Transcript
[0:00] I've once heard you say that the world
[0:02] is divided into two types of people.
[0:06] Those who have control of their
[0:08] autonomic nervous system and those who
[0:11] don't. Which group do you fall into?
[0:15] Well, that's a great place to start and
[0:17] and that's definitely the red thread um
[0:20] of aligned, you know, is is this idea
[0:22] that when we think about performance and
[0:25] we think about health, it is very much
[0:28] constrained by our capacity. And I guess
[0:32] the theory or the thesis of of the book
[0:34] is that we build capacity by building a
[0:37] robust autonomic nervous system.
[0:40] And and I suppose when we think about
[0:42] the world being divided in two, it's
[0:44] it's folks who have are able to respond
[0:48] in a way that is aligned with who they
[0:50] want to be in the world, right? And it's
[0:52] very difficult to do that when you have
[0:54] a disregulated nervous system.
[0:58] >> So I like to think that over the course
[1:00] of my life, I've arrived at a place
[1:02] where I'm able to have more control over
[1:05] my state. You know, I understand when I
[1:08] am drifting from who I want to be in the
[1:11] world. When I feel that dissonance
[1:12] bubble up, I don't just let it fester. I
[1:16] I take some action and I course correct,
[1:18] right? And I bring myself back into a
[1:20] regulated state. And and I think we can
[1:22] step back even further when we think
[1:24] about stress and exhaustion and
[1:27] >> aging even, you know, that those are
[1:30] hallmarks of a disregulated nervous
[1:33] system. And I think the literature, you
[1:35] know, there's a really great opinion
[1:36] piece that was published in December of
[1:38] of 2025
[1:40] where they look at the theory of aging
[1:43] and basically all the hallmarks of aging
[1:46] that we we consider, you know, telmir
[1:48] attrition and genomic instability and
[1:51] mitochondrial dysfunction, inflammation,
[1:53] all of these are actually downstream of
[1:56] a disregulated autonomic nervous system.
[1:59] >> Yeah. So I guess the idea is if we can
[2:02] bring ourselves back into balance, if we
[2:05] are able to effectively toggle in
[2:07] between stress activation and
[2:11] deactivation and and have a a level of
[2:14] conscious awareness, we can, I guess,
[2:16] have more control over the trajectory of
[2:18] our health and certainly over our
[2:21] performance levels. That's the case I
[2:23] make in in the book. And and a lot of
[2:25] that comes down to how we manage our
[2:28] downtime, how we think about recovery.
[2:31] >> Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned the
[2:32] health and performance.
[2:35] >> For me, it goes even further than that.
[2:38] A wellmanaged, a well- reggulated
[2:41] autonomic nervous system.
[2:44] I'm not sure there's anything more
[2:45] important that we can focus on because
[2:48] yeah, the downstream of that is better
[2:50] health,
[2:51] >> right?
[2:51] >> Better longevity,
[2:52] >> better performance,
[2:54] But it's also how we are. Our
[2:56] relationships with our partner, with our
[2:58] children, with our colleagues.
[3:01] >> How many of us are reactive?
[3:05] >> Mhm.
[3:06] >> These days, you know, we're we're not
[3:08] bringing our best selves to our
[3:10] relationships
[3:11] >> and it's all downstream from a
[3:14] disregulated autonomic nervous system.
[3:16] So, can you explain in your words
[3:18] >> what is an autonomic nervous system?
[3:21] >> Um, and then maybe comment on what I've
[3:23] just said. Yeah. Yeah. So you have the
[3:25] central nervous system which is made up
[3:26] of the brain and the spinal cords. They
[3:28] have the peripheral nervous system which
[3:29] is part of that is the autonomic nervous
[3:31] system. And the autonomic nervous system
[3:33] has two branches, the parasympathetic
[3:36] and the sympathetic. And they're both
[3:38] competing to send signals to the heart.
[3:40] The the more regulated you are, the more
[3:42] responsive your heart is going to be to
[3:44] the demands of the autonomic nervous
[3:46] system.
[3:48] And so
[3:50] when and you can imagine a scenario when
[3:52] your heart no longer becomes responsive
[3:54] to the demands of the outer nervous
[3:56] system, you're dead.
[3:57] >> Yeah.
[3:58] >> You know, or or you are debilitated to a
[4:00] degree where you can't respond
[4:02] effectively to external stress.
[4:04] >> Mhm.
[4:05] >> And I think that's the opportunity is to
[4:07] be able to respond just all the things
[4:09] that you've just outlined beautifully.
[4:11] Those are the things that we want to be
[4:13] able to respond and engage with
[4:16] >> in a in a way that feels good to us, you
[4:19] know, and and in order to kind of get to
[4:22] a place of good, what are the behaviors,
[4:25] the foundational stuff that allow me to
[4:28] perform, which is really an expression
[4:30] of capacity. So when we zoom out, we're
[4:33] like, how do we actually build capacity?
[4:34] How do we build a rob a robust autonomic
[4:36] nervous system? And a lot of those
[4:38] things are the stuff that's talked about
[4:40] a lot. You know, sleep and circadian
[4:41] alignment, um, you know, appropriate
[4:44] training, um, appropriate levels of
[4:45] rest, understanding stress and rest at a
[4:48] very foundational level. And that's kind
[4:49] of the first half of the book. And then
[4:51] I guess the second part of the book is
[4:53] is really more of how do we think about
[4:55] time and expectations, attachments,
[4:57] right? Memory, right? Like that those
[4:59] are things that we we don't consider
[5:00] those as dimensions that influence how
[5:03] we show up in the world, right? that
[5:05] that actually originate in the autonomic
[5:07] nervous system.
[5:07] >> Yeah. One one of the things I've always
[5:09] loved about your work and I particularly
[5:11] like about the new book Aligned
[5:14] is
[5:16] the fact that you're covering both
[5:18] physiology and psychology.
[5:22] >> And I guess I'm biased. I like that
[5:24] because that's how I see the human body.
[5:27] I don't think you can actually look at
[5:28] one without the other. And I think when
[5:30] we try and do that, we really struggle.
[5:33] So I know with health for example,
[5:36] >> you know, health and wellbeing is all
[5:37] the rage these days. You know, there's
[5:39] many podcasts like this one where we're
[5:40] trying to share
[5:42] >> positive empowering information.
[5:45] >> But the problem is I found that often
[5:48] the behaviors we want to do, let's say,
[5:51] you know, go for daily walks, reduce how
[5:54] much sugar we're having, whatever it
[5:55] might be,
[5:57] >> they're often downstream from our
[5:59] mindset and the way we feel about the
[6:01] world. So if
[6:04] >> things aren't going well and we've taken
[6:05] a very negative view on how our life is,
[6:09] >> well, you're much more likely to want to
[6:11] soothe your internal discomfort with
[6:14] sugar and ice cream and alcohol. So we
[6:16] can keep telling you about the dangers
[6:18] of excess sugar and excess alcohol,
[6:20] right?
[6:21] >> But perhaps you need to address the
[6:24] psychology first and that will then
[6:27] automatically change those behaviors.
[6:29] >> Do you know what I mean?
[6:30] >> Yeah. For sure. I you know I go back and
[6:32] forth on this all the time. I I
[6:34] sometimes feel like the entry point is
[6:35] through the physiology, right? And and I
[6:38] think there's some truth to that, but
[6:39] but you you land on a really important
[6:41] point and and I think it's it's not even
[6:44] how we see the world, it's how we see
[6:46] ourselves.
[6:47] And I think a lot of the self-sabotage
[6:50] that happens and I and I open the the
[6:52] book
[6:54] about the story of my mother, you know,
[6:56] and and you know, just witnessing her um
[7:01] essentially kill herself over the course
[7:03] of her life by abusing alcohol. She did
[7:05] not love herself. She did not have
[7:08] compassion toward herself. Right? And I
[7:10] think I think it that is the place to
[7:12] start is you have to figure out okay
[7:15] what is what does loving myself actually
[7:17] look like? How do I need to treat my
[7:18] body? How do I need to treat my mind?
[7:21] you know and and I think all the things
[7:24] that you talked about reducing sugar and
[7:25] you know those those are those are I
[7:28] call them kind of parasympathetic fixes
[7:29] right we've got so if we go back to the
[7:31] autonomic nervous system
[7:33] >> okay
[7:34] >> when we feel that internal tension right
[7:37] that is usually a direct comment on
[7:40] something that matters to you instead of
[7:43] thinking about the thing that matters to
[7:45] us because it might be a little
[7:46] uncomfortable we soothe it with the food
[7:50] or scrolling or
[7:53] >> yeah,
[7:53] >> you know, we we basically try to mute
[7:55] that signal.
[7:57] >> And I think that's the call to action is
[7:59] we need to actually feel that signal. We
[8:03] need to try to understand it, get
[8:05] curious about it, right? And and figure
[8:08] out, okay, do I need to take action
[8:10] here?
[8:11] >> Yeah.
[8:11] >> Is is there an action that's required of
[8:13] me or do I let it go? But I think just
[8:16] that conscious awareness of like, okay,
[8:20] this is a moment where I feel that
[8:22] dissonance, that tension, what am I
[8:25] going to do about it?
[8:26] >> Mhm.
[8:27] >> And I think just that small conversation
[8:30] with yourself puts you in a seat of
[8:33] agency as opposed to just allowing life
[8:36] to happen to you. Yeah, it it's for for
[8:40] me this the secret to this long-term
[8:43] sustainable change that actually we're
[8:45] all looking for, but no one's really
[8:47] looking for a quick fix.
[8:49] >> We might think we are, but ultimately we
[8:51] want proper transformation.
[8:53] >> Totally.
[8:54] >> You kind of got to do the work to know
[8:56] yourself, understand yourself, and I
[8:58] also like you have this, you know,
[9:01] >> try to figure out is it body first then
[9:03] mind? Is it mind first and then body? Uh
[9:05] I remember many years ago friend of mine
[9:07] Dallas Hartwick who uh created the whole
[9:09] 30 with his oh with Melissa many many
[9:12] years ago. I think their first book was
[9:14] it starts with food from recollection
[9:16] many many years ago.
[9:18] >> I remember I remember was at a
[9:19] conference with Dallas and I remember
[9:20] talking to him saying
[9:22] >> mate
[9:23] >> it doesn't start with food for everyone.
[9:26] Yes.
[9:26] >> Right.
[9:27] >> We've all got different entry points.
[9:29] Yes. And for some people, yeah, it does
[9:31] start with food and it does start with
[9:32] physiology, but for some people, their
[9:35] entry point is with psychology, and
[9:37] that's okay as well.
[9:39] >> Exactly. And I and that's kind of how I
[9:41] structured the book, like and and how
[9:43] there's a workbook at the end. And it it
[9:45] basically takes you chapter by chapter.
[9:47] And for some folks, it might be just
[9:50] understanding the relationship between
[9:51] stress and rest. You know, that they
[9:53] have this demand mismatch in their life
[9:56] that is so egregious, right? That might
[9:58] be where they start. Or it might be they
[10:01] view the world they're they're they're
[10:03] they have unresolved trauma and they
[10:05] need to really heal. And what does that
[10:07] healing process look like? That might be
[10:09] their entry point. Right. To your point,
[10:10] we all have the thing that is kind of I
[10:14] think at the at the at the basic level
[10:17] is keeping us from being that version of
[10:19] ourel that we aspire to be, you know,
[10:22] and and recognizing what is holding us
[10:25] back is the most beautiful source of
[10:27] insight we can have, right? And then
[10:29] just figuring out, okay, if this is the
[10:31] thing that's holding me back,
[10:33] >> how do I how do I make that leap? Right?
[10:36] And I I think you said it like
[10:37] transformation
[10:39] and in the opening of the book um
[10:41] Rebecca Solstus she wrote this this this
[10:43] a beautiful book on on on just this
[10:46] notion of of transfer transformation and
[10:48] and she says that we are often scared of
[10:51] transformation because we don't actually
[10:53] know what's on the other side
[10:55] >> and that in itself is a source of
[10:57] insight okay am I scared of what that
[10:59] change could mean in terms of how it
[11:01] might shift my partnerships or you know
[11:03] my my my relationship with my partner or
[11:05] how It might maybe I I do this work and
[11:08] realize that the job I'm in is not the
[11:10] job I want to be in, you know, but I've
[11:12] got to pay bills. And you know, there's
[11:14] a little bit of a reckoning that comes
[11:15] with with change. And I think that fear
[11:18] is sometimes what holds holds people
[11:19] back.
[11:20] >> But I think that's part of the
[11:21] invitation of this book is like you got
[11:24] to just make the leap.
[11:25] >> Yeah. That there's a beautiful chapter
[11:27] um where you talk about trust and fear
[11:30] >> and from recollection
[11:32] you talk about certainty there. this
[11:34] this this idea that certainty is an
[11:38] illusion, right? We want to be certain
[11:40] of the outcome before we make a change,
[11:44] >> but you can't be.
[11:45] >> Yeah.
[11:45] >> Cuz you've never been there before,
[11:47] right? And the version of you who might
[11:49] be trying this time is different from
[11:50] the version of you who tried 5 years
[11:51] ago.
[11:52] >> So, you got to get away from this idea
[11:55] of certainty. And I think I remember
[11:57] right at the start of the question I
[11:58] asked you was about this this this word
[12:00] control of their autonomic nervous
[12:02] system.
[12:03] That word control I have really thought
[12:05] about and meditated on for years and and
[12:07] and I' I'd welcome your view on this.
[12:11] >> The way I see control is internal
[12:15] control versus external control.
[12:18] >> So I can't control the external world.
[12:21] >> Whether it's going to rain or sun, you
[12:24] know, or whether someone's going to cut
[12:25] me up or not, I can't control that. But
[12:28] with enough intention
[12:30] >> and with enough work,
[12:33] >> I can actually learn how to control my
[12:36] internal environment. Right? That's what
[12:38] you're talking about. Yeah.
[12:39] >> Have you got control of your autonomic
[12:40] nervous system? Basically, another put
[12:42] it another way.
[12:43] >> Are you able to exercise control over
[12:47] your internal environment or not? That's
[12:49] kind of what it comes down to, doesn't
[12:50] it?
[12:50] >> For sure. Yes. Exactly. And and I think
[12:54] when you have control of your internal
[12:56] state and you can um
[12:58] >> bring yourself back into balance,
[13:02] it it changes how you move through the
[13:05] world, right? It gives you a sense of
[13:07] agency, I think, is maybe is is I think
[13:09] the synonym to kind of control in in a
[13:11] way. And I think control comes with a
[13:12] lot of baggage, right? Certainly does
[13:14] for me. Um, I use it in the in the book,
[13:17] but but I but I think I'm careful to to
[13:19] make sure people understand that this is
[13:21] really at the end of the day about
[13:22] agency. Yeah. Having agency over your
[13:24] internal landscape, you know, and I open
[13:26] that chapter, trust and fear, with a
[13:28] poem that I wrote called Relinquishing.
[13:30] >> Beautiful.
[13:31] >> And thank you. And I but but I you know
[13:33] I I wrote that because of this tension I
[13:37] have in my own life around uncertainty
[13:40] and that and and I write in that poem
[13:43] that that's that's probably the the the
[13:46] price or the the cost of the beauty
[13:48] right is is this uncertainty and when we
[13:51] shift our lens that
[13:52] >> uncertainty is kind of a gift in in a
[13:54] lot of ways it's it it brings
[13:56] spontaneity right it it's we don't know
[13:58] what's going to happen next right so all
[14:00] we can really do is focus on the here
[14:03] and now. It it releases us. It
[14:05] relinquishes it relinquishes us of that
[14:08] pressure of thinking about what's
[14:10] happening next. Right. And and then
[14:12] you're left all you're left with is just
[14:14] right now. And I I I don't know that
[14:17] there's really anything more freeing.
[14:19] >> Yeah. I love it. I'm I'm there's so many
[14:22] rabbit holes I want to go down because
[14:23] you know that thing there, you know, you
[14:25] just mentioned then that you have this
[14:26] uh time framework later on and E is
[14:29] expectation. And I've been thinking a
[14:31] lot about
[14:32] >> how much expectations can sabotage our
[14:35] lives and get in the way. You know, you
[14:37] go to,
[14:38] >> I don't know, simple example, you go to
[14:40] the restaurant once and you have a great
[14:42] meal, [laughter]
[14:43] >> it it genuinely is almost never as good
[14:48] the second time because what's changed?
[14:49] Well, even if they cook it in exactly
[14:51] the same way, [laughter] which is
[14:53] probably impossible anyway,
[14:54] >> it's the ambiance, it's the the smells,
[14:56] it's the where you're sitting. You're
[14:58] going in now with an expectation. Oh my
[15:00] god, that spaghetti bolognese was
[15:02] phenomenal. Like, hey guys, come along.
[15:04] >> I know
[15:04] >> you can't wait. Right. So, let let me
[15:06] just park that cuz I I want to go there,
[15:08] but I want to also ground people in um
[15:13] >> some some kind of simple things that
[15:14] they can think about. Right. So, so far
[15:16] we're talking about this fact that
[15:19] >> the health of your autonomic nervous
[15:21] system,
[15:22] >> the integrity of it is really important
[15:24] for health, longevity, performance,
[15:26] whatever you want. and your
[15:27] relationships, right? And we've said
[15:30] that you can enter to improve the
[15:34] function of the ANS, the autonomic
[15:35] nervous system,
[15:37] >> through physical health or through
[15:40] mindset and psychology, right?
[15:41] [clears throat]
[15:42] >> You published a paper, I think a couple
[15:43] of years ago about these four key
[15:45] behaviors
[15:47] >> that help us to help our autonomic
[15:49] nervous system. So
[15:50] >> yeah, it it increased parasympathetic
[15:52] tone. Tell us about respiratory. Tell us
[15:54] about that paper because I think what I
[15:56] love about these four behaviors is that
[15:57] they are completely free of charge for
[16:00] people
[16:00] >> democratically available and free.
[16:02] >> Exactly. So let's talk about that.
[16:04] >> And this paper it was published in sleep
[16:06] um which is a you know a premier journal
[16:08] in in the the field of sleep medicine
[16:10] and um so it was really exciting. it was
[16:12] received I think uh really well and
[16:15] because that these were just free
[16:17] behaviors you know and and I and to be
[16:19] able to kind of quantify the impact of
[16:21] the behaviors was was exciting and
[16:23] basically what I did is I put out a
[16:25] challenge to all the members on the Woot
[16:27] platform I said you know if you're
[16:29] interested in improving your autonomic
[16:32] nervous system and um if you're
[16:34] interested in maybe improving your sleep
[16:36] I want you to give these four behaviors
[16:38] a try. So, it basically invited them
[16:40] into this challenge and we had 39,000
[16:43] people sign up for this challenge. Um,
[16:46] and I just basically gave them the
[16:48] protocol for each behavior. And I said,
[16:51] "You can do all of them. You can do one
[16:52] of them. Try to do it as consistently as
[16:55] possible." And one was timerestricted
[16:57] eating. Um, which is basically just
[16:59] consolidating your calories during the
[17:01] daylight. So, I said just pick 12 hours
[17:03] where you can eat all of your food and
[17:05] just try to do that consistently. So,
[17:07] not even 10 or 8 hours. Very manageable
[17:09] for most people. A 12hour eating window.
[17:12] >> Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, 7 to 7.
[17:13] That's, you know, that really gives you
[17:14] a nice chunk of time to get your
[17:16] calories in. Most Americans are eating
[17:19] around 15 hours across the day, right?
[17:22] Usually right up to bedtime,
[17:24] >> which has, you know, there's a
[17:25] thermulatory effect of food, but there's
[17:27] also circadian component. So, there's
[17:29] kind of two competing issues that um
[17:33] >> end having end up having impact on your
[17:35] sleep and recovery. Um but yeah, so
[17:38] basically 12-hour window, you want to
[17:39] give yourself um I recommended a 2 to
[17:41] three hour buffer between your last
[17:43] calorie and when you intend to sleep. Um
[17:45] so if it's 8 to 8, you know, just kind
[17:46] of thinking about that in in context of
[17:48] your bedtime. Um and then the second
[17:51] behavior was morning sunlight. So just
[17:54] getting out, I said a minimum of five
[17:56] minutes. Um so again, really doable, but
[17:58] just getting outside.
[18:00] >> Is that within 20 minutes of waking up?
[18:01] >> Within 20. That was the protocol. Yeah.
[18:03] So within 20 minutes of waking up,
[18:05] getting outside for at least 5 minutes.
[18:07] Um, but if you could swing 20.
[18:09] >> Can I just clarify something? Sorry to
[18:10] interrupt.
[18:12] >> Um, initially you said 5 minutes of
[18:14] sunlight. Then you said outside and I
[18:16] know people will be thinking
[18:18] >> especially, you know, yes, in the UK
[18:20] we've had a phenomenal summer, but
[18:22] autumn is it's about to get dark. It's
[18:23] well and truly here.
[18:25] >> So, is it sunlight? Is it natural light?
[18:28] Is is a cloudy day. Okay.
[18:30] >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for clarifying.
[18:32] Natural light is what the protocol
[18:33] recommended. So just it doesn't need to
[18:35] be sunny, cloudy, like just getting
[18:37] outside, feeling the temperature on your
[18:41] skin, um letting your eyes kind of look
[18:44] up at the the sky, you know, just really
[18:46] just basic simple stuff that helps set
[18:48] our circadian rhythm. And that basically
[18:51] then, you know, it it just cortisol like
[18:53] all the hormones that are associated
[18:55] with being awake kind of then know what
[18:57] to do, right? You're giving your body
[18:59] information. And light is one of the
[19:00] strongest cues that we can that our body
[19:04] is so desperate to have. So it
[19:07] understands what it needs to do, right?
[19:09] It basically reduces the confusion in
[19:11] your body when it gets that signal
[19:13] within 20 minutes of waking up. It knows
[19:15] it's time to be alert, it's time to be
[19:17] awake. It also then um will help your
[19:20] body understand when it needs to release
[19:21] melatonin. So a lot of folks don't
[19:23] associate that morning sunlight with
[19:25] actually what's happening maybe 16 hours
[19:27] later which is that that release of
[19:29] melatonin which is also so critical for
[19:31] health absolutely for sleep but also as
[19:34] a really powerful antioxidant. So that
[19:36] morning sunlight was really huge um and
[19:39] or morning light I should say and if
[19:41] it's if it's still dark out when you
[19:43] wake up which for a lot of us in these
[19:44] northern latitudes that's the case bathe
[19:47] yourself in artificial light. It's just
[19:49] that light signal is is really what
[19:50] we're after here. Interestingly, one
[19:52] thing I've changed over the last year,
[19:54] and this is probably
[19:57] since um I spent five days in uh in
[20:01] Washington State with with this uh
[20:04] functional optometrist called Dr. Bryce
[20:06] Applebound. We did five days of intense
[20:08] training and I improved various aspects
[20:11] of my eyesight and vision. [gasps]
[20:13] >> It it was it was just incredible.
[20:15] >> Wow.
[20:17] But one of the things I really
[20:18] understood from talking to him is, you
[20:21] know, good practices when um when
[20:25] reading,
[20:26] >> you know, and all kinds of things. And I
[20:27] I I because I get up so early
[20:29] >> and in the autumn and winter, it will be
[20:31] pitch black.
[20:32] >> Yes.
[20:33] >> And [laughter] I'll keep it nice and
[20:34] dark, right? I'll keep a nice little
[20:36] side lamp on, make my coffee, I'll sit
[20:38] there, I'll read,
[20:40] >> and I like that. But one thing I I did
[20:42] change is thought actually I'm not sure
[20:44] this is the best thing for my eyes
[20:45] actually in the morning. So now when I
[20:46] come down is the kitchen.
[20:48] >> Everyone's asleep upstairs so it doesn't
[20:49] affect I just shove on all the lights
[20:51] and I'm I've got real bright lights. So
[20:53] that's kind of interesting.
[20:54] >> I've had a cuz I love that cozy morning
[20:56] too but I it isn't great.
[20:58] >> As many of you know when glucose is
[21:01] relatively stable you feel better
[21:03] daytoday with steadier energy, mood and
[21:06] focus. But over time, unstable and
[21:09] elevated glucose can also impair your
[21:12] metabolic health and increase the risk
[21:14] of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular
[21:17] disease. Now, globally, more than 760
[21:21] million adults are thought to have
[21:24] pre-diabetes,
[21:25] many without symptoms or a diagnosis.
[21:28] And the problem is that our health care
[21:31] system often waits until you get sick
[21:34] before taking action. when we should
[21:37] take a proactive approach to prevent
[21:39] problems before they start. Now, many of
[21:42] us don't have access to our own glucose
[21:44] data and therefore don't have clear
[21:46] feedback on how our everyday choices
[21:49] impact our glucose. That's where Lingo
[21:52] by Abbott comes in. Lingo is a bio
[21:56] sensor and app that helps you see how
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[22:01] affect your glucose in real time. So you
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[22:06] habits in the moment. With Lingo, you
[22:09] can get to know your glucose to build
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[22:15] For listeners in the US and the UK,
[22:18] Lingo by Abbott is offering an exclusive
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[22:34] >> So definitely bright light. Yeah. And
[22:35] and turning on even if it's dark and but
[22:37] that's when you want to wake up.
[22:39] >> Eating light exposure. Number two.
[22:41] What's number three?
[22:42] >> The other one was uh breathing. So um so
[22:45] the idea that so basically I was trying
[22:47] to create conditions that would allow
[22:50] people to get to a more stable sleepwake
[22:52] time. Okay. So that's kind of in the
[22:54] background what I was really trying to
[22:56] do with these behaviors is will this
[22:58] actually help people fall asleep at a
[23:00] more regular time. That was my
[23:02] hypothesis going in that if they could
[23:04] engage in these kind of circadian type
[23:06] behaviors, sleep facilitating type
[23:08] behaviors, um would that actually help
[23:11] stabilize their sleepwake time? So I'll
[23:12] come back to that but so breathing
[23:15] negative stress accumulation throughout
[23:16] the day is one of the biggest uh
[23:19] problems with regard to sleep onset and
[23:22] being able to stay asleep when we are
[23:24] exhibiting or experiencing a lot of um I
[23:27] call it kind of unanswered stress
[23:29] throughout the day that will negatively
[23:32] impact our sleep right and I we've all
[23:34] experienced that right when we are
[23:35] appraising and I have another paper
[23:37] published in emotion where we looked at
[23:38] threat and challenge if you appraise
[23:39] your day as threatening um versus
[23:42] challenging it your sleep quality will
[23:44] be uh impaired
[23:46] >> mindset affecting physiology.
[23:49] >> Oh, this is the first paper to show.
[23:50] Yeah, it we published an emotion. It is
[23:52] a phenomenal experiment. So, I'll go I
[23:54] can go back to that if you want, but
[23:56] slowpaced breathing is [snorts]
[23:57] throughout the day. So, basically just
[23:59] said, you know, throughout the day after
[24:00] you experience a bout of stress, good or
[24:02] bad, you know, don't worry about
[24:04] labeling it. Your body doesn't even know
[24:05] if it's good or bad really. Um it's
[24:08] stress is stress, right? you're
[24:09] activating the the autonomic nervous
[24:11] system. So I said anytime your heart
[24:12] rate is increasing, you're activating
[24:14] the nervous system. Um you want to map
[24:16] that with appropriate levels of rest. So
[24:18] just engage in some slow pace breathing.
[24:20] Bring your heart rate down actively in
[24:23] [snorts] through the nose, out through
[24:24] the nose, and just do that for a minute
[24:26] or so. I also gave them the
[24:28] physiological sigh, which we know helps
[24:30] reduce anxiety up to 5 hours after the
[24:33] protocol.
[24:33] >> Can you just explain what that is? So
[24:35] the physiological side, yep, is
[24:36] basically a double inhale followed by an
[24:38] extended exhale.
[24:39] >> Nose or mouth, doesn't it matter?
[24:43] >> In through the nose, double in through
[24:44] the nose, out through the mouth.
[24:46] [snorts]
[24:47] >> Exactly. You let the breath just fall
[24:48] out. And you can do, you know, the the
[24:52] published work is 5 minutes of the
[24:54] physiology is a very long time. Um I
[24:57] tell folks, I'm just like even 30
[24:58] seconds, a minute, 90 seconds, whatever
[25:00] you can do. Um the protocol I said at
[25:02] least a minute um up to five um of just
[25:06] this slow pace breathing and I said if
[25:08] they can prioritize one of this the slow
[25:10] pace right when they get into bed to
[25:13] bring the heart down that's also a great
[25:16] signal that your body feels safe and it
[25:18] can drop into those deeper stages of
[25:20] sleep faster.
[25:22] >> So that was the sec the third one and
[25:24] then the final one was zone two. So, the
[25:27] reason why I put zone 2 training in, and
[25:29] you can row, you can swim, you can walk,
[25:32] you can jog, depending on your fitness
[25:34] level, whatever zone 2 is for you,
[25:37] engage at least 30 minutes up to an
[25:40] hour. Um, and what we see in the data,
[25:43] and I put this in the book, too, is that
[25:45] I don't even call zone 2 exercise.
[25:48] >> I call it it's a recovery modality.
[25:50] bonus if you're outside because that
[25:53] contrast between day and night is so so
[25:56] important. Um so those are the four
[25:59] behaviors and indeed what we ended up
[26:00] seeing is that the folks that engaged in
[26:02] these behaviors saw improvements in
[26:04] sleepwake consistency
[26:06] and then which so that was the mediator
[26:09] and and then and basically so for those
[26:11] folks who improved their sleepwake
[26:12] consistency they we saw improvements in
[26:14] their cardiorespiratory fitness um and
[26:17] that was measured by uh their resting
[26:19] heart rate and then we also saw
[26:20] improvements in heart rate variability
[26:22] so their their parasympathetic tone
[26:24] >> so they had improvements in our HRV
[26:26] improvements in resting heart rate um
[26:28] and that was mediated by sleepwake
[26:30] consistency. So my hypothesis kind of
[26:33] held true in that these four kind of
[26:36] circadianish sleep behaviors helped
[26:39] actually regulate the the the system to
[26:42] a degree that it helped facilitate
[26:44] sleepwake consistency which is a really
[26:45] hard behavior. Feeling sleepy at a
[26:47] particular time is hard in the modern
[26:50] world
[26:50] >> right
[26:50] >> and that's what based on these data
[26:52] that's what we help to facilitate. It's
[26:54] exciting. Okay, a lot to unpack there.
[26:57] So, um
[26:58] >> I just want to make sure everyone
[27:00] understands those behaviors.
[27:01] >> Yeah,
[27:02] >> zone 2 is, I guess, a relatively common
[27:05] term in the in the kind of online health
[27:08] space, but I I never want to assume that
[27:10] everyone listening knows what zone 2
[27:12] even means.
[27:13] >> Uh could you just sort of expand on that
[27:15] a little bit?
[27:15] >> So, if you do not have access to
[27:18] technology, so it's, you know, generally
[27:20] 50 to 60% of your maximum heart rate.
[27:22] Um, but if you don't have a way to
[27:25] measure that, um, it's basically just an
[27:27] activity where you can comfortably talk.
[27:31] So, you can imagine doing a power walk
[27:33] with your friends. Um, as long as you
[27:35] can talk relatively comfortably, you're
[27:37] in zone two.
[27:39] >> Yeah.
[27:39] >> Um, you don't want it to be so
[27:41] comfortable that like, you know, it's
[27:43] just you and I kind of sitting here. Um,
[27:45] you want it to be, you know, not not
[27:48] even like challenging, I guess. You
[27:50] know, for me it's just a slow jog, you
[27:52] know, and I just I'm able to, you know,
[27:54] talk comfortably and
[27:56] >> but it could be a brisk walk for some
[27:57] people,
[27:57] >> a brisk walk with a vest, a weighted
[27:59] vest or something. Who knows? Yeah. Um,
[28:01] so
[28:02] >> so what what what I like about those
[28:03] four behaviors is if I think about them
[28:06] through the lens of
[28:07] >> what I've been talking about for many
[28:09] years, which is these four pillars of
[28:10] health.
[28:11] >> Yeah, I love it.
[28:11] >> And I kind of feel each one speaks to a
[28:14] different pillar. Nutrition is dealt
[28:16] with with the time restricted eating.
[28:18] Eat all your food within a 12-hour
[28:19] window.
[28:20] Movement is addressed with your zone 2
[28:23] recommendation for was it at least 30
[28:25] minutes?
[28:26] >> Yes.
[28:26] >> Right. Relaxation or stress reduction is
[28:30] addressed through your breath work.
[28:32] Right. And then sleep is kind of
[28:34] addressed counterintuitively in some
[28:36] ways by morning light exposure which
[28:38] helps you sleep better at night. So,
[28:41] we're dealing with these core four
[28:43] pillars, which I think is a really
[28:45] >> empowering message because what I love
[28:46] about those is they're free behaviors,
[28:49] right?
[28:50] >> Most people, whoever they are, wherever
[28:52] they're listening to this
[28:53] >> at the end of this episode, could go,
[28:55] hm,
[28:56] >> I wonder if I could bring those four
[28:58] free behaviors into my life. Now,
[29:00] >> I framed it around the autonomic nervous
[29:02] system,
[29:04] >> but of course, you also mentioned that
[29:06] you had this hypothesis about the
[29:07] sleepwake cycle. So I think we need to
[29:09] unpack that a little bit.
[29:12] >> Why is a sleepw
[29:15] autonomic nervous system?
[29:16] >> Yeah. So sleepweight consistency um is a
[29:20] driver of sleep quality and sleep
[29:22] quality is really the only kind of
[29:26] metric inside sleep that's linearly
[29:30] correlated with heart rate variability
[29:32] which is a proxy measure of the
[29:33] autonomic nervous system. So heart rate
[29:36] variability is basically the um time
[29:40] interval between heartbeats. Your heart
[29:41] rate variability is a measure of that.
[29:43] So your heart doesn't beat on a
[29:44] metronome. It has, you know, it's very
[29:46] you've got, you know, it's over the
[29:48] course of 60 um seconds, you know, your
[29:51] your first beat will maybe be, you know,
[29:55] 44 milliseconds. the next one will be
[29:58] 792 and the next one you know so that
[30:00] variability is actually an indicator of
[30:03] your autonomic health the more
[30:05] variability the higher your heart rate
[30:07] variability the better
[30:09] >> so we all want higher HRV basically
[30:13] >> relative to your own baseline it's
[30:15] modifiable you know I talk about this
[30:16] throughout the book you know that and
[30:18] when we kind of go back to the world's
[30:20] divided into two you know the the heart
[30:23] of variability is just a good measure of
[30:25] where you sit on you know on this
[30:27] spectrum right do you have control of
[30:28] your autonomic nervous system are you
[30:30] able to respond and adapt to stress in a
[30:34] functional way
[30:35] >> in fact can I just interrupt there and
[30:37] ask a question which just came to me
[30:40] >> if you could only
[30:42] >> okay
[30:44] >> measure one metric on an individual
[30:49] >> right to get a snapshot
[30:53] >> of their health and wellbeing Would
[30:56] it be HRV? Well, I'd probably I'd
[30:58] probably do V2 max
[31:00] >> really
[31:01] >> because
[31:02] that like that's also highly correlated
[31:05] with heart rate variability and resting
[31:07] heart rate which is G basically gives
[31:09] you a snapshot of your cardiorespiratory
[31:11] fitness right so it's so I I think with
[31:14] with HRV moves around a ton right it's
[31:17] super sensitive so it's it's um
[31:21] >> you know and and V2 max obviously not
[31:23] something you're looking at every day
[31:24] you could argue HRV you're looking at as
[31:26] a snapshot
[31:27] Um, but I would say V2 max because that
[31:31] would give you a better, more specific
[31:34] way. You would know what you need to do
[31:37] in order to improve your V2 max, right?
[31:41] So, if your V2 max is trending down,
[31:43] you're like, "All right, I need to run
[31:44] harder. Essentially, I need to work my
[31:46] heart harder in order to improve my V2
[31:48] max."
[31:48] >> Okay. So,
[31:49] >> so yeah, V2 max.
[31:50] >> That's interesting. I wasn't necessarily
[31:52] expecting that. So, that's again
[31:53] problems with expectations, right? Yeah.
[31:55] >> So, okay, that's super interesting
[31:56] because I actually thought you might go
[31:58] for HRV and go, well, actually, this is
[32:00] a
[32:00] >> one of the best markers of the overall
[32:02] functioning of our nervous system, which
[32:04] of course it is.
[32:05] >> It is,
[32:06] >> but I think again, we're going to have
[32:08] to explain what V2 max is for people who
[32:10] don't know. And then additionally to
[32:13] that,
[32:15] if someone has got a good V2 max, you
[32:19] know, and we can, you know, discuss what
[32:22] good might mean for someone's age.
[32:25] >> Can we then assume that lots of other
[32:28] things are happening.
[32:29] >> I guess that's what I'm saying.
[32:31] >> Like you're going to have a good fun
[32:33] welling nervous system otherwise you
[32:35] wouldn't be having a good V2 max.
[32:36] >> Yes.
[32:37] >> So it's almost higher root cause sort of
[32:39] thing.
[32:39] >> 100%. Yeah. And I think it's it's just
[32:42] um it's it's uh it's very actionable,
[32:46] you know. Um and not to say that heart
[32:48] rate variability is not, but um but I
[32:50] just think yeah, V2 max just is uh it
[32:54] just gives us that really great overall
[32:56] snapshot of your overall health. Yeah.
[33:00] >> Yeah. That's I that's made me think cuz
[33:02] I done for
[33:04] >> I went to Sulford uh sports science lab
[33:08] >> two maybe three years ago and did it cuz
[33:10] it's quite hard to do right you know for
[33:12] >> Oh they push you hard comfortable. Yeah.
[33:14] >> But I haven't done it for a while and
[33:16] I'm feeling as fit as I felt in ages. So
[33:18] that's a good give it a try. Yeah. I
[33:19] think I'm going to go and get it done.
[33:20] >> It's good. I Yeah. I like keeping I like
[33:22] keeping track of of mine. Um, you know,
[33:24] we we measure it passively on Whoop and
[33:27] I get mine tested, you know, a couple
[33:29] times a year usually.
[33:30] >> Twice a year.
[33:30] >> Yeah. Yeah. Usually, so November,
[33:32] actually, I haven't been. Um, so I I my
[33:36] last V2 max in a lab was in November.
[33:39] So, um, I I didn't I didn't do it, but
[33:41] yeah.
[33:42] >> And can you just explain exactly what V2
[33:44] max means?
[33:45] >> Yeah. So, it's basically is, you know,
[33:46] how much oxygen you can take in during
[33:48] the most intense exercise. So, it's just
[33:51] it's a measure of kind of your oxygen
[33:52] consumption during intense exercise. And
[33:56] V2 max, um, you know, for folks who who
[33:58] aren't aware, it's it's it's probably
[34:00] our one of the greatest predictors of
[34:02] longevity. Um, it really, you know, it's
[34:05] it's you got a high V2 max, it's very
[34:07] hard to get sick. It's very hard to die.
[34:10] Um, so it's it's a good it's it's good
[34:12] to be aware of your V2 max and and I
[34:14] think it's it's a great, you know, if
[34:15] you're looking for maybe metrics to to
[34:18] track. Obviously, heart rate
[34:19] variability, you want to it's
[34:20] modifiable. You want it to improve. It
[34:22] moves slowly as you engage behaviors
[34:25] that build a more robust autonomic
[34:27] nervous system. Um, V2 max is a path to
[34:30] improving heart rate variability. Um,
[34:32] but yeah, I V2 max is is great. Yeah.
[34:36] And and as a slight aside for you know
[34:39] you're an athletic individual right
[34:41] you've you've always been sporty
[34:43] >> you like what well from my understanding
[34:45] is you enjoy working out you enjoy
[34:46] sports
[34:47] >> yes
[34:48] >> there will be people listening to this
[34:49] show who probably don't identify in that
[34:51] way for sure
[34:52] >> right so for them they want to be
[34:55] learning things that they can then do
[34:57] they go oh wow right okay I get it I get
[34:59] a 45minute walk is really important for
[35:01] me to find
[35:02] >> time for each day right
[35:04] >> is V2 max in your view still important
[35:07] for someone like that? Yes, it's I think
[35:09] for all humans um you know if you want
[35:12] to pay down the burden of chronic
[35:16] disease um certainly cardiovascular
[35:19] disease you want to be paying attention
[35:21] to your you don't even need to pay
[35:23] attention to your V2 max but you want to
[35:24] engage behaviors that allow you to
[35:27] improve your heart health right and
[35:29] getting out of breath a couple times a
[35:30] week is a path to that so in addition to
[35:33] you know the 45minut walk if you can
[35:35] just for some folks it's just as hard as
[35:38] you can walk for 15 seconds, right? Or
[35:42] get on a bike, bike as hard as you can
[35:45] for 30 seconds and then take a
[35:47] two-minute break and then try it again.
[35:49] >> And you just want to repeat that, you
[35:51] know, and that's called just interval
[35:53] training, highintensity interval
[35:54] training. And we know that that um can
[35:57] you can improve your your your V2 max by
[36:00] engaging in these kind of higher
[36:02] intensity trainings. The one of the
[36:05] sections I really like in your book is
[36:06] about intelligent training
[36:09] >> and it made me think of something that
[36:11] I've changed quite significantly in the
[36:13] last year. So you know it's and really
[36:15] you highlight the importance of variety.
[36:20] >> Yeah.
[36:20] >> In your movement, right? You you need a
[36:23] selection of different things. You need
[36:24] mobility, you need low intensity, you
[36:26] need high intensity.
[36:27] >> Strength training.
[36:28] >> Strength, right? Which is really
[36:29] interesting. And so I would say I've
[36:31] kept myself in pretty good shape for
[36:34] many years, right?
[36:36] But I would say over the last few years
[36:38] for a variety of reasons, I have
[36:42] prioritized
[36:44] low intensity stuff.
[36:45] >> I've done a ton of low inensity work,
[36:48] lots of nasal breathing.
[36:50] >> Uming yeah, sometimes I would get I
[36:53] wouldn't say obsessed, but I would get
[36:54] my heart rate monitor on and you know,
[36:56] I'd got my zone 2 measured at the labs
[36:58] and kept it there. Right. I've done all
[36:59] that and it's great.
[37:02] And I used to be a very competitive
[37:04] squash player in my teenage years,
[37:07] right? But I think in my mid20s when I
[37:09] had some backage, I haven't really
[37:10] played since then. [clears throat]
[37:12] >> I took up paddle, which is the fastest
[37:14] growing sport in the world.
[37:16] >> About a year ago,
[37:19] >> oh my god, like within weeks, my resting
[37:22] heart rate was starting to drop. And I
[37:24] thought, wait a minute, I'm already fit
[37:26] and well, but I realized that the sort
[37:29] of movement paddle was giving me
[37:32] >> bit more of intensity, bit more sprint
[37:34] here, you know, sudden movements,
[37:36] >> short bursts, change of direction,
[37:37] >> which I love.
[37:38] >> Yeah.
[37:39] >> I was like, "Oh, wow. I've been missing
[37:43] >> this input to my physiology." Now,
[37:45] that's to be clear, I play paddle cuz I
[37:48] love it and it's fun, right? So, I
[37:50] wasn't playing it for a health reason. I
[37:52] was playing it because a I took it all
[37:54] myself
[37:54] >> and that is ideal.
[37:55] >> Yeah. So, and we've literally played
[37:57] five times a week in August. I mean,
[37:58] it's just been phenomenal.
[38:00] >> I love it.
[38:01] >> And so, that's the dream for all of us,
[38:03] right? We did something that we love.
[38:04] >> Oh my gosh. Yeah. And it has the second
[38:06] order.
[38:06] >> But the second order side effect has
[38:08] been quite remarkable. My resting heart
[38:09] rate, the lowest I've ever seen it.
[38:11] >> And so, somebody say, "Oh, paddle
[38:13] doesn't get you fit." I'm like, "Well,
[38:14] hey, it kind of again, it's like it
[38:15] starts with food." It depends who you
[38:17] are. It depends what your current
[38:19] tapestry is. I was missing that. So
[38:21] adding it in, I got a really phenomenal
[38:24] and very quick response.
[38:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I
[38:27] think that
[38:28] >> I think the takeaway for folks who are
[38:30] listening is that you don't need to do
[38:31] you know I talk about five domains of
[38:33] intelligent training. You don't need to
[38:34] do well one of them is is recovery is a
[38:36] big piece of that and you know that
[38:38] needs to be baked into our daily lives I
[38:40] think very intentionally. Um mobility is
[38:42] another one that I think is really
[38:43] important. Um, but just pick one and
[38:46] just start there. Yeah.
[38:48] >> You know, like you don't have to And
[38:49] guys, you wrote a whole book about
[38:51] behavior change, you know, like you
[38:52] don't have to to start with a gazillion
[38:54] things at once. Just think about your
[38:57] values, you know, and and when I think
[38:58] about behavior change, and this is how I
[39:00] think about it myself. I'm constantly
[39:02] auditing my making sure that my
[39:04] behaviors align with what I say I value,
[39:06] right? Like there's nothing worse than
[39:07] like being a phony, right? Like and and
[39:10] like you know to yourself, right? You
[39:12] want to build integrity within yourself.
[39:14] That's the most important thing. That's
[39:16] the only scoreard that matters,
[39:18] >> right?
[39:19] >> A not the truth.
[39:20] >> So you think about what it is that you
[39:22] value. And I and I think about this I
[39:24] think of a beautiful exercise. I call it
[39:25] the principle of non-neutrality. And
[39:27] we'll get back to sleepwake timing, but
[39:28] the principle of non-neutrality. So you
[39:30] basically think about your life in in in
[39:33] a in the way that there's no neutral
[39:35] actions.
[39:37] every action that you deploy across the
[39:39] day is either going to support who you
[39:41] want to be in the world or not.
[39:45] And if you if you just and that sounds
[39:47] harsh maybe for daily living, but if you
[39:49] just do that for 72 hours, you make a
[39:53] list of, you know, every time you think
[39:55] about your a behavior that you're going
[39:56] to engage in, does this support who I
[39:58] want to be or does this sabotage who I
[40:00] want to be?
[40:02] And then you start to realize you you
[40:05] get an audit of like what is actually
[40:07] supporting who you want to be
[40:09] >> and then you start to back into actually
[40:11] who do you want to be you know you're
[40:13] like ah does you know sometimes you know
[40:16] just how you treat the person at the CVS
[40:18] counter at the pharmacy like you know
[40:19] like did that align with who I want to
[40:21] be you know just like if you think about
[40:23] it super tactically and like on a really
[40:25] micro level you can start to paint a
[40:29] picture of the person you actually are.
[40:32] >> Yeah. Oh my god, I I just love that so
[40:36] much. And you said maybe it's a bit
[40:38] harsh. I don't think it's harsh at all.
[40:41] Like I really don't. You want to change
[40:43] your life.
[40:45] The first thing you have to do is become
[40:48] radically honest with yourself.
[40:50] >> Totally.
[40:51] >> Once you start lying to yourself and
[40:52] kidding yourself,
[40:53] >> you are literally trying to build change
[40:56] on a foundation of sand. And I know that
[40:58] cuz I've I've tried to do that in the
[40:59] past. doesn't work.
[41:01] >> I know. Same. Same.
[41:02] >> You have to be able to be honest and go
[41:04] know that. And I love that, you know,
[41:05] >> oh yeah, you're great to your
[41:07] colleagues, you're great to your boss,
[41:09] >> but are you great to the person who
[41:12] can't do anything for you in the shop,
[41:14] >> right? Cuz that really does show you who
[41:16] you are. And again, it's again, we can't
[41:18] fall into the trap of beating ourselves
[41:19] up,
[41:20] >> right? It's not about, for me at least,
[41:21] it's not about
[41:22] >> and that's why I think I caveat with the
[41:24] harshness.
[41:25] >> It's like, but you can be kind to
[41:26] yourself. Go, wow.
[41:28] >> Yeah. You know what? What? Why wasn't I
[41:31] nice to the I think you said the lady at
[41:32] CVS,
[41:33] >> you know, did I have a did I have an
[41:35] ego? Did I think I was I was better than
[41:38] her? Um did I feel entitled to something
[41:41] that whatever it might be?
[41:42] >> Yeah.
[41:43] >> It's that self inquiry that gives you
[41:45] the gold that allows you to properly
[41:48] change your life for good, doesn't it?
[41:50] >> Yeah. And I think that's the most
[41:51] radical form of self-love. Yeah. is when
[41:54] in when you are kind of living in
[41:56] alignment with who you say you want to
[41:58] be.
[41:59] >> Yeah. Well, I want to get back to that
[42:01] word alignment. I'm I'm going to I'm
[42:03] going to try and discipline myself to
[42:05] get us back to close off the loop with
[42:08] >> Yeah. Sleepweight consistency.
[42:09] >> Yeah. And it's it's so the four
[42:11] behaviors that will help us with our
[42:13] sleepwake consistency which will then
[42:15] also help us regulate our autonomic
[42:17] nervous system. Okay. So, where where
[42:19] were we? So basically I was saying um
[42:21] how sleepwake consistency which is quite
[42:24] literally the time you go to bed and
[42:25] when you wake up you want to make that
[42:26] as stable as possible.
[42:28] >> Yeah.
[42:28] >> Okay. This um helps improve your
[42:31] menstrual cycle regularity. It helps
[42:33] improve you know from the very from the
[42:35] tad pagotes in the world of the world
[42:37] who won five tour to France.
[42:39] Physiological stability is one of the
[42:41] greatest predictors of his performance
[42:43] levels. It's also predicts cycle
[42:45] regularity. It also predicts um symptoms
[42:49] associated symptom severity and
[42:50] frequency during pen pmenopause and
[42:52] menopause and menstrual cycle.
[42:55] >> Just to make sure we've all landed that.
[42:56] So you're basically saying sleepwake
[42:59] consistency. So going to bed
[43:01] >> brings about physiological stability
[43:03] across heart rate variability, resting
[43:06] heart rate, sleep. But sleep weight
[43:09] consistency in and of itself you're
[43:10] saying is helping
[43:11] >> that behavior is
[43:12] >> performance and for women
[43:14] >> health
[43:15] >> in pmenopause or or through menopause it
[43:18] helps reduce symptoms.
[43:20] >> Yes.
[43:20] >> Right. So
[43:22] >> and again this gets to real root cause
[43:24] approach.
[43:25] >> Yeah. This isn't causal, right? But
[43:28] >> um these are correlations.
[43:29] >> No. And you're not of course saying that
[43:31] >> women shouldn't be taking hormones.
[43:33] There's something here. Yeah. Yeah.
[43:34] You're just saying as well as anything
[43:36] else you might be considering,
[43:38] >> right?
[43:39] >> Don't forget about sleepwake
[43:41] consistency.
[43:42] >> What it shows is that if it there's an
[43:45] amplification of symptom severity and
[43:48] frequency in the absence of this
[43:50] stability that I'm talking about this
[43:52] consistency
[43:52] >> in stability, right?
[43:55] >> How much variability can you get away
[43:57] talking within half an hour each night?
[43:59] >> Yeah, roughly. You know, I think the
[44:01] older you get, the less the more
[44:02] sensitive our circadian rhythms are, the
[44:05] less robust they are. And there's lots
[44:07] of variation between people like within
[44:10] people like it's um you know, so it's
[44:12] it's certainly not one size fit all. You
[44:14] might have a more robust circadian
[44:16] system. I might be more sensitive. I
[44:17] have to have that window be narrower.
[44:19] And people when they start to self
[44:21] audit, they'll recognize who they are.
[44:23] And then you got to just create
[44:24] boundaries to protect that, right?
[44:26] knowing that it impacts your health, how
[44:28] you show up the next day, whether or not
[44:30] you can live your values with joy and
[44:31] energy, right? Like these all kind of
[44:33] tie together, right? So, yeah, so
[44:35] sleepwake consistency um drives quality,
[44:39] which is really, you know, the time
[44:42] frame during sleep where you're
[44:43] restoring and regenerating. Um and that
[44:46] is correlated that the extent to which
[44:48] you get sleep quality is correlated with
[44:50] u your autonomic nervous system health.
[44:52] >> Okay?
[44:52] >> So, sleep quality really matters. Sleep
[44:54] consistency is the behavior that drives
[44:55] it. All the stuff, the four core
[44:57] behaviors we talked about can help get
[45:00] you to fall asleep and stay asleep um at
[45:02] a more consistent, you know, more
[45:04] consistently.
[45:05] >> So, in essence,
[45:06] >> yeah,
[45:09] >> trying to lock in those four free
[45:11] behaviors
[45:13] has
[45:15] probably zero downside and a hell of a
[45:17] lot of upside, right?
[45:19] >> I think it's a great if people are
[45:20] starting from scratch, that is a great
[45:22] place to start.
[45:23] >> Yeah. you know, it's evidencebased.
[45:24] It's, you know, it's And what we what
[45:26] was really cool in the study is we were
[45:28] able um people continued with these
[45:30] behaviors after the study was over.
[45:32] >> Yeah. Well, then they're not they're not
[45:34] difficult once you block them in.
[45:36] >> Yeah. And you start feeling good. You
[45:37] start to see the benefit.
[45:39] >> Yeah. One of the things I love about
[45:40] timerestricted eating and always have
[45:41] done since Sachin Panda's early papers
[45:44] in I think I think 2014 his first
[45:46] >> mouse study came out from recollection
[45:49] >> is
[45:51] although he and other researchers are
[45:53] not saying eat whatever you want
[45:56] actually in some ways where people find
[45:58] it sometimes hard to make the right
[46:00] choices some people say I can't afford
[46:02] healthy nutritious foods and I totally
[46:05] recognize that is the case for some
[46:06] people right
[46:08] >> time restricts eating is available to
[46:11] everyone.
[46:12] >> Yeah.
[46:12] >> Right.
[46:13] >> Thank you for changing what you eat.
[46:14] You're just changing when you eat.
[46:16] >> Definitely. Definitely. And it can get
[46:18] you, you know, is it going to totally
[46:20] transform your metabolic health?
[46:22] >> Probably not. But it can get you some
[46:24] other way there. Yeah. you know, like
[46:25] there there's no question that I I think
[46:28] in the in the the data, I think the
[46:30] literature support there's some good
[46:32] RCTs that support randomized control
[46:34] trials um where we see eating earlier in
[46:38] the day.
[46:38] >> Yeah.
[46:39] >> We're just more primed metabolically to
[46:41] digest the food. We're more active,
[46:43] right? We're using those nutrients,
[46:45] right, in our daily
[46:46] >> activities. Um and so, and as the day
[46:49] goes on, we also know that we become
[46:52] less we become more insulin resistant.
[46:54] Yeah,
[46:54] >> right. We're just not as capable of
[46:57] using those nutrients in the way that is
[46:59] helpful for our body, our nutrient
[47:01] sensing, all of that kind of
[47:02] >> changes across the day,
[47:04] >> which goes back to one of your central
[47:06] ideas in the book that the body runs on
[47:08] timing.
[47:08] >> It does, not on willpower, folks, on
[47:10] timing.
[47:11] >> Yeah. So, there's a time to
[47:13] >> eat more food. There's a time, you know,
[47:16] and again, I I always think about these
[47:18] traditional healing modalities like
[47:21] iovedic medicine or traditional Chinese
[47:23] medicine. And they've always understood
[47:27] concepts like personalized medicine,
[47:28] which is the rage now.
[47:30] >> They got it 2 3,000 years ago. They were
[47:32] all different. There were, you know, in
[47:33] IV medicine, they they'll put you into
[47:36] they've got these three categories. This
[47:38] is very crude, very broadly. You know,
[47:40] you know, there's a lot more
[47:41] specificity, but oh, if you're this type
[47:44] of person, you need to eat more of these
[47:46] sorts of foods. If you're this type of
[47:48] person,
[47:48] >> you need to eat more of these types of
[47:50] foods. Of course, the scientific
[47:52] process, as great as it is, for much of
[47:54] the 20th century, it kind of ignored
[47:56] that and tried to put everyone in the
[47:57] same box.
[47:59] >> And now we're moving back to,
[48:00] >> oh, we're all respond slightly
[48:02] differently. But there but there are
[48:03] these core
[48:04] >> principles,
[48:05] >> core principles, and not eating for 16
[48:08] hours of [laughter] every 24 hours is a
[48:09] good thing for most humans.
[48:11] >> Exactly. And there's so much debate
[48:13] online about like I'm like, guys, we're
[48:15] losing the plot here. Like you raised
[48:17] such a good point that the day goes on,
[48:21] we just our willpower decreases, right?
[48:24] We've made 2,000 decisions over the
[48:26] course of the day and now we're going to
[48:27] do we have to decide, okay, am I going
[48:29] to have the ice cream before bed or not?
[48:30] Well, if you have that 12-hour block
[48:33] >> and that your last calories at 7, you
[48:35] take that decision off the table. And if
[48:37] you're distributing your macronutrients
[48:39] throughout the day, you're getting
[48:39] enough calories, you're not going to
[48:41] need or you're not going to be hungry.
[48:43] >> Yeah. you know, [clears throat] so it's
[48:44] just it's kind of like, all right, like
[48:47] I can do this, you know, I can eat over
[48:49] a 12-h hour, you know, period and then I
[48:51] can let my body rest, regenerate, heal
[48:54] [snorts] over the course of the 12
[48:55] hours. And I will say the data is wildly
[48:59] supportive of this 12 on, 12 off.
[49:00] >> Yeah. I mean, you've got, just to be
[49:02] clear, I mean, I've heard you talk about
[49:04] this, but you have access to all the
[49:06] Whoop data, right? So you I'm pretty
[49:09] sure that study, was it 38,000 people?
[49:11] >> Yeah, 39,000 people.
[49:12] >> Yeah. So these aren't small.
[49:13] >> No. And TR had independent effects on
[49:16] cardiorespiratory fitness. So in and
[49:18] parasympthetic activity. So last night's
[49:19] a really good example. Um I started my
[49:22] fast pretty early yesterday because I
[49:24] was traveling. I was trying to basically
[49:26] I need to maximize my sleep and recovery
[49:28] tonight. I wake up with a 47 resting
[49:30] heart rate.
[49:32] >> Wow.
[49:33] >> In minus 51. So it's not it's not like
[49:34] it's huge, but when you extend your
[49:37] fast, not a lot, but when you are really
[49:40] trying to recover from travel, when
[49:42] you're trying to kind of get yourself in
[49:44] a place where you are, you know,
[49:46] allowing that healing to be maximized
[49:48] over the course of the night, not
[49:51] forcing your body to have to digest food
[49:53] is really good strategy.
[49:54] >> Yeah, I I think I mentioned this a few
[49:56] months ago, but that is one thing I've
[49:58] changed. Like I, you know, if I ever had
[50:00] an evening event, which I I rarely do
[50:02] these days because I try and align my
[50:05] work around my desired schedule.
[50:06] >> You have earlier
[50:09] this this November, I'm doing uh seven
[50:12] live shows in in various places around
[50:14] the world.
[50:14] >> That's amazing.
[50:15] >> But five of them are on a Sunday
[50:18] >> and you know what? I'm doing them at 4
[50:20] p.m.
[50:20] >> That's right.
[50:21] >> I'm like I'm I'm not going to if I can
[50:23] choose if it's a if it I know some
[50:24] people work on a Sunday.
[50:26] >> People come to see you. I don't want to
[50:28] go home bed at midnight. I don't think
[50:30] my audience do. So, it's going to be
[50:31] like 4 till 7 so we can all get home
[50:33] [laughter] and get our nights.
[50:34] >> Um, which which is which is super
[50:36] interesting. But
[50:37] >> yeah, I love it
[50:38] >> for for concepts of people,
[50:40] [clears throat]
[50:41] >> you flew from Boston to the UK
[50:44] >> yesterday, right? So, that's a 5h hour
[50:46] >> time difference. You've also got a 2hour
[50:48] train up this morning to come and see
[50:50] me.
[50:51] >> Y
[50:51] >> Okay.
[50:52] >> And
[50:54] you know, I know you slept well last
[50:55] night. your data is all really good this
[50:57] morning. It's pretty remarkable to see
[50:59] how cognitively sharp you are
[51:01] >> on the back of all that. And it's really
[51:03] interesting to hear that
[51:04] >> you I'm sure you were hungry and could
[51:06] have quite liked a little something last
[51:09] night, right? But you've you've learned
[51:10] enough about your body to know
[51:13] >> actually it's better for me not to eat
[51:15] at the moment. I'm going to be much
[51:17] better tomorrow and more resilient and
[51:20] I'll recover more. That's what we were
[51:22] talking about before. That's knowing
[51:23] yourself, isn't it?
[51:24] >> Yeah. I think I think so. And I and I do
[51:27] think there's also this idea, we were
[51:29] talking about it earlier, like just that
[51:31] belief in that like I like imagine my
[51:33] body recovering. I imagine my body and
[51:37] my mind, you know, feeling safe and, you
[51:39] know, like I I kind of put myself in
[51:42] that I I guess I I create the kind of
[51:46] mindset and conditions where I'm like
[51:48] able to drop into a really restorative
[51:50] sleep in a hotel I've never been in
[51:52] after a day of travel. like I kind of
[51:54] have got to a point where I can like
[51:56] kind of talk myself into that future in
[51:58] a in a way.
[51:58] >> That that's really beautiful because
[52:00] that there is this sort of tension
[52:02] sometimes between
[52:05] you know routine
[52:08] and resilience, right? You know that
[52:11] that
[52:12] >> you know when you're at home you can
[52:14] lock in these four behaviors probably
[52:16] because you've set your life around it,
[52:17] right?
[52:18] >> But can we adapt
[52:20] >> and be resilient when we're not in our
[52:22] environment?
[52:24] which I think is important as well
[52:26] because
[52:32] you know you might be able to do 70% 80%
[52:34] 90% of the time but you're going to you
[52:37] know depending on who you are. There may
[52:38] be times when you're working a late
[52:40] shift at work or you have an evening
[52:44] concert you want to go to and you come
[52:46] back late, but you know what? You had
[52:48] such a blast at the concert. It was
[52:50] worth
[52:51] >> the impact. Like me, I literally I'm I'm
[52:53] on a
[52:54] >> I'm on a high at the moment because my
[52:57] alltime favorite bandon joy from a kid
[52:59] and I've seen them.
[53:01] >> I have talked to Bon Joy before his
[53:03] team.
[53:03] >> Yeah, there you go. I've seen him with a
[53:06] band before.
[53:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. He wears a whoop. Yeah.
[53:07] >> Yeah. He came on the podcast last year
[53:08] which was a certain moment for me. I
[53:11] don't think I've ever been that nervous
[53:12] with anyone because he was like my
[53:14] boyhood idol.
[53:14] >> Oh my gosh. And he is just a legend.
[53:17] >> But I went to Dublin on Sunday to watch
[53:19] him at Croat Park which was phenomenal.
[53:21] 80,000 people sell out.
[53:24] >> It was just utterly phenomenal. And I'm
[53:28] still buzzing today 4 days later from
[53:30] that. Yeah. You know what? I got to bed
[53:32] really late. I think I went to bed at
[53:33] half past midnight by the time I walked
[53:34] home to the hotel.
[53:36] >> Yeah. But I think that's okay as well.
[53:39] >> It is. It is. You know what I mean? And
[53:40] I and I say this in the book, you know,
[53:41] I for the way I live, I'm probably 9010.
[53:44] You know, I 90% of the time, you know, I
[53:46] I have a relatively boring life in the
[53:49] sense that the people I hang out hang
[53:50] out with kind of have the same view on
[53:52] life as I do. Um, but you know, 10% of
[53:54] the time I I go off the rails, right?
[53:56] Like and um you know, and sometimes
[53:59] sometimes it's more like 20%, right? But
[54:01] I think if we can 80% of the time create
[54:04] these routines, we can we create some
[54:07] buffer in the system to be able to
[54:09] handle these moments where you know you
[54:12] don't want to get sick on I that the
[54:14] getting sick on vacation is I think a
[54:16] great
[54:18] >> um indicator that you don't have this
[54:21] 8020 balance
[54:23] >> in your day-to-day.
[54:25] >> It's called the letdown effect and it's
[54:27] a a very kind of common phenomenon. You
[54:29] know, basically when you are, you know,
[54:32] oftentimes like life, especially you're
[54:33] kind of getting ready for a vacation,
[54:35] like you're trying to meet deadlines.
[54:36] You're trying to get everything buttoned
[54:37] up and you know, so your your body's
[54:39] marshalling these defenses, right? And
[54:41] it's infinite wisdom to you know, you
[54:43] know, kind of increase your imu, you
[54:45] know, get your immune system increased
[54:46] and, you know, cortisol and epinephrine.
[54:48] You've got all this like, you know,
[54:49] these energy hormones like you know,
[54:51] kind of mobilizing and then you go on
[54:54] vacation and invariably your system lets
[54:56] down and you get sick.
[54:59] Right? That is to me a indicator that
[55:03] you don't have the right sense of
[55:04] balance and proportion across your your
[55:07] kind of day, week, month.
[55:09] >> So that's a good just kind of like gut
[55:12] check. You know, do I get sick on
[55:13] vacation when I let down after a big
[55:16] project? Do I get sick? And if the
[55:18] answer is yes, you probably need to
[55:20] rethink your dayto-day. That doesn't
[55:23] mean you need to cut down your ambition.
[55:25] doesn't mean you need to cut down your
[55:26] obsession for like the thing that you're
[55:29] doing, but they're they're you want to
[55:31] also be able to not have to deal with
[55:34] these setbacks, right? And sometimes
[55:36] those sickness can can actually be a
[55:38] disease, right? If this is a chronic
[55:39] kind of scenario where you are
[55:41] constantly in this state of demand
[55:43] mismatch, right? you've got your energy
[55:46] output
[55:47] >> and um and the demands on your time.
[55:50] When you are basically in a scenario
[55:51] where your demands um exceed your
[55:55] capacity, right, you end up getting
[55:58] sick.
[55:59] >> Yeah.
[56:02] You mentioned in the book that you have
[56:06] pretty much not been sick for eight
[56:07] years now.
[56:08] >> Yeah.
[56:10] >> Touch word. Yeah.
[56:10] >> Going strong. Um,
[56:13] of course there's multiple factors that
[56:17] are at play.
[56:18] >> Yes.
[56:18] >> In terms of whether someone gets sick or
[56:20] not, but in your view,
[56:23] >> why do you think you have become so
[56:26] resilient
[56:27] >> to I guess illness?
[56:30] >> Yeah. I mean, I I think sleepwake
[56:31] consistency I kind of go back to that.
[56:34] That's the one big change. My the last
[56:36] time I was sick was February 2017.
[56:39] >> I remember I Yeah. I traveled to to Penn
[56:42] State with one of my colleagues, Michael
[56:43] Lombardi. Um, and we were working with
[56:46] the ice hockey team and um yeah, and I I
[56:48] was like I said to Michael, I'm like,
[56:50] "Oh man, I'm getting sick." And and sure
[56:52] enough, yeah, I ended up with a head
[56:53] cold. Um, and then that summer, Andrew
[56:55] Phillips came out with a a paper that
[56:58] basically was looking at what predicts
[57:01] GPA in Harvard students. And the
[57:05] greatest predictor of um of of GPA was
[57:09] sleepweight consistency. and he calls it
[57:10] sleepwake regularity.
[57:12] >> And and for people in the UK who don't
[57:13] know, that's a GPA is your
[57:15] >> your grade point average. Sorry. So your
[57:17] grades,
[57:18] >> your grades basically,
[57:19] >> sleep regularity was the thing that
[57:21] predicted GPA.
[57:22] >> That's incredible.
[57:23] >> I know. So I started I was at the time I
[57:25] was working with tons of athletes. So I
[57:26] had about 230 athletes at the time that
[57:28] I was working with really consistently.
[57:30] So I started manually tracking
[57:32] sleepweight consistency. And sure
[57:34] enough, over the course of six months,
[57:36] um the athletes who got injured less,
[57:38] sick less, and kind of performed, you
[57:41] know, sub by the subjective kind of um
[57:45] uh appraisal of their coaches performed
[57:47] better were the ones who had more stable
[57:48] sleepweight weight consistency. So I was
[57:51] like, damn, there's something here. Then
[57:52] we started tracking it and then we
[57:54] started it started bubbling up in every
[57:56] single research. We started including in
[57:57] a piece of research that we did, we
[57:59] started including um sleepweight
[58:00] consistency as one of the variables.
[58:02] some sometimes an outcome measure and
[58:04] and sure enough it was predictive of
[58:07] everything and then separately Daniel
[58:10] Winred and his colleagues um a
[58:12] researcher I think is Adam Manashe um
[58:14] he's brilliant uh he's so young I looked
[58:17] him up like online and I thought he was
[58:18] going to be like 70 years old he's like
[58:19] 25 I'm like good god but he is just a
[58:22] machine but basically what he and his
[58:24] colleagues published in January of 2024
[58:26] is they saw that sleepwake regularity or
[58:28] consistency was a greater predictor of
[58:30] all cause mortality than sleep duration.
[58:33] >> Wow.
[58:33] >> And they also then they found too and
[58:35] this is with the UK bio bank. I think it
[58:37] was like you know you know 79,000 folks
[58:41] kind of in this uh sample. And then the
[58:43] other one that they just published um
[58:45] pretty recently looked at disease and
[58:48] again sleep reg sleepwake regularity was
[58:51] a greater predictor of disease than
[58:53] sleep duration. So sleep duration
[58:54] matters, but this consistency is just so
[58:58] stabilizing.
[58:58] >> And and from what you've seen,
[59:01] presumably it doesn't matter too much
[59:02] what it is
[59:04] >> as long as it's consistent. So I know I
[59:08] am the best version of me when I'm
[59:11] asleep by 9 and I'm up by 5.
[59:13] >> Yeah.
[59:13] >> Right. I just know that.
[59:14] >> Boom. Yeah. You got it.
[59:16] >> I'm just on fire all the time. Energy,
[59:19] inspiration, whatever it is, I'm the
[59:20] person I want to be. Whereas my wife
[59:23] would probably be
[59:25] I guess 11 till 7 I guess.
[59:28] >> Yep.
[59:28] >> Probably push push that seven a bit
[59:31] >> later. But I So just help us understand
[59:34] how that changes between individuals.
[59:36] >> Yeah. So so basically we know generally
[59:38] you know if we're to put a bunch of
[59:40] humans who identify as morning larks and
[59:43] night owls on a mountain um with no
[59:46] electricity um they would all fall
[59:48] asleep, you know, within 48 hours of
[59:50] being in that environment. They'd all
[59:51] fall asleep about 3.3 hours after the
[59:54] sun sets within 30 minutes of each other
[59:56] >> irrespective of invertic chronotype.
[1:00:00] >> Yeah. So it's not that there aren't
[1:00:02] chronotypes but I don't know I don't
[1:00:03] think there is egregiously different
[1:00:06] than I think a lot of that is just
[1:00:07] modern life.
[1:00:08] >> Yeah. It's environmental in terms of
[1:00:10] >> I think it is.
[1:00:10] >> I think a lot of it is.
[1:00:11] >> Yeah. And you know there's lots of
[1:00:13] debate in the kind of sleep and
[1:00:14] circadian sciences and and I obviously I
[1:00:16] very much respect that but I but I think
[1:00:18] there is I I think the environment plays
[1:00:20] an enormous enormous role and not not
[1:00:22] just when you're an adult but the
[1:00:24] environment that you have as a child
[1:00:25] right do you have a lot of noise in
[1:00:28] urban environment do you have you know
[1:00:29] four siblings in the same room like you
[1:00:30] know I mean gosh
[1:00:32] >> you know all of that has an impact I
[1:00:33] think on how you end up being a the how
[1:00:36] you sleep as an adult right um so
[1:00:39] >> in the habits that you you create I
[1:00:41] think the profession that you end up
[1:00:42] going into, you know, like back in the
[1:00:44] Savannah, like you didn't have you
[1:00:46] couldn't be the, you know, if you're a
[1:00:47] musician artist, like you're doing it
[1:00:48] during the daylight, right? Regardless,
[1:00:50] right? We have the opportunity now to to
[1:00:52] be awake at all hours, right? and
[1:00:54] because that's when people are going to
[1:00:55] concerts. And so I say all that just so
[1:00:58] people for folks who do want to try to
[1:01:00] shift earlier for whatever reason um you
[1:01:03] know to just kind of get create a little
[1:01:05] distance from that midnight hour um you
[1:01:08] know to kind of take advantage of kind
[1:01:10] of that sweet spot before midnight
[1:01:12] because because we know there's other
[1:01:14] data that suggest that show um basically
[1:01:16] when you go to bed after midnight um you
[1:01:19] have a higher fasting glucose the next
[1:01:22] next day. Okay, independent of
[1:01:24] everything else that's going on. So, um
[1:01:25] this is a very welldesigned,
[1:01:27] well-controlled study. So, you know,
[1:01:29] there is something there is some magic
[1:01:31] before midnight, right? That we want to
[1:01:32] try to leverage. Um I think when we look
[1:01:34] at circulating melatonin, same sort of
[1:01:36] thing. Um I I think the bottom line is
[1:01:39] you don't want to bypass your natural
[1:01:41] pressure for sleep, whatever that is.
[1:01:44] For you, it's nine. Your wife it's 11.
[1:01:47] You know, for me, it's usually like 10.
[1:01:49] you know, like I I definitely want to
[1:01:50] prepare and and be ready to sleep at
[1:01:53] 10:00. Um, and I kind of same thing. I
[1:01:55] wake her up around 6. Um, so I I think
[1:01:58] like it's worth the experiment in your
[1:02:02] own life to figure out what is my
[1:02:03] natural pressure for sleep. And the way
[1:02:05] to begin that experiment is to wake up
[1:02:07] at the same time every single day. Um,
[1:02:10] get the morning natural light, get as
[1:02:12] much daylight as you can, as you can
[1:02:13] manage. Have a dark night. Like, so
[1:02:16] create contrast between your day and
[1:02:17] night. And sure enough, as long as you
[1:02:19] don't have caffeine after 2 or kind of
[1:02:20] falling asleep on the couch at 7:00
[1:02:22] p.m., um you should be in a scenario
[1:02:24] where you start to feel when you
[1:02:25] naturally are sleepy. Right. And and I
[1:02:28] think that is one of the most important
[1:02:29] human experiment experiments someone can
[1:02:31] run right now
[1:02:32] >> in modern society.
[1:02:34] >> Yeah. Because you go to people on the
[1:02:36] street, they don't even know when they
[1:02:37] would naturally feel sleepy because
[1:02:39] they're constantly pushing past that
[1:02:40] natural pressure for sleep with an
[1:02:42] extra, you know, show of on Netflix or,
[1:02:45] you know, that that Slack message that
[1:02:47] they got from a colleague or that email
[1:02:48] that they're sending out, you know,
[1:02:49] whatever it might be, right?
[1:02:51] >> It's not just the light. I mean, of
[1:02:52] course, the the bright light exposure
[1:02:54] that we might be looking at in the
[1:02:56] evenings,
[1:02:57] >> yes, that has an impact, but it's also
[1:02:58] the the
[1:03:00] >> the constant stimulation
[1:03:02] >> for sure. So, we're not allowing that
[1:03:04] natural lull to fall into it. We're
[1:03:07] still trying to answer emails or
[1:03:08] whatever it might be. Of course, you
[1:03:09] can't sleep,
[1:03:10] >> right? Right. Like your heart rate is
[1:03:11] going to be activated, right? You're
[1:03:13] telling your body that it is time to be
[1:03:15] awake and time to perform. As a result,
[1:03:17] you end up those chemicals end up
[1:03:20] circulating in your body, right?
[1:03:21] >> The biggest barrier to your health right
[1:03:24] now is probably not knowledge. It's
[1:03:26] action. You already know what's good for
[1:03:29] you. eating well, moving more, and
[1:03:32] managing stress. But knowing information
[1:03:34] is not the same as applying it day after
[1:03:37] day, especially if you're doing it by
[1:03:40] yourself. My name is Dr. Rangen Chhatty
[1:03:43] and I have more than two decades
[1:03:44] experience helping patients as a
[1:03:46] clinician. And now I'd love to help you
[1:03:49] take control of your health. When I
[1:03:52] surveyed more than 1,400 people after my
[1:03:55] recent 21-day energy reset, eight and 10
[1:03:59] said that their energy had improved in
[1:04:02] just 3 weeks. That's the kind of change
[1:04:04] I know more people can experience when
[1:04:07] they're surrounded by likeminded people.
[1:04:11] This is why I created the membership
[1:04:13] built to thrive community. Each month,
[1:04:16] we focus on one area of health broken
[1:04:19] down into daily habits with live Q&As's,
[1:04:22] a private community of people on the
[1:04:24] same journey, and many more features
[1:04:27] that make this journey sustainable. If
[1:04:30] you think this is something that you
[1:04:31] would like to be a part of, just scan
[1:04:34] the QR code on screen or tap the first
[1:04:37] link in the description box below to
[1:04:39] join us. The thing I was I was
[1:04:41] mentioning before the the the one of the
[1:04:42] big things I've changed over the last
[1:04:44] couple of years is if I which I don't
[1:04:46] very often anymore, but if I do have an
[1:04:48] evening event or a show that I'm doing
[1:04:50] or a live talk,
[1:04:52] I would I used to eat when I got back to
[1:04:55] the hotel room and it' still be, you
[1:04:57] know, healthy foods.
[1:04:59] >> Yeah.
[1:05:00] >> But I I felt like I had a hangover the
[1:05:02] next morning
[1:05:03] >> even though I hadn't been drinking any
[1:05:05] alcohol. And I I've I've run the
[1:05:07] experiment enough on myself to know,
[1:05:10] hey, I am generally better off going to
[1:05:13] bed a little bit hungry.
[1:05:14] >> Yeah.
[1:05:15] >> In that scenario,
[1:05:16] >> Yeah.
[1:05:17] >> than eating something.
[1:05:18] >> Plenty of glycogen in my muscles like,
[1:05:19] you know, it's no problem. I'm going to
[1:05:21] be fine. I'm not going to sleep.
[1:05:22] >> The truth is once you're asleep, it's
[1:05:23] fine anyway. It's just in those, you
[1:05:25] know, before you fall asleep. So, so
[1:05:26] that's I I kind of think is
[1:05:29] >> really really interesting. The other
[1:05:31] thing I was I was just going to share is
[1:05:33] one of the most important behaviors I do
[1:05:36] each day which I don't even think about
[1:05:37] anymore. It's automatic.
[1:05:39] At least one hour before bed if not 90
[1:05:44] minutes. I'm not working.
[1:05:46] >> Yeah.
[1:05:46] >> I mean I know it sounds just so obvious
[1:05:49] but I have disciplined myself. That
[1:05:52] laptop is off. I am not going to work.
[1:05:54] Actually it's really too I don't do
[1:05:56] work.
[1:05:57] >> Yeah. And for me that I think has had
[1:06:00] some of the biggest impacts because yeah
[1:06:03] we can talk about caffeine and alcohol
[1:06:04] and all those things and of course there
[1:06:06] are biological consequences of having
[1:06:09] stimulants and I get all that
[1:06:12] >> and you know for many years I don't have
[1:06:13] caffeine after 12:00 I know it affects
[1:06:15] me at night but I really felt that
[1:06:19] >> you know just I'm just sending different
[1:06:22] inputs to my brain. I'm like oh the day
[1:06:24] is over. We're now on relaxation time.
[1:06:26] That has been game changing for me.
[1:06:28] >> Yeah. I mean, like I said, I mean, it it
[1:06:30] we kind of go back like when we think
[1:06:32] about
[1:06:33] >> the circadian system, right? And you've
[1:06:36] got, you know, basically the photoic
[1:06:39] inputs, that's the light, right? That's
[1:06:41] telling. So, anytime your eyes are open,
[1:06:43] right, you're sending a signal to your
[1:06:45] superismatic nucleus, which is the
[1:06:47] control center of your brain, what kind
[1:06:49] of time of day it is, you know? So, if
[1:06:51] you are basking in bright lights at 10
[1:06:53] p.m., your body is going to think that
[1:06:56] is supposed to be awake, right? So, it's
[1:06:58] going to be sending all of those kind of
[1:06:59] signals.
[1:06:59] >> Yeah. And then you think you're a night
[1:07:01] owl.
[1:07:01] >> And you think you're a night owl, which
[1:07:02] >> you might be, but you might not be as
[1:07:04] well.
[1:07:04] >> You might not be. Right. So, that but
[1:07:06] that that signal when it when your body
[1:07:09] but your body still is craving
[1:07:13] darkness at that time. It's it's
[1:07:15] expecting darkness, but now you're
[1:07:18] giving it light, right? So now what
[1:07:20] you're doing is creating some confusion
[1:07:21] in your body.
[1:07:23] >> And if you're curious about the basis of
[1:07:25] aging and de disease, it's confusion at
[1:07:28] a cellular level.
[1:07:30] >> So when you're bypassing these kind of
[1:07:33] natur the natural light dark cycle, you
[1:07:36] create endogenous confusion. So if you
[1:07:41] get sick a lot, if you are struggling
[1:07:43] with symptoms um related to your
[1:07:47] menstrual cycle, parameopause,
[1:07:48] menopause, like you just feel like you
[1:07:49] can't get start with your light diet,
[1:07:52] >> right? That's just a great place to
[1:07:54] start. Like our body craves contrast. We
[1:07:57] want a lot of activity during the day.
[1:07:59] We want a lot of light during the day.
[1:08:00] We want food during the day. At night,
[1:08:03] we don't want light. We don't want food.
[1:08:05] We don't want activity. It's that
[1:08:07] simple. And there's a paper that was
[1:08:09] just published looking exactly at this
[1:08:10] contrast, right? Individuals who have
[1:08:14] really bright nights and dark days
[1:08:17] struggle with their mental health,
[1:08:19] right? Like this is not a secret, right?
[1:08:21] It's but what's crazy is I say this
[1:08:24] online, it's like heresy. I am being
[1:08:27] heretical, right? Like people are they
[1:08:29] come down to me like I'm I'm suggest
[1:08:31] like what I am suggesting is off the
[1:08:33] rails. And for me that's a comment of
[1:08:35] actually how far off the rails modern
[1:08:37] society is
[1:08:38] >> because for 99.9%
[1:08:40] of our revolution this was the norm. If
[1:08:43] you if you look at any time scale that
[1:08:46] matters right if you look at biology on
[1:08:48] the x- axis the y ais is just technology
[1:08:52] and just electric light food access like
[1:08:54] all of that right
[1:08:56] >> the delta is biology is flat there's no
[1:08:59] change we have not adapted or evolved to
[1:09:02] any of this techn technological change
[1:09:05] so there's a gap between our the
[1:09:09] technological advancements and our
[1:09:11] biology and that delta is
[1:09:13] and how we regulate our nervous system
[1:09:15] [laughter]
[1:09:16] to bring this full circle determines
[1:09:18] kind of how we manage modern life.
[1:09:21] >> Yeah. But even if we go back to those
[1:09:23] four behaviors
[1:09:24] >> right now, you could argue that,
[1:09:28] you know, reducing stress through breath
[1:09:30] work may not have been required for for
[1:09:33] lots of cultures, let's say, 10,000
[1:09:35] years ago. I don't know that to be true,
[1:09:37] but perhaps perhaps they were naturally
[1:09:40] mostly in parasympathetic. So relaxation
[1:09:43] state punctuated by a little bit of
[1:09:45] sympathetic stress now and again.
[1:09:49] >> The other three they probably all had,
[1:09:52] right?
[1:09:53] >> They weren't eating 15 hours a day. Was
[1:09:56] probably less than 12, right?
[1:09:58] >> Whether we call it zone 2 or low
[1:10:00] inensity movement, they were 100% moving
[1:10:03] their bodies every day.
[1:10:04] >> Women 7 miles, men 10. Yeah. Kilome,
[1:10:06] sorry.
[1:10:07] >> Right. And then they were getting
[1:10:08] morning light. They're not sitting
[1:10:10] around in the cave like, you know,
[1:10:11] scrolling their phone. They like it's
[1:10:13] time to get up and actually
[1:10:15] >> crack on with gathering or hunting or
[1:10:17] whatever you might do, right? So that's
[1:10:19] the crazy thing, right? We're now having
[1:10:21] to teach people
[1:10:23] >> and yes, you've got the data to prove
[1:10:25] it.
[1:10:27] >> But fundamentally,
[1:10:29] those four presses,
[1:10:31] >> they're just basic inputs that our
[1:10:34] physiology need to run. There's no qu I
[1:10:37] mean there is not a mental health
[1:10:38] disorder where circadian misalignment is
[1:10:41] not present.
[1:10:42] >> Yeah.
[1:10:42] >> You know I I I think you like that is
[1:10:45] the place to look.
[1:10:46] >> You start there if you can. Yes. And
[1:10:48] someone's got severe depression. They
[1:10:50] will struggle to do that. But the amount
[1:10:53] of people whose mental well-being
[1:10:54] improves dramatically when they engage
[1:10:57] in these quite simple behaviors.
[1:11:00] >> Yeah. The suggestion isn't that we go
[1:11:02] back to the savannah, right? Like that's
[1:11:03] not what I'm suggesting. But I am
[1:11:05] suggesting we need a strategy. And if
[1:11:06] you think you don't need a strategy to
[1:11:08] deal with kind of the traps of modern
[1:11:10] life, you're crazy. Like modern society
[1:11:13] is set up for us to fail.
[1:11:15] >> I It's just we it's set up for us to
[1:11:17] fail. And I think all we have to do is
[1:11:20] look at the global health data to
[1:11:22] understand that we are failing.
[1:11:24] >> Yeah. and and we just have to we have to
[1:11:26] get into cahoots with one another and
[1:11:28] figure out okay how do we get back to to
[1:11:30] a schedule that is more aligned with the
[1:11:33] natural light dark cycle at a very basic
[1:11:36] level and it and I say that and it
[1:11:38] everyone I know it sounds crazy but our
[1:11:42] mental physical emotional and I would
[1:11:44] argue our spir spiritual well-being is
[1:11:46] what's at stake here
[1:11:48] >> yeah
[1:11:50] there's so much more about um in
[1:11:53] inadverted commas physical health we
[1:11:55] could talk about,
[1:11:56] >> but I want to pivot a little bit um to
[1:12:00] my favorite part of your new book.
[1:12:03] >> It's the the middle section which you
[1:12:05] call the architecture within.
[1:12:07] >> And
[1:12:09] as I said at the start, I love the way
[1:12:10] that
[1:12:13] >> you demonstrate beautifully how they
[1:12:15] each affects each other, right? So, it
[1:12:17] isn't one or the other. That they're
[1:12:18] both important and
[1:12:20] >> you know, you start where you need to
[1:12:22] start, right? Some people will go in
[1:12:24] first, some people will go for those
[1:12:25] external behaviors first.
[1:12:28] >> But I but I I was sharing to you in my
[1:12:30] kitchen before we started recording how
[1:12:31] much I love the title aligned.
[1:12:33] >> So I think the secret to life is
[1:12:36] alignment, frankly. Um and alignment can
[1:12:39] be, you know, you can be aligned with
[1:12:43] your circadian rhythm.
[1:12:45] >> You can be aligned with your values,
[1:12:48] right? you can be internally aligned
[1:12:51] where your mind, body, and soul are all
[1:12:54] going in the same direction. It's a
[1:12:55] beautiful word that
[1:12:56] >> evokes so much I think.
[1:12:59] >> Um, but I want to read you a section
[1:13:01] from your personal readiness chapter
[1:13:03] that I
[1:13:04] >> I I really liked and how it connects
[1:13:09] health and well-being
[1:13:11] to deep alignment. Okay. You wrote this.
[1:13:14] There is a growing body of research
[1:13:15] highlighting the connection
[1:13:18] between living deeply aligned with
[1:13:20] values
[1:13:22] and an extended health span which is the
[1:13:24] portion of life spent in good health
[1:13:26] without chronic illness or disability.
[1:13:30] Our physiology
[1:13:32] even echoes our sense of purpose. heart
[1:13:36] rate variability, which you've talked
[1:13:38] about on on, you know, several times
[1:13:40] during this podcast so far,
[1:13:41] >> is consistently tied to purpose-driven
[1:13:45] living. I I love it. It's beautiful
[1:13:48] because we we treat these things as
[1:13:50] separate. Oh, I'm going to sort my
[1:13:52] health out.
[1:13:53] >> Oh, and then a different what's my
[1:13:56] purpose, right? I want I want to live
[1:13:58] with more purpose. As if these things
[1:14:00] are separate. So maybe talk to us about
[1:14:04] um you know what alignment means to you
[1:14:07] and why living deeply aligned with your
[1:14:11] values has such a profound impact on our
[1:14:12] health.
[1:14:13] >> Yeah. I mean everything that you just
[1:14:15] said is really I think the a feature of
[1:14:18] an integrated kind of center you know
[1:14:20] and that sounds like so woowoo right but
[1:14:22] it's it's everything the physical the
[1:14:24] mental the emotional the spiritual like
[1:14:27] >> it's
[1:14:29] it's all in us right in the in the sense
[1:14:32] of like it's there for us it's like we
[1:14:34] just have to tap it right we have to
[1:14:37] just say all right this is actually who
[1:14:39] I want to be in the world and I think to
[1:14:42] purpose is is very much related to your
[1:14:45] identity, right? So figuring out who do
[1:14:48] I actually want to be in the world and I
[1:14:50] and I take you in that chapter I kind of
[1:14:52] take you through some exercises and
[1:14:53] there's more in the workbook where
[1:14:55] people can kind of workshop on their own
[1:14:58] like but I I think that's a really
[1:14:59] fundamental question right like I want
[1:15:02] to I want to be a person who lives my
[1:15:03] values with joy and energy that is my
[1:15:06] identity right and everything that I do
[1:15:08] during the day is going to back into
[1:15:10] that identity
[1:15:12] >> now identity doesn't have to be fixed
[1:15:14] right it's going to evolve especially
[1:15:15] like you know, who my daughter is today,
[1:15:18] she's n, you know, she's 18, is going to
[1:15:20] be very different than probably who she
[1:15:21] is at 25. But kind of the core of who
[1:15:24] she is probably doesn't change that
[1:15:25] much, right?
[1:15:26] But but I think in order for us to come
[1:15:29] to a conclusion around what is our
[1:15:31] purpose today and how is that
[1:15:34] influencing how the choices I make today
[1:15:38] is one of the most important I think um
[1:15:44] exercises that you can engage in
[1:15:46] consistently. I think about my values
[1:15:49] every day
[1:15:50] >> and I ask myself at the end of the day
[1:15:52] when I look myself in the mirror, did I
[1:15:54] live my values today? And sometimes yes,
[1:15:56] sometimes no, you know, and but that's
[1:15:59] like the scorecard I keep and that's the
[1:16:01] only one that matters to me because if I
[1:16:03] can live my values, like everything else
[1:16:04] is going to pretty much work out for
[1:16:06] itself, you know, and my mental health
[1:16:08] matters, my physical health matters. So
[1:16:10] if I look myself at the end of the day
[1:16:11] and I didn't like move my body in the
[1:16:13] way that I needed to move my body, well,
[1:16:16] I know that I'm not living my values.
[1:16:18] I'm not being the person I aspire to be.
[1:16:19] I'm not creating the conditions to be
[1:16:22] the person I aspire to be. And that's
[1:16:24] really I think when we're designing our
[1:16:26] life, right, we only get one.
[1:16:29] >> We only get one. So when you're
[1:16:31] designing your life, you need to think
[1:16:32] about what are the conditions that I
[1:16:34] need to engage in across the day for
[1:16:37] whatever your value, whatever your
[1:16:39] identity is for that to be true. What
[1:16:41] are what do I need to engage in? And I
[1:16:42] go back to that principle of
[1:16:43] non-neutrality. Like doing that exercise
[1:16:46] where you're really thinking about, all
[1:16:48] right, if if this is my identity, does
[1:16:50] this behavior support it or does it
[1:16:52] detract from it?
[1:16:54] And then you start to see where you're
[1:16:55] sabotaging your own life.
[1:16:58] And so, you know, purpose, I think, is
[1:17:00] so powerful. And and but it it's you got
[1:17:04] to sit with it and you need to figure
[1:17:06] out, okay, what does this actually mean,
[1:17:08] right? Because that's going to be
[1:17:09] driving your behaviors. It should be
[1:17:11] driving your behaviors.
[1:17:13] >> Yeah.
[1:17:15] It's so interesting this stuff.
[1:17:18] Some people um will no doubt Chris be
[1:17:22] thinking
[1:17:24] I don't know where to start.
[1:17:25] >> Yeah.
[1:17:26] >> Right. What what do you mean my values?
[1:17:27] My I've I've got a job. I need to go to
[1:17:30] my job. I need to
[1:17:32] >> um
[1:17:33] >> you know
[1:17:34] >> earn the money so I can pay the bills
[1:17:36] and getting through each day
[1:17:38] >> is a struggle.
[1:17:40] >> Is thinking about values important for
[1:17:43] that person as well?
[1:17:44] >> It I mean I think for everyone, right?
[1:17:46] Like I think I mean you we see it in the
[1:17:48] research right like our long-term health
[1:17:51] is very much tied to our sense of
[1:17:53] purpose and meaning
[1:17:54] >> and and the thing is you you don't just
[1:17:57] stumble upon meaning you create it you
[1:17:59] build it into your life
[1:18:01] >> you know what are the things that bring
[1:18:03] you actual joy you know and and I think
[1:18:06] that's also one of the traps of
[1:18:08] modernity like we don't actually have
[1:18:10] enough time with our own thoughts
[1:18:12] [snorts]
[1:18:14] >> like we're constantly pulling ourselves
[1:18:16] from the present moment. So, I I think a
[1:18:20] lot of these questions that I invite
[1:18:21] people to to think about are are I don't
[1:18:25] know if they're questions people are
[1:18:26] asking of themselves as intentionally as
[1:18:28] maybe we could or should, right, when it
[1:18:31] comes to like living a purpose- driven
[1:18:32] life. So, I think just just carving out
[1:18:37] 10 minutes to just think about all
[1:18:39] right, what like actually brings me joy?
[1:18:43] And I I think joy can mean a lot of
[1:18:45] different things to a lot of different
[1:18:46] people, right? But that and that's a
[1:18:47] good thing. Yeah. You know, um and then
[1:18:50] what are in order for me to experience
[1:18:51] joy if that's that's something that's
[1:18:52] important to me. What needs to be true
[1:18:54] about my day?
[1:18:56] >> All right. Well, what are the who are
[1:18:58] the what are the people and the the
[1:19:00] outlets, right? Do I have those people
[1:19:02] and outlets in my life that allow that
[1:19:05] allow me to experience that joy, you
[1:19:07] know? So joy could be a value in of
[1:19:10] itself, you know, and and
[1:19:13] Do I have the skills and expertise? You
[1:19:15] know, maybe it's personal growth, right?
[1:19:17] Like how do you and when I talk about
[1:19:20] kind of the scaffolding around
[1:19:21] psychological health, right? It's peace,
[1:19:24] purpose, efficacy, um autonomy, and
[1:19:26] connection, right? And
[1:19:28] >> the purpose you want to discover your
[1:19:30] identity, right, inside your purpose,
[1:19:31] like who do I aspire to be in the world,
[1:19:33] right? And then that helps you back into
[1:19:34] your values, which helps you have a
[1:19:36] purposeful, meaning
[1:19:38] >> meaningful life. Efficacy. Do I have the
[1:19:40] skills and resources to do what's asked
[1:19:42] of me? Right? So, if you are not able to
[1:19:45] live your purpose, right? What kind of
[1:19:47] skills do you need to build?
[1:19:49] >> Right? If you know that energy is really
[1:19:51] important to you and you want to be able
[1:19:53] to be alert during the day and be in a
[1:19:55] good mood, well, what is that? What kind
[1:19:58] of skills do you need to build to make
[1:19:59] that happen? Maybe it's like, I need to
[1:20:00] figure out how to work out.
[1:20:02] >> I need in order to have more energy, I
[1:20:04] need to get fit,
[1:20:05] >> right? um or you know if you're getting
[1:20:07] sick a lot or you know you basically
[1:20:09] what are the skills that I need to build
[1:20:11] what are the resources I need to build
[1:20:12] and that could also mean creating some
[1:20:15] boundaries in your life
[1:20:17] >> and that's where to skip to the
[1:20:18] connection piece do people support who
[1:20:21] you want to be in the world you know
[1:20:23] there's a lot of I think when we look
[1:20:25] around at the people in our life there's
[1:20:28] a lot of people that don't actually
[1:20:29] deserve to be there worthy of us they're
[1:20:32] not worthy of our time right they hurt
[1:20:35] us in ways that um uh keep us from our
[1:20:39] living our our purpose, right? And and
[1:20:41] so the the the quicker you can kind of I
[1:20:44] think um refine your circle, the better
[1:20:46] because that also, you know, impacts the
[1:20:48] quality of your life massively,
[1:20:50] >> right? So a lot of what I'm talking
[1:20:52] about is probably not additional stuff.
[1:20:55] It's actually subtracting stuff.
[1:20:58] >> And you know there's a there's a quote
[1:21:01] by Nibal Ravi Kant who um I think is
[1:21:04] it's great and I and I think about it in
[1:21:06] the context of of peace.
[1:21:08] Um
[1:21:10] desire is a contract you make with
[1:21:12] yourself to be unhappy until you get
[1:21:15] what you want. So it's not about more.
[1:21:19] It's about not having fuzzy desires,
[1:21:22] right? Like thinking about like what do
[1:21:24] I actually need in my life
[1:21:27] >> to feel that sense of purpose and
[1:21:28] meaning?
[1:21:30] >> What needs to be true?
[1:21:32] >> And often times we'll find there's too
[1:21:35] much going on in our lives for us to
[1:21:37] actually focus on that. So we need to
[1:21:39] subtract.
[1:21:40] >> Yeah.
[1:21:41] >> Not add.
[1:21:44] Some of the best books I think are
[1:21:46] written when we have
[1:21:50] >> a real deep personal
[1:21:55] >> desire to to learn about things that
[1:21:58] have affected us and how to move on. And
[1:22:01] as you were talking then
[1:22:03] about
[1:22:06] how some people in our life don't
[1:22:08] deserve to be there,
[1:22:10] >> there was a really strong emotion there
[1:22:12] that I could feel.
[1:22:14] >> Uh you mentioned at the start about some
[1:22:16] aspects of your childhood and your mom
[1:22:18] >> and she struggled
[1:22:20] >> with alcoholism I think you were saying.
[1:22:23] >> Is this a personal book?
[1:22:25] >> Very much so. Yeah. I think one of the
[1:22:28] reasons why I wrote chapter one, the
[1:22:32] alchemy of adversity is and I and I have
[1:22:35] gotten, you know, lots of messages from
[1:22:38] folks who are like, I just assumed your
[1:22:39] life was perfect, you know, and it
[1:22:43] wasn't, you know, and and a lot of that
[1:22:47] struggle that was kind of the first half
[1:22:50] of my life, I think gave me the ability
[1:22:53] to write this book, you know, cuz I had
[1:22:55] to figure it out for myself or you know
[1:22:58] I was going down such a dark path that
[1:23:01] if I didn't figure it out like I would
[1:23:03] not be here today and and so you know I
[1:23:07] had that own kind of moment of reckoning
[1:23:10] for myself where you know I need to you
[1:23:13] know I mean forgiveness is is a big
[1:23:15] piece of of this puzzle right like I had
[1:23:19] an abuser you know my grandfather abused
[1:23:21] me for 10 years of my life you know and
[1:23:23] I needed to figure out how do I move on
[1:23:25] from that how do I not allow this to
[1:23:27] define me, you know, and and knowing
[1:23:30] that, you know, my mom's struggle, my
[1:23:32] mom's pain, that was not my fault, you
[1:23:35] know, but a lot of the coping mechanisms
[1:23:38] that I had developed in response to that
[1:23:41] were maladaptive as an adult, you know,
[1:23:44] I,
[1:23:45] >> you know, what was viewed on the outside
[1:23:48] as gosh, you know, so ambitious, so
[1:23:50] gosh, an athlete and Olympian and all of
[1:23:52] these things, you know, and I didn't
[1:23:55] have any joy
[1:23:56] I could not access joy
[1:24:00] and and so I think for me I if I wanted
[1:24:06] to hopefully accelerate people's wisdom
[1:24:08] around some of this stuff and to know
[1:24:09] that we are just in this together right
[1:24:11] and
[1:24:12] >> and I just think that this is this is a
[1:24:15] short life but it has the the
[1:24:17] opportunity to be a beautiful life you
[1:24:19] know if we understand
[1:24:21] where to focus our attention you know
[1:24:23] and and and what I try to outline in
[1:24:25] this book is just the basic principles,
[1:24:27] right? And you can take it in any
[1:24:28] direction that you want to go, but these
[1:24:30] are the things based on certainly my
[1:24:32] life experience, but also a lot of the
[1:24:35] evidence that exists in the in the in
[1:24:38] the science, you know, around our
[1:24:39] physiology and our psychology, you know,
[1:24:41] I'm standing on the shoulder of of just
[1:24:44] incredible social psychologists and
[1:24:46] Edward DC and Richard Ryan and Albert
[1:24:48] Bura and, you know, Russell Foster and,
[1:24:52] you know, all these just scientists,
[1:24:53] right? you know, people like yourself
[1:24:55] who bring me inspiration every single
[1:24:56] day. And and so this is an amalgam of
[1:24:59] kind of all of that work too on on top
[1:25:01] of this deep personal experience. So,
[1:25:03] it's a long answer. Um, yes, it's it's
[1:25:06] deeply personal.
[1:25:08] >> I mean, first of all, I'm I'm I'm sorry
[1:25:09] for what happened to you
[1:25:11] >> when you were a child. Um,
[1:25:14] I feel
[1:25:16] listening to you and, you know, I
[1:25:19] followed your work for a few years. we
[1:25:21] spoke on this podcast, you know, two or
[1:25:23] three years ago, um, reading the new
[1:25:26] book,
[1:25:29] you know, I I think
[1:25:31] I think it's clear that this is
[1:25:33] something that really matters and it's
[1:25:35] something that you've lived
[1:25:37] >> as well, which I think makes it a much
[1:25:39] more powerful book actually because it's
[1:25:41] one thing to measure data and say, well,
[1:25:42] the data shows this and the data shows
[1:25:44] that. Okay, great.
[1:25:46] And then on a human level,
[1:25:49] >> there's this other aspect which is this
[1:25:51] is a lady who's been through it and I
[1:25:53] think has come out the other side
[1:25:55] >> and wants to share with people that you
[1:25:58] can also come out the other side.
[1:26:00] >> Yeah, you can.
[1:26:01] >> You mentioned forgiveness there and I I
[1:26:04] think about and I have spoken about
[1:26:05] forgiveness a lot over the years
[1:26:08] >> and I've always found it to be quite a
[1:26:11] divisive topic understandably. Okay.
[1:26:14] given what you just said about your
[1:26:17] childhoods,
[1:26:19] >> you know, how do you think about
[1:26:20] forgiveness? Well, I just I think for me
[1:26:23] um it was associated with just feelings
[1:26:26] of anger, you know, and resentment and
[1:26:30] and I knew that if I didn't let go of
[1:26:32] that, it was going to just continue to
[1:26:35] haunt me, you know, and and it I don't
[1:26:38] have to forgive
[1:26:40] um the actions, you know, but I needed
[1:26:45] to
[1:26:47] develop a perspective that allowed me to
[1:26:50] release the anger um that I felt and the
[1:26:54] only path to that was to forgive. And
[1:26:57] when I was working with um I was at the
[1:27:00] University of Iowa at the time and um
[1:27:02] and I was working with a a psychiatrist
[1:27:04] and
[1:27:05] I remember um you know he he he said to
[1:27:09] me that you know we don't you don't have
[1:27:11] to
[1:27:13] excuse or um
[1:27:16] you know uh it's it's not forgiveness is
[1:27:19] not about saying what happened to you
[1:27:22] was was was right like that. That's not
[1:27:24] what forgiveness is.
[1:27:25] releasing the hold that that has on you,
[1:27:30] you know, and and so that was that was
[1:27:33] the the project for me was like, all
[1:27:34] right, how do I actually get to a place
[1:27:36] and you know, and in those conversations
[1:27:38] like it's stuff that I never talked
[1:27:40] about, but you know, my my grandfather
[1:27:42] was um he's an Episcopalian priest
[1:27:45] actually. Um but his whole life he he
[1:27:48] was uh adopted and bounced from foster
[1:27:51] home to foster home to foster home. you
[1:27:53] know, he was he didn't have an easy
[1:27:55] life. He and I he probably went into the
[1:27:58] seminary to try to escape his demons,
[1:28:01] you know, and and get, you know, who
[1:28:02] knows? But I I I just tried so
[1:28:04] desperately to look at that scenario
[1:28:06] from the lens of when he was a kid.
[1:28:09] >> Yeah.
[1:28:10] >> What happened to him, you know, and and
[1:28:12] that helped me a lot, you know, and and
[1:28:14] I and I carry that forward and I write
[1:28:16] about that in the book. just little
[1:28:18] things like someone cuts me off on that,
[1:28:20] you know, like the like maybe they had a
[1:28:22] hard day like I just always put myself
[1:28:24] in someone's shoes to and assume the
[1:28:26] best and I and I think in in today's
[1:28:28] world like we just tend to assume the
[1:28:30] worst. Yeah. That's like our default,
[1:28:32] you know, and that's exhausting. Like if
[1:28:34] you just assume best intentions
[1:28:36] generally, and I'm not telling people to
[1:28:38] be naive, right? Need to keep your head
[1:28:40] on a swivel, of course. But but but also
[1:28:43] like I think we're inherently good and
[1:28:47] and I have a wild belief in our capacity
[1:28:50] for good and and I I just Yeah,
[1:28:54] >> that's Thank you. First of all, thank
[1:28:56] you for sharing. It's really beautiful.
[1:28:58] Um beautiful and empowering, I what you
[1:29:01] just said for people,
[1:29:03] it it also links back to how we started
[1:29:05] this conversation about the autonomic
[1:29:07] nervous system, right?
[1:29:09] >> We think the worst of people when we
[1:29:11] don't have control of our autonomic
[1:29:13] nervous system. And of course, trauma,
[1:29:16] there's a whole chapter on trauma in
[1:29:17] this book.
[1:29:18] >> Trauma leaves an imprint on the nervous
[1:29:21] system, right? So, it's the nervous
[1:29:22] system is more likely to be reactive.
[1:29:24] you're more likely to think the the
[1:29:26] person cutting you up was doing it
[1:29:29] intentionally, even though it it
[1:29:31] literally had nothing to do with
[1:29:33] >> mechanisms in your brain even like it's
[1:29:35] just wild.
[1:29:36] >> Yeah. But but even what you said about
[1:29:38] trying to understand
[1:29:40] >> your grandfather's life.
[1:29:41] >> Yeah.
[1:29:42] >> Whenever I try and help people with
[1:29:44] forgiveness and and I I totally get that
[1:29:46] this can be challenging for people
[1:29:48] especially given some of the things that
[1:29:50] have happened in the world.
[1:29:52] I do believe and I found this in my own
[1:29:54] life that curiosity
[1:29:56] >> is the way to get there.
[1:29:59] >> Not judgment.
[1:30:00] >> Yeah.
[1:30:00] >> Judgment will keep you locked. It won't
[1:30:03] allow you to move on. And I understand
[1:30:05] where the judgment comes from. Right. So
[1:30:07] I'm not saying I don't I understand it.
[1:30:09] >> Yeah.
[1:30:09] >> You're not you ain't going to move on if
[1:30:11] you if you're judging.
[1:30:13] >> But if you can
[1:30:15] >> just start to open the door to curiosity
[1:30:18] like why did that person act like that?
[1:30:20] I don't like what they did. Why?
[1:30:23] >> Yeah.
[1:30:24] >> It just starts to soften the
[1:30:26] relationship with things. I'm not saying
[1:30:28] it's for you. I would never I would
[1:30:29] never dare to talk about someone's
[1:30:31] experience and how they found it. But
[1:30:32] since you've gone down that path,
[1:30:36] >> what has the impact been on you?
[1:30:38] >> I mean, I think I I look at when I feel
[1:30:41] emotions bubble up, I'm like, is that an
[1:30:43] emotion of trust or is that an emotion
[1:30:45] of fear? And to your exact point, you
[1:30:48] know, and I talk about that in in the
[1:30:50] fear and trust chapter is you really
[1:30:52] want to step back and like almost be
[1:30:54] like a third person like observer, you
[1:30:57] know, and just be like and get curious
[1:30:59] about it, you know, and why am I feeling
[1:31:00] insecure? Why am I defensive? Why? You
[1:31:04] know, like just you ask yourself that
[1:31:06] question and that level of awareness
[1:31:08] >> will put you back into that
[1:31:10] parasympathetic state
[1:31:12] >> back into feeling just a little bit of a
[1:31:14] sense of agency over that emotion
[1:31:17] >> and and be like, does this actually need
[1:31:20] an action or is this just something I
[1:31:22] need to let go? And like you just try to
[1:31:24] like it's I I think what where people go
[1:31:27] wrong is they try to suppress it or
[1:31:28] ignore it or and and I think that that
[1:31:30] is not the path. Then I I did that for
[1:31:33] 24 years, you know, um until I decided
[1:31:36] or I was forced to confront all the
[1:31:39] stuff that had happened in my life. And
[1:31:41] I don't think we have to wait, you know.
[1:31:43] I think and and not in your when you're
[1:31:46] ready, it will happen for you. But I
[1:31:49] think just as a
[1:31:51] practice, thinking about our emotions
[1:31:55] as either trust emotions or fear
[1:31:57] emotions is like an awesome place to
[1:31:58] start. Really empowering. It helps you
[1:32:01] understand, wow, I have a lot of
[1:32:03] fear-based emotions.
[1:32:04] >> Yeah.
[1:32:05] >> Right. I feel jealous. I feel insecure.
[1:32:07] I feel, you know, whatever the thing is,
[1:32:09] right? And and get curious about it and
[1:32:12] then think about, all right, how can I
[1:32:14] replace this with a trustbased emotion,
[1:32:16] right? And back to the autonomic nervous
[1:32:18] system. And there's good data around
[1:32:20] fear and trust. Just generally
[1:32:22] trustbased emotions like are
[1:32:24] >> they are growthoriented. They open you
[1:32:26] up to the world, right? like you have
[1:32:28] you and not to mention you invite that
[1:32:30] energy in
[1:32:31] >> if you're afraid like that's the energy
[1:32:34] you're going to pull into your life,
[1:32:36] >> right? And it it doesn't have to happen
[1:32:38] all at once, right? But it it's just
[1:32:40] this recognition of how can I build in
[1:32:43] these trust based emotions more often,
[1:32:45] you know?
[1:32:45] >> Yeah. I I I think it's a great framework
[1:32:47] to to look at life. I' I've I've thought
[1:32:51] and said for many years that all of our
[1:32:53] behaviors either come from love or fear.
[1:32:57] >> Yeah. which is kind of trust or fear,
[1:32:59] right? Same thing in a slightly
[1:33:00] different language. And
[1:33:02] >> um there are so many emotions that we
[1:33:06] feel, but they're actually downstream,
[1:33:08] right? So anger, as you say, jealousy,
[1:33:10] envy,
[1:33:12] >> um anxiety, whatever it might be,
[1:33:15] >> yeah,
[1:33:15] >> these are downstream from fear. So
[1:33:17] that's one arm, that's a nervous system
[1:33:21] that is overstimulated, that is, you
[1:33:24] know, hypervigilant.
[1:33:25] >> Hyper vigilant, right? on the other
[1:33:27] side,
[1:33:27] >> bracing for the worst.
[1:33:30] >> Yeah, exactly. The other side,
[1:33:32] >> you know, it comes from love. Love for
[1:33:34] ourselves, love for the world around us,
[1:33:35] love for other people.
[1:33:37] >> That's where uh joy comes in, empathy,
[1:33:41] compassion, curiosity, forgiveness, and
[1:33:44] and I actually think it's a beautiful
[1:33:46] framework to look at the world through.
[1:33:48] It's like, and you know, let's say
[1:33:50] someone's tuning in to this podcast for
[1:33:51] health, right?
[1:33:52] >> Yeah. and they're like, "Yeah, I like
[1:33:54] what Kristen said about doing zone 2
[1:33:57] exercise every day. I'm going to do that
[1:33:59] now." Okay, great. And then they try for
[1:34:02] a few weeks.
[1:34:03] If
[1:34:05] they're not able to do that, right? And
[1:34:08] let's say that there's a capabilities
[1:34:09] there in their life because we know that
[1:34:10] there's a big gap between knowledge and
[1:34:12] implementation. Those people know what
[1:34:14] to do. They're still not doing it.
[1:34:17] I think a lot of the time what fills
[1:34:19] that gap is love or fear, right? Are you
[1:34:23] making that change because you love
[1:34:24] yourself, because you trust yourself,
[1:34:26] because you know you deserve that?
[1:34:29] >> Or is part of you,
[1:34:32] >> is there part of you that doesn't like
[1:34:33] itself?
[1:34:34] >> Yeah.
[1:34:34] >> Right. You don't like who you are.
[1:34:35] You're trying to beat yourself up with
[1:34:37] that behavior, whatever it might be. And
[1:34:38] I I've genuinely found in my own life
[1:34:42] my definition of success is wrong.
[1:34:46] How much of today did you live with an
[1:34:48] open heart?
[1:34:50] >> That's it for me. I I I think at this
[1:34:52] point in my life I've come to that
[1:34:54] conclusion which is
[1:34:55] >> that's the only thing that matters
[1:34:57] wrong. And if you can live your life
[1:34:58] with an open heart
[1:35:00] >> or notice when it's starting to close
[1:35:02] >> and go wait a minute I'm not going to
[1:35:04] let that happen. I'm going to keep it
[1:35:05] open here.
[1:35:07] good things start to happen. It is
[1:35:09] amazing because I've been trying it and
[1:35:11] good things happen.
[1:35:12] >> David White has a beautiful essay on
[1:35:15] openheartedness.
[1:35:16] >> Wow.
[1:35:17] >> Um yeah, he he's a kind of a poet
[1:35:19] philosopher from Ireland and um he's
[1:35:21] like just one of my favorite um poets, I
[1:35:24] suppose. Um
[1:35:25] >> and he he talks about this concept of
[1:35:28] openheartedness. And I think what I love
[1:35:31] about it is he always reminds us that
[1:35:34] open-heartedness in the face of knowing
[1:35:36] that there's heartbreak, right? On the
[1:35:39] other side of that, right, when you
[1:35:41] give, when you open your heart to a
[1:35:42] love, to a work, right, the possibility
[1:35:46] of failure is there.
[1:35:47] >> Yeah.
[1:35:47] >> Right. But you have to have an open
[1:35:49] heart anyway, you know, and and I think
[1:35:51] that to me is like this whole project,
[1:35:53] right? is how do we love in the face of
[1:35:56] of that uncertainty, you know, and and
[1:35:58] how do we kind of come to the day with
[1:36:02] this big heart, you know, that's that's
[1:36:04] kind and open and loving,
[1:36:06] >> you know, I think that that can be a
[1:36:07] challenge, you know, for a lot of folks
[1:36:08] who've been hurt, you know, is is God,
[1:36:10] how do I
[1:36:11] >> how do I just do this anyway?
[1:36:13] >> Yeah, it can be a challenge.
[1:36:16] >> And it's still possible.
[1:36:17] >> It is.
[1:36:18] >> It's still possible. You mentioned David
[1:36:19] White
[1:36:20] >> in this middle section, the the
[1:36:22] architecture within
[1:36:24] You basically make this case that if
[1:36:26] fear is overwhelming your nervous system
[1:36:30] then this uh team framework tea is a
[1:36:33] useful way to look at the impact it's
[1:36:35] having right
[1:36:36] >> time expectations attachment and memory
[1:36:39] >> in the memory section
[1:36:42] you quote David White you talk about
[1:36:45] this idea that tending to our memory is
[1:36:48] a spiritual practice and a physiological
[1:36:51] one which I found really really
[1:36:52] interesting thing and then you say in
[1:36:55] his essay nostalgia, David White writes
[1:36:57] that nostalgia is not an indulgence in
[1:36:59] the past but a reaching back to
[1:37:02] something essential that has been lost.
[1:37:06] What does that mean?
[1:37:08] >> I think what he's saying is that it can
[1:37:11] be just when something surfaces from
[1:37:14] your past, it's kind of a comment on
[1:37:16] what matters to you in that moment. And
[1:37:19] it's I think he's inviting us to just
[1:37:22] investigate, you know, and examine hm
[1:37:25] why did that surface?
[1:37:27] >> Why what what why do I need to pull that
[1:37:29] forward right now?
[1:37:30] >> And that and it could be really useful
[1:37:32] for you in some way. Maybe it's a
[1:37:34] perspective on a current relationship
[1:37:36] you're in or you know a learning from
[1:37:38] the past that you need to make sure that
[1:37:40] you don't repeat in the future. And so
[1:37:43] memory can be really powerful and isn't
[1:37:47] always um you know I think it's the
[1:37:49] distinction, you know, of just you're
[1:37:53] not living in the past, but you're using
[1:37:55] your memory as a gift to inform how you
[1:38:00] live more present.
[1:38:03] >> And and I think too like
[1:38:06] when something from your past keeps
[1:38:08] surfacing, get curious about it, right?
[1:38:11] Is that creating fear? Is that
[1:38:14] >> keeping you from being able to move
[1:38:15] forward with your life in a way that is
[1:38:18] adaptive and functional and healthy?
[1:38:21] Right?
[1:38:22] >> So memory while sometimes unnerving and
[1:38:26] unsettling um usually is a comment on
[1:38:30] what is ma what matters to you and
[1:38:31] something you probably need to think a
[1:38:33] little bit more about.
[1:38:34] >> Yeah, I really appreciate hearing your
[1:38:36] perspective there. I actually was
[1:38:38] reading this section I think on the
[1:38:41] plane back from Dublin on Monday, right?
[1:38:43] >> Oh wow. Yeah.
[1:38:45] >> And you know I I I touched on Bonjovi
[1:38:48] earlier on in this conversation. But
[1:38:50] let's give you a bit of context and why
[1:38:52] I thought of my relationship with that
[1:38:53] band when I read that
[1:38:55] >> passage from from David White in your
[1:38:57] book is because
[1:39:00] you know as a teenage boy growing up in
[1:39:03] the north of England, the son of
[1:39:04] immigrant parents,
[1:39:07] >> I don't know what it was, but there was
[1:39:10] something about that band
[1:39:12] >> that just spoke to me as a kid. Like I
[1:39:15] was hooked. I would listen to
[1:39:18] everything. I'd buy every bside. I had
[1:39:20] posters everywhere. I had flags. I
[1:39:22] literally I I was just obsessed. I saw
[1:39:25] my mom the other day. She's like, "Are
[1:39:26] you still doing that whole bonjour with
[1:39:28] thing?" Like, "Oh my god, that's so
[1:39:29] cute."
[1:39:30] >> You know, I've I've seen them over 30
[1:39:31] times in concert, right? I've been all
[1:39:33] over the world to watch them.
[1:39:34] >> Wow.
[1:39:34] >> And
[1:39:36] you know, for the last few years, I
[1:39:37] haven't listened that much, right? I
[1:39:40] started listening again last October
[1:39:43] because, you know, I got offered the
[1:39:46] chance to speak to John on my show,
[1:39:49] which I was like, [laughter]
[1:39:50] >> just incredible.
[1:39:51] >> And we had a beautiful conversation.
[1:39:54] And a big part of the story with uh
[1:39:57] Bonjovi is that John has been losing his
[1:40:00] voice. He had an operation four years
[1:40:01] ago. He didn't know if he'd ever be able
[1:40:03] to sing again, let alone perform again.
[1:40:05] And he has literally done 3 hours of
[1:40:09] rehab a day, 5 days a week for for many
[1:40:13] years. I think three or four years.
[1:40:14] >> Jesus.
[1:40:14] >> Right.
[1:40:16] >> And Sunday night was really powerful
[1:40:19] because I think a lot of us felt
[1:40:21] nostalgia.
[1:40:22] >> Yeah.
[1:40:23] >> Right. A lot of us Yeah. we grew up with
[1:40:25] that band. We never thought we were
[1:40:28] going to see them again. I never thought
[1:40:30] I'd see them again with John's voice
[1:40:32] sounding that good. I was like thinking,
[1:40:34] what kind of work have you been doing to
[1:40:36] get your voice back there
[1:40:38] >> from nearly not having it? And what's
[1:40:40] really interesting is that throughout
[1:40:41] the concert,
[1:40:43] >> I started to feel
[1:40:45] >> this joy within me that I haven't felt
[1:40:48] in years, Kristen. Wow.
[1:40:49] >> Like I'm coming home. I think I said
[1:40:51] before, I think I'm driving my wife nuts
[1:40:53] at the moment cuz I'm literally singing
[1:40:54] Bon Joy songs. I'm getting my guitar
[1:40:56] out. I'm starting to sing Wanted Dead or
[1:40:59] Alive and all this sort of stuff I used
[1:41:00] to sing as a teenager.
[1:41:02] And I'm going again to Wembley this
[1:41:04] weekend to see them.
[1:41:05] >> I love it.
[1:41:06] >> I mean, I I just can't get enough of it.
[1:41:08] But it's
[1:41:09] >> nostalgia.
[1:41:10] >> It's It's like what he says, right?
[1:41:13] >> It's not an indulgence in the past. No,
[1:41:15] something that was not an indulgence in
[1:41:16] the past. It was a reaching back to
[1:41:18] something essential that had been lost.
[1:41:20] >> Yeah.
[1:41:21] >> There was a part of me
[1:41:25] >> that missed all that.
[1:41:26] >> Yeah. Yeah. And you need it in your life
[1:41:28] right now.
[1:41:28] >> Oh my god. I got a different energy this
[1:41:31] week. I'm like and [laughter] I'm I feel
[1:41:33] like a kid again. Like I'm 49. I feel
[1:41:35] like a kid. I'm like, "Oh my god, Friday
[1:41:37] night, Sunday night, I'm a Wembley. Come
[1:41:39] on. I can't wait." I love that. And
[1:41:41] that's okay. Right. So,
[1:41:44] >> trying to bring this back onto uh the
[1:41:46] topic of this conversation. You know,
[1:41:48] >> what what does joy do for our nervous
[1:41:51] systems? What does joy do for our HIV? I
[1:41:54] mean, I'd love to dismbiguate between
[1:41:56] kind of joy and happiness, you know, and
[1:41:58] um and and Dr. Judith [clears throat]
[1:42:00] Joseph, I don't know if you ever talked
[1:42:01] to her, but she wrote a a book called
[1:42:03] High Functioning Depression, and I
[1:42:05] interviewed her um maybe a year and a
[1:42:07] half ago now, but she's brilliant and
[1:42:09] someone you should have on the podcast.
[1:42:11] I I just I love I love the way she
[1:42:13] approaches things. But uh and she's so
[1:42:15] damn funny. She's hilarious. Like the
[1:42:16] stuff she creates, I'm like, how do you
[1:42:18] even do all this? But anyway, high
[1:42:19] functioning depression. So that's
[1:42:21] basically like that anidonia like that
[1:42:23] feeling of just meh like everyone on the
[1:42:26] outside and I I was a high functioning
[1:42:27] I'd had high functioning depression for
[1:42:29] sure self diagnosed this is not in the
[1:42:31] DSM but um but I I think they're working
[1:42:34] toward that because I think so many
[1:42:36] people can identify with this idea that
[1:42:38] you are able to function really well in
[1:42:40] your day-to-day life. You might be a
[1:42:42] surgeon, you might be a high performing
[1:42:43] athlete. You might be, you know, one of
[1:42:46] the best coaches in the country.
[1:42:47] whatever it is, but you cannot access
[1:42:49] joy. You have high functioning
[1:42:52] depression. And so I I think to me
[1:42:56] happiness
[1:42:58] can be felt whilst being depressed. And
[1:43:01] happiness is through kind of things like
[1:43:03] that are external to you that bring you
[1:43:05] kind of that level of happiness.
[1:43:08] Joy, I think, is felt from my
[1:43:11] perspective. It's something that's
[1:43:13] internal
[1:43:14] that you're accessing. Like, it is
[1:43:17] something that is with you that doesn't
[1:43:19] require actually anyone else
[1:43:21] necessarily. Like, it's kind of like
[1:43:23] this inside job of just this deep sense
[1:43:27] of peace,
[1:43:28] >> right? And I think that there's external
[1:43:31] things that can ignite that like a Bonjo
[1:43:33] a John Bonjovi concert, right? can
[1:43:36] ignite something inside you, but that is
[1:43:39] lived experience in you.
[1:43:40] >> Yeah.
[1:43:41] >> And and it's it's so it's not John
[1:43:43] necessarily, right? Like [clears throat]
[1:43:44] give yourself more credit, I guess. I
[1:43:46] guess and that's where I think we
[1:43:47] outsource our joy and and kind of say,
[1:43:50] "Oh, it's that thing that's giving me
[1:43:51] the joy." No, it's like it's your
[1:43:53] relationship to that thing
[1:43:55] >> that you've created inside you. this
[1:43:58] this internal compass, right, that that
[1:44:01] is allowing you to access that joy, you
[1:44:04] know, and and so I feel like it joy is
[1:44:05] just a fundamentally different
[1:44:08] >> lever, you know, than than happiness and
[1:44:11] that it's something that you own and
[1:44:13] that you can cultivate within yourself.
[1:44:15] >> Yeah.
[1:44:16] >> In ways that I think happiness is a
[1:44:17] little bit more elusive.
[1:44:18] >> Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah. I really
[1:44:21] like the the way you put that.
[1:44:24] One of the other things I wanted to
[1:44:26] discuss with you is it's in the chapter
[1:44:28] before. So it's all in this middle
[1:44:30] section about the architecture within
[1:44:32] but there's a a chapter on trauma you
[1:44:35] know which you call the past has never
[1:44:37] passed. And you write beautifully how
[1:44:41] you know loss of any sort uh is not just
[1:44:44] emotional it's an injury to the nervous
[1:44:47] system and and you have this
[1:44:49] >> heal framework right to help people
[1:44:53] you know think about the impact trauma
[1:44:54] has had and how they can move forward. H
[1:44:56] E A L heart, energy, autonomy and love,
[1:45:01] >> in the section on love,
[1:45:04] >> right? It it was it was really beautiful
[1:45:07] and and there was something you wrote
[1:45:08] which made me wonder if you're spiritual
[1:45:11] >> and I'm pretty sure I know now that
[1:45:13] through this conversation that you are.
[1:45:14] But
[1:45:15] >> in that section you wrote, "We can
[1:45:17] search far and wide for love, but it
[1:45:20] should be of great solace to know that
[1:45:22] there is a wellspring of love and peace
[1:45:25] inside us.
[1:45:27] Are you a spiritual person? [laughter]
[1:45:29] >> Uh, very much so. Um, I'm definitely a
[1:45:32] naturalist at heart. You know, I spend a
[1:45:33] lot of time outside. [laughter] Um, and
[1:45:36] and so I I feel like, you know, nature
[1:45:38] is God, you know, in in a sense, like,
[1:45:41] and so, yeah, I think I'm I'm very
[1:45:43] spiritual in that sense. Um, I I do go
[1:45:46] to church. Um uh so I I suppose I'm I'm
[1:45:51] definitely I have this firm belief that
[1:45:53] there's something much bigger than than
[1:45:55] us out there.
[1:45:56] >> Um and that brings me a lot of a lot of
[1:45:58] peace I think knowing that. Um but I
[1:46:01] think that that passage in particular um
[1:46:04] really
[1:46:06] meant
[1:46:08] a lot to me because it's taken me a
[1:46:10] lifetime to get there.
[1:46:12] >> Yeah. to really believe that like to
[1:46:14] write that and and believe that there's
[1:46:15] actually a wellspring of peace and love
[1:46:18] inside and you know just for I I guess
[1:46:22] your listeners like a really practical
[1:46:24] way that I that I have been I've been
[1:46:27] doing for a very long time that helped
[1:46:28] me cultivate this is um loving kindness
[1:46:31] meditation.
[1:46:32] >> Exactly where I was going to go next.
[1:46:33] >> I know it. It's like I could say, "Oh, I
[1:46:36] love myself." But I hated myself for so
[1:46:40] long
[1:46:42] despite every marker of success that
[1:46:45] someone could look from the outside.
[1:46:46] Like I loathe myself and like that, you
[1:46:51] know, and a lot of it was just like, you
[1:46:54] know, just [snorts]
[1:46:55] trying to figure out like who who
[1:46:57] actually am I in this in this world?
[1:46:58] like when I put aside my past and like
[1:47:02] and and figure out how to come to terms
[1:47:04] with that, like what am I actually left
[1:47:06] with, you know? And if I were to take
[1:47:07] away all of these like external markers
[1:47:10] of success, what am I left with? And and
[1:47:12] I I hated that person. I had to like
[1:47:16] build myself basically from the ground
[1:47:18] up in my mid20s. And and that has been a
[1:47:22] project ever since. And part of that
[1:47:24] journey has been figuring out, okay, how
[1:47:26] do I actually get to a place where I can
[1:47:28] look in the mirror and be
[1:47:30] >> just completely just content, you know,
[1:47:33] with the the person looking back at me.
[1:47:35] And it started with my values and really
[1:47:36] auditing that and like looking more
[1:47:38] >> honestly at my behaviors and seeing
[1:47:41] where there was alignment, where there
[1:47:42] wasn't. And and then, you know, one of
[1:47:44] the practices that the the psychiatrist
[1:47:47] I was working with, looking back, I'm
[1:47:48] like, gosh, you know, he was like, I
[1:47:50] need to write him a note. [laughter]
[1:47:52] um he really helped me um but uh he got
[1:47:56] me onto this loving kindness meditation
[1:47:58] and also known as as meta and and I
[1:48:01] think what I love about it is it starts
[1:48:03] internal you know it's like all right
[1:48:06] >> how do I what are the phrases that I can
[1:48:09] bring forth and meditate on that make me
[1:48:12] feel a sense of love toward myself and
[1:48:16] then you kind of move yourself outward
[1:48:18] you know where you kind of go to someone
[1:48:20] close to you and then someone neutral
[1:48:21] and then to the world and I think you
[1:48:23] know you said it this open heart right
[1:48:25] like how do we get to that open heart
[1:48:27] you have to love yourself first like
[1:48:29] there's no other path to having an open
[1:48:31] heart like you have to love yourself
[1:48:33] first
[1:48:34] >> and and I this es and flows sometimes I
[1:48:36] like myself more than other times right
[1:48:38] which I think is totally normal
[1:48:40] >> um but I think I think like if we were
[1:48:42] to like zoom all the way out that's the
[1:48:44] place to start you know and when you
[1:48:46] love yourself you honor your body you
[1:48:48] nourish your body you make better
[1:48:50] choices with the food you put in your
[1:48:52] you you attract people who are also
[1:48:55] loving and kind and yeah I just feel
[1:48:58] like it has that's the place to start
[1:49:00] you know
[1:49:00] >> is your behavior coming from love or
[1:49:02] fear right and uh it's really beautiful
[1:49:05] thank you so much
[1:49:06] >> for opening up and sharing
[1:49:09] >> I guess for someone non-spiritual who
[1:49:11] may not believe
[1:49:13] >> you know this idea that there is a
[1:49:15] wellspring of love inside us or that
[1:49:17] it's not their belief system
[1:49:19] [clears throat]
[1:49:19] >> well perhaps this is their belief system
[1:49:21] in, you know, the final section book
[1:49:23] where there's
[1:49:23] >> it's all about recovery.
[1:49:25] >> Yeah.
[1:49:25] >> And autonomic nervous system promoting
[1:49:27] recovery.
[1:49:28] >> Maybe there's 19 20 different
[1:49:30] techniques. 22
[1:49:31] >> 22. Okay. And you know, sauna, cold
[1:49:34] plunge, contrast therapy, breath work,
[1:49:36] nutrition, like it's all there with the
[1:49:39] data and practices around it, which is
[1:49:40] wonderful.
[1:49:41] >> And again, you make you don't have to do
[1:49:43] it all. It's like a bit of a pick and
[1:49:45] it's a menu.
[1:49:46] >> It's a menu.
[1:49:46] >> Pick pick some. But on on you know
[1:49:49] technique 18 which is loving kindness
[1:49:51] meditation.
[1:49:52] >> I can't believe that you have that
[1:49:53] earmarked and we just went there.
[1:49:56] >> Yeah it's um it's synchronicity. It's
[1:49:59] starting to happen now. Right.
[1:50:00] >> But you talk about loving kindness
[1:50:02] meditation. Right. You say that often
[1:50:04] begins with a quiet repetition of a
[1:50:06] simple heartfelt phrase. May I be safe.
[1:50:08] May I be healthy. May I live with ease.
[1:50:10] Right. And you you you do it with
[1:50:12] yourself then to people in your
[1:50:13] community. Then sometimes you can extend
[1:50:15] it to people you don't like or you've
[1:50:16] had an issue with it. But it's really
[1:50:18] powerful.
[1:50:19] >> It's so I can't even underscore how like
[1:50:21] >> it's it's wonderful. And then you you
[1:50:23] write this. Okay. This meditative focus
[1:50:27] we're talking about loving kindness
[1:50:28] meditation activates the parasympathetic
[1:50:32] nervous system, reduces stress
[1:50:35] reactivity
[1:50:36] and improves heart rate variability.
[1:50:39] Frederickson and colleagues found that
[1:50:41] regular loving kindness meditation
[1:50:43] practices increase the tone of the
[1:50:45] veagal nerve, the body's primary pathway
[1:50:48] for calm and social connection. And you
[1:50:50] you just keep going on. [laughter] The
[1:50:52] point being living with an open heart
[1:50:55] >> and
[1:50:57] loving yourself and others
[1:50:59] >> builds resilience.
[1:51:00] >> It's good for you.
[1:51:01] >> Yeah, it's good for you. It really
[1:51:02] [snorts] is. Yeah.
[1:51:03] >> You don't want to believe any spiritual
[1:51:05] self and that you think it's good for
[1:51:07] your health to be [laughter] that way.
[1:51:08] It is. Yeah. And you know I I know that
[1:51:11] there's also like for me just to to lean
[1:51:13] on the spiritual side is just I mean I'm
[1:51:15] a you know I'm a scientist too, you
[1:51:17] know. So I appreciate
[1:51:18] >> You can be both, can't you?
[1:51:19] >> I sure can. I am. Um and yeah, I mean I
[1:51:22] that's what I really tried to bring to
[1:51:24] this book is I wanted I wanted the
[1:51:26] evidence, right? Like I wanted, you
[1:51:27] know, if we're if I'm to outline 22
[1:51:30] behaviors that help improve autonomic
[1:51:32] nervous system resilience, well, there's
[1:51:34] going to be some evidence behind them,
[1:51:35] you know? I think people people want
[1:51:36] that, right? And and I think that just
[1:51:38] protects me too from you know um as a as
[1:51:40] a scientist I guess. But but I I think
[1:51:43] too like just having knowing that this
[1:51:45] stuff actually works.
[1:51:46] >> Yeah.
[1:51:46] >> You know like it it makes you a better
[1:51:48] person
[1:51:49] >> but it also um you know if you are if
[1:51:53] you want to tap into that spiritual side
[1:51:55] I think it really does it does that too
[1:51:57] you know.
[1:51:58] >> Yeah. [sighs]
[1:51:59] >> Well Kristen we could we could talk for
[1:52:00] hours. I mean, we've [laughter] got so
[1:52:02] many um topics and and sort of
[1:52:06] >> so many shared interests.
[1:52:08] >> Uh I I really appreciate how much you've
[1:52:10] opened up today. Um
[1:52:12] >> I really love the the varied nature of
[1:52:15] the book, right? I think if people are
[1:52:17] expecting it just to be
[1:52:19] >> Kristen Holmes, performance scientist at
[1:52:21] Whoop,
[1:52:22] >> there's that and there's a whole other
[1:52:24] side as well, which I think is is really
[1:52:26] beautiful to see
[1:52:27] >> uh in a book. So, thank you for writing
[1:52:29] it. It's out now. Of course. The book is
[1:52:31] called Aligned, the datadriven guide to
[1:52:34] performance, recovery, and human
[1:52:35] potential. Who doesn't want better
[1:52:38] performance, recovery, and and to
[1:52:39] fulfill our potential? So, I think it's
[1:52:41] a book for everyone.
[1:52:42] >> To finish off this conversation,
[1:52:47] >> for someone who has been listening,
[1:52:49] Kristen, and
[1:52:51] does feel stuck
[1:52:53] >> and perhaps there were elements of your
[1:52:55] personal story that they resonated with.
[1:53:00] but they're like, "Yeah, I I know
[1:53:01] Kristen's done it. I can see that she's
[1:53:04] done the work. She's moved through it,
[1:53:05] but I feel lost.
[1:53:08] >> I don't know where to start."
[1:53:10] What would you say to them?
[1:53:13] >> I think having someone neutral to talk
[1:53:15] to um was a a big unlock for me
[1:53:20] cuz I I didn't really know what to do. I
[1:53:24] I was the same like I could hear all
[1:53:25] these things you know but I think
[1:53:27] talking to a professional um who can
[1:53:32] hear about the issues that you
[1:53:34] personally are facing
[1:53:37] understands your constraints
[1:53:40] can give you a place to start you know
[1:53:42] and and maybe it's just I mean for me it
[1:53:45] was just journaling like that's where I
[1:53:47] started he's like I I did it as a child
[1:53:50] I I write I've always he's like what do
[1:53:53] you like to do I'm like, "Well, I love
[1:53:54] to write." He's like, "Let's start
[1:53:56] journaling."
[1:53:57] >> And I just and he gave me some prompts.
[1:53:59] I started journaling and I my life
[1:54:02] started making sense,
[1:54:04] you know, and and and I would come to
[1:54:06] the sessions and I and I'd have some
[1:54:09] revelations and we'd talk through it and
[1:54:12] we were just able to build from there.
[1:54:13] So, everyone's starting point is going
[1:54:15] to be a little bit different, but I
[1:54:17] think if someone feels really stuck in
[1:54:20] their healing journey, feels really
[1:54:22] stuck in um a a trauma or certainly is
[1:54:26] maybe trauma isn't necess is does trauma
[1:54:29] can be a precursor kind of kindling for
[1:54:31] depression and anxiety and um so, you
[1:54:34] know, obviously I don't know where, you
[1:54:36] know, wherever you are on that spectrum.
[1:54:37] I think getting help and support from a
[1:54:40] professional is a great place to start.
[1:54:43] >> Yeah. Um, and I and I know not everyone
[1:54:44] has some has the resources, but um, but
[1:54:47] I I think mental health support is more
[1:54:50] ubiquitous now. Um, so I to me I think
[1:54:54] that that's a great place to start on
[1:54:56] your journey.
[1:54:57] >> Yeah, love it. Well, Kristen, thank you
[1:54:58] for everything you do and you continue
[1:55:00] to do. Thank you for the beautiful
[1:55:01] energy
[1:55:02] >> and thank you so much for coming on the
[1:55:04] show.
[1:55:04] >> Thank you for having me. It's been just
[1:55:06] an absolute honor.
[1:55:07] >> If you enjoyed this video, do stick
[1:55:09] around. I picked out this one which I
[1:55:11] think you're really going to enjoy as
[1:55:13] well.