Transcript
[0:08] So good afternoon Lumpur.
[0:10] >> Good afternoon Jico.
[0:13] >> Uh so thank you for uh this opportunity
[0:16] to ask you a few more questions. Uh I
[0:19] thought um since many of the monastics
[0:21] are studying vineya uh being the vasa I
[0:26] thought uh if you could share a few
[0:27] things about um your relationship uh
[0:30] with the vineia uh in recalling your
[0:34] inclination towards a teacher and the
[0:36] training as a monk after your year as a
[0:38] novice. Can you share some reflections
[0:41] on how the vineia supported your
[0:42] awakening? How did the ethical structure
[0:45] support your deepening insight into open
[0:47] aware consciousness?
[0:52] >> Well, being a devout Buddhist,
[0:56] the Buddha,
[0:58] he said he leaves us when asked about
[1:01] when he passed away, what what would be
[1:04] left and they say our teacher be the
[1:07] Buddha said you have the dharma and the
[1:10] vine.
[1:12] So
[1:14] Vineia was
[1:17] where Dhamma was my main interest.
[1:21] I realized being alone for a whole year
[1:24] as a sin era.
[1:27] I could see my reflecting on my
[1:31] behavior, my tendencies
[1:34] uh and memories of the past that I
[1:38] needed
[1:41] training of some sort that I was too
[1:44] impulsive, too manipulative as a
[1:47] personality.
[1:49] And so I thought I need a teacher who
[1:53] will
[1:55] give me guidelines for behavior
[1:58] that I can't manipulate that I just have
[2:01] to conform to
[2:04] because I spent several years at
[2:07] University of California in Berkeley and
[2:10] it was it was follow your heart and do
[2:12] what you want kind of philosophy
[2:16] and my insights at the seminary era were
[2:20] such that
[2:23] I
[2:26] it was a kind of inspiring
[2:29] way to think. But in terms of results,
[2:32] just following doing what I
[2:36] wanted and without reference to anything
[2:39] else was never really satisfied. I was
[2:44] began to
[2:47] just take advantage of that and uh
[2:50] because the Buddha said I leave you the
[2:53] Dharma and the Va
[2:56] without your teacher. I thought why why
[3:00] you establish something totally free
[3:03] like Dharma and something so controlled
[3:06] as VIA.
[3:08] So I began
[3:11] studying the vinaya
[3:14] and uh
[3:17] I was in this
[3:19] forest monastery in in Noonai province
[3:23] where I met a monk who was a disciple of
[3:26] a janja
[3:28] who informed me about
[3:31] inorn
[3:33] which was quite far away from nonkai.
[3:35] Right.
[3:37] [clears throat]
[3:38] And I never heard of Raj or he was not
[3:42] famous then.
[3:45] So this monk was very strict. you know
[3:47] he wore these kind of brown
[3:51] robes and would go on bindabot wouldn't
[3:55] accept money
[3:57] and
[3:59] uh you know he's kind of living example
[4:04] of good vinaya
[4:06] so I thought this maybe
[4:11] I'll ordain aiku in guy and then go
[4:16] spend my first years with John Chai
[4:19] Newborn.
[4:22] So I did that. My child was very
[4:25] pleased with the idea of me. He he
[4:27] didn't know John Chai personally, but
[4:30] he's heard of him. So he thought that
[4:33] would be good training for me.
[4:37] And so I went with this monk
[4:40] Ajang Sai
[4:43] who uh took me to meet
[4:48] and
[4:51] there
[4:52] there was so much emphasis on Vini.
[4:57] All the precepts were respect then and
[5:01] and um
[5:03] at first I
[5:06] you know I I decided just to conform
[5:09] without any kind of resistance which I
[5:13] had never done in my life. So
[5:17] I was prepared for the the kind of
[5:21] strict midnight training I received the
[5:25] first few years at Wat
[5:29] and
[5:31] I began to appreciate it you know
[5:33] because in some ways you're living in a
[5:35] community of monks
[5:39] who uh
[5:42] keeping the same rules about
[5:46] action and speech
[5:50] and then on personal level he didn't if
[5:53] we just left to our personalities we
[5:56] wouldn't live together
[5:59] as some monks you know the personal
[6:03] preference some monks I liked some monks
[6:05] I didn't like so if it was just about me
[6:10] personally liking this one and not
[6:12] liking that one I That would not make a
[6:16] sa.
[6:18] It would be just a
[6:21] uh you know people doing what they want
[6:24] without any sense of
[6:29] connection with like the kara idea
[6:33] because
[6:35] all the monks I trained with want we
[6:38] tried to live under the same strict
[6:41] interpretation of the eye.
[6:44] which uh created a sense of harmony like
[6:50] SA harmony
[6:52] and the sense of kara sense of we're all
[6:57] trying to to do the best we can and
[7:00] support each other in our practice
[7:03] dharma practice
[7:06] though
[7:08] even though I didn't see a lot of the
[7:11] rules of the 227 seven party mocha
[7:15] training rules.
[7:17] You know, there are some of them that
[7:18] made no sense to me. And I was learning
[7:22] Thai
[7:26] and
[7:29] and the Thai lessons on Rei were all in
[7:33] Thai
[7:35] which I couldn't understand. And they'd
[7:38] read these rules every morning
[7:41] as morning puja
[7:43] and half the monks would fall asleep
[7:45] because it was really boring.
[7:52] And so
[7:54] but still in spite of my own critical
[7:58] mind
[8:00] finding fault with that I began to
[8:03] appreciate I started becoming very
[8:06] strict and critical of monks who didn't
[8:09] seem to live up to the high standard.
[8:12] So I be because of the self-awareness I
[8:16] became aware of my own critical mind
[8:19] grasping these venile rules and then
[8:23] judging
[8:26] other monks by my interpretation
[8:31] and I was probably a pain in the neck.
[8:35] [laughter]
[8:44] But Ajantra had a very good sense of
[8:48] humor.
[8:50] And so
[8:52] finally they started translating Binia
[8:56] into English and like in Bangkok at
[8:59] World War One and and so there were
[9:02] available books translations of the
[9:06] traditional Vinaya
[9:08] from poly from Thai to English
[9:13] and that helped a lot to
[9:17] me I memorized the party rules. And
[9:21] I didn't think I could ever do anything
[9:24] like that. When I first heard the monks
[9:28] recite the mocha 227
[9:32] precepts in Pali, I thought, "Wow, I
[9:36] could never ever do that."
[9:40] But then I found out there's a lot more
[9:41] I could do that I didn't know I could
[9:44] do.
[9:48] And uh
[9:53] the rules also
[9:55] are they rules or precepts?
[9:59] rules are kind of heavy where precepts
[10:03] are more it seems as training rules like
[10:07] their train advice for training
[10:12] that and so
[10:14] I remember going on tudong with one of
[10:17] the senior monks Bajan
[10:22] and he was extremely strict and we were
[10:28] walking in uh southern Thailand
[10:32] as a tudong walking trip and we really
[10:37] thirsty and they had to be careful what
[10:40] you drink and so the villagers
[10:44] offered coconut water. So I thought,
[10:47] well, it's water. But this monk I was
[10:50] with said, no, no, it's
[10:55] the the rule is you can't have juice
[10:58] from a fruit that's bigger than your
[11:01] closed fist.
[11:06] And I thought coconut water is not
[11:10] really coconut juice.
[11:13] But
[11:18] the precision of you know suddenly even
[11:21] coconut water which was you know you
[11:24] didn't have to boil or anything. It's
[11:26] quite pure
[11:28] was forbidden.
[11:31] And I can see anger arising and
[11:34] criticism about fussiness. And
[11:40] but by that time I was very clear in my
[11:43] practice of watching being aware of what
[11:46] I was thinking.
[11:49] So I wasn't just blindly conforming but
[11:52] also watching the the
[11:58] irritation that limits on action and
[12:02] speech created in me.
[12:08] So I learned a lot and I began to
[12:12] appreciate this the sense of sa harmony
[12:16] that I felt at Wapa home
[12:19] that you know these
[12:23] all these monks areas the nuns the
[12:27] machines
[12:29] all had the same
[12:32] preceptual
[12:34] conditioning
[12:36] and uh and there was a sense of inner
[12:40] harmony and I didn't wasn't aware of
[12:44] disharmony in the song.
[12:52] Anything else? Well, I think what you
[12:55] were pointed to is quite quite inspiring
[12:57] and important that the the conventions
[13:00] of the the vignia helps to support
[13:03] communal harmony, but you were using it
[13:05] in a very reflective way to see in
[13:07] different ways that you would create
[13:09] suffering uh in your own mind.
[13:13] Yeah, you I could watch myself grumble
[13:18] about
[13:20] some of the interpretations of the rules
[13:24] of the precepts
[13:26] and because I have a very critical mind
[13:28] is conditioned by education. So I, you
[13:33] know, I felt I could see myself
[13:35] grumbling
[13:37] and I asked myself, if you keep
[13:40] grumbling, you're going to be a grumpy
[13:44] old monk.
[13:50] And I didn't like myself grumbling, you
[13:53] know, I made myself miserable for tiny
[13:57] little things that just irritated me.
[14:01] And uh
[14:05] when I came to England in 1977,
[14:09] I'm determined
[14:12] to not grumble.
[14:17] I made a strong determination.
[14:19] wouldn't grumble about
[14:22] the weather, about anything in England
[14:26] that there was because English people
[14:29] grumble a lot and so
[14:32] >> I made a determination not to join that,
[14:35] not to reinforce that habit.
[14:39] So people ask me about England about
[14:42] living in England and most of my
[14:45] memories
[14:49] the whole you know I've lived in England
[14:51] about
[14:53] 35 years or so and
[14:57] [clears throat]
[14:58] 40 years at least 40 years and uh
[15:06] experienced all kinds of ups and downs
[15:10] and sa life and successes and failures
[15:14] and
[15:16] good times and bad times.
[15:22] But uh
[15:25] because I made this determination not to
[15:28] grumble,
[15:30] I didn't
[15:31] create a lot of suffering around the
[15:35] situations that arise
[15:38] around SA life,
[15:41] monastic life.
[15:57] So like right action and right speech
[16:01] in terms of vit
[16:05] speech is
[16:08] right speech is something
[16:11] uh you know quite important because you
[16:15] hear on the news media these days all
[16:18] kinds of bad speak.
[16:23] >> It was like being in the Navy again.
[16:33] Ways that talk using four-letter words
[16:35] that you just used on a ship full of
[16:39] sailors
[16:41] and now you hear it on
[16:43] news media, popular news media.
[16:47] both men and women.
[16:50] >> And [clears throat] so I keep thinking
[16:51] of of trying to control speech or right
[16:56] speech or perfect speech.
[17:02] So
[17:04] it's a
[17:07] it's a standard like in the saga we use
[17:12] very kind speech. Usually we ask for
[17:15] permission to admonish and it's all
[17:18] organized to to create a situation for
[17:23] right speech rather than just
[17:27] emotional reactions to one's personal
[17:30] experiences.
[17:49] and so I guess the video also points to
[17:52] the like the ethical uh dimension of of
[17:56] the path in the sense that say um we can
[18:00] often hear your teachings like the way
[18:02] it is it's like this it can sound just
[18:04] quite passive like just to be aware of
[18:06] things But the Vinia points us back in
[18:09] that direction that there's a an ethical
[18:11] foundation to the practice.
[18:15] >> Well, that's the thing is that
[18:21] the grumbling still can happen when I
[18:24] don't speak on it.
[18:28] The way it is I'm aware
[18:31] my day four years in the Navy had a
[18:34] strong effect
[18:36] conditioning effect
[18:39] which would be inappropriate
[18:42] >> under the [clears throat] midnight.
[18:45] So sometimes
[18:47] my Saturdays come back to me but I'm
[18:51] aware of them and don't speak on it.
[18:57] So it's it's not like I
[19:01] have perfect speech
[19:03] inwardly, but I'm aware of of bad speech
[19:10] when it when it arises in consciousness,
[19:13] which is not to act on it,
[19:16] >> not to put it into words or abuse
[19:19] another person.
[19:26] This conditioning is is insidious. You
[19:30] know, you you
[19:33] I was brought up in a family that had
[19:36] very good speech
[19:39] and um
[19:43] Jesus Christ, the word Jesus Christ was
[19:46] a sacred word that you had reverence
[19:48] for.
[19:51] And when I became a anti-Christian,
[19:54] I began to swear Jesus Christ all
[19:58] [laughter]
[20:00] the rebellion.
[20:05] But in terms of right speech as a
[20:08] Buddhist monk, then
[20:11] Jesus Christ is not a curse word or an
[20:15] exclamation.
[20:18] you respect that as a
[20:21] because of the respect for other
[20:23] religions
[20:25] that you don't always agree with or
[20:28] approve of. But you you're not going to
[20:32] use bad speech against
[20:35] anything against other religions or any
[20:39] any anyone else.
[20:59] What were some of the were there any
[21:01] major difficulties that you that you
[21:04] face bringing this uh this viney over to
[21:07] England over to uh the western the
[21:10] western mind so to speak?
[21:14] >> Yes. You had to
[21:17] take into account it's a different
[21:19] climate and than Thailand and
[21:24] and different culture basically
[21:28] Christian culture
[21:31] and
[21:34] the British have their own way of
[21:38] interpreting experience.
[21:41] [clears throat]
[21:43] So a lot of the very strict precepts I
[21:47] had to loosen up
[21:50] not to because would scare away the
[21:53] British
[21:59] and it didn't seem to accomplish
[22:02] anything where in Thailand you got a
[22:03] whole culture that respects these rules
[22:07] >> but in Britain you they don't understand
[22:11] the point of it like the receiving the
[22:15] things on a cloth and things like
[22:18] according to Mia
[22:21] that's not necessary that's a tie
[22:24] >> adaptation to the rules about receiving
[22:29] food from women
[22:31] >> and uh
[22:33] like the Sri Lankan community they don't
[22:38] they just want to hand you the
[22:41] >> the food.
[22:42] >> Right. Right.
[22:44] >> And
[22:46] you know, you say, "No, you've got to
[22:48] put it on this cloth." [laughter]
[22:51] They look totally bewildered.
[22:54] Or an English woman would feel offended
[22:57] like you you with a feminist attitudes
[23:01] [clears throat]
[23:02] of modern European American life. you
[23:07] know that why can't you shake hands with
[23:10] a woman? It's just a greeting.
[23:12] >> And uh
[23:15] I've offended a lot of women by refusing
[23:18] to shake hands.
[23:24] >> So it doesn't always work.
[23:27] And you've got to more or less respond
[23:29] to time and place
[23:32] than to
[23:35] the just the Thai tradition alone,
[23:39] you know, because now they've got
[23:44] branch monasteries in Italy and in
[23:47] Portugal and Switzerland and
[23:50] Germany
[23:53] and America,
[23:55] Canada, Australia, all over the place.
[24:01] So it's
[24:04] like the the this shirt
[24:08] that we invented here in England
[24:12] is uh you know in terms of drink vini
[24:17] it's
[24:20] you shouldn't wear
[24:22] layman's clothes.
[24:24] So we designed it to make it monastic
[24:28] looking
[24:30] >> so it wouldn't not like a shirt a layman
[24:32] would wear
[24:34] and uh
[24:37] Thailand seemed to accept that
[24:42] because as you know in winter time a
[24:46] bare shoulder
[24:48] [laughter]
[24:51] or just going bindabat through the No,
[24:55] barefoot
[24:56] >> is absolutely stupid.
[25:03] And I thought the English will think
[25:05] we're morons or idiots or some sort.
[25:10] The first
[25:12] few weeks in London at Hamstead,
[25:16] I tried going bindabot barefoot
[25:19] up to Hamstead Heath.
[25:23] It was so utterly unpleasant walking on
[25:25] cold cement.
[25:30] And the British looked at me like I was
[25:33] a bit off mentally
[25:39] mentally off track.
[25:46] So we we designed this shirt and then we
[25:50] sent it to
[25:53] Bangkok to the Mahhater Sam
[25:57] for approval
[26:00] and we kept waiting for a reply
[26:04] that they never replied. [laughter]
[26:09] Then I got the feeling they were just
[26:12] trusting me to make the decisions.
[26:15] You know, they seem to have a lot of
[26:16] faith in me,
[26:20] >> learning to adapt to a northern European
[26:23] climate and totally different culture.
[26:31] And what Pap never
[26:34] uh criticized me for it.
[26:43] And the Fanca jacket was born.
[26:48] [laughter]
[26:53] But you had to,
[26:56] you know, and if I'd stayed in Thailand,
[26:58] I wouldn't have had to put up with any
[27:00] of that because it's so so completely
[27:03] one
[27:04] society.
[27:06] >> Very terraod and Buddhist. And so the
[27:11] lay people,
[27:13] the monks, the maches, everybody works
[27:16] together, which is very impressive.
[27:21] But uh you see it's very much the same
[27:25] conditioning
[27:28] and then I always like to reflect on the
[27:32] the conditioning process about
[27:36] you know being born your
[27:41] you have no conditions you have no
[27:43] personality
[27:45] you have no memories and then you're
[27:46] conditioned
[27:48] you're conditioned you're a boy or girl
[27:51] or you're British or
[27:55] Thai, you know, you these are things
[27:59] that
[28:01] that um
[28:04] are conditioned when you're innocent,
[28:07] when you don't know anything.
[28:12] So one of the feathers is silasa
[28:16] which is clinging to conventions.
[28:21] So it's a it's a really interesting to
[28:25] investigate you know how uh
[28:29] how much I just operate from the
[28:33] assumptions of that I got when I was a
[28:37] child.
[28:38] the condition cultural conditioning of
[28:41] that my parents gave me which I didn't I
[28:44] was baptized as a Christian when I was
[28:47] an infant I can't remember
[28:51] the event what [laughter]
[28:54] so when I became a Buddhist monk my
[28:56] mother said you're a baptized Christian
[29:02] and I replied I don't ever remember
[29:04] being baptized
[29:05] >> [laughter]
[29:12] >> But you know I really see the whole
[29:15] Buddhist structure as not as some kind
[29:19] of rigid
[29:21] just to make you into Buddhists or Thai
[29:25] Buddhists or terraodan Buddhists
[29:28] but as it's a universal teaching
[29:34] And it's that adapt you adapt it to the
[29:39] conditions you're having to survive in.
[29:48] And that's
[29:50] satipa, mindfulness and wisdom to be
[29:53] able to do that.
[29:56] [clears throat]
[29:59] Sometimes I wished I never left Thailand
[30:01] because it was so easy then.
[30:06] where in England I've had to stick my
[30:09] neck out and see what how many rocks are
[30:13] thrown at me. [laughter]
[30:18] >> Hopefully not too many more. [laughter]
[30:22] Well, I have old age that people don't
[30:25] British people are very respectful
[30:27] towards age.
[30:34] Well, thank you very much, Lumpur, for
[30:36] uh spending some time with us today.
[30:38] >> Thank you.