Transcript
[0:00] We all start with this beautiful
[0:01] innocence and these beautiful unmet
[0:03] needs. But they can make us into really
[0:06] dangerous people who hurt people. Sex
[0:08] and love addiction which has done me in
[0:10] so many times. My will [music] was like,
[0:12] I want this person at any cost. And
[0:14] God's like, okay, at any cost, go. Here
[0:17] comes the cost. So, what happened with
[0:19] you and Rehea?
[0:20] >> Um, we were secretly in love with each
[0:22] other, but she was diagnosed with
[0:24] terminal [music] pancreatic and liver
[0:25] cancer and given 6 months to live. And
[0:27] so she got addicted to [music] cocaine.
[0:30] But God's got jokes. She lived actually
[0:31] for 18 months. [laughter]
[0:34] And then now you're a hospice patient
[0:35] who's also a drug addict. And then she
[0:38] died. She was doing her drug, but she
[0:40] was my drug. There's no way out. It
[0:43] turns out there always is, and that
[0:45] [music] is to tell the truth. For me,
[0:47] that's what it means. Know thyself. I
[0:49] will never abandon you. I will never
[0:50] turn my back on you. You excavate
[0:52] yourself, you find a lot in there. You
[0:54] find a lot of darkness, but you find a
[0:55] lot of light, too. What if somebody told
[0:57] you you're not a good singer, this
[0:59] person is a good dancer, you are not.
[1:00] This one is the writer, [music] you are
[1:01] not. Creativity is taken from you. And
[1:03] for some people, that's the end of the
[1:05] story. I can absolutely promise you that
[1:07] if you sit down and tell that story that
[1:09] is within you, you will be a different
[1:11] person. Don't you kind of want to know
[1:13] who you'll be if [music] you actually do
[1:14] that thing?
[1:15] >> And if somebody wanted to do it tomorrow
[1:16] morning, what would they do? Oh, well,
[1:19] yeah, you got it.
[1:25] >> Hey everyone, welcome back to the Know
[1:27] Thyself podcast. Our guest today is one
[1:29] of the world's most decorated authors,
[1:32] most notably Eat, Pray, Love, Big Magic.
[1:35] Her memoir, All the Way to the River,
[1:37] amongst many others. She is somebody
[1:39] that is incredibly inspiring to me. the
[1:41] way that she lives her life
[1:42] courageously, authentically,
[1:44] shares how to unleash her creativity,
[1:47] and it's been a long time coming. I'm so
[1:50] excited to have you, Liz Gilbert. Thank
[1:51] you for being here.
[1:52] >> Hi. I'm so happy to be here. [laughter]
[1:54] >> We did it.
[1:55] >> We did it.
[1:56] >> Yeah.
[1:56] >> You made it.
[1:57] >> We made this occur.
[1:58] >> Yes. [laughter]
[2:00] >> Or it didn't stop it from occurring.
[2:02] >> I'm honored that [clears throat] uh I'm
[2:03] one of your first back off of your
[2:05] sbatical that you're just coming off of.
[2:07] >> Yeah. Actually, this is the first thing
[2:10] I've done public facing in six months.
[2:12] I've after the first time in my life
[2:14] I've ever like dropped working and
[2:18] talking and producing and even creating.
[2:20] So, so I don't know if I remember how to
[2:23] do this. Let's see. We might just have
[2:24] to have a normal human conversation.
[2:27] [laughter]
[2:27] >> We can always just Yeah, let's just plan
[2:28] on that. Um, what was the what was the
[2:31] impetus for the sobatical?
[2:33] >> Um, oh well, let's just get right into
[2:35] it. Um, I
[2:38] uh I take my direction from a higher
[2:41] power who I call God. Um, I do that
[2:44] every day in this practice that I've
[2:46] done for years that's called two-way
[2:48] prayer where I um ask an on the page
[2:54] like first thing in the morning, what
[2:56] what do you want me to do and who do you
[2:58] want me to be today and where do you
[2:59] want me to go? And um and then I just
[3:02] write the answer and then that's what I
[3:04] do. Um, and that's been like that for
[3:07] quite a while now. And about
[3:10] two years ago, um, that voice started
[3:13] saying, "We have to plan for you to
[3:15] stop. Um, you've been going really hard
[3:19] forever, and you've never stopped, and
[3:22] you've never paused, and if you don't
[3:24] stop, something's going to stop you, and
[3:27] you won't like how that feels. So, um,
[3:30] let's orchestrate that." and and it's
[3:32] going to take a minute to plan because
[3:35] you know like a life is sort of like a
[3:37] it's like an aircraft carrier. It's like
[3:39] moving at this trajectory. You can't
[3:41] just stop it on a dime. Like you've got
[3:42] to sort of slow it down. So I spent a
[3:45] year and a half we that voice told me to
[3:48] set the dates um from the beginning of
[3:50] March till the beginning of September of
[3:52] this year and just start telling
[3:54] everybody in my life um I'm out. Like
[3:56] don't don't plan anything. Don't count
[3:58] on me for anything. And I've been
[4:00] enforcing it with just ferociously um
[4:04] because things arise that are really
[4:06] tempting and um or that other people
[4:08] really want me to do and I've just been
[4:10] really firm like absolutely not. Um and
[4:14] and also part of the instruction for
[4:16] that sbatical was uh and I think this is
[4:19] interesting because when I told people I
[4:21] was on sabbatical, the first question
[4:22] everybody asked me was what what are you
[4:23] going to do? And that's the culture that
[4:26] we live in and the times that we live
[4:27] in. And the whole point of a sobatical
[4:29] is that you don't you don't do anything.
[4:32] [laughter and gasps] And um and a friend
[4:33] of mine was like, "You're never going to
[4:34] be able to do that. You're going to come
[4:35] out with a novel written by the end of
[4:37] it." But in fact, I've disciplined
[4:39] myself to not create and to not produce
[4:42] and to not generate anything, but to
[4:45] just go every day where the day took me.
[4:48] >> And um and no traveling either, no big
[4:50] adventures, no learning how to master
[4:52] another language, no getting in the best
[4:53] shape of your life. like all of those
[4:55] things that we would fill if you were
[4:57] given a vacuum typically we would fill
[4:59] it with that. Um, so I've been sleeping
[5:02] in, um, walking my dog a lot, going to
[5:07] do whatever my friends want to do on any
[5:09] given day, driving people to the airport
[5:10] cuz I have time, [laughter]
[5:12] just being available to life. And it's
[5:15] been incredible. And as reluctant as I
[5:18] am to come out of it, it's nice to be
[5:20] here today talking to you, but um, it's
[5:22] a little hard to to think about
[5:24] rejoining
[5:26] the world of any kind of purpose after
[5:28] this. It's been really nice. Hopefully
[5:30] this is a smooth
[5:31] >> I know this is a good one. This is a
[5:33] good [laughter] one. This is I can tell
[5:34] this isn't going to be too jarring.
[5:36] >> Yeah, we'll keep a warm inviting
[5:38] entrance back into the busy [laughter]
[5:40] heights of
[5:41] >> the social space. I've taken very short
[5:44] stints like that. I have friends that
[5:45] have taken longer ones and have heard
[5:47] and felt that it's surprisingly hard to
[5:50] do nothing. Has Was that Did that come
[5:52] up for you? Was it challenging?
[5:54] >> Yeah, I kind of felt like I went through
[5:55] withdrawal for the first month. I felt
[5:57] depressed and scared. Um, I felt scared.
[6:01] Like that was the main thing that I felt
[6:02] was fear. And that's such a good
[6:05] indication
[6:07] that the way I had been living had some
[6:09] sort of manic addictive quality to it.
[6:11] That if it's taken away, it's
[6:14] frightening. Um, I felt purpose anxiety.
[6:18] Um, I felt relevance anxiety. Um,
[6:23] am I gonna still will people forget that
[6:25] I exist if I'm not out there
[6:30] beating beating down their doors telling
[6:32] them that I'm madder? [laughter]
[6:35] You know, like if I like if I say no,
[6:37] like I mean, you may know this feeling
[6:38] too. If I say no to something, will that
[6:41] be the last opportunity that that thing
[6:43] ever exists? Um, will people be
[6:45] offended? Um, what am I going to do?
[6:48] like literally what am I going to do
[6:50] with my days? And then I kind of eased
[6:54] into it and I learned how to do some
[6:56] things that I didn't know how to do. For
[6:57] instance, I now know how to sleep in. Um
[7:00] I grew up on a farm and I grew up in a
[7:02] really high performance family and in a
[7:04] really high performance culture and I
[7:08] have typically woken up every day at
[7:10] 4:30 or 5:00 in the morning like I got
[7:12] shot out of a can and already feeling
[7:14] like I was behind. And so now like I'm
[7:17] sleeping until like 10:00 in the
[7:19] morning. I'm like what the what?
[7:21] [laughter]
[7:22] Like half the day is gone. All the
[7:24] important stuff has been done. But it's
[7:26] been really restful. Um I ended up
[7:29] getting a lot of healing from some
[7:30] physical stuff I had going on. Um
[7:34] >> yeah.
[7:34] >> Wow.
[7:35] >> And I didn't write. I didn't create. I
[7:37] didn't generate. and the world didn't
[7:40] fall off its axis and birds didn't drop
[7:42] dead out of the skies and rivers didn't
[7:44] run backwards and um I think I need more
[7:48] of this.
[7:51] I think so many people can relate with
[7:53] that like bug we have in our head that
[7:55] ties our worth with continual
[7:56] improvement in performance like words
[7:59] cog and
[8:00] >> who are we if we're not outputting
[8:02] something of externally verifiable
[8:05] measurable value in the marketplace you
[8:08] know
[8:09] >> and if you do stop you have to stop in
[8:11] order to improve yourself in some way
[8:14] >> so go learn how to be a better meditator
[8:16] or you know like yeah or like train for
[8:20] a triathlon
[8:21] Um, but what if you don't have to do
[8:24] that? [laughter]
[8:25] >> Yeah. If you don't have a project, then
[8:27] you become the project.
[8:30] >> I uh I'm curious about the texture of
[8:32] that voice and that practice that you
[8:34] feel like you get guidance from that you
[8:35] call God that we all have different
[8:37] names for.
[8:38] >> Yeah.
[8:38] >> That
[8:39] >> has a bigger intelligence that we can't
[8:42] always track in the moment of where
[8:43] we're being guided. Yeah.
[8:44] >> Um, it feels like for me as I read your
[8:48] work and I look more into your story,
[8:51] you've had these various moments where
[8:53] you've made a practice of creating space
[8:55] to hear something bigger than your own
[8:57] sort of ego, a comparative of what you
[8:59] want, but like what does kind of life
[9:01] want of you?
[9:02] >> Yeah.
[9:02] >> What have you learned about what happens
[9:05] when you listen to that voice years down
[9:07] the road?
[9:09] the more I and I I want to be careful of
[9:12] my language here. I also really want to
[9:15] be careful about
[9:18] what I mean and don't mean when I say
[9:19] God. Um because that is a word that is
[9:23] very traumatizing for some people. um
[9:27] especially people who grew up in high
[9:28] demand religions that they maybe barely
[9:31] made it out of with their lives or who
[9:34] experienced abuse or who were abused by
[9:36] that word or threatened by that word. Um
[9:40] so I always want to say like if you
[9:43] don't believe in God, whatever God you
[9:44] don't believe in, I also don't believe
[9:46] in that God. So we're good [laughter]
[9:48] and I'm good with whatever God you do
[9:50] believe in. Um but but I don't know what
[9:52] else to call it. Um, and that word
[9:55] doesn't feel traumatizing for me. That
[9:57] word feels warm and nourishing and
[9:59] loving and present for me. And it isn't
[10:02] any measure in any way the God that I
[10:06] was taught about when I was a kid. Um,
[10:09] it's much more amusing and amused. Um,
[10:13] allowing like I don't have a commanding
[10:16] God. I have a God who lets me do
[10:18] whatever I want often to my own peril.
[10:21] It's like, "Oh, you want to do that?
[10:23] Okay, you can do that. Let's see how
[10:24] that goes. [laughter]
[10:26] And most most of my life has been like,
[10:27] what happens if I stick this fork in the
[10:29] in the, you know, outlet? Like that's
[10:32] and God's like, try it. You know, see
[10:34] what happens when you put your fork in
[10:35] that outlet. Like whatever that outlet
[10:36] might be or whatever the fork may be.
[10:38] And um and
[10:40] so I don't have a punishing, commanding,
[10:43] forbidding God. I have a God who wants
[10:46] me to have every kind of experience. Um,
[10:49] but who also doesn't want me to suffer
[10:51] and has direction for me to minimize
[10:54] suffering? And I find that the more I'm
[10:57] in alignment with that guidance,
[11:00] the more I don't do what I'm it's
[11:02] suggested that I not do, and the more I
[11:04] do do what is suggested that I do, the
[11:08] the suffering drops away, the anxiety
[11:10] drops away, the neurosis drops away, and
[11:12] the terrible consequences drop away. So,
[11:15] it's almost like I think of this God
[11:17] that I listen to as kind of like this
[11:19] lantern holder who's just sort of one
[11:21] step ahead of me saying, "I would
[11:23] suggest that you put your foot here
[11:24] >> and I would suggest that you put your
[11:26] foot there and I would suggest that you
[11:28] I would suggest you don't go in that
[11:30] direction. I would suggest you go a
[11:32] little more in this direction." And when
[11:34] I one of the hardest things for me to
[11:36] put down as I was getting sober and
[11:39] learning how to trust that voice more
[11:40] was um it's funny you made a psilocym
[11:43] psilocybum joke when we came in like was
[11:46] IA mushrooms you know all psychedelics I
[11:49] I love that [ __ ] and and I was like
[11:52] surely I don't have to put this down you
[11:54] know when I get sober and and I would
[11:56] negotiate with that voice and that voice
[11:58] said um no you don't have to um you can
[12:02] do whatever you want. I've always let
[12:03] you do whatever you want, but you're
[12:05] asking me what's going to be best for
[12:07] you. And my suggestion, loving you and
[12:10] knowing you, is that you see what
[12:12] happens if you don't alter yourself at
[12:15] all and just come with me and let's do
[12:17] life with no with no alteration to it.
[12:22] >> Um, I want you to learn how to be here
[12:24] in this reality, in this in this video
[12:27] game. um rather than constantly trying
[12:29] to get out of it. And but you can do it
[12:33] if but you don't have you don't have to
[12:34] listen to me, you know. Um and I know
[12:37] well enough to know it's not going to go
[12:39] well for me if
[12:41] I don't listen to that. There's some
[12:44] reason that that voice is saying maybe
[12:46] don't do that. And so the more that the
[12:50] more that I am in alignment,
[12:53] like other things drop, you know, like
[12:56] anxiet other anxieties that I thought I
[12:58] would carry forever drop. Shame that I
[13:00] thought I would carry forever drops.
[13:02] Dependencies that I thought I would
[13:04] never be able to get rid of are suddenly
[13:05] like taken and the path just gets
[13:08] lighter and lighter and lighter. So um
[13:11] yeah, there's no reason to not go that
[13:14] way that I can see.
[13:18] How does it show up for you? I know you
[13:20] obviously have a devotional kind of
[13:22] writing practice. Uh does it appear to
[13:26] you in the same way your the own your
[13:28] own voice in your head appears to you?
[13:31] >> It's it's filtered through my brain. So,
[13:34] but it's not my voice. Um, and and I
[13:41] think interestingly and tellingly, I
[13:43] would not be able to even describe what
[13:46] that voice is. Um, I just know that it's
[13:50] God, [laughter]
[13:51] you know, like be still and know that I
[13:53] am God. Like, I just it so obviously is.
[13:56] Um, and and what I think is interesting
[13:58] is that I've
[14:00] I've loved God for a long time and I've
[14:02] believed in God for a long time. I think
[14:04] I always did, even growing up in a
[14:05] family that didn't. Um, but I never
[14:08] trusted God. I always felt like I was on
[14:11] my own here in the universe. And and now
[14:15] there's this like deeper trust. Um, but
[14:21] the voice is
[14:27] it's just for me,
[14:30] you know. It's just for me. And I think
[14:32] I can tell that it is that and not my
[14:35] will because of the instant release of
[14:38] anxiety.
[14:40] >> It's um like, oh, we're home.
[14:44] You know, literally like, oh, thank God.
[14:46] Okay, I don't have to I don't have to
[14:49] know what to do. I don't have to plan. I
[14:51] don't have to strategize. Um I don't
[14:53] have to hustle. I don't have to be
[14:55] vigilant. Um I'm good. I'm just I call
[15:00] it the warm vanilla pudding hum of
[15:02] well-being. [laughter]
[15:04] No, no big sharp highs. I can't do highs
[15:07] anymore because I can't take the
[15:08] comedowns anymore.
[15:09] >> So, no big sharp highs, no big huge
[15:12] dips. Just like
[15:13] >> warm vanilla.
[15:14] >> Warm vanilla pudding in the belly. It's
[15:16] good. It's just like and that's like I
[15:19] just want to I always think of um Keith
[15:22] Richards saying like you can keep the
[15:24] rock, I'll take the roll, you know? Like
[15:26] that's sort of how I feel like I don't
[15:27] want the rock anymore. It's just like
[15:29] I'm in the role. I'm in the role. And I
[15:30] think that's
[15:32] the only way that it can work for me
[15:36] that I can be in the role
[15:37] >> cuz my mind will want to rock out.
[15:41] [laughter]
[15:42] But it doesn't end well when it does. So
[15:45] it's just a notebook. It's just a book.
[15:47] But I used to think that God was like
[15:49] unreachable and unknowable, you know,
[15:52] just I I believed in the concept of God
[15:54] and I love the concept. I'm like, you
[15:55] could never know God and God's like I'm
[15:58] literally right here. Like nothing is
[16:00] more knowable than me. Ask me anything,
[16:03] you know? Like let's let's talk. Like
[16:05] there's there's no barrier here. We're
[16:08] good. Like I'm not abstract and I'm not
[16:11] mysterious. I'm very clear and I'm very
[16:13] straightforward. All you have to do is
[16:15] ask um with an open mind and I'll tell
[16:17] you. And that's like, "Oh, I thought you
[16:20] were a mystery." God's like, "No, you're
[16:21] a mystery to yourself. [laughter]
[16:24] I'm the least mysterious thing in the
[16:26] entire universe. [laughter]
[16:28] You make mystery where there isn't any."
[16:31] >> You know, that's what my ego does.
[16:33] [laughter]
[16:34] What's been your journey from that voice
[16:37] strengthening that connection to hearing
[16:39] that in in a moment of practice to
[16:42] seeing that throughout your day in all
[16:43] your relationships and and um as opposed
[16:46] to a singular practice in the morning?
[16:48] Has that been an evolution? Has what
[16:51] does that look like?
[16:52] >> It's an Yeah, it's been an evolution to
[16:54] where more it's more I can access that.
[16:58] Um, I can just do like a little spot
[17:00] check and be like, "Yes, no, maybe."
[17:03] >> Red light, green light, yellow light.
[17:05] Um, and and even
[17:10] I don't know, like even an example, I
[17:11] was my dog. I have a little dog who
[17:14] we're very bonded and she hardly ever
[17:16] has to be on her leash. She's always
[17:18] just right at my feet. And um, and I the
[17:23] other day was walking and lost her,
[17:24] which is very rare. And and it was only
[17:27] for five or 10 minutes, but you know,
[17:29] instant panic, coyotes, bears,
[17:33] dognappers,
[17:35] you know, trap, car accident, like
[17:37] where, you know, and and I just did a
[17:39] little and God's like, she's fine, you
[17:42] know, she's fine. She's okay. She's
[17:43] coming back. Just give her a minute, you
[17:45] know, and she came back. Um, and I So,
[17:48] it lowered my anx like it's like really?
[17:50] Yeah, she's she's okay. So there's or if
[17:52] like I'm in a car with somebody who's
[17:53] driving dangerously, I'm like, "Are we
[17:56] are we good?" [laughter]
[17:57] Like, "Yeah, you're all right. You're
[17:59] all right. They're going a little fast,
[18:00] but they're all right." Um, and then
[18:02] other times it'll be like, "No." Um, I
[18:05] was kayaking with a friend of mine in
[18:07] Panama who's not a very strong swimmer,
[18:09] and we were out on open water, and it
[18:11] was really beautiful, and all of a
[18:12] sudden that voice just said, "Turn
[18:15] around now. Um, that's enough. You've
[18:17] come out. You know, you're deep enough
[18:19] out in the water. Go back." And I don't
[18:20] even need to know or want to know what
[18:22] would have happened [laughter]
[18:24] had I continued. But I trust I'm like
[18:27] we're we're going back now. Um why? Cuz
[18:31] cuz we are cuz that's enough. [laughter]
[18:34] >> Enough excited.
[18:35] >> Yeah. Cuz we are. Let's go wrap it up.
[18:39] [laughter]
[18:40] So yeah, it's just it's and it's not me
[18:43] making you know I just think so much of
[18:45] my life I was so anxious. So, as a
[18:48] child, I used to
[18:50] um when I got a wish, you know, on a
[18:53] birthday wish or something, I always had
[18:55] the same wish, which I think is really
[18:56] disturbing for a seven or 8-year-old to
[18:58] have this wish. But it just shows how
[19:00] much anxiety I was living in. But the
[19:02] wish was I wish I always knew what to do
[19:05] >> cuz the world felt really, really scary
[19:08] and it felt imperative in my home and in
[19:10] the world that I never make a misstep.
[19:12] And um and I feel like in a way that
[19:16] that childhood prayer has been answered,
[19:18] but I'm not the one who has to know.
[19:21] Just next right step here, next right
[19:24] step here, you're good.
[19:27] Over the years of being able to develop
[19:29] that trust and that capacity to listen.
[19:32] Um, I think it's inspiring because a lot
[19:34] of people, myself and I'm sure everyone
[19:36] who's listening, yearns for that level
[19:39] of attunement and guidance and what
[19:41] feels like reassurance.
[19:43] And
[19:45] at times when checking in internally,
[19:48] I think we have many patterns and fears
[19:51] that can masquerade as a voice of reason
[19:53] that um that we can start to delineate
[19:56] the texture and the way that you express
[19:59] that God or this intelligence or life or
[20:02] love
[20:04] >> um it it feels like inherently kind,
[20:06] reassuring. What other things have you
[20:08] noticed are like singularly that thing?
[20:12] >> Not grandiose. Mhm.
[20:14] >> Um, so I I can know my ego by a couple
[20:17] tells. And one is grandiosity.
[20:20] [laughter]
[20:20] >> Go figure.
[20:22] >> And one is self-hatred, which is another
[20:24] kind of grandiosity, weirdly.
[20:26] >> Um, and the narcissism of despair, you
[20:29] know, like I am so I'm uniquely [ __ ]
[20:32] You know, [laughter]
[20:35] in the rooms of recovery, they call it
[20:37] terminally unique, but it's like I am
[20:39] particularly and especially doomed. You
[20:41] know, like like my ego wants to be
[20:43] important in any way. If it can be
[20:44] important by being the most [ __ ] up
[20:46] one, it'll it'll take that. You know,
[20:49] >> it's a great dating profile description.
[20:51] >> Uniquely [ __ ] [laughter]
[20:55] >> You seem fun. We should hang out. Are
[20:57] you also uniquely terminally [laughter]
[20:58] [ __ ] you know, and I'm not I'm not
[21:01] like I love in the rooms of recovery
[21:02] they say you're just another bozo on the
[21:04] bus. Like I like I am just another bozo
[21:06] on the bus and also very special and
[21:08] precious, but but like not uniquely
[21:10] [ __ ] and not uniquely important
[21:11] either, you know? Um and uh and then
[21:16] control like I think in order for me to
[21:19] deepen that trust, there's something
[21:21] that God asks me in return, which is to
[21:24] to drop control.
[21:26] I say that as if it's easy es especially
[21:28] as somebody who's always been very
[21:30] controlling because that also comes out
[21:32] of fear obviously but um like I'll give
[21:35] an example when I came into and I write
[21:37] about this in my book about being I
[21:39] identify as a sex and love addict the
[21:41] book is about that it's about addiction
[21:43] of all kinds but it's especially about
[21:45] in my case intimacy addiction and sex
[21:47] and love addiction which has done me in
[21:50] so many times um because my will was
[21:52] like I want this person at any cost and
[21:56] God's like, "Okay, at any cost, go. Here
[21:58] comes the cost." You know, here it is.
[22:00] And um when I first came into the rooms
[22:02] of recovery, I was negotiating with God
[22:05] and saying like, "If I if I enter this
[22:08] program and I do all the steps and I get
[22:10] a sponsor and I do the work perfectly,
[22:13] will you give me one more great love
[22:15] story in my life?" And the answer came
[22:18] very clearly. I have no such promise for
[22:21] you. Like I don't I also don't
[22:23] negotiate. Like that's another way that
[22:25] I know. Yeah. Like I also know it to be
[22:27] God cuz God doesn't need to negotiate,
[22:29] [laughter]
[22:30] you know, and God's like I don't work I
[22:32] don't like broker deals, you know. Um
[22:36] and I don't make you asurances of what
[22:41] the future will hold. I'm just asking
[22:43] you if you'd like to come with me. And
[22:45] will you come with me
[22:47] with no need for any assurances? And
[22:49] will when you come to me, will you come
[22:52] to me not holding anything behind your
[22:54] back? Like any of your old methods of
[22:57] control, any of your old methods of
[22:58] manipulation, any of your old methods of
[23:00] survival, any of your old wishes that
[23:02] you've got hidden from me. Like, how
[23:05] about just open-handed put everything on
[23:07] the divine fire and walk and just walk
[23:09] toward me and don't bring anything with
[23:12] you and will you still do this program
[23:16] with that same level of commitment if I
[23:18] don't promise you another great love
[23:20] story? And search yourself for the
[23:23] answer cuz if you if the answer is no,
[23:24] don't bother doing the program
[23:26] [laughter]
[23:26] and don't bother let's not why are you
[23:28] even doing this? you know. Um, and so I
[23:32] think that the God that I know and love
[23:34] often asks me to put things down as much
[23:39] as to come. It's like drop that, drop
[23:42] that, put that down, put that ambition
[23:44] down, drop this outcome. And that's also
[23:47] how I recognize it cuz my ego won't let
[23:49] go of anything. I mean, my ego won't let
[23:51] go of anything unless it has claw marks
[23:52] in it from how hard I've been holding on
[23:53] to it, right? So like, so a voice that
[23:56] says to me, "Put that idea down. put
[23:58] that dream down, put that ambition down,
[24:01] put that grandiosity down, put that
[24:02] self-hatred down, put that wish down.
[24:05] Could only be a higher intelligence than
[24:07] than mine. So, I think I recognize it by
[24:09] that as well.
[24:11] >> It's kind of the opposite of
[24:12] manifesting.
[24:13] >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you have an agenda.
[24:15] >> It's kind of the opposite of a vision
[24:16] board. It's like, put the vision board
[24:18] down.
[24:19] >> Put the manifestation down.
[24:21] >> Yeah.
[24:21] >> Put the agenda down. Put the dream away.
[24:24] I mean, this is so hard in this culture
[24:26] to say let go of the dream. Um, but
[24:30] there's a dream that I dream bigger than
[24:32] any dream I've ever had, which is
[24:33] serenity. And and I can't have the dream
[24:37] and have an attachment to the dream and
[24:38] also be have any serenity. So, I kind of
[24:41] have to let the dream go.
[24:43] >> It's powerful because I feel like so
[24:45] many things we declare that we want,
[24:48] things that we give with subtle
[24:49] expectations or expecting of a return.
[24:53] um
[24:55] quote unquote surrender yet still not
[24:59] >> you know there's still an expectation of
[25:01] of an outcome and um I think the more
[25:05] I've gotten to read through your life
[25:07] story through your journey of love and
[25:10] addiction and the pursuit which is of
[25:15] many addicts at different points of of
[25:17] finding that sense of peace and solace
[25:19] and serenity through the faulty means of
[25:22] a neverending perpetual stream of
[25:25] stimulus from the external, right, in
[25:27] some form.
[25:28] >> Um,
[25:30] coming to then go into recovery and um
[25:35] >> I I can't but help think because there's
[25:39] there's so much I want to I want to dive
[25:40] into.
[25:42] It was so beautiful to to read um all
[25:45] the way to the river and um the
[25:48] amazingly courageous vulnerable shares
[25:51] throughout. I'm like, "Wow, this girl's
[25:53] she's she's no joke. She's willing to
[25:55] lay it all out there." And uh I think
[25:58] that's so scary for us to even like be
[26:00] seen a little bit, let it let alone to
[26:02] like lay out your secret self, so to
[26:05] speak. Um what could you share a bit of
[26:08] that? Is it Marquez kind of framework of
[26:10] the three three selves?
[26:12] >> Yeah. Um Garcia Marquez said that every
[26:16] person has three selves, a public self,
[26:18] a private self, and a secret self. And
[26:20] and I remember sharing that with a
[26:22] really wise friend of mine years ago who
[26:24] said, "Oh yeah, you have to have a
[26:25] secret self." Because if for most
[26:27] people, if their secret self came out,
[26:31] it would it would destroy not only their
[26:33] public life but their private life.
[26:35] Private life meaning like the intimates
[26:37] around you. Like if people really knew
[26:39] what you were doing, [laughter]
[26:41] you know, like if everyone knew what
[26:43] everyone was really doing, like the
[26:46] threat to
[26:48] yourself would be so extreme, which is
[26:51] how we become secret keepers and and
[26:54] often keep secrets even from ourselves.
[26:57] Like there's stuff, you know, there's
[26:59] engines running in my ego that are,
[27:02] you know, behind doors that I can't even
[27:04] see like that are governing me that I
[27:06] can't even see what I'm up to. Um, and
[27:09] it's not easy to to to work around all
[27:12] of that. Um, but
[27:17] yeah, it's it didn't seem like there
[27:20] would be much of a point in writing this
[27:22] book if I didn't lay out the secret
[27:25] self. Especially because I'm also
[27:28] writing about I'm writing about my
[27:29] relationship with my partner Rehea and
[27:30] I'm writing about her drug addiction
[27:32] which was a very obvious like drug
[27:35] addiction and alcoholism and substance
[27:37] abuse can become a really obvious
[27:39] iteration of the damage that's happening
[27:42] inside of our secret selves. Um and and
[27:46] I wrote about like the degradation of
[27:47] her drug abuse and what I witnessed in
[27:49] that when I went through that with her.
[27:51] But I have my own way of medicating my
[27:58] misery and it's not quite as obvious as
[28:01] like heroin and cocaine, but it's it can
[28:05] be just as deadly. Um, and that is my
[28:09] desperate need for somebody to love me
[28:12] at any cost, including somebody who's in
[28:16] drug addiction and can't even take care
[28:17] of themselves. and I'm expecting that
[28:20] person to somehow be my salvation. Um, I
[28:24] feel like I got off your question a
[28:25] little bit, but
[28:27] but what's the point really, you know,
[28:29] like and and and there's a I wish I
[28:31] could remember who it was. Some
[28:32] memoirist said she got accused once of
[28:33] oversharing and she was like, "Well,
[28:35] what do you want in your memoir an
[28:36] underhar like [laughter]
[28:39] the whole point is that?" And also the
[28:41] god of my understanding said, "Do it
[28:44] like tell the story. Tell the whole
[28:46] story. don't tell part of the story.
[28:48] Don't do any image management
[28:51] >> in this in this book. Um because it
[28:54] won't be of any service to anybody. And
[28:57] Rheao was so good. My partner was so
[28:59] great at being transparent and
[29:01] vulnerable when she was sober. And um
[29:04] and I took inspiration from her as well.
[29:06] She was she could be such an incredibly
[29:08] open book. And I think she would have
[29:09] wanted the book to be as honest as it
[29:12] is. I know she would have. M I think we
[29:14] can all relate to that neverending image
[29:17] management which is perpetually
[29:20] exhausting. Yeah. [laughter]
[29:22] So exhausting.
[29:23] >> It's exhausting.
[29:24] >> Do you do you see it as a goal of sorts
[29:27] um to align those three selves like the
[29:30] public, private, secret? Do you think
[29:32] that they should be different? Like I'm
[29:35] curious
[29:37] what what the voice of of God, notorious
[29:42] God, [laughter]
[29:44] Bernie Wilson says that
[29:46] >> it's so good.
[29:46] >> Um would uh would would say there.
[29:50] >> Well, there's such a you have the right
[29:52] to privacy, you know. Um, and and there
[29:56] are I'm going to quote I think my friend
[29:59] Cheryl Strait here who said that when
[30:02] you're writing a book, you should write
[30:04] from your healed scars, not from your
[30:06] open wounds. And
[30:09] so by the time I sat down to write this,
[30:11] I was writing from healed a place of
[30:13] healed scars.
[30:14] >> Um, if I had written this book
[30:16] immediately after Rehea died,
[30:18] >> that would have been writing from an
[30:19] open wound. And if I had written this
[30:21] book when I was 6 months sober, that
[30:24] would have been writing from an open
[30:26] wound. But to write it five years sober,
[30:28] to write it seven years after Rya died,
[30:31] um there was enough time and enough
[30:33] processing
[30:35] in enough of the processing of my
[30:38] secrets in a safe container, which is
[30:40] what 12step provided for me. And the 12
[30:43] steps themselves have that baked in
[30:46] where it's like you're going to do a
[30:48] complete and fearless moral inventory.
[30:50] You're going to go through your past
[30:53] with a fine tooth comb and find every
[30:56] instance where you ever harmed anybody
[30:57] and find those people and make amends to
[31:00] them. You're going to you're going to
[31:02] look for every place that you're being
[31:04] selfish and controlling and
[31:06] self-centered. You're going to stop
[31:08] lying. you're going to like all of these
[31:11] things are are like the ongoing work of
[31:14] being sober, being what Bill W, the
[31:17] founder of AA, called emotionally sober,
[31:19] which is very different from just not
[31:21] using anymore. Like emotional sobriety
[31:23] is about taking that complete
[31:26] accountability for yourself every single
[31:27] day. And I remember telling a friend of
[31:29] mine that I was doing that, that I was
[31:31] in step four and five, which is for me
[31:33] took over a year of really excavating
[31:37] like where was I harmful? Where did I
[31:39] lie? Where was I self-centered? Where
[31:41] was I manipulative? Where did I have a
[31:43] hidden motive? Who have I hurt? Um and
[31:47] and I remember she just said, "I'm so
[31:49] glad I don't have to do that." And my
[31:50] feeling was like, I'm so grateful I get
[31:52] to do this because this stuff has been
[31:57] governing my behavior for the last 50
[32:00] years and like hurting me and hurting
[32:03] other people and I don't want to keep
[32:06] doing this. Like I don't want to I want
[32:08] to break the patterning of how I have
[32:10] been. I don't want to operate the way
[32:12] I've used to operate. And at the time
[32:14] that I was doing that, if you had told
[32:16] me someday you're going to write a
[32:17] memoir where you're going to talk about
[32:18] this process, I would have been like,
[32:20] you must be smoking roofing tar. There
[32:22] is no way I would want anybody to know
[32:25] any of these things about me. But but
[32:27] once that was done um and the story of
[32:31] Rehea was still lingering in my mind,
[32:34] then that's when my higher power was
[32:36] like, and now I want you to talk about
[32:37] this publicly.
[32:38] >> Um but not while you're doing it,
[32:40] >> you know? um like give yourself some
[32:42] space in there to to work that stuff
[32:45] out.
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[33:45] So, you opened up a bit with your own
[33:48] version of addiction and seeking solace
[33:51] through codependency and the many
[33:53] different behavioral compensations
[33:56] >> relationally. Um, could you, and I know
[34:00] it's a long journey in story, but
[34:03] explain what happened.
[34:06] What's what happened with you and Rehea?
[34:08] >> Uh-huh. Um, so Rehea Elias um was a
[34:14] writer, an artist, a filmmaker, a
[34:16] hairdresser. Um, I met her in the year
[34:20] 2000, which is so long ago now,
[34:23] [laughter]
[34:24] and feels like a different country. like
[34:26] the world feels like a different place
[34:28] than it than it did then. And I was in
[34:30] my first marriage when I met her. Um,
[34:32] somebody sent me to her for a hair
[34:33] intervention. You wouldn't know it now.
[34:35] I've got a buzzed head, but I used to
[34:37] have really difficult hair. And um, now
[34:39] I have really easy hair. And she fixed
[34:42] it and we became at first just
[34:45] hairdresser and client. There's also a
[34:47] weird intimacy in that relationship.
[34:50] >> Um, it's like a confessional booth. like
[34:52] you tell things to the person doing your
[34:54] hair that you might not tell to a it's
[34:57] like a bartender or cab driver like it's
[34:58] a safe person to kind of talk to. So and
[35:01] she was very good at that kind of
[35:02] intimacy. So we became closer over the
[35:05] years and then we became social friends
[35:06] and then we became very good friends and
[35:09] then we became best friends and then we
[35:12] became something
[35:13] there was a transition into something
[35:15] that just now I see it as love mixed
[35:20] with dependency. Um but she became the
[35:24] foremost person in my life. And at that
[35:26] point I was in my second marriage. This
[35:28] is all over the course of like 13 14
[35:30] years. Um and and that became very
[35:34] inconvenient because I loved and still
[35:36] love the man that I was married to very
[35:38] dearly. And but yet Rehea was the person
[35:42] who I relied on for everything. and um
[35:46] and we fell in love with each other for
[35:50] some reasons that were very healthy and
[35:51] some that weren't. Um and I think that's
[35:54] a difficult thing to parse through and
[35:55] you certainly can't know it in the
[35:56] moment. Um I fell in love with her
[36:00] strength. She was formidable and
[36:03] fearless. I mean she really genuinely
[36:06] presented as somebody who was fearless.
[36:08] I can be very frightened of people.
[36:10] people to me are kind of terrifying and
[36:14] understandably so. [laughter]
[36:15] Um, and I always walked into every room
[36:18] feeling like I have to manage I have to
[36:20] like manipulate and manage everybody in
[36:22] the room. And she just walked into the
[36:24] room and owned the room and um, and
[36:26] would say the thing out loud that nobody
[36:28] else had the courage to say and just
[36:30] felt like she could handle people in a
[36:32] way that made her feel like a very safe
[36:34] attachment to me. And when I was around
[36:36] her, I felt a level of safety that I had
[36:39] never experienced in my life and could
[36:40] not generate within myself. And so, of
[36:43] course, I became dependent on her
[36:45] because she was the only person who
[36:46] could bring me the vanilla pudding hum
[36:48] of well-being um just by walking into
[36:50] the room. And she became dependent on me
[36:52] in other ways. There are ways that I'm
[36:54] extremely courageous that she never had
[36:56] courage in. I'm very creatively brave. I
[36:58] will do anything in creativity. I'll
[37:01] write anything. I'll sing anything. I'll
[37:03] create anything. I'll draw anything.
[37:05] I'll put it out in the world. I don't
[37:06] care. And she had a lot of hang-ups
[37:07] around creativity. So, I became kind of
[37:09] her creative like doula. And she became
[37:13] my interpersonal doula. And when we were
[37:15] firing on all cylinders, it was an
[37:18] incredible, beautiful partnership of
[37:20] friendship. But there were secrets in
[37:22] it. We were secretly in love with each
[37:23] other. And nobody was saying that. Um, I
[37:26] didn't want to leave my marriage. She
[37:27] didn't want to blow it up. My husband
[37:30] knew and he didn't want to say anything.
[37:31] Like, there was all this stuff that
[37:33] nobody was talking about. And you know,
[37:35] the universe hates secrets. It just
[37:37] hates them. And eventually they all come
[37:39] out. And so what happened was that she
[37:42] was diagnosed with terminal pancreatic
[37:44] and liver cancer and given 6 months to
[37:46] live. And when that diagnosis arrived,
[37:49] when that day arrived, the bottom fell
[37:52] out of all of our worlds, my husband,
[37:55] her, mine, and it was no longer possible
[37:59] for me to pretend that I didn't love her
[38:02] the way I loved her. And it the idea I
[38:06] had a a sort of vision of her dying and
[38:08] never her never knowing what she was to
[38:10] me and me sitting at her bedside
[38:13] watching her go and never having said I
[38:15] love you and what I meant by I loved
[38:17] you. And that felt so hideous and wrong
[38:21] that I had to speak the secret life into
[38:24] my private life um and then into my
[38:26] public life and say I'm leaving this
[38:28] marriage to be with my best friend um
[38:31] not as her best friend but as her
[38:33] partner for whatever time she has left.
[38:36] And for a little while we had an amazing
[38:39] run of it. Um, you know, we were so in
[38:41] love and we had kept that secret for so
[38:44] long and now we got to be in love
[38:45] publicly and privately with each other.
[38:47] And um, and it was amazing. And also the
[38:51] kind of glamour of death, you know, the
[38:55] fact that we knew we had such a short
[38:56] time together just heightened everything
[38:59] and made everything sexier and more
[39:01] romantic and more wild and more free and
[39:03] all constraint was lost cuz it's like
[39:05] why bother
[39:07] >> holding back on anything if you're only
[39:08] going to be here for 6 months. And
[39:10] >> yeah, most people romanticize if you
[39:11] have it a year left, what would you do?
[39:13] you you got
[39:13] >> we got to have it and we were told we
[39:15] had 6 months and we were like bucket
[39:17] list galore like everything like no
[39:19] limits on anything um including the idea
[39:24] that she had at some point to
[39:25] reintroduce cocaine back into her life
[39:27] as somebody who had been an addict in
[39:30] recovery. And I got to say at the time
[39:32] myself and everyone around her was like
[39:34] why not you know like why not? But God's
[39:38] got jokes. She lived actually for 18
[39:40] months. [laughter]
[39:41] And um it's one thing to go on a little
[39:44] cocaine bender when you think you only
[39:46] have a month to live. It's another thing
[39:47] to become readed to the drug that
[39:49] destroyed you and then not die. And then
[39:52] now you're a hospice patient who's also
[39:53] a drug addict. And um that became where
[39:57] we went to. And she went to descended to
[40:00] the lowest version of herself um which
[40:03] was like a really manipulative, cruel
[40:07] user. And I went to the lowest version
[40:10] of myself, which is um self selfless in
[40:13] the worst possible way. Not selfless in
[40:15] the way of generosity, but selfless in
[40:17] the way of I have no self and I only
[40:19] live to serve you the user in whatever
[40:22] you need and I will let you violate me
[40:23] in any way. Um financially, emotionally,
[40:26] spiritually. Um and I will become a
[40:29] somebody just walking around with a
[40:30] begging bowl hoping that you will give
[40:32] me some affirmation of myself so that I
[40:35] can feel that I exist. And um so we both
[40:38] got to see each other at our absolute
[40:40] most degraded. And um and it was grim.
[40:45] It was really really grim. Um
[40:48] and then she died. [laughter]
[40:51] And then I had to process
[40:53] what was that that just happened? Who
[40:56] was that? Was that the most trustworthy
[40:59] person I ever knew? Who was the person I
[41:00] knew for 17 years to be an anchor in a
[41:03] rock? ever was that was I just played so
[41:06] hard and um and that became the
[41:10] beginning of my recovery.
[41:13] What was it like on the journey from
[41:16] saying
[41:19] let's send it for 6 months to then see
[41:22] the addiction come in and change the
[41:24] person you loved
[41:26] to to an extreme where you don't like
[41:29] you you know you love them but you no
[41:32] longer like the person at certain points
[41:34] and
[41:34] >> and they're about to die and there's
[41:36] that imshment and all all of that. Were
[41:38] you what what happened in that process
[41:41] of how you related and how that changed?
[41:43] >> It was hell. Um, you know, and I think a
[41:46] definition that I would think of as a
[41:49] good definition from h of hell is
[41:52] endless suffering that you can't get out
[41:53] of, you know. I mean, that's what that's
[41:56] people who promise hell to you are
[41:58] promising that, you know, you're there's
[42:00] going to be a place of endless suffering
[42:01] that you can't get out of, which for a
[42:03] lot of people is actually what this
[42:04] realm feels like. Um, and for a lot of
[42:07] my life, that's what this realm has felt
[42:09] like. Um, so we went to hell. Um, and
[42:14] and I I was so
[42:17] trapped. I felt so trapped because I
[42:20] couldn't do an intervention. She's a I
[42:23] couldn't say if you keep doing these
[42:25] drugs, you're going to die. She was
[42:26] already dying. like she had no reason to
[42:29] stop and nobody I mean she was a bull
[42:32] when it came to like she was titanium
[42:35] when it came to being a drug user. I
[42:37] mean she was a lowbottom addict. So like
[42:40] we're talking thousands and thousands
[42:43] and thousands of dollars of cocaine and
[42:45] everything else and all of the
[42:48] manipulations that go along with that.
[42:50] like and how could I say no
[42:54] to funding that when she was saying this
[42:59] is the only thing way that I cannot
[43:01] experience pain. Um which I believe was
[43:05] actually what she was experiencing that
[43:06] it was the only way to not experience
[43:08] pain. Um
[43:12] she was being cruel to me
[43:15] and vicious and dark. She wasn't
[43:19] sleeping. That's the thing cocaine does.
[43:21] So, she was hallucinating. She was still
[43:25] thought she was the baddest ass [ __ ] in
[43:27] the entire world. So, she's like
[43:29] completely helpless and vulnerable and a
[43:30] drug addict, but still like wants to
[43:32] control the world. And I still want that
[43:35] person
[43:37] to complete me. Like that person is
[43:40] supposed to look at me the way she used
[43:43] to say the things she used to say,
[43:45] promise me and assure me, soothe my
[43:48] anxiety,
[43:50] sedate me, make me feel all the things
[43:53] that she used to be able to make me
[43:54] feel. And because of the fact that she
[43:56] couldn't do that anymore, I came to hate
[43:58] her during that time because she was my
[44:01] drug. She was doing her drug, but she
[44:03] was my drug. So when she started doing
[44:06] her drug, my drug was ripped away. And I
[44:08] behaved the way addicts do when you take
[44:10] their drug away. Like I went I like
[44:13] ugly. Like ugly and and cruel and
[44:17] resentful. It I mean it's a nightmare.
[44:19] Codependency is awful. It's just
[44:21] absolutely awful. And I couldn't see any
[44:24] way out. And I've had this experience a
[44:26] number of times in my life where
[44:30] anytime I have ever felt trapped and
[44:33] caged in hell and I've felt that a
[44:36] number of times in my life where I'm
[44:38] like there's no way out. There's no way
[44:39] out. There's no way out. I've I've like
[44:41] gotten myself imshed in something and
[44:43] there's no way out. It turns out there
[44:45] always is and it's always the same way
[44:47] and it's always the last thing I want to
[44:49] do and that is to tell the truth.
[44:51] [laughter]
[44:53] It's always the key out of hell. It's
[44:56] always the key out of hell. It's like
[44:58] there's a truth I'm not telling.
[45:00] And the truth that I wasn't telling was
[45:02] I have I can't do this. Like I can't do
[45:06] this. I don't want to do this. I have to
[45:08] stop. Like I can't be living with this
[45:11] active drug addict. It's killing me. And
[45:14] I did. And I was afraid that if I told
[45:16] that truth that I would die, that she
[45:18] would die that, you know, it was
[45:20] horrible. But I mean, every single time
[45:22] I've ever felt trapped, God's like, "You
[45:23] know what you need to do?"
[45:26] Like, you know what you need to do? You
[45:28] know, there's only one pathway out of
[45:29] hell, and it's honesty.
[45:32] Where are you lying? Where are you
[45:34] hiding? And where are you manipulating?
[45:36] And what are you willing to give up in
[45:38] order to tell that truth and get free?
[45:40] Um, so the truth will set you free. It
[45:42] just has its way with you first.
[45:43] [laughter]
[45:44] And I'm always like, "Not that." It's
[45:46] like it's like Dorothy, you know, in the
[45:49] Wizard of Oz where they're like, "You
[45:50] just have to get the shoes from the
[45:51] witch." It's like, "Not the shoes from
[45:53] the wi, not the broom, you know, like
[45:55] >> not the truth.
[45:56] >> Not the broom." Like, "Not that. Not my
[45:58] biggest nightmare."
[45:59] >> Yeah.
[45:59] >> But that's how it works for some reason
[46:02] in this realm.
[46:03] >> That's how it works.
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[47:07] the show.
[47:10] the way that you describe your
[47:11] increasing amount of awareness into this
[47:16] dichotomy um as you kind of referred to
[47:19] it as a divine crowbar in some some
[47:21] context you know where
[47:23] >> life will continue to repeat these
[47:25] experiences to show you where you're
[47:26] still stuck where you're not free where
[47:28] you're putting outsourcing your love all
[47:29] of those things
[47:31] >> and
[47:32] >> I know it's been an arc even with Eat
[47:34] Pray Love like you had an awareness of
[47:37] this within yourself Yeah.
[47:40] >> And
[47:42] even after selling 25 plus million
[47:44] copies, which is that's a lot of books.
[47:47] That's a lot of books.
[47:48] >> And it was also a lot of money.
[47:50] >> And
[47:51] >> I heard I read that in 2008 you would
[47:54] like go around and just offer
[47:56] shopkeepers and small businesses checks
[47:58] like, "Can I write you a check for can I
[48:01] give you money?" And from the outside in
[48:04] that looks like incredibly generous and
[48:05] I'm sure was wellreceived and really
[48:07] appreciated. But talk to me about that
[48:09] place that bitter aftertaste of giving
[48:12] from a sense of lack or giving from a
[48:14] sense of expectation and
[48:17] >> well yeah [laughter]
[48:19] it's so hard
[48:21] >> cuz like you said it looks like
[48:22] generosity
[48:23] >> and I am generous
[48:25] >> and I like being generous and it feels
[48:27] good to be generous. Um and a lot of
[48:30] times I don't know I had an expectation
[48:32] until that expectation wasn't met.
[48:34] >> Yeah. And and then I find out in the
[48:37] aftermath like, "Oh, I did have an ex. I
[48:39] did have a string attached. I just
[48:41] didn't know I did because I thought it
[48:44] was so obvious. [laughter]
[48:46] I thought it was so obvious that you
[48:48] wouldn't do that thing that you just
[48:49] did, you know, like or that you would
[48:52] take that money that I gave you and you
[48:54] would obviously do this with it, right?
[48:57] Like obviously you would use it to
[48:59] better your life. You would obviously
[49:01] use it to get well. you would obviously
[49:03] spend it on your kids and not on a new
[49:05] car. You would obviously like, you know,
[49:07] like clearly that's what you would do,
[49:09] you know. Um, so
[49:13] the resentment is the bitter taste, the
[49:17] bitter aftertaste. So, I can tell when
[49:21] I'm in resentment that I've overgiven.
[49:24] That I said yes when I meant no
[49:27] or that there's an expectation that I'm
[49:30] hiding from myself about
[49:33] what I'm supposed to get in return for
[49:35] what I gave. And typically, I mean, I
[49:37] could for me it's just I'm a love
[49:39] addict, so it's like you're supposed to
[49:40] love me. It was actually really funny
[49:42] when I was on that bender giving money
[49:44] away like crazy in 2008 because that's
[49:46] when all the big checks came from Eight
[49:47] Pray Love and it like blew my circuitry.
[49:50] I never expected to have that kind of
[49:52] money and I didn't know what to do with
[49:53] it. I didn't think I was worthy of it
[49:54] and it seemed like a great idea to just
[49:56] give it to everybody. So, I just gave it
[49:58] to everybody and some of those people it
[50:00] really did help and and some of those
[50:02] stories were really good and some of
[50:04] those people it just enabled and a lot
[50:08] of those relationships it destroyed. Um,
[50:11] and we created dependency modes where
[50:13] then they came back for more and more
[50:14] and more and more and more and then I
[50:16] had to cut them off and now they hate me
[50:18] and I hate them. Like there was all
[50:19] sorts of stuff. Not not every case. Um,
[50:22] but
[50:24] it it's shown light in in dysfunction in
[50:26] various different ways. Um, but there
[50:30] was a woman in my town who owned a
[50:31] coffee shop and I heard that she had um
[50:35] started her coffee shop on credit card
[50:36] debt and and I was like, "Oh, no. That's
[50:39] terrible. Let me go pay off her credit
[50:42] cards and then she can just pay me off
[50:45] with no interest because she's like
[50:47] taking out basically loans at 23% to
[50:50] open up a coffee shop. That's crazy."
[50:52] And she's a single person and like I
[50:54] don't like that for her. And so I went
[50:56] to her. I mean, I barely even knew her.
[50:58] I went to her and talked to her and I'm
[50:59] like, I'd like to give you, you know,
[51:01] $20,000 to to help you pay off your
[51:04] credit cards and you can starting next
[51:05] year, let's take a year off and then you
[51:07] can just pay me back on a schedule and
[51:09] no interest and it'll save you a lot of
[51:11] money and it'll feel good for me cuz I
[51:13] don't like knowing that you're, you
[51:14] know, in this situation. And she was
[51:16] like, "Okay, thanks."
[51:20] And I didn't get the payoff of her like,
[51:22] "Oh my god, you saved my life. Oh my
[51:25] god, you're amaz. She just said, "Okay,
[51:27] thanks."
[51:28] >> And I'm like, "Okay,
[51:29] >> that's kind of wild."
[51:30] >> And I like, she was so incredible. And I
[51:32] wrote her a check for $20,000 and gave
[51:34] it to her. She's like, "Thank you. I
[51:35] appreciate that."
[51:36] >> And I walked out with no payoff. Like, I
[51:39] didn't get high off being the the one
[51:42] who was the savior, right? Like, so I
[51:44] walked away. I'm like, "That feels
[51:45] weird, and I don't know why that feels
[51:46] weird." Then she very steadily paid paid
[51:49] me back. And then um like no drama, no
[51:54] anything. And then after a couple years,
[51:55] I had enough people who owed me money
[51:56] that I hated the feeling. So I went
[51:58] around town. I just said, "Forget about
[51:59] all those loans I gave you guys. Just
[52:01] just like don't pay me back. Just keep
[52:02] it. Like we're good." And then I went to
[52:05] her shop and I'm like, "Forget about
[52:06] that loan. Just like you can keep it.
[52:08] It's no big deal. Don't worry about it."
[52:10] And she's like, "Okay, thanks."
[52:12] And once again, I didn't get that. She
[52:14] didn't, you know, and then I like
[52:15] ordered a coffee and she's like, "That's
[52:17] 350." And I was like, "You're
[52:20] incredible. [laughter]
[52:22] like you are not you will not give me
[52:26] anything like you are not working for me
[52:28] energetically you know what I mean like
[52:30] you just are in your own vibe and like
[52:34] >> and that's when I saw how much I was
[52:36] relying on the reaction
[52:39] >> that people gave me of being a savior to
[52:42] get a sense of heightened meaning and
[52:44] that's why now I'm very I have to be
[52:46] really really really careful like to
[52:48] still give but to Like I have to I think
[52:51] it's healthier for me to give in boring
[52:53] ways like to give to an organization
[52:55] >> where they're like send me a form
[52:57] letter. Yeah.
[52:58] >> They're like thanks for helping out, you
[52:59] know, rather than me getting fond over
[53:01] which is a way of feeding my the vacancy
[53:04] within me.
[53:05] >> Um yeah, I don't get the payoff anymore.
[53:08] >> So do you still want to give even if you
[53:10] don't get the payoff or did you just
[53:12] want the payoff? [laughter]
[53:15] >> You know, it's like how how honest are
[53:17] you being here about what you're
[53:18] expecting to get out of this? M
[53:19] >> she didn't even give me a hug.
[53:21] [laughter]
[53:22] >> Give her $20,000. But I I still think of
[53:25] her as this kind of saint in my life cuz
[53:27] she just showed up to reflect back to me
[53:30] like this is what you think you need and
[53:32] this is what I'm not going to give you.
[53:34] >> Yeah.
[53:34] >> Do you still want to give me anything?
[53:37] And was like, well, this is a very
[53:39] interesting exchange.
[53:40] >> Yeah. [laughter] No, that's wild for
[53:42] many reasons. Um
[53:44] >> yeah, she was a great a great master.
[53:48] I love that you have that perspective
[53:50] and and and it was a big mirror, right?
[53:52] So, what that vacancy that you
[53:55] described?
[53:56] >> Yeah.
[53:56] >> What is it specifically about being
[53:58] Lizzy that
[54:01] you felt like in this Earth school you
[54:04] needed to learn a lesson around? Why do
[54:07] I'm sure you spent time
[54:09] >> thinking about this like
[54:11] >> what is it specifically about your
[54:13] wiring or your makeup that you needed to
[54:15] learn lessons in this particular way if
[54:18] that makes sense?
[54:18] >> Yeah. I think I I showed up for this
[54:21] round of curriculum to do a deep
[54:24] investigation into where love comes from
[54:27] and um
[54:30] where it's dangerous to seek it and what
[54:34] it is and what it isn't. And these are
[54:37] not easy lessons. And I don't know
[54:39] whether it's karma or genetics or
[54:44] childhood trauma or some mysterious
[54:47] combination of all of them. But my thing
[54:49] has always been there is not enough love
[54:51] for me in this world. This is a this is
[54:53] a this was a loveless place. I and the
[54:57] feeling I also always felt like I came
[54:59] from a place where there was infinite
[55:00] love and this is [ __ ] up here. like
[55:05] this isn't there's a real shortage of it
[55:07] here and and I got to go get whatever
[55:11] there is of it by any means necessary
[55:14] and and as much of it as I can get is
[55:17] still never going to be enough and
[55:19] that's the addict brain like there's not
[55:21] enough there wasn't enough cocaine in
[55:22] the world for Rhea there wasn't enough
[55:24] love in the world for me um and
[55:28] and I know that because I've been loved
[55:31] um and I've been loved
[55:34] unconditionally. There have been people
[55:36] in my life who have loved me a great
[55:38] deal and it does not fill that vacancy.
[55:42] It's not enough. It's not enough. So
[55:47] where do I get it? Like where do I get
[55:50] it if I can't extract it from others?
[55:54] And also even people who have loved me
[55:56] and who have loved me well and deeply
[55:59] and and tenderly like sometimes they
[56:02] have to like get up and make a sandwich,
[56:04] you know, like sometimes they have to go
[56:05] to work. It cannot be their full-time
[56:07] job. Even somebody who might say that
[56:09] they would want it to be their full-time
[56:11] job. And I would be very suspicious now
[56:13] of anybody who said that they wanted
[56:15] their full-time job to be to love me.
[56:17] That's a person who's not well. Um, but
[56:23] they can't. Even if they want to, they
[56:26] can't. And
[56:29] when I came into the rooms of recovery
[56:31] and was told that the program that I was
[56:35] in for sex and love addiction that that
[56:37] the solution is that you must love
[56:40] yourself. I was so pissed off. I was
[56:42] like, I don't I don't want that to be
[56:45] the answer, you know? like I want you to
[56:47] teach me how to be better at getting
[56:49] love from other people. [laughter]
[56:51] I don't want the answer. Why does the
[56:53] answer always have to be that you have
[56:55] to source it from within? And as
[56:56] somebody who grew up in a household
[56:58] where
[57:00] and I think my mother would not mind me
[57:02] sharing this cuz I think she believes to
[57:05] this day that this was the way to parent
[57:07] and is proud of it, but like you're on
[57:10] your own was kind of her parenting
[57:11] motto. um like to have been told as a
[57:15] very early child like you're on your own
[57:18] like you figure it out and then to be
[57:22] told as a suffering adult
[57:25] you're on your own you figure it out and
[57:27] it's of course not true that I am on my
[57:29] own like
[57:31] I have resources in people who want to
[57:34] help me and I have resources in a god
[57:38] that is actually the unblinking eye of
[57:40] that love And but I didn't want that to
[57:44] be the answer either, you know? I'm
[57:46] like, don't have it just be God.
[57:48] [laughter]
[57:49] I don't want to be loved just by God and
[57:51] just by me, you know. And there were
[57:53] nights when I was going through
[57:54] withdrawal and sex and love addiction
[57:55] where like this part of me was like
[57:57] kicking
[57:59] just kicking and being like, you have
[58:01] got to get somebody here. Like you know
[58:04] how to do this. Like go out there, get
[58:07] somebody, and bring them here. There are
[58:10] not enough people in this bed.
[58:12] [laughter]
[58:12] There's only one person. This is not
[58:14] enough. It's three o'clock in the
[58:15] morning. This is not okay. Like it I I
[58:19] don't care who it is. And my history has
[58:21] shown that I don't often care who it is.
[58:23] I don't care who it is.
[58:25] A body, another human being, somebody,
[58:28] anybody now here. And for most of my
[58:32] life, I've I've obeyed that command, you
[58:36] know, and then have had to pay the
[58:37] consequences of like, now what are you
[58:39] going to do with and about this person
[58:41] who's here? Um, who you might not even
[58:44] like, who might not even like you. Now,
[58:46] what are you guys going to do? You've
[58:48] done this thing. And
[58:52] those withdrawals
[58:54] in early recovery were a time where I
[58:57] had to learn how to just be deeply
[58:59] present to
[59:02] that suffering, screaming. I call it the
[59:05] Siberian baby. It's like a baby on the
[59:07] tundra of Siberia just wailing into a
[59:10] into a snowstorm and nobody's coming.
[59:14] And it's like and that baby would say to
[59:16] me like, "You're not enough. like you
[59:19] are not enough to comfort me. It has to
[59:20] come from another person. And I don't
[59:23] even want to hear about God. Like that's
[59:25] not even a thing, you know? And I would
[59:27] just have to learn to like sit and rock
[59:30] with that child and just say like I am
[59:33] aware that I am not enough and I am
[59:36] aware that you don't believe in God, but
[59:37] we're the only ones here and we have
[59:41] actually got you. We have actually got
[59:43] you. And we're gonna sit with you
[59:45] through this night and tomorrow night,
[59:47] too, and the next night and for however
[59:48] long this lasts. And you don't have to
[59:51] get well for us to love you. You don't
[59:53] have to do anything better, anything
[59:54] different. We see you. We love you.
[59:56] We're here. And it's like, [ __ ] you.
[59:59] [laughter]
[1:00:01] >> Bring somebody else. And I'm like, I am
[1:00:03] aware I'm inadequate and yet I love you
[1:00:06] >> and I am here
[1:00:07] >> and I am with you and apparently we're
[1:00:09] supposed to be together cuz here we are.
[1:00:11] And um and and that's how that void
[1:00:14] started to be filled and that that
[1:00:16] creature that like Gollum inside of me
[1:00:20] started to trust
[1:00:23] that I was going to always be there and
[1:00:25] that God was going to always be there.
[1:00:27] And I'm a much safer person for myself
[1:00:30] and for everybody around me when I
[1:00:32] provide that
[1:00:34] >> because if I don't provide that,
[1:00:35] Gollum's going to make me go find it.
[1:00:38] And that's not going to go well for
[1:00:40] anybody.
[1:00:42] A I love the Gollum.
[1:00:44] >> I know. Poor thing. [snorts]
[1:00:47] >> Do you see Do you see the the Gollum as
[1:00:49] like Lizzy as like your inner child? How
[1:00:51] do you kind of actually contextualize it
[1:00:53] when connecting to it?
[1:00:55] >> I think it's Lizzy, but Lizzy, the inner
[1:00:59] child at the time of my childhood was
[1:01:02] innocent.
[1:01:04] And addiction is when that innocent
[1:01:09] child filled with unmet needs
[1:01:11] metastasizes into something that can be
[1:01:14] actually monstrous.
[1:01:17] And so I have a lot of love and sympathy
[1:01:20] for her, but also unchecked
[1:01:23] and allowed to govern and allowed to
[1:01:25] call the shots. Um,
[1:01:29] she is a really dangerous person for for
[1:01:33] me and for all.
[1:01:36] Nobody is safe if that person if that
[1:01:38] being is in charge. And that doesn't
[1:01:40] mean that that being
[1:01:42] should be starved of love. In fact, must
[1:01:44] be loved and can be loved. Um, but
[1:01:50] it's,
[1:01:52] you know, we all start with this
[1:01:54] beautiful innocence and these beautiful
[1:01:55] unmet needs, but they can make us into
[1:01:58] into really dangerous people who hurt
[1:02:01] people. And that hurt is real. And that
[1:02:05] amends process that that we go through
[1:02:08] in recovery is where you look at the un
[1:02:12] like the unclouded mirror and you're
[1:02:14] like, "Holy [ __ ] look what I do.
[1:02:17] Like look what I do when I'm in in that
[1:02:20] state and look at the wreckage that that
[1:02:22] causes
[1:02:24] in so many ways.
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[1:03:29] I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.
[1:03:31] Back to the show.
[1:03:34] In recover, some recovery circles, I
[1:03:35] think they say, you can never get enough
[1:03:37] of something that almost works,
[1:03:39] [laughter] right? How have I been in
[1:03:41] recovery for seven years and never heard
[1:03:43] that? Oh, that is so good. You can never
[1:03:47] get enough of something that almost
[1:03:48] works. Please remind me to write that
[1:03:50] down before I leave.
[1:03:52] >> Only if this was recorded. Yeah.
[1:03:54] >> Um, got you. [laughter]
[1:03:56] >> Wait, you're recording this
[1:03:58] >> camera?
[1:03:59] >> They do just my mic and leave.
[1:04:02] [laughter]
[1:04:04] >> I didn't agree to be recorded.
[1:04:07] I thought we were just talking with your
[1:04:09] friends with a lot of electronic
[1:04:10] equipment around
[1:04:12] [clears throat and laughter]
[1:04:13] >> what
[1:04:16] I'm glad I hope it does feel that way.
[1:04:18] They kind of do dissolve after a certain
[1:04:19] moment.
[1:04:20] >> Yeah.
[1:04:20] >> into the conversation. But um it's uh
[1:04:25] it's interesting because it's almost it
[1:04:27] is more obvious when you have an
[1:04:29] external object or drug that you're
[1:04:31] addicted to when it's this like elusive
[1:04:33] inner invisible
[1:04:35] >> dynamic relational thing. Um I think
[1:04:38] it's easy to justify justify our way out
[1:04:41] of her own neurosis or like you know
[1:04:43] >> um
[1:04:44] >> but uh
[1:04:47] from from reading your story and just
[1:04:49] getting to see how it got increasingly
[1:04:51] more clear that there was your part to
[1:04:53] play in the dynamic that was unhealthy
[1:04:55] to say the least.
[1:04:56] >> Um what at what point did you get go
[1:04:58] into recovery?
[1:05:00] >> Uh it was a year and change after Rya
[1:05:04] died. Um it was right before CO 2019.
[1:05:07] >> Okay. Right before CO and then
[1:05:10] >> CO time and you decided to stop seeing
[1:05:13] people like romantically as well after
[1:05:15] that.
[1:05:16] >> Yeah.
[1:05:16] >> Um
[1:05:18] and how are you now? So you're just
[1:05:20] coming out of your sobatical but like
[1:05:22] this has been a long
[1:05:23] >> sevenyear journey.
[1:05:25] >> Yeah. Um, well, I'm, you know, I I
[1:05:30] sometimes like to compare like where I
[1:05:33] was and where I am. And I think one of
[1:05:35] the ways you can kind of I can kind of
[1:05:37] gauge how I am is that
[1:05:41] um what I needed 7 years ago in order to
[1:05:45] be propped up versus what I need now.
[1:05:48] Um, and
[1:05:51] so at the time that I first came into
[1:05:53] recovery, I for instance at that time I
[1:05:57] I've been on and off anti-anxiety and
[1:06:00] anti-depressive medications for my whole
[1:06:02] life. And I leave it to whoever is
[1:06:03] listening to this to know what is best
[1:06:05] for them on that. Um, I'm only speaking
[1:06:07] of my own experience, but at that time I
[1:06:10] was on Zoloft. I had a prescription for
[1:06:13] Xanax running all the time so that if I
[1:06:16] needed an emergency, like if I could not
[1:06:18] manage my anxiety and my emotions and
[1:06:21] needed that, I could have that. Um, I
[1:06:24] had a sleeping pill prescription going
[1:06:26] at all times. It didn't mean that I took
[1:06:28] those pills every night, but I had them
[1:06:30] and I took them most nights. And I had
[1:06:35] um a therapist that I went to twice a
[1:06:38] week and I had a couple's therapist
[1:06:41] basically on retainer [laughter]
[1:06:44] who I had gone to over the years with
[1:06:45] various people and he'd be like, "Hi
[1:06:47] Liz, who who do we have today?" You
[1:06:49] know, like who have you who have you
[1:06:50] dragged into here today who you want me
[1:06:52] to change? Um so that you you can be
[1:06:55] happy, you know, and I'd be like,
[1:06:57] "Please meet, you know, new my res."
[1:06:59] >> My res Yeah, exactly. Um, and I had a
[1:07:03] shaman who I did like, you know, IA and
[1:07:08] and various other journeys with. I I
[1:07:10] like I had a like a staff basically of
[1:07:14] people. Um, and that's not even
[1:07:16] including the the my most recent victim
[1:07:18] who I had who I had hauled in as my
[1:07:22] lover partner. Um, you know, like you're
[1:07:25] responsible for for making everything
[1:07:28] okay person. Um, and I don't have any of
[1:07:32] that now. Um, and I just like I'm just
[1:07:37] hanging out. [laughter] Like I wake up I
[1:07:41] wake up and I have a day, you know, and
[1:07:44] I'm not on any um Oh, and I was
[1:07:49] drinking. I forgot about that. And I was
[1:07:51] drinking. Um, and that's gone. And the
[1:07:55] anti-depressants and the anti-anxiety
[1:07:57] medication is gone. and the sleeping
[1:07:58] pills are gone. And the therapist is
[1:08:01] somebody who I might check in with like
[1:08:03] every few months if I'm like, "Can I get
[1:08:05] a tuneup on this?" Um, the couple's
[1:08:07] therapist is not needed. Um, the shaman
[1:08:10] is gone. The the the plant medicine is
[1:08:13] gone. Um, and what remains is this
[1:08:17] person who's
[1:08:20] able
[1:08:22] using the tools of recovery and the
[1:08:25] guidance of a higher power to to
[1:08:28] navigate herself
[1:08:31] today,
[1:08:32] like just for today, like and who's just
[1:08:35] here seeing what this conversation is
[1:08:38] about. Um, I haven't been in a romantic
[1:08:42] or sexual relationship since I came into
[1:08:43] recovery. That's not what my recovery
[1:08:45] program is about. It's not
[1:08:49] part of sex and love addiction to say
[1:08:51] that you can never have sex and love
[1:08:53] again. Um, I have a lot more love in my
[1:08:56] life than I've ever had, but it's coming
[1:08:59] from a community of people rather than
[1:09:02] from one person, which I think is safer
[1:09:04] for everybody. like one person's not my
[1:09:06] plug, you know, like and um and actually
[1:09:09] in the rooms of recovery that I'm in,
[1:09:11] it's mostly women. And there's a line
[1:09:13] that a woman said once that I think is
[1:09:15] incredible where she said, "Everything I
[1:09:16] ever thought I was supposed to get from
[1:09:18] one man, it turns out I can only get
[1:09:19] from a community of women." So that love
[1:09:22] is kind of dispersed among a bunch of
[1:09:24] people who are all emotionally available
[1:09:26] but who are all also emotionally
[1:09:28] responsible meaning that every one of us
[1:09:31] are taking responsibility for our own
[1:09:33] lives not for each other's lives but
[1:09:34] we're available to help.
[1:09:36] >> Um and I haven't been interested in
[1:09:40] bringing a relationship at that level
[1:09:42] back into my life. And when I check in
[1:09:44] with God to be like, "Do you want me? Do
[1:09:47] you want me out there on these streets?"
[1:09:50] Like dating, God's like, "Lol, no,
[1:09:53] [laughter]
[1:09:55] not you, honey." Like other people I
[1:09:57] might And God's like, "If if I need that
[1:09:58] from you,
[1:09:59] >> yeah,
[1:10:00] >> you'll be alerted and it'll come and it
[1:10:02] will come through two-way prayer and it
[1:10:04] will come from me and I'll tell you how
[1:10:05] to do it. It's not going to be your
[1:10:07] idea,
[1:10:08] >> you know. Um, but for today, no, you're
[1:10:10] great. You're great. Why? like let's not
[1:10:13] this is good [laughter] like you want to
[1:10:15] test and see how crazy you still are you
[1:10:18] know you want to take the ride like you
[1:10:21] can but I wouldn't advise it um in my
[1:10:24] case
[1:10:25] >> so um so that's where I am and it's
[1:10:28] funny cuz a year ago I would have said
[1:10:30] I'm also more creatively productive than
[1:10:32] I've ever been
[1:10:33] >> and that's true cuz I wrote three books
[1:10:35] in the last six years but now suddenly
[1:10:39] I'm questioning whether that's even a
[1:10:41] virtue M
[1:10:42] >> um because I think as things fall away
[1:10:44] that I relied upon to prop myself up to
[1:10:48] make myself feel like I was a special
[1:10:50] person, I think my my creative
[1:10:54] production is part of that. And so,
[1:10:58] um cuz I always had that it's like
[1:11:00] everything else can fall away, but I'm
[1:11:01] still a really good writer and I'm going
[1:11:03] to prove it now by writing a really good
[1:11:04] book.
[1:11:05] >> Maybe I don't need to, you know. Um so
[1:11:09] it's interesting. I I have fewer
[1:11:12] dependencies
[1:11:14] than I've ever had. And I think that's
[1:11:17] probably a measure of my wellness.
[1:11:21] Doing okay today. I
[1:11:23] >> think you're crushing the game.
[1:11:25] >> I don't want to crush the game. I want
[1:11:27] to stay right in the middle of the herd.
[1:11:28] [laughter]
[1:11:29] >> I was I was crushing the game in the
[1:11:32] past. You know what I mean? It's like
[1:11:33] I'm [ __ ] crushing life, you know?
[1:11:36] Like I got a movie made out of like I
[1:11:38] did TED talk. I gotta like crushing the
[1:11:41] game.
[1:11:41] >> The game was crushed. Now you're loving
[1:11:43] it.
[1:11:44] >> It crushed me. [laughter]
[1:11:47] >> I thought I was crushing the game, but I
[1:11:49] think it did crush me.
[1:11:51] >> Well, okay. So, I want to zoom in on the
[1:11:53] evolution then of your creativity.
[1:11:58] So many people have come into your world
[1:11:59] and into your work because they feel
[1:12:01] like and they can probably relate to the
[1:12:04] quote that I've heard you share also
[1:12:05] from the Gospel of Thomas. You know, if
[1:12:07] you bring forth what's within you, what
[1:12:09] you bring forth will save you. If you
[1:12:11] don't bring forth what's within you,
[1:12:12] what you don't bring forth will destroy
[1:12:14] you. And
[1:12:17] we all have this creative
[1:12:20] aspect of self as we are a creative
[1:12:23] being. To varying degrees, we've allowed
[1:12:25] that to give room and to give space. And
[1:12:27] you've been such a guiding light for so
[1:12:28] many people to give permission. Not that
[1:12:30] it's necessarily yours to give, but to
[1:12:32] invite that reminder. and all the many
[1:12:35] different things we'll navigate on on
[1:12:37] the way there. So, how
[1:12:40] do you define creative living now?
[1:12:41] Perhaps how you did differently 20 years
[1:12:43] ago.
[1:12:46] >> Oh, that's such a good question. I was
[1:12:48] about to just spew out what I always
[1:12:50] spew out, but let me actually answer.
[1:12:53] Let me actually let me actually think
[1:12:56] about that.
[1:12:58] Um,
[1:13:00] wow. what's arising is you don't have to
[1:13:03] do this. Um, and I think 20 years ago
[1:13:06] I'd have been like you have to do this.
[1:13:08] [laughter]
[1:13:08] I think I had a I think I had a um I
[1:13:11] used to say why do I care so much about
[1:13:13] whether people are creating or not. I
[1:13:15] used to be a little bit overinvested I
[1:13:17] think in whether other people were were
[1:13:21] creating and doing the thing that was
[1:13:24] within them. Um,
[1:13:27] I think I took it personally if people
[1:13:29] weren't, you know, I was like, I want
[1:13:31] you to have this experience.
[1:13:33] I don't want you to come all this way
[1:13:34] and not have this experience. You got to
[1:13:36] make something, whatever it is. Um,
[1:13:38] maybe maybe you don't, you know. Um, but
[1:13:41] you can if you want to and you're
[1:13:44] allowed to if you want to. And it
[1:13:48] doesn't have to.
[1:13:52] It doesn't have to it doesn't have to
[1:13:55] then
[1:13:57] turn into something huge. Um, and that's
[1:14:01] good to know because it might not, you
[1:14:05] know. Um,
[1:14:07] you can't make people want the thing you
[1:14:09] made.
[1:14:11] You just can't like no matter how well
[1:14:13] marketed it is. And I am here to attest
[1:14:15] that that is true because I have never
[1:14:17] been able to replicate Eat Pray Love.
[1:14:19] [laughter] So, you cannot make Eat Pray
[1:14:21] Love happen twice like you you can't
[1:14:24] maybe can't even make it happen once,
[1:14:26] right? Um, so but
[1:14:29] you get to play
[1:14:32] with the materials and the inspiration
[1:14:34] of the world. You get to and um and that
[1:14:39] can look like
[1:14:41] anything. It can look it can look very
[1:14:44] very very very small and it can look
[1:14:47] very very very big but nobody is
[1:14:50] excluded from that invitation. I think
[1:14:52] that's how I would say it now. whereas I
[1:14:55] think 20 years ago I might have been
[1:14:56] like if you don't do this it's going to
[1:14:58] kill you. You've got to do this. And I'm
[1:15:00] not sure that I know that to be true.
[1:15:02] Um, and I do know that my beloved friend
[1:15:06] Martha Beck recently wrote a book called
[1:15:09] Beyond Anxiety
[1:15:11] and and she did a lot of research on
[1:15:16] um
[1:15:17] neuroscience with this and what is being
[1:15:20] shown and was able to determine that the
[1:15:23] opposite of anxiety is not calm. The
[1:15:26] opposite of anxiety is creativity. So,
[1:15:30] when you're anxious and you're trying to
[1:15:31] calm down and it never works,
[1:15:34] doing even the slightest tiniest
[1:15:37] creative thing, baking something, um,
[1:15:40] coloring a coloring book, um,
[1:15:45] singing, dance, moving your body in some
[1:15:47] interesting way, like reduces anxiety.
[1:15:50] And it turns out that fear and
[1:15:52] creativity are operating from different
[1:15:55] parts of the brain. I'm doing theater
[1:15:57] right now acting like I know what I'm
[1:15:58] talking about, but this is what I've
[1:15:59] been told. Um, but apparently from what
[1:16:02] I've been told, fear and creativity are
[1:16:04] are a toggle switch. So, when the
[1:16:07] creativity toggle is operating, the fear
[1:16:09] isn't. And when the fear one is up, the
[1:16:12] creativity isn't. And so, it's a little
[1:16:15] bit of a seessaw. So, it does appear
[1:16:17] that it's very good for you um to to
[1:16:22] create, but I'm not sure that I would
[1:16:24] now say that everybody has to do it.
[1:16:27] >> But I would still say everybody gets to
[1:16:28] do it.
[1:16:30] >> What's something in your life that would
[1:16:33] may be otherwise a small mundane act in
[1:16:35] your day that you've transformed into a
[1:16:37] little bit of creativity?
[1:16:38] >> I make these little collages now. So, I
[1:16:40] sit in a lot of um a lot of my 12step
[1:16:42] meetings are on Zoom cuz a lot of 12step
[1:16:45] recovery went on Zoom during the
[1:16:46] pandemic and I travel so much that I
[1:16:48] love these Zoom meetings cuz I can get
[1:16:50] to them. Um but I
[1:16:53] I am not I really like making art and I
[1:16:57] don't know how to draw and I have a
[1:16:59] really like even if you see now I I I
[1:17:01] like vibrate [laughter]
[1:17:03] >> and it's I've always vibrated like a
[1:17:06] hummingbird.
[1:17:06] >> I'm a little hummingbird. Exactly. So,
[1:17:08] I'm like a little shaky. So, I have a
[1:17:10] shaky hand. I have terrible handwriting
[1:17:12] and I have a terrible line for drawing.
[1:17:15] Um, so I'm not precise and and but I
[1:17:19] have I actually do have like an artistic
[1:17:22] eye for what is pleasing. Um, and and I
[1:17:27] like to put things together in a way
[1:17:29] that's pleasing. So, I make these
[1:17:30] collages. So, I go to like HomeGoods and
[1:17:33] to thrift shops and I buy um really
[1:17:37] cheap frames or I buy really, you know,
[1:17:41] like cheap mass-produced art that they
[1:17:43] sell at like Marshalls [laughter]
[1:17:45] >> for for like if you you're decorating an
[1:17:48] Airbnb and you need just need some like
[1:17:50] generic art. So, I'll buy those and um
[1:17:52] or I'll go to thrift shops and buy art
[1:17:54] and then I'll modify and do stuff to it
[1:17:56] and embroider in it and like um like
[1:17:59] paste things in it and make and they're
[1:18:01] really pretty. They're really really
[1:18:03] pretty and my higher power Notorious God
[1:18:07] >> has told me that I'm not allowed to sell
[1:18:10] them. Um and I make them a lot like I'm
[1:18:12] not that God's like you have to have
[1:18:14] something
[1:18:15] >> in your life that's a creative output
[1:18:17] that is not associated with the
[1:18:18] marketplace. Do you even share them?
[1:18:20] >> I give them away.
[1:18:21] >> Okay. But like do you post them or like
[1:18:23] >> uh I put pictures of them sometimes on
[1:18:25] Substack, but I um
[1:18:27] >> but I as an illustration for like my
[1:18:30] Substack newsletter, but I'm not I'm not
[1:18:32] supposed to sell them. So uh that's
[1:18:34] assuming somebody would want to buy
[1:18:35] them, but like I could see myself going
[1:18:37] down a thing where I'm just like I make
[1:18:40] art now, you know, like and I'm having a
[1:18:42] display like I'm not I can't. So So I
[1:18:44] give them to people. So, like my
[1:18:46] favorite waitress at the diner that I go
[1:18:47] to when I'm home visiting my parents,
[1:18:49] like I noticed that she had this
[1:18:50] beautiful fern tattoo and so I made one
[1:18:53] for her that was like um you know, I
[1:18:56] wrapped it up and brought it to her and
[1:18:57] I'm like, I made this for you. And um I
[1:18:59] got inspired cuz there's a little girl
[1:19:01] in that town and in that diner that I go
[1:19:03] to, the walls are covered with her art.
[1:19:06] She's 6 years old and her mom told me
[1:19:07] that one day she woke up and said, "I
[1:19:09] just want to make art for all the people
[1:19:10] I like in town." And so she draws art
[1:19:13] and then they go to the bank and she
[1:19:14] gets one to the bank teller and she
[1:19:16] gives one to the
[1:19:17] >> person at the post office and I was like
[1:19:19] I 100% want to do that. Like I 100% want
[1:19:22] to make like little pieces of art and
[1:19:24] walk around town and give them to
[1:19:25] people. [laughter]
[1:19:27] And so that's what I do. Um so that's my
[1:19:29] that's been my creative output and I
[1:19:31] have nothing left to show for it because
[1:19:33] I've given them all away. [laughter]
[1:19:35] >> So and they're pretty they're really
[1:19:36] really really pretty. I I I and they
[1:19:39] seem to make people happy. I see these.
[1:19:41] >> Um, I'll show you some pictures of them
[1:19:43] later. Be nice.
[1:19:44] >> Yeah,
[1:19:47] >> I know you've spoken at length and a lot
[1:19:49] of us can relate when we put so much
[1:19:51] pressure on our creative passions to
[1:19:54] become profit. It can like pervert it or
[1:19:56] put so much pressure on it that distorts
[1:19:57] it into being something. And so, it's a
[1:20:00] it's an interesting thing to navigate.
[1:20:02] But,
[1:20:03] >> we did talk about how we are innately
[1:20:05] creative beings. And I've heard you
[1:20:07] share how we are walking repositories of
[1:20:09] buried treasure,
[1:20:10] >> right?
[1:20:12] >> Can you say more in regards to that?
[1:20:14] Like how much do you feel like there is
[1:20:16] within us that we have yet to give
[1:20:18] expression for?
[1:20:19] >> Oh my god. So much right. I mean I've
[1:20:24] talked about like doing a complete and
[1:20:26] fearless moral inventory in 12step like
[1:20:28] you you know you excavate yourself you
[1:20:30] find a lot in there like you find a lot
[1:20:32] of darkness but you find a lot of light
[1:20:34] too. A complete inventory includes like
[1:20:37] all of your grace and all of your
[1:20:40] kindness and all of your um care and all
[1:20:45] of your humor and all of your weirdness
[1:20:48] and all of your unique beauty. I mean,
[1:20:53] we don't even know what's in here. You
[1:20:55] know what I mean? Like, we're operating
[1:20:57] at such a surface level of it. Like,
[1:21:00] there's so much. There's so much. And
[1:21:03] then there's also a friend of mine just
[1:21:05] shared something with me that I thought
[1:21:06] was so beautiful about ancestral joy. Um
[1:21:11] that she was getting these downloads
[1:21:13] from her female ancestors who had all
[1:21:16] like suffer suffer suffer suffer suffer
[1:21:18] going all the way back to Eve, right?
[1:21:19] Which is like a lot
[1:21:20] >> ancestral trauma.
[1:21:21] >> Yeah. Like ancestral trauma. And like
[1:21:23] her she was doing meditations where her
[1:21:26] ancestors were coming to her and they
[1:21:27] were like we weren't just trauma. You
[1:21:30] know what I mean? Like we were like we
[1:21:32] also had a good time. Like we also loved
[1:21:34] who we loved. We also loved to sing. We
[1:21:37] also loved to dance. We also created. We
[1:21:39] sewed. We knitted. We cooked. We like we
[1:21:41] also loved the sky in the morning. You
[1:21:45] know, we also loved like the warmth of a
[1:21:47] person. We also loved our animals. Like
[1:21:50] there was a lot that we loved and we
[1:21:53] have we because of the trauma had a lot
[1:21:55] of unspent love and a lot of unspent joy
[1:21:59] that we also passed along to you. We
[1:22:01] didn't just pass along our darkness.
[1:22:03] Like if you could spend some of our joy
[1:22:05] that would be great cuz we didn't have a
[1:22:07] lot of opportunities sometimes to spend
[1:22:09] it. If you could spend some of our love
[1:22:11] that we didn't get to express that would
[1:22:12] be really wonderful. And if you could
[1:22:15] spend some of our creativity and
[1:22:16] sometimes I think that creative talent
[1:22:19] is in is some sort of ancestor who was
[1:22:22] like I didn't have the chance like I
[1:22:26] also was a really good musician. I
[1:22:27] didn't have the chance. I didn't have
[1:22:28] the chance. Could you could you do this
[1:22:30] kind of for me too? So there's so much
[1:22:35] delight to be expressed as well.
[1:22:39] >> Yeah. What is it? Less Brown said the
[1:22:41] richest place on the planet is the
[1:22:42] graveyard. like all the buried ideas and
[1:22:45] expressions that never got to come out.
[1:22:48] >> Yeah.
[1:22:49] >> Um and how much is just stored in in
[1:22:52] there genetically,
[1:22:54] >> ancestrally.
[1:22:55] >> Yeah.
[1:22:56] >> And I think one really big
[1:22:57] transformative idea that you shed a lot
[1:22:59] of light on is on the nature of ideas
[1:23:01] themselves as like living entities. Mhm.
[1:23:04] >> First, do you like do you really believe
[1:23:06] that like they are living entities kind
[1:23:09] of in the old Socratic like stoic kind
[1:23:11] of Greek
[1:23:13] >> conception?
[1:23:14] >> Yeah.
[1:23:14] >> Yes.
[1:23:15] >> Um and most creative people that I know
[1:23:18] experienced it that way. Um regardless
[1:23:21] of having grown up in whatever empirical
[1:23:23] culture they grew up in, most people
[1:23:26] when you talk to them about where they
[1:23:28] got their inspiration, it came to them.
[1:23:30] Like they will use the language, it came
[1:23:32] to me. Like then it came to me. Suddenly
[1:23:34] I had this idea. It came to me like even
[1:23:37] people talking about mathematical
[1:23:38] formulas and and scientific ideas are
[1:23:41] like it came you know it came to me. Um
[1:23:44] you might know the story about how Henry
[1:23:46] Ford
[1:23:48] figured out and he was totally right
[1:23:50] that there's this liinal space between
[1:23:51] sleeping and waking when you're very
[1:23:53] very very open. And um and I find when
[1:23:56] I'm working on a book, I write very
[1:23:59] early in the mornings and
[1:24:02] I will wake up and the second I'm like
[1:24:04] in that kind of gray veiled space
[1:24:08] between sleep and awakening, the
[1:24:10] solution is instantly in my mind for the
[1:24:13] narrative problem from the day before.
[1:24:15] Um to the point that I I will keep a
[1:24:17] notebook next to my bed because I'll
[1:24:19] just hear the words. I'll hear the I'm
[1:24:21] like, "Oh, there it is. There it is.
[1:24:22] There it you know, and like I'll write
[1:24:23] it down and then go back to sleep.
[1:24:25] >> Um and and forget and wake up and be
[1:24:28] like, "Ah, somebody gave me this," you
[1:24:30] know, in the middle of the night. And um
[1:24:32] and Henry Ford used to try to game that
[1:24:34] by um he would go to sleep with like he
[1:24:37] would take these little mini naps with
[1:24:38] like ball bearings in his hands and
[1:24:41] there would be metal trays underneath
[1:24:42] him. So he would sit up straight and
[1:24:44] just like go into kind of a meditative
[1:24:45] state and then when he dropped the ball
[1:24:48] bearings they would make a noise that
[1:24:49] would wake him up just enough that he'd
[1:24:51] be in the liinal space that he could
[1:24:52] catch an idea. So he was trancing
[1:24:54] himself in order to try to to to catch
[1:24:57] these ideas. So yeah, I literally feel
[1:25:00] like ideas and inspiration are spirit.
[1:25:04] Um they are external spirit that's
[1:25:07] looking for a human collaborator. And
[1:25:09] there's all kinds of evidence and I've
[1:25:10] had it in my life and every creative
[1:25:12] person I know has had it in their life
[1:25:13] where like an idea hits two people at
[1:25:15] the same time who don't even know each
[1:25:16] other and like there's all sorts of
[1:25:18] magical ways that that gets evidenced.
[1:25:20] Um, but I remember being on NPR when Big
[1:25:23] Magic came out and the very nice NPR
[1:25:26] reporter was kind of trying to save me
[1:25:28] from myself [laughter]
[1:25:30] and was [snorts] saying like, "You talk
[1:25:32] about magic. I know you don't mean
[1:25:34] magic. I know you mean that it feels
[1:25:36] like magic." I'm like, "Bitch, I
[1:25:37] literally mean magic." [laughter]
[1:25:39] Like like no, like like thank you for
[1:25:42] trying to not make me look stupid on
[1:25:43] NPR, but like I'm talking about magic.
[1:25:45] Like I'm talking about magic, which I
[1:25:48] believe in. Um, and I 100% believe that
[1:25:51] it is like coming to me from an external
[1:25:53] source. Yes. [laughter]
[1:25:56] >> And a lot of people that I know who are
[1:25:57] creative experience that way.
[1:26:00] >> Yeah. Likewise. What um cuz you also
[1:26:02] shared how they like it'll ideas will
[1:26:04] find the swiftest conduit to earth.
[1:26:07] What happens when you ignore an idea
[1:26:10] that comes to you? What does that do to
[1:26:13] a person? What happens to the idea?
[1:26:15] >> I I want to be careful cuz I don't want
[1:26:17] to like fill anybody with dread, you
[1:26:19] know, um or with a feeling that like,
[1:26:21] oh, I lost mine,
[1:26:23] >> you know. Um,
[1:26:25] I have a friend who says, "I used to
[1:26:28] think that life was a train that I got
[1:26:32] on the wrong one." You know, I used to
[1:26:35] think I got on the wrong one or I got in
[1:26:37] the wrong seat on the wrong train and
[1:26:39] that other trains were passing me by and
[1:26:41] I was supposed to be on those trains.
[1:26:43] Um, and I and she said, "I used to just
[1:26:45] feel my whole life was just missed
[1:26:47] missed train transfers." And and she's
[1:26:51] like, "I don't feel that way anymore. I
[1:26:52] don't think you can get on the wrong
[1:26:53] train.
[1:26:54] >> And um excuse me. I know that like Romas
[1:26:57] said that he's like you can't you can't
[1:27:00] do this wrong. Like you can't miss your
[1:27:04] life. There's no such thing. You didn't
[1:27:07] make a mistake big enough that you
[1:27:09] missed your life. You you marry the
[1:27:12] wrong person, then you get to go on that
[1:27:14] train. Like you get to go on marry the
[1:27:16] wrong person train and have that
[1:27:18] adventure. And that adventure is going
[1:27:20] to bring you to something that you could
[1:27:22] only get by getting on the married the
[1:27:24] wrong person train. Like
[1:27:27] favorite person that you love dies, you
[1:27:29] you get to go on that train ride and
[1:27:31] that's going to bring you to your
[1:27:33] destiny. Like every single decision you
[1:27:35] make is going to bring you to your
[1:27:37] destin. You can't miss it. You can't
[1:27:38] miss your destiny. Don't worry about it.
[1:27:40] Like take a left, your destiny's there.
[1:27:41] Take a right, your destiny's there.
[1:27:43] Create your destiny's there. Don't
[1:27:44] create your destiny is there. So, I
[1:27:47] don't want to like
[1:27:49] fill anybody with this sense that there
[1:27:50] was this moment that you had this
[1:27:52] opportunity for this this great idea and
[1:27:54] you missed it and so you are now
[1:27:56] terminally [ __ ] [laughter]
[1:27:58] [gasps]
[1:27:58] >> Like that is not what I believe. First
[1:28:00] of all, I think there's more,
[1:28:02] >> you know, I don't think the universe is
[1:28:04] like
[1:28:06] scant on ideas, you know, or like or
[1:28:09] opportunities um or notions or
[1:28:12] inspiration. I think there's plenty. I
[1:28:14] think there's plenty. And I think
[1:28:15] there's still more in you if you want.
[1:28:18] Um, and again, you don't have to. You
[1:28:20] can just hang out and then you can have
[1:28:22] hangout destiny and that's also fine.
[1:28:25] Like I really am at a place where I
[1:28:27] genuinely believing that you can't do
[1:28:29] this wrong.
[1:28:31] >> But the idea will go find someone else,
[1:28:33] [laughter]
[1:28:33] >> right?
[1:28:34] >> Like it 100% will and and like you will
[1:28:36] wake up someday and open the New York
[1:28:37] Times and somebody wrote your book. Like
[1:28:39] I've had that happen to me. Everybody I
[1:28:41] know has had that happen to them at some
[1:28:42] level. So and that's okay. Hey, there's
[1:28:45] another one
[1:28:46] >> and then they get to have that journey,
[1:28:48] >> you know, good for them.
[1:28:50] [laughter]
[1:28:50] >> But there's something when you do, you
[1:28:52] know, catch the butterfly, so to speak,
[1:28:54] or you this this lightning bolt of
[1:28:56] inspiration happens where when you do
[1:29:00] follow it and pull on that thread, you
[1:29:02] surely learn a lot about yourself in
[1:29:04] that process, if that is so the train
[1:29:05] that you hop on, right? That's that's
[1:29:07] that's for you.
[1:29:08] >> Yeah. And um I find the topic of
[1:29:11] multiple discoveries incredibly
[1:29:13] fascinating how that really happens. I
[1:29:14] know Michael Jackson was like interviews
[1:29:16] saying I I stay up late into the hours
[1:29:18] cuz if I don't catch this idea then
[1:29:20] Prince will get it.
[1:29:21] >> I love that. I [laughter]
[1:29:22] 100% love that. I 100% love that.
[1:29:27] >> Um and I think so many of us do feel I I
[1:29:30] love the I love the reminder you gave
[1:29:32] and a lot of us feel
[1:29:33] >> but time out. Look how Michael Jackson
[1:29:34] and Prince both died, right? So that
[1:29:36] urgency might also not be great.
[1:29:41] >> Totally.
[1:29:42] >> Just saying.
[1:29:43] >> No, 100%.
[1:29:45] >> You know,
[1:29:46] >> yeah, I think we we glamorize the
[1:29:48] highlight reel of someone's success
[1:29:50] without the real suffering they endured
[1:29:52] and ended their life with. So
[1:29:53] >> yeah,
[1:29:54] >> totally.
[1:29:55] >> Yeah.
[1:29:55] >> Yeah.
[1:29:56] >> Sorry I interrupted you, but I just had
[1:29:57] to say like maybe we don't want to
[1:30:00] >> go that hard. [laughter]
[1:30:03] >> [snorts]
[1:30:04] >> Um, but I think on most people's
[1:30:06] conception of like what a life
[1:30:08] well-lived is is
[1:30:10] >> both self-realization and
[1:30:11] self-actualization like living your life
[1:30:13] in expression to what you most value and
[1:30:16] the ideas that are correlated with that
[1:30:19] and
[1:30:20] um
[1:30:22] you give this distinction around genius
[1:30:25] >> which I think is
[1:30:27] >> fitting here because
[1:30:29] >> not to say that we all want to become a
[1:30:31] genius But we all would like to discover
[1:30:33] what is our genius or the genius that
[1:30:35] will have us.
[1:30:36] >> Yeah.
[1:30:36] >> So what do you think is what happens
[1:30:38] after a life of following these ideas
[1:30:40] and letting them take you so to speak
[1:30:42] what can come up?
[1:30:43] >> I'll give you an example like a lot of
[1:30:44] times what I see cuz I do a lot of
[1:30:47] events and people have questions and
[1:30:48] there are certain questions that come up
[1:30:50] again and again and that's how I know
[1:30:51] that it's in the collective zeitgeist.
[1:30:54] It's our shared anxiety like and one of
[1:30:56] the questions that people have is like I
[1:30:59] have this idea
[1:31:02] And there's almost like a energy cost
[1:31:05] benefit analysis that they're doing on
[1:31:06] it, which is like I want to write I I'll
[1:31:09] just use book because that's what people
[1:31:11] come to me a lot with. I want to write a
[1:31:12] book, but it's going to take a huge
[1:31:16] amount of energy and it may end up being
[1:31:19] nothing. Like how why
[1:31:23] [laughter]
[1:31:24] and why should I do that? Um,
[1:31:28] going back to the thing we shared at the
[1:31:30] beginning of this conversation of God
[1:31:31] saying to me, "Will you come with me
[1:31:32] even if I make no assurances?" Every one
[1:31:35] of my books has also said that in a way
[1:31:37] like, "Will you come with me even if I
[1:31:39] make no assurances?" And and it's very
[1:31:43] hard to answer that question in some
[1:31:45] sort of promising way because I don't
[1:31:47] want to ever promise anybody that
[1:31:50] they're going to have any success
[1:31:51] because that's so impossible to promise.
[1:31:55] And I know we all want to think we can
[1:31:57] manifest everything, but I'm not I'm not
[1:31:59] sure that we can control outcome. And so
[1:32:04] what I will say is I can't promise you
[1:32:09] that you're a good writer. I have no
[1:32:10] idea. Like you don't know. I don't know.
[1:32:13] Who knows? Um I've also seen books
[1:32:16] written. I'm thinking of two
[1:32:18] particularly in my mind that people that
[1:32:20] I know have written books that I thought
[1:32:21] were freaking great that never got
[1:32:24] published.
[1:32:25] And so I can't even promise you that if
[1:32:27] your book is great that it and like I
[1:32:28] threw all my weight behind trying to get
[1:32:30] those books published and could not
[1:32:33] could not make it happen. And like it's
[1:32:35] bewildering to me. I'm like these both
[1:32:37] of these books are so much better than
[1:32:39] 90% of the books that are out there. So
[1:32:41] you might be a good writer and you might
[1:32:42] write something that's better than 90%
[1:32:45] of the things out there and it still
[1:32:47] might not be published. It might be
[1:32:49] published and it might not sell. It
[1:32:51] might be published and it might get
[1:32:52] terrible reviews. It might be published
[1:32:54] and you might get cancelled. It might
[1:32:55] get be published and your family may
[1:32:58] never invite you to Thanksgiving dinner
[1:32:59] again because of the things you revealed
[1:33:01] in that book. Um, you might get sued.
[1:33:04] Like I don't know
[1:33:06] any version of a lot of those things
[1:33:07] have happened to me, you know, and like
[1:33:09] have happened to a lot of people that I
[1:33:11] know. So I can't promise you anything
[1:33:13] except for I can absolutely promise you
[1:33:16] that if you sit down and tell that story
[1:33:19] that is within you by the end of that
[1:33:21] you will be a different person than you
[1:33:24] were at the beginning of that
[1:33:25] experience. It 100% you will be altered
[1:33:28] by it. And don't you want to kind of
[1:33:31] know who you become? Like can that be
[1:33:35] enough of a reason to do something?
[1:33:37] Like, don't you kind of want to know who
[1:33:38] you'll be if you actually do that thing?
[1:33:41] And if the answer to that is yes, then
[1:33:43] that that has to be enough. That has to
[1:33:46] be enough because nothing else is
[1:33:48] assured.
[1:33:50] Most people astonished with your work
[1:33:52] have no idea to the degree and neither
[1:33:54] do I of of the dedication and devotion
[1:33:56] and commitment that was required to do
[1:33:59] the work. As Picasso's quoted, you know,
[1:34:01] inspiration exists, but it must find you
[1:34:03] working,
[1:34:03] >> right? So talk to me about the the
[1:34:06] effort that's required to arrive at a
[1:34:08] place of those effortless magical
[1:34:11] moments of insight.
[1:34:13] >> Well, yeah, you got to prepare the field
[1:34:15] for the seed, you know. Um, like
[1:34:20] it's funny. There's something in me
[1:34:22] that's resisting talking about this cuz
[1:34:23] I I'm coming out of sabbatical and my
[1:34:25] whole body just went like I don't want
[1:34:27] to talk about discipline, but I'll talk
[1:34:30] about discipline. Um, for me what it
[1:34:33] looks like for me what it looks like is
[1:34:36] like I become a marine. I become
[1:34:40] a marine. Like I am
[1:34:44] the only way I know how to do it. And it
[1:34:46] doesn't mean that's the only way it
[1:34:48] needs to be done, but this is the only
[1:34:49] way that I've known how to do it. Um,
[1:34:53] it has to be for me, all right, we're
[1:34:57] going to get up at before dawn. We have
[1:34:59] to get up before everybody else. Like
[1:35:00] for me, I I want to be up before the
[1:35:04] world starts annoying me um and knocking
[1:35:08] on my door and demanding my attention.
[1:35:10] So that's early. And most of my books
[1:35:14] are really heavily researched, whether
[1:35:15] they're fiction or non-fiction. Um and
[1:35:19] so there's usually 2 to 3 years of
[1:35:23] research before I even begin. Um, Big
[1:35:26] Magic wasn't like that because I had
[1:35:28] been living researching it um, for so
[1:35:31] long that when I finally decided to sit
[1:35:33] down and write it, I just I'd actually
[1:35:35] collected all of these books about the
[1:35:37] history of creativity. I had like a
[1:35:39] whole wall of books about like
[1:35:40] creativity and creative process and the
[1:35:42] associations of creativity and
[1:35:44] depression and schizophrenia and like
[1:35:45] the neuroscience of creativity. And one
[1:35:47] morning I looked at that and I was like,
[1:35:49] I will jump off a roof if I have to read
[1:35:51] any of these books. I know what I want
[1:35:52] to say about creativity and I'm just
[1:35:54] going to sit down and say it. And that
[1:35:55] became big magic. But most of my books
[1:35:57] are very very heavily researched and
[1:36:00] through this intricate note card system
[1:36:02] that I have um involving like index
[1:36:05] cards and shoe boxes and files. It's
[1:36:07] very autistic um and very like train
[1:36:10] schedulually like it's very nuanced. And
[1:36:12] then um and then when I actually sit
[1:36:15] down to begin writing the book um I
[1:36:19] clear my life away. Like I let everybody
[1:36:22] know you're not going to see me for at
[1:36:24] least 3 months and it's kind of like I'm
[1:36:27] a monk kind of like I'm a marine. Um I
[1:36:30] cancel everything in advance. I like lay
[1:36:33] the groundwork and and I begin. And um
[1:36:37] it's a little bit like swimming the
[1:36:38] English Channel in one breath for me.
[1:36:40] like I I just sit down and I'm like
[1:36:41] we're going to do this until it's done
[1:36:43] and nothing else matters and nothing
[1:36:44] else does matter for me when I'm in that
[1:36:46] state. It costs me a lot physically. Um
[1:36:50] and it costs me a lot of like life that
[1:36:53] I'm not experiencing cuz I'm shutting
[1:36:55] out life. Um
[1:36:58] a lot of invitations that I have to say
[1:37:00] no to, a lot of fun things that other
[1:37:01] people are doing. Um a lot of
[1:37:05] connection.
[1:37:06] But it's the most fun once it starts
[1:37:09] like and and I'm always like why am I
[1:37:11] doing this? Why am I doing this to
[1:37:13] myself? But once it starts it's when I'm
[1:37:16] in the vibe of that there's no it's I
[1:37:21] feel more like myself
[1:37:23] than any other time except probably when
[1:37:25] I'm in prayer. And I think actually for
[1:37:28] me writing was the first experience that
[1:37:31] I had of feeling like an intelligence
[1:37:34] beyond. Something is guiding it.
[1:37:35] Something is moving it. Um my rule when
[1:37:38] I first begin is because it's so hard to
[1:37:41] get into it is I write by the clock, not
[1:37:43] by the word. So, I'll just say you've
[1:37:46] got you have to sit at this chair for 1
[1:37:48] hour and you're not allowed to stand up
[1:37:50] and you're not allowed to look at the
[1:37:51] internet and you just have to be present
[1:37:53] to this project for 1 hour. And at the
[1:37:55] end of the hour when the timer goes off,
[1:37:56] you're allowed to get up and leave and
[1:37:57] that's considered a good hour of work
[1:37:59] regardless of what was created. But then
[1:38:01] once I get going in the zone, um it's
[1:38:05] magic. Like magic starts happening. Time
[1:38:07] drops away. Three hours have passed and
[1:38:10] it feels like two minutes. All the stuff
[1:38:11] that they promised meditation would do.
[1:38:14] like starts to happen like real and like
[1:38:17] I write better than I can you know um
[1:38:19] like at the beginning it's definitely me
[1:38:21] writing but then things happen where I'm
[1:38:22] like that's much better writing than I
[1:38:24] than I can do something else is doing
[1:38:26] this now something else is moving this
[1:38:28] this whole thing and that's extremely
[1:38:30] thrilling
[1:38:31] >> um and very energetically tiring but
[1:38:34] wonderful
[1:38:37] [snorts]
[1:38:37] >> it's the best but I don't want to do it
[1:38:39] for a long time now cuz I'm enjoying not
[1:38:41] being at that level of like vibration at
[1:38:44] that level.
[1:38:45] >> Yeah. I think Theonius Monk said the
[1:38:48] genius is the one most like himself. And
[1:38:51] >> you said you feel like the most like
[1:38:52] yourself when you're in that pocket.
[1:38:54] >> Yeah.
[1:38:54] >> It's your own monk version.
[1:38:56] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[1:38:57] >> Both versions of monk.
[1:38:58] >> Yeah. Lizzy monk. [laughter]
[1:39:01] Um,
[1:39:03] >> and I'm curious, what do you think about
[1:39:05] the
[1:39:08] what it reveals about what we actually
[1:39:10] really loved and were naturally drawn to
[1:39:12] repeatedly as a child and how that's an
[1:39:14] indicator potentially of what will make
[1:39:16] us most come alive as as an adult.
[1:39:18] >> Well, children intuitively do all this
[1:39:20] stuff.
[1:39:21] >> Mhm. you know, um, like
[1:39:24] they dance, they sing, they make up
[1:39:27] stories, they do theater, they draw, um,
[1:39:32] they do all that stuff. They just do
[1:39:34] they just do it. Like, they know to do
[1:39:36] it. They know that it's theirs. They
[1:39:37] know they're allowed to do it. Um, most
[1:39:40] of us can point to an exact moment in
[1:39:43] childhood where that lack of
[1:39:46] self-consciousness was taken away. Um,
[1:39:49] and that's what Bnee Brown calls art
[1:39:51] scars, and everybody has them, where
[1:39:55] somebody told you, the teacher said,
[1:39:56] like, you're not a good singer, so you
[1:39:58] stand in the back and just move your
[1:40:00] mouth during this point. And like for
[1:40:01] some people, that was the last time they
[1:40:02] ever sang, you know, like up until then,
[1:40:05] they didn't know that you had to be a
[1:40:06] good singer to sing. They just sing, you
[1:40:09] know, and then it's like, oh, now I
[1:40:10] don't sing. Um, you're not a good
[1:40:12] dancer. You're you're not a good draw.
[1:40:14] Here's this person in the class is the
[1:40:16] one who's the good artist. And that's
[1:40:17] when the sorting hat starts, you know,
[1:40:20] where it's like this person is talented,
[1:40:22] you're not. This person is a good
[1:40:23] dancer, you're not. This person is a
[1:40:24] good singer, you're not. This one is the
[1:40:26] writer, you are not. And creativity is
[1:40:28] taken from you. And um for some people
[1:40:32] that's the end of the story, you know,
[1:40:35] and we live in a culture that separates
[1:40:37] people out that way where it's like
[1:40:38] these people are creative and these
[1:40:39] people are producers and consumers.
[1:40:42] And if you're not, if you don't get to
[1:40:44] be in the creative class, then you're
[1:40:45] just stuck producer and consumer. And
[1:40:48] but like I've lived in like I've
[1:40:51] traveled and lived in cultures where
[1:40:52] that is not the way. Where there's no
[1:40:54] such thing as somebody who doesn't
[1:40:55] dance. Like when the community gets
[1:40:58] together, everybody dances. When the
[1:41:01] community gets together, everybody
[1:41:02] sings. Like I used to live in Bali next
[1:41:04] to a like one of the community buildings
[1:41:07] where people would come and like have
[1:41:10] these these huge you know orchestras and
[1:41:13] singing and drums and chimes and
[1:41:15] everything and like no one's like oh
[1:41:18] Danny doesn't [laughter]
[1:41:20] like oh Karen doesn't do that because
[1:41:22] she doesn't have good pitch. It's like
[1:41:24] no everybody does that. And there's
[1:41:27] something that's been determined that
[1:41:29] collectively happens when people sing
[1:41:30] together. Their hearts co-regulate,
[1:41:33] their breathing co-regulates. Like, it's
[1:41:35] good for you. Like, all of this stuff is
[1:41:37] really good for you and it's fun. Um,
[1:41:40] and it's meant to be fun. So, to cast
[1:41:43] yourself out of that because somebody in
[1:41:45] fourth grade made a disparaging comment
[1:41:48] about your version of that is really is
[1:41:51] a tragedy. But you can reclaim it
[1:41:55] >> at any time, I believe.
[1:41:57] >> What's the single most useful thing you
[1:42:00] you could someone could do in your
[1:42:02] experience to reclaim it?
[1:42:04] >> A group,
[1:42:06] I think. You know, we have this version
[1:42:08] of the artist as like the great man
[1:42:11] living in the Garrett apartment in
[1:42:13] Paris. And I kind of do that play that
[1:42:16] role when I when I write to a certain
[1:42:18] extent. But I had a long time in my 20s
[1:42:21] where after college, I decided not to go
[1:42:24] to graduate school. I don't have a
[1:42:25] graduate degree in or an MFA in
[1:42:27] anything. I knew it would cost me too
[1:42:28] much. I I didn't have the money and I
[1:42:31] didn't want to go into debt. And somehow
[1:42:32] I had some intuition that it that I'd be
[1:42:34] better off not in a room with a bunch of
[1:42:37] other people trying to find their voice.
[1:42:39] Um but I created a group. Um and for
[1:42:43] reasons that are lost to history, we
[1:42:44] called ourselves the Fat Kids. I cannot
[1:42:46] remember why. [laughter]
[1:42:47] And there were six of us and it was some
[1:42:50] people I went to college with and some
[1:42:51] people that I worked with and knew from
[1:42:52] my bartending and waitressing who wanted
[1:42:54] to write. And we met twice a month for
[1:42:57] like four or five years and we brought
[1:43:02] what we were working on, you know,
[1:43:04] whatever we wanted to write and
[1:43:07] everybody we took turns where it was
[1:43:09] some one person's week and they would
[1:43:10] bring something that they were working
[1:43:11] on. Um, and my first book was pretty
[1:43:15] much written that way because there
[1:43:17] wasn't a lot of other motive to do it.
[1:43:19] Nobody was knocking on my door and
[1:43:21] saying, "We hear we heard there's a good
[1:43:23] unpublished writer living here."
[1:43:24] [laughter]
[1:43:26] So, I had to create like a reason to do
[1:43:29] something. And so, the reason to do
[1:43:30] something were these deadlines that we
[1:43:32] had in the group. And um, and yeah, my
[1:43:36] first novel too was like largely written
[1:43:38] with the help of the fat kids. It's like
[1:43:40] in the acknowledgements of my first
[1:43:42] novel, it's like thanks to the fat kids.
[1:43:44] >> Um, we
[1:43:45] >> out of context.
[1:43:46] >> Yeah. Out of context, just no
[1:43:47] explanation of what that means. Um, so
[1:43:51] even the most private art forms, I mean,
[1:43:54] I think of writing as maybe the most
[1:43:57] >> private. Um, you can still get help from
[1:44:01] other people. You're not supposed to do
[1:44:03] this by yourself.
[1:44:04] >> Um, so if there isn't a group, make one.
[1:44:07] like invite people. I've been doing this
[1:44:10] thing at my house and I share this idea
[1:44:12] with anybody who wants to do it. Um I
[1:44:16] have these days um called quiet art days
[1:44:19] and I I live in an old church so it's a
[1:44:21] very inspirational space anyway. But I
[1:44:24] invite like five or six women over and
[1:44:27] we the rule is this. We we do this
[1:44:30] 30-inut breath meditation and then we do
[1:44:33] 30 minutes of listening to this
[1:44:34] recording of sound bowls. like an hour
[1:44:36] of breath meditation and sound bowls and
[1:44:39] then the next 2 hours nobody's allowed
[1:44:41] to speak and you can go take a place
[1:44:43] anywhere in the house bring anything
[1:44:45] that you're working on the only rules
[1:44:47] are no speaking and nothing electronic
[1:44:49] so no laptops no phones and I lay out
[1:44:53] all sorts of art supplies and you can
[1:44:56] just play with the art supplies you can
[1:44:57] take a nap you can go for a walk you can
[1:45:00] um draw you can paint but you can't talk
[1:45:03] and you can't be on the internet.
[1:45:05] >> Wow.
[1:45:06] >> And um and so we spend essentially 3
[1:45:09] hours in silence. 1 hour of um the
[1:45:12] singing bowls and then 2 hours of the
[1:45:13] creativity and then we break then I like
[1:45:16] >> do a gong and then we eat eat dinner
[1:45:18] together and talk
[1:45:19] >> and um or you can leave. If you're just
[1:45:21] in the vibe and you don't want to break
[1:45:23] it with speech, you can just go.
[1:45:24] >> I want to come.
[1:45:25] >> It's really good. So you can do you
[1:45:28] don't have to wait for somebody to make
[1:45:30] things like that. like you can invite
[1:45:32] people into creative spaces with you and
[1:45:35] it's less lonely and less scary.
[1:45:39] >> I think we're seeing this return to the
[1:45:41] imperfection of the human creative
[1:45:43] pursuit and music and art and everything
[1:45:45] as AI is continuing to grow.
[1:45:48] >> What do you think is the danger of
[1:45:49] letting AI take over your creative
[1:45:52] expression?
[1:45:53] >> It's so tempting, right? cuz it's like
[1:45:56] it's going to get like somebody said
[1:45:58] it's going to be like a year in a year
[1:46:00] or two like AI is going to be able to
[1:46:01] write a novel that's good you know um
[1:46:05] and I'm like I bet it'll be sooner than
[1:46:06] that and and somebody asked me like how
[1:46:10] do you feel about the fact that AI could
[1:46:12] write a better novel than you someday
[1:46:14] and I'm like there's already people who
[1:46:15] can write better novels than me
[1:46:16] [laughter] like that's been that's been
[1:46:19] my reality my entire life like every
[1:46:21] single creative thing that I do there
[1:46:22] are people who do it better you know Um,
[1:46:25] so who I think do it better. So that
[1:46:28] can't be a reason to not create is that
[1:46:30] there's some intelligence that can do it
[1:46:32] better. That already is the case, right?
[1:46:34] So I'm not going to compete with AI if I
[1:46:37] don't compete with Anne Patchet.
[1:46:39] [laughter]
[1:46:40] >> Sure.
[1:46:40] >> Like I can be friendly with AI the same
[1:46:42] way I'm friendly with Anne Patchet. Um,
[1:46:44] so I'm sure it's tempting. Um,
[1:46:48] but I think you'll miss the fun,
[1:46:51] right? I think it's sort of the question
[1:46:54] is like what are you doing this for? Are
[1:46:56] you doing this to be the best at it or
[1:46:58] are you doing this to have the
[1:47:00] experience of it? And so yeah, AI could
[1:47:03] do it for you, but then you don't get to
[1:47:07] go on the ride. You just get to operate
[1:47:09] the robot.
[1:47:11] That doesn't seem as much fun for me.
[1:47:13] [laughter]
[1:47:16] >> No. And yeah, as they're getting more
[1:47:18] and more capable,
[1:47:20] there is something particular with AI
[1:47:23] music that I noticed this like
[1:47:26] uh that just the perfection of the
[1:47:28] voices that that it generates is like
[1:47:30] immediately I can tell it's AI that
[1:47:33] feels devoid of
[1:47:36] we want to be moved by stories that are
[1:47:37] authentic, right? And so if it's like a
[1:47:39] machine generating a thing that sounds
[1:47:41] great, which some of them sound really
[1:47:43] cool and just like books, I'm sure that
[1:47:45] he'll write beautiful.
[1:47:47] >> I don't know. I suppose there's do you
[1:47:49] feel like what makes it magical is that
[1:47:52] it came from somebody who was in a
[1:47:53] process of discovery and it was
[1:47:55] authentic and that or do you do you not
[1:47:57] make it so precious?
[1:47:59] >> I think that is precious.
[1:48:00] >> Yeah. you know, and I think that is
[1:48:02] magical. And um,
[1:48:05] you know, I think AI will get so good
[1:48:07] that it'll make music that doesn't sound
[1:48:09] like AI.
[1:48:10] >> Yeah.
[1:48:10] >> You know, it's only a matter of time,
[1:48:12] you know, um, and it will write I mean
[1:48:15] already some I can't remember who some
[1:48:17] poet did an experiment where they said,
[1:48:20] "Write a poem like me." And then they
[1:48:22] wrote a poem and they put it on the
[1:48:24] internet and said, "Which one do you
[1:48:25] think I wrote?" And most people chose
[1:48:27] the AI one. And it was he was like it's
[1:48:29] better than mine you know like or and
[1:48:31] you were fooled like you thought I wrote
[1:48:33] this.
[1:48:36] So this is gonna really
[1:48:39] put our feet to the fire as to why we
[1:48:41] create.
[1:48:43] You know, like
[1:48:45] I have a friend whose kid is in music
[1:48:48] school at NYU right now and he's like,
[1:48:50] "The only ones who are going to be left
[1:48:53] doing it are the people who just love
[1:48:54] doing it because all the other reasons
[1:48:57] are going to fall away. You're not going
[1:48:59] to be a who knows, you're not going to
[1:49:00] be able to make a living from it anymore
[1:49:02] or the robots will do it better or like
[1:49:05] whatever. There'll be all kinds of all
[1:49:07] of those external sources. Going back to
[1:49:10] our original conversation about seeking
[1:49:13] the external, like all of those external
[1:49:16] forces might just go away. And then
[1:49:18] who's going to be left making something
[1:49:21] with their hands? Somebody who wants to
[1:49:23] make something with their hands. And
[1:49:25] what's going to be the reason to bother
[1:49:27] doing it? The same reason our ancestors
[1:49:29] did it because it's pleasing.
[1:49:33] You know, it's pleasing. I get most of
[1:49:35] the art that's ever been made in the
[1:49:36] entire world was not generated.
[1:49:40] Nobody made any money from it.
[1:49:42] >> Like you made it because it because it
[1:49:44] was pleasing. It was beautiful to make.
[1:49:46] My grandparents were dust farm
[1:49:49] depression era Swedish Lutheran dairy
[1:49:52] farmers. Like the least woo woo fanciful
[1:49:55] people in the entire world. And both of
[1:49:57] my grandparents made beautiful art. Um
[1:50:00] everyone did. They didn't have mass
[1:50:01] media. So what do you do on those long
[1:50:04] cold nights like when all the chores are
[1:50:06] done? You make something with your
[1:50:08] hands. And my grandmother made these
[1:50:10] quilts that are like works of art. Her
[1:50:13] aunts, her descendants have them framed
[1:50:15] on their walls. And my grandfather
[1:50:18] did woodworking that was more beautiful
[1:50:21] than it needed to be for a guy who had
[1:50:23] no sentimentality.
[1:50:25] You know, like why did he bother to make
[1:50:29] something more beautiful than it needed
[1:50:31] to be? because it was pleasing to him.
[1:50:34] And I think in the end, that's what it's
[1:50:37] going to come down to.
[1:50:41] >> I uh No, I I couldn't I couldn't agree
[1:50:43] more. I think we're already seeing it be
[1:50:45] highlighted across the board. And um
[1:50:50] I'm uh I'm curious just to kind of wrap
[1:50:52] a bow and kind of full come full circle
[1:50:55] within this conversation. you started
[1:50:57] sharing more about your two-way prayer
[1:50:59] and that practice that you have. Are you
[1:51:02] doing that every morning still?
[1:51:03] >> Mhm.
[1:51:04] >> And how long does that take usually?
[1:51:08] >> Half an hour, 45 minutes.
[1:51:09] >> And if somebody wanted to do it tomorrow
[1:51:11] morning, what would they do?
[1:51:13] >> Oh, well,
[1:51:15] if you can get on Substack
[1:51:17] >> Yeah.
[1:51:17] >> and go to I have a Substack called
[1:51:19] Letters from Love
[1:51:21] >> and there's instructions there on how to
[1:51:23] do it. And there's a community going
[1:51:24] back to the idea of we can do this in
[1:51:26] community. There's a community of people
[1:51:27] doing it. And you already told me you
[1:51:29] were going to do [laughter]
[1:51:31] >> Yeah.
[1:51:31] >> But I can but I can say,
[1:51:35] you know, I can say where this came to
[1:51:37] me. I now have found out that it's
[1:51:39] called two-way prayer. I didn't know
[1:51:40] that it was called something when I
[1:51:42] started doing it two 20 years ago. Um I
[1:51:45] it came to me in my time of the lowest
[1:51:47] depression I've ever been in my life
[1:51:48] after the end of my first marriage. um
[1:51:52] when I had no tools, I had no
[1:51:53] spirituality. I was just out there
[1:51:56] roughing it, you know. And um one night,
[1:52:00] one sleepless night,
[1:52:03] a voice that I now would call God came
[1:52:05] to me and said, "Just get out of bed and
[1:52:07] get a notebook and write yourself
[1:52:09] everything you've always wanted to hear
[1:52:11] somebody say to you." Cuz I was so
[1:52:12] lonely and I was so heartbroken. And and
[1:52:15] I did it. and that voice and I you know
[1:52:20] you know what you've always wanted to
[1:52:21] hear somebody say to you write that down
[1:52:24] like to yourself and so for me it'll be
[1:52:28] different maybe for other people but
[1:52:30] mine was
[1:52:32] I'm not going anywhere like dear Lizzy
[1:52:36] I'm here with you I am not going
[1:52:38] anywhere I am not leaving
[1:52:42] I'm here and you don't have to do
[1:52:45] anything to earn earn that and you don't
[1:52:48] have to. You can't lose it. You can't
[1:52:51] earn it. You can't earn this love and
[1:52:53] you can't lose this love. This is your
[1:52:55] inheritance and you've always had it.
[1:52:58] And I was with you at the moment of your
[1:53:00] birth. I'll be with you at the moment of
[1:53:01] your death. Everyone can come and go.
[1:53:04] Everybody else can leave. I'm with you.
[1:53:07] I've got you. And you don't have to
[1:53:10] impress me. And you don't have to get
[1:53:14] better. cuz I was in a real depression
[1:53:16] at that point. Like you don't have to
[1:53:17] get well. You can be this [ __ ] up
[1:53:21] forever. You can be this low. You can be
[1:53:23] this depressed. You can be this ashamed.
[1:53:25] You cannot improve.
[1:53:27] And I will I will love you entirely. We
[1:53:30] can live in a box under a bridge yelling
[1:53:32] at people when they walk by. Love you.
[1:53:35] Like I love being with you there. Like
[1:53:38] you are my love and that will not alter.
[1:53:44] and if you need to stay up all night
[1:53:45] tonight cuz you can't sleep, I will sit
[1:53:48] with you and I will just repeat this.
[1:53:50] And that's where it came to me. That's
[1:53:51] where I started doing the practice. And
[1:53:52] then I found out that there's this thing
[1:53:54] called two-way prayer, which is that,
[1:53:56] [laughter]
[1:53:57] you know, one way prayer is like
[1:53:58] beseeching God. Two-way prayer is
[1:54:00] listening. It's like I'm going to ask
[1:54:02] you a question, you give me the answer,
[1:54:04] and I write the answer down. So, you can
[1:54:06] do that. You can just you can just write
[1:54:09] your name. It actually really helps.
[1:54:11] I've learned if you use a nickname, an
[1:54:13] affectionate nickname, it softens your
[1:54:15] heart toward yourself. So God calls me
[1:54:17] Honeyhead and love and um little one and
[1:54:22] Lizzy. Like these are all softening
[1:54:25] nicknames. So you you can use a
[1:54:27] softening nickname and then you just
[1:54:30] write what you wish somebody would tell
[1:54:32] you. You just write what you need to
[1:54:34] hear or you listen to see if you can
[1:54:37] hear what love would want you to know.
[1:54:39] And that's available to everybody. And I
[1:54:41] was telling you before we started the
[1:54:43] interview that one of the things I find
[1:54:45] most amazing now on that Substack
[1:54:46] because there's 200,000 people there now
[1:54:48] doing this is that when people share
[1:54:50] their letters, there are some people on
[1:54:52] there who have never had any experiences
[1:54:53] of being loved. Like people who grew up
[1:54:56] in such extreme abuse and such extreme
[1:54:58] neglect and they have access to this
[1:55:01] voice. So you didn't you didn't have to
[1:55:04] have someone model for you what it looks
[1:55:06] like to love at this level to experience
[1:55:09] love at this level. And that's really
[1:55:10] good news cuz a lot of us never got
[1:55:12] that. So you can have it anyway. And I
[1:55:16] think that's the really magical thing to
[1:55:18] know.
[1:55:21] >> So beautifully said. Could we try a
[1:55:23] little exercise? Maybe like this is a
[1:55:25] two-way prayer in and of itself. Maybe
[1:55:27] I'll ask a question and and you can
[1:55:29] channel the god.
[1:55:31] >> How about you ask and you channel go.
[1:55:34] >> Okay.
[1:55:35] >> Cuz if it'll be my answer and I'd rather
[1:55:38] hear yours.
[1:55:38] >> Yeah. But I want to hear your answer.
[1:55:40] [laughter]
[1:55:41] >> Okay. How about you ask a question and
[1:55:43] we sit for a minute and then see what we
[1:55:45] heard.
[1:55:45] >> Okay. Okay.
[1:55:46] >> Great.
[1:55:48] Um,
[1:55:55] what what comes to mind is a soul that's
[1:55:58] about to incarnate into Earth school.
[1:56:00] What are the instructions?
[1:56:02] >> Oh gosh. [laughter]
[1:56:07] >> It just
[1:56:09] What'd you hear?
[1:56:10] >> You already got something.
[1:56:12] >> I got mine.
[1:56:13] >> Okay. Wait. Let her read.
[1:56:14] >> But I But why don't you ask yours
[1:56:18] >> and maybe keep it specific. What are
[1:56:19] your instructions? Ask it like you came
[1:56:22] here and incarnated to Earth school.
[1:56:24] What are your instructions?
[1:56:25] >> Do you want to say yours and then I'll
[1:56:27] do you want me to think on it first?
[1:56:29] >> I think you should before I say my
[1:56:30] instruction.
[1:56:31] >> Okay.
[1:56:32] >> I already know anyway.
[1:56:33] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[1:56:34] >> Um
[1:56:36] >> what are my instructions? I incarnated
[1:56:37] here.
[1:56:50] Yeah, mine I feel like I got mine.
[1:56:53] >> Mine is stay close.
[1:56:54] >> Stay close to me.
[1:56:56] >> Stay close to this voice.
[1:56:59] >> Mine was love everyone.
[1:57:01] >> Same same. [laughter]
[1:57:03] >> Same same.
[1:57:05] Stay close. Love every
[1:57:06] >> You know what?
[1:57:08] You might be an extrovert and I might be
[1:57:09] an introvert. M
[1:57:10] >> um because I've also heard that like if
[1:57:14] your even though I present very
[1:57:15] extroverted and my answers are always
[1:57:20] about in here.
[1:57:21] >> Yeah.
[1:57:21] >> And yours was out here.
[1:57:24] >> So even if you're like a quiet and
[1:57:26] private person, your your love might be
[1:57:29] this. And um that's an sort of
[1:57:32] extroverted version of that. Love
[1:57:34] everybody. And mine is stay close. It's
[1:57:38] here.
[1:57:39] >> Mhm.
[1:57:40] Yeah. Yeah. No, it also feels like
[1:57:41] that's a bit more intimate. Yours is
[1:57:44] almost an instruction for you in
[1:57:46] relation to God. Mine was almost my
[1:57:48] relationship to the external in a sense.
[1:57:50] So,
[1:57:51] >> basically what you just said.
[1:57:52] >> Yeah. Exactly. But the right answer.
[1:57:54] >> Mhm.
[1:57:55] >> And not hard to find, right?
[1:57:57] >> Yeah. I was I was thinking it was going
[1:57:59] to take a it would be a longer spiel.
[1:58:01] >> I'm telling you, this is [laughter] the
[1:58:02] thing. This is the thing. God's like,
[1:58:04] I'm not a mystery.
[1:58:07] >> [laughter]
[1:58:08] >> I I'm here like what do you want to
[1:58:11] know?
[1:58:12] >> Yeah.
[1:58:12] >> You know, and if your intentions are
[1:58:14] pure and you really want to know, the
[1:58:18] answer will be there.
[1:58:21] >> Yeah. I say it so often that uh like
[1:58:24] when you get quiet, what needs to be
[1:58:26] heard grows loud. Yeah.
[1:58:27] >> And it seems like this practice of yours
[1:58:29] has been getting to that space of quiet
[1:58:32] and seeing what wants to be heard. And I
[1:58:35] could only imagine what would happen on
[1:58:38] the like a civil civilizational level if
[1:58:41] everyone had that as a practice.
[1:58:43] >> I know, right?
[1:58:44] >> And they had that connection and stayed
[1:58:46] close to that that because we feel so
[1:58:49] alone like the loneliness epidemic is so
[1:58:51] real and when you build that
[1:58:53] relationship with something that isn't
[1:58:55] um impermanent, you know, it feels like
[1:58:59] you always have something to to be with
[1:59:01] to lean on.
[1:59:03] I think that there have probably been
[1:59:05] cultures where everybody was that
[1:59:06] connected,
[1:59:07] >> where that was prioritized,
[1:59:10] you know. Um, maybe I'm glamorizing
[1:59:13] cultures I don't know anything about,
[1:59:14] but I feel like
[1:59:16] >> I I feel like that
[1:59:19] had to have been the case, especially
[1:59:20] for cultures that lasted a really,
[1:59:21] really long time. You know, like I've
[1:59:25] been spending a lot of time in
[1:59:26] Connecticut where I grew up, and I never
[1:59:27] thought I would go back there because I
[1:59:28] was like, I got to get out of here. Um,
[1:59:31] but I have found I've come back um 50
[1:59:34] years later, no 40 years later. And um
[1:59:38] been spending a lot of time in the
[1:59:39] Connecticut woods and
[1:59:42] getting very curious about who was here,
[1:59:44] you know, because there were people
[1:59:46] there when my ancestors came from
[1:59:49] England to New England. Um, and those
[1:59:52] people are mostly not there anymore. And
[1:59:55] it's just very moving to find out that
[1:59:59] there were people in those woods for
[2:00:01] 12,000 years. Not like 12,000 years ago,
[2:00:04] but for 12,000 uninterrupted years.
[2:00:08] And the fact that they managed that land
[2:00:11] and themselves well enough that that was
[2:00:14] preserved and taken care of so
[2:00:16] beautifully makes me think that they had
[2:00:18] to have been in some deeper
[2:00:19] communication than we are.
[2:00:21] >> Oh, for sure. I mean, anyone who's gone
[2:00:23] camping for a couple days, let alone
[2:00:25] 12,000 years gener generationally, like
[2:00:28] what does that do to what does that open
[2:00:31] >> exactly? Um,
[2:00:35] so
[2:00:37] yes, I think I think it's but we are
[2:00:40] still human and we do have we are divine
[2:00:43] as well. Um, and we're distracted and
[2:00:47] we're afraid and it's a scary moment.
[2:00:51] Um, and we're divine. And the answers
[2:00:55] are not far away.
[2:00:57] I went to do this five-day darkness
[2:00:59] meditation retreat last year.
[2:01:01] >> Oh, me too.
[2:01:02] >> Um, did you?
[2:01:02] >> I did. Yeah, I did like two years ago.
[2:01:04] Yeah, in Oregon. Sky cave. Yeah.
[2:01:06] >> Oh, nice. [laughter]
[2:01:07] >> Great.
[2:01:09] >> Love that for us.
[2:01:09] >> Okay. So, you know, so you know,
[2:01:12] >> um well, maybe you got had a different
[2:01:14] experience, but what I what I found out
[2:01:17] was there's you can take everything else
[2:01:19] away and that voice of love is still
[2:01:21] there.
[2:01:21] >> Yeah.
[2:01:22] >> It's the only thing left.
[2:01:24] >> Mhm.
[2:01:24] >> And that was such good news. I was like,
[2:01:26] h this is great news. Everything else
[2:01:29] can go and this is still here.
[2:01:34] >> What drew you into that? Cuz I feel like
[2:01:36] that it takes a special kind of person
[2:01:38] to want to go into the void.
[2:01:39] >> I know. My friend Margaret was like,
[2:01:41] "You're such an idiot." She's like,
[2:01:43] "Give me a couple thousand. I'll lock
[2:01:45] you in a closet in the house and give
[2:01:46] you food for the day." [laughter] Like,
[2:01:48] what are you like, "You're such a
[2:01:50] sucker. Why are you doing more complex
[2:01:51] than that?"
[2:01:52] >> I'm like, "There's more to it." They,
[2:01:54] you know, and there is. And I love them
[2:01:56] at Sky. Like, they really do take care
[2:01:57] of you in a way. Um, [snorts] you know,
[2:02:00] it's a I I had a friend who did it and
[2:02:04] talked about doing it and it was a full
[2:02:05] body. Yes. Like there's things
[2:02:06] >> Yeah.
[2:02:07] >> There's things in my life that I hear
[2:02:08] about and I instantly know like, "Oh,
[2:02:10] that's one of the things I came to earth
[2:02:11] to do."
[2:02:12] >> And [clears throat] um she said that she
[2:02:13] had done it and I was like, "Oh, that's
[2:02:14] one of the things I came to earth like
[2:02:16] right forgot that that was on my list
[2:02:18] that you're supposed to do that." You
[2:02:19] know, it was just a full automatic
[2:02:22] absolute yes. Um and yeah, did you enjoy
[2:02:26] it? Enjoy is not really the right word.
[2:02:28] Joy is weird.
[2:02:28] >> Are you glad you did it?
[2:02:30] >> For sure. I I was just intrigued. You
[2:02:32] know, I know a lot of people go in there
[2:02:34] trying to like seek a certain answer
[2:02:35] maybe or I don't know
[2:02:37] >> what, but
[2:02:38] >> I was just like I want to see what
[2:02:40] happens. Just
[2:02:42] >> when your sensory world is pulled out
[2:02:44] from underneath you and then it's just
[2:02:46] you and your consciousness floating in
[2:02:47] the void,
[2:02:48] >> what happens? And what happens to your
[2:02:51] sense of time and space? And um
[2:02:56] I it was powerful in a different way
[2:02:58] than like a meditation or vaposa
[2:03:00] retreat. It has been for me for sure. Um
[2:03:03] but I'm I'm super glad I did it and it
[2:03:06] was very it was like a it was similarly
[2:03:09] like one of those things where it was
[2:03:10] kind of like I want to I want to see
[2:03:12] what's there. I want to peek around the
[2:03:13] corner and see what that and I think it
[2:03:16] it has deepened my relationship to
[2:03:19] the unknown, the void, being uncertain,
[2:03:23] and stillness in general.
[2:03:26] >> Mhm.
[2:03:26] >> Yeah. What were you doing in there? Did
[2:03:28] you journal at all?
[2:03:29] >> Oh, I didn't bring anything in.
[2:03:31] >> Um I I I knew if I had access to
[2:03:33] writing, then that's a
[2:03:36] >> such a security blanket for me
[2:03:38] >> and I can always find God on the page in
[2:03:40] two-way prayer. So, I was like, "But
[2:03:42] what if you didn't have that?"
[2:03:44] >> Like, "What if you didn't have a
[2:03:45] notebook? What if you didn't have a pen?
[2:03:46] What if you didn't have light? What if
[2:03:47] you didn't have Could you still find
[2:03:49] it?"
[2:03:51] >> And uh so, yes. [laughter]
[2:03:54] >> Answer is yes.
[2:03:56] >> Well, it found me.
[2:03:57] >> Yes,
[2:03:57] >> it found me. Actually, what happened is
[2:04:01] a lot of things happened, but what
[2:04:02] happened that was interesting is I
[2:04:03] thought I was going to be really good at
[2:04:04] it [laughter]
[2:04:06] >> cuz I was like, I meditate a lot. I like
[2:04:08] myself.
[2:04:09] >> Yeah. I don't have any enemies in my
[2:04:10] mind anymore. I don't think um I love
[2:04:13] being alone. I'm not afraid of the dark.
[2:04:15] I'm not claustrophobic. This is going to
[2:04:16] be great. And um and I was like, "Let's
[2:04:18] go." Like, like, "Shut the door. Let's
[2:04:20] go." And the minute they shut the door,
[2:04:22] >> I freaking freaked out so hard. Like I
[2:04:25] did not like I went mental. I was like,
[2:04:27] "Wow." Like I did not like I was wow.
[2:04:31] Okay. Like my body went crazy. My mind
[2:04:33] went crazy. I panicked. Um, like I think
[2:04:37] I had a pan a full panic attack.
[2:04:39] >> Wow.
[2:04:39] >> Um, yeah, I was like, "Whoa, I did not
[2:04:42] see that coming." And um, and then I
[2:04:44] heard go I'll just say God's voice say,
[2:04:46] "Let the wild horses run."
[2:04:49] >> So just don't fight this. Like just let
[2:04:50] this run out. Like let your brain run
[2:04:52] out. Let your body shake. Like whatever
[2:04:53] has to happen. So it was just like
[2:04:56] thought thought, you know, like just
[2:04:58] this completely disordered mind and this
[2:05:00] completely disordered body. And then um,
[2:05:02] one of the thoughts I had was what if
[2:05:04] God isn't real? And what if this thing
[2:05:07] that I speak to every day that brings me
[2:05:09] such peace and calm and directs my life
[2:05:11] is just a figment of my imagination and
[2:05:13] does not exist, never did. There's
[2:05:15] nothing but void. There's never been
[2:05:17] anything here. We are alone in the
[2:05:19] universe. And I had like the biggest
[2:05:21] existential freak. I was like, you know,
[2:05:23] like just like I'm not going to be, you
[2:05:25] know, like ah, you know, and um and then
[2:05:28] God said, that's the one thought I'm not
[2:05:31] going to let you entertain
[2:05:33] while you're in here. You can go in any
[2:05:35] you can go anywhere you want while
[2:05:36] you're here, but not that because first
[2:05:38] of all, it isn't true and you're going
[2:05:41] to scare yourself to death with that.
[2:05:42] And it's not true. I'm I'm right here.
[2:05:45] So, and secondly, you're not going to do
[2:05:48] well in here without a god [laughter]
[2:05:50] for 5 days. And you're not going to do
[2:05:52] well out there without a god. So,
[2:05:57] >> that's it. That that's a non-starter for
[2:05:59] a conversation. And I was just like, "Oh
[2:06:01] my god, thank God." M
[2:06:02] >> and then that's when it began. And I was
[2:06:04] like, okay, you're here.
[2:06:07] And you're always here, so we're good.
[2:06:10] And I guess that's what my soul came
[2:06:11] here to to learn.
[2:06:14] >> So you couldn't be alone if you tried.
[2:06:18] Go in the deepest, darkest hole.
[2:06:22] >> You're not alone.
[2:06:22] >> You're not alone.
[2:06:23] >> In the complete void, even
[2:06:26] >> there is no void.
[2:06:28] [laughter]
[2:06:29] I'd be remiss if I didn't ask. What do
[2:06:31] you think it means to know thyself?
[2:06:39] >> Oh, what comes to mind? Two things. One
[2:06:42] is serenity.
[2:06:44] I think um
[2:06:47] that people who know themselves
[2:06:50] and have accepted themselves
[2:06:53] and have no notes,
[2:06:56] you know, like no notes, I just love
[2:06:59] you. I've got you. I'm with you. Um
[2:07:02] there's a serenity that is maybe the
[2:07:04] side effect of knowing thyself. Um the
[2:07:08] reward, if I want to put it in those
[2:07:10] terms, and I'm not sure I do. um the
[2:07:13] impact.
[2:07:15] But
[2:07:16] for me, what it means personally,
[2:07:20] so I'm menopausal, which means my sleep
[2:07:23] has been weird. I mean, that doesn't
[2:07:25] mean that for everybody, but for me, it
[2:07:26] means that my sleep has been weird. And
[2:07:29] um so like three nights I had these
[2:07:32] nights where I just it's like we're not
[2:07:33] sleeping. It's like it's like it's a
[2:07:36] talent I used to have. I'm like, I
[2:07:38] thought I used to know how to do this.
[2:07:39] like you just lay down, you shut your
[2:07:40] eyes and you go to sleep and it's like
[2:07:42] no, not anymore. Like this is
[2:07:44] interesting and and there are times when
[2:07:46] I get frustrated with that and then I
[2:07:48] get fearful with that. I'm like
[2:07:50] tomorrow's going to suck if we don't
[2:07:52] sleep. Um,
[2:07:54] so just like three nights ago, I was
[2:07:56] having a non-sleeping night and I was
[2:07:58] doing all the things I know to do that
[2:08:00] help and none of them were helping. And
[2:08:02] I took a bath and I ate a banana,
[2:08:05] [laughter]
[2:08:05] you know, and I and I chanted and I
[2:08:07] like, you know, sprayed some lavender in
[2:08:10] my face. I don't know. And my body's
[2:08:11] just like, "Bitch, we're not sleeping."
[2:08:13] [laughter]
[2:08:14] And and I had this anger at myself, this
[2:08:17] like little wave of anger at myself,
[2:08:19] like you should you should sleep. And
[2:08:23] then the next thought I had was um I
[2:08:27] just put my hand in my heart and I said,
[2:08:29] "I will never turn my back on you.
[2:08:33] I will never turn my back on you. I've
[2:08:35] done I've done it in the past and I
[2:08:37] won't do it again."
[2:08:39] For me, that's what it means. know
[2:08:40] thyself is like I will never throw you
[2:08:43] away. I will never abandon you. I will
[2:08:46] never turn my back on you and just a
[2:08:48] commitment that I have to myself. So if
[2:08:51] this is going to be a sleepless night,
[2:08:53] then we're in it together, you know. So
[2:08:55] we're going to get up and read and
[2:08:57] that's okay. And if tomorrow's a hard
[2:08:59] day, then I'll love you then, too. And
[2:09:02] and that's something that I did come to
[2:09:05] Earth school to learn because I was not
[2:09:07] pre-programmed
[2:09:09] to intuitively have a sense of affection
[2:09:12] toward myself. I was pre-programmed to
[2:09:14] have a tremendous sense of shame,
[2:09:17] to feel like I could never be good
[2:09:20] enough, could never get it right, could
[2:09:22] never earn enough, could never have
[2:09:25] enough love, could never
[2:09:28] like just constant self-improvement
[2:09:30] project that never ends. And so to have
[2:09:33] come now at the age of 57 to a place
[2:09:35] where I'm like, little sister, I'm never
[2:09:38] going to throw you away. I'm never going
[2:09:40] to turn my back on you. and this is just
[2:09:42] fine. Like if this is what we do, if
[2:09:45] this is just what it is, then then this
[2:09:48] is great and I'm happy to be here with
[2:09:50] you. And that
[2:09:53] has taken a long time to get to 57 years
[2:09:56] and who knows how many lifetimes. But
[2:09:58] just for today, we're good here.
[2:10:02] And that's all there is. [laughter]
[2:10:05] >> You've really become your own best
[2:10:06] friend.
[2:10:07] >> Yeah. my own secure attachment. For
[2:10:09] somebody who has a very severe
[2:10:10] attachment disorder,
[2:10:12] >> um I am my own secure attachment.
[2:10:17] >> No small feet.
[2:10:18] >> No small feet. If I can do it,
[2:10:22] [laughter]
[2:10:24] if I can have a secure attachment to me,
[2:10:27] anybody can do that. I know that to be
[2:10:31] true because I have a very severe
[2:10:33] attachment disorder. So if I if I can
[2:10:35] have a just a day where I'm okay in my
[2:10:39] own company, that's amazing.
[2:10:41] >> And that's available to anybody.
[2:10:45] >> Liz, I'm so honored you're gracing us
[2:10:46] with your presence after a good period
[2:10:49] of just
[2:10:50] >> hanging out.
[2:10:50] >> Hanging out. [laughter]
[2:10:53] I uh
[2:10:55] >> yeah, it's
[2:10:57] it's [snorts] such a great joy to be
[2:11:00] able to do this show and then you get
[2:11:02] exposed to so many people's work and
[2:11:04] then your job is to dive into their
[2:11:06] story and their genius and all the
[2:11:07] things and then you get to meet them and
[2:11:09] feel like you get a new new friend at
[2:11:11] the end of it and um
[2:11:14] >> yeah I I throughout this whole
[2:11:15] conversation have felt your commitment
[2:11:17] to your own au authenticity and like
[2:11:19] saying what is true what feels true and
[2:11:21] not what's just perfor performance, but
[2:11:22] like what is actual presence in this
[2:11:24] moment. And
[2:11:25] >> so, [snorts] thank you for being here.
[2:11:27] >> Oh my god, it's a joy.
[2:11:29] >> Yeah.
[2:11:30] >> Thank you for what you do and for who
[2:11:32] you give the mic to and um and for being
[2:11:35] so curious and for being so lovely.
[2:11:38] >> Oh, thank you.
[2:11:39] >> Appreciate you.
[2:11:40] >> Appreciate you, too.
[2:11:41] >> Well, uh congrats on almost it's almost
[2:11:45] a year exactly of All the Way to the
[2:11:47] River, which is now available on
[2:11:48] paperback. Do a little promo.
[2:11:50] >> Thank you. Yeah, of course.
[2:11:52] >> And that's it. Do you have any other
[2:11:54] last words?
[2:11:55] >> No, I think we did it. We covered
[2:11:56] everything.
[2:11:58] >> Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. And
[2:12:00] thank you for easing me back into this
[2:12:01] and making it easy. Thanks you guys,
[2:12:04] too, for
[2:12:05] >> everything you do.
[2:12:06] >> You're welcome back anytime, whatever
[2:12:08] you want. And for everybody that's
[2:12:10] listened to this episode of the No
[2:12:11] Thyself podcast, let us know how this
[2:12:13] episode was uniquely impactful. If you
[2:12:16] did that two-way prayer with us, what
[2:12:18] came through to you? I'm curious to see
[2:12:20] what came up.
[2:12:22] >> Write in the comments.
[2:12:23] >> Hey everyone, in case you didn't know,
[2:12:25] we have an online community. [music]
[2:12:27] It's amazing. It's called the Know
[2:12:29] Thyself Collective, and there are three
[2:12:30] main things on the inside. First, each
[2:12:33] month I [music] host a 2hour live call
[2:12:35] with a featured guest. Think of it like
[2:12:37] this podcast except you're in the room
[2:12:39] with us. We go deeper. We take live
[2:12:42] questions. [music] And when you join,
[2:12:43] you get the full archive of every past
[2:12:45] call. It's basically like a second
[2:12:48] podcast. Second, you get a full
[2:12:50] companion guide for every podcast
[2:12:52] episode of this show with key takeaways,
[2:12:55] transcripts, journal prompts, and more.
[2:12:58] Third, but not least, we [music] host
[2:13:00] community calls every 2 weeks to meet
[2:13:02] each other and put all of this into
[2:13:04] practice together. It's 29 a month, and
[2:13:07] if money [music] is ever the reason you
[2:13:08] can't join, just email us and we'll take
[2:13:10] care of you. If you feel called to
[2:13:12] practice this stuff alongside people
[2:13:14] asking the same questions, go to know
[2:13:16] thyselfcollective.com or use the link in
[2:13:18] description. I hope to see you there.
[2:13:24] [music]