Transcript
[0:04] Hello everybody. Welcome to the 10%
[0:05] Happier podcast. I'm your host Dan
[0:07] Harris. Today we're going to talk about
[0:08] a bunch of things that are of perennial
[0:11] and urgent interest to me, like how to
[0:14] be more confident, how to spend less
[0:17] time comparing yourself to other people,
[0:18] and how selectively and wisely
[0:22] to give fewer [ __ ]
[0:23] Uh my guest today is Mark Manson, author
[0:26] of several books including the
[0:28] thunderously popular The Subtle Art of
[0:31] Not Giving a [ __ ] one of the great book
[0:33] titles of all time. Fun fact, uh Mark's
[0:36] books have sold over 20 million copies,
[0:39] but he's not just a writer, he also has
[0:40] a great YouTube page where he makes
[0:42] these really high quality and very very
[0:44] interesting uh videos. And he's got a
[0:47] podcast called Solved with Mark Manson.
[0:50] Mark Manson, thanks for coming on the
[0:52] show.
[0:52] >> It's my pleasure. Thank you for having
[0:54] me.
[0:54] >> I was saying this beforehand, it's like
[0:56] this is one of perhaps the worst acts of
[0:59] podcast host malpractice I've ever
[1:01] committed that I've had [laughter] this
[1:03] show for more than 10 years and this is
[1:05] the first time you're on it.
[1:06] >> Better late than ever.
[1:07] >> Okay. I [laughter] appreciate your
[1:09] your forgiveness. All right, so let me
[1:11] let me start with The Subtle Art of Not
[1:13] Giving a [ __ ] which again is one of the
[1:15] best um book titles ever.
[1:17] >> Thank you.
[1:17] >> It it would be very easy to dismiss this
[1:21] as like a kind of nihilistic Sure.
[1:23] sentiment, but that is not at all what
[1:25] you're pointing at here. So, can you
[1:27] hold forth on what you really mean?
[1:29] >> Sure. Um I I I like to joke that The
[1:32] Subtle Art is
[1:34] it's kind of a Trojan horse for a book
[1:35] about values. Like I wanted to write a
[1:37] book about values and and people's
[1:39] prioritizations in in life and how
[1:41] important those things are, but I kind
[1:43] of felt like nobody would actually go
[1:44] buy a book about values and
[1:45] prioritization. So, the whole not give a
[1:48] [ __ ] language is just a way to like
[1:50] smuggle those
[1:52] that philosophy into kind of a fun,
[1:54] irreverent romp of a book.
[1:57] Um but really at at its core, if you
[1:59] start reading the book chapter one, one
[2:01] of the first things I point out is that
[2:03] there actually is no such thing as not
[2:04] giving a [ __ ] You have to care about
[2:06] something. And even if you attempt to
[2:08] care about nothing, that in and of
[2:10] itself is caring about something. Right?
[2:13] So it's we're kind of stuck in this like
[2:16] cosmic loop of of having to direct our
[2:19] our attention and focus on on something
[2:22] in our environment, no matter where we
[2:24] are or what the situation is. So then
[2:26] the question becomes what is worth
[2:28] giving a [ __ ] about? And that is the
[2:31] question that
[2:33] A is I think perennially
[2:36] difficult and complicated. We all
[2:38] struggle with it. But I think also
[2:41] unique to our modern times, say the
[2:44] post-internet age or the post-social
[2:45] media age,
[2:48] I think it it has become extremely
[2:49] complicated to figure out what should we
[2:52] give a [ __ ] about. What is actually
[2:54] worth our time and attention and what is
[2:56] not. It I I think this is probably
[2:59] the most difficult time to figure that
[3:01] out
[3:02] in human history.
[3:03] >> So the subtle art
[3:05] >> Yes.
[3:06] >> is to know what is worth not giving a
[3:09] [ __ ] about so that you can focus on the
[3:11] things that are.
[3:13] >> Correct.
[3:14] >> Um and how like just for yourself
[3:17] >> Mhm.
[3:17] >> you're extremely busy uh member of Homo
[3:20] sapiens. Like so how how do you decide
[3:24] what's worth focusing on and what's not?
[3:27] >> So the chief heuristic that I I describe
[3:30] in the book is is to not focus so much
[3:34] on the benefits that you want in your
[3:36] life because that that's kind of our
[3:37] default approach to everything in our
[3:38] life, right? It's like what good feeling
[3:41] thing do I want? Do I want to make more
[3:43] money? Do I want to have more friends?
[3:45] Do I want to be more popular? Do I uh
[3:48] you know, want to fix up the house? Like
[3:50] what's the positive goal? And instead I
[3:52] I ask people to focus on actually the
[3:55] problems and struggles
[3:57] that they were are willing to have and
[3:59] that they are actually
[4:01] secretly kind of enjoy having.
[4:03] >> Hm.
[4:04] >> Because everything in life involves a
[4:06] trade-off, right? It's easy to want to
[4:08] be popular. It's easy to want to make
[4:09] more money.
[4:11] We all want those things. But the
[4:13] question is, what are we willing to give
[4:15] up for those things? Like that is
[4:17] actually the question that determines
[4:19] what our values are and who we are as
[4:22] individuals. It's almost this like
[4:24] negative
[4:26] way into the question of what is worth
[4:29] caring about. It's like well what what
[4:31] is worth sacrificing for? What am I
[4:32] willing to be disliked for? You know,
[4:34] people ask me all the time, how do I
[4:35] stop caring what other people think? And
[4:37] my answer my first answer is is always,
[4:39] well what are you willing to be disliked
[4:40] for? And if you And if you can't answer
[4:42] that question easily,
[4:44] then that's a problem.
[4:46] >> Arthur Brooks, the great writer and I
[4:49] think
[4:50] most recently of Harvard's Kennedy
[4:52] School, his little question is what
[4:54] would you die for?
[4:55] >> Right.
[4:56] >> And it's very clarifying.
[4:57] >> Yeah.
[4:59] It yeah and it's a
[5:00] very short list for for most people and
[5:02] and I think it's I think it's the sort
[5:04] of thing that we all have to dig very
[5:06] deep and think think very deeply about
[5:09] um to even find an answer to that.
[5:11] >> What's on your list?
[5:12] >> I mean my wife is the first thing that
[5:14] comes to mind. I'm I'm the things I'm
[5:15] waffling on are are some some of the the
[5:17] other associations. Do I have any
[5:19] beliefs I would die for? I'm like that
[5:22] that I would have to sit with for a long
[5:23] time.
[5:24] >> Hm.
[5:25] Hm.
[5:25] >> I mean I'd like to say yes, but you
[5:27] know, it would it would feel very heroic
[5:29] to say yes, but
[5:30] >> Are there beliefs that you're willing to
[5:32] be disliked for?
[5:33] >> Oh yeah. I already am.
[5:35] >> [laughter]
[5:35] >> Say more.
[5:37] >> [gasps]
[5:37] >> I mean like you, you know, I'm I'm I'm
[5:40] recording podcasts, I'm in videos every
[5:42] week, I'm posting stuff online all the
[5:43] time. So it it's you know, you know, it
[5:45] it part of our job description is uh
[5:49] haters. So you and I are in are in a
[5:51] position in that just through the act of
[5:54] our work, we are forced to think about
[5:56] what we're willing to be disliked for.
[5:58] Like what stance we're willing to take
[5:59] or what beliefs are important enough to
[6:01] us to deal with, you know, the comment
[6:03] section. That is kind of a clarifying
[6:05] filter, but I think if if people, you
[6:08] you know, going about their day-to-day
[6:09] life, it's probably not something they
[6:10] think about very often.
[6:11] >> Are there
[6:13] things that you know you shouldn't give
[6:16] a [ __ ] about, but you do anyway, and
[6:19] it's therefore a struggle for you?
[6:20] >> Yeah, I I think, you know, all of kind
[6:23] of the superficial, materialistic things
[6:27] I struggle with at times. I think as
[6:29] everybody does. I generally think I'm on
[6:31] the right side of of deep prioritizing
[6:33] them, but
[6:35] I I do think sometimes I I I have a
[6:37] tendency to be a workaholic, and I have
[6:40] a tendency I'm very competitive. So,
[6:42] like when I have a goal or some sort of
[6:44] metric I'm trying to hit, I get
[6:46] extremely
[6:48] wrapped up in it. Mhm. Sometimes to the
[6:50] point where it where it backfires a
[6:52] little bit.
[6:52] >> What did it do to your brain to have a
[6:55] book that was that successful? I mean, I
[6:57] know you there's this stat that you've
[6:59] sold more than 20 million
[7:01] >> Mhm.
[7:01] >> copies. I would imagine 19.5 of those
[7:05] millions were of The Subtle Art.
[7:09] >> Yeah. I think the human mind is is
[7:11] really primed for kind of a slow,
[7:14] compounding growth over time. Like what
[7:17] whether you're adopting a new skill or
[7:20] becoming more confident, you know,
[7:22] starting a new career.
[7:23] I think the mind is kind of just
[7:25] default setting is that everything
[7:28] should get like 5 to 10% better every
[7:30] single year.
[7:30] >> Mhm.
[7:31] >> And and then when something comes along
[7:33] and it gets 10,000% better
[7:37] within 6 months,
[7:39] like something in your brain just kind
[7:40] of breaks. And I I I really struggled
[7:44] with like for a while I struggled with
[7:46] the feeling of like
[7:47] is this just luck? Like do I deserve
[7:50] this? So, there was this weird period of
[7:53] like imposter syndrome, I guess I would
[7:55] say, of of just like, okay, yeah, this
[7:57] you know,
[7:58] I did a good thing, but it's like
[8:00] I don't think I deserve all this.
[8:02] >> You know of this concept hedonic
[8:04] adaptation?
[8:05] >> Yes.
[8:06] >> Where we something good, new, and good
[8:08] happens in our life and we're super
[8:10] excited about it for
[8:12] 45 seconds and then we just bake it into
[8:15] our baseline expectations.
[8:17] >> Right.
[8:17] >> And if you experience a career dip or
[8:21] some project you're working on isn't
[8:22] going as well as you thought like
[8:24] how do you handle that especially in
[8:26] light of what you went through?
[8:28] >> It was interesting. So I did a follow-up
[8:30] book called Everything Is [ __ ] A Book
[8:31] About Hope and and the whole process of
[8:34] doing that book it it was one of the
[8:36] hardest projects I think I've ever done
[8:38] in my life and and most of that is
[8:40] because the whole time I was doing it
[8:44] I knew it was going to feel like a
[8:46] failure no matter what happened.
[8:48] >> [laughter]
[8:48] >> I mean it debuted number one on the
[8:50] Times list and then it quickly fell off
[8:52] and I was like, well, it fell off after,
[8:54] you know, six weeks so like
[8:56] it failed which is absurd. It's like
[8:59] completely this is this is like such a
[9:01] champagne problem.
[9:03] But it coming back to just the the
[9:05] brutal reality of the hedonic treadmill,
[9:08] you can objectively know that it's not
[9:10] true but it still feels that way.
[9:12] >> You put your finger on something I think
[9:13] that we all struggle with aside from the
[9:15] hedonic treadmill
[9:17] which is expectations.
[9:19] >> Yeah.
[9:19] >> And yeah, like if it it it expectations
[9:24] can [ __ ] up everything.
[9:25] >> Yeah.
[9:26] Yeah.
[9:27] And it's
[9:28] I think the same concept can be applied
[9:31] to people's daily lives. Like for
[9:32] example
[9:34] I've observed a number of couples like
[9:37] friends in my in my life that they're
[9:39] struggling through through the
[9:40] relationship so they decide to get
[9:42] married and that and then the marriage
[9:43] is this huge peak experience
[9:46] and they think that's going to fix it,
[9:47] right? But then it just sets the
[9:49] expectations at this new level.
[9:51] And so they're even more disappointed
[9:53] afterwards and then they're like, well,
[9:54] maybe we should
[9:55] buy a house together. That'll fix it,
[9:57] right? And then it's the they go like
[9:59] take out this huge mortgage and buy a
[10:00] house and it's like for three months
[10:02] they're ecstatic and everything's
[10:04] amazing and they're decorating together.
[10:06] And then that becomes normal and then
[10:08] the disappointment hits again and it's
[10:10] even more painful that time. And then
[10:11] they're like, "Well, maybe we should
[10:12] have a kid." And then it's, you know,
[10:14] it's like, "Oh boy, here we go with
[10:16] that." And it's a game that our brain
[10:18] plays with us
[10:19] consistently of like, "If I just have X,
[10:23] then I'll be happy. If I just have Y,
[10:25] then I'll be happy." I I think there's a
[10:27] very fundamental
[10:30] evolutionary reason for it. It It's It's
[10:32] what's kept our species striving and
[10:35] propagating for so long.
[10:37] But this is why I come back to that
[10:38] heuristic of like, "Okay,
[10:40] it's easy for us all to like think of
[10:43] the thing that's we think is going to
[10:44] make us happy, but what are you willing
[10:46] to struggle for? What is the sacrifice
[10:48] you're willing to have in your life?
[10:51] Because that is actually the more
[10:52] accurate metric of what you should be
[10:55] doing."
[10:57] >> One of the most potent and persistent
[10:58] sources of suffering in my life is this
[11:01] constant or seemingly constant toppling
[11:04] forward into the next moment. Nothing
[11:06] that's happening right now quite does it
[11:08] for me. And so I'm just kind of reaching
[11:10] for that next thing over and over as my
[11:12] long-time meditation teacher Joseph
[11:14] Goldstein likes to ask people, "How many
[11:17] slices of pizza have you eaten? How many
[11:18] parties have you attended? How many
[11:20] promotions have you received? And are
[11:21] you done?" Of course not. We are
[11:23] insatiable. And in this way, the pursuit
[11:26] of happiness can become the source of
[11:28] our unhappiness.
[11:30] The good news is that another of my
[11:32] favorite meditation teachers, Vinny
[11:34] Ferraro, a fan favorite in the 10%
[11:37] Happier cinematic universe, has just
[11:39] created a whole new batch of guided
[11:41] meditations
[11:42] to help you deal with this sense of
[11:44] insufficiency and get to what he calls
[11:47] enoughness. And these meditations are
[11:50] available over on my app, 10% with Dan
[11:52] Harris. And Vinny will be dropping them
[11:55] throughout the month of November. And on
[11:57] Tuesdays throughout the month of
[11:58] November, Vinny will be meditating with
[12:01] subscribers live and taking your
[12:03] questions. It's a a Vinny Ferraro
[12:05] festival in the month of November over
[12:07] on 10% with Dan Harris. Just to recap
[12:09] here, Vinny's new meditations drop every
[12:12] week in the month of November and you
[12:14] can join him live only in the 10% with
[12:17] Dan Harris app.
[12:19] This brings us to something I wanted to
[12:22] talk to you about before I
[12:25] say what that is, I want to set it up by
[12:27] mentioning
[12:28] or repeating what I mentioned in the
[12:30] intro which is that you have a podcast
[12:32] called Solved with Mark Manson and the
[12:35] conceit which is really funny is that
[12:38] instead of doing what I do which is I do
[12:41] I probably over the 10 years of this
[12:43] show have done 40 episodes on every
[12:46] problem you can think of. You do one
[12:48] episode is super long and you solve the
[12:51] problem
[12:52] >> [laughter]
[12:52] >> allegedly in
[12:54] yes
[12:54] >> problem
[12:55] >> in in the episode and you've done one
[12:58] recently on social comparison.
[12:59] >> Mhm.
[13:00] >> And one of the things you mentioned
[13:02] which I thought was really cool at the
[13:04] top of the episode is that you learned
[13:08] that your podcast was not doing the
[13:11] numbers you thought was reaching the
[13:13] audience you thought it was reaching and
[13:15] then you started looking around at all
[13:16] these other schmoes who have podcasts
[13:18] and comparing yourselves to them. So
[13:20] before we talk about what you learned as
[13:22] an antidote to social comparison, can
[13:24] you tell that story?
[13:26] >> Yeah, so we we the the whole concept
[13:28] behind Solved is is that we we take one
[13:31] topic, we go super deep
[13:33] full research team spends four to six
[13:36] weeks researching it. My producer and I
[13:40] we spend
[13:41] two days prepping and then a full day
[13:43] shooting it. Most episodes come out
[13:45] around four or five hours
[13:47] and the goal is is that it's like it is
[13:49] the last podcast you should ever have to
[13:51] listen to on this topic. It's like
[13:53] everything's in there. Every
[13:54] perspective, every piece of research,
[13:56] every historical anecdote or
[13:58] or you know
[14:00] wisdom tradition it will it will at
[14:02] least touch up upon it. So the funny
[14:04] thing is is when we launch we had a
[14:07] incredibly strong launch last last year
[14:09] and the first three or four episodes
[14:11] amazingly well. We hit all sorts of
[14:13] charts and Spotify was really kind to us
[14:15] and kind of give us a push on their
[14:17] platform and
[14:18] um we had a we had a couple clips go
[14:20] viral. So it was like everything seemed
[14:22] amazing and then
[14:24] and then I think it was like maybe three
[14:27] or four months in
[14:28] Spotify like
[14:30] pushed an update to their platform
[14:32] saying that
[14:33] basically saying, "Oh, sorry guys. It
[14:35] turns out we were counting some things
[14:37] wrong." And then that new update came
[14:39] online and it turned out that like a
[14:41] third of the people were listening that
[14:43] we thought were.
[14:44] >> [laughter]
[14:44] >> And so it was I remember coming into the
[14:47] office and my producer was just sitting
[14:49] there staring at the computer screen
[14:50] with this like dead dead face on.
[14:53] >> [laughter]
[14:54] [gasps]
[14:54] >> Just like absolutely miserable and he
[14:56] was just like
[14:58] "Why are we doing this?
[15:00] This is horrible."
[15:01] But it I mean it comes back to the
[15:03] hedonic treadmill thing. But that was
[15:04] our intro to the social comparison
[15:06] episode. To to remind everybody that we
[15:08] are not immune of these things as well.
[15:10] Like these are and this is something
[15:12] that I like to hit on on on my show and
[15:14] and and we've already
[15:16] shared here. But it's like
[15:19] I don't think any of this stuff actually
[15:21] like the irony of the name solved is
[15:22] that none of this stuff actually gets
[15:24] solved. Like you never solve social
[15:26] comparison.
[15:28] You just get better at it. You never
[15:30] solve your confidence issues. You just
[15:32] get better at it. You learn how to
[15:34] manage it over time.
[15:35] >> This is why I like the the the title 10%
[15:38] Happier. It's just like marginal
[15:41] improvement over time. But so what did
[15:43] you learn about why social comparison is
[15:46] such a nagging problem for humans?
[15:49] >> It is very much a baked in part of our
[15:52] hardware. So if you look at
[15:55] just the way that we evolved over
[15:57] millions of years, we evolved in small
[15:59] bands and tribes.
[16:01] And really status comparison served a
[16:05] very very important social function but
[16:08] also like a function of survival. Right?
[16:10] Like if if you and I are in a a
[16:13] prehistoric tribe together, it's
[16:16] important for us to know who is the best
[16:19] hunter, who is the best fisherman, who
[16:21] is the best at
[16:23] organizing and rallying all the
[16:26] the tribe to like fight against the
[16:27] neighboring tribe who's trying to take
[16:29] all of our resources. Like these are all
[16:30] life and death things. So if you were
[16:32] extremely good at something that
[16:34] promotes the tribe's survival,
[16:36] you deserve that status
[16:38] and you deserve special treatment and
[16:40] you deserve to be looked up to cuz it's
[16:42] just it helps everybody survive in in
[16:45] that environment. The flip side of that
[16:46] is that we all have these kind of
[16:49] uh
[16:50] researchers call them sociometers. So
[16:52] these these like uh these almost like
[16:55] gauges inside of our heads where we are
[16:57] constantly subconsciously evaluating our
[17:01] status compared to the people around us.
[17:03] >> Mhm.
[17:04] >> And what's fascinating is that it is
[17:07] completely contextual and relative. So
[17:10] if you take somebody and there's plenty
[17:12] of research on this, if you take
[17:14] somebody who say is making a million
[17:15] dollars a year and they live in a
[17:16] neighborhood where everybody else is
[17:19] making a hundred thousand dollars a
[17:20] year, uh they're going to feel really
[17:22] good about themselves. And if you take
[17:25] that person who's making a million
[17:26] dollars a year and then you you put them
[17:27] in a neighborhood where they live around
[17:29] people who are making ten million
[17:30] dollars a year, they're going to feel
[17:32] really crummy about themselves.
[17:34] And this happens in
[17:35] to all of us all the time. We're in one
[17:39] room where we are really competent, we
[17:41] feel really good about our skills, we
[17:43] have tons of relationships, and we feel
[17:47] really good about our status among the
[17:49] people around us. And then we go to a
[17:51] completely different room in another
[17:52] side of town where we have no idea what
[17:54] we're doing, we have no skill set, we
[17:56] have no relationships, and what do we
[17:58] feel? Insecurity, self-doubt, we kind of
[18:01] want to shrink, we want to like, you
[18:03] know, back up into the corner, become a
[18:05] wallflower. This is all instinctual. We
[18:07] all have it. It's very natural. It
[18:10] evolved within us to promote survival
[18:13] and replication.
[18:14] And it's not something you ever get rid
[18:16] of and it's also something you don't
[18:18] want to get rid of because it is
[18:19] important to to know what you're good at
[18:22] compared to others and what you're not
[18:24] so good at compared to others. Like that
[18:25] is a useful thing to know. Where the
[18:27] problem starts is the self-judgment
[18:30] and the judgment of others around very
[18:33] arbitrary status metrics. That's where
[18:36] we all get into trouble.
[18:37] >> The old comparison is the thief of joy
[18:40] thing. That you
[18:43] Yeah, you can just as you said, you can
[18:45] be making the same income, but depending
[18:47] on which neighborhood you live in, all
[18:49] of a sudden you're enjoying that income
[18:52] way less or way more.
[18:54] Um and it's a great way to just kind of
[18:56] [ __ ] your life if you can't appreciate
[18:59] what you have because you're measuring
[19:02] it against somebody else.
[19:03] >> Yeah. One of the things you say that I
[19:05] thought was really interesting is a
[19:07] common complaint right now is that
[19:10] social comparison has been put on
[19:11] steroids by social media.
[19:13] >> Mhm.
[19:14] >> It is true. I think you and I would both
[19:16] agree is true. But you make the subtle
[19:19] to be a little cute point that the for
[19:21] you page, in other words, the
[19:24] the move from the version of social
[19:27] media where we're following our friends
[19:29] and seeing a curated version of our
[19:31] friends' lives to
[19:33] um a more entertainment-based social
[19:36] media where we're scrolling and the
[19:37] algorithm is just feeding us stuff it
[19:40] knows it it'll that we will like has
[19:43] actually taken some of the sting out of
[19:45] that.
[19:45] >> It has. I think it's replaced it with a
[19:47] different problem. An interesting thing
[19:49] happened with social media about 5 years
[19:51] ago. It was innovated by TikTok. So the
[19:53] TikTok's big innovation was
[19:55] it didn't just show you people you
[19:57] followed, it showed you any piece of
[19:58] content it thought you would enjoy. And
[20:02] and that turned out to be extremely
[20:03] effective. People spent way more time on
[20:05] TikTok than other platforms. So the
[20:07] other platforms adopted it. So now
[20:09] social media is less uh social and it's
[20:11] more media. It's more just imagine
[20:15] a TV, like when we were young, we would
[20:18] sit at home after school and flip TV
[20:20] channels kind of mindlessly until we
[20:22] found something that caught our
[20:23] attention. Now it's a TV that flips the
[20:26] channels for us. It's like, this is what
[20:28] you're going to like next and this is
[20:29] what you're going to like next and this
[20:30] is what you're going to like next.
[20:32] So, the benefit of that is that you kind
[20:34] of do remove a lot of that
[20:36] you know, that that highlight reel,
[20:39] seeing everybody's life,
[20:41] their highlight reels and and and making
[20:43] the false assumption that that's their
[20:45] day-to-day life.
[20:46] A lot of that gets removed, but
[20:48] what the the new problem that creates is
[20:51] that everybody kind of lives in inside
[20:53] their own epistemic bubble. Like,
[20:54] everybody's information diet just
[20:56] becomes extremely siloed.
[20:58] And you can have two people who are
[21:01] good friends in the real world, but like
[21:03] they believe completely different things
[21:06] because the information in the the media
[21:08] that they've been consuming is like
[21:11] just
[21:12] completely different like has no
[21:14] relation to each other.
[21:16] The other thing I'll say, like kind of
[21:18] coming back to the point that social
[21:19] comparison isn't something you get rid
[21:20] of.
[21:22] And it is actually something that is
[21:23] useful. The point I like to make a lot,
[21:26] which is lost on most people, is that
[21:29] there is such a thing as good social
[21:31] comparison, right? Like, so if you think
[21:33] about role models you've had in your
[21:35] life, that is a form of social
[21:36] comparison. If you think about a hero
[21:38] you've had or like somebody who's really
[21:40] inspired you to do something great,
[21:42] that's a form of social comparison. Um
[21:45] if you think about a a a family member,
[21:47] a mentor who's like taught you things,
[21:49] that's a form of social comparison,
[21:51] right? It's not that we should stop
[21:53] comparing ourselves to others, it's we
[21:55] should find good reasons to compare
[21:58] ourselves to good people.
[22:00] And where people that where people
[22:02] suffer is they are usually comparing
[22:04] themselves to
[22:06] people that are not worth comparing
[22:08] themselves to and they're comparing
[22:09] themselves for bad reasons, for very
[22:11] superficial unimportant reasons.
[22:14] >> Like money or fame.
[22:15] >> Totally.
[22:17] >> Now we're going to come back to a a
[22:18] refrain in this show and in your work. I
[22:21] believe you said in the episode that
[22:24] really for you one of the things that
[22:26] cuts through noxious social comparison
[22:29] is remembering what you care about, what
[22:32] you're about. Values, again.
[22:34] >> Right. Right.
[22:35] >> Say more about how that works.
[22:36] >> Well, it it comes back to that line, if
[22:39] you're not aware of what you're willing
[22:41] to be disliked for,
[22:43] then you're you're going to kind of just
[22:45] default to whatever you think
[22:48] is going to make you liked by the most
[22:49] people. And the stuff that's going to
[22:51] make you liked by the most people
[22:53] is generally the most superficial
[22:55] emptiest things, right? Money,
[22:58] materialistic things, beauty,
[23:01] wealth, whatever. When you find
[23:03] something that you're willing to be
[23:04] disliked for, then it allows you to let
[23:06] go of those more superficial
[23:08] comparisons. Because again, those
[23:10] superficial comparisons, they're always
[23:11] there. There's never going to be a point
[23:12] in your life where you stop completely
[23:14] caring about money or stop completely
[23:17] caring about your appearance or whether
[23:19] people think you're attractive or not.
[23:22] What changes is that you find things
[23:24] that are more important. And once you
[23:26] find the more important things, it's
[23:27] like the volume knob on those other
[23:29] comparisons just gets turned way, way
[23:31] down.
[23:31] >> Yeah, there's a quote and I don't know
[23:33] if it's from you or from somebody who
[23:35] you were quoting in the episode, but the
[23:36] best way to stop worrying about what
[23:38] other people think of you is to have
[23:39] something more important than what other
[23:41] people think of you.
[23:42] >> Yes.
[23:43] Yes.
[23:44] And that that ultimately is a question
[23:46] of values.
[23:47] >> What do you recommend to people in terms
[23:49] of figuring out what your values are?
[23:53] >> So, I think there's a few ways to
[23:54] approach it. Part of the problem is that
[23:57] a lot of us
[23:58] we spend our whole life kind of just
[24:00] defaulting to what we think the people
[24:02] around us will like. There's never an
[24:04] opening for us to learn anything about
[24:06] ourselves. So, like quite literally, we
[24:07] don't know ourselves. Because everything
[24:10] we've cared about has just been a proxy
[24:12] because other people care about.
[24:13] >> Right.
[24:14] >> So, I think the the first thing is to
[24:16] give yourself that space, whether it's
[24:18] time or a specific hobby or setting
[24:22] aside, you know, a trip for yourself
[24:25] to like just go explore things that you
[24:27] like to do for no other reason than you
[24:30] like to do them.
[24:31] And figure out what you care about when
[24:33] absent of any sort of pressure or
[24:36] stimulation from the outside world. And
[24:38] I think once you create that space, what
[24:41] you start to notice is that there are
[24:43] certain curiosities or certain desires
[24:45] that start to show up naturally on their
[24:47] own again and again. Certain
[24:50] preferences, certain priorities. And I
[24:52] think those are the things that that you
[24:53] then have to make an effort to pursue
[24:56] consciously.
[24:58] And the the funny thing about values, we
[25:00] talked about this in our values episode,
[25:01] is that it's not like you find one thing
[25:04] you care about and then that's
[25:06] that's it. You're set. You're like,
[25:08] "Awesome. Nailed it. Got it figured
[25:10] out." It's values they're they're kind
[25:12] of always in this tension with one
[25:14] another, right? Like they're because
[25:16] there's trade-offs between everything in
[25:17] life. Like in in in your time is always
[25:20] scarce and your attention is scarce. So,
[25:21] like, you know, spending more time with
[25:24] your family is always going to come at a
[25:25] cost of spending time doing something
[25:27] else. And spending more time at work is
[25:28] going to come at a cost of, you know,
[25:30] social life and family and, you know,
[25:32] physical health or whatever. So, the
[25:33] more you prioritize any one thing,
[25:35] you're you are like
[25:37] by definition deprioritizing other
[25:39] things. And so, I think
[25:41] when you create that space and you
[25:43] eliminate certain things from your life
[25:45] as an experiment, you you kind of learn
[25:48] what you actually really miss and and
[25:50] what you don't miss at all.
[25:52] >> So, you we've been using the word
[25:54] values.
[25:55] >> Mhm.
[25:56] >> You also did an episode on purpose.
[25:58] >> Yes.
[25:58] >> And and those strike me as
[26:01] if not synonymous, very very similar.
[26:04] >> They're related. So, I think purpose
[26:07] there's more of an action element to it.
[26:09] The best way I I I like to describe it
[26:11] is that purpose is a sense that your
[26:13] time was spent well.
[26:15] >> Mhm.
[26:16] >> Right? So, when people say, "I want to
[26:17] find my purpose." or "I want to feel
[26:18] more purpose in my life." Like, what
[26:20] does that actually mean?
[26:22] Like, what is having more purpose in
[26:23] your life?
[26:25] I think it is the sense that you have
[26:27] spent your time well and that time is
[26:29] spent well based on what you care about,
[26:31] what you prioritize. Like if you're
[26:33] spending all your time doing stuff that
[26:34] doesn't matter to you, then you're going
[26:36] to feel like your your life has very
[26:37] little purpose. Uh whereas if you spend
[26:39] your time doing something that does feel
[26:40] very meaningful and valuable to you,
[26:42] then
[26:43] you're going to feel a great sense of
[26:45] purpose. Right? So you could you could
[26:47] come to see what your values are,
[26:49] but
[26:50] not actually figure out what your
[26:52] purpose is or live in your purpose.
[26:55] >> Right.
[26:55] >> So then and and that delta would create
[26:57] a lot of unhappiness.
[26:58] >> Yes. Purpose is kind of what happens
[27:00] when your values make contact with the
[27:02] real world.
[27:03] >> Got it. Got it. And if memory serves,
[27:05] what you recommended in that
[27:08] um in that episode
[27:11] in terms of figuring out what your
[27:12] purpose is
[27:13] is similar to what you recommended just
[27:15] now in terms of figuring out what your
[27:16] values are, giving yourself space to run
[27:19] experiments and to tap into your own
[27:22] innate curiosity about like what turns
[27:25] you on.
[27:26] >> Yeah.
[27:27] Yeah, and it's it's with purpose that's
[27:29] really interesting.
[27:31] So one part of it is
[27:33] that there's something that you feel
[27:35] like you are uniquely positioned or
[27:38] capable of doing that most other people
[27:40] are not. There's something specific
[27:42] about
[27:43] your skills, your experience, your
[27:44] talents, your situation that most other
[27:47] people don't have. And then finding
[27:50] where that can contribute to something
[27:52] that is valuable and meaningful
[27:54] for other people. Like that's if you can
[27:57] find that Venn diagram, you can find
[27:59] where to point your talents and and
[28:02] specific experiences and history towards
[28:04] something that is useful and meaningful
[28:06] for for others, like purpose naturally
[28:09] emerges as a result.
[28:11] >> One of the
[28:12] practical
[28:13] techniques that you recommended for
[28:15] figuring out your purpose is to do a
[28:17] time audit.
[28:18] >> Mhm. Yeah.
[28:19] >> What is that?
[28:20] >> So a time audit
[28:22] is to
[28:23] at the end of a day, take like a week,
[28:26] and at the end of each day sit down for
[28:28] like 10 20 minutes and actually
[28:31] uh
[28:32] map in
[28:33] how you spent
[28:35] each hour of that day. Like what you
[28:37] were actually doing. Not not what you
[28:38] were supposed to be doing, but like what
[28:41] you were actually doing. You know, we we
[28:43] all know you were at work for 8 hours,
[28:45] but like you know,
[28:47] were you browsing Instagram? Were you
[28:50] texting with your friend? Were you Did
[28:52] you take a 2-hour lunch? Like actually
[28:54] color in what you spent the time doing?
[28:58] And then go through and and
[29:01] rate
[29:02] from 1 to 10 how how meaningful that
[29:05] activity felt to you. What ends up
[29:07] emerging is that you find that there's
[29:09] probably one or two things that are not
[29:11] very meaningful to you that are eating
[29:13] up a lot more time than you expected.
[29:14] And then the things that are meaningful
[29:16] to you, you're like, "Wow, I barely
[29:17] spent any time this week doing that." I
[29:19] think that would be a powerful
[29:21] >> source of data. No question.
[29:24] The holiday season is officially here.
[29:27] And if you work in health care or you
[29:29] know somebody who does, you know it's
[29:30] the most wonderful time of the year,
[29:32] sure, but it's also for sure the
[29:33] busiest.
[29:34] It's also the perfect time to give them
[29:36] or yourself what they really want this
[29:38] year. And that's something ridiculously
[29:40] soft and stylish and comfortable, FIGS
[29:43] scrubs. FIGS just launched their all new
[29:45] holiday collection featuring tons of new
[29:48] styles and accessories in festive shades
[29:50] that will bring all that holly jolly
[29:52] merriness to their shift. Some of my
[29:55] friends in the medical field wear FIGS
[29:57] and uh say they are the best scrubs
[30:00] they've ever worn. Feeling great in your
[30:01] clothes is so important for setting up a
[30:03] good foundation for your day. From scrub
[30:05] wear to outerwear to accessories and
[30:07] beyond, FIGS has a little something for
[30:09] gifting every awesome human on your
[30:11] list, including yourself. So, if you're
[30:13] in health care or shopping for somebody
[30:15] who is, be sure to check out FIGS. You
[30:18] can get 15% off your first order at
[30:20] wearfigs.com with the code FIGS RX.
[30:23] That's wearfigs.com, code FIGS RX.
[30:29] I've mentioned before that I have an
[30:30] 11-year-old son who's obsessed with
[30:32] sports cards. And he and I were talking
[30:34] the other day about the fact that this
[30:35] hobby has been a great way for him to
[30:38] learn about the value of money
[30:41] because he saves up to buy the cards he
[30:43] wants. He also is developing a keen eye
[30:47] for which cards are good investments and
[30:49] might increase in value over time. For
[30:52] all parents out there with teenagers, we
[30:54] know you're already trying to keep a
[30:55] million things under control. And given
[30:57] how important it is to teach your
[30:58] children about the value of money, I'm
[31:00] very happy that Cash App is a sponsor of
[31:02] this show. Cash App is here to make sure
[31:05] your teens money and their spending is
[31:07] not adding to that craziness. It's never
[31:09] too early for your kids to start saving.
[31:11] Small steps today can build strong
[31:13] habits tomorrow. Cash App is now
[31:14] offering teens interest on savings so
[31:16] they can grow money faster, all under
[31:19] your guidance. You can sponsor your teen
[31:21] on Cash App to set them up today.
[31:22] There's no hidden or monthly fees and no
[31:25] minimum account balances. Teens can
[31:27] start with as little as a dollar and
[31:28] grow from there without paying anything
[31:30] extra. You can also manage everything
[31:32] directly from your own Cash App account
[31:34] without having to switch between the
[31:35] two, making it simple to stay connected
[31:37] to your teens financial activity in a
[31:39] way that's both efficient and
[31:41] empowering.
[31:42] Download Cash App today and sponsor your
[31:44] team. Visit our link in the show notes.
[31:48] >> [music]
[31:49] >> Everybody's talking about AI agents
[31:51] these days and on this show we generally
[31:53] resist the hype, but here's a version of
[31:55] an AI agent that really does make sense
[31:58] to me. It's an agent built around one
[32:00] specific job in your business, done the
[32:03] way you would actually do it, like
[32:04] answering the same five questions every
[32:07] new client asks or sorting incoming
[32:09] requests and sending them to the right
[32:11] person. Today's sponsor, Base 44, lets
[32:14] you build exactly that. Base 44 is an AI
[32:16] platform where you describe what you
[32:18] need in your own words, like what it
[32:20] should know, who it should talk to, what
[32:22] should happen next, and then you get a
[32:24] working build. That could be a client
[32:26] portal or some sort of internal tool or
[32:29] an AI agent that you want to build from
[32:31] scratch or all of them working together
[32:32] in one place. The database login, back
[32:35] end, and hosting are all already handled
[32:37] and it's not a demo, it's the real thing
[32:38] and it's yours to use, change, and keep
[32:41] building as the work changes. I have
[32:42] spent a decent amount of time talking to
[32:45] Basecamp 4's AI, and it is quite
[32:47] responsive and simple to use even for a
[32:49] dummy like me. Go to
[32:51] basecamp4.com/happier
[32:52] and sign up through our link to get 30%
[32:54] off the builder plan for your first
[32:56] year. That's basecamp4.com/happier.
[33:02] There's one more solved episode I want
[33:04] to ask you about, and then I want to ask
[33:06] you about this big new project you've
[33:07] launched.
[33:08] >> Okay.
[33:08] >> Um the final solved episode I want to
[33:11] ask you about is confidence.
[33:12] >> Mhm.
[33:12] >> I'm very curious to get to the
[33:14] punchline, like how do you get more
[33:16] confidence? But let me start with a
[33:17] definitional question, like what is
[33:18] confidence, and how is it different
[33:21] from, say, self-esteem?
[33:23] >> I love this episode because it is
[33:27] I I just I have like a soft spot in my
[33:29] heart for contrarian takes, and um
[33:32] it's interesting going into each solved
[33:35] episode because
[33:36] occasionally we find that, okay, yeah,
[33:38] the conventional wisdom is kind of dead
[33:40] on, and it's a lot of the advice is what
[33:43] you would expect. Sometimes you find
[33:44] that there's like a lot of nuance, and
[33:46] you know, it depends. That's usually the
[33:48] case. And then every once in a while
[33:51] you dig really deep into something, and
[33:52] you're like, "Oh,
[33:54] this people should not really care about
[33:57] this."
[33:57] >> [laughter]
[34:00] >> This is the wrong question, and
[34:01] confidence is one of those.
[34:03] >> Really?
[34:03] >> It is.
[34:04] >> shouldn't care about being confident.
[34:05] >> the wrong question.
[34:07] >> Interesting.
[34:07] >> It is the wrong question. And
[34:08] interestingly, one of the things that we
[34:10] uncovered when we did the episode is
[34:12] that for most of human history,
[34:14] confidence was actually a pejorative
[34:16] term.
[34:16] >> Oh.
[34:17] >> So, for example, the term con man
[34:20] >> Uh
[34:20] >> comes from the term confidence man,
[34:22] which
[34:23] people used to use as an insult. It was
[34:25] it was essentially
[34:27] um the the word that was used in the
[34:30] 18th and 19th century for somebody who
[34:31] was a fraud or a scamster.
[34:33] They were confidence men. It only
[34:35] switched in the mid-20th century, and
[34:37] and a lot of it traced back to Norman
[34:39] Vincent Peale, but Um
[34:41] >> The the guy who wrote The Power of
[34:42] Positive Thinking.
[34:43] >> Yes. Yes.
[34:44] >> Uh, who happened to be Trump's personal
[34:45] pastor.
[34:46] >> Yes, which explains a lot.
[34:48] >> Yes, it does.
[34:49] >> [laughter]
[34:51] [gasps]
[34:51] >> So, confidence, it is the way Peel
[34:54] described it is he said that basically
[34:56] he said you need to feel good about what
[34:58] you're about to do in order to do it
[35:00] well.
[35:01] And I think this
[35:03] this assumption suits our intuition
[35:05] >> Mhm.
[35:06] >> quite a bit, right? Because if you think
[35:07] about all the things that make you
[35:09] anxious or all the things that you're
[35:12] insecure about
[35:13] you don't want to do them and so you
[35:15] imagine that if I just felt better about
[35:17] it, I would be able to do it.
[35:20] Well, by the 1970s and 1980s, they found
[35:22] pretty consistently that no, actually
[35:24] that's not the case at all. Like,
[35:26] >> [gasps]
[35:26] >> making you feel good about doing
[35:28] something
[35:29] uh doesn't actually make you perform any
[35:31] better.
[35:32] Um, and in many cases it just kind of
[35:33] deludes you into thinking you did a good
[35:35] job even though you didn't. The way
[35:37] confidence actually works, confidence is
[35:39] not the input of good action, it is the
[35:42] output of good action. Confidence is
[35:45] built and accumulated by building
[35:47] evidence that you are capable of
[35:48] handling something. So, it's the more
[35:50] you speak in front of
[35:53] uh a group of people
[35:55] the more confident you become that
[35:57] you're able to speak in front of a group
[35:59] of people because you have accumulated a
[36:00] lot of evidence that you're able to do
[36:02] it. Now, obviously this does not solve
[36:04] the problem of people who are like super
[36:06] anxious and freaking out before doing
[36:08] something.
[36:09] And so
[36:10] the conclusion of of the episode is that
[36:12] it's not confidence that people actually
[36:14] need, it's courage.
[36:16] >> Mhm.
[36:17] >> And courage, it turns out, is it's a
[36:19] completely different thing to develop.
[36:22] And it requires
[36:25] a progressive desensitization
[36:28] a a practice of
[36:31] um being able to confront difficult
[36:33] things,
[36:34] um being able to manage failure well um
[36:38] being able to get back up after a
[36:40] setback. Like, these are all kind of
[36:42] mental muscles that we have to to build
[36:44] and and practice. And once we build that
[36:47] courage muscle, confidence just starts
[36:49] happening as a as a side effect of being
[36:53] able to successfully do the actions we
[36:55] want to do.
[36:56] >> So, we should build courage and an
[36:58] emergent property will be confidence.
[37:01] >> Correct.
[37:02] >> It reminds me of I think it was John
[37:04] Wayne who said,
[37:06] "Courage is being afraid, but saddling
[37:08] up anyway."
[37:09] >> Yeah.
[37:10] Yeah. And I talked about I I I'm
[37:12] extremely
[37:14] extremely anxious person, and I have a
[37:16] son who's quite anxious, and we talk
[37:18] about this a lot, which is you know,
[37:20] courage is being afraid and doing it
[37:22] anyway, and and um but you that doesn't
[37:25] mean
[37:26] going you said selective and systematic
[37:29] desensitization. So, it's like going in
[37:32] a stepwise manner to build
[37:36] the courage, thereby the confidence, to
[37:40] do things over time.
[37:41] >> Yes. So, in the the episode, so this was
[37:45] primarily discovered by a famous
[37:47] psychologist named Bandura, and he did a
[37:49] series of experiments at Stanford
[37:52] where he took people who were incredibly
[37:55] afraid of snakes, like intense snake
[37:57] phobias.
[37:59] And he brought them into uh a room with
[38:03] a a window into another room, and the
[38:05] the other room was full of snakes. And
[38:07] of course, they freaked out, they
[38:09] screamed, they wanted to leave, all this
[38:10] stuff.
[38:12] He kept them there until they were
[38:13] finally kind of calmed down, and they
[38:15] were comfortable at least being in the
[38:16] next room.
[38:18] Okay.
[38:20] Next step, open the door.
[38:23] All the people, they start freaking out.
[38:25] They're like, "Oh my god, close the
[38:26] door. I can't handle it. It's too much.
[38:28] Blah blah blah blah blah."
[38:30] A few minutes go by, they calm down,
[38:33] they realize it's okay.
[38:35] Next step, why don't you step into the
[38:37] next room? Of course, panic, freak out,
[38:40] on and on it goes.
[38:41] Long story short, within a single day,
[38:44] it took like 8 or 10 hours, but within a
[38:46] single day, he got each of these people
[38:49] with snake phobias to actually hold
[38:52] snakes.
[38:54] And
[38:55] interestingly, afterwards,
[38:59] he followed up with them six or eight
[39:00] weeks later
[39:02] and and asked them how they felt and
[39:04] whether they were still as afraid of
[39:05] snakes or not and
[39:07] they were still a little afraid, but
[39:08] definitely much less afraid. But a lot
[39:10] of them started reporting all these
[39:12] other kind of side benefits in their
[39:13] lives. They realized that like actually
[39:16] they were speaking up more at work and
[39:18] they were you know, taking more
[39:21] accountability
[39:22] in fights with their partner and and
[39:25] able to like have difficult
[39:26] conversations a little bit better. And
[39:28] so what Bandura noticed is that there
[39:30] was something about competence,
[39:33] developing competence,
[39:35] that gave people the evidence I can do
[39:39] hard things. I can handle difficult
[39:41] situations. I can
[39:44] I can bounce back from being under
[39:46] pressure. And that that doesn't it
[39:49] starts being domain specific, but then
[39:50] it bleeds into the other areas of your
[39:53] life.
[39:53] >> buy that. It seems at least related to
[39:56] the concept of having a growth mindset
[39:58] like that you are capable of change and
[40:01] fact looked at through a Buddhist lens,
[40:03] you are constituted
[40:05] by change. Like you are nothing but a
[40:07] process. It also reminds me of the fact
[40:10] that the in if you look at all of the
[40:12] the research into habit change,
[40:14] >> Mhm.
[40:15] >> the number one advice is always start
[40:17] small because what you want to do is put
[40:19] some wins on the board and then you
[40:21] start to gain confidence. You start to
[40:24] and and and probably more importantly,
[40:26] you should you start to develop
[40:28] a new identity. I'm the type of person
[40:31] who exercises even if it's a run around
[40:33] the block. I'm the type of person who
[40:35] meditates even if it's only 1 minute of
[40:37] meditation. Yeah, all of these thing
[40:39] this building of courage and competence
[40:43] seems like I think your point is let's
[40:46] aim for that and the confidence will
[40:48] come as a consequence, but if you aim
[40:50] for confidence, it's uh kind of starting
[40:53] at the wrong end.
[40:54] >> Yes, and you can get yourself into a lot
[40:56] of trouble. So, you asked about
[40:57] self-esteem earlier, and part of the
[41:00] offshoot of kind of
[41:01] Peale's assumption was the self-esteem
[41:04] movement in the '60s and '70s. And the
[41:06] self-esteem movement was built off the
[41:08] idea that if we just make people feel
[41:10] really good about themselves, they will
[41:12] do good things. And this emerged from
[41:15] they did a bunch of research, they found
[41:16] that generally
[41:18] students who performed better in school
[41:20] tended to feel really good about
[41:21] themselves. Uh
[41:23] ki- people who are more successful
[41:24] professionally, they felt really good
[41:26] about themselves, you know, on and on
[41:28] and on. They looked at all these
[41:28] different measurements. And and people
[41:31] generally had a very positive
[41:32] self-image. The problem is is that they
[41:34] were missing the cause and effect there.
[41:35] Like the it it turns out in hindsight
[41:39] the student that did extremely well and
[41:41] went to Harvard, they felt good about
[41:43] themselves because they did extremely
[41:44] well and went to Harvard. [laughter]
[41:46] It's not the feeling good about
[41:47] themselves that that that caused it, it
[41:49] was the effect. And the the thing that
[41:51] kind of blew this up
[41:53] uh in the '90s, uh psychologist by the
[41:56] name of Roy Baumeister um was actually
[41:59] tasked to do kind of a large
[42:00] meta-analysis of self-esteem research
[42:02] because I mean the self-esteem
[42:04] research and and and practices it was
[42:07] instituted into our education policy.
[42:09] >> gets a trophy.
[42:10] >> Yes, exactly. Like it in the in the '80s
[42:12] '70s and '80s it was like education
[42:15] systems were actively teaching the
[42:17] teachers how to give their students
[42:19] self-esteem.
[42:20] >> It's your generation, you're a
[42:21] millennial. I'm a Gen X. We were we
[42:23] were, you know, I went to a camp where
[42:25] they literally taught us how to box as a
[42:27] way to deal [laughter] with our
[42:28] conflicts. Unlike the the with the
[42:31] millennials that would never fly, okay?
[42:34] >> I definitely got it, yeah.
[42:34] >> You you got it, okay.
[42:36] >> So, Baumeister he started he kind of
[42:38] took all the data and ran a bunch of
[42:41] research himself
[42:42] and came back and he he said
[42:46] yeah, turns out there's nothing there.
[42:47] Not only does it turn out that there's
[42:49] nothing there, but it turns out that
[42:50] there's potentially a lot of negative
[42:52] side effects of having a high
[42:53] self-esteem.
[42:54] >> Narcissism.
[42:54] >> Exactly. So, for example, he went to
[42:57] maximum security prisons and started
[42:59] measuring the self-esteem of violent
[43:02] criminals
[43:03] and it turned out the more violent the
[43:05] criminal, the higher the self-esteem.
[43:07] >> Yes.
[43:07] >> You know, and in the episode, uh, my
[43:10] producer and I, we spent a lot of time
[43:11] kind of digging into kind of the
[43:13] psychological biases and and, um,
[43:16] all the ways that we we kind of
[43:17] misattribute our own skill and and our
[43:20] own abilities to to explain why why
[43:23] pursuing confidence can can get you in
[43:25] the trouble, but, you know, the short
[43:27] version is that
[43:28] we just don't really have an accurate
[43:31] view of ourselves most of the time. And
[43:33] and so, the only way to have an accurate
[43:35] view of yourself is to actually go do
[43:37] the thing and see what happens. And so,
[43:40] that's why the only healthy version of
[43:41] confidence is
[43:43] is the end product of the action, not
[43:45] not the input of it.
[43:47] >> Well said. Very helpful, actually.
[43:50] We all want to stay healthy for as long
[43:51] as possible. With Aura,
[43:53] getting started is effortless. Aura Ring
[43:56] measures more than 50 health metrics,
[43:58] including your sleep, movement, stress,
[44:00] and heart health all from your finger.
[44:02] The Aura app shows you how it's all
[44:04] connected and what to do next. The more
[44:06] you can understand your body, the better
[44:08] you can live in it. Wear your best life
[44:11] with Aura.
[44:17] We talk a lot on this show about the
[44:18] value of connection and these days, so
[44:20] much human connection runs through
[44:22] screens. And that gets complicated when
[44:25] you're the parent of a kid who just
[44:27] wants to talk to their friend. Today's
[44:29] sponsor is Tin Can. Tin Can is the new
[44:31] school way for kids to speak with their
[44:33] friends. It's a secure landline,
[44:36] remember those? Uh, that lets, uh, your
[44:38] kid call all of their favorite people,
[44:40] but with parental controls to keep them
[44:42] protected. And there are no screens, no
[44:44] algorithms, no texting, it's just a
[44:46] phone being a phone. This is one of
[44:48] these cool instances when we actually
[44:50] purchased in the Harris household the
[44:53] product before, uh, the company became a
[44:55] sponsor of this show. So, we have Tin
[44:57] Can set up in our son's room. My wife
[44:59] did that. It's a very, very cool idea to
[45:02] get kids using an old-school landline
[45:04] instead of going through a screen. Go to
[45:07] tincan.com/happier
[45:09] to get $10 off your first order,
[45:10] exclusive for my listeners. That's
[45:12] tincan.com/happier
[45:14] for $10 off. And when you use our link,
[45:16] you're supporting our show.
[45:17] tincan.com/happier.
[45:22] Okay, before I let you go, before I lose
[45:23] you, I want to ask you about you've got
[45:25] a big new um
[45:28] project. I did not mention this in the
[45:31] intro because, as I told you before we
[45:33] started rolling, there are some pretty
[45:35] negative feelings about AI these days.
[45:38] >> Yes.
[45:38] >> It's weird because a lot of people are
[45:40] using it even though they say they hate
[45:41] it. Um and I'll I'll just be open before
[45:44] anybody starts to get mad at me. I have
[45:47] all of your same concerns about AI, but
[45:49] I do I do use it.
[45:50] >> Right.
[45:51] >> You have launched Is it to call it a
[45:53] chatbot, is that accurate?
[45:55] >> Yeah, I mean, we call it an AI mentor,
[45:57] but
[45:57] >> Okay.
[45:57] >> it it the the main there is other
[45:59] functionality, but the main
[46:00] functionality is chat.
[46:01] >> And it's it's called Purpose AI.
[46:03] >> Yes.
[46:04] >> And the
[46:06] cool thing about Purpose AI is it's not
[46:08] sycophantic. It actually
[46:11] talks to you the way a good friend would
[46:12] talk to you, which is it will tell you
[46:14] the truth without being a dick about it.
[46:16] >> Yes. Correct.
[46:17] >> Um so, just say more about the project.
[46:19] >> So, I'll I'll I'll kind of talk about
[46:21] where it came from and and make my case
[46:24] to maybe the more skeptical listeners.
[46:26] The the first thing
[46:28] you know, when ChatGPT came out,
[46:29] everybody was using it. I started to
[46:31] become very surprised and startled by
[46:33] how many people in my personal life were
[46:35] telling me that they were going to
[46:37] ChatGPT with deep personal issues.
[46:40] >> Yeah. I do it.
[46:41] >> Yeah. And kind of using it as like like
[46:43] a therapist or a coach.
[46:44] >> Yes.
[46:45] >> And so, I went and I I tried it out. And
[46:48] sure enough, like there's a lot of it
[46:50] gives you it can give you a lot of great
[46:51] information. It can also make some stuff
[46:53] up.
[46:53] >> A million percent.
[46:54] >> And it also kisses your ass.
[46:56] >> Yes.
[46:57] >> Right? So, it's
[46:58] >> Yes. Yeah. I kind of like that part a
[47:00] little bit.
[47:00] >> I mean, yeah, yeah. [laughter]
[47:01] Hey,
[47:02] we all need it sometimes.
[47:05] >> [gasps]
[47:05] >> But, it's I mean, it's to the point like
[47:07] I joke around with my co-founder that
[47:09] it's like you you could you could rob a
[47:11] bank and and be in a high-speed police
[47:14] chase and ask ChatGPT, "How do I get
[47:16] away from the police?" And ChatGPT would
[47:18] be like, "Wow, you're so brave."
[47:19] >> Yeah.
[47:20] >> [laughter]
[47:21] >> That must be really hard for you.
[47:23] >> Although, it does have all of this
[47:24] language and it doesn't it it's it's
[47:27] trying not to get sued a lot. Like, if I
[47:29] ask it certain questions, it's always
[47:31] like talk to your doctor or etc. etc.
[47:33] >> Because they have been sued a lot. But,
[47:36] fair enough. [laughter]
[47:37] So, I I started to observe this and um
[47:41] and one one of the things that I have
[47:42] been keenly aware of being in this
[47:45] industry for almost 20 years now is that
[47:47] there is a a shocking lack of
[47:51] uh accessibility to good life advice, to
[47:53] good mental health care, to good
[47:55] coaching and mentoring.
[47:57] Um
[47:58] there there's some pretty harrowing
[47:59] statistics around this that for every I
[48:02] believe it's for every therapist or
[48:04] counselor
[48:06] who's working, there are 48 people who
[48:09] want access to a therapist or counselor,
[48:11] but don't don't either don't have access
[48:13] to one or don't have the the means to
[48:16] afford one.
[48:17] So, that it's a market that the demand
[48:20] vastly outstrips the supply.
[48:23] So, this this idea I mean, you see it in
[48:25] a few places that um
[48:28] that AI is going to put doctors and
[48:30] therapists and um and coaches out of
[48:33] business. I I think there's absolutely
[48:35] no way because first of all, there's
[48:38] just not enough doctors and coaches and
[48:40] therapists and counselors in the world
[48:42] for for all the people who need one.
[48:44] So, that that's point number one. And
[48:46] then point number two is
[48:48] another
[48:49] tension or struggle that I've felt for a
[48:51] long time in this industry is is that
[48:53] generally
[48:55] the things that work best don't scale
[48:57] very well and the things that scale
[48:58] really well
[49:00] don't work the best, right? So, you and
[49:02] I have both written books.
[49:04] Um you and I both do podcasts. They're
[49:06] great, right? They're very helpful. I've
[49:08] I've read a lot of books that are
[49:09] helpful. I've listened to a lot of
[49:10] podcasts that are helpful, but you know,
[49:12] they move the needle a little. Like it's
[49:14] it's very rare that, you know, something
[49:17] uh
[49:18] a podcast episode is going to take you
[49:19] from zero to 10 on an issue in your
[49:21] life.
[49:22] Um whereas if you do sit down and spend
[49:24] a lot of time with a a really good coach
[49:27] or counselor or whoever it is,
[49:29] within a few months, you can move the
[49:31] needle a lot. But that doesn't scale.
[49:33] And and it's not to mention it's hard to
[49:36] find someone who's really a good fit for
[49:39] you and and all that. So, I started to
[49:41] see the opportunity of how AI could
[49:44] supplement the
[49:46] the overwhelming demand in the market
[49:48] and give access to people who normally
[49:51] wouldn't have access to to good advice.
[49:54] There is research on AI-driven life
[49:56] advice. Um it is net positive. It is
[50:00] good by and large.
[50:02] Um it is not as good as a a good
[50:04] therapist or a good coach, but it is
[50:06] still good and it does have a positive
[50:08] effect.
[50:09] Um and we've already seen from our users
[50:11] that it's had a a drastic positive
[50:13] effect on people's lives and the fact
[50:15] that it's it's always there. It's always
[50:17] available. You know, you wake up at 2:00
[50:19] a.m. freaking out about something. You
[50:20] can't You can't call your therapist,
[50:22] right? So, but you can talk to an AI and
[50:25] it's going to be
[50:27] awake. It's going to
[50:29] have the exact same quality of answer it
[50:30] would at 2:00 p.m. Um it's not going to
[50:33] judge you. It's not going to scold you
[50:35] for, you know, losing sleep. It's So, I
[50:38] I do think there is a role that it can
[50:40] play in in this industry.
[50:43] And I am excited for the potential of
[50:44] it. Okay, so that's that that's my
[50:46] defense. I rest my case.
[50:48] >> I I I
[50:48] >> [laughter]
[50:49] >> I'm I'm I'm not the one I'm not the one
[50:52] who's skeptical. I'm I'm just channeling
[50:54] those who are skeptical in the audience.
[50:55] There is one thing I'm skeptical about
[50:57] though and it's it's more from a
[50:58] business perspective. Okay.
[51:01] Uh
[51:02] why would I download Purpose AI rather
[51:07] than just keep my subscription to to
[51:11] Claude or ChatGPT and just advise it to
[51:16] not be sycophantic?
[51:17] >> A couple reasons. One, I mean
[51:19] they have gotten better. The the main
[51:22] models, they have gotten less
[51:23] sycophantic over time.
[51:25] I'd say the biggest thing that we do
[51:27] that um is is different than what they
[51:30] do. I mean, first of all, our our
[51:32] our product is specifically catered for
[51:34] this use case. So, all the prompting,
[51:37] all the systems, the databases,
[51:39] everything is like specifically designed
[51:40] for this. The other thing that we do is
[51:42] that when you sign up
[51:45] you're taken through an onboarding
[51:46] process, and what that onboarding
[51:47] process is doing is that it is doing a
[51:49] personality assessment and getting an
[51:51] understanding of of of who you are at
[51:55] like at a psychological level. Um we we
[51:58] get your top three values, and we give
[52:01] you the Schwartz values evaluation. Um
[52:04] and so we pull your top three values,
[52:05] and then we give you a big five
[52:07] assessment, so we get your big five
[52:08] personality, and um we have like an
[52:11] attachment quiz, so we can figure out
[52:12] your attachment type. With that, all of
[52:15] those things kind of fed into the model,
[52:19] it will know how to give you
[52:20] personalized advice based on you know,
[52:22] combining that with your unique
[52:24] situation, it can give you much more
[52:26] personalized advice
[52:28] um that is actually credible towards who
[52:30] you are psychographically than say
[52:33] um
[52:33] you know, just a a generic model that
[52:36] you know, you asked for help with your
[52:37] groceries and what the weather's going
[52:39] to be tomorrow and all that.
[52:40] >> Final question, we do this little
[52:42] segment, it's called uh what's good?
[52:45] I'm curious, like is there a book,
[52:47] movie, little life hack, um
[52:50] anything that you would recommend that's
[52:52] uh
[52:53] top of mind for you?
[52:54] >> It's funny that we were just talking
[52:55] about AI. One of my favorite things to
[52:58] do recently, my wife and I we went
[53:00] online when we found I think it was the
[53:02] New York Times list of 100 greatest
[53:04] films ever.
[53:05] >> Yes. Yes.
[53:06] >> And we just marked down
[53:08] all of all the films that at least one
[53:11] of us had not seen. And so we have this
[53:12] list of like 50 movies.
[53:14] We watch one or two a week. But so
[53:17] here's the hack. Watch something, you
[53:19] know, like we watched David Lynch's
[53:21] Mulholland Drive recently. Total mind
[53:23] [ __ ] Like great movie, but also you get
[53:26] to the end and you're like what did I
[53:28] just watch?
[53:29] >> [laughter]
[53:31] [gasps]
[53:31] >> Like what happened?
[53:33] Here's my favorite thing. Go on Claude
[53:36] or ChatGPT and prompt it and say, "You
[53:38] are an expert movie critic. I want you
[53:41] to give me a full
[53:43] analysis of Mulholland Drive. Give me
[53:46] the backstory. How how did it go into
[53:48] production? What was David Lynch's
[53:50] creative process? What were the
[53:53] interesting things that happened during
[53:54] production? What was the critical
[53:56] reception at the time? How is it aged?
[53:59] >> I love it.
[53:59] >> What's the cultural impact it's had?
[54:01] >> Yes.
[54:02] >> And it gives you
[54:04] the best 10-20 page report. It is so
[54:08] fascinating. You learn so many like
[54:11] interesting tidbits and like creative
[54:13] decisions that happened and total
[54:15] accidents that happened on set that were
[54:17] left in the movie that ended up being
[54:19] brilliant. And and it
[54:21] it's just created like such a fun
[54:24] intellectual experience for my wife and
[54:26] I. It's it's like one of our favorite
[54:28] things to do on the weekend.
[54:29] >> That's so great. I love it. And funny
[54:30] it's funny because what my my
[54:33] my what's good is actually quite
[54:35] similar. I actually was looking through
[54:37] the New York Times list of 100 best
[54:40] films of the 21st century the other day
[54:42] and listing the ones I've been giving my
[54:44] son a cinematic education.
[54:46] >> Nice.
[54:46] >> He's almost 12 and rejects almost
[54:48] everything I say, but has actually been
[54:50] very open to this. And his he's like
[54:53] Daddy, like what's the next movie we
[54:54] should see? So I was I was harvesting
[54:56] from that list movies that I think he
[54:59] could watch. Um
[55:02] but anyway, one of the one of the movies
[55:03] we watched recently that I'm going to
[55:04] recommend now that it wasn't on that
[55:06] list is um we we've been on a space jag.
[55:10] We saw um Project Hail Mary a couple
[55:13] months ago when it came out and he was
[55:15] turning he kept turning to me during the
[55:16] movie he's like, "Daddy, this is the
[55:18] best movie ever, right? This is
[55:20] [laughter] this is amazing." And uh so
[55:22] we went and watched um like Interstellar
[55:25] and all these other space movies.
[55:28] Uh some of them good, some of them bad.
[55:29] One we watched recently that I kind of
[55:31] had a positive memory of but it forgot
[55:34] how good it is.
[55:35] >> Mhm.
[55:35] >> Um and maybe it's because the star is so
[55:38] controversial and easy to dismiss.
[55:40] There's a Tom Cruise movie called Edge
[55:42] of Tomorrow. Have you ever seen it?
[55:44] >> Yeah.
[55:44] >> Oh, I did like I think back when it came
[55:46] out.
[55:47] >> It's like 10 years old.
[55:48] >> Yeah.
[55:48] >> And it's about it's basically the best
[55:51] version It's not explicitly a video game
[55:54] movie.
[55:55] >> Mhm.
[55:56] >> But it's kind of the best version of the
[55:58] spirit of a video game taken into a
[56:00] movie because it's about this guy who
[56:03] dies and gets a new life every time and
[56:05] like starts over in the game.
[56:06] >> Yeah.
[56:07] >> And um it's extremely well done. And I'm
[56:11] not I have a lot of mixed feelings about
[56:13] Tom Cruise.
[56:14] >> [laughter]
[56:14] >> I covered Scientology when I was a
[56:16] reporter and so like yeah had a lot of
[56:19] interactions with the church. And um but
[56:22] he's great in the movie, Emily Blunt's
[56:24] great in the movie and um my son loved
[56:27] it. So if you're looking for a space
[56:29] movie,
[56:30] Edge of Tomorrow.
[56:31] >> Nice.
[56:32] >> This has been a total pleasure. Like I
[56:34] said, can't I [ __ ] believe it's taken
[56:37] this long to have you on the show. I
[56:38] mean but I'm better late than ever and
[56:41] it's so cool to meet you. So thank you
[56:43] for your time. And I just want to remind
[56:45] everybody before I let you go of all the
[56:47] stuff that you're doing that people
[56:48] should check out. His first book was
[56:50] called The Subtle Art of Not Giving a
[56:52] [ __ ] He's got uh a YouTube channel
[56:54] where he makes all sorts of cool videos.
[56:56] On that YouTube channel and on any
[56:58] podcast platform you can get his podcast
[57:01] which is called Solved with Mark Manson.
[57:03] And if you don't hate hate AI, uh he's
[57:06] got uh Purpose AI
[57:08] uh available in any app store.
[57:11] How to do?
[57:12] >> Then I list everything.
[57:13] >> Amazing. Thank you. All right. Mark
[57:14] Manson, thank you.
[57:16] Thank you very much for watching and or
[57:19] listening today. Really appreciate it.
[57:20] If you want to hook me up, and I know
[57:22] what podcast hosts ask for this all the
[57:24] time, but there's a reason why we ask
[57:25] for it because it's genuinely helpful.
[57:28] If you want to hook me and my team up,
[57:30] follow us and like us and rate us and
[57:33] review us on whatever platform you're
[57:35] consuming the show right now. Share with
[57:37] your friends. Follow us on social media.
[57:39] It all genuinely helps us grow. Now on
[57:42] to the credits.
[57:43] Thank you so much to everybody who
[57:45] worked so hard to make this show. 10%
[57:47] Happier is produced by Tara Anderson,
[57:49] Marissa Schneiderman, DJ Cashmere, David
[57:52] Hart, and Hayden Broom. Post-production
[57:55] is handled by the great folks over at
[57:56] Greenhorn Creative. And Nick Thorburn of
[57:59] the great indie rock band Islands wrote
[58:01] our theme. Thank you for listening.
[58:03] Deuces.