Transcript
[0:00] Hey everyone, this is Kai Dickens and
[0:02] you're listening to the Reincarnation
[0:04] Records from TTT Media.
[0:14] Welcome back to episode two of this
[0:16] series. Last week, we met Carol Bowman,
[0:18] whose 5-year-old son, Chase, described
[0:20] being a soldier on a battlefield. Chase
[0:22] started talking in the first person
[0:25] tense. I'm a soldier. I have a uniform
[0:28] on. It's dirty. I have a big gun with a
[0:31] sword at the end. After Chase talked
[0:33] through that memory, something
[0:35] extraordinary happened. His terror of
[0:37] loud booming sounds disappeared, and the
[0:39] severe eczema on his wrist in the same
[0:41] place where he remembered being shot
[0:43] cleared up within days. The event was so
[0:45] powerful and perplexing that for Carol,
[0:48] it was the beginning of a much larger
[0:49] question. Could some children's fears,
[0:52] phobias, and even physical symptoms be
[0:54] connected to memories they carried from
[0:56] a past life? and if so, could speaking
[0:59] about those memories help them heal?
[1:02] This question launched Carol on a
[1:03] multi-year search for other American
[1:05] families and evidence that healing was
[1:07] possible. I started taking these cases
[1:11] seriously and writing everything up. I
[1:14] wrote a few articles and I had that ad
[1:18] in Mothering Magazine and the cases were
[1:20] trickling in and I was excited with
[1:23] every case that came my way. Of course,
[1:26] you know, they were all little gems for
[1:28] me. And at the same time, I started
[1:31] graduate school. I just felt I need the
[1:33] background in counseling to be able to
[1:36] be taken seriously, too.
[1:38] >> Carol's family had just moved to
[1:40] Philadelphia from North Carolina. She
[1:42] was doing all the research on the side
[1:44] while also going to school and raising
[1:46] her kids.
[1:46] >> You know, we were in turmoil for a
[1:48] little while. Carol was trying to bring
[1:50] children's past life memories into the
[1:52] mainstream in the '9s with no road map,
[1:54] no cultural permission, no internet or
[1:57] social media to find her people, and
[1:58] very little reason to believe that
[2:00] anyone would take her seriously.
[2:02] >> I didn't know how I was going to jump
[2:04] from not being a writer to being a
[2:06] writer. I never written anything more
[2:08] than a college paper. Even people who
[2:11] consider themselves writers find that
[2:12] authoring a book is daunting. And for
[2:14] Carol, [clears throat] whose time was
[2:15] being consumed with this mission, she
[2:17] needed to figure out how to make the
[2:18] work financially viable. And for that,
[2:20] she needed an agent. I kept getting
[2:22] rejection letters from agents.
[2:25] [laughter] Who would want to read this?
[2:27] >> However, when you're pushing against an
[2:29] accepted worldview or paradigm, there's
[2:30] often one person or moment that makes
[2:33] turning back impossible.
[2:34] >> I guess there was an event that really
[2:36] pushed me over the edge.
[2:37] >> A family came along who needed help. And
[2:39] unlike many of the cases we'll explore
[2:41] this season that are filled with
[2:42] evidential names and places, dates and
[2:45] hobbies and details that can actually be
[2:47] checked against the life of a real
[2:49] person who lived. This case was more
[2:51] ambiguous, but it was more reflective of
[2:53] the kinds of cases that Carol was
[2:55] actually hearing from parents all over
[2:56] the country. Confusing and emotional,
[2:59] difficult to prove, but deeply real and
[3:01] distressing to the people living through
[3:03] it. And so this family enters our story
[3:05] not because the case was easy to
[3:06] validate against a real life, but
[3:09] because Carol's work with them would not
[3:11] just end up changing the child's life,
[3:12] but the course of Carol's. In 1992, I
[3:15] got a phone call from a mother in
[3:17] Chicago, Colleen, whose son was having
[3:20] what she believed were past life
[3:21] memories that were deeply troubling him.
[3:24] >> Colleen had found Carol through an ad
[3:25] she put in Mothering Magazine.
[3:27] >> I'm Colleen Hawin. I live in the
[3:29] Milwaukee, Wisconsin area and my
[3:31] thoughts on reincarnation were I had
[3:34] heard of it just slightly and I thought
[3:37] it was pretty weird like how could you
[3:40] be born again? I was thinking you're in
[3:42] the same body, you know, how would that
[3:44] work? So, I thought it was like a very
[3:46] strange idea. Colleen had three sons.
[3:49] Blake was the middle child and before
[3:51] the age of three, there was nothing
[3:53] really unusual about him. He was a very
[3:56] fun, happy, golucky kid. Always playing.
[4:01] Uh he has two brothers, an older and a
[4:03] younger. So the three boys and they're
[4:06] always playing, [laughter]
[4:07] you know, and having a good time. Um he
[4:10] was just very active, very climbing.
[4:13] [laughter]
[4:14] Your typical three-year-old little boy,
[4:17] happy. Then one day, Colleen was in her
[4:20] kitchen when Blake shouted toward the
[4:21] street. So the first time he mentioned
[4:24] something, he was at the front door. I
[4:27] was in the kitchen and I heard him yell
[4:30] out the door. Trevor, which is his older
[4:33] brother, "Get out of the street. The bus
[4:35] is coming."
[4:37] So I went to the door right away to make
[4:39] sure Trevor's okay. And when I got to
[4:42] Blake, he had his hand on his ear and he
[4:44] said, "His ear hurt." And so I said,
[4:48] "Well, why does your ear hurt?" I'm
[4:49] thinking [clears throat] he has an ear
[4:50] infection or something. and he said, "A
[4:52] truck hit me." And [laughter]
[4:55] right away I'm confused. And I'm, "Well,
[4:58] who hit you with a truck?" Here's Carol
[5:00] Bowman again.
[5:00] >> Colleen assumed he was confused and
[5:03] meant a child had hit him with a toy
[5:05] truck in preschool. When she questioned
[5:07] him, he said, "No, a real truck." He
[5:10] said, "No, a big truck." I said, "A big
[5:12] truck that drives on the street?" And he
[5:14] said, "Yeah." You know, I'm thinking,
[5:17] "Did something happen with a [laughter]
[5:19] babysitter or whatever?" in it. And I
[5:21] said, "Well, where were you?" And he
[5:22] said, "In the street." And I said,
[5:24] "Well, where were mom and dad when this
[5:27] happened? Gone bye-bye at the store."
[5:29] So, I'm trying to put it together like,
[5:31] "What in the world is he talking about?"
[5:34] I'm thinking, "Well, maybe he saw
[5:35] something on TV." So, I was like, "Oh,
[5:38] this happened on TV, right?" And he
[5:40] said, "No, it happened in the street."
[5:43] And now he was irritated with me, like,
[5:45] "Don't you know this happened?" And I
[5:47] said, "Well, where were you hurt?" and
[5:49] he pointed to his left side and all
[5:51] over. And then he said the wheels went
[5:54] over me and he took his arms and just
[5:56] like waved over his head looking up like
[5:58] he could see from like the wheels going
[6:00] over him on top of him and he was hurt
[6:03] all over. He said and I so I said, "Did
[6:06] you die?" Cuz I'm thinking, "Well, now
[6:08] he'll have to say that's silly." And he
[6:11] just said very matterof fact, "Yes."
[6:15] He just said yes. He died. He's not
[6:18] being silly about it. He really never
[6:20] made up stories anyway. But I'm
[6:22] thinking, well, if he's thinks he died,
[6:24] then how could he be here? And um so I
[6:27] thought I'm just going to like ignore
[6:29] it. Kids do sometimes say really weird
[6:32] things that parents dismiss. And Colleen
[6:34] didn't want to encourage it. But as
[6:35] we'll discover over the course of this
[6:37] series, these memories don't usually
[6:39] need prompting or questions. Kids bring
[6:41] them up on their own. About a week
[6:43] later, a garbage truck went past the
[6:45] house and he said, "That's like the
[6:48] truck that hit me." And I was like,
[6:50] "Wow,
[6:52] that's okay. It's not going away. He
[6:55] still remembers this. It's not just a
[6:57] story." But um again, I thought, "Okay,
[7:00] well, we we won't talk about it."
[7:02] [gasps]
[7:03] And um and we didn't. And although the
[7:06] family stopped talking about the truck,
[7:08] something in Blake appeared to change.
[7:10] And it wasn't good. He really had a
[7:12] complete personality change from playing
[7:15] and running and jumping and he'd be just
[7:19] sit on the couch, kind of stare at the
[7:21] TV or stare out the window or just not
[7:23] really engage with his two brothers who
[7:25] might be playing. He kept telling me his
[7:27] head hurt, his arm hurt, his leg hurt.
[7:30] And so I thought, "Oh, well, he he just
[7:33] wants attention." So I'd say, "Oh, well,
[7:35] would you like me to rub that for you or
[7:37] no? Go away." Blake was not just
[7:39] withdrawn. He was angry and the anger
[7:42] was aimed directly at his mother and she
[7:44] didn't know why. Nothing had happened
[7:46] between them that would explain it. But
[7:47] whenever she tried to comfort him, he
[7:49] pushed her away. Is this big middle
[7:51] child syndrome? I did not put two and
[7:53] two together as far as anything to do
[7:55] with what he told me about the truck
[7:57] hitting him. I'm just thinking, I must
[7:59] be doing something wrong. Where have I
[8:00] gone wrong as a mother? His demeanor
[8:02] [clears throat] was very flat. He really
[8:04] couldn't sustain any energy towards
[8:07] playing. I I would even put on music
[8:13] and the kids would get up and dance and
[8:15] we'd all dance and bop around and he
[8:17] might do it for 30 seconds and then he'd
[8:21] sit down and he'd be done. The other two
[8:23] boys would still be dancing and come on
[8:26] Blake and no, he would just sit on the
[8:28] couch, thumb in his mouth, just a very
[8:30] blank look on his face, not engaged. I
[8:33] felt that he was clinically depressed.
[8:35] How can a 3-year-old be clinically
[8:37] depressed when there's nothing that
[8:40] happened that would cause it? And I
[8:42] would say, Blake, I love you. And he'd
[8:45] say, "I love you, then I hate you." And
[8:48] I'd think, gosh, so he's angry at me. I
[8:51] don't know why. I just was so confused.
[8:54] I did not know what to do with him. And
[8:56] I think it's fair to interject here,
[8:58] especially as a parent, the kids have
[9:00] big feelings all the time. They get
[9:02] really moody and they say things they
[9:03] don't mean or that don't even make sense
[9:05] and they melt down a lot over things
[9:07] that seem tiny to parents. But what
[9:09] Colleen was describing felt different.
[9:11] Her son had a personality shift. He
[9:13] became depressed and withdrawn and never
[9:16] went back to his happy, playful baseline
[9:18] like most kids do, often in minutes if
[9:20] not hours. So, Colleen, did you take him
[9:22] to a therapist?
[9:23] >> I did not take him to any therapist. I
[9:26] felt a lot of guilt and shame. Probably
[9:29] was the biggest reason. How do I go into
[9:31] a therapist and will they think I've
[9:34] done something wrong? Will they blame
[9:37] me? I was very afraid, very ashamed. And
[9:41] this situation lasted for months. Blake
[9:43] is depressed. He's complaining about the
[9:44] left side of his head and arm and leg
[9:46] hurting. Here's Carol Bowman again. She
[9:48] took Blake to the doctor, but there was
[9:50] nothing physiologically wrong with him.
[9:52] It wasn't until some months later when
[9:54] the family took a trip to London that
[9:56] Colleen started putting the pieces
[9:58] together. That's coming up after this
[10:00] break.
[10:05] Welcome back to the Reincarnation
[10:06] Records. We went on a family trip to
[10:09] London for Christmas. So that was in
[10:11] December. And we were shopping with all
[10:14] the Christmas bustle and everything. And
[10:17] they had the three boys. And Blake was
[10:20] actually in the stroller that his
[10:22] younger brother Dne would normally be
[10:24] in. It was one of those umbrella
[10:26] strollers, so there's nothing in front
[10:27] of him. And we stopped on this traffic,
[10:31] this island. So all the people were
[10:33] crammed in on the island. You really
[10:35] couldn't even move. And the traffic
[10:39] police blew her whistle. Everybody had
[10:41] to stop to let traffic come through.
[10:44] A truck came around the corner, was
[10:47] going to come past us. Blake stood up
[10:51] and stood right in the street in front
[10:53] of the truck and he just stood there
[10:55] kind of blank like we were yelling,
[10:57] "Blake, Blake, get back." I tried to
[10:59] reach him but my arms weren't long
[11:00] enough. My husband grabbed him, pulled
[11:03] him back, and it was so frightening.
[11:11] The truck driver slammed on his brakes,
[11:14] beeped, yelled at us to to watch our
[11:18] bloody child. That's swearing in
[11:19] England, [laughter] bloody. And it was
[11:22] so scary. And I want to pause here again
[11:24] to say that three-year-olds can be very
[11:26] impulsive, and they certainly can step
[11:28] into danger without understanding what
[11:30] they're doing. But what Colleen
[11:31] describes is not a child chasing a ball
[11:34] or trying to balance on a yellow traffic
[11:35] line. Blake stood up from his stroller,
[11:38] walked in front of an oncoming truck,
[11:40] faced it headon while staring it down.
[11:43] And obviously, we don't know what was
[11:44] happening inside of his mind, but to
[11:46] Colleen, it did not feel like ordinary
[11:48] toddler impulsivity. It somehow felt
[11:50] connected to the memory he'd been
[11:51] repeating for months. And one thing I've
[11:53] learned working, especially on the
[11:55] telepathy tapes, is often mothers just
[11:57] have an instinct that's right. He just
[11:59] stood there, blank face, and I thought,
[12:02] does this have something to do with what
[12:05] he told me a few months ago, that he was
[12:07] hit by a truck, and is he trying to be
[12:09] hit by a truck again? I was beside
[12:12] myself with fear and grief and pain and
[12:17] wondering what is going on. When we did
[12:21] get back from our trip in London, that's
[12:23] when I saw Carol Bowman had an ad in the
[12:26] back of Mothering Magazine and it said
[12:29] something to the effect, "Do you believe
[12:32] your child has had a past life?" You
[12:34] know, something to that effect and her
[12:37] name and number and to call her. So, a
[12:40] seed was planted in her mind, as
[12:42] far-fetched as it seemed to her. Could
[12:44] Blake be having memories or pain
[12:46] associated with a past life? I was like,
[12:48] "Oh my gosh, like I was meant to see
[12:51] that ad
[12:53] who maybe can point me in the right
[12:55] direction can help me understand this.
[12:57] What is this?" So, I called her. Here's
[13:00] Carol again, and she remembers this case
[13:02] very well. She was just two going on
[13:05] three. I think Colleen was more
[13:07] frightened than anything. She really
[13:09] didn't know what to do.
[13:11] >> By the things I was telling her, she
[13:13] validated that you, you know, kind of
[13:16] the age of three is when children start
[13:18] remembering these memories and they can
[13:21] start verbalizing them. So, he was at
[13:23] the right age. She explained how they'll
[13:27] be very matterof fact, which I had
[13:29] explained. Yes, it wasn't a fantasy
[13:32] story. It wasn't like silly making up.
[13:34] So just with how she was explaining how
[13:37] this worked with children and what she
[13:39] has learned from her research, it all
[13:42] did seem to fit. So I felt like, okay,
[13:45] she knows what she's talking about.
[13:48] And I felt like she was just, [laughter]
[13:52] you know, kind of [clears throat] a
[13:53] godsend. I explained that to a very
[13:56] young child, a past life memory feels
[13:59] and appears to be as real as something
[14:02] that happened days or weeks ago.
[14:04] Children carry beliefs and feelings with
[14:06] them from their previous lives into the
[14:09] present. The continuum of consciousness
[14:12] from death through rebirth. I explained
[14:15] to her the my biggest fear was what had
[14:18] happened in London where he got up and
[14:21] stood in front of the truck. And if she
[14:25] explained it, I forget the term she
[14:27] used, but how sometimes it's like a
[14:29] psychological
[14:31] term that sometimes people will repeat a
[14:36] trauma in order to try and fix it. She's
[14:39] referencing what psychologists sometimes
[14:41] call repetition compulsion or traumatic
[14:43] reenactment. The idea is that a person
[14:45] may unconsciously return to a scene or
[14:48] pattern or feeling of a trauma almost as
[14:50] if part of them is trying to master it
[14:52] or change the ending or make sense of
[14:54] what happened. Part of their
[14:56] consciousness is still stuck in that
[14:58] past life experience, usually a trauma,
[15:02] and they don't know that they made a
[15:04] transition into another body. they can't
[15:06] distinguish past from present.
[15:09] >> And to me, this tracked because over the
[15:10] course of working on this series, I
[15:12] found that many kids talk about their
[15:14] memories in first person or present
[15:16] tense. So, from that perspective, if
[15:18] this really was happening, if his
[15:20] reincarnation memories were real, it
[15:22] must feel like there isn't a separation
[15:25] between one life and the next. She said,
[15:27] "When I go to comfort Blake about his
[15:30] aches and pains and his sadness, he
[15:32] pushes me away." At that point, I
[15:34] suspected that Blake was confusing the
[15:38] former mother with Colleen. That was a
[15:40] light bulb moment for me. I thought,
[15:43] "This is why he's behaving in such a
[15:46] clinically depressed way. He's angry at
[15:49] me for not being there protecting him
[15:52] from being hit by a truck." And that's
[15:54] why, you know, the I love you then I
[15:55] hate you. That was the best way he could
[15:57] describe it is just facts. Mommy didn't
[16:01] save me. Mommy was gone when this
[16:04] happened. She didn't love me. Then Carol
[16:08] gave me suggestions on how to help Blake
[16:11] through it. I told Colleen to wait until
[16:13] she was alone with Blake and he was
[16:15] relaxed before bedtime or bath time. A
[16:18] quiet time where he'd be receptive. That
[16:21] was very important, not while he was
[16:22] busy doing something.
[16:24] >> I imagine this must have sounded really
[16:26] strange to Colleen. I told her what I
[16:29] tell every other parent. Listen and
[16:32] acknowledge Blake's memory, joy in his
[16:35] reality,
[16:36] and let him know that she knew he was
[16:39] hit by a truck. So, I tucked him into
[16:42] bed, got him all comfortable, kind of
[16:44] gave him a little back scratch, and got
[16:46] him all just relaxed. And then, and I
[16:49] was scared to do this because
[16:51] [laughter and gasps] I'm going to talk
[16:53] to my three-year-old son about when he
[16:55] lived a different life. So I started out
[16:58] and I said, "Blake, were you hit by a
[17:01] truck?" He said, 'Yeah.' And so he's
[17:03] still remembering. He told me his head
[17:05] hurt, his arm hurt, his leg hurt. And I
[17:08] said, "Well, you know, when you were hit
[17:10] by that truck, you had a different
[17:12] body." And he kind of looked like, "Oh."
[17:16] And I said, [music] "And you had a
[17:18] different mommy
[17:20] and you had a different life." And he
[17:22] was like all [music] of a sudden eyes
[17:24] bright just total different look on his
[17:27] face. I had a different mommy. I said,
[17:30] "Yeah, you I had a different body."
[17:33] Yeah. And then I said something to the
[17:36] effect of, "You know, and now you're
[17:38] safe. I'm your new mommy and I love you
[17:41] very much. And you have a daddy and you
[17:44] have your brothers and I named his nana
[17:46] and how everybody loves him and that
[17:48] he's safe." Blake needed to know that he
[17:52] made this transition into a new life and
[17:54] that he was now protected by her.
[17:57] Listening to this, I had the same
[17:59] question that I imagine a lot of parents
[18:00] would. Would saying something like this
[18:02] to a toddler scare them more? I mean,
[18:04] hearing that you had a different body, a
[18:06] different mother, a different life. From
[18:08] my point of view, it sounds like
[18:09] something that could really overwhelm or
[18:11] even freak out a child. But Colleen said
[18:14] the opposite happened. He just lit up.
[18:17] The look on his face was amazing. And I
[18:20] was thinking, "This is going well."
[18:22] [laughter] Now, this is something I did
[18:24] not tell my husband I was going to do
[18:25] this because I thought he's going to
[18:27] tell me I can't. You can't tell a
[18:29] three-year-old that that he has a
[18:30] different new body and all that. So, I
[18:32] didn't tell him. And then I thought,
[18:35] well, okay, that went really well. He
[18:37] seemed to receive that nicely. And I'm
[18:40] thinking, well, this is probably going
[18:42] to be a lot of conversations where I
[18:43] have to remind him or just kind of keep
[18:46] going through it.
[18:47] >> I was hoping this would work because I
[18:49] didn't know what else Colleen could do.
[18:51] >> So, the next morning he gets up. His
[18:54] demeanor was very different. He's
[18:56] playing with his brothers, laughing and
[18:59] jumping around, and I'm waiting for him
[19:01] to like sit down on the couch again. I'm
[19:03] waiting for it to end, and it didn't.
[19:06] And I remember saying to my husband, I
[19:07] said, "Do you notice anything different
[19:09] about Blakey?" He said, "Yeah, he's
[19:11] playing." And I said, "Yeah, you want to
[19:14] know why?" And then I told him, and I
[19:17] remember him saying, "I never would have
[19:19] believed it if I hadn't seen it with my
[19:21] own eyes, this transformation."
[19:24] And I mean, I was nervous for the next
[19:26] few days, but he never went back. It was
[19:28] done. It was like healed, like, "Oh, we
[19:31] got our Blake back." She said Blake was
[19:33] back to his old smiley self as he had
[19:35] been before he started remembering the
[19:37] accident.
[19:38] >> And to me, one of the most interesting
[19:40] things about this case is what happened
[19:41] to his bodily pains. All of the aches
[19:44] and pains that he had been complaining
[19:46] about for months on the left side of his
[19:48] body completely went away.
[19:51] >> So unbelievable. I remember saying to
[19:53] her how well it worked and how wonderful
[19:55] it was. And just with that one
[19:58] conversation, he got it and it just
[20:01] changed everything. And then I remember
[20:03] saying, you know, more parents need to
[20:05] know about this. I I went through really
[20:08] hell and [gasps and laughter]
[20:10] without Carol, you know, I wonder what
[20:12] would have happened to Blake if all all
[20:14] through his life he felt his mom didn't
[20:17] love him or, you know, would he have
[20:19] ended up on drugs or I don't know what
[20:21] would have happened. By that time, I'd
[20:23] been doing this for about what, five
[20:25] years or so. And I knew that's what
[20:27] parents wanted. You know, no one was
[20:30] telling parents, "This is normal, and
[20:32] here's what you do." And Colleen was
[20:35] going to become more than just another
[20:36] parent that Carol helped. Colleen was so
[20:38] deeply moved by the shift she witnessed
[20:41] in her son that she also wanted other
[20:43] parents out there to know that this kind
[20:44] of healing might be possible. And I
[20:47] said, "I'm going to write to Oprah.
[20:49] [laughter] She's into this a little bit
[20:51] of woo woo." she was and all that. And
[20:54] he said, "Well, I'm going to write to
[20:55] Oprah." Carol said, "Well, you do that."
[20:58] [laughter]
[20:59] So, I did and nothing happened. She
[21:03] wrote a letter to Oprah and they had
[21:05] filed it away in a file that read
[21:08] children's phobias, which was not
[21:10] exactly what it was. Maybe a year later,
[21:14] a producer or somebody called me. I gave
[21:17] her Carol Bowman's number. So they
[21:19] called Carol and this eventually turned
[21:23] into a whole episode on Oprah about
[21:25] children's past lives. Carol, how did
[21:27] that feel? Because up until then you
[21:29] were kind of, you know, privately
[21:30] toiling away. Did this feel like, you
[21:32] know, a big break?
[21:33] >> When I got the call from Oprah, I knew I
[21:36] had to do it and I was petrified. I had
[21:39] never done any public speaking before
[21:41] [laughter]
[21:42] and I just found the steel in me. Carol
[21:46] Bowman says many children do remember
[21:48] their past lives easily and look for
[21:50] opportunities to express them. She spent
[21:53] the last six years researching and
[21:54] writing about children's past life
[21:55] experiences.
[21:56] >> Young children, as soon as they become
[21:59] verbal, like around age 2 to about age
[22:01] seven, can have these memories and
[22:03] they're unrecognized in this culture.
[22:06] >> On this show, Colleen's case was also
[22:07] explored and Oprah interviewed Chase,
[22:10] Carol's own son, whose battlefield
[22:12] memory had started Carol's work in the
[22:14] first place. Now, Chase says he was just
[22:17] five when he first remembered being a
[22:19] black soldier in the Civil War.
[22:22] >> What I love is that the producers even
[22:24] brought in an illustrator to help Chase
[22:26] bring the visions trapped in his mind to
[22:28] life. And a Civil War historian took a
[22:30] look at the illustrations and the
[22:31] details that Chase had recounted.
[22:33] >> By nature, I'm skeptical. I need uh I
[22:36] need to see more evidence. Everything he
[22:37] says is consistent with things that
[22:39] could have happened, though. Oprah was
[22:41] balanced and thoughtful and her taking
[22:43] it seriously was a gamecher for Carol.
[22:45] >> It aired in 94 at the height of Oprah's
[22:48] popularity and she was fantastic. She
[22:51] made it easy for us. Oprah certainly
[22:53] elevated me from housewife to
[22:57] researcher and my research changed
[23:00] because I was getting so many more cases
[23:02] >> and in many cases the public was
[23:04] teaching her about this phenomena. One
[23:06] thing she learned from parents writing
[23:07] in was that not all cases were centered
[23:10] on trauma. In fact, there were often
[23:11] just sweet, small little stories that
[23:13] caused Carol to marvel. I remember a
[23:15] case of one little boy who lost a button
[23:18] on his pants and he went into his
[23:20] mother's sewing kit, got the thread
[23:23] needle, and sewed the button perfectly
[23:26] on his pants. He was four years old, by
[23:29] the way. And when his mother asked him,
[23:31] "How do you know to do that? I never
[23:33] taught you how to sew." He said, 'Well,
[23:35] I used to do it before when I was a
[23:37] sailor on a boat. And he described an
[23:41] old wooden boat that creaked at night
[23:43] when he was trying to sleep. He told his
[23:46] mother exactly where he learned this,
[23:48] and I thought that was amazing. We're
[23:50] going to take a quick break right there,
[23:52] but when we get back, Carol's journey
[23:53] changes forever as more cases flood in,
[23:56] including a case that would become one
[23:58] of the most well-known and carefully
[24:00] investigated American cases in
[24:02] reincarnation history.
[24:09] Welcome back to the reincarnation
[24:11] records. After Oprah, I was doing a lot
[24:14] of interviewing. I got a good publishing
[24:17] contract. So, it's kind of like a rags
[24:19] to rich's story with the publishing and
[24:22] everything just fell into place. The
[24:24] cases Carol had been collecting over the
[24:26] past six years, the research, the phone
[24:28] conversations, the dream of writing a
[24:30] book that could help parents was
[24:32] suddenly on its way.
[24:33] >> My first book, Children's Past lives,
[24:36] was published in March of 1997.
[24:39] >> And with that greater exposure came what
[24:41] would become one of the best known and
[24:44] most widely publicized American cases of
[24:46] a child who appeared to remember a past
[24:49] life. In 2001, I found a remarkable case
[24:53] rich in verifiable detail.
[24:55] >> It's being called the case for
[24:57] reincarnation.
[24:58] >> Two downto-earth parents who thought
[25:00] they understood the mysteries of life.
[25:03] That is until their toddler began to
[25:05] talk.
[25:06] >> But long before it reached a national
[25:07] audience, the story unfolded outside of
[25:10] public view with two confused and
[25:11] concerned parents who sought Carol's
[25:13] help privately.
[25:14] >> The James Lininger case. It became the
[25:17] best known American case of a child's
[25:20] past life memories.
[25:21] >> Carol had found the case she'd been
[25:23] searching for, an American modern case
[25:25] with names and places, military records,
[25:28] eyewitnesses, surviving members, and
[25:30] maybe most importantly, parents who
[25:32] didn't believe in reincarnation and did
[25:33] not want any of it to be true. James
[25:35] Lightinger was born in 1998 to Andrea
[25:38] and Bruce, a Christian couple living in
[25:40] Louisiana. And from almost the beginning
[25:42] of James' life, he had one obsession,
[25:45] airplanes.
[25:46] >> One of James' first words was airplane.
[25:50] And the only toys he wanted were
[25:52] airplanes.
[25:52] >> And that in and of itself is not
[25:54] extraordinary. Lots of little kids
[25:56] become fixated on trains and fire trucks
[25:58] and planes. But with James, the
[26:00] fascination had a strange edge to it,
[26:02] which became really apparent when he was
[26:04] able to talk. When James was two, Andrea
[26:07] was shopping with him and found a toy
[26:09] plane and said, "Oh, look. Here's a
[26:11] plane. It even has a bomb at the bottom.
[26:14] She handed it to James and he turned it
[26:16] upside down and said, "That's not a
[26:17] bomb, mama. That's a drop tank." I'd
[26:19] never heard of a drop tank. I didn't
[26:21] know what a drop tank was.
[26:22] >> That's the voice of James' mom, Andrea,
[26:24] from an interview she did on ABC Prime
[26:26] Time in 2004, almost 4 years after James
[26:29] first started to have his memories. We
[26:31] could not reach the Liningers for an
[26:33] interview, so we're going to rely on
[26:34] some of these archival news interviews
[26:36] to help tell their story. But it's
[26:38] important to know that Carol and the
[26:39] family were deep in this mystery for
[26:41] years before it went public. And here's
[26:43] his dad, Bruce.
[26:44] >> I took him to the Kavanaaugh Flight
[26:46] Museum that every time we went to the
[26:48] area where the World War II aircraft
[26:50] were located, he would just stand there
[26:53] and point, mesmerized.
[26:54] >> Little James recognized the Steely War
[26:57] Machines with a certain familiarity and
[27:00] comfort. This trip to the flight museum
[27:02] happened when he was 22 months old. And
[27:04] there's old home video of James
[27:06] inspecting the planes, knowing things
[27:08] about them, pointing at them, and that's
[27:10] obviously not enough to build a case on.
[27:12] But then the nightmares began. Here's
[27:13] Carol Bowman again.
[27:14] >> He would scream and thrash and cry
[27:17] saying airplane crash, plane on fire.
[27:19] And he would repeat it again and again.
[27:21] >> I'd wake him up and he'd be screaming
[27:23] and he'd always be laying on his back
[27:24] kicking his feet up at the ceiling. And
[27:26] I'd say, "Baby, what were you dreaming
[27:27] about?" He'd say, "Elane crash on fire.
[27:29] The little man can't get out.
[27:30] >> When Andrea and Bruce asked him who
[27:32] little man was, he said, "That's me."
[27:35] They asked, "Do you remember little
[27:37] man's name?" He would always say,
[27:39] "James."
[27:40] >> Which I want to add was the little boy's
[27:42] name. So that doesn't necessarily seem
[27:44] odd, at least not yet.
[27:46] >> He was having these nightmares four to
[27:48] five times a week, and no one was
[27:50] getting any sleep. One thing that gave
[27:52] me pause when going through all the old
[27:53] tape of interviews by the parents was a
[27:55] moment when his dad Bruce asked why his
[27:57] plane went down in the first place. And
[27:59] James said very matterofactly because it
[28:02] was shot. And then when Bruce asked who
[28:05] shot the plane, young James seemed
[28:07] flabbergasted and annoyed that his dad
[28:09] didn't know.
[28:10] >> I'll never forget the look on his face.
[28:11] He went the Japanese.
[28:15] >> James was two at the time. And if you
[28:17] talk to most parents out there, toddlers
[28:19] do not know that America and Japan were
[28:21] ever at war. Here's an interview that
[28:23] James' mom did with ABC.
[28:24] >> I knew what he watched on television. I
[28:26] knew what stories I read to him. I'm a
[28:28] protective first time southern mother.
[28:31] >> But James kept talking and the parents
[28:33] started to ask simple questions to try
[28:35] to understand more. You know, where was
[28:36] this coming from? Why was he saying it?
[28:39] >> They asked, "Do you remember what kind
[28:40] of plane you flew?" He would always say,
[28:43] "A Corsair."
[28:44] >> The Corsair. The plane that young James
[28:47] mentioned was a World War II fighter
[28:49] plane. It entered combat in 1943 and was
[28:52] heavily used in the Pacific, especially
[28:54] by the Marines.
[28:55] >> Not only did James remember flying a
[28:57] Corsair, he demonstrated knowledge of
[28:59] the plane's peculiarities. Like the time
[29:02] he was flipping through a book about
[29:03] planes,
[29:04] >> he got to the Corsair and he said,
[29:05] "That's a Corsair." And he goes, "You
[29:07] know what? They used to get flat tires
[29:10] all the time." And here's Carol Bowman
[29:12] again recounting from her notes some of
[29:14] the early questions the parents asked.
[29:16] They asked, "Do you remember where your
[29:18] plane took off from a boat? Do you
[29:21] remember the name of the boat, the NMA?"
[29:24] Bruce said, "That sounds Japanese."
[29:27] James replied, "It's American." This
[29:29] period of question and answering did not
[29:31] just happen in a single day. But as this
[29:33] detailed information trickled in, his
[29:35] dad, Bruce, was searching for an
[29:37] explanation. How did his son know all
[29:39] this information about World War II? And
[29:41] was any of it even correct?
[29:42] >> Bruce went to his computer to see if he
[29:45] could verify any of this information. He
[29:47] found that there was indeed an American
[29:50] aircraft carrier called the NMA Bay that
[29:52] served in the Pacific in World War II.
[29:54] >> And then came a really weird moment.
[29:56] >> During the Christmas holiday, Bruce had
[29:59] received a book about the Battle of
[30:00] Wuima and was reading it while James sat
[30:03] on his lap. They got to a page with an
[30:06] aerial shot of Euima and 2-year-old
[30:08] James said, "Daddy, that's where my
[30:11] plane was shot down." And he repeated
[30:14] that statement.
[30:15] >> And in Carol's records, it was noted
[30:17] that his dad, Bruce, felt shocked. I
[30:19] mean, what 2-year-old says that?
[30:21] >> He was even more shocked when he found
[30:23] through an internet search that Bay, the
[30:26] aircraft carrier, was in that battle,
[30:28] the Battle of Ewima. I mean, at this
[30:31] point, someone in their periphery had to
[30:32] start thinking past life. Andrew was
[30:34] putting together the pieces, and she
[30:37] believed that James was remembering a
[30:39] past life, but Bruce felt it was heresy
[30:43] to believe that this was a case of
[30:45] reincarnation.
[30:46] And he was on a mission to disprove his
[30:49] son's statements and protect his own
[30:52] beliefs. And because reincarnation feels
[30:54] so beyond the boundaries of what many of
[30:56] us are taught, we'll spend time later in
[30:58] the series exploring where reincarnation
[31:00] fits into the world's religious
[31:01] traditions. Because it's more
[31:03] complicated than many people realize,
[31:05] many of the monotheistic faiths like
[31:06] Judaism and Christianity and Islam
[31:09] actually debated the validity of
[31:10] reincarnation throughout their history
[31:12] and have some sects that believe in it.
[31:14] But now back to Carol. So Carol, when
[31:15] did you come into their lives? Andrea's
[31:17] mother sent her a copy of my first book,
[31:19] Children's Past Lives, because they were
[31:22] desperate for guidance. The most
[31:23] pressing issue was his nightmares. These
[31:26] nightmares persisted for months. Carol
[31:29] emailed back, willing to help.
[31:31] >> I told her what I tell every other
[31:32] parent. Join his reality. Ask open-ended
[31:35] questions. Acknowledge what he was
[31:37] saying, assure him that that was
[31:39] something that happened before and that
[31:42] he was now in a new life in a new body.
[31:44] And it did seem to help because a few
[31:46] weeks later, Andrea emailed Carol to
[31:48] thank her.
[31:48] >> She followed my advice and the
[31:50] techniques worked.
[31:51] >> The nightmares immediately started
[31:54] reducing in frequency. He went down from
[31:56] three or four times a week to maybe one
[31:58] a week, one every other week. And at
[32:00] that point was when he started to
[32:02] articulate more about these past life
[32:04] memories.
[32:05] >> More details came. It was almost as if
[32:07] by his parents joining his reality, he
[32:09] felt more able to share. He began to
[32:11] draw pictures of propeller planes being
[32:13] shot down from boats in these frenetic
[32:16] drawings which Andrea shared with me.
[32:18] There was fire and enemy flack in the
[32:20] sky. Here's his mom again from an
[32:22] interview she did on Fox and Friends.
[32:24] >> It was almost a pathological process. He
[32:26] would put the planes and the ships and
[32:28] then he would almost be acting out a
[32:29] battle. He would be shooting and firing
[32:32] and he would always sign the drawings
[32:34] with James 3. When his parents asked him
[32:38] why he signed his drawings this way, he
[32:40] said, "Because I'm the third James."
[32:42] They asked if he could remember the
[32:44] names of any of his friends. He said,
[32:46] "Jack. Jack Larson. He's a pilot, too."
[32:51] >> Jack Larson. That name will matter
[32:53] later. But at this point, it was just
[32:55] one more impossible sounding detail from
[32:57] a toddler. And none of this was sitting
[32:59] well with Bruce, James's dad.
[33:01] >> I was not just skeptical. I was adamant
[33:04] that this was not happening in my house.
[33:07] and my my belief system rebelled against
[33:10] the concept and the idea of
[33:12] reincarnation and past lives. Bruce was
[33:15] so intent in figuring out this mystery
[33:18] that he started going to reunions of the
[33:20] NMA Bay veterans in the guise of doing
[33:23] research for a book about the Noma Bay.
[33:27] >> Okay. I kind of love that.
[33:28] >> Yeah, I know. But he actually needed
[33:30] more information about the crew that he
[33:32] couldn't find in his online searches.
[33:34] There was a veteran named Leo Pipe, now
[33:36] in his 80s, that served on the NMA Bay,
[33:39] the aircraft carrier that James talked
[33:41] about as a toddler. And Bruce initially
[33:43] reached out to him to kind of put an end
[33:45] to this reincarnation nonsense.
[33:46] >> I wanted to disprove it.
[33:48] >> And here is Leo Pipe talking about his
[33:50] conversation with Bruce, James' father.
[33:52] >> He asked [clears throat] a few questions
[33:54] about, "Did I know some of the people?"
[33:56] Oh, yeah. I remember those people. And
[33:59] he got uh very quiet. Jack Larson was a
[34:03] real person. And here's Bruce recounting
[34:05] that story on Fox and Friends in 2004.
[34:08] >> What I found out by contacting a
[34:11] veterans organization, never expecting
[34:13] to confirm this name Jack Larson. I
[34:16] asked a guy named Leo Piatt, "Do you
[34:17] remember a guy named Jack Larson?" And
[34:19] he says, "Oh yeah, he flew off one day
[34:20] and we never saw him again." So it led
[34:22] me to believe initially that that's who
[34:25] had been killed. meaning his dad was
[34:27] thinking Jack Larson was the pilot who
[34:29] was shot down in the Pacific and
[34:30] possibly the memories that his son was
[34:32] tapping into somehow. And if that was
[34:34] the case, it would disqualify the
[34:36] reincarnation theory because his son
[34:37] kept saying his name was James. However,
[34:40] the family soon discovered that Jack
[34:42] Larson was not actually shot down over
[34:44] the Pacific. He was alive and well and
[34:47] living in Arkansas. So, they were back
[34:48] to the drawing board. Jack Larson was
[34:51] real. The name checked out, but it
[34:52] wasn't who died. But with the help of
[34:54] veterans, Bruce was able to find out
[34:56] something he could not find online or
[34:59] anywhere. In fact, it was Ralph Carver,
[35:01] a veteran in his early 80s, who helped
[35:04] fill in the missing piece. Carver had
[35:06] also flown from the deck of the NMA Bay.
[35:08] On March 3rd, 1945, he took part in a
[35:11] strike against the Japanese during the
[35:13] Battle of Ewima. Flying beside Ralph
[35:16] Carver that day was another Noma Bay
[35:18] pilot, Lieutenant James Houston Jr. And
[35:22] here's a clip of an interview with Ralph
[35:24] Carver.
[35:24] >> We experienced uh pretty heavy in
[35:27] aircraft fire, but uh this was the most
[35:29] intense that I experienced at any time.
[35:32] >> And then there was a bright light at the
[35:34] front of James Houston's plane.
[35:36] >> I saw the hit.
[35:39] I would say he was hit head on. Yeah.
[35:41] Right on the middle of the engine.
[35:43] >> There was one pilot, just one pilot
[35:46] whose plane was shot down in the way
[35:48] James described near Euima. His name was
[35:51] James Houston Jr.
[35:54] >> And because this veteran's name was
[35:55] James Jr., then little James Lininger's
[35:58] signature suddenly made sense. He would
[36:01] have been the third James if he truly
[36:03] felt like he was the reincarnation of
[36:04] James Jr.
[36:05] >> He died in 1945 at the age of 21 and he
[36:09] flew a Corsair. And at this point,
[36:12] looking over the notes of the case and
[36:14] talking to Carol, Bruce, having tried
[36:16] desperately to not allow reincarnation
[36:18] to be the answer, seemed to relent.
[36:20] >> It just crystallized in my mind, this
[36:24] this has to be who we're talking about.
[36:26] You know, my meter of skepticism was
[36:29] starting to go over toward belief.
[36:31] >> Here's Carol Bowman again. I felt so
[36:34] fortunate to be able to follow this
[36:35] amazing case as it unfolded. With each
[36:38] new discovery, Bruce and Andrea called
[36:41] me to keep me informed. I became as
[36:43] excited as they were with each new
[36:45] revelation that authenticated James
[36:47] memories. Through Bruce's investigation
[36:49] and a new connection to James Houston's
[36:51] former squadron, the family finally
[36:54] began getting answers. But what they
[36:56] discovered next was shocking. So, here's
[36:58] the backstory. Young James Lininger
[37:00] played constantly with G.I. Joe dolls.
[37:02] >> He named his three dolls Billy, Leon,
[37:06] and Walter. His parents thought they
[37:08] were unusual names for a little boy's
[37:10] toys. When they asked him why he gave
[37:13] them those names, he replied very
[37:15] matterofactly, "Because that's who met
[37:18] me when I got to heaven." Then he went
[37:21] back to playing with his toys. Bruce
[37:23] went to his computer where he had files
[37:25] with dates and details of the men from
[37:27] the NMA Bay who were killed in battle.
[37:31] There he found that there were three men
[37:33] all in the same squadron named Billy,
[37:37] Leon, and Walter who were all killed in
[37:40] 1944.
[37:42] James Houston died in 1945.
[37:45] I feel like I've read and watched every
[37:46] account of the story, and that piece
[37:48] often gets brushed over, but to me, it's
[37:50] wild that little 3-year-old James named
[37:53] his G.I. Joe dolls, three names of
[37:56] people he said met him in heaven. And
[37:58] then his father found out that the names
[38:01] matched three men from the same squadron
[38:03] in which James served who died in battle
[38:06] a year before James Houston Jr. died.
[38:09] And this story also created a major
[38:11] cognitive dissonance for me. Starting
[38:12] with if reincarnation is real, what does
[38:15] that mean about the afterlife in heaven?
[38:17] Are the two ideas even compatible? But
[38:19] if you've been with me over the last few
[38:21] seasons, we've explored many stories
[38:23] that suggest consciousness survives
[38:25] death. Whatever your interpretation, the
[38:27] evidence has repeatedly pointed toward
[38:29] the possibility that something continues
[38:31] beyond this life. So then came this
[38:33] moment where heaven and reincarnation
[38:35] don't seem to compete with one another
[38:36] at all. At least in this recollection
[38:38] from James, they appear to be part of
[38:40] the same larger story. And on this show,
[38:43] I'll never tell anyone what to believe.
[38:45] That's not what this series about. It's
[38:47] not what I'm about. But I did find
[38:48] myself wondering, you know, what if a
[38:50] merciful God or universe gives us more
[38:53] than one opportunity? Because if a life
[38:55] ends before someone ever experiences
[38:57] love or purpose or parenthood or the
[38:59] chance to be who they were meant to be,
[39:01] it just feels so unfair. And that's why
[39:03] the death of a young person can just
[39:04] feel so brutal. And in this case, James
[39:07] Houston Jr. never came home from the
[39:09] war. He never started a family. To my
[39:11] knowledge, he never fell in love. He
[39:12] never had the chance to discover who he
[39:14] was or what he might accomplish. But if
[39:16] reincarnation is real, maybe those
[39:18] experiences and opportunities aren't
[39:20] lost forever. But for now, back to our
[39:22] story. Andrea wanted to know if James
[39:24] Houston Jr. had any living relatives who
[39:27] could validate James' memories of his
[39:29] life before he was a pilot. And she
[39:31] eventually found that James Houston Jr.
[39:33] had a surviving sister, Anne Houston
[39:36] Baron, who was alive and in her 80s.
[39:39] Andrea contacted Anne and told her that
[39:42] she and her husband were writing a book
[39:44] about the NMA Bay. And I just want to
[39:46] interject a reminder here that the
[39:48] family's first contacts with most of the
[39:50] people involved started with them
[39:52] claiming they were writing a book about
[39:53] the NMA Bay. Andrea and Anne established
[39:56] a rapport on the phone and Anne sent
[39:58] Andrea her photos of her brother. One of
[40:01] the photos was of his squadron and a
[40:04] James Houston proudly stood in front of
[40:06] a corair, the type of plane young James
[40:09] told his parents he flew. The family had
[40:12] been getting really interesting
[40:13] information validating James' memories.
[40:16] And the case was becoming so evidential
[40:18] that it was top of mind for Carol when
[40:20] she was contacted by a news channel
[40:21] looking to cover a case of past life
[40:23] memory. I was in touch with a producer
[40:25] at ABC TV who wanted to document a case
[40:28] of a child's past life memory. I
[40:31] introduced her to the Liningers and by
[40:33] 2004 there was an abundance of evidence
[40:36] that this was a real case of
[40:38] reincarnation. The liningers and I were
[40:41] interviewed for the segments on ABC
[40:43] prime time. But before the piece was
[40:46] broadcast, I called Andrea to suggest
[40:48] that she revealed to Anne Baron there
[40:51] really weren't writing about the Noma
[40:53] Bay. Rather, they believed that their
[40:56] son was the reincarnation of her
[40:58] brother. I told Andrea that if Anne
[41:00] happened to see this on TV, she might
[41:02] have a heart attack. So Andrea called
[41:04] her and explained everything. Andrea
[41:07] also shared some of the comments James
[41:09] made about the Houston family, details
[41:11] that no one outside of the Houston
[41:14] family could possibly know. After the
[41:16] ABC prime time aired and the truth came
[41:18] out to the veterans of the NMA Bay that
[41:21] they were actually writing about James
[41:23] and not the boat, the Lininger family
[41:25] attended another reunion. I just have to
[41:28] jump in here. I just want to give props
[41:29] to the veterans of the NMA Bay for
[41:32] hearing this about little James and
[41:33] still extending an invite for the family
[41:36] to go to a reunion because that could
[41:38] have gone sideways. On the first day of
[41:39] the reunion, Andrea, Bruce, and James
[41:42] were walking down the hall and a man
[41:44] they hadn't seen before stopped and
[41:46] asked James, "Do you know who I am?"
[41:49] James looked at him in the eye and said,
[41:51] "You're Bob Greenwalt."
[41:54] The man looked shocked and said, "That's
[41:57] right." Andrea asked him, "Are you
[42:00] really Bob Greenwalt?" He said, "Yes."
[42:03] Later, Bruce asked James how he knew who
[42:05] the man was. James told him, "I
[42:08] recognized his voice." This is what, 50,
[42:11] 60 years later. But someone else was
[42:14] invited to this reunion as well. James
[42:16] Houston's sister, Anne Houston Baron,
[42:19] who was 85 years old when little James
[42:21] Lininger met her at the 2004 VC81
[42:25] Squadron reunion in San Antonio, Texas.
[42:27] And he goes, "It's not Ann, it's Annie.
[42:30] She wasn't my oldest sister. I had an
[42:31] older sister than that." And I said,
[42:33] "You did? Who is that?" And he goes,
[42:35] "Roof. I mean Ruth."
[42:37] >> And that was true. And here's James
[42:39] Houston's sister.
[42:40] >> Eddie is what they called me when I was
[42:42] little. knowing my name and my sister's
[42:45] name, things that my brother did when he
[42:47] was a kid. It's too amazing to describe
[42:50] how he would feel that that way, but he
[42:53] does. He considers me his sister.
[42:55] >> But despite all the things little James
[42:57] Lightinger said to her, does she
[42:59] consider him to be the reincarnated soul
[43:01] of her brother?
[43:02] >> I think it's probably a reincarnation of
[43:05] my brother.
[43:06] >> There was just no other explanation for
[43:08] how he knew all of this. She even sent
[43:11] some of her brother's belongings for
[43:13] James. One was a model of a Corsair
[43:15] airplane.
[43:16] >> Leo, James Houston Jr.'s old comrade was
[43:19] also shown some of the three-year-old's
[43:21] drawings from a plane crashing and
[43:22] burning. And Leo responded to them with
[43:25] conviction.
[43:25] >> He was right on the nose. I'm sure in my
[43:29] mind that he was there.
[43:30] >> At this point, James Lightinger's
[43:32] parents, many of the former surviving
[43:33] squadron members, and Anne Houston were
[43:36] convinced that James Houston Jr. soul or
[43:38] consciousness was back and inside the
[43:40] body of a little boy. The details were
[43:42] too specific and they bore out under
[43:44] scrutiny and that case became national
[43:46] news. But the moment maybe most
[43:48] important to this whole journey and to
[43:50] Carol Bowman's working thesis was a
[43:52] moment of healing transformation that
[43:54] finally happened when James was 8 years
[43:56] old. A Japanese production company
[43:58] wanted to fly the Liners to Japan and
[44:01] have a memorial service where James
[44:03] Houston's plane was shot down. The
[44:05] family and a film crew took a boat to
[44:07] the sight of the crash. When they
[44:09] arrived, 8-year-old James burst into
[44:12] tears. He recovered enough to throw a
[44:14] bouquet of flowers in the water, which
[44:17] Anne Baron had requested. As they threw
[44:20] the bouquet, James said, "Goodbye, James
[44:23] Houston. [music] I'll never forget you."
[44:26] Andrea said that at that point, everyone
[44:28] on the boat was crying.
[44:30] >> But did it work or did it retraumatize
[44:32] him? After the trip, James' memories
[44:34] started to fade, and his drawings of
[44:36] planes being shot down changed. Instead
[44:39] of boats firing at airplanes, he drew
[44:42] happy scenes of dolphins jumping. In one
[44:44] of his drawings, an intact plane was
[44:46] flying over a field of flowers. So, you
[44:49] think that it was good for him to go to
[44:51] the place of his death.
[44:52] >> That image said it all. James finally
[44:54] seemed to have closure on his former
[44:56] life. He was finally able to let go, and
[44:59] he no longer signed his drawings. James
[45:02] 3. It was just James.
[45:04] >> A book about the lighting girl's
[45:06] experience was written by Bruce and
[45:07] Andrea and published in 2009. It was
[45:10] called Soul Survivor. These stories have
[45:12] such power to open people's minds to
[45:15] this reality because it is a real
[45:17] phenomenon. For Carol, the James case
[45:20] was not just extraordinary. It was a
[45:21] turning point. She had helped bring a
[45:23] remarkable modern case into the
[45:25] historical record. She had become a
[45:27] trusted voice in the field. And along
[45:28] the way, she even entered the orbit of
[45:30] Dr. Dr. Ian Stevenson, the University of
[45:32] Virginia psychiatrist, who has spent
[45:34] decades investigating the claims of
[45:36] children who say they remember past
[45:38] lives.
[45:38] >> It took me 10 years to find a verifiable
[45:42] case that meant something like
[45:44] Stevenson's requirements for a
[45:46] legitimate case.
[45:47] >> Carol even helped Dr. Stevenson and his
[45:49] then assistant Dr. Jim Tucker with
[45:51] several critical cases, including
[45:53] introducing them to the James Lightinger
[45:55] case. But Stevenson did not just have
[45:57] one case like James Lightinger. He had
[45:59] shelves of them.
[46:02] Next week, we meet the researchers
[46:03] carrying on Dr. Stevenson's work and
[46:06] dive into the cases in the University of
[46:08] Virginia archives. And they have
[46:09] thousands of them.
[46:10] >> There's very little ambiguity in what
[46:12] they can say,
[46:13] >> including children who remember previous
[46:14] names, where they'd lived, how they
[46:17] died, in some cases even who had killed
[46:19] them or things that they had hidden in a
[46:21] previous life.
[46:22] >> It could manifest physically,
[46:24] biologically in numerous ways. It could
[46:26] be a language. It could be a birthark.
[46:28] could be a phobia.
[46:29] >> Some seem to remember incredible skills
[46:31] that no one in this life had taught
[46:33] them.
[46:33] >> Children being able to speak a foreign
[46:35] language that they shouldn't be able to
[46:36] speak. Purportedly a language from a
[46:39] life they had lived in a foreign
[46:41] country.
[46:42] >> At the University of Virginia, Dr. Ian
[46:44] Stevenson and his team were asking very
[46:46] different questions than Carol was. Not
[46:48] if memories can heal, but can they be
[46:50] studied and verified?
[46:52] >> Based on 60 plus years of studying a
[46:55] phenomenon, you suddenly get real data.
[46:57] What patterns emerge when you stop
[46:59] treating each story as an isolated
[47:01] mystery and start looking at the
[47:03] metadata? If Carol's work was past life
[47:05] research for families, University of
[47:07] Virginia's work is past life research
[47:09] built for the skeptics among us. It's
[47:11] mindblowing. And next week, we dive into
[47:13] their files.
[47:16] Thank you to the small team who made
[47:17] this season possible. Our amazing
[47:19] producer, Cooper Mal. Our audio mix and
[47:21] sound design was by Jeremy Cole. Music
[47:23] was by Microbino. My right hand was
[47:25] Selena Kennedy. And I'm Kai Dickens,
[47:27] your executive producer, writer, editor,
[47:29] [music] and host. And if you haven't
[47:31] listened to our last season of the
[47:32] podcast, The Consciousness Cassettes, I
[47:34] highly recommend you do so as it will
[47:36] give even more context to this season.
[47:38] And if you want to go in deeper,
[47:39] subscribe to our backstage pass by
[47:41] visiting our website. [music] With it,
[47:43] you'll unlock access to bonus content,
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[48:03] is the reincarnation records from TTT
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