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Inspiration

Why We Keep Recreating the Pain We Swore We'd Avoid

Ten Percent Happier
Ten Percent Happier
Nov 2, 2026
9 min de lectura

De 10% Happier

Ver · 8

A psychiatrist sits in a hiding place in Burundi, a small country most Americans could not find on a map, and asks herself how she got there. The answer she reaches is not about geography or bad luck. It is about a night in Baltimore nearly two decades earlier, a father she thought had died instantly, and a year of her own life that her memory had quietly deleted. In a conversation on the 10% Happier podcast, Dr. Suzan Song, a Harvard- and Stanford-trained psychiatrist and humanitarian researcher, lays out how unprocessed experience gets replayed in adult life, why the brain does this, and what it takes to find the script before it finds you again. The talk is built around a phrase she coined, "chasing the illusion of stability," which host Dan Harris said in the opening minutes explained much of his own anxiety about family, work, and the world.

Leer · 7 secciones

How does a lost year turn into a repeated scene?

Song's story starts with a family business. When she was 15, her family owned a liquor store outside Baltimore. One robbery went too far: her father was carjacked in what was prosecuted as an attempted murder, and he later died. At the time, she told Harris, she did not think it had affected her much. Nobody in the house went to therapy. The response she remembers is a teenager's response: keep grades up, keep the activities going, get to college, build a life stable enough to protect her from something she could not name.

"I worked my three jobs. I went to college, med school, grad school, all the things," Song told Dan Harris on the 10% Happier podcast, describing the stability she built as a teenager.

That strategy worked for a long time. Then, nearly two decades later, she was in Burundi doing research on intergenerational stress among former child soldiers. In her third year there, one of the former child soldiers she was working with turned on her and threatened her life, and she went into hiding. Sitting in that room, she realized she had, in a sense, recreated the original scene, except this time the violence was aimed at her.

The most revealing part of the story is what she discovered while writing the book. For years she had believed her father was murdered on the night of the attack. Her agent asked her to say more about him, and she went looking. Her father died before the internet, so she searched what she could and found a small Baltimore Sun article that gave dates. The attack came a full year before he died. Song asked her mother how that gap made sense. Her mother said he had come home after the assault and lived in the family house. "You played violin for him, you made dinner for him," Song recalled her mother saying. Song had no memory of that year at all.

That gap is the spine of the conversation. A year of her life, including the most intimate time with her father, had been removed from her own record. Song's read on it is clinical and generous. "Our brains do something very protective for us," she said. The problem is what happens to the material the brain has protected. "When we never really address what had happened, when we have these fragmented stories, these fragmented narratives," she said, "it has a way to repeat itself."

What is repetition compulsion, and why do we do it?

Repetition compulsion is the term Song uses for the pattern in which people live their lives in cycles, reenacting an earlier painful dynamic without recognizing it. The mechanism is not masochism, and Song is careful about that distinction. As a teenager, she said, her psyche did not have the resources to take in the hopelessness, fear, or sadness. She could not touch down on those feelings, so she over-functioned instead. Years later the unprocessed material found a way back into her life.

Harris asked the obvious follow-up: why would anyone recreate a painful situation on purpose, even subconsciously? Song's answer is direct. "We want mastery," she said. "We just want control over the situation, because we didn't have control back then." The reenactment is an attempt to finish the scene differently. "So I would have the ability to stop the violence, to have a different ending," she said of her Burundi realization.

She offers examples that make the pattern recognizable outside a war zone. A woman who vows never to marry an alcoholic, because her father was one, ends up with a man who is not an alcoholic but has a work addiction, and she spends years trying to win his love the way she tried to win her father's. A C-suite executive who has been second-best in three consecutive jobs traces the feeling back to a family that always focused on her brother's addiction. In each case, Song says, the person does not see the pattern until they map the experiences side by side and ask what is driving them.

Why does the brain keep rehearsing the wound?

The conversation returns repeatedly to the idea that the mind is organized around prediction and that instability is a design problem for humans. Harris frames the larger issue as an urge for normalcy and a wish to control outcomes, and Song builds on it. Life changes constantly, but the human mind wants permanence. Repetition compulsion, she suggests, becomes a kind of baseline of stability: even a painful script is predictable, and predictability feels safer than the open-ended uncertainty of a new situation.

This is why "chasing the illusion of stability" is such a sharp phrase. People try to build a permanent order against a world that does not hold still. The strategy can look like success, as it did for Song's teenage self, and still leave a person exposed the moment the structure cracks. Harris said the phrase described his own anxiety almost exactly, which is why the episode leans on it.

How do you find the subconscious scripts running your life?

Song's method is practical rather than mystical. Identify the pattern, then identify the feelings that were ignored when it began. Ask what role you are protecting right now and whether that role is under threat. The episode's shorthand, as described in its own notes, is to follow the resentment. Resentment often marks the place where a script is still running: a sense that you are again second, again overlooked, again doing more than your share.

She also stresses that the patterns are usually invisible from inside, and that this is normal rather than a personal failing. Memory itself is a case in point. Song says memory is reconstruction rather than video playback, and she points to how people who lived through the same event often remember it differently. Each person's account is assembled from what they could take in at the time, what they have since rehearsed, and what they needed to believe. That is why a single narrative, held without examination, can quietly govern a life.

Can you rewrite a script you never remember writing?

Song's answer is yes, but not by simply reframing the story in a more positive light. She describes a sequence that begins with safety. A narrative cannot be updated until a person feels safe enough to look at it. Only then can cognitive restructuring do its work. Song says plainly that reframing is important, and she is also clear that it is not the whole process.

For the rewrite itself, she points to the research of Herminia Ibarra on how people change roles and identities. Ibarra's work, as Song describes it, emphasizes trying things out: people iterate, experiment with new roles, and change what they do and how they are responsible within an identity. The shift in identity comes through action as much as through insight. For someone stuck in an old role, the move is to test a different one in small, reversible steps.

Song's framing of rewriting runs on a simple order: first safety, then the pattern, then the feeling that was ignored, then a new way to act on it.

She also gives a concrete example of how a person might act differently inside a familiar dynamic, such as the executive who keeps being second-best. Options exist: she can talk directly with her husband or her employer, name what she needs, and change the terms of the role instead of silently absorbing it again.

What does resilience look like beyond bouncing back?

Song resists the popular version of resilience. "I always wonder, like, bouncing back to what?" she told Harris. For her, resilience is less about returning to a previous state and more about engaging with the world after instability has changed you. The goal is not to be unaffected by storms. It is to keep building a life that includes them.

She connects this to what the episode calls the Three Friends of Winter: narratives, rituals, and purpose, which the episode ties to an Asian art motif. Song's comments on purpose are direct. "Purpose gives us direction," she said, and she adds that people often already live out their purpose in daily ways they do not name. On rituals, she observes that people have routines they perform every day, and that deliberately including more of them in personal life can give structure when life loses it.

Her cross-cultural point is also worth taking seriously. Song observes that Americans tend to individualize suffering, treating it as a private matter to be solved alone. Many other traditions place pain inside relationships and communities. The relational self, she suggests, is a stronger container for the storms every life contains than the isolated individual trying to manage everything alone.

Where to go from here

If the conversation lands for you, start with a small, specific exercise. Write out three or four recurring situations in your work or family life where you ended up in the same role, the same fight, or the same feeling of being second. Next to each one, note the earliest time you remember feeling that way. Then look for the resentment. It will tell you where the old script is still active.

Song's book, Why We Suffer and How We Heal, goes further into the clinical and humanitarian research behind these ideas. The 10% Happier episode itself, hosted by Dan Harris, is the best place to hear Song tell the Baltimore and Burundi stories in her own voice, with the pauses and self-correction that make them land. Her central point holds up without the stories: the script you swore you would never repeat is probably still running, and the way out is to name it, feel what it was built to protect, and try a different ending.

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Transcript

[0:03] Dan: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Ten  Percent Happier podcast. I'm your host,  

[0:07] Dan Harris. In preparing for today's  episode, I came across a phrase, uh,  

[0:13] coined, uh, by my guest today, and the phrase  is, "Chasing the illusion of stability." I'm  

[0:19] gonna say that again. "Chasing the illusion of  stability." When I read that, I realized that  

[0:26] pretty much explains all of my anxiety, uh, about  my family, about my work life, about the world.

[0:32] I just kinda w- wanna be able to  control things. Uh, but that, of course,  

[0:37] is not how the world works, and so my guest  today is gonna talk about how we can have a  

[0:41] different relationship with uncertainty, with  change, uh, which all ladders up, of course,  

[0:47] to resiliency. My guest is Suzanne Song. She's  a Harvard and Stanford-trained psychiatrist,  

[0:53] and she's got a new book, which is  called Why We Suffer and How We Heal.

[0:57] Dr. Song, welcome to the show.

[0:59] Suzan: Thank you for having me.

[1:00] Dan: It's a pleasure. So your, your, uh, work,  at least in this regard, uh, on, in the book,  

[1:05] seems like a classic case, and you'll correct me  if I'm wrong, but it seems like a classic case of,  

[1:10] uh, research as me-search, as I often hear, um,  from researchers in, in the psychology space.

[1:16] And it seems to be rooted in your own personal  experience, starting with some really hard things  

[1:23] that happened with your dad when you were younger.  Are you comfortable walking us through that story?

[1:28] Suzan: Sure, yeah, and I think you're right.  It was probably research as me-search,  

[1:32] though of course, I didn't know that at the time.

[1:34] So I'm a psychiatrist and a social science  researcher. I do policy and research in  

[1:39] humanitarian settings. So I was working,  doing a study in Burundi with former child  

[1:44] soldiers on intergenerational stress.  And I think it was my third year there,  

[1:48] and I essentially had a scene where  one of my for- former child soldiers  

[1:54] had turned on me and threatened me for  my life, so I had to go into hiding.

[1:59] And I was sitting and hiding in this room in  Burundi, and I thought to myself, like, "How  

[2:03] the hell did I get here?" I am a Korean American  woman now in hiding for my life from former child  

[2:10] soldiers in a small country that nobody really  knows. And the first realization that I had was,  

[2:19] "Oh, it's, it's Dad." So when I was 15 years  old, um, my family owned a liquor store outside  

[2:26] of Baltimore, and one of the robberies had  gone too far, so my father was assaulted.

[2:32] He was, um, carjacked in an attempted  murder, and he later died. So as a teenager,  

[2:40] I didn't really think it affected me that  much, honestly. I-- This was a time when I  

[2:46] didn't go to therapy. I didn't really talk to  anybody about it. You just kind of keep going,  

[2:51] and the thing that I knew I  needed was just stability.

[2:54] Like, I needed to keep my grades up, to keep doing  my activities, so I could get to college and just  

[2:58] keep working and achieving, and that would lead  to a very stable life that would protect me in  

[3:05] some way from what, I don't really know. And so  I did. I worked my three jobs. I went to college,  

[3:11] med school, grad school, all the things, and  it really wasn't until this almost two decades  

[3:17] later that I'm in Burundi, and I realize I had  essentially recreated another scene of violence.

[3:24] This time it was towards me, and so now I  would have the ability to stop the violence,  

[3:30] to have a different ending  And I think that really,  

[3:36] um, led me to a lot of this work and trying  to understand, like, what is it? How do we  

[3:41] people actually not just thrive and not just  survive, but how do we engage in the world?

[3:48] Like, what happens to us after we experience  major instabilities, and how do we connect the  

[3:54] dots of all the experiences in our lives, um, to  create something of meaning and understanding?

[3:59] Dan: First of all, I'm really sorry  about what happened with your dad. I  

[4:02] know it was a long time ago, but that's  a horrible thing to happen to anybody,  

[4:05] and especially, uh, for you as  a, a, at such a formative age.

[4:09] I'm curious to, to learn a little bit more about  how that searing experience, which clearly for  

[4:16] very justifiable reasons, you, you didn't fully  metabolize at the time, how exactly that lands  

[4:22] you in Burundi. Um, I believe you have a term  that you use in the book, repetition compulsion.

[4:29] Suzan: Yeah.

[4:29] Dan: Um, is, is that the apt term, and, and,  um, yeah, what, what should we know about it?

[4:36] Suzan: Yeah, so essentially, it's when we live our  life in cycles. We have these patterns. You know,  

[4:43] when I was a teenager, my brain, my psyche  didn't have the resources and the capacity to,  

[4:49] like, actually understand what's going  on. So I couldn't really touch down on  

[4:54] the hopelessness or the fear or  the sadness. And so I just focus  

[5:00] on over-functioning and not really  understanding what had happened.

[5:05] My father did pass away. He w- what I found out  actually only recently in, in writing this book,  

[5:12] I had always thought that he was murdered. When  I was writing this book, my agent actually said,  

[5:18] "You know, tell me more about your father." And  so I went back, and I started looking up i- if I  

[5:22] could. I mean, he died pre-internet, so  I was trying to find anything I could.

[5:26] And I found a small Baltimore Sun article,  and it gave me the dates. And actually,  

[5:32] his as- uh, attempted kidnapping was  a full year later Uh, before he had  

[5:38] actually passed away. And I thought he had  died immediately. And so I asked my mother,  

[5:42] I said, "How do you make sense of this?  There's a whole year gap in between."

[5:47] And she said, "No, no, he came home after  the assault. He lived in our house. Like,  

[5:51] you played violin for him,  you made dinner for him." Now,  

[5:54] I did not remember that entire year. That's  all out of my memory. And so the memory, like,  

[6:00] our brains do something very protective for  us. The problem is, is when we never really  

[6:05] address what had happened, when we have these  fragmented stories, these fragmented narratives,  

[6:10] and we don't have a way of understanding  what's happened, it has a way to repeat itself.

[6:14] That same theme will repeat itself  subconsciously, unconsciously in the future,  

[6:20] in other aspects of our life. So for me, it  was recreating another scene. But this happens  

[6:25] all the time. You know what? It's not uncommon  that I'll have someone who comes and they say,  

[6:30] you know, it's, say it's a woman who  says, "I will never marry anyone with  

[6:34] an alcohol addiction because my father was an  addict, and I don't want to deal with that."

[6:40] And so she marries, and it's, the guy is not  an alcoholic, but it ends up that he has a work  

[6:45] addiction. And she has the same feelings, and  she's trying to win back his love in the same  

[6:50] way that she did her father, right? We all have  these pa- Even in the workplace, this happens. So  

[6:55] I was working with someone who is kind of C-suite,  and this is her third job where she's second-best.

[7:01] And I asked her, "Look, what is the pattern  here? When's the first time you experienced  

[7:05] this being second?" She kept saying it  was second-best, and her brother had an  

[7:09] addiction when she was growing up, and so  the family always focused on the brother,  

[7:13] and so she always felt second-best. And now  here it is playing out in her workplace.

[7:18] So it's these patterns that we have,  and we don't quite understand them,  

[7:22] as I didn't understand the relationship  between Berenide and my father. We have  

[7:26] to sit back and like actually even like  map out the experiences to say like,  

[7:31] "Is there a pattern here, and what's driving  that?" And oftentimes it's repetition compulsion.

[7:37] Dan: So why do we do it? I know it's  subconscious, but do we do it as a  

[7:41] way to recreate the conditions so that we  can finally deal with them successfully?

[7:45] Suzan: Yeah, we want mastery. We just  want control over the situ- Because we  

[7:50] didn't have control back then. And  so I couldn't engage with or find  

[7:57] mastery over the helplessness that I  might have felt as a child, the fear.

[8:01] And so we create a very similar environment  and scene, but this time around we think, oh,  

[8:06] I'll control it now. Either I will find  safety or I'll make this person love me,  

[8:11] or I will prove to everyone that I'm a good  person. I'll show them. And so the problem is,  

[8:18] is that that rarely is the case. We never  really get the outcome that we're wanting,  

[8:23] and it just repeats itself  until we cause awareness.

[8:26] We bring the unconscious to the  conscious, so we can say, "Okay,  

[8:29] there is a pattern here. Let  me pause and think about this."

[8:31] Dan: What is the connection between this  repetition compulsion, in your case,  

[8:36] violence against your father,  subconsciously creating a situation  

[8:40] where there's violence directed at you,  or threats of violence directed at you?

[8:43] What is the connection between this  very human repetition compulsion and  

[8:49] the very human desire for stability, even  though stability is not really on offer?

[8:53] Suzan: Our brains are predictive machines. Like,  

[8:57] we want to know what's going on and what's  going to ha- we like the foresight. We want  

[9:02] to be able to strategize and say,  like, "This is going to happen."

[9:05] And so the repetition compulsion almost  becomes Like our baseline of stability,  

[9:11] right? So we say, "Okay, we know that  there's going to be... We know this pattern,  

[9:15] so we're gonna make the pattern happen  again." That's our form of stability.  

[9:20] On the surface, on the outside, we say  to ourselves, "This is the instability.

[9:24] How can I be in this relationship again where I'm  married and it's, like, someone with an addiction?  

[9:29] I told myself I would never do that again."  And so we say, like, we're tired of all these  

[9:33] life instabilities, but actually it's our brain  wanting to not have a predictive error. Our brain  

[9:39] is wanting to know, like, what is predictable,  what can I control, what can I manage?

[9:45] And so it's gonna keep giving you the same lesson,  and you have to just learn it at some point.

[9:51] Dan: We're gonna come back to how we can deal  with, uh, repetition compulsion. Um, but let  

[9:55] me just step back to your, your core  thesis, which is, as I said at, in,  

[9:59] at the beginning, like this, this  chasing the illusion of stability.

[10:04] I've said this before on the show, so I apologize  to loyal listeners who- who've heard me say this,  

[10:08] but it just seems like a fundamental design  flaw in the species that we live in a world  

[10:15] of unremitting change, where stability  is, is truly, as I said, not on offer,  

[10:22] uh, at least not for an extended period  of time, and yet we want it so badly.

[10:26] How do we explain this, this tragic mismatch?

[10:29] Suzan: I think a lot of it is because we have been  groomed, society has groomed us since childhood  

[10:37] to thinking that stability, one, is possible,  like there is a state of permanent stability,  

[10:42] which we know is not true, but also that stability  is success. And so we're told at a very early age,  

[10:49] "This is the school you should go to, the grades  you should get, the person you should marry.

[10:53] We should get this house. This is the job you  should have, and make sure it's a stable job,  

[10:57] because that will secure you for the future in  some way." And that is the social narrative that  

[11:03] we're all absorbing, so that if success  is stability, it's supposed to protect  

[11:08] you from the major life challenges. And of  course, we know that's just not the case.

[11:13] But if that's the foundation, then any  time some major disruption happens, like  

[11:19] illness or divorce or our kids aren't doing  well, we almost want to get away from it as  

[11:25] fast as possible. So we want to just get over  it and just keep on moving and just go past  

[11:30] it. But then we miss this opportunity  to really say, "Well, wait a minute.

[11:36] What is our natural way of engaging with hard  things?" Like, we all have very individualized  

[11:42] ways of coping through things. So what is  that for us? 'Cause if we learn that now,  

[11:48] that will help us the next time something  major comes along, and it will. So I think  

[11:54] the more that we understand that stability  really is an illusion, the more we can take  

[12:00] a step back and say, "Okay, given that,  how do we actually engage in the world?"

[12:05] Like, I work with, in refugee, um, camps,  and I'm always surprised because people can  

[12:12] be displaced and living in a refugee camp. They  can also love. They can laugh. They can learn  

[12:18] new skills. They can contribute to the community.  So how is that? They're living in these times of  

[12:25] chronic instability and unrest, and yet they  can still engage meaningfully in the world.

[12:31] Like, I think that is beautiful,  and I think it's very compelling.  

[12:34] That's actually why I wrote the book.  Like, how were they able to do that?

[12:37] Dan: If you are anxious about the upcoming  midterm elections in the United States,  

[12:42] you are not alone. I certainly feel that way. So,  uh, we are gonna do what I always advise people.

[12:48] We're gonna never worry alone. We're gonna do  that together. I've got two live video guided  

[12:54] meditation and Q&A sessions coming up, one  on Election Day on November 3rd and the other  

[12:59] on November 4th. These are available to anyone,  whether you're a subscriber to my app or not. The  

[13:05] one on Tuesday, on the 3rd, I'll be doing with  the great meditation teacher, Vinnie Ferraro.

[13:10] Again, we'll meditate with all of you and  then take your questions. And then the,  

[13:14] the one on the day after, I'll be doing that one  solo. Like I said, this is totally free to anyone,  

[13:19] whether you're a subscriber to my app or  not. All you have to do if you're not a  

[13:23] subscriber is sign up for my newsletter at  danharris.com, and then we will send you  

[13:28] the info to join me and our community on  Zoom on November 3rd and on November 4th.

[13:34] It's free. It's in the afternoon. It'll be  a great way to calm your nervous system.  

[13:40] We'll see you there. When girls have access to  education, they gain more than knowledge. They  

[13:44] gain the confidence, opportunity, and power to  shape their own futures. Guatemalan leader Lydia  

[13:50] Ochi is opening pathways for indigenous girls  to access global education, helping young people  

[13:56] discover new possibilities while remaining rooted  in the strength of their cultures and identities.

[14:01] Her work shows how expanding opportunities  for girls can strengthen families,  

[14:05] uplift communities, and shape a brighter future.  

[14:08] Hosted by the climber and environmental advocate  Alex Honnold, Planet Visionaries celebrates the  

[14:14] leaders whose work is creating meaningful  change that can ripple across generations.

[14:19] In partnership

[14:19] Suzan: with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative,  

[14:22] this is Planet Visionaries. Watch or  listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[14:26] Dan: I, I have this memory of, uh, I was not  a humanitarian. I was a journalist and spent  

[14:33] a lot of time in conflict zones in my  younger years post 9/11. And I remember  

[14:37] being in Ramallah in the West Bank during  the Second Intifada, so this would be 2002.

[14:43] Uh, and the Israeli army invaded,  

[14:46] um And, uh, I was not embedded with the Army, I  was actually embedded with a civilian population,  

[14:54] staying in a house in Ramallah with, um, a  bunch of other journalists. And, you know,  

[15:00] just bombs going off on our street and tanks  rolling down the streets, and it was super gnarly.

[15:05] And, uh, at some point, there was a, an eight-hour  ceasefire called, and everybody went shopping.

[15:14] Suzan: Mm.

[15:14] Dan: It's like the, the urge for normalcy-

[15:18] Suzan: Mm-hmm ...

[15:18] Dan: just reasserted itself-

[15:21] Suzan: Mm-hmm ...

[15:21] Dan: in such a powerful way.

[15:24] Suzan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and sometimes...  Look, and we need that sometimes. Like in,  

[15:27] in every humanitarian setting, one of the first  things we do for children is we get schools open.

[15:33] We build schools to get kids back into a s- sense  of normalcy as soon as possible. So we do need,  

[15:38] like humans need a baseline of  security and stability. Like,  

[15:42] that's foundational. But then beyond that, I think  a lot of what... You know, a lot of our suffering,  

[15:49] I think, is due to this desire for life  not being how we want it to be, right?

[15:55] It's this disconnect between, like, where our  reality is and what we want our life to be.  

[16:00] And normally, we want our life to be stable,  'cause then we can control it. We can predict  

[16:05] what's gonna happen. And as we see right now,  I mean, look at right now, we're, we've got,  

[16:10] like, AI threatening everyone's jobs. We have  climate crises, a political turmoil going on.

[16:16] I mean, we are living right now in times of  chronic unrest. And so I often find myself saying,  

[16:22] like, "Ah, I can't wait for life to be  stable again." Yes. But then we, like,  

[16:28] put off living. Like, we can still- Yes ... learn  to engage in, in the world. And, and so these  

[16:33] examples like the, of yours, in these war zones,  and the people I've worked with, I don't know.

[16:38] I feel like if you wanna learn something,  you learn from the most extreme,  

[16:43] and these are people who are living in so-  some of the most extreme Settings possible,  

[16:50] and they're still able to thrive and engage.

[16:52] Dan: There's s- I don't know who said this. I  just heard this. S- you know, I, I, it ... After  

[16:57] hosting a show for more than 10 years, I can't  remember who said what to me, but something like,  

[17:02] "The problem isn't the problem, the problem  is your relationship to the problem."

[17:06] Suzan: Mm.

[17:06] Dan: Um, and is, is, is that  apropos in this context?

[17:09] Suzan: There is the event of what's happened,  and then there's how we live with that event,  

[17:15] right? And so suffering, there is some  suffering that there's no amount of,  

[17:21] like, mindset change that's  gonna make it any better. Like,  

[17:23] I work with survivors of torture, trafficking,  hostage, like that's human rights violations.

[17:29] It's just suffering, pure and simple. But  then there are the more kind of common  

[17:35] ordinary stressors that we all go through,  like the breakups and the job loss and the,  

[17:40] you know, normal life ruptures.  And that suffering is oftentimes  

[17:44] the gap between what's going on right  now and just what we want. Like the  

[17:49] world is not as we want it to be,  and that's causing the suffering.

[17:52] And that should hopefully give us a lot of,  

[17:56] um, hope because it means that we have a lot  more agency in our suffering. I think so much,  

[18:02] so many times we think like our despair is  just, "Oh, things are so bad and that's just  

[18:06] how it is." But actually, we do actually have  a lot of control over whether we not we suffer.

[18:12] Dan: So, so the book is called, uh, and  I mentioned this in the intro of course,  

[18:16] but the book is called Why We Suffer  and How We Heal. So I think we've,  

[18:20] unless you disagree, I feel like we've  pretty firmly established why we suffer.

[18:25] Suzan: Mm.

[18:25] Dan: Um, but the bulk of the book is really,  

[18:28] um, focused on how we heal. And your concept  is that there are these three ways to change  

[18:36] our relationships to uncertainty, and you  call them the three friends of winter.

[18:42] What does that mean?

[18:43] Suzan: Yeah. So these are the tools  that I've seen people across cultures  

[18:48] and contexts that they have called upon,  um, to find ways to en- engage in the  

[18:54] world with a sense of mastery, uh, among  the chronic instability. So narratives are  

[19:00] essentially the stories and explanations we have  about our reality of what's going on in the world.

[19:05] They are the logic kind of operating system  that underlies all of our thoughts, our actions.  

[19:13] So narratives are useful 'cause they give  us insight. Insight isn't enough. We need  

[19:18] something for behavioral change.  So the rituals come in because  

[19:21] rituals embody our insights into  practice. They give us movement.

[19:27] They connect us to ourselves, they connect  us to people across time and space. And then  

[19:33] purpose is what gives us direction. So purpose is  something of meaning that's larger than ourselves  

[19:40] that tell us how to use our time, our resources,  and our energy. And I call them the three friends  

[19:47] because one of the things that I've learned in  my work abroad is that healing is relational.

[19:55] It's not in ... Like, Americans, we're very,  very individualized in our suffering and in  

[20:01] our healing. Like, if, if someone loses a,  a loved one, they get a week off of work,  

[20:08] they're told to go talk to a psychiatrist or  a therapist, doing one-on-one insight therapy,  

[20:14] and then to come back and to be  productive, like be good now.

[20:18] And it's very individualized. What I see  in other contexts is that healing is very  

[20:23] much relational. It's through a sense of  belonging. It's through being needed. It's  

[20:28] through mattering to another person.  Um, and I think we lose out on some of  

[20:33] that. The three friends of winter in  and of itself is an Asian art motif.

[20:36] Um, they're bamboo, pine, and  plum blossom. And so these are  

[20:41] these three very hearty winter plants that  thrive in the harshest of environments.

[20:47] Dan: Winter for, in this analogy  is, uh, hard times, instability,  

[20:51] and these are our three friends, meaning  they're three ways to, to weather,  

[20:56] uh, the various inevitable, unavoidable  storms that happen in every life.

[21:01] Um, and again, they are narrative, ritual, and  purpose. Let's go through them. When you say  

[21:06] narrative is a friend of winter, in other words  a, a, a tool we can lean on as a way to deal in  

[21:12] a more supple and sophisticated way with life's  vexations, what do you mean specifically? Like,  

[21:18] we can, we can tell a different  story that's more em- empowering?

[21:21] Suzan: I'll give you an example.  So I commonly see in my practice,  

[21:25] um- Mothers with young children who are  also working full-time and, you know,  

[21:31] doing all the everything. Early in the family  life cycle, right? It's, it's a hard time for  

[21:36] the whole family. And they'll often come  in saying, "I know that I need time off.

[21:41] I know I need just a break to go one hour  at the gym. I know that's what I need,  

[21:46] and my partner will help me with  that. Like, they're encouraging that,  

[21:50] and yet I feel like I'm just not a  good parent. I feel really guilty if  

[21:55] I take that time for myself." Like, this is  extremely common. And so that's hard because  

[21:59] the narrative that she's telling herself  is she understands the logic of it, right?

[22:05] I know that I need to take care of myself in order  to take care of my child. She understands what she  

[22:09] needs to do. Like, I know I want to go to the  gym or have an hour break for myself But the  

[22:15] guilt is getting in the way. Well, what's that  guilt about? And oftentimes it's this internal  

[22:21] script that she has absorbed from culture, from  society, from the way she was growing up, about  

[22:28] what a mother should, what a good mother should  be, what she should look like, how she should act.

[22:32] She should be self-sacrificing. This,  like, martyrdom of motherhood. And so  

[22:36] that internal script is running her life. It's  like someone else wrote this script for her,  

[22:42] and now she's playing it out, and she's  confused 'cause it's not working for her.  

[22:46] We all have these internal scripts of what  does it mean to be, you know, good at work?

[22:51] For me, like, what does it mean to be  a good physician or a good, you know,  

[22:54] parent? And once we understand what our  internal scripts are, then we can say,  

[23:01] "Okay, is this working for me? Is this what I  really think? W- what do I think a good mother  

[23:05] should be?" And we can even, like, write that  out to start rewriting some of the narrative,  

[23:11] to reclaim some of our, our own actions  and our own, you know, values and beliefs.

[23:16] Dan: How can we start to... Because I  feel like there are probably seven or  

[23:20] eight subconscious scripts, um, that are  running in my brain, uh, that are making  

[23:25] me do stupid sh*t on the regulars. Like, so how  can we figure out what these scripts might be?

[23:31] Suzan: One is to first just notice  when you're feeling that, you know,  

[23:37] like, we all have this, like  the pang of resentment or anger.

[23:41] Like, whenever you feel, like, a big emotion  that seems disproportionate to what's going  

[23:46] on. So if we're really, like, resentful that, you  know, somebody at work said something about us or  

[23:52] they're requiring more of our time, like, what  is that about? And is there some threat to our  

[23:58] identity? Is there some role that is being  threatened right now, and what is that role?

[24:05] And we write it out. So maybe it's, you know,  worker or whatever it is. We write that out  

[24:11] so we can start to understand what is this role  about? Who wrote this? Where'd I get this from,  

[24:17] and what do I want to be like?  I mean, we think about who am I,  

[24:20] but who do you want to be? And that will give us  some direction to how we wanna live our lives.

[24:27] Dan: So it, it really goes back to, like,  rewriting the script. You identify the script,  

[24:32] and one way to figure out which script  is, is running your life is to, like,  

[24:37] tune into the suffering. Like, where am I feeling  resentful? Where am I feeling, uh, misaligned? Um,  

[24:45] and that can be, like, the portal to figuring  out, like, I've got some story in my head.

[24:50] Um, and then you can, you know,  use... You can literally sit down,  

[24:55] pen in hand, write out the old  script, and then write a new one.

[24:58] Suzan: Yeah. And i- in writing the new script-  You know what? We write it, and then we actually  

[25:04] iterate and, like, try out new things. So there  is, um, a researcher named Herminia Ibarra who  

[25:12] did this, this series of studies on staff who  were being promoted into managerial roles.

[25:18] So they were technical, and now they're being  promoted into managerial roles. And she found  

[25:23] that the people who really struggled were  the ones who couldn't let go of their,  

[25:29] basically their script of what their job  should be, what they were good at. So people  

[25:34] who th- who believe themselves to be very good  at the technical aspect, and they didn't think  

[25:40] they would be very good managers, of course,  they had a really hard time leveling up there.

[25:45] And so even if they took the job and they  wanted the job in the managerial position,  

[25:50] they kept thinking, "Well, I am known as being  good technically." And until they rewrite the  

[25:59] script and say, "Okay, I can actually be a  manager," but then they iterate and they try  

[26:05] it out. They try different things, and  you say, "Okay, well, this is working.

[26:08] This one's not." And so it's this  iterative process to changing how  

[26:13] we behave and, and changing our roles and  responsibilities in that iden- identity.

[26:19] Dan: I find it so fascinating,  and I, I come back to the theme,  

[26:23] this theme so often on the show  because I find it so fascinating. Um,  

[26:28] I just can't get over the fact that we  are talking to ourselves all the time.

[26:33] Um, and we're telling ourselves stories that  we're aware of or not that are making us,  

[26:38] often making us unhappy. And it  is possible to rewire this inner  

[26:43] talk track in ways that are extremely beneficial.

[26:48] Suzan: Mm-hmm. Yes, and I think, you  know, I'm very thankful that early,  

[26:52] very early in my career when I was  training in the US as a psychiatrist,  

[26:56] I also had this parallel career doing policy  and research in humanitarian settings.

[27:01] And so we see that Americans, we are  obsessed with our thoughts. Like,  

[27:06] we love to just take them out of our  brain and put them under a microscope,  

[27:11] and we do all the cognitive restructuring and  reframing and, and that's very important. Like,  

[27:16] studies are very clear on the benefits of  psychotherapy and mindfulness meditation, right?

[27:21] At the same time, I was working and living  in these other countries and contexts where  

[27:26] there are no therapists, right? Sierra Leone,  Liberia, Burundi, they all have, like, one  

[27:30] psychiatrist for the whole country, and there are  no therapists. There is a lot of suffering there,  

[27:35] but many people are doing okay. So how are they  healing if they don't have the same relationship  

[27:42] with their thoughts and, and they don't have  therapy as the main intervention of healing?

[27:49] And that's when I really realized  that when we get outside of ourselves,  

[27:55] because people that live in these, like,  relationally interdependent communities,  

[27:59] their identities and their, their  self is defined not by the individual,  

[28:04] it's defined in relationship. So if I go  to, let's say, I remember I was going,  

[28:09] I was doing this evaluation in Sierra Leone,  and I asked people, like, "How are you doing?"

[28:12] And they say, "Good or bad." And I say, "Okay,  like, really, how are you doing?" And they'll say,  

[28:19] "Well, I'm bad because I can't get a job for  my family. I can't provide for my fam-" It's  

[28:24] all in relation to their roles. And here in the  US, I think we're very focused on our thoughts,  

[28:31] our feelings, our experiences. That's  not necessarily the same case in many,  

[28:36] many cultures around the world, where, yes,  they're still ruminating and they still have  

[28:42] thoughts that they're constantly, um, churning in  their mind, but it's not as much of an evaluation.

[28:50] Like, we do a lot of self-evaluation. It  tends to be pretty negative judgments.  

[28:56] So there's still rumination, but the content is  very different. It's very focused on outwards,  

[29:02] on other, because the whole concept of self  is enmeshed and embodied in, in another.

[29:08] Dan: But for those of us who don't live  in, in, in those kinds of cultures,  

[29:12] we live in this, in, I'm, I'm  sitting in New York right now.

[29:16] I live in a culture that really does center the  self. What can we learn very practically from,  

[29:22] from this other model, and how  do we apply it in our lives?

[29:25] Suzan: Yeah, I think this is one of the  benefits. It's that sometimes we can try  

[29:33] to expand outwards with our thinking. So let's  say we're going through a really hard time.

[29:40] What we'll tend to ask ourselves is, "How am I  feeling?" Or, "How am I doing?" Maybe we ask that,  

[29:46] but the next question can be, "Who can  I help? Where can I engage in the world  

[29:50] outside? Where can I en- engage my community  or my workplace? Who do I matter to? Who do  

[29:55] I want to matter to?" These are all questions  that get outside of our individual experience.

[30:03] We still acknowledge it, and we're not,  

[30:06] um, ignoring it. We're just also  bringing in a whole nother community,  

[30:13] like, a whole nother sense of our identity  as being connected to humanity at large.

[30:17] Dan: So this would be a way if  we're running self-limiting scripts,  

[30:24] one way to step out of them, uh,  we talked about rewriting them,  

[30:27] but another way to step out of them  would be, uh, to focus on other people.

[30:32] Suzan: Yeah, to redirect. To say, you know,  maybe right now I don't have to ask about how  

[30:39] my f- and look, I'm a psychiatrist, right?  So, like, feelings, emotions, all of that,  

[30:43] good. And also Sometimes we need to step  outside of that. Like, there's a lot of  

[30:50] talk around mental health right now. Great. We  don't wanna stigmatize mental health issues.

[30:56] But a lot of the discussion around mental  health is focusing on this lowering of symptoms,  

[31:01] of depression, of anxiety, et cetera. But an  equal question I think we need to be asking is,  

[31:08] how is a person living? Because I know plenty  of people that have mental health symptoms,  

[31:16] depression, anxiety, and they're also  able to love and to belong in a community  

[31:22] and to engage and participate  at their kid's school, right?

[31:25] And I know a lot of people who have  really no mental health symptoms,  

[31:29] and they're isolated, and they can't  actually engage in the world at large.  

[31:35] So just because we're feeling better  doesn't mean that we are being well,  

[31:41] right? Th- there's a, a difference there.  And so the more we can take ourselves out  

[31:45] of ourselves and remind ourselves that we are  part of something larger, and we actually get  

[31:53] a lot of healing and kind of agency when we  embed ourselves in other relations around us.

[32:01] Dan: I've seen that play out in my  own life many times. My wife Bianca  

[32:06] has a bunch of glasses from Warby Parker.  She's got, uh, readers, distance glasses,  

[32:12] progressives. She's got one pair that's  pretty much on her person at all times. Uh,  

[32:17] she likes all of their styles, but in  particular, she likes the aviator styles.

[32:21] Long way of saying the Harrises are, uh,  bought in when it comes to Warby Parker.  

[32:26] And now Warby Parker is endeavoring to make the  entire process of getting glasses even easier,  

[32:32] uh, by allowing you to get your eye  exam done at one of their stores.  

[32:35] You can actually walk into one of their  stores and get an eye exam right there.

[32:38] No running around to multiple spots, no  guessing if your prescription is even up  

[32:41] to date. Everything is super clean and modern.  And Warby Parker is covered by many major eye  

[32:47] insurance plans. You just enter your information  and see if you're eligible for benefits on frames,  

[32:52] contacts, or eye exams. If you are,  they automatically apply them for you.

[32:57] Right now, buy one pair of glasses and get 20% off  any additional pairs at warbyparker.com/happier.  

[33:04] That's 20% off any additional pairs when you  purchase one pair at W-A-R-B-Y parker.com/happier

[33:18] On the show, we talk a lot about how to  train your mind, tame the inner critic,  

[33:21] and build habits that make you happier. But  a big part of that equation is asking broader  

[33:26] questions about what actually constitutes  a good and meaningful life. That's why I  

[33:31] wanna share a podcast with you. It's called  No Small Endeavor, and it's hosted by Lee C.

[33:35] Camp. On No Small Endeavor, Lee brings  together world-class thinkers, psychologists,  

[33:40] neuroscientists, and authors to explore what  it means to live a life worth living. Uh,  

[33:46] they dive deeply into topics such as  resilience, character, connection,  

[33:50] and joy, not in a high-minded, dusty textbook way,  but with incredible nuance and practical warmth.

[33:57] In a special new series, Lee explores the human  ache that secularism can't explain and the new  

[34:03] spiritualities that may not be able to fill it.  Lee travels around the world talking to guests  

[34:07] on both sides of the war between science  and religion, like Bell Tyndall Reilly,  

[34:12] a biblical scholar from rural Wales who grew up  lying to her classmates about going to church.

[34:17] Alister McGrath, a theologian who came to Oxford  as a Marxist atheist and is deeply enamored with  

[34:22] both science and faith. And Iain McGilchrist,  a psychiatrist who has spent thirty-five years  

[34:28] asking what the two halves of the brain are  for and challenges how we see the world.  

[34:33] They all agree that we live in a rational,  flattened modern world, which has consequences,  

[34:37] but none of them agree on whether what  we're soothing the ache with is good news.

[34:42] If you're interested in mindfulness,  emotional resilience, and intentional living,  

[34:46] No Small Endeavor is a great companion to what we  

[34:49] do here. Search for No Small Endeavor  wherever you listen to your podcasts

[34:56] In the section of your book on narrative,  you talk a lot about memory and how many  

[35:03] of us are dogged by unpleasant memories.  Uh, and there's actually a way to flip or  

[35:10] change the script on those. Can you talk a  little bit here about how we might do that?

[35:15] Suzan: Yeah. So our narratives are  really built off of our memories.

[35:20] We imagine, though, that our memories are like  a video recorder and, um, that when we recall  

[35:27] a memory, you're just, like, hitting play on  that video recorder. But actually remembering  

[35:32] a memory is a process of reconstruction. So  memory is just a little neurobiology. Like,  

[35:37] memories are essentially stored as these patterns  of connections across these neural networks.

[35:42] So if you imagine two people playing  tennis, these are like the neurons,  

[35:46] and they're volleying back this electrochemical  signal, and now you have thousands and millions  

[35:52] of neurons, like, playing tennis with each  other. They become more efficient. And  

[36:01] there's a saying that's like, "The neurons  that fire together, they wire together."

[36:04] So the more efficiently they play, the more  easy it is to retrieve and recall this memory.  

[36:10] But if you and I are playing tennis and  I just had an argument with a friend,  

[36:15] or I felt sick the night before, I'm  not gonna play as well. And so all  

[36:20] these external factors are going to affect  how I remember, how I recall this memory.

[36:26] In the same way, when we're all telling  a memory of something that's happened,  

[36:31] yes, there's the true facts  of the event of what happened,  

[36:35] but there's also the story and the emotional  valence we put on the memories that change  

[36:39] constantly. And so memories are this process  of reconstruction. They're very suggestible.

[36:47] And so this is why so many couples are  arguing of, like, what actually happened,  

[36:51] right? Or in the workplace, like,  people are fighting 'cause they,  

[36:54] they don't remember the same event in the same  way. And that's because we all see and remember  

[37:02] stories that are aligned with what we need  to be true And sometimes that's really hard.

[37:10] That's one of the things that really gets in  the way of our ability to rewrite a narrative  

[37:14] or to engage with a changed memory, is that  oftentimes we need these narratives to be true,  

[37:24] and if there's some new information, either  a memory or someone telling us some feedback  

[37:28] that we don't really like, it threatens our  sense of self, of who we know ourselves to be.

[37:33] And that's really hard. It's, it's hard for us  to change our, and update our, our narratives.

[37:39] Dan: So how do we do it, or should we do it?

[37:41] Suzan: Yeah, so let's say there's a spouse, and  the spouse comes home and they say, "You know,  

[37:50] I just feel like you haven't been helping out  around the house as much." And the, the spouse is  

[37:55] thinking to themselves, "First of all, I pride  myself on being a good partner and provider.

[38:00] I actually am doing quite a lot in this  house," and they're, like, listing through.  

[38:04] "I did the trash the other day. I did bedtime  for the kids last week," like all of the,  

[38:08] the things. And so our first instinct is  to explain ourselves. And then when we get  

[38:16] tired of that, we then defend ourselves and we  say, "But also, I've been really busy at work,  

[38:20] and I have all these things," and we go into,  like, what's happening at work now to deflect.

[38:25] So what's happening is, one, we might have the  memories of the past that are coming into play,  

[38:30] and we also then have this sense of  the information that's coming at me  

[38:35] is threatening who I know myself to be as a  good partner. There's this late psychoanalyst,  

[38:44] Selma Fraiberg, who had this,  coined this term that I love.

[38:47] She said, um A mother cannot hear her  child's cries until the mother's cries are  

[38:55] heard first. Something like that. And it's  really that when we're feeling threatened,  

[39:00] when our core identity of who we are, the  stories of who we believe ourselves to be,  

[39:05] when there's a threat to that,  we are not able to hear it.

[39:09] We can't update that. We can't change  our story until we're feeling safe and  

[39:16] protected in that. So what we do, and I  call it this, like, this porcupine, like,  

[39:21] these porcupine quills go out, and so we want  to attack or we defend or we blame the other,  

[39:30] all because that soft underbelly is really  vulnerable. And so the more that we can go  

[39:35] to that underbelly and we say, "Okay, look,  I know you're a really good partner," right?

[39:39] This is where the validation comes in first. We  validate what is the story that they need to be  

[39:45] true about themselves. We validate that. You're  a good person. And then we ask for change. This  

[39:51] is a whole dialectic, right? Validate, and  then you ask for change. And I think that's  

[39:56] kind of the prerequisite from, in order to,  like, help someone change their own stories.

[40:02] Dan: Yeah. Like, for me, if my  wife has a complaint, w- you know,  

[40:07] pretty much 100% of the time  it's a legitimate complaint,  

[40:10] and I can be super defensive because I  hear her saying, "You're a bad person."

[40:16] Suzan: Yes.

[40:16] Dan: Even though, of course,  that's not what she's saying,  

[40:18] but that's my deepest fear, and  so therefore I get defensive.

[40:21] Suzan: Yes. Yes. And that's very common because-  We filter all information through the stories  

[40:30] that we need to be true. You need it to be  true that you're a good person. We all do.  

[40:35] Depending on how... It's not even depending  on how the information's coming at us,  

[40:38] it's also how we're feeling  that at that moment, right?

[40:41] Like, it's all going to affect  how it's received. And so the  

[40:46] more that we can just see, like bear  witness to the soft underbelly first,  

[40:53] that will give us the best chance of,  you know, being able to, to rewrite.

[40:58] Dan: Is this maybe the time to talk a little bit  about practical steps for repetition compulsion?

[41:04] Would this be an appropriate  time to come back to, you know,  

[41:07] I know we started with that, the fact  that we tend to recreate the conditions  

[41:10] we say we don't want. Is there more to  say about how we can maybe not do that?

[41:15] Suzan: Yeah. So repetition compulsion, the f-  the first step is always to notice the pattern.  

[41:21] We have to know that we're in  a repetitive pattern first.

[41:26] And so it's to understand the next  time that someone says, "Oh my gosh,  

[41:31] I can't believe I'm in this again," right?  That tends to be the cue to say, "Okay,  

[41:35] let's pause there." Like, what is the actual  pattern that's going on? And so we identify what  

[41:41] that pattern is. What's the experience that's  happened? And it's not just the experience.

[41:46] The driver of repetition compulsion are  the feelings that were never dealt with.  

[41:52] They're the feelings that were pushed  under the, the rug. helplessness,  

[41:57] vulnerability. I didn't have power  or control. I felt unloved. Those  

[42:02] we need to pull back 'cause that's what's  actually driving the repetition compulsion.

[42:06] So we identify the pattern, we identify what  the feelings were that were completely ignored.  

[42:12] Once we bring it to light,  it starts to lose its power,  

[42:16] and then we sit with that emotion,  whatever it may be, and we say, "Okay,  

[42:22] I was so scared of it before. That's why it has  so much power over me." But now with almost,  

[42:28] like, exposure therapy to the emotion, well,  now I realize I have more control over it.

[42:35] I'm not dying from this emotion.  And then we can say, "Logically,  

[42:39] how do I want to engage with this pattern? Do I  want to break it, and if so, how?" So in my work,  

[42:49] for example, you know, for, let's say for this  woman who is now married to someone who has this,  

[42:54] uh, work addiction, we can  say, "Okay, what's the pattern?

[42:57] What were the feelings you were experiencing  with it? Now feel the feelings. You have control,  

[43:01] so you're diluting the power of that.  Now what do you wanna do? Right?  

[43:06] How you want to engage in this?" Doesn't  mean she has to leave her husband,  

[43:10] right? There are lots of different options  there. So she can talk to her husband, say,  

[43:14] "Hey, I've noticed this pattern in me,  and I'm having a hard time with it."

[43:19] Or she can say, "I want a different type of  relationship." In her basket, she can put out  

[43:24] all these different possible solutions, and just  expanding that is a way of breaking the cycle And  

[43:32] then she gets to choose one and try it out and  see what happens. When we bring it to conscious  

[43:37] awareness and we say, "I'm gonna intentionally  deal with this," it starts to lose a lot of power.

[43:42] Dan: It's incredible how that,  how that can happen. Um, okay,  

[43:46] so as, as we established early  in the, in this discussion,  

[43:50] um, there are these three friends of winter.  We just talked about one, which is, um, working  

[43:56] with narrative. The second is, is ritual. So, um,  maybe say a little bit about h- how ritual can,  

[44:05] can help in this regard because I think m- many  people, and for a long time I felt this way, yeah,  

[44:09] I hear the word ritual, and I just think of,  you know, pagan stuff or something like that.

[44:14] Mm-hmm. It doesn't seem like  it's relevant to my life.

[44:18] Suzan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I did too, actually. Um,  so rituals are a set of actions that really  

[44:24] connect you to yourself or to others, and  they're powerful because they really bind  

[44:30] us across time and space, and they bring us  closer to, to what your dreams are, actually.

[44:37] So rituals, we all use them, and I think  one of the ways in which we use them,  

[44:41] there are two ways. So one is through  emotion regulation. So let's say any athlete,  

[44:47] most athletes have some sort of  rituals to help regulate. Steph  

[44:50] Curry does a tunnel shot before  his games. Like, Serena Williams,  

[44:54] I think she bounces the ball five times before  her first serve, two times before a second serve.

[44:59] Like, these are all just rituals that help us find  more control, predictability, and they regulate.  

[45:04] So they can do, they can help with emotion  regulation. They can also help with emotional  

[45:07] scaffolding during the times when things are just  so hard we can't think through anything. When you  

[45:14] think about losing a loved one, a lot of times  when we've lost a loved one, time stands still.

[45:22] We don't know what to do with ourselves.  Like, where do we go? Who do we talk to?  

[45:27] What are we supposed to be doing? So most every  culture has some sort of ritual around how to go  

[45:35] through the grieving process, and that ritual's  important because it connects us to others.  

[45:41] It kind of, it's this community telling  us, "Okay, we're all in this together.

[45:44] We've all experienced loss before." And also it  helps to guide you when, like, we really can't  

[45:51] think about what to do. Rituals can also help us  when we reintegrate into life. So let's say either  

[45:58] it's after divorce, like I think after a divorce,  so many people go off and they have their new  

[46:04] rituals or hobbies that they do, or, um, people  going through the change of retirement, right?

[46:13] Like sometimes we need some kind of a marker  to ritualize that. Or people returning from  

[46:18] military service, they need to do a ritual to  help them kind of enga- even in my work sometimes,  

[46:25] the days are hard, like dealing with  kind of, you know, torture survivors,  

[46:28] hostages, and also like CEOs and it's  just a very emotionally complex day.

[46:35] Dan: Hmm.

[46:35] Suzan: When I then go to see my kids, I need a  ritual for me to reenter that home life. And so I,  

[46:43] before I go back home to see kids, I do a  10-minute walk where I don't think about  

[46:47] the day or about what I need to do. It's just,  I actually think about like draining my head  

[46:54] from my brain to my toes, and I imagine  just like flowing out and I wait until,  

[47:00] it used to be a bucket, now it's a big swimming  pool, until that's full, and then I go back home.

[47:05] And that's my ritual, just to  reintegrate back into my normal life.

[47:09] Dan: For those of us who've just gone through  something hard or who just have, you know,  

[47:14] difficult transitions that we need to  make during the day from work to home,  

[47:18] how would we even begin to think  about creating rituals for ourselves?

[47:24] Suzan: Hmm.

[47:24] Well, I would say first start, we all have  rituals that we do every day. Personal,  

[47:28] professional rituals. Even things like, you  know, birthdays, let's say. My daughter just  

[47:33] had a birthday. You take a candle, put it  in a cake. There's no s- like meaning behind  

[47:38] a candle or the cake. It's just what we as a  society have said, like, "This is what you do.

[47:43] This is the ritual." We all ha- like think about  any families, family rituals that you might have.  

[47:49] So Friday pizza night, Saturday movie night.  What, what do you do on holidays? Um- How do  

[47:57] you mark the beginnings or the ends of  things? Like, we have so many rituals,  

[48:01] or we used to have. I think we're in a  ritual deficit right now, our society.

[48:06] But rituals are so important  in just regulating all of us,  

[48:10] our society. And because they connect  us to other people, they remind us,  

[48:15] they embody all of our insights, our values,  our beliefs. So they're really useful for  

[48:21] our society in just kind of grounding us in,  in our home of who we know ourselves to be.

[48:28] So if you want to include more rituals  in your personal life, I think,  

[48:33] think about where are the transitions in your  life, either the daily transitions or over time,  

[48:39] and what do you want to do for those, right? So  I work with college kids. When school is out,  

[48:45] the last day of school, do you want to have a  ritual that kind of marks the end of, you know,  

[48:52] a good academic year and going into the summer?

[48:54] Dan: Yeah, I had one. It was  a, it was called a keg party.

[48:57] Suzan: Right. Right. And even the keg party,  right, that's binding you with other people. Like,  

[49:03] you're bringing them together to all say,  "We're gonna celebrate this together."

[49:07] Dan: Mm-hmm.

[49:07] Suzan: Right? So back to this sense of belonging  and community and being in relation with others.

[49:13] That's the beauty of, of rituals.

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[50:51] Okay, so what that actually l-  leads to the third friend of winter,  

[50:55] which is purpose. So just to reset, you  know, we're, we're talking about these three  

[50:59] ways to deal with the non-negotiable  uncertainty and instability of life.

[51:05] The first was working with, you know, telling a  different story, flipping the script. The second  

[51:10] was creating rituals for emotion regulation in  the face of life's ups and downs. And then the  

[51:16] third is creating a sense of purpose. So what do  you mean by purpose, and why is that so important?

[51:20] Suzan: Yeah, so purpose gives us direction.

[51:23] It's, um, something that's larger than ourselves  of meaning, and I think it's often misunderstood.  

[51:30] So many people think that purpose is like a  goal habit or it's achievement or it's passion,  

[51:37] but purpose is a thing that guides our actions.  It tells us why we're doing something, what it's  

[51:43] all for. It doesn't have to be something large  like saving the world, or it can be something  

[51:48] like helping your parent if they have dementia  or raising children, fixing up the neighborhood.

[51:53] It's around being needed. And oftentimes I see  people when they're at their peak of their career,  

[52:00] they've already accomplished all the  things, and then they come to me and  

[52:03] they say, "You know, I just feel really  dissatisfied. I'm not sure why. I mean,  

[52:07] I've accomplished all these things." And  they can still accomplish more goals.

[52:11] All they do is like set a goal, they'll,  they'll reach it. But they'll say like,  

[52:15] "I don't feel fulfilled." And that's  because they've lost their purpose. It's  

[52:21] not that they have to find it. Most people  are already living out your purpose. So if  

[52:26] you think in your life like, where  am I feeling resonant in the world?

[52:31] Like, where do I have coherence? Where am I  just like vibing with the world? Where my,  

[52:34] my thoughts, my actions, my values, they're all  in alignment with what I'm doing. Maybe it's like  

[52:40] you're in the flow of something. That's gonna  give you some signal to where your purpose is.  

[52:45] So maybe it's someone at work who's like working  on a, a meaningful project, or it's when you're  

[52:50] volunteering at your kid's school and you're  just like, "You know, this feels really right."

[52:54] That's a signal to your purpose. And  then we can ask ourselves, you know,  

[52:58] sometimes our purpose is through a corrective  experience. It's needing to repair something of  

[53:04] the past. Also not uncommon to have someone  who grew up in like relative poverty and  

[53:08] their life's work is working for like a  very mission driven organization, right?

[53:13] It's like we're trying to repair  something we didn't get in our childhood.

[53:18] Dan: Hmm.

[53:18] Suzan: You know, the, the person who grew  up with very critical or unemotional or  

[53:24] emotionally unavailable parents, their  purpose in life is to make sure that  

[53:29] their child feels listened to, that  they're attuned to their kids, right?

[53:34] That's their life purpose. It's this corrective  experience. And then we can ask ourselves Well,  

[53:39] gosh, who do we matter to right  now? And if we answer that,  

[53:42] that's probably telling us something about our  purpose. And if that's not who we want it to be,  

[53:48] we can say, well, who do we want to matter  to? It doesn't have to be one person.

[53:52] It could be a community or a culture. Like,  where do we wanna make a difference? Where  

[53:58] am I needed in the world? And I tell you  that especially for older adults who are  

[54:06] dealing with the loss of the structure of  being needed, like in a job, let's say,  

[54:13] or the grandchildren have grown up  now and they don't need them as much,  

[54:19] it can be very, very hard to lose that  structure of meaning and of being needed.

[54:25] And so when we can insert that and say, "Okay,  

[54:27] where are you needed?" I have seen  that save a life, right? Huh. That  

[54:32] really can be so powerful- Huh. Just to say  like, "You are needed. You belong here."

[54:37] Dan: I would... I'm sure everybody watching  or listening is doing what I was doing while,  

[54:44] uh, listening to you speak, like trying to  figure out Based on my childhood wounds and,  

[54:52] uh, where I feel most aligned and in flow and, uh,  

[54:57] where I matter the most now, like,  what does that say about my purpose?

[55:01] I was just thinking, like, for me, my  childhood wounds are probably... I had  

[55:05] very loving parents, but, uh, like,  my most searing memories are, like,  

[55:09] my mom's first day back at work when I was  two, which is too young to have memories,  

[55:13] but I have a very clear memory of that  day, so I don't know how to explain that.

[55:16] And then also s- tons of trauma around, uh,  being at summer camp and feeling trapped and  

[55:23] abandoned. Uh, I needed my parents, and they  weren't there, and I couldn't get out. Mm. Um,  

[55:29] and wh- so where do I feel like I matter the most  now, and where do I feel the most energy? Uh,  

[55:36] parenting and being kind of like  a connector socially in my world.

[55:44] I have six, seven, eight recurring lunches  and dinners with different groups of friends  

[55:49] that I org- that I'm, uh, central to  organizing, some of them around the  

[55:54] Dharma and Buddhism and some just bunch of  people I like getting together. And so that,  

[55:59] you can pretty much draw a straight line from- Mm  ... feeling abandoned, unmoored, uh, disconnected,  

[56:07] anxious, to engineering community belonging and  mattering now as a grown-up when I have control.

[56:16] Suzan: Mm-hmm. And that, that's  beautiful. That you... I mean,  

[56:20] it takes a lot of intentional eff- I would  assume for you, it, it takes a lot of effort and,  

[56:27] um, and energy to say, "I'm going to create  something." Like, "I, I need this." Like, there,  

[56:33] it probably didn't just happen that you create  all these communities. And what you've done,  

[56:38] it's this ripple effect, so now other people feel  a sense of belonging and a sense of inspiration.

[56:45] Like, "Oh, he's done it. Well, now maybe I  can do that, too." I mean, I- that's what  

[56:48] I'm hearing listening to you. I'm like, "Oh,  my gosh. That's brilliant. I wanna do that,  

[56:52] too. I wanna have..." And so it's, it  spreads, right? It becomes contagious.

[56:56] Dan: Yeah. I'm, I'm laughing a little  bit because, like, I, people often,  

[57:02] people who participate in  these events will often say,  

[57:04] "Thank you so much for doing it," and I often  think, "Well, I'm not doing it for you."

[57:10] Right. "I'm doing it for myself." You know?  I mean, I love that you're happy. It's not,  

[57:13] I'm not, I'm not actually being an  asshole. But, uh- Yeah ... I don't  

[57:16] think I am i- in my head. Uh, but, but I do  feel a little bit of sheepishness because my,  

[57:22] I think my initial impulse is, is a kind  of a healthy version of selfishness.

[57:28] Suzan: Hmm. Yeah, and that's, that's fine because  you're not hurting anybody, right? And you're  

[57:33] inspiring and supporting other people's lives,  and it spreads this... Like, when you can feel  

[57:39] a sense of belonging and It's almost this like  collective agency that, that grows and develops  

[57:47] and that spreads across, and that collective  agency helps people find their personal agency.

[57:54] So- Hmm ... it's a win-win for everybody.

[57:56] Dan: Let's see if we can put some fine points  on all of this. Um, or i- it could be just one  

[58:02] fine point, but we've, we've walked through some  strategies for dealing with life's uncertainties.  

[58:09] Um, I, I believe in your book, you kind of  wrap up by, um, with a chapter that's called  

[58:15] Rethinking Resilience, and, and you kind  of lay out your definition of resilience.

[58:21] Maybe that would be a good place for us to close.

[58:23] Suzan: Yeah. So resilience, I think, is often  misunderstood. I think we define it normally  

[58:31] as like bouncing back. But in the people that  I work with that have experienced adversity,  

[58:36] I always wonder, like bouncing back to what? Um,  so I would define resilience as more engaging  

[58:42] with instability, recognizing stability  is an illusion, engaging with instability,  

[58:48] and finding a way to engage in the world Even  when the world isn't as we want it to be.

[58:55] And I think my problem with the term resilience  really came from, I used to be medical director  

[58:59] of this foster care clinic, um, and it was  a, a clinic for people, children with very,  

[59:05] very high needs, so they're in and out  of foster homes, sometimes like s- five  

[59:11] or seven placements in one year. And so  it was very emotionally demanding work.

[59:16] There was a lot of staff turnover,  and new staff would come in,  

[59:19] and inevitably somebody would say  like, "Oh my gosh, these kids are  

[59:22] so resilient." And I could not stand that  term because it makes me question, well,  

[59:27] who g- is defining that? Who gets to call someone  resilient, and who is benefiting from that?

[59:34] Because these children are just enduring. They're  just enduring a system and a structure that is  

[59:40] not working for them. And when we call someone  resilient, it's almost like we're absolving the  

[59:46] system of having to deal with it and having to  manage it. I mean, there was another time early,  

[59:51] early in my life when I first started working with  s- uh, survivors of torture, there was one guy,  

[59:55] and I, I just said something about  like, "Oh, you're so resilient."

[59:59] S- He became very quiet, and he looked down and  he said, "I'm not resilient. I just didn't die."  

[1:00:06] I thought like, yeah, that's actually true.  Like a lot of times we're just enduring,  

[1:00:12] and we're just one foot in front of the  other enduring a system that might not  

[1:00:16] be the best system for us. So I think  true resilience is when we can actually  

[1:00:22] engage with what's really going on at  hand and not lose ourselves within it.

[1:00:26] We stay grounded, we find a sense of mastery,  

[1:00:28] and we engage in the world in a  meaningful way through the instability.

[1:00:33] Dan: Before I let you go, we are  experimenting here with a new  

[1:00:38] closing segment, and it's called What's  Good. What is something, could be a book,  

[1:00:43] could be a play you saw, could  be a movie, uh, that is good.

[1:00:49] You down with this?

[1:00:50] Suzan: Great, yeah. So what's good? So  this is actually easy for me because,  

[1:00:54] um, I guess I should define good.  I feel good when I feel loved,  

[1:01:00] when I smile. And when I'm inspired. And so  every night I, I call this emotional GPS. I  

[1:01:07] hate journaling. I don- journaling is good.  There are lots of studies on the benefits.

[1:01:11] I cannot do it. I'm with you. So instead, every  night I just have these three columns, and I put a  

[1:01:19] little heart for feeling loved, a smiley face for,  for, um, something that made me smile that day,  

[1:01:24] and then, um, a light bulb for what inspired  me. What made me feel loved is actually,  

[1:01:29] um, you know, I have a friend who sent me  a song when they were thinking about me.

[1:01:33] I think that definitely made me feel very...  It was a beautiful song, and that made me feel  

[1:01:37] loved. What made me smile, my son, he's nine  years old. He, um, I got him a hoverboard. I  

[1:01:43] also make him do chores. So he hoverboards around  the kitchen with a mop so he can- ... mop around.  

[1:01:50] And it's so cute when he does it. So that  makes me smile And then what inspires me,  

[1:01:56] um, I have a couple of friends who are very  active and they kind of organize protests,  

[1:02:02] and I love seeing people live out a moral compass.

[1:02:07] They live out their values. That, to me, is very  inspiring. So those are mine from last night.

[1:02:12] Dan: All right. Uh, I, I like that a lot. I do  this thing where, um, I don't like journaling  

[1:02:17] either. I, I, I'm a big believer in it, like  you. I even made a journal with my wife that we,  

[1:02:22] uh, sold for a little while. Um, we might  put them back on the market at some point.

[1:02:26] But I just, um, since I write memoirs, I don't  feel like actually journaling also. But I do do  

[1:02:32] this thing right before I go to bed. I take a warm  shower, which, uh, he- helps me fall asleep, um,  

[1:02:36] and there's some data to show it can help you fall  asleep more quickly. Uh, and I just, while I'm in  

[1:02:41] the shower, I just list all the things that I was  grateful for that day, and I find it very helpful.

[1:02:47] But that's not my what's good. So my  what's good is, is, uh, is much less,  

[1:02:51] um, grand and profound than yours. It's just a  record that came out recently that I love. And  

[1:02:56] just to say, you know, we were talking  about emotion regulation. There's some  

[1:02:59] data to show that one way to regulate  emotions, and Ethan Kross has, has, uh,  

[1:03:04] the scientist from University of Michigan,  has, uh, talked about this on the show.

[1:03:08] Um, one great way to regulate your emotion  is through music. Um, I, my primary,  

[1:03:14] uh, use case for music is when I'm working out.  I like to lift weights or run or whatever, and,  

[1:03:20] um, and so I tend to pick, um, uh, high octane,  uh, music. And there's this young woman,  

[1:03:27] I think she might be British. Stage  name is Francis of Delirium, and- Hmm

[1:03:34] I think her f- her actual name is Jana Warchach.  Anyway, she's got a new record. It's called Run,  

[1:03:41] Run, Pure Beauty, and it's got... It actually  has just a ton of pure beauty in it. It is a  

[1:03:46] beautiful... She has a beautiful voice.  She's a really talented songwriter,  

[1:03:50] and it's got enough of the,  um, sort of propulsion and,  

[1:03:55] uh, aggression that I like for, uh, workout  music, and I highly recommend this record.

[1:04:00] So not quite as profound as, uh, Dr. Song's, um,  

[1:04:03] uh, little, uh, nighttime ritual,  but, uh, uh, I like it nonetheless.

[1:04:07] Suzan: Yeah. Well, we have to listen to  it now. I hope there's a segment. Like,  

[1:04:10] you have to have a little  snippet- ... or the song.

[1:04:13] Dan: Uh, Dr. Song, uh, you've done a great  job with this. It's really nice to meet  

[1:04:16] you. I want to remind everybody  of the name of your book- Mm-hmm

[1:04:19] which is Why We Suffer and How  We Heal. Um, any, do you have,  

[1:04:22] like, a website or anything else like  that that people should know about?

[1:04:26] Suzan: Yes, my website is suzannesong.com. It's  

[1:04:28] spelled S-U-Z-A-N song.com,  and everything's on there.

[1:04:33] Dan: Awesome. Uh, such a pleasure to  meet you. Thanks again for doing this.

[1:04:36] Suzan: Yeah, thank you so much.

[1:04:38] Dan: Also, a quick ask before I let you go. If  you've got a minute, head on over to danharris.com  

[1:04:43] and sign up for my newsletter. It drops in  your inbox on Monday mornings, often a busy  

[1:04:49] and stressful time for us. I try to write a short  essay that has a little bit of wisdom, actionable,  

[1:04:56] practical wisdom that you can immediately  weave into your life on Monday mornings.

[1:05:01] A lot of people find them helpful, and I hope  you will too. You can sign up at danharris.com.  

[1:05:05] It's totally free. Now to the credits.  Thank you so much to everybody who works  

[1:05:11] so hard to make this show. Ten Percent  Happier is produced by Tara Anderson,  

[1:05:15] Marissa Schneiderman, DJ Cashmere,  David Hart, and Hayden Broome.

[1:05:19] Post-production is handled by the great folks  over at Greenhorn Creative, and Nick Thorburn  

[1:05:25] of the great indie rock band Islands wrote  our theme. Thank you for listening. Deuces.

Ten Percent Happier
ArtistTen Percent Happier

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Song describes repetition compulsion as living life in cycles, where people unconsciously recreate painful patterns they never fully processed. She says the drive is toward mastery: we want control over a situation we once lacked control over. She illustrates it with examples like someone who vows never to marry an alcoholic and then reenacts her father's dynamic with a work-addicted partner.
It is a phrase Suzan Song coined, and host Dan Harris said it explained much of his anxiety about family, work, and the world. The idea is that people try to build permanent order in a world that constantly changes. That effort can feel like safety but leaves people exposed when their structures break.
Song argues that the brain protects us by not storing overwhelming experiences in a usable form, and that unaddressed fragments of those experiences keep looking for resolution. Predictability feels safer than uncertainty, so even a painful script can feel like a baseline of stability. Until the feelings are addressed, the pattern tends to repeat in new relationships and workplaces.
Song suggests identifying the recurring pattern, then the feelings that were ignored when it began, then the role you are protecting right now. The episode's shorthand is to follow the resentment, since resentment often marks where an old script is still active. Mapping several similar experiences side by side can reveal the common thread.
According to Song, you first need to feel safe enough to look at the narrative, because it cannot be updated while you are overwhelmed. Reframing helps, but she describes it as one part of the process. Drawing on Herminia Ibarra's research, she points to trying out new roles and actions in small steps as a way to change identity.
Song says memory is assembled rather than replayed like a video, which is why people who lived through the same event often remember it differently. She noticed this in her own life when she learned from her mother that she had lived through a full year with her father after his attack, a year she could not remember at all.
Song observes that Americans tend to be highly individualized in how they experience suffering, treating it as a private problem to solve alone. She contrasts this with a relational view in which pain is held within relationships and communities. She suggests the relational self is a stronger foundation for weathering the unavoidable storms in every life.

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