Transcript
[0:03] You're listening to the Yoga Medicine
[0:05] Podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Land.
[0:09] This podcast brings you information and
[0:11] resources to enhance the therapeutic
[0:12] [music] effects of your practice based
[0:14] on a deeper understanding of anatomy,
[0:17] physiology, [music]
[0:18] and the integration of modern science
[0:19] and research with traditional practices
[0:22] and experiences.
[0:23] Join me and my co-hosts Tiffany
[0:26] Krookshank [music]
[0:26] and Kachu Bach as we dive into all
[0:29] things yoga research and wellness.
[0:34] Hello and welcome or welcome back to the
[0:36] yoga medicine podcast. Today we are
[0:39] diving into an aspect of yoga history
[0:41] that is probably unfamiliar and yet is
[0:44] of more personal relevance to most of us
[0:47] listening than the yoga history that we
[0:49] have learned. And that is the role of
[0:51] women in yoga. a role that has
[0:54] consistently been overlooked and
[0:56] underststudied.
[0:58] Our guide for the conversation is
[1:00] returning guest Fed Munda who as you'll
[1:03] remember is a broadcaster, journalist,
[1:05] academic, yoga teacher and researcher.
[1:09] She holds an MA in the traditions of
[1:11] yoga and meditation from the school of
[1:14] oriental and African studies and is
[1:16] undertaking doctoral work into the
[1:18] politics of yoga. Fauos has created the
[1:22] upcoming yoga medicine live online women
[1:25] in yoga teacher training which runs from
[1:27] November 5 to December 10, 2026.
[1:31] So let's learn about the role of women
[1:34] in yoga both historic and modern with
[1:36] Fedos Munda.
[1:39] Hi Fedo, welcome back to the yoga
[1:41] medicine podcast.
[1:43] >> Hi Rachel and thank you so much for
[1:45] having me on. I think it might be my
[1:47] third time. So, I'm feeling like a bit
[1:49] of a regular, which is very cool. Four.
[1:51] Amazing.
[1:52] >> It definitely because we've had like
[1:54] yoga politics and history, yoga and
[1:56] religion, yoga's hidden history, and now
[1:58] we're talking women in yoga. So, podcast
[2:00] number four for you.
[2:01] >> Brilliant. Yay. Four. Excited.
[2:04] >> And as I hinted to, we are talking about
[2:07] women in yoga. I think most yoga
[2:09] teachers are in a similar boat to me
[2:11] where the extent that we know about yoga
[2:13] history is it used to be only for men
[2:16] and now it's mostly if you look at
[2:18] social media and magazine covers and you
[2:20] know active wear advertisements it's
[2:22] mostly done by women and we don't know
[2:25] too much about the area in between
[2:28] ancient times and current capitalist
[2:30] western times and you are here today to
[2:33] fill in some of the blanks and to get us
[2:35] curious and asking more questions.
[2:38] Yep, that's exactly it. So uh the idea
[2:40] for this course actually came about
[2:42] during one of my 200 hour teacher
[2:45] trainings where one of the students on
[2:47] hearing pretty much exactly what you've
[2:48] said you know that this practice evolves
[2:50] from a mostly male practice to a female
[2:53] dominated western practice looked at me
[2:56] and and said to me are you actually
[2:58] saying to us that yoga asa in particular
[3:01] so the movement practice and elements of
[3:04] breath work and meditation went from
[3:07] brown men Indian men to white women in
[3:10] the west and then only found their way
[3:12] back to someone like you, a brown woman.
[3:14] And when she said that to me, it was a
[3:17] really profound question. Nobody had
[3:18] ever put it to me that way. And I
[3:20] thought actually, yeah, she's she's
[3:22] right. That that is exactly what I'm
[3:23] saying. And it's kind of, you know, that
[3:25] circular journey that yoga has taken
[3:28] back to me as a woman who is quite
[3:32] connected to culture made me feel like
[3:34] there's something missing in in the
[3:36] exploration of of how I'm seeing myself
[3:38] here. So that led me to wanting to
[3:41] design the course. Um, I've just
[3:42] finished teaching a live version of it
[3:43] here at home in Cape Town, which will
[3:46] be, you know, the online version will be
[3:47] slightly different because the spaces
[3:48] are different. But I think it's it's a
[3:51] really interesting way of exploring
[3:52] things because there's so much room for
[3:54] as you say filling in gaps. You know,
[3:56] there's a lot we don't know which means
[3:59] there's a lot of room to play.
[4:01] >> Yeah. And the question from your student
[4:03] even focused purely on the arsenal side
[4:06] of yoga which as we now know is a
[4:09] relatively small part of the picture and
[4:11] I think today in our conversation you'll
[4:14] take us before that to look at some of
[4:16] those more ancient times.
[4:19] Yeah, exactly. So I mean asa as we as we
[4:22] practice it today. We know from all our
[4:23] history of yoga material is around 150
[4:26] years old. I mean some of the older asas
[4:28] come from the 15th century. Something
[4:30] like sitting cross-legged or lotus
[4:33] position or some of the very uh basic
[4:36] twists would be you know from an older
[4:38] time but they're very few poses from
[4:40] from that time. Then we have a
[4:42] proliferation of poses from the 17th
[4:44] century. very difficult poses like
[4:46] one-handed handstand which I don't think
[4:48] a lot of us practice so
[4:50] >> well I mean I haven't done it today but
[4:51] you know maybe tomorrow
[4:53] >> maybe tomorrow most of the sequences we
[4:55] we practice would be about 150 years old
[4:58] at their oldest and so I guess you're
[5:01] right when when we're trying to look at
[5:04] where is the female involvement we can
[5:06] either start at that point and and say
[5:07] where is the female involvement in the
[5:09] movement practice and then we've got to
[5:11] look even more recent to about 60 or 70
[5:13] years ago or we've got to go back and
[5:15] we've got to look at metaphor mythology
[5:18] and really almost like yoga adjacent
[5:21] content that we then bring into the
[5:23] practice. So that's kind of what I'm
[5:24] doing in a lot of this course.
[5:26] >> Great. So let's start then in the really
[5:29] early times around the the Vaders and
[5:33] the epics. Let's start talking about the
[5:36] role of women there. Was it a real role?
[5:38] Was it more sort of imagined or
[5:41] stereotyped?
[5:43] >> Yes. So the real role was there in that
[5:45] the oldest practice of the Vadic era was
[5:47] the ritual fire sacrifice and the ritual
[5:50] fire sacrifice required that a married
[5:53] male householder performed the
[5:55] sacrifice. So the woman's presence was
[5:56] required but she needed to be there
[5:59] silently and I think that that's a very
[6:02] interesting way to approach it. You know
[6:04] we start with that you're here.
[6:07] >> I think my partner would be on board.
[6:09] [laughter]
[6:10] >> Yeah, mine too. Mine too. So you know we
[6:13] start with that understanding of like I
[6:15] can physically be in a space but what
[6:17] does it mean to almost be present but
[6:19] invisible and kind of looking looking
[6:22] through that and then we move to the
[6:24] epics which are myths and and poetry and
[6:27] we look at the way that women are
[6:29] characterized in the epics. So I try and
[6:31] focus on different women in different
[6:33] courses that I teach. One who crops up
[6:35] over and over again is Sitta the wife of
[6:37] Ram from the Ramayana. And Sitta is
[6:41] really she comes across and her role is
[6:44] to be the perfect wife, obedient,
[6:45] submissive, all the things I suppose
[6:48] that we would recoil against and and to
[6:51] and the challenges that she's got to go
[6:53] through because she's kidnapped by the
[6:55] demon king and and then rescued. And
[6:57] when she's rescued, her husband refuses
[7:00] to believe that she has been faithful to
[7:01] him during the time of her kidnapping
[7:03] and puts her through various challenges
[7:05] to prove her fidelity. And eventually, I
[7:08] mean, I won't tell you eventually,
[7:09] you'll have to join the course to find
[7:10] out, but you know, that those challenges
[7:12] and those kind of really really tough
[7:15] and potentially very unfair tests are
[7:18] what really define the struggle of
[7:20] womanhood. So, there's that element of
[7:21] it, but then you get some very strong,
[7:23] rebellious women, women who try and push
[7:26] back against the system and who live
[7:28] very unusual lives like Draadi who's
[7:30] married to the five Panda brothers. So
[7:32] she's one wife and she has five husbands
[7:35] and yeah, we don't hear about that too
[7:37] often
[7:38] >> and kind of the role that she plays in
[7:41] in almost watching their downfall
[7:43] because they end up wanting to conquer
[7:45] lots of territory and they fall into
[7:47] gambling and eventually they lose her in
[7:49] a gambling match because she's the only
[7:50] possession they have left which in
[7:52] itself is a bit weird to think about. So
[7:54] those epic women uh yes there's a lot of
[7:56] stereotype uh but the way that I present
[8:00] the physical class because obviously
[8:02] nobody was doing physical postures at
[8:04] that point not certainly not for any
[8:06] kind of exercise of course they were
[8:07] moving around walking and carrying water
[8:09] and so on is that we've really got to
[8:11] imagine ourselves there. So there's a
[8:13] lot of theater in the way the physical
[8:15] class works, you know, and and I find
[8:18] that students are a little bit hesitant
[8:20] sometimes to just like let go of the the
[8:23] control of, you know, am I being a bit
[8:25] of an actor in this space, but yes, we
[8:27] are. We're trying to imagine ourselves
[8:28] in a completely different time. So I
[8:31] think it really gives us this embodied
[8:32] sense of like what could it have been
[8:35] like?
[8:36] >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's such an
[8:37] interesting question because when we
[8:40] look at anything ancient through a
[8:42] modern lens,
[8:44] >> it's really easy to judge it by current
[8:46] standards. You know, as you were saying,
[8:48] obedient and silent and, you know,
[8:51] respectful and all of the things that a
[8:52] wife should be. I was physically
[8:54] recoiling because when viewed through a
[8:56] modern lens, the submissive
[8:58] >> wife is for most of us at least a pretty
[9:02] unpleasant idea. But that's not what it
[9:05] would have felt like at the time. You
[9:07] know, there are very similar stereotypes
[9:09] in the Bible, for example.
[9:12] >> Precisely. And and you know, just to
[9:14] make it really visceral and tangible to
[9:16] our modern day, you know,
[9:18] >> there are a lot of women who continue to
[9:20] live that way and who not so long ago,
[9:23] even in a very kind of mo I mean, I'm in
[9:25] Cape Town in South Africa, which is
[9:27] definitely the global south, but we we
[9:28] also consider ourselves part of the
[9:30] Western world. you know, we're very
[9:32] influenced by American culture. I mean,
[9:33] you would know being down in New Zealand
[9:35] as well. So, and you're definitely not
[9:37] as global south as we are, but you know,
[9:39] even somebody like my mom had those
[9:41] kinds of ideas and you know, she's she's
[9:43] only a generation older than I am. So
[9:46] it's very interesting that that that
[9:49] idea and the idea of Sitha particularly
[9:51] in South Asian households lives on and
[9:54] to this day young women are growing up
[9:56] in the subcontinent with her as the role
[9:59] model for the kind of wives they should
[10:01] become. You know I grew up watching the
[10:03] story of the Ramayana and thinking maybe
[10:05] one day I would be that type of woman. I
[10:07] mean it it was really never on the cards
[10:09] but it wasn't absent in my life and it's
[10:11] not that long ago. Gosh, I imagine if
[10:14] I'd been reading those stories when I
[10:16] was a kid, I would have identified more
[10:18] with with like Hanuman. I'm I'm the
[10:20] monkey jumping over the gap and as
[10:22] opposed to being the woman rescued. But
[10:24] gosh, that said, there's a big
[10:25] resurgence of the whole tradife ideal of
[10:28] there being, you know, the perfect way
[10:30] to wife and for it to be
[10:32] >> beautiful and flawless and for
[10:34] everything to be made from scratch and
[10:36] not to have ambitions of your own
[10:37] outside of the household. So yeah, as
[10:40] much as I'd like to think we're away
[10:41] from that stereotype, we aren't. Not all
[10:43] of us and not everywhere.
[10:45] >> No. And not everybody wants to be. And I
[10:47] think it's also about then what does the
[10:50] how do you present in your body if that
[10:52] is the way you are choosing to live. So
[10:54] I mean the choice element is obviously
[10:56] one one part of it that I think is
[10:57] important. We have to be choosing it and
[10:59] not for it to be imposed upon us. But if
[11:02] you are choosing that as a lifestyle and
[11:04] and maybe it's not the kind of lifestyle
[11:06] I would choose but I I really believe
[11:08] very firmly in uh you know the best part
[11:11] of having freedom is allowing somebody
[11:14] else to have their freedom and
[11:16] respecting that freedom even if you
[11:17] disagree with it. So you know people can
[11:19] do what they want. I I I'm never
[11:21] prescriptive in in what I teach. And I
[11:23] just want to ask the question if that is
[11:25] the life that you that you've chosen how
[11:28] do you then show up in your body? How
[11:29] how is it different to the way another
[11:31] woman might show up in her body?
[11:33] >> Oh, interesting. Yeah, I love that. So,
[11:36] we've talked about the sort of very
[11:38] earliest times, the silent supportive
[11:42] role of women in the rituals,
[11:45] >> excuse me,
[11:46] >> the bless you. We've talked about some
[11:48] of the myths and stereotypes that that I
[11:52] think are present in a lot of cultures
[11:54] of there being idealized roles for
[11:56] people in in in culture in society and
[11:58] in the family. What comes next?
[12:02] >> So next we get to the goddess period
[12:05] which I think people get very excited
[12:06] about because they immediately jump to
[12:09] ideas of the feminine divine and they
[12:11] immediately jump to ideas of women as
[12:15] human figures being worshiped. Now the
[12:17] goddesses and particularly the fierce
[12:18] goddesses were not ordinary humans and
[12:21] they were depicted as scary, gruesome,
[12:25] violent. I mean Kylie and her 10 avatars
[12:28] appear in all sorts of forms. Most of
[12:31] them are are really terrifying. And my
[12:33] favorite one is Chinamasta who is the
[12:36] the self-beheaded goddess who carries
[12:38] her own head in her hand and walks
[12:41] around with a weapon and her own head
[12:43] and is is kind of the the symbolism is
[12:48] that you can be transformed by changing
[12:51] yourself completely and that there's an
[12:53] element of transformation in this
[12:55] complete almost death of oneself and
[12:58] one's ego and and that kind of thing.
[13:00] It's the images are are terrifying and
[13:02] and very interesting to look at. You
[13:04] know, there lots of goddesses with skull
[13:05] necklaces for example or standing on
[13:08] corpses and depicted in cremation
[13:10] grounds. I did a little bit of study on
[13:11] the 10 goddesses when I completed my
[13:13] master's degree. So it was one of the
[13:15] areas I was quite interested in probably
[13:17] for the same reasons. You know, I
[13:18] thought it would be cool to try and
[13:20] understand women in positions of
[13:22] dominance. But in fact, the 10 goddesses
[13:24] are often worshiped by men.
[13:26] >> And the idea around those goddesses is
[13:28] that you've got to touch the the
[13:30] terrifying and the disgusting and the
[13:33] gruesome in order to like fully cleanse
[13:35] yourself of all those things that are in
[13:37] you so that you can find the purity in
[13:40] yourself. So that class when we look at
[13:43] the goddesses we we really examine you
[13:45] know to me it's almost like the way the
[13:47] theory of orientalism works that when
[13:49] the west west looks upon the east it
[13:52] looks upon it as either very mystical or
[13:54] magical or quite sinister kind of like
[13:57] you know the saint and the snake charmer
[13:59] and it's the same I think in the way
[14:01] that women are viewed they either viewed
[14:02] as the perfect wife or the terrifying
[14:05] scary goddess and the middle ground is
[14:07] completely lost
[14:08] >> so we we study those goddesses through
[14:11] strength. So the class is quite a strong
[14:14] strength building class because the idea
[14:16] is that you want to build physical
[14:17] strength and then also through the idea
[14:20] of like where where does if we compare
[14:22] the woman of the epics and the goddesses
[14:25] where's the middle what kind of falls
[14:27] into that hole between being very
[14:30] submissive and very strong and there's
[14:32] obviously a lot a lot more in that
[14:34] middle ground that we look at in that
[14:36] session. And this this is sort of from
[14:40] the Tantra period. Is that right?
[14:42] >> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So this falls into
[14:44] the tantric period. We've moved into
[14:46] kind of so the the Vadic period covers a
[14:49] large period of time. We're talking of
[14:50] about 3,000 years potentially even more.
[14:53] And and the epics would then cover the
[14:55] period straddling the year N up until
[14:57] about the 4th century of the common era
[14:59] and then the tantric period from about
[15:00] the fifth century onwards. And it seems
[15:03] to me, not that I know much about them,
[15:05] but in in my understanding, once we get
[15:08] to tantra, there is sort of more
[15:09] interest in the the divine masculine and
[15:12] the divine feminine and masculine and
[15:14] feminine, Shiva, Shiva, all of that sort
[15:17] of stuff seems to come out in that
[15:19] period. Is that right? Yeah, pretty much
[15:21] so. So once we once we get to tantra, I
[15:23] would phrase it as what you're seeing is
[15:25] an interest in using the subtle body to
[15:28] connect with the divine because tantra
[15:30] is all about finding the divine within
[15:32] yourself. And it's very difficult to
[15:35] explain to people particularly people in
[15:37] the western world who would generally
[15:39] have a a concept of religion through the
[15:41] religions of the book. So Christianity,
[15:43] Judaism and Islam. Tantra is really not
[15:45] anything like that because there's no
[15:48] it's it's not about having a separation
[15:50] between divine and human. It's actually
[15:52] about the unification of that. And
[15:54] unless you actually see yourself that
[15:55] way, which I don't think a lot of us do,
[15:57] even if we say we do, you're you're
[16:00] going to struggle to understand the
[16:01] concept of communing with the divine
[16:03] within you. But that's really what
[16:05] tantra is about. And because there a lot
[16:08] of this is deity based practice, you
[16:10] mentioned Shiva comes up a lot. Shyism
[16:13] is one of the faiths that forms during
[16:14] this time and Krishna is also a big
[16:17] feature in Tantra and Krishna is a great
[16:20] he attracts a lot of female disciples
[16:23] almost in a ve in a romantic kind of
[16:24] love affair way which we'll talk about a
[16:26] little bit later as well and there is
[16:28] this idea of neverending love between a
[16:31] god and a consort and so we see that
[16:33] happening over and over again uh you
[16:36] know Parvati crops up a lot during this
[16:38] time as well Krishna and Rada crop up a
[16:40] lot during this time uh I I'm very um
[16:44] nervous I suppose of this idea of
[16:47] masculine and feminine and and of
[16:49] isolating qualities to to these things
[16:51] because I think we we too easily fall
[16:53] into stereotype there you know we too
[16:55] easily say masculine energy is powerful
[16:57] and feminine energy is subtle and I
[17:00] don't experience that in myself at all
[17:02] so I try to stay away from that language
[17:05] >> yeah it's very much like your previous
[17:07] example of the the saintly wife or the
[17:11] sort of semi a demonic goddess. There's
[17:13] there's no middle ground. And we can get
[17:14] the same when we classify things too
[17:16] neatly as masculine, feminine, black,
[17:18] white, yin, yang,
[17:20] >> when the reality is always a continuum.
[17:23] And you know, exceptions, too, right?
[17:25] Things that don't fit that model.
[17:28] >> Exactly. Yeah. I just think there's no I
[17:30] can't think of a good reason for us to
[17:33] create these binaries around, you know,
[17:36] what we are and what we should be. I
[17:38] think we should rather be seeing things
[17:39] on a spectrum and that's the way that I
[17:42] prefer to present it. So I I try and
[17:44] stay away from gendered language. I mean
[17:46] obviously the course is called woman in
[17:47] yoga which is a gendered term in and of
[17:49] itself but uh I'm trying to not say
[17:52] women in yoga must be like this or like
[17:55] that or like that or like that. I'm
[17:56] trying to say and in fact we have a lot
[17:58] of men who attend this course as well
[18:00] >> and who and they are welcome to and I
[18:03] want as many men as possible so that we
[18:06] we're getting you know everybody
[18:07] involved in the discussion.
[18:09] >> Yeah, I love this. I think it's a really
[18:11] important discussion simply because it
[18:13] is an area that so many of us know so
[18:15] little about. There seems to be such a
[18:17] massive gap between the ancient yogis
[18:20] that I reference uh without knowing all
[18:22] that much about them when I teach. the
[18:23] ancient yogis believed X and my
[18:26] experience of what yoga is to me today
[18:28] with my students in my little corner of
[18:31] the world that there are some pretty big
[18:33] gaps there. All right. So we are
[18:35] currently around the tantric period.
[18:38] What comes next?
[18:40] So then we move into a it's almost later
[18:43] tantric or medieval period where we I I
[18:46] zone in really on one woman who is the
[18:48] the poet princess
[18:50] and who is pretty much in love with the
[18:53] god Krishna and writes a series of poems
[18:57] in praise of Krishna. Krishna is really
[19:00] the god that is the most woripped in the
[19:03] bakti practice. So there's a huge sense
[19:05] of devotional practice here. Mirab is
[19:08] not the only poet who wrote to Krishna
[19:10] but she's a good example because she's a
[19:12] female and that's kind of the content of
[19:13] the course and she's also a rebel
[19:16] because she is a highcast woman who has
[19:18] an arranged marriage who then becomes a
[19:20] young widow and at the time and even to
[19:23] this day widows are isolated in in
[19:25] communities where they're not allowed to
[19:27] work or remarry or mix with society
[19:29] because they're considered to be
[19:31] inospicious and to bring bad luck to
[19:34] people. So she is supposed to be sort of
[19:38] confined to this widow's commune, but
[19:40] she breaks out and escapes and ends up
[19:44] being quite wild really like dancing
[19:46] through the streets with very little
[19:47] clothing on living on her own, devoting
[19:51] herself to Krishna, singing in public,
[19:53] um telling her family that she doesn't
[19:55] care about their family honor. And this
[19:57] is a big thing in South Asian culture
[19:58] because the woman carries the family's
[20:00] honor. And if the woman is to is to act
[20:03] in a way that is inappropriate, the
[20:05] entire family's honor is brought down.
[20:07] It's a huge responsibility. And whenever
[20:10] I teach this session, I I say to people,
[20:12] you know, we we talk about it like it's
[20:14] some other world that we don't think we
[20:17] could exist in, but it exists to this
[20:19] day. I mean, we have millions of Afghan
[20:22] women who are living with that burden of
[20:26] carrying the family's honor, who are
[20:27] subject to the most cruel restrictions
[20:30] from the Taliban regime. Many of whom,
[20:32] and I work in, you know, I work in sport
[20:34] and I've been working a lot with
[20:35] members, exiled members of the Afghan
[20:38] women's cricket and football team who
[20:40] that burden of carrying the family honor
[20:42] and the the price you may pay for that,
[20:44] which could be your life on some
[20:45] occasion exists to this day. So when we
[20:49] put that into context and we understand
[20:50] that Mirabai really took her life into
[20:52] her hands when she decided she was going
[20:54] to do that and we then look through the
[20:56] poems that she that she wrote and there
[20:58] were volumes and volumes of them. It
[21:01] really allows us to see inside the mind
[21:02] of a woman who wanted to make her own
[21:04] decisions and so we look through we do a
[21:07] little bit of writing in that session as
[21:08] well. So I bring in my my main career in
[21:11] fact which is my career as a writer. We
[21:13] listen to a lot of the poems in song. So
[21:16] a lot of them have been remade into
[21:17] budgeons and guzzles and we will listen
[21:19] to that as we practice. So the the
[21:21] course is a combination of physical
[21:22] practice and theory and we just try and
[21:25] think about you know what does it mean
[21:27] to really act in a way that society does
[21:29] not expect of you and and also at what
[21:32] cost because it sounds cool and
[21:34] rebellious and and you know we've all
[21:35] got this idea of the 60s in mind and you
[21:38] know what it was like you know free love
[21:39] and so on but it's not for many women
[21:42] it's dangerous to do something like that
[21:43] and it's not just about you know letting
[21:45] go and making one's own choice without
[21:47] there being consequences. So, I really
[21:49] want people to think through that.
[21:51] >> And this Mi was a a real person. She's a
[21:54] historical figure. She's not a figure
[21:55] from mythology. She's an actual real
[21:57] flesh and blood woman.
[22:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. She She's not a figure from
[22:02] mythology. Exactly. So, we we're
[22:03] starting to get, I guess, closer to
[22:05] reality as we move as we move on in time
[22:10] because Yeah, definitely. I mean, the
[22:11] goddesses are are absolutely figures of
[22:13] mythology, as are the the woman from the
[22:15] epics. So yeah, I guess now that you've
[22:18] asked it, she probably is our first real
[22:20] person that we encounter. [laughter]
[22:22] >> Yeah. And again, I love the fact that
[22:24] you've pointed out that it is so
[22:25] tempting as a modern listener to think,
[22:28] "What a cool chick. What a rock and roll
[22:30] chick." And she obviously is a very
[22:32] cool, very brave woman. But to to to
[22:36] highlight that, be careful there because
[22:38] there are consequences to those actions,
[22:40] not just for her, but for her family as
[22:42] well. And so there's always more
[22:44] complexity to stories than we would like
[22:46] there to be. You know, we want it to be
[22:48] much more.
[22:49] >> And then she lived happily ever after
[22:51] and the end. And that's not that's not
[22:53] life.
[22:54] >> No. And I think, you know, there's a lot
[22:56] to to think about in terms of western
[22:59] feminism and and what Western feminism
[23:02] thinks women can achieve just by
[23:06] rebelling, putting their minds to it,
[23:08] going against the norms. because you
[23:10] know and I I live in Africa and and I'm
[23:12] very involved in African feminist ideas.
[23:15] African feminism is a completely
[23:16] different thing to western feminism as
[23:18] is South Asian feminism in that you know
[23:21] a lot of the responsibilities and
[23:22] burdens on women in these parts of the
[23:24] world are completely different. What's
[23:26] expected of them is completely
[23:28] different. their roles as mothers,
[23:29] grandmothers, sisters, members of the
[23:31] community require certain things of them
[23:34] which you you would be cutting down the
[23:37] bonds of their communities if they were
[23:38] to step too far outside of that. And
[23:40] women tend not to want to do that. They
[23:43] want to hold these things together. So I
[23:45] think it's a really worth thinking about
[23:47] what does it mean to resist in that
[23:49] context and it doesn't mean run away
[23:51] from your home and never speak to your
[23:53] family again and live your own life on
[23:56] your own terms. It actually means
[23:57] working within the system and working to
[24:00] change the system while you are still in
[24:02] it. So it's a very different concept and
[24:05] yeah I find a lot of students start to
[24:07] at this point in the course you know you
[24:08] we're normally about 3 weeks in around
[24:10] here start to really think about you
[24:12] know the nuance of what it means to take
[24:15] responsibility or to have
[24:16] self-governance and self-acountability
[24:19] because we don't live in isolation. You
[24:21] know, we live in communities who who
[24:23] depend on us some of the time, but also
[24:25] we live in communities who influence us
[24:27] and who we influence. And it's part of
[24:29] our jobs to be responsible members of
[24:31] those communities.
[24:34] >> Yeah. Another huge bucket of questions,
[24:37] right, of what even is feminism in the
[24:40] West? You know, it was different in my
[24:42] mother's generation where feminism
[24:44] meant,
[24:45] >> you know, going to university and
[24:47] getting a job and burning your bra and
[24:49] doing everything the guys could do. And
[24:51] there were some pluses to that and there
[24:53] were some minuses to that. And in in my
[24:56] generation and in the generation
[24:57] subsequent to me, it means something
[24:59] different again. And I hear a lot of
[25:00] younger women hesitant even to call
[25:02] themselves feminists now
[25:04] >> because they want to be, I guess,
[25:06] peopleists, which I respect.
[25:09] >> I get it. Yeah, it's
[25:11] >> very tricky conversation, isn't it?
[25:13] Because I I I feel like in some ways I
[25:16] want to link it to some of the
[25:17] anti-racism movements that we saw, which
[25:20] was that, you know, we we don't live in
[25:23] a world where everybody starts off the
[25:25] same position and where everybody is,
[25:28] you know, on the same, you know, that
[25:29] that very interesting picture where
[25:31] people are all peeping over the wall and
[25:32] someone's on a very high block and
[25:34] someone's on a low block and someone's
[25:35] on a medium block. That that's life,
[25:37] right? we're all starting from a
[25:38] different place. That will probably
[25:40] always be the case. And so there are
[25:42] certain groups, there are certain types
[25:44] of people for whom, you know, we do have
[25:46] to to advocate a little bit more. But I
[25:50] think, you know, having watched
[25:51] something like adolescence, was it
[25:52] earlier this year or last year, I can't
[25:54] remember, which which talks about, you
[25:57] know, the plight of young boys in in
[25:59] Britain in particular. It also made me
[26:02] consider what do we do when when we put
[26:06] the woman or our feminist discussions at
[26:09] the center of so much conversation to
[26:11] the point of exclusion of the men in our
[26:13] communities. We can't be
[26:16] >> we can't really be operating in silos. I
[26:18] think we've got to be inviting each
[26:20] other in. We've got to get to the point
[26:21] where we having conversations with each
[26:23] other. So, of course, I I mean I I feel
[26:26] very strongly that we should be
[26:27] anti-racist, that we should be feminist,
[26:29] that we should aim for those kinds of
[26:31] things. But at the same time, we need to
[26:33] we need to be doing it together. We need
[26:34] to be saying to everybody, how can you
[26:36] contribute as well? And for to have that
[26:38] conversation, everybody's got to feel
[26:40] comfortable in themselves, in their
[26:41] bodies, in their presence, in how
[26:42] they're showing up. And everybody's got
[26:44] to feel like it's a space where they can
[26:45] share honestly and openly. Very
[26:47] difficult.
[26:48] >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. Extremely difficult.
[26:51] And have I taken us? Have I waylaid us?
[26:54] We have introduced a real woman, a poet
[26:58] and a rebel. What comes next in your
[27:02] history of
[27:02] >> So next we we then um start to look at
[27:05] the actual involvement of women in the
[27:07] development of the asa practice. So
[27:09] there's quite a big gap between Miabai
[27:12] in the 15th 16th century and then when
[27:14] we get to essentially yoga moving west
[27:17] in the 19th and 20th centuries and that
[27:20] gap you know a lot of research still
[27:21] needs to be done to fill that gap in but
[27:24] we jump to Indra Devi who was the first
[27:27] female student of the Asa Guru Krishna
[27:29] Macharia who moved to the US. So she had
[27:33] a long and storied career in that um her
[27:36] husband was in a console general and
[27:38] then they lived in China then he passed
[27:40] away then she moved to the US and in the
[27:42] US she opened a yoga studio and and she
[27:45] really became the celebrity yoga teacher
[27:47] of her time and she taught the likes of
[27:49] Gloria Swanson and Marilyn Monroe and
[27:52] Zaza Gabbor and in 1959 she writes a
[27:55] book called Yoga for Americans which I
[27:57] love it because she's being pretty
[27:58] honest. She's saying the yoga we need to
[28:01] teach here has to be slightly different
[28:02] and you Americans need a different way
[28:04] of thinking about this. And it's a six
[28:06] week uh course in which she teaches six
[28:10] weeks of physical postures, breathing
[28:12] exercises. She's also got some very
[28:14] interesting things about like how one
[28:15] should get out of bed and all these
[28:17] kinds of things. And we we do a couple
[28:19] of the weeks courses in our physical
[28:22] practice and we talk about her and her
[28:23] legacy. And so yes, it's the second real
[28:26] person that we're meeting and it's, you
[28:28] know, she's probably the most prominent
[28:30] female figure in Asa Yoga up until
[28:33] Instagram, you know, and and I do think
[28:35] that it is worth thinking about how it
[28:38] is that a Latvian woman born in the the
[28:41] Soviet Empire ends up becoming the face
[28:44] of Asa Yoga in the US when there are,
[28:47] you know, close to a billion people in
[28:48] India by this point in time and we're
[28:50] not seeing those women represented at
[28:52] all.
[28:53] >> Yeah. And it's also fascinating to me
[28:55] that it starts in Hollywood with with
[28:58] the stars. And I feel like we can we can
[29:01] still feel the legacy of that in modern
[29:03] postural yoga in the west now. The sort
[29:05] of
[29:06] >> you know you when I was first practicing
[29:09] it was Sting and Madonna who were
[29:10] practicing and then it was Jennifer
[29:12] Aniston doing Ashtanga and it has
[29:15] continued to be driven by the trends
[29:17] that are exhibited by famous people and
[29:19] then Instagram famous people. Yeah, we
[29:21] can see that legacy today.
[29:24] Absolutely. And also, you know, beyond
[29:26] just the fame, a lot of these people
[29:29] would have had backgrounds in dance
[29:31] >> and gymnastics and theater.
[29:34] >> Yeah. But but their mobility was
[29:37] generally at a more advanced level than
[29:39] the average human. And so a lot of what
[29:41] you see that is physically possible in
[29:44] that space is not physically possible in
[29:46] your average studio down the road. And
[29:48] people are not seeing that. So I think
[29:50] that it's very important that we talk
[29:52] about that.
[29:53] >> I think so too. And I think for a lot of
[29:55] people there is a bit of a reality gap
[29:57] between your teacher training and the
[29:59] pictures that you see in the textbook
[30:01] and then [laughter] you go out and teach
[30:02] people who aren't in your teacher
[30:04] training.
[30:05] >> You know, a little bit changing these
[30:07] days, but it used to be all people who
[30:08] were fairly flexible themselves and
[30:10] pretty able-bodied. And then you'd go to
[30:13] teach the general public and and it
[30:15] would be quite a shock to be h how do I
[30:18] adapt this textbook picture to the
[30:20] actual people in front of me who they
[30:22] don't go that way? They don't bend that
[30:24] way. That doesn't touch the ground.
[30:26] That's, you know, that's twisted. That's
[30:28] a Yeah.
[30:29] >> Yeah. 100%. I mean, Rachel, you know, my
[30:31] my main work is really on on teacher
[30:33] trainings. And one of the things I'm
[30:35] seeing the most especially in our 200
[30:38] hour teacher trainings and I teach uh
[30:39] eight trainings a year in three
[30:41] different countries where the students
[30:44] on the training tend to be quite
[30:46] proficient in yoga asa and so instead of
[30:50] teaching how to get into a pose they
[30:52] will just say now go into whatever wild
[30:56] thing warrior 2 if I don't know what
[30:58] that is how am I going to go into that
[31:00] you need to tell me this is what you
[31:02] need to do with your right leg. This is
[31:05] what you need to do with your arm. And
[31:06] and unless you're giving those
[31:08] instructions, you're not teaching. Then
[31:11] you're just you're just choreographing,
[31:12] right? And I really feel
[31:14] >> place there there are definitely some
[31:16] classes that people go to who already
[31:18] know what they're doing in ASA and want
[31:21] >> something set to music, something that
[31:22] has a really rhythmic flow to it.
[31:24] There's a place for it. But for the
[31:26] average people that I teach, yeah,
[31:28] you're going to have to be a guide along
[31:31] the way. and they'll need to actually
[31:33] have to teach different proportions and
[31:34] Yeah, you do. You have to teach.
[31:36] >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, it's a
[31:38] completely different conversation, but
[31:39] I'll just throw the nugget in here
[31:40] because we've kind of gone that way. I I
[31:43] really feel and I'm thinking about this
[31:44] very seriously that on teacher
[31:46] trainings, we actually need a separate
[31:48] model on pedagogy. We need a separate
[31:50] module which tells people these are the
[31:53] different ways that you can teach. Yoga
[31:56] as a discipline has always followed a
[31:58] hierarchy model of teaching. Almost all
[32:01] the yoga texts you know right up until
[32:03] Patabi Joyce, Krishna, Machara and Ayena
[32:05] which is very very recent say that you
[32:08] cannot do yoga without the presence of a
[32:10] teacher and that attempting such could
[32:12] even be dangerous and harmful. So they
[32:14] always want the hierarchy of the teacher
[32:16] in the space. That's not the only way to
[32:19] teach. Latin American models of teaching
[32:21] teach about a two-way system of teaching
[32:23] where the teacher and the student are in
[32:25] equal parts of conversation and
[32:27] discussion throughout a class. And I I
[32:30] just feel as though if we can present to
[32:32] people different ways of teaching, you
[32:34] know, we have very unique and different
[32:36] systems of teaching in Africa. And if
[32:38] you can present to people, there are so
[32:40] many different ways that you can teach,
[32:42] then we are actually producing better
[32:44] teachers. It's a I know it's a
[32:45] completely different discussion from
[32:46] what we're having right now, but it
[32:47] really is something so crucial
[32:50] >> because I do feel like the way that yoga
[32:52] ara has historically been taught by male
[32:55] gurus has been a very straightforward.
[32:58] You know, I'm the expert and I'm handing
[33:00] down from my expertise your instructions
[33:02] and you will follow the instructions.
[33:04] And I think that works for certain
[33:05] people in certain settings for certain
[33:07] personalities. But I do think the way
[33:09] that you're suggesting that's more
[33:11] collaborative has more of what we would
[33:14] stereotypically call feminine energy to
[33:16] it that there is collaboration. Right?
[33:19] I've gone right back to the gender
[33:20] stereotypes. But there is that more
[33:22] collaborative and cooperative approach
[33:24] and we're learning together. I'm
[33:26] learning from you and you're learning
[33:27] from me and I'm adjusting my approach in
[33:29] response to what I see that
[33:31] >> exactly.
[33:32] >> I think it does belong to this
[33:33] conversation is what I'm saying.
[33:35] >> Well, I hope so. I mean I I think what
[33:37] I'm seeing a lot of as well is that
[33:39] people don't have the as clear an idea
[33:42] as they should is maybe the best way to
[33:44] put it of what they are teaching. So in
[33:46] terms of our journey through the pages
[33:49] of history, we are now around
[33:53] recognizable modern times right we're
[33:55] talking about names that those of us who
[33:57] are in modern yoga have heard of whether
[33:59] that's Indra Devi or whether that is
[34:01] Krishna Macharia or his other students
[34:03] including BKSA and so on and so forth.
[34:06] We are now starting to talk about the
[34:07] more recognizable arena schools that
[34:09] have made their way to the west. um any
[34:12] other female figures that really spring
[34:14] to mind in this phase?
[34:16] >> Yeah. So we will then circle back to now
[34:19] thinking about essentially women like
[34:21] me. So once you have the Indra Devi era
[34:24] and you have uh yoga taking off in the
[34:26] western world, it then evolves into
[34:28] various schools of western yoga. You get
[34:31] things like Janmukti yoga, then we get
[34:33] the Kundalini yoga schools. I mean there
[34:36] are all sorts of issues and
[34:37] controversies and problems around a lot
[34:39] of these which we will not go into in
[34:40] this course that's for another day but
[34:43] eventually you know we start to ask the
[34:45] question is what happened to the brown
[34:46] woman and so Gita who is the daughter of
[34:49] BKS crops up as I suppose the most
[34:51] prominent figure there she picks up on a
[34:53] bit of a younger legacy she doesn't
[34:55] really like invent a lot of different
[34:57] asa she does write a book which is aimed
[35:00] at women and yoga for women but I think
[35:02] the invention of asa for women doesn't
[35:05] really come until probably you and I
[35:06] sitting here and and some of the things
[35:08] that you've invented and I've invented
[35:09] and teachers like us have invented but
[35:12] there will be a session where we look at
[35:15] how do brown women relate to their
[35:18] bodies in a period where you know the
[35:20] asa is really being practiced in the
[35:22] west by primarily white women and what
[35:25] about women in other parts of the world
[35:27] what about African women and so for me I
[35:29] mean I have a quite a long background of
[35:32] when I was starting to figure out how do
[35:34] I relate to my body started doing a lot
[35:37] of Middle Eastern dance because that
[35:38] would be the other side of my heritage.
[35:40] So things like uh Persian dance, belly
[35:42] dance, that kind of thing. And those I
[35:45] mean without now going back into the
[35:47] stereotype, those do feel quite feminine
[35:50] and they do feel quite it's a completely
[35:53] different way of moving the body because
[35:55] it's loose.
[35:57] >> It's it's quite felt. It's sensual. And
[36:00] so that is what I look at in that
[36:02] session is is if I was to say what I
[36:05] experience in my body and and what feels
[36:07] and I mean I do a range of physical
[36:09] activities as as do a lot of people you
[36:11] know some of which do feel quite
[36:14] restrictive. I mean like if I'm swimming
[36:15] in a in a swimming pool I I have to
[36:17] follow the line. I can't like I suppose
[36:19] I could completely swim diagonally
[36:21] across the pool but I might irritate a
[36:23] lot of people so I won't do that.
[36:24] >> There would be consequences right just
[36:26] like your rebellious princess. So yeah,
[36:29] we kind of look at those different
[36:31] movement movement forms and also the
[36:33] influence you know a lot of these for
[36:35] movement forms particularly Indian dance
[36:37] baratium dance uh draws heavily on yoga
[36:40] and yoga draws heavily on on aspects of
[36:42] of that dance and that you know there's
[36:45] simple things in those dances which
[36:46] carry through to to a lot of modern
[36:49] dance. So something like the turnout in
[36:50] ballet or the pa that has its origins in
[36:54] classical Persian dance because you do a
[36:56] lot of turnout in that kind of
[36:58] that kind of movement form. So basic
[37:00] movements like that, I mean it's quite
[37:02] fun. We get a little bit, you know,
[37:04] crazy and and really enjoy just feeling
[37:06] into how can the body feel different. I
[37:09] mean, building strength, building
[37:11] muscle, taking your body through ranges
[37:13] of motion. These are all very precise
[37:14] things which we can and must do because
[37:17] we want to be able to get off the toilet
[37:18] when we're 90. But we can also sometimes
[37:22] just have a little bit of fun and not
[37:23] take everything so seriously and not
[37:25] need to move to precision. And so that's
[37:27] what we'll look at in in our penultimate
[37:30] um session of the course.
[37:31] >> Oh, and you've used one of my favorite
[37:33] words too, penultimate. I love it. Any
[37:36] excuse I can get to put that in
[37:37] conversation. Yeah, I love this. I I
[37:40] love all this exploration because there
[37:42] is an aspect of asa that most of us are
[37:45] familiar with that is quite linear,
[37:46] right? We have the sun salutation. We
[37:49] have our, you know, sagittal plane
[37:51] forward and back poses. We have our
[37:52] sideways facing poses that you know some
[37:55] schools of thought are much more precise
[37:57] about the angles and the distances and
[37:59] and you know all of that sort of stuff
[38:01] and some are a little bit looser but
[38:02] there is an element of prescription to
[38:04] it but is that the way that it needs to
[38:06] be
[38:07] >> is that the most suitable way
[38:09] >> to support us in our modern lives. Yeah,
[38:11] I don't know. It depends on our
[38:12] intention when we come to the mat. So I
[38:14] love the fact that you're asking people
[38:16] to ask those questions. What would an
[38:19] ASA asa practice that is supportive for
[38:22] this woman me? What would that look
[38:24] like?
[38:24] >> Exactly. And it also won't be the same
[38:26] all the time, right? I mean, I think
[38:28] that as I get a little bit old, I'm
[38:30] saying a little bit older. I'm getting
[38:31] as old as anybody else is getting.
[38:33] >> You do think that like variety is is
[38:36] probably more beneficial than constantly
[38:40] going back and doing the same thing over
[38:42] and over again. Primarily because and
[38:44] and I've I've been saying this a lot in
[38:46] the last month on which I've been
[38:47] involved in three different teacher
[38:49] trainings. So just take that from where
[38:50] it comes from. Primarily because a lot
[38:52] of the time things can just get a little
[38:54] bit boring. Like you want to you want to
[38:56] mix it up, right? You want to I want to
[38:58] be able to do something different and
[39:00] fun and stimulating and and sometimes
[39:02] it's not about the the range of motion
[39:04] or the body or or exactly how heavy I'm
[39:07] lifting or whatever the case might be.
[39:09] Sometimes it's just about having fun and
[39:11] that is equally beneficial as lifting a
[39:13] heavy weight and making sure that I'm
[39:15] building good glute strength so that I
[39:16] can run tomorrow morning. You know, we
[39:18] can have both.
[39:18] >> Yeah, I we're on the same page. I think
[39:20] that is a very yoga medicine friendly
[39:22] approach of there are things that you
[39:24] want to do well and do consistent
[39:27] consistently, but there is also space
[39:29] for the wonder and the magic and
[39:31] playfulness and [clears throat]
[39:32] exploration and curiosity and and those
[39:35] are equally important places.
[39:38] Yeah,
[39:38] >> exactly.
[39:39] >> All right. So, if we're continuing
[39:41] through our history, we have gotten
[39:43] toward the modern era where Instagram
[39:46] yoga mostly female presenting, mostly
[39:50] white presenting. There's been a little
[39:52] bit of change in that recently, but but
[39:54] that's the overwhelming picture we get
[39:56] of women in yoga. White, thin, athletic,
[40:01] agile, it's physical.
[40:03] >> Yeah. And there are some things missing
[40:05] from that picture, obviously.
[40:08] many many many things and and I think
[40:09] that's what our final session will will
[40:12] consider. It will be more future gazing
[40:14] than it will be kind of wallowing in the
[40:17] current state of events. In that I I
[40:19] really invite participants in in all the
[40:22] courses that I teach, not not just this
[40:23] one, to understand that yoga history is
[40:26] not static,
[40:27] >> to understand that we are actually
[40:31] creating what will be next year and next
[40:34] decade's history of yoga. And so what we
[40:37] do now is important because in 10 years,
[40:40] 15 years, 20 years time, someone is
[40:42] going to look back on what we did and
[40:44] say and then yoga evolved into this
[40:47] >> and that will be what we are doing now.
[40:49] So the last session of all pretty much
[40:51] all the courses I teach is something
[40:53] which is really aimed at allowing
[40:56] participants to think about what should
[40:58] it look like for me in the future. What
[41:00] do I want it to look like? How can I
[41:02] make this my own? How can I put my own
[41:04] stamp on it? I I love that I always hear
[41:07] this from you and I don't remember
[41:08] hearing this from anybody before having
[41:10] these conversations with you that we are
[41:13] creating history right now. And I mean
[41:15] that's true in every aspect of our lives
[41:17] and yet it had never occurred to me
[41:19] before you said it that we are creating
[41:21] future history right now. We aren't just
[41:23] subject to it. We can have a say in it.
[41:25] And I think
[41:26] >> yoga has at least in the west dropped a
[41:29] little from its peak in popularity. And
[41:31] I think for us that could be a really
[41:32] good thing because it means people come
[41:34] aren't coming in with the kind of
[41:36] crystallized expectations that they had
[41:39] when yoga was the cool thing to do, the
[41:41] popular thing to do. And that gives us,
[41:43] I think, a bit more room to actually
[41:45] present things that we think might be
[41:47] helpful that don't have to fit in of
[41:49] what is expected. Yeah, you're not the
[41:52] first person to kind of see that um
[41:54] optimism in in the trend drop off, which
[41:57] yeah, I think it's probably we we need
[41:58] to acknowledge that there is a trend
[42:00] drop off because of various other other
[42:02] modalities. And I don't I also look I
[42:04] think it's a bad thing because I've
[42:06] definitely seen fewer people on my
[42:07] trainings, teacher trainings in
[42:08] particular, which is not not good for my
[42:10] bank account. But at the same time, you
[42:13] know, I I think I see it I'm trying to
[42:15] see it the way you see it that there is
[42:17] this opportunity to almost blank the
[42:20] canvas again and and to say let's try
[42:23] something. And the thing that's coming
[42:25] through so strongly for me particularly
[42:27] in the last year
[42:28] >> where I think we are are really in the
[42:31] kind of post postco era. I don't want to
[42:33] like touch the money and then we all get
[42:35] some sort of disease but you know it
[42:37] feels like we've emerged from that and
[42:39] and it does feel like people are less
[42:42] you know there was a time when people
[42:43] were quite scared what if I'm being
[42:45] accused of cultural appropriation what
[42:47] if I get this wrong what if you know I I
[42:50] don't teach in the exact way that
[42:52] whatever whatever guru told me to teach
[42:53] in
[42:54] >> I think and I hope we are getting past
[42:58] that and we are getting to the point
[43:00] where people are confident enough to
[43:02] say, "I'm teaching this because this is
[43:05] the way I like to teach it.
[43:07] >> It doesn't have to have some great
[43:09] historical significance. It can just be
[43:11] the way you like it.
[43:12] >> I'm teaching."
[43:13] >> Yeah. That's where the specificity pops
[43:14] back in again, right? Like I I know
[43:17] myself, I need 10 minutes of strength
[43:19] work and then because I've worked my
[43:20] muscles, I need to stretch. I don't have
[43:22] to talk about yoga history in that
[43:24] class. I don't have to reference yoga
[43:25] philosophy in that class. I'm not
[43:28] promising the world. I'm just being
[43:29] specific about what you'll get. And I
[43:32] find that helpful and some other people
[43:33] find that helpful. It doesn't have to be
[43:35] all things to all people all the time.
[43:38] >> Absolutely not. And and I mean look, I
[43:41] travel a lot and I practice those
[43:43] classes of yours pretty much all the
[43:45] time when I travel and I get like a bit
[43:46] annoyed when I see there's not a new one
[43:48] up. I'm like, why hasn't she uploaded
[43:50] another one? Come on. What am I supposed
[43:52] to do? But I mean I I think it's a
[43:55] revolutionary idea that you that you've
[43:57] come up with there. And I think that
[43:58] that is the future of yoga, bite-size,
[44:01] something we can do. It's so easy, you
[44:03] know, you hardly ever need equipment.
[44:04] I've done it in hotel rooms. I've done
[44:06] it without a mat. I've done it. You
[44:08] know, that that I think is the point is
[44:10] that I still feel like I'm getting
[44:11] something done. But also the specificity
[44:14] of it. This is what we are doing here.
[44:16] I'm not teaching you
[44:18] >> 5,000 years of history. I'm just
[44:20] teaching this little thing right now.
[44:22] And and maybe it can help you think
[44:24] about something deeper than yourself. Or
[44:26] maybe you just wanted to sweat for 20
[44:27] minutes. Now you've done that.
[44:29] >> Yeah. And I mean that's that's the
[44:30] challenge, isn't it? Is is
[44:33] >> when we set ourselves up with the
[44:34] pressure of I need to reflect my respect
[44:38] for yoga's cultural roots every time I
[44:41] teach.
[44:42] >> Yeah.
[44:43] >> You don't have really room to teach
[44:44] anything anything else really. Whereas I
[44:47] feel like you can be respectful and also
[44:49] say this small snippet that I'm offering
[44:52] is just this. It's not the everything.
[44:54] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
[44:56] >> Yeah. Hopefully.
[44:57] >> And my challenge to students who who do
[44:59] say something along the lines of I want
[45:02] to show that I am honoring the roots or
[45:04] respecting the roots. My my follow-up
[45:07] question is always which roots.
[45:10] >> Which ones are you trying to respect or
[45:12] honor? Yoga is multifaceted,
[45:14] multi-storied. There isn't a single
[45:17] origin and there isn't a single thread.
[45:20] That's fine. I'm not saying now come and
[45:22] tell me about all the different roots.
[45:24] But you could just say what I'm trying
[45:26] to do here is teach some asa that were
[45:29] codified about 150 years ago. There's
[45:31] nothing wrong. You don't have to say
[45:33] that. But if you really want to say
[45:34] something, say the thing that's the most
[45:36] honest to what you're doing. And so I I
[45:39] find that that really gives people an
[45:40] anchor point. And and particularly as
[45:43] most of the teachers, let's be honest,
[45:44] most of our teachers today are women and
[45:47] most of the students they are teaching
[45:48] to are women. And really there's not a
[45:51] lot of link between women now and women
[45:54] doing anything involved in this culture
[45:55] historically. So
[45:57] >> we have to acknowledge that as well and
[45:59] say right the the the idea of women in
[46:02] yoga. It's now it's what we're doing
[46:03] right now. We are the woman in yoga.
[46:06] >> So that also gives people a sense of of
[46:08] belonging and being part of it and
[46:10] understanding that what we do in these
[46:12] rooms online in you know studio spaces
[46:15] wherever we are this is it. We're doing
[46:18] it. We're creating it. So, let's take
[46:20] some ownership of it and and let's think
[46:22] it through carefully.
[46:23] >> Let's have fun. I think I'm now in my
[46:25] fun era as well. So, you know, I feel
[46:28] like [laughter] we we need to have fun
[46:29] about it
[46:30] >> and not take it that seriously.
[46:33] >> I mean, seriously, but not that
[46:34] seriously.
[46:35] >> I think there's a difference between
[46:36] respect and and and seriousness. You
[46:39] know, treating something as important,
[46:40] but but holding it such a fragile grip
[46:43] that if you touch it the wrong way, it
[46:45] will shatter. there's room for curiosity
[46:47] and exploration and fun and different
[46:49] perspectives and different takes on
[46:50] things hopefully.
[46:51] >> And I think that's also part of it is
[46:53] we're teaching a lot of content. You
[46:54] know, a lot of my content is quite
[46:56] academic because that's my slant on
[46:58] things. It's historical. It's I'm almost
[47:01] like at the point where I'm describing
[47:02] it as a combination between like lived
[47:04] experience, personal histories. You
[47:06] know, I've done a lot of work on my own
[47:08] kind of ancestral lineages as far as I
[47:10] can get with the little that I know
[47:13] >> as well as, you know, I I'm not claiming
[47:15] that I only trace my history to the
[47:18] Indian subcontinent. I I will say over
[47:20] and over again, I'm an African. I was
[47:22] born here and I experience life as an
[47:25] African. So, I want to bring that in as
[47:28] well. that that is a huge part of who I
[47:30] am. And so it's it's a combination of
[47:32] that, the academic stuff, the fun stuff,
[47:35] the physical stuff. It's I'm trying to
[47:37] bring a lot of things together and and
[47:39] just to say to people whatever the
[47:41] subject matter. So this course is women
[47:42] in yoga. The subject matter is almost
[47:45] subsidiary to the fact that we're trying
[47:46] to have an experience together and learn
[47:48] something from each other. And that to
[47:50] me is the most important thing.
[47:52] >> Yeah. Yeah, I think you may not be the
[47:54] teacher with all the answers, but you
[47:55] are a teacher who always brings really
[47:57] good questions.
[47:59] >> I try. I try.
[48:01] >> Right. So, the course that you're doing
[48:02] for yoga medicine is the live online
[48:04] women in yoga teacher training. It's
[48:06] worth 12 hours of continued education.
[48:09] It kicks off November 5th and runs
[48:11] through to December 10th. And we will
[48:14] put a link in the show notes for people
[48:15] who want to check out the course. It
[48:17] sounds, as always with your stuff, it
[48:19] sounds like a fascinating journey and
[48:20] probably will take people in some
[48:22] unexpected directions.
[48:25] I hope so. Yeah, I really look forward
[48:26] to seeing how people experience this and
[48:28] also how they engage with the content.
[48:30] It's it's not a long course. It's 6
[48:32] weeks as you mentioned, 2 hours live
[48:34] online. I I encourage people to come
[48:36] live, but of course, you know, time
[48:37] zones are a thing. So, and because yoga
[48:40] medicine is so far reaching, of course,
[48:42] you can catch up on recordings. And I I
[48:45] think it will be a good kind of uh
[48:47] pallet cleanser to end off 2026 because
[48:50] we we resume in in early next year with
[48:53] um the history of yoga course again
[48:55] which will be you know that that is good
[48:58] dense solid material which which which I
[49:02] think really lays the foundation for
[49:03] people to to get a solid understanding
[49:05] of of yoga as it's moved through time
[49:08] and space and people and cultures. So, I
[49:11] think this is a nice way to kind of open
[49:12] that door. If if even if you're even
[49:14] curious, if you even think I'd like to
[49:15] know something a little bit about about
[49:17] something about yoga's history, this is
[49:19] a really good kind of way to step into
[49:21] it.
[49:22] >> I love it. Brilliant. Fose, thank you so
[49:24] much for taking the time to come and
[49:26] talk to us again. I always have fun
[49:27] talking to you.
[49:29] >> Thank you, Rachel. Thanks for having me.
[49:30] [music]
[49:31] >> Thank you.
[49:38] >> [music]
[49:38] >> Thanks for listening to Yoga Medicine.
[49:40] If you liked the show, be sure to
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[50:05] [music]
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[50:09] medicine community.
[50:11] The content of this podcast is not
[50:13] medical advice and [music] is not meant
[50:14] to replace medical care. Please consult
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[50:18] what is best for your unique healthcare
[50:20] needs. [music]