Transcript
[0:00] I'm Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a clinical
[0:03] psychologist and the author of It's Not
[0:06] You: Identifying and Healing from
[0:08] Narcissistic People.
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[1:00] And now, back to the interview.
[1:06] Chapter 1: How to identify narcissism.
[1:09] >> In the early 2000s, I started becoming
[1:12] interested in narcissism, and actually
[1:14] in narcissism itself, while I was a
[1:17] professor at California State
[1:18] University, Los Angeles, and I was
[1:20] specifically looking at how narcissistic
[1:23] people made decisions and showed up in
[1:25] relationships.
[1:27] But where it got really interesting for
[1:28] me was when I was in private practice,
[1:30] and more and more and more clients were
[1:32] coming in and describing relationship
[1:35] dynamics and partners and family members
[1:37] who had personalities very consistent
[1:40] with what I was looking at in the lab
[1:42] and studying narcissism, and I thought,
[1:44] "What would happen if you taught folks
[1:47] who are going through these
[1:48] relationships that this is indeed a
[1:50] pattern? It's just not a difficult
[1:52] relationship. It's a pattern." And as I
[1:55] started to do that, for a lot of people
[1:57] it was a lightbulb moment. And what
[1:59] really struck me is that the world of
[2:02] mental health, there was very little
[2:03] literature looking at the impact of
[2:06] personality styles like narcissism on
[2:09] relationships. And I found that with a
[2:11] few tweaks, we really could make leaps
[2:13] and bounds with people who are going
[2:15] through these relationships and really
[2:18] identified as a real phenomenon that
[2:20] when a person is in any kind of close
[2:22] relationship with a narcissistic person,
[2:24] whether it's an intimate relationship, a
[2:26] familial relationship, particularly a
[2:28] parent or even a workplace relationship,
[2:31] very similar things happen to a person
[2:34] in one of those relationships. So, ever
[2:36] since, you know, for the past few
[2:37] decades, I've been really focused on
[2:38] documenting this and figure out ways
[2:42] that we can work with people who are
[2:43] going through these relationships
[2:45] clinically and help them feel sane and
[2:48] ultimately grow after they've left these
[2:50] relationships or even if they stay in
[2:52] them.
[2:54] I think there's many good books out
[2:56] there about narcissism and a lot of them
[2:57] are more in the research realm.
[3:00] Once we jump it into the
[3:02] self-help personal development space,
[3:06] one of the big errors I see is that the
[3:08] assumption is if somebody is in any kind
[3:11] of relationship with a narcissistic
[3:13] person, the only solution is to get out.
[3:16] And that is simply not accessible to the
[3:18] vast majority of people.
[3:21] Obviously, when we're taking on this
[3:24] issue of the problem with what we hear
[3:28] about narcissism and not everyone can
[3:30] leave,
[3:31] I'm very aware that in some
[3:32] relationships, it can be dangerous. And
[3:34] obviously in relationships where there's
[3:35] acute imminent danger, violence, we're
[3:38] now talking about safety plans. We're
[3:40] really talking about what traditionally
[3:42] has been talked about in the world of
[3:43] domestic violence. But in the vast
[3:45] majority of narcissistic relationships,
[3:47] there's no physical violence. There's no
[3:49] imminent threat of danger.
[3:51] What's happening is a person who is in a
[3:54] very, very confusing situation. But when
[3:56] the books are saying, "Well, if you're
[3:57] in a relationship with a narcissist,
[3:59] you've got to get out." Now people will
[4:02] often double down on what's happening in
[4:04] the relationship because you're saying,
[4:05] "Oh, I don't want to get out. So maybe
[4:07] that's not really what's happening,
[4:08] right?" It's a denial of what is
[4:10] happening in the relationship, which is
[4:12] a real risk. My work from the beginning
[4:15] has almost been agnostic about leaving.
[4:17] If a person has to stay, if a person
[4:19] wants to leave, they can still heal. The
[4:23] guidance is actually pretty similar on
[4:26] recovery and growth and all of that. The
[4:29] difference is, frankly, for the people
[4:31] who decide to leave, they're going to be
[4:33] dealing with a lot of kerfuffle in the
[4:34] beginning. There's going to be anger and
[4:36] how dare you and who do you think you
[4:38] are and post-separation abuse. For the
[4:40] people who stay, they're having to sort
[4:42] of navigate an ongoing stressor. But I
[4:45] do think it's a mistake for books that
[4:47] say, "Well, now that you know you're in
[4:48] one of these relationships, the next
[4:50] step is to get out." That's not at all
[4:52] the case. And since the beginning, and
[4:54] I've written multiple books on it, my
[4:55] first book on narcissism in
[4:57] relationships was called Should I Stay
[4:59] or Should I Go? I was already setting it
[5:01] out there as this is a choice. And one
[5:04] of the biggest elements that everyone
[5:06] needs to know about healing, it's one of
[5:08] the key elements of healing is something
[5:10] we call agency. Agency is just another
[5:13] word for choice. When a person's in a
[5:16] emotionally abusive relationship, like a
[5:18] narcissistic relationship, choice goes
[5:20] out the window. You don't feel like you
[5:22] can choose anything. You're kind of
[5:23] along for this manipulative, abusive
[5:25] ride. But when healing means choice,
[5:28] that means you do have a choice. You
[5:29] might say, "I'm not leaving this. I
[5:31] don't want to live separately from my
[5:33] kids." Or "I'm part of a big family
[5:35] system and this isn't going to work in
[5:36] my culture." It's knowing that I'm
[5:39] making this choice to not end this
[5:42] relationship or go no contact or cut it
[5:44] off. However, I'm also making the choice
[5:47] to engage with it differently. And
[5:49] that's really where my work has focused
[5:51] on this this concept of choice and that
[5:54] it's not always about leaving. And in
[5:56] fact, I'd say well over half of cases,
[5:58] it's not about leaving.
[6:00] Narcissism is definitely having its
[6:02] moment right now. So many people are
[6:04] using this word. so many people are
[6:06] talking about it, which actually gives
[6:08] me a little bit of a chuckle because
[6:10] I've been doing this work since the
[6:11] early 2000s and nobody was talking about
[6:14] it. In fact, my own mentor and grad from
[6:16] graduate school said, "What are you
[6:17] doing? Like, no, what is this? Like,
[6:19] this is a silly thing." I said, "No, no,
[6:21] I think there's something there." But
[6:23] really, anyone who's working in
[6:24] narcissism at that point, you were
[6:25] really kind of like way in the
[6:27] background. And then things changed.
[6:29] Things changed in geopolitics, social
[6:32] media came along, and all of these
[6:34] forces
[6:35] created this world where this in
[6:38] attention-seeking, this look at me
[6:40] became a really, really big thing. And
[6:43] even the patterns, the entitlement and
[6:44] the grandiosity, like, we were seeing
[6:46] this, we're seeing this in celebrity, we
[6:48] were seeing this in corporate spaces,
[6:49] we're seeing this in political spaces.
[6:52] And as world elections happened and all
[6:53] of that, this word was really kind of
[6:56] again having its moment. I would say
[6:58] pretty much since the 2016, 2018 and
[7:01] forward. And when we look at it, there's
[7:02] other words, toxic was the word of the
[7:05] year, gaslighting was the word of the
[7:07] year, even rizz, the young people's word
[7:10] for charisma, has even had its word of
[7:12] the year moment. So, all these
[7:13] narcissism-adjacent words are also sort
[7:16] of entering the discourse.
[7:18] So, I think there's a lot of social
[7:21] tectonic plates moved at the same time
[7:23] to make narcissism really have its
[7:26] moment. But it's always been there.
[7:28] I challenge anyone to open a history
[7:31] book for as long as there was a recorded
[7:33] human history, everybody written about
[7:35] in the books was narcissistic. They were
[7:37] grandiose, they were waging wars and
[7:40] killing innocent people. If they were
[7:41] not narcissistic, they might have been
[7:43] downright psychopathic. But this idea of
[7:45] people focused on power, dominance,
[7:48] control, selfishness with little
[7:51] apparent empathy for other people, these
[7:54] are the folks we've been writing about
[7:56] and talking about.
[7:57] Emotional abuse, physical abuse and
[7:59] violence in intimate relationships has
[8:01] been normative for a very long time,
[8:04] even in family systems. In fact, I'd
[8:06] argue now in 2026, we may actually be
[8:09] nicer to each other now than we ever
[8:11] have been in history. And even this word
[8:14] narcissism, it only entered the
[8:16] psychology space
[8:18] I don't know about a hundred, hundred
[8:19] twenty years ago. And even those
[8:21] original kinds of conversations about
[8:23] narcissism were more of what we think of
[8:25] as like that grandiose, self-enhancing,
[8:28] look at me kind of person. We've now
[8:30] developed a much more subtle
[8:32] understanding, but this dynamic has
[8:34] always been present. I would argue this
[8:36] dynamic has always caused lots of
[8:38] problems. I just don't think we became a
[8:41] trauma-informed and mental
[8:43] health-informed enough world until now
[8:46] to talk about it. But now, of course,
[8:49] that everybody's talking about it, we're
[8:51] not getting it right.
[8:53] When we think of narcissism clinically,
[8:54] we're talking about a personality style,
[8:57] right? There's lots of different kinds
[8:59] of personality styles out there, some
[9:01] more adaptive than others, things like
[9:03] agreeableness and conscientiousness.
[9:05] Narcissism is considered more of a
[9:07] maladaptive personality style, because
[9:10] in general, the traits that comprise
[9:12] narcissism put a person at odds with
[9:15] other people, right? There's the
[9:16] selfishness and the low empathy and all
[9:18] of that. And narcissism falls under a
[9:20] much bigger banner of a personality
[9:22] style called antagonism. So, it's sort
[9:24] of like if you view antagonism as a
[9:26] moon, narcissism is one of its big
[9:28] satellites, and other stuff hangs out
[9:30] there, like psychopathy and all of that.
[9:32] The most common core traits that we see
[9:35] in narcissism are what I call sort of
[9:37] the grandiosity complex, and that takes
[9:39] in stuff like arrogance, entitlement,
[9:42] sort of fantasy assumptions about their
[9:45] lives. I'm going to have the best car,
[9:47] I'm going to have the hottest partner,
[9:48] all of that. There's variable and low
[9:51] empathy.
[9:53] There is pathological selfishness.
[9:56] There is superficiality and vanity,
[9:58] really only being concerned with
[9:59] surface-level stuff, status-oriented
[10:01] things, that those sorts of issues.
[10:04] There is envy of other people, or they
[10:07] think other people envy them, so there
[10:09] can be a defensiveness. Attention,
[10:11] admiration, and validation seeking.
[10:14] All of those things together, and you
[10:16] kind of got to have them all
[10:18] come together as what we would consider
[10:20] narcissism.
[10:22] But now, when we get into where
[10:24] antagonism narcissism, sort of those
[10:26] things come together,
[10:27] what we start to see, too, is that
[10:29] narcissistic people don't do well in the
[10:32] face of frustration, stress, or
[10:34] disappointed. They can be very
[10:36] emotionally dysregulated, and that can
[10:38] mean that they lash out noisily,
[10:41] angrily, and reactively, or they become
[10:44] very silent, sullen, withdrawn, and
[10:47] withholding.
[10:49] They can be jealous, they can be
[10:51] competitive,
[10:52] they can be vindictive.
[10:54] So, the antagonism, sort of the
[10:56] antagonistic list, can get wider and
[10:59] wider, depending on sort of specific
[11:01] elements of the of the narcissistic
[11:03] person, but the key thing to remember
[11:06] when we're thinking about how to
[11:09] conceptualize what narcissism is,
[11:12] is that it's on a continuum from mild to
[11:14] severe. It's not an either-or. People
[11:17] ask the wrong question. They'll say,
[11:19] "Are they a narcissist or not?" And I'm
[11:20] like, "That's the wrong question." It's
[11:22] really a a question of how narcissistic
[11:25] is this person. I mean, obviously, at
[11:26] one level, not at all. But once we get
[11:29] into the narcissism spectrum, at the low
[11:31] end, we're talking about mildly
[11:33] narcissistic folks. This is where we're
[11:35] really talking about kind of like
[11:37] There's it's like a man baby. They're
[11:39] selfish, and they're they don't grow up,
[11:42] and they don't take on adult
[11:43] responsibilities. They are entitled, and
[11:46] they're grandiose, and they're still
[11:47] thinking and talking about the rocket
[11:49] ship they're going to build to the moon,
[11:51] or the flying truck, or whatever it is
[11:52] that they're trying to do. Their empathy
[11:55] is variable, but it's at a level
[11:58] that feels annoying and frustrating. You
[12:00] wouldn't want to be married to someone
[12:02] like this, because it is like being
[12:03] married to an overgrown teenager. If you
[12:05] were having to rely on them, this is a
[12:07] difficult parent to have, because the
[12:09] parent is sort of caught up in their
[12:10] sort of immature flights of fancy that
[12:13] they're not present for their child.
[12:14] But, a lot of us have friends who are
[12:16] mildly narcissistic. I mean, fun at a
[12:18] party, but not someone you're going to
[12:19] take your problems to.
[12:21] When you take the roller all the way up
[12:23] to the severe end of the narcissism
[12:25] spectrum, now you're talking about
[12:27] traits that have a vibe that's even more
[12:30] congruent with things like psychopathy,
[12:32] with seeing things like malignant
[12:33] narcissism. This is where all those
[12:36] traits become much more severe, much
[12:38] more severe entitlement. But, we also
[12:39] see other dynamics show up more
[12:41] profoundly. Control and things like
[12:43] isolation, taking advantage of
[12:46] vulnerabilities, or what we call
[12:47] exploitativeness.
[12:49] There can be coercion, there can be
[12:51] menace and threats, and really a sense
[12:53] of danger.
[12:54] People in a relationship with someone at
[12:56] that level of narcissism are actually
[12:58] terrorized. They're scared. They might
[13:01] look like they have symptoms, or may
[13:03] literally have complex post-traumatic
[13:05] stress. Most people have who are
[13:08] narcissistic, and most people in
[13:10] relationships with narcissistic people,
[13:12] it's falling in the middle of this
[13:14] spectrum. What I'd call almost like
[13:15] level four to seven narcissist. And here
[13:18] we're talking about the moderate
[13:19] narcissism. This is not without harm.
[13:22] These are relationships characterized by
[13:24] all the selfishness and variable
[13:26] empathy, but also there can be betrayal,
[13:28] lies, manipulation,
[13:31] instability,
[13:33] anger, blame shifting, all the stuff,
[13:36] and it's there pretty consistently.
[13:39] At the severe end, the person is often
[13:41] so controlled and isolated, we're often
[13:43] having to do very, very different kinds
[13:45] of intervention. At the mild end, it is
[13:47] what it seems like. Again, you're you're
[13:49] sort of dealing with an overgrown child.
[13:51] The moderate end, it does do real harm.
[13:54] And in fact, I think in this moderate
[13:55] part of the spectrum is where the field
[13:57] of mental health comes up short. And
[14:00] even the people in the relationships
[14:01] aren't quite sure what it is they're
[14:03] seeing. So, that's what narcissism is. A
[14:05] big mistake people think is that
[14:08] narcissism's a disorder, and it's not.
[14:10] There is something called narcissistic
[14:11] personality disorder. And really, it's
[14:13] taking all those traits,
[14:16] and a licensed mental health clinician
[14:18] recognizing that all those traits
[14:21] are long-standing and a long pattern and
[14:23] resulting in problems for a person. So,
[14:25] there's plenty of people out there who
[14:27] are narcissistic, but who have never
[14:28] seen a psychologist or someone like that
[14:31] and gotten a diagnosis. And there's
[14:33] people out there who have been diagnosed
[14:35] with narcissistic personality disorder
[14:36] and frankly, their narcissism is no more
[14:39] severe than someone who hasn't been
[14:40] diagnosed. It just requires someone
[14:42] going into therapy and a lot of
[14:44] therapists don't give this diagnosis for
[14:47] a variety of reasons. The stigma,
[14:49] insurance companies, the whole thing.
[14:51] The important thing to know about
[14:52] personality is that it's stable over the
[14:55] lifespan. Now, there's some interesting
[14:57] work out there that suggests some
[14:58] flexibility, Dan Siegel's work where it
[15:01] can actually be there's some sense that
[15:03] personality can kind of be shifted
[15:05] through therapeutic work, but my
[15:07] argument would be the more maladaptive
[15:09] styles like narcissism are much, much
[15:12] less amenable to any kind of shift as a
[15:15] result of therapy. And there's actually
[15:17] a really interesting study done in 2024
[15:20] by Orth
[15:22] that looked at this idea of the traits
[15:24] comprising narcissism as being stable
[15:26] over the lifespan. In fact, if anything,
[15:28] in older age, there was a little bit of
[15:30] a drop-off. That kind of tracks.
[15:33] Takes a little bit of energy to be a
[15:35] bragging arrogant narcissist. You got to
[15:37] walk around, you got to brag. It's
[15:38] time-consuming. I think as people get
[15:40] older, work means something different.
[15:43] Social relationships take on a different
[15:45] tenor. You'll see a softening in older
[15:47] age, but what they did show is a
[15:49] stability in these traits over the
[15:51] lifespan, which really, really hearkens
[15:53] to the idea that narcissism is in fact a
[15:55] personality style. Personality is kind
[15:59] of resistant to change. Even agreeable
[16:01] people, a flexible trait, you're not
[16:03] going to take an agreeable person and
[16:06] turn them into someone antagonistic. I
[16:07] mean, that's would be a strange thing to
[16:09] do in therapy, but I mean,
[16:11] theoretically, if you could change an
[16:12] antagonistic to agreeable, if the belief
[16:14] is there, you should be able to take an
[16:16] an person and turn them antagonistic.
[16:18] Now, one would argue, "No, because
[16:20] agreeableness helps us get along with
[16:21] other people." But, it's it's a
[16:24] personality. It's not likely to change,
[16:26] and it's stable. And that's what
[16:27] narcissism is.
[16:29] Those are the traits. Narcissism
[16:31] translates
[16:33] into a whole bunch of behaviors,
[16:35] manipulation,
[16:38] gaslighting, invalidation of other
[16:41] people, blame shifting, lack of
[16:44] accountability, all that stuff is
[16:46] associated with those traits. But, the
[16:49] other piece to remember about narcissism
[16:52] is we have these traits, the low empathy
[16:54] and the entitlement and so on and so
[16:55] forth. But, underlying all of that,
[16:59] what appears to be the case is this
[17:01] unprocessed insecurity, shame,
[17:04] vulnerability, and this very, very
[17:07] fragile ego, fragile sense of self. So,
[17:10] what that means is the best way to think
[17:12] of it is that the narcissistic person is
[17:14] this cauldron of insecurity, and they
[17:16] develop this suit of armor, the
[17:18] entitlement, the grandiosity, the
[17:20] selfishness, to kind of walk through the
[17:22] world as though they're somehow more
[17:24] special than anyone to keep all that
[17:26] insecurity at bay. But, it also explains
[17:29] why narcissistic people get angry so
[17:32] quickly, get they're reactive so
[17:34] quickly, because if anything pings all
[17:36] of that unprocessed shame, it's like,
[17:39] boom, it comes right at you. So, it
[17:41] could be a
[17:43] bad review at work. It could be a
[17:45] passing comment at home. It could be the
[17:48] sense that you gave too much attention
[17:50] to an attractive waiter. It could be
[17:52] that you showed up late to their
[17:53] birthday party. You never know what's
[17:54] going to set someone one of these
[17:56] personalities off. But, whatever it is,
[17:58] it hits that shame. And instead of being
[18:00] vulnerable with that shame, the
[18:02] narcissistic person lashes out at anyone
[18:04] who activated it. And so, that
[18:07] insecurity is always there. It's like,
[18:08] think of it as a volcano. It always
[18:10] feels like it's puffing out a bit, and
[18:11] then at one point it's going to blow.
[18:13] That's what it is. But, the core of the
[18:15] narcissistic person is very, very
[18:17] unprocessed shame and vulnerability.
[18:20] There was a really great study that came
[18:22] out, oh, I want to say 2018 by Krizan
[18:25] and Herlache. And they were talking
[18:28] about this thing called the narcissism
[18:29] spectrum model, the vulnerable and the
[18:31] grandiose, and the different
[18:32] presentations. And one thing that these
[18:35] authors came to was this idea of sort of
[18:37] entitlement kind of being the trunk of
[18:39] the tree. This consistently cut through
[18:42] all subtypes of narcissism. Whereas the
[18:45] grandiose narcissist may be more
[18:47] arrogant and anti-great and extroverted,
[18:50] we don't see that in vulnerable
[18:51] narcissism. But both groups remain very,
[18:55] very entitled. That Again, entitled to
[18:57] special treatment, entitled to not have
[19:00] to follow the rules. Just this general
[19:02] sense of I'm special. Bad things should
[19:05] never happen to me. Nothing is ever fair
[19:07] to me. Those tend to be the rants. But
[19:10] the entitlement tends to be a universal.
[19:12] I think if we cut looked across all
[19:14] narcissistic people, we might see some
[19:17] of the qualities to greater or lesser
[19:19] degrees, but the entitlement remains
[19:21] consistent. Entitlement is challenging
[19:23] because even that isn't always exactly
[19:26] We're not always clear what it is that
[19:28] we're looking at. Like for example, the
[19:30] entitled person really feels like they
[19:32] should not ever have to experience
[19:33] stress. How can there be traffic? I
[19:35] can't believe there's traffic on a day I
[19:38] have to drive. You know, like, well,
[19:39] because there's traffic every day at
[19:42] 8:00. This is not a newsflash, but it's
[19:45] the day they had to drive. So how dare
[19:47] there be traffic? So even some of those
[19:50] things we don't always immediately clock
[19:52] them as entitlement, but it's such a
[19:53] universal quality of these
[19:56] relationships. And so that research I
[19:58] found that study really fascinating
[20:00] because it really tied together this
[20:01] idea of what does sort of organize this
[20:04] very kind of subtle, nuanced, varied
[20:07] trait. And I agree with their assessment
[20:10] that it's entitlement.
[20:12] The key to remember about a personality
[20:14] style like narcissism is that it's made
[20:17] up of multiple strands, right? So some
[20:19] people say, well, is every selfish
[20:20] person narcissistic? Isn't a person
[20:22] who's just entitled and a jerk in a
[20:24] restaurant? Is that person narcissistic?
[20:26] Maybe.
[20:27] But it's if you think of it, all these
[20:29] traits have to hang together.
[20:31] Selfishness by itself does not qualify a
[20:35] person as narcissistic. Entitlement by
[20:38] itself does not qualify a person as
[20:40] narcissistic. Think of it this way. If I
[20:43] gave you an egg, you don't say, "Thanks
[20:46] for the pasta." You don't say, "Thanks
[20:48] for the cake." You say, "Thanks for the
[20:50] egg." Because for that egg to be pasta,
[20:53] for that egg to be
[20:56] a cake, for that egg to be egg salad,
[20:59] it has to be combined with other things,
[21:02] right? So we An egg is an egg until it
[21:04] starts combining with other stuff.
[21:06] Entitlement is entitlement until it
[21:08] starts combining with other stuff. Now,
[21:09] is the probability
[21:11] that an entitled person could be
[21:13] narcissistic higher? Absolutely, because
[21:15] it's a defining trait. But in and of
[21:17] itself, for example, a person who may
[21:19] have grown up with tremendous wealth and
[21:21] power through family connections may
[21:24] present to the world as entitled, but it
[21:26] may you may actually find out their
[21:28] empathy is quite intact. So they might
[21:31] expect special treatment cuz they've
[21:32] always gotten special treatment. But if
[21:34] you say like, "Hey, you weren't very
[21:37] nice to that person." That entitled
[21:40] person may be very accountable and say,
[21:42] "I'm so sorry. I was rushing. I had no
[21:45] right." You wouldn't see that
[21:46] accountability in a narcissistic person.
[21:48] So it's not just one trait, it's all the
[21:51] traits together.
[21:52] It's the traits all the traits together
[21:54] also showing up in these behaviors. And
[21:57] then we'll see, for example, the absence
[21:59] of certain things. Narcissistic people
[22:01] don't tend to be, for example, genuinely
[22:03] accountable. So to say a selfish person
[22:05] is narcissistic is a bit of a leap. We'd
[22:08] have to establish other conditions
[22:10] before we take one trait and jump it,
[22:12] but this is a real problem in the
[22:13] current, especially the online
[22:15] conversation about narcissism. There's
[22:17] people out there saying, "My boyfriend
[22:18] cheated on me. He's a narcissist." I'm
[22:20] like, "Maybe he is, but I need to hear
[22:22] more of your story." Like give us more.
[22:25] If all the guy did was go to Las Vegas
[22:27] and cheat on you, he may be a jerk. I'm
[22:29] not sure he's narcissistic. We'd need to
[22:31] ask more questions. So, it's not that
[22:34] simple, and I think we're trying
[22:36] online and in other spaces to simplify
[22:40] something that's actually a kind of
[22:41] nuanced and subtle construct.
[22:44] The evidence base supports the idea that
[22:46] narcissism is not something someone is
[22:48] born with, but it's more of a social
[22:50] developmental phenomenon, just like all
[22:52] personality. Personality isn't Someone's
[22:55] not born narcissistic. Someone's not
[22:57] necessarily born agreeable. Now, there
[23:00] is a biological piece to our
[23:01] personality. That's called temperament.
[23:03] Okay? We're born with temperament.
[23:06] That's inherited. That can set up a
[23:08] biological vulnerability depending on
[23:10] the child's temperament. Some Some kids
[23:12] do have more difficult to soothe um
[23:15] behaviorally difficult, if you will,
[23:17] temperaments. What happens then? The
[23:20] rest of personality is largely shaped by
[23:22] the environment. Does a child feel safe?
[23:24] Are there safe adults to attach to? Is
[23:26] there consistency? Is there freedom from
[23:29] violence? Is the child attuned to all
[23:31] the stuff, right? And you put all that
[23:33] together, and personality shapes. Now,
[23:36] personality doesn't really kind of I
[23:38] always say call it like a Jell-O mold,
[23:40] right? It's pure liquid when somebody's
[23:42] a little kid. In adolescence, the Jell-O
[23:44] mold's kind of bouncy. And by the time
[23:46] we get to somewhere between 25, 26 years
[23:48] old, you now have a Jell-O mold that'll
[23:50] pop, and it'll hold its shape. And
[23:52] that's really because the frontal lobes
[23:54] of the brain are the last part of the
[23:55] brain and a lot of stuff that comprises
[23:58] personality sits there and its
[24:00] relationships with other parts of the
[24:01] brain, especially things like
[24:03] inhibition, holding back on some of our
[24:05] behavior. Teenagers do and say what they
[24:07] want. By the time we get into adulthood,
[24:09] we learn to hold back on that. Even
[24:12] things like empathy tend to be a little
[24:13] bit more conditional in adolescence,
[24:15] more consistent in adulthood. So, over
[24:18] that 25 years, our first 25 years of
[24:20] life, personality shaping, I personally
[24:23] don't feel comfortable using the word
[24:25] narcissistic in any consistent way
[24:27] unless somebody's well over 25 years of
[24:29] age. And I always say
[24:31] narcissism is one of those stories that
[24:33] could be told backwards, but not
[24:34] forward. Show me a sullen, combative,
[24:38] difficult, selfish
[24:41] and I'll say call me in like 10 years
[24:42] and we'll talk.
[24:44] But show me a difficult, combative,
[24:47] selfish,
[24:49] unempathic 27-year-old,
[24:52] I'm like, yeah, probably. And we're
[24:53] going to look back and they were very
[24:55] likely a really tough 17-year-old, too.
[24:57] So, difficult teenagers don't always
[24:59] become narcissistic, but difficult
[25:01] adults were almost always difficult
[25:03] teenagers, if that makes sense. And
[25:06] listen,
[25:07] other than one time in my entire career,
[25:10] I have very, very rarely encountered
[25:12] cases where every sibling in a
[25:15] multi-sibling family was narcissistic.
[25:17] It's usually one, and then the other
[25:19] siblings are not. I mean, they may be
[25:21] anxious, they may have other stuff going
[25:22] on, but they're not narcissistic. And
[25:24] so, the question being becomes,
[25:28] when do we really know someone's
[25:29] narcissistic? And I would argue,
[25:31] probably not until they're over 25 years
[25:33] of age, but the signs and the signals
[25:35] were there all along. It's just I don't
[25:37] like using that word in people, where
[25:39] especially adolescents, where there's a
[25:41] kind of developmental appropriateness to
[25:43] sort of
[25:45] I don't know. We call it I calling it a
[25:46] self-centeredness is that it's a lot of
[25:48] work to be an adolescent. An adolescent
[25:50] is kind of this really difficult
[25:51] combination of a toddler and an adult,
[25:54] right? So, they're still having tantrums
[25:55] like a little kid, they're being viewed
[25:58] as adults by the world, and so a lot of
[26:01] teenagers are great with their friends
[26:02] and terrible to their parents. So, their
[26:04] parents think they're narcissistic,
[26:05] their friends think they're cool. By the
[26:07] time that all tracks into adulthood,
[26:11] many people will notice like there's
[26:13] something a little off about this
[26:14] person, but the challenge with
[26:15] narcissism is they can present different
[26:17] ways with different people, but that
[26:19] real core antagonism, it needs a minute
[26:21] for that to sort of set.
[26:24] There's this concept that I wrote about
[26:27] write about called the C-suite when we
[26:29] talk about narcissism, which is fitting,
[26:31] right? That's C-suite leadership. But
[26:34] the piece we have to remember about
[26:36] narcissism is if a person was leading
[26:38] with just selfishness, entitlement,
[26:42] grandiosity,
[26:44] even stuff like victimhood and all this
[26:45] other stuff that, you know, woe is me,
[26:47] why isn't everything going my way?
[26:49] Wouldn't be very attractive, would it?
[26:51] And yet, narcissistic people seem to be
[26:54] very attractive, having their moment,
[26:56] getting all the attention. Why is that?
[26:58] That takes us to this idea of the
[26:59] C-suite. And the C-suite are these
[27:01] traits, which all happen to start with
[27:03] C. Things like charm, charisma,
[27:07] confidence, credentials,
[27:10] comfort, curiosity. What do I mean by
[27:13] those? These are traits that when you
[27:15] first meet a narcissistic person,
[27:17] they're often what you're going to
[27:18] encounter. And they're traits and
[27:21] qualities that the world often
[27:23] encounters with a narcissistic person.
[27:25] So, they think they're meeting the most
[27:27] interesting, engaging, successful
[27:29] person. So, charm and charisma are
[27:31] exactly what they sound like. The very
[27:33] sort of socially successful, smooth,
[27:37] attuned, work a room, raconteur, be able
[27:41] to hold a conversation kind of a person.
[27:44] They really there's a magnetic quality.
[27:46] Not to all narcissists, but to many
[27:50] narcissistic people. It's why they're so
[27:52] great in politics. It's why they can be
[27:54] so great in business.
[27:56] Then we get into the stuff, the
[27:57] confidence part. The confidence part is
[27:59] really interesting, because in the
[28:01] leadership literature, there's been a
[28:03] real suggestion that the reason
[28:04] narcissistic people so often get
[28:07] promoted, and especially get promoted
[28:09] into leadership, is because they're so
[28:12] good at communicating their sense of
[28:15] confidence, even when they don't have
[28:16] any capacity. They may not know
[28:18] anything, but they're able to say like,
[28:20] I know that and I've got that. Whereas
[28:22] most of the rest of us have a
[28:24] probably more than that more neuroses
[28:26] than we need. We're like, oh, I'm not
[28:27] sure if I know that enough. Narcissistic
[28:30] person isn't fettered by things like, do
[28:32] I know how to do something? They'll
[28:33] communicate that, and the people making
[28:35] the decisions are like, well, this
[28:36] person seems to got it all together.
[28:38] Let's promote them. So, that's what I'm
[28:40] saying comes out initially at least as
[28:42] this communicated confidence. And the
[28:44] credentials part is they may not even be
[28:47] true. The narcissistic person is that
[28:50] person who manages to stick where they
[28:52] went into college in the first or second
[28:54] sentence after they meet you. So, it's
[28:56] you know, it's it like, yeah, well,
[28:58] yeah, I've been working at a Fortune 500
[29:00] company for a while. Yes, well, well, I
[29:02] know when I was at Harvard, da da da da.
[29:04] So, they're really quick at being able
[29:06] to say like, yeah, when I worked with
[29:07] that famous director, they just get it
[29:09] in quickly. So, it's sort of like, I'm a
[29:11] player. I'm interesting. The comfort
[29:14] piece,
[29:16] that was something that hit me about
[29:18] again, it goes along with that
[29:20] communicated confidence. Narcissistic
[29:22] people initially when you meet them or
[29:25] in certain settings, can communicate,
[29:27] I've got it all figured out. I know how
[29:29] to do this. I'll take care of it. Don't
[29:31] you worry about a thing. It's very
[29:33] related to their sense of or their need
[29:35] for, I should say, their control. So,
[29:37] there's this comfort people may feel
[29:39] with like, well, this person's going to
[29:40] take care of everything. Everything is
[29:42] going to get figured out. And so, they
[29:44] can really sweep in as though like, I
[29:46] got it. I I got this. I got this. Don't
[29:48] you worry. And that can create comfort.
[29:50] And why does that comfort piece matter?
[29:52] Because it can make this narcissistic
[29:54] person seem very attractive, right? The
[29:57] charm, the charisma. We're told that
[29:59] these are valuable characteristics in a
[30:01] person, potentially in a partner,
[30:04] certainly in the workplace.
[30:05] And it also sets up this issue. The
[30:07] C-suite creates this really, really
[30:10] interesting problem or puzzle in the
[30:13] world of narcissism. The less contact
[30:16] you have with a narcissistic person, the
[30:19] less likely you are to see all of the
[30:23] unpleasant traits. You're more likely to
[30:26] see the kind of confidence, charisma,
[30:29] all the stuff that they want you to see.
[30:31] The more time a narcissistic person
[30:34] spends with people, the more some of
[30:36] those masks come off.
[30:38] And so, that's why an intimate partner,
[30:41] a child, a family member, an employee is
[30:44] often going to see the worst of the
[30:46] narcissistic person. There's a power
[30:48] differential, and like I said, the masks
[30:49] are coming off. They the narcissist no
[30:51] longer has to win that person over. But
[30:55] it's for why for the longest time people
[30:57] who are in any kind of narcissistic
[30:59] relationship
[31:00] feel sort of unheard or unseen cuz
[31:03] everyone's saying, "Oh, your mom's the
[31:05] best." Or, "Wow, you're married to such
[31:08] a great guy." And so, the person in the
[31:10] relationship has got to be, "I've got to
[31:12] be the one reading this wrong cuz
[31:13] everybody seems to like them, and
[31:16] everyone thinks they're great." And it's
[31:18] like the emperor's new clothes. I can't
[31:20] be the only one who sees this. And
[31:23] that's one of the more sinister elements
[31:26] of narcissism because what does happen
[31:28] is all these C-suite traits can lead the
[31:31] world to think this person's terrific.
[31:33] Initially, you might have thought this
[31:35] person was really cool.
[31:37] Then you see the truth of it, but the
[31:38] world still holds that initial kind of
[31:40] take.
[31:42] As I see it, there five distinct forms
[31:45] of narcissism. Grandiose,
[31:48] vulnerable, malignant,
[31:51] communal, and self-righteous.
[31:54] Each has very different features and
[31:56] different presentations. The core is the
[31:58] same, but the frosting on the cake is
[32:00] quite different.
[32:01] Grandiose narcissism is the form of
[32:03] narcissism that we've almost always
[32:05] traditionally equated with this word
[32:07] narcissism. The word grandiose tells us
[32:10] everything. These tend to be They have
[32:12] all the same the low empathy and the
[32:13] entitlement, but the grandiosity's
[32:15] really taking center stage. They're
[32:17] arrogant. They brag. They're snobby.
[32:20] They have all the answers. They can
[32:21] often be quite extroverted. So, in this
[32:23] form of narcissism, we see the person
[32:25] who holds court at a party. The charm
[32:27] and the charisma can really be on tap
[32:30] here. But they need a lot of attention.
[32:32] So, there's a lot of attention-seeking,
[32:34] and validation-seeking, and
[32:36] admiration-seeking, and
[32:37] self-enhancement. They have to be the
[32:41] center of attention. And so, as long as
[32:43] they're center of attention,
[32:44] everything's fine. And they usually set
[32:46] their lives up to be the center of
[32:49] attention. So, that's the grandiose
[32:50] presentation. Again, it's sort of that
[32:52] garden variety of narcissistic person
[32:54] that we often think of.
[32:56] Vulnerable narcissism is a model of
[32:59] narcissism that really only in the last
[33:00] 25 to 30 years has really gotten focus.
[33:03] And it is a It's very, very different.
[33:06] Again, core is the same, but it's very
[33:08] different than grandiose narcissism
[33:10] because at first blush to a lot of
[33:12] people, it doesn't even look like
[33:14] narcissism.
[33:16] Vulnerable narcissistic folks can
[33:18] actually be socially anxious, have
[33:20] negative mood states like depression,
[33:22] they're often victimized, sullen,
[33:25] disenfranchised,
[33:27] aggrieved, angry at the world,
[33:29] suspicious, feel like life has passed
[33:32] them by, but there's also the low
[33:34] empathy and the entitlement. But people
[33:36] will say, "If somebody is that down on
[33:38] their luck, how does this grandiosity
[33:40] show up?" Well, it shows up in what I
[33:42] call sort of aggrieved entitlement. "I'm
[33:45] smarter than everyone here. How am I not
[33:47] making more money than them?" Well,
[33:50] "It's easy for him to succeed. I'm 20
[33:52] times smarter than him. I just didn't
[33:53] have the trust fund." So, it's this kind
[33:56] of "I'm great. I'm really smart, but the
[33:59] world never saw how great I was." And
[34:02] this "Well, why should I have to try so
[34:04] hard?" Or "I'm not working for some
[34:05] dum-dum where I'm so much smarter than
[34:08] them. I'm not taking orders for
[34:09] someone." It's not unusual for
[34:11] vulnerable narcissistic people to go
[34:13] from job to job to job and have troubles
[34:16] with things like hierarchy in a job
[34:18] because they can't get along with other
[34:20] people. They think they're smarter than
[34:22] everyone. That's the grandiosity.
[34:25] The tricky bit with vulnerable
[34:26] narcissism, you don't see as much of the
[34:28] charm and the charisma. You can sort of
[34:30] see this kind of sullen victimized
[34:32] confidence. Like,
[34:33] "Yeah, I know more than them.
[34:36] Obviously, I could fix that, but nobody
[34:39] ever trusts me to." So, you get this
[34:41] kind of double dose of arrogance and
[34:43] neurosis, and you're not quite sure what
[34:46] you're looking at. And because they're
[34:47] not as socially skilled, they're not
[34:50] walking in and dazzling the room, we
[34:52] don't even read it as narcissism. It's
[34:54] just that that It almost like hit you
[34:56] from behind all that again that being
[34:58] aggrieved and the angry and the sullen.
[35:00] It's a And if you're in a relationship
[35:02] with someone like this, it's like always
[35:03] having to carry around this big wet
[35:05] blanket. They're always unhappy. Like,
[35:08] "How long do we have to stay here? This
[35:10] wedding makes me sick. How could they
[35:11] spend so much money?" So, like
[35:13] everything becomes heavy and ick, and
[35:16] there's no capacity to be happy for
[35:18] other people. But because they look
[35:20] anxious, because they can look sad,
[35:21] because there's a lot of failure to
[35:23] launch in vulnerable narcissism, it
[35:26] tends to evoke emotions like pity from
[35:28] other people. So, whereas grandiose
[35:30] narcissism, you're like a bit dazzly,
[35:33] vulnerable narcissism is a bit sad. And
[35:35] what is interesting is that in grandiose
[35:38] narcissism,
[35:40] they actually do have pretty strong
[35:42] egos. Like, well, solid, healthier egos,
[35:45] I should say. Which is to say that if
[35:47] you put a grandiose narcissistic person
[35:49] in therapy, you could actually probably
[35:51] tweak things a little bit. But with
[35:53] vulnerable narcissism, the it's such a
[35:55] so much more complicated. There is so
[35:57] much more victimhood that can be a
[35:59] little bit harder to access that from a
[36:01] therapeutic standpoint. But it it looks
[36:04] different, but that core entitlement,
[36:06] grandiosity, low empathy, selfishness,
[36:09] even attention-seeking, but the
[36:11] attention-seeking isn't so much the
[36:13] "Look at me. Aren't I great?" but rather
[36:17] it's more of the
[36:20] I mean, I can't believe you're watching
[36:22] that nonsense on television. I could I
[36:24] could do that 20 times better right here
[36:26] and now. I could cook that meal. You're
[36:27] watching a cooking show. So, it's the "I
[36:30] could do Look at me. I could be better."
[36:32] But it's not put me on the stage.
[36:35] Malignant narcissism is often considered
[36:37] to be the most severe manifestation of
[36:39] narcissism. It's here that we see more
[36:42] interpersonally dangerous traits. Things
[36:44] like Again, the same old stuff, the low
[36:47] empathy and the grandiosity. All of that
[36:49] is present, but now we're also seeing
[36:51] things like lots of control, power,
[36:54] dominance, meanness, exploitativeness,
[36:57] vindictiveness,
[36:59] coercion.
[37:01] The malignant narcissistic person is
[37:03] much more cold, much more callous, much
[37:05] more fearless, and and
[37:08] um again, willing to take advantage of
[37:11] the other person.
[37:12] That's not to say that the malignant
[37:14] narcissistic person initially won't
[37:16] appear and as charming or charismatic,
[37:19] they can. But that kind of dazzly
[37:21] element, that fades pretty quickly. And
[37:24] it goes into a much more controlling.
[37:26] We'll see things like for example,
[37:27] pathological jealousy is not unusual in
[37:30] a very malignant narcissist. And you'll
[37:32] see more and more dynamics of things
[37:33] like isolation in these relationships.
[37:37] The key difference that we'd observe
[37:39] between narcissism and psychopathy.
[37:41] Psychopathy is much more rare, but also
[37:44] in a psychopathic person, we're not
[37:46] seeing that internal cauldron of sort of
[37:48] shame and and vulnerability and fragile
[37:52] ego. That's not That's not operating.
[37:55] The malignant narcissistic person still
[37:57] knows some of what they're doing is
[37:59] wrong. The amount of guilt they're going
[38:01] to feel is far less than in less severe
[38:03] or different forms of narcissism, but
[38:05] they're still going to feel a little.
[38:07] Whereas in a psychopathic person, there
[38:09] is a very very cold-blooded kind of feel
[38:13] to that. So it would be things around
[38:16] again, the the sense of guilt, the sense
[38:19] of remorse, the coldness, the severity.
[38:22] And a big difference too is in
[38:24] psychopathic people, we see what was
[38:26] called a down-regulated autonomic
[38:28] nervous system. The stuff that in a
[38:30] normal human being gets us a little bit
[38:32] aroused and like scared, you know, even
[38:35] the idea of doing something bad. Like
[38:37] go, take that take that $20 bill off
[38:39] their desk. You'd like, I can't I can't
[38:41] do that. I can't do that. That's wrong.
[38:43] Our eyes get wide, our hearts start
[38:44] racing even at the thought of doing
[38:46] something bad. That's our autonomic
[38:48] nervous system. It's sort of it's sort
[38:50] of a driver to higher order things like
[38:51] a conscience. Psychopathic person, their
[38:54] autonomic nervous system doesn't do
[38:55] that. They'll do the bad thing and they
[38:57] won't even get a rise out of it. In
[38:58] fact, that's one argument of why
[39:00] psychopathic people can do more and more
[39:02] and more and more dangerous things just
[39:04] to feel something because they don't get
[39:06] that autonomic arousal. A malignant
[39:08] narcissistic person won't have that
[39:10] similar absence of autonomic arousal and
[39:13] then we will still see some real fear. A
[39:16] psychopathic person for example, let's
[39:17] say even we're thinking about like white
[39:19] collar corporate crime. A psychopathic
[39:22] person could pull off that kind of white
[39:24] collar crime and not give a damn about
[39:27] what happens to their family or their
[39:29] former business associates. A malignant
[39:31] narcissistic person will probably get in
[39:34] there and try to put some resources
[39:36] aside and feel bad that they hurt their
[39:38] family like that or try to make sure
[39:40] that some of the people at the company
[39:41] walk off at something. That would be
[39:43] sort of an example of where we'd see
[39:45] some of that splitting off point.
[39:46] Malignant narcissist is still going to
[39:48] think, "I didn't do anything wrong." but
[39:50] they know they're going to get caught
[39:51] and they will feel bad for the people
[39:53] who are close to them. Psychopathic
[39:55] person's not going to care.
[39:57] Communal narcissism's an interesting
[39:59] form of narcissism because almost all
[40:01] other forms of narcissism are about
[40:03] self-enhancement. What can I get from
[40:05] me? What can I do for me? How can I look
[40:07] good? The communal narcissistic person
[40:09] though really focuses on doing for other
[40:13] people to get that thing we call
[40:15] narcissistic supply. That validation to
[40:17] sort of pump themselves up. So, the
[40:19] communal narcissistic person will
[40:21] actually look to the world like someone
[40:22] who's very humanitarian or very
[40:24] rescue-y. They rescue animals and give
[40:27] to charity and and bring people meals
[40:29] when they're sick and they're that
[40:31] person. So, you'd think, "What the
[40:33] heck's narcissistic about that? That
[40:34] feels very empathic." Well, it's being
[40:37] done in the service of other people
[40:39] giving praise. "Wow, you're amazing.
[40:42] Like you do so much for so many. You
[40:45] saved all the puppies. You saved all the
[40:46] elephants. You fed all the people. You
[40:49] did so many good things. You've raised
[40:50] so much money. If they do those things
[40:52] and they don't get all that praise, they
[40:54] will get prickly. And in other
[40:57] relationships in their lives where
[40:59] they're not being told that they're the
[41:00] humanitarian of the world, they will
[41:03] they can be as prickly as all other
[41:04] forms of narcissism. What is interesting
[41:07] is the communal narcissist will, for
[41:08] example, make a big meal you didn't ask
[41:11] for for an occasion you didn't ask for.
[41:13] You'll even say, "I specifically said
[41:15] I'm going to be coming for an hour."
[41:17] They would spend 4 hours cooking.
[41:18] They'll say, "I spent 4 hours cooking
[41:20] for you.
[41:21] I told everyone I've said." And they'll
[41:22] even put on social media, "Just spent 4
[41:24] hours cooking for the fam." That the fam
[41:27] specifically said, "We all have to be
[41:29] other places."
[41:30] And the communal narcissist will then
[41:32] get enraged because the communal act
[41:35] wasn't met with the validation that they
[41:38] wanted. So, that kind of gives someone a
[41:40] feel. And then the the communal,
[41:42] especially like a narcissistic parent,
[41:43] will say, "You know, all I do is love.
[41:45] All I do is give. All I do is try. All I
[41:49] do is love on you. And all I get back is
[41:51] this nothing. I'm a saint. I'm a saint
[41:53] for all I do." One could see how it
[41:56] would be so maddening and how it would
[41:58] play on people feeling guilty in these
[42:01] relationships, often giving in just to
[42:03] prop up that saintly version of the
[42:05] communal narcissist. When we shift to
[42:08] self-righteous narcissism, this was once
[42:11] There's an old word we used in the world
[42:13] of psychology and psychiatry called
[42:15] anankastic, which nowadays we use the
[42:17] term obsessive-compulsive. Not
[42:19] hand-washing obsessive-compulsive, but
[42:22] obsessively ordered and controlled about
[42:25] the environment obsessive-compulsive.
[42:28] In self-righteous narcissistic people,
[42:30] we see an almost excessive
[42:34] adherence to the rules, but in a way
[42:36] that serves them in a very morally
[42:38] superior way.
[42:40] "I do everything about it by the book."
[42:41] And if so, somebody bends even bends a
[42:43] rule, bends a rule, they'll say like,
[42:45] "Uh, I'm not going to cancel that
[42:47] reservation." They will treat you as
[42:50] though you've now committed a mortal
[42:51] sin. So, it's very judgmental, very
[42:54] moralistic, very dismissive if you veer
[42:58] from the rules that the self-righteous
[43:00] narcissistic person thinks are right,
[43:03] then they will often just sort of kick
[43:05] you out of their life. Self-righteous
[43:07] narcissistic people can be very
[43:08] financially controlling. They can also
[43:11] be very miserly. They have plenty of
[43:13] money, but they will they never use it
[43:16] to help someone. They might loan it to a
[43:18] family member, but at an extortionate
[43:20] loan rate. I mean, it's it's they're
[43:22] very very strange about money, and if
[43:24] they did give someone money, they'll
[43:25] hold it over them for the rest of their
[43:27] lives. But again, it's very judgy, very
[43:30] almost workaholicky, too. It's work or
[43:33] activity or doing to the to the neglect
[43:37] of like close relationships. And again,
[43:39] the usual stuff, the low empathy, the
[43:41] selfishness.
[43:43] The attention-seeking is less about the
[43:45] look at me, like my social media posts
[43:48] tell me I'm great, but it's more of the
[43:51] being seen in a certain way, of this
[43:54] most morally upright kind of person. And
[43:58] the one thing to remember about all
[44:00] these narcissistic types, the grandiose,
[44:02] the vulnerable, the malignant, the
[44:04] communal, and the self-righteous,
[44:06] they often combine and blend. So, for
[44:08] example, it wouldn't be unusual to see a
[44:10] narcissistic person with both malignant
[44:13] and vulnerable features. It's very very
[44:15] common to see a grandiose narcissistic
[44:17] person, but when things stop going their
[44:20] way, the vulnerable features pop out.
[44:22] It's like one of those weebly dolls,
[44:24] wobbly dolls, that once the thing falls,
[44:27] the other side pops out, and that's that
[44:29] vulnerable piece. If a vulnerably
[44:31] narcissistic person all of a sudden made
[44:33] a lot of money and became all that, we
[44:36] would see a very grandiose presentation
[44:38] pop up.
[44:39] A malignant narcissistic person who has
[44:41] communal features, that would be a cult
[44:43] leader, right? I'm going to save the
[44:45] world. Allow me to save the world, and
[44:47] then I'm going to exploit all of you.
[44:49] So, all those features come together.
[44:50] So, in all of my clinical practice, very
[44:53] rarely do we see someone who's a clean
[44:56] sort of example of just one of these. We
[44:58] see them intersperse and a lot of it has
[45:01] to do with context. What else is going
[45:04] on in that narcissistic person's life?
[45:06] If things are going well, more of the
[45:08] grandiose stuff comes up. If things
[45:10] aren't going well, more of the
[45:11] vulnerable narcissistic stuff. And even
[45:14] in more severe malignant narcissistic
[45:16] folks, that can be peppered with any
[45:19] number of these dynamics.
[45:21] There are many myths about narcissism.
[45:24] Some of the biggest myths about
[45:26] narcissism and the ones I often find
[45:28] myself having to correct is that this is
[45:31] always men. Um all narcissists cheat.
[45:35] People in narcissistic relationship are
[45:38] codependent.
[45:39] People equating narcissism and
[45:41] psychopathy.
[45:43] Um if you're in a narcissistic
[45:44] relationship, you have to leave.
[45:47] So, there are a lot of myths floating
[45:49] out there about narcissism, but can
[45:52] really really complicated. Another big
[45:53] myth we hear about narcissism is that
[45:56] it's just vanity. These are people who
[45:58] just want to look in a mirror. Why are
[45:59] you having so much trouble with somebody
[46:01] who just wants to look good? So, a lot
[46:04] of these myths are either an
[46:05] oversimplification,
[46:06] an abject denial of the data, or an
[46:10] oversimplification of what these
[46:11] relationships are about.
[46:13] A big myth about narcissism is they
[46:15] can't help it. They can't help it. This
[46:18] is just who they are. But, they can help
[46:20] it. And the most classic example that
[46:23] anyone who's been through one of these
[46:24] relationships would know is one would be
[46:28] you're at a party, house party, dinner
[46:30] party, there's a group of people around.
[46:32] The narcissistic person's holding court.
[46:34] Some people are even making jokes with
[46:36] them, about them. They're ha ha ha,
[46:38] gregarious, warm. It's all They're
[46:42] They're just being lovely, right?
[46:44] And you're thinking, "Hmm, even after my
[46:46] brother-in-law gave them a little dig,
[46:48] they kept it together."
[46:50] Then it's time to go
[46:51] and you get in the car, the car door
[46:53] closes, and you're on the road going
[46:55] home, and the narcissistic person just
[46:58] goes off on you. How dare your
[47:01] brother-in-law? And you just sat there.
[47:03] How could you? My gosh, the way you
[47:06] talked about me.
[47:07] But not even 7 minutes before they were
[47:10] the life of the party.
[47:12] Another example would be narcissistic
[47:14] person goes out on the golf course with
[47:16] their boss, who they're trying to
[47:17] impress, and it's all charm, charisma,
[47:21] how's your little girl? Isn't her fifth
[47:23] birthday today? You look great. This is
[47:25] great. Warm, warm, warm. How can I help?
[47:27] Da da da da.
[47:29] Then they come home after said golf
[47:31] game, and they just go off.
[47:34] Angry, sullen, banging things around.
[47:37] The narcissistic person
[47:41] can read the situation and change their
[47:43] behavior accordingly. I have had so many
[47:45] people tell me that the narcissistic
[47:47] person will call them when they're when
[47:48] they're in the car. They'll answer the
[47:50] phone, and the narcissistic person will
[47:52] say, "Hey, hey, um you know, where are
[47:55] you going? Are you Who are you Who are
[47:56] you with in the car?"
[47:57] And the person who received the call
[47:59] will say, "No, I'm alone in the car."
[48:00] And then the narcissistic person's off
[48:02] to the races. They know there's no one
[48:04] else in the car
[48:05] because had there been someone else in
[48:07] the car, the odds are they'll say, "Oh,
[48:08] no worries. Well, you know, I hope you
[48:10] guys get there soon. Call you back." So,
[48:13] the narcissistic people are very aware
[48:17] of what looks good and what looks bad,
[48:19] which is why they can turn it on and off
[48:21] between the dinner party and the car,
[48:23] the golf course and getting home,
[48:25] whether or not there's other people in
[48:26] the car when they call you and they're
[48:27] on speaker. So, they can't help it
[48:30] because if they couldn't help it, they
[48:32] would be acting out of control with the
[48:34] boss. They would have yelled at that
[48:36] brother-in-law dinner. Now, some people
[48:37] say, "But, you know what? The
[48:39] narcissistic person in my life does yell
[48:41] at the brother-in-law. Like, they're
[48:43] combative." Now, that's that spectrum of
[48:44] severity. Also, it comes down to
[48:46] familiarity. If this narcissistic person
[48:49] regularly sees, for example, that
[48:51] brother-in-law, now that brother-in-law
[48:53] is in their central purview. They're
[48:55] within the group of people that the
[48:56] narcissistic people will not care as
[48:59] much as looking good around. So, if that
[49:02] that how big that network of people they
[49:03] need to look good around, that can
[49:05] shift. So, if it's you live in a
[49:07] close-knit family where everyone lives
[49:08] close to each other, the narcissistic
[49:10] person can actually behave badly with
[49:12] that. But then, if that circle got
[49:14] bigger, I don't know, could be a bigger
[49:16] family event, a wedding or something,
[49:18] the narcissistic person may keep it
[49:19] together there and then become
[49:21] dysregulated when they're with a smaller
[49:23] group. But they absolutely are in
[49:25] control of this. Narcissistic people
[49:28] actually are very very um
[49:31] socially perceptive. They know They know
[49:33] how to read a room in many ways. They
[49:36] don't care about the people in the room,
[49:38] but they can read the room in their own
[49:40] self-interest, which is actually kind of
[49:42] a sinister quality cuz you're like,
[49:44] "Well, how could they read the room and
[49:45] not care about me?" I'm like, "Well, cuz
[49:46] those are two separate things. You think
[49:48] cuz they could read the room they care?"
[49:50] No. They know what They know what's
[49:52] happening in this room. So, everyone
[49:54] else in the room will say, "Well,
[49:55] they're kind of getting it cuz that's
[49:56] how they're acting in this room.
[49:59] Narcissistic people also have intact
[50:01] theory of mind. And theory of mind is
[50:04] actually interestingly related to things
[50:05] like empathy, but narcissistic people
[50:08] can even read someone else's emotional
[50:10] state. Doesn't mean they're going to
[50:12] respond to it. They're too self-centered
[50:14] and often too contemptuous of other
[50:16] people. So, narcissistic people know,
[50:18] but for all the things, the arrogance,
[50:21] the lack of caring, the low empathy, all
[50:24] of that contributes to, even if they
[50:26] know, it doesn't necessarily that
[50:29] they're going to curate their behavior
[50:31] in an appropriate way, especially with
[50:33] people they're around a lot and that
[50:35] they perceive as a sure thing, like
[50:37] family and intimate relationships.
[50:39] Narcissism in the macro, if we looked at
[50:42] all five types of narcissism, is more
[50:44] prevalent in men than women, okay?
[50:48] That's if we took all the narcissistic
[50:50] people in the world, grandiose,
[50:51] malignant, and vulnerable, put them all
[50:53] in, we'd have a bigger bucket of
[50:54] narcissistic men than women, okay?
[50:57] However, and here's what's interesting,
[50:59] Grijalva did a study, and what she found
[51:02] was that vulnerable narcissism in their
[51:05] study they found equal rates in men and
[51:07] women.
[51:08] So that particular form of narcissism
[51:10] characterized more by negative mood
[51:13] states, abandonment and rejection fears,
[51:15] victimhood, passive aggression, that's
[51:18] much more common in women than in men.
[51:20] But the grandiose, the malignant are
[51:23] much more common in men. I haven't seen
[51:26] any studies of communal and
[51:27] self-righteous narcissism to speculate
[51:30] there. If I were to speculate though,
[51:32] communal narcissism potentially could
[51:34] also have gender equality on that one.
[51:37] Self-righteous narcissism I I don't even
[51:39] think I'd hazard a guess on that one.
[51:41] But grandiose narcissism, malignant
[51:43] narcissism, the power, the dominance,
[51:45] control, the higher archical
[51:48] orientation, all of that, that does tend
[51:51] to be gendered because in many ways it's
[51:52] how the difference between how boys and
[51:55] girls and ultimately men and women are
[51:56] socialized and the qualities and the
[51:59] behaviors that are reinforced as a
[52:01] function of gender. So I think that's
[52:04] why we see that disparity. You know,
[52:06] again, there's a lot of research showing
[52:08] that women tend to lean more to
[52:09] affiliation. Narcissism definitely
[52:12] doesn't promote affiliation, so there
[52:14] could be that element of it too. It
[52:16] could be hormonally related. There's a
[52:18] lot of moving parts in there. But are
[52:21] there narcissistic women women? Lots.
[52:23] Look at all the people out there who
[52:24] have narcissistic mothers and they can
[52:26] be all types of narcissism. Women can be
[52:29] psychopaths, women can be sociopathic. I
[52:32] mean, it there's it's just far, far less
[52:34] frequent and
[52:36] we I certainly as a psychologist and
[52:39] amongst therapists, there can be a real
[52:41] mistake that oh, well you're talking
[52:42] about a woman or female partner, they
[52:45] can't be narcissistic and I'll say not
[52:46] necessarily. They absolutely can. You No
[52:49] matter it doesn't matter who the person
[52:51] is, we have to assess the patterns of
[52:53] traits and behaviors before we can say
[52:56] whether or not someone's narcissistic,
[52:57] but it's a big mistake. We often assume
[53:00] that narcissism is only men and while it
[53:04] is majority men, it's not by any means
[53:06] only and there are many, many men who
[53:08] have been in relationships with
[53:10] narcissistic women who have gone through
[53:12] all the stuff and have said it was
[53:14] exactly the same, equally brutal to a
[53:16] woman being in a relationship with a
[53:18] narcissistic man.
[53:20] One issue that comes up is the question
[53:21] of whether people in narcissistic
[53:23] relationships are codependent. I have a
[53:26] big problem with that codependency issue
[53:29] because I don't think it's true. The
[53:31] construct of codependency is also
[53:33] relatively misunderstood. The origin of
[53:36] this term codependency was in the 1950s
[53:39] and it very much came out of the
[53:41] addiction literature. This idea of a
[53:44] person, the word enabling came out of
[53:46] that, too. Enabling a person in their
[53:48] midst who had a substance or drug use
[53:50] problem to keep using, to keep drinking,
[53:53] you know, sort of stay in that sort of
[53:54] addiction space and that somehow there
[53:57] was a secondary benefit to the
[53:59] codependent person. So long as this
[54:01] person was a drunk, this person was
[54:02] serving them, they were kind of nobody's
[54:04] leaving, the the alcoholic wouldn't
[54:06] leave and there was sort of a safety in
[54:08] that. And what it did was it sort of
[54:11] cast a a lens of dysfunction. I mean,
[54:14] who would ever stay in such a
[54:15] relationship, right? I really believe
[54:17] that the term codependency
[54:20] is not trauma informed, is is not
[54:22] antagonism informed. It doesn't take in
[54:25] the myriad reasons why people would
[54:28] remain in relationships that are
[54:30] unhealthy and continue to engage in
[54:34] relationships that are unhealthy.
[54:36] And the biggest reason I push back on
[54:39] this whole codependency
[54:40] characterization,
[54:42] not not the least of which it
[54:43] pathologizes the person. Well, if you're
[54:46] in a relationship with a narcissistic
[54:47] person, then there's something wrong
[54:48] with you, which is what's kept people
[54:50] stuck for such a long time. It doesn't
[54:53] account for what trauma and loss of
[54:56] safety does in a relationship. When a
[54:58] person doesn't feel safe in a close
[55:01] relationship, especially when it's an
[55:03] intimate relationship, they will do
[55:06] things
[55:08] that look like they are trying to fix or
[55:12] change or are ignoring the dynamics.
[55:16] Things like keep having the same
[55:18] conversations,
[55:19] do everything for the other person, not
[55:22] set boundaries. You know, things like um
[55:26] give in on everything, right? So, this
[55:28] idea that if a person's not just coming
[55:30] in to an antagonistic relationship as
[55:33] strong and firm in their boundaries and
[55:35] clear on what they want, that they're
[55:37] automatically codependent, which is
[55:39] absolute sheer nonsense.
[55:43] A person who's in an antagonistic
[55:44] relationship, especially if they don't
[55:47] know what they're dealing with, with the
[55:49] narcissistic person or otherwise, they
[55:51] feel overwhelmed.
[55:53] They feel like they could be reading it
[55:54] wrong.
[55:55] Remember that all people want human
[55:57] beings, most human beings, the vast
[55:59] majority of human beings, want to attach
[56:02] to other people. That's what we do. We
[56:04] attach. We are a social species. We are
[56:06] a tribal species. We live and thrive in
[56:11] small social groups, and that requires
[56:13] attachment. So, now a person's attached
[56:16] to someone who's not healthy or safe.
[56:18] Okay? Narcissism's really tricky because
[56:21] that narcissistic person is still viewed
[56:23] well by the world. So, but the person in
[56:26] the relationship with them is getting
[56:27] yelled at, invalidated, manipulated,
[56:30] gaslighted, all this stuff.
[56:32] The person in the relationship doesn't
[56:33] feel safe, but they're still trying to
[56:35] attach to this person. And over time,
[56:39] they keep clipping more and more parts
[56:40] of themselves. They'll do things like
[56:42] fawn and and sort of dissociate from
[56:44] themselves so they can keep engaging
[56:46] with this person.
[56:48] They did try to set boundaries once, and
[56:50] when they set boundaries, they were shut
[56:51] down and told, "You're selfish, you're
[56:53] ridiculous, you're demanding, and you're
[56:55] needy."
[56:56] But there was enough about the
[56:57] relationship that felt okay.
[56:59] So, this person isn't codependent. They
[57:02] just don't know what they're dealing
[57:03] with.
[57:04] And I can say as a clinician,
[57:06] in the majority of cases of people in
[57:08] narcissistic relationships,
[57:10] once they got an understanding, once
[57:13] they felt safe in therapy, and they got
[57:16] an understanding of what was happening
[57:18] in their relationship, they're like,
[57:19] "Oh my gosh, every damn relationship
[57:22] book out there tells me I should
[57:24] communicate, and I should have set
[57:26] boundaries, and I should have gratitude,
[57:29] and we should have date nights, and I
[57:31] did that for 30 years, and now you're
[57:35] telling me all the date nights in the
[57:37] world were going to change this?" And
[57:39] the answer is like, "Yep." And then the
[57:41] person's like, "Oh hell no." And some
[57:43] people I mean, I don't have I don't have
[57:45] enough If somebody gave me a dime every
[57:47] time someone said this to me, I'd be a
[57:49] very rich lady. But I'll say, "The
[57:50] minute I got it, I was out. Like, I'm
[57:53] not doing this anymore. I thought there
[57:55] was hope. I thought there was some way I
[57:57] could That's not codependency. That's a
[57:59] person not having a framework. And
[58:01] they're not setting boundaries, and and
[58:03] they're giving in. That was a person
[58:04] trying to feel safe. So, I don't buy the
[58:07] codependency piece. I think it's an
[58:08] antiquated concept that doesn't at all
[58:11] take in what we know about relational
[58:14] trauma and safety.
[58:16] The whole conversation about red flags
[58:18] and narcissism,
[58:20] I find it to be pretty problematic.
[58:22] Everybody wants to know, "What are the
[58:24] red flags? What are the five red flags?
[58:25] If I see these red flags, is that a
[58:27] narcissist?" First of all, human beings
[58:29] aren't that simple. But secondly,
[58:31] it puts the onus on the person being
[58:33] harmed to do with this big red flag
[58:35] hunt, but most importantly,
[58:38] a lot of the more problematic patterns
[58:41] in narcissism don't show up for a
[58:43] minute. Again, narcissistic people have
[58:45] this capacity to show up really well,
[58:48] whether it's charm, charisma,
[58:50] attentiveness, confidence,
[58:52] gregariousness, generousness,
[58:55] detail orientation, whatever it is.
[58:57] Initially, when a lot of us meet
[58:59] narcissistic people, we're like,
[59:01] "Cool person" or "Interesting person."
[59:04] Typically not put off.
[59:06] The problem traits kind of percolate
[59:09] into what feels like a really nice
[59:10] picture, and our tendency,
[59:12] interestingly, is to say, "Well, maybe
[59:15] that's a blip." So, the challenge with
[59:17] the red flag piece is that in many ways
[59:19] it's not what I call antagonism
[59:21] informed. It doesn't account for the
[59:23] unique presentation of narcissism
[59:26] showing up as actually almost a very
[59:29] socially successful trait, and then the
[59:31] gradual gradual showing up of
[59:34] problematic patterns. A great example
[59:36] would be you meet a narcissistic person,
[59:39] they're charming, they're charismatic,
[59:41] they're attentive.
[59:43] You then go from drinks to dinner,
[59:46] and you don't get the table. You're not
[59:48] seated in the table that they
[59:49] specifically requested to make a strong
[59:51] impression on you, and they get really
[59:53] prickly, and they're actually a little
[59:55] bit short and entitled with the the
[59:57] person doing the seating in the
[59:59] restaurant, and then you sit down, and
[1:00:01] they say, "Oh, I'm I'm sorry. You know,
[1:00:04] I had I had really wanted to make
[1:00:06] tonight special for you, for us. I had a
[1:00:09] really tough day. I was so looking
[1:00:11] forward to tonight.
[1:00:12] That wasn't cool." So, now you've
[1:00:15] actually seen one of the cracks, but
[1:00:17] they've patched it up right away with an
[1:00:19] excuse. "I had a bad day. I was trying
[1:00:22] to make it a nice day." But, they may
[1:00:23] not fully lean into "Oh my gosh, what I
[1:00:26] just did, that was not okay. I am so
[1:00:29] sorry if that was, you know, how that
[1:00:32] that that must have really felt terrible
[1:00:33] for you." There's no sense of that. It's
[1:00:35] here's the excuses. But, 99.9% of people
[1:00:38] wouldn't pick that up because they
[1:00:40] pointed out, they comment on it, and
[1:00:42] they even make it about how they're
[1:00:44] trying to make it a special evening for
[1:00:46] the other person. So, that's the
[1:00:48] subtlety of the red flags, and also
[1:00:51] there's another flip side to why this
[1:00:52] red flag conversation's a problem. If
[1:00:55] you spend your entire
[1:00:57] getting-to-know-you period with somebody
[1:00:59] overly focused on what the red flags
[1:01:02] are, you're going to miss the
[1:01:03] opportunity to also get to know this
[1:01:05] person, and you may overreact to
[1:01:08] well, they were 2 minutes late even
[1:01:11] though they called. They're late. That's
[1:01:12] it. They're disrespecting me. So, we may
[1:01:14] almost become over-sensitized to these
[1:01:17] red flags.
[1:01:19] This is what makes this so challenging,
[1:01:21] and boiling it down to something as
[1:01:23] simple as red flags misses the bigger
[1:01:25] picture of what happens, particularly in
[1:01:28] the early months of a narcissistic
[1:01:30] relationship. The first thing I'd want
[1:01:33] someone to know after you've heard
[1:01:34] everything I've shared about sort of the
[1:01:36] basics of narcissism is look for
[1:01:39] patterns. Don't say, "Well, this
[1:01:41] person's selfish, they must be
[1:01:42] narcissistic." Look for patterns.
[1:01:45] Look for consistency. Look at how close
[1:01:48] in you are to this person. Are they able
[1:01:51] to show up differently with some people
[1:01:53] where maybe there's less of an intense
[1:01:54] relationship than you?
[1:01:57] But the pattern piece is so, so
[1:01:59] important. A lot of people are using
[1:02:01] narcissism as sort of like a throwaway
[1:02:03] term, but when you really see all this
[1:02:06] stuff stick together and stick together
[1:02:08] consistently, you know
[1:02:11] what you're looking at. And many Many of
[1:02:13] you who are watching this are like, "I
[1:02:15] thought this was the case."
[1:02:17] And most of us don't want to just write
[1:02:19] off someone close to us as just being
[1:02:21] narcissistic. In fact, most of us in
[1:02:23] close relationships, whether it's family
[1:02:25] or intimate relationship, or a close
[1:02:27] colleague, or a close friend, we're not
[1:02:29] rubbing our hands with zeal and saying,
[1:02:31] "I hope I find out they're
[1:02:32] narcissistic." There can even be this
[1:02:35] icky feeling you have after hearing this
[1:02:36] of like, "Oh my gosh, this really
[1:02:39] describes this person I care about." All
[1:02:42] is not lost. Just because someone you're
[1:02:44] close to is narcissistic, doesn't mean
[1:02:47] you got to pack it in and walk away.
[1:02:49] There are paths forward to healing.
[1:02:51] There are paths forward to taking care
[1:02:53] of yourself in the relationship, and
[1:02:55] there is grief around recognizing that
[1:02:58] the limitations you sort of suspected
[1:03:00] might be present in this relationship
[1:03:02] are real.
[1:03:03] But above all else,
[1:03:05] don't make this about one episode of
[1:03:07] entitlement or someone just being
[1:03:09] selfish. You're looking for a bunch of
[1:03:11] stuff that's happening together
[1:03:14] a lot and over a time.
[1:03:19] >> Chapter two. Signs you are in a
[1:03:21] narcissistic relationship.
[1:03:25] >> I've often characterized narcissistic
[1:03:27] relationship as death by a thousand
[1:03:29] cuts. It's not one big dramatic moment,
[1:03:33] but it's often years and years and years
[1:03:35] of a combination of neglect and small
[1:03:38] jobs and sometimes bigger betrayals, but
[1:03:41] all of that is also embedded in a larger
[1:03:43] context of good stuff, what feels like
[1:03:45] normal stuff, and
[1:03:47] fun times, a nice vacation, good sex, um
[1:03:51] a family you built together. Whatever it
[1:03:53] may be, it feels like there's something
[1:03:55] sort of
[1:03:56] normal happening. But in in interspersed
[1:04:00] in that is all this stuff that's very
[1:04:02] hurtful and confusing.
[1:04:05] The death by a thousand cuts happens
[1:04:07] because so many people so many things
[1:04:09] are happening at the same time in a
[1:04:11] narcissistic relationship. There was
[1:04:14] a lot of good stuff, especially in a
[1:04:16] narcissistic intimate relationship. They
[1:04:18] often can start quite strong. Sometimes
[1:04:20] they can even feel very fairytale or
[1:04:22] magically timed or something like that.
[1:04:25] People might feel uniquely attuned to in
[1:04:27] these relationships for a variety of
[1:04:29] reasons. Then over time,
[1:04:31] the more unhealthy patterns sort of
[1:04:33] start streaming in, but not only is
[1:04:35] there the memory of all that good stuff,
[1:04:38] there's still some good stuff happening.
[1:04:40] So, as the little things happen, and not
[1:04:42] even so little things, broken promises,
[1:04:46] all kinds of betrayals, lying, being
[1:04:49] insulted, being criticized, being
[1:04:52] doubted,
[1:04:53] breaches of trust, you name it. As those
[1:04:56] slowly start to accumulate, again,
[1:04:58] combined with stuff that feels normal,
[1:05:00] people aren't sitting there saying, "Oh
[1:05:02] my gosh, I'm in such a terrible
[1:05:04] relationship." Some people even
[1:05:06] rationalize it saying, "Well,
[1:05:08] relationships aren't always easy." So,
[1:05:10] there's a lot of relationship talk out
[1:05:11] there that can actually prop up the sort
[1:05:14] of subtle kind of
[1:05:17] for lack of a better term,
[1:05:18] indoctrination that happens in a
[1:05:20] narcissistic relationship. By the time a
[1:05:23] person starts seeing what's happening in
[1:05:26] their relationship is actually more of a
[1:05:27] pattern, in many, many cases it's been
[1:05:30] going on for a very, very long time. And
[1:05:34] the way
[1:05:35] human beings work, especially when it
[1:05:36] comes to their relationships, most
[1:05:39] people aren't walking around saying,
[1:05:40] "Well, there's bad thing number 532.
[1:05:43] There's bad thing number 647."
[1:05:47] We don't attend to them. It's almost
[1:05:49] like once life becomes normal again,
[1:05:50] we're kind of rolling along. We're sort
[1:05:52] of these little inertia creatures. So,
[1:05:54] we keep going and going and going. But
[1:05:56] it wears down on us. And what we see
[1:05:58] over time is people in narcissistic
[1:06:00] relationships start to lose belief in
[1:06:03] themselves. They stop trusting people as
[1:06:05] much. They start feeling more
[1:06:07] incompetent, foolish. A lot of negative
[1:06:10] stuff comes up. So, what's also
[1:06:12] happening simultaneous to the thousand
[1:06:14] cuts
[1:06:15] is people are actually believing they
[1:06:17] kind of deserve some of those insults.
[1:06:18] Well, I'm not trying hard enough. Maybe
[1:06:21] I'm too too demanding. Maybe I'm greedy.
[1:06:23] Maybe I'm selfish. Maybe I'm
[1:06:25] unrealistic. Maybe I'm not carrying my
[1:06:27] weight. Maybe I'm not trying hard
[1:06:29] enough. And the accumulation of that,
[1:06:32] that I'm a contributor to this, too,
[1:06:35] can mean that not only do the thousand
[1:06:37] cuts not get registered,
[1:06:39] a person feels like they're behaving as
[1:06:41] badly as the narcissistic person is.
[1:06:44] There are many common signs that you may
[1:06:47] be in a narcissistic relationship.
[1:06:49] Invalidation,
[1:06:51] dismissiveness, that things that are
[1:06:53] happening to you aren't nearly as bad as
[1:06:55] they are to them or just for anyone.
[1:06:58] There is a lot of gaslighting,
[1:07:00] manipulation,
[1:07:02] there can be a lot of betrayal.
[1:07:04] There's a lot of blame shifting. It's
[1:07:06] not my fault, it's yours. I only did
[1:07:08] this because you made me do it. There
[1:07:10] can be other manipulative tactics,
[1:07:11] things like what we call future faking.
[1:07:13] You again, making promises, not
[1:07:15] following through on them. And there can
[1:07:18] be also things like vindictiveness. So,
[1:07:20] if you really do something that sets a
[1:07:23] narcissistic person off, they may very
[1:07:26] much focus on not just punishing you,
[1:07:29] but really punishing you, like giving
[1:07:32] you 10 times the consequences back. So,
[1:07:34] there's
[1:07:35] all the things that tend to happen in
[1:07:37] the relationship are things that
[1:07:39] destabilize you, that make not only the
[1:07:42] relationship, but even you yourself feel
[1:07:44] less safe, though most people don't call
[1:07:47] it that initially. You kind of feel
[1:07:49] disoriented. You feel off-balance. But,
[1:07:51] those things like gaslighting,
[1:07:52] manipulation,
[1:07:54] dysregulated emotion, all of that all of
[1:07:56] that contributes to a person feeling
[1:07:59] disoriented in one of these
[1:08:01] relationships.
[1:08:03] So, love bombing is kind of the
[1:08:06] toxic off-ramp. It's the dynamic that
[1:08:08] brings people in to a narcissistic
[1:08:11] relationship. Love bombing is tricky. A
[1:08:14] lot of people
[1:08:16] are using the term.
[1:08:18] And what it really means is it's the
[1:08:21] tactics
[1:08:23] that are used early in a relationship to
[1:08:27] draw somebody in. And these really fall
[1:08:31] under the rubric of idealization,
[1:08:34] seduction,
[1:08:36] intense attunement,
[1:08:38] paying attention to somebody, obsessive
[1:08:41] focus.
[1:08:43] So, it could include anything like um
[1:08:46] wanting to constantly spend time with
[1:08:48] you in early in a relationship, buying
[1:08:50] gifts, being of tremendous service to
[1:08:53] you early in a relationship, frequent
[1:08:55] communication, text messages, DMs,
[1:08:58] emails, phone calls, video calls, social
[1:09:02] media engagement. It could be
[1:09:06] wanting to do things very quickly, going
[1:09:08] on an intense trip together, wanting to
[1:09:11] meet friends and family very quickly,
[1:09:13] even suggesting structural things happen
[1:09:15] quickly. Let's move in together. Let's
[1:09:17] get engaged quickly. Let's get married
[1:09:20] quickly. The pace is very much set by
[1:09:23] that other person, but people who are
[1:09:25] caught in the love bomb sequence will
[1:09:27] say, "I just felt like I was in this
[1:09:28] intense fairytale." The word intense is
[1:09:31] very important. There's so much
[1:09:33] happening. It's very easy to get
[1:09:35] overwhelmed and almost distracted by
[1:09:37] love bombing.
[1:09:39] But it is a tactic. So while some of
[1:09:41] this stuff may feel fun and nice, "I'm
[1:09:44] going to fly you to another city for
[1:09:46] dinner. I'm going to buy you this
[1:09:48] extravagant gift. I'm going to loan you
[1:09:51] the money you need to do whatever you
[1:09:53] need to do. I'm going to help you meet
[1:09:55] this work deadline." It all feels very
[1:09:57] attuned. It all feels very attentive.
[1:10:00] But as soon as a person in the love
[1:10:02] bombed phase of a relationship tries to
[1:10:05] exert what's important to them. Great
[1:10:07] example would be the relationship feels
[1:10:09] very intense, like it's moving what very
[1:10:12] quickly. And a person were to say,
[1:10:15] "I am so enjoying getting to know you,
[1:10:16] but could we slow down? Like I think
[1:10:18] seeing someone every night of the week
[1:10:20] is a lot."
[1:10:22] And the tactic will be, "Huh, you really
[1:10:25] kind of misled yourself. You were
[1:10:26] talking to me about how you wanted to
[1:10:28] meet someone for a serious relationship
[1:10:31] and make a life with them. I can't get
[1:10:33] enough of you. I can't spend enough time
[1:10:36] with you, but it seems like you may not
[1:10:38] be looking for the same thing as me." So
[1:10:40] that tactic works.
[1:10:42] Because a person's like, "No, I do want
[1:10:44] those things, but this is a lot."
[1:10:47] And very quickly a person will almost
[1:10:49] find some plausibility in what the love
[1:10:51] bomber is saying and saying, "Oh, I
[1:10:53] guess maybe if you are into someone, you
[1:10:55] do spend all your time with them." Other
[1:10:57] places where we'll see that the love
[1:10:59] bombing is a tactic is when it comes to
[1:11:01] boundary setting.
[1:11:03] A person will say, "You know what? I
[1:11:05] have this pickleball game I play with my
[1:11:07] friends every Thursday evening, and it's
[1:11:09] just a girls thing." And that's the
[1:11:12] boundary, like this is our girls thing.
[1:11:14] We do this every Thursday. And the love
[1:11:16] bomber will say,
[1:11:18] again, same sort of thing, "I thought we
[1:11:20] were in this together. Like are you
[1:11:21] embarrassed of me? Are you do you not
[1:11:23] want your pickleball friends to meet me?
[1:11:24] Is that what this is? Um okay, I get it.
[1:11:28] Like okay, it's fine if we're all behind
[1:11:29] closed doors, but I guess you just don't
[1:11:31] really want me in your life. That's not
[1:11:33] true. The person just has this wonderful
[1:11:36] healthy friend space,
[1:11:38] but not only can you see that that
[1:11:40] boundary isn't honored, there's a the
[1:11:42] love bomber wants to start insinuating
[1:11:44] themselves into every space
[1:11:48] in the person's life. So, boundaries,
[1:11:50] when you try to set them, you're being
[1:11:52] told that you don't really care or that
[1:11:55] you're being rigid. So, all the things
[1:11:57] that a person would do in the midst of
[1:11:59] all this intense stuff is pushed back
[1:12:01] on. Another great example would be the
[1:12:03] frequent communication. It's
[1:12:05] fascinating. I've been doing this work
[1:12:06] since before there were all the cell
[1:12:07] phones and all this. And when cell
[1:12:09] phones came around, I was like, oh no,
[1:12:11] this love bombing thing's going to get a
[1:12:12] lot worse. And indeed it did. Good
[1:12:15] morning, my queen. How's my afternoon,
[1:12:18] baby? You thinking about me during
[1:12:19] breakfast? What are you doing? What are
[1:12:21] you wearing? What are you seeing? Who
[1:12:22] are you talking to? It's all day,
[1:12:24] message after message. Good night, my
[1:12:27] sweetheart. Whatever the heck these
[1:12:29] people are texting.
[1:12:30] Well, here's the challenge. It's not
[1:12:32] just that you have to watch all this
[1:12:33] garbage come into the phone all day.
[1:12:36] The person who's being love bombed is
[1:12:37] expected to respond.
[1:12:40] So, now all of a sudden love bombing
[1:12:41] starts becoming a full-time job.
[1:12:44] And if you don't respond, the love
[1:12:45] bomber will say,
[1:12:47] "Oh, I guess like, you know what? Isn't
[1:12:48] a relationship about communication?" So,
[1:12:50] they'll take what is a healthy thing,
[1:12:52] communication, but they'll distort it.
[1:12:55] And a person being love bombed, who may
[1:12:58] in many cases be treated really well,
[1:13:01] will get confused and say, "Well, I
[1:13:03] guess." And you'll say, "I'm really
[1:13:04] busy." "Oh, well, you have time to do
[1:13:06] your job." Well, it takes 2 seconds to
[1:13:09] answer a text message. Plausible,
[1:13:11] plausible, plausible. Right? So, that as
[1:13:14] all of that piles up, a person is
[1:13:16] feeling sort of worse and worse. And
[1:13:19] then the other thing that's sinister
[1:13:20] about love bombing is how it operates in
[1:13:22] your social circles, right?
[1:13:24] Isolation is a very common dynamic in
[1:13:26] narcissistic relationships, but with
[1:13:28] love bombing,
[1:13:29] love bombing is where the isolation
[1:13:31] actually begins.
[1:13:33] And it but it doesn't happen all at
[1:13:35] once. It's not like a person meets you
[1:13:37] and says, "I'm going to lock you away
[1:13:38] from the world." No, no.
[1:13:41] They'll actually very quickly want you
[1:13:43] to meet people in their world.
[1:13:46] And then even turn that around. So like
[1:13:48] you meet their mother 10 days after
[1:13:51] meeting them. And then 2 months in you
[1:13:53] might say, "Okay, this is too much for
[1:13:55] me." And when you start talking about
[1:13:57] discontent, the love bomber will say,
[1:14:00] "Wow, I brought you into your my secret
[1:14:03] space. I introduced you to my mother.
[1:14:06] This isn't just about leaving me. This
[1:14:07] is about leaving my family. So now
[1:14:09] you're being brought into a system that
[1:14:11] you shouldn't have been brought in so
[1:14:12] quickly into. And then even in your own
[1:14:15] social network, many love bombers will
[1:14:17] insist and want to meet everyone in your
[1:14:19] world, okay? But and this is a big
[1:14:23] point,
[1:14:24] love bombers, narcissistic people, all
[1:14:26] of them are actually again socially
[1:14:27] perceptive. They'll pick up on whether
[1:14:30] maybe one of your friends or family
[1:14:31] members doesn't really like them.
[1:14:34] And they will then use that as a
[1:14:36] triangulation point. Like, "I don't
[1:14:39] know. Like your sister is salty. It's
[1:14:41] It's almost like she's competitive with
[1:14:43] you. She certainly doesn't like me." And
[1:14:45] so now the person being love bombed,
[1:14:48] their interest in wanting to spend time
[1:14:49] with that sister is now viewed as
[1:14:51] disloyalty. So what love bombing is,
[1:14:54] it's it's a it's it's this sort of
[1:14:57] almost like a viral process where the
[1:14:59] person kind of infects the host and then
[1:15:01] bombs off more virus throughout the
[1:15:03] body.
[1:15:04] But because again, there's so much good
[1:15:07] stuff happening, it feels like the fairy
[1:15:09] tale. And it might even be in contrast
[1:15:11] to past relationships. A person will be
[1:15:13] in a past relationship where they were
[1:15:14] neglected. They never responded to
[1:15:16] texts. They never wanted them to meet
[1:15:18] their family. They didn't ask them to
[1:15:20] marry them. So now this person is coming
[1:15:22] in with buckets and buckets of attention
[1:15:25] and obsession and all of that. It can be
[1:15:28] It can really throw a person off and
[1:15:29] say, "What am I complaining about? This
[1:15:32] person's bringing everything." And then
[1:15:34] when you throw one last piece in the
[1:15:35] love bomb mix, which is the enablers.
[1:15:38] There's a whole world of people around
[1:15:39] you will say, "Wow, like this is a fairy
[1:15:41] tale. This is a extraordinary."
[1:15:44] It will look and sound like what
[1:15:46] everyone wants you to have. So, even if
[1:15:48] the person being love bombed is saying,
[1:15:49] "This feels too intense." Sadly,
[1:15:52] we still have like a
[1:15:55] cartoon romance Cinderella trope in our
[1:15:58] society. And so, when people are in a
[1:16:01] fairy tale, we somehow think that that
[1:16:03] is a good thing versus it's not at a
[1:16:07] pace that works for you. So, in the
[1:16:10] United Kingdom,
[1:16:11] love bombing is now officially
[1:16:13] recognized as a tactic that is a part of
[1:16:16] emotionally abusive and coercively
[1:16:18] controlled relationships. It is formally
[1:16:21] now recognized as part of the entire
[1:16:23] process of an emotionally abusive
[1:16:26] relationship. And I think we need to get
[1:16:28] out of the mindset that love bombing is
[1:16:30] just somebody who shows you a good time.
[1:16:31] It's not that. It is a tactic. It is a
[1:16:34] setup. It's getting a person against the
[1:16:36] ropes of emotional abuse. And when
[1:16:39] they're finally in position, that's it.
[1:16:41] It's much harder to get out.
[1:16:44] Gaslighting is a word that everybody's
[1:16:47] using. In fact, gaslighting was
[1:16:49] Merriam-Webster's
[1:16:50] word of the year in 2022. That is how
[1:16:53] much this word is getting used. And even
[1:16:56] I would argue almost 10, maybe 15 years
[1:16:58] ago, nobody even knew what it meant. In
[1:17:00] fact, most people don't even know the
[1:17:01] origin story of this term, which is
[1:17:03] merely from a play and then a film. And
[1:17:05] that's like 1930. So, it it's it was a
[1:17:07] strange to watch this word climb in, but
[1:17:10] it speaks to sort of the ubiquity this
[1:17:12] phenomenon. The challenge with the word
[1:17:14] gaslighting is a lot like the challenge
[1:17:15] with the word narcissism. A lot of
[1:17:17] people aren't using it right. And the
[1:17:19] big mistake that people make is a lot of
[1:17:21] people think gaslighting is when
[1:17:23] somebody lies to you.
[1:17:25] And other people think that gaslighting
[1:17:28] is a difference in opinion. It's not
[1:17:30] those things.
[1:17:31] Gaslighting is a very calculated
[1:17:34] abusive and manipulative tactic. It has
[1:17:38] steps to it. There's there's sort of a
[1:17:40] kind of a a step-by-step kind of
[1:17:42] approach to gaslighting. Number one,
[1:17:45] gaslighting requires some level of
[1:17:46] trust. It's hard for a perfect stranger
[1:17:49] to gaslight you. You're you're kind of
[1:17:51] going to look at them like, "What? What
[1:17:52] are you saying?" You have no
[1:17:53] relationship with them. So, this is why
[1:17:55] gaslighting most often happens in close
[1:17:57] relationships, intimate relationships,
[1:18:00] family relationships.
[1:18:02] It can also happen with people who are
[1:18:03] trusted authorities. A physician, a
[1:18:06] healthcare professional, a lawyer, an
[1:18:09] accountant, a financial advisor, even a
[1:18:11] contractor, someone who knows something
[1:18:13] can gaslight you because you have trust
[1:18:16] in them. The next step of gaslighting
[1:18:19] after having You have to have the again,
[1:18:20] you have to have the foundation. I guess
[1:18:21] I'd call the trust the foundation of
[1:18:23] gaslighting.
[1:18:24] The first step really then in
[1:18:25] gaslighting is a denial of reality,
[1:18:29] memory, experience, or perception.
[1:18:32] That's why a lot of people think it's
[1:18:33] lying because
[1:18:35] lie is really a denial of reality,
[1:18:37] right? I I never said that. I didn't do
[1:18:39] that. I didn't take your money. You
[1:18:41] know, I never talked to him. And they
[1:18:43] did do that thing, okay? That's the
[1:18:45] That's the denial of what it You know,
[1:18:47] whatever it is, perception, memory,
[1:18:49] reality, any of it. That's just part
[1:18:51] one. And if you stopped there, that's
[1:18:53] not gaslighting.
[1:18:55] For it to be gaslighting, you have to
[1:18:57] have the second part. And the second
[1:18:59] part
[1:19:01] is where the person is dismantled. And
[1:19:03] by that, I mean
[1:19:04] part one, "I never said that." Part two,
[1:19:08] "I think there's something wrong with
[1:19:10] you. You make stuff up in your head. I
[1:19:13] think you're crazy." The "I think you're
[1:19:15] crazy" part is the second part that
[1:19:17] cements it as as gaslighting. Denial of
[1:19:20] reality, dismantling the person. Those
[1:19:22] two things together make it a gaslight.
[1:19:25] Other parts of the gaslighting process
[1:19:27] is that if somebody gaslights us once,
[1:19:31] it can make an impression. It can make
[1:19:33] an impact.
[1:19:34] But for gaslighting to really, really
[1:19:37] qualify as the emotionally abusive
[1:19:39] dynamic it is, it happens repeatedly.
[1:19:43] I never said that there's something
[1:19:44] wrong with you.
[1:19:46] I put it right back where I found it. I
[1:19:48] think you have memory problems.
[1:19:50] I never agreed to that. Stop telling me
[1:19:53] that.
[1:19:54] You make everything about you.
[1:19:57] I think you're narcissistic. So, it's
[1:19:59] this slow shaping away of your reality
[1:20:03] and your perception. And remember, many
[1:20:05] narcissistic relationships can be quite
[1:20:07] isolated. So, if you're in a
[1:20:08] relationship with a gaslighter and
[1:20:10] you're being gaslighted a lot,
[1:20:12] and you don't know you're being
[1:20:13] gaslighted, it can be a real shift in
[1:20:17] how you perceive yourself and how you
[1:20:19] perceive the world, frankly, and how you
[1:20:21] perceive reality. It is such a nefarious
[1:20:25] dynamic.
[1:20:27] And when you're in it and you know it,
[1:20:29] even then it can be destabilizing.
[1:20:32] Even I, to this day, still get
[1:20:34] gaslighted. I'm thinking, "Damn, this
[1:20:36] person's gaslighting me." But if a
[1:20:38] person gaslights you when you're tired,
[1:20:40] overwhelmed, coming off a difficult
[1:20:43] experience, you're eminently
[1:20:44] gaslightable. I think the more
[1:20:45] exhausted, more worn out we are, the
[1:20:48] more gaslightable we are. The less we
[1:20:50] trust our abilities and ourselves, the
[1:20:52] more gaslightable we are. And the more
[1:20:54] this happens,
[1:20:56] people who are gaslighted over the long
[1:20:57] term, they give in. They stop fighting
[1:20:59] back. They stop trying to explain
[1:21:01] themselves. And in the worst case
[1:21:04] scenario, the person who's fully
[1:21:06] gaslighted just goes along to get along.
[1:21:09] And to the world, it looks like the
[1:21:11] person who was gaslighted is just living
[1:21:14] in long and quiet harmony and agreement
[1:21:16] and just does everything that the
[1:21:19] gaslighter tells them to do and doesn't
[1:21:21] question them.
[1:21:22] That's the end point. Now, if anyone's
[1:21:25] ever seen the movie Gaslight, they'll
[1:21:27] know that Ingrid Bergman did get pulled
[1:21:30] back from the brink. And how did she do
[1:21:31] that? It took one person in her midst to
[1:21:34] say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." It
[1:21:37] was the detective.
[1:21:38] "This isn't true. This isn't happening."
[1:21:40] And that was all it took to almost break
[1:21:44] Ingrid Bergman's character out of the
[1:21:45] spell. Because when we're gaslighted, we
[1:21:47] do look like we're under a really,
[1:21:49] really bad magic spell. But one person
[1:21:52] coming in saying, "You didn't say that.
[1:21:54] You didn't do that." That's often enough
[1:21:56] to break the gaslighted cycle. As a
[1:21:59] psychologist, as a therapist, I have to
[1:22:01] say, in many, many cases, the work I've
[1:22:03] done with patients was the client
[1:22:05] telling me what was happening in their
[1:22:07] lives, and I'll say,
[1:22:09] "It seems like they're gaslighting you."
[1:22:11] And when the client realized that,
[1:22:12] they'll say, "Oh my goodness. I just
[1:22:15] assumed they were right." So, you're
[1:22:17] just breaking someone. It It is like
[1:22:19] breaking a spell. Because with enough
[1:22:21] time, enough gaslighting, that's what it
[1:22:23] That's how it works. It feels like a
[1:22:25] really, really bad magic spell.
[1:22:28] Future faking is a manipulative dynamic
[1:22:31] in a narcissistic relationship. I
[1:22:33] personally think it qualifies as a form
[1:22:35] of betrayal. But what future faking
[1:22:37] entails is controlling a person or
[1:22:40] keeping a person in a relationship
[1:22:43] on the basis of making a future promise.
[1:22:47] So, let's say a person is starting to
[1:22:49] feel like they want to get out of a
[1:22:50] relationship. The narcissistic person,
[1:22:53] the future faker, will say, "I'm going
[1:22:55] to go into therapy. I'm going to
[1:22:56] change."
[1:22:58] Or maybe there's something that somebody
[1:22:59] really wants in a relationship. Let's
[1:23:01] say, "I promise you, as soon as I make
[1:23:03] partner, we're going to go on a
[1:23:05] vacation." Or
[1:23:07] "As soon as you become pregnant, we're
[1:23:08] going to move closer to family." So,
[1:23:11] the thing being offered is something
[1:23:12] that the person in the relationship
[1:23:14] really wants. But really, what the
[1:23:15] future faking is about is to maintain
[1:23:18] the status quo in a way that works for
[1:23:20] the future faker. When the time comes,
[1:23:24] partner has been made, what they
[1:23:26] Whatever it may be, or in 6 months have
[1:23:28] passed, whatever it is, the goal post
[1:23:30] moves.
[1:23:31] And the promise hasn't been given. So,
[1:23:34] now a person has spent that much more
[1:23:36] time in the relationship.
[1:23:38] Future faking then, once you get to the
[1:23:40] point, whether it's a period of time
[1:23:42] like 6 months, whether it's the making
[1:23:43] partner, whatever,
[1:23:45] then it turns into a new manipulation.
[1:23:47] The person who's future faked will say,
[1:23:49] "Hey, you said you were going to go into
[1:23:51] therapy." And they will be met with,
[1:23:53] "Stop pressuring me. This is a very
[1:23:54] personal decision."
[1:23:56] Or the person will get the promotion at
[1:23:59] work
[1:24:02] to go on vacation." And the future faker
[1:24:04] will say, "Wow, you just make everything
[1:24:06] about you, don't you?"
[1:24:08] So, even when that promise is made, the
[1:24:10] promise is not seen through. Then the
[1:24:12] person is pretty much gaslighted about
[1:24:15] it.
[1:24:16] Now, the person can feel a sense of
[1:24:18] shame. Maybe they are selfish. All the
[1:24:20] stuff that keeps people sort of
[1:24:21] entrenched in these relationship and
[1:24:24] more time goes on. And because these
[1:24:26] future fake promises may not be as short
[1:24:27] a period of time as 6 months away, but
[1:24:29] maybe years and years and years away,
[1:24:32] now a person has spent many, many years
[1:24:34] in a relationship.
[1:24:36] And the thing they'd hoped would happen
[1:24:37] never happens. This can be particularly
[1:24:40] nefarious when it is, for example, a
[1:24:43] promise on something where there is a
[1:24:44] bit of a time window on it, like having
[1:24:46] children.
[1:24:47] And the narcissistic partner will say,
[1:24:49] "Of course, of course we're going to
[1:24:50] have children. Let's just wait till this
[1:24:52] happen. Let's just wait till that
[1:24:53] happens. Let's just wait till this
[1:24:54] happens." And enough time passes and
[1:24:57] maybe there's something that happens.
[1:24:58] There's fertility challenges or
[1:24:59] something like that. And then enough
[1:25:01] time passes and there is no opportunity
[1:25:03] for intervention or the time just runs
[1:25:06] out in terms of having a child.
[1:25:09] But the future faking can lead the
[1:25:10] person to believe it's going to happen,
[1:25:12] it's going to happen, it's going to
[1:25:13] happen, and then it never happens. And
[1:25:16] what again is also doubly nefarious
[1:25:18] about the future faking dynamic is many
[1:25:21] times the person who was future faked
[1:25:23] blame themselves. Well, psh.
[1:25:25] I'm so foolish. I shouldn't have
[1:25:26] believed their stupid promise. That's on
[1:25:28] me. To which I want to say, it is not on
[1:25:31] you. They promised you something. They
[1:25:35] relented on that. When you attempted to
[1:25:37] communicate about it, they keep saying,
[1:25:39] "Well, it's too soon. It's too soon."
[1:25:42] And now all that time has passed. They
[1:25:44] betrayed you. But that's not how not
[1:25:47] only most people themselves think about
[1:25:49] it, that's actually not how most people
[1:25:51] outside of that see it, and most people
[1:25:53] will blame the person who was future
[1:25:55] faked rather than the person who did
[1:25:58] this to them.
[1:26:00] Many things happen to a person in a
[1:26:03] narcissistic relationship. Self-blame is
[1:26:06] such a common dynamic for people who are
[1:26:09] in narcissistic relationships or had a
[1:26:11] narcissistic parent, any kind of
[1:26:13] narcissistic relationship. And there are
[1:26:15] three big reasons that I can think of.
[1:26:17] One comes down to attachment. We want to
[1:26:20] stay in a relationship. We want a
[1:26:22] relationship to work, right? It's easier
[1:26:25] to blame ourselves. That takes us to
[1:26:27] reason two cuz that gives us more
[1:26:28] control. If it's our fault, then we can
[1:26:31] fix it. We can communicate differently.
[1:26:34] We can explain ourselves better. We can
[1:26:37] take it on ourselves. Kids in particular
[1:26:40] will self-blame to maintain that control
[1:26:42] because it feels too dangerous to think
[1:26:44] that the parent is a bad person. But,
[1:26:46] even in adult relationships, if we can
[1:26:48] make it about, well, maybe I'm not
[1:26:51] communicating clearly enough. Maybe I'm
[1:26:52] not making enough time for the
[1:26:54] relationship. Maybe I'm not being
[1:26:56] patient. Well, then you can do those
[1:26:58] things. You can make more time. You can
[1:26:59] communicate more clearly. You can be
[1:27:01] more patient. It's not going to change
[1:27:02] anything, but at least you then feel
[1:27:05] like you have some level of control in
[1:27:07] the relationship. Some of this also has
[1:27:10] to do with one of the key dynamics in a
[1:27:12] narcissistic relationship, which is
[1:27:14] blame shifting.
[1:27:15] Narcissistic people almost never take
[1:27:18] accountability
[1:27:20] for the things that they have done.
[1:27:22] So, what they do instead is they very
[1:27:24] quickly shift blame to the other person.
[1:27:26] This is your fault. I didn't do this.
[1:27:28] Why did you do that? And or they'll take
[1:27:31] responsibility in so far as the
[1:27:33] narcissistic person will say, "Okay,
[1:27:35] yes, I did that, but it's your fault."
[1:27:38] In fact, it's not unusual for a
[1:27:39] narcissistic person who's cheated in a
[1:27:41] relationship to say, "Okay, fine. You
[1:27:43] got me. Are you satisfied?" I mean,
[1:27:46] you're a weirdo that looked at my iPad,
[1:27:48] but okay, yes, I saw this person a few
[1:27:51] times, but you want to know why I did
[1:27:53] it? It's because you're never around,
[1:27:55] you're we don't have sex, you don't talk
[1:27:57] to me, you've let yourself go. So, now
[1:28:01] their affair is your fault.
[1:28:03] So, because of that chronic blame
[1:28:05] shifting, in some ways the only way the
[1:28:06] relationship works is if you're willing
[1:28:09] to be a blame repository. And as long as
[1:28:11] the other person's holding the blame in
[1:28:13] the relationship, the relationship kind
[1:28:15] of keeps marching along. But, there's
[1:28:17] many different ways that self-blame
[1:28:19] functions in a narcissistic
[1:28:21] relationship, but it's a pretty
[1:28:23] universal theme. Just about everyone in
[1:28:26] one of these relationships blames
[1:28:27] themselves. And also, it's so important
[1:28:30] to remember not every day in a
[1:28:33] narcissistic relationship is a bad day.
[1:28:36] There can be normal days, weeks, and
[1:28:38] even months when things are going well.
[1:28:41] Life is happening, the kids are doing
[1:28:43] their thing, you're having a good time,
[1:28:44] it's summer, you're on vacation,
[1:28:46] whatever it is.
[1:28:48] And because those good times happen, and
[1:28:51] then not so good ones happen, and then
[1:28:53] bad ones happen, there's a tendency to
[1:28:56] say, "Well, it's sometimes good." And
[1:28:59] every relationship book out there is
[1:29:01] about, "Well, it takes two to tango."
[1:29:04] Two to tango simply ends up with people
[1:29:08] who are narcissistic relationships
[1:29:10] blaming themselves.
[1:29:12] The inconsistency, the unpredictability,
[1:29:15] the confusion of a narcissistic
[1:29:17] relationship actually directly affect us
[1:29:20] somatically, in our body, in our nervous
[1:29:22] systems.
[1:29:23] Inherently, these relationships are not
[1:29:26] safe. They may not be what we consider
[1:29:28] sort of ostensibly dangerous, like
[1:29:29] nobody's coming at you with fists or a
[1:29:31] weapon, but you don't feel safe. You
[1:29:33] feel like you can't say what's on your
[1:29:35] mind, you have to feel like you have to
[1:29:37] censor yourself, you don't know what's
[1:29:39] going to set them off. So, people in
[1:29:41] these relationships get more and more
[1:29:44] and more vigilant. And the sympathetic
[1:29:46] nervous system is sort of more and more
[1:29:48] on high alert. There's a signal from
[1:29:50] your brain to your body like, "You're
[1:29:51] not entirely safe. Like, all of a sudden
[1:29:54] this can this can blow up. All of a
[1:29:55] sudden there's going to be a big loud
[1:29:58] explosion in this relationship that
[1:30:00] you're going to feel unsafe. So, we feel
[1:30:02] more vigilant. We're kind of much more
[1:30:04] on edge. There's a lot more monitoring
[1:30:06] of the environment. And what we can see
[1:30:08] often in these relationships are the
[1:30:10] classic sympathetic nervous kind of
[1:30:12] trauma responses, safety responses, like
[1:30:15] the fight response, the flight response,
[1:30:17] the freeze response, the fawn response.
[1:30:20] These are reflexive nervous system
[1:30:24] responses a person has when they're in a
[1:30:27] situation that their body is perceiving
[1:30:30] as dangerous.
[1:30:32] The ongoing chronic interpersonal stress
[1:30:35] of a narcissistic relationship also does
[1:30:38] take a real toll on the body. We know
[1:30:41] that these kinds of unrelenting
[1:30:43] relational stresses, they affect all
[1:30:45] kinds of neurohormone systems. They can
[1:30:47] affect cortisol release. They can affect
[1:30:50] They can They can impact all full body
[1:30:52] inflammation. We see a higher rate of
[1:30:55] autoimmune symptomatology and autoimmune
[1:30:58] diagnoses in people who have experienced
[1:31:00] these kinds of narcissistic
[1:31:02] relationships. People stop taking care
[1:31:04] of themselves as well. Their sleep is
[1:31:06] disrupted. They They'll say they
[1:31:08] struggle with food. Some people may cope
[1:31:10] with drugs or alcohol. There's all kinds
[1:31:12] of other ancillary kind of health things
[1:31:15] that also happen. Lots of people who in
[1:31:17] these relationships will say, "I get
[1:31:19] sick more often. I'm often exhausted. I
[1:31:22] have a chronic sense of fatigue." And
[1:31:24] that's likely a byproduct of the
[1:31:25] psychological exhaustion, but also how
[1:31:28] that shows up physiologically in a
[1:31:31] person's body. I've been doing this work
[1:31:33] for a long time, and I have seen
[1:31:35] everything from people getting chronic
[1:31:37] illnesses that will not remit to chronic
[1:31:39] autoimmune diagnoses, and even cancers
[1:31:42] and things that even their their
[1:31:43] oncology teams are saying,
[1:31:45] "It is amazing how sort of resistant
[1:31:48] your body almost seems to treatment."
[1:31:50] And I do sometimes wonder to myself, is
[1:31:52] this is a person who's just under such
[1:31:54] unrelenting interpersonal stress and
[1:31:57] feeling such a chronic sense of
[1:31:58] interpersonal unsafety that their body
[1:32:02] can't fight as well because so many of
[1:32:05] the physiological resources are just
[1:32:08] going to manage the sort of the daily
[1:32:10] wear and tear of being in a relationship
[1:32:13] like this.
[1:32:14] Narcissistic relationships are quite
[1:32:17] isolating almost by definition, but
[1:32:20] there's multiple reasons for that. At
[1:32:23] one level, it's because especially in
[1:32:24] more severe narcissistic relationships,
[1:32:27] the narcissistic person literally
[1:32:28] isolates the person from the world, from
[1:32:31] supports, from loved ones. So, that's
[1:32:33] one way the isolation can happen. At
[1:32:36] another level, we see that the isolation
[1:32:38] can be almost
[1:32:41] it's something that happens very slowly
[1:32:43] and the person in the relationship may
[1:32:45] even self-isolate. Partly because
[1:32:47] they're confused about what's happening
[1:32:48] in the relationship, partly because they
[1:32:50] feel ashamed about what's happening in
[1:32:52] their relationship. They may even be
[1:32:54] trying to protect other people around
[1:32:56] them from the relationship itself.
[1:32:59] Number three, especially when we're
[1:33:01] talking about vulnerable narcissism, not
[1:33:03] all narcissistic people are extroverted,
[1:33:06] gregarious, you know, sort of let's go
[1:33:08] out on the town attention-seeking
[1:33:10] narcissistic folks. Vulnerable
[1:33:12] narcissistic people can be quite
[1:33:14] socially anxious, socially awkward, and
[1:33:17] may not welcome the opportunity be with
[1:33:19] other people. So, they may very well say
[1:33:21] to partners or other people around them
[1:33:23] like, "I don't want to go to that party.
[1:33:25] That's dumb." And so, it just sort of
[1:33:27] tamps that down this access to other
[1:33:30] people, to social events, any of those
[1:33:32] sorts of things.
[1:33:34] But these three things can com- combine
[1:33:36] and then over time a person in one of
[1:33:38] these relationships is is either being
[1:33:41] isolated, feels isolated, and then as
[1:33:43] more time goes on, a person in one of
[1:33:45] these relationships actually feels like
[1:33:47] they're losing their mind. And it is
[1:33:49] very lonely and it is very isolating.
[1:33:51] It's very important why anyone should be
[1:33:54] watching an interview like this because
[1:33:55] you realize that you're not alone, but
[1:33:57] for the longest time people believe that
[1:34:00] what was happening in their relationship
[1:34:02] was something weird that was uniquely
[1:34:05] happening to them. And so, that would
[1:34:08] lead people to say, "Well, I don't want
[1:34:09] people to know this. I don't want people
[1:34:11] to think I'm weird." And most therapists
[1:34:13] didn't understand these dynamics. So,
[1:34:15] when you put those things together,
[1:34:17] people didn't even quite get what was
[1:34:19] happening to them, which again would
[1:34:21] leave them feel embarrassed, ashamed,
[1:34:23] confused, and then just sort of feeling
[1:34:25] cut off not only from themselves, but
[1:34:28] from the world at large. Many survivors
[1:34:30] of narcissistic relationships have said
[1:34:32] to me,
[1:34:33] "It feels hard to be in the regular
[1:34:35] world. Feels hard to feel see people who
[1:34:38] are in what feel like normal and healthy
[1:34:39] relationships." And so, people will say,
[1:34:41] "Yeah, I just wasn't going out as much."
[1:34:44] And narcissistic people can be very
[1:34:46] controlling. So, even if a person in one
[1:34:49] of these relationships attempts to build
[1:34:51] a social network,
[1:34:53] the narcissistic person in someone's
[1:34:55] life might say, "Where are you going?
[1:34:56] Who are you with? What are you going to
[1:34:58] do? Why do you need to do that?" Um
[1:35:00] tracking their whereabouts, all of it.
[1:35:03] So, it really can combine to person just
[1:35:06] getting isolated for a number of
[1:35:08] reasons, but the social isolation does
[1:35:11] so much harm to people in these
[1:35:13] relationships because frankly one of the
[1:35:15] only ways to heal from what happens in
[1:35:18] these relationships is by
[1:35:20] talking with or being with other people.
[1:35:22] And when that pathway is cut off, we've
[1:35:25] lost one of the biggest healing tools.
[1:35:28] There are a lot of reasons that people
[1:35:31] stay in narcissistic relationships even
[1:35:33] when they know it's happening. And the
[1:35:36] vast majority of people have at least
[1:35:37] one narcissistic relationship they can't
[1:35:39] easily get out of. There's some common
[1:35:42] reasons why people, if you will, stay in
[1:35:45] narcissistic relationships. And these
[1:35:47] include things like fear,
[1:35:50] still having love for the narcissistic
[1:35:52] person, having hope that the
[1:35:54] narcissistic person could still change,
[1:35:57] um fear of being alone, cultural
[1:36:00] reasons, it's not okay to get estranged
[1:36:03] from a family or get a divorce,
[1:36:05] practical reasons, everything from money
[1:36:08] to housing to everything else you could
[1:36:10] think of, nostalgia, um
[1:36:13] keeping the status quo. All of these
[1:36:15] things, and it could be more than one of
[1:36:17] these things, are all reasons people
[1:36:19] would stay in a relationship like this.
[1:36:22] There are also other
[1:36:24] sort of more psychological dynamics that
[1:36:26] can help us understand why people stay
[1:36:28] in these relationships. These include
[1:36:30] things like trauma bonding, something we
[1:36:33] call cognitive dissonance, the tension
[1:36:35] we feel when things aren't lining up
[1:36:38] right, right? Like this is our this is
[1:36:41] my spouse and they're treating me really
[1:36:43] badly. So, we kind of
[1:36:46] rationalize why they're why they're
[1:36:48] behaving badly. So, these kinds of
[1:36:49] things, again, especially things like
[1:36:51] trauma bonding, can make it very
[1:36:53] difficult for a person to readily get
[1:36:56] out of one of these relationships even
[1:36:58] when a person recognizes that what's
[1:37:00] happening in the relationship isn't
[1:37:02] healthy.
[1:37:03] One question that comes up is
[1:37:05] how is it that people are able to still
[1:37:07] love a narcissistic person after they
[1:37:09] have been so abusive?
[1:37:10] Couple things to keep in mind is just
[1:37:12] like narcissism itself is on a spectrum,
[1:37:14] so too is the level of abuse, right? And
[1:37:16] especially when we're in that mild to
[1:37:18] moderate end, there's still love for
[1:37:20] this person. Even, I hate to say it, at
[1:37:22] the severe end, too, there is still
[1:37:24] love. Love's a complicated emotion,
[1:37:26] right? And I I have to say as a
[1:37:27] psychologist, I'm always very careful to
[1:37:29] say, "You can't love someone who did
[1:37:31] this to you." Means different things to
[1:37:33] different people.
[1:37:35] This sense of love, whatever it might
[1:37:36] be, it might be attachment, it could be
[1:37:39] things like nostalgia, it could be that
[1:37:40] they're the father or mother or parent
[1:37:42] of your children.
[1:37:44] Uh it could be a sense of belonging, it
[1:37:46] could be that sense of history. There's
[1:37:49] a lot of things that go into this thing
[1:37:50] called love. Listen, I've talked to
[1:37:53] people who say, "There's a lot I don't
[1:37:54] like about them, but I love having sex
[1:37:56] with them. I love uh
[1:37:58] talking with them. They're so smart."
[1:38:00] Love's an interesting thing because many
[1:38:02] people who go through narcissistic
[1:38:04] relationships will say, "You know, I
[1:38:06] still love them or I still have love for
[1:38:07] them. I definitely don't like them, but
[1:38:10] I have love for them." And I think
[1:38:11] because love is such a complicated
[1:38:13] emotion and it's based on so many
[1:38:15] things, including things like history
[1:38:17] and experience, it gets to be a muddy
[1:38:20] place.
[1:38:21] But people will say, even after they've
[1:38:23] been through some really treacherous
[1:38:24] narcissistic relationships, will say, "I
[1:38:27] still love this person. I still have
[1:38:29] love for this person."
[1:38:31] Some of the work is around recognizing
[1:38:34] you can love someone
[1:38:36] and recognize that their behavior is a
[1:38:38] problem.
[1:38:40] And if you need get out of the
[1:38:41] relationship. People say, "If I see
[1:38:44] their behavior is a problem, then I
[1:38:45] don't love them." I said, "No,
[1:38:47] you still love them and you can identify
[1:38:50] their behavior is a problem." The word
[1:38:52] and becomes a really powerful word of
[1:38:54] healing cuz when we view things as
[1:38:56] either or, it feels like we're having to
[1:38:58] shut down very real emotions we're
[1:38:59] having. So, I don't know that anyone
[1:39:02] gets to judge why somebody would still
[1:39:04] or even question why somebody would
[1:39:06] still love someone who's brought so much
[1:39:08] harm into their life. I just think it
[1:39:09] gets into the complexity and nuance of
[1:39:12] what love means to each individual
[1:39:13] person.
[1:39:15] A lot of people hear this term hoovering
[1:39:17] and they don't know what it means. It
[1:39:19] actually derives from what they call a
[1:39:20] vacuum in the United Kingdom, a Hoover.
[1:39:23] So, to Hoover someone or to be Hoovered
[1:39:25] is to get sucked back in, typically into
[1:39:28] an unhealthy relationship. And hoovering
[1:39:30] is a very common part of the
[1:39:32] narcissistic relational dynamic. And
[1:39:34] what hoovering means is it's a person
[1:39:37] getting pulled back into something
[1:39:39] either that they are communicating that
[1:39:41] they want to leave, that they have
[1:39:43] already left, or in some cases,
[1:39:45] hoovering could be that after a
[1:39:47] conflict, there's a lot of tension, the
[1:39:49] narcissistic person might do a little
[1:39:51] bit of a love bomb to sort of bring
[1:39:53] someone back into the relationship, a
[1:39:55] new episode of idealization or
[1:39:57] seduction, especially if the
[1:39:58] narcissistic person doesn't want to lose
[1:40:00] the relationship. It is extremely common
[1:40:03] and a lot of people do get hoovered back
[1:40:06] in. And what's so unfortunate is how
[1:40:08] much shame people can feel when they get
[1:40:11] hoovered back in.
[1:40:12] We can only reassure anyone that to get
[1:40:14] pulled back into what was an important
[1:40:16] relationship, an intimate relationship,
[1:40:19] is very, very common, right? In fact,
[1:40:21] the the statistics from domestic
[1:40:23] violence suggests on average that a
[1:40:26] survivor of domestic violence will go
[1:40:27] back to their abuser seven times. So,
[1:40:31] that's sort of law of averages would
[1:40:34] dictate that everyone's going to get
[1:40:35] hoovered at least once. And it happens
[1:40:38] because the narcissistic person does do
[1:40:40] a love bomb part two, or they do give
[1:40:43] you the apology you want to hear, and
[1:40:44] all the stuff that was keeping a person
[1:40:46] stuck and trauma bonded and all of that.
[1:40:49] That all remains. It's not like all of
[1:40:51] that goes away. And with enough time
[1:40:54] after a betrayal, after a conflict, it's
[1:40:57] amazing how much
[1:40:58] things shift for us. It's not that we
[1:41:00] don't remember it, but the impact of it
[1:41:02] softens. And there may be things that
[1:41:04] somebody wants to get back to, the
[1:41:06] familiar. I mean, the familiar might be
[1:41:08] one of the most seductive things there
[1:41:10] is in the world. So, all of that makes
[1:41:12] hoovering a very, very potent and
[1:41:15] powerful dynamic. And especially
[1:41:17] because, again, narcissistic people are
[1:41:20] socially perceptive. They often know
[1:41:22] exactly what to say to pull somebody
[1:41:25] back into a relationship. And because so
[1:41:28] many people in narcissistic
[1:41:29] relationships are ambivalent, it's very
[1:41:32] easy to sort of prey on that ambivalence
[1:41:35] and get someone sucked back into one of
[1:41:36] these relationships.
[1:41:38] The one thing I'd want to say to
[1:41:40] somebody who's watching this and has
[1:41:41] just realized that they're in a
[1:41:43] narcissistic relationship is to breathe
[1:41:47] and take it slow.
[1:41:49] A lot of people will say, "Well, now I
[1:41:50] know that this and I know that I'm in a
[1:41:52] narcissistic relationship. It feels like
[1:41:54] a call to action. You have to do
[1:41:55] something right away."
[1:41:57] And I'll always tell people slow down.
[1:42:00] Healing is less about them and getting
[1:42:04] out of it than it is for you to start
[1:42:06] feeling safe in your body again,
[1:42:08] trusting yourself, breaking out of that
[1:42:11] cycle of self-blame.
[1:42:13] And that takes a minute. So, to anyone
[1:42:16] watching this, and you're saying, "Ooh,
[1:42:17] I think I'm in a narcissistic
[1:42:19] relationship. What do I do?" I'm going
[1:42:21] to tell you to take a few deep breaths,
[1:42:24] take a step back,
[1:42:26] read, educate yourself, take the time,
[1:42:29] seek out therapy,
[1:42:31] figure this out so you can proceed in
[1:42:34] making choices and decisions in this
[1:42:37] that are informed by your specific
[1:42:40] circumstance, and in a way that works
[1:42:43] for you. There is no one-size-fits-all
[1:42:46] guidance for people who are realizing
[1:42:49] that they are in narcissistic
[1:42:50] relationships.
[1:42:53] >> Chapter 3,
[1:42:55] how to grieve and recover after a
[1:42:56] narcissistic relationship.
[1:43:00] >> Many people ask me, "How do we grieve
[1:43:02] and recover after a narcissistic
[1:43:05] relationship?" And there are many ways
[1:43:07] to do that. Your narcissistic
[1:43:09] relationship didn't happen in a vacuum.
[1:43:11] It's not just about their behavior. We
[1:43:15] have backstories. We have
[1:43:16] vulnerabilities that come from our
[1:43:17] histories. And those vulnerabilities and
[1:43:20] backstories can make us very vulnerable
[1:43:22] to getting stuck in these relationships.
[1:43:24] I don't buy into this idea that there
[1:43:26] are people out there who are narcissist
[1:43:28] magnets, or who are suckers, or who are
[1:43:31] going out of their way to pick
[1:43:32] narcissistic people. Nobody's signing up
[1:43:34] for this, and I think that puts blame on
[1:43:36] the person who is
[1:43:38] gotten into one of these relationships,
[1:43:40] or even more than one of these
[1:43:42] relationships. But, if we can view these
[1:43:44] vulnerabilities and backstories as the
[1:43:46] places where
[1:43:48] it is harder for us to detect these
[1:43:49] dynamics, and to get out of these
[1:43:51] dynamics, then I think it can help us
[1:43:53] understand how our own histories
[1:43:56] made this so difficult for us, so we can
[1:43:59] be more compassionate to ourselves.
[1:44:02] By having that compassion for ourselves,
[1:44:04] we can break out of this cycle of "I'm
[1:44:06] wrong. I'm bad at relationships. I'm
[1:44:08] foolish. I'm a sucker. I'm a
[1:44:10] codependent, and instead say, these
[1:44:13] elements of my life actually made it
[1:44:15] very hard for me to see this. I get that
[1:44:17] now. And now that I am seeing it, I can
[1:44:20] understand why this unfolded. And some
[1:44:23] of the most common sorts of
[1:44:24] vulnerabilities and backstories, I mean,
[1:44:26] they're actually quite varied. I mean,
[1:44:28] some of the more classical ones are
[1:44:30] obviously coming from a narcissistic
[1:44:32] family of origin. That can definitely
[1:44:34] make someone more vulnerable to not
[1:44:36] spying the dynamics because it's what
[1:44:38] you know. It feels normal to you. You
[1:44:40] know, that can also be taken to people
[1:44:42] who grew up with trauma, adversity, or
[1:44:44] neglect. Anything that could have
[1:44:46] happened that would have impacted a
[1:44:48] child's ability to trust themselves and
[1:44:51] others. But interestingly, coming from a
[1:44:54] very, very happy family of origin can
[1:44:58] also make you vulnerable to getting
[1:45:00] stuck in a narcissistic relationship.
[1:45:02] Why? Because you got the message that we
[1:45:05] can love through this. We can power
[1:45:06] through this. We can talk it through,
[1:45:08] that there's always a way to find a
[1:45:10] solution. So, there's actually this kind
[1:45:12] of optimism that can come from that sort
[1:45:15] of growing up like that and having that
[1:45:17] kind of family behind you. The good
[1:45:19] news, though, is for people who did come
[1:45:21] from those close-knit, healthy, safe
[1:45:23] families, once you get into this and
[1:45:26] perhaps get out of it, you'll have a
[1:45:27] support network waiting for you. And to
[1:45:29] that point, optimism can actually be
[1:45:32] something that makes people vulnerable
[1:45:34] to getting stuck in these relationships,
[1:45:36] as too can being somebody who is a
[1:45:38] forgiver by nature. Like, I forgive
[1:45:40] people. I believe in second chances.
[1:45:42] That works great in a lot of places. It
[1:45:44] does not work well in these
[1:45:45] relationships. Second chances become
[1:45:48] 10th chances become 500th chances
[1:45:51] because you keep forgiving. And what we
[1:45:53] do know is narcissistic people typically
[1:45:56] don't take forgiveness as a call to
[1:45:58] change, but rather as a permission, I'm
[1:46:01] going to well, I'm going to keep getting
[1:46:03] away with this. So, there's not there's
[1:46:05] that lack of caring, that lack of
[1:46:07] awareness how their behavior or yeah,
[1:46:10] the not giving a damn that their
[1:46:11] behavior is hurting somebody else. We
[1:46:14] also see that people have a propensity
[1:46:16] to being fixers, rescuers, and
[1:46:18] problem-solvers
[1:46:20] can get stuck in these relationships as
[1:46:22] well. Like, anything can be fixed.
[1:46:24] There's a book I can read. There is a
[1:46:26] weekend retreat I can attend. There's
[1:46:28] couples therapy. There's this. There's
[1:46:30] that. There's got to be something. I
[1:46:32] mean, I have had people say, "Don't tell
[1:46:34] me nothing can be done." I'm like, "By
[1:46:36] nothing, if you mean can we change them?
[1:46:38] You cannot change them. So, that's off
[1:46:40] the list. We can certainly work with
[1:46:41] you." No, I believe everyone can change.
[1:46:44] And those people can definitely get in
[1:46:45] this sort of recursive loop. All of
[1:46:48] these backstories and vulnerabilities in
[1:46:50] them, it becomes really clear how that
[1:46:52] would get someone stuck. But these are a
[1:46:55] byproduct of the experiences we've had.
[1:46:57] And by the way, there is no high school
[1:46:59] class out there on how to detect a toxic
[1:47:02] relationship. Nobody is ever formally
[1:47:05] taught this. And until very recently,
[1:47:09] there was no way to learn about this
[1:47:11] anyhow. So, we're just getting to a
[1:47:13] place where we can shed light on these
[1:47:15] dynamics. So, if a person does have some
[1:47:17] of these vulnerabilities, had does have
[1:47:19] some of these backstories, they're in a
[1:47:21] position where they can say, "Ooh, I
[1:47:24] better pay attention to this. I better
[1:47:26] understand these dynamics cuz it would
[1:47:28] be really easy for me to get stuck in
[1:47:30] something like this."
[1:47:32] Radical acceptance is one of those terms
[1:47:34] that hits people hard, but a lot of
[1:47:36] people aren't sure what it is and what
[1:47:38] it's not because there's a lot of
[1:47:39] confusion about it. It's that word
[1:47:41] acceptance that throws people off cuz a
[1:47:43] lot of people take acceptance as I'm
[1:47:46] accepting this, which can feel like I'm
[1:47:48] signing off on this. And it's not that.
[1:47:51] Acceptance is a sort of this is how it
[1:47:54] is.
[1:47:55] This is it. And radical acceptance is
[1:47:58] not only is this how it is, it is not
[1:48:00] going to change. You would think, "Well,
[1:48:02] that's the moment the angels will sing.
[1:48:04] I get this." Not so simple.
[1:48:08] When we finally get a person to radical
[1:48:09] acceptance, and that's not an easy place
[1:48:11] to get to in the first place,
[1:48:13] the first reaction to that is often
[1:48:15] grief. because so many years have been
[1:48:17] invested in thinking I can change this,
[1:48:20] I can fix this, this is going to get
[1:48:21] better. We even future fake ourselves
[1:48:24] like
[1:48:25] it's going to get better when this
[1:48:26] happens, when that happens, when they
[1:48:27] get older, when they're an empty nester,
[1:48:29] when they have a kid, when they make
[1:48:30] money and none of those things ever
[1:48:32] happened, right? So radical acceptance
[1:48:35] becomes this moment when we're we have
[1:48:37] to realize and again with tremendous
[1:48:39] grief, it's the death of hope. It's this
[1:48:41] loss of innocence. Is it this is never
[1:48:44] going to be the thing I wanted it to be.
[1:48:46] This is never going to be the parent
[1:48:48] that I'd hoped to have or I wanted. This
[1:48:50] is never going to be the marriage I
[1:48:52] wanted. This is not what I wanted my
[1:48:54] kids to grow up in. These are heavy
[1:48:56] heavy things to metabolize and take in.
[1:49:00] So the first reaction people have is so
[1:49:02] much grief because that radical
[1:49:04] acceptance also has to be accompanied by
[1:49:07] realistic expectations and radical
[1:49:09] awareness that this is it. That I have
[1:49:13] to ratchet down my expectations for this
[1:49:15] relationship. I have to manage my
[1:49:17] expectations for this relationship. So
[1:49:19] once a person gets to radical
[1:49:21] acceptance, I often say like we need to
[1:49:23] have a rest stop here at the road
[1:49:25] because there is so much grief and so
[1:49:28] much sadness that people almost need a
[1:49:31] beat before they can go on to the next
[1:49:34] phases of the much harder work of
[1:49:35] healing.
[1:49:37] Until you radically accept what this is,
[1:49:40] the nature of these patterns, the nature
[1:49:42] of these traits, the nature of these
[1:49:43] behaviors, and even the things you were
[1:49:46] doing to keep this relationship going.
[1:49:48] And what by that I mean things like you
[1:49:50] were constantly appeasing the
[1:49:52] narcissistic person, reassuring them,
[1:49:54] walking on eggshells, taking care of
[1:49:56] everything yourself. All this stuff that
[1:49:59] you were doing in this relationship to
[1:50:01] keep it afloat. It's the awareness that
[1:50:03] none of that was also going to ever
[1:50:05] work. So it becomes the gateway because
[1:50:08] until you can see the unchangeability of
[1:50:10] these patterns, the person is going to
[1:50:11] keep spinning in this but this could be
[1:50:13] done, but this could be done or this is
[1:50:16] my fault, this is my fault, This is my
[1:50:18] fault. It is this understanding, full
[1:50:20] stop, that the behaviors and the things
[1:50:23] that have happened in this relationship
[1:50:25] are unacceptable.
[1:50:28] That is a heavy, heavy moment because
[1:50:31] the minute you see that they're
[1:50:32] unacceptable, and you can slowly give
[1:50:35] yourself permission to say, "That's not
[1:50:37] okay."
[1:50:38] That two things are happening
[1:50:40] simultaneously. You see the relationship
[1:50:42] more clearly,
[1:50:43] and a part of you is now coming alive of
[1:50:47] "It's not okay to treat me this way,
[1:50:50] anyone this way, but I'm part of that
[1:50:52] anyone. I should not be treated this
[1:50:54] way." This is a person now sort of
[1:50:56] emerging as a
[1:50:58] person separate from the narcissist that
[1:51:01] because for so long we were just sort of
[1:51:02] stuck in their kind of their command and
[1:51:05] control sequence, that that's how the
[1:51:08] relationship worked. But once we see it,
[1:51:10] it that's the only way to heal. You
[1:51:13] cannot heal unless you know what you're
[1:51:14] up against here.
[1:51:16] One of my favorite tools to build
[1:51:17] radical acceptance is actually probably
[1:51:19] the most painful tool to build radical
[1:51:21] acceptance, and it's something that it I
[1:51:23] call the ick list. And just cuz it's
[1:51:26] ick. It's really writing down all the
[1:51:30] terrible things that happened in the
[1:51:32] relationship, the terrible things that
[1:51:33] were said, the special events that they
[1:51:36] ruined, the ways you were put down. This
[1:51:39] is not an easy thing to do, and I'm so
[1:51:41] even calling it an ick list almost in
[1:51:43] some ways downplays how hard this is.
[1:51:45] I've had people say, "I started doing
[1:51:47] this and I slid into a depression. I
[1:51:48] could only do this with the help of a
[1:51:50] therapist." And that's all
[1:51:51] understandable because when you start
[1:51:53] seeing that list accumulate,
[1:51:56] there can be a lot of shame. Like, "Why?
[1:51:58] Ew, why did I put up with this?"
[1:52:01] There's also a lot of grief of goodness,
[1:52:04] like how did I spend so many years in
[1:52:06] this? There's a lot of strong negative
[1:52:08] emotion. But the ick list serves a very
[1:52:11] important function because there is
[1:52:14] again this this phenomenon called trauma
[1:52:16] bonding that's created by that
[1:52:18] intermittent going back and forth
[1:52:19] between good stuff and bad stuff, and
[1:52:21] good stuff and bad stuff, and normal
[1:52:22] stuff and abusive stuff. Just when we
[1:52:24] think we get it, it feels regular again.
[1:52:27] So, at those moments when we go back to
[1:52:30] the what feels like regular in one of
[1:52:31] these relationships, or that there's a
[1:52:33] hovering time coming up, like they're
[1:52:35] trying to suck you back into the
[1:52:36] relationship, you can look at this list
[1:52:39] and say,
[1:52:40] "No."
[1:52:41] "No, no, no, no, no. This isn't okay."
[1:52:43] Because when we're in those moments
[1:52:46] of euphoric recall, when you're like,
[1:52:48] "Maybe it wasn't that bad, and you know,
[1:52:50] we did have some good times." You got to
[1:52:53] be able to pull this list out and say,
[1:52:54] "Oh to God, no. I cannot. This is not
[1:52:57] okay." That is the function this ick
[1:52:59] list can really, really serve. It's a
[1:53:02] bit of like It's a bit of someone
[1:53:04] showing you a picture of yourself after
[1:53:06] you've had a hard night drinking. It
[1:53:07] should be enough to say, "Yeah, no, I
[1:53:08] don't think I'm going to drink tonight.
[1:53:09] Thanks, no." So, it really has that feel
[1:53:12] of you being reminded, but I've
[1:53:14] actually, as a as a psychologist, as a
[1:53:16] therapist, have sat in in session and
[1:53:19] we've constructed the ick list together,
[1:53:21] because they brought it all into
[1:53:22] session, so I remember it all. I'm
[1:53:24] saying, "And, yes, and And we'll make it
[1:53:26] together." And the client will say,
[1:53:28] "This is such a complicated process, cuz
[1:53:30] it hurts, but it's also really
[1:53:33] liberating, because this wasn't in my
[1:53:35] head." And this is the thing with
[1:53:37] keeping things in your head, especially
[1:53:38] in an abusive relationship, it's not
[1:53:41] just like a file cabinet in there. It's
[1:53:43] a very fussy file cabinet, and that file
[1:53:45] cabinet in our hippocampus is always
[1:53:47] trying to keep us safe. So, when stuff
[1:53:49] doesn't feel good, it'll sometimes push
[1:53:50] it aside. So, when we remember it, we
[1:53:53] got to get it down on paper. So, the ick
[1:53:55] list is a big one to me. And that
[1:53:58] relates to other practices of getting
[1:54:00] stuff out of here, out of your head and
[1:54:02] into the paper, including things like
[1:54:04] journaling and writing things down.
[1:54:06] It can really help people. When they can
[1:54:08] go back and even look at the narrative
[1:54:10] of what this relationship was, they can
[1:54:12] even start to see the up and the down
[1:54:14] and the up and the down.
[1:54:16] When it When we can write it down, it
[1:54:17] just takes on a different kind of heft,
[1:54:20] and it goes It's
[1:54:21] way to really promoting radical
[1:54:24] acceptance. And another big one, keeping
[1:54:26] on with the writing, one thing you
[1:54:28] never, ever, ever, ever, ever want to do
[1:54:31] with a narcissistic person once you go
[1:54:34] through radical acceptance is say,
[1:54:35] "Haha, I'm going to tell them I know
[1:54:38] they're narcissistic."
[1:54:40] No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Do not do
[1:54:43] it. But it's so tempting. Like, "Ha, I
[1:54:45] got your number."
[1:54:47] So, I I get tell people to do this
[1:54:49] thing. It's the the email or the letter
[1:54:51] you're never going to send, right? And
[1:54:54] if you are going to write it as an
[1:54:55] email, please don't put their their name
[1:54:56] cuz it is so easy for the cat to jump on
[1:54:59] exactly the button that's going to lead
[1:55:01] you to send that email. But write it
[1:55:02] out. Write the letter you've always
[1:55:04] wanted to write. All the you I see you
[1:55:07] and those things and how you broke me
[1:55:09] down and da da da da.
[1:55:11] And don't send it. I can't tell you how
[1:55:14] many said letters like that I've read in
[1:55:16] session with a client who wrote it. We
[1:55:18] break it down there. Some people give it
[1:55:20] to a good friend. Some people write it
[1:55:23] and burn it. They just needed to do it
[1:55:25] to let go of it. The thing you just
[1:55:27] don't want to ever do is send it to the
[1:55:29] narcissistic person. But anything that
[1:55:31] can release it for you, there is a
[1:55:34] tremendous power in getting stuff that's
[1:55:36] turning in your head out of you and
[1:55:38] someplace else. If you do write an ick
[1:55:41] list everyone though, please don't put
[1:55:43] it in a place where especially if you
[1:55:45] haven't left the relationship, it can be
[1:55:47] found on something like where there's a
[1:55:48] cloud account. I can't tell you how many
[1:55:51] people have written these on an iPad and
[1:55:53] then they were found. So, it could be
[1:55:56] a piece of paper. It could be something
[1:55:58] that's in a different device that's not
[1:55:59] on a network. You need them, but you
[1:56:01] also have to be sort of digitally wise
[1:56:03] when you do this kind of thing.
[1:56:05] There is so much grief that happens as a
[1:56:09] person heals from a narcissistic
[1:56:10] relationship.
[1:56:11] But a lot of people scratch their head
[1:56:13] and say, "Exactly what am I grieving?
[1:56:14] Have I really lost something here?"
[1:56:17] Grief happens whether or not you leave
[1:56:19] the relationship. Grief happens whether
[1:56:21] or not a relationship ends. Grief
[1:56:24] is how we process loss. And when you
[1:56:27] really step back and think about all the
[1:56:29] things we lose
[1:56:31] as we go through radical acceptance and
[1:56:32] healing, we lose a part of our history.
[1:56:35] We lose the dreams and aspirations and
[1:56:37] hopes we had for this relationship.
[1:56:40] We look back and recognize the family of
[1:56:42] origin you wish you were from, you lost
[1:56:43] that idea. It's a loss of innocence,
[1:56:46] right? It's a loss of time. It's a loss
[1:56:48] of what you hoped for your own children
[1:56:50] and the kind of household you wanted to
[1:56:51] raise them in. There's so many losses,
[1:56:55] right? It's the loss of yourself because
[1:56:58] of how much we had to abandon ourselves
[1:57:00] and sacrifice ourselves to make this
[1:57:03] relationship work.
[1:57:04] So, as we process these losses
[1:57:07] just using the word grief helps so many
[1:57:10] people say, "This was a loss." Cuz it's
[1:57:12] so easy to say,
[1:57:13] "Great. This was an abusive
[1:57:15] relationship. How glad am I to be done
[1:57:17] with it?" It's not how this works. This
[1:57:19] felt very real while it felt real. Your
[1:57:21] family feels real. So, having to say,
[1:57:24] "This is not ever going to be what I
[1:57:26] want." Cuz remember,
[1:57:28] the narcissistic person in most cases is
[1:57:29] not dead. They're still very much alive
[1:57:31] living their best life at this point or
[1:57:33] whatever life they're living. So,
[1:57:36] it is easier to grieve the dead than it
[1:57:38] is to grieve the living. And so, when
[1:57:40] someone is alive but has caused you a
[1:57:41] lot of pain and you're trying to figure
[1:57:43] this out, there is a lot of sort of
[1:57:46] again, letting it go. And I think one of
[1:57:48] the most important first steps is naming
[1:57:50] it as grief. Because when you can see it
[1:57:53] as loss rather than some triumph, "Ah,
[1:57:56] I'm so glad I got rid of this person."
[1:57:59] You're kind of bypassing the process,
[1:58:01] which doesn't work. You have to
[1:58:03] recognize it as a loss, to feel it as a
[1:58:05] loss. Listen, I've even told folks that
[1:58:08] to feel it as a loss, to be aware of the
[1:58:11] things that you've lost because you
[1:58:13] can't again, bypassing and saying, "All
[1:58:15] right, time, whatever. Glad to be done
[1:58:17] with them."
[1:58:18] When you do that, that stuff's going to
[1:58:20] sneak back on you. And I even tell
[1:58:21] people,
[1:58:22] go through grieving rituals. Whatever
[1:58:24] that looks like. When we're going
[1:58:25] through grief, there's things we do. We
[1:58:27] have funerals. Um we say eulogies. And
[1:58:31] I've had people do everything from
[1:58:33] they've taken objects from the
[1:58:34] relationship and put them in a box and
[1:58:37] buried it in something that looked like
[1:58:38] a little coffin. They've written things
[1:58:41] down and and like for example things
[1:58:43] that they were told about themselves
[1:58:45] that weren't true or parts of themselves
[1:58:48] that they gave up on and they take those
[1:58:50] and they write them on something that
[1:58:51] degrades in the water and they throw
[1:58:53] them in the sea or they drop them in a
[1:58:55] campfire just to sort of release that to
[1:58:58] sort of create that as sort of a loss
[1:59:00] that they're no longer going to do that
[1:59:02] to themselves anymore. It really depends
[1:59:05] but you can really kind of turn this
[1:59:07] into some form of
[1:59:09] a ritual to turn it into real grief. We
[1:59:12] have grief rituals to be able to process
[1:59:15] loss when somebody passes away. There's
[1:59:17] no reason that same kind of idea ritual
[1:59:19] can't be harnessed here. I've even said
[1:59:21] to folks that some people will say I
[1:59:23] feel like I I grieve places I used to
[1:59:26] go. Like I feel like I can't go to those
[1:59:28] places and I've even said to people when
[1:59:30] you feel ready you can do it alone. You
[1:59:32] can do it with friends. Maybe go back
[1:59:34] and reclaim those places. Maybe it's a
[1:59:36] hike. Maybe it's a restaurant you used
[1:59:39] to go to. Uh maybe it's a a town on the
[1:59:42] shore or something. But give yourself
[1:59:45] permission when you're ready to do that
[1:59:48] and revisit it.
[1:59:49] And again treat it as feel it in your
[1:59:51] body as the grief that it is but also
[1:59:54] give yourself permission to reclaim it.
[1:59:56] One of the hardest things to grieve is
[1:59:59] injustice and narcissistic relationships
[2:00:02] are a monument to injustice. The other
[2:00:05] challenge in narcissistic relationships
[2:00:07] is
[2:00:08] there is very rarely ever closure.
[2:00:10] You're never going to get the great
[2:00:12] explanation of what happened. They're
[2:00:13] not going to say I took you for granted
[2:00:16] and I see that now and I will spend the
[2:00:19] rest of my days
[2:00:22] angry at myself for losing a good person
[2:00:24] like you. There's never that moment,
[2:00:26] right? We do not get that closure moment
[2:00:28] and yet you still have to keep on
[2:00:30] keeping on.
[2:00:32] Then there's the bigger issue of repair.
[2:00:35] It is very, very hard to heal without
[2:00:39] repair, without justice, but it it can
[2:00:41] happen. And when we think about repair,
[2:00:43] we're thinking about things like
[2:00:45] accountability and taking
[2:00:47] responsibility. We're talking about
[2:00:49] apology. We are we're talking about
[2:00:52] somebody acknowledging that they did
[2:00:53] something that hurt us. That's not going
[2:00:55] to happen, either. So, in the absence of
[2:00:57] closure, in the absence of repair, in
[2:01:00] the absence of accountability, and
[2:01:01] frankly in the absence of justice,
[2:01:04] any trauma writer, even the great ones
[2:01:07] like Dr. Judith Herman, will say, "In
[2:01:09] the absence of justice, healing from
[2:01:11] trauma is harder, but it's not
[2:01:13] impossible."
[2:01:14] And maybe the justice is merely that you
[2:01:18] did finally see it. That now you're
[2:01:20] moving into a life where you get it, and
[2:01:22] you're not going to spend any more time
[2:01:25] trying to please and appease and be what
[2:01:27] the narcissistic person wants. You're no
[2:01:29] longer going to abandon yourself
[2:01:31] anymore. You're going to show up as
[2:01:33] yourself in the safe spaces. You're
[2:01:35] going to get this. You're going to do
[2:01:37] things to not reenact these cycles again
[2:01:40] and protect other people around you,
[2:01:41] particularly your kids, from from these
[2:01:44] sorts of cycles again. So, there's
[2:01:45] meaning, there's purpose, there's these
[2:01:47] higher-order things, but it does feel
[2:01:50] like an injustice, and I'm not going to
[2:01:52] lie, folks, that injustice piece can
[2:01:55] keep people stuck in their heads for a
[2:01:57] long time. You want justice, and it's
[2:02:00] hard cuz it does feel like the
[2:02:02] narcissistic person walks off into the
[2:02:05] sunset into their best life ever. Why?
[2:02:08] Because it's really easy for
[2:02:10] narcissistic people to pick up and start
[2:02:13] again because they don't feel as deeply,
[2:02:16] right? To them, finding a new partner
[2:02:19] within a week of you ending a
[2:02:20] relationship with them, or probably they
[2:02:22] already had that partner queued up
[2:02:24] before the relationship ended, and
[2:02:26] starting a new life, and starting a new
[2:02:28] family, and having a new wedding while
[2:02:30] still continuing to torture you in a
[2:02:31] divorce, that doesn't feel fair. That
[2:02:35] doesn't feel right. And the again, it's
[2:02:40] about grieving justice.
[2:02:43] Because life isn't fair. Narcissistic
[2:02:46] relationships remind us of that. And
[2:02:49] sometimes we'll get ourselves caught in
[2:02:50] these other loops like, why did this
[2:02:52] happen to me? Everything happens for a
[2:02:54] reason. No, it actually doesn't.
[2:02:56] Everything happens.
[2:02:59] That's the end of the sentence.
[2:03:01] And this relationship happened.
[2:03:03] And you will learn from it. And it
[2:03:06] really you're you're still standing. And
[2:03:08] I am always reminding survivors of
[2:03:11] narcissistic relationships who still
[2:03:13] believe in love, who still want an
[2:03:16] intimate relationship. That is a sheer
[2:03:18] act of courage that you got through that
[2:03:21] and you still have this belief in the
[2:03:24] human spirit and the capacity of love. I
[2:03:26] know that it feels like they won, but
[2:03:29] that narcissistic person still has to
[2:03:31] walk through the world as their hollow
[2:03:33] selves. And sure it seems like they're
[2:03:35] killing it on Instagram and they're on
[2:03:38] yet another vacation and they're buying
[2:03:40] another new car, but you can lift the
[2:03:42] hood. You know what's under there. And
[2:03:45] so many people also even live with the
[2:03:46] fear that the next person's going to get
[2:03:48] a better version of them. I'm like,
[2:03:49] there is no 2.0. There is no better
[2:03:51] version. This is it. And the next person
[2:03:54] is going to get the same version that
[2:03:57] you got. What's interesting though for a
[2:04:00] survivor of a narcissistic relationship,
[2:04:02] the next person's actually going to get
[2:04:05] a much more evolved version of you. You
[2:04:07] will have changed. The narcissistic
[2:04:09] person will not. There is some justice
[2:04:11] in that, but it takes a while for our
[2:04:14] hearts and our souls to catch up to that
[2:04:18] rationality.
[2:04:20] Some of the most common misconceptions
[2:04:22] about healing from a narcissistic
[2:04:24] relationship relate to ideas that you
[2:04:27] have to leave to heal, you have to go no
[2:04:30] contact to heal, that one of the ways to
[2:04:33] heal is to quickly get into a new
[2:04:35] relationship. and those things aren't
[2:04:38] they're not true. Plenty of people heal
[2:04:40] just fine, even though they can't get
[2:04:42] out of every narcissistic relationship.
[2:04:45] Now, I'm not going to pull punches here.
[2:04:47] If you can't get out of the narcissistic
[2:04:50] relationship,
[2:04:51] healing's a little harder because you're
[2:04:53] still in the presence of the bad
[2:04:56] behavior. You're still having to, you
[2:04:58] know, be a party to the gaslighting and
[2:05:00] the entitlement and the rage and the
[2:05:01] dysregulation and all of it. You're
[2:05:04] still having to deal with it and it
[2:05:05] still triggers you and it still doesn't
[2:05:06] feel good, but now you know what it is.
[2:05:09] And hopefully you've built up other
[2:05:10] sources of support and all of that. It's
[2:05:12] possible. It's It's a bit like a
[2:05:15] um
[2:05:17] It's like weather, right? You know, you
[2:05:19] There's some sunny days and then all
[2:05:20] these really stormy awful days come up,
[2:05:22] and then there's some good days. Like,
[2:05:24] there's going to be these moments when
[2:05:25] you have to interact with the
[2:05:26] narcissistic person that makes it
[2:05:27] harder, but you're still going to heal.
[2:05:30] You don't have to get out of the
[2:05:32] relationship to heal, and I think that
[2:05:34] that messaging has been so harmful to
[2:05:36] people who can't just readily get a
[2:05:38] divorce, who aren't going to go no
[2:05:39] contact with a family member. And that
[2:05:41] raises this issue of no contact. No
[2:05:44] contact is a term that's gotten very
[2:05:45] popularized, and it's gotten a lot of
[2:05:48] sort of media coverage in the last year
[2:05:50] or so. And no contact is really defined
[2:05:53] as a person just really
[2:05:54] ending contact with another person.
[2:05:57] And people who are survivors of these
[2:05:59] relationships
[2:06:01] will sometimes opt to do that. Say, "I
[2:06:03] can't do this anymore. This is too
[2:06:04] harmful. This is too abusive. I don't
[2:06:06] want anything to do with this person
[2:06:07] anymore."
[2:06:08] No contact is very painful, but it's
[2:06:10] simply not an option
[2:06:12] that is available to everyone. It often
[2:06:14] works. It's one of those things where
[2:06:16] when people do it, um it works. I'm not
[2:06:18] going to disagree with that. When you no
[2:06:20] longer have to have contact with someone
[2:06:22] who's emotionally abusive, you feel
[2:06:24] better. It's not exactly a surprise.
[2:06:27] But for so many people, you can't go no
[2:06:29] contact with the person you are raising
[2:06:31] children with. You can't go no contact
[2:06:35] with a um with certain family members,
[2:06:37] especially given cultural variables and
[2:06:40] all of that that you just don't family
[2:06:41] you're like in my culture people are not
[2:06:43] family a stranger just doesn't happen or
[2:06:46] it can't happen at that stage in life.
[2:06:47] If there's financial interdependence may
[2:06:49] not be able to go no contact. So there's
[2:06:52] a long list of reasons why people can't.
[2:06:54] So when it's put out there as the only
[2:06:55] way you can heal
[2:06:57] it's sheer nonsense and it also leaves
[2:06:59] people feeling hopeless. Sometimes you
[2:07:01] don't get to go no contact now, but down
[2:07:03] the road you can and sometimes you might
[2:07:05] go no contact and then life happens and
[2:07:09] you have to then spend time with a
[2:07:11] narcissistic person again, but you
[2:07:13] likely got a lot of healing out of the
[2:07:15] way as you were in that no contact
[2:07:18] period. But just because you can't go no
[2:07:20] contact doesn't mean you're going to
[2:07:23] you're going to be stuck that you can't
[2:07:25] heal. It really comes down to engaging
[2:07:27] differently and that's why I always say
[2:07:29] like let's make it less about no contact
[2:07:31] and make it more about disengagement.
[2:07:33] You know, it's definitely
[2:07:35] engaging differently, engaging in a more
[2:07:38] limited way. One of the mistakes we make
[2:07:40] with narcissistic people is we still
[2:07:42] think that they care. Don't tell them
[2:07:44] what's going on in your life. Don't tell
[2:07:45] them the good news. Don't tell them the
[2:07:47] bad news. Don't tell them what you're
[2:07:49] worried about. Just kind of stick to the
[2:07:51] weather. You know, or stick to really
[2:07:53] banal kind of superficial topics.
[2:07:58] That in and of itself can leave you
[2:08:00] feeling more whole saying
[2:08:02] I protected me. I didn't go to them like
[2:08:05] a little kid running up to their mother
[2:08:06] when they're 5 years old. Look at my
[2:08:08] picture. Look at my picture. And the
[2:08:09] mother can't be bothered. We learn that
[2:08:11] there's other people in our life who
[2:08:14] will receive us with safety and love,
[2:08:17] not that person. So we may still have to
[2:08:19] talk to them, but we can choose what we
[2:08:21] share.
[2:08:23] One of the most crucial ingredients to
[2:08:25] healing from a narcissistic relationship
[2:08:27] is social support. There's no way to I
[2:08:31] think heal without that in some way,
[2:08:33] shape or form. Now what social support
[2:08:34] looks like can look different for
[2:08:36] different people. In some cases it may
[2:08:38] be a group of friends. In some cases it
[2:08:40] may be colleagues in a workplace, some
[2:08:42] people may be a 12-step community, for
[2:08:44] some people it might be therapy or a
[2:08:46] support group, for some people it's you
[2:08:49] know their family of origin. It In some
[2:08:52] people it's the family they've created.
[2:08:54] And for a lot of people it's a hybrid of
[2:08:56] people picked from all these spaces. You
[2:08:58] know again, Judith Herman very wisely
[2:09:00] and many other trauma writers have
[2:09:02] suggested that trauma that happens in
[2:09:05] relationship can only be healed in
[2:09:06] relationship. And narcissistic abuse or
[2:09:10] what happens in a narcissistic
[2:09:11] relationship is relational harm that
[2:09:13] happened in a relationship. We have to
[2:09:16] learn that relationships are safe again.
[2:09:19] It is so tempting to think, I'll tell
[2:09:22] you how I'm going to heal. I am going to
[2:09:24] move into a castle and I'm going to pull
[2:09:26] up all the bridges off the moat and
[2:09:28] nobody's getting close to me again.
[2:09:30] I suppose you're never going to get hurt
[2:09:32] again, but you're really going to miss
[2:09:34] out on the entire human experience. And
[2:09:36] so it's the it's that ability to slowly
[2:09:40] find safe places. It's even the
[2:09:42] willingness to connect to our bodies, to
[2:09:45] recognize that our body's already
[2:09:46] telling us when we feel safe or unsafe.
[2:09:50] We can pay attention to how we feel
[2:09:51] after we spend time with people. I
[2:09:53] always say, after you spend time with a
[2:09:55] healthy safe person, you feel about 2 in
[2:09:57] taller and you feel kind of like there's
[2:10:00] all these new things I can do. You feel
[2:10:02] full of hope. And after you've spent
[2:10:04] time with somebody who's unhealthy,
[2:10:06] maybe antagonistic, just unsafe,
[2:10:10] you feel crushed. You feel like, why
[2:10:12] bother? You might you might even devalue
[2:10:14] yourself more. You feel it. You feel it
[2:10:16] in your body. You feel more comfortable.
[2:10:18] You might feel more tense. You You
[2:10:20] almost carry the tension and the
[2:10:22] toxicity of the interaction. So, we can
[2:10:25] pay attention to all of that. We can
[2:10:28] attend to all of that. But it becomes so
[2:10:31] important to realize
[2:10:33] that
[2:10:35] discernment is such a key element of
[2:10:38] healing. And by discernment I mean it's
[2:10:40] very easy after you've gone through a
[2:10:42] narcissistic relationship to view the
[2:10:44] world as black and white. People are
[2:10:46] terrible or great. And also, we might
[2:10:50] doubt our capacity to recognize
[2:10:53] if a person is safe or not. This isn't
[2:10:55] about red flag seeking, it's about how
[2:10:57] do I feel when I'm with this person. We
[2:11:00] can take things slower. Again, we can
[2:11:02] pay attention to how we feel, and that
[2:11:04] discernment can slowly make meeting new
[2:11:07] people a safer process. So, slowly but
[2:11:12] surely building up places where you feel
[2:11:14] validated, where you feel seen, where
[2:11:16] you feel valued. Again, and using
[2:11:18] therapy as one of those places as a
[2:11:20] sounding board, this all becomes really
[2:11:23] a crucial,
[2:11:24] um, invaluable, necessary part of
[2:11:26] healing from relational abuse like we
[2:11:29] see in narcissistic relationships.
[2:11:32] So, rewriting your story is such an
[2:11:35] important part of healing from a
[2:11:36] narcissistic relationship. And what do
[2:11:38] we mean by that? Even when a person goes
[2:11:40] into, for example, a therapist's office,
[2:11:42] you're kind of asked to relate the story
[2:11:44] of your life, right? We all maintain a
[2:11:45] narrative, but it's not an objective set
[2:11:48] of facts. And when we've been through a
[2:11:50] narcissistic relationship, it's very
[2:11:52] easy for that narrative to be one of us
[2:11:55] being damaged, of us being foolish, of
[2:11:58] us being a sucker, of being played, of
[2:12:01] not being strong, of not being able to
[2:12:04] set boundaries, of being bad at
[2:12:05] relationships, right? It's easy to get
[2:12:07] into that kind of thinking. But the
[2:12:09] other way to think about it is
[2:12:12] what did you learn? Like even from the
[2:12:15] worst of circumstances, we've learned
[2:12:17] something. Right? You may have very well
[2:12:20] learned that the part of yourself that
[2:12:21] you devalue, the flexible,
[2:12:24] accommodating, kind part of yourself,
[2:12:26] it's actually a really great part of
[2:12:27] yourself. You're not a sucker.
[2:12:29] Right? So, you can start thinking about
[2:12:31] yourself in very different ways. I
[2:12:33] actually in my book, and it's not you, I
[2:12:35] use the trope of the hero's journey.
[2:12:37] And I did that because every time I read
[2:12:41] a myth or watched a film about the
[2:12:43] hero's journey, I'm like, "This looks
[2:12:45] like something was getting over a
[2:12:46] narcissistic relationship cuz it kind of
[2:12:49] always is. It makes me wonder if that
[2:12:51] entire mythical structure of every story
[2:12:53] ever written by human beings was about
[2:12:56] getting over a devastating relationship.
[2:12:59] Because what really happens is a person
[2:13:03] has the courage to one day radically
[2:13:05] accept that this is what this
[2:13:07] relationship is. This is an important
[2:13:09] relationship and seeing this clearly is
[2:13:12] going to upend my life. And then start a
[2:13:15] very complicated process of healing
[2:13:18] where other people will come and go,
[2:13:20] those fellow travelers who may be
[2:13:21] therapists, friends. Heck, I even
[2:13:24] consider a book or podcast to sometimes
[2:13:26] be a fellow traveler. There's going to
[2:13:28] be that sort of rock bottom moment when
[2:13:30] you think maybe I'm the problem, maybe
[2:13:32] I'm the bad one, I'm going to die alone.
[2:13:35] What is my life ever going to be? I'm a
[2:13:38] ter- I come from this terrible family,
[2:13:40] all of that. And slowly but surely, and
[2:13:43] we talk about this in trauma healing,
[2:13:47] all the ways we had to break ourselves
[2:13:49] into all these pieces and parts to
[2:13:52] survive this relationship. The
[2:13:54] self-abandonment, the self-silencing,
[2:13:56] the self-suppression, the quitting
[2:13:59] ourselves. We can reintegrate all of
[2:14:02] those parts together into someone who
[2:14:04] looks very different than the person who
[2:14:07] was in that relationship. And we can
[2:14:09] really understand, no, we weren't a
[2:14:12] sucker or a fool.
[2:14:14] But all we were trying to do
[2:14:16] was keep ourselves safe. Our great sin
[2:14:20] was that we believed in love and we
[2:14:22] believed in the goodness of people and
[2:14:24] we just did it with the wrong person.
[2:14:27] And in doing that, we can really turn
[2:14:30] what we feel is a story of our weakness
[2:14:33] into one of our strength,
[2:14:36] into the courage of being willing to see
[2:14:38] it.
[2:14:39] And so many survivors actually find it
[2:14:42] very helpful to pay it forward somehow.
[2:14:45] They talk to other survivors, they'll
[2:14:47] write blogs, they'll make art. I have
[2:14:50] worked with thousands and thousands of
[2:14:51] survivors who have shared that I mean
[2:14:54] endless numbers of ways that they've
[2:14:56] attempted to help other people. They'll
[2:14:58] volunteer in domestic violence programs,
[2:15:00] they'll they'll volunteer in other ways
[2:15:02] in their community knowing for example a
[2:15:04] food pantry maybe getting food to a
[2:15:06] person who is in a really really abusive
[2:15:09] relationship and this food may be what
[2:15:11] she needs to get back on her feet again.
[2:15:12] Like people start finding meaning and
[2:15:14] purpose in very different ways.
[2:15:17] But it does mean the willingness to go
[2:15:19] back and not tell the story of yourself
[2:15:21] as somebody who was a sucker who got
[2:15:23] played but rather someone who was
[2:15:26] courageous enough to love
[2:15:28] and is actually willing to
[2:15:30] walk it back and keep giving life a
[2:15:33] chance. That's a very very courageous
[2:15:36] thing to do. I have seen
[2:15:39] thousands and thousands and thousands of
[2:15:42] people not only survive after these
[2:15:44] relationships but thrive. I have seen
[2:15:47] people go back to school, finish high
[2:15:49] school, get trained in a new field.
[2:15:52] People who've gone on to dream jobs.
[2:15:54] People who've gone on to fall in love
[2:15:56] again, write books, make films, change
[2:16:00] the world.
[2:16:01] And the possibility is unbelievable
[2:16:04] because the moment you stop
[2:16:06] self-abandoning
[2:16:08] to try to attach to someone who is
[2:16:10] unsafe and unkind, you open up these
[2:16:14] reservoirs of strength in yourself. And
[2:16:16] really it is a transformative energy. I
[2:16:19] think we're in an amazing time in
[2:16:21] history where we're understanding these
[2:16:22] dynamics. I actually shudder to think
[2:16:25] how much human potential we've lost to
[2:16:27] people being in invalidating
[2:16:28] relationships, but I take a lot of hope
[2:16:31] from the belief that now people get this
[2:16:34] and they're turning their lives around.
[2:16:36] They're taking their lives back and as a
[2:16:38] result we're all going to benefit from
[2:16:40] all of the great stuff that happens as
[2:16:43] people take their stories back.
[2:16:45] So to anyone who's watching this and is
[2:16:48] now realizing that yep right now I'm in
[2:16:51] a narcissistic relationship.
[2:16:53] I want people to realize that there's
[2:16:55] nothing that you're going to do to
[2:16:58] change their behavior.
[2:17:00] And that the effort can't be on changing
[2:17:02] them,
[2:17:03] but rather to sort of shift the lens,
[2:17:06] shift the light back onto yourself and
[2:17:09] say, "Now that I get this, how can I
[2:17:12] engage with this differently?
[2:17:14] How can I find spaces in my life where I
[2:17:16] can actually show up as my real self?
[2:17:19] That now I can give myself permission
[2:17:22] to stop devoting most of my
[2:17:24] psychological bandwidth to making this
[2:17:27] relationship work.
[2:17:29] That somebody abusing me
[2:17:33] is not my fault.
[2:17:34] And there is no boundary or
[2:17:36] communication I can pull out of my hat
[2:17:41] to make this better.
[2:17:43] So it's really about no longer throwing
[2:17:45] the good money after bad as we do in
[2:17:48] these relationships,
[2:17:49] but to really invest in yourself and in
[2:17:52] the safe, healthy relationships you
[2:17:54] have. I write about something called the
[2:17:56] 90/10 rule. What we do is we put about
[2:17:59] 90% of our psychological resource, self,
[2:18:03] time, energy, all of it into the most
[2:18:06] unhealthy, harmful relationships in our
[2:18:09] life, probably with hopes of avoiding
[2:18:11] conflict and keeping them stable,
[2:18:13] giving only 10% to the best,
[2:18:15] growth-oriented, safe spaces.
[2:18:18] Flip the math. Phone it in to the
[2:18:20] unhealthy relationships, take that 90%
[2:18:24] and put it into this big, lush, fertile
[2:18:26] garden that are the healthy people in
[2:18:29] your life, because from that will come
[2:18:31] more and more not only healthy social
[2:18:34] ties, but now all of you in a mutual,
[2:18:37] reciprocal way, all of you in that
[2:18:40] healthy network of people are all
[2:18:42] growing because you have someone who's
[2:18:44] bearing witness to the goodness that is
[2:18:47] you. We just got to stop putting our
[2:18:49] time and effort into trying to
[2:18:52] make difficult people not be difficult
[2:18:56] and put it into the things that we
[2:18:57] already know are working.
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