Transcript
[0:00] Hey, it's Kai here. For every episode
[0:02] this season, I'll be personally logging
[0:04] into YouTube on Wednesday around 10:00
[0:05] a.m. Pacific time to personally reply to
[0:08] as many comments and questions as I can.
[0:09] So, can't wait to hear from you guys and
[0:11] to engage. Thanks. Hey everyone, this is
[0:13] Kai Dickens and you're listening to the
[0:15] Reincarnation Records from TTT Media.
[0:26] Welcome back to the Reincarnation
[0:28] Records. This is episode 5. And quick
[0:30] disclaimer, this season builds on every
[0:32] episode that came before it. So, if you
[0:34] have not listened to the first four
[0:35] episodes, I highly encourage you to go
[0:37] back and do so now.
[0:39] For the last two episodes, we've been at
[0:41] the University of Virginia's Division of
[0:42] Perceptual Studies learning about the
[0:44] work of Dr. Ian Stevenson and the
[0:46] thousands of children that he rigorously
[0:48] studied who reported memories of
[0:50] previous lives. But for this episode, we
[0:52] wanted to go deep into one case, a case
[0:54] with many of the elements Stevenson
[0:56] looked for, spontaneous memories that
[0:58] begin very young and a detailed record
[1:00] of what the child said before anyone
[1:01] went looking for the deceased person who
[1:03] might match. But almost more
[1:05] importantly, we wanted a case that could
[1:06] help us explore a question Carol Bowman
[1:09] raised earlier in this season. Could
[1:10] remembering and confronting past lives
[1:13] actually be healing? Because in the
[1:15] majority of the cases where children
[1:16] remember past lives, they remember a
[1:18] traumatic death. And if some children
[1:20] come into this life carrying fear,
[1:22] anger, grief, or resentment over how
[1:24] another life ended, is there a benefit
[1:26] to confronting those memories head-on,
[1:28] to talking about what happened,
[1:30] understanding it, and maybe even finding
[1:32] some kind of peace, forgiveness, and
[1:34] resolution? And that's really the
[1:36] question at the heart of the case we're
[1:37] about to tell you.
[1:39] >> And he apparently started to remember
[1:41] his past life when he was about 18
[1:43] months. He started talking about his
[1:45] drowning. He started remembering his
[1:48] previous mother's name, father, where he
[1:51] went to school, his friends.
[1:54] >> That was Dr. Akila Weerasinghe, the
[1:56] Harvard neuroscientist who brought us
[1:57] the the that we'll be diving into today.
[2:00] And when we first met him, he wanted to
[2:01] make it very clear that studying
[2:03] reincarnation is not his job. Him
[2:05] becoming an expert on this case was
[2:07] definitely not on his bingo card.
[2:09] >> My name is Akila Weerasinghe. My main
[2:11] research involves neuroimaging and
[2:14] psychiatry at the moment. I got an
[2:15] appointment at Harvard Medical School in
[2:17] 2019.
[2:18] >> And today we're diving into a modern Sri
[2:20] Lankan case that consumed Dr.
[2:22] Weerasinghe's life for a few years
[2:24] because he entered an essay contest
[2:26] supported by the Bigelow Institute for
[2:28] Consciousness Studies, which was founded
[2:30] by aerospace entrepreneur Robert Bigelow
[2:32] to investigate one enormous question.
[2:36] >> Hundreds of people from around the world
[2:37] have been competing in a contest to show
[2:40] there is life after death.
[2:43] >> Las Vegas entrepreneur Robert Bigelow
[2:45] put up almost $2 million in prize money
[2:48] in maybe the biggest essay contest of
[2:50] all time to solve the biggest question
[2:53] of all time.
[2:54] >> Applicants had to demonstrate serious
[2:55] experience investigating consciousness
[2:57] or expertise in their field. And if this
[3:00] sounds familiar from episode 3, you're
[3:02] right. This is exactly how Dr. Ian
[3:03] Stevenson was swept into reincarnation
[3:05] research nearly 70 years ago.
[3:07] >> It was an essay competition. I thought
[3:10] maybe I could submit something with a
[3:12] collaborator. You can have any different
[3:14] type of models to explain what happened
[3:16] to consciousness after death. So I chose
[3:19] reincarnation.
[3:20] >> Dr. Weerasinghe grew up in Sri Lanka, a
[3:23] lush island nation just off the southern
[3:25] tip of India. About 70% of Sri Lanka is
[3:28] Buddhist and the belief in rebirth is
[3:30] woven into everyday life. University of
[3:32] Virginia Professor Dr. Ian Stevenson
[3:34] spent a lot of time there himself and he
[3:37] postulated that the culture's openness
[3:39] to rebirth made families more likely to
[3:40] report extraordinary stories, allowing
[3:43] investigators like him to document
[3:44] children's statements before they could
[3:46] be influenced or forgotten. And many
[3:48] investigators are quick to point out
[3:50] that this doesn't mean reincarnation
[3:52] happens in Sri Lanka more often, it
[3:54] simply means the cases are easier to
[3:56] find and investigate.
[3:57] And Dr. Weerasinghe remembered hearing
[4:00] about a compelling reincarnation case
[4:01] there involving a boy named Esra.
[4:04] >> A newspaper article was written about
[4:06] the case. This was in early 2000s and
[4:09] apparently Esra started to remember his
[4:12] past life when he was about 18 months.
[4:15] So I went back and I checked it and then
[4:17] I was able to contact Esra.
[4:19] >> So Esra is the boy central to this case
[4:21] that started recalling epic details of a
[4:23] past life in the early 2000s.
[4:25] >> He was in his early 20s and then he
[4:27] agreed to participate in the study. So
[4:30] that's how I got involved because of the
[4:32] big yellow competition.
[4:33] >> This case is one of the most layered and
[4:35] confounding that I've encountered in my
[4:37] research. It involves two boys separated
[4:39] by exactly one year. The first boy was
[4:42] named Tilanga Madhushan Ranasinghe and
[4:44] most people called him by his initials
[4:46] TMR which is how we'll refer to him. He
[4:49] lived in the city of Kandy, the last
[4:51] royal capital of Sri Lanka in the
[4:53] rolling hills near the Temple of Tooth,
[4:55] the country's most sacred Buddhist
[4:56] temple which houses a relic believed to
[4:59] be the Buddha's tooth. And TMR was 14
[5:02] years old when he went to a local river
[5:04] with friends and never came home.
[5:07] >> And he drowned in a river in Kandy
[5:11] January 31st, 2001.
[5:13] >> Exactly one year later Esra was born on
[5:16] January 31st, 2002. He was welcomed into
[5:19] a family that has nothing to do with
[5:21] this boy TMR. In fact, Esra's family
[5:24] lived nearly 200 miles to the south
[5:26] where there's a different dialect and
[5:28] even different cultural traditions. And
[5:30] we're you're able to interview Esra for
[5:32] this story.
[5:32] >> Hello everyone, it's me Esra Abashetha
[5:35] from Sri Lanka.
[5:36] Right now I'm 24 years old.
[5:39] >> Esra's oldest sister Bonsa took care of
[5:41] him when he was a baby and toddler which
[5:43] was common culturally. She was around 18
[5:46] years old when he was born but
[5:47] caregiving for this new baby brother was
[5:49] nothing she could have prepared for.
[5:51] In fact, one of the things she first
[5:53] noticed is that he would scream bloody
[5:54] murder when she tried to bathe him.
[5:56] >> His sister noticed that he has phobias.
[6:00] He doesn't want to shower like he's
[6:02] scared of water.
[6:03] >> And when he was about a year and a half
[6:05] old, he started saying something
[6:07] terrifying, that he remembered dying.
[6:10] >> His older sister told me that when he
[6:12] was quite young, one of the first things
[6:15] that he said, "I was drowning."
[6:17] >> Mama, what do they do when he did?
[6:19] >> And this uncle in a chariot came down
[6:23] and took me up to the sky.
[6:26] And then the sister was like she she
[6:27] didn't really understand what was
[6:28] happening.
[6:29] >> Isra's older sister, Bonsa, was the
[6:31] first person to meticulously start
[6:33] documenting this case, and we were able
[6:35] to interview her as well.
[6:36] >> So, Bonsa, do you feel comfortable
[6:38] speaking English?
[6:40] >> Not like my brother.
[6:41] >> That's okay. Maybe Aquila, do you want
[6:43] to translate?
[6:44] >> Hi, Bonsa. Okay, you can ask specific
[6:46] questions. She remembers more than Isra.
[6:49] >> Yeah.
[6:49] >> Documented everything.
[6:51] >> So, I know earlier he said he drowned
[6:52] and he saw a chariot come and take him
[6:54] to the sky. But, Bonsa, did he say how
[6:57] it happened?
[6:59] >> So, she's saying that he said he fell
[7:01] into the water and some type of a rock
[7:04] hit his chest and then he couldn't
[7:06] breathe. And when he was born, he had
[7:08] this dent caved into the chest.
[7:11] >> And is it He says it's still there? Are
[7:13] there any marks or any problems
[7:15] breathing?
[7:19] >> This dent still is visible and his mom
[7:22] told me that when he was born, it was
[7:24] very visible. The doctors were a bit
[7:27] concerned about it in the beginning.
[7:29] >> I have Dr. Weerasinghe's huge paper in
[7:31] front of me and it has pictures and
[7:33] x-rays of Isra from when he was younger
[7:35] and it is true that on the middle left
[7:37] side of his chest, there is a dent. And
[7:40] his doctors noted it's a congenital
[7:42] chest wall deformity that occurs in
[7:44] about 1 in 400 children and no other
[7:46] family members have a similar birth
[7:47] defect.
[7:48] >> When he was younger, he said a specific
[7:50] name that another boy drowned with him,
[7:53] that my friend Duminda also died that
[7:57] day.
[7:57] >> This part really gets me because a boy
[7:59] saying he drowned and hit his chest on a
[8:00] rock and couldn't breathe is one thing.
[8:02] Stating a name of someone who he says
[8:04] died with him is something else
[8:06] entirely. And then he started to talk
[8:08] about a city where his family has no
[8:10] connections nearly 200 miles away.
[8:12] >> When Israel was about 1 year 9 months,
[8:15] he started to say he's from Kandy in the
[8:18] southern province of Sri Lanka.
[8:20] >> Israel Kandy Kandy Kandy Kandy Kandy
[8:22] >> He started describing this place Kandy.
[8:25] They've never been to Kandy before. It's
[8:27] like a 6-7 hour drive from where he was
[8:30] born.
[8:30] >> I start to talk about I want to go to
[8:33] Kandy to see my parents to see my mother
[8:36] in Kandy.
[8:37] >> This is so hard to comprehend and all I
[8:39] can think about is when my kids were
[8:40] really young and you're so excited for
[8:42] not just their first words, but to look
[8:44] at you and say mama. And I cannot
[8:47] imagine if either of my children when
[8:49] they first started talking told me they
[8:51] want to go see their mother or as he
[8:54] sometimes said my other mother.
[8:56] >> As time went by, he started remembering
[8:59] detailed information about the very
[9:01] famous Sri Lankan temple in Kandy. He
[9:04] was explaining how he used to go to the
[9:06] temple with his mother.
[9:08] >> And this is where the story moves beyond
[9:09] a toddler simply bringing up names.
[9:12] Israel starts displaying what
[9:14] researchers at the University of
[9:15] Virginia call private knowledge,
[9:18] information a young child seemingly
[9:20] should have no way of knowing. And it
[9:21] wasn't just Kandy, a city where he's
[9:23] never been or people's names that the
[9:25] family did not know. He started talking
[9:27] intimately and often about the Temple of
[9:29] Tooth. And yes, this temple is famous,
[9:32] but Israel nor his family had ever been
[9:34] there and he wasn't just naming it. He
[9:37] started describing specific events from
[9:39] its past including things that happened
[9:41] before he was born. And he shared these
[9:43] memories as if he'd lived through them.
[9:45] >> One specific that she remembers is that
[9:47] he started talking about the the attack
[9:49] on the Temple of Tooth. There was a bomb
[9:52] attack and there was some destruction in
[9:54] the '90s or the before Israel was born.
[9:57] >> Right. And had they talked about that at
[9:59] home or would he have any way to know
[10:00] about that?
[10:01] >> It was not a recent event and they
[10:03] didn't talk about it. So when he started
[10:06] talking about it, they started
[10:08] remembering.
[10:08] >> I looked up to see if there ever was a
[10:10] bombing at the Temple of the Tooth, and
[10:12] there was in 1998.
[10:14] And I want to note that TMR, the boy
[10:17] that Isra says he was in his past life,
[10:19] would have been 11 years old when the
[10:21] bombing happened.
[10:22] And he died when he was only 14. So, if
[10:24] Isra is somehow remembering TMR's life,
[10:27] this definitely was not a distant
[10:28] historical event. It would have happened
[10:30] during TMR's childhood, just years
[10:32] before he died at a temple that he
[10:34] visited every day with his mother. So,
[10:35] you'd imagine that would leave a mark on
[10:37] a kid. Here is Isra again.
[10:39] >> My elder sister who is joining with me
[10:42] right now in the Zoom, and she took a
[10:46] book and wrote every single thing I'm
[10:49] telling.
[10:50] >> His sister Banaza instinctively did
[10:52] something researchers in this field have
[10:53] emphasized for decades. She wrote
[10:55] everything down before anyone went to
[10:57] look for who he might be describing. And
[11:00] that distinction is uber important
[11:02] because if you want to understand
[11:03] whether child is describing a life that
[11:05] can be verified, you have to know what
[11:07] was said before anyone went looking for
[11:09] the person so it's not influenced. And
[11:11] one of the things she noted early on is
[11:13] just so odd. And when I first heard it,
[11:15] I thought it actually goes against the
[11:17] theory that Isra could have been TMR in
[11:19] a past life.
[11:20] >> She saw he's writing some letters. It
[11:22] was Japanese and then he said that he
[11:24] wanted to use chopsticks to eat. Which
[11:28] we don't do in Sri Lanka, but he wanted
[11:31] to eat with chopsticks.
[11:32] >> So now little Isra is writing Japanese
[11:34] characters and asking to use chopsticks,
[11:37] neither of which are common in Sri
[11:38] Lanka.
[11:39] >> And they have no exposure to Japanese
[11:42] where they were born or where they were
[11:44] lived at the time. He has said that in
[11:46] his previous life an older guy had
[11:49] taught him about this culture.
[11:51] >> So when asked about this, Isra said that
[11:53] he knew how to do these things because
[11:55] he had a caregiver in his previous life
[11:57] as TMR that was Japanese. So file that
[11:59] away because by the end of the episode,
[12:01] we'll see if that checks out. But at
[12:03] this point in the story, the most
[12:04] important thing is that Isra wasn't just
[12:06] talking about his past life. He started
[12:09] exhibiting behaviors, habits, and
[12:11] talents that weren't taught to him and
[12:12] that he did not pick up from the world
[12:14] around him.
[12:15] >> But he remembered that he has played
[12:18] cricket, which is all the play in Sri
[12:19] Lanka.
[12:20] >> In Dr. Weerasinghe's paper, it was noted
[12:22] that Esira as a little boy actually told
[12:24] his sister that he was such a good
[12:25] cricket player that he represented Sri
[12:27] Lanka on a youth national team that took
[12:29] him to India. And at this point in the
[12:31] story, Esira's parents weren't
[12:32] necessarily leaning into these claims.
[12:34] They just wanted them to go away.
[12:36] >> They take him to the Southern Cricket
[12:38] Academy and Esira is the first time he
[12:41] hit the ball as a professional. And then
[12:44] the trainer asked his father like, was
[12:46] he trained before? And you just It's not
[12:49] just like hitting a ball. There's a form
[12:51] to it. And he's like, "No, he doesn't
[12:53] even play cricket."
[12:54] >> And from what I've researched, a cricket
[12:55] batting swing takes a lot of repetition
[12:57] to learn. You have to judge the ball's
[12:59] line and length. You have to move your
[13:01] feet accordingly and bring the bat
[13:02] through straight while generating power.
[13:04] And little Esira, who's preschool age,
[13:06] could do that flawlessly. And the
[13:08] skeptic in me thinks, well, it could
[13:09] have been luck or he could just have
[13:11] natural athletic ability. But then Esira
[13:13] demonstrated another talent that luck
[13:15] couldn't really explain away. It had to
[13:17] do with candy and dance, the classical
[13:20] dance tradition from the hill country
[13:21] around Kandy. It has its own specific
[13:24] movements and rhythms and drumming and
[13:25] gestures and it's learned through
[13:27] training. From a Western perspective,
[13:29] think of something like the Scottish
[13:30] Highland dancing. It has a very
[13:32] particular cultural tradition attached
[13:34] to it with its own technique. And
[13:35] remember that Esira lived almost 200
[13:38] miles from Kandy and had never been
[13:39] there. So, one day when Esira was still
[13:41] very little, around 2 3 years old, there
[13:43] was a parade.
[13:47] >> Within the procession, sometimes they
[13:49] drum these Kandyan dancing beats. So,
[13:52] when this little Esira hear this, he
[13:55] started dancing how the Kandyan people
[13:57] danced, those dances.
[13:58] >> I was able to dance all the steps that
[14:01] they have practiced for months and
[14:03] months within just one simple step.
[14:06] >> He was not taught this dance. So, when
[14:08] he hear this noise of the drumming, he
[14:10] started dancing as if somebody taught
[14:12] him that.
[14:12] >> And those steps are perfect.
[14:14] >> But but but Esira, how did you know how
[14:16] to do it? I mean, if you've never been
[14:18] taught it, right? Like, where Where do
[14:19] you think it came from?
[14:20] >> I don't know how it came. I felt like
[14:22] I've done this before, but I cannot
[14:24] explain how it happened. I love the
[14:26] feeling of traditional Kandyan drumming.
[14:29] I felt like all these things are already
[14:32] in my blood.
[14:33] >> He said, "I felt like all of these
[14:34] things were already in my blood."
[14:37] >> I knew it, and I was able to, you know,
[14:39] dance as the same as they were.
[14:42] >> And then, as Isra got better at forming
[14:44] words, details became way more specific.
[14:46] >> He could remember that he had dogs,
[14:49] Jimmy and Chico, all friends.
[14:51] >> So, he knew names of friends and and the
[14:53] dogs. And then came the thing that his
[14:55] family feared most. Isra said he wanted
[14:58] to go to Kandy to see his old family.
[15:00] Here's Isra again.
[15:01] >> I started to talk about I want to go to
[15:04] Kandy to see my parents, to see my
[15:06] mother in Kandy.
[15:07] >> And just to clarify, Isra's talking
[15:09] about visiting his mother, his family
[15:10] from his past life, the one he says he
[15:12] lived before in Kandy. So, just imagine
[15:15] if you were a parent and your child
[15:17] started asking that of you.
[15:19] >> So, that point, they have realized the
[15:21] son, which means I am not talking about
[15:23] to go on a trip, it's something beyond
[15:25] that.
[15:26] >> And when Isra talked about going to see
[15:27] his Kandyan mother and father, something
[15:30] else caught his family's attention. He
[15:32] used a word for father used in the Kandy
[15:34] region, and not their region of the
[15:35] country.
[15:36] >> Kandy dialect is a bit different than
[15:39] rest of the country. There's very
[15:40] particular like name for father,
[15:42] appachchi, like we don't use that.
[15:44] >> Okay, so he said appachchi for father.
[15:46] What do people say where Isra was from?
[15:48] Like, is it similar to that?
[15:49] >> We say that that is more of a European
[15:52] descent word than appachchi. It was not
[15:55] spoken in the down south. So, that was
[15:57] specific to Kandy.
[15:59] >> Okay, so then what happened next and how
[16:00] did he convince them to go down there?
[16:02] >> He's between 2 and 3 years old, and he's
[16:04] telling his father that he wants a
[16:06] computer. And the father bought him a a
[16:09] desktop computer, and then he started
[16:11] using it and using Paint, on Microsoft
[16:14] Paint, he drew a map to his house, his
[16:18] older his previous house. He started
[16:20] constantly talking about it at that
[16:22] point. Like he really wanted to go and
[16:24] he's telling Bansa about, you know, that
[16:26] he really wants to see his mother.
[16:28] >> I want to stop for a second just to take
[16:30] stock of how wild this is. Isra has not
[16:33] even started school yet. His family has
[16:35] never been to Kandy. They have no idea
[16:37] who TMR, the boy who drowned in the
[16:38] river, is or whether this previous
[16:41] family that he's describing even exists.
[16:43] They're not using the internet like most
[16:45] people in Sri Lanka or even the world at
[16:47] the time. And even if there was an easy
[16:49] way to search or look up these people
[16:50] and places hundreds of miles away, they
[16:52] did not have much desire to go looking
[16:54] for them. And then Isra, who's not even
[16:56] three, gets on a computer and uses
[16:58] Microsoft Paint to draw a map to the
[17:01] house where he says he used to live.
[17:03] >> And then Bansa, she got a little bit
[17:05] scared that what if his past life
[17:08] memories and present memories kind of
[17:10] get mixed up and he will be confused and
[17:12] it could kind of mentally damage him.
[17:15] There could be like a mental breakdown
[17:17] or something could happen.
[17:18] >> Or if Carol Bowman, who you met in the
[17:19] first two episodes, was correct in her
[17:21] hypothesis, it could be extremely
[17:23] healing. Maybe even helping him overcome
[17:25] his phobia around water and bathing. And
[17:28] we will find out after we take a quick
[17:29] break.
[17:36] Welcome back. Where we left off, Isra,
[17:38] who's having detailed memories of a past
[17:40] life and is now two, maybe just barely
[17:42] three years old, draws a map to what he
[17:45] says is his old house using Microsoft
[17:47] Paint. And he also put other landmarks
[17:49] on the map.
[17:50] >> He drew where the temple was. I think
[17:52] that was like the reference point and
[17:54] then he drew where the house was. And
[17:56] the sister also said that there's a body
[17:58] of water.
[17:59] >> So, was the family on board?
[18:00] >> Nobody really wanted to go there, right?
[18:03] They were afraid of what if he doesn't
[18:05] come back, what if they want to keep
[18:06] him. And then he drew the map. The main
[18:08] thing that he said was, "I want to see
[18:10] my mother."
[18:14] After I see my mother, I'll stop talking
[18:16] about it. He pleaded to his sister
[18:18] because others don't want to deal with
[18:20] it much because, you know, they were a
[18:21] bit afraid. And so she explained that to
[18:23] her father and then even though they
[18:25] didn't really want to do this, they
[18:27] agreed at the end.
[18:29] >> And when Iesure was 4 years old, his
[18:31] family took him down to Kandy. They had
[18:33] no idea how to find or contact the
[18:35] family he seemed to remember outside of
[18:36] simply following the map that he'd
[18:38] drawn. Less than 1% of Sri Lanka had
[18:41] access to the internet at this time. So
[18:43] they were really heading down there with
[18:44] nothing more than a map drawn by a
[18:46] toddler and his quote and quote
[18:48] memories.
[18:49] >> So in Kandy they didn't know anybody.
[18:51] They have no relatives, friends, no one.
[18:54] They didn't know anybody in Kandy. But a
[18:56] city close to it there were some of
[18:58] their family. So they took a train to
[19:01] that city called Matale and then they
[19:03] hired a van like a three-wheeler this
[19:06] thing that we have in Sri Lanka like a
[19:08] taxi to take them to Kandy from there.
[19:10] So they stayed overnight in Matale and
[19:12] then early morning they went to Kandy.
[19:14] He told them, "Before I go to see my
[19:17] mom, I want to go to the temple."
[19:21] >> And going to the Temple of the Tooth
[19:23] first made a lot of sense because little
[19:25] Iesure had also drawn the temple on his
[19:27] map and that's actually the landmark
[19:29] from which he drew how to get to what he
[19:31] remembers being his old house. And when
[19:33] they arrived at the temple, he showed
[19:35] them where the main door was.
[19:36] >> And he told them where to put the shoes,
[19:39] where to place them before we enter the
[19:41] temple as if he was a regular a visitor
[19:44] to the temple.
[19:45] >> Inside the temple, he actually convinced
[19:47] a monk of his past life due to his
[19:48] specific insider knowledge.
[19:50] >> He started telling about the history of
[19:52] the statue made out of gems. Like a
[19:55] previous king had made it for his
[19:58] mother. Like the backstory of this
[20:00] statue. There was a a Buddhist monk
[20:02] nearby and he heard this child talking
[20:05] about this and he has asked, "How do you
[20:07] know about this?"
[20:08] >> He has said that I was here before and I
[20:11] know everything about this temple. And
[20:14] then the monk asked the dad, "What what
[20:16] is he talking about?" And the dad said,
[20:17] "He's talking about his previous life.
[20:19] You know, that's why we brought him to
[20:21] Kandy." So this Buddhist monk initially
[20:24] a bit skeptical about it, and he has
[20:26] asked that his father, "Is it okay if I
[20:28] ask him some questions about the
[20:30] temple?"
[20:31] >> Okay, so
[20:32] can you give just a few examples?
[20:34] >> This Buddhist monk, he pointed to a
[20:36] place and asked, "What's there?" So, it
[20:38] was actually a museum.
[20:42] Isara said, "Uh it's something that you
[20:44] go to after you pay some money. You go
[20:47] to see something." He didn't know how to
[20:49] say museum. He said that.
[20:51] >> And just to put this in context, they
[20:53] were standing inside of a room where you
[20:54] can't necessarily see the museum. So,
[20:57] you have to have some sort of
[20:58] situational awareness in this temple to
[21:00] even answer these questions correctly.
[21:02] And so, Isara seemed to know that in the
[21:04] direction that the monk was pointing,
[21:05] there was a museum. And he described it
[21:07] as a place where you pay to see
[21:09] something. So, not a slam dunk of
[21:10] evidence, but the monk wasn't done.
[21:13] >> And he pointed to a different direction
[21:15] and asked, "What's there?"
[21:16] >> Suggesting that beyond the wall or
[21:17] beyond where they could see, there's
[21:19] something important there.
[21:22] >> Then Isara said there's a elephant, this
[21:25] is stuffed elephant, which is true.
[21:27] >> I looked this up myself, and there was a
[21:29] real tusker elephant who served at the
[21:31] Kandy Temple of Tooth. And after the
[21:33] elephant died in 1989, its body was
[21:36] preserved or taxidermied and put on
[21:38] display on the temple grounds.
[21:39] >> So, he answered all these questions, and
[21:41] then the monk was convinced that
[21:43] something is really going on.
[21:44] >> Before they left the temple that
[21:46] afternoon, Isara stopped in front of a
[21:48] row of framed photographs on the wall.
[21:50] He recognized them. And this ties back
[21:53] to the bombing of the temple that Isara
[21:54] started talking about very young,
[21:56] something that confounded the family
[21:57] because it's nothing that was ever
[21:58] brought up in his presence.
[22:00] >> Before they went to Kandy, he he Isara
[22:02] told his sister about one of his
[22:05] friends. He named the friend that took
[22:07] photos of the destruction. After they
[22:10] went there to the the temple, they found
[22:13] those photos inside the temple.
[22:17] And then he showed the photos, and he's
[22:19] told, "These are the three pictures that
[22:21] I've the photos that I've was talking
[22:22] about before."
[22:23] >> Wow.
[22:25] Okay, so now they leave the temple
[22:28] and it's time to go try to find his
[22:30] family. So, what do they do next?
[22:31] >> So, they came out of the temple. Now,
[22:35] they want to go see the house, the
[22:36] previous home. So, they followed his
[22:38] map. He drew exactly where to go.
[22:41] >> And along the way he kept identifying
[22:43] landmarks like a tour guide.
[22:45] >> He talked about this tiny waterfall kind
[22:47] of thing in his map. And they passed
[22:50] that waterfall. They were traveling
[22:52] there. He showed, "This is the waterfall
[22:53] that I was talking about."
[22:55] He went to another road and then he
[22:58] pointed, "This is where my house is."
[23:00] But apparently there was nothing there.
[23:02] It was like torn apart, like they are
[23:04] going to build something else. Their
[23:06] house was not there. [music] And he
[23:07] started crying, profusely crying.
[23:13] >> It had taken [music] months for Isuba to
[23:15] convince his family to bring him to
[23:16] Kandy. And he'd been begging to go there
[23:18] for one reason. He wanted to see his
[23:20] mother, his old mother.
[23:22] And somehow this little boy from nearly
[23:25] 200 miles away had drawn an accurate map
[23:28] [music] from the Temple of Tooth to this
[23:29] exact spot where he believed he would
[23:32] find the mother that he'd been longing
[23:33] to see so badly. And when he got to the
[23:36] spot, nothing was there. The house was
[23:39] gone. So, of course he was in tears.
[23:42] >> When they asked him, "Why are you
[23:43] crying?" My that home was demolished.
[23:47] And then he showed
[23:49] like another direction. He showed that
[23:51] there you can see like a Buddhist statue
[23:53] like far away.
[23:56] And he said, "I want to go there." I
[23:57] think there his friends were living
[23:59] there. So, he wanted to go there next.
[24:02] The person who
[24:04] came to accompany them, he said, "It's a
[24:06] bit far. You know, we might not be able
[24:08] to walk there."
[24:08] >> Remember, the family had hired a driver
[24:10] to get them around.
[24:11] >> But then Isuba just laughed and said,
[24:14] "You know, we don't need to take a taxi.
[24:16] I know shortcuts. I know a way to go
[24:19] there much faster." So, this guy had the
[24:21] knowledge how to go
[24:23] in a how to walk from there instead of
[24:25] taking a taxi.
[24:26] >> So, Isuba takes his family on this
[24:28] extraordinary odyssey through candy,
[24:30] pointing out landmarks, roads, and
[24:32] shortcuts along the way. He correctly
[24:34] brings his family on foot to the
[24:36] Bahirawa of Akhanda Buddha statue, which
[24:39] he had identified from a distance. And
[24:41] he took them to the statue because
[24:42] supposedly it was next to a home of a
[24:44] good friend that he had in his past
[24:46] life.
[24:46] >> He wanted to go to one of his friend's
[24:48] places. So, when they went there,
[24:50] there's a restaurant there. That house
[24:52] was also non-existing at the time.
[24:54] >> Isra tried to explain to his family that
[24:55] he was not confused. This was his
[24:57] friend's house, and to prove it, he
[24:59] started talking about what was behind
[25:01] the restaurant.
[25:01] >> There's like a like a wooded area. That
[25:04] So, you cannot see anything behind that.
[25:07] But he he told them that there's a sort
[25:10] of a
[25:11] steps made out of rocks behind that, but
[25:14] they could not see it.
[25:15] >> The manager heard this 4-year-old boy
[25:17] upset and passionate outside his
[25:18] restaurant. He talked to the family and
[25:20] was told that he was remembering his
[25:22] past life and led them there. And the
[25:24] manager decided to test little Isra,
[25:26] just like the monk did.
[25:28] >> And then the manager of the hotel or the
[25:30] restaurant came out and then they he
[25:31] heard this Isra is telling them about
[25:34] this. And then he has he has told that
[25:36] there's no steps
[25:38] behind that wooded area, like
[25:41] But he's like, "No, no, I'll show you."
[25:43] And then he took them there and he
[25:44] pulled those trees away apart some of
[25:46] these bushes and then he showed that.
[25:48] And then the manager says, "Yeah, I I
[25:50] knew that. I just wanted to check if you
[25:52] if, you know, what you're saying is
[25:54] true. That's why I was asking you."
[25:56] >> And in your research, Tequila, did you
[25:57] find out if TMR really did have a friend
[25:59] who lived there?
[25:59] >> After that Tilanga died in that in his
[26:02] previous life.
[26:03] >> When he says Tilanga, he's referring to
[26:05] TMR's first name.
[26:06] >> That friend and the family kind of moved
[26:09] or out from that area because
[26:11] it was like shocked and they were sad
[26:13] about it and they couldn't live there.
[26:15] So,
[26:16] that's why they left there.
[26:17] >> Wow. Okay, so at this point they still
[26:19] hadn't contacted the family. Yeah.
[26:20] >> So, when they were there in close to the
[26:23] restaurant, I think, you know, the word
[26:25] kind of got out that there's a small kid
[26:27] in talking about his previous life and
[26:29] people around them all heard about the
[26:32] what he's talking about and these taxi
[26:34] drivers kind of they said, oh yeah,
[26:36] maybe he's talking about this particular
[26:38] family.
[26:38] >> And a taxi driver points them toward a
[26:40] local town official. This official
[26:42] listens to Isa's story and realizes he
[26:45] knows exactly which family they're
[26:46] talking about. In fact, he'd gone to
[26:49] school with TMR's sister. So this
[26:51] official calls her, tells her about the
[26:53] little boy who's come looking for the
[26:54] family and a meeting was arranged at a
[26:56] restaurant.
[26:57] >> So Isa and his family will go to this uh
[26:59] restaurant and they will wait there. Isa
[27:01] is like playing and they were waiting
[27:03] for a while. Foreigners come and go like
[27:06] there's a lot of people come to this
[27:07] restaurant. It's pretty It's a hotel
[27:09] restaurant I think it's like a hotel.
[27:11] Suddenly he stopped playing and he
[27:12] looked at the door and he started
[27:14] screaming saying, "Mom."
[27:18] Then he rested his head on the one of
[27:20] the tables that he that when that uh
[27:23] whoever the woman came in like the the
[27:25] previous mom.
[27:26] >> So again, I want to put this in context.
[27:28] Isa is a little boy. His current family
[27:30] has no idea what this other supposed
[27:32] family is going to look like when they
[27:34] walk through the door and Isa sees a
[27:36] woman walk through the door, starts
[27:38] screaming, "Mom." And then starts
[27:39] crying.
[27:40] >> Isa, do you remember that?
[27:42] >> Not only that particular memory, I still
[27:44] remember every single fact that has
[27:46] happened as yesterday.
[27:48] >> He remembers as it were yesterday.
[27:50] >> That lady who came inside the hotel, she
[27:53] didn't come to them because she didn't
[27:54] know them. So she went to the hotel
[27:56] manager and explained like I'm here to
[27:59] meet this family whose son is talking
[28:01] about his previous [music] life.
[28:03] And the manager then took her and told
[28:05] her, "Okay, that's the family." So at
[28:07] that time, Isa's family didn't know why
[28:10] he was crying. So the two sisters were
[28:12] going to take him outside to give him a
[28:14] toy to like make him stop crying.
[28:16] >> Isa, do you remember what was going
[28:17] through your head at the time?
[28:18] >> I still remember the particular exact
[28:20] moment. [music] I still remember how I
[28:22] felt, but it's quite hard for me to
[28:25] convert it into a word. So
[28:28] >> Were you happy or were you like uh
[28:30] heartbroken?
[28:30] >> sort of a mixed feeling I would say. Oh,
[28:33] happy, sad, emotional.
[28:36] >> Isra's sister Bonza jumps in to talk
[28:38] more about what Isra told her about his
[28:40] emotions that day.
[28:44] >> The day that he died, he didn't tell his
[28:46] mom he was cutting school and going to
[28:49] swim. So, he had this guilt.
[28:52] So, that kind of transferred to Isra as
[28:53] well. I did a bad thing.
[28:59] He's going against my mom.
[29:02] That's where that mixed feeling comes
[29:04] from at the moment that they met for the
[29:06] first time.
[29:10] >> So, the family of TMR is pointed toward
[29:12] the right table and they come and sit
[29:14] down.
[29:15] And I can't imagine being in a situation
[29:17] like this. I mean, how on earth would
[29:18] you break the ice? And Bonza, Isra's big
[29:20] sister, who was responsible for getting
[29:22] them all down there, started to go
[29:23] through her notebook and tells TMR's
[29:26] mother all the things that little Isra
[29:27] had said about his past life to see if
[29:29] any of it checked out.
[29:30] >> Isra's sister Bonza started telling that
[29:33] mother all the things that he's been
[29:35] telling her. And there was a particular
[29:37] one that he has said that I attended a
[29:39] wedding. This is before he died. And
[29:41] that the mom bought him a red color
[29:43] shirt. And the mom has said, "Oh, I I
[29:45] still have that shirt in my house." She
[29:48] was like, "How does he know that he went
[29:50] to a wedding and that I bought him the
[29:52] shirt?" He talked about two dogs that
[29:54] that he had before he went to Kandy and
[29:56] he named them. They verified that he had
[29:59] dogs named Jimmy and Chico.
[30:01] >> Did they bring up the map on the first
[30:02] day and what did she say about that
[30:03] location?
[30:04] >> She mentioned that yeah, we used to live
[30:06] there and then the government of the
[30:08] town took over the that land and gave
[30:10] them some money to kind of move out. So,
[30:12] she confirmed that.
[30:13] >> I cannot believe the map was correct.
[30:15] There's no way to explain that.
[30:16] >> Exactly. I don't know how to explain
[30:18] that.
[30:19] >> So, Aquila, can we just back up, you
[30:20] know, and give TMR just his moment, you
[30:23] know, like what did you discover about
[30:24] him? What was he interested in? What was
[30:26] he like? And how did he pass?
[30:28] >> TMR was 14 years old. He was uh saying
[30:31] that the teenager he had a lot of
[30:32] friends. He was quite popular because he
[30:34] was a cricketer and he he was a good
[30:37] cricketer. He was chosen for the uh Sri
[30:39] Lankan I think under 19 national team.
[30:42] He went to India representing Sri Lanka.
[30:44] >> So what Isra told his sister starting at
[30:46] around 2 and 1/2 that he was a good
[30:48] cricket player who had gone to India to
[30:50] compete checked out. It was true.
[30:52] >> So he was pretty famous in his high
[30:55] school and a lot of people knew him in
[30:57] high school and in the city.
[30:59] >> Okay, and then what else like what what
[31:01] else convinced her do you think?
[31:03] >> So in the previous life the last thing
[31:05] that he asked his mom was a guitar. When
[31:07] Isra was pretty young the first toy that
[31:09] he wanted was a guitar.
[31:12] Isra was asking the previous mother for
[31:15] his cricket bat and the ball.
[31:18] >> What did she say?
[31:19] >> Put it away love it.
[31:20] >> She has given it to someone else. Yeah.
[31:22] >> The mother also confirmed that he was an
[31:24] established Kandyan dancer and that
[31:27] there was a man in his life that taught
[31:29] him some Japanese and how to use
[31:30] chopsticks and the names that he
[31:32] remembered of friends and family members
[31:34] were correct. There was just a few
[31:36] things that Dr. Werasekara was not able
[31:37] to verify. For instance, Isra said his
[31:39] family owned a red car but they owned a
[31:41] green car and he also talked about
[31:43] someone named Pothu Ayya who fell in the
[31:44] bathroom and then later suffered a fever
[31:46] and died. So those remain a riddle but
[31:48] almost everything else checked out.
[31:50] >> I think she was more convinced at the
[31:52] time about the whole situation and then
[31:54] they kind of
[31:55] trusted what was happening was real.
[31:58] >> So if this were me even with all of
[32:00] these unexplained synchronicities and
[32:02] the stack of evidence, I'd be really
[32:04] worried that grief was making me believe
[32:06] something I desperately wanted to be
[32:08] true. But there was something else,
[32:10] something absolutely jaw-dropping that
[32:13] may explain why TMR's mother accepted
[32:15] the invitation to meet Isra so quickly.
[32:18] She had been praying for this exact
[32:19] moment for years.
[32:23] >> After he passed, this mother was doing
[32:26] good deeds like giving to the poor and
[32:28] all these things. And what she was
[32:30] praying for is not Nirvana but she was
[32:32] praying that her son the lost son will
[32:35] be born somewhere else and come to her.
[32:38] The mom, she became a vegetarian because
[32:41] she's doing good deeds, going to the
[32:43] temple, and she's praying for that son
[32:46] to be born somewhere and come to her.
[32:48] >> So, I want to summarize this here
[32:49] because it seems really important. After
[32:52] TMR died, his mother began praying daily
[32:55] for him to return. She did good deeds,
[32:57] she gave up meat hoping somehow that all
[33:00] of this would bring him back. And then,
[33:02] exactly 1 year to the day later, Isra
[33:05] was born. And from infancy, Isra could
[33:08] not tolerate meat.
[33:09] >> They try to feed him meat, the fish, he
[33:12] would puke. Almost like an allergic
[33:13] reaction. The smell from a restaurant
[33:16] also, like he could not stand.
[33:17] >> TMR's mother believes her daily prayers
[33:20] and her good deeds, like giving up meat,
[33:22] somehow influenced Isra, the child who
[33:25] came next.
[33:26] >> Her belief is that because she became a
[33:28] vegetarian, that kind of influenced Isra
[33:30] to be, you know, a vegetarian.
[33:33] >> Now, no one can prove that these are
[33:34] connected. Like, we are absolutely in no
[33:36] man's land here. But, there's something
[33:38] mind-blowing about the possibility that
[33:41] TMR's mother's prayers for his return
[33:43] and the sacrifices she made while
[33:45] waiting for him somehow became tangled
[33:47] up in the consciousness of the child who
[33:49] came back.
[33:50] >> Science cannot really explain this at
[33:52] the moment, but maybe one day we might
[33:54] be able to explain this.
[33:55] >> So, now, Aquila, can you please take us
[33:57] back to the morning that TMR died? And,
[34:00] you know, what happened and how does
[34:02] that compare to what Isra remembers?
[34:05] >> That day, he left home in the morning,
[34:08] but then he met these friends.
[34:10] Uh and then, they told him, uh let's not
[34:12] go to school in the morning, let's go to
[34:14] the river, have a swim.
[34:18] Let's cut school and go there. So,
[34:20] that's what they did that morning. And
[34:21] then, his body was found around 5:00
[34:25] p.m. that day by the police. He was a
[34:27] very good swimmer, so people couldn't
[34:29] understand like he could not have
[34:30] drowned. You know, that this guy could
[34:32] swim.
[34:33] >> And I want to note here that a few boys
[34:35] went swimming and TMR was not the only
[34:37] boy to have drowned.
[34:38] >> Two people died that day, he was one of
[34:39] them.
[34:40] >> So, just to interrupt you I know that he
[34:42] said the name of the boy he died with
[34:44] when he was little. Was that correct?
[34:45] >> Yeah, exactly name.
[34:47] >> And some boys who were there lived.
[34:49] >> They were also teenagers, I think 14, 15
[34:51] years old kids. But what these boys are
[34:53] saying, they all went swimming and Isra
[34:56] and the other boy couldn't swim. They
[34:57] said that they got into some current
[34:59] water current, they got trapped and they
[35:02] died. And we somehow swam into the other
[35:04] side and we survived. So, that was their
[35:06] version.
[35:07] >> Um did the police
[35:10] expect foul play? Did they have any
[35:11] conclusions for how he died?
[35:13] >> No foul play was suspected, but when
[35:16] they found the body, they found that a
[35:18] wallet and all these bus passes and
[35:20] everything was with him. So, if somebody
[35:22] is going swimming, you're not going out
[35:24] with all these things. They're going to
[35:25] put them aside, clothes aside, and then
[35:27] you go swimming. So, that kind of proves
[35:30] that they weren't really swimming.
[35:32] >> And then there's what Isra says he
[35:33] remembers from when he was still TMR.
[35:35] >> I suddenly fall and hit my chest on the
[35:38] rock.
[35:40] >> Previous mom told me that when I asked
[35:41] her like how he died and then they said
[35:43] he didn't really drown when he went into
[35:45] the water, he plunged onto a rock and
[35:48] that kind of damaged his chest area.
[35:51] >> I just want to pause you really quick,
[35:52] Aquila, because earlier we talked about
[35:54] Isra being born with a dent in his
[35:56] chest. And now it's confirmed that this
[35:59] last person died when a rock hit his
[36:02] chest. So, I'm just wondering how you
[36:04] think this is possible.
[36:05] >> I I don't think that we can come to a
[36:07] conclusion at this time. There has to be
[36:09] some kind of a biological a blueprint.
[36:12] In this blueprint, make this area like
[36:15] this. There's a dent. Why does it
[36:16] happen? Can we switch off certain genes
[36:18] to make that happen?
[36:19] >> And Dr. Weir Secre made it very clear he
[36:21] doesn't know. He has all sorts of things
[36:23] he wants to test and wants to look into
[36:25] further. He also talked about genetic
[36:27] testing just like Dops did. Like
[36:28] actually exhuming TMR's body and
[36:30] comparing genetic code between TMR and
[36:32] Isra to see if there's a link. There's
[36:34] so much to look into and until that
[36:36] science is done, everyone is just
[36:37] hypothesizing and guessing.
[36:39] >> We break this down. This is karma, this
[36:41] is consciousness, this is mind.
[36:43] You know, I think maybe the one thing.
[36:47] >> So, Isra, going back to that day, you
[36:48] didn't take your wallet out. Like, do
[36:49] you think you were pushed? Is that what
[36:51] you think happened to you?
[36:52] >> I have to be neutral in this answer like
[36:55] whether I've been pushed or not. I'm not
[36:57] disclosing much what I felt like and
[37:00] what I actually remember. I hope you get
[37:04] my point because bygones are bygones. I
[37:06] mean,
[37:07] I don't want any other personality to
[37:09] make a discomfort to remember the same.
[37:11] >> Yeah.
[37:12] >> You have to confidential.
[37:13] >> Isra is making a choice not to say
[37:15] publicly because to do so could bring
[37:18] shame onto someone. It could possibly
[37:20] implicate someone. Definitely not
[37:22] something he wants to do. But, I can say
[37:24] that Isra would eventually come face to
[37:25] face with the people associated with
[37:27] this tragedy. So, we'll pause there and
[37:30] take a quick break.
[37:39] Welcome back to the Reincarnation
[37:40] Records. So, after Isra's first trip to
[37:42] visit the family that he remembers from
[37:44] a past life, he did go back home.
[37:46] >> He got some issues resolved.
[37:48] >> Remember that from the time he was born,
[37:50] he had a terrible fear of water.
[37:52] >> After they met with the previous
[37:53] parents, the day he came home, he was
[37:56] able to go to the shower.
[37:58] >> In our first two episodes, you met Carol
[38:00] Bowman who believes that when children
[38:02] talk about past life memories, they can
[38:04] recover from phobias and even heal
[38:06] physical ailments.
[38:07] >> he got some closure.
[38:09] >> But, he didn't completely forget about
[38:10] his last family, the one grieving TMR.
[38:12] In fact, he started visiting them every
[38:14] chance he could get. And with each
[38:16] visit, more details emerged that were
[38:17] difficult to explain away.
[38:18] >> So, after the first visit, I think maybe
[38:20] the next school or vacation, Isra goes
[38:23] back to Kandy and he meets up with one
[38:25] of his best friends who like shook
[38:27] hands.
[38:28] >> And this is remarkable. This old friend
[38:29] of TMR's goes to shake Isra's hand, but
[38:32] instead of Isra simply giving him the
[38:34] polite standard handshake, Isra, who's
[38:37] about 6 years old, launches into the
[38:39] secret handshake that TMR used to do
[38:42] with this friend. Something that there's
[38:44] no way Isra could have known.
[38:46] >> It's like a a unique handshake. You put
[38:49] two thumbs together like and you you
[38:51] turn the hand other way around and then
[38:54] it comes around and we hold the hand and
[38:57] like sort of a thing.
[38:58] >> So when you saw this old friend for the
[38:59] first time, you knew you didn't have to
[39:01] be re-
[39:03] taught the handshake, you already knew
[39:05] it?
[39:05] >> Yeah, very naturally I did with him.
[39:08] >> And the handshake was just the
[39:09] beginning. Over the visits that
[39:11] followed, Isra kept running into people
[39:13] from TMR's life.
[39:14] >> He went to his previous school when he
[39:16] was about 7 years old and he remembered
[39:18] the teachers, the cricket coach, things
[39:21] like that.
[39:22] >> And one thing I often hear about in
[39:23] these incredibly convincing cases is a
[39:26] strong emotion. And an example of this
[39:28] happened to Isra and it was actually
[39:29] Isra's old friend with whom he shared
[39:31] the handshake who thought it'd be kind
[39:32] of cool and interesting to show Isra old
[39:34] photos of their friends and classmates
[39:37] to see how Isra would react and what he
[39:38] might remember.
[39:39] >> He started showing some photo albums and
[39:42] in one of the albums he sort of like
[39:44] looked at the photos and kind of like
[39:46] dropped them or like the punched it.
[39:48] Like he didn't want to see it. He was
[39:49] like 6 or 7 years old.
[39:51] >> [music]
[39:52] >> And just to note, Dr. Ware Sacra
[39:53] interviewed a ton of these people for
[39:55] his paper.
[39:55] >> And the guy was saying that those are
[39:57] the photos of these guys who took him
[39:59] swimming that day. He had some type of
[40:02] reaction to seeing these guys. His
[40:04] sister said he just didn't want to look
[40:06] at the pictures of these kids.
[40:07] >> And as we touched on above, Isra seems
[40:09] to remember how he passed and who was
[40:11] there and his strong emotions were tied
[40:14] to these memories.
[40:14] >> When Isra was 9 years old, one of those
[40:17] friends who went swimming with him the
[40:20] day he died came to Isra's house with
[40:23] his wife.
[40:24] >> They came to visit because they could
[40:25] not get pregnant.
[40:26] >> [music]
[40:26] >> They felt that the situation that was
[40:28] shared that day and the two lives lost
[40:30] may have had an effect on their ability
[40:32] to bring life into the world. And they
[40:35] met with Isra in hopes that confronting
[40:37] their shared trauma, clearing the air
[40:39] about what happened, might help all of
[40:41] them move on.
[40:42] >> After he met him, then now they have
[40:44] three children. So uh we don't know like
[40:46] if there's any connection. The husband
[40:48] always says that the reason that I
[40:49] cannot get pregnant [music] is because I
[40:51] was somehow involved in a situation
[40:53] that, you know, a mom lost his child.
[40:57] >> There was one more thing about this case
[40:58] that is inexplicable. Something that
[41:00] I've been turning over in my brain for
[41:02] months. And here's this part of our
[41:04] interview. So, Isra, is there anything
[41:06] else that you
[41:07] remember? And I'm not just talking about
[41:09] from TMR's life, but maybe like right
[41:11] after he died.
[41:12] >> I don't know whether all this can be
[41:14] scientific or this is
[41:16] >> It doesn't matter.
[41:17] >> See, this is a logically debatable
[41:19] aspect.
[41:20] >> Isra was reticent to share because it
[41:22] couldn't be explained logically or
[41:24] scientifically.
[41:25] >> Logic breaks down right now. So, I think
[41:27] we're beyond that. So, you can just say
[41:28] what you think, you know.
[41:30] >> my point of view, logic and science are
[41:31] already difficult to apply to this case.
[41:34] But I'd be remiss if I left out parts of
[41:36] the story just because they sounded
[41:37] strange. In fact, there's a long history
[41:40] in research around the unexplained where
[41:42] people censor out the weirdest details
[41:44] because they're afraid that those
[41:46] details will make the whole story easier
[41:48] to dismiss. And I don't want to add to
[41:50] that history. And Dr. Wair Sager shares
[41:52] that same instinct.
[41:53] >> I wanted to put out everything I got to
[41:55] know from these people studying this
[41:58] case. Here you go, you can make up your
[42:00] mind. The day that he passed, that was
[42:03] the apparition.
[42:04] >> In case that was difficult to hear, he
[42:06] mentioned an apparition of TMR that
[42:08] happened the day he drowned.
[42:09] >> The day he drowned,
[42:11] one of his friends were going home after
[42:13] school. Let's say it's 2:00, the schools
[42:15] are done.
[42:16] So, he was going and his home was near
[42:18] this river.
[42:20] And he swears that he met Kilanga or TMR
[42:23] wearing the uniform going the opposite
[42:26] way. And he said hi to him.
[42:28] >> So, a classmate of TMR's said he saw TMR
[42:31] on the road while he was walking home
[42:32] from school, and that was around 2:00
[42:34] p.m.
[42:34] >> this friend, he went home. And 5:00 news
[42:37] says that TMR died, drowned like 9:00 or
[42:41] 10:00 in the morning. And [music] he's
[42:43] like, "No, that could not happen because
[42:45] I met him. I saw him."
[42:47] >> And as common in Sri Lanka at that time,
[42:49] TMR's body was brought around in a
[42:51] funeral procession [music] to the homes
[42:53] and friends of loved ones.
[42:54] >> At the funeral, his body was taken to
[42:56] his house.
[42:57] And his friend, he collapsed. It's just
[43:01] like this is unbelievable. How can you
[43:04] be dead? Because I met you.
[43:06] He did not believe that he was dead
[43:08] until he saw his body actually.
[43:11] >> Well, and Isra, do you remember after
[43:13] you passed, do you remember like seeing
[43:14] him on the road or anything like that
[43:16] from when you were more in like a spirit
[43:18] form?
[43:18] >> Yes. Did I notice that
[43:20] was not normal that I would say.
[43:24] >> Isra refers to TMR by his full name,
[43:26] Tilanga, and he starts by pointing to
[43:28] the trauma.
[43:29] >> Tilanga didn't knew that he was going to
[43:32] die or he his died.
[43:35] >> Yeah.
[43:36] >> I believe his
[43:38] uh his chest has hit on a rock, he might
[43:41] be unconscious.
[43:43] And he was walking in between
[43:46] >> Isra didn't know that he was dead.
[43:48] >> So, Isra, you're kind of saying that you
[43:50] or Tilanga, I guess, or both of you were
[43:52] in the in between. Like your
[43:54] consciousness just
[43:55] like got up and went about your day.
[43:57] >> What I do believe, since Tilanga doesn't
[43:59] knew, he
[44:01] he had been passed away. He tries to act
[44:04] as usual as he is.
[44:08] So, he had to go back to home.
[44:10] >> He was being motivated by the same fears
[44:13] that would have motivated him in life.
[44:15] And for many teenagers, that's your
[44:16] parents.
[44:17] >> Tilanga's father was a strict father who
[44:19] is putting rules and restrictions. So,
[44:22] he knew he had to be back at home after
[44:25] school.
[44:26] So, he kept that in his mind and walked
[44:29] to home as usual, not knowingly. He
[44:32] might think, "Oh my god, I had to go
[44:34] back home. Now it's the the time of
[44:37] school and yeah."
[44:37] >> So, just remember that TMR's body is
[44:40] either in or near the river, and Isra is
[44:42] talking about his spirit or
[44:44] consciousness going about its day.
[44:46] >> Basically unaware, right?
[44:49] >> Yeah.
[44:50] >> Isra remembers being an apparition, like
[44:52] a ghost. So, let that sink in. And his
[44:54] friend who swore he saw Isra wasn't
[44:56] crazy. Before ever even hearing this
[44:59] story himself, Isra had already told his
[45:01] sister Bonza that he remembered being on
[45:03] the road heading home that day and
[45:05] seeing his friend. Here's Dr. Jim
[45:07] Matlock, an anthropologist who's come by
[45:09] scores of cases like Isra's.
[45:10] >> About 20% of these cases with the
[45:12] children with the past life memories,
[45:14] they will have memories of the
[45:15] intermission. And often times these
[45:18] memories include what was done during
[45:21] the intermission. Sometimes they don't
[45:22] talk about the coming to the new
[45:23] parents, but often times they would talk
[45:25] about being in certain places. In in
[45:29] Asia, it's often in a realistic
[45:31] terrestrial setting. In the West, it's
[45:34] heaven. They talk about heaven and
[45:35] meeting Jesus, meeting God.
[45:37] >> Dr. Satwant Singh Sodhi at University of
[45:39] Virginia's Department of Perceptual
[45:40] Studies looked at the intermission time
[45:43] across roughly 1,600 solved cases in
[45:46] their database. And in this field,
[45:48] solved means a child gave enough
[45:50] specific information that researchers
[45:52] were able to identify a deceased person
[45:55] whose life matched what the child had
[45:56] been saying. And when the team looked
[45:58] across the strongest cases, they found
[46:00] something surprising. The gap between
[46:02] death and rebirth doesn't appear to be
[46:05] random.
[46:06] It changes depending on how expected or
[46:08] unexpected the death had been.
[46:10] >> There are five levels of unexpectedness.
[46:12] From like no expectation at all to
[46:16] they expected it a few days before, a
[46:18] month before. So, we have five levels of
[46:20] unexpectedness.
[46:21] >> So, like no expectation would be you're
[46:23] 6 years old, you're completely healthy,
[46:25] something awful happens and you die.
[46:27] >> Exactly. Like a gunshot, something like
[46:30] that. So, the most expected, which means
[46:34] the person was ill and they expected it
[46:36] to happen, the median intermission time
[46:38] is 21 months. For the most unexpected,
[46:42] like immediate death, the intermission
[46:44] time is 12 months.
[46:46] >> The most unexpected deaths correlate
[46:48] with an intermission period of 12
[46:50] months, which is the exact amount of
[46:52] time between T.M.R.'s death and Isra's
[46:54] birth. And Isra himself uses the word
[46:57] unexpected when describing TMR's death.
[46:59] He said TMR didn't even realize he was
[47:02] dead because it happened so suddenly.
[47:04] >> There's sometime missing. He might be
[47:06] somewhere else before he was born.
[47:08] >> And in the case of Isra, his memories
[47:10] from the intermission period aren't just
[47:12] the apparition thing that happened. His
[47:14] memories extend further into the period.
[47:16] >> Isra told me that he saw his mom like
[47:20] today like this life's mom and then he
[47:22] followed her. He said, "I chose this
[47:24] mom."
[47:24] >> And Jim B. Tucker has looked at enough
[47:26] cases to see that where a soul lands
[47:28] doesn't look random at all.
[47:30] >> What it implies is
[47:32] that there's not chance, right? What it
[47:35] implies is that the deceased are helping
[47:40] to determine where they are reborn.
[47:43] Did I let that sink in?
[47:44] >> TMR's mother is at the temple of Tooth
[47:47] grieving, begging for her son to come
[47:49] back. And down on the coast at the same
[47:51] time, Isra's mother is at her temple
[47:54] praying for a boy.
[47:59] >> Isra saw his mom having two girls,
[48:01] wanted a boy and she's praying she wants
[48:04] a boy and the previous mom's praying
[48:06] this boy be born somewhere else and come
[48:09] back to me.
[48:10] So, it's like really like amazing. Like
[48:13] I get goosebumps when I talk about this
[48:14] with people. Like that I mean maybe it's
[48:17] not a major coincidence but context I
[48:19] don't feel it's a coincidence.
[48:20] >> And whatever you make of those two
[48:22] prayers, what happened next is part of
[48:24] what makes this case so moving because
[48:26] the thing that Isra's family was most
[48:27] afraid of that they'd take him to Candy
[48:29] and somehow lose him to this other
[48:30] family never happened. And his big
[48:33] sister Bonza is a huge reason that
[48:35] things worked out the way they did. She
[48:37] was the first person who really listened
[48:39] to what he was saying and thought to
[48:40] write it down before anyone knew whether
[48:42] there was another family out there to
[48:44] find. She advocated for him to be taken
[48:46] to Candy and because of her persistence,
[48:49] Isra was able to find the family he'd
[48:51] been asking about since he could talk.
[48:53] And both of the women that he considers
[48:55] to be mom have become integral figures
[48:57] in this new extended family.
[48:59] >> My previous life mother and this
[49:01] mother's connection is very strong. They
[49:03] are like the same family.
[49:04] >> He grew up going back to Candy on school
[49:06] holidays. They folded into one family.
[49:09] And when I asked him how he maintains
[49:10] that, two mothers, two lives, one of
[49:12] him, he made it sound really easy.
[49:15] >> Cuz that's
[49:16] like the same soul, same personality,
[49:19] just that they have shifted the body.
[49:21] >> He says he has the same soul, same
[49:23] personality, same love and loyalty to
[49:25] both mothers. He just has a different
[49:27] body.
[49:28] >> I'm widely connected to the entire
[49:30] network that my previous life's person
[49:32] had.
[49:33] >> He said he's widely connected to the
[49:34] entire network of friends and family who
[49:36] were in his past life. And that brings
[49:38] me back to Carol Bowman and the question
[49:40] she posed at the very beginning of this
[49:42] season. If past life memories are real,
[49:45] can confronting them be healing? Because
[49:46] for Isra, it wasn't just about losing
[49:48] his fear of water. He went back and
[49:50] found the family he'd been longing for.
[49:52] He confronted people connected to that
[49:54] day and somehow made peace with a life
[49:56] that seemed to have ended in fear,
[49:58] guilt, and possibly even anger. And
[50:00] unlike some of the stories we heard last
[50:01] episode, where children seemed driven by
[50:03] anger and revenge, Isra folded both of
[50:06] his lives into one. And then there was
[50:08] the boy who went swimming with T.M.R.
[50:09] the day that he died, who was not able
[50:11] to have children when he got married
[50:13] until he went to visit 9-year-old Isra
[50:15] and talked through what happened. And
[50:16] pretty soon after that visit, went on to
[50:18] have children. And that could obviously
[50:20] be totally tied to luck or coincidence
[50:22] or it's psychosomatic or it might have
[50:23] nothing at all to do with Isra. But just
[50:26] for a thought exercise, let's say it
[50:27] does. And that makes me wonder if Carol
[50:29] Bowman's idea about healing might be
[50:31] even bigger than she postulated. What if
[50:33] confronting these memories doesn't just
[50:35] heal the child who has them, but what if
[50:37] forgiveness and reconciliation or
[50:39] closure creates ripples outward through
[50:41] families, relationships, maybe even
[50:42] across lives?
[50:43] >> [music]
[50:43] >> And I have no idea how you would ever
[50:45] prove something like that. But in Isra's
[50:47] story, healing doesn't seem to belong to
[50:49] just one person. It seems to have
[50:50] spread. And as far as Dr. Weerasinghe's
[50:53] success in the essay contest that
[50:54] started this whole thing, he didn't win,
[50:56] but he was awarded an honorable mention.
[50:58] And along the way, this careful Harvard
[51:00] neuroscientist certainly [music] inched
[51:01] over to belief in this case.
[51:03] >> I I'm convinced, to tell you the truth,
[51:05] I'm convinced with this, uh,
[51:06] >> There is so much about Estra's case that
[51:08] I'm still turning over in my head. From
[51:10] [music] his memories and the map that he
[51:12] drew and the birth defect, the fear of
[51:14] water that disappeared after he went to
[51:16] Kandy, the strange intermission period
[51:18] memories,
[51:19] and the fact that two mothers on
[51:21] different sides of Sri Lanka
[51:23] each were praying for a boy.
[51:25] But there's another part of the story
[51:26] that opens an entirely different door.
[51:28] Because Estra didn't just seem to
[51:29] remember TMR's life, he seems to still
[51:32] have TMR's abilities and talents, be it
[51:35] cricket or Kandyan dancing or acting. In
[51:37] some ways, he seemed to pick up where
[51:39] TMR left off, even carrying forward some
[51:42] of the same goals and dreams for his
[51:44] life.
[51:45] >> In the previous life, uh, Thelanga was
[51:48] an actor.
[51:49] >> Thelanga won different national awards
[51:51] in children's [music] drama. In this
[51:52] life, I was fortunate to win jury awards
[51:56] from one of the prestigious awarding
[51:58] ceremony for the television drama.
[52:01] >> They both won prestigious awards and
[52:02] national recognition [music] for youth
[52:04] drama.
[52:05] >> The similarity of what I had in my last
[52:08] life, the capacity of acting, really has
[52:10] been converted to make myself even
[52:12] sharper in this life.
[52:14] >> So, you're saying that you don't feel
[52:15] like you had to start from scratch with
[52:17] your acting skills, like you already had
[52:19] a a whole lifetime before to hone your
[52:20] talent.
[52:21] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[52:22] >> So, that raises a question I hadn't
[52:24] really considered before this season.
[52:25] Most of us have heard stories of
[52:27] prodigies and savants who just arrive in
[52:29] the world knowing how to do something
[52:31] that they were never taught or exposed
[52:32] to. And actually, in our second season,
[52:34] the Consciousness Cassettes, we explored
[52:37] the possibility that some [music]
[52:38] extraordinary abilities may come from
[52:40] somewhere beyond the brain, like they
[52:41] may be downloaded from an informational
[52:43] field. But what if, in some of these
[52:45] cases, talents [music] and knowledge are
[52:47] coming from somewhere much more
[52:49] specific? What if they're being carried
[52:51] over from a past life?
[52:53] >> We never had to teach him how to swing
[52:54] the bat, how to catch the ball. He just
[52:57] did it.
[52:57] >> It is interesting when prodigies start
[52:59] at an early age saying I was once
[53:01] someone else.
[53:02] >> And next week we're exploring two
[53:04] remarkable cases that force us to ask
[53:06] [music] that exact question. What
[53:08] happens when talents cross over? He
[53:10] started saying things like, "I used to
[53:12] be tall. I was a tall baseball player."
[53:16] >> [music]
[53:16] >> Is it possible that some prodigies might
[53:18] be remembering something from a previous
[53:20] life? When I showed him the picture of
[53:22] the 1927 Yankees, he said, "That's me."
[53:25] That's what we're exploring next. Tune
[53:27] in next week as we explore prodigies and
[53:29] past lives.
[53:33] Thank you to the small team who made
[53:35] this season possible. Our amazing
[53:36] producer, Cooper Maue. Our audio mix and
[53:38] sound design was by Jeremy Cole. Music
[53:41] was by Mike Curbino. My right hand was
[53:43] Selena Kennedy. And I'm Cain Dickens,
[53:45] your executive producer, writer, editor,
[53:47] and [music] host. And if you haven't
[53:49] listened to our last season of the
[53:50] podcast, The Consciousness Cassettes, I
[53:52] highly recommend you do so as it [music]
[53:53] will give even more context to this
[53:55] season. And if you want to go in deeper,
[53:57] subscribe to our backstage pass [music]
[53:59] by visiting our website. With it, you'll
[54:01] unlock access to bonus content,
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[54:20] This is The Reincarnation Records from
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