Transcript
[0:07] We heard from moms all over the country
[0:09] who've lived through postpartum
[0:11] psychosis. You thought hearing voices
[0:14] that were telling you to kill yourself
[0:16] and your children.
[0:17] >> I had my son in the baby bath and he
[0:19] began to cry in the bath and I heard as
[0:22] if a man had walked up behind me and
[0:23] whispered in my right ear, it will stop
[0:26] if you hold him under the water.
[0:27] >> I started to hear what I call the voice
[0:29] of God.
[0:29] >> Did you say your daughter was the second
[0:30] coming of Jesus?
[0:31] >> Oh, yeah.
[0:32] >> Maegan Hamp is a labor and delivery
[0:35] nurse who worked with Lindsay Clancy for
[0:37] 7 years. She testified on behalf of the
[0:40] defense. How would you describe Lindsay
[0:42] as a nurse, as a friend, as a mother?
[0:46] What was your first reaction when you
[0:50] heard that Lindsay Clancy had murdered
[0:53] her children?
[0:56] >> The breaking headline outside Boston
[0:58] tonight.
[0:58] >> It's a case that's captivating the
[1:00] country.
[1:01] >> is a case that has divided people.
[1:03] >> I'm going to declare that the jury is
[1:05] deadlocked and I'm going to declare a
[1:07] mistrial.
[1:08] >> The 36-year-old mother, wife, and nurse,
[1:12] Lindsay Clancy, was charged with
[1:14] first-degree murder for strangling her
[1:15] three children to death. Her daughter,
[1:18] Cora, and two sons, Dawson and Callan.
[1:23] After 21 days of testimony from more
[1:25] than 80 witnesses, the jury was not able
[1:28] to reach a unanimous decision. The
[1:30] prosecution has not yet announced if
[1:33] they will try the case again.
[1:36] >> Cora's into princesses.
[1:40] >> And Dawson
[1:43] >> He's into firefighters and trucks.
[1:48] >> And Callan is toys.
[1:50] >> He's just a happy baby.
[1:52] >> The defense argued Lindsay Clancy was
[1:54] suffering from postpartum psychosis and
[1:57] that despite repeated requests for help,
[1:59] Lindsay was over medicated by doctors
[2:02] and was not provided proper psychiatric
[2:04] care.
[2:05] >> She was a darn good mother.
[2:07] Her mind was gone.
[2:14] >> The prosecution alleged that Lindsay
[2:16] Clancy planned the murders and may have
[2:19] faked a suicide attempt that left her
[2:21] paralyzed from the waist down.
[2:23] >> She left them
[2:25] discarded on the basement floor
[2:27] like broken toys
[2:30] because she was done playing the game.
[2:32] >> The trial has divided our nation.
[2:35] >> Everybody failed that woman.
[2:37] >> I wholeheartedly
[2:39] think she did not do it.
[2:40] >> I care what any of you say, Lindsay
[2:42] Clancy is guilty.
[2:43] >> When I had postpartum psychosis, I had
[2:45] some of the scariest, darkest thoughts
[2:48] to the point where I knew I could not
[2:50] physically
[2:52] hold my baby.
[2:53] I had to give him to my husband.
[2:55] >> And this is a topic that needs to go
[2:57] further than just this trial.
[3:01] >> I agree with that. That's why we're
[3:02] here. So thank you for joining me here
[3:05] on the Oprah podcast along with millions
[3:07] of other Americans and people all over
[3:09] the world. I too have been following the
[3:11] Lindsay Clancy case and the loss of
[3:14] three innocent and defenseless little
[3:17] children
[3:18] who did not deserve to die that way is
[3:22] just too horrific to really comprehend.
[3:26] And no matter what the lawyers argue and
[3:29] a possible future jury decides
[3:32] how can we begin to reconcile the
[3:35] senseless deaths of three
[3:38] precious children at the hands of their
[3:41] mother. This case
[3:43] is another flash point in America that
[3:45] has created yet another divide and as we
[3:49] watch the country
[3:50] buckle under the weight of such
[3:54] an unfathomable act with all of the
[3:56] opinions and the speculations and the
[3:59] conspiracy theories. And yes, a lot a
[4:02] lot of vitriol on all sides.
[4:05] The question I want to ask is how did we
[4:08] get here?
[4:10] And how can we best use this moment,
[4:14] this watershed moment
[4:18] to honor the lives of Cora,
[4:22] 5 years old,
[4:25] Dawson,
[4:27] 3 years old,
[4:30] and Callan,
[4:32] who only lived 8 months
[4:35] here on the planet Earth.
[4:38] How can we do that and protect families
[4:41] and women
[4:43] and especially
[4:45] children?
[4:47] So, let's just have a moment of silence
[4:49] to think about Cora, Dawson, and Callan.
[5:02] Cora,
[5:04] Dawson,
[5:07] and Callan.
[5:10] We come to Boston to have this
[5:11] conversation and we're about 30 miles
[5:14] from Duxbury, Massachusetts, where
[5:17] on January 24th, 2023, Cora,
[5:21] Dawson, and Callan were killed.
[5:25] And I have to say we're not here to
[5:27] retry Lindsay Clancy's case or debate
[5:31] the minute details or online theories.
[5:36] I've been talking to mothers who
[5:37] suffered from postpartum mental health
[5:39] issues now for decades. And way back
[5:43] when, when we first started having these
[5:45] conversations on the Oprah Winfrey show
[5:47] as early as 1986.
[5:50] There was not even a language for it.
[5:52] Nobody called it anything except these
[5:55] women are monsters or these women are
[5:57] evil. And over the years, I've
[5:59] interviewed many, many, many mothers who
[6:02] have killed their children. And we can
[6:04] all see that the deaths of Cora, Dawson,
[6:07] and Callan have caused this national
[6:10] conversation to shift and erupt like
[6:12] never before. So, that's why I wanted to
[6:15] bring together doctors and psychiatrists
[6:17] and legal scholars and journalists and
[6:19] parents here today to Boston to unpack
[6:23] what has been blowing up on social
[6:25] media, on your family text chains, at
[6:29] work, and in the school parking lot. And
[6:31] my intention here today is to
[6:35] ask this question. How can we, as a
[6:39] culture,
[6:40] as a society,
[6:42] do better?
[6:44] How do we use this moment to move
[6:47] ourselves forward and not just all of
[6:51] our opinions and yakking about it? For
[6:53] something this big Can you feel it?
[6:55] Something this this big in the culture
[6:57] means the culture is supposed to shift.
[6:59] It feels to me like, you know, many
[7:01] other movements that I've witnessed
[7:03] who've been old enough to witness, you
[7:05] know, when there was a time when people
[7:07] just drove drunk and they killed people
[7:09] and nobody said anything. And then what
[7:12] was created? The Mothers Against Drunk
[7:13] Drivers. And that movement really
[7:15] changed the way we looked at alcohol and
[7:18] the consumption of alcohol and
[7:20] alcoholism in this country. It changed
[7:23] the laws for driving. It
[7:26] and saved so many lives. So, today,
[7:29] we want to use this seminal moment to
[7:31] move forward. And I want to start by
[7:32] introducing Meg Hamp. She is a labor and
[7:37] delivery nurse who worked with Lindsay
[7:39] Clancy for 7 years. And you may
[7:41] recognize Meg because she testified on
[7:44] behalf of the defense and here's a short
[7:46] part of it.
[7:47] >> Were you aware of any incidents where
[7:49] Lindsey was with you and a and a woman
[7:52] did in fact express concern that she
[7:54] wanted to hurt herself or her child?
[7:57] >> There were
[7:58] there was um
[8:00] a particular patient that Lindsey was
[8:03] um on staff
[8:05] when this patient arrived. It was a a
[8:08] patient that arrived to the unit that
[8:10] had plans to harm herself while she was
[8:12] pregnant.
[8:14] And
[8:15] we had a conversation. Lindsey was brand
[8:17] new. Um it was the summer that she had
[8:20] just started.
[8:21] Um and we had a conversation about
[8:23] mental health in pregnancy and
[8:25] postpartum.
[8:27] Um and and I
[8:30] asked her if she had ever heard of the
[8:33] Andrea Yates case and she hadn't.
[8:36] And I explained that to her and she
[8:38] cried.
[8:40] And she said, "How could a mother hurt
[8:41] her children?"
[8:44] >> Hi Meg.
[8:44] >> Hi.
[8:45] >> Thank you. This is Meg's first time that
[8:47] you're speaking, you know, outside of
[8:49] the trial. So thank you for being here
[8:51] with us today.
[8:52] >> Thank you.
[8:52] >> Um how would you describe Lindsey as a
[8:55] nurse, as a friend, as a mother?
[8:59] >> Lindsey loved being a nurse. She was a
[9:02] light on our unit. She brought warmth
[9:06] and compassion to the room. She brought
[9:08] emotion to the rooms that we were in.
[9:11] Um
[9:12] I loved working with her. I think our
[9:14] team loved working with her.
[9:17] Um she just she brought a a piece to our
[9:19] team that nobody else has been able to
[9:22] bring.
[9:22] >> Mhm.
[9:23] >> Uh I often remember
[9:25] um looking up after a baby was born and
[9:27] Lindsey was my second nurse in the
[9:29] delivery and just looking over the
[9:30] mother and and and Lindsey with tears in
[9:33] her eyes because birth was just so so
[9:36] for her and she felt that for so many
[9:38] other women, um not just her friends or
[9:40] her family.
[9:42] >> And so several medical experts testified
[9:44] that they believed that she um suffered
[9:48] from bipolar disorder. Did you ever see
[9:50] any signs of that?
[9:52] >> No.
[9:52] >> And you testified that you'd once
[9:54] brought up to her that you just said
[9:56] there the case of Andrea Yates. How did
[9:58] that conversation come about?
[10:00] >> We had a patient on the unit that was
[10:02] suffering from some mental health
[10:04] challenges and
[10:06] um there was just a lot of question
[10:07] around that. Lindsay being a new nurse,
[10:09] um and there was another new nurse on
[10:11] the floor at the time and I had asked I
[10:13] just asked her if she had ever heard of
[10:15] the Andrea Yates case um
[10:17] and and she hadn't. Um it seems like
[10:20] such a a big case in the maternal health
[10:23] world.
[10:24] >> Mhm.
[10:24] >> Um but Lindsay was at that age where she
[10:27] probably hadn't kind of lived through
[10:29] that. Um I'm a little bit older than
[10:31] Lindsay. Um so that it that story was
[10:34] just
[10:34] >> interviewing Andrea Yates' husband and
[10:36] doing a whole series of shows around
[10:38] Andrea Yates. Yes.
[10:39] >> Yeah.
[10:40] >> And
[10:41] what I was saying earlier at the time of
[10:43] Andrea Yates, everyone just you know,
[10:46] first of all, we didn't have social
[10:48] media then, but a number of people just
[10:51] felt because obviously the first time
[10:53] she was convicted of murder and a lot of
[10:56] people just thought that here was this
[10:58] evil woman who killed her kids and
[10:59] nobody understood it. So now we're 25
[11:02] years later.
[11:04] >> Right. And people still don't understand
[11:06] it.
[11:06] >> still don't understand it. What was
[11:10] your first reaction when you as her
[11:13] friend and as her
[11:16] a comrade in working
[11:18] um
[11:19] realized or had heard that she'd
[11:21] murdered her children, that Lindsay
[11:23] Clancy had murdered her children?
[11:26] >> Oh, first I didn't believe it.
[11:27] >> Yeah.
[11:29] >> Lindsay
[11:29] >> How did you hear?
[11:31] >> Um
[11:32] I had a a phone call from a a colleague.
[11:37] Um we weren't 100% sure what had
[11:39] happened, but at the the address was
[11:40] hitting the news.
[11:42] Um and I knew her address, so I knew
[11:44] that something had happened.
[11:45] >> Mhm.
[11:46] >> Um and then
[11:48] co-workers were chatting um
[11:50] >> Mhm.
[11:51] >> and
[11:52] that's how we we we learned what
[11:53] happened.
[11:54] >> So you heard it and you didn't believe
[11:56] it.
[11:56] >> Didn't believe it.
[11:58] >> Because you knew her.
[12:00] >> She
[12:01] loved her children. She lived for her
[12:03] children. She
[12:05] did everything for them. She wanted all
[12:08] the parenting tips.
[12:10] Um it it wasn't possible in my mind that
[12:14] this was a person who could murder her
[12:16] three children.
[12:18] >> So what was your reaction when you heard
[12:20] that there was a mistrial?
[12:22] >> I was devastated for her that she
[12:24] potentially has to go through this
[12:25] again.
[12:26] >> Mhm.
[12:28] And what do you want to say to people
[12:29] and there are lots of them who believe
[12:31] that Lindsay Clancy is just evil?
[12:37] >> I think
[12:40] mental health can affect anyone.
[12:43] Um
[12:44] it can affect the person who goes to
[12:46] their dream college
[12:49] meets the man of their dreams, decides
[12:51] to have a family, buys a house, buys
[12:54] another house as their family grows
[12:56] and it doesn't matter where you are in
[12:59] life or how many boxes on your life's
[13:02] bucket list you're checking off as you
[13:04] go.
[13:05] It can impact anyone regardless of where
[13:08] you are in your life.
[13:10] Um and this has been very eye-opening
[13:13] that someone like Lindsay
[13:14] who was checking off those boxes of her
[13:16] life's bucket list, that this could
[13:18] happen to her.
[13:21] >> Thank you, Meg.
[13:21] >> Thank you.
[13:22] >> Thank you. So we heard from moms all
[13:24] over the country and have who've lived
[13:28] through postpartum psychosis, two are
[13:31] joining us. Brooke, you say that
[13:33] Lindsey's story actually hits so close
[13:36] to home for you. How so? Will you share
[13:38] your story with us?
[13:40] >> When Lindsey's story came across my
[13:42] social media fill um screen, I
[13:46] I literally said,
[13:48] "This is an alternate reality.
[13:50] This is my personal life as an alternate
[13:52] reality."
[13:54] And up until
[13:56] Lindsey's case went public,
[13:58] I hadn't even told my own husband some
[14:00] of the darkest
[14:02] thoughts I'd had when I was going
[14:04] through postpartum psychosis.
[14:06] My postpartum psychosis um started when
[14:09] my son was 10 days old.
[14:11] And I remember the first hallucination
[14:15] and I was convinced there was a man
[14:16] outside our house with a gun just there
[14:18] to murder me.
[14:19] >> Could you see him?
[14:20] >> I could see his shadow through
[14:23] our blinds.
[14:24] >> Yeah. Did you tell your husband at the
[14:26] time?
[14:26] >> at my husband who was I was standing
[14:29] holding our baby rocking him to sleep
[14:30] and he was in the bed. I was standing
[14:33] next to our bed and I looked at him
[14:35] and I looked back at the window and I
[14:37] was like, "I still see the man." And I
[14:39] looked at him and he wasn't reacting and
[14:42] I thought,
[14:43] "If he's not reacting, is he there?"
[14:46] And I turned my back to the window
[14:49] and I just kept I just breathed in my
[14:51] baby
[14:53] and I was like,
[14:54] "I don't know if this is happening."
[14:57] And
[14:58] that was the first time
[15:02] >> But did you mention it?
[15:04] >> No.
[15:04] >> You did not mention it.
[15:05] >> not mention it at that point.
[15:07] >> Mhm.
[15:08] >> I continued to have hallucinations and
[15:11] around 6 weeks postpartum, I became
[15:15] extremely suicidal.
[15:17] Um and I still
[15:20] didn't mention it.
[15:21] >> You were having suicidal thoughts?
[15:24] >> Yes, I was having
[15:26] uh suicide ideations, intrusive thoughts
[15:29] about suicide that would come out of
[15:31] nowhere, and it would just be a movie
[15:34] playing in my mind.
[15:35] >> Okay, so
[15:36] one of the things the prosecution
[15:38] stressed throughout this is how normal
[15:41] Lindsay Clancy seemed during other parts
[15:44] of the day. So, did you feel feel normal
[15:47] during other parts of the day?
[15:49] >> Yes.
[15:49] Felt normal?
[15:50] >> Or were you just pretending to be
[15:52] normal?
[15:53] >> Um so,
[15:55] postpartum psychosis waxes and wanes,
[15:57] and I wish I had understood that because
[15:59] I was actually gaslighting myself.
[16:01] >> You were gaslighting yourself.
[16:02] >> normal.
[16:03] >> Yeah.
[16:03] >> That what I was going through maybe
[16:05] wasn't that bad, that maybe I actually
[16:07] didn't
[16:08] see that,
[16:10] and maybe it was like a dream.
[16:12] >> Can you tell us why in that moment you
[16:14] wouldn't say to your husband, "Did you
[16:16] see somebody out by the window?"
[16:19] >> Um
[16:21] I was I don't know why I didn't in that
[16:24] moment,
[16:25] and I continued to not. I had
[16:28] experienced postpartum depression and
[16:29] anxiety with my previous children.
[16:31] >> Mhm. So, with the other three children,
[16:33] it took the form of what? Cuz we want
[16:35] we're going to be talking to doctors
[16:36] later to distinguish There is a distinct
[16:39] difference between depression and
[16:41] psychosis. So, you'd been depressed
[16:43] before, meaning what? You felt down? You
[16:46] know, back in the old days, people
[16:47] didn't have a name for it, they just
[16:48] called it the baby blues.
[16:50] >> Right, which is a separate thing.
[16:52] >> Yeah.
[16:52] >> And I
[16:53] um postpartum depression for me manifest
[16:56] with a heavy depression, a darkness,
[16:59] like I just a weight, a cloud. It's kind
[17:02] of like it's hard to get out of bed, but
[17:05] I still
[17:06] want to take care of my kids. I just
[17:09] am unmotivated to. I want to take care
[17:11] of myself, but
[17:13] I don't
[17:15] find the motivation to do it. I have to
[17:17] make myself do it.
[17:18] >> Yeah.
[17:19] So, you'd felt that before.
[17:20] >> Yeah.
[17:21] >> This was different.
[17:22] >> This was different and this came on
[17:25] sudden.
[17:25] >> So, okay, the 10 days, you see the man
[17:28] and then what happens?
[17:29] >> Um my hallucinations
[17:32] and intrusive thoughts continue to build
[17:35] and get worse.
[17:38] And when my son was 3 months old was the
[17:41] first time I heard
[17:44] someone talking to me that wasn't there.
[17:47] >> Can you explain to us what that feels
[17:49] like?
[17:50] >> I had my son in the baby bath on the
[17:52] counter in our bathroom and he began to
[17:55] cry in the bath.
[17:57] I don't remember why
[17:59] at this point and I heard as if a man,
[18:03] it was a man's voice for me, as if a man
[18:05] had walked up behind me and whispered in
[18:07] my right ear.
[18:09] It will stop if you hold him under the
[18:10] water.
[18:11] >> Mhm.
[18:13] >> My son had just barely began to cry.
[18:18] And I stopped and I heard it again.
[18:21] Just push him under the water.
[18:25] I grabbed his towel
[18:28] and I picked him up and I ran out of the
[18:30] room crying.
[18:33] And I did not give my son another bath.
[18:37] >> So, at this point, did you tell Trevor?
[18:40] >> No.
[18:41] >> Why?
[18:42] >> I was so scared.
[18:44] I was scared my kids would be taken from
[18:46] me.
[18:47] I was scared of what would he think?
[18:51] >> What would he think?
[18:52] >> Yeah, what would he think of me?
[18:53] >> So, when the voice, cuz you're here to
[18:55] help us understand
[18:56] >> Yeah.
[18:57] >> when the voice says, "It if you just
[19:00] hold him under the water, it'll go it'll
[19:01] go away."
[19:03] >> Yeah, it stops.
[19:03] >> the solution.
[19:04] >> It stops. Okay. Does that voice then
[19:07] disappear and then you go on and you
[19:09] make lunch?
[19:10] >> Yeah. Literally.
[19:13] I ran to the family room with him. I
[19:16] didn't even drain the water.
[19:17] >> what you mean by wax and wane.
[19:19] >> Yeah. I sobbed sitting on the couch with
[19:21] him
[19:22] and dressed him.
[19:24] I dried the soap off of him.
[19:26] >> The voice comes in and then it leaves.
[19:28] It's gone.
[19:28] >> It was gone.
[19:29] >> And now you're normal again.
[19:30] >> And I was all like confused by it and
[19:35] I went and I dressed him and I helped
[19:37] the toddlers with the sippy cups
[19:40] and
[19:41] changed their diapers. I had multiple
[19:43] kids in diapers. I have four children
[19:46] under five.
[19:47] And got them a snack and we went in the
[19:50] yard.
[19:51] And I pulled out my phone and I Googled.
[19:55] I searched the hallucination like seeing
[19:59] a man who's not there, hearing voices
[20:01] that aren't there.
[20:02] >> You Googled.
[20:03] >> I did Google.
[20:04] >> Yeah.
[20:04] >> And postpartum psychosis popped up.
[20:08] And I opened the Wikipedia page on it.
[20:10] I'm pretty sure it was Wikipedia and I
[20:12] read the first few lines
[20:14] and I thought, "Oh my gosh, I think I
[20:17] have this."
[20:18] Now, this is where I should have sent
[20:20] the link or something to my husband or
[20:21] called him and said, "I think I have
[20:23] this."
[20:23] >> time has gone on now?
[20:25] >> He's about 3 months old.
[20:26] >> Wow.
[20:28] >> And
[20:29] I did not get help.
[20:31] >> Yeah. How often did you hear voices
[20:33] before you got help?
[20:35] >> My
[20:36] story goes on for 18 months undiagnosed.
[20:39] I
[20:40] >> Wow.
[20:42] >> After I realized I I was fighting a real
[20:45] mental illness, I doubled down like it
[20:49] was my mission to protect my family from
[20:51] it.
[20:52] Including my husband.
[20:53] >> Mhm.
[20:55] >> And I built up every wall
[20:58] and I faked it like my life depended on
[21:01] it because it did.
[21:02] >> What was happening to Trevor? Like I can
[21:04] see that this is hard for you to even
[21:06] hear now.
[21:08] This many years later because
[21:09] your youngest son is now
[21:11] >> Nine.
[21:11] >> Nine.
[21:13] So,
[21:14] nine years later,
[21:17] all of this comes out because of the
[21:19] Lindsay Clancy trial, you feel that
[21:23] you're looking at yourself, that it's a
[21:25] mirror of your life. And
[21:28] when you look back at that time, what do
[21:30] you what do you
[21:32] say to yourself about what was going on?
[21:34] Did you notice a difference?
[21:36] >> Um there were things I did notice. Um
[21:39] but I I didn't understand it. Like when
[21:42] she did tell me about the manic episode,
[21:43] I was like, "That doesn't make any
[21:44] sense. Why would you think that?"
[21:47] And so
[21:49] I would say I was really uneducated in
[21:51] it.
[21:52] Um to catch what was going on.
[21:55] Um
[21:56] but yeah, I don't like to look back.
[21:59] We have family photos.
[22:01] >> Yeah.
[22:02] >> Yeah.
[22:05] Maybe you tell the part.
[22:07] >> Um when our son was about 4 months old,
[22:09] I
[22:11] was in a really dark place with fighting
[22:14] it, and I knew I couldn't keep going.
[22:17] So, I planned family photos as the final
[22:20] gift.
[22:21] I wasn't even going to wait for the
[22:22] photos to come back when we got back
[22:24] from taking them.
[22:25] >> to kill yourself?
[22:26] >> That night, yeah.
[22:27] >> Yeah.
[22:28] >> Because it was my only way of protecting
[22:30] my family from myself.
[22:32] >> So, you thought if you killed yourself,
[22:33] you would do no harm to your children.
[22:35] >> Yeah.
[22:35] >> Cuz you were still having the intrusive
[22:37] thoughts about harming your children
[22:38] harming your children. Just one child or
[22:40] all the children?
[22:41] >> I actually only had intrusive thoughts
[22:42] at this point about harming my baby.
[22:44] >> Mhm.
[22:46] >> Um
[22:46] >> So, when did you get help?
[22:48] >> Well, I thought maybe it would end on
[22:50] its own.
[22:53] Nowhere at that point 10 years ago did
[22:55] it ever say it was an emergency online.
[22:58] >> Yeah.
[22:59] >> I didn't say it was an emergency, and so
[23:02] I thought maybe
[23:04] it will get better on its own.
[23:05] >> You thought hearing voices that were
[23:08] telling you to kill yourself and your
[23:09] children
[23:10] >> It's not logical, of course.
[23:11] >> I understand that.
[23:14] I understand it's not logical to be
[23:16] suicidal and want to die and be
[23:19] terrified you're going to be murdered.
[23:22] >> Right.
[23:22] >> I understand those things don't add up
[23:24] to a normal mind. And that should be
[23:29] a sign to yourself
[23:32] something's not right.
[23:33] >> Yeah.
[23:33] >> You're not in your right mind.
[23:35] >> Yeah.
[23:36] >> But I thought if I can just fake it
[23:39] harder,
[23:41] maybe I can survive it.
[23:43] >> So, here's the question. When you're
[23:45] hearing a voice that says
[23:47] "If you just hold him under water." When
[23:49] these voices show up, can you
[23:53] distinguish that
[23:55] this is this is not normal? Were you
[23:57] able to distinguish this is not normal,
[24:00] or did that feel like it was real?
[24:02] >> It felt extremely real.
[24:04] >> Yeah.
[24:05] >> It felt as real as my husband were to
[24:08] lean over and whisper in my ear right
[24:10] now.
[24:10] It was as real as someone walking up
[24:12] behind me and talking onto one side of
[24:15] my head.
[24:15] >> Yeah.
[24:17] But it's a voice you you don't know. So,
[24:19] it's not like it's your voice telling
[24:21] you to do it. It's another voice.
[24:23] >> Right.
[24:23] >> Yeah.
[24:24] >> It was for me. Yeah.
[24:26] >> For you. So, you finally got help when?
[24:29] >> I wrote my husband a letter
[24:32] when I was about 16 months postpartum.
[24:34] It was three pages, I believe, front and
[24:36] back.
[24:38] And I laid it all out for him in it.
[24:40] Like,
[24:42] "I am not okay.
[24:44] I need help. I am hallucinating. I am
[24:48] extremely suicidal." And that night when
[24:50] we were in separate bedrooms, tucking
[24:52] our kids in, we tuck our kids in and we
[24:53] switch rooms,
[24:55] I texted him and I said, "I need to talk
[24:57] tonight."
[24:58] And he responded, "Okay." Like, I
[25:00] couldn't even tell him in person. I was
[25:01] so scared. I was so nauseous.
[25:04] We go to the bedroom and I shut the
[25:05] door. I walk to my bedside table and I
[25:07] take out this letter that's folded and I
[25:09] throw it at him
[25:11] and I collapse on the bed sobbing. Just
[25:14] all the energy I'd put into faking it
[25:16] all those months just
[25:18] the walls came crumbling down.
[25:20] And I just sobbed harder than I've ever
[25:24] cried in my life. And he opened the
[25:26] letter and started reading it and as he
[25:27] turned the first page, he reached out
[25:30] and he was crying and he said, "It's
[25:31] going to be okay, Brooke. I'm going to
[25:33] protect you. I'm going to get you help."
[25:36] And not being alone
[25:39] Yeah.
[25:41] >> And you were hospitalized for how long?
[25:44] >> I was not hospitalized for 2 more
[25:46] months.
[25:48] My husband worked from home at that
[25:50] point and at that point he babysat me.
[25:54] I was rarely left alone. Like, it wasn't
[25:56] just we were on the same floor in the
[25:57] house. We were in the same room. If he
[25:59] had to work in the office, I was in the
[26:01] office.
[26:02] If the kids needed something, he got up
[26:05] and helped.
[26:07] Um
[26:08] if he removed everything from the house
[26:10] that I was allergic to, anything I could
[26:13] use to harm myself. He asked me very
[26:14] specific questions
[26:17] to protect me.
[26:17] >> So, you were trying to fix it yourself?
[26:20] >> No.
[26:20] >> or were you at this point seeing
[26:22] somebody? When you realized that she
[26:24] needed help and you said, "I'm going to
[26:25] help you."
[26:27] How did you do that?
[26:28] >> So, we did the we took the precautions
[26:30] in the house and her not being left
[26:32] alone. Um but then it was
[26:35] we eventually got an amazing team. So,
[26:37] our midwife was amazing in finding us a
[26:40] good doctor. We had a doctor. We had our
[26:43] a therapist who and this team rallied
[26:45] around. But what was really, really
[26:47] frustrating is when you have someone
[26:48] reach out to you and you're trying to
[26:50] help them. Like, a lot of people would
[26:52] they say, "If I only knew. If I only
[26:55] knew I would have done something." This
[26:56] was my if I only knew moment.
[26:58] And so, we're in this crisis state and
[27:02] we're calling and calling and calling
[27:04] and trying to get help for 3 weeks. We
[27:07] couldn't get in to see a psychologist
[27:10] and
[27:10] trying to get help. Literally leaving
[27:12] voicemail after voicemail after
[27:13] voicemail and no one cared to help.
[27:16] >> And at this point, it was the the doctor
[27:19] that called us back was a referral from
[27:20] to our from our midwife.
[27:22] And he called us back leaving his office
[27:25] for Christmas break.
[27:27] >> Wow.
[27:27] >> He said, "I got your voicemail
[27:31] and it was so important, I'm calling you
[27:32] from my truck. Like,
[27:34] >> Wow.
[27:34] >> I need to get you help today."
[27:35] >> Yeah. Well, that is great. That is great
[27:37] to hear. And I think Thank you for
[27:39] sharing your story. Very brave of you to
[27:41] share your story, especially in a
[27:43] climate where everybody wants to have
[27:45] their own opinions about what somebody
[27:47] else's life and story is.
[27:49] Were you
[27:52] um wary about coming forward and sharing
[27:56] your story?
[27:57] >> Um
[27:58] I was I have been sharing my story for 7
[28:01] years on Deaf Ears.
[28:03] So, I was very grateful for you shining
[28:06] light on this platform and
[28:09] um
[28:10] I think this is the first time I have
[28:13] publicly shared that I wanted to harm my
[28:15] son.
[28:16] >> Because now people are going to see you
[28:18] on the street and it takes a lot of
[28:19] courage to be able to say that.
[28:22] >> Thank you.
[28:23] But
[28:24] >> It takes a lot of courage.
[28:25] >> I mean, right before I was hospitalized,
[28:27] what actually made me become
[28:29] hospitalized is the night before I was
[28:31] up all night and I was sitting in one of
[28:33] my sons' empty bedrooms cuz they'd woken
[28:35] up and come to my room.
[28:37] And I was looking around I was seeing
[28:38] their toys and their toys had all just
[28:40] turned to weapons for me.
[28:43] And I saw this movie play out of this
[28:45] train of thought in my mind of
[28:46] strangling my son and me jumping out the
[28:48] second story window.
[28:50] And when I saw that play out in real
[28:52] life
[28:53] >> With Lindsay Clancy.
[28:54] >> With Lindsay Clancy. I looked at my
[28:56] husband I said this is lady who had the
[28:58] exact same intrusive thoughts as me. And
[29:01] the reason my story ended differently
[29:04] was because who my husband is. That's
[29:06] the only difference.
[29:07] >> Mhm.
[29:09] Trevor.
[29:13] Ayana and her husband Wagner went
[29:15] through a similar experience. What
[29:16] happened to you Ayana?
[29:18] >> So I knew about postpartum depression
[29:20] and postpartum anxiety and I knew just
[29:22] from like having friends who'd walked
[29:23] through it that I might not feel like
[29:24] myself after birth.
[29:26] But after I gave birth I felt euphoric.
[29:29] I felt I didn't need to sleep anymore.
[29:31] Um my C-section incision didn't hurt. Um
[29:34] I felt angry that people had told me to
[29:36] prepare for postpartum cuz I felt like
[29:38] it was the easiest thing that I'd ever
[29:40] been through. Um this lasted
[29:43] very very shortly. Um about 5 days
[29:45] postpartum I started to experience
[29:47] really violent mood swings where I was
[29:49] going up and down and up and
[29:50] >> you were just manic and not sleeping and
[29:53] thinking you don't need to sleep.
[29:54] >> Yeah.
[29:54] >> Yeah. And then?
[29:55] >> Yeah. Um I started to experience mood
[29:58] swings. My husband noticed that
[30:00] something was off. My parents noticed
[30:02] that something was off. Um I just wasn't
[30:04] I was very irritable. I just wasn't
[30:06] acting like myself. Um but I'd never
[30:09] been postpartum before. Even I could
[30:11] feel like this isn't what I expected it
[30:13] to be but maybe it's just hormones.
[30:16] I became very paranoid very suddenly
[30:18] that my husband wasn't safe for my baby,
[30:21] that my mom wasn't safe for my baby,
[30:23] that only I could protect my baby, feed
[30:25] her, change her, all of that. Um and at
[30:27] this point this was 8 days post 7 or 8
[30:29] days postpartum my husband called my
[30:31] psychiatrist and told her, "Hey, I think
[30:33] something's really wrong." And she told
[30:34] him, "If she doesn't improve she might
[30:36] need to be hospitalized. You know, I'm
[30:38] preparing you for the possibility." This
[30:40] was the summer of 2020. So this is kind
[30:42] of the peak of the pandemic. My baby was
[30:45] born early, so I was very worried about
[30:46] her health. So it just
[30:48] would not ideal for me to be in a
[30:49] hospital, but my psychiatrist was kind
[30:51] of adamant that it might need to happen
[30:53] if the paranoia built.
[30:55] Um
[30:56] >> And then you started hearing voices.
[30:58] >> Yeah.
[30:59] Um so then I started to hear what I
[31:01] called the voice of God. Um I told my
[31:04] husband that I was going to be a famous
[31:05] author, that my daughter was the second
[31:07] coming of Jesus.
[31:08] >> Your daughter Did you say your daughter
[31:09] was the second coming of Jesus?
[31:10] >> Oh, yeah.
[31:11] >> That's what the voice told you?
[31:12] >> Yes, yes. So I'm hearing all of these
[31:13] things, that I'm a special prophet. And
[31:15] all of the things that I was hearing
[31:16] were almost like
[31:18] >> So what Brooke described, is it Was it a
[31:19] man's voice?
[31:21] >> It was It's so hard for me to explain
[31:22] it. It It felt kind of like
[31:25] when I used to pray and want God to
[31:27] speak to me, what I'd always wanted to
[31:29] hear.
[31:29] >> Yeah.
[31:30] >> So it almost felt like it was coming
[31:31] from within me.
[31:32] >> Yeah.
[31:32] >> Um
[31:34] But yeah.
[31:34] >> And it told you you were a prophet, a
[31:36] special prophet, and your your child was
[31:38] the second coming of Jesus.
[31:39] >> Yes.
[31:40] >> Okay. And you believed that.
[31:42] >> Oh, I was ecstatic. I was over the moon.
[31:44] I was upset that he did not seem as
[31:46] excited as I was when I woke him up to
[31:48] tell him this. Obviously, he's thinking,
[31:49] "What is going on?"
[31:51] Uh but
[31:52] >> What did you think when she told you
[31:53] that,
[31:54] Wagner?
[31:55] >> Well, I think the hard part about all
[31:58] this was it when you're in that
[32:01] postpartum period, you don't really know
[32:03] what to expect, especially with your
[32:04] first child. It's like
[32:06] all of
[32:07] you know, the mood swings or what have
[32:09] you. Like she was maybe talking a little
[32:11] bit faster, talking a little bit more,
[32:12] all this stuff. And so like it feels
[32:14] unusual, but it doesn't necessarily feel
[32:16] like maybe this is not something that I
[32:19] shouldn't expect.
[32:19] >> feel dangerous.
[32:20] >> Right.
[32:21] >> Yeah.
[32:21] >> Um
[32:22] >> And that's why we're having this podcast
[32:24] because we're going to talk to a doctor
[32:26] later who says those are all the pink
[32:29] flags
[32:30] before you get to the red flag. So all
[32:33] of you you, Trevor, were seeing the pink
[32:35] flags. You were seeing the pink flags.
[32:38] You were experiencing the pink flags but
[32:40] didn't know it was a pink flag. So, you
[32:42] were You know something's off. And
[32:44] that's what the pink flag is, knowing
[32:46] something is off, right?
[32:47] >> Yeah, exactly. And so,
[32:49] when the delusion started coming out
[32:51] like, you know, I think she was talking
[32:53] about rewriting the Bible and um
[32:55] just just these things of like hearing
[32:58] the voice of God and all these different
[32:59] things. Um
[33:02] that was when I knew like something is
[33:04] seriously wrong.
[33:05] Uh and so, I kind of took the approach
[33:07] of I I think very similar to like maybe
[33:09] what Trevor
[33:11] um experienced but maybe like on an
[33:12] accelerated timeline. Like I was like
[33:14] just kind of watching her nonstop.
[33:16] Um but it got to that point uh
[33:19] like she mentioned maybe 7-8 days in
[33:22] where um we just reached a breaking
[33:24] point. I had to call the psychiatrist.
[33:26] >> Did you at any point feel that you could
[33:28] harm your baby?
[33:30] >> I was very worried that other people
[33:32] were going to harm her. So, I was ready
[33:34] to hurt or, you know, try to hurt anyone
[33:37] who
[33:38] even mentioned my baby. So, my delusions
[33:41] and my mind frame was centered around
[33:42] her being so special because she was
[33:44] Jesus that the world was going to try to
[33:45] kill her. So, that's I mean, but I feel
[33:48] lucky because you don't have control
[33:50] over how postpartum psychosis manifests,
[33:52] you know? So, lucky. I mean, it's still
[33:54] not It's not a great situation to be in
[33:55] but I didn't have delusions about
[33:57] harming her but I could have, you know?
[33:58] And I'm very aware that my story could
[34:00] have ended differently.
[34:01] >> What are your thoughts on the Lindsay
[34:03] Clancy case?
[34:04] >> I think
[34:07] I think that it's important to
[34:10] hold space and mourn and acknowledge
[34:13] like this incredible
[34:15] loss of life, this this unthinkable
[34:17] thing that happened, while also looking
[34:19] at a mother who, you know, we have
[34:21] documented evidence tried to get help,
[34:24] raised the red flag that something
[34:26] wasn't right. Um
[34:28] so, I think that I think that it's
[34:30] really hard especially to be online
[34:31] right now cuz it's like, you know,
[34:33] there's no room for nuance or at all
[34:35] ever. But um I because I feel like
[34:39] because I've been through postpartum
[34:40] psychosis and because I lost control
[34:42] over my thoughts and my actions, I have
[34:45] more empathy I think than maybe the
[34:47] average person would.
[34:48] >> Did you have to be hospitalized?
[34:49] >> I did, yes.
[34:49] >> Yes, for how long?
[34:50] >> 17 days.
[34:51] >> 17 days.
[34:53] And after 17 days you're given
[34:55] medication and you're better?
[34:57] >> Well, I wasn't delusional anymore.
[34:59] So I mean yes, as far as the psychosis
[35:01] went the symptoms the symptoms stopped
[35:03] about, you know, 14 days into my
[35:06] hospitalization.
[35:07] >> Yeah.
[35:07] >> Um I struggled so much about being away
[35:10] from my daughter for that time because I
[35:11] wasn't allowed visitors. I wasn't
[35:12] allowed
[35:14] anything, you know, as far as I could
[35:15] tell.
[35:15] >> 17 days you're better?
[35:17] >> Yeah, well yeah, well enough to go home,
[35:18] yeah.
[35:18] >> Well, enough to go home. Well, to help
[35:20] us understand
[35:23] what postpartum psychosis is, we invited
[35:26] top experts in their fields to be here.
[35:29] Dr. Burnstoff is a reproductive
[35:32] psychiatrist and the CEO, co-founder and
[35:35] medical director of the Motherhood
[35:37] Center in New York City, which treats
[35:39] pregnant and new moms and we welcome you
[35:42] here to this conversation. So let's
[35:44] start with the basics. I think people
[35:46] are confused
[35:48] by the difference between postpartum
[35:50] depression and postpartum psychosis.
[35:53] What what is the difference?
[35:55] >> Well, first thank you for having this
[35:57] conversation on the national stage and
[36:00] for your stories. I really feel for you
[36:02] and know how hard it is to get help.
[36:05] The difference is postpartum depression
[36:08] is what we know as depression. It's
[36:10] happening in the postpartum and can
[36:11] happen during pregnancy.
[36:13] You're not interested in things you used
[36:15] to be, low mood, you may be exhausted,
[36:18] not motivated, not really wanting you're
[36:21] barely pushing yourself out of bed to
[36:23] get things done, but you can look quite
[36:24] fine.
[36:25] And in the worst cases you can feel
[36:27] suicidal.
[36:29] Okay?
[36:30] Postpartum psychosis is completely
[36:33] different.
[36:34] >> Does Okay, so so before you finish that
[36:37] answer, does postpartum depression lead
[36:40] to postpartum psychosis?
[36:43] >> It can.
[36:43] >> It can.
[36:44] >> It can. You can have psychotic thinking
[36:47] within a depression.
[36:48] >> Can you have psychotic Can you have
[36:50] postpartum psychosis without ever being
[36:53] depressed?
[36:55] >> You can. You will also have mood
[36:57] symptoms at some point, kind of like you
[37:00] described, Iona, right? That you start
[37:02] with the psychotic symptoms, and then we
[37:05] haven't heard your whole story, kind of
[37:07] how things end up.
[37:09] But postpartum psychosis is a medical
[37:13] emergency. It is a break with reality
[37:16] that requires almost invariably
[37:19] hospitalization.
[37:20] >> Okay. I think that's really important
[37:22] for everybody who's ticking and talking
[37:25] to get the word out that it is a medical
[37:29] emergency.
[37:32] >> And when you Googled 9 years ago, it it
[37:36] it didn't note that. That's what you're
[37:38] saying.
[37:38] >> Yeah, it did not. Had it noted that,
[37:42] I think that would have changed how my
[37:46] story went. I don't think I would have
[37:47] been another year before I got help.
[37:50] >> Yeah. Okay, so and how do you know
[37:54] whether it you are in psychosis or
[37:56] whether it's just depression?
[37:58] >> Well, as described, psychosis can be
[38:01] paranoia, hearing things, seeing things
[38:05] that aren't there, but you believe them.
[38:07] There's a delusional quality to it,
[38:09] right? A fixed false belief that what
[38:12] you are seeing or hearing is absolutely
[38:15] true. It wouldn't have mattered if you
[38:17] asked your husband if he saw it. And I
[38:19] love how you said that, you were
[38:20] gaslighting yourself.
[38:22] I mean,
[38:23] so well said and it's really true that
[38:26] you so unshakably believe what you are
[38:30] seeing, hearing, and feeling is true.
[38:33] Nobody else may and that's why people
[38:35] don't share. You seem to somewhat
[38:37] incredulous as you were hearing she
[38:39] didn't tell her husband. That's not
[38:41] uncommon. People feel crazy. They don't
[38:45] want to be labeled that way. They don't
[38:47] want their kids taken away should they
[38:49] tell a medical professional, right? We
[38:51] have the responsibility to you know call
[38:54] child protective services if we think
[38:56] there's harm that could come to a baby.
[38:58] >> Not think, but
[38:59] you know, I always wondered
[39:01] if someone tells you that I'm thinking
[39:03] of harming my children, you should
[39:05] believe that.
[39:07] >> 100%. 1 billion percent.
[39:10] >> Okay, so if someone says I'm thinking of
[39:11] harming my children and they're willing
[39:13] to admit that they're thinking of
[39:14] harming their children, shouldn't their
[39:16] children be taken away?
[39:17] >> I wouldn't say that. I would say it is
[39:20] there you've got your emergency right in
[39:22] front of you. You need to get to the
[39:24] hospital. You do need separation. I mean
[39:26] Trevor, you did all the right things.
[39:28] I'm just sorry you had to make a home
[39:29] hospital.
[39:30] >> Yeah.
[39:31] >> Right? You did the things we say. It is
[39:33] protocol to say don't be alone with a
[39:36] baby. Don't be alone yourself.
[39:38] >> So you should be immediately separated
[39:40] from your children.
[39:40] >> Correct. Correct, but not taken away. I
[39:42] don't scare anyone with that. This
[39:44] right?
[39:45] >> You need treatment and you often need
[39:47] hospitalization for your safety and for
[39:50] your baby's safety.
[39:52] >> Okay. You need treatment.
[39:54] >> Treatment. And hospitalization.
[39:56] >> Okay. And so
[39:58] you're
[39:58] we talked about the pink flags.
[40:00] >> Yeah.
[40:00] >> So the pink flags are
[40:03] >> yeah. Well, this is red.
[40:04] >> Yeah.
[40:05] >> This is
[40:06] >> By the time you're in psychosis, you're
[40:07] in red.
[40:08] >> You're in red, right? When people are
[40:10] acting out of character, when they start
[40:12] to not be behaving like themselves,
[40:15] yeah. When you a little off and you're
[40:17] thinking to yourself, "Huh, that doesn't
[40:19] seem right." That those are pink flags
[40:22] and I know we're going to hear more
[40:23] about that, but you were discussing a
[40:26] red flag. When someone
[40:28] can say, "I am worried. I am going to
[40:31] hurt my child or I could." Do not pass
[40:34] go, directly to the emergency room. Or
[40:36] if you hear paranoia, I had a patient
[40:38] once, I heard on the phone 7 days after
[40:41] she delivered, I'd seen her in the
[40:42] hospital doing great. Her husband called
[40:45] me and I could hear in the background,
[40:47] she was in the background and she said,
[40:48] "Who is that woman you are on the phone
[40:51] with? You're having an affair with her."
[40:53] And I said,
[40:54] "We have an emergency on our hands. You
[40:57] need to Can I meet you at the hospital?
[40:59] Mhm. Can you get in a taxi? Do you want
[41:01] me to call an ambulance? Where are you?"
[41:03] That was it. She was done. She was going
[41:06] to be hospitalized for that emergency
[41:09] postpartum psychosis.
[41:10] >> Okay, I want to show you this uh Lindsay
[41:13] Clancy's attorney Kevin Reddington gave
[41:16] an interview this week on Good Morning
[41:17] America. Take a quick look at what he
[41:19] said.
[41:20] >> A lot of the interplay between the
[41:23] medications, between the selective
[41:25] serotonin reuptake inhibitors, the SSRI
[41:27] drugs,
[41:28] in combination with that, it's it's
[41:30] horrific what what these people are
[41:32] dealing with.
[41:33] >> And and and what do you say to those
[41:34] critics who say this is a
[41:35] rationalization? What what we're talking
[41:37] about here is just plain evil.
[41:39] >> Oh, please. It's not It's not evil.
[41:41] These people don't understand that they
[41:43] they they don't know what she went
[41:45] through. They didn't see her text
[41:46] messages. They didn't see her journal.
[41:48] They didn't see the notes that she
[41:49] wrote. They didn't see the text she sent
[41:51] her mother on October saying, "Mommy,
[41:53] can you please come to here? I I I am
[41:55] sick. Something's wrong." And it was a
[41:57] result of the medications. They don't
[41:58] know about the number of times that she
[42:00] reached out. She went to the woman and
[42:01] infant. She went to the suicide
[42:03] hotlines. She reached out to everybody
[42:05] and anybody that would listen to her and
[42:07] kept saying, "I am not good. I am not
[42:09] well." And it was was
[42:12] >> So, Dr. Brendel,
[42:13] uh what about
[42:16] for depression?
[42:18] >> They're wonderful medications.
[42:20] >> us what that is.
[42:21] >> Okay, selective serotonin reuptake
[42:23] inhibitors. Those are medications like
[42:25] Prozac or Zoloft or Lexapro. Right?
[42:28] They're the most very commonly used.
[42:30] >> Okay. For postpartum depression,
[42:33] >> Sure.
[42:34] >> what kind of impact do the SSRI drugs
[42:37] then have on psychosis? So, you're in
[42:39] depression, you're
[42:40] >> Yes.
[42:42] Yes.
[42:42] >> and what happens?
[42:44] >> So, these medications in a certain
[42:46] population that is predisposed
[42:48] biologically, if they are given this
[42:51] medication, can flip into mania.
[42:55] It is a known
[42:56] side effect {slash} something that can
[42:59] happen. If someone is not responding to
[43:01] a medication like this, they have kind
[43:03] of an agitated, sometimes euphoric,
[43:06] experience or dysphoric where they don't
[43:08] feel good. You think to yourself, "Huh,
[43:11] that's not working. What's going on?"
[43:13] They're having an unusual reaction to
[43:15] this.
[43:15] >> But, isn't it the case that I I I've
[43:17] known
[43:18] several people who've suffered from
[43:20] mania. And that the case with mania is
[43:24] you're feeling so good, you're feeling
[43:25] so high, you're cleaning the you can
[43:27] stay up all night, you can party, you
[43:29] can do all those things. You don't know
[43:31] you're manic.
[43:32] >> No. You lose insight.
[43:33] >> to a manic person who realized they were
[43:35] manic.
[43:36] >> Nope. Many people really enjoy the
[43:38] state. Yeah. Right? It can also be quite
[43:40] irritable or it can be euphoric. Yeah.
[43:42] But, you have no insight. You don't know
[43:45] what's happening. And this medication
[43:47] can trip people into What it does is it
[43:49] exposes a previously un-earthed bipolar
[43:53] disorder.
[43:54] >> And what happens if you are on an SSRI
[43:58] drug and now you are also psychotic? The
[44:02] SSRI drugs impact psychosis how?
[44:07] >> Well, when you're you can also become
[44:09] psychotic. So, if you think the
[44:12] medication is working, you might
[44:13] increase the dose. You may not recognize
[44:16] that it's not working. Oh, it doesn't
[44:17] seem to be helping with the depression
[44:18] or the anxiety. I'm going to increase
[44:20] the dose. The exact wrong thing to do.
[44:23] You actually need to bring another
[44:25] medications and get someone off that
[44:27] medication that's stimulating,
[44:29] activating them into a state of
[44:31] bipolarity.
[44:32] >> So, are you saying SSRI drugs stimulate
[44:35] or activate psychosis?
[44:37] >> They can.
[44:38] >> They can. Okay.
[44:40] Dr. Camilla Phillips is an obstetrician
[44:43] and gynecologist. So, what happens in
[44:46] the brains of of moms with this
[44:50] or do we call it a disorder or is it a
[44:52] mental illness? What do we call it?
[44:54] >> Well, it's a spectrum really, right? And
[44:56] I think
[44:57] >> I
[44:57] >> the quick answer is we don't know.
[44:59] >> Okay.
[44:59] >> And that's the problem. We don't have
[45:01] enough funding and research to really
[45:03] understand what goes on in the
[45:05] postpartum. What the data suggests
[45:07] though is that it is multifactorial.
[45:10] When you think about the significant,
[45:13] drastic changes that the postpartum
[45:16] brain experiences, a decrease in
[45:18] progesterone, a decrease in estrogen, if
[45:21] you know anyone who's experienced
[45:23] puberty or menopause, you know that the
[45:26] human brain is hormonal.
[45:28] >> Yeah.
[45:29] >> Those are profound shifts. We also have
[45:32] to consider things we don't think about
[45:34] and that's what you mentioned, the
[45:35] serotonin, the dopamine, the
[45:38] norepinephrine. These are the signals
[45:41] that your brain sends to other parts of
[45:43] your brain that act with emotion and
[45:45] rationalization and understanding of
[45:48] your behavior. We know very little about
[45:50] that. There is data that shows that the
[45:53] postpartum brain for someone who has
[45:56] depression versus psychosis, looks very
[46:00] different than the brain of a postpartum
[46:02] woman who doesn't. So, there are some
[46:04] structural components there that are
[46:06] likely really important and genetics,
[46:10] right? We have millions of women who
[46:13] deliver every year. Only about 10 to 15%
[46:17] go on to have postpartum depression and
[46:19] even fewer psychosis. So, there is
[46:21] probably a genetic component in the
[46:24] brain that when you combine new baby
[46:27] hormones, sleep deprivation, really tips
[46:30] them over and exposes their
[46:32] vulnerability to psychosis.
[46:35] >> Yeah, I I heard that the statistic for
[46:38] uh psychosis is
[46:41] uh about 8,000 women a year.
[46:42] >> 1 to 2,000.
[46:44] >> But, that's still a lot of women.
[46:46] >> 8,000 a year
[46:47] new moms.
[46:48] >> Significant.
[46:49] >> Yes.
[46:49] >> It's really significant and when we see
[46:51] the repercussions of what that psychosis
[46:53] can lead to when it comes to children,
[46:57] parenting, family relationships, jobs.
[46:59] This is a This is a medical emergency.
[47:02] >> Well, it was uh presented in court that
[47:04] the day Lindsay killed her children,
[47:07] she took her daughter to the
[47:09] pediatrician and she played in the snow
[47:11] with her kids and she called CVS about a
[47:14] medication and ordered take out for
[47:17] dinner. Everyone who interacted with her
[47:20] that day said that she appeared normal.
[47:24] And uh Dr. Hader is a perinatal
[47:28] psychiatrist and I think people really
[47:31] struggle with this idea that
[47:34] they can't wrap their brains around how
[47:37] can someone appear to be functioning so
[47:41] well as these women have described, but
[47:43] then have those dark thoughts. I think
[47:45] that's what we don't understand.
[47:47] >> Yeah. It's a great question. Thank you
[47:49] for having me. So, it's interesting
[47:51] speaking very broadly about postpartum
[47:53] psychosis. It in fact it it's a spectrum
[47:56] and someone with postpartum psychosis
[47:59] does not have to be continuously
[48:01] psychotic in order to have postpartum
[48:03] psychosis.
[48:04] >> Okay, I think it's really important. Dr.
[48:05] Kemi, you just said that and you just
[48:07] said that. I think it's important for
[48:08] everybody who's weighing in on this to
[48:11] understand many things in life are on
[48:14] the spectrum.
[48:15] And the fact that both of you have said
[48:17] it and I've read it many to other places
[48:19] that it's a spectrum. Not every one
[48:22] woman's case is not like another woman's
[48:24] case is not like a another woman's case.
[48:26] So we we need to look at it in a more
[48:28] broad view.
[48:29] >> And I'm so glad you highlighted that
[48:31] Oprah because in fact well one can be
[48:35] one can be experiencing postpartum
[48:37] psychosis and still be highly
[48:39] functional. She she can be doing pick
[48:41] up, drop off, getting on through her
[48:43] day, making chocolate chip muffins with
[48:45] her toddler and have organized
[48:47] functional thoughts and behaviors at
[48:50] times and still fit within the spectrum.
[48:53] And you know, having organized
[48:55] >> hear the voices and then go make lunch.
[48:57] >> Absolutely or during lunch or maybe the
[49:00] voices are telling her not to tell
[49:01] anyone, right? Maybe that's why she
[49:03] hasn't spoken up and there's also the
[49:04] component of shame and guilt
[49:06] and thank you for sharing that. So I I
[49:09] think it's really important to emphasize
[49:11] it is it is on a spectrum. And so when I
[49:14] had talked about the pink flags, I I'm
[49:16] so glad that a lot of people are talking
[49:18] about it because I originally wrote it
[49:19] in my op-ed in Time magazine and it took
[49:21] off and I really wrote that from a
[49:24] strong point of education where I wanted
[49:27] to teach others that pink flags still is
[49:30] on the spectrum of postpartum psychosis.
[49:33] Pink flags is where lives can be saved
[49:36] and I really refer to them as quieter
[49:38] signs and symptoms postpartum psychosis
[49:41] that often go missed. And you know, this
[49:44] is the illness that kind of happens in
[49:46] plain sight. So it's so critical to talk
[49:48] about the subtle signs and symptoms that
[49:51] develop like you two had mentioned, you
[49:53] know, early onset paranoia, maybe some
[49:55] early onset hypomania, the mood is
[49:57] changing, um especially in the context
[50:01] of of disrupted sleep and sudden
[50:03] interrupted sleep after having a baby.
[50:05] >> I read that I I I read your article and
[50:07] this is a thing. I read that but I'm
[50:09] thinking
[50:10] isn't every new mother having
[50:12] interrupted sleep
[50:13] >> Yeah.
[50:14] >> or not getting enough sleep? So, how can
[50:16] that be a sign when everybody is just
[50:18] so many people, I won't say everybody
[50:20] but a lot of women who don't have help
[50:22] and don't have support and even those
[50:23] who do
[50:25] the sleep deprivation is just like
[50:27] >> Yeah.
[50:28] >> top of the list. You want to you want to
[50:29] >> I was just going to say, I don't think
[50:31] people realize how much insomnia and
[50:33] sleep deprivation plays into this. Um
[50:37] sleep is actually a human right and we
[50:39] forget that. And when you're sleep
[50:41] deprived, that is a form of torture.
[50:43] >> Right.
[50:44] >> Your brain literally cannot process,
[50:47] make decisions, have any form of
[50:50] executive functioning. And so, when you
[50:52] are having a changing hormonal brain,
[50:55] your body is aching, you're charged with
[50:57] taking care of this newborn and then you
[50:59] inject um insomnia with sleep
[51:02] deprivation, it literally becomes a form
[51:05] of torture. And so, we tell people, I do
[51:07] it all the time, sleep when the baby
[51:10] sleeps, sleep when the baby sleeps. But
[51:11] what happens is you go clean the kitchen
[51:14] cuz you have to. You have to feed
[51:16] yourself and dare you want to take a
[51:18] shower and so it compounds itself.
[51:21] Within that first 24 hours, if you're
[51:22] not used to sleep deprivation, you can
[51:25] start having disordered thinking. By 3
[51:28] days
[51:29] hallucinations, delusions can easily set
[51:33] in. So, we joke, oh she's tired, she's a
[51:35] new mom. This is serious.
[51:37] >> Hallucinations and and once that sets in
[51:40] does that lead to psychosis?
[51:42] >> It's not going to happen in the person
[51:45] who isn't predisposed.
[51:47] Right, you're just going to be a mess if
[51:50] 3 days in you haven't slept. If you are
[51:53] somebody who has a history of bipolar
[51:55] disorder or this is going to be the
[51:57] break where you are going to become
[51:59] bipolar, we didn't know it, you're going
[52:02] to have a different response. And I and
[52:04] I want to make another really important
[52:06] point, I think. Postpartum psychosis,
[52:08] the waxing and waning has really
[52:10] fascinated people and and it makes you
[52:12] feel like, is this believable? It is
[52:14] different than schizophrenics or
[52:17] schizoaffective disorder, primary
[52:19] psychotic disorders. We don't think of
[52:22] postpartum psychosis like that. It's the
[52:24] same word, but it's a different
[52:26] presentation.
[52:28] These moms are not walking around
[52:30] talking to themselves, hallucinating,
[52:33] stopping you on the street, you know,
[52:35] that's not what we're seeing. That's a
[52:36] chronic illness. This is a temporary,
[52:40] treatable, and fully recoverable
[52:43] illness.
[52:44] That's postpartum psychosis. It's It's
[52:46] different.
[52:47] >> And it's happening because of the
[52:50] hormonal imbalance?
[52:51] >> because of biological predisposition,
[52:53] and because of the hormonal change.
[52:55] Different people are sensitive. All
[52:57] combined.
[52:58] >> I want to bring in our audience now.
[52:59] Jocelyn is here with her daughter,
[53:01] Britney. And I hear the two of you also
[53:03] don't agree about this case.
[53:06] Mother and daughter, yes.
[53:07] >> Hi, Oprah.
[53:08] >> Hi.
[53:08] >> Thank you so much. I'm so happy you're
[53:10] bringing up this conversation.
[53:12] Um, yes, I'm you know, my daughter,
[53:13] Britney, and we have two different
[53:15] thoughts on this um
[53:17] topic. Um, me having gone through
[53:21] postpartum depression when I had her,
[53:23] kind of like I feel for Lindsay and what
[53:26] she's going through.
[53:27] >> Did you have a word for it when you were
[53:29] going through it with her? Did you know
[53:30] what it was?
[53:31] >> Well, no. Well, back then postpartum
[53:33] depression wasn't a thing, so going to a
[53:36] doctor was like literally, you're
[53:37] depressed, you'll be fine. Um, you'll
[53:39] get over it.
[53:41] Um, but you know your body and I knew
[53:42] something was totally wrong with me. Um,
[53:45] they didn't want to get up, didn't want
[53:47] to eat, couldn't stop crying. And the
[53:49] saddest thing is like I didn't want to
[53:51] take care of my baby. I mean, I'm so
[53:53] glad that mine wasn't as bad as some of
[53:56] these other mothers.
[53:57] >> went into psychosis?
[53:58] >> Uh, no. Not where I heard voices, but I
[54:02] just didn't the bonding with my
[54:04] daughter, it was just not there. Like I
[54:06] didn't even want to hold her or you
[54:08] know, never mind like feed her or
[54:10] anything like that.
[54:11] >> So, you all are in differing about the
[54:14] case.
[54:15] >> We are.
[54:16] >> Yeah.
[54:16] >> Yeah, we have opposing views.
[54:18] >> We do, and I think that you know, I said
[54:19] to her, I think since she hasn't gone
[54:20] through it, she's not a mother, so she
[54:22] doesn't know how it it feels to have a
[54:25] child.
[54:26] >> And you disagree.
[54:27] >> I disagree. I am I feel like I'm not
[54:29] with the majority right now. I do
[54:31] believe she's a murderer. Um,
[54:34] I'm an
[54:35] >> you've heard today, you still
[54:36] >> I'm an advocate for mental health.
[54:37] >> Yeah.
[54:38] >> It's just unfortunate like
[54:40] and she's so quick to say it. She's
[54:41] like, you've never had a baby, you don't
[54:43] understand what it's like to go through
[54:45] all the hormonal shifts,
[54:47] but I just feel as though
[54:49] these were not instant deaths. They
[54:51] weren't gunshots to the head. She was
[54:54] there strangling her kids
[54:57] three times.
[54:58] >> Mhm.
[54:59] >> You're telling me like even after the
[55:00] first time she couldn't snap out of it.
[55:02] She you're watching the life leave your
[55:04] kids eyes, you know?
[55:06] So,
[55:07] I know. I hear everybody's opinions, and
[55:09] God bless mothers, but at the same
[55:12] I just don't understand how we can
[55:14] empathize with somebody that
[55:17] they weren't strangers. They were her
[55:18] kids, and she was able to
[55:22] grab those exercise bands. That that
[55:24] took a lot of effort, and it's it breaks
[55:27] my heart
[55:29] that these young kids gone through that,
[55:31] but
[55:33] it's
[55:34] I'm grateful that this conversation is
[55:36] happening because I do believe like
[55:37] woman
[55:39] um
[55:40] they are on the back burner when it
[55:42] comes to mental health. If this was a
[55:43] man like there would be like a law the
[55:46] next day or something going on but
[55:48] >> There would have been research.
[55:50] It would have been funded.
[55:51] >> Something right away. But it's just I
[55:54] just feel like with her it's becoming
[55:56] she's becoming a mascot for
[56:00] just I feel like so many mothers
[56:02] empathize with her so much that they
[56:04] want to put her out there, make her a
[56:06] mascot and
[56:08] they're turning something so negative
[56:09] into a movement.
[56:11] >> Okay. I hear that. So y'all will
[56:13] continue you all will not be agreeing no
[56:15] time soon.
[56:16] No we not. Thank you for being here. So
[56:19] so Alicia is in the audience. Where do
[56:21] you stand Alicia? Alicia?
[56:23] >> Um so I do believe that she had was
[56:27] going through mental health and I'm and
[56:29] I'm sorry for all the women that that
[56:30] happened to. But I feel as though that
[56:34] just because you have a reason kind of
[56:36] doesn't give you an excuse. Um yes,
[56:39] there needs to be more funding. Yes, you
[56:41] know, like this is a real thing. But at
[56:45] the time when she was reaching out for
[56:46] help, not the time when she was in
[56:48] psychosis killing her children, sh- you
[56:51] didn't get the help. She was in enough
[56:53] state of mind where she knew that she
[56:55] needed help, why didn't she just remove
[56:57] herself?
[56:58] >> Yeah.
[56:59] >> You she had a husband living there. She
[57:01] could have left the house, act like she
[57:03] was going to the store and came back
[57:06] called, "Hey, I can't come back home
[57:08] because this is how I'm feeling." And I
[57:10] feel like
[57:11] sometimes that's a hard choice for
[57:13] someone to make, you know, but
[57:15] you can't just like now that it's got to
[57:18] psychosis, now we have to give her an
[57:20] excuse for murder and that's where I
[57:22] stand with that.
[57:23] >> Yeah.
[57:24] So I think one of the lessons from Thank
[57:25] you for sharing that Alicia. One of the
[57:27] lessons from this conversation, if you
[57:30] are a mother or know of a mother or at
[57:34] some point in your life are going to
[57:35] encounter this experience is to know the
[57:40] moment you start having those thoughts,
[57:42] you are in trouble.
[57:45] You are in trouble. That you that you
[57:47] are in a state of emergency and need to
[57:49] get help. And anybody who hears your
[57:52] friend, your mother, your sister say,
[57:55] "I'm having these thoughts." You then
[57:58] that is the red flag that is gone from
[58:02] pink to red. You then need to take
[58:04] action. So, if you know, her her husband
[58:07] who like was like you was like you
[58:10] didn't know this at all when he heard
[58:12] her say, "I want to harm the children."
[58:15] That was the moment to do something. Is
[58:17] that Is Am I accurate here?
[58:19] >> Yeah, I I also want to say it's it's not
[58:21] acknowledging the pressure on women
[58:24] though, right? When you're not well to
[58:27] ask for that help or when you believe
[58:30] that you're supposed to do it all and
[58:32] you're carrying the mother load, society
[58:35] expects you to be perfect. So, what are
[58:38] we supposed to do? It's a very
[58:40] confounding position. This bliss myth of
[58:43] what it is to be a mother is so
[58:45] societally ingrained that it is very
[58:49] hard to come forward. And I don't think
[58:51] we can ignore that in this discussion.
[58:54] >> Yeah. Michelle Oberman wrote an opinion
[58:57] piece in the New York Times titled I
[58:59] study women who killed their children.
[59:01] Lindsay Clancy deserves mercy. Michelle
[59:03] is a professor at Santa Clara University
[59:05] School of Law and the author of When
[59:08] Mothers Kill: Interviews from Prison.
[59:10] Michelle, why do you believe Lindsay
[59:13] should be acquitted by reason of
[59:15] insanity and can you break down what
[59:17] that means for us?
[59:19] >> Yeah. So, I'm going to start with the
[59:22] way in which we judge insanity, which
[59:25] even though we're in 2026, dates back to
[59:28] 1843.
[59:31] Our standard for insanity, the way that
[59:33] we drew it up in 1843,
[59:35] is could she know the difference between
[59:37] right and wrong?
[59:40] And the like just to set the stage when
[59:42] a criminal would come in to be tried in
[59:44] 1843 and there was a question about
[59:47] whether or not they understood the
[59:48] difference between right and wrong, you
[59:50] would bring an expert into the court and
[59:51] they would take a measurement of the
[59:53] cranium. And that's how you could know.
[59:55] They would apply on well the the size of
[59:57] the brain would indicate that this
[59:59] person is criminologic in their intent.
[1:00:01] So that's our legal standard. Around 60
[1:00:05] years ago, Massachusetts,
[1:00:07] one of literally less than a handful of
[1:00:09] states in the country, modernized its
[1:00:12] insanity defense to include could she
[1:00:14] control her behavior. So does she know
[1:00:16] right or wrong and could she control her
[1:00:19] behavior? And I I mean, thank you so
[1:00:21] much to both of you for telling your
[1:00:23] stories cuz I think that answers the
[1:00:25] question of why this insanity test
[1:00:28] doesn't really map on to postpartum
[1:00:30] psychosis. I mean,
[1:00:32] clearly you both knew the difference
[1:00:35] between right and wrong and there were
[1:00:37] moments at which you could control your
[1:00:38] behavior and then moments at which you
[1:00:41] really couldn't and the intrusiveness of
[1:00:44] the voice made it unbelievably difficult
[1:00:48] to control your emotions. And when we
[1:00:50] put somebody like Lindsay Clancy under
[1:00:53] that legal test, we end up with the
[1:00:56] debate that we're having right now in
[1:00:58] social media, throughout the country,
[1:01:01] and indeed throughout the world. Like,
[1:01:03] did she know right and wrong? Did she
[1:01:05] have the ability to control her
[1:01:06] behavior? Well, she took the child to a
[1:01:08] pediatrician's appointment. They They
[1:01:10] They made snow angels. And
[1:01:13] honestly, like the reason why I feel
[1:01:16] like this should be a not guilty for
[1:01:17] reasons of insanity is that I think
[1:01:19] anybody looking at the case has a really
[1:01:21] hard time thinking that she was anything
[1:01:24] but really, really mentally ill.
[1:01:27] And that raises the question of well,
[1:01:29] what's the purpose of punishment?
[1:01:33] >> When you believe that because 11 of the
[1:01:34] 12 jurors reportedly were in favor, 11
[1:01:38] of the 12 reportedly were in favor of a
[1:01:40] not guilty by reason of insanity
[1:01:43] verdict, that this is a real watershed
[1:01:45] moment. Why do you think so?
[1:01:47] >> So, I'm old enough that I actually have
[1:01:50] been studying these cases almost as long
[1:01:52] as you've been interested in them and
[1:01:55] in fact I was on your show talking about
[1:01:58] Andrea Yates way back when.
[1:01:59] >> Mhm.
[1:02:00] >> Um and the difference between that
[1:02:03] moment and now is the watershed moment
[1:02:05] because
[1:02:07] while in both cases it's so hard to look
[1:02:10] away from the dead babies,
[1:02:14] the difference between Andrea Yates
[1:02:16] coverage, which was a just like make us
[1:02:18] not look at this, we can't look at this
[1:02:20] anymore,
[1:02:22] and this moment where there is an
[1:02:25] outpouring of conversation around mental
[1:02:27] health and mental illness,
[1:02:30] that is the watershed moment. And for
[1:02:32] those of us that have spent time, you
[1:02:34] know, the stay-at-home jurors, if you
[1:02:36] will, watching this case,
[1:02:38] no matter how much time we've spent,
[1:02:39] it's not as much time as those jurors
[1:02:41] sitting in Duxbury. And the fact that 11
[1:02:45] out of those 12 sat and listened to the
[1:02:48] terrible details of the case and walked
[1:02:50] away saying, "This person is not guilty.
[1:02:53] We cannot blame her. We We must excuse
[1:02:57] this terrible crime."
[1:02:58] >> That means there's a shift in the
[1:02:59] culture.
[1:03:00] >> Yeah.
[1:03:01] >> For being open to even hearing what
[1:03:03] women have to say.
[1:03:04] >> Right.
[1:03:04] >> Yeah.
[1:03:05] >> I mean and I think it's it's like a
[1:03:07] little bit related to COVID as well.
[1:03:09] Like we all lived through a time where
[1:03:11] mental health and mental illness became
[1:03:14] really legible, right? Like we were just
[1:03:17] struggling. And then that plus social
[1:03:20] media has women telling these stories
[1:03:23] that until now were so shameful that we
[1:03:25] kept them locked up. One in five women
[1:03:28] experience some sort of perinatal mental
[1:03:30] illness, OCD, insomnia, anxiety, right?
[1:03:34] I mean, it is real that it is a struggle
[1:03:38] for many women to get through the
[1:03:40] pregnancy.
[1:03:41] >> I think it's unfair, as we were saying
[1:03:43] earlier, uh as you all were saying
[1:03:45] earlier, that it's on a spectrum. It's
[1:03:47] unfair for a woman to judge another
[1:03:50] woman based upon what happened to her.
[1:03:52] >> 100%.
[1:03:52] >> To say, "Well, when I went through it
[1:03:54] and I was able to stay up all night and
[1:03:56] I was I didn't have any sleep and I
[1:03:58] didn't want to kill my child." I think
[1:03:59] it's unfair because it's a a spectrum.
[1:04:02] It's not just about what's happening in
[1:04:03] your brain, it's about what's happening
[1:04:05] in in in everyone's brain, and there is
[1:04:07] a spectrum and everyone's different. I
[1:04:09] read that many other countries have uh
[1:04:12] guidelines for postpartum women who kill
[1:04:15] their children. Can you explain what
[1:04:17] they are doing differently than we are
[1:04:19] doing differently?
[1:04:20] >> Yeah, so um in England, um which is um
[1:04:25] it I mean, it's sort of a surprising
[1:04:26] thing. Over 100 years ago, they passed a
[1:04:29] law called their infanticide act. And
[1:04:31] when a mother kills a child under the
[1:04:34] age of 12 months, even though it it
[1:04:38] might look like an intentional killing,
[1:04:40] first-degree murder, she's charged with
[1:04:42] infanticide and the the infanticide
[1:04:45] statute says that the you know, because
[1:04:47] the balance of her mind was disturbed by
[1:04:50] reasons of childbirth or lactation, it's
[1:04:53] prosecuted as manslaughter and the
[1:04:55] presumptive sentence is probation and
[1:04:58] counseling. There's no public spectacle.
[1:05:01] There also is no higher rate of
[1:05:03] infanticide in England. It's not like,
[1:05:05] "Ooh, without this without first-degree
[1:05:07] murder, everybody's killing their
[1:05:09] children." Um that that law has been
[1:05:12] replicated in between 20 and 30
[1:05:14] countries around the world. And it's not
[1:05:17] a perfect law. I mean, to be sure, some
[1:05:20] of the mothers deserve a full out not
[1:05:23] guilty for reasons of insanity rather
[1:05:25] than a manslaughter conviction. And
[1:05:28] maybe some of them actually don't
[1:05:30] deserve the manslaughter. They weren't
[1:05:32] insane or mentally ill at all, and they
[1:05:34] deserve a guilty verdict. But what it
[1:05:36] does is it acknowledges that there is
[1:05:38] something so different about these cases
[1:05:41] that our conventional tools of
[1:05:44] first-degree murder or the insanity
[1:05:46] defense, that binary choice that the
[1:05:48] jury in Duxbury faced, like those tools
[1:05:51] are just not up to the task. And so it
[1:05:53] doesn't have to be the kind of media
[1:05:55] circus that we're seeing in this case.
[1:05:59] Um, we can actually resolve the cases as
[1:06:02] as um, you know, within a healthcare
[1:06:04] system and and find ways to focus on
[1:06:08] prevention and mental healthcare.
[1:06:11] >> And also, can we talk about the fact
[1:06:13] that we are a culture that expects the
[1:06:16] woman to do every fricking thing.
[1:06:20] >> Yeah.
[1:06:21] Yeah.
[1:06:21] >> You know, we should take a lesson from
[1:06:23] some other cultures for whom for whom
[1:06:26] the the women come together, the sisters
[1:06:28] help, the mothers help, the people in
[1:06:31] the community help, the village help,
[1:06:34] the when the child comes into the
[1:06:35] village, you know, that takes a village
[1:06:37] to raise a child. We we we're the
[1:06:39] culture that thinks we are the only ones
[1:06:41] who should be responsible for the baby.
[1:06:44] >> Yeah, and it wasn't always like that. I
[1:06:46] mean, industrialization, like the late
[1:06:49] 19th century, changed everything. People
[1:06:52] moved to cities, they have smaller
[1:06:54] families, they're in the house, they're
[1:06:55] far from extended family, they don't
[1:06:57] know their
[1:06:57] >> that, women were
[1:06:58] >> Throughout human history,
[1:07:00] >> to help other women.
[1:07:01] >> is the way humans raise babies. Like
[1:07:03] throughout human history, there was
[1:07:05] somebody there to help that new mom.
[1:07:07] Like there was always somebody else to
[1:07:08] hold the baby. And then we move into
[1:07:10] these little places, right? And like I'm
[1:07:12] moved by both of your stories because
[1:07:14] you've got supportive spouses and enough
[1:07:17] money to access mental health care. I
[1:07:20] mean, how does this look when you're
[1:07:22] just by yourself in the house with your
[1:07:24] two little babies and no health
[1:07:26] insurance?
[1:07:29] >> Makes me want to weep.
[1:07:30] >> Yeah.
[1:07:30] >> Yeah.
[1:07:31] >> Yeah.
[1:07:32] >> I was thinking about that, you know.
[1:07:33] Yeah, go ahead.
[1:07:34] >> From a different perspective as an
[1:07:36] immigrant and also I grew up with a
[1:07:39] family of 12.
[1:07:41] And what I hear the expert been saying
[1:07:44] from the start it is sleep in community.
[1:07:47] So, I grew up and I raised most of my
[1:07:49] nieces and nephew because I was the
[1:07:51] youngest of 12. And what I learned from
[1:07:53] my mom is when my sisters would give
[1:07:56] birth
[1:07:57] the first time after they come from the
[1:07:59] hospital
[1:08:00] the baby's only given to my sisters when
[1:08:03] they need to breastfeed.
[1:08:05] After that, we take turn at the sisters
[1:08:08] to make sure the baby's is taking care
[1:08:10] of and the mom sleeps.
[1:08:12] Sleep is very, very, very important. And
[1:08:15] I think here in the United States,
[1:08:17] coming from Senegal
[1:08:18] I see how much we work and how much we
[1:08:22] depending in the society to pay the
[1:08:24] bills that we forget about ourselves. We
[1:08:27] work year round. Back home, you have a
[1:08:30] year off, paid year off. And we are an
[1:08:35] underdeveloped my country and we get
[1:08:37] paid a year off when you give birth. And
[1:08:40] here in the United States, you can't
[1:08:41] even have 3 months after you give birth.
[1:08:44] So, that is unacceptable.
[1:08:45] >> Well, you're exactly what I was talking
[1:08:46] about, the village of women.
[1:08:48] >> It's the village. So, I think if we
[1:08:49] change our mindset, we will be living in
[1:08:52] a better world.
[1:08:53] >> Yeah, thank you for that.
[1:08:55] Thank you.
[1:08:59] All of our guests today have husbands
[1:09:01] who are supportive, but if you're trying
[1:09:02] to do this by yourself
[1:09:03] >> Yeah, and my mind is the same as Lindsay
[1:09:06] >> this by yourself and you're hearing
[1:09:07] hearing you're seeing the man outside?
[1:09:09] >> It's I mean Carol Coronado is this she's
[1:09:12] a woman serving three consecutive life
[1:09:14] sentences in California. The facts are
[1:09:16] so similar to Lindsay's Lindsay
[1:09:18] Clancey's case except that there was no
[1:09:20] money and no ability to acknowledge what
[1:09:23] was going on and if you ever want to
[1:09:26] like just experience sheer horror at the
[1:09:28] trial they played the voice messages she
[1:09:31] was leaving her mom screaming mommy
[1:09:33] mommy come help come help. Uh it if
[1:09:37] there was just no help to be had and and
[1:09:39] what we do is first-degree murder
[1:09:42] prosecutions and an insanity test that
[1:09:45] doesn't fit postpartum psychosis. Did
[1:09:47] she know it was wrong? She called her
[1:09:49] mom. She said mommy come help so she
[1:09:51] knew it was wrong. So she's guilty.
[1:09:53] >> We want to invite other points of view
[1:09:55] on this. Nicole Russell is an opinion
[1:09:58] columnist for USA Today and she recently
[1:10:01] wrote an op-ed titled Lindsay Clancey
[1:10:04] isn't a motherhood martyr, she's a
[1:10:06] killer. She joins us from her home in
[1:10:09] Texas. Nicole, you've been listening to
[1:10:11] us. What's been your reaction to this
[1:10:13] whole case?
[1:10:14] >> Thank you for having me Oprah.
[1:10:16] Um I think this has been an incredible
[1:10:18] conversation. Uh I'm really glad to hear
[1:10:21] all these points of view especially for
[1:10:23] the women um who shared their stories.
[1:10:26] Uh I am a mom of four. I at one point
[1:10:29] had four kids under the age of six and
[1:10:32] um
[1:10:33] I do remember the the sleepless nights
[1:10:36] and the exhaustion um
[1:10:39] but I I do see an online reaction that
[1:10:43] seems very extreme.
[1:10:45] I the women who are cheering her on
[1:10:48] outside the courthouse and the the sort
[1:10:51] of Tik Tok moms as as was mentioned
[1:10:54] um it seems like we've gone online at
[1:10:57] least, maybe not in this conversation,
[1:11:00] from compassion and empathy
[1:11:03] to
[1:11:04] kind of heralding her as as a hero.
[1:11:07] And I think it's important to remind
[1:11:09] people that we can acknowledge and we
[1:11:12] should acknowledge all the struggles of
[1:11:15] postpartum mental health
[1:11:17] without offering
[1:11:19] kind of this toxic empathy that excuses
[1:11:22] the the murders of the of the three
[1:11:25] innocent children. Other than what you
[1:11:27] mentioned at the outset, there hasn't
[1:11:29] really been, you know, a topic of even
[1:11:31] this conversation. Sort of what what
[1:11:35] what will demand justice for those kids.
[1:11:38] >> And what does justice for the kids look
[1:11:40] like to you, Nicole? What do you think?
[1:11:42] >> I've been wrestling with that,
[1:11:43] especially as I watched, you know, the
[1:11:45] decision Friday of a mistrial.
[1:11:48] I think it is clear that she needs help.
[1:11:51] It seems like she did get a good amount
[1:11:54] of help, although
[1:11:56] and I wasn't in the courtroom. I didn't
[1:11:58] see every single testimony. But I do
[1:12:01] think she needs to be held accountable
[1:12:03] for what happened to her children.
[1:12:06] >> Are you saying she should be punished
[1:12:07] for it?
[1:12:07] >> I do think so. I think our justice
[1:12:09] system and the lives of the three
[1:12:12] innocent children demand that.
[1:12:14] Especially now in light of the fact that
[1:12:16] there will have to be a new trial and
[1:12:18] her ex-husband will have to endure the
[1:12:21] same thing all over again. He too has
[1:12:23] lost his children. And I just feel like,
[1:12:26] especially online, again, not in this
[1:12:28] conversation that we're having, but
[1:12:31] online especially, I'm just seeing
[1:12:33] you know, kind of this movement of
[1:12:35] toxicity
[1:12:36] of of making Lindsay Clancy sort of a
[1:12:39] poster child. And I don't think she's
[1:12:42] the right poster child for this
[1:12:44] conversation because her children are
[1:12:46] still dead.
[1:12:48] >> Is she a poster child for
[1:12:50] and you're just using your term. but you
[1:12:53] know, I started this conversation
[1:12:56] with the idea and intention of
[1:12:59] sharing with the audience how do we use
[1:13:03] this moment
[1:13:05] to move ourselves forward? I mean, so is
[1:13:08] she a poster child for as I was sharing
[1:13:11] and Michelle was saying she's been
[1:13:13] around long enough to talk having talked
[1:13:15] to enough mothers over the years who
[1:13:17] have killed their children and the court
[1:13:21] system,
[1:13:23] uh, society just said, "Oh, these are
[1:13:24] evil women." The fact that we are
[1:13:26] actually divided in this moment with
[1:13:29] other women saying, "That was my story."
[1:13:31] or "That could have been my story." says
[1:13:34] to me that perhaps this this is a time
[1:13:37] to use this for the medical profession,
[1:13:40] for the legal profession to look at the
[1:13:42] laws, to look at what insanity laws
[1:13:46] how they're defined, uh, particularly
[1:13:48] for women who,
[1:13:50] uh, have killed their children. Or and
[1:13:53] men, but also
[1:13:55] to look at ourselves as a society. How
[1:13:58] do we use this moment? How do we use
[1:14:01] Kora and Dawson and Callan's lives to
[1:14:04] move ourselves forward? Have you thought
[1:14:05] about that, Nicole?
[1:14:07] >> Absolutely. I think you're having the
[1:14:08] right conversation because you are
[1:14:10] asking those questions. How can we look
[1:14:13] at what happened if Lindsey is a sign of
[1:14:16] a system gone wrong or postpartum mental
[1:14:19] health struggles that we need to talk
[1:14:20] about. I think that's one thing. That is
[1:14:23] the conversation you're having.
[1:14:24] >> problem is you that the women in the
[1:14:26] pink shirts and the you making her a
[1:14:28] martyr you as you said.
[1:14:29] >> Yeah, my specific takes at USA Today as
[1:14:32] an opinion columnist were simply that
[1:14:34] what I was seeing online this sort of
[1:14:37] Tik Tok fan base of women holding their
[1:14:40] babies and saying, "Same Lindsey." I'm
[1:14:43] wondering what does that mean? Do they
[1:14:45] mean they're struggling with mental
[1:14:47] health? Do they mean they're in the
[1:14:49] middle of postpartum psychosis? If so,
[1:14:51] they should log off
[1:14:53] and they should get help.
[1:14:55] Okay, but they shouldn't be just posting
[1:14:57] same Lindsay holding their newborn for
[1:15:00] clicks
[1:15:02] if they're really struggling. They need
[1:15:04] to turn inward, go like you said, go to
[1:15:07] your family, go to your medical
[1:15:08] professionals. But I'm kind of it kind
[1:15:10] of looks like I'm seeing
[1:15:12] again, especially in online fan base,
[1:15:15] that's gone way too far. And I don't
[1:15:17] think there's any amount of online
[1:15:19] sympathy for the hardships of motherhood
[1:15:22] that should overshadow the if horrific
[1:15:24] actions that stole the lives of those
[1:15:26] children.
[1:15:27] >> Well, thank you. Thank you, Nicole. Your
[1:15:29] opinion got my attention. Thank you so
[1:15:31] much. Thanks for sharing. Caitlyn
[1:15:33] Flanagan is also an author columnist for
[1:15:35] the Free Press and she wrote an article
[1:15:36] that also caught my attention titled The
[1:15:38] Lindsay Clancy Fan Club, the same thing
[1:15:41] that you're saying.
[1:15:43] Uh and Caitlyn joins us from her home in
[1:15:45] uh California. Hi and welcome, Caitlyn.
[1:15:47] It's been a little over a week since you
[1:15:49] wrote your piece and the public reaction
[1:15:51] is getting even louder. What do you want
[1:15:54] to say?
[1:15:55] >> I think you said everything with that
[1:15:57] first word in the conversation when you
[1:15:58] used that word reconcile. It really
[1:16:01] struck me. How do we reconcile these two
[1:16:04] things?
[1:16:05] I, you know,
[1:16:08] the fact of these dead children, you
[1:16:10] know, we're often asked to look beyond
[1:16:13] them.
[1:16:14] Um Michelle who wrote that great piece
[1:16:16] in The New York Times, a very considered
[1:16:18] piece, and spoke with you just now, said
[1:16:20] it's so hard to look away from the dead
[1:16:22] babies.
[1:16:24] I think we need to look at them. We need
[1:16:26] to look at what happened. And these are
[1:16:28] three very small children.
[1:16:31] And
[1:16:33] they were killed in a very, very
[1:16:35] painful, terrifying way by the person in
[1:16:39] this world
[1:16:41] that they learned to depend on the most
[1:16:44] and who would always they trusted her,
[1:16:47] they loved her
[1:16:49] and that out of her mind face was the
[1:16:51] last they saw on this earth.
[1:16:53] And I think that it makes sense that
[1:16:59] a lot of people are have there's there's
[1:17:00] almost an unanswerable question morally
[1:17:03] here in terms of what should we do about
[1:17:06] this legally? What's the punishment for
[1:17:09] this?
[1:17:10] The criminally.
[1:17:11] But I think the fact is, you know, those
[1:17:14] little kids, you know, they had their
[1:17:16] things ready for their clothes
[1:17:19] everything ready for preschool the next
[1:17:21] day. People were their friends were
[1:17:22] waiting for them to show up. They were
[1:17:25] life in session. And that little
[1:17:27] 8-month-old baby, we can't look away
[1:17:29] from him.
[1:17:31] So, I'm not saying this in terms of oh,
[1:17:33] only a guilty verdict would be right.
[1:17:36] I think it's more in the sense of
[1:17:38] can we ever reconcile these two things?
[1:17:42] I don't know. I just don't know. I don't
[1:17:44] have an answer.
[1:17:45] >> You were you you in your article you
[1:17:46] wrote compassion for a woman who says
[1:17:48] she was driven by mental illness to
[1:17:50] commit the world's greatest form of evil
[1:17:53] has turned into something strange and
[1:17:55] almost exultant celebration of Lindsay
[1:17:58] Clancy. So, what do you think is behind
[1:18:00] the women rallying around Lindsay
[1:18:02] Clancy?
[1:18:03] >> Well, there's been a lot of
[1:18:06] misinformation that I I hear it still
[1:18:08] being echoed today that that, you know,
[1:18:11] she couldn't get the help and she kept
[1:18:13] trying to get the help. The
[1:18:14] perniciousness of this illness is that
[1:18:17] she got a ton of help. But I sat down
[1:18:20] yesterday and I read through the
[1:18:22] transcript and I read through the two
[1:18:23] complaints and the two lawsuits.
[1:18:26] And she didn't tell one professional
[1:18:29] that she had thoughts of harming her
[1:18:30] children. She was very guarded about
[1:18:33] that. She told her husband twice. She
[1:18:37] told her mother once, but she really
[1:18:40] guarded that information, which I
[1:18:42] presume is, you know, part of a
[1:18:44] psychotic
[1:18:46] response in sort of knowing that you're
[1:18:48] keeping two books of business in your
[1:18:50] mind.
[1:18:50] >> you've been listening to our
[1:18:52] conversation today, you hear that is
[1:18:54] pretty normal.
[1:18:55] I mean, Brooke didn't even tell her
[1:18:57] husband she saw the man outside the
[1:18:59] window and she was having those thoughts
[1:19:01] for months. So, are we going to judge
[1:19:04] her because she didn't tell or how she
[1:19:08] told?
[1:19:08] >> I'm not talking about judging her in any
[1:19:11] of of what I've had to say, you know,
[1:19:12] writing about her.
[1:19:14] Um, but I'm just saying all of the
[1:19:17] interventions that sound so wonderful
[1:19:19] because we're so eager to never have
[1:19:21] this happen again, we talk about more
[1:19:24] mental health services.
[1:19:26] That doesn't seem to really help. We
[1:19:27] talk about more family around. She had a
[1:19:29] ton of family. I think this is so deep
[1:19:33] and pernicious an illness.
[1:19:36] And I understand completely why in other
[1:19:38] eras it was understood to be a a kind of
[1:19:40] demonic possession for this short period
[1:19:43] of time. So, I'm not saying that
[1:19:46] you know, I've never thought she should
[1:19:47] be try be called a murderer. I don't,
[1:19:50] you know, I think every single mother,
[1:19:53] the minute you heard a glimmer of this
[1:19:54] case, every woman said, "Oh, I know what
[1:19:56] that is."
[1:19:57] And that's the darkness.
[1:19:59] And we all know about the darkness to
[1:20:01] whatever extent it came up.
[1:20:03] >> And And you think that's why the women
[1:20:05] are rallying around her. That's what
[1:20:07] that is.
[1:20:07] >> I think so.
[1:20:09] But as mothers, our other obligation, I
[1:20:11] think, and women, is to really care
[1:20:14] about children. And so, when I see women
[1:20:16] in these Lindsey supporting t-shirts,
[1:20:19] but not talking about those three
[1:20:21] children, I think, you know, we're just
[1:20:23] more polarized than ever. And about how
[1:20:27] do we reconcile it? I don't know if we
[1:20:29] ever can.
[1:20:30] >> Okay.
[1:20:31] >> You know, it's not by it's not by
[1:20:33] punishing these women very harshly.
[1:20:36] Um
[1:20:37] They weren't in their right mind.
[1:20:40] Thank you, Katie.
[1:20:41] >> like
[1:20:42] I can't say anything definitively cuz
[1:20:44] it's just the I keep thinking of your
[1:20:45] room how your
[1:20:47] expression. How do we reconcile?
[1:20:50] It's It's one of those human things that
[1:20:52] maybe only God understands. We can't
[1:20:55] reconcile it. We don't know what to do.
[1:20:59] And and I think having an awareness of
[1:21:01] this is
[1:21:02] >> showing itself to us so that we can
[1:21:03] figure out what to do?
[1:21:05] Don't you think that this is a moment
[1:21:07] for us to start thinking about what to
[1:21:09] do?
[1:21:10] So, reconcile
[1:21:12] perhaps is the wrong term. We can't, but
[1:21:15] how do we now move forward from this?
[1:21:19] How do we use this moment to
[1:21:23] elevate the way we think about it.
[1:21:27] Can we do that?
[1:21:28] >> I think there are a lot of us and I mean
[1:21:30] the side of this, actually, who can
[1:21:33] understand, oh, she wasn't in her right
[1:21:35] mind. She didn't um
[1:21:39] she didn't know what she was doing and I
[1:21:41] I think something obviously was driving
[1:21:43] her
[1:21:44] um the whole time. Something terrible
[1:21:47] was driving her.
[1:21:49] But I haven't heard anybody, you know,
[1:21:51] it's so rare. It gets our attention. It
[1:21:54] must be a very human response to police
[1:21:56] ourselves.
[1:21:57] Um I think that's why the angry side is
[1:22:00] so angry. I think there's something deep
[1:22:02] in us that says nobody should kill a
[1:22:04] baby.
[1:22:06] Um
[1:22:08] and we're just all here and there's been
[1:22:10] this kind of horrible spectacle made of
[1:22:12] it and it's almost like it's a true
[1:22:14] crime show and people are getting on
[1:22:16] TikTok and getting excited and it's just
[1:22:20] it's grotesque.
[1:22:21] >> Yeah. You're Yes. All right, Dr.
[1:22:24] Berndorf, did you want to say something
[1:22:25] to that?
[1:22:26] >> Many things.
[1:22:27] >> Yeah.
[1:22:27] >> Um
[1:22:28] if as I understand it and I didn't
[1:22:30] evaluate Lindsay, but based on what
[1:22:32] you're saying Meg, based on what we know
[1:22:34] about her history, her love of her kids,
[1:22:37] her job as a labor and delivery nurse,
[1:22:40] she would never have killed her kids if
[1:22:45] she were not severely ill.
[1:22:49] I understand that we cannot look past
[1:22:51] and we should never
[1:22:54] It is horrific. It's unspeakable. It
[1:22:56] makes me cry to think about those kids,
[1:23:00] but to punish her for something
[1:23:03] that that's illness,
[1:23:06] we are not taking women's mental health
[1:23:09] seriously. We can't bear to think that
[1:23:13] moms can struggle in this way and until
[1:23:17] we believe that, until we understand
[1:23:20] that women's mental health around
[1:23:22] reproductive times of change, pregnancy,
[1:23:25] childbirth, and the postpartum can cause
[1:23:28] severe and potentially lethal illness,
[1:23:31] we are nowhere.
[1:23:33] >> Yes.
[1:23:33] >> All right.
[1:23:34] >> Yes.
[1:23:37] >> Each of you want to say something. Yes.
[1:23:38] >> I was going to say postpartum psychosis,
[1:23:40] it's a medical emergency and a medical
[1:23:43] emergency requires treatment, not shame.
[1:23:46] And the only way that we can move
[1:23:48] forward is to have amazing interactive
[1:23:50] conversations like this, reduce the
[1:23:52] stigma, acknowledge that it is hard for
[1:23:54] mothers to speak up, and there's guilt
[1:23:57] and shame, and maybe in fact they're
[1:23:59] experience hearing a voice that's
[1:24:00] telling them not to say anything because
[1:24:02] it is such a spectrum.
[1:24:04] >> And I just want to say that I the one
[1:24:06] message I would like to share is I want
[1:24:08] to galvanize everyone here. I don't want
[1:24:10] everyone to feel paralyzed because in
[1:24:12] fact there's a lot that we can do with
[1:24:14] postpartum psychosis and early
[1:24:16] detection. Unfortunately, we can't
[1:24:18] change the past and we can't take back
[1:24:20] the lives of those who were lost in the
[1:24:22] tragedies, but what we can do is we can
[1:24:25] recognize early signs and symptoms of
[1:24:27] postpartum psychosis in the next mother
[1:24:29] and overall reduce that as we talk about
[1:24:32] it more, as we have more conversations.
[1:24:34] So, I think early detection, this the
[1:24:37] pink flags before it progresses to red
[1:24:39] flags, the three T's for for postpartum
[1:24:42] psychosis, temporary, treatable, timely.
[1:24:45] It's very timely. If we get moms help
[1:24:47] immediately, we can save lives. I think
[1:24:49] those are major things.
[1:24:50] >> So, you know, there's a lot we we can
[1:24:51] do. Post and parental leave in the
[1:24:52] postpartum period. And I have to say of
[1:24:54] hundreds and hundreds of women I have
[1:24:56] treated over the years and dads, too,
[1:24:59] there are two things they always ask me.
[1:25:01] One is validation. Am I doing okay? Am I
[1:25:04] a good enough mom? From the mom who's in
[1:25:06] the C-suite that I treat to the mom
[1:25:08] who's in state legislature to the mom
[1:25:10] who's incarcerated and a single mom.
[1:25:12] They ask that, but secondly, Dr. Hader,
[1:25:14] can you help me sleep? And I wish I
[1:25:16] could sign a send a prescription for a
[1:25:18] newborn care specialist to help them
[1:25:20] sleep.
[1:25:20] >> But unfortunately, we can. And you know,
[1:25:22] economically, we need to talk about
[1:25:24] that. And society as a whole, we need to
[1:25:27] move forward and we have to talk about
[1:25:29] early detection, the pink flags, and
[1:25:32] empowering the village. Family, husband,
[1:25:34] spouses, grandmothers, sisters,
[1:25:37] neighbors, the countless number of
[1:25:38] people connected to just one one mom cuz
[1:25:40] it it is in fact countless.
[1:25:42] >> Empowering the village. We are the
[1:25:44] village. Yes, doctor.
[1:25:46] >> And what I was just going to add finally
[1:25:48] is when you see your obstetrician,
[1:25:50] you're thinking about pregnancy, start
[1:25:52] to have these conversations. It is not
[1:25:54] shameful to talk about your risk
[1:25:57] factors, which could be depression,
[1:25:59] bipolar disorder, not having a
[1:26:01] supportive spouse, limited resources.
[1:26:04] All of these are little risk factors
[1:26:05] that when you tick away at them and add
[1:26:08] a baby, sleep deprivation on top, can
[1:26:11] really have you tip over. And the other
[1:26:13] thing that I would just be remiss
[1:26:15] to not say is
[1:26:17] I I hope this never happens again. We
[1:26:20] know statistically it really
[1:26:22] will.
[1:26:23] >> It will.
[1:26:24] >> I want us to have the same passion for
[1:26:27] people who don't look like Lindsey.
[1:26:29] Who don't have her same access.
[1:26:32] >> Yeah.
[1:26:34] Yeah.
[1:26:36] Yeah.
[1:26:38] >> Who Who don't have her same access, and
[1:26:41] education, her melanin, her privilege.
[1:26:45] There are women of color sitting around
[1:26:48] this country in prisons for the same
[1:26:50] thing that we've never heard of.
[1:26:52] And I just want to remind us to have the
[1:26:54] pink shirts and the energy for them as
[1:26:57] well.
[1:26:58] >> Mhm.
[1:26:59] Lindsey.
[1:27:01] Lindsey.
[1:27:05] Michelle, what changes would you like to
[1:27:07] see uh in terms of in terms of uh how
[1:27:11] cases are tried and sentenced?
[1:27:13] >> So, I I think the British model is um
[1:27:17] an imperfect one, but certainly doesn't
[1:27:19] take all of the money and the hoopla
[1:27:21] that we've invested in the Clancy
[1:27:24] prosecution and perhaps re-prosecution.
[1:27:27] But, the short-term easy fix is to allow
[1:27:29] judges to have discretion again at
[1:27:31] sentencing. So, that if you have a
[1:27:33] district attorney who
[1:27:36] like the district attorney in Duxbury is
[1:27:37] like, I need to prosecute in order to
[1:27:39] vindicate the lives of these children,
[1:27:42] then at least the judge could say what
[1:27:44] they won't be able to say here, which is
[1:27:47] this just doesn't seem like a life in
[1:27:50] prison punishment is just, and to allow
[1:27:54] that judge to deviate from the required
[1:27:57] sentence for first-degree murder, and to
[1:27:59] make a sentence that seems perhaps a bit
[1:28:01] more merciful.
[1:28:03] >> I thank you all so much. We'll have to
[1:28:05] end it here. Thank you to all of my
[1:28:08] guests. Thank you for having the courage
[1:28:10] to Just up. Thank you audience. Before
[1:28:12] you we all leave here today. I want to
[1:28:15] again just speak their names of the
[1:28:18] beautiful children.
[1:28:20] Cora
[1:28:21] Dawson
[1:28:24] and Callan.
[1:28:26] Go well everybody.
[1:28:28] Thank you.
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