Transcript
[0:09] to say that i decided to leave
[0:11] university it was more like i was so
[0:16] just so severely disillusioned
[0:20] that i i just couldn't do it anymore
[0:24] you know it's it's not as though i could
[0:26] have decided well i'm going to go ahead
[0:27] and continue
[0:28] anyway i just i totally needed to back
[0:30] away
[0:31] uh you know
[0:35] try to understand find a new direction
[0:38] you know
[0:38] [Music]
[0:40] it's a disillusionment is the right term
[0:42] it was
[0:43] it made me question everything
[0:47] um
[0:50] basically threw me back to a state that
[0:52] was in many ways reminiscent of
[0:55] uh what precipitated my leading home
[0:58] when i was 15.
[1:00] so i probably could no more have
[1:02] continued with
[1:04] you know even if i'd withdrawn from just
[1:07] from seminary i couldn't
[1:08] couldn't have successfully completed my
[1:10] courses
[1:12] so yeah so what happened
[1:19] a new vista opened up for me
[1:22] um in terms of
[1:26] psychoactive drugs
[1:29] this was 1960
[1:35] 1967 predominantly
[1:39] um i i don't know how familiar people
[1:44] are now
[1:44] with what happened in the 60s but well
[1:47] just before the summer of love
[1:49] isn't it it was it was just before the
[1:51] summer of love
[1:53] as a matter of fact uh that was i was
[1:55] all
[1:56] i was a part of all of that before the
[1:59] end of the second semester i actually
[2:03] packed up
[2:03] and drove to california and
[2:08] went to los angeles well you know taking
[2:11] the interstate
[2:12] you end up in los angeles first and then
[2:14] head north to san francisco
[2:16] eight ashbury uh
[2:19] countless lsd trips along the way
[2:24] even before i left on this odyssey i'd
[2:27] been introduced to
[2:29] a variety of psychedelics
[2:34] i'd gone gathering peyote mushrooms in
[2:37] west texas and began to
[2:39] you know with with other people of
[2:41] similar interests
[2:42] experimenting with that psilocybin
[2:45] muscle uh
[2:46] mushrooms uh well purified
[2:49] mescaline in addition to
[2:52] to the peyote cactus
[2:55] which just as an aside is
[2:58] different even though mescaline is a
[3:02] primary active ingredient
[3:03] in peyote is a mixture of alkaloids it
[3:07] produces a significantly
[3:09] different overall effect in peyote than
[3:12] with just
[3:12] purified muscling i was just
[3:16] i was exploring all these things and i
[3:18] felt like
[3:19] through these psychedelic or
[3:22] psychoactive or antiogenic
[3:24] i mean my favorite term was anthogenic
[3:29] because that was how i experienced these
[3:33] the the effects of these as they were
[3:36] opening
[3:37] the doors of perception to exactly the
[3:40] kind of
[3:42] visitors that i could relate to as
[3:47] having something to do with the mystical
[3:49] pursuits that i had been
[3:52] engaged in
[3:56] and seemed to show some promise
[4:00] of understanding remember at this time
[4:04] um timothy leary
[4:10] richard alpert who became romdos
[4:13] these were uh
[4:16] these people were highly respected
[4:20] and saying incredible things about the
[4:22] potential of this
[4:23] uh we as young people went out and tried
[4:26] these things and we discovered that
[4:28] gee this you know this really does seem
[4:30] to be
[4:31] this wonderful way into
[4:35] a whole new universe of understanding
[4:38] uh in my experience psychedelics did uh
[4:43] just it just illustrated so completely
[4:46] in a profound experiential way what i
[4:49] had
[4:49] already discovered is the the
[4:52] illusoriness
[4:53] of the world we lived in and the
[4:56] perceptions that we had
[4:58] so yeah
[5:02] so i i i this
[5:05] was i was ready
[5:08] for something new i was desperate
[5:11] everywhere i had looked
[5:13] i'd come up dry and now here was
[5:17] something
[5:18] that offered something immediately
[5:21] tangibly promising of the direction that
[5:25] i wanted to go
[5:27] and so yeah i immersed myself completely
[5:30] in it
[5:32] i did go to san francisco i you know i
[5:34] participated in the whole thing
[5:37] uh lovins in the park even when i went
[5:40] back to
[5:41] houston large numbers of people would
[5:43] spontaneously gather
[5:45] and and half of them would be tripping
[5:48] on something or other
[5:49] and in those environments i came to be a
[5:52] trip doctor
[5:55] i don't know if you're familiar with
[5:56] that term i i think that you better
[5:58] explain that for the benefit i i'm
[6:00] sort of familiar but i think it'd be
[6:02] good to talk a little bit about that
[6:04] people had ingested psychoactive
[6:06] substances would
[6:08] not infrequently uh have experiences
[6:12] that
[6:13] that were so shocking to them that uh
[6:16] they would be they would have a bad trip
[6:20] and it was sort of this kind of uh
[6:23] spontaneously self-reinforcing thing
[6:25] sort of like
[6:27] somebody who's had panic attacks if they
[6:29] believe they might be having a panic
[6:31] attack it'll trigger one
[6:32] right if somebody believes they're
[6:34] having a bad trip it'll trigger a bad
[6:36] trip
[6:38] and i was especially good at
[6:41] just talking people into hey you know
[6:44] don't fight it
[6:45] just accept it everything's going to be
[6:47] all right
[6:49] so you sort of had a natural way with
[6:51] helping people
[6:53] uh through these really difficult
[6:55] experiences which can seem sort of quite
[6:58] spiritually threatening right as i
[7:00] understand it well my
[7:02] my i had to add some real-life
[7:05] counterparts
[7:06] to bad trips so
[7:10] and i i was sort of already
[7:14] prepared in advance to deal with the
[7:17] tricks
[7:18] mine can play interesting
[7:21] and um so this this seemed
[7:24] to offer you a lot um however
[7:27] and i'm going to be a little bit
[7:30] challenging here
[7:32] and that is to say to you um
[7:35] but if i were next to you back in 1968
[7:38] or
[7:38] 69 i'd be saying to you okay this is all
[7:41] good and
[7:41] you're having all these experiences but
[7:44] i don't
[7:45] you know know of any examples
[7:48] such as teresa of avila or john of the
[7:50] cross or any of these people that were
[7:52] doing this by
[7:53] taking mushrooms so uh had you at that
[7:57] point
[7:58] just given up on the idea that that were
[8:01] those now fairy tales to you and this
[8:03] was the only
[8:04] way uh you felt that science had the
[8:07] only answer here
[8:08] science and chemicals no no
[8:11] no no not no
[8:15] quite the opposite
[8:19] now to put this in a proper context at
[8:22] this point i knew
[8:23] absolutely nothing about eastern
[8:26] philosophies
[8:27] religions mystical practices anything
[8:29] else
[8:31] meditation that's something that came
[8:33] evolved naturally as a next step from
[8:35] this
[8:39] to me to all of us this was some
[8:42] wonderful new
[8:43] discovery and then what was also coming
[8:47] to light at the same time
[8:49] i i you know from
[8:52] today's perspective it might be
[8:55] challenging to put oneself
[8:57] in the mind frame of 1960s
[9:02] most of us only learned as a part of
[9:05] that experience
[9:06] that the use of psychoactive substance
[9:09] is is something
[9:10] that had a tremendous history going back
[9:13] a very long ways
[9:15] um when i was using peyote it was sort
[9:18] of like
[9:19] wow here's something that is similar in
[9:22] many ways to
[9:23] uh lsd and it can produce
[9:26] similar things but here it's not made in
[9:29] a laboratory it's not something that was
[9:30] discovered by accident a decade or so
[9:33] ago
[9:35] in a laboratory this is something that's
[9:37] in a plant and all you have to do is
[9:38] go and find a plant and prepare it
[9:40] appropriately
[9:42] uh it it came later the recognition
[9:46] well what we discovered is we were
[9:47] encroaching on native american
[9:49] church territories and basically
[9:52] stealing
[9:52] everything um
[9:57] anyway that's i don't want to get off
[9:59] topic there
[10:01] but no this look
[10:05] this appeared to be a novel way of
[10:10] reaching the kinds of things that john
[10:14] of the cross and
[10:15] avila and the unknown author of the
[10:17] cloud of unknowing and people like that
[10:18] were talking about
[10:20] and none of us really had the larger
[10:23] frame of reference to know
[10:24] that all these things similar things
[10:26] that have been explored
[10:28] in other cultures in other parts of the
[10:30] world for a long time
[10:32] like i say that grew out of this from
[10:34] our fascination with
[10:36] psychoactive substances per se and the
[10:39] experiences that they gave rise to
[10:41] now whereas many of the people i was
[10:43] with it was just oh wow this is
[10:45] this is news great makes me feel good i
[10:48] feel like i understand myself and things
[10:50] so much better
[10:52] but you were still had a purpose here
[10:54] you were still looking for
[10:55] for this this was not just about having
[10:57] a good time and
[10:59] you know having orgies in the park
[11:03] exactly it's like yeah this is what was
[11:06] the predominant thing
[11:07] but not entirely there are a lot of
[11:08] people like myself too
[11:10] actually my first encounter with
[11:13] psychedelics
[11:14] was it was when i was
[11:17] working at university of texas medical
[11:20] branch before i got into university
[11:23] and somehow or another i came in contact
[11:26] there was uh somebody professor from uh
[11:29] university of tennessee uh
[11:32] and he had been very
[11:36] he had been following very closely uh
[11:39] the work of of tim leary and
[11:42] other people at harvard
[11:45] he was a professor of psychology
[11:48] which is why he was aware of all that
[11:51] and volume
[11:52] and one of the things that he was he
[11:54] told us about this
[11:57] and he proposed that we go and we
[12:00] scour all of the local stores
[12:03] for sun for morning glory seeds heavenly
[12:06] blue
[12:07] and pearly gates now these have an
[12:10] analog
[12:10] of lsd and a relatively high
[12:12] concentration in these seeds
[12:14] and so we bought as much of these seeds
[12:17] as we could
[12:19] uh ground them up in a coffee grinder
[12:22] prepared them
[12:22] in ways and we did a couple of
[12:26] uh trips
[12:29] so to speak using the morning glory
[12:32] seeds and that
[12:33] so this would have been several years
[12:35] earlier but i did have this previous
[12:38] experience
[12:39] and it had touched something in me but
[12:45] ingesting ground morning glory seeds is
[12:48] an ordeal in itself
[12:51] a reaction to it is severe
[12:54] gastrointestinal reaction it's
[12:57] painful cramps involving vomiting
[13:01] and it's only after you've gone through
[13:02] that part of the ordeal
[13:04] that you begin to have the experience of
[13:07] the psychoactive substance
[13:11] and for whatever reason i didn't
[13:15] do further research on morning glory
[13:17] seeds ever
[13:19] but the experiences that i had touched
[13:22] on something but were nothing nearly as
[13:24] powerful as what i later experienced
[13:26] with lsd and things like that
[13:28] so i did have some previous experience
[13:31] with that previous acquaintance which
[13:33] had kind of been stored away in the back
[13:35] of my mind that came to the surface when
[13:37] i
[13:38] when i when this whole new
[13:39] counterculture of
[13:41] psycho psychedelic drugs and the whole
[13:43] psychedelic revolution
[13:45] took place so
[13:49] this fit in in a way that i'd
[13:52] already touched upon so it was uh you
[13:55] know i
[13:56] had a previous inkling and now all of a
[13:57] sudden this seemed like it might be the
[14:00] answer
[14:01] that i wasn't finding in my previous
[14:04] pursuits
[14:09] well the outcome of this you know i had
[14:12] i remember i started out counting
[14:16] my lsd experiences and
[14:21] somewhere somewhere in california on the
[14:24] beach
[14:25] i hit 33 and then i
[14:29] for one reason another i never knew
[14:32] how many times altogether in that period
[14:36] uh but i never bothered to count the
[14:39] the times i'd use other things the only
[14:42] reason i mentioned
[14:43] that i actually counted 33 lsd trips is
[14:46] when i say i got into this in a big way
[14:48] i got into this in a big way
[14:50] right including discovering things like
[14:54] you couldn't use it to you couldn't use
[14:57] it twice too close
[14:59] temporal proximity or uh you know
[15:02] it wasn't going to work as well and uh
[15:05] sometimes the consequences could be
[15:08] very problematic
[15:13] what i learned from this it's a deep
[15:16] exploration
[15:17] i went as seriously i wasn't dabbling i
[15:19] wanted to plumb the depths
[15:21] and the conclusion i came to was one
[15:24] that
[15:25] quite a few of us in those days came to
[15:27] those of us who saw this as part of a
[15:29] spiritual journey
[15:31] was to realize its limitations it was
[15:34] unpredictable there was no framework to
[15:37] interpret
[15:38] these experiences um
[15:41] it's like you're just grasping at things
[15:43] that were
[15:44] just beyond the limits of the ability to
[15:47] make sense of
[15:50] it was like it's opening doorways to
[15:52] mysteries
[15:53] but with no way to step across the
[15:56] threshold
[15:57] and truly enter into the other side
[16:02] well other than very temporarily and
[16:05] then it was gone
[16:07] and actually that made a really strong
[16:09] that that one lesson
[16:11] is something that's carried over
[16:13] throughout all my meditation practices
[16:15] spiritual practices in general
[16:17] is experiences that come and go that's
[16:20] right
[16:20] frankly i say experience doesn't mean
[16:23] it's whether or not those
[16:26] experiences produce
[16:28] a real permanent transformation that's
[16:30] the only thing that counts
[16:32] and that was the problem with
[16:34] psychedelics
[16:36] they didn't provide a clear path to
[16:39] complete lasting transformation
[16:42] merely glimpses isolated experiences
[16:46] it's true you could use something like
[16:49] this particularly the plant medicines
[16:51] and go on an extended journey of several
[16:54] days
[16:54] but still whether it was six hours or
[16:57] whether it was four days
[16:59] it was just it was just a slight
[17:03] excursion right
[17:04] and and you're left with no permanent
[17:07] knowledge and
[17:08] and transformation um well
[17:11] some bits and pieces of permanent
[17:13] knowledge but no framework
[17:14] but it almost sounds like you're
[17:16] describing a dream that you wake up
[17:18] from and then you cut you struggle you
[17:20] remember little bits of it here and
[17:21] there but you can't
[17:22] remember the whole experience and it
[17:26] and it's touched you but in a way that
[17:28] you can't you you can't really
[17:30] quantify or capture again well the main
[17:32] thing is
[17:33] it's in a way that you can build on you
[17:36] don't have a way to go forward with it
[17:39] just like you'll have another dream some
[17:41] of the night
[17:42] you might take a psychoactive substance
[17:45] on another occasion
[17:46] but that dream on another night and that
[17:50] experience on another occasion
[17:53] it's its own thing it's not there's no
[17:55] continuity between
[17:56] it and what's gone before well that's
[17:59] probably not true but there's no
[18:01] easily discernible continuity that you
[18:03] can build on
[18:06] so um i do want to
[18:09] uh you know for the benefit this is
[18:10] going to be on youtube and
[18:13] i i think it's important to give a
[18:15] disclaimer here we are not suggesting
[18:17] that people
[18:18] um go out and use illicit substances
[18:22] or that this is a is a i mean i think
[18:25] you're already saying it but this is not
[18:26] neces this is not um
[18:28] in the context of what you're describing
[18:30] we're not talking about in
[18:32] native american traditions or whatever
[18:34] but this is not
[18:35] a uh a path that you
[18:39] think actually leads anywhere as far as
[18:43] true spiritual growth and awakening
[18:47] in the long term yes i tried it
[18:51] i tried it as thoroughly as i think
[18:54] anybody ever has and
[18:56] and after i satisfied myself that it was
[19:00] not the answer
[19:02] and that's the important thing to get
[19:03] across i learned from it
[19:06] but one of the most important things i
[19:08] learned well two things
[19:10] one is that somehow there is a way
[19:13] this was this was you know
[19:16] it's real it's it's touching something
[19:18] real
[19:20] but uh that's all it was is a glimpse is
[19:24] it
[19:24] that's all i could ever provide uh i
[19:27] mean you could learn and grow to a
[19:29] certain degree but
[19:30] you know a lifetime of playing with
[19:32] psychedelics
[19:33] later i saw what it did to timothy leary
[19:35] i saw what it did
[19:36] terence mckenna saw what it did to these
[19:39] other people who
[19:40] continued on with it yeah you know i
[19:43] chose not to
[19:44] yeah i realized the limitations of it
[19:47] and is am i right in thinking that what
[19:50] you're saying is i tried
[19:52] you know i i went all the way so that
[19:54] you don't have to
[19:56] um you know there are more fruitful ways
[19:58] for you to explore
[20:00] that's right let me just add something
[20:03] to this i'll jump ahead
[20:05] several decades where i went back to
[20:08] this
[20:09] but i went back to in the in the
[20:12] context of shamanism which i also
[20:15] trained in
[20:16] and with the traditional uses of these
[20:19] plant medicines
[20:20] in context peyote
[20:23] and the uh the
[20:27] mushroom viladas and
[20:30] the san pedro mesa ceremonies
[20:34] and all of these sorts of things
[20:37] ayahuasca ceremonies were trained iowa
[20:40] scheroz
[20:42] all these things are enormously powerful
[20:47] those many years later i discovered how
[20:50] over hundreds and thousands of years
[20:53] people had learned
[20:54] to use these psychoactive substances
[20:58] in a way that truly was a path of
[21:02] spiritual development
[21:04] so i went back and re-explored that
[21:06] years later
[21:07] in that context but at that time
[21:12] in the naive use that we had at that
[21:15] time and knowledge
[21:17] i what i recognized most clearly was
[21:20] what it pointed towards and the fact
[21:23] that it couldn't deliver it
[21:25] in itself right so
[21:28] i was not the only one there were quite
[21:30] a few of us
[21:32] yeah and most of us were pretty much
[21:35] ignorant of anything eastern other than
[21:38] chop suey
[21:40] which actually is not even chinese
[21:47] so i mean i know this is a slightly
[21:50] delicate question but i think it bears
[21:51] asking
[21:52] um because meditation is such a such a
[21:56] long uh you know if you're following uh
[21:59] summit uh and that sort of it's a long
[22:03] training that requires a lot of
[22:04] dedication and
[22:06] um uh resolve
[22:10] let's say uh usually for most people
[22:13] to to bear fruit
[22:15] [Music]
[22:17] so for a lot of people especially us
[22:19] westerners we're often looking for
[22:21] the easy way the quick way and the
[22:24] simple way particularly to something as
[22:26] alluring as enlightenment
[22:28] um so from from your perspective um
[22:32] would you say that these other
[22:33] traditions the ayahuasca
[22:36] all this sort of thing the native
[22:38] american
[22:39] traditions all of that do they lead to
[22:42] the same
[22:43] kind of of depth of spiritual
[22:45] realization
[22:46] that that you've
[22:49] you say you've experienced with
[22:52] practicing the buddhist path
[22:55] well i believe
[22:58] they do but not very often
[23:01] they take a long long time and they have
[23:03] the potential to
[23:04] reach the same places but it's not a
[23:07] fast and efficient
[23:09] right okay it's less
[23:12] efficient and less rapid
[23:16] i'm speaking now from the perspective
[23:20] uh 50 years later yeah
[23:24] i that uh
[23:28] what i've discovered is that these
[23:30] eastern paths are very rapid and they're
[23:32] very effective
[23:33] it's the form that they've come to us in
[23:38] and i can say the same thing about
[23:40] ayahuasca ceremonies that
[23:42] are being conducted all over the united
[23:45] states now
[23:46] and the native american church is really
[23:50] you know they really clamp down on
[23:52] people
[23:54] you know wanting to get involved and
[23:56] experiment and things like that
[23:59] but for a while there are a lot of
[24:00] people what the effect was
[24:03] is that it's diluted the power of those
[24:06] things
[24:08] same thing is true of all of these
[24:11] eastern mystical traditions they had
[24:14] already
[24:15] lost a lot of their vital essence over
[24:18] centuries and when they were imported
[24:21] into the us
[24:22] they were basically drained of their
[24:24] lice juice and became these very narrow
[24:26] shallow things that yes would seem like
[24:29] they would take an eternity
[24:30] if ever you know 10 000 lifetimes or
[24:33] something a practice to achieve anything
[24:36] this was the wonderful thing about the
[24:39] 1960s and western ignorance
[24:42] because when we discovered these eastern
[24:45] disciplines
[24:46] and their fruits we discovered by virtue
[24:49] of the people
[24:50] that had realized these things
[24:54] we didn't know about the centuries of
[24:58] lay practitioners who superficial
[25:01] practice
[25:03] which all it ever gave them was a hope
[25:06] that they would be reincarnated as a
[25:08] monk
[25:09] we didn't really know of all of the
[25:13] generations and generations of monks and
[25:15] monasteries who had never achieved these
[25:17] glorious fruits that the practice
[25:19] promised
[25:21] we just knew about the ones that had
[25:23] written about it
[25:25] in in my case this was all brand new
[25:28] uh other people of my generation were in
[25:32] a position to be able to
[25:34] go to the east go to thailand burma sri
[25:37] lanka
[25:38] wherever and sample these things up
[25:41] close and
[25:42] they're the ones that imported a lot of
[25:44] this back into the states
[25:49] and then of course after the chinese
[25:51] invasion of tibet
[25:53] and the tibetan diaspora a lot of this
[25:55] uh
[25:56] stuff also began to come into the west
[25:58] but this that was that happened a lot
[26:00] later than that
[26:01] so we didn't know
[26:04] perhaps it might have been daunting more
[26:07] daunting
[26:08] to some of
[26:11] us explore explorers not myself because
[26:14] i've already been on this journey for
[26:17] for quite a few years and you know
[26:20] been up some blind alleys and things
[26:22] like that
[26:25] so i didn't expect anything to happen
[26:27] magically overnight
[26:29] yeah yeah but i didn't have
[26:32] access to i mean it just wasn't the
[26:35] availability like right now there's so
[26:37] much information available
[26:39] not just on the internet but even before
[26:41] the internet so much became available in
[26:43] print
[26:44] the only sources that i could locate
[26:47] were uh the viva command of identicide
[26:50] society in chicago and i purchased
[26:55] just about everything that they had
[26:56] available to read about this
[26:59] now in in regard to these being
[27:03] disciplines that take so very very long
[27:05] to master
[27:07] when viva commander went to the
[27:10] that great spiritual religious fair in
[27:13] chicago in the
[27:14] 1890s he was only 30 years old he was
[27:17] only a few years older than i was
[27:20] and he had realized the fruits and for
[27:22] me that time frame
[27:23] hey that is no problem that's no problem
[27:26] right
[27:27] so just just before we leave
[27:30] the topic of of psychedelics because i
[27:33] mean there has been an enormous
[27:35] uh i i'm not sure it ever really went
[27:37] away but there's
[27:38] much more of a resurgence of interest in
[27:41] western people on on trying to
[27:45] achieve awakening and or you know grand
[27:48] spiritual
[27:48] paths uh with uh psychedelics
[27:52] could you perhaps just take us through
[27:55] and then we'll get back to
[27:56] you know jump back into your life um
[28:00] take us through uh would describe to us
[28:04] you know some of the risks
[28:05] involved and and uh you know what it
[28:08] what it can offer and what it can't i
[28:10] think you've covered that to some degree
[28:12] already
[28:12] um but just you know as someone who's in
[28:15] psychology i do see people
[28:17] experiment with the stuff and and
[28:20] sometimes it does not turn out well
[28:22] um so i think it's worth worthwhile to
[28:24] to tell people
[28:26] you know here be dragons uh proceed with
[28:29] caution
[28:31] well casual experimenters
[28:36] are going to be no better off today than
[28:38] they were in the 60s
[28:40] but what is happening today that that
[28:43] inspires me is that there are serious
[28:46] people
[28:47] researching the potential of using these
[28:50] things
[28:51] and they have rediscovered what larry
[28:54] referred to
[28:55] as set and setting which is really the
[28:57] whole
[28:58] dynamic that is at least as important as
[29:01] a psychoactive substance itself
[29:04] in these various traditional ceremonies
[29:07] using right where you're actually being
[29:10] guided by somebody that's done this
[29:12] a thousand times before and guided
[29:16] a thousand other people through this
[29:18] experience before
[29:20] they have a vast accumulation of
[29:22] personal experience
[29:23] and that is built on top of everything
[29:26] that has been passed along to them by
[29:28] the people that trained them
[29:31] so now we have modern researchers with a
[29:33] different foundation
[29:34] we have we have whole new degrees of
[29:38] understanding whole new disciplines
[29:40] cognitive psychology as such did not
[29:43] exist
[29:44] a few decades ago our understanding of
[29:47] the brain and the nervous system
[29:49] has undergone an explosive growth and
[29:53] exponential growth
[29:55] many different branches of psychology
[29:58] and philosophy for that matter
[30:00] exploring the nature of consciousness
[30:02] how
[30:03] how the mind processes information what
[30:05] the mind is
[30:07] you know there are people bringing that
[30:10] kind of knowledge and understanding
[30:12] to psychedelic substances as something
[30:15] which is going to alter
[30:17] mental processes and what can we learn
[30:19] from this and is there a
[30:21] practical utility in this now this is
[30:24] where these traditional
[30:25] ceremonies have so much to offer these
[30:28] ceremonies always serve the purpose of
[30:31] healing
[30:32] healing so many things physical diseases
[30:35] addictions um just
[30:39] depression psychological disorders of
[30:43] all kinds
[30:44] even what we things we would find
[30:47] defined in dsm you know
[30:52] and so yes let's discover the potential
[30:55] of these as tools
[30:57] and let's add them to to much larger
[31:00] collection of tools
[31:01] that includes things like meditation it
[31:03] includes things like all these modern
[31:05] uh approaches to philosophy
[31:08] and you know
[31:12] therapy and that's why yeah
[31:15] philosophy psychology the
[31:18] mind-body dynamic all the explorations
[31:21] of what it means to be an
[31:22] embodied mind
[31:25] these are valuable tools uh and and not
[31:28] only that they're
[31:29] they're tools that in combination with
[31:31] psychoactive substances
[31:33] you know have a powerfully synergistic
[31:35] effect
[31:38] so i welcome this now
[31:42] we were on that same path in the 60s
[31:44] without sufficient background in
[31:46] preparation
[31:48] and what happened is we had this you
[31:50] know we ended up having
[31:51] on almost every weekend there would be
[31:54] some kind of gathering in parks all over
[31:56] the country
[31:57] hundreds of people taking large doses of
[32:00] psychoactive substances
[32:02] emergency rooms being flooded by you
[32:05] know tens or dozens of people
[32:07] that were having
[32:10] what was understood at the time to be a
[32:12] psychotic break which wasn't really it
[32:14] was just a bad trip
[32:17] that's another thing that happens too by
[32:19] the way in meditation
[32:20] is somebody can have the equivalent of a
[32:23] bad trip and meditation
[32:26] it can be treated as though it's
[32:27] something more than it is
[32:29] which will actually turn it into
[32:30] something more than it is and that's
[32:32] back to the toxic name of the dark
[32:34] knight
[32:35] right and that's as you said earlier
[32:37] sort of if you think you're going to
[32:38] have a bad triple if you interpret
[32:40] something as being a
[32:41] psychotic break you you may become a
[32:44] self-fulfilling prophecy
[32:45] right but but to be to be fair some
[32:48] people do run into some serious
[32:50] trouble with with some of these uh
[32:53] substances
[32:54] taken in the wrong way in the wrong
[32:56] settings and all that sort of thing
[33:00] yes there's not that many people who
[33:01] don't have some serious
[33:03] uh psychological psycho-emotional
[33:06] problems of one sort or another
[33:08] and they can live their whole life and
[33:10] not even realize that
[33:12] but when something comes along that acts
[33:14] as a powerful trigger
[33:15] they can you know the needle can swing
[33:18] all the way to the other side
[33:20] how how likely is it that um
[33:23] someone because it is sort of the vogue
[33:26] now
[33:26] to jump on a plane and go to south
[33:29] america
[33:30] well as you say it's now even being done
[33:32] in
[33:33] in the states but let's talk about
[33:35] proper like
[33:37] and people like that you jump on a plane
[33:40] you go down there you get a legitimate
[33:42] you go through a legitimate ceremony
[33:43] with someone who's highly trained highly
[33:45] experienced
[33:47] how likely is it that someone is going
[33:49] to come back from that
[33:50] and be awakened and what we're talking
[33:53] about in
[33:54] the buddhist sense of of the word you
[33:56] know very highly spiritually realized
[33:58] individual how likely do you think that
[34:00] prospect is
[34:01] uh minimal
[34:05] minuscule but but there are a lot of
[34:07] people that go and do that and they come
[34:09] back
[34:10] and they really uh they don't come back
[34:13] thinking that they haven't they come
[34:14] back thinking that that actually has
[34:16] happened to them
[34:17] and the rest of their lives then is
[34:20] based on that
[34:21] uh belief that they cannot be
[34:24] unconvinced of
[34:27] yeah yeah and then they spend their
[34:28] whole life rationalizing while they're
[34:30] still just
[34:31] why they're still just as troubled and
[34:33] miserable as they were before
[34:34] now that they're they've had these
[34:36] wonderful ios carol
[34:38] experiences and they're supposedly
[34:40] awakened enlightened
[34:42] they've conflated uh a healing process
[34:45] in south america with a
[34:47] spiritual development process from other
[34:50] parts of the cultures in the world
[34:53] and now they're trying to make it come
[34:54] true we'll just well how is that
[34:56] different than people who
[34:58] meditate in such a way and follow such
[35:01] practices that are going to produce
[35:03] oh well experiences and then on the
[35:06] basis of those oh wow experiences
[35:08] they're told that well you're now you
[35:10] know you're now a stream mentor
[35:12] you're now in our hut and they're no
[35:14] more a stream rancher in our hot than
[35:16] anybody else they just had some powerful
[35:19] experiences and the ideas been planted
[35:21] in their mind
[35:22] then they try to live it as a reality
[35:24] and
[35:25] i watch these people and it becomes more
[35:28] and more
[35:29] a tangled process of trying to bend
[35:32] something into being something it's not
[35:35] right
[35:35] i appreciate you speaking about about
[35:37] this but the one thing that i did also
[35:40] take away from
[35:40] from what you've said here is that there
[35:43] is
[35:45] there are states and there are traits as
[35:47] as you've talked about before
[35:48] right so there are amazing states that
[35:51] one can have with
[35:52] whether it's taking psychoactive
[35:54] substances or whether it's with
[35:55] meditation or other spiritual practices
[35:58] but what one is looking for is
[36:00] ultimately
[36:02] a permanent transformation a permanent
[36:04] growth
[36:05] right okay
[36:08] fantastic so after trip number 33 of lsd
[36:12] unless there was something else that you
[36:14] wanted to add about
[36:15] about do you think feel we've covered it
[36:17] or was there something else you wanted
[36:18] to add on the subject
[36:20] well really the main thing is that
[36:26] i i've recovered my
[36:32] hope the validity of my my
[36:35] my aspiration was made valid once again
[36:38] uh but i realized that and i'll always
[36:42] be thankful for that experience for
[36:43] providing
[36:44] that uh and for the fact that
[36:47] i was not in this alone and there are
[36:49] other people and it opened up this whole
[36:51] you know whole new world there are all
[36:53] kinds of eastern mystical traditions
[36:55] where
[36:56] the kind of thing that i didn't know
[36:58] existed had been around for thousands of
[37:00] years
[37:01] and had many different forms and
[37:03] variations available to it
[37:06] and so that was the next direction
[37:09] that my personal spiritual quest
[37:12] took was now to look at those those
[37:15] eastern
[37:16] philosophies and those eastern practices
[37:20] and in the very first baby steps in that
[37:24] direction it was like i say it was hard
[37:25] to find anything
[37:27] so i started out trying to teach myself
[37:30] uh using uh the writings of viva cananda
[37:34] i just asked how did you become aware of
[37:37] of the fact
[37:37] that that they were you know because up
[37:40] until this stage it sounds like you were
[37:42] only really aware of first of all that
[37:45] the the
[37:45] christian spiritual mystics and then
[37:48] perhaps the
[37:49] native american uh the medicine based
[37:53] mysticism and how did you then
[37:55] transition from that
[37:57] into finding viva cananda and and those
[38:00] sorts of things
[38:01] well like i say it was being part of the
[38:03] community
[38:04] and that community included you know not
[38:07] just people that were
[38:09] playing around with something exciting
[38:11] and different
[38:12] but people who were intelligent and much
[38:15] more
[38:17] thoughtful and serious about this uh who
[38:20] recognized the same potential that i did
[38:22] maybe coming from different backgrounds
[38:24] for different reasons in a different way
[38:26] but i had a commonality with them and of
[38:28] course these are the people that i talk
[38:29] to
[38:30] you know i meet somebody that had been
[38:33] doing this um doing these different
[38:35] substances and
[38:37] we'd compare notes have you tried this
[38:38] have you tried that how did you find
[38:40] that
[38:40] um and you know what have you learned
[38:43] from this and all those sorts of things
[38:45] well that ongoing conversation over a
[38:48] period
[38:49] only a few months i guess this entire
[38:53] process
[38:54] of discovery from
[38:58] you know the first time i ate those
[38:59] morning glory seeds
[39:01] that would have been 1963 and then we
[39:05] were talking about 1967.
[39:09] oh so much had happened in those three
[39:13] years and so much had been learned
[39:16] well when we reached this huge
[39:18] culmination
[39:19] which was really 1967 68 in terms of
[39:23] uh well at least what i could tell from
[39:25] my perspective that
[39:26] you know we reached this peak of a huge
[39:28] number of people and a lot of them
[39:30] you know university students intelligent
[39:32] people thoughtful people
[39:34] people had much more serious aspirations
[39:37] beyond just having a good time
[39:40] we were talking about this and they
[39:42] acquainted me
[39:44] people who had resources that i didn't
[39:47] or
[39:47] even knew things that existed and and so
[39:50] therefore were willing to look for them
[39:51] i didn't know they existed so i never
[39:53] looked for them right
[39:55] you know and they told me about it and i
[39:57] got excited
[39:58] i mean i remember being
[40:02] told very enthusiastically excitedly by
[40:05] a couple of people
[40:06] you know oh you've never heard of this
[40:08] you've never heard of that well let me
[40:09] tell you about
[40:10] this and it's like oh my god this was
[40:13] even more eye-opening
[40:15] than taking lsd
[40:22] and so that was the direction that my
[40:24] interest took
[40:27] now this was another major
[40:30] crisis point in my life i basically
[40:34] allowed my hard-won spot in the
[40:38] in society as a university student
[40:42] uh some of the future in my life have
[40:44] fallen away
[40:46] remember i really had no resources other
[40:48] than my training
[40:50] and being able to be a highly valued and
[40:54] difficult to come by commodity in terms
[40:56] of my skills with electron microscopes
[40:59] and preparing specimens and everything
[41:02] like that
[41:05] so that was really the only thing i had
[41:08] and of course my background and other
[41:11] things i just i'm not going to go into
[41:13] this in depth but
[41:15] uh in the process of this
[41:22] all of these psychoactive subjects where
[41:24] substances were illicit
[41:26] and and so to become immersed in it
[41:30] the way i did was to put oneself in
[41:32] contact with the whole world of illicit
[41:34] drug trafficking
[41:36] i had these backgrounds
[41:39] i got i let myself get drawn into that
[41:43] i made possible the things that i did by
[41:47] being a distributor of marijuana
[41:52] and i ended up
[41:56] trying to stay away from but inevitably
[41:59] being
[42:01] being in contact the same people that
[42:03] were dealing marijuana were dealing
[42:04] heroin and all kinds of other things
[42:06] right and
[42:10] one of the worst things that happened to
[42:11] me was
[42:14] i had taken possession of a large
[42:16] quantity of marijuana to distribute
[42:18] and it had been stolen from me and the
[42:22] person i got it from was uh you know he
[42:24] was
[42:24] mafiosi yeah and
[42:26] [Music]
[42:29] i'm not a good position to be in a
[42:32] classic
[42:33] very very difficult position
[42:36] i won't go into the details but
[42:40] i ended up being arrested
[42:44] charged uh it was kind of a setup
[42:48] um fortunately
[42:51] for me a another series of miraculous
[42:54] events occurred
[42:56] i mean i could go into this in detail
[42:59] and
[42:59] it's another it's an incredible story
[43:02] it really is that's sound worth it truly
[43:06] i mean uh unless you feel that it really
[43:09] is not going to add anything
[43:10] to the detail
[43:13] where it's time to get on with my life
[43:15] again i've discovered a new direction
[43:18] i'm not gonna find the answers today or
[43:19] tomorrow um you know what am i gonna do
[43:22] all of a sudden damn i'm in trouble uh
[43:26] several things happen bam bam bam i find
[43:29] myself
[43:30] arrested and charged with uh
[43:33] possession of various uh drugs
[43:36] uh as i say they were it was a complex
[43:41] situation um
[43:45] there was within the mafia families at
[43:48] that time
[43:49] a huge contentious issue was drugs
[43:53] some some dawns were
[43:56] totally against anything to do with
[43:58] drugs others said this is the thing of
[44:00] the future
[44:01] uh a friend of mine another young man
[44:06] who he was very mafia
[44:11] he had dabbled in drugs and
[44:15] his family his father had
[44:18] pulled his pulled him out of that warned
[44:22] him to never do
[44:23] that again because because our family
[44:26] does not
[44:27] do drugs we do not sell drugs he started
[44:30] doing it again
[44:32] and i was a person that was distributing
[44:35] his drugs i was a person who
[44:37] you know had lost a large consignment
[44:44] so he was in a great deal of difficulty
[44:47] because if his father
[44:51] and his and the family that he was a
[44:53] part of
[44:54] discovered that he'd gotten involved in
[44:56] drugs again
[44:57] uh the consequences to him and to the
[45:01] family
[45:01] would be very great something an
[45:03] individual does
[45:05] in in that society overflows to everyone
[45:08] else
[45:09] the and there's only one way to prevent
[45:11] that overflow which
[45:13] i would imagine you recognize what it is
[45:16] the person who deviates they're either
[45:19] eliminated or else everyone shares
[45:23] the yeah
[45:27] so he was in a huge crisis i was in a
[45:30] mess
[45:30] i was in jail and
[45:36] well let me just tell you the story i
[45:38] was in jail
[45:40] they took me into the uh
[45:43] the county jail
[45:46] and the first thing that happened there
[45:50] it's a huge block all these
[45:56] six-man cells
[45:59] around the perimeter and an open area in
[46:02] the middle
[46:04] and uh
[46:07] there was one and and the inmates
[46:10] one particular group of inmates
[46:13] that they had also adapted for
[46:15] themselves to name the family
[46:18] and these were people you know the
[46:20] family would always change
[46:22] because people would be arrested they
[46:24] spend
[46:25] weeks or months days weeks or months
[46:27] whatever in the county facility
[46:30] they go to trial they eventually go to
[46:33] prisons
[46:34] things like that but there was always
[46:36] this nucleus that ran
[46:38] around the county jail facilities from
[46:40] the inside
[46:42] and that was who you know anybody new
[46:45] comes in
[46:46] you get interviewed by the family they
[46:48] decide
[46:49] so they they want to know what i was
[46:51] charged with they
[46:52] they assigned me the you know i was i
[46:54] was in the junk
[46:55] junkie tank so i was with
[46:58] seven other guys in a place with
[47:01] uh designed for six bunks but also had
[47:05] two extra mattresses on the floor
[47:07] because they didn't have enough space
[47:09] and most of these other men in the cell
[47:12] were in severe withdrawals from
[47:17] heroin and things like that
[47:22] i managed to get on the outs with the
[47:25] family
[47:26] during my stay there i was put in a
[47:30] very very difficult position
[47:33] [Music]
[47:36] i don't know if i should even disclose
[47:37] it i will okay
[47:41] there was somebody who came in
[47:44] who had been he he had
[47:47] down syndrome he was he was
[47:51] pretty severely mentally impaired he had
[47:54] been charged with
[47:55] molesting a minor
[47:58] relative of his and
[48:02] based on those charges
[48:07] and based on their antagonism towards me
[48:12] uh before they
[48:16] locked the doors to the
[48:19] group cells that night i was informed
[48:23] that i was to execute this child
[48:26] molester
[48:27] and if i didn't then i would be executed
[48:29] the next day
[48:32] well there was no way that i could do
[48:34] that
[48:36] i was awake all night i didn't know what
[48:38] to do there was nothing i could do
[48:40] i couldn't do what they asked and i
[48:42] couldn't not do it
[48:44] uh so i didn't know what and then
[48:48] they did something that is they call it
[48:50] pull chain
[48:51] and when they pull chain it means they
[48:53] call in call out those
[48:55] selected uh inmates who are going to be
[48:59] transferred to a different facility
[49:01] and usually they pulled chain after
[49:03] breakfast in the morning
[49:04] but it was before 6 a.m this
[49:08] only time in my experience and to my
[49:12] knowledge it was very
[49:12] unusual to pull chain before
[49:16] the doors were opened in the morning
[49:20] or i could say it was usually after
[49:21] breakfast but they came in and pulled
[49:24] chain and they called out my name
[49:27] i was extracted oh my word
[49:32] like like the noose was already around
[49:35] my neck
[49:36] and wow it was led away from the gallows
[49:40] and so i was transferred to a county
[49:46] work farm
[49:48] a very different environment
[49:51] and that's where i was approaching time
[49:54] for my
[49:55] trial but during this period
[50:01] the person that i had been involved with
[50:04] pulled a bunch of strings and
[50:08] um well what happened is
[50:11] as there was a meeting with the lawyer
[50:14] that
[50:15] uh with with the lawyer that had been
[50:18] assigned to me
[50:20] and uh a couple of
[50:23] of uh lawyers from you know the
[50:27] the family of the person i dealt with
[50:30] and
[50:33] the deal that they had made was that uh
[50:37] they would get all the charges against
[50:39] me dropped
[50:40] but i had to leave texas and never ever
[50:42] return
[50:45] on on penalty of uh yeah
[50:49] wow so anyway i ended up
[50:58] a year later i was invited to
[51:02] go to canada as part of a team that had
[51:04] been assembled to put together a new
[51:07] cardiac research facility in winnipeg
[51:10] manitoba
[51:11] and i was in charge of setting up
[51:13] electron microscope lab there
[51:15] i was actually employed at medical
[51:18] school in st
[51:19] louis and became
[51:23] uh liked and favored by
[51:27] uh a number of people there and one of
[51:29] those people was somebody was just
[51:30] finishing his post-doc
[51:32] had a glorious career ahead of him he
[51:35] was
[51:35] very promising he had received what in
[51:38] those days was a huge grant
[51:41] to come to canada and set up this
[51:43] cardiac research
[51:45] laboratory including an electron
[51:47] microscope facility which in those days
[51:49] was pretty rare
[51:50] yeah and he tapped me to come as a part
[51:54] of his
[51:54] team on a two-year contract to
[51:58] set up that electron microscope facility
[52:03] and well i didn't stay two years i
[52:07] stayed 28.
[52:10] in that time i went from being a member
[52:13] of the team
[52:14] a lab technician basically was my
[52:18] title to
[52:22] you know i completed my undergraduate
[52:24] degrees
[52:25] uh a degree in winnipeg university of
[52:28] winnipeg
[52:29] then i became a graduate student well
[52:31] actually
[52:32] yes yeah i became a graduate student at
[52:35] the
[52:35] university of manitoba medical school
[52:39] which involved some string pulling once
[52:41] again
[52:45] um
[52:46] but as a matter of fact they offered me
[52:48] a place in medical
[52:49] in incoming medical class first and i
[52:51] said i don't want to be a doctor
[52:53] you know um so instead i
[52:57] became a graduate student and a master's
[52:58] degree phd and
[53:01] everything after that
[53:03] [Music]
[53:05] so i got my life back together but i
[53:07] also had this new direction
[53:09] that i was working with in parallel
[53:14] [Music]
[53:17] coming out of the psychedelic experience
[53:20] having newly tapped into and begun
[53:23] trying to practice
[53:24] meditation and learning more about
[53:26] eastern disciplines
[53:28] well it was not too long after i arrived
[53:32] in at the university of manitoba medical
[53:34] school
[53:35] sorry uh i'm so sorry to interrupt you
[53:38] but
[53:39] you did you did start off at one point
[53:41] and then i
[53:42] interrupted you where you had spoken
[53:44] about you had started looking at
[53:46] viva kananda um so
[53:49] can we perhaps just talk a little bit
[53:51] how you how you're progressing
[53:53] into that um and and what you
[53:56] learned and and the limitations because
[53:59] i know you've talked a little bit about
[54:00] this before
[54:02] well i loved everything
[54:06] that i was learning that i was reading
[54:08] in these different books
[54:10] the in terms of practice what i focused
[54:13] on was
[54:14] uh viva cananda's translation
[54:18] of patanjali's yoga sutas
[54:21] yoga pictures sorry slipping into the
[54:23] polygon
[54:26] the yoga sutras patanjali
[54:29] and even today there's hundreds of
[54:32] translations of that but patanjali's i
[54:34] think is still
[54:37] well it may have been because it was my
[54:38] first experience and i just
[54:40] just worked and reworked every word and
[54:44] phrase and sentence in there trying to
[54:45] understand what it was
[54:47] and using it as a guide to meditate
[54:50] and anybody who's familiar with the yoga
[54:54] sutras will realize what
[54:56] uh basically what a futile endeavor that
[54:59] is to self-teach
[55:00] using that as your manual but i
[55:04] nevertheless
[55:06] because i tried so hard i mean i
[55:08] approached this exactly the same way as
[55:10] i became a seminarian and i got up every
[55:12] morning and time to do the stations of
[55:14] the cross
[55:15] so i started sitting at
[55:18] and trying to understand what it is that
[55:22] uh the words of viva canada translated
[55:24] what it is that they were
[55:25] pointing towards and i learned a lot
[55:28] in a kind of trial and error away and i
[55:31] can't say that i ever really succeeded
[55:33] in meditating and the intention in in
[55:36] the way it was intended and the way it
[55:37] was being talked about
[55:39] but it was still a vast treasure
[55:42] of experiential learning to just to try
[55:46] was this at the same time as as uh was
[55:49] this
[55:50] before you came to canada that you had
[55:51] started this yes i
[55:53] i started in houston i continued it in
[55:55] st louis and i continued it
[55:57] in winnipeg this is what i was about to
[56:00] get to
[56:00] was a few months after i arrived in uh
[56:04] in winnipeg one of the the wife
[56:07] of one of the faculty members had become
[56:10] very involved in the
[56:12] transcendental meditation movement
[56:15] which i hadn't even heard of until then
[56:18] and but you know i had been talking to
[56:21] people
[56:23] who were interested in the things that i
[56:25] was doing
[56:26] and so she heard about that and she said
[56:29] she came to me and said would you be
[56:31] interested in and yes i would
[56:34] and so then i had for the first time in
[56:36] my life
[56:37] some real instruction in
[56:41] a form of meditation and this was an
[56:43] incredible experience for me
[56:46] and i was i was so
[56:50] taken by it that i wanted to
[56:54] i i wanted to get into it very deeply
[56:56] how do you get into it more deeply well
[56:58] in i don't know how it is today it's
[57:00] probably similar but
[57:02] at that time well you go through the
[57:04] initiation
[57:05] you practice you go back where you
[57:07] ability you learn more
[57:10] the you know there's a progression you
[57:12] can follow
[57:14] one of the first things that you do is
[57:15] you become a meditation checker
[57:18] so for somebody that comes into it when
[57:20] you're learning to meditate
[57:21] after your initiation you go back in the
[57:24] meditation checker you meditate with
[57:25] them and then they talk to you about it
[57:28] so i became a meditation checker and
[57:30] then i wanted to become a meditation
[57:32] teacher so i started on that path
[57:35] before i got very far on that though
[57:39] i encountered uh my first buddhist
[57:41] teacher
[57:42] uh uh kananda
[57:46] and well i'll tell you how this came
[57:50] about
[57:52] my wife was cooking in one of the first
[57:55] natural foods restaurants in north
[57:58] america
[57:59] certainly one of the first in the
[58:00] canadian prairies
[58:03] and
[58:06] one night someone came in
[58:11] uh who played uh subahr
[58:14] which is like a large version of a sitar
[58:18] and when he he performed
[58:21] some beautiful music and with an
[58:24] instrument that i had never seen before
[58:26] i'd always loved music and i'd learned
[58:28] to play a number of musical instruments
[58:30] in my life already
[58:33] my interest in musical and musical
[58:35] instruments had
[58:36] caused me about six months earlier
[58:39] to purchase a smashed
[58:42] sitar from a fellow graduate student
[58:49] um uh this this graduate student was
[58:54] east indian he went back to india to
[58:57] mary and one of his wife's
[59:01] wedding presents was a beautiful sitar i
[59:03] had that sitar today
[59:06] the gourd the main gourd on it got
[59:08] smashed
[59:09] on the airplane and
[59:13] he sold it to me for 25
[59:17] i had no idea what i was going to do
[59:19] with it i it was just a fascinating
[59:21] instrument
[59:22] and i fantasied that someday i would
[59:25] put it together and learn to play it
[59:27] [Music]
[59:28] typically unrealistic typical me uh and
[59:32] so it sat
[59:34] all the pieces in a bag for months then
[59:36] i saw this
[59:37] man playing a larger version of the same
[59:39] instrument
[59:40] on stage in front of me even more than
[59:43] that
[59:43] was fascinating is that
[59:47] when he took a break there were a number
[59:49] of people in the restaurant
[59:51] who got up and went with him and
[59:54] he went outside and what were they doing
[59:56] so i kind of
[59:57] got up and went outside mean i was just
[1:00:00] hanging out in the restaurant because my
[1:00:02] life was cooking in there at the time
[1:00:04] my wife at the time was cooking there so
[1:00:07] i kind of followed them out and what
[1:00:09] they were doing is they were
[1:00:11] chanting together and they all had these
[1:00:13] strings of beads that
[1:00:14] as they chanted together that they were
[1:00:16] passing through their fingers
[1:00:19] and i was like wow what is this all
[1:00:21] about you know
[1:00:22] i was fascinated anyway before he left
[1:00:26] that night i approached camera
[1:00:29] and i said by the way i have this sitar
[1:00:31] that's broken do you think you could
[1:00:32] help me
[1:00:34] repair it and so he gave me an address
[1:00:37] he said come and see me
[1:00:39] uh you know it's funny the things you
[1:00:42] remember
[1:00:42] after all come and see me uh thursday
[1:00:45] afternoon at this address
[1:00:48] and bring your sitar with you
[1:00:52] over the ensuing weeks and this was
[1:00:56] once a week and then it became twice a
[1:00:58] week we gradually reassembled
[1:01:01] gluing together these pieces using a
[1:01:05] tuning fork
[1:01:06] to tell whether the joint was
[1:01:09] was good or not and if it wasn't good
[1:01:11] then we'd have to rework it
[1:01:13] he had kind of had very
[1:01:16] high standards of workmanship
[1:01:19] that he held himself to which i
[1:01:22] benefited greatly from this
[1:01:25] so we would sit and we would work on
[1:01:28] piecing together like a jigsaw puzzle
[1:01:30] and gluing in place all of these
[1:01:32] fractured pieces of the main board on
[1:01:35] the sitar
[1:01:37] eventually redoing uh all of the
[1:01:39] woodwork
[1:01:40] everything else you know to turn it into
[1:01:42] a serviceable
[1:01:44] instrument and all the while he would
[1:01:46] talk to me about buddhism
[1:01:48] and i was fascinated by everything that
[1:01:51] he said
[1:01:52] i remember the one thing that he said
[1:01:54] that made the most profound
[1:01:57] impression on me is he said about the
[1:02:00] buddha's teaching
[1:02:01] he said the buddha said don't take
[1:02:04] my word for any of this come
[1:02:07] and see for yourself now that
[1:02:11] is the scientific approach right that is
[1:02:14] also the most rational approach
[1:02:16] i was very disenchanted with taking
[1:02:19] anything on faith from anyone anywhere
[1:02:21] been there done that what i wasn't going
[1:02:23] to make that mistake again
[1:02:26] and to be presented with the most
[1:02:29] systematic and coherent doctrine
[1:02:32] of spiritual development that i've ever
[1:02:34] heard of in my life
[1:02:36] and to be told don't take my word for
[1:02:40] any of this just try it see for yourself
[1:02:44] then i felt like yeah i i was home
[1:02:48] yeah i mean that is just
[1:02:52] perhaps i'm reading too much into it but
[1:02:54] um
[1:02:55] you know the kissmet of of having that
[1:02:58] broken
[1:02:58] sitter and then meeting this person and
[1:03:01] and
[1:03:02] when uh so much of that you speak in tmi
[1:03:06] you speak about the whole unification of
[1:03:07] mind basically putting your mind
[1:03:09] together
[1:03:10] uh to into a serviceable instrument
[1:03:13] right uh i mean it's you know
[1:03:16] from a psychoanalytical point of view
[1:03:19] that's pretty amazing
[1:03:20] and then uh that
[1:03:24] is i'm not sure which instrument it was
[1:03:26] but
[1:03:27] um in the the suitors where they
[1:03:30] they the buddha does the famous
[1:03:33] discourse on
[1:03:34] on the strings not being too taught or
[1:03:36] to was it a setup
[1:03:38] or something something similar it was it
[1:03:40] would it was an instrument
[1:03:42] similar to a sitar i don't think it was
[1:03:45] a sitar
[1:03:46] i think it may have been one of the
[1:03:47] predecessors too it was a strange
[1:03:49] instrument
[1:03:50] strict instrument yeah and um
[1:03:56] the thing about many
[1:03:59] indian instruments is that they usually
[1:04:01] have
[1:04:02] sympathetic strings which must be tuned
[1:04:05] to each other
[1:04:06] and to the main strings in a way that
[1:04:09] produces that
[1:04:10] that they vibrate sympathetically i mean
[1:04:12] they can be strummed and they are
[1:04:14] in certain parts of the music but most
[1:04:17] of the time
[1:04:17] they're not touched but they have to be
[1:04:20] tuned just right so they resonate
[1:04:22] with the notes that you're plucking on
[1:04:24] the main string
[1:04:25] and this gives it this incredible
[1:04:27] richness yes
[1:04:30] yes and so you need to know that about
[1:04:34] musical instruments in order not to to
[1:04:37] mistake it like tuning a guitar or like
[1:04:40] tuning
[1:04:41] a modern western loot which is a guitar
[1:04:44] like instrument
[1:04:45] we're not just talking about tuning the
[1:04:48] strings
[1:04:49] in in a good enough way to produce a
[1:04:52] recognizable melody
[1:04:54] we're talking about tuning a lot of
[1:04:56] strings in such a way that they're in
[1:04:58] perfect resonance with each other
[1:05:00] wow as a matter of fact just telling you
[1:05:03] this i realized
[1:05:05] that learning to play sitar learning to
[1:05:07] tune a sitar
[1:05:09] discovering the incredible potential
[1:05:12] that there is
[1:05:13] in finding that exact resonance
[1:05:16] the experience of thinking you found it
[1:05:19] and oh isn't this lovely
[1:05:20] and then somebody else coming along and
[1:05:22] helping you a little bit later
[1:05:24] and discovering oh there's a whole new
[1:05:26] dimension of sound
[1:05:28] that because i hadn't quite gotten all
[1:05:31] of these
[1:05:32] strings each individual string not too
[1:05:35] loose and not too tight you know
[1:05:39] that had a profound format that was a
[1:05:42] profound informative experience in
[1:05:44] itself
[1:05:44] it helped me to understand a lot of
[1:05:46] things since
[1:05:48] but yeah that's that's that's what that
[1:05:51] reference is about
[1:05:52] yeah what what year are we talking about
[1:05:54] here uh more or less
[1:05:56] oh we'd be talking about i guess 1970
[1:06:00] 1970 yeah so it's also about the same
[1:06:03] time that ravi shankar
[1:06:04] was introduced to to the west and
[1:06:08] and you know there was this influx of of
[1:06:11] eastern culture uh yeah
[1:06:14] i discovered ravi shankar and
[1:06:17] i bought i think the first album that he
[1:06:20] produced in
[1:06:21] a vinyl album and uh in the us
[1:06:26] amazing yeah so you know there was this
[1:06:29] there's there was this um
[1:06:31] interaction between the time the
[1:06:33] zeitgeist and your
[1:06:35] experiences that were just perfectly
[1:06:37] aligned to push you in
[1:06:38] in this this direction um
[1:06:41] so i think that we've we've run out of
[1:06:44] time for
[1:06:45] today um before i let you go though can
[1:06:47] i just ask you you did say that you had
[1:06:49] learned to play other musical
[1:06:50] instruments were you self-taught and
[1:06:52] which instruments were we talking about
[1:06:55] well uh what i had learned to play
[1:07:01] the only experience i had in school it
[1:07:04] was of any meaning or value to me
[1:07:07] since i was horrible at everything else
[1:07:09] and couldn't you know was
[1:07:10] extremely uncomfortable with the
[1:07:13] classroom the only thing that really
[1:07:14] appealed to me was band
[1:07:17] and so uh my the first musical
[1:07:20] instrument i learned
[1:07:22] was clarinet and as a matter of fact
[1:07:25] the only days that i would the only
[1:07:27] thing i would go to school for
[1:07:29] were the band lessons
[1:07:33] and of course i got my own clarinet and
[1:07:36] so i could play at home so even though i
[1:07:38] only went
[1:07:38] i only made it to maybe two or three
[1:07:41] band classes in a week at most
[1:07:44] uh and i loved it and my mother was very
[1:07:48] musical my father was very musical
[1:07:50] they both played piano my mother sang
[1:07:53] i was very familiar with music i loved
[1:07:55] it and it was something it was
[1:07:57] one of the positive aspects of my family
[1:08:00] life
[1:08:01] was was music i mean
[1:08:04] uh with all the other things i said
[1:08:06] about my father he would also come home
[1:08:09] and from work and releases tensions by
[1:08:13] playing the piano just playing gorgeous
[1:08:15] piano music
[1:08:17] uh and so anyway i started out with the
[1:08:20] clarinet
[1:08:21] then i was introduced to the saxophone
[1:08:23] then the oboe
[1:08:25] and i love the oboe i was taught to make
[1:08:27] my own
[1:08:28] reeds and i played played the oboe so i
[1:08:32] was mostly involved with
[1:08:34] wind instruments and
[1:08:38] in my early university years
[1:08:41] i was introduced to guitar and i had a
[1:08:44] really
[1:08:45] cheap crappy plastic guitar
[1:08:49] that that i got hold of for for free
[1:08:53] and so i'd self-taught myself a little
[1:08:55] bit on the guitar but and never
[1:08:58] probably largely do the quality of the
[1:08:59] instrument i would never
[1:09:01] well also the fact that between working
[1:09:04] uh working 20 hours a week and carrying
[1:09:07] a very full-time load at university
[1:09:09] there wasn't time it wasn't something
[1:09:11] but that was my first string dancer and
[1:09:13] my second string
[1:09:14] instrument was this uh this sitar that i
[1:09:17] got on a whim
[1:09:19] you know and by the way back in uh back
[1:09:22] in
[1:09:22] 1969 1970 25
[1:09:26] for a graduate student was a hell of a
[1:09:28] was a lot of money
[1:09:29] and i presume that you know your average
[1:09:31] music shop did not have a lot of sitters
[1:09:33] lying around
[1:09:34] either no absolutely not so
[1:09:37] so you really found a kind of a gem in a
[1:09:40] sense that's true
[1:09:41] yes i do yeah wow
[1:09:44] amazing right so i think next time we
[1:09:46] will we will begin with
[1:09:48] uh with kemahananda and
[1:09:51] uh your experiences with him mending the
[1:09:54] sitar
[1:09:55] and and getting involved uh with the
[1:09:58] buddhist teachings
[1:09:59] through him this has been really
[1:10:01] fascinating um i think the thing that
[1:10:03] always strikes me is
[1:10:05] that the amazing swings that your life
[1:10:07] went through you know
[1:10:08] it wasn't there was no there was no um
[1:10:12] you were certainly not walking a middle
[1:10:14] way in terms of your life it was you
[1:10:16] know
[1:10:17] really amazing heights that you were
[1:10:19] reaching and then
[1:10:21] swinging completely to the other end
[1:10:22] which i think was pretty amazing and
[1:10:24] then back again
[1:10:25] well i averaged the middleway yeah
[1:10:31] yeah i'll give you that um all right so
[1:10:34] i'm going to stop the recording now
[1:10:36] and we will continue next week
[1:10:45] you