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Inspiration

Is Mara Real? How the Buddha's Tempter Works Inside the Mind

AB
Amaravati Buddhist Monastery
Oct 24, 2026
9 min de lectura

De Amaravati Buddhist Monastery

Ver · 6

On a Sunday afternoon in October, with the last fortnight of the Rains retreat under way, a monastic congregation settled in to hear a question that has followed Buddhist teaching for twenty-five centuries: is Mara a being, or a mood? Ajahn Amaro opened his talk, titled "I Know You, Māra," by naming the two camps every Western listener eventually falls into. One insists Mara is simply a psychological force with a costume on. The other insists there is a real entity somewhere, causing trouble. His answer, given in the first minutes and then tested across the rest of the talk, is that the figure is both. He calls it a reality that "functions on different levels simultaneously," symbolic and real at once. That claim sounds like a dodge until you follow the texts, the forest-tradition teaching, and the practical stakes he lays out. Then it becomes the most useful thing anyone can say about the tempter.

Leer · 8 secciones

What does the word Mara actually mean?

Start with the word. Ajahn Amaro is plain about it: the word mara literally means death, and the figure becomes the embodiment of everything bound up with delusion, death, and negative qualities. That etymology matters because it tells you where the teaching is aimed. Mara is not primarily a monster in a mythic bestiary. He is the name for whatever pulls a mind away from the end of suffering and back toward the things that feed it.

But a name is not an argument, and the speaker insists the question deserves a straight answer rather than a comfortable one. So he goes to the scriptures first.

Why does the scripture matter more than the psychology?

Here Ajahn Amaro draws a line that many modern readers find surprising. The Buddha, he reminds the congregation, did not want his teaching treated as a belief system, and he discouraged blind acceptance of anything simply because it had been told, made logical sense, or came from an authority. That principle cuts both ways. It warns against swallowing a literal cosmic demon whole. It also warns against dissolving the figure into metaphor just because metaphor is more palatable.

His reading of the Pali Canon is careful on this point. The encounters with Mara are recorded as dialogues between an entity and other beings: Mara confronting the Buddha before and after awakening, challenging members of the monastic community, invading the minds of beings in the Brahma realm or of people on a village street. Nothing in the texts, he notes, says these were only the bodhisatta's thoughts, or only the thoughts of the monks being threatened. The presentation is direct. "I do feel it's important to respect what's there in the scriptures," he says.

He does not stop at the literal, though. The talk is not, he is clear, an exercise in describing Buddhist mythology and asking listeners to believe what they have not seen. The real question is what the figure does for a practitioner's training and meditation.

What happens in the Pabbajja Sutta story?

The talk's emotional center is a passage from the Sutta Nipāta, the collection of verses in the Pali Canon, in a section known as the Pabbajja Sutta, "the going forth." Ajahn Amaro sets the scene with vivid physical detail. The bodhisatta is deep in austere practice, so thin that, as the text itself has it, he could touch his belly and feel his backbone. He is exhausted, faint from hunger, and keeling over.

Into that moment comes Mara, speaking in verse, and his words are gentle, almost tender. The speaker reads the sense of it: you are thin and pale, you are ninety-nine parts pledged to death, only one thread still holds you together, and the others have broken. Give up the search. Pour libations on the sacred fires, make merit, and it will go far better for you.

The answer the bodhisatta gives is the hinge of the whole passage. He calls Mara "cousin of the negligent," a phrase the speaker connects to the Pali pamada bandhu, and says plainly that he knows why Mara has come: for Mara's own ends, not for the bodhisatta's benefit. The temptation was dressed as compassion. The refusal sees through the costume.

"I know why you come here. You come here for your own ends, for your benefit, not for me."

Ajahn Amaro, Sunday talk at Amaravati Buddhist Monastery, 11 October 2026 (paraphrasing the Pabbajja Sutta verse as he reads it)

Notice what this does to the question of entity versus force. The most seductive form of Mara is not a snarling creature. It is reasonable advice, delivered with sympathy, urging you to stop the very effort that could free you. That is exactly how a mental force works in ordinary life, and it is also exactly how an external figure would work if one existed. The teaching lands in the same place either way: learn to hear the voice that tells you, kindly, to give up.

Where do Mara's daughters fit in?

The talk then turns to a later strand of the stories, which Ajahn Amaro is careful to label as the work of later tradition rather than the earliest layer. Mara, having chased the monk for seven years with everything he had, is shown lamenting that his efforts have failed. Then his daughters come forward and offer help. Their names, as the speaker gives them, are Taṇhā, Rāga, and Arati, translating roughly as craving, passion, and boredom.

The three daughters are a compact psychology. Craving pulls toward. Passion inflames. Boredom, the restlessness of a mind that finds the path dull, pushes away. A reader who has sat a few hours on a cushion will recognize all three without needing a cosmic explanation. The speaker notes that the account of the daughters attacking under the bodhi tree is a later invention, but the underlying passage, found in the Samyutta Nikaya's fourth chapter, which he describes as devoted to Mara, contains many such encounters. The stories accumulate, and the pattern is the same: the tempter tries, and fails, to derail the one who is looking clearly.

How did the forest teachers use the figure of Mara?

Ajahn Amaro places the figure within the lineage he represents. He refers to the forest tradition and to the Dhamma talks of Luang Por Chah and other teachers, who drew on the presence of Mara in their teaching. The point is pedagogical. A tradition that wants monks to recognize their own mind's bargaining, its persuasive excuses to quit, needs a vivid enough image to make that recognition hard to dodge. Mara supplies the image. The mind's own voice, personified, becomes easier to catch in the act.

This is where the symbolic and the real stop being rivals. If you treat Mara only as a literal being, you may outsource responsibility: the trouble is out there, not in here. If you treat Mara only as a metaphor, you may underestimate how strong and how organized those forces can be. Ajahn Amaro's position holds both. Respect the texts as recorded dialogue. Then use the figure as a working tool, because a tool that makes the unseen visible is worth more than a debate about its ontological status.

What are the five Maras?

Later in the talk the speaker moves into a more systematic framework, the traditional idea of five Maras, and begins mapping them onto the lived experience of practice. He names physical death as one of them, noting that death is going to happen, and links the broader set to defilement and to the mental formations that keep the mind busy. The sequence he builds is the one a meditator meets in the body and then in the mind: the fact of mortality, the habits of craving, the constructed stories that keep the cycle turning.

Read this way, the abstraction becomes a checklist for attention. When a difficulty arises in sitting, the question is not only "is that Mara?" in the sense of a creature. It is which Mara is operating right now. Is it the fear of ending, the pull of a defilement, the momentum of a thought you have chased a hundred times? Naming the force is the first step toward not being run by it.

Why does any of this matter for ordinary practice?

The talk's quietly radical claim is that the figure of Mara is a training device, and the training is in recognition. The Pabbajja story shows the most dangerous Mara arriving as sensible advice. The daughters show that craving, passion, and boredom are the family business. The five Maras show that the threat is not confined to some remote demon but runs through the body, the defilements, and the thought-streams that fill the mind.

Ajahn Amaro does not ask listeners to settle the metaphysics before they begin. He asks them to take the texts seriously, to notice where the tempter speaks gently, and to answer as the bodhisatta did, by seeing through the motive behind the offer. Whether there is a being out there or not, the mind's voice that says "give up the search" is always available in the room, and the discipline is learning to recognize it. That, in the end, is what the title promises: I know you, Māra. It is an invitation to know the tempter well enough that he no longer has the last word.

Where to go from here

To hear the full talk and the question-and-answer session that follows, the speaker's teachings are available in audio and ebook form through the Amaravati Buddhist Monastery website, under the Teachings menu. Start with the Pabbajja story, which is short and rewards repeated reading. Then take one difficulty from your own sitting this week and ask which of the Maras it most resembles: the fear of death, a defilement you know well, or a formation of thought that keeps returning. Naming it is where the practice begins.

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Transcript

[0:17] [music]

[0:24] [music]

[0:29] [music]

[0:33] [music]

[0:43] [music]

[0:47] So, good afternoon to everyone.

[0:50] Welcome to another of the uh Sunday

[0:53] afternoon talks. Uh we're just beginning

[0:56] the uh last fortnight of the Reigns

[1:00] retreat. So I think there'll just be

[1:01] this one and another couple of of these

[1:04] Sunday talks before the the vasa period

[1:06] is over.

[1:08] So the uh the theme for this afternoon

[1:10] is I know you Mara.

[1:14] So [clears throat] I'll begin in the

[1:15] usual traditional way.

[1:18] [snorts]

[1:35] Buddhas.

[1:53] when one uh comes across the figure of

[1:56] Mara in the uh Buddhist scriptures

[2:00] [clears throat] then uh particularly

[2:02] with a western audience and people who

[2:04] haven't grown up in a Buddhist culture

[2:06] although sometimes when people have uh

[2:09] there's often the question so Mara who

[2:12] seems to be uh a a deity a kind of

[2:17] mysterious celestial type figure who is

[2:20] the embodiment of everything unh

[2:22] wholesome The word mara literally means

[2:24] death. So the embodiment of all that is

[2:28] um tied up with delusion and death

[2:33] and negative qualities. Uh

[2:37] they the question easily arises often is

[2:40] asked so is Mara an actual entity an

[2:44] actual being that sort of lives

[2:46] somewhere or is this just symbolic? Is

[2:49] is this talking about delusion? uh is

[2:52] just uh just a like a psychological

[2:54] symbol uh a uh [clears throat] something

[2:57] that is a a teaching device and so

[3:01] people who don't like the idea of

[3:03] different realms of of beings or

[3:05] different invisible entities say well of

[3:07] course it's just psychological isn't it

[3:08] Ajan you know it's just a it's just a a

[3:12] mental force that's at work that's

[3:13] that's what we're talking about isn't it

[3:15] and others say well you know Mara is

[3:17] real you know isn't

[3:19] isn't that the case that there's a real

[3:21] entity going around causing trouble and

[3:24] uh so we'll look into some of those

[3:26] aspects uh today but I think the the

[3:28] short answer to that particular uh

[3:31] question is of both and

[3:35] both a uh a genuine entity who appears

[3:39] in uh in the teachings and is um

[3:43] in existence in the universe but also uh

[3:47] is quote unquote just a force in our

[3:51] minds that uh you have one of those

[3:53] areas where it's a um a reality that

[3:57] functions on different levels

[3:59] simultaneously. It's both symbolic and

[4:02] real at the same time. I would suggest

[4:05] but we can explore that and there'll be

[4:07] plenty of time for for asking questions.

[4:11] Certainly uh what comes across in the

[4:13] scriptures in the the pile cannon is

[4:16] there are definite dialogues between an

[4:19] entity and other other beings and

[4:24] certainly the way the accounts are are

[4:27] laid out. uh you have Mara coming along

[4:31] to uh to challenge the the Buddha before

[4:33] his enlightenment, after his

[4:34] enlightenment, challenging other members

[4:36] of the monastic community, invading the

[4:39] minds of various uh different different

[4:42] beings up in the Brahma realm or um out

[4:45] on the you know the streets of a

[4:47] village. Um so that the representation

[4:50] in the scriptures is uh very clearly oh

[4:54] this is a being this is an entity. Um so

[4:59] but uh one of the aspects of of Buddha

[5:02] Dharma is it's not a belief system and

[5:06] that the Buddha himself did discouraged

[5:09] blind belief or just assuming a um a

[5:13] fixed reality just because it's

[5:15] something you've been told or something

[5:16] that makes logical sense or something

[5:18] that a spiritual or or kind of academic

[5:20] authority has said to you. Um so

[5:24] [clears throat] I think it it's helpful

[5:26] to to um get that clear and um

[5:30] uh it's certainly that representation um

[5:33] in the scriptures. There are dialogues

[5:35] that go on you know the actual you know

[5:37] conversations that are are recorded and

[5:39] passed down. So, and there's nothing in

[5:41] the scriptures that tells you, oh, this

[5:43] was just in the the bodhisatta's mind or

[5:45] just in the Buddha's mind or just in the

[5:47] the mind of those those bikunis who are

[5:49] being challenged or threatened or just

[5:52] it was just a um a thought form. So, and

[5:57] I do feel it's important to respect

[5:59] what's there in the scriptures. Um, of

[6:01] course, you can say, well, a lot of the

[6:03] scriptures are just symbolic, aren't

[6:04] they, Ajan?

[6:05] So, that's another story. So uh just but

[6:10] I do feel that um the uh and I it'll be

[6:14] part of the reflections I offer um that

[6:18] uh this isn't just to be sort of uh

[6:22] describing Buddhist mythology and and

[6:24] asking people to believe things that

[6:25] they haven't seen or known with their

[6:27] own senses but rather understanding the

[6:29] value and importance of this figure

[6:31] within our um spiritual training within

[6:35] our own lives within our own meditation

[6:37] And you how our teachers from the forest

[6:40] tradition lump lump cha and others have

[6:44] sort of used that kind of presence of

[6:46] mara or the figure of mara in the in the

[6:49] teachings.

[6:50] So, so [clears throat] for example that

[6:55] um in the um the story of the the the

[6:59] bodhicatta what's called the pabasuta

[7:01] the going forth that you find in the the

[7:04] collection the of verses called the

[7:07] sutanipata that's one of the um uh the

[7:10] scriptures one of the the sections of

[7:13] the pie canon that's all in verse form

[7:16] so then it's at a time when the bodhic

[7:19] sata was in his uh austere training and

[7:24] uh he was extremely thin. He you know

[7:27] really exhausted and um having been

[7:30] practicing all kinds of of rigorous

[7:33] aestheticism was really skinny. He was

[7:35] so skinny in that in the same teaching

[7:37] he said I I would touch my stomach and I

[7:39] could feel my backbone.

[7:42] So really skinny

[7:44] and uh and it's sort of keeling over and

[7:47] fainting because of of hunger and

[7:49] exhaustion. And during that time in and

[7:52] in the pabuta that section of the sutin

[7:55] then Mara comes along and says

[7:59] the verse goes something like while I

[8:02] while I strove to subdue myself by the

[8:05] broad Nanjura the river Nangura uh

[8:08] Namucci came. Namucci is another name

[8:11] for mara with words all garbed in pity

[8:14] thus. Oh, you are thin and you are pale,

[8:16] you and you are uh 99 parts pledged to

[8:22] to death. Better for you now to to um to

[8:26] uh give up your give up your search,

[8:28] give up your quest, um pour libations on

[8:31] the holy fires, make merit, and that'll

[8:33] be much better for you. So basically,

[8:35] give up your spiritual efforts um to for

[8:38] enlightenment. um and do things to make

[8:41] merit because that'll be far more

[8:42] beneficial. And you got 99 parts dead

[8:46] anyway. So only only one part of life is

[8:49] is is

[8:51] still like a tiny thread that's that's

[8:54] holding you together. All the other

[8:56] threads have broken. You're exhausted.

[8:58] You're pale. You're you're keeling over.

[9:00] Um and so then the bodhicatta says you

[9:04] know uh namui

[9:06] oh evil one oh cousin of the negligent a

[9:10] wonderful expression which I think is

[9:12] the um pamada bandu is a parley for that

[9:16] oh cousin of the negligent you I know

[9:18] why you come here you come here for your

[9:20] own ends for your benefit not for me

[9:25] uh [clears throat] and he uh doesn't

[9:27] follow Mara's advice so that you have a

[9:30] an encounter right there.

[9:33] And then uh um and some accounts put

[9:36] this before the enlightenment um when uh

[9:41] the Buddha meets with has Mara has been

[9:43] trying to to dissuade the the the Buddha

[9:46] and distract him. Um, some pe some

[9:48] accounts put this before the

[9:50] enlightenment, some put it after, but

[9:52] it's where uh Mara has said, "I've been

[9:54] chasing after this this monk for seven

[9:56] years, and everything I've tried is has

[9:59] failed." And uh he he um uh utters these

[10:04] stanzas of disappointment. I haven't

[10:06] memorized them, but he kind of goes into

[10:08] verse saying, "Oh, wo is me. I'm a total

[10:10] failure. You know, I've tried so hard

[10:12] for seven years to to put this monk off

[10:14] off the track, and it's not working."

[10:16] And then Mara's daughters come along and

[10:18] say, "Father, can we help?" And they're

[10:21] called Tanha, Raa, and Arati.

[10:25] And uh which translates as craving um

[10:29] passion and boredom. Um so that's the

[10:32] his Mara's daughter's name. So they go

[10:34] along, they try to distract the Buddha

[10:37] or the bodhicatta depending on which uh

[10:40] which version you're reading, whether

[10:42] it's before the enlightenment or after.

[10:44] And then they also fail to to distract

[10:47] him. And uh so the later stories of the

[10:50] Buddha sitting under the bodhic tree and

[10:52] Mara's daughters coming in that's that's

[10:54] a later invention. But you do have this

[10:56] passage. It's in the the section of the

[10:58] connected discourses called the Mara

[11:00] Sanguta. It's chapter four. It's the

[11:03] fourth chapter of the connected

[11:05] discourses is all about Mara. Many many

[11:07] stories. and uh this encounter with uh

[11:10] with Mara and having uttered his stanzas

[11:13] of disappointment and uh the daughters

[11:16] going in to try and distract the Buddha

[11:19] being distracted by the falling

[11:21] microphone.

[11:24] Mara's everywhere.

[11:27] Mara in the realm of the condas

[11:29] mechanical Mara.

[11:32] I'll get on to that in a moment. Yeah.

[11:35] So, uh, and and then Mara says, "Yeah,

[11:38] you fools. You're you're like poking a

[11:40] rock with lily stems. You're not going

[11:42] to have any, um, any success there."

[11:46] Like a crow that was walking around a

[11:48] rock, uh, thinking it was a lump of fat,

[11:51] trying to find something edible,

[11:52] something delicious there, but, you

[11:54] know, the crow is disappointed. So, too,

[11:56] you know, you're you're going you're

[11:57] going to have to go away disappointed.

[12:00] And so, there those examples. Another

[12:02] one in that same section chapter four of

[12:04] the connected discourses uh describes

[12:08] after the enlightenment when the the

[12:09] Buddha was was meditating up in the in

[12:11] the Himalayas by himself

[12:13] and uh this thought arises in the mind

[12:16] of the Buddha I wonder if it's possible

[12:19] to to govern to be like a uh a political

[12:24] ruler. I wonder if it's possible to

[12:26] govern completely wholesomely, whether

[12:28] it be a whether one could be a political

[12:31] leader and not be taking life, not to be

[12:34] sequestering property like seizing

[12:36] property, not putting people in prison

[12:38] or or punishing or executing people. I

[12:42] wonder if you could I wonder if you

[12:43] could rule uh and and or govern a state

[12:47] in a completely wholesome way. And then

[12:51] Mara pops up and says, "Oh, yes, of

[12:53] course. I mean someone with your ability

[12:54] is very easy you know you that uh you

[12:57] could certainly do that it's totally

[12:59] possible to govern in a completely

[13:00] wholesome way and then the Buddha says I

[13:03] know you Mara

[13:05] uh and uh the Mara says no no no it's I

[13:11] you can be reassured you really have the

[13:12] abilities one like you who's completely

[13:14] mastered the four part of the four bases

[13:17] of success um as as fully and completely

[13:20] as you have you could you could do it

[13:22] you could

[13:23] you could you could show the world how

[13:25] it's done. And the Buddha says, "No, I

[13:28] know you, Mara. Uh even if uh

[13:32] [clears throat]

[13:32] you that with the with the best of

[13:34] intentions, it's not possible." And Mara

[13:36] says, "Well, look, you know, with your

[13:37] power, you could take the whole

[13:39] Himalayan mountain range and just turn

[13:41] it into solid gold. You could do that.

[13:44] And you know, think what you could do

[13:45] with that amount of money." And the

[13:46] Buddha said, "Yes, I could do that. But

[13:49] even twice that amount would not be

[13:51] enough for one person's greed. So I know

[13:54] you Mara curses and you and also you get

[13:58] in the in the scriptures rather like in

[14:01] those of you who are familiar with um

[14:03] old British theater the kind of music

[14:05] hall villain or the with a curly

[14:07] mustache curses foiled again you know

[14:11] the kind of cheesy villain. Um and that

[14:14] does come across in the parley. It's

[14:16] like you do get a lot of curses foiled

[14:18] again um in the Mara's speeches and

[14:22] responses because he completely uh fails

[14:25] to ever uh trick the Buddha

[14:28] or indeed any of the Buddha's disciples.

[14:33] So there's that uh that that suta is

[14:36] there in the Mara connected discourses

[14:38] about Mara. And then another well-known

[14:41] encounter or of significant encounter is

[14:44] where uh the Buddha has gone up to the

[14:46] Brahma realm uh to to visit this Brahma

[14:49] god who used to be a teacher of his in a

[14:51] former life. Again, those people who

[14:54] don't like the idea of of different

[14:55] realms of beings and heavens and hells

[14:57] and such like Buddhism is not about all

[15:00] that stuff, but it's all there

[15:02] [laughter]

[15:02] in the scriptures. I once did a little

[15:05] statistical analysis of the um the

[15:08] majimika the middle-length discourses

[15:10] because I was teaching I was living and

[15:12] teaching in America and people often

[15:14] very sort of rational materialist

[15:17] audience there and uh didn't like the

[15:20] idea of different realms of beings

[15:21] different he heavens and hells invisible

[15:24] deities and demons and whatnot and so

[15:27] and uh it's all just interpolated later

[15:29] on all just wedged in afterwards it's

[15:32] not anything that the Buddha really head

[15:33] or it's not really there is it and I

[15:36] thought well people keep saying that

[15:37] let's let's do some statistics and so I

[15:40] went through the uh majikaya

[15:43] and in in pretty much exactly 33% of the

[15:47] the sutas of the majikaya you have some

[15:51] reference to past lives future lives

[15:53] different realms of existence that's not

[15:55] an editing job I do a lot of editing I

[15:59] can I can to some degree I can recognize

[16:01] what's been put into a text and has been

[16:03] taken out to some degree. Um, and so

[16:07] that that degree of pervasiveness of

[16:10] kind of being so widely spread in so

[16:13] many different ways and so consistently,

[16:16] you know, all the all the presences of

[16:18] those things, they match each other,

[16:19] they fit together. So to me, it says,

[16:21] yeah, that's that's part of the

[16:23] original. That's not just editing

[16:25] editors wedging stuff in later on for

[16:28] their own purposes. maybe to some degree

[16:30] but certainly it's too consistent it's

[16:33] too pervasive too thorough to not be

[16:35] there anyway so [clears throat] in this

[16:37] story this in the middle length

[16:39] discourses sutra number 49 called the

[16:42] invitation of a Brahma the Buddha picks

[16:45] up uh through the ether uh the this

[16:49] conceited thought in the mind of this

[16:50] Brahma god who used to be his teacher in

[16:52] a previous lifetime and the Brahma god

[16:54] is called baka b aka baka and the Buddha

[16:59] realizes oh this brah this this good

[17:01] Brahma believes that he is the creator

[17:03] of the universe he thinks he's the

[17:05] supreme deity like the the the the

[17:09] creator god and he's the supreme of all

[17:12] beings in the universe o dear so as a

[17:15] favor he he beams up to the brahma world

[17:17] and goes to visit his former teacher

[17:20] Baka and then when when he encounters

[17:22] him then uh the the retinue um uh the

[17:28] The Brahma, the lesser Brahma deities

[17:32] who are surrounding the Brahma Godbaka,

[17:34] you know, um uh all encourage this

[17:37] visitor to be very respectful and to you

[17:39] know to be u say very grateful if he has

[17:42] the opportunity to meet the almighty one

[17:44] and um

[17:46] and so the when they have this brief

[17:49] version is when they have this encounter

[17:51] um the Buddha says you well you think

[17:53] that you're the you're the master of the

[17:56] universe. You think that you're the the

[17:57] highest of all deities, but there are 17

[18:00] Brahma realms above you that you don't

[18:02] even know about. And he said, "Oh,

[18:03] rubbish." You know, you're not you're

[18:04] not a you're not even in the highest of

[18:06] the Brahma realms. You're kind sort of a

[18:09] a third story Brahma realm. You're not

[18:11] it's not even a particular um

[18:13] significantly lofty realm that you're

[18:16] you're in in you're the most powerful

[18:18] being in. And this is rejected by Baka

[18:22] and says, "You don't you don't know what

[18:23] you're talking about in appropriate

[18:25] language.

[18:26] And then the Buddha says, "Well, no, I I

[18:29] do know what I'm I do know what I'm

[18:30] talking about, and I'm coming here to to

[18:32] help you." And then uh Baka says, "Well,

[18:35] to prove to you how powerful I am, I

[18:37] will vanish from your view, and you

[18:39] won't be able to see me, and I, you

[18:41] know, so I'll show that I'm uh more

[18:43] spiritually potent uh and and high and

[18:46] and mighty than you are, but he can't

[18:49] vanish and disappear from the Buddha's

[18:50] view." And the Buddha says, "Well, um,

[18:53] in turn, I I'll show you that I can

[18:55] vanish from you and you won't be able to

[18:57] see me." And and Baka says, "Rubbish,

[18:58] nonsense, impossible." And then Buddha

[19:01] disappears and and then speaks and says,

[19:03] "See, Brahma, you can't see me, but I

[19:06] I'm I have vanished from your view,

[19:09] haven't I?" And he spoke in a voice that

[19:11] the entire assembly of Brahma deities

[19:13] could hear. So um he um uh embarrassed

[19:18] his former teacher and was in that

[19:21] effort of trying to to help this this

[19:25] being and then at that point this is

[19:27] where Mara comes in. Then Mara enters

[19:30] the mind of one of the Brahma gods in

[19:32] the retinue and and sort of takes the

[19:34] the Buddha aside and says, "Don't say

[19:36] this. Don't this is really bad karma

[19:38] you're creating. You know, you're you're

[19:40] embarrassing the almighty one. You know,

[19:42] this you're you're putting him to shame

[19:44] and this is terrible. This is awful

[19:45] karma. You you shouldn't be doing this.

[19:47] It's much better for you to to, you

[19:49] know, to to not be doing this. And and

[19:51] besides you know this this kind of

[19:53] spiritual path that you're talking about

[19:55] you said that um if the saying to the

[19:57] Brahma as he had done look you know

[20:00] you're you're not the level of full

[20:01] enlightenment but if you follow my path

[20:03] the eight-fold path then you can arrive

[20:06] at that that full consumation of of

[20:08] spiritual life. And this uh assistant

[20:11] Brahma says you shouldn't say that.

[20:13] That's that's really bad. That's really

[20:14] bad karma. And this is a paraphrase kind

[20:18] of rough version of the story. And uh

[20:21] and then and besides, you know, you

[20:23] should you shouldn't be teaching this

[20:24] path at all. You know, it's really it's

[20:27] really delusory. It puts people off and

[20:29] and it's far better for you to stop

[20:31] teaching. You know, remain quiet. Just

[20:33] enjoy your your peaceful spiritual life.

[20:35] And and don't be putting this thing

[20:37] about the eight-fold path out into the

[20:39] world. That's that's that's really off.

[20:40] That's really bad karma. You you

[20:42] shouldn't be doing that. And the Buddha

[20:43] says, "Yeah, I know you, Mara."

[20:46] [laughter]

[20:47] And that uh that's don't think I don't

[20:50] know you, I know you.

[20:52] And that uh that that kind of um

[20:58] exchange, you know, it's right there in

[20:59] the scriptures. And again, sort of

[21:01] tatyumpy, one can reject that and say,

[21:03] well, it's all just symbolic, isn't it?

[21:05] But the stories are there in the

[21:07] scriptures. And I think it's important

[21:08] to to be respectful of what has come

[21:12] down over 26 centuries to us. So that in

[21:16] that kind of an encounter

[21:19] uh sometimes you have Mara as a sort of

[21:21] physical apparent seemingly physical

[21:23] figure having a sort of face-to-face

[21:25] dialogue. Sometimes it's just a voice in

[21:27] the mind like with uh um uh that uh uh

[21:32] the the Buddha sitting up in the

[21:35] Himalayas. It's a uh seemingly just a a

[21:38] a voice in his mind. But um the the

[21:42] words that uh in the pari are for I know

[21:45] you mara uh are just in case you're

[21:48] interested you can remember this uh I

[21:51] know is janami co tahang papima so

[21:57] papima is evil one that's one of the

[22:00] common names for mara is papima papa is

[22:03] evil so papima is the evil one so um uh

[22:07] so the most common expression is is

[22:09] jaami uh called tahang papa I know you

[22:13] evil one or I know you Mara. So,

[22:18] so as I was saying um where and where

[22:22] you you hear Mara being talked about in

[22:24] the dhamma talks in the forest tradition

[22:26] and in other places is the in that role

[22:31] of the voices in the mind saying oh well

[22:33] just another one just one more or like

[22:37] um I've had enough you I'm not going to

[22:39] stand for this I'm out of here uh this

[22:42] this is this is an intolerable um and

[22:46] the the mind that goes into different

[22:49] forms of of reaction, aversion. So based

[22:52] and uh brings messages into the mind

[22:56] based on laziness, delusion, greed,

[22:59] restlessness and so on and so forth. And

[23:01] so um in the dhamma talks of lump sum

[23:05] and lucha and others then often in a

[23:08] kind of colloquial way then uh uh they

[23:11] will use expressions or oh then the the

[23:13] maras come along and say yeah oh this

[23:15] meditation is a waste of time I'm going

[23:17] to I'm going to go and make a cup of tea

[23:19] this is this is pointless I'm not

[23:20] getting anywhere you know I'll just go

[23:22] put my feet up. Um and so

[23:26] [clears throat] that kind of um

[23:28] representation normally rather than than

[23:31] talking about a visitation from a a kind

[23:33] of satanic figure, it's this sort of the

[23:35] voices in the mind. And I would say that

[23:38] when we reflect upon Mara and uh and the

[23:41] um

[23:43] uh that role of that that presence in in

[23:46] the Buddhist mythology

[23:48] um then that on a practical level for

[23:52] those of us who are interested in in

[23:54] liberation of the heart and

[23:56] enlightenment this is where it's most

[23:58] significant and also applicable whether

[24:00] you happen to find the mythology and uh

[24:03] different realms of beings meaningful

[24:05] and realistic. or you or you don't.

[24:07] Whether you see it's all psychological.

[24:08] It's all just symbolic. It works either

[24:11] way because that recognition of those

[24:14] voices like saying, "Oh, I I'm not

[24:16] getting anywhere. I might as well just

[24:17] put the kettle on." That to to be able

[24:20] to turn to that voice and say, "I know

[24:22] you, Mara." That I made the resolution

[24:26] to sit here for 45 minutes and we're

[24:28] only at minute 15. So, I know you, Mara.

[24:33] And so that uh I would suggest is where

[24:38] this is useful. It's not just sort of an

[24:40] afternoon talk about Buddhist mythology

[24:42] but where we are able to recognize those

[24:45] forces as they arise within us.

[24:49] So within uh Buddhist tradition again

[24:51] there's different versions you you find

[24:53] different um kind of recentensions of

[24:55] the the mythology and tales. But and I

[24:58] also um uh full full disclosure I've

[25:02] written uh several books with uh uh I've

[25:06] been writing a series of novels called

[25:08] Mara and the Mongala. So I'm kind of

[25:10] acquainted with the territory quite well

[25:12] I would say

[25:14] uh more than many people in the west in

[25:16] the Buddhist field have looked into this

[25:19] and been using it. And so uh in some

[25:23] versions of the mythology there are five

[25:25] maras not just one. So five maras and

[25:29] the five maras are associated with each

[25:32] of the five kundas. So the um the five

[25:36] kundas form material form or the body um

[25:40] uh is rupa material form vana sensation

[25:45] or feeling is the second of the five

[25:47] kundas. And these are the aspects of the

[25:50] the one of the ways that the Buddha

[25:51] described the aspects of body and mind

[25:53] the physical and mental world. So rupa

[25:56] vana feeling is the second one. Uh third

[25:59] one is sya perception. And so uh when we

[26:03] we talk about perception in Buddhist

[26:05] psychology. So feeling is really just

[26:08] sensation. So pleasant feeling, painful

[26:10] feeling, neutral feeling. Wayan doesn't

[26:12] really include emotions. It's not your

[26:15] emotions about things but it's like does

[26:17] it hurt? Is it is it comfortable? Is it

[26:18] pleasant? Is it neutral? That's what

[26:20] vdana is in that territory. SA is the

[26:24] the act of perceiving. So seeing,

[26:27] hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and

[26:29] also to some degree uh perceiving

[26:32] thoughts but as sense objects. So it's

[26:35] the perceiving of an object and the

[26:37] categorizing of an object um before the

[26:40] mind starts thinking about it. So uh the

[26:44] light bouncing off this carpet reaches

[26:46] my eye and I perceive that color then

[26:50] the thinking mind says that's blue. So

[26:53] that the perception is there before the

[26:55] languaging around it. So if that and

[26:57] that makes sense neurologically neurosys

[27:00] neurohysiologically as well. So there's

[27:02] a perceiving of the the sensory object

[27:05] before the mind names it or tells any

[27:08] story. I like that blue or I don't like

[27:09] that blue. So the sya is that uh that

[27:14] perceiving of a sense object. Then the

[27:17] next one sankara mental formations is a

[27:20] very big category. That's where emotions

[27:21] come in and thinking and memory and

[27:24] imagination

[27:26] um

[27:28] uh volition intentions decision making

[27:31] your socara is a huge huge uh range of

[27:35] of things that are contained in that

[27:37] package. So that's the world of of

[27:39] thinking and knowledge, information,

[27:42] opinion, belief, memory, imagination,

[27:45] emotion. [laughter]

[27:46] It's kind of exhausting just to describe

[27:48] it. So that's all in Sankara. That's the

[27:50] fourth of the five kundas. And the fifth

[27:52] one is vinana, which is discriminative

[27:56] consciousness. So that's the the uh and

[27:59] the uh so the the building blocks of

[28:02] experience are are what are those say

[28:06] those sparks of vignano or

[28:08] consciousness. So that you can say

[28:10] that's um a the the capacity of the mind

[28:14] to distinguish one thing from another.

[28:17] So the cognition of different things the

[28:19] basic ability of the mind to cognize

[28:23] that make sense. So the um uh the word

[28:26] vinñana vyana means knowing or

[28:28] knowledge. Vit means separate or apart.

[28:31] So vitana is knowing one thing from

[28:33] another discriminating this from that.

[28:36] Okay. So the five maras

[28:39] um have all got uh different names. So

[28:42] machu mara machu uh is is death. So the

[28:49] one associated with rupacanda with

[28:52] material form that's mara as in physical

[28:55] death. So the word mara means death. So

[28:58] that first aspect of mara is death in

[29:01] our lives. The presence of the the the

[29:04] death of this body the death of of uh

[29:08] all other beings in our families. Just

[29:10] like today being a Sunday, many many

[29:13] many dedications read out of the meal

[29:15] time mostly for people who passed away.

[29:18] So, [clears throat] and every one of

[29:20] these bodies, and this might uh I should

[29:23] it shouldn't need a spoiler alert,

[29:26] but be ready.

[29:28] Every single one of these bodies

[29:30] gathered here in this sila is going to

[29:32] die one day. There's going to be an

[29:34] outreath and no inbreath.

[29:37] That's not news.

[29:40] It shouldn't be news. It might be like,

[29:42] "Oh, no, wait a minute. Hang on." No.

[29:44] Can we negotiate?

[29:48] Every single one of these bodies, which

[29:49] which have all been born,

[29:52] don't think anyone would argue with

[29:53] that. They are all going to have an

[29:55] outreath one day and no inb breath.

[29:57] These bodies, every single one without

[29:59] exception is going to die. There's a

[30:02] 100% failure rate for human bodies,

[30:06] I would say. I mean, I know some

[30:07] religious religious people would argue

[30:10] that from different angles, but uh I

[30:14] would say

[30:16] I kind I can appreciate statistics. I

[30:18] would say there's a 100% failure rate

[30:20] for the human form. They all die. We all

[30:23] die. That's a fact. So, machara is that

[30:26] fact of physical death. So, um

[30:29] [clears throat]

[30:30] and that is something that we

[30:32] contemplate in our reflections. one of

[30:35] the the Buddha's key teachings called

[30:37] the five subjects for frequent

[30:38] recollection that he recommended u both

[30:41] for the lay community as well as for the

[30:42] monastics you to recollect every day is

[30:45] I'm of the nature to age I'm of the

[30:47] nature to sicken I'm of the nature to

[30:49] die all than is mine beloved and

[30:51] pleasing will become otherwise will

[30:53] become separated from me uh uh I am the

[30:57] owner of my karma heir to my karma born

[30:58] of my karma related to my karma abides

[31:01] supported by my karma whatever karma I

[31:02] shall do for good or for will of that I

[31:05] will be the heir.

[31:07] So um people often think well did the

[31:10] Buddha want to make us depressed? Yeah,

[31:13] I don't want to think about that. But he

[31:15] was extraordinarily compassionate. So

[31:18] what he's doing is with that is the the

[31:23] uh the fact of physical death is

[31:26] something that we tend to reject as

[31:28] human beings. we push it away or we

[31:30] think that something's gone wrong or

[31:32] it's unfair or it shouldn't be

[31:33] happening. Now, um I'm sure there's lots

[31:36] of doctors in the room and it's not that

[31:38] we don't take care of our bodies or and

[31:40] take our medicines when they're when

[31:42] appropriate, but [clears throat]

[31:45] every doctor who's ever lived um uh

[31:49] apart from the ones who are still alive,

[31:50] they have died too. as Limpucha would

[31:53] say is even the doctors who are trying

[31:55] to to cure him from his illnesses you

[31:57] know they're going to die too. So um

[32:00] with uh the aspect of of Mara and

[32:03] meeting Mara and saying I know you with

[32:06] respect to physical death is both that

[32:09] physical death is going to happen with

[32:12] with with um a a kind of brutal

[32:17] bluntness. Nature doesn't take much

[32:20] negotiation.

[32:22] It happens whether you like it or not

[32:24] with the best doctors in the world. It

[32:25] keeps happening and it will continue to

[32:27] happen. But in terms of the meditation

[32:30] and this reflection, this is uh and the

[32:34] Buddha's teaching to to bring those

[32:36] those things to mind. I'm of the nature

[32:38] of age. I'm of the nature to sick and

[32:40] I'm of the nature to die. All that is

[32:42] mine beloved and pleasing will become

[32:44] otherwise will become separated from me.

[32:47] That is counteracting maras. The maras

[32:50] that say well we can negotiate. Well not

[32:52] you but but you don't need to think

[32:54] about that. uh and uh that that force in

[32:58] the mind the kind of forgettery along

[33:02] with our memory that that pushes that

[33:04] fact of physical death away it makes it

[33:07] sort of it happens to other people and

[33:09] it's not here it's over there and so the

[33:13] Buddha's great kindness is to say no

[33:15] look read the small print we're all in

[33:17] this so let that be understood let that

[33:19] be appreciated and let that guide how

[33:22] you live how you work how you function

[33:23] in relationship to other people.

[33:27] So, um again I I I might be making

[33:30] generalizations or sweeping statements

[33:33] um but it is extraordinarily common just

[33:35] the way that we speak. And so isn't it

[33:38] isn't it the case that people say if

[33:41] something ever happens to me. That's

[33:46] four layers of padding. If, not if,

[33:50] when,

[33:52] not something dying,

[33:55] not ever, but sometime within the next

[33:59] hundred years, quite likely,

[34:02] you know, happens.

[34:04] Uh, well, it's not exactly a happening.

[34:07] It's a certainty. But isn't that the way

[34:09] we talk? If something ever happens to

[34:11] me, I want you to be taken care of.

[34:13] Like, we don't say, "When I die, it's

[34:15] too blunt. is too too harsh for many

[34:17] people. So we put we we uh use this kind

[34:21] of social padding and the Buddha is

[34:24] saying well yes we can do that but it's

[34:27] more helpful more beneficial and

[34:29] prepares us more completely um when

[34:32] somebody dies and a person is

[34:35] heartbroken um if they haven't as it

[34:37] were done their homework then it feels

[34:40] like something terrible has gone wrong

[34:41] and you and I'm not trying to be brutal

[34:43] or insensitive but when you say well

[34:46] someone's someone's father's just passed

[34:47] play and they say, "Well, how old is he?

[34:49] He's 98." You go,

[34:53] "Well,

[34:55] yes, it's painful, but it's can't be

[34:57] that much of a surprise. At the age of

[35:00] 98, that's you're definitely into the

[35:03] the last percentiles of the average, you

[35:06] know, but it can be still held in. I'm

[35:08] not trying to make fun of anyone or or

[35:10] shame anyone, but it can genuinely be

[35:12] held. But but I just wasn't ready for

[35:15] it." thought well this is what the

[35:17] Buddha's great kindness is say to not be

[35:21] buying into that that buffering and

[35:23] padding and putting that fact of of

[35:26] death you know over in the distance but

[35:28] uh letting it be known that this is this

[35:31] is the way things are and mysteriously

[35:33] that helps us to be more at ease that

[35:35] helps us to be able to live more

[35:38] effectively and in a in a balanced way

[35:41] so but with with debt with death and I

[35:44] would say this comes under the machara

[35:46] category. It's in [clears throat]

[35:49] that when when I when you talk about

[35:51] this, it's also I think within the west

[35:53] people are often so dissociated with

[35:56] their body or not identify with their

[35:58] body apart from how it looks

[36:01] that the body is treated as this sort of

[36:03] thing you don't pay much attention to.

[36:05] And we live in our minds. We live in our

[36:07] social world. We live in our

[36:09] relationships. Uh our reputation, our

[36:12] our friends, our qualifications, where

[36:14] we live, our address, how much money

[36:16] we've got, uh how many years we have as

[36:18] a monk. You know, we we we claim these

[36:21] kind of identities and that becomes more

[36:24] important. Our reputation, our status,

[36:27] our number of followers on Facebook or

[36:30] WhatsApp or whatever. um that becomes

[36:32] more important and more re more who I am

[36:35] than the body. And so uh ego death can

[36:39] be far more terrifying and challenging.

[36:42] Being fired from your job, uh having a

[36:44] relationship break up, you losing your

[36:48] losing your uh um the respect that

[36:51] people have for you, that uh things

[36:54] falling apart, launching some some

[36:56] project and it and it collapsing. Um

[36:58] putting your name on something and it

[37:00] doesn't work. it's it's failed or it's

[37:01] criticized. That can be far more painful

[37:05] and challenging and difficult than the

[37:07] idea well I know my body's going to die

[37:08] one day but you know that sort of the

[37:12] concept of that is put off. We're not

[37:13] really attuned to our body and we live

[37:15] more in our reputation our mental

[37:18] construct of our life and so ego death

[37:21] can be far more frightening than

[37:24] physical death. And uh it's it's quite a

[37:26] long time ago now. But when I talk about

[37:27] this, I often quote this uh famous

[37:30] study. I think it was a Harvard

[37:32] University psychology department

[37:34] probably about 25 years ago now, if not

[37:36] more, maybe 30 years. But they did a a

[37:39] quite an extensive survey on fear, what

[37:42] people were afraid of. Uh about six or

[37:44] seven thousand subjects were interviewed

[37:47] and they filled in these questionnaires.

[37:49] And when they got all the questionnaires

[37:50] back and they analyzed the the numbers,

[37:52] what they found was that um sort of num

[37:55] of the top 10 things people were afraid

[37:57] of, uh so number 10 was having your home

[38:00] burgled and your and your people

[38:03] stealing your possessions. And yeah,

[38:06] number eight was being physically

[38:07] attacked and and injured.

[38:10] So number number five was um having a a

[38:15] member of your your family brutally

[38:17] killed and uh and you dying in a very

[38:19] very painful way. Yeah. Number uh number

[38:23] three on the list was your country being

[38:25] invaded and your mass uh the uh the

[38:29] country being uh in a state of war and

[38:32] destruction being all around you. Uh

[38:34] number two on the list was nuclear war

[38:36] and destruction of life on the planet.

[38:39] Number one on the list, public speaking.

[38:44] People were more afraid of dying on

[38:48] stage than the destruction of life on

[38:50] Earth.

[38:52] And I don't I I I understand that's not

[38:55] just um urban legend, but I I understand

[38:58] that's a that was a genuine um

[39:01] university study, but and and my

[39:03] experience of talking with people for

[39:04] the last 40 plus years and and uh being

[39:08] in the Buddhist meditation realm, it's

[39:10] like, yep, dying on stage, being a

[39:13] social failure is far more threatening

[39:17] and awful than you know the the collapse

[39:20] of the ecosystem, global glob warming

[39:22] the the North Atlant the the the

[39:24] Atlantic heat pump as they call it

[39:26] failing and the the Gulf Stream

[39:28] collapsing and the the ice caps melting

[39:30] and they Yeah. Yeah. But you know I've

[39:32] got to do a presentation

[39:35] that's serious.

[39:37] Again I'm I'm kind of making fun of it

[39:39] but but it uh I feel that that says you

[39:43] know ego death um is far more

[39:46] threatening and frightening. And so

[39:47] again the the Buddha's um encouragement

[39:51] all that is mine beloved and pleasing

[39:54] will become otherwise will become

[39:56] separated from me. So to the ego that's

[39:59] horrible that's like a disaster but why

[40:02] would he ask us to encourage us to to

[40:04] think about that say because that's how

[40:07] how nature works. So get ready prepare

[40:10] your prepare your jitter prepare your

[40:11] heart and look at that feeling of

[40:13] ownership. What do you think you've got?

[40:17] uh your faculties, your ability to

[40:18] think, to move, to hear, to see. We are

[40:21] temporarily able-bodied, those of us who

[40:24] are able-bodied to some degree, but this

[40:26] is a a temporary condition. The eyes go,

[40:29] the ears go, the mobility goes, our uh

[40:34] our agency as a decision, a person who

[40:37] can make competent decisions that goes,

[40:41] not everybody, not a young age often,

[40:44] but in the aging process. So you think

[40:47] this is really depressing dumb talk but

[40:51] why why would the the great

[40:53] compassionate Buddha say think about

[40:55] this look at this explore this and it's

[40:57] going against the that the the the kind

[41:01] of delus the force of delusion the mara

[41:04] of um that that buffers against ego

[41:08] death and said well what uh I if I

[41:10] recognize that my eyes aren't going to

[41:12] work forever

[41:14] then I can really appreciate seeing

[41:16] today. Yeah. I was sitting here right in

[41:18] this spot when I had a temporary

[41:20] eskeemic attack about 18 months ago like

[41:23] a mini stroke. I was uh trying to give a

[41:27] dummy reading [laughter]

[41:29] and I I could hardly read. I had lost my

[41:31] ability to read. I couldn't my my brain

[41:34] couldn't couldn't configure the letters

[41:37] on the page into words without a kind of

[41:40] a very forceful act of will. And it

[41:42] faded out after an hour and a half. But

[41:44] it was a very interesting experience.

[41:46] And when it first arrived, when I was

[41:48] preparing the reading that evening, this

[41:50] was at the end of January 2025,

[41:53] the and I I was staring at a word.

[41:56] Ironically, the word I was looking at

[41:57] was conundrum.

[42:01] And I I could see the black marks on the

[42:04] page. I knew the these are letters. What

[42:07] sound do those letters make?

[42:11] What what do they what do those shapes

[42:13] together mean?

[42:16] Nothing. It went. So I had the thought,

[42:19] well, maybe that's the end of my karma

[42:20] with the written word. Interesting.

[42:23] [laughter] And I got to give a reading

[42:25] in about 3/4 of an hour.

[42:28] And so I did give a preface when I sat

[42:30] down in this spot to give the reading. I

[42:31] said, um, something's gone weird with my

[42:34] eyes. I'm not sure how this reading is

[42:35] going to go today. I think it's even

[42:38] recorded and filmed. So that you can go

[42:39] on YouTube and find it if you if you

[42:41] look anyway. So machara death so ego

[42:47] death as much as physical death and the

[42:49] Buddha's encouragement to to say I know

[42:51] you Mara I know and uh when there are

[42:54] those attachments or presumptions around

[42:56] agency what I can do I can my who I am

[43:00] in the world said well it's temporary

[43:02] and one day it'll go. Is that a loss? It

[43:06] was never yours in the first place. Oh,

[43:09] that redraws the picture

[43:12] I would say. So, second one.

[43:15] Um, so I would say that so the first one

[43:18] uh is on death. The second one is called

[43:21] killesara associated with feeling vdana.

[43:25] And so that is a lot to do with uh

[43:29] within the Buddhist teaching the the

[43:31] link between feeling and craving. So um

[43:36] in those of you who are familiar with

[43:37] dependent origination that that the

[43:40] 12step uh process of how the when the

[43:42] mind is not fully awake it ends up

[43:45] getting uh sunk in in dissatisfaction

[43:49] duka the the the kind of the weakest

[43:52] link in that chain of cause of causation

[43:56] of uh dependent origination is the link

[43:59] I won't go into that in detail I haven't

[44:00] got time but the link between feeling

[44:03] and craving So we can have the feeling I

[44:05] like this is delicious.

[44:08] But then craving is I got to have some

[44:11] more.

[44:13] But the feeling of this is delicious is

[44:16] just a feeling. This is awful. This is

[44:18] really painful. Uh is is a painful

[44:21] feeling. Craving is I got to get away

[44:23] from this. I can't stand this. I can't

[44:24] bear this. I don't deserve this. So to

[44:28] bring the attention to the realm of

[44:30] feeling and to get to know feeling of I

[44:32] like I don't like and that to be able to

[44:36] train the mind to use the meditation.

[44:38] [clears throat] Uh and when Mara says oh

[44:41] yeah well just one more just just one

[44:44] more. Well that's interesting. I wonder

[44:47] if this is mara I would say that's those

[44:51] mara based thoughts of oh I'll just take

[44:53] a quick look I I I'll just I won't

[44:56] bother I can't be bothered with that one

[44:58] you know I'll just I don't I don't need

[44:59] to bother with that that to uh to turn

[45:05] to that say I know you Mara

[45:08] it won't be just one more that oh I

[45:10] wonder if you know what that led to the

[45:12] last five times 10 times 150 times the

[45:16] I'll I'll I'll just uh I'll just have

[45:18] one more. I'll just take a look. And I

[45:20] wonder if you know where that goes. Or

[45:22] like or when you said, "Oh, I can't be

[45:24] bothered with then uh how are other

[45:28] people who were expecting you to bother

[45:31] or you had agreed to the things you'd

[45:33] agreed to do and people were relying on

[45:35] that you didn't want to be bothered with

[45:37] where that went." So that I would say is

[45:41] a key part of our meditation training is

[45:44] and and all of us I would say are

[45:46] greatly benefited by learning that skill

[45:49] to bring mindfulness and wisdom to that

[45:52] that section of the of the causal chain

[45:56] to say this is this is liking it feels

[45:59] like this this is the yes delicious this

[46:03] is great but doesn't mean I have to have

[46:06] another one doesn't mean I have to buy

[46:08] it doesn't mean I have to to chase after

[46:10] this. It's delicious. Yes. Beautiful.

[46:13] Yes.

[46:15] Greatly appreciated. Yes. But there's no

[46:17] therefore. And similarly, this is awful.

[46:20] This is painful. Uh this really hurts.

[46:23] Or this is really boring. Like the you

[46:26] know the third of the daughters of Mara

[46:28] was arity boredom. This is really

[46:30] boring. I can't be bothered with this. I

[46:33] got to I can't stand this. To say well

[46:36] why is what makes this boring?

[46:38] Boredom, I would suggest, relies on the

[46:41] self. There has to be a mei here to be

[46:43] bored. Otherwise, it's just this moment

[46:46] has this particular tone, this

[46:48] particular favor. So that second of the

[46:51] maras, killesa mara, killesa means

[46:54] defilement, I would say is related to

[46:56] feeling and feeling and craving. The

[46:59] third one, kandara, kanda is the the

[47:03] five groups of the body and mind. uh on

[47:06] reflection I'd say that's mostly to do

[47:09] with the identification with the body

[47:11] and the personality. So what we call

[47:13] self view sakayaditti so that I am the

[47:16] body I am the personality. So not the

[47:18] body in terms of it going to die one day

[47:19] or the health of the body but just this

[47:21] is me. I'm a man or I am 70 years old or

[47:24] I I am ao or lump amo excuse me. I I

[47:28] forget as well as everybody else.

[47:31] So this is who I am. I'm British. I was

[47:34] born in Kent. Um this this is uh my who

[47:37] I am. I've been a Buddhist monk for 48

[47:40] years. And so our story, our

[47:43] personality, our occupation, uh where

[47:45] you live, your address, that's all in

[47:47] the I would say the kandamara that says

[47:50] this is real. Now I I am a man. I am a

[47:52] woman. [snorts] I I am gender neutral. I

[47:55] am uh I am old. I am young. I am a

[47:59] success. I'm a failure. I am somewhere

[48:00] in the I'm always somewhere in the

[48:02] middle. I'm incredibly mediocre.

[48:04] Yeah, that's what I am. So all the I ams

[48:08] around the body, the personality, all

[48:11] those selves, I say that's the kandamara

[48:14] and the the mara influence is this is

[48:16] real. I really am a monk. Terravada

[48:19] Buddhism is an absolute reality. You

[48:21] know, I really am a doctor. I really am

[48:23] a mother. I really am a father. I I

[48:26] really am I I really am.

[48:29] Is that so? And again the Buddha's

[48:32] teachings help us to explore that and

[48:34] say well and the example I usually give

[48:36] is so I say okay I am I am Lo Amoro uh

[48:41] I'm 70 years old so if I I've been

[48:44] breathing out so I breathe out carbon

[48:45] dioxide we have all been in this room

[48:48] we've got a very good ventilation system

[48:50] taking the carbon dioxide out but is

[48:53] that carbon dioxide that I breathe out

[48:55] is that 70 years old?

[48:59] Is it British?

[49:01] Is it terraoden? Is it male?

[49:05] Ridiculous. Doesn't make sense, does it?

[49:07] The oxygen I'm breathing in. So, this is

[49:09] we're in Harfordshire. Used to be

[49:11] Bedfordshire from the They changed the

[49:12] county boundaries. Now, we're in

[49:14] Harfordshire. So, uh this air belongs to

[49:17] Harford.

[49:20] Now, it's a Terradan monk.

[49:23] It's not It's not Haracher, it's monk.

[49:28] Where did What changed? Where did it

[49:29] change? Yeah, it can go on endlessly. So

[49:33] that the the mara of to be known in that

[49:37] respect is

[49:40] uh our personality, our body, our our

[49:44] occupation, all those selves and

[49:47] selfings they can only be relatively

[49:50] true. They can't be absolutely true.

[49:55] We can have a discussion

[49:57] but uh they there can be very strongly

[50:01] conditioned things like say well oxygen

[50:03] is oxygen a whether it's inside or

[50:05] outside well is it even you know there

[50:09] probably a few physicists here even the

[50:11] electrons and the protons the neutrons

[50:14] that make up the oxygen they decay

[50:16] eventually

[50:18] they don't hold together forever

[50:21] forever is a long long long long long

[50:23] long long long long long time. So uh

[50:27] that turning to those those fixed

[50:30] identities you know I am a mother I am

[50:32] English I am Thai I'm Sri Lankan I am

[50:34] old I'm young I'm healthy I'm sick say

[50:37] is that so is that the whole story is

[50:40] that a real thing so then we come to

[50:43] sankara the and the fourth mara is

[50:46] abisankara mara abi sankara so abi means

[50:50] means um uh uh great or much or superior

[50:55] Ior or comprehensive abi uh the higher.

[50:59] So it's like the big sankara. And so uh

[51:05] even if we're not so identified with our

[51:07] our body and our personality and our our

[51:09] lif style or our address, we really

[51:12] identify with our choices, our emotions,

[51:16] uh our history, our our moods. It gets,

[51:19] you know, our intentions, our decisions.

[51:22] And the laws of most countries revolve

[51:24] around the decisions that you have made.

[51:26] You I have made you you you did that.

[51:28] You should be rewarded. You should be

[51:31] punished. Uh so decision- making

[51:34] intention that really seems like a self

[51:37] really who we are. But the that saying I

[51:40] know you Mara is to turn to those moods,

[51:43] those decisions, those choices that

[51:46] we've made, those things that are

[51:48] seeming to be really solid, absolute and

[51:50] real and say is that so is that

[51:53] genuinely a permanent solid thing?

[51:55] What's really there? How much of our

[51:57] life do we spend burning energy uh

[52:01] around uh our rightness, our opinions?

[52:05] We have a thought. So it's about

[52:08] believing in information.

[52:10] Uh it's all the knowing about and this

[52:13] is where intelligence and having a a big

[52:16] brain becomes an obstacle because this

[52:19] is where Mara has got a not just a not

[52:22] just a good lawyer but a whole team of

[52:24] expert lawyers that can make a case for

[52:26] anything. You I used to belong to the

[52:29] debating society in the school I went to

[52:31] and uh you you be given a subject and

[52:33] you can either be chosen to to support

[52:35] it or oppose it. And you had to come up

[52:37] with an argument in the debate to either

[52:40] support or oppose it just like that. And

[52:42] you can you find you can make a case

[52:44] something that you don't really like the

[52:45] idea of. You said no you got to oppose

[52:47] it and then you can do it. And with a

[52:50] team of lawyers the kind of Mara you

[52:52] know legal company

[52:54] we can make a case we can our judgments

[52:56] can be seen absolutely flawless

[52:58] completely comprehensive seamlessly

[53:00] correct and we can justify it with all

[53:02] sorts of quotations.

[53:05] So abiankara mara this is trickiest the

[53:08] realm of the of the thinker

[53:11] and so when we talk in Buddhism about

[53:14] knowing and the importance of knowing

[53:17] and listening to lumpmetus dharma talks

[53:20] in particular he talks a lot about

[53:22] knowing but it's really important to to

[53:25] make the distinction between knowing uh

[53:28] as in the quality of awareness itself

[53:31] which is uh formless and non

[53:34] nonconceptual, non-verbal and knowing

[53:37] about completely different things. So

[53:40] knowing about is having information. So

[53:42] and I just was reading a quotation from

[53:44] long a you can be an expert in Buddhism.

[53:47] You can know all about Buddhism and be

[53:49] completely ignorant at the same time.

[53:52] So vija is awareness or that awakened

[53:56] knowing awakened awareness. Avija is

[53:58] ignorance. Not knowing, not being awake,

[54:00] not being aware. So if we are very

[54:02] knowledgeable, we're very intelligent

[54:04] and we've got answers for everything.

[54:06] And as I've mentioned a few times in

[54:07] these talks, as a child, uh I wanted to

[54:11] know everything. I wanted to have an

[54:12] answer for everything. I used to read

[54:13] encyclopedias.

[54:15] I was well known in the family sort of

[54:18] leaning up against the the cabinet of

[54:19] the encyclopedia botanica just

[54:22] trying to remember everything learn. So

[54:25] I would always have an answer for

[54:26] everything. I'd be able to know and even

[54:29] if I didn't really know, I'd fake it. So

[54:31] full you know full confession.

[54:35] So Abisankar Trixie very tricky and then

[54:39] the fifth one uh is related to vinana

[54:43] consciousness. This is the even more

[54:46] subtle level of identification. So

[54:49] there's two kinds of identification in

[54:52] Buddhist psychology. The first one or

[54:54] the the coarse one is self view

[54:57] sakayaditi the identification with the

[55:00] body and the personality. The much more

[55:02] refined one which is uh close to the

[55:05] sort of the the realization of

[55:07] enlightenment is the uh what's called

[55:10] asmi mana the conceit of identity. So

[55:14] even if there's no attachment to the

[55:15] body or the personality, I still can

[55:17] really feel there's a me here who's

[55:19] experiencing, a me who is doing the

[55:22] decision-m, a me who's the the one who

[55:24] who's perceiving, a me that is knowing

[55:27] this moment, a me me the meditator, you

[55:30] know, me the dharma practitioner. And so

[55:32] that is a very edgeless kind of

[55:35] identity. So uh and to see through that

[55:39] is it takes a a very high degree of of

[55:42] mindfulness and wisdom penetrative

[55:44] insight. Um so that um that fifth mara

[55:49] is called devaputa mara and rather like

[55:52] in in Christian biblical mythology

[55:54] Lucifer was the brightest of the

[55:56] archangels. Lucifer means the bright one

[55:58] looks is light. Lucifer is the bright

[56:00] one. He was the the brightest of the

[56:02] archangels who then conceived a a

[56:06] judgment about the creator god and uh

[56:08] and then was hurled down from the

[56:10] heavens um having formed that conceit

[56:14] and thrown down into the into

[56:16] everlasting hell. uh it's another story

[56:20] but that uh dva puta is a very close

[56:23] equivalent because dva is like dava is

[56:25] bright puta is the sun so the son of the

[56:27] davas so mara as a great brightness mara

[56:31] as the mind identified with bright

[56:33] wholesome beautiful noble states of mind

[56:37] so in the uh the the list of subtle

[56:41] defilements of meditation called the

[56:43] vipasana upa

[56:46] quite a lot of lists in this this talk

[56:48] today. So [snorts] you have things like

[56:50] as defilements that come from meditation

[56:53] and I would say it's very closely

[56:54] related to this dva put mara is

[56:57] unrelenting mindfulness uh unremitting

[57:00] energy comprehensive knowledge

[57:04] that all sounds good but these are

[57:07] things that can can arise in meditation

[57:09] but can be obstacles because I'm

[57:11] [snorts] awake all the time I understand

[57:13] everything my mind is absolutely blazing

[57:15] bright there's there's no corner of

[57:17] shadow or darkness

[57:18] This is great. And so they are the

[57:21] upillesa they're the refined defilements

[57:24] because there's this subtle I am

[57:26] experiencing enlightenment. You know I

[57:29] am without clinging my mind my mind is

[57:32] filled with brightness. I have no

[57:33] defilements. And in one of the Buddhist

[57:36] teachings in the middle length

[57:38] discourses the called the five and the

[57:40] three he spells that out. He says the

[57:42] mind says yeah I am at peace. I am

[57:44] without clinging. uh I I have realized

[57:47] nibbana and in Bikubod's translation he

[57:50] puts that I in italics and underlined

[57:52] like I am at peace I have I am free of

[57:55] clinging I have realized nibbana the

[57:57] very way the mind frames it indicates

[58:00] the clinging that is still there so this

[58:03] is very trixy territory the that dvauuta

[58:07] mara so that's the attachment to

[58:09] wholesome bright noble beautiful uh

[58:12] states and often in an unconscious way

[58:15] and these are the kind of kind of

[58:17] problems that uh you maybe many of you

[58:20] would like to have. [laughter]

[58:22] I could do with a bit of unrelenting

[58:23] mindfulness

[58:25] but that sense of the the the agent the

[58:29] the the one who is the experiencer that

[58:32] also needs to be ex examined and

[58:34] explored and let go of.

[58:37] I I thought I'd finish with a so that

[58:39] gives you a bit of a the landscape and

[58:41] so in meditation just asking that

[58:44] question who is meditating challenging

[58:46] that mara like I know that when there's

[58:48] that feeling of me the meditator me the

[58:50] experiencer me who's really getting

[58:52] someplace or me who's got a lot of

[58:54] insight me who's a really wise being

[58:56] it's like well who is it that owns that

[58:58] wisdom who is it that owns this moment

[59:01] does what's the eye that's the

[59:04] experiencer turning the the the the the

[59:07] the viewer back onto the subject to

[59:10] explore that. And when it when a

[59:12] question like who is being asked, it

[59:14] doesn't have an answer. It's you ask the

[59:17] question who is asked to puncture that

[59:20] that subtle conceit of of of identity.

[59:24] Maybe the last little story to share

[59:26] about Mara which I think is is also kind

[59:30] of beautiful and to do with

[59:33] even if we we say taking the Lucifer

[59:36] story um where he's in the biblical myth

[59:39] he's cast down from heaven and with no

[59:42] possibility of of ever leaving hell

[59:45] eternal hell and in in um the uh in that

[59:50] um John Milton's Paradise Lost there's

[59:52] this very very poignant moment

[59:55] um where where where Lucifer says um all

[1:00:00] good is lost to me. Therefore, let evil

[1:00:03] be my good. Like I can't do any good. So

[1:00:09] all I can do is evil. It's very sad

[1:00:12] because in in Paradise Lost, Lucifer is

[1:00:14] a more of a tragic figure than a real

[1:00:16] really evil figure. So but you don't

[1:00:19] have that in the Buddhist mythology. So

[1:00:23] in the fif the the suta after the one

[1:00:26] with the encounter with Brahma, it's

[1:00:28] Mogulana's got stomach ache. Mogulana

[1:00:30] was the Buddha's second disciple. He's

[1:00:31] got a stomach ache. Oh, something

[1:00:33] weird's going on in my guts. What's

[1:00:35] happening here? And he had great psychic

[1:00:37] powers. He sent his mind down into his

[1:00:39] guts and he thought, "Oh, this isn't an

[1:00:40] ordinary stomach ache. This is Mara

[1:00:43] trying to mess up with mess up with my

[1:00:44] digestion." And then he says, "Mara, I

[1:00:47] know it's you. You get out of my

[1:00:49] stomach. you're you're causing trouble.

[1:00:51] You're just trying to, you know, harass

[1:00:53] me and be difficult. And then Mars in

[1:00:56] the suit of Marus says he can't know

[1:00:57] it's me. I'm really well hidden. You

[1:00:59] know, he's just guessing. You know, he

[1:01:01] can't possibly. And then Malana having

[1:01:04] the powers he does says, "You just

[1:01:07] thought he can't know it's me."

[1:01:09] [laughter]

[1:01:10] And I know it's you. And do you know how

[1:01:12] I know it's you? [snorts] Because uh in

[1:01:15] a previous life that um there was a mara

[1:01:19] called Ducy and that Mara Ducey was

[1:01:22] trying to harass the the Buddha

[1:01:24] Kakusandanda and so he entered the mind

[1:01:27] of a village boy and caused that village

[1:01:30] boy to pick up a rock and throw it and

[1:01:31] the rock hit the head of of um Vidura

[1:01:35] who was the um that that Buddha

[1:01:38] Kakusandanda's disciple and caused his

[1:01:40] head to to to be injured. didn't bleed.

[1:01:43] And then uh the bu the Buddha

[1:01:46] Kakusandanda turned around and and

[1:01:48] looked at that Mara Ducey and said,

[1:01:50] "Ducina Mara, you know no moderation."

[1:01:54] And then he was swallowed up into the

[1:01:56] earth and his life came to an end. He

[1:01:57] said, "Do you know how how I know that

[1:01:59] story? Because I was that Mara

[1:02:02] and you know how I know you is because

[1:02:05] that Mara had a sister called Cari and

[1:02:08] Cari had a son Namucci and that's you.

[1:02:10] So I was your uncle. I know you.

[1:02:16] So a very kind of sweet in kind. Again,

[1:02:18] you think, well, it's all just fairy

[1:02:19] tales. Aan, come on. You this [snorts]

[1:02:22] is the 21st century, you know. But

[1:02:26] mythologically, very different from

[1:02:27] Lucifer being cast down to eternal hell.

[1:02:31] You have the Buddha's second disciple,

[1:02:33] the great arant who a few lifetimes

[1:02:36] previously was the embodiment of the of

[1:02:39] e of unh wholesomeness in the universe.

[1:02:41] So Mogulana was Mara in that lifetime.

[1:02:44] So not only is Mara redeemable,

[1:02:48] rescuable, but also a few times

[1:02:50] lifetimes later can arrive at full and

[1:02:53] complete enlightenment. So so redemption

[1:02:57] is possible. There's hope for all of us

[1:02:59] is the short version of that. So, it's

[1:03:01] just gone over the the mark at 3:00. So,

[1:03:04] let's have a break for 20 minutes and

[1:03:06] then some tea and refreshments and then

[1:03:08] we can have some time for discussion.

[1:03:13] And please don't come up and ask your

[1:03:14] questions during the break. Even when I

[1:03:16] say that, people keep doing it. So, so

[1:03:18] please don't save your questions for

[1:03:21] everyone.

[1:03:40] Please uh find your seats again and uh

[1:03:44] as I often say please um uh

[1:03:49] please produce questions that are

[1:03:51] related to the day's theme. Sometimes I

[1:03:54] say that and then people come up with

[1:03:56] something completely different they've

[1:03:57] brought with them in their pocket.

[1:04:00] But I think it is helpful to be

[1:04:02] reasonably disciplined and keep to the

[1:04:05] the subject at hand. Uh but uh

[1:04:10] uh you can never you never predict how

[1:04:13] things will will go. So please do uh be

[1:04:19] prepared to bring forth your questions

[1:04:22] and uh there's a microphone here in the

[1:04:24] center and so be grateful if anyone does

[1:04:26] have a question they can pick up the

[1:04:28] microphone and use it so that everyone

[1:04:30] can hear the question.

[1:04:36] You'll need to switch it on.

[1:04:40] >> Hello and um thank you for the talk. it

[1:04:42] was uh most enjoyable.

[1:04:45] So I do have a question and it's um

[1:04:48] directly linked to the name Mara.

[1:04:52] I wasn't aware of the meaning of Mara

[1:04:55] until about six weeks ago. And I

[1:04:58] actually know Amara

[1:05:00] who is um a massage therapist.

[1:05:06] Why is that funny? [laughter]

[1:05:10] So, I've probably had

[1:05:14] in the last year, I'm guessing maybe 25

[1:05:19] massages

[1:05:20] cuz that is one of my guilty pleas one

[1:05:23] of my gu one of my guilty pleasures is

[1:05:25] to go for a massage. You know, I've

[1:05:28] stopped drinking alcohol. I've stopped

[1:05:30] smoking. So you know one has to give a

[1:05:34] spiritual pat on the back and enjoy

[1:05:36] oneself or at least that is my

[1:05:38] philosophy.

[1:05:41] Um am I able to completely speak my

[1:05:44] truth?

[1:05:45] >> Well is it good to have a question. This

[1:05:48] is asking questions. Yeah.

[1:05:50] >> So the question is why would the parents

[1:05:54] call their daughter Mara?

[1:05:57] >> Because in Eastern Europe it has a

[1:06:00] different meaning.

[1:06:01] But she's Thai and they're Buddhist.

[1:06:06] >> Well, that's very interesting then. Um,

[1:06:09] well, [snorts] the uh the Thai

[1:06:11] transliteration of the word is man. The

[1:06:16] the R becomes an N sound. Man, is that

[1:06:19] right? There. Thank you. So, the uh

[1:06:22] maybe the R sound has a different

[1:06:25] meaning in Thai.

[1:06:28] Any thoughts?

[1:06:34] Um I I'm not I'm not sure why. Um I know

[1:06:37] in Eastern Europe you do come across

[1:06:39] people with uh with the name Mara has a

[1:06:41] different origin but um sometimes uh in

[1:06:46] Thailand um you can sit down if you

[1:06:48] like. The um I when when Ajin Seed was a

[1:06:53] uh a young monk um he was very surprised

[1:06:58] that one of the senior monks at Wabapong

[1:07:02] was called his his name was ugly dog.

[1:07:07] Uh and uh he thought he his tie wasn't

[1:07:10] very good and he thought he must be mis

[1:07:12] misharing that. And then he as time went

[1:07:14] by a few months passed and he no it

[1:07:16] really is ugly dog. And then so he said

[1:07:20] you tanjan

[1:07:22] why is that your name? And he said, "Oh,

[1:07:24] well, I was born on a very unlucky day."

[1:07:27] And so in that in my village or my

[1:07:31] province, if a child is born on a day

[1:07:33] with the with the the planets in a in an

[1:07:37] unfortunate configuration, then the

[1:07:39] parents will give the child a really

[1:07:41] horrible name so that the or the the

[1:07:44] forces of mischief will leave it alone.

[1:07:47] And so that was his so it's a

[1:07:50] possibility that she came from that same

[1:07:52] same kind of a culture

[1:07:54] but it's just guesswork on on on my

[1:07:57] part. So [snorts]

[1:08:00] >> okay one more. Yeah please.

[1:08:02] >> So it's in relation to Mara. So I'm um a

[1:08:06] key numerologist

[1:08:08] and she doesn't know um her date of

[1:08:11] birth which I do find somewhat strange.

[1:08:14] But also what I've picked up, I'm I

[1:08:16] would say I'm very um sensit I'm very

[1:08:19] sensitive to people's energy, especially

[1:08:22] if I'm very um in close proximity. You

[1:08:26] you don't get much closer than them when

[1:08:27] you're getting a massage.

[1:08:30] I feel

[1:08:32] just a complete emptiness with within

[1:08:35] her. Even though she's very very

[1:08:37] pleasant and very efficient and you know

[1:08:41] um gives a lovely massage but I feel

[1:08:44] within her just total and utter

[1:08:47] emptiness which seems that along with

[1:08:51] being called Mara and not knowing her

[1:08:53] date of birth

[1:08:55] something doesn't feel right.

[1:08:58] >> Life is full of mysteries. It

[1:09:00] >> certainly is. That that's my only

[1:09:04] meaningful response

[1:09:06] here.

[1:09:08] So I hope that's useful. So please any

[1:09:10] other questions also my name is Amura

[1:09:14] which means not Mara

[1:09:17] deathless. So Amaravati same same means

[1:09:20] the deathless realm. So

[1:09:24] >> I have a quick question. Um

[1:09:26] >> I'm not good with quick answers.

[1:09:28] [laughter]

[1:09:30] The first thing that strikes me is the

[1:09:32] similarity with the story of Jesus when

[1:09:34] he's in the desert also. He was

[1:09:36] confronted with type of tempter as well.

[1:09:40] Um so it's it's curious that the the

[1:09:43] story repeats itself.

[1:09:45] >> And the other thing maybe you can

[1:09:46] comment on is you know Mora being the

[1:09:49] evil one but maybe it's an angel in

[1:09:52] disguise because it helps our awakening

[1:09:55] to some extent.

[1:09:57] Well, I'd say it's not really a

[1:09:59] coincidence or I'm not really surprised

[1:10:02] the stories of Jesus in the desert and

[1:10:05] St. Anthony also famously um uh so that

[1:10:10] because whether it's sort of myth uh

[1:10:14] etherically existent entities or

[1:10:16] psychological states that's um what uh

[1:10:21] what is met when when a a human being or

[1:10:24] a living being um intends to meet with

[1:10:29] everything that's obstructive or

[1:10:30] difficult and to transcend that or to to

[1:10:33] develop the heart. um to to see beyond

[1:10:37] that to to be beyond those forces and

[1:10:40] not to be guided by forces of reactivity

[1:10:42] and selfishness and laziness and greed

[1:10:44] and so on that that's what is met and it

[1:10:48] can take shape internally or externally

[1:10:50] and so that and like you know the in the

[1:10:53] the Jesus myths you know say Satan

[1:10:56] offering offering him the world you can

[1:10:59] be in charge of this same as the Buddha

[1:11:01] sitting up in the Himalayas Mara is very

[1:11:03] busy you know internationally operative

[1:11:07] but uh so yeah I would say that's it

[1:11:11] crosses cultural boundaries because it's

[1:11:13] the mind meeting with those powerful

[1:11:16] instinctual forces of aggression and

[1:11:19] fear and ownership and desire uh self-

[1:11:23] concern

[1:11:25] etc etc and that in order to meet those

[1:11:28] and know those and to um uh not be

[1:11:32] dominated by that that there's work

[1:11:34] that's involved in those same kind of

[1:11:36] encounters take shape. So, you know, in

[1:11:39] a uh Jung was was um quite hesitant to

[1:11:44] talk about his own sort of visionary

[1:11:46] states. They they only his family only

[1:11:48] allowed his personal diaries and records

[1:11:51] to be published long after he'd passed

[1:11:53] away. But, you know, Yung is known, I

[1:11:55] mean, he obviously covered uh some

[1:11:58] fairly colorful territory in terms of

[1:11:59] talking about the unconscious and

[1:12:01] synchronicity and so on. But um when I

[1:12:04] left California, one of the I was given

[1:12:06] a a a sort of a present of this book

[1:12:09] that had just been published called The

[1:12:11] Red Book. And it's all of Jung's sort of

[1:12:14] personal diaries and beautiful

[1:12:16] calligraphy and paintings of what had

[1:12:19] been going on in him for like more than

[1:12:21] a dozen years. And he was having these

[1:12:24] sort of encounters with these different

[1:12:25] entities and spirit guides and going

[1:12:27] through all sorts of extremely um

[1:12:30] colorful realms and uh and he was a very

[1:12:34] sort of uh highly respected sort of not

[1:12:38] exactly hard-edged western psychologist

[1:12:40] but you know academically very very

[1:12:43] respected psychologist. So, and he um

[1:12:49] and in that there's the same kind of

[1:12:52] question. Well, are these are these

[1:12:54] guides and these beings I'm meeting are

[1:12:56] they outside or are they inside? H

[1:13:00] that's about as as I recall it's about

[1:13:03] as far as you get is a kind of

[1:13:06] but uh I feel it is very archetypal

[1:13:08] speaking of Jung that um those

[1:13:13] uh qualities of of nature and of our of

[1:13:16] our own being that the mind casts us

[1:13:20] into different forms

[1:13:22] um according to our cultural

[1:13:24] conditioning and what as human beings

[1:13:27] will will in a sense may be meaningful

[1:13:29] to us. Again, I don't have a a a precise

[1:13:33] picture of how it all works, but you

[1:13:35] know, in um in one of Joseph Campbell's

[1:13:38] books, uh talking because he was very

[1:13:41] very um well-versed in mythology and

[1:13:44] religion from all around the world, you

[1:13:46] know, he would say when uh some a child

[1:13:50] who is growing up um in in China

[1:13:54] um when um some situation brings forth

[1:13:59] the embodiment ment of compassion. They

[1:14:01] would see Guanian bodhisa

[1:14:04] in Tibet. That would be a male figure of

[1:14:08] of of avalakishwara chenresik.

[1:14:11] In the Middle East, in a Christian uh

[1:14:14] circumstance, it would be uh it' be

[1:14:17] mother Mary. Um and so that the the mind

[1:14:20] forms those archetypal energies

[1:14:22] according to the what you grown up with.

[1:14:25] So in in Britain it'll be one thing in

[1:14:27] in uh in Ireland it'll be St. Bridget

[1:14:30] you know it be mother Mary or uh and uh

[1:14:35] the the forces of danger and destruction

[1:14:38] again you there'll be different

[1:14:40] according to the the culture that you're

[1:14:42] you're you arise in and the mind draws

[1:14:46] upon its memories its imagination and

[1:14:48] then but also say oh so it's just the

[1:14:50] imagination Ajan is that right? Well,

[1:14:54] yes and no. Because you know where does

[1:14:57] a human being start and stop? You know

[1:15:01] where where where does your mind end and

[1:15:03] mind begin?

[1:15:06] M the mind is unlocated.

[1:15:09] So it's only the body rupacandanda is

[1:15:12] related to three-dimensional space. The

[1:15:14] mind has no relationship to space. So

[1:15:18] there isn't a place where your mind ends

[1:15:19] and mine begins. They they

[1:15:22] overlap. But you can't really even talk

[1:15:24] about overlapping because space space

[1:15:26] physical space doesn't apply.

[1:15:30] So our lives and the natural the natural

[1:15:33] order the natural world is is uh in a

[1:15:37] way it's it's a single body the body of

[1:15:40] nature the body of reality and that we

[1:15:42] experience this bit of it you know most

[1:15:45] effect you know immediately and

[1:15:46] intimately but our lives overlap and

[1:15:49] then we're drawing upon the forces of

[1:15:51] nature not just all or is it all within

[1:15:53] me I well yes but what is what's me

[1:15:56] referring to me as the natural Buddha

[1:16:01] why not you know that so um

[1:16:06] the the Buddha's rather than trying to

[1:16:08] sort of figure out what actually is the

[1:16:11] case the uh one of the aspects of the

[1:16:14] Buddhist teaching I didn't talk about

[1:16:15] today but I'll talk about now is that

[1:16:19] when you're exploring these kind of um

[1:16:22] trying sort of to map the territory of

[1:16:24] life the universe and everything then

[1:16:27] one of the most helpful principles is

[1:16:28] the Buddha saying I teach one thing

[1:16:31] suffering and the end of suffering.

[1:16:33] Yeah, he didn't say all the rest is

[1:16:35] gravy. But he could have done that's

[1:16:38] that's the other leaves in the forest

[1:16:39] that you see suffering and the end of

[1:16:41] suffering duka and the duka that's it

[1:16:44] all the rest that images mental images

[1:16:47] or ways of describing things

[1:16:50] in terms of mythical forms or etheric

[1:16:52] beings or mind states or or mathematical

[1:16:55] equations or music. you know that uh you

[1:16:59] can't describe what you're experiencing

[1:17:01] in words but you can put it into a tune

[1:17:03] a music you know different people have

[1:17:05] different ways of expressing so rather

[1:17:08] than trying to pin down a precise

[1:17:10] definition

[1:17:12] the Buddha I feel right from the

[1:17:13] beginning he realized reality is not

[1:17:16] definable so let's just attend to the

[1:17:19] one the one thing that makes a

[1:17:22] difference in everybody's life and where

[1:17:24] change beneficial change can be brought

[1:17:28] about. Okay, duka ending of duker.

[1:17:31] That's it. And it was to me it's kind of

[1:17:34] amazing that he he saw that right from

[1:17:36] the get-go and that was his the the the

[1:17:40] guiding ethic right up until the his

[1:17:42] final passing away. He never changed his

[1:17:45] program really. It's in a in the

[1:17:47] southern Buddhist world. It's like

[1:17:49] that's what he stayed with. And so he

[1:17:53] taught huge amounts of uh of of people

[1:17:56] and and various various teachings but

[1:17:59] all of them are sort of supplementary to

[1:18:01] that one basic principle. Know the

[1:18:04] experience of dukah of dissatisfaction

[1:18:06] and know how that can be brought to an

[1:18:08] end. That's it. All the rest is extra.

[1:18:10] It can be helpful like the 84,000 domat

[1:18:14] talks are there but uh it's it's all

[1:18:18] sort of peripheral. So around the edges

[1:18:21] of that that core principle. So um the

[1:18:25] uh uh these kind of themes and say oh

[1:18:29] rather than having to pin down exactly

[1:18:30] the the differences and the and the

[1:18:33] similarities between Jesus's experience

[1:18:35] in the desert and and the Buddha in the

[1:18:37] Himalayas. Okay. Well, they're kind of

[1:18:40] related stories. That's enough. They

[1:18:42] resonate in our in our minds. Okay.

[1:18:45] Don't have to pin it down and say,

[1:18:46] "Well, where was the Buddha sitting in

[1:18:48] the Himalayas? We need we need a map

[1:18:49] reference, you know, we need a date

[1:18:52] like, well, do you really? So that um as

[1:18:57] I said I'm not very good at short

[1:18:58] answers but um the just seeing those

[1:19:03] relationships and letting those inform

[1:19:04] us in an intuitive way and then letting

[1:19:08] that inside outside same same um that

[1:19:12] and on that that level there's a another

[1:19:16] be the last another question. So um um

[1:19:20] there was a Jesuit priest called Father

[1:19:23] William Johnson who was living in Japan

[1:19:26] and he got interested in in Zen Buddhism

[1:19:29] and started going on to Zen teachings

[1:19:31] and um and so he wrote this book called

[1:19:34] um about Christianity and Zen and the

[1:19:38] sort of dumo of the book the last line

[1:19:39] was there will never be such a thing as

[1:19:41] Christian Zen and predictably his next

[1:19:44] book was called Christian Zen.

[1:19:46] [laughter]

[1:19:47] So anyway, he described this in in a Zen

[1:19:51] retreat. They have a these very brief

[1:19:54] interviews called Dusan

[1:19:56] and it's a sort of in interchange

[1:19:58] between the the teacher, the Roshi and

[1:20:00] the student. And so he goes in to have

[1:20:02] Dusan with the the Roshi and um about

[1:20:06] you three or four days into this sasheen

[1:20:08] the retreat and the the Roshi asks how

[1:20:12] is it and he says very good. Um it's uh

[1:20:18] it's just me sitting there in the

[1:20:20] presence of God.

[1:20:23] And then Roshi says, "Oh, very good.

[1:20:25] Well, soon there'll just be soon you'll

[1:20:28] disappear and sorry, uh God will

[1:20:30] disappear and they'll just be you."

[1:20:33] And then Father William said, "Oh, I

[1:20:35] thought I would disappear and it' just

[1:20:37] be God." He said, "Same, same."

[1:20:42] So anyway, another question. Please pick

[1:20:45] up the

[1:20:51] >> uh thanks Law for the Dama talk. I just

[1:20:53] wanted to ask is mara just our

[1:20:55] defilements or is it more than that? Um

[1:20:59] and if it's more than that is there any

[1:21:01] skillful means to deal with mara in

[1:21:03] daily life?

[1:21:05] Well, as I was good question, but as I

[1:21:07] was describing, effectively, it's the

[1:21:11] the the whole spectrum of defilements

[1:21:13] like I was describing from the machara

[1:21:17] in terms of death, ego death and

[1:21:19] physical death, killesom around desire

[1:21:23] and aversion and and the realm of

[1:21:26] feeling um attachment to the body and

[1:21:29] the personality think you know I am a

[1:21:31] woman, I am a man, I am so many years

[1:21:34] told I this is my these are my

[1:21:37] qualifications and this is where I live

[1:21:39] my family um and so and then so the very

[1:21:43] subtle defilements of like sitting in a

[1:21:45] meditation retreat with your your mind

[1:21:48] completely free of greed hatred and and

[1:21:50] most most of delusion but there being

[1:21:52] the subtle feeling of there's a

[1:21:54] meditator here

[1:21:56] you know there there's a me who's the

[1:21:58] experiencer of this uh it's a defilement

[1:22:02] it's but it's a kind of up it's a it's a

[1:22:04] refined kind of development but so it's

[1:22:06] a whole spectrum from the very coarse

[1:22:08] to the very very refined and so like da

[1:22:11] put that is there's this aura of of

[1:22:15] brightness and purity and holiness

[1:22:18] another [snorts] of the the sources for

[1:22:21] this and it's very closely related to

[1:22:23] the the upillesa the defilements of

[1:22:27] insight in in the northern Buddhist

[1:22:29] tradition there's a from China there's a

[1:22:32] a a fairly unique

[1:22:34] scripture called the Shurangama Sutra.

[1:22:37] It's a kind of main meditation teaching

[1:22:38] in the Chan tradition in China, but you

[1:22:41] don't find it in exactly the same form

[1:22:43] in Tibet or in in um in the it's the

[1:22:47] southern Buddhist world. It's kind of um

[1:22:50] but it's uh in China it's very

[1:22:53] influential and the last section of it

[1:22:55] is called the 50 scand demon states and

[1:22:58] very like the five maras it has 10

[1:23:01] defilements associated with each of the

[1:23:03] five kundas so 50 five times 10 so uh

[1:23:07] and then the first ones for rup

[1:23:09] rupacanda uh are very kind of coarse

[1:23:12] defilements you like violence and and um

[1:23:16] you know selfishness greed and so on but

[1:23:18] then by the time you get to the

[1:23:19] vinyanakanda

[1:23:21] these are the kind of problems that

[1:23:22] anagami's run into kind of once

[1:23:23] returners like the um and so it's a it's

[1:23:29] makes interesting reading there's I

[1:23:30] think there's a set in the library the

[1:23:32] in the Amraati library um with good

[1:23:35] translation to English you can probably

[1:23:36] I don't know if you read Chinese but

[1:23:39] but there's good English translations

[1:23:41] there so the um uh that kind of area is

[1:23:46] like um someone might be a very um a

[1:23:50] powerful teacher. They have thousands of

[1:23:52] disciples. They're very eloquent

[1:23:54] speaker. They have a a great radiant

[1:23:56] presence and they're known as an

[1:23:58] enlightened guru. But they take pleasure

[1:24:01] in the there's a relishing of the number

[1:24:04] of people who come to their talks. They

[1:24:06] in they there's a a subtle um enjoyment

[1:24:10] of people's devotion and a dependency on

[1:24:15] people's devotion. [snorts]

[1:24:17] And so um and then with each of the the

[1:24:21] descriptions of the the states so and it

[1:24:23] might be that someone is already is an

[1:24:24] anagami there a non- returnturner like

[1:24:26] the one notch one notch below arahanship

[1:24:30] um but they still might think oh a lot

[1:24:32] of people came today

[1:24:35] I'm really popular and not even voicing

[1:24:38] it but that that sort of relishing being

[1:24:40] there and then each of the sections ends

[1:24:43] with the words if they know that it's a

[1:24:45] state it's a good state if they don't

[1:24:47] know that it's a state they are bound to

[1:24:49] fall.

[1:24:51] [snorts] So it doesn't mean you can just

[1:24:52] sort of decide oh I won't feel jealous

[1:24:55] of someone else getting all the

[1:24:56] attention or I won't feel embarrassed

[1:24:58] about my project having failed or uh I I

[1:25:02] won't feel uh enjoyment of having a big

[1:25:04] crowd of people on a Sunday afternoon.

[1:25:06] But if I know oh that's an enjoyment if

[1:25:09] you know it's a state like if you eat

[1:25:12] some food that you find delicious you go

[1:25:14] wow this is good you

[1:25:17] the the that kind of practice or knowing

[1:25:19] mara in that respect is like knowing oh

[1:25:22] this is the delicious taste here is the

[1:25:23] mind saying yes that's it so knowing it

[1:25:28] that's the I know you mara if when the

[1:25:31] the mind oh this is good and how can I

[1:25:36] how Can I make an excuse to get some

[1:25:38] more? [laughter]

[1:25:40] Um, [snorts]

[1:25:41] then that is not that mara is not being

[1:25:43] recognized. It's kind of giving that

[1:25:45] that bite of food an intrinsic value.

[1:25:49] It's not being seen as a state. It's not

[1:25:52] being seen as dependent. If you are

[1:25:54] suddenly nauseious, exactly the same

[1:25:57] food, you take one look at it or smell

[1:25:59] it and go because of the body's in a

[1:26:02] different state. So it's not that food

[1:26:05] is not inherently delicious.

[1:26:08] That appreciation from other people is

[1:26:10] not in inherently good. It's good

[1:26:13] because of the the conditions of the

[1:26:15] experience. So in everyday life, the

[1:26:18] more that we use mindfulness and wisdom

[1:26:22] uh cultivate that vija datu, the the

[1:26:25] element of awareness that knows um you

[1:26:29] make a presentation and that your in

[1:26:31] your academic department or in your

[1:26:33] business um proposal and people go, "Oh,

[1:26:37] well done. That was amazing. That was

[1:26:38] incredible." You

[1:26:40] started and and you enjoy it. But the

[1:26:44] mind that says yes, yeah, I really I

[1:26:47] really I really scored there. That is b

[1:26:50] you're bound to fall. That's the dooka

[1:26:52] is being generated right there. If we're

[1:26:56] recognizing the maras like this is

[1:26:58] really delicious, I'm being praised not

[1:27:01] just by my peers but my bosses too. The

[1:27:03] head of department is beaming

[1:27:08] sweet taste.

[1:27:10] That's it. And so then that um that's in

[1:27:15] everyday life very active situations or

[1:27:17] being [snorts]

[1:27:20] uh in the family not just in the working

[1:27:21] world the family you [snorts] might be

[1:27:24] um I mean like like to my sisters

[1:27:28] I am not the abbot of Amraati monastery

[1:27:31] I'm their little brother because I am

[1:27:34] [laughter]

[1:27:35] in their world that's who I am that's

[1:27:38] that's why I spend time with those other

[1:27:40] human beings

[1:27:41] because they're my sisters. We were born

[1:27:43] in the same family. You know, we're

[1:27:44] close growing up and have that that that

[1:27:48] connection. They don't draw close to me

[1:27:50] as a human being because I'm the abbot

[1:27:51] of monastery. They draw close because we

[1:27:53] have the same parents. We grew up

[1:27:55] together. You know, we love each other.

[1:27:56] So, I'm not the same person with them as

[1:28:01] I am here because here I'm the abot of

[1:28:04] Amirati. And uh so if I want them to see

[1:28:09] me as Ajan Amro and you know they should

[1:28:12] bow three times when I walk in the room

[1:28:18] that's not going to work.

[1:28:20] [snorts]

[1:28:22] And similarly, if I if if I if I related

[1:28:25] to all of you um as as if you were my

[1:28:29] sisters in the kind of family

[1:28:30] environment and and [snorts] rather than

[1:28:34] than sitting in the middle seat and

[1:28:36] giving a talk, so we're just having

[1:28:38] family chitchat about um the uh you know

[1:28:42] various bits and bits and pieces that we

[1:28:44] talk about as families, home

[1:28:45] improvements, travels,

[1:28:48] u past uh past events and so

[1:28:52] that would be really weird. It would it

[1:28:54] wouldn't fit with this group. So that um

[1:28:58] part of that cultivation of mindfulness

[1:29:02] and recognizing those the maras is like

[1:29:06] I always want I demand to be seen a

[1:29:08] certain way and if your your your

[1:29:10] parents or your grandparents they still

[1:29:12] treat you like a little girl. It's like,

[1:29:14] well, because they were there when you

[1:29:17] were born [snorts] there. You know, you

[1:29:19] were the little grandchild. So that

[1:29:21] that's you can't say you shouldn't see

[1:29:24] me that way because that's how they see

[1:29:26] you. It's that's their prerogative. You

[1:29:28] can you can feel that kind of, you know,

[1:29:31] I'm a middle-aged woman. I'm grown up.

[1:29:34] [snorts] Don't you don't talk to me like

[1:29:36] I'm five years old. You Well, you might

[1:29:39] feel that, but recognize, oh yeah, I

[1:29:40] know you, Mara. It's like I am a serious

[1:29:44] professional woman. I don't want to be

[1:29:46] treated like a 5-year-old. That's the I

[1:29:48] don't want to be treated like a

[1:29:49] 5-year-old feeling.

[1:29:51] [snorts] That's it. And then so you're

[1:29:53] not being passive or you're not sort of

[1:29:55] shutting that down, but you're

[1:29:56] recognizing um oh well, I'm asking too

[1:29:59] much if I want my gr my granny to to

[1:30:02] treat me like a an an adult all the time

[1:30:05] because

[1:30:07] that's there there's that conditioning

[1:30:08] on that side. So what that means is that

[1:30:11] we we are much more the more we reflect

[1:30:13] in this way and use that kind of a

[1:30:16] practice then the more adaptable we are

[1:30:19] to circumstances. We don't always have

[1:30:20] to be seen in a certain way. We don't

[1:30:23] always have to be performing in a

[1:30:25] certain way. We can let ourselves fail

[1:30:28] without dying.

[1:30:31] You know, you do you do your

[1:30:32] presentation, you spent, you know, weeks

[1:30:36] at preparing or you're an artist and

[1:30:38] you've just got to put months and months

[1:30:41] of work into a into an exhibition at a

[1:30:44] gallery and the the the opening show is

[1:30:49] done in 15 minutes and everyone's gone

[1:30:51] home. It's like, whoa,

[1:30:54] that's painful. [laughter]

[1:30:56] You know, you're not pretending it's not

[1:30:58] painful. Okay. Well, that's eight months

[1:31:01] of work dismissed in a quarter of an

[1:31:03] hour. Okay.

[1:31:05] Right. Let's work with that. Digest

[1:31:07] that. So that even what we call failure

[1:31:11] can be beneficial rather rather than

[1:31:14] that the fear of public speaking or

[1:31:17] dying on stage or like the last thing

[1:31:19] you want to happen is to everyone walk

[1:31:21] out of your out of your uh your launch.

[1:31:24] [laughter]

[1:31:25] with disappointed looks on their faces

[1:31:27] and heading for the tube you so that is

[1:31:31] an that's a kind of superpower

[1:31:34] that we and one of the things reading

[1:31:36] through the sutas even when the Buddha

[1:31:38] is criticized or that and it's kind of

[1:31:42] interesting the very first dhamma talk

[1:31:44] in the majimanikaya

[1:31:47] and I [snorts] say as I said I do quite

[1:31:49] a bit of editing um to me it's a great

[1:31:52] credit to the editors of the pi cannon

[1:31:54] the ancient editors. Suta number one of

[1:31:58] the Majim Minikaya like there's like 150

[1:32:02] sutas in that suta number one which is a

[1:32:05] very sophisticated

[1:32:07] um sort of philosophical analysis is

[1:32:09] called the root of all things the

[1:32:10] brahmach the um moola paraya suta the

[1:32:14] root of all things and the Buddha's

[1:32:16] explaining in great detail um uh these

[1:32:20] subtleties of existence and

[1:32:21] non-existence to this group of monks and

[1:32:25] um uh explaining his philosophy of the

[1:32:28] middle way and at the end of that suta

[1:32:31] it says and those monks were not pleased

[1:32:32] with what the blessed one said

[1:32:36] so talk number one is a failure [snorts]

[1:32:39] it's long sophisticated refined talk and

[1:32:41] at the end of it's like they don't like

[1:32:44] that don't agree verbal sir and you know

[1:32:48] the commentaries say well they had been

[1:32:49] brahinss before they became bikus and so

[1:32:52] they were they were attached to theories

[1:32:54] of existence of the eternal ism and so

[1:32:57] they found the Buddha's philosophy

[1:32:58] uncomfortable but but I thought well

[1:33:00] very good for the editors number one it

[1:33:03] was a he bombed as it were the the and

[1:33:07] they put it in the text the the the the

[1:33:09] the monks were not pleased with the

[1:33:12] blessed one's words very good kind of

[1:33:15] makes me feel these are reliable texts

[1:33:19] that [snorts] if it was polished nor

[1:33:20] made everyone's always inspired and

[1:33:22] everything the Buddha said is glorious

[1:33:24] and totally totally accepted and it

[1:33:27] doesn't make fun of the monks. He

[1:33:28] doesn't kind of put them down. And

[1:33:30] sometimes when he has an interface with

[1:33:32] other philosophers and they present a a

[1:33:35] radically different view, then the the

[1:33:38] um they'll kind of be made fun of in the

[1:33:40] text or that they they kind of go off

[1:33:44] with furrowed brow or spitting blood and

[1:33:46] kind of

[1:33:48] kind of being

[1:33:51] mocked a somewhat. But in that instance

[1:33:54] it's just the bigus didn't approve and

[1:33:56] that's it as I remember just that's it

[1:33:58] no other comment it's quite okay for

[1:34:00] them to to disapprove and and then oh

[1:34:02] later on they all became arahans you

[1:34:03] know might be in the commentary but to

[1:34:05] me it's a great strength and it shows

[1:34:07] the reliability of the teaching that

[1:34:09] sometimes the Buddha gave a really

[1:34:11] amazing comprehensive teaching and his

[1:34:15] disciples who gone forth under him

[1:34:17] sitting there together with a fully

[1:34:18] enlightened Buddha saying

[1:34:21] don't don't like I don't agree.

[1:34:24] And so that um uh is

[1:34:30] and [snorts] then and then the Buddha is

[1:34:31] completely economist. He's not upset

[1:34:33] like how can you possibly not be pleased

[1:34:35] you know then [laughter]

[1:34:37] criticizing them but it's just that's

[1:34:39] it. That's the end of the suta. So

[1:34:42] um if we are wise you you know you just

[1:34:45] like the Buddha in that instance you do

[1:34:47] your best you put everything into your

[1:34:48] work or a family meeting or you're a

[1:34:52] musical performance or an exhibition or

[1:34:56] your work on a in a in the in a hospital

[1:34:59] or a company or whatever wherever you

[1:35:01] happen to be living and working in a

[1:35:03] monastery you do your best with it and

[1:35:08] uh and then learn from what the result

[1:35:10] is. is if everyone praises it and thinks

[1:35:11] that's amazing, that's wonderful. Okay,

[1:35:13] let's learn from that. If people walk

[1:35:17] out and [laughter]

[1:35:18] staring at the carpet or in and leave

[1:35:21] and and don't say anything and you're

[1:35:23] and you realize, well, that didn't work.

[1:35:24] You learn from that. So, it completely

[1:35:27] changes the whole way relate to success

[1:35:29] and failure, approval and disapproval.

[1:35:31] You're not negating it or denying it,

[1:35:34] but you're say okay, what can I learn?

[1:35:37] What can I learn from this? is the the

[1:35:39] basic principle. Not how can I always

[1:35:43] have everything delicious [laughter] and

[1:35:45] never anything bitter but when things

[1:35:47] really go go badly like in that mul

[1:35:50] paraya suta badly

[1:35:53] okay and just like um

[1:35:56] an example that the lump sum would often

[1:35:59] gives he say the the Buddha's first

[1:36:00] dharma talk is is usually reckoned as

[1:36:02] being the dhamma chaka suta the turning

[1:36:05] of the of the wheel of dharma where he

[1:36:08] described the middle way and the four

[1:36:09] noble truths it's Actually his first

[1:36:11] noble truth, his first damat talk wasn't

[1:36:13] the four noble truths. It was the

[1:36:16] dialogue with Upaka on the road to

[1:36:19] Vonasi. And he said the first Buddha's

[1:36:21] first damat talk was a failure.

[1:36:24] So he he's walking along the road and

[1:36:26] Upaka is another wanderer sees this

[1:36:28] radiant tall kind of extraordinary

[1:36:31] powerful uh figure. the sort of former

[1:36:33] prince, the bearing of of a former

[1:36:36] Khatrian prince walking along in rag

[1:36:38] robes and uh this incredible brightness

[1:36:41] and he said, "Wow, you know who are you?

[1:36:43] What have you realized here? Your your

[1:36:46] face is your countenance is amazing. You

[1:36:49] come so radiant, so peaceful. Who is

[1:36:51] your teacher? What what what have you

[1:36:53] realized? You um uh please tell me, you

[1:36:56] know, who are you? What have you what

[1:36:59] have you um uh what have you

[1:37:01] accomplished?" And um is it the case

[1:37:04] that uh you

[1:37:07] [snorts] have realized the deaths? And

[1:37:09] the Buddha said yes. Yeah. I I am fully

[1:37:12] awakened and in fact I'm the only fully

[1:37:14] awakened being in the whole world. Um

[1:37:17] and uh and I uh and soaka says, "Oh,

[1:37:22] really?" And yes, yes, I am the all

[1:37:25] accomplished one and I'm the only one

[1:37:28] and I'm on my way to Vonasi to go and

[1:37:30] beat the drum of deathlessness. And then

[1:37:33] a Pakist

[1:37:34] friend okay you know just like one meets

[1:37:37] occasionally on the street in London and

[1:37:40] Burkhamstead.

[1:37:43] Okay, good for you friend. And then he

[1:37:45] took then he Upaka took off by a

[1:37:47] different path.

[1:37:49] So as lump of say the Buddha learned

[1:37:52] quickly okay don't start with

[1:37:54] declaration of I am the ultimate reality

[1:37:58] but start off with why are you not

[1:38:00] totally happy all of the if there is an

[1:38:02] ultimate reality why are you not totally

[1:38:04] happy all of the time there is duka

[1:38:08] if there is an ultimate real that's the

[1:38:10] kind of the backdrop to the to the

[1:38:11] damashaka suta so if there is dharma if

[1:38:16] there's an ultimate reality

[1:38:18] that's the the uh the the the

[1:38:21] fundamental principle of all of all

[1:38:24] things. If there is an ultimate reality,

[1:38:27] why are we not happy?

[1:38:30] So duka is and so then he started from a

[1:38:34] completely different angle say okay

[1:38:38] birth is duka aging is duka so on so so

[1:38:41] then the four noble truths then there's

[1:38:43] duka there's a cause of duka the ending

[1:38:45] of duka and the way leading to the

[1:38:46] ending of duka so that was dumb talk

[1:38:49] number two but the first one okay

[1:38:51] declaration of truth

[1:38:54] doesn't work it was it was true but it

[1:38:58] didn't help So he wants to teach and

[1:39:00] communicate and help then the thing to

[1:39:02] do is okay what actually helps and then

[1:39:05] when Kandana understood and became a

[1:39:07] stream entress ah yes okay so then that

[1:39:11] was a track he followed from that time

[1:39:12] on was that uh the way of analysis

[1:39:16] rather than the way of declaration

[1:39:20] so time for one more

[1:39:27] all doubts have ended we

[1:39:37] Hello, Banti. Yes. Um, I'm wondering if

[1:39:41] I was going to ask you to speculate on

[1:39:43] what you what who Maro is. And I was

[1:39:47] thinking, um, there's ADHD, autism,

[1:39:50] we're all on the spectrum somewhere

[1:39:52] apparently. So, could there be uh could

[1:39:56] there be um schizophrenia?

[1:40:01] And we could be all on the spectrum

[1:40:03] somewhere where Mara like in some in

[1:40:08] some in some moments

[1:40:13] we are in the Mara state of mind. One of

[1:40:16] these five

[1:40:18] >> Mhm.

[1:40:18] >> inc incarnations of Mara. in other in

[1:40:22] other moments we're in the better states

[1:40:25] of mind. So might the Buddha be

[1:40:30] referring to to that? For for example, I

[1:40:34] come to Amarawati, I listen to talks

[1:40:36] >> and I think, oh, I must ordain now to

[1:40:41] to make the most of the time I have left

[1:40:44] to try and reach

[1:40:46] this goal. And then I walk out and I

[1:40:51] start thinking about my bank account and

[1:40:53] my kids and everything else. So

[1:40:57] that that may be there may be like

[1:40:59] glimpses of that split personality

[1:41:01] that's pulling me away. Could that be

[1:41:04] what the Buddha was talking about?

[1:41:06] >> Short answer. Yes. Exactly. That's

[1:41:08] precisely it is that um the you know

[1:41:13] again whether we we think of Mara as an

[1:41:17] external entity or an internal set of

[1:41:21] processes and habits um inclinations

[1:41:25] um that that's exactly it. Yeah. And

[1:41:28] then one one of the most significant

[1:41:29] things is that when when the mara comes

[1:41:32] there's a whole section of again of the

[1:41:35] um connected discourses the bikuni

[1:41:37] sanuta and and all of all of the

[1:41:40] discourses in that collection are mara

[1:41:42] coming to harass the nuns and try to

[1:41:44] dissuade them from practicing and and

[1:41:46] kind of confuse them and they and they

[1:41:49] all recognize mara and uh you know I

[1:41:52] know you and they're un undismayed un

[1:41:55] dissuaded from their practice.

[1:41:57] Um so it's uh that uh the result of that

[1:42:02] so and also the Buddha or Malana you

[1:42:04] know these different situations. So when

[1:42:06] anyone has that I know you Mara you know

[1:42:10] that Janami [clears throat]

[1:42:12] Coahima

[1:42:15] you know I know you evil one I know I

[1:42:17] know what you are then the result of

[1:42:20] that is that Mara loses his power.

[1:42:24] Now again it's not just knowing about

[1:42:28] you know you know that I've got the idea

[1:42:30] this is just mara it's the it's the more

[1:42:33] complete and profound knowing like I

[1:42:35] know what this is I know this is I'm

[1:42:37] being lied to.

[1:42:40] So um that uh and when you know you're

[1:42:43] being lied to then you can't buy into

[1:42:47] that. So it's not just knowing oh this

[1:42:50] is attractive or this is irritating or

[1:42:52] this is worrying. Um this is just the

[1:42:55] mara as a kind of naming that as an

[1:42:58] idea. It's a so which I would call

[1:43:01] knowing about.

[1:43:03] It's that more profound and complete

[1:43:05] knowing of like uh I'm being lied to

[1:43:09] and I can't be I can't be tricked by

[1:43:12] this lie because I know it's a lie. So I

[1:43:15] hear the words as it were. you know, I'm

[1:43:19] I'm receiving the the image of that, the

[1:43:21] story of it, but I know this is this is

[1:43:23] just not true. So, if you know something

[1:43:26] is is not true and that it's designed to

[1:43:30] deceive, then um it's much easier not to

[1:43:33] buy into it. But um

[1:43:37] a [snorts] lot of our life is and our

[1:43:40] conditioning as human beings is to go

[1:43:43] along with not exactly lies but

[1:43:46] imaginative presentations like what I

[1:43:49] think it was um

[1:43:52] Keats called the willing suspension of

[1:43:54] disbelief in terms of art that you kind

[1:43:57] of go into a story you know Harry Potter

[1:44:00] doesn't actually exist

[1:44:05] He's not there's no genetic profile.

[1:44:09] There's no DNA that belongs to Harry

[1:44:10] Potter.

[1:44:13] But there's a in in the cultural sphere

[1:44:18] that's a a powerful genuine presence

[1:44:21] meaningful person. So the willing

[1:44:23] suspension of disbelief is like you as

[1:44:25] you pick up a Harry Potter book or go to

[1:44:27] a Harry Potter film, it's like you know

[1:44:29] that you uh you know that person doesn't

[1:44:32] really exist but you suspend the

[1:44:33] disbelief to enjoy the story. So um many

[1:44:38] of the difficulties that we have in life

[1:44:40] unlike the Buddha or an enlightened

[1:44:41] being is that when they suspend

[1:44:44] disbelief for the sake of a story they

[1:44:47] remember that they know that. So when

[1:44:49] the the Buddha does tell some once upon

[1:44:51] a time story I mean there are extremists

[1:44:53] who who say every single word of of the

[1:44:56] pi cannon or the northern you know the

[1:44:59] Mahayana teachings of Vajriana every

[1:45:01] single word the Buddha spoke is

[1:45:02] absolutely true and real.

[1:45:05] So you get stories where the Buddha says

[1:45:07] once upon a time there was a a partridge

[1:45:10] and an elephant and a monkey.

[1:45:13] And when he's describing how seniority

[1:45:16] in the SA is established, that's a story

[1:45:18] he tells.

[1:45:20] You know, there was a partridge, an

[1:45:22] elephant, and a monkey. They were

[1:45:23] friends, and they're kind of talking

[1:45:25] with each other in parley, you know, in

[1:45:28] the scripture. And they were trying to

[1:45:29] figure out who was born first. Yeah. Who

[1:45:32] who is who's the oldest? And uh and they

[1:45:37] [snorts] and uh the the the the uh the

[1:45:41] monkey first of all I think it goes that

[1:45:43] the monkey says um well um yeah I

[1:45:47] remember oh no the the elephant speaks

[1:45:49] first and says well you see this banyan

[1:45:50] tree you know I'm so old I can remember

[1:45:52] when I could walk over that banyan tree

[1:45:54] and it only tickled my belly as I walked

[1:45:56] over it and then the monkey say ah but

[1:46:00] uh I can remember when it was so small

[1:46:02] that I could jump over it. So, you know,

[1:46:04] I'm older than you are. And then the

[1:46:06] partry says, well, actually, I remember

[1:46:08] landing here after I had a meal and uh

[1:46:11] voiding a van seed. So, you know, I'm

[1:46:13] older than both of you. And so, they

[1:46:15] then paid respects to the partridge as

[1:46:17] being the elder. And so, this is how we

[1:46:19] should establish seniority in the SA.

[1:46:22] You know, the oldest is respected above

[1:46:24] those who come after. and that so that's

[1:46:26] a scriptural story but I don't think

[1:46:30] that there actually was a partridge and

[1:46:33] an elephant and a monkey who were

[1:46:35] talking with each other. It's a it's a

[1:46:37] just so story. [snorts] It's a it's a

[1:46:40] once upon a time fairy tale but the you

[1:46:42] know the Buddha tells it as a story. So

[1:46:45] but when he's telling that story it's an

[1:46:47] illustration of how why he wants to

[1:46:49] establish seniority in the SA like that

[1:46:51] but he knows it's a once upon a time

[1:46:54] thing. So, uh, when we're going into our

[1:46:59] everyday lives and we know, okay, uh,

[1:47:02] I'm watching a football match. I'm, uh,

[1:47:06] I'm cook I'm preparing a meal, I'm

[1:47:10] talking with my family, I'm I'm at a at

[1:47:13] a business meeting. Uh, okay. This is a

[1:47:16] fabricated reality. the rules of a

[1:47:18] football game, the rules of how you

[1:47:20] behave around a boardroom table, the

[1:47:22] rules of how you put a meal together and

[1:47:25] prepare things for the family, whatever

[1:47:26] it is we we might be doing or giving a

[1:47:28] dumber talk. Okay, this is a fabricated

[1:47:32] reality.

[1:47:33] It's a set of agreements that we have.

[1:47:35] It's done like this. This is what we

[1:47:37] call having food together and it's

[1:47:39] prepared like this. This is what we call

[1:47:40] a football game. People arrange

[1:47:42] themselves on this rectangle of grass

[1:47:44] and they run around with the ball

[1:47:46] because of this and that reason. There's

[1:47:48] things you do, things you don't do. Most

[1:47:50] of the people don't pick the ball up

[1:47:52] with their hands unless they're doing a

[1:47:54] throwin when it's okay. If they're on

[1:47:56] the pitch, then they can't pick the ball

[1:47:57] up with their hands. A set of

[1:47:59] conditioned behaviors.

[1:48:01] How you operate in a monastery,

[1:48:05] how you put on your robes, how uh you

[1:48:07] talk with with strangers, how you talk

[1:48:08] with friends. So the more that we can

[1:48:11] remember this is a set of conditioned

[1:48:13] behaviors there is nothing solid and

[1:48:16] absolute here we uh then we are oh this

[1:48:21] is just a set of conditions it's

[1:48:22] conventional truth we give it value we

[1:48:26] determine its value it should be done

[1:48:27] this way it shouldn't be done that way

[1:48:29] so the more that I would say someone

[1:48:32] like the the Lord Buddha or enlightened

[1:48:35] being they know all the time the mind

[1:48:37] knows all the time the degree to which a

[1:48:40] a convention or a condition is being

[1:48:41] used. So the Buddha used the conventions

[1:48:44] of the vinaya and wearing robes and

[1:48:46] talking a language. He knew this is a

[1:48:48] set of conventions, a set of agreements.

[1:48:50] There's nothing absolute or solid or

[1:48:53] completely real here. But these are

[1:48:55] useful conventions like the rules of a

[1:48:57] football game or the the way to to

[1:49:00] behave around a table over a meal or the

[1:49:02] way to look after a a dumb talk or a

[1:49:04] business meeting.

[1:49:06] [snorts] So that um there's a difference

[1:49:10] between using conventions with wisdom

[1:49:15] and and receiving the conventions other

[1:49:18] people are going by like talking about

[1:49:20] my sisters and the how they relate to me

[1:49:21] in the family. I mean they're very

[1:49:22] polite and and helpful and good people.

[1:49:25] Um but I'm not their teacher.

[1:49:28] So you're uh [clears throat] but when um

[1:49:32] you are being told you know this is the

[1:49:35] absolute truth or this is this is real

[1:49:37] this is solid this is uh this is

[1:49:39] important and you should buy into this

[1:49:41] you should be intimidated by this you

[1:49:43] should be excited by this you should say

[1:49:45] this is you should see this as being

[1:49:47] absolutely valuable then there's that

[1:49:50] the mindfulness and wisdom is that which

[1:49:52] recognizes no it can't be it's only a

[1:49:55] set of agreements

[1:49:57] um And like I said, if you know you're

[1:50:00] being lied to and or and someone is is

[1:50:04] um trying to persuade you of a

[1:50:06] particular position or something has

[1:50:08] value, you know, then you say, "Well,

[1:50:10] they believe in that. They take that to

[1:50:12] be true. I don't see it as true." And

[1:50:15] you're not trying to make yourself uh

[1:50:17] believe it. I I hope it's not too

[1:50:20] complicated what I'm saying, but rather

[1:50:23] so if we recognize that we are

[1:50:29] um we're using conventions in a skillful

[1:50:33] way, but without delusion about them

[1:50:36] being conventions. So you know, okay,

[1:50:38] this is how you how you behave in a in a

[1:50:41] business meeting. This is how you behave

[1:50:42] with a family. This is how you behave in

[1:50:43] a monastery. And it's not anything

[1:50:46] absolutely real and but this is

[1:50:50] appropriate to this situation this time

[1:50:51] this place and so on. And so that uh uh

[1:50:56] you

[1:50:58] uh the more that that you're able to

[1:50:59] remember that

[1:51:01] then the more you're able to work with

[1:51:04] the the way the world is the way people

[1:51:06] are around you and so I would say

[1:51:08] schizophrenia schizophrenia or mental

[1:51:12] illness and sort of mara's work that is

[1:51:17] the degree to which we we we buy into

[1:51:20] those conventions we make them into

[1:51:22] something absolutely completely real. We

[1:51:24] we give them value that they don't

[1:51:26] really have. We lose the perspective

[1:51:29] essentially. So wisdom, mindfulness and

[1:51:33] wisdom is sustaining the perspective. So

[1:51:35] the the Buddha would be the embodiment

[1:51:37] of of mindfulness and wisdom that would

[1:51:40] never lose that perspective. But then

[1:51:42] the skill is using the conventions of

[1:51:44] our life um and uh working with with

[1:51:49] other people and working in the world uh

[1:51:52] in ways that can help you to see more

[1:51:55] clearly and can help others to see more

[1:51:56] clearly.

[1:51:58] So when we're being pressured by the

[1:52:02] media or by our family or by our work

[1:52:04] colleagues into seeing things in a

[1:52:07] particular way without being

[1:52:08] disrespectful or aversive or intimidated

[1:52:11] say well that's the way this person or

[1:52:14] these people see these things that's

[1:52:15] their business. Uh I don't have to go

[1:52:17] along with it. I don't have to buy into

[1:52:19] that. I don't have to I don't have to

[1:52:20] believe in that. I don't have to to see

[1:52:22] it in in the same way.

[1:52:25] So I hope that's not confusing but uh

[1:52:28] >> thank you very much. Yeah,

[1:52:30] >> lot to think about. Thank you.

[1:52:32] >> Lot to think about well the time has

[1:52:34] gone past 4:00 so time to think about

[1:52:38] the convention of partying company. So

[1:52:41] let's call it to a close then.

[1:53:00] Thank you very much for good questions.

[1:53:02] [snorts]

[1:53:03] Go well. There'll be a as I said another

[1:53:06] couple of Sunday afternoon talks uh

[1:53:08] during this period and then I think the

[1:53:10] the last one will be I think the 25th of

[1:53:14] October. So couple more.

AB
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Amaravati Buddhist Monastery

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¿Tienes Preguntas?

Preguntas Frecuentes

Ajahn Amaro's answer in this talk is that Mara is both. He argues the scriptures present Mara as a genuine entity in dialogues with the Buddha and others, while also functioning as a force in the mind that the practitioner must recognize.
Ajahn Amaro explains that the word mara literally means death. The figure comes to embody everything tied up with delusion, death, and negative qualities.
In the Sutta Nipata's Pabbajja Sutta, Mara approaches the exhausted, emaciated bodhisatta and urges him to give up his spiritual search and make merit instead. The bodhisatta refuses, calling Mara a cousin of the negligent and saying Mara comes for his own ends.
Ajahn Amaro names them as Tanha, Raga, and Arati, which he translates as craving, passion, and boredom. In the later stories they try to distract the Buddha after Mara's own efforts fail over seven years.
Forest-tradition teachers such as Luang Por Chah used Mara as a vivid image for the mind's own persuasive voice, the excuses and pulls that derail practice. Personifying it makes those patterns easier to recognize and less easy to obey.
Ajahn Amaro introduces the traditional framework of five Maras and places physical death among them, alongside defilement and mental formations. He presents the set as a way to see which kind of obstruction is operating during practice.

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