions of you know
[35:35] >> not only what is going on here in an
[35:37] individual sense but like what is the
[35:39] human project like what what is a human
[35:41] being
[35:42] >> what are we doing here
[35:43] >> and for you I think you have an opinion
[35:45] on that question that
[35:46] >> oh yeah
[35:47] >> um
[35:49] >> uh because of the numbers of targets
[35:51] that I did in my lifetime
[35:54] >> and some of the things I looked into
[35:57] that were mysteries that the DoD wanted
[35:59] solved. M
[36:01] >> um the conclusion I came to just based
[36:04] on input
[36:06] uh input from the double blind targets
[36:10] um I have a sense that we're not
[36:12] originally from this planet. So when
[36:15] people talk about aliens, we should be
[36:17] talking about ourselves.
[36:18] >> Yeah. Uh, I think the inhabitants, the
[36:22] entities that that own this planet have
[36:26] been sharing it with us for millions of
[36:28] years. And uh, in our arrogance of
[36:31] thinking that we're the only smart thing
[36:34] on the planet,
[36:36] that's a mistake.
[36:37] >> Yeah. They they could be um they could
[36:42] completely exist and subsist on
[36:48] uh the water. They could be in the water
[36:50] 100% of the time. That's where I would
[36:53] be if I own this planet.
[36:56] >> Yeah. You hear that there's a tremendous
[36:58] amount of UFO activity coming out of the
[37:00] deep ocean
[37:01] >> and there's 65% of our planet is water.
[37:04] So,
[37:06] uh, no, I wouldn't be on the surface of
[37:09] the earth with 65% water. Um, that that
[37:14] would be, I think, an error. But,
[37:17] >> yeah.
[37:17] >> Uh,
[37:18] >> and even now that deep the deep deep
[37:20] water is so inhospitable to humans. We,
[37:22] I mean, we have to, you know, these like
[37:26] extraordinarily strong airtight
[37:29] containers and, you know, it's people
[37:31] still die doing that. It's incredibly
[37:33] dangerous work to go down to the deep
[37:35] ocean and try to explore down there. So
[37:37] yeah, if you could figure out how to be
[37:39] comfortable down there, you could stay
[37:42] hidden very
[37:44] >> you're in a machine you built that you
[37:46] hope can withstand
[37:49] 150,000 lbs per cubic centimeter or
[37:53] something
[37:54] uh and survive
[37:56] where in their case they probably live
[38:00] there because they've developed a way of
[38:02] creating a place within a place.
[38:05] >> Yeah. In other words, they're not even
[38:07] in that reality.
[38:09] >> They're in a different reality bubble of
[38:12] some kind. Um, it's kind of like
[38:17] how how did they get here in the first
[38:19] place?
[38:20] You know, uh they might this might be
[38:24] the true inhabitants of Earth might be
[38:27] from another Earth somewhere around
[38:29] another star
[38:31] and getting here required
[38:34] uh not not travel by spaceship.
[38:37] >> Yeah.
[38:38] >> Uh for a lot of reasons. You got cosmic
[38:42] radiation. You've got uh the need for
[38:45] fuel. You got the need for speed. You
[38:48] got the need. It's one thing after
[38:50] another that complicates it,
[38:53] >> but I think just jumping from one star
[38:56] to the other and instantaneously is the
[39:00] only way we're ever going to achieve it.
[39:02] >> Yeah.
[39:02] >> Um,
[39:04] >> also I think that that's true from the
[39:08] very standpoint that statistically
[39:10] there's 700 billion billion stars out
[39:14] there.
[39:15] You know, it's it's like ridiculous to
[39:18] think we're the only intelligent and
[39:20] >> absolutely. And then you bring in the
[39:22] the further complexity of another thing
[39:25] every mystical tradition agreed on is is
[39:28] this physical realm is kind of like a
[39:29] veneer on the surface of the a much
[39:32] deeper reality where are these you know
[39:34] whether you're looking at you know the
[39:36] eastern um tradition you're talking
[39:38] about devas or uh you know in the the
[39:41] Greco Roman tradition you're talking
[39:43] about angels donese different levels of
[39:46] deities and you know the from a modern
[39:50] perspective people like John He'll come
[39:51] in with the ultraterrestrial hypothesis.
[39:53] They're talking about there are these
[39:55] extended layers of reality. We don't
[39:57] know how to sense. And if you're trying
[40:00] to explain UFOs from a nuts andbolts
[40:02] perspective, you're never going to get
[40:03] it because these things are not
[40:04] primarily physical to begin. So, and you
[40:07] add all of that with the many billions
[40:09] of stars and yeah, trying to figure out
[40:11] what might be going on here is is so
[40:14] complicated.
[40:14] >> Yeah. And and these entities, I'm sure,
[40:17] are half a million years ahead of us.
[40:21] Yeah.
[40:21] >> So,
[40:22] >> so we this idea that we are not
[40:25] originally from here and and you said
[40:28] the the DoD wanted to know this. Can you
[40:31] can you show
[40:31] >> I didn't want to know that specifically.
[40:33] >> Okay. Okay.
[40:34] >> They
[40:34] >> something you gleaned
[40:35] >> I don't I don't have a clue what they
[40:37] were really after. Okay. Um I was here
[40:40] working with Bob Monroe for a long
[40:43] weekends for quite a few months. Uh I
[40:47] was tasked with being with uh needing to
[40:51] learn how to generate an out of body.
[40:54] >> Yeah.
[40:54] >> And go to a target in the out of body
[40:56] state.
[40:57] >> Uh sounds easy if you can generate an
[41:00] out of body. It's not. Especially when
[41:04] you're doing blind targets. Uh they can
[41:06] show you a building and say nothing
[41:08] about it in a photograph.
[41:11] But finding that building, the out of
[41:12] body state might take two and a half
[41:15] weeks of generating out of bodies. Wow.
[41:18] >> And looking because you don't know where
[41:20] it is.
[41:21] >> Yeah.
[41:21] >> Um finding it, it then becomes a uh
[41:25] significant problem in whether or not
[41:28] you can actually enter that building in
[41:31] the out body state because you don't
[41:33] know if you can or can't. So there's a
[41:35] lot of things you have to try.
[41:37] >> Mhm. and and then when you finally are
[41:40] able to enter it and apply it to some
[41:45] targeted area and learn about it and
[41:49] bring it back and try to replicate it
[41:51] was sketching and drawing.
[41:53] >> Yeah,
[41:53] >> there's that deficiencies,
[41:55] >> right?
[41:55] >> And within that whole matrix of action
[41:58] over I think it took uh three and a half
[42:02] weeks to do one target. That's inc. I
[42:05] mean,
[42:05] >> yeah,
[42:06] >> to me it's absolutely incredible because
[42:08] I've I've only ever had one OBBE. It was
[42:10] here actually the last day of my gateway
[42:14] retreat.
[42:15] >> I didn't think I was I was coming even
[42:17] close. The closest I got is, you know,
[42:19] they're trying to train you to feel
[42:21] these waves and vibrations and stuff.
[42:24] >> I felt that. I definitely felt that and
[42:26] I convinced myself, yeah, I'm I'm
[42:28] feeling that. I'm feeling that. But for
[42:30] me, it was totally I tell people I
[42:32] slipped on a banana peel and wound up
[42:34] out of my body because it was literally
[42:37] like I was doing a really one of the
[42:38] really long meditations like hour
[42:40] hourish long one where you're going
[42:42] through each focus level.
[42:43] >> Yeah.
[42:44] >> I clicked out.
[42:45] >> Suddenly I was having an incredibly
[42:47] lucid experience where I was just
[42:48] standing in a different room
[42:50] >> and I was looking out a window and to
[42:52] this day I don't know if it's a window
[42:54] of a place that's really here or
[42:56] somewhere else. And then I started
[42:58] going, "How the hell did I get to this
[42:59] room?"
[43:00] >> Right?
[43:00] >> And I'm like,
[43:02] >> "No, wait. I'm meditating." And as soon
[43:03] as I thought that, I was back in the bed
[43:05] and the vibrations were going crazy.
[43:08] >> And I tried to sit up and I went,
[43:09] "Whoop!" And the fear hit really strong
[43:13] >> and I just started panicking. And in the
[43:15] back of my mind, I was like, "At least
[43:16] turn around and look at yourself."
[43:18] >> Yeah. What was giving you the fear?
[43:20] >> You know, it's it wasn't intellectual. I
[43:22] I tell people it was like, you know,
[43:25] imagine I was telling you about water,
[43:27] but you never have been swimming.
[43:29] >> Okay.
[43:30] >> Versus I I just throw you in the water,
[43:32] right? It's like that it's just so
[43:34] different than what you think it's going
[43:35] to be
[43:36] >> that I just and and I couldn't control
[43:38] it. So, it was just it was
[43:39] >> it just felt like this rush of vibrating
[43:42] energy that was coming up and I couldn't
[43:44] control it and everything in me started
[43:47] to go like get no this is bad. I mean,
[43:49] it's cartoonishly like what Bob talks
[43:52] about in his first book where he freaked
[43:54] out when he first went out of body. It
[43:55] was the same kind of fear, just like an
[43:57] existential
[43:58] >> kind of fear. And that's the only time
[44:00] I've ever I've ever done it.
[44:03] >> The uh what what's fascinating to me is
[44:08] that there is a distinct difference in
[44:12] who we think we are when we're in our
[44:14] bodies versus out of our bodies. And
[44:17] when we're out of body, if let's say
[44:20] it's the third time or the fourth time
[44:23] and you you become adept at being able
[44:25] to do it. Okay. So, at that point when
[44:30] you're backing out,
[44:32] um there's a crystal chandelier hanging
[44:34] from the ceiling and you back into the
[44:36] crystal chandelier. It's a distraction
[44:39] of major gargantuan
[44:41] interference because now you're like,
[44:44] "Oh, yeah."
[44:47] >> You could spend hours in that crystal sh
[44:50] cuz the perceptions are so completely
[44:52] different.
[44:53] >> Yeah.
[44:54] >> Um when I did find the target they
[44:56] wanted me to find, I uh had to pass
[45:00] through a a vault door. It was like a
[45:02] bank vault door. So, it's very thick
[45:05] steel, maybe 6 in deep. And as I was
[45:09] passing through that, I could actually
[45:12] feel the interaction of my molecules
[45:16] with the steel molecules and it felt
[45:19] really weird.
[45:20] >> And so, I'm I'm now inside the the
[45:23] thing, but I'm looking at that vault
[45:26] door and I'm like, that was really cool.
[45:29] So, I passed through it going out.
[45:31] I pass through it coming in and pass
[45:34] through it going out. So I probably
[45:36] spent 45 minutes playing with a door.
[45:39] >> Wow.
[45:39] >> You know, and then it was like, well,
[45:42] wake up and I'm back in my body. It's
[45:44] like
[45:44] >> So, and this is why I even brought my
[45:46] own story up is because I can't imagine
[45:49] controlling that, let alone going and
[45:53] targeting something where I don't even
[45:54] know where it is. Because if I'm
[45:56] assuming the way they're tasking is
[45:58] >> do you know that all blind?
[46:00] >> It's all blind. Yeah. So, you don't even
[46:01] know geographically where you're going.
[46:03] You're following this nebulous psychical
[46:06] sense to get there. But is there is
[46:09] there still a sense of like traveling or
[46:12] are you just there once you home?
[46:14] >> You're just there, but it's a sense that
[46:16] you just got you just there from a long
[46:19] way away.
[46:21] >> Okay. Um
[46:25] to really make a long story short, it
[46:27] took three and a half weeks to do one
[46:29] target. It took me uh probably 30 plus
[46:33] out of bodies, controlled out of bodies
[46:36] I had to generate and use.
[46:39] And the results of my
[46:42] uh what happened and what I reported
[46:46] were
[46:48] somewhat esoteric to a certain degree
[46:51] because of the feelings I was having in
[46:53] the processing.
[46:55] So when everything's said and done,
[46:57] remote viewing, I can get to a target in
[47:00] 3 minutes, you know, it's over. So why
[47:04] go out of body?
[47:05] >> Yeah. Yeah. Unless there's something
[47:08] something else you can perceive or
[47:11] experience through through that versus
[47:13] remote viewing.
[47:14] >> I I gave him their answer and uh they
[47:18] came back two weeks later and said um
[47:22] you don't mind if we ask you some
[47:24] questions? I said no. And he said where
[47:26] did you take high energy physics? And I
[47:28] said I didn't.
[47:29] >> Yeah. Because you drew this device,
[47:31] right, that you Yeah. I' I've
[47:33] >> That sort of thing. So, so yeah, an
[47:36] independent agency said they could
[47:38] duplicate it.
[47:41] It It aggravated me. It, you know, it's
[47:43] like when they start asking you a lot of
[47:45] questions that don't make any sense, you
[47:48] get the feeling like uh they didn't
[47:49] believe anything I did. So,
[47:52] >> it made me want to like it made me want
[47:54] to give them more about this target than
[47:57] they asked for.
[47:58] >> Yeah.
[47:59] >> So, you Yeah.
[48:00] >> It was a It was a copper wire driven
[48:03] target. So, I turned it into an object
[48:06] that uses light fiber
[48:09] >> and I put it all on an acrylic block so
[48:11] it could be cooled with liquid nitrogen
[48:13] running through it, you know, little
[48:15] channels in there. And then I went out
[48:18] and found uh slow build react uh
[48:22] transistors, things like that to make it
[48:26] operate even more efficiently, quicker.
[48:29] and uh drew that, rolled it up, sent it
[48:33] to the same people, and they showed up
[48:35] the next morning and tore the top off my
[48:38] drafting table in case I had pressed
[48:41] through too hard.
[48:42] >> And that's the only time I signed on uh
[48:46] NDA.
[48:47] >> Wow. So, yeah. So, for people that don't
[48:49] know this context, you got asked to
[48:51] remote view this nebulous thing on the
[48:54] other side of some vault door
[48:56] >> and it ended up being this device.
[48:58] You're known for your amazing drawing
[48:59] abilities. So you you draw this thing to
[49:02] the nth degree of precision and it
[49:05] actually made these people freak out
[49:07] because you were so precise in your
[49:09] drawing that they did not want they
[49:11] immediately like basically either
[49:13] classified or took your drawing. Right.
[49:16] >> Well they they took the they took the
[49:18] original drawing but then wanted to know
[49:22] do did I take the high energy physics?
[49:24] going to hierogeny phys uh energy
[49:27] physicist. Uh where do you check your
[49:30] library books out? You know, all this
[49:32] crap that says basically to me,
[49:34] >> we don't believe you really like you
[49:36] made this up.
[49:37] >> You made a good guess. Um
[49:40] >> and so I had to do something to get to
[49:43] get that out of their head. And the way
[49:45] I did that is I just said I made it from
[49:48] copper wire to light fiber and I crush
[49:51] it down about the size of a package of
[49:54] cigarettes when before it was maybe this
[49:57] size.
[49:58] >> Mhm.
[49:59] >> And now it's 10,000 times faster and
[50:02] more efficient. And uh I drew that and
[50:06] sent it to the same people.
[50:08] >> Yeah.
[50:08] >> And they showed up the next day and tore
[50:10] the top off in drafting jail.
[50:12] >> So do you have a sense of what this was?
[50:14] Was it like a directed energy thing?
[50:16] >> Oh, I know exactly what it was.
[50:17] >> Psychotronic thing. What What do you
[50:18] think it was?
[50:20] >> I know exactly what it was, but I can't
[50:22] talk about
[50:22] >> Okay. Am I on the right track?
[50:25] >> Yeah. I signed the NDA.
[50:27] >> Okay. Now, normally I wouldn't if when I
[50:30] was active duty,
[50:33] uh, I had some targets that were very
[50:35] questionable and, uh, I refuse to sign
[50:39] the NDAs because I was a advisor to a
[50:43] three star that in the army that was in
[50:46] charge of all intelligence for the army.
[50:49] >> So, if I signed an NDA, I wouldn't be
[50:51] able to talk to him about something. And
[50:54] I used that as the excuse for not
[50:56] signing. And uh that really got to some
[51:00] people that I just refused adamantly.
[51:03] Um I think that upsets him because he
[51:07] didn't know what I might or might not
[51:09] talk about.
[51:09] >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that that's
[51:12] another thing you hear a lot with people
[51:13] who do what you do and came out of the
[51:16] Stargate program is that they,
[51:18] >> you know, well, one of two things. is
[51:20] they they get asked to do off the books
[51:23] jobs for people that sound very
[51:24] interesting but then they can't say
[51:26] certain details.
[51:27] >> Um but then also
[51:30] >> clearly you'd want to go check out
[51:31] esoteric or you know mysterious topics
[51:34] for yourself to because you're just
[51:35] curious, right?
[51:36] >> Yeah.
[51:37] >> Um
[51:39] >> so I guess in in the spirit of that,
[51:42] >> what is like an example of that that
[51:44] that you're allowed to share since it's
[51:46] well it sounds like that's the only NDA
[51:47] you you signed. So hopefully you can
[51:49] share,
[51:50] >> but what what's an example of something
[51:51] that that you looked into that really
[51:55] surprised you or like changed your
[51:56] understanding of of one of these big
[51:58] topics? Cuz it sounds like for for
[52:00] instance, you know, h human origins
[52:02] sounded like something changed your your
[52:05] opinion of that one.
[52:06] >> Well, yeah. Um human origins, we didn't
[52:11] fall out of trees. We weren't monkeys.
[52:14] Yeah.
[52:14] >> Uh we we're more like a small animal
[52:17] that lived next to water.
[52:19] >> And we we engineered our our lives to
[52:23] operate either in one one area or the
[52:26] other. In other words, we could survive
[52:28] on the land next to the sea or we could
[52:32] survive in the sea next to the land.
[52:35] >> The our predators that we were being
[52:37] victimized by, however, they either had
[52:40] to be in one or the other. So if they
[52:43] were waterborn predators, we spent time,
[52:47] you know, away on the beach to defend
[52:51] ourselves. If they were landbased
[52:53] predators, we spent more time in the
[52:55] water than not.
[52:56] >> Yeah.
[52:56] >> It's the reason why there were virtually
[53:00] no remnants of human, you know, before
[53:03] we were human because the water would be
[53:07] a very powerful destructive force or
[53:09] anything left. Um and but the
[53:15] the real the real answer I think um has
[53:20] to do with uh
[53:23] uh has to do with the longevity of how
[53:25] we've been how how long we've been
[53:27] around.
[53:28] >> Mhm.
[53:29] >> And I think we've actually been on this
[53:31] planet
[53:32] for somewhere around 20 million years.
[53:36] >> Wow.
[53:37] >> Yeah. As humans as we are now. So, if
[53:40] I'm understanding you correctly, it
[53:42] seems like you
[53:44] believe or suspect there was some kind
[53:46] of outside manipulation of an existing
[53:49] >> Absolutely.
[53:49] >> animal, and that's essentially what gave
[53:52] rise to to humans.
[53:53] >> It's and I think they're the ones the
[53:56] entities that rescued us in a sense and
[54:00] brought us here also left us with a
[54:04] certain degree of rules or a certain
[54:08] layer of rules. so that we could uh
[54:11] continue to thrive.
[54:14] Uh but I think they have an expectation
[54:16] that we would mature over time
[54:19] in a specific way.
[54:21] >> Yeah.
[54:22] >> I don't think we did. And as a result,
[54:25] they well we we can't we can't let
[54:28] humans continue, but we don't want to
[54:30] eradicate them, so we'll just knock them
[54:32] back to sticks and stones. And the last
[54:35] time we had that kick back to sticks and
[54:38] stones was a great flood.
[54:39] >> Yeah.
[54:40] >> And it's recorded on every continent.
[54:42] >> Yes, it is.
[54:43] >> That the time before that was probably a
[54:45] seven or 10 10 mile wide asteroid that
[54:49] created the Gulf of Mexico. Uh the third
[54:53] time was probably way back and involved
[54:57] uh something having to do with
[55:00] significant climate of some kind where
[55:03] we couldn't grow food and that knocked
[55:07] us back to sticks and stones. You can
[55:10] only go so far back and now you can't
[55:12] build a manufacturing plant. There's so
[55:15] many things you can't do.
[55:17] >> Yeah. that you have to uh just survive
[55:22] in some way. So,
[55:25] I think we've been doing that.
[55:27] >> Yeah. We've been going through some
[55:28] period of time.
[55:30] >> And what I I've been trying to figure
[55:32] out what it is that we need to mature to
[55:34] that we haven't matured for.
[55:36] >> Yeah. And I suspect it has to do with
[55:40] the fact that in maturing alone we have
[55:44] refused to abdicate our
[55:49] uh our power as humans to do whatever we
[55:52] want.
[55:52] >> Right.
[55:53] >> So new discoveries, what's the first
[55:56] thing we do? We make a weapon.
[55:58] >> Yeah.
[55:58] >> That we can get a leg up on other humans
[56:01] with. Okay.
[56:03] So
[56:04] that's cool for survival on this planet
[56:07] as human, but if we ever want to meet
[56:11] other entities in the cosmos, and I
[56:13] think there's literally millions of
[56:15] them, then we're going to have to reach
[56:19] a point of maturity where when we have a
[56:22] discovery and we can make a terrible
[56:24] weapon out of it,
[56:25] >> we stop and think and come to the
[56:28] conclusion that no, this is something we
[56:31] could live without
[56:33] and in other words we don't continue to
[56:36] pursue it. Um that's a level of maturity
[56:39] I think you have to have to join the the
[56:43] crowd.
[56:44] >> I Yeah, that resonates with
[56:46] >> otherwise you're a threat.
[56:48] >> Yeah.
[56:48] >> And and we became a threat at the same
[56:52] time you have the first two UFOs
[56:55] appearing on the planet. That was the
[56:58] first detonation of an atomic weapon on
[57:02] Trinity site, New Mexico.
[57:04] >> Mhm. Yeah. The Trinity. Yeah.
[57:05] >> And right afterwards, there were a
[57:08] couple UFOs showed up. Since then,
[57:10] anything that that improves, creates, or
[57:15] widens the possibility of the use of
[57:18] nuclear weapons,
[57:20] same thing. More UFOs show up.
[57:22] >> Yes. And and that is a really
[57:24] interesting part of the modern kind of
[57:26] disclosure.
[57:27] >> Yeah.
[57:28] >> Story that I think is a really
[57:29] compelling one because it seems like
[57:30] it's very well documented. There's that
[57:33] >> there's a book called UFOs and Nukes
[57:35] actually by a guy named Hastings
[57:37] >> that is just like exhaustively
[57:39] documented and like receipts you know
[57:42] this person this time this this location
[57:44] and it's over and over and over again.
[57:46] It's it seems to be a real pattern
[57:48] >> and there's kind of two ways to
[57:49] interpret that. Like one way is they're
[57:52] benevolent and they're trying to say,
[57:54] "Hey guys, you need to shut this down."
[57:56] Like no, like or or they're there
[57:59] >> to to like assess threats, right,
[58:02] against them. What What do you think is
[58:04] going on there?
[58:05] >> I
[58:07] I I think we're being monitored.
[58:09] >> Yeah.
[58:10] >> As long as we're a threat, we're being
[58:12] monitored. So I if you got to kind of
[58:15] look at it this way, as long as we can't
[58:17] get off this planet,
[58:20] we're we're not as great a threat.
[58:22] >> Yeah.
[58:23] >> Okay. They can control us if we can't
[58:25] get off this planet. So if we uh if we
[58:30] are looking for a way of uh meeting
[58:33] other entities, the best way would be to
[58:35] learn how to do that jump from one star
[58:38] to another, then you don't even need a
[58:41] spaceship. Okay. you're going from one
[58:43] atmosphere to the other atmosphere.
[58:46] >> Um, if if we can learn to do that,
[58:49] that's when we become a really dynamic
[58:52] threat because then it's uh if we travel
[58:57] from here to some other star, some other
[59:01] star with a planet like Earth around it,
[59:04] >> there's going to be entities on it. And
[59:07] uh we're going to be exceptionally
[59:08] dangerous cuz we're not going to make
[59:10] that jump without a 20 megat ton in the
[59:13] back room.
[59:13] >> Right.
[59:14] >> You know that that's true.
[59:17] >> And and right now we're coming into a
[59:19] period of time where we're adding
[59:22] >> a uh a booster to our intellect which is
[59:26] called AI. Okay.
[59:29] uh that booster may prevent the design
[59:34] the design and construction of that
[59:38] capability to leap. So,
[59:42] >> uh I'm I'm concerned because the the
[59:45] ratio of UFOs that are being reported
[59:49] now and UAPs and all kinds of UFOs, I
[59:52] mean, they're all over the place
[59:54] >> and the and the numbers are growing.
[59:57] That must mean we're getting really
[59:59] close to that point where we're going to
[1:00:01] be a threat again. And uh if if that
[1:00:05] happens, well,
[1:00:08] uh break out the grass skirts and the
[1:00:11] the the
[1:00:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can I can see the
[1:00:15] benevolent version and the malevolent
[1:00:17] version because there's um there's an
[1:00:19] author I I love named Peter Levenda
[1:00:21] who's who's done a ton of research in
[1:00:23] this area and he points out how if you
[1:00:26] go back into a lot of the biblical
[1:00:29] stories and a lot of the ancient
[1:00:31] Mesopotamian stories,
[1:00:33] >> things like the flood or the Tower of
[1:00:35] Babel, if you read closely,
[1:00:37] >> they they don't destroy to teach us a
[1:00:39] lesson. They destroy when we're
[1:00:41] encroaching on a territory that they
[1:00:43] don't like.
[1:00:44] >> If you're getting too close to this, we
[1:00:46] don't like that. So, we're going to take
[1:00:47] it down.
[1:00:48] >> And and if you view that not as a
[1:00:50] benevolent god, but as someone that's or
[1:00:52] some presence that's very advanced and
[1:00:54] is monitoring us, it kind of fits, you
[1:00:57] know, and I'm not saying I necessarily
[1:00:59] believe that, but it it does make sense.
[1:01:02] It's it's not it's not a illogical
[1:01:04] argument.
[1:01:05] >> No. And you can't blame them.
[1:01:08] >> Yeah. I mean it but that it does have a
[1:01:12] good side to it. It implies that they
[1:01:16] don't want to eradicate us completely,
[1:01:19] >> right?
[1:01:19] >> They see some value in us.
[1:01:22] >> I don't know what that is yet. I'm still
[1:01:24] working on that. But
[1:01:26] >> uh but but they still do consider us a
[1:01:30] terrible threat. It's the very thing we
[1:01:32] do with the our enemies, you know, the
[1:01:34] Russians, Chinese,
[1:01:36] >> when in fact, uh, I don't think they're
[1:01:41] we're as much a threat as they would
[1:01:44] think. Um,
[1:01:47] uh, I I have a lot of trouble with the
[1:01:50] idea that the Chinese are out to get us.
[1:01:54] >> I think they they have a significant
[1:01:56] problem on their own. They they have to
[1:01:59] control two billion people.
[1:02:01] >> Yes.
[1:02:02] >> Across a planet across the uh a country
[1:02:08] that spans half the world. And
[1:02:12] uh that's getting to be more and more
[1:02:14] difficult because freedoms to do things
[1:02:17] like make more money
[1:02:21] um is encroaching on their ability to
[1:02:23] control.
[1:02:25] uh you know they can still do business
[1:02:27] in in Singapore or Hong Kong
[1:02:31] uh that kind of thing and negotiate in
[1:02:34] money and spend and buy money.
[1:02:37] But that creates a whole different
[1:02:39] class. And so the guy growing the rice
[1:02:42] that keeps this guy from being hungry,
[1:02:45] that guy growing the rice is not making
[1:02:48] anything at all. And you can't even get
[1:02:50] to his village without a motorcycle
[1:02:52] because there's no infrastructure.
[1:02:55] So, it's just a matter of time. Yeah.
[1:02:59] And you'll see China break up into a
[1:03:01] whole lot of different states, you know,
[1:03:03] with individual wars and all that kind
[1:03:06] of stuff.
[1:03:06] >> Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I don't want to get too
[1:03:08] into geopolitics, but it is it is really
[1:03:10] interesting because we, you know, we
[1:03:13] look at a country like China and it's
[1:03:16] crazy how it almost has separated into
[1:03:18] two different universes cuz you have
[1:03:21] these super advanced cities that you
[1:03:22] look at and you're like, whoa, we don't
[1:03:23] even have one city like that.
[1:03:25] >> And then they also still have hundreds
[1:03:27] and hundreds of millions of people who
[1:03:29] are living like in these incredibly
[1:03:32] rural basic lifestyles at the same time.
[1:03:35] It's crazy. Um, so back to the the the
[1:03:40] question about, you know, whatever's
[1:03:42] largely going on here, we should point
[1:03:44] out that we're in Bob's cabin
[1:03:47] >> the day before his 111th birthday, by
[1:03:50] the way.
[1:03:50] >> Oh, that's right.
[1:03:51] >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
[1:03:52] >> Um,
[1:03:53] >> and that's why I'm out here for this
[1:03:54] event um that's taking place uh you
[1:03:57] know, this coming this coming together
[1:03:58] event. So, it's really I do want to just
[1:04:00] acknowledge it's really cool to be in
[1:04:02] here with you in Bob's cabin even even
[1:04:04] having this conversation cuz I'm sure
[1:04:06] you and Bob had a lot of conversations
[1:04:08] like this.
[1:04:09] >> Oh, yeah.
[1:04:09] >> Over the years.
[1:04:10] >> His office is in the other wing, but
[1:04:14] >> uh it's basically an L-shaped cabin. The
[1:04:17] uh logs are original American chestnut,
[1:04:20] so they're somewhere in neighborhood of
[1:04:22] 300 300 thou 300 Yeah. 300 years to
[1:04:29] 350 years old.
[1:04:30] >> Cool.
[1:04:31] >> And uh they're all as good as the day
[1:04:33] that they were cut and used. Uh they
[1:04:37] were all part of a a stable for mules.
[1:04:41] >> And it was in a ravine down here on one
[1:04:44] of the lots that he was trying to sell.
[1:04:46] And the guy that was buying the lot
[1:04:48] said, "I really hate that building.
[1:04:50] could get that scummy building off my my
[1:04:54] lot and I'll buy it. And so Bob told the
[1:04:58] manager, the farm manager and me, he
[1:05:00] said, "Lose the building." So we went
[1:05:03] down there. We started pulling the
[1:05:05] plywood off. We found these logs.
[1:05:07] >> Oh, nice.
[1:05:08] >> And so we we measured every log and I
[1:05:11] numbered them all and then uh drew a
[1:05:14] plan for the cabin.
[1:05:16] >> Wow. So you planned this cabin?
[1:05:17] >> Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Cool. drew the actual
[1:05:20] drawings and everything.
[1:05:21] >> Amazing.
[1:05:22] >> And uh I and the farm manager put it
[1:05:25] together. And the fireplace behind
[1:05:29] behind you here, that stone fire, all
[1:05:32] the stones came off this property.
[1:05:35] >> All the pine in the floor was taken to a
[1:05:38] lumber yard and cut from trees off the
[1:05:40] property.
[1:05:41] >> So there's I mean
[1:05:43] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[1:05:44] >> So you Yeah. This place is like in your
[1:05:46] in your bones basically.
[1:05:47] >> Exactly. Um, returning to the topic of
[1:05:50] these conversations with Bob, you know,
[1:05:52] it like I hear I hear a lot of his
[1:05:56] >> you you guys I'm assuming probably
[1:05:57] influenced each other's philosophies to
[1:06:00] some degree
[1:06:01] >> because you were some degree. Yeah.
[1:06:02] >> Yeah. But were there any things that you
[1:06:04] guys would disagree on?
[1:06:08] >> Yeah, there's a lot of things we
[1:06:10] disagreed on. Um, and and a lot of
[1:06:14] people asked me, "You must have been
[1:06:15] really hard to work with." And I said,
[1:06:17] "Yeah, absolutely." He was difficult.
[1:06:20] >> But then anybody who's creative is going
[1:06:22] to be difficult.
[1:06:24] >> Yeah.
[1:06:24] >> Because the the idea that you have to
[1:06:27] make decisions good and bad
[1:06:31] uh in answer to some things that are
[1:06:33] good or bad, is going to put you at odds
[1:06:36] with somebody.
[1:06:38] Uh in this case, I was trying to protect
[1:06:41] him from the people he was
[1:06:44] >> selling lots to. Okay.
[1:06:46] >> And in in close proximity to the uh the
[1:06:50] center and then at some point they came
[1:06:54] and uh wanted to put a gas pipeline
[1:06:56] through here. I think right just up the
[1:07:00] hill here maybe 200 m. And uh everybody
[1:07:04] was fighting it. Uh from where the gas
[1:07:08] pipe came into the state of Virginia to
[1:07:11] here, which it had not been inserted
[1:07:14] here yet. Um everybody was fighting it.
[1:07:18] They didn't like it. And uh I thought,
[1:07:22] uh well, if they can't get rid of it
[1:07:26] now, I'm going to have to do something
[1:07:27] about it. So, I asked for arbitration
[1:07:31] and I went up the the road back here. Uh
[1:07:36] there's a road just close proximity over
[1:07:38] here and it's called Rocky Road. And I
[1:07:42] went up Rocky Road and I found a hunt
[1:07:44] club just a little ways up, maybe half a
[1:07:47] mile. And I drove up to talk to the the
[1:07:51] guys in the hook club. And uh it turns
[1:07:54] out I got there in a two-wheel drive
[1:07:57] car.
[1:07:58] And if they put the pipeline through
[1:08:01] here, they would have to build an entire
[1:08:03] elevator section where they lift the
[1:08:05] trucks and the pipe
[1:08:07] >> up the side of the mountain. So during
[1:08:10] arbitration, I argued with them to the
[1:08:13] point of exhaustion. And then I said,
[1:08:16] "You know, it would have been a lot
[1:08:17] easier if you just used the road and
[1:08:19] drove up." And they said, "What road?"
[1:08:23] And I told him, and it turns out,
[1:08:26] um, when when the lawyer, the head
[1:08:29] lawyer said, "Who who do you talk to
[1:08:32] about this?" I said, "Your head
[1:08:33] engineer."
[1:08:35] But he said, "We can't do that. It's set
[1:08:37] in stone. Everything's set in stone."
[1:08:40] And he was sitting right there in front
[1:08:41] of me when I said it. So she asked him
[1:08:46] if that was true and he said, "Yeah, but
[1:08:48] you told me to respond. It's set in
[1:08:51] stone if anybody wanted to change
[1:08:53] things."
[1:08:54] >> Right. Of course.
[1:08:54] >> Yeah.
[1:08:55] >> Yeah.
[1:08:55] >> So, well, we took a day break and the
[1:08:59] arbitrator who was a judge.
[1:09:02] >> Mhm.
[1:09:02] >> U let them go and see this other road.
[1:09:06] They came back and immediately switched.
[1:09:09] It was cheaper.
[1:09:10] >> Yeah. You know, so so I learned a long
[1:09:13] time ago, especially in the military,
[1:09:16] >> if you know you're going to be butting
[1:09:18] heads with somebody, you don't ever go
[1:09:20] in the front door,
[1:09:21] >> right?
[1:09:21] >> You go in the back door.
[1:09:22] >> Make it seem like it's their idea.
[1:09:24] >> Exactly. You give them something they
[1:09:26] really want better or something that
[1:09:30] they believe they fixed and drop it like
[1:09:34] a drop it like a rock and everything's
[1:09:36] fine.
[1:09:37] >> Yeah. when you when you would have these
[1:09:40] conversational or philosophical
[1:09:42] conversations with Bob,
[1:09:44] >> um you eventually, you know, this gets
[1:09:48] into something I was just talking to to
[1:09:50] Paul from Monroe on the drive over here
[1:09:52] eventually, but I'll I'll save that for
[1:09:53] a second. But um you eventually
[1:09:56] experienced some things that sound very
[1:10:00] similar to things Bob talked about in
[1:10:02] some of his books. And I'm thinking
[1:10:03] specifically about your your second NDE,
[1:10:06] I believe it was, when you were having
[1:10:07] the heart surgery
[1:10:09] >> where you experienced this like luminous
[1:10:12] >> light being. You you you talk a lot
[1:10:14] about the first NDE in Germany, but I
[1:10:16] feel like you talk about the second one
[1:10:17] less. Would you mind sharing that story?
[1:10:20] >> Well, yeah. The the reason why is the
[1:10:22] the one that was in Austria, actually.
[1:10:24] The one
[1:10:25] >> the one in Europe was the most profound
[1:10:29] near-death experience I ever had. I had
[1:10:31] a number of them. Um, when you spend 30
[1:10:36] 33 months in combat areas, that happens.
[1:10:39] But
[1:10:42] uh when I retired from the military and
[1:10:46] I moved here, what most people don't
[1:10:48] know was in Stargate, I was one of the
[1:10:51] original six that uh they they went out
[1:10:55] and found that they believe could do
[1:10:58] what uh what we were being trained to
[1:11:00] do. So
[1:11:03] um I at the time I was an advisor to the
[1:11:06] three star that ran all intelligence in
[1:11:09] the army.
[1:11:09] >> Was this double line?
[1:11:11] >> Uh no at that time it was a general
[1:11:13] Roya. There were they replaced the
[1:11:17] general like every 3 to 5 years. So
[1:11:20] until I got out of the military there
[1:11:22] were three or four different generals.
[1:11:25] It started with General Roya and then a
[1:11:27] general Smith then a general
[1:11:31] Sam remembers his name right now, but
[1:11:33] >> yeah,
[1:11:33] >> string of general. And I was uh my
[1:11:36] office is directly over them and
[1:11:39] whenever they had a problem, I would go
[1:11:41] and report and they'd tell me what they
[1:11:43] needed.
[1:11:45] And so um what what happened is uh
[1:11:50] General Roya uh was asked to take
[1:11:54] authority or to take managerial
[1:11:57] authority over the Stargate program. It
[1:12:00] was actually called Gondola Wish.
[1:12:03] >> We had just found out that the Russians
[1:12:05] were using psychics.
[1:12:08] >> Had no idea how good or how bad they
[1:12:10] were. So, uh, when that happens, you
[1:12:14] have to determine threat, and that's
[1:12:16] done with a like a two-year project. You
[1:12:19] go out and you find people who can be
[1:12:22] trained to do what they claim they're
[1:12:24] doing, or you find people that can learn
[1:12:29] to do it to a better extent than others.
[1:12:32] And then, uh, you send them out in the
[1:12:35] world. You train train them a little bit
[1:12:37] or let them practice until they become
[1:12:39] competent and then you send them out in
[1:12:42] the world, but you target your own
[1:12:43] stuff. And then after about 6 months to
[1:12:47] a year in the field collecting
[1:12:49] intelligence or data against our own
[1:12:53] targets, you bring them back in. You
[1:12:56] take all the data they've collected and
[1:12:58] you turn it over to an independent
[1:13:00] agency
[1:13:02] uh like an Air Force agency or the
[1:13:04] Marine Corps or whatever and they
[1:13:07] analyze it and come back and say this is
[1:13:10] how we believe the degree to which it's
[1:13:13] a threat. Okay. If it turns out it is a
[1:13:17] threat then you have to develop a
[1:13:19] defense at a whole new different
[1:13:22] mission.
[1:13:22] >> Yeah. Well, in our case, um, I was never
[1:13:26] going to be one of the original six. I
[1:13:29] was an advisor to the general,
[1:13:31] >> and he called me into his office and
[1:13:33] said, "Uh, this is a a hanky project.
[1:13:38] They want to do this hanky project out
[1:13:40] of Fort Me."
[1:13:41] >> And it makes me really nervous. And I
[1:13:44] can understand that cuz uh, you didn't
[1:13:48] bring the term psychics up anywhere in
[1:13:50] the military.
[1:13:51] >> Too afraid to say it. Exactly. And so,
[1:13:54] >> uh, he wanted to know more about it. So,
[1:13:57] he sent me out to, uh, Stanford. And
[1:14:01] when I was out at Stanford, I was told
[1:14:04] everything I wanted to know about remote
[1:14:05] viewing,
[1:14:06] >> SRRI,
[1:14:07] >> at SRRI, Stanford Research Institute
[1:14:10] International.
[1:14:11] And uh, but I'm asking so many
[1:14:14] questions. Russ D Russell Tar.
[1:14:18] >> Yeah.
[1:14:19] uh who worked it who was one of the
[1:14:21] founders of the lab that discovered
[1:14:24] remote drilling.
[1:14:25] >> Actually they didn't but they
[1:14:28] reinstituted it in the modern world. He
[1:14:32] said you know we you don't learn
[1:14:33] anything asking questions. Why don't you
[1:14:35] just do a few and you'll know what it's
[1:14:37] like.
[1:14:39] So I said, "Sure." You know, and so my
[1:14:42] very first target, I was uh in a in a
[1:14:47] room with Russell Tar. Both of us are
[1:14:49] now have no idea where this person went
[1:14:53] as uh one of the other employees had
[1:14:56] randomly selected a target and left. And
[1:15:01] so we're sitting there for 30 minutes or
[1:15:04] so and I'm I'm just sitting there
[1:15:06] staring at white paper with a pen in my
[1:15:08] hand.
[1:15:09] >> Yeah.
[1:15:09] >> And and Russell Tark says, "Well, well,
[1:15:12] tell us something about the target." I
[1:15:14] said, "How am I supposed to do that,
[1:15:16] Russell? I don't know where the hell it
[1:15:17] is. I don't know where that guy went."
[1:15:19] >> Yeah.
[1:15:20] >> So he says, "Invent something." So I
[1:15:22] did. I drew what I thought was an
[1:15:24] invention coming out of my mind.
[1:15:27] Um, I wound up in three days I did six
[1:15:30] of these. And it turns out the very
[1:15:33] first one I did, uh, when I drew the
[1:15:37] building, it it was very easy to see
[1:15:41] that it was the art museum on Stanford
[1:15:43] University.
[1:15:45] >> Um, and that's where the guy was
[1:15:47] standing, the entryway to the art museum
[1:15:51] in Stanford. It turns out when it was
[1:15:55] severely analyzed and and looked at as a
[1:16:00] uh by an independent guy who said all
[1:16:03] this loss here in this loss. I had a uh
[1:16:07] out of six targets I had five perfect
[1:16:10] results and one near perfect which
[1:16:13] >> still stands today.
[1:16:14] >> Yeah.
[1:16:15] >> Well, I just thought, "Oh, maybe I'm
[1:16:17] good at this. I don't know." But I wrote
[1:16:20] the report on the plane coming back and
[1:16:23] I dropped it on the general's desk at
[1:16:25] the headquarters.
[1:16:27] So I didn't think anything about it
[1:16:30] other than going up and going back to
[1:16:33] work and my desk on some problems I was
[1:16:36] working on. So I got back into my office
[1:16:38] and I pulled my desk drawer open. It was
[1:16:41] empty.
[1:16:43] All my desk drawers were empty.
[1:16:45] >> Yeah.
[1:16:46] >> What the hell's going on here? I went
[1:16:48] down to the general's office and I said,
[1:16:50] "Uh, excuse me, general, but is there a
[1:16:53] reason my desk is empty?" He said,
[1:16:56] "Well, yeah. Um, I had a chat with the
[1:16:59] people out of SRI,
[1:17:03] Russell Target, I'll put off and they
[1:17:06] really really want you in this this
[1:17:08] operation. So, I'm going to reassign you
[1:17:11] to Fort Me."
[1:17:14] And I'll tell you exactly what I did. I
[1:17:16] I got down on one knee and I went,
[1:17:19] "General, please don't send me to Fort
[1:17:22] Me." Because I knew it was a career
[1:17:25] killer.
[1:17:26] >> Yeah.
[1:17:26] >> And uh
[1:17:28] it's it I just didn't want to be doing
[1:17:31] something that would ruin my career. And
[1:17:35] the general said, "I'm sorry, but it's
[1:17:37] an order." So in the army, you stand up,
[1:17:41] snap to attention, and salute the
[1:17:43] general and say, "Yes, sir." hurry and
[1:17:44] you pack your bag and go to Fort Me,
[1:17:46] which is what I did.
[1:17:48] >> Yeah.
[1:17:48] >> And all I could do was the best job he
[1:17:51] told me.
[1:17:51] >> Yeah. And for people that don't know,
[1:17:53] you you had a long career in the
[1:17:55] military. You spent a long time
[1:17:56] overseas. You fought very hard to get
[1:17:58] promoted to warrant officer. So, so at
[1:18:01] this point in your career, you're very
[1:18:03] career oriented. Like
[1:18:04] >> I was career oriented from day one.
[1:18:07] Um at at the time at the time he had
[1:18:11] said that I had just come back from
[1:18:15] uh a little more than 14 straight years
[1:18:18] of operations overseas
[1:18:20] when the average was like three.
[1:18:23] >> Mhm. Yeah.
[1:18:24] >> And and uh I had uh six hardship tours
[1:18:28] when the average is one.
[1:18:29] >> Yeah. And uh so I would rather have gone
[1:18:34] back overseas and done real real work.
[1:18:37] Pushing papers is not my thing.
[1:18:41] Uh but I definitely did not want to risk
[1:18:44] my career over it. Um but he gave me an
[1:18:48] order so I carried it out.
[1:18:50] So for I think for a lot of the people
[1:18:53] who ended up at Fort me maybe they had
[1:18:56] some like some say they had kind of
[1:18:59] psychical things happening to them
[1:19:00] earlier in life some didn't even think
[1:19:04] they did you know like I've talked to
[1:19:05] Paul Smith he you know
[1:19:07] >> to him he like didn't even know this was
[1:19:09] a possible thing until he was like
[1:19:11] already in the program and experiencing
[1:19:13] it. But but for you reading your memoir
[1:19:15] at least, it seems like you were aware
[1:19:17] that you had some kind of intuitive
[1:19:20] capacities earlier in life. But did but
[1:19:24] >> so did that was it an existential shock
[1:19:27] to you when you're being so accurate
[1:19:30] doing these remote viewings or were you
[1:19:32] like oh this is something I think I've
[1:19:34] tapped into before. Did it make sense or
[1:19:36] were you kind of blown away by it?
[1:19:38] Initially I was blown away by it is I I
[1:19:41] didn't know how that was happening. I
[1:19:43] really didn't. Yeah. And and it it uh
[1:19:47] confused me. Um at in the I have to say
[1:19:52] the notoriety of it within the
[1:19:54] intelligence arena where everything's
[1:19:58] classified, nobody can talk about it. It
[1:20:01] was like scary.
[1:20:04] >> Yeah. because the most of the people
[1:20:08] thought I was crazy.
[1:20:10] Um I also I was doing demonstrations
[1:20:15] for the committee that was approving our
[1:20:17] money from year to year base
[1:20:20] >> and uh I I started to feel like I was a
[1:20:24] little monkey, you know, with that red
[1:20:26] cap. I do this dance and they give us
[1:20:28] the money.
[1:20:29] >> Yeah.
[1:20:29] >> For the next year. So you'd have to go
[1:20:31] in front of a general or whoever who was
[1:20:33] like approving a budget and
[1:20:35] >> go in front of a whole committee.
[1:20:37] >> Yeah. And they go, "Okay, remote view."
[1:20:39] And you'd have to do it.
[1:20:40] >> Right. What they would do is we'd sit
[1:20:43] there uh we get there the meeting would
[1:20:45] start early in the morning like 8:00 in
[1:20:48] in the congressional building and uh all
[1:20:52] senators we'd sit there
[1:20:55] uh from 8:00 on and people
[1:20:58] representatives from the different units
[1:21:01] would come in and say uh this is this is
[1:21:05] what we tasked them with this is the
[1:21:07] result what helped what didn't uh when
[1:21:10] it worked, when it didn't work,
[1:21:13] um and how the information was used, was
[1:21:17] it a value or not a value? And we'd sit
[1:21:21] there all all morning while I was going
[1:21:23] on. And and then uh we take a lunch
[1:21:26] break. And when we came back from lunch,
[1:21:29] the comment they made was uh we made you
[1:21:33] a really hard target while we're at
[1:21:35] lunch. And I have to demonstrate remote
[1:21:37] viewing so they could see what it was.
[1:21:40] Well, I did that like four straight
[1:21:43] times and then I told the colonel, I
[1:21:45] said, "I don't want to do this anymore."
[1:21:48] Um, and he said, "Well, you're going to
[1:21:51] have to because that's the way we get
[1:21:52] our money."
[1:21:54] And so I said, "What what if we do it
[1:21:56] differently?" And he said, "What do you
[1:21:58] mean?" I said, "Uh, I'll do the target
[1:22:02] on Saturday. We'll transcribe it on
[1:22:05] Monday. We'll take it with us on
[1:22:07] Thursday." and when they say we've got
[1:22:09] this really tough target, we'll just
[1:22:12] give them the answer. And he said, "Can
[1:22:14] you do that?" I said, "Sure. Time and
[1:22:17] space isn't real. We just put it where
[1:22:19] we want it."
[1:22:22] Remember the look on his face. He was
[1:22:24] really nervous after that, but we did
[1:22:27] it. And so we're sitting in there at the
[1:22:30] meeting and and uh the you know, the
[1:22:34] committee's there. We hear all these
[1:22:36] people talk about what we didn't do,
[1:22:39] what we did, what we
[1:22:42] couldn't do, that sort of thing.
[1:22:43] >> Yeah.
[1:22:44] >> And then they came back from lunch and
[1:22:46] the chairman said, um, uh, we picked a
[1:22:50] the toughest target we've ever picked
[1:22:53] for you today.
[1:22:55] And I said, well, in view of the fact
[1:22:57] that you're that important and, uh, you
[1:23:00] need all the time you can get, I went
[1:23:02] ahead and hit the target on Saturday.
[1:23:04] and I handed the the guard. The guard
[1:23:07] comes over and give the report and he
[1:23:10] gave it to the uh chairman. So the
[1:23:13] chairman is looking at this report and
[1:23:15] he started smiling and he said, "I
[1:23:17] didn't know you could do this." And we
[1:23:21] well I explained that sure it's not a
[1:23:24] big deal when it's done. The big deal is
[1:23:27] learning how to do it and do it right.
[1:23:31] And so he passed it to his right and
[1:23:33] we're we're now discussing time and
[1:23:35] space.
[1:23:36] >> Yeah.
[1:23:36] >> You know, time how it works.
[1:23:39] >> And I was telling him, you know, time's
[1:23:41] not real. Doesn't exist at all. We
[1:23:43] invented it for ourselves so we can
[1:23:47] locate things. And uh at some point it
[1:23:52] gets down to the end of the line of
[1:23:55] senator and this older senator is
[1:23:59] looking at this report and he suddenly
[1:24:01] stands up. His chair fell over. He stood
[1:24:04] up so fast and he threw the report
[1:24:07] across the room and he pointed his
[1:24:09] finger at me. He says, "You are doing
[1:24:11] the work of the devil. You will burn in
[1:24:13] the fires of hell." He ran out of the
[1:24:15] room.
[1:24:17] All here stood up on the back of my
[1:24:19] neck.
[1:24:19] >> Wow.
[1:24:20] >> And uh chairman said he's leaving the
[1:24:24] committee. So don't worry about him.
[1:24:26] >> Wow. Yeah. And so on this point, you've
[1:24:31] done very deep thinking about this idea
[1:24:34] of time. The mind is essentially like a
[1:24:37] time machine. And I know you wrote a
[1:24:40] whole book about this, right? And I
[1:24:41] unfortunately haven't read it, but um
[1:24:43] this I'm going to guess this ties back
[1:24:46] to this holistic reality that you were
[1:24:49] talking about perceiving
[1:24:51] >> in the near-death state where you
[1:24:53] realize that everything is already this
[1:24:54] kind of
[1:24:56] >> one cohesive thing. Is this what you
[1:24:58] mean by the Yeah, please expand on that.
[1:25:01] Yeah. Our life our lives are our lives
[1:25:04] are a construct.
[1:25:06] Um
[1:25:07] from the day we're born to the day we
[1:25:09] die.
[1:25:11] Uh it in effect we we walk around in our
[1:25:16] reality collecting experiences.
[1:25:19] Uh the experiences come out of uh
[1:25:22] initially come out of decisions we make.
[1:25:26] Um what we don't believe is we don't
[1:25:28] believe the decision we make affects
[1:25:31] others. We think it only affects us.
[1:25:34] That's again part of the human
[1:25:36] arrogance. Okay.
[1:25:38] >> So but in fact
[1:25:42] uh when we do something the experience
[1:25:46] is shared uh we don't know who it's
[1:25:48] shared with or how far to what degree.
[1:25:51] We just feel what we feel about
[1:25:53] ourselves.
[1:25:55] Uh but what happens when we do that when
[1:25:59] we create this place in time space it it
[1:26:03] sort of gives us a time a very specific
[1:26:05] time date and then it gives us the space
[1:26:08] of the place that it happened.
[1:26:10] >> Yeah.
[1:26:10] >> So that just became a creation.
[1:26:12] >> It's almost like the collapse of the
[1:26:14] wave function and
[1:26:15] >> it just it's now real.
[1:26:17] >> Yeah. And and what's interesting is if
[1:26:20] you really believe that uh reality is a
[1:26:25] construct you're building as you go,
[1:26:28] this never goes away. It becomes a a
[1:26:31] wireframe.
[1:26:32] >> Yeah. And that wireframe when you uh at
[1:26:36] some point when you are close to death
[1:26:40] and you have a sudden uh obligation to
[1:26:44] look at everything you ever did, it's
[1:26:46] done instantly. It's it's that
[1:26:49] wireframe. It may look like a giant
[1:26:52] bowling ball. It just fills in with all
[1:26:55] the other parts of that uh that uh
[1:26:59] experience. has it affected everyone
[1:27:01] around you or affected the people you're
[1:27:03] in direct contact with whatever.
[1:27:06] >> So it other words it it's sort of a
[1:27:10] report card. Okay. Now here's the
[1:27:13] problem. You you now have a report card
[1:27:16] that says you can take a paintbrush and
[1:27:18] there's a million colors and you can
[1:27:20] take one and a half% of that color, 3%
[1:27:24] of that color, 40% of this color,
[1:27:27] whatever based on the analysis of that
[1:27:31] event where you got feedback on all of
[1:27:34] your decision making
[1:27:36] >> and you paint yourself with it. So now
[1:27:38] you're a special color. You can't you
[1:27:42] can't wipe it off. You can't scrub it
[1:27:44] off. You can't change it. That's when
[1:27:47] people see you now in a sense, I'm
[1:27:50] talking now in a uh
[1:27:53] uh in a sense of identity.
[1:27:56] >> Mhm.
[1:27:57] >> They said, "Oh, that's what that person
[1:27:59] is."
[1:28:01] No two people are the same color.
[1:28:03] >> Yeah.
[1:28:04] >> Okay. Some are darker colors than
[1:28:07] others, which are brighter colors.
[1:28:10] The darker colors are the ones where
[1:28:13] people got stuck in a rut and did
[1:28:15] whatever they wanted to do. Um, now as
[1:28:20] an example, murdered 30 million people
[1:28:22] to have this power.
[1:28:23] >> Yeah.
[1:28:24] >> What do you think his color looks like?
[1:28:26] >> I would assume black. There's nothing he
[1:28:28] could do about it except
[1:28:31] come back a million times and learn.
[1:28:36] >> Mhm.
[1:28:36] >> And learn and learn and learn.
[1:28:40] I think the experiential stuff is the
[1:28:44] one thing we can take with us when we
[1:28:46] die.
[1:28:48] >> And it's a very powerful thing because
[1:28:50] it tells us who and what we are because
[1:28:54] it it paints us. It's like,
[1:28:57] >> yeah,
[1:28:57] >> tada, here I am.
[1:28:59] >> So, so to try to summarize what you just
[1:29:01] said, it's sort of like what the the
[1:29:03] truth of what you really are is this
[1:29:05] thing that from our perspective, we
[1:29:06] would almost think of as this like
[1:29:08] three-dimensional
[1:29:10] um wireframe spherical soul thing that
[1:29:13] is experiencing as if things are
[1:29:16] happening sequentially, but really
[1:29:18] there's this other kind of experience
[1:29:21] that's outside of time. Is is that
[1:29:24] right?
[1:29:26] >> Yes.
[1:29:26] >> Okay.
[1:29:27] >> That
[1:29:29] Yeah, that's good enough.
[1:29:31] >> Okay. Um
[1:29:32] >> there's a some other little fibbits in
[1:29:34] there. It's not worth digging into.
[1:29:36] >> Okay. Okay. So, so one thing, so some
[1:29:38] people believe
[1:29:40] and so I I'd love to hear your thoughts
[1:29:42] on this because some people think that
[1:29:44] would extrapolate what you're saying
[1:29:46] into you don't actually have free will
[1:29:49] because this construct is already
[1:29:51] >> perfect form of free will.
[1:29:53] >> Okay. Yeah. So, so you think we still
[1:29:55] although there is this
[1:29:57] >> you know because you talk about like
[1:29:58] retrocausality and stuff like that as
[1:30:00] well which would imply well wait if
[1:30:02] there's retrocausality then something in
[1:30:04] the future it must already be set
[1:30:06] >> so how do you view that relationship
[1:30:08] between free will and all of this stuff
[1:30:10] yeah
[1:30:11] >> I don't think it matters free will or no
[1:30:13] free will
[1:30:14] >> it's it's we design it with the
[1:30:18] intention of free will
[1:30:21] get what we get from it And the only
[1:30:25] thing that we are really after is the
[1:30:28] experience and the value of it. In other
[1:30:30] words, the experience of that mix create
[1:30:34] that that decision
[1:30:36] to produce the effect. Now the effect is
[1:30:39] what we what we learn from. When I say
[1:30:42] we, that's part of God too.
[1:30:45] >> Yeah.
[1:30:46] >> Okay. Because God in my opinion is a
[1:30:49] grand engineer that has no idea what
[1:30:51] he's doing, what she's doing or it's
[1:30:54] doing.
[1:30:55] >> It just does. And so in order for
[1:31:00] a godlike energy
[1:31:04] understand what it is, it has to have
[1:31:06] enough experience in all things to know
[1:31:12] the ramifications of what its actions
[1:31:14] are. So we're we're basically the
[1:31:18] fingers
[1:31:20] of whatever you want to call God or the
[1:31:22] grand engineer or the whatever.
[1:31:26] >> And and I think there's no good or bad
[1:31:28] there.
[1:31:30] But as humans,
[1:31:34] the fact that we exist as humans and
[1:31:38] then don't I think is uh
[1:31:42] is a way of really feeling a value.
[1:31:46] >> Yes.
[1:31:48] >> Whether and we can attach good, bad,
[1:31:52] ugly, nice, pretty, all those different
[1:31:55] descriptors.
[1:31:57] we we have the right to apply them
[1:31:59] because we experienced them.
[1:32:02] >> So when you say we select this I I'm
[1:32:05] assuming you're meaning from some sort
[1:32:06] of like higher dimensional pre pre-life
[1:32:10] perspective.
[1:32:11] >> Well yeah I think in here's in the
[1:32:14] grosser sense all living matter
[1:32:18] has that capability and that's that's
[1:32:21] where the arrogance in us comes from. Uh
[1:32:24] for instance um right now this is our
[1:32:27] home. This this planet's our home. Uh
[1:32:31] whether we were rescued and brought here
[1:32:33] or we the first instant of us existed
[1:32:37] here in the first place. It doesn't
[1:32:39] matter the fact that that this is a
[1:32:42] special place because it has oxygen, it
[1:32:45] has uh weather, it has tides, it has all
[1:32:48] the stuff necessary to make life. Mhm.
[1:32:53] >> So when you start looking at life on
[1:32:55] this planet, you have to look at the
[1:32:57] mole. Even the mole growing on the wall
[1:33:00] >> Yeah.
[1:33:01] >> has life.
[1:33:04] All life on this planet understands that
[1:33:09] it it has to act a certain way. It's
[1:33:13] it's kind of like a uh an agreement in a
[1:33:17] sense to follow the same same rules.
[1:33:20] It's a consensus of agreement on what's
[1:33:25] necessary
[1:33:26] for this planet, this little ball in
[1:33:30] space, what's absolutely necessary to
[1:33:34] keep all life in balance.
[1:33:38] So, it's a consensus.
[1:33:40] >> We're part of that. But where the
[1:33:43] problem comes in is we don't think about
[1:33:45] it that way. We think about it like
[1:33:48] we're the only entity getting to use it
[1:33:51] and and we can do anything we want. We
[1:33:54] can cut trees. We can set fire to them.
[1:33:56] We can do whatever the hell we want to
[1:33:57] do.
[1:33:58] >> Yeah.
[1:33:58] >> No, it it this is consensus of
[1:34:01] agreement.
[1:34:03] So everyone's in balance. So everyone
[1:34:06] gets to successfully
[1:34:09] use it
[1:34:11] in life
[1:34:13] uh and death if you want to look at it
[1:34:15] that way. Mhm.
[1:34:16] >> So,
[1:34:19] but because of our arrogance, we we
[1:34:22] don't believe any of that. We just
[1:34:24] >> marshal on doing whatever we want to do.
[1:34:28] And so, it's a it's a test as well.
[1:34:33] >> Yeah.
[1:34:33] >> Will we ever mature to the fact of
[1:34:36] understanding our place in it? And when
[1:34:40] we do finally discover our place in it
[1:34:44] is when
[1:34:46] everything will smooth out.
[1:34:49] And and I think there's signs of it. And
[1:34:51] if you go back and you you read about
[1:34:54] the data that's been taken from ice
[1:34:57] >> tubes ice cores. Yeah.
[1:34:59] >> Ice cores in in the North or South
[1:35:02] Poles.
[1:35:03] what what you find or what's reported
[1:35:06] there has to do with um uh things like
[1:35:11] uh the weather as an example.
[1:35:14] >> So in looking at the weather and the
[1:35:16] from the core samples what you'll see is
[1:35:19] they they know that the weather before
[1:35:22] human was extremely erratic.
[1:35:25] >> Right. Yeah.
[1:35:26] >> Then then there became human and what
[1:35:29] happened is they it started smoothing
[1:35:31] out. Hm.
[1:35:32] >> So all this time probably 2 or 3 million
[1:35:36] years that the weather has been
[1:35:40] >> Yeah. temperate by comparison
[1:35:42] >> temperate stable.
[1:35:44] >> We get cold weather in the winter, we
[1:35:46] get warm weather in the summer. Okay.
[1:35:49] But outside of maybe a few fluctuations
[1:35:53] which may come from, you know,
[1:35:55] everything from solar flares to you name
[1:35:58] it. Yeah. We it's impossible to know but
[1:36:02] mainly stable.
[1:36:04] Uh we reach a point now where we have we
[1:36:08] produce more babies than we will ever be
[1:36:11] able to feed
[1:36:13] um more people than can ever be
[1:36:17] sharing to the point that ones at the
[1:36:20] top share.
[1:36:23] >> You understand? Yeah.
[1:36:24] >> So we've created this erratic
[1:36:29] uh place we live with this irrational
[1:36:32] imbalance
[1:36:34] and add the arrogance in. We're never
[1:36:37] going to reach that point where we
[1:36:40] understand the maturity required to
[1:36:43] exist
[1:36:45] and be off planet with other entities
[1:36:48] where we could be mining asteroids doing
[1:36:51] whatever it took. We don't we're never
[1:36:54] going to get there because we keep
[1:36:56] wanting to be a threat.
[1:36:58] >> Yeah. And and live our own egotistical
[1:37:01] desires. And
[1:37:02] >> and what's happening now? You're
[1:37:04] starting to see the erratic
[1:37:06] >> Yeah.
[1:37:06] >> coming back.
[1:37:07] >> Yes.
[1:37:08] >> And with the erratic comes perhaps a
[1:37:11] mini ice age.
[1:37:13] >> Yeah.
[1:37:14] >> And what happens to the general
[1:37:15] population?
[1:37:17] >> Not good.
[1:37:18] >> Take that.
[1:37:18] >> Yeah. and and we got to go through the
[1:37:21] whole growth process again trying to
[1:37:25] learn to be that mature
[1:37:28] entity that understands are only part of
[1:37:31] it.
[1:37:33] The mole has certain experience as well.
[1:37:37] >> Yeah. You know, and and the bears have
[1:37:41] experiences and dinosaurs have
[1:37:44] experiences and all of that tells God
[1:37:50] what it is.
[1:37:51] >> Wow.
[1:37:52] >> Okay.
[1:37:53] >> Yeah.
[1:37:53] >> So, we can do it the hard way or we can
[1:37:55] do it the good way.
[1:37:56] >> Yeah. And and I'm I'm just I just feel
[1:38:00] sad that we have to keep
[1:38:03] reloading and reloading and reloading
[1:38:06] when there's half a billion entities out
[1:38:10] there enjoying
[1:38:13] what we could be enjoying and we're not.
[1:38:15] >> Well said. Yeah. And that's another
[1:38:17] thing you find in all these traditions
[1:38:19] is the idea of a world soul. A Gaic a
[1:38:22] Gaic soul.
[1:38:22] >> Exactly. And as cliche as it sounds in
[1:38:25] in some, you know, I've done some like
[1:38:26] shamanic experiences, like plant
[1:38:28] medicine experiences, and I genuinely do
[1:38:31] have this like
[1:38:34] >> kind of like you're do like just kind of
[1:38:36] getting smacked up the backside
[1:38:38] >> kind of almost like lecture in those
[1:38:40] states where where it seems to be saying
[1:38:42] exactly what you're saying where it's
[1:38:44] like
[1:38:44] >> you have the capacities you have cuz
[1:38:47] you're supposed to work together for the
[1:38:49] benefit of this planet and reach off of
[1:38:52] this planet and it's that very cosmism
[1:38:55] kind of view. You know that Russian
[1:38:57] cosmism, those philosophers who believed
[1:38:59] it was our destiny to go to the stars
[1:39:02] and that's the kind of a lesson I get in
[1:39:04] those states. It's like that's what you
[1:39:05] guys are supposed to be doing and you're
[1:39:07] too busy
[1:39:08] >> killing each other and trying to make
[1:39:09] money and all this like you
[1:39:11] need to Yeah.
[1:39:13] >> Yeah. Yeah. And I just I have no idea
[1:39:14] like how we get over that hump and try
[1:39:17] to get into that more collective
[1:39:20] great work kind of mindset because it's
[1:39:22] like clearly we're capable of it, but
[1:39:24] it's our our horizon is we're just like
[1:39:27] looking in the wrong direction. It seems
[1:39:29] like
[1:39:29] >> well not only that but we I think we
[1:39:32] think so little of our own capabilities.
[1:39:36] M
[1:39:36] >> you know that maturity
[1:39:39] uh with that maturity we could be having
[1:39:43] experiences that made us far greater
[1:39:46] than we are.
[1:39:47] >> Yeah.
[1:39:48] >> And it's like we're just refusing to go
[1:39:50] there
[1:39:52] and
[1:39:54] it makes me sad.
[1:39:56] >> Yeah, too. So,
[1:39:59] you know, I I have a friend who said,
[1:40:02] uh, it always all this always goes back
[1:40:05] to politics or religion.
[1:40:07] >> Yeah.
[1:40:07] >> Okay. Which is, I think, two of the
[1:40:10] things that really hold us back and uh
[1:40:14] he he is always trying to like class me
[1:40:18] when we have these discussions, you
[1:40:20] know, are you like left, right, in the
[1:40:23] middle?
[1:40:24] >> He wants to put you in a bucket.
[1:40:25] >> Yeah. with everybody else. And he says,
[1:40:29] "I'm I'm I'm like uh Mercury, you know,
[1:40:33] >> you should be.
[1:40:33] >> I float around." Yeah. And
[1:40:35] >> I said, "No, I you know, Mercury is one
[1:40:39] of those things that keeps in balance."
[1:40:41] >> Yeah.
[1:40:42] >> So,
[1:40:43] uh I
[1:40:46] don't know. I just react differently.
[1:40:49] Uh I came a long way. Uh but then I got
[1:40:53] I had the opportunity of having
[1:40:55] experiences that no one else has ever
[1:40:56] had.
[1:40:57] >> Right.
[1:40:58] >> So
[1:40:58] >> yeah. Yeah. And and talking about those
[1:41:02] experiences, it's like there's so much
[1:41:03] that I just like, man, there's so much I
[1:41:05] want to talk to you about in this
[1:41:06] conversation that I don't know where to
[1:41:07] go from here. But one one thing, you
[1:41:09] know, I don't feel like I've heard you
[1:41:11] talk about too much that I know you were
[1:41:14] involved in is um project 8200.
[1:41:18] this this Fred Fred Atwater put out this
[1:41:22] 8200 book
[1:41:24] >> which was this project of a bunch of the
[1:41:25] remote viewers repeating Pat Price's
[1:41:29] >> uh remote viewings of these supposed
[1:41:31] >> Yeah
[1:41:31] >> uh UFO bases
[1:41:33] >> now what there's an issue there
[1:41:35] >> okay
[1:41:36] >> um
[1:41:38] back when I was targeted on the Pat
[1:41:41] Price targets
[1:41:44] uh everything I was targeted on was
[1:41:46] classified everything I was doing was
[1:41:48] classified.
[1:41:50] >> It was all happening within a classified
[1:41:52] project uh which at that time was called
[1:41:57] um
[1:42:00] Sun Street.
[1:42:01] >> Yeah.
[1:42:01] >> Okay. Cuz it was under the direction of
[1:42:04] the Defense Intelligence Agency at the
[1:42:06] time. So,
[1:42:09] um,
[1:42:11] I was the, at that time I was the only
[1:42:15] viewer producing remote viewings
[1:42:19] aside from Pat Price early on and the
[1:42:22] people I worked with.
[1:42:23] >> Ingo,
[1:42:24] >> uh, and Ingo Swan. Yeah. So,
[1:42:28] uh,
[1:42:30] when I was being targeted on this stuff,
[1:42:33] I was not I was not getting the same
[1:42:36] things that Pat Price was getting.
[1:42:39] >> Descriptively, yes, but
[1:42:43] emotionally
[1:42:45] uh,
[1:42:46] you know, in in a sense that we
[1:42:48] understand what's going on, it was
[1:42:50] different.
[1:42:52] And my my view of the whole set of
[1:42:56] projects that Pat Price did was that the
[1:42:59] targets were in in fact
[1:43:03] um not UFO target
[1:43:05] >> really. Okay.
[1:43:06] >> That they were a a new a new high techch
[1:43:11] defense system.
[1:43:13] >> Uh I don't know if you remember the old
[1:43:16] the old defense system called the
[1:43:18] Dooline.
[1:43:19] >> I don't.
[1:43:20] >> Okay. way before your time. Let me tell
[1:43:23] you the due line was a string of radar
[1:43:27] sites across the extreme north and it
[1:43:30] watched the horizon in case somebody
[1:43:33] launched rockets. Okay.
[1:43:34] >> Okay.
[1:43:35] >> It was an early warning system against
[1:43:38] uh the rocket delivery or ICBM delivery
[1:43:41] of atomic weapons
[1:43:44] >> that was done away with in the very
[1:43:47] earlier mid 1960s.
[1:43:49] Now, this is my opinion based on Buick.
[1:43:53] The targets I got that Pat Price said
[1:43:56] were remote were alien targets.
[1:44:00] >> Yeah.
[1:44:00] >> In fact, were over the horizon radar
[1:44:04] sites.
[1:44:05] >> Now, back then when I did the targets,
[1:44:08] that fact was extremely sensitive,
[1:44:12] >> right?
[1:44:12] >> Highly classified
[1:44:14] because they're automated sites. They
[1:44:17] have only technicians there. They walk
[1:44:20] around repairing stuff as it breaks
[1:44:22] down. But these radar sites are capable
[1:44:25] of looking over the horizon.
[1:44:27] >> Yeah.
[1:44:28] >> Radars straight line. So how do they do
[1:44:32] that? Well, that was top secret.
[1:44:35] Extremely sensitive. So when I did the
[1:44:39] targets, I said I told uh Skip Outwater,
[1:44:43] I said, "Fred,
[1:44:44] these are not alien targets. This is
[1:44:47] over the horizon radar sites. High
[1:44:51] techch stuff nobody's supposed to know
[1:44:54] about." Okay?
[1:44:56] >> And and he just looked at me
[1:44:59] and from that point on it was alien as
[1:45:03] far as Skip Water was concerned.
[1:45:05] >> For like a disinformation purpose. Yeah,
[1:45:07] because everybody everybody else was
[1:45:10] saying it was alien.
[1:45:12] >> Okay. But they weren't remote viewing.
[1:45:15] They were going on the the suspicion of
[1:45:18] or the leap
[1:45:20] >> Yeah.
[1:45:20] >> made because of what everybody was
[1:45:23] saying,
[1:45:23] >> right?
[1:45:24] >> And I think even Pat Price misidentified
[1:45:27] him. Now, it's yet to be proven because
[1:45:31] nobody goes there and actually looks
[1:45:35] >> except for Skip Atwater and some others
[1:45:39] >> and some of these sites. Uh, it's very
[1:45:42] clearly military.
[1:45:45] >> Yeah,
[1:45:45] >> it's very clearly embedded underground.
[1:45:49] It's very clearly doing over their
[1:45:51] horizon radar. So, in some of them, it's
[1:45:55] doing it a different way completely. So
[1:45:58] it it may be that dependent on the
[1:46:01] country
[1:46:03] in that that band
[1:46:06] uh the technique or method being used.
[1:46:09] >> Mhm.
[1:46:09] >> But I still think it's over the horizon
[1:46:12] radar sites.
[1:46:12] >> That's so fascinating and and it makes a
[1:46:14] lot of sense honestly and you know when
[1:46:17] so I have that project 8200 book that
[1:46:19] that he put out and it's so interesting
[1:46:21] read looking at Pat Price's remote
[1:46:23] viewings
[1:46:24] >> because they have like lore and like
[1:46:26] attached to them. I mean like there's
[1:46:28] like whole it's almost like you're
[1:46:29] reading a story
[1:46:30] >> and there's these really like involved
[1:46:33] like almost like characters in the story
[1:46:35] from my memory and really precise
[1:46:38] drawings. Then you go on to the Fort me
[1:46:39] remote viewers.
[1:46:40] >> Yeah.
[1:46:40] >> And I don't think you yours were in
[1:46:42] there cuz you were you were doing it
[1:46:43] like
[1:46:44] >> um
[1:46:45] >> yeah mine
[1:46:46] >> extended remote viewing.
[1:46:47] >> Mine came late uh much later
[1:46:50] >> cuz there's recordings of you I think
[1:46:52] doing it but it's not but you're you're
[1:46:53] like you're speaking it. I don't even
[1:46:55] remember if you're if there's video or
[1:46:57] if there's just audio of you doing it.
[1:46:59] >> Uh there's some sketches
[1:47:02] and yeah, there's a there's an audio
[1:47:05] somewhere out there.
[1:47:06] >> Yeah.
[1:47:07] >> Uh but uh when I was doing the target,
[1:47:12] uh the places I was targeted were it was
[1:47:15] dead winter. Everything was under snow
[1:47:18] banks. Um,
[1:47:20] in fact, uh, Skip Award went to one of
[1:47:24] the locations himself.
[1:47:25] >> Yeah. Was it the Spain one maybe?
[1:47:27] >> Yeah.
[1:47:28] >> Mount Purito, I think it was.
[1:47:29] >> Yes, exactly. And had problems there
[1:47:32] because early in the morning and late at
[1:47:35] night, a fog comes in.
[1:47:37] >> If you're if you're anywhere on the face
[1:47:39] of that mountain and the fog comes in,
[1:47:42] you have to sit right where you are. You
[1:47:44] cannot move. If you take three steps,
[1:47:47] you may be stepping off a 4,000
[1:47:50] >> foot cliff.
[1:47:51] >> Wow.
[1:47:51] >> Cuz you can't see your hand in front of
[1:47:53] your face. So, it's really bad place to
[1:47:57] be when the sun goes down because then
[1:48:00] it gets cold and hazardous.
[1:48:03] Um
[1:48:05] the the
[1:48:07] uh the idea that it might have been
[1:48:09] aliens, I I cannot fault because it was
[1:48:13] delivered that way. Yeah. by Pat Price.
[1:48:16] >> And do you think that could have had
[1:48:17] something to do with his interest in
[1:48:18] like Scientology and like other things
[1:48:21] like that? Okay.
[1:48:22] >> That's Scientology's interest and what
[1:48:24] the government's doing.
[1:48:25] >> Oh yeah, that
[1:48:26] >> that was really not good. And in fact,
[1:48:30] the entire history of our project is
[1:48:33] rift with people stealing.
[1:48:36] >> Yeah. it it they're stealing information
[1:48:39] out of there and and reports and
[1:48:44] uh we had uh files that would disappear.
[1:48:48] >> Yeah.
[1:48:48] >> And then reappear. I mean, come on.
[1:48:51] >> And and this and and the idea is is that
[1:48:54] this had to do with Scientology trying
[1:48:56] to take information out of the program,
[1:48:58] right?
[1:48:59] >> Exactly. because uh initially I think
[1:49:04] everybody at just about everybody at
[1:49:07] Stanford Research Institute
[1:49:10] >> uh that was working on our project was
[1:49:13] or had been at one time Scientology
[1:49:16] connected.
[1:49:17] >> Yeah.
[1:49:18] >> Uh some some claim Well, no, I wasn't
[1:49:21] there. I was I was just collecting
[1:49:23] intelligence on Scientology to see if
[1:49:26] they had any techniques or methods we
[1:49:28] could use. Okay, I'll buy that once.
[1:49:32] >> Yeah.
[1:49:33] >> But not every single person coming in
[1:49:35] the door. And and then we had a
[1:49:37] secondary problem in that some of the
[1:49:41] religious denominations of the people
[1:49:43] involved were also suspect that they
[1:49:47] were taking it for those religious
[1:49:49] centers. So, you know, it's like when it
[1:49:54] comes to aliens, everybody wants to
[1:49:56] know. Everybody wants to keep the
[1:49:58] information for themselves.
[1:50:00] And so that's a that's a standard
[1:50:03] problem there. Um
[1:50:08] I I will tell you frankly I I've
[1:50:10] targeted hundreds hundreds of UFOs.
[1:50:14] >> Wow.
[1:50:16] >> And I I can also tell you that I don't
[1:50:19] know anything about my target when I
[1:50:22] start.
[1:50:23] Um, all targets that I do uh are
[1:50:28] wrapped in some way that they're opaque
[1:50:31] that you can't tell. Uh, like if it's a
[1:50:36] location, it's written on a paper. It's
[1:50:38] in a envelope. The envelope's been
[1:50:40] wrapped over three times, sealed. No one
[1:50:44] in the room with me knows what's in the
[1:50:46] envelope. When we when we teach remote
[1:50:49] viewing here, I teach remote viewing
[1:50:51] here. The students are blind, double
[1:50:53] blind. The trainers are double
[1:50:56] >> blind. And I'm double
[1:50:57] >> blind.
[1:50:59] >> Nobody knows.
[1:51:00] >> Yeah.
[1:51:00] >> Okay. So when they're successful,
[1:51:04] they understand exactly what it is they
[1:51:07] just did. And in order to deal with it
[1:51:11] now, they have to accept the fact that
[1:51:13] remote viewing is real.
[1:51:15] Changes somebody personally. Yeah.
[1:51:17] >> Completely. They never can go back once
[1:51:21] they go through that door.
[1:51:23] >> Yeah.
[1:51:24] >> Can't back out of it again.
[1:51:26] >> Anywhere else it's taught.
[1:51:30] So many hints are given in most cases
[1:51:32] that they can they have something they
[1:51:35] can blame the success on.
[1:51:37] >> Right.
[1:51:37] >> And they never get any better.
[1:51:39] >> Yeah. And and in a way that's good
[1:51:41] because if you you want to be
[1:51:42] approaching this with epistemic
[1:51:46] you want to be directed toward the
[1:51:47] truth. Like you want to know, am I doing
[1:51:49] something real here or is this all
[1:51:51] >> And and eventually something happens
[1:51:53] like the out-of- body experience I had
[1:51:55] here or whatever where you're like,
[1:51:57] >> if if that's not real, then this isn't
[1:51:59] real right now. And and once you cross
[1:52:01] that Rubicon, I
[1:52:03] >> I'm not somebody who believes that like
[1:52:05] you really have to believe that
[1:52:06] something's true for it to be true. But
[1:52:08] when you know that it's true from a
[1:52:10] experience that's really undeniable, I
[1:52:12] do think that that that does change
[1:52:14] something. Yeah, it uh but I won't go
[1:52:20] into any details, but there are certain
[1:52:22] things we do within the class when we're
[1:52:25] teaching it
[1:52:26] >> where the only way it could work for
[1:52:30] everyone.
[1:52:31] >> Yeah.
[1:52:31] >> Is if it works for one.
[1:52:33] >> Yeah.
[1:52:33] >> It works for everybody.
[1:52:35] >> And it's an amazing thing to see when
[1:52:38] that works. It it like you catch the
[1:52:41] entire class
[1:52:44] like coming right out of a dark closet.
[1:52:47] >> Yeah.
[1:52:48] >> It it they and they just
[1:52:51] the expression on the glass is amazing.
[1:52:54] They'll they'll just go, "Oh my god. Oh
[1:52:58] wow." that it's like then everybody
[1:53:01] talks about it and they're up all night
[1:53:04] because it's it's hard to deal with if
[1:53:08] you're not willing to change.
[1:53:11] And uh the the the one person
[1:53:16] that that never happened with was a
[1:53:19] reporter.
[1:53:20] >> Really?
[1:53:20] >> They were here to collect information so
[1:53:22] they could write an
[1:53:24] >> Wow. Of course. Of course. So, go going
[1:53:27] back, you said you've remote viewed
[1:53:28] hundreds of UFOs. Oh, yeah. Yeah. What
[1:53:30] were you
[1:53:31] >> hundreds of UFOs? Okay.
[1:53:34] Um, never saw an entity in any of them.
[1:53:38] >> No, I did see
[1:53:41] uh
[1:53:43] aliens, but I would call aliens because
[1:53:47] there's no other word to use.
[1:53:48] >> Yeah.
[1:53:49] >> Uh they're not aliens actually. What
[1:53:51] they are, they're robots. Okay.
[1:53:55] Every entity I've ever seen in a UFO
[1:53:58] except for one UFO are all robots.
[1:54:01] >> Fascinating.
[1:54:02] >> They they grow their robots and they
[1:54:05] program their robots and when they're
[1:54:07] done using them, they step back into
[1:54:09] that and what they're made out of goes
[1:54:12] back to be used again. And I can say
[1:54:16] that because
[1:54:18] they're completely indifferent to
[1:54:21] humans. They're doing a job, a function,
[1:54:25] and they occupy these UFOs, these
[1:54:28] machines. And these machines that we
[1:54:30] call UFOs, I think the reason they have
[1:54:34] robot robotics operating them and and
[1:54:38] they look sort of like entities
[1:54:41] is because it's the only way they can
[1:54:44] transfer it in that jump from star to
[1:54:47] star. Now they they can transfer
[1:54:52] a live entity but the the amount of
[1:54:55] power and the amount of energy it takes
[1:54:58] to do that the size of the craft that
[1:55:00] has to be used
[1:55:01] >> is enormous. So,
[1:55:05] there are times when
[1:55:08] uh when I've had a sense that I was
[1:55:11] looking at
[1:55:13] um a UFO or a machine, it had for the
[1:55:18] most part a live entity in it.
[1:55:21] >> Uhhuh.
[1:55:21] >> But that that one time, which is now
[1:55:25] become numerous times, it's the same
[1:55:28] entity. And as soon as I see that fact,
[1:55:33] I'm shut down.
[1:55:35] >> Wow.
[1:55:35] >> Everything just quits.
[1:55:37] >> No more information.
[1:55:40] >> This begs so many interesting questions.
[1:55:42] So yeah, I know.
[1:55:43] >> So So do you have any sense of like So
[1:55:45] there there is speculation
[1:55:49] of there's something on the planet
[1:55:53] >> that is producing these beings and these
[1:55:56] craft for some kind of purpose. Maybe
[1:55:58] that purpose is monitoring things. Maybe
[1:56:00] it's um you know it's been here long
[1:56:03] before us. May maybe it's the thing that
[1:56:05] influenced humans arising in the first
[1:56:07] place. Who knows? But do you have any
[1:56:10] sense of like do you think that's the
[1:56:12] case that these things are being made
[1:56:14] terrestrially somewhere for some
[1:56:15] function or do you think they're okay?
[1:56:17] >> See I I think they transfer the machine.
[1:56:21] >> The machine generates
[1:56:24] uh a robot.
[1:56:26] they they are generated as a life form.
[1:56:31] In other words, they're grown
[1:56:32] >> biological
[1:56:34] robot
[1:56:35] >> and then it's programmed in some way.
[1:56:38] And I I believe that's true. Um
[1:56:42] >> because I I don't think they can get a
[1:56:44] live entity across without, like I said,
[1:56:48] enormous amount of power and energy and
[1:56:51] the right kind of vehicle.
[1:56:54] Um and and so there may be
[1:56:59] three entities max on this planet
[1:57:02] >> like real real entities. You
[1:57:05] >> real real alien entities that
[1:57:08] >> Sorry to interrupt you but like three
[1:57:09] individual entities or three species.
[1:57:12] three individual entities, maybe five,
[1:57:15] very small number, and they're
[1:57:18] responsible for
[1:57:21] uh correlating whatever the information
[1:57:24] is that the robots are collecting and
[1:57:27] they change up on the robot design.
[1:57:30] >> So, it confuses us.
[1:57:32] >> Are they anthropomorphic
[1:57:34] or are they just like almost like a
[1:57:38] biological organ that drives the ship or
[1:57:41] >> Yeah. No, they Yes, they drive the ship,
[1:57:46] but only one. That's the one that's been
[1:57:51] programmed, trained to drive the ship.
[1:57:53] The others have their own functions. So,
[1:57:57] you look at it this way.
[1:57:59] Uh, you have a UFO, you target the UFO.
[1:58:02] It's not huge. It's sort of a medium
[1:58:06] size UFO. And the entities on board all
[1:58:10] look the same. And there might be 12, 15
[1:58:15] on board. And they
[1:58:18] stop the engine of a car and they take
[1:58:20] grandma out of the front seat
[1:58:23] >> and they just instantly move her from
[1:58:26] that front seat to the inside of the
[1:58:28] UFO.
[1:58:30] They take uh blood, maybe some genetic
[1:58:33] material from her. The whole time she's
[1:58:36] completely terrified
[1:58:38] and immobile. She can't move. They've
[1:58:41] probably stun the the uh the
[1:58:45] >> nervous system
[1:58:46] >> the nervous system in some way. So,
[1:58:48] nothing works.
[1:58:50] She's she's watching all this and she's
[1:58:53] hearing some form of communication
[1:58:56] between these robotic entities, but
[1:58:58] they're totally indifferent to her. It's
[1:59:00] like she they don't care. She's laying
[1:59:04] there. they doing their thing and they
[1:59:06] don't take care of her. They don't look
[1:59:08] at her. They don't do anything nice.
[1:59:10] They just take a snippet here or blood
[1:59:14] here or whatever to get the genetic
[1:59:17] material and then she goes to sleep,
[1:59:20] wakes up in the car and doesn't know
[1:59:22] what happened.
[1:59:23] >> Uhhuh.
[1:59:23] >> And she's 85 miles from where she should
[1:59:26] be. Um that that's kind of the idea
[1:59:30] here. But they collect this data. The
[1:59:33] data goes into this UFO or whatever you
[1:59:36] want to call it and once a month it
[1:59:40] targets and dumps all that information
[1:59:42] into another UFO.
[1:59:45] >> That UFO was way bigger. It has an
[1:59:49] actual entity in it. And that entity may
[1:59:53] look somewhat like one of the other
[1:59:56] entities that we're talking about, but
[1:59:59] it's
[1:59:59] >> so like the ones you hear about. Yeah.
[2:00:01] Or do you think they're you hear these
[2:00:03] days I feel like you're hearing a lot
[2:00:05] more about human very humanike ones as
[2:00:07] well,
[2:00:08] >> right?
[2:00:09] >> Because we're probably
[2:00:11] we're probably getting closer and closer
[2:00:13] to the point where
[2:00:17] um that they'll
[2:00:20] we'll be able to know the answers
[2:00:24] uh and and know that the one entity is
[2:00:28] telling us whatever they want us to
[2:00:30] know. Okay.
[2:00:32] >> It's
[2:00:33] the the pro here's my problem. When when
[2:00:36] I was targeting this UFO, I had an
[2:00:39] expectation for the same thing.
[2:00:41] >> Yeah.
[2:00:42] >> Um it it was a kind of this uh sudden
[2:00:48] shearing away of my
[2:00:51] mental activity from the UFO. Like it's
[2:00:54] hard to explain. It's like cutting a a a
[2:00:57] tow rope or something was holding me up
[2:01:00] against it.
[2:01:02] >> Um was severed and
[2:01:06] non detached.
[2:01:08] And as soon as that happened, I had the
[2:01:10] memory of what I had seen up to that
[2:01:12] point. And from that point on, I had an
[2:01:15] image of uh an object of some kind. And
[2:01:20] what it was, I don't know if you
[2:01:21] remember the old peace symbol. Well, you
[2:01:23] >> Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. From Vietnam.
[2:01:25] >> Sure.
[2:01:26] >> Yeah. Okay. There was the upside down Y
[2:01:28] >> with the third
[2:01:30] >> fourth line.
[2:01:31] >> Yeah.
[2:01:31] >> Well, there's no fourth line. It's just
[2:01:34] an upside down line.
[2:01:35] >> Okay.
[2:01:36] >> No circle,
[2:01:38] >> just the upside down line.
[2:01:39] >> That's what the UFO was shaping.
[2:01:40] >> That's what I started picking up when I
[2:01:43] could no longer get into the UFO or see
[2:01:46] anything else.
[2:01:47] >> Sure.
[2:01:48] So,
[2:01:50] it was really hard to deal with because
[2:01:53] I expect information when I'm target
[2:01:56] targeting something, but I didn't get
[2:01:58] it. I just kept getting that symbol.
[2:02:02] >> And over time, I had an maybe 6 months
[2:02:06] later,
[2:02:07] I had this uh epiphany working on it
[2:02:11] before I went to sleep. And that that
[2:02:15] night um
[2:02:20] that night it changed because I was
[2:02:23] sitting in my office. I was working on
[2:02:26] something else and I had this my sketch
[2:02:30] of this thing I've been using for like
[2:02:32] six or seven months. I was I kept
[2:02:35] looking at it and then I looked to the
[2:02:38] left. There was a a box laying on the
[2:02:41] floor. It was empty box
[2:02:45] and I went, "Oh my god, I could see it."
[2:02:49] It's the outside corner of an empty box.
[2:02:53] >> Ah,
[2:02:54] >> you know the lines.
[2:02:55] >> Yeah.
[2:02:56] >> So if you're looking outside at the
[2:02:58] corner,
[2:03:00] you're looking inside. Same thing.
[2:03:02] >> Okay.
[2:03:03] >> So they they gave me something where
[2:03:05] perception starts and ends.
[2:03:08] Ah, so they're telling you this is like
[2:03:09] the edge of what you're able to
[2:03:11] perceive.
[2:03:12] >> Yeah, this is the start. Start, but this
[2:03:15] is the end.
[2:03:16] >> So, as soon as that happened, I started
[2:03:19] getting three little blocks, all
[2:03:22] identical little little
[2:03:25] they were all the same size,
[2:03:28] all I guess six-sided.
[2:03:32] And I couldn't figure out why. So,
[2:03:35] another six months goes by and I'm
[2:03:37] pounding away on that. And and when I
[2:03:39] get when I get a target where it's
[2:03:41] really hard to get information, what I
[2:03:42] do is I approach it in a very soft way
[2:03:46] and I just every now and then I'll just
[2:03:49] look and sometimes you can catch
[2:03:53] whatever offguard,
[2:03:55] so to speak.
[2:03:57] >> And so I was doing that for a long time
[2:03:59] and and I woke up in the middle of the
[2:04:01] night one night. I I had a dream. I was
[2:04:04] 3 years old and back in this home that I
[2:04:08] I was in when I was born in Miami,
[2:04:12] Florida. And back in the home, I was
[2:04:15] trying to sort how the rooms are set up.
[2:04:18] Uh so I have this great mind for detail.
[2:04:22] Yeah. Like I can go back to H
[2:04:25] one and a half. I think even one.
[2:04:29] >> Wow. uh and and could prove it. But
[2:04:33] anyway, I'm having this thought.
[2:04:37] My mother walks in and gives me this
[2:04:39] this uh these three blocks and they were
[2:04:43] outlined in red each side and it had
[2:04:46] >> A B Yeah.
[2:04:48] >> C and the other one was like one, two,
[2:04:51] three, that kind of thing.
[2:04:53] >> I went, "Oh god." You know, as soon as I
[2:04:56] had that, as soon as I rocked it, it
[2:04:59] changed again.
[2:05:00] >> H
[2:05:01] >> Now I got different size blocks,
[2:05:03] different different shape blocks, and
[2:05:07] they're all just white except for one
[2:05:11] shape. It has a special line on it. It
[2:05:14] goes like this, like a hook desk in the
[2:05:18] top.
[2:05:19] >> Okay.
[2:05:21] >> I don't know what it means.
[2:05:22] >> H
[2:05:23] >> I'm working on that. And I'm thinking, I
[2:05:26] must be
[2:05:28] the dumbest kid in the class because
[2:05:31] it's taking me months to figure this
[2:05:34] crap out,
[2:05:35] >> man. Yeah.
[2:05:36] >> And it's driving me crazy.
[2:05:38] >> Well, yeah. It's It's incredibly
[2:05:40] fascinating. So So what you're saying is
[2:05:42] you feel like when you are getting close
[2:05:44] to one of these anomalous targets, it's
[2:05:46] a it's so at the edge of human
[2:05:48] perception that it starts sending you
[2:05:50] this kind of symbolic
[2:05:51] >> Yeah. material. It's like you gota you
[2:05:55] got to approach it a certain way.
[2:05:57] >> Yeah.
[2:05:58] >> And and so I see I don't think these are
[2:06:02] >> uh I don't think I'm being trained in
[2:06:05] some way, but what it's basically
[2:06:08] telling me is the way you approach this
[2:06:11] and the way you use this and that
[2:06:15] >> has to be a certain dynamic. And so I'm
[2:06:18] getting this feel for how to open to the
[2:06:22] target.
[2:06:23] >> It almost seems like a statement about
[2:06:25] language, you know, because
[2:06:26] >> Well, it is because we have language.
[2:06:29] They probably have language, but two two
[2:06:32] will never meet.
[2:06:33] >> Yeah. Right.
[2:06:34] >> And the other part,
[2:06:37] um, conceptually speaking,
[2:06:41] concepts are the hardest thing in the
[2:06:42] world to remote view. where you where
[2:06:46] you have to hammer on concepts deals
[2:06:48] with future targets.
[2:06:50] >> Past targets piece of cake. You go back
[2:06:52] 30,000 100,000 years. Doesn't matter
[2:06:55] >> what you've done. Yeah.
[2:06:56] >> Because concepts exist for everything
[2:06:59] behind us.
[2:07:00] >> Mhm.
[2:07:01] >> In time, but going forward,
[2:07:03] no, that's all new,
[2:07:05] >> right? So it the way I like to explain
[2:07:08] it and I I talk about this in the class
[2:07:11] because I don't want people starting
[2:07:13] with future targets. I want them
[2:07:15] starting with past target. They learn
[2:07:18] more um but going into the future what
[2:07:22] you what's really happening is
[2:07:26] uh you're getting information and you
[2:07:27] can describe something perfectly and
[2:07:30] everybody looks at you and say you are
[2:07:32] insane.
[2:07:34] Okay. Cuz it there's no way,
[2:07:37] >> right? Yeah. What are you talking about?
[2:07:38] >> One of those examples would be 1975
[2:07:42] and you target a a specific room in
[2:07:45] Sylvania Corporation.
[2:07:47] >> Mhm.
[2:07:48] >> And it's making a loud B. It's making a
[2:07:50] sound sound like like that.
[2:07:53] >> Yeah.
[2:07:54] >> And there's roing
[2:07:56] fluid almost, but it's more like a gas.
[2:08:00] And there's all different colors popping
[2:08:03] in and out of reality. And out of the
[2:08:06] end is a super I mean absolute white
[2:08:09] light. So pure it looks like uh it's
[2:08:14] about that big around.
[2:08:17] >> Okay.
[2:08:17] >> And it's chewing through stainless
[2:08:20] steel.
[2:08:22] So it's a pump laser.
[2:08:23] >> Uhhuh. And you could describe it to a
[2:08:26] tea, but because no one has ever seen
[2:08:29] one, they go
[2:08:32] light cutting up steel. You're freaking
[2:08:35] nuts.
[2:08:36] >> Yeah.
[2:08:37] >> Okay. That's the difficulty,
[2:08:39] >> right? Well, I think that's the
[2:08:42] difficulty when you target a true alien
[2:08:45] in their saucer that you don't the the
[2:08:50] conceptual
[2:08:53] arrangement of things, the way things
[2:08:55] work
[2:08:56] >> is is mystifying. It's It's like walking
[2:09:00] into a uh I don't know uh a different
[2:09:05] world and then trying to figure out how
[2:09:08] to explain that to somebody. Uh so what
[2:09:12] I think's going on is I'm being shown
[2:09:16] how to properly approach something from
[2:09:19] a processing standpoint. Mhm.
[2:09:21] >> Uh now when we teach remote viewing here
[2:09:25] at the institute
[2:09:28] um we we have a special way of
[2:09:30] processing material.
[2:09:32] You you can't name it. You can only
[2:09:34] describe it. Okay? And and
[2:09:39] people
[2:09:41] will sometimes have a target that
[2:09:44] uh they'll say what it is. they they get
[2:09:47] the fullest stall right in the face and
[2:09:50] they'll say what it is and they'll be
[2:09:52] right. But that's not how you approach a
[2:09:57] remote viewing target. You can't say
[2:10:00] what it is. You have to describe it in
[2:10:02] great detail because in more cases than
[2:10:05] not, that's how you get targets in
[2:10:07] remote viewing
[2:10:08] >> is they have to be described. You cannot
[2:10:11] can't make assumptions. So, uh, I think
[2:10:15] it's the same thing with the aliens.
[2:10:17] >> Yeah.
[2:10:18] >> So, for Pat Price to say, "Oh, no, these
[2:10:20] are alien sites." This, you know, say,
[2:10:22] No, I don't think he understood. I think
[2:10:26] he was No, he was he knew he was working
[2:10:30] sites that he couldn't understand.
[2:10:33] >> So,
[2:10:33] >> that that really makes a lot of sense.
[2:10:35] >> Yes, that's what he did. You know, the
[2:10:37] other intersection of this I would
[2:10:39] absolutely love to hear your thoughts on
[2:10:41] is there's so much lore at least or
[2:10:45] reports that whatever is going on with
[2:10:47] UFOs, it's heavily tied into
[2:10:49] consciousness
[2:10:50] >> and whatever is piloting these things
[2:10:53] and and all the problem with all this is
[2:10:54] it's what stories you choose to believe,
[2:10:56] right? Like do you believe Bob Lazar? Do
[2:10:58] you believe uh Jim Lacatsky from the
[2:11:00] DIA? Do you believe all these people?
[2:11:03] It's hard to know, but one of the things
[2:11:04] you hear often is that
[2:11:06] >> somehow the mind
[2:11:08] >> is doing something almost like the the
[2:11:10] the craft is like an extension of the
[2:11:12] mind. And that means and if that's true,
[2:11:17] we probably don't have the psychical
[2:11:18] capacities to understand what would be
[2:11:20] involved in
[2:11:22] >> projecting our consciousness into a
[2:11:23] craft. But have you gotten any sense of
[2:11:25] this?
[2:11:25] >> Yeah, there's there where's the pilot
[2:11:28] station? It has none. It's like the the
[2:11:32] in in the case of a UFO, in most cases,
[2:11:36] the robotic part, the entities that are
[2:11:40] robotic are somehow linked to the
[2:11:43] robotic ship.
[2:11:45] >> And so, so there's no controls. It's
[2:11:47] like they are the control. They exist
[2:11:50] for both
[2:11:51] >> doing the job, being the pilot, all of
[2:11:54] that. And then when the job's done,
[2:11:56] they're gone and they just have the
[2:11:58] pilot left. And then maybe that pilot's
[2:12:01] replaces from somebody when they do a
[2:12:04] different kind of job. I don't know.
[2:12:05] >> Yeah.
[2:12:06] >> But there's this relationship between
[2:12:08] the entity and the ship.
[2:12:10] >> But then there's the same relationship
[2:12:12] between the one that has the actual
[2:12:17] entity on board
[2:12:19] differentiating from the robot. Okay.
[2:12:22] Robotic entity. But that that
[2:12:25] relationship is completely different.
[2:12:28] And in that case, there seems to be a
[2:12:31] specific point within the ship they have
[2:12:35] to be in to control it. So, so it a lot
[2:12:39] of little details change.
[2:12:41] >> Yeah.
[2:12:42] >> When you're going from the robotic to
[2:12:43] the real. And And the other thing that's
[2:12:46] kind of kind of weird,
[2:12:49] um, in in two cases, I was able to see
[2:12:54] see and see I use the term see.
[2:12:57] >> Yeah. Yeah. And that confuses people
[2:12:59] too. I was able to to understand
[2:13:03] that there was a uh
[2:13:07] uh something something hanging and I
[2:13:10] can't exactly say how it was hanging but
[2:13:13] it was hanging and it it almost felt
[2:13:16] like a it uh
[2:13:19] um a uh
[2:13:21] >> chandelier or
[2:13:22] >> No, it was more like shower curtain that
[2:13:26] had been cut certain ways.
[2:13:28] >> Okay. Okay. It It had a plastic feel to
[2:13:32] it, but it wasn't plastic. It also had
[2:13:35] the feel to it that it was part of the
[2:13:38] alien identity.
[2:13:40] >> Wow.
[2:13:41] >> And so it may be
[2:13:44] uh a suit or a piece of clothing or
[2:13:47] something that they wear when they're
[2:13:50] not in their vehicle.
[2:13:51] >> So it would be a biological suit.
[2:13:54] >> Wow.
[2:13:54] >> Maybe
[2:13:55] >> maybe there's like like a cognitive
[2:13:57] aspect to this. material almost,
[2:14:00] >> right? It it too is living.
[2:14:02] >> Wow.
[2:14:03] >> So they see they've mastered the ability
[2:14:05] to use living things
[2:14:08] >> as as part of their controls. They've
[2:14:12] mastered a lot of that and but they they
[2:14:15] don't it's like they don't uh
[2:14:21] I don't know. They're coming out of a
[2:14:23] whole left field. It's hard to explain.
[2:14:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. Very just what could be more
[2:14:27] foreign, right? something that has a
[2:14:29] completely
[2:14:30] >> different or so hyperfuturistic kind of
[2:14:33] technology that we can't even
[2:14:35] >> wrap our minds around it. So you you
[2:14:37] said the mission
[2:14:38] >> before
[2:14:39] >> and you did mention the sort of
[2:14:41] classical abduction
[2:14:42] >> type of scenario.
[2:14:45] >> Do you think the mission broadly is
[2:14:47] monitoring or controlling or do you have
[2:14:51] a sense of that? Yeah.
[2:14:53] >> Well, yeah. I mean
[2:14:58] there there is a lot of evidence and now
[2:15:01] this is not evidence I've collected but
[2:15:04] it's certainly evidence that other
[2:15:05] people have collected a lot of evidence
[2:15:08] that they have had full contact with
[2:15:11] humans
[2:15:14] and many of the humans they had full
[2:15:16] contact with aren't here anymore.
[2:15:19] >> They have vanished with the UFO.
[2:15:23] So
[2:15:26] there there's it's not an assumption,
[2:15:28] but there's something you can actually
[2:15:32] uh measure about that interaction. And I
[2:15:35] think it has to do with uh uh what they
[2:15:38] need that individual for. Uh there
[2:15:42] there's a couple cases out of Juno,
[2:15:44] Alaska, and and uh one out of I think
[2:15:49] it's Wyoming, but I'm not sure. I don't
[2:15:53] want to say it's Wyoming, but one of the
[2:15:56] states in the lower lower 48 and Juno,
[2:15:59] Alaska, where
[2:16:02] uh
[2:16:04] people have in in relationship with
[2:16:07] someone else has
[2:16:10] uh disappeared basically right out of
[2:16:14] the house sharing.
[2:16:16] >> Wow. And in in both cases, front door is
[2:16:20] locked, side door, back door,
[2:16:22] everything's sealed, the windows are
[2:16:25] locked. And yet the morning when the
[2:16:27] other person gets up and walks out to
[2:16:31] find their friend. Uh none of the locks
[2:16:35] are open, broken, or busted or anything
[2:16:38] else, but the person's just not there
[2:16:40] anymore.
[2:16:41] >> Wow. And
[2:16:43] to the extent that the sheriff's call,
[2:16:46] the police chief has called or the local
[2:16:49] military commander has called and they
[2:16:51] come and they inspect and it's true.
[2:16:56] No, it only the prince of the person
[2:16:58] that's still there on the locks and the
[2:17:01] >> Wow.
[2:17:01] >> Uh and in the windows and things and the
[2:17:05] person just vanished. Um um so so
[2:17:10] they're abducting people permanently.
[2:17:13] >> M
[2:17:15] it would it would look that way.
[2:17:17] >> Yeah.
[2:17:18] >> So
[2:17:19] >> why?
[2:17:20] >> Yeah. I don't know. I mean one could
[2:17:22] guess but
[2:17:23] >> my
[2:17:25] well my my
[2:17:29] thought. I have an idea.
[2:17:32] I if it's really hard to get that one
[2:17:35] entity here from another star
[2:17:40] and you really want the
[2:17:42] uh human species to join everybody else
[2:17:47] out there, then we have to change. We
[2:17:51] have to become more mature.
[2:17:54] Maybe they can't transfer enough people
[2:17:57] to tell to tell us that or teach us that
[2:18:00] or in some way display that. Yeah.
[2:18:02] >> So, the thing to do would be to abduct
[2:18:07] someone that the one energy could then
[2:18:12] produce offspring from
[2:18:16] to eventually create
[2:18:19] >> enough
[2:18:20] >> hybrids.
[2:18:21] >> Hybrids here that they could then
[2:18:23] interoperate with us
[2:18:26] and and we would know more about them. I
[2:18:28] I don't know. But it would change it
[2:18:31] would genetically change everything
[2:18:34] about humans
[2:18:36] over a very slow process.
[2:18:39] >> And everything they do is slow process,
[2:18:41] >> right? Yeah. I mean that would be the
[2:18:44] only way to slowly
[2:18:46] exert influence without being noticed
[2:18:48] would be to do things very slowly
[2:18:50] because it, you know, there's a classic
[2:18:52] question of like, okay, if they're here,
[2:18:54] they're more powerful. Where are they?
[2:18:56] Why don't they make their presence
[2:18:57] known? And maybe they're trying to
[2:19:00] monitor without interfering for some
[2:19:02] reason or there's some kind of
[2:19:03] evolutionary process that needs to
[2:19:05] occur.
[2:19:06] >> Yeah.
[2:19:07] >> Over a long period of time or through
[2:19:09] our own agency or something.
[2:19:11] >> Right. Exactly.
[2:19:12] >> And and
[2:19:14] it it's just so when it comes to I hate
[2:19:17] I hate targeting UFOs. I I really do. I
[2:19:20] I get angry. It's like uh I was here
[2:19:24] learning to control my auto bodies long
[2:19:27] weekends. I come here at midnight on
[2:19:30] Friday, I'm sorry, on Thursday night uh
[2:19:33] from Fort me.
[2:19:35] >> Uh they hired Bob Monroe to teach me how
[2:19:38] to control my out of bodies. And
[2:19:40] >> so all day Friday, Saturday, Sunday, we
[2:19:42] work on that and then I'd be back I'd
[2:19:45] leave at 4 in the morning on Monday and
[2:19:47] I'd be back doing remote viewing. So, I
[2:19:50] didn't I didn't have a day off for like
[2:19:52] a year and a half.
[2:19:53] >> Yeah.
[2:19:54] >> And I'm slower.
[2:19:56] >> Yeah.
[2:19:56] >> So, Bob and I are beating our heads
[2:19:59] against the wall trying to get me to do
[2:20:01] this
[2:20:02] uh and be successful
[2:20:05] uh at the bequest of uh uh the DoD. And
[2:20:09] right in the middle of all that, uh Bob
[2:20:12] wakes me. I'm taking a nap on a Saturday
[2:20:15] afternoon in the black cube over in the
[2:20:17] lab. Mhm.
[2:20:19] >> And uh Bob wakes me up. He says, "Some
[2:20:22] of your pals are here from DoD."
[2:20:25] And I said, "Pals,
[2:20:27] what are what are you talking about?" He
[2:20:29] said, "Well, they brought a target they
[2:20:31] want you to do."
[2:20:32] >> Mhm. Mhm.
[2:20:32] >> So I did the target and it was a UFO.
[2:20:37] Um, in in the processes of doing the
[2:20:40] target,
[2:20:42] I they had a card or something had GPS's
[2:20:46] written on it, seven GPS's. So, they're
[2:20:50] giving me the GPS's one at a time. And I
[2:20:52] immediately said, "Oh, this is a new
[2:20:54] discovery."
[2:20:56] And Bob says, "What are you talking
[2:20:57] about?" I said, "This is a a another
[2:21:01] pyramid,
[2:21:03] >> but it's bigger than Gizo." So, how in
[2:21:06] the hell did they hide this on the
[2:21:08] planet that we just discovered it? I
[2:21:12] actually thought it was this is a new
[2:21:14] discovery, but it's like larger than
[2:21:16] Giza, so why didn't we find it sooner?
[2:21:19] Yep, that was going through my head. And
[2:21:22] uh it turns out that there were other
[2:21:25] things, too. And uh I started picking up
[2:21:29] on an impact crater.
[2:21:31] >> Oh, wow. And so I'm I'm trying to figure
[2:21:34] out where the hell I am on the planet. I
[2:21:37] didn't know they had GPS's for all round
[2:21:43] objects in our entire universe.
[2:21:45] >> Whoa.
[2:21:46] >> Our sun, our solar system.
[2:21:48] >> So they have GPS for other planets.
[2:21:50] >> Yeah, planets have their own GPS system.
[2:21:52] I didn't know that.
[2:21:53] >> Do do they send satellites around to do
[2:21:55] that or how is how do they do that? They
[2:21:57] they right now there's a Mars surveyor
[2:22:01] that's been mapping it for years.
[2:22:04] >> Wow.
[2:22:04] >> And and the mapping is done with a
[2:22:07] camera from overhead and the 4x4
[2:22:11] negatives what they have for it. And on
[2:22:14] the outside edge of the negatives they
[2:22:16] have the GPS sticks. H.
[2:22:18] >> So
[2:22:21] they have all this mapping from Mars and
[2:22:24] uh each one of these 4x4s
[2:22:28] uh is on the ground is like 100 square
[2:22:31] yards or 100 square feet. I can't
[2:22:33] remember now which but it's a 100 or so.
[2:22:37] No uh not yards I'm sorry miles. It's
[2:22:41] 100 miles. So, uh,
[2:22:46] in this mapping,
[2:22:48] uh, that's where the target came from.
[2:22:50] >> Mhm.
[2:22:51] >> Well, I didn't know that. So, I'm I'm
[2:22:54] seeing this giant pyramid
[2:22:56] >> and then I'm talking about, uh, a sense
[2:22:59] of uh, people in the pyramid uh, being
[2:23:04] in machines against the wall of the
[2:23:07] pyramid
[2:23:08] uh, where they're trying to survive. Uh,
[2:23:11] so it's a adaptation kind of thing,
[2:23:14] waiting for help.
[2:23:17] And at some point I said to Bob, uh, the
[2:23:21] sun looks really weird.
[2:23:23] >> And he his comment was, I don't care
[2:23:25] about the sun. Go back to the pyramid.
[2:23:27] >> Yeah. Right. Yeah.
[2:23:28] >> So,
[2:23:28] >> yeah.
[2:23:29] >> Anyway, we worked on these locations for
[2:23:33] a couple hours and I got tired. So, I
[2:23:36] never did number seven. I did one
[2:23:38] through six. So when I came out, I said
[2:23:41] that, you know, I'm I've got humans
[2:23:45] look just like everybody in the room.
[2:23:47] Yeah.
[2:23:47] >> But they're 15t tall.
[2:23:50] >> And everybody went, "Whoa." Nobody
[2:23:53] expected that.
[2:23:54] >> And uh you would think the people
[2:23:57] waiting outside would be the ones who
[2:24:00] designed or figured on what the
[2:24:02] targeting would be.
[2:24:03] >> Yeah.
[2:24:03] >> No, they didn't know what the target
[2:24:06] was. So it was sent from uh Fort me. So
[2:24:11] Bob had the carding envelope in his
[2:24:13] pocket. So I opened it up and it said
[2:24:17] Mars 1 million BC.
[2:24:19] >> Yeah. I love that story. Yeah.
[2:24:20] >> I got angry as hell. And it surprised
[2:24:23] everybody.
[2:24:24] >> I said now how how in the hell am I
[2:24:29] going to say this was correct or this
[2:24:32] was good or this was bad or whatever?
[2:24:35] >> Mhm. Mhm.
[2:24:36] >> I got no way of proving anything.
[2:24:38] >> Yeah.
[2:24:39] >> So, I kept everything and I said, "Next
[2:24:43] time I'm in on the West Coast, I'm going
[2:24:45] to JPL, Jeff Lab."
[2:24:47] >> Yeah.
[2:24:48] >> And that that's they're running the
[2:24:50] mapping satellite. So, I'm going to get
[2:24:52] the 4x4s
[2:24:53] and I'm going to look at those
[2:24:55] locations.
[2:24:56] And uh they said, "Ah, they'll never get
[2:24:59] it to you." So, I went to JPL four
[2:25:02] months later and they have this big
[2:25:05] serving counter and there's a guy behind
[2:25:06] it. I walked up and I said, "U, I need I
[2:25:10] need to buy some 4x4 negatives." He
[2:25:14] said, "Uh, which area?" I said, "I don't
[2:25:17] know, but I had these GPS locations."
[2:25:20] And I hand him the card and he went he
[2:25:22] looked at his card and he said, "Oh,
[2:25:25] that's the old old city on Mars."
[2:25:29] Yeah. I I've always wanted to ask me out
[2:25:31] of the box.
[2:25:31] >> Yeah. I've always wanted to ask you
[2:25:33] about this with this story. Like so at
[2:25:36] some point people mainstream people were
[2:25:39] acknowledging this as real. That's so
[2:25:42] crazy.
[2:25:42] >> They he opened the drawer. He said, "Oh,
[2:25:44] that's the old city of Mars." He pulled
[2:25:46] a drawer up and hand me a packet. He
[2:25:49] already had all the 4x4s in it and
[2:25:51] everything. I brought it back. I took it
[2:25:54] to a photography place and I said, "At
[2:25:57] these locations, blow it up to where
[2:25:59] it's uh observable. You could tell what
[2:26:02] it is, but no bigger." And uh call me
[2:26:07] when you have all those done. And so
[2:26:11] they did all six, and all six match my
[2:26:13] sketches.
[2:26:14] >> Wow, that's amazing.
[2:26:16] >> Uh yeah.
[2:26:17] >> Now, now I got something I work with,
[2:26:20] right?
[2:26:20] >> Right. Well, I'm an intelligence
[2:26:22] officer, so
[2:26:25] I figure somebody at JPL knows what's
[2:26:29] going on.
[2:26:30] >> It sounds like it.
[2:26:31] >> Yeah.
[2:26:31] >> So,
[2:26:32] >> so that that gets to the big question of
[2:26:34] how much do you think
[2:26:35] >> people know about
[2:26:38] >> our relationship with them, uh, all the
[2:26:41] other things because obviously
[2:26:43] disclosure is a big topic right now.
[2:26:45] There's this mainstream movement. I
[2:26:48] think a lot of people look at it like I
[2:26:51] mean I as someone interested in this
[2:26:52] topic look at it with side eye and worry
[2:26:55] about narrative being manipulated and um
[2:26:59] you know a very doctorred kind of
[2:27:01] disclosure coming through
[2:27:03] >> and I suspect we are
[2:27:05] >> I think we are being manipulated but um
[2:27:10] once I had the the proof then I went I
[2:27:14] went through uh it was LinkedIn or
[2:27:18] something I looked for somebody who
[2:27:19] worked to JPL.
[2:27:20] >> Mhm.
[2:27:21] >> And I have a friend there now. And for
[2:27:25] the last 6 years, we've been studying
[2:27:28] these 4x4s.
[2:27:30] And I have about a hundred photos of
[2:27:34] things that should not be on Mars.
[2:27:36] >> Well, you must have much better quality
[2:27:38] ones now, right?
[2:27:39] >> Very high quality. Really? Wow. Yeah.
[2:27:41] One one uh found it by accident. it in
[2:27:46] the entire 100 by 100 miles. It there's
[2:27:50] nothing there. It just basically one
[2:27:53] humongous impact crater. But to the left
[2:27:57] of the impact crater, if you're really
[2:27:59] studying the full-size photo, what you
[2:28:03] see over here is a little black speck.
[2:28:06] And it's very visible because it's in
[2:28:08] the middle of a sea of white sand mouse
[2:28:12] >> just right in the center.
[2:28:14] So, I I went I blew that up. And what it
[2:28:18] is, it's a shipping container.
[2:28:21] >> Shipping containers.
[2:28:24] Uh you can overlay a grid that tells you
[2:28:27] what the measurements are between the
[2:28:29] grid lines.
[2:28:30] >> Mhm.
[2:28:31] >> Uh in that the size that I had blown up
[2:28:34] to, I blew it the grid up and the grid
[2:28:38] is uh lines separated by about 18 in.
[2:28:43] So,
[2:28:45] you know, 18 in
[2:28:48] gives you a measurement on the shipping
[2:28:50] container of somewhere around uh 15 ft
[2:28:56] uh 15 ft tall, 33 feet long, and about
[2:29:00] 12 1/2 ft wide.
[2:29:02] >> It's got two doors on it.
[2:29:04] >> Do you think this is an ancient shipping
[2:29:06] container or
[2:29:07] >> Absolutely. It is an ancient one.
[2:29:10] >> Wow. And obviously it's very big and
[2:29:14] very heavy. So how did it get there?
[2:29:18] >> Yeah, man. That's
[2:29:19] >> I have a picture. I have a picture. You
[2:29:21] know the big soup spoons that you stir
[2:29:24] big pots?
[2:29:26] >> Like if you were making a soup for the
[2:29:29] >> needy.
[2:29:30] >> Sure.
[2:29:30] >> You'd have this giant spoon. Well, I
[2:29:32] have a picture of a giant spoon. The the
[2:29:35] butt end of it is jammed in these rocks
[2:29:37] and it's just sitting there. I gotta see
[2:29:40] these pictures.
[2:29:42] I gotta see these pictures.
[2:29:44] >> Those two I can probably arrange.
[2:29:46] >> So, last question on this topic. Do do
[2:29:49] you think then there are
[2:29:52] >> people high up within the government,
[2:29:54] intelligence agencies,
[2:29:56] maybe private defense contractors who
[2:29:58] know the extent of our relationship with
[2:30:02] it, or do you think we're really all
[2:30:04] kind of like grasping at straws to
[2:30:05] figure out what's going on? I think it's
[2:30:08] really hard to make a deduction from the
[2:30:11] amount of information we have,
[2:30:14] but I do know for a fact that there is a
[2:30:17] lot of people who know about it. Okay.
[2:30:21] And I think that knowing about it
[2:30:24] doesn't give us an answer.
[2:30:27] So, right,
[2:30:29] >> they're sitting there waiting for
[2:30:31] something big to happen with it.
[2:30:33] >> Mhm. to to to understand it better.
[2:30:37] Uh I I do know that there is a like a
[2:30:42] huge push to to try to understand the
[2:30:47] rap the validity of this information.
[2:30:50] >> Right?
[2:30:52] It could be, and I'm just saying it
[2:30:54] could be, that everything we find on
[2:30:57] Mars,
[2:30:59] uh, if we were to go there and see it
[2:31:01] all, everything we might find on Mars
[2:31:05] could be, um,
[2:31:08] um, stuff that we just
[2:31:12] it's tool. It just goes back a long way.
[2:31:16] Um the the pictures I have of what
[2:31:19] appear to be machines or something like
[2:31:22] uh vehicles maybe they're sitting on the
[2:31:25] sides of dirt roads. The dirt roads go
[2:31:28] into openings in the sides of uh impact
[2:31:32] craters. So they obviously are mining
[2:31:35] things at some point.
[2:31:37] >> But th those uh machines are so badly
[2:31:41] damaged it it uh it's hard to tell what
[2:31:44] it was. Yeah.
[2:31:46] >> Um there's evidence that
[2:31:49] uh something happened very quickly.
[2:31:53] Uh
[2:31:55] did a lot of damage.
[2:31:58] Uh but I mean it it's almost funny when
[2:32:02] you look at some of these photos cuz you
[2:32:05] have a a you know a perfect mound of
[2:32:10] sand. I mean, it's like, you know,
[2:32:12] somebody just poured it out there.
[2:32:15] Perfectly smooth mound all the way
[2:32:17] around. And there's a group of them and
[2:32:20] it's all white sand.
[2:32:22] >> Over here, there's another group of
[2:32:24] them. It's all black sand.
[2:32:27] >> Wow.
[2:32:27] >> How do you separate? No, mother nature
[2:32:30] doesn't do that.
[2:32:31] >> Yeah, that's very
[2:32:32] >> There's an impact crater that's 200
[2:32:34] miles across. A monster impact crater.
[2:32:38] And coming right out of the middle is a
[2:32:40] line goes all the way halfway across.
[2:32:44] At halfway across it's covered by rock.
[2:32:47] >> But this line is a perfect 90° turn.
[2:32:53] 100 miles of perfect turn.
[2:32:56] >> Yeah, that's also not natural.
[2:32:58] >> Never going to happen in mother nature.
[2:33:00] >> But the most interesting thing is
[2:33:02] probably the one I'll send you a picture
[2:33:04] of.
[2:33:04] >> Okay, please do. uh impact crater and
[2:33:08] and the impact crater on opposite sides
[2:33:11] has been ground down
[2:33:15] exactly the same way on both ends to the
[2:33:19] center on both sides and there's a road
[2:33:23] runs through the heart of it straight as
[2:33:26] an arrow right through there.
[2:33:29] But that's not the the cool part. The
[2:33:31] cool part is
[2:33:34] um it and when you have it at a certain
[2:33:37] size, every time you change the size,
[2:33:40] you change the shadow right
[2:33:43] >> on the the ridge.
[2:33:45] But that's okay because the overlay
[2:33:48] grid's the same for each time you change
[2:33:51] it. As is the uh well, everything's the
[2:33:56] same. Nothing changes. It's like scaling
[2:33:59] up or scaling down.
[2:34:01] So on the right hand side you can see a
[2:34:04] triangular piece of land comes off the
[2:34:08] impact crater wall at the top not at the
[2:34:11] bottom comes off the wall at the top and
[2:34:14] it's triangular and goes back in. And in
[2:34:18] the middle of that is a foursided
[2:34:22] pyramid.
[2:34:24] So you're looking straight down on it
[2:34:25] because the sides are perfectly even.
[2:34:29] Okay. Each segment is the same.
[2:34:32] >> Mhm.
[2:34:34] >> The shadow in the wall is quarter inch.
[2:34:38] The quarter inch, if you compute where
[2:34:41] the camera was with the sun and all
[2:34:43] that, tells you that it's somewhere in
[2:34:46] the neighborhood of 600
[2:34:48] 800 ft.
[2:34:49] >> Wow.
[2:34:50] >> Quarter inch. That's the impact crater
[2:34:52] wall.
[2:34:54] 7 or 800 ft.
[2:34:56] The pyramid.
[2:34:59] Okay. Is in a pyramid. It has a shadow
[2:35:02] of two and a/4 in.
[2:35:05] >> Whoa.
[2:35:06] >> It's a shard. This thing sticks straight
[2:35:08] up into the air.
[2:35:10] >> Yeah.
[2:35:10] >> And it starts out with a with a base
[2:35:14] evensided base and goes way up into the
[2:35:18] air.
[2:35:19] >> Well, I actually went back to JPL with
[2:35:21] that one picture and I said,
[2:35:24] >> "What's that?"
[2:35:26] >> Yeah. And the guy said, "We don't know."
[2:35:30] And I said, "Come on, you must have a
[2:35:33] theory." He said, "Well, we do. We think
[2:35:36] it grew there."
[2:35:38] >> That's insane.
[2:35:40] >> Sorry. That's ridiculous.
[2:35:42] >> Yeah.
[2:35:42] >> If it grew there.
[2:35:44] >> Wow.
[2:35:44] >> But you can see it. It's right there.
[2:35:46] >> That is wild. That is so wild.
[2:35:49] >> Yeah. One more topic I want to at least
[2:35:51] touch on with you is
[2:35:54] >> I and many people I think they they have
[2:35:57] such a hard time believing
[2:35:59] >> that in 1995 all of the interest in SAI
[2:36:03] within you know the intelligence world
[2:36:06] and you know
[2:36:07] >> for military purposes just stopped
[2:36:09] because the PR was so bad.
[2:36:10] >> Yeah. So many people speculate that they
[2:36:13] they must have continued developing this
[2:36:15] within black programs or within, you
[2:36:18] know, private defense contractors that
[2:36:20] wouldn't have congressional oversight or
[2:36:23] >> whatever.
[2:36:24] >> What is your opinion on that? And
[2:36:27] >> what do you what do you think it all
[2:36:29] >> really?
[2:36:30] >> And and I'm I'm there's like a multitude
[2:36:34] of reasons why. Uh the primary reason is
[2:36:39] the Congress decided since so it had
[2:36:42] been in the hands and the control of of
[2:36:45] ANSCOM intelligence security command
[2:36:49] that it was in the hands and the control
[2:36:51] of uh give me a second um
[2:36:56] uh Defense Intelligence Agency. Then it
[2:36:59] was under the control of the CIA. Then
[2:37:02] it went back to the control of the uh I
[2:37:06] can't remember the name agency. Pardon?
[2:37:08] >> Was it DIA again?
[2:37:09] >> Yeah, DIA again. Right. Exactly.
[2:37:12] >> And and so uh whoever was in control of
[2:37:16] it was shared over a long period of
[2:37:18] time, 23 to 25 years. So what happened
[2:37:24] is Congress decided they wanted to
[2:37:27] disappear it because it was starting to
[2:37:29] get too much attention. And there was a
[2:37:31] lot of problem keeping it secret, all
[2:37:33] that sort of thing. So they ordered the
[2:37:37] CIA to take it over, turn it totally
[2:37:40] black and bury it. They could operate
[2:37:42] where no one would know. Okay. The
[2:37:46] problem with that is the CIA had just
[2:37:49] finished getting rad over the coals for
[2:37:51] five years.
[2:37:52] >> Yeah.
[2:37:53] >> By Congress because of MK Ultra.
[2:37:55] >> Yeah. Now MK Ultra was the use of
[2:38:00] psychedelics for interrogation.
[2:38:02] >> Yeah.
[2:38:03] >> And they violated themselves by using it
[2:38:08] on one of their own people at a party
[2:38:10] for kicks.
[2:38:11] >> Mhm.
[2:38:12] >> The guy took a nose dive out of a nice
[2:38:14] story building smack on the sidewalk.
[2:38:19] It's that's extremely unfortunate
[2:38:21] because
[2:38:23] that created a massive stink.
[2:38:27] >> Yeah.
[2:38:27] >> So, Congress found out CIA was the ones
[2:38:31] handling it. So, it was a lack of uh a
[2:38:35] lack of control that allowed it to
[2:38:39] happen. So, they were all over Congress
[2:38:42] with this this uh investigation, this
[2:38:46] investigation, that sort of thing. And
[2:38:48] so, uh, CIA didn't want to have that
[2:38:52] again. They knew they were going to get
[2:38:54] a problem when they got the, uh, remote
[2:38:56] viewing program.
[2:38:59] Secondarily to that, um, one of the
[2:39:02] other issues was, uh, we had some
[2:39:06] Congress people in Congress that wanted
[2:39:08] that wanted it out in the open. Uh now I
[2:39:12] have to think there was a kind of a
[2:39:15] two-part
[2:39:17] desire there. One part was
[2:39:21] uh it didn't belong in a secret project.
[2:39:24] The second part was we can use it as a
[2:39:26] weapon against our guys running this or
[2:39:29] running.
[2:39:30] >> Mhm. you know, in different areas
[2:39:33] because it'll you all you had to say was
[2:39:36] this guy agreed with the psychics and
[2:39:39] he's done.
[2:39:41] >> Yeah.
[2:39:42] >> Um so,
[2:39:45] uh the CIA tried to to get out of it.
[2:39:48] Congress said, "No, you work for us. We
[2:39:50] don't work for you. Uh we want it we
[2:39:54] want it to become a dark project."
[2:39:56] And so the CIA said, "Okay, we'll accept
[2:39:59] it if it's inspected and in good shape."
[2:40:02] So they gave seven of the worst possible
[2:40:04] files to two people. Uh Jessica Us.
[2:40:09] >> Yes.
[2:40:09] >> And Jessica Uts is probably
[2:40:13] one of the most respected statisticians
[2:40:15] in the world, not just in America.
[2:40:19] She said, "Even with those bad files,
[2:40:21] you could you could safely say that this
[2:40:24] is real and everything is happening."
[2:40:27] Um, so I scissored her report out and
[2:40:31] kept the one scientist report in there
[2:40:34] who had said, "Even if it was true, I'd
[2:40:37] never reported this."
[2:40:38] >> And so they closed it. This secondary
[2:40:42] reason might be because
[2:40:45] Robert Gates was the when it started,
[2:40:48] Robert Gates was the senior most analyst
[2:40:52] out of the uh out of the
[2:40:55] >> the CIA, right? Robert Gates. Uh, no it
[2:40:59] was uh he was he was CI he was a senior
[2:41:03] senior analyst Russian analyst for all
[2:41:07] the analysts Russian analyst on the
[2:41:09] second floor of Lley.
[2:41:11] >> Okay.
[2:41:11] >> Okay. Anyway, it was kicked up. It this
[2:41:15] one building somewhere in in Russia had
[2:41:18] been targeted because it was a brand new
[2:41:21] building. it was being kicked up from
[2:41:24] many of the different
[2:41:26] uh responsible agencies. Anyway, this
[2:41:29] this building wasn't connected to water.
[2:41:32] It was sitting alongside a harbor, but
[2:41:35] it was had no connection to the water
[2:41:38] and they were this building has was
[2:41:40] huge.
[2:41:42] >> You could put the Mall of Americas in
[2:41:44] Minnesota in there. It wouldn't touch
[2:41:46] the walls or ceiling. So, uh, they had
[2:41:49] railroad card car loads of materials
[2:41:52] going in for a long time and, uh,
[2:41:56] anyway, they were trying to figure out
[2:41:58] what was going in the building.
[2:42:00] Nobody could figure it out. They
[2:42:01] couldn't buy a picture of the inside of
[2:42:03] the building. I think they were offering
[2:42:05] three million bucks. Wow.
[2:42:06] >> For one picture.
[2:42:07] >> Wow.
[2:42:08] >> Couldn't get it. And And it existed in
[2:42:11] an area called Sea Deetsk in Russia.
[2:42:14] >> Yeah. north of the Arctic Circle, which
[2:42:17] was a top secret city, one of their top
[2:42:20] secret cities that they did lots of
[2:42:22] classified work in. And so nobody could
[2:42:26] get an answer and they were really
[2:42:28] trying hard to break it. And uh so they
[2:42:32] tasked us. It was one of our first of
[2:42:34] three targets that we got. Impossible
[2:42:37] target, double blind, sealed in an
[2:42:41] envelope, not knowing anything about it.
[2:42:45] And uh guy named Hartley Trent and I
[2:42:48] said basically the same thing that it
[2:42:50] was a new type submarine and that it was
[2:42:53] huge. it. We said both said it was 30
[2:42:56] feet shy the length of a Soviet aircraft
[2:43:00] carrier and and we talked about all the
[2:43:03] upgrades in it which half of which
[2:43:06] turned in turned up on the Hunt for Red
[2:43:10] October movie 11 years later later
[2:43:13] >> and we said it was basically two
[2:43:15] submarines stuck together this way with
[2:43:18] a new wrapping.
[2:43:19] >> Mhm.
[2:43:20] >> So it was very broad and huge.
[2:43:24] Well, Robert Gates at the time being the
[2:43:27] s the senior analyst
[2:43:30] uh looked at our stuff and submarine.
[2:43:34] Are you kidding? It's not even connected
[2:43:35] to water. So, he wrote total fantasy on
[2:43:38] the top threw in the corner.
[2:43:41] Um at least that's what I was told. And
[2:43:45] um there was a uh an admiral brought it
[2:43:48] back who I had known for many years. had
[2:43:51] done work with him or for him as a
[2:43:54] regular intelligence person and he
[2:43:58] brought it back and I said you need to
[2:44:00] take it back and he said really he said
[2:44:02] he's not going to like that I said I
[2:44:04] don't care take it back and as he got up
[2:44:07] to leave I wrote a note put it on top I
[2:44:10] said total fantasy it'll be launched in
[2:44:12] 112 days
[2:44:14] >> Jay
[2:44:16] so he took it back and it got thrown in
[2:44:18] the corner
[2:44:21] So
[2:44:22] time when he's coming back after he
[2:44:26] dropped it off, he stopped at DNR and
[2:44:28] arranged to have two overhead satellites
[2:44:31] at 114 days. Look at the harbor and 114
[2:44:37] days
[2:44:38] side torn out of the building. big
[2:44:41] channel cut to the harbor and the
[2:44:43] Typhoon submarine is tied up to the side
[2:44:45] of a Soviet aircraft carrier
[2:44:47] >> to block its view from the entry and
[2:44:51] they were outfitting it for sea. So, a
[2:44:54] lot of pictures taken and uh probably
[2:44:58] got more in that one submarine than the
[2:45:00] entire Soviet subpack in history. And uh
[2:45:04] Robert Gates was really embarrassed.
[2:45:07] Well, he got embarrassed three more
[2:45:09] times later.
[2:45:10] So he he I think he was the director of
[2:45:15] the CIA when they were ordered to take
[2:45:16] it over. That's another possibility.
[2:45:19] >> Yeah. So So you're saying because of his
[2:45:21] personal vendetta against the program,
[2:45:23] he would not allow
[2:45:24] >> right
[2:45:25] >> anything.
[2:45:26] >> Now a lot of people say, "Oh, he used to
[2:45:28] direct the CIA. Later he became the
[2:45:30] >> Yeah. Secretary of Defense.
[2:45:32] >> Secretary of Defense."
[2:45:34] >> Okay. That still doesn't mean he wasn't
[2:45:37] a political animal. Okay. Right.
[2:45:40] >> So,
[2:45:41] um then there's a third third theory
[2:45:44] which is
[2:45:46] uh it actually didn't do well.
[2:45:49] >> Mhm.
[2:45:50] >> Okay. Now, my buddy Dr. May, it turns
[2:45:54] out I I worked 41 years on the science
[2:45:57] side. That's four labs as a viewer and
[2:46:01] as a researcher.
[2:46:04] And uh Dr. May and I were together the
[2:46:08] entire time and as Dr. May says uh how
[2:46:13] much proof do you need? He he says,
[2:46:16] "Imagine this. It it proving something
[2:46:19] in science is like building a new
[2:46:22] restaurant and you make up your first
[2:46:24] menu and you invite 15 of the most
[2:46:29] powerful
[2:46:31] uh food critics in the world to come the
[2:46:34] first night and half of them keep coming
[2:46:37] back every night, week after week after
[2:46:39] week for 23 years." right
[2:46:41] >> now. You tell me it did not do very
[2:46:44] well.
[2:46:45] >> Okay,
[2:46:46] >> it's it's BS. So, nobody knows for sure
[2:46:51] where the fix came from, but it was uh
[2:46:55] it was just continued closed. Now,
[2:47:00] it may be that they tried to make
[2:47:02] everyone believe that it actually didn't
[2:47:05] work very well so that it could be used.
[2:47:09] >> But I will tell you, um, there is
[2:47:12] nowhere on the planet anybody that was
[2:47:16] better than Harley Tren or me. And
[2:47:19] nobody's ever come up and said, "Gee,
[2:47:23] you know, we wish that you were still
[2:47:25] working."
[2:47:27] Uh, plus
[2:47:28] >> really so you've never had external
[2:47:31] >> Well, and uh if I did, I wouldn't talk
[2:47:34] about it.
[2:47:34] >> Well, I mean, you could say broadly yes
[2:47:36] or no.
[2:47:37] >> Ed Ed May
[2:47:40] >> uh
[2:47:44] he basically owns the science. H
[2:47:48] >> he's we've got uh
[2:47:53] 60s something years of science,
[2:47:56] 41 years of it. He and I know intimately
[2:47:59] no one's ever said a word to us about
[2:48:01] give us a copy.
[2:48:04] >> You you don't reinvent all that science.
[2:48:08] >> Yeah.
[2:48:08] >> You know, that's a lot of sc that's 1.8
[2:48:12] 8 million words of science
[2:48:14] >> and we we crushed it down to 1.4 mill
[2:48:18] just to get it published.
[2:48:20] >> So it's in a stack of documents
[2:48:24] >> nobody cares
[2:48:25] >> because what the real value of it is
[2:48:28] like the fact that it works. People
[2:48:30] don't people don't really want to know
[2:48:33] they they only pretend they want to know
[2:48:34] the data when they want to pretend that
[2:48:36] it doesn't work. Right. Right. Exactly.
[2:48:37] >> But then when you actually confront them
[2:48:39] with the data
[2:48:40] >> they don't want to read it. The the only
[2:48:42] point I'm trying to make is if you're
[2:48:43] going to keep doing it, you need the
[2:48:45] data,
[2:48:46] >> right?
[2:48:47] >> Uh
[2:48:49] when I was when I was the in the
[2:48:51] collection side, I was in Stargate in
[2:48:54] the military
[2:48:56] 7 and a half years.
[2:48:58] Um I was the only remote viewer left the
[2:49:01] last two years. Arrest haded died. The
[2:49:05] pre preliminary
[2:49:07] reason for death in the Stargate
[2:49:10] program, stress.
[2:49:12] You could never describe the stress
[2:49:15] involved. It killed everybody.
[2:49:19] And except for one person who quit, left
[2:49:21] early because our boss was a
[2:49:25] misogynistic at the time. So
[2:49:31] when you stop and think of it that way,
[2:49:33] I thought I escaped till I retired. When
[2:49:36] I retired, five heart attacks, triple
[2:49:39] bypass,
[2:49:40] >> then four more heart attacks. Uh I spent
[2:49:44] 10 days where my heart kept stopping. I
[2:49:47] was in an ICU in a country hospital.
[2:49:50] They just wanted to stabilize me enough
[2:49:52] to get me to the UVA uh heart center
[2:49:56] where I have open bypass.
[2:50:00] I haven't had a heart problem since
[2:50:01] 1985.
[2:50:03] >> Thank God.
[2:50:03] >> And and the reason why is I acknowledged
[2:50:07] it was stress. I got counseling. I
[2:50:10] figured ways of dealing with it and
[2:50:15] doesn't bother me anymore.
[2:50:17] >> Wow. So I learned to deal with it. We
[2:50:20] didn't have that opportunity on the
[2:50:22] operational side. But while I was on
[2:50:25] operational side, what they kept saying
[2:50:27] to me was I kept saying, "Where's the
[2:50:30] science? Where's the science?" And they
[2:50:32] kept saying, "You don't need it. You
[2:50:34] don't need it." And I kept saying, "I
[2:50:36] do. I want to get better."
[2:50:37] >> Mhm.
[2:50:38] >> And they kept saying, "You're doing
[2:50:40] fine."
[2:50:42] Okay. Science doesn't understand
[2:50:45] collection. Okay. So, we don't want any
[2:50:49] scientist in here.
[2:50:51] That didn't make any sense to me at all.
[2:50:54] So, when I retired from the army, I went
[2:50:56] straight to Stanford Research Institute.
[2:50:58] >> Yep.
[2:50:58] >> And got hired. And I I worked there
[2:51:01] until it closed. Went to SEIC. Worked
[2:51:04] there till it closed. I went this um CSL
[2:51:08] cognitive science lab. Worked there till
[2:51:11] it didn't work there anymore. And then I
[2:51:13] went to LFR laboratory fundamental
[2:51:16] research in Palo Alto.
[2:51:17] >> Well, now that you brought this up, that
[2:51:19] that's one of the rumors is that, you
[2:51:20] know, you can see the sort of trail of
[2:51:23] um Stargate going over to SIC
[2:51:26] >> and there's
[2:51:28] >> clearly not much over as much oversight
[2:51:30] into a private company doing this kind
[2:51:32] of work.
[2:51:33] >> No.
[2:51:33] >> So, so many people looking like it seems
[2:51:36] like it went black and went in there.
[2:51:38] >> Yeah. Except that the lab at SIC
[2:51:43] >> Mhm.
[2:51:44] >> was Ed May and me.
[2:51:45] >> Yeah.
[2:51:46] >> That's it. That's the whole lab.
[2:51:47] >> And there were no other labs.
[2:51:48] >> Oh, we No, we had other people in there
[2:51:51] with us. But when when it closed down at
[2:51:55] SIC and went to cognitive sciences lab,
[2:51:57] it was me and Ed.
[2:51:59] >> Mhm.
[2:51:59] >> So, no, we were the science and nobody
[2:52:03] was coming to us and asking us for
[2:52:05] anything.
[2:52:05] >> Wow.
[2:52:06] >> So,
[2:52:07] >> that's crazy. No, my my sense of it is
[2:52:10] no, there is no program and hasn't been
[2:52:14] since it closed in 95.
[2:52:17] The the other the the other significant
[2:52:20] problem with this is when you start
[2:52:24] looking at remote viewing and what's
[2:52:26] required and everything.
[2:52:29] Uh you can teach remote viewing in a
[2:52:33] week, no problem.
[2:52:35] >> Mhm. And in teaching remote viewing,
[2:52:37] what happens is
[2:52:40] um you you can only teach to a certain
[2:52:43] point,
[2:52:45] you don't have enough time, you don't
[2:52:47] have enough people, you don't have
[2:52:48] enough anything to keep with the same
[2:52:51] people.
[2:52:52] >> Yeah.
[2:52:53] >> Because uh they can't afford to be there
[2:52:56] for more than a week. So, one of the
[2:52:59] issues that comes up is
[2:53:02] um
[2:53:04] people who get trained who can
[2:53:05] demonstrate remote viewing at a fairly
[2:53:09] good rate. Uh we we call it the gestalt
[2:53:13] can do the gestalt remote viewing. Um
[2:53:17] they they're doing a good job, but
[2:53:20] they're white belts. Okay? If you look
[2:53:23] at it like it's a martial art of the
[2:53:25] mind, they are definitely white belts.
[2:53:29] They can demonstrate certain moves, so
[2:53:31] to speak. But if they want to get really
[2:53:35] good at it, you need the science. And
[2:53:37] when you bring the science in the door,
[2:53:40] now you have a string of improvements
[2:53:42] that you can make that I call it a
[2:53:45] improvements to the skill set. Mhm.
[2:53:48] >> Beginning remote viewers don't know if
[2:53:50] they're coming in the front door, the
[2:53:52] window, out of the basement. They have
[2:53:54] no idea how they're getting to a target.
[2:53:57] >> Yeah,
[2:53:58] >> that would be an improvement. Skill set.
[2:54:01] Color is an improvement. Size is an
[2:54:04] improvement. Everything you say about
[2:54:06] emotion, everything is a skill set
[2:54:09] improvement.
[2:54:11] By the 14th year,
[2:54:14] I could show you product that is
[2:54:16] incredible.
[2:54:17] >> Yeah.
[2:54:18] >> Uh five pictures of a single target that
[2:54:21] are like absolutely cutaways of the
[2:54:24] target.
[2:54:24] >> Yeah. Your drawings are unbelievably
[2:54:28] >> by the 25th year.
[2:54:31] If you said to me, tell us I'm tracking
[2:54:35] a spy. Tell us where the spy is.
[2:54:38] One drawing with an X on it. He's
[2:54:41] standing right here,
[2:54:43] >> which is all the more reason why I can't
[2:54:45] imagine how you were not continuously
[2:54:47] tapped.
[2:54:48] >> It takes 25 years to get there
[2:54:52] >> is the problem. And the when did you
[2:54:55] ever hear the government want to spend
[2:54:57] 25 years doing anything?
[2:54:59] >> Yeah.
[2:54:59] >> Okay. It It's a It's a That's like the
[2:55:02] government going out and hiring priest.
[2:55:05] >> Okay.
[2:55:06] >> Yeah. It's a commitment that most people
[2:55:09] will not make, especially won't make
[2:55:12] with the amount of money they're willing
[2:55:14] to pay
[2:55:16] for it. So,
[2:55:18] uh, unfortunately also the stress gets
[2:55:22] to people. If they don't train to deal
[2:55:24] with the stress, then they're in
[2:55:26] trouble.
[2:55:27] >> Mhm. So,
[2:55:30] uh, I have I'm probably the only viewer
[2:55:33] that has a target tracking us by for six
[2:55:36] months, then telling you what he's
[2:55:38] doing, telling you who he is, telling
[2:55:42] you
[2:55:44] how it will be used, all of that indep
[2:55:48] independently reviewed, 100% correct.
[2:55:52] It's on display in the oneofa-kind
[2:55:54] museum at the National Security Agency.
[2:55:57] >> Really? Wow. Yeah. Cool.
[2:55:58] >> You know what my tracking data was?
[2:56:01] Social Security number.
[2:56:03] >> Wow.
[2:56:04] >> That's it. They controlled everything in
[2:56:08] the lab where I was working. Ed May and
[2:56:10] I, we knew nothing.
[2:56:13] Social Security number. So you can tell
[2:56:17] somewhere between the ages of 14 and 70.
[2:56:21] Male or female. That's the two things
[2:56:23] you can tell.
[2:56:26] But I put him where he was standing
[2:56:28] three times, one drawing each time.
[2:56:31] >> Wow.
[2:56:32] >> And then drew what he was building,
[2:56:34] which was classified.
[2:56:37] Never been done before
[2:56:39] with enough detail an independent agency
[2:56:42] said they could mimic it.
[2:56:43] >> Wow.
[2:56:45] >> Along with the frequencies that were
[2:56:47] microwave because I drew the wave guides
[2:56:49] and told them how big they were.
[2:56:53] Does this have to do with like like
[2:56:55] microwave weaponry?
[2:56:57] >> Maybe.
[2:56:58] >> Okay. Wow.
[2:57:00] >> Everything. And and and then
[2:57:04] uh
[2:57:06] they tried to phone me once. They showed
[2:57:09] me a picture of an aircraft hanger, you
[2:57:12] know, big hanger where they pop up park
[2:57:14] a Boeing 707 or something. The doors are
[2:57:18] shut and parked on the front apron are
[2:57:20] nine different kinds of airplanes.
[2:57:23] They said, "Tell us what they're hiding
[2:57:25] in the aircraft hanger."
[2:57:28] >> And I gave him five cutaways of the
[2:57:30] Abrams tank.
[2:57:32] >> Who Who did this? Who tried to trick
[2:57:34] you?
[2:57:34] >> Who did this? It was Defense
[2:57:35] Intelligence Agency.
[2:57:37] >> And it was the Abrams tank.
[2:57:40] And it was at the time top secret. It
[2:57:43] was a proto protoype.
[2:57:46] Wow.
[2:57:47] >> So, but that's over 30 years.
[2:57:50] >> Yeah. Okay. Experience.
[2:57:53] >> So, the problem is is multiffold. One is
[2:57:56] nobody wants to spend that kind of time.
[2:57:59] Second is if you want a life, you don't
[2:58:02] get in this.
[2:58:03] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[2:58:05] >> The third is you have to have an
[2:58:07] extremely inquisitive mind to want to
[2:58:10] know
[2:58:11] what you're doing wrong since birth. M
[2:58:15] >> cuz teaching it is not teaching anything
[2:58:17] new. It's destroying bad habits.
[2:58:21] >> Yeah. Like unlearning things.
[2:58:23] >> Unlearning.
[2:58:24] >> That's what it is. It's all unlearning
[2:58:27] bad habits
[2:58:29] >> and developing new habits and the way
[2:58:31] you process material
[2:58:33] >> because when you get the information,
[2:58:36] it's not exactly what it is. It's always
[2:58:40] your subconscious digging something out
[2:58:43] of your memory that's closest to it
[2:58:46] because you haven't seen everything in
[2:58:47] the world. Like I've never seen a a
[2:58:50] microwave system,
[2:58:52] >> but I've seen
[2:58:54] now I've seen the wave guides.
[2:58:56] >> Okay.
[2:58:58] >> So, uh what's fascinating to me is the
[2:59:02] more the more of that you do, the more
[2:59:04] of a threat you become to your own
[2:59:06] nation.
[2:59:08] True. Yeah.
[2:59:09] >> Think about it. That's I think the
[2:59:12] reason why they shut it down.
[2:59:13] >> Yeah. Yeah. Because if you can do if you
[2:59:15] can point your awareness there, you can
[2:59:17] point it anywhere. And that's a
[2:59:19] dangerous
[2:59:20] >> if if I said uh
[2:59:23] when you produce information that you
[2:59:26] shouldn't know,
[2:59:28] >> right?
[2:59:28] >> And you're standing in front of somebody
[2:59:30] who says,
[2:59:34] uh, how would I put it? Uh,
[2:59:38] there's only three people in the entire
[2:59:41] world that know we're planning a
[2:59:44] >> Yeah.
[2:59:45] >> And you're number four.
[2:59:47] >> Yeah.
[2:59:47] >> Give us a source or die right here.
[2:59:50] >> Yeah.
[2:59:52] >> Put that on for size.
[2:59:54] >> I think that's an awesome way to end it,
[2:59:56] man. That's a That's a great mic drop
[2:59:58] moment. Thank you so much, you're an
[3:00:00] absolute legend. And like I said, it's
[3:00:02] not lost on me that we're doing this
[3:00:04] >> here of all places right on Bob's
[3:00:07] birthday.
[3:00:08] >> And I'm not a big 11-11 person, but it's
[3:00:10] his 111th birthday. And right when I
[3:00:12] looked at the clock, right when we
[3:00:13] started recording, it was 11-1ven. So
[3:00:16] there you go.
[3:00:17] >> Yeah.
[3:00:18] >> Should have been.
[3:00:19] >> Yeah. Thank you, my friend. Thank you so
[3:00:20] Blossom.