Transcript
[0:00] Hey everyone, this is Kai Dickens and
[0:02] you're listening to the Reincarnation
[0:03] Records from T T T Media.
[0:14] Welcome to episode 3. This is the
[0:16] episode that for me determines how
[0:17] seriously we can take everything that
[0:19] comes next. Like many of you, I'm sure,
[0:21] I came into this season skeptical. The
[0:23] part of my brain that loves science and
[0:25] logic still flinches at a lot of what
[0:27] we're talking about. And I think part of
[0:29] the problem is that I've always put
[0:30] questions about the afterlife in the
[0:32] category of faith. You could believe or
[0:34] not believe there's something after
[0:35] death, but how could you possibly
[0:37] research it, test it? And then I found a
[0:39] place that has spent almost 60 years
[0:41] trying to do exactly that. A place
[0:43] attempting to put science to something
[0:45] that I'd always assumed could only be
[0:47] taken on blind faith. And what I found
[0:50] there completely deconstructed my
[0:52] reality.
[0:53] >> We've been like circling the block.
[0:55] >> It's not in the campus?
[0:56] >> Last winter, my producer Cooper and I
[0:58] got on a plane and flew to
[1:00] Charlottesville. We rented a car and
[1:02] drove a few miles off the University of
[1:03] Virginia campus to a building that most
[1:06] people will never find on purpose, the
[1:08] Division of Perceptual Studies.
[1:10] >> Where is it Wait, did you just have a PO
[1:11] box?
[1:12] >> Yeah, I don't see it over there.
[1:14] >> You think it's this little building?
[1:15] >> It's got to be.
[1:18] >> All right, do you think we can park here
[1:19] legally?
[1:20] >> Yes.
[1:20] >> Okay.
[1:21] Is that him?
[1:23] Hey Phil, nice to meet you finally.
[1:25] >> Nice to meet you.
[1:26] >> The current co-lead of the Past Life
[1:27] Memory Research Program at DOPS, Dr.
[1:29] Philip Cazzolino, has met us outside and
[1:31] it is cold and windy.
[1:33] >> So, is this the university?
[1:34] >> We're off campus by a few miles. Uh we
[1:36] have a PO box that we often will give
[1:39] because
[1:40] this work sometimes attracts some
[1:42] attention and we we try to limit the
[1:44] number of people who know this exact
[1:45] address.
[1:46] >> Inside this quaint two-story building
[1:48] are filing cabinets, scores of them, and
[1:50] they're metal and gray and boring, the
[1:52] kind you'd walk past in any office in
[1:53] America and never think about again. But
[1:56] what's packed inside these is the
[1:57] largest collection of evidence anyone
[1:59] has ever gathered on a question I think
[2:01] we've all asked ourselves at some point.
[2:03] What happens after we die and does any
[2:05] part of us come back?
[2:07] >> These are all of the near-death
[2:09] experience files. Those filing cabinets
[2:12] in there are most of the past life
[2:14] memory files.
[2:15] >> So on paper, the Division of Perceptual
[2:17] Studies belongs to the Department of
[2:19] Psychiatry at the University of Virginia
[2:21] School of Medicine. In real life, it
[2:23] sits off by itself miles from campus and
[2:26] it has since the day it opened. And to
[2:28] understand why it exists at all, you
[2:30] have to go back to 1957 when a
[2:32] 38-year-old intellectual enters the
[2:34] university history.
[2:36] >> Ian Stevenson could be called the
[2:37] grandfather of reincarnation research.
[2:40] >> That's Dr. Jim Matlock, an
[2:41] anthropologist who knew Stevenson and
[2:43] has spent decades studying his work.
[2:45] >> He was a mid-career medical man who was
[2:48] hired by the University of Virginia as
[2:50] chairman of its Department of Psychiatry
[2:53] when he was not even 40.
[2:55] >> And this is Dr. Mary Ann Pelivanova. She
[2:58] co-leads the past life memory research
[2:59] program with Philip.
[3:01] >> Dr. Ian Stevenson was a very
[3:03] intellectual guy and he had his regular
[3:06] mainstream psychiatry career, nothing
[3:09] paranormal. He was very serious,
[3:12] extremely meticulous. He worked very,
[3:15] very hard, barely taking any vacation.
[3:19] >> There were some years here where he
[3:20] basically took Christmas off and that
[3:21] was pretty much it.
[3:23] >> And a year after he was hired to chair
[3:24] the Department of Psychiatry, an
[3:26] academic journal had a contest that
[3:28] would change not just the course of
[3:29] Stevenson's life, but the course of
[3:31] afterlife research forever. Here's Dr.
[3:33] Jim Matlock again.
[3:34] >> The Journal of the American Society for
[3:36] Psychical Research had a contest for the
[3:38] best paper on the subject of survival of
[3:41] death.
[3:42] >> And Ian Stevenson decided to enter the
[3:43] contest and focus his paper on
[3:45] reincarnation.
[3:46] >> He started then focusing his reading on
[3:48] finding cases and he found enough to
[3:51] whittle this down to 44 cases of
[3:55] children who spoke about having been
[3:58] somebody their parents did not know,
[4:00] that had made a minimum of six
[4:03] statements that were verified. And so he
[4:04] wrote this paper and won the prize. That
[4:07] brought him and the whole study of
[4:10] reincarnation to the attention of
[4:12] everybody.
[4:13] >> Including Chester Carlson, the
[4:15] millionaire inventor behind the Xerox
[4:16] machine. Here's Dr. Philip Kozolino
[4:19] again.
[4:19] >> Chester Carlson had a wife who had heard
[4:22] about some purported cases of
[4:23] reincarnation, and Carlson had a lot of
[4:26] money and he donated a million dollars
[4:28] to Ian Stevenson in the 1960s. Be about
[4:31] nine million dollars in today's dollars.
[4:33] >> Nine million dollars in today's money.
[4:36] Stevenson was given something almost
[4:38] nobody gets when they take on a
[4:39] controversial question, the funding, the
[4:41] freedom, and the time to actually go
[4:43] find out.
[4:45] >> And Carlson basically said, "Please go
[4:47] do this research. You're interested in
[4:49] it and I can fund it for you."
[4:50] >> So the university takes this huge sum of
[4:52] money from the Xerox guy, Chester
[4:53] Carlson, and then quite literally pushes
[4:55] the research out the door.
[4:57] >> Ian had to make a deal with the
[4:58] University of Virginia that he would
[5:00] leave the department, he wouldn't be the
[5:02] chair of the psychiatry department, and
[5:03] he could do this work. The university
[5:05] made him call his new division the
[5:07] division of parapsychology. That was the
[5:09] university's plan was to basically say,
[5:12] "You're going to go out on this limb,
[5:13] you're going to be there by yourself."
[5:14] Because that's you, not us.
[5:16] >> But eventually the Division of
[5:17] Parapsychology became the Division of
[5:19] Perceptual Studies, which is the name on
[5:21] the door today. And everyone here just
[5:23] calls it DOPS. And though Dr. Ian
[5:24] Stevenson died in 2007, he's still
[5:27] everywhere in the building. His
[5:28] portrait's on the wall, his
[5:29] handwriting's in the files, and his
[5:31] personal library lines the shelves.
[5:33] >> A lot of the books on this side are his
[5:35] private library that was donated to DOPS
[5:38] after his passing.
[5:40] And even just browsing the books, you
[5:42] can see how many different interests he
[5:45] had.
[5:45] >> You really can feel him all over this
[5:47] building. I mean, it just feels like all
[5:48] the books and the journals and the
[5:50] papers
[5:51] >> about this all the time. Even his
[5:53] picture over there, that was the
[5:55] portrait that they did when announcing
[5:58] this new division.
[5:59] >> And though Philip and Maryetta co-lead
[6:01] the division now, Philip's desk feels
[6:03] like it's being swallowed by this
[6:04] library.
[6:05] >> My office area is
[6:08] surrounded by his productivity and it is
[6:10] a constant daily reminder of how little
[6:12] I've actually done.
[6:14] >> The first thing I wanted to understand
[6:15] is how he actually did the work. How did
[6:17] this bookish psychiatrist earn the title
[6:19] of being the father of reincarnation
[6:21] research? Here's Dr. Jim Matlock again.
[6:23] >> Unlike what had been done before using
[6:26] regression or something like that, he
[6:27] actually went and talked to children and
[6:30] their families, children who
[6:32] spontaneously remembered previous lives.
[6:34] >> When he says regressions, he's meaning
[6:36] when adults remember a previous life
[6:38] through hypnosis or psychotherapy. And
[6:40] with regression, it's really hard to
[6:42] rule out the possibility that the
[6:43] memories were influenced by a lifetime
[6:45] of exposure to information.
[6:47] >> The children's spontaneous memories turn
[6:49] out to be much, much more reliable, much
[6:52] more accurate factually than the stuff
[6:55] that comes up through regression.
[6:57] >> What he discovered was so compelling in
[6:59] terms of the availability and
[7:01] fascinating features of these cases that
[7:03] he decided to dedicate the rest of his
[7:06] career just looking at purported claims
[7:09] of reincarnation or cases of the
[7:11] reincarnation type as we call them.
[7:14] >> Cases of the reincarnation type, CORT.
[7:17] >> The CORT CORT acronym comes from me
[7:20] indirectly.
[7:21] >> He coined that term and it's also very
[7:23] indicative of how he approached the
[7:25] phenomenon. He didn't say this is
[7:27] reincarnation, but it's something that
[7:29] looks like reincarnation.
[7:31] >> And that same caution shaped how
[7:32] Stevenson investigated CORT cases. He
[7:35] wasn't interested in how extraordinary a
[7:36] child's story sounded. He was looking
[7:38] for specifics, details that could
[7:40] actually be checked against a real
[7:42] person who has died. And here's Dr.
[7:44] Pelevanova again.
[7:45] >> The phenomenon shows up like this. A
[7:48] young child starts saying things like,
[7:51] "You were not my real mommy. You're not
[7:53] my real family. I used to have another
[7:55] family that I want to go back to." Or
[7:57] they might say things like, "When I was
[7:59] big, I used to do X and Y." Sometimes
[8:02] they would talk about having children or
[8:04] the jobs that they purportedly had and
[8:07] also how they died. And as you can
[8:10] imagine, if a parent doesn't dismiss
[8:12] that, if they take it seriously,
[8:14] especially if the child is a little bit
[8:16] distressed, they might wonder what's
[8:17] going on. So, they come to us, we do not
[8:20] solicit, they write us, and they report
[8:23] remarkably consistent characteristics
[8:26] that we're seeing in thousands of these
[8:29] children.
[8:30] >> What are those characteristics that you
[8:31] see over and over again?
[8:32] >> They talk about their profession, people
[8:34] in their lives. Often they talk about
[8:37] how they died, phobias that seem to be
[8:39] related to the purported past life. And
[8:41] so, when we hear of these accounts, we
[8:44] can't do much if the child is not saying
[8:46] anything specific, but if they're giving
[8:48] names, like names of who who they claim
[8:51] to have been, other people in their
[8:53] purported past life, where they lived,
[8:55] that allows us to start trying to verify
[8:58] this. And by verify, we mean is there a
[9:01] unique deceased person who matches what
[9:05] the child is saying? People would say,
[9:07] "Well, kids say the craziest things.
[9:09] It's all just fantasy." Which, okay,
[9:12] that's reasonable. Kids have an active
[9:14] imagination, but it is pretty remarkable
[9:17] if they say things without access to
[9:20] specialized knowledge that then end up
[9:23] matching the life and often death of a
[9:27] real person who existed.
[9:28] >> Here's Dr. Phil Cosolino again.
[9:30] >> The kids aren't confused about this. The
[9:32] kids will tell you, "No, when I was that
[9:34] person, I lived here." Even their
[9:36] parents will say, "We'll just be walking
[9:38] through the park and they'll say, 'I
[9:39] want to go on the slide.' Or Oh, you
[9:40] know, when I was in the car accident and
[9:42] died, oh look, a squirrel." Just out of
[9:44] the blue. And then 10 seconds later they
[9:45] were on to something else.
[9:47] >> Something I was quickly learning at Dobs
[9:48] was this was not a quick process.
[9:50] Children often started talking about
[9:52] these memories as early as 18 months,
[9:54] and the memories could continue for
[9:55] years, often being triggered by a new
[9:57] experience or a trip or even just
[9:59] learning more words.
[10:00] >> He would meet with the family multiple
[10:01] times, grandparents, aunts, uncles. He
[10:03] would talk to his teachers, neighbors.
[10:05] >> Eliminating any conventional explanation
[10:09] of this, like could the child have
[10:11] watched a movie or read a book or
[10:13] whatever else.
[10:14] >> He would attempt to identify, if at all
[10:17] possible, the deceased person, someone
[10:19] that actually lived that matches what
[10:21] the kid said. That's the goal.
[10:22] >> The really important thing to note is
[10:24] that Stevenson was investigating two
[10:26] lives at once. On one side, he
[10:28] documented everything the child and the
[10:30] family were reporting about the past
[10:32] life memories, and on the other,
[10:34] Stevenson and his colleagues were trying
[10:36] to find the deceased person the child
[10:38] was describing. And then he would
[10:40] compare the two of them.
[10:41] >> It's almost like a forensic style
[10:43] investigation where you're trying to dig
[10:45] into records of deceased people who
[10:47] match what the child is saying, from
[10:49] medical records, death certificates.
[10:52] >> He would even get local linguists come
[10:54] in and say, "Okay, if they use this word
[10:56] versus that word, what would that tell
[10:57] you?"
[10:58] >> Here's anthropologist Dr. Jim Tucker
[11:00] again.
[11:00] >> A lot of these kids will show the way to
[11:03] the former house. They'll show the way
[11:05] back there.
[11:06] >> And when the of a small child match with
[11:08] a real person's life who has died, the
[11:10] case is called solved.
[11:11] >> Solved is a term that we use when we are
[11:15] confident that we have found that
[11:17] deceased person that we believe matches
[11:20] the statement of the child.
[11:22] >> 70% of the cases in our database have
[11:24] been solved.
[11:25] >> Which sounds enormous, but Philip is
[11:27] quick to point out that 70% is not a
[11:29] success rate of all the cases out there.
[11:31] >> It's a conflated number because you take
[11:33] cases where you're more likely to
[11:35] identify them. And the goal always, as
[11:37] it is today, was to refute whatever
[11:39] claims were possible to refute, and to
[11:42] verify whatever could be verified.
[11:44] >> And not every case in the UVA archive is
[11:46] equally strong. In some of Dr.
[11:48] Stevenson's earlier investigations, he
[11:50] didn't hear about a child until well
[11:52] after the memories had begun. So, parts
[11:54] of those cases depended on families
[11:56] recalling what the child had originally
[11:58] said. Stevenson understood that was a
[11:59] limitation, and it's why the cases
[12:02] researchers consider the strongest are
[12:04] the ones where the child's statements
[12:05] were documented before anyone went
[12:07] looking for the deceased person that
[12:09] they might have been describing.
[12:10] >> The most important kind of case for us
[12:13] is ones where the parents or researcher
[12:15] somebody recorded the things that the
[12:18] child was saying and doing before
[12:21] verification so you can attempt. And
[12:23] when you have a record like that, then
[12:25] you don't need to worry about memories
[12:26] having changed, things being forgotten,
[12:29] or whatever. And if the parents don't
[12:30] know who the previous person was, how
[12:33] can they shape what the kids are saying?
[12:35] You've got that record.
[12:37] >> And one of the reasons Stevenson's
[12:38] research is incredibly valuable today is
[12:41] that many of his cases were incredibly
[12:42] isolated. Stevenson traveled all over
[12:44] the world to investigate children in
[12:46] remote communities, starting in the
[12:47] 1960s. And when he got there, he was
[12:49] often traveling by foot or by donkey or
[12:52] by cart, and in places with little
[12:54] access to landline phones or outside
[12:56] information. And from an evidentiary
[12:58] standpoint, that isolation matters
[13:00] because there were simply fewer
[13:01] conventional ways for a child or family
[13:04] to learn detailed information about a
[13:05] stranger who died miles away, sometimes
[13:08] countries away. Today, researchers have
[13:10] a problem Stevenson didn't encounter
[13:11] until late in his life, the internet.
[13:14] It's now much easier to find a deceased
[13:16] person that the child might be
[13:17] describing, and that makes it way harder
[13:19] to rule out the possibility that the
[13:20] child or the family could have found
[13:22] information about this deceased person
[13:24] on their own, which makes researchers
[13:26] look for something else, what they call
[13:28] private knowledge.
[13:29] >> Private knowledge, a kid expressing
[13:31] something that no one else could know or
[13:32] should know.
[13:34] And the private knowledge thing is
[13:35] really meaningful because wow, if you
[13:37] can verify that there is some hidden
[13:39] money in that tree trunk like the kid
[13:42] said that no one knew about, how would
[13:44] anyone have known that? How could that
[13:45] kid have known it? So that's why any
[13:47] kind of private knowledge is really
[13:48] meaningful.
[13:48] >> And that can take different forms,
[13:50] private family information, spontaneous
[13:52] recognition of people or places,
[13:54] controlled photo tests designed to see
[13:56] whether a child can identify someone
[13:57] significant in the deceased person's
[13:59] life, and we'll get to all of that
[14:00] shortly. For me, at this point on our
[14:02] rapid tour of the day, I had a handle on
[14:04] what could make one case stronger than
[14:05] another, but what I wanted to understand
[14:08] was what the evidence actually looked
[14:09] like up close. That's coming up after
[14:11] this break.
[14:17] Welcome back to the Reincarnation
[14:19] Records. So Philip, can we go to the
[14:21] conference room and look at a case?
[14:22] >> Mhm, yeah.
[14:23] >> We're making our way to the conference
[14:24] room now, and on the way we walk past a
[14:26] few display cases.
[14:27] >> The display cases are from the Ian era
[14:30] of investigations around the world.
[14:32] There are some gruesome photos of
[14:34] children with missing limbs, missing
[14:37] digits, birthmarks and defects, and a
[14:40] lot of weaponry, machetes, swords,
[14:42] knives, spears on the wall, and these
[14:45] are documented cases that he's published
[14:47] on on the connection between these past
[14:49] life memory claims of children and the
[14:51] biological connection to that past life
[14:54] that seemed to match. So how many
[14:56] birthmarks does this child have? How
[14:58] many defects? Do the birthmarks or
[14:59] defects correspond to the fatal wound of
[15:01] the past person?
[15:02] >> We're going to come back to these
[15:03] display cabinets later because on
[15:05] display next to them are books [music]
[15:07] totaling thousands of pages that
[15:09] Stevenson wrote on birthmarks and birth
[15:12] defects and how they tie into past life
[15:14] memories. And it's clear to me this is
[15:15] not some strange footnote in his
[15:17] research. It's an entire body of work,
[15:19] and we will return to it because it
[15:21] deserves more time. It deserves an
[15:23] entire episode.
[15:24] >> So, here's what we have.
[15:25] >> So, now we're walking into the
[15:26] conference room where Marietta and
[15:28] Philip have pulled out various cases
[15:29] from their trove of filing cabinets. And
[15:32] Philip puts one on the table.
[15:33] >> This is all one case. So, some of the
[15:36] files will be incredibly thin.
[15:38] >> But, what type of papers are in there? I
[15:39] mean, it is like 200 papers.
[15:41] >> Yeah, I mean, it will be everything from
[15:43] medical reports to interview transcripts
[15:45] to It just depends how interesting the
[15:47] case was and how many investigators were
[15:49] involved.
[15:49] >> Yeah.
[15:49] >> This is a case of a young girl named
[15:51] Disna. This is from 1971.
[15:54] >> The huge file folder is filled with
[15:56] handwritten notes and pictures, maps,
[15:58] interviews. And then he pulls out
[16:00] something that looks like a chart or
[16:01] table.
[16:02] >> Usually these files start with these
[16:04] coding forms.
[16:05] >> So, imagine a giant spreadsheet with
[16:07] columns for everything, names, dates,
[16:09] behaviors, phobias, birthmarks,
[16:11] comments, totaling over 200 variables
[16:13] that researchers look into for every
[16:15] case.
[16:16] >> Almost always you're going to find this,
[16:18] the tabled statements and recognitions,
[16:22] behaviors of the child under
[16:25] investigation. So, the person In this
[16:27] case, we're looking at Disna. She
[16:29] started talking early, about 2 and 1/2,
[16:31] 3. The first thing she started talking
[16:33] about was, "I'm not from here." That she
[16:35] lived in this village, Witoa. Had a son,
[16:37] Mahataya. Son had a woman, quote in
[16:41] quotes, "Place in river where she used
[16:43] to bathe. Drum owned by previous
[16:46] personality."
[16:47] >> Every possible detail is tracked in this
[16:49] document.
[16:49] >> what's next to that is just like, all
[16:51] right, who was the informant and
[16:52] reference for that? And where in this
[16:54] file would you find that? And then if
[16:56] there's a verification, who did the
[16:58] verification and where would you find
[17:00] that? And then the final column is
[17:02] comments.
[17:03] >> Okay, and then did she say the name of
[17:04] the person she thought she was?
[17:05] >> Uh Babona or Babonona is the name that
[17:09] she eventually started coming up with.
[17:11] >> Okay, so what else?
[17:12] >> Here's a good one. So, this child was
[17:13] saying, "I lived alone as this past
[17:15] person." And there are some
[17:17] verifications for that. And then the
[17:19] note says the past person did not live
[17:21] alone before she died, but did live
[17:24] alone for 5 years up to 6 months before
[17:27] she died.
[17:27] >> Okay, so that statement wasn't wrong,
[17:29] but it wasn't like a match either. Did
[17:31] Stevenson note that anywhere?
[17:32] >> Yes. So, here's here are some
[17:35] handwritten notes.
[17:36] >> And it turns out Stevenson did. He noted
[17:38] the ambiguity as well as the flat-out
[17:40] misses when they occurred.
[17:41] >> When you look at his handwritten notes,
[17:42] I often wonder if anyone ever asked him
[17:44] maybe maybe try your other hand?
[17:46] >> It's just so bad.
[17:48] >> Okay, so what's that? It's like a
[17:49] drawing of a kitchen?
[17:50] >> So, this is interesting because this is
[17:52] a case where Disna had claimed that as
[17:55] this past person, she had buried
[17:58] treasure in the hearth in a cigarette
[18:00] tin.
[18:01] >> And this wasn't unique to Disna.
[18:03] Stevenson encountered this enough times
[18:05] that he gave the phenomenon its own
[18:06] name.
[18:07] >> He coined this phrase hidden treasure.
[18:09] There are select number of cases in our
[18:11] database where the child claimed that
[18:13] they had hidden treasure, valuables in
[18:16] their past life, but no one knew about
[18:17] it. And some of those cases people
[18:19] discovered stuff when they didn't know
[18:21] it was there, which is really
[18:22] fascinating.
[18:23] >> And I think it's important to put the
[18:24] word treasure in context because
[18:26] treasure is relative.
[18:27] >> When I went through a number of the
[18:29] files of these claims, it was trinkets,
[18:32] something shiny, money worth potentially
[18:34] today's dollars of 70 cents.
[18:37] >> And though that will sound like nothing
[18:38] to most of our listeners, 70 cents in
[18:40] 1960 Ceylon could represent a day's
[18:42] wages for a laborer. Here's
[18:44] anthropologist Dr. Jamison again.
[18:46] >> You know, back in the '60s in rural
[18:48] areas in Asia, there weren't banks or
[18:50] anything. And so, valuables were hidden,
[18:53] right? In various places. And if people
[18:56] die without telling anyone where those
[18:59] valuables are, then this is a problem
[19:03] we call unfinished business.
[19:06] >> So, back to Disna because she's one of
[19:07] the kids with a case in these metal
[19:09] filing cabinets who talked about burying
[19:11] money in a past life with such detail
[19:13] that investigators could draw a picture
[19:14] of it.
[19:16] >> Okay, so here's this kitchen and here's
[19:18] the hearth that was drawn based on
[19:20] Disna's description. And basically you'd
[19:22] expect to find the tin somewhere in
[19:24] here.
[19:25] >> And this little girl, Disna, had never
[19:26] stepped foot in this house or even the
[19:28] village where she claimed the house
[19:29] stood. And in Disna's case, her
[19:31] recollections of buried money were
[19:33] correct.
[19:33] >> Stevenson verified that the past
[19:36] personality's surviving family had found
[19:39] that cigarette tin under a grinding
[19:41] stone in the kitchen. It was basically
[19:44] next to or under the hearth. And the
[19:46] money was not in the tin, but it was
[19:47] there buried as well.
[19:49] >> Okay, and then what's the this?
[19:50] >> So these are things that basically they
[19:52] would then take to the past person's
[19:54] family and say, "Well, these are things
[19:55] that we've been told. Did your
[19:58] relative who died, did they have a son?
[20:01] Did they own a drum?"
[20:02] >> And in this case, they did find a match.
[20:04] >> Bona, it turns out that is either the
[20:06] official name or what they called the
[20:08] past person.
[20:09] >> And the village Disna talked about,
[20:10] Widowa, was a real place as well. It was
[20:13] about 3 mi away and Disna had never been
[20:16] there. And I want to get to the moment
[20:17] where Disna is taken to her old village,
[20:19] but first Marietta, who's walked back
[20:21] into the room, describes the different
[20:23] types of recognition tests that we might
[20:25] find in these files.
[20:26] >> I want to differentiate here between
[20:29] recognitions that just happened in the
[20:31] environment, like where the kid led to
[20:33] that village and said, "Hey, this was my
[20:35] mom or this was my murder." That is what
[20:38] we would call an uncontrolled
[20:41] recognition. So it just happens
[20:42] naturally in the environment as the
[20:44] child is interacting in it. And then
[20:47] later on, especially in the American
[20:49] cases, we started using what we call
[20:51] controlled recognitions. So this is
[20:53] specifically once that previous person
[20:56] is identified, then the investigator can
[20:59] create a stimuli set where one picture
[21:02] is a picture of something real from the
[21:05] previous person's life, say the school
[21:07] that they went to, and then use a a few
[21:10] other pictures as foils, so something
[21:12] that looks like the actual target for
[21:15] recognition, but is not that. And then
[21:18] they would present it to the child and
[21:20] see if one of the pictures is familiar
[21:23] or not. So that I just want to make this
[21:26] differentiation between controlled and
[21:28] uncontrolled. Yeah.
[21:29] >> So noted in Disney's file, there was an
[21:31] uncontrolled recognition that happened
[21:33] when she was very little and her family
[21:35] took her to Wedewa, the village where
[21:37] she claimed she lived and died in her
[21:38] past life.
[21:39] >> They didn't know the family at all and
[21:41] there's many pages here where they
[21:43] walked through the town and it they say
[21:45] very clearly Disney walked past a number
[21:46] of homes that any one of them could have
[21:48] been the right home and went to the home
[21:51] that was the correct home of the past
[21:52] personality and didn't [music] walk up
[21:54] to the front door, but walked around the
[21:57] side and everyone was looking and there
[21:59] was a unseen from the road door and she
[22:02] walked right in that door.
[22:03] >> Jeez, that's so wild.
[22:05] >> And the people who live there who were
[22:06] part of the past person's family said,
[22:08] "Yeah, that's the door that that past
[22:09] person would have walked in. They
[22:10] wouldn't she would never have walked in
[22:12] the front door."
[22:13] >> So that was one case, one child and we
[22:15] just went through like a tenth of it.
[22:18] But what's mind-boggling is Stevenson
[22:19] and the researchers who followed him did
[22:21] this thousands of times and all those
[22:24] interviews, medical records, maps,
[22:26] recognitions, hits, misses, behaviors,
[22:28] even tiny details like that cigarette
[22:30] tin, eventually had to be organized in a
[22:32] way that researchers could compare one
[22:34] case to another. And there's literally a
[22:36] rule book for how to do it and Dr. Mary
[22:38] had a Pelivanova pulls it out.
[22:40] >> We have this coding manual. It's
[22:42] literally this thick.
[22:44] >> There are 208 variables in our database.
[22:47] >> He developed all of these criteria and
[22:49] applied them to the documentation of
[22:52] thousands of these cases.
[22:54] >> And this is where all those filing
[22:55] cabinets that we saw on the way in
[22:57] become something much bigger because the
[22:59] team at DOPS is digitizing the archive,
[23:01] turning decades of case files into
[23:03] searchable data.
[23:04] >> It's an electronic database that
[23:07] currently has 2,254
[23:11] cases. These are the cases that are
[23:14] considered solid enough and
[23:17] representative enough of this phenomenon
[23:19] to be entered in the database.
[23:21] >> So, just to put this in perspective, you
[23:23] know, Stevenson hadn't spent his career
[23:25] just collecting a handful of
[23:26] extraordinary stories. He and those who
[23:28] followed after him investigated
[23:30] thousands of children across countries
[23:32] and cultures, religions, and decades.
[23:35] And when you collect that many cases and
[23:36] they're all coded with the same 200-plus
[23:38] variables, you can start asking much
[23:40] more interesting questions. Like, does
[23:42] the data show any patterns? And it turns
[23:44] out it does. So, for starters, is the
[23:47] type of lives these kids remember
[23:48] having.
[23:49] >> It's overwhelmingly lives of normal
[23:52] people. It's not like the trope someone
[23:55] remembers being Cleopatra or Napoleon.
[23:58] >> But, while the lives they remember are
[24:00] often ordinary, the ways they end are
[24:03] not.
[24:03] >> 61%
[24:05] of our children can tell you how they
[24:08] think they died in this past life. And
[24:09] of those, 75% described a violent
[24:12] traumatic death in their past life.
[24:14] >> A traumatic death. And we don't know why
[24:18] that is, but we also hypothesize that
[24:20] maybe some aspect of this trauma from
[24:24] this purported past life can transfer to
[24:27] this current life and make the child act
[24:30] traumatized even if they haven't had
[24:32] traumatic exposure.
[24:33] >> That's so interesting, cuz you know,
[24:35] some of the cases we're already looking
[24:36] at, you know, these boys have phobias
[24:38] connected to their traumatic death.
[24:40] Actually, that makes me wonder
[24:41] something. Do boys report past lives
[24:43] more often?
[24:44] >> There's more boys than girls talking
[24:46] about past life memories. I think the
[24:48] percentage is something like 60 to 40 or
[24:51] 65 to 35. It is fairly imbalanced.
[24:55] >> Wow.
[24:55] >> In the database, most children, when
[24:58] they talk about a past life, they talk
[25:00] about a life of the same sex, which is
[25:02] already pretty fascinating. In a small
[25:05] percentage of cases, I think it's about
[25:06] 10%, the children talk about a life of
[25:09] the opposite sex.
[25:10] >> So, if most children are remembering a
[25:12] past life of the same sex, you know, why
[25:14] would boys be showing up more in the
[25:16] data than girls?
[25:17] >> There's possibly a cultural element that
[25:20] boys are being listened to more and that
[25:22] their claims are being taken more
[25:25] seriously than girls' claims. That may
[25:28] be a factor, but the other interesting
[25:30] element that a lot of these cases are
[25:32] traumatic deaths. Men in general are
[25:35] more likely to die of unnatural or
[25:38] violent accidents. It's interesting. And
[25:41] in that database
[25:42] >> And then she brought up a pattern,
[25:44] something they've measured that isn't
[25:45] something I would have ever thought to
[25:47] even ask about. How much time passed
[25:49] between the last person's death and the
[25:51] new child's birth. And obviously, they
[25:53] can only figure that out with
[25:54] quote-unquote solved cases where they
[25:56] know the dates of both. But at DOPS,
[25:58] they have a name for this.
[25:59] >> The intermission period, the time
[26:01] between a child's claims of dying and
[26:04] when they were born.
[26:05] >> When the child talks about a life that
[26:08] ended traumatically, the intermission
[26:10] period is shorter.
[26:12] >> We just got a paper published in the
[26:14] psychology of consciousness looking at
[26:16] how unexpectedness of dying in the
[26:19] purported deceased person predicts a
[26:22] significantly faster
[26:25] intermission period. So, Dr. Sadighi,
[26:28] she saw something in the data.
[26:29] >> Dr. Saeeda Sadighi is one of the
[26:31] post-doc researchers at DOPS, and she'll
[26:33] be included in a future episode when we
[26:35] do a deep dive into the intermission
[26:36] period. But here's a quick bite of her
[26:38] explaining her findings.
[26:39] >> For the most unexpected, like immediate
[26:42] death, the intermission time is 12
[26:44] months. The most expected, which means
[26:48] the person was ill and they expected it
[26:50] to happen, the median intermission time
[26:52] is 21 months.
[26:54] >> The median intermission time is 21
[26:56] months when a death is expected, and
[26:58] it's 12 months when it isn't. Trauma
[27:00] seems to speed something up.
[27:02] >> There seems to be some sort of urgency
[27:05] in these past lives to manifest quicker
[27:10] when it's trauma versus not.
[27:12] >> I want to pause here because when I was
[27:14] standing in that room, this part of our
[27:15] conversation really affected me and not
[27:17] scientifically, but spiritually.
[27:20] Because first off, if there really is an
[27:22] intermission period, where are we going?
[27:24] Is it the same place people go when they
[27:26] explain a near-death experience? Is it
[27:28] heaven? Is it somewhere else? And it
[27:31] comes up in almost every culture.
[27:33] And the other thing about this
[27:34] intermission period is it kind of made
[27:36] reincarnation feel more just to me.
[27:39] Because if you're 5 years old and your
[27:41] life ends and you're robbed from all the
[27:43] experiences that would give you a full
[27:45] and round life, there's something
[27:47] comforting to me about the possibility
[27:49] you get another turn. And it makes sense
[27:51] you'd go back quicker. Like if you're
[27:53] playing a video game and someone kills
[27:55] off your character 5 minutes into the
[27:57] game, you're like, "Hell yeah, I'm
[27:58] hitting restart." But if you spend hours
[28:01] going through all the levels and going
[28:02] through the entire game and conquering
[28:04] it, you know, you might not want to play
[28:06] right away. I for one would want to
[28:07] chill for a bit. I wouldn't want to do
[28:08] the whole thing again. So, all this
[28:11] intermission period stuff made
[28:12] reincarnation feel a little less like
[28:14] some endless cycle that you're trapped
[28:15] in and something that we might actually
[28:17] have agency and even free will over. So,
[28:20] whoo.
[28:21] But for right now, let's go back to the
[28:23] data because buried among the 200-plus
[28:25] variables are some wild things that
[28:27] happen less often, but are much harder
[28:29] to know how to explain or what to do
[28:30] with. And one of them is xenoglossy.
[28:32] >> So, xenoglossy is speaking a language
[28:36] that you have no natural explanation for
[28:39] understanding or being able to speak.
[28:40] You've never been exposed to this
[28:42] language, never had training in it, and
[28:44] yet somehow you're speaking it.
[28:45] >> And this is not speaking in tongues.
[28:47] Xenoglossy means an actual identified
[28:49] language. And in their database, there
[28:51] are 40 cases of young kids speaking a
[28:54] language they've never been taught. And
[28:56] the kids in these cases could just be
[28:57] using random words or full-on sentences.
[29:00] >> There was an interesting case where
[29:03] there was a boy who claimed to be
[29:05] Japanese in his past life. And anytime
[29:08] the boy fell, like at the park or at
[29:09] home, would say a word that they didn't
[29:12] understand. And it turns out they found
[29:14] out that he was saying the Japanese word
[29:18] for ouch. And the other thing this one
[29:20] boy did that was really interesting. So,
[29:22] the parents, they were American and they
[29:24] would say sukiyaki, that Japanese food,
[29:27] sukiyaki. But apparently that's not how
[29:29] you say it in Japanese. You say
[29:30] sukiyaki.
[29:32] And the kid corrected their
[29:33] pronunciation as to how you say that,
[29:36] which is remarkable to me because who in
[29:37] the world would know that?
[29:38] >> Okay, so these words were happening that
[29:40] weren't in anywhere in the world that
[29:43] you know. But was he also saying that he
[29:44] used to live in Japan or
[29:46] >> Yeah, his past life memories were in
[29:47] from Japan.
[29:48] >> And sometimes kids can even carry on a
[29:50] conversation in a language they've never
[29:52] been taught.
[29:53] >> These Burmese twin girls were, according
[29:56] to their parents, speaking to each other
[29:58] responsively in Japanese.
[30:00] >> So, even though this is another Japanese
[30:02] case, it's a completely different one,
[30:04] right? Like the first little boy we just
[30:05] talked about, he was born into American
[30:07] family.
[30:08] >> Yeah.
[30:08] >> But it's not like Japanese shows up more
[30:10] often than any other language when it
[30:11] comes to xenoglossy.
[30:12] >> No.
[30:12] >> Okay.
[30:13] >> Okay, good.
[30:13] >> Yeah.
[30:13] >> So, these Burmese twins, they both were
[30:17] expressing shared memories of having
[30:20] lived as Japanese brothers who died on
[30:23] the same battlefield at the same moment
[30:25] in World War II. Ian was able to verify
[30:27] later that there was actually British
[30:29] bombing going on at that point in that
[30:32] part of the world where they had claimed
[30:33] they died. Ian went as far as to find
[30:35] like the war evidence.
[30:36] >> And and the lives they recalled were
[30:38] from where?
[30:39] >> Japan.
[30:39] >> And did someone verify that they were
[30:41] actually speaking Japanese?
[30:42] >> Yeah, exactly. They had people come in
[30:44] and say, "Yeah, the words they were
[30:45] using is Japanese." Now, again, these
[30:47] are young children.
[30:48] >> And they never been taught Japanese.
[30:49] >> No. There are reports, and you see them
[30:50] in the file. And once they were speaking
[30:53] Burmese, the parents would say, "We
[30:55] would always be asked, 'Where are they
[30:56] originally from?'" because they're
[30:58] speaking with like an accent, like
[31:00] they're not from here originally. So,
[31:02] that's the phenomena. Those are some of
[31:04] the examples of the cases that we had
[31:05] over 40.
[31:06] >> And here's another detail that makes
[31:07] those 40 cases a little harder to shrug
[31:09] off.
[31:10] The language wasn't random.
[31:12] >> Every one of the 40 cases, whatever the
[31:14] language was, connected to where they
[31:16] were from in their alleged past life.
[31:18] >> And this is where the cases get harder
[31:20] to think of as children simply knowing
[31:22] unusual information. Because sometimes
[31:24] what seems to carry over isn't a fact at
[31:27] all. It's something deeply personal,
[31:29] like a phobia or skill, a way of
[31:31] behaving, even a vice.
[31:33] >> Preferences for food, for music, hobbies
[31:36] like guitar, even negative preferences.
[31:40] We've had children who, when they were
[31:41] very young, wanted cigarettes, asked
[31:43] their parents for cigarettes. All of
[31:45] this because, apparently, they're saying
[31:48] these were things that mattered to them
[31:49] in this past life that they lived.
[31:51] There's this famous story of a boy where
[31:54] he really liked hats, but like fedora
[31:56] style hats. And we have in our database
[31:58] the ability to differentiate, is this
[32:00] just a unique little kid who's got a
[32:02] funny style of clothing, or is this
[32:03] style clothing specifically directly
[32:05] verified to have been linked to the way
[32:08] that past person dressed?
[32:10] >> So, it's not just that the children are
[32:11] remembering facts about a person. Pieces
[32:14] of that personality are showing up
[32:16] inside of them. It's not just, you know,
[32:18] I know things about this person. It's,
[32:21] "This was me."
[32:22] >> Not every strong case has a xenoglossy.
[32:24] Not every strong case has birthmarks or
[32:26] phobias. But I'm starting to think every
[32:28] strong case has to have that
[32:30] psychological core identity connection.
[32:33] And then it can manifest physically,
[32:34] biologically, in numerous ways. It could
[32:37] be a language. it could be a birthmark,
[32:39] it could be something else, a phobia.
[32:41] The other stuff is important, but it
[32:42] comes secondary to that core
[32:44] continuation of something.
[32:46] >> And if you think all of that strange,
[32:48] there's another pattern in these files
[32:49] that for me moves into a much more
[32:51] unexplained space. That's coming up
[32:53] after this break.
[32:58] Welcome back to the Reincarnation
[33:00] Records. There's another pattern in
[33:01] these files that for me moves into a
[33:03] much more unexplained space. Because
[33:05] sometimes the first nod to reincarnation
[33:08] doesn't come from the child at all. It
[33:10] comes in a dream visitation from what
[33:12] seems like a soul or consciousness to
[33:15] often a parent who's expecting a baby or
[33:18] a parent who's grieving the loss of
[33:19] someone who's died. And it's not
[33:21] necessarily always parents. Here's
[33:22] Philip.
[33:23] >> Our variable in the database covers both
[33:25] announcing dreams and departing dreams.
[33:28] So, departing dreams are look for me in
[33:31] this other place cuz I'm going to come
[33:33] back for you in this other body. Right?
[33:35] They mostly occur after the death before
[33:38] the claimed rebirth. Announcing dreams
[33:40] are a mother or even a father in their
[33:43] dreams being told I'm coming to you.
[33:45] >> Come on. So, announcing dreams commonly
[33:48] happen when parents who are expecting a
[33:50] baby are visited by the consciousness or
[33:53] soul of this incoming life to say, "Hey,
[33:55] I'm on my way. I chose you." And the
[33:57] departing dreams are when the
[34:00] consciousness of someone who's died come
[34:02] to their grieving loved ones and say,
[34:04] "Hey, I'm going to be reborn in Akron,
[34:06] Ohio. Find me there."
[34:07] >> This is crazy. How often does the
[34:08] annunciation dreams happen?
[34:11] Like is that common?
[34:11] >> know. Philip, do you have the
[34:13] the database pulled up?
[34:15] >> We just have announcing departing
[34:17] numbers, and we can get you both
[34:19] frequencies and what percentage of our
[34:21] database had some or more.
[34:22] >> It's okay. You can send it to me later.
[34:23] >> Yeah, I will.
[34:24] >> We asked to see an actual case, and Mary
[34:26] at a pulled a file from Turkey.
[34:27] >> Okay, so this is the case of Suleyman
[34:30] Çapar. It is a Turkish case. So,
[34:35] briefly, Sulaiman was born in 1966.
[34:40] While his mother was pregnant with him,
[34:42] she had this dream where a man came to
[34:45] her on horseback, and he said, "I was
[34:49] killed with a blow to the head with a
[34:52] shovel, and I want to stay with you in
[34:55] particular, and I don't want to go to
[34:56] anyone else." And when he was born, his
[34:59] family noticed that he had this
[35:00] birthmark in the back of his head, this
[35:03] little area that was depressed. It was
[35:06] just there from the moment that he was
[35:07] born. As soon as the child starts
[35:09] speaking, one of the very first things
[35:11] he said was that he wanted to go to the
[35:14] stream, and that his home was by the
[35:17] stream. When he started talking a bit
[35:20] more, he started talking about this past
[35:22] life where he was a miller in a
[35:25] neighboring village, and he had gotten
[35:28] himself into some kind of fight with a
[35:31] customer, and the customer had killed
[35:33] him. He kept talking about his other
[35:35] life, so at some point the mom decided
[35:38] to let him take her to the stream and
[35:40] just let him explore whatever he was
[35:42] talking about. So, he led the way to a
[35:46] neighboring village called Ekber, and
[35:49] there he led her to a mill on the
[35:52] stream. And he also pointed to a house
[35:54] that he said, "This used to be my
[35:56] house."
[35:56] >> Identifying the village, the house, the
[35:58] mill, the stream, it's all in the file,
[36:00] and most of those statements happened
[36:01] around the age of two.
[36:02] >> And his second visit was when he was two
[36:05] and a half, he met the mother of that
[36:08] presumed previous personality, the man
[36:10] who was killed.
[36:11] >> Wait, accidentally? Like, did she he
[36:13] what, just run into her on the road?
[36:14] >> Yeah, and a lot of these, once you go to
[36:17] the village, like, a lot of people seem
[36:18] to be hanging outside or in the field.
[36:21] So, as you're walking about the village,
[36:23] you can find people. Yeah.
[36:25] >> And after identifying the mill where the
[36:26] boy said he used to work, his former
[36:28] house, and the mother from his past
[36:30] life, they found the name of the man who
[36:32] matched and who was killed.
[36:33] >> Mehmet Bekler is the name of the
[36:36] deceased individual, and he was killed a
[36:39] few years before Süleyman was born. One
[36:42] day, he was just at the mill doing his
[36:44] normal work, and this other guy comes by
[36:48] with his wheat, and there's a line of
[36:50] customers waiting, and this guy insists
[36:54] to have his wheat milled first because
[36:56] his family was hungry. And so, it seemed
[36:59] like he was pushy, and then Mehmet
[37:02] Bekler, the miller, told him, "No, you
[37:04] have to wait in line. All of these
[37:06] people were here before you. I can't
[37:08] just take you first." And then this
[37:10] fight happened, and this other guy hit
[37:13] him on the head with a shovel. Dr.
[37:15] Stevenson was able to consult the court
[37:17] proceedings and also the autopsy of
[37:20] Mehmet Bekler. So, now, in terms of
[37:23] statements that the child made that were
[37:26] verified,
[37:27] >> And these were statements said by the
[37:28] boy prior to them finding Mehmet, the
[37:30] man who was killed.
[37:31] >> "I had a family, I had a wife, I had two
[37:35] sons and a daughter," which was exactly
[37:37] the number of children and their sexes
[37:39] that Mehmet had. He talked about having
[37:42] a father who took a second wife, which
[37:45] at the time was illegal in Turkey. He
[37:47] talked about having a mill, and then he
[37:49] also said a lot of specific things about
[37:51] how Mehmet Bekler was killed.
[37:54] >> Geez. Was he familiar with the court
[37:55] documents when he said that, or was that
[37:57] just kind of out of the blue?
[37:58] >> No, these court documents were only
[38:00] accessible, and they're in the file, to
[38:03] Ian Stevenson through his local
[38:05] informants.
[38:06] He said he was hit on the head. Now,
[38:09] Süleyman didn't specifically talk about
[38:11] the shovel. The shovel only came through
[38:13] in that announcing dream.
[38:15] >> Wow.
[38:16] >> So, the only mention of the shovel from
[38:18] the family was from the dream his mother
[38:20] had before he was born.
[38:22] And Stevenson was able to verify the
[38:24] shovel was the murder weapon when he
[38:26] received the court case, something the
[38:28] family did not have access to.
[38:29] >> Very interesting.
[38:31] >> Yeah, but I think we covered so much.
[38:33] I'm so glad we were able to get you sit
[38:34] down again.
[38:35] >> I'm grateful, too, cuz I just felt like
[38:37] there was a lot of stuff.
[38:38] >> By the end of the first day, we'd gone
[38:39] through so much material I could barely
[38:41] hold all of it in my head, and I was
[38:43] exhausted.
[38:44] >> Gosh, this has been a lot, and I mean, I
[38:47] have to be honest, like I actually don't
[38:48] feel well. Like I feel kind of sick. And
[38:51] like I don't know
[38:53] if I'm just overwhelmed. I just feel
[38:55] really
[38:56] I don't know.
[38:57] >> If we accept that this is real, is it a
[39:00] glitch? Most people, if they lived a
[39:02] past life, they don't seem to remember.
[39:04] Is it by design that you don't remember?
[39:07] This is where we get into the
[39:08] metaphysical stuff. Many people actually
[39:10] speculate that we're meant to forget.
[39:12] You get a clean slate, but why do some
[39:15] people and some kids remember? Is it
[39:17] serving a purpose? And maybe it is. We
[39:19] do talk a little bit about what we would
[39:21] call the unfinished business hypothesis,
[39:24] but we don't have the empirical data
[39:26] yet.
[39:27] >> Let's pretend for a second this is
[39:28] reincarnation. I don't think it's
[39:30] supposed to work this way, right? Like I
[39:31] don't think a 3-year-old is supposed to
[39:33] be having nightmares about how they died
[39:35] in a fiery plane crash.
[39:37] But if it's what's happening, it could
[39:39] be that the emotion and the trauma of
[39:41] that past life has created a kind of a
[39:44] glitch in the process, in the system,
[39:46] and it's not allowed these children to
[39:50] start over in a fresh new way. If
[39:52] reincarnation is real, I don't think
[39:54] we're supposed to remember.
[39:55] >> Even with all of the work that has been
[39:57] done in more than six decades, we're
[40:00] still, in many ways, it just still seems
[40:02] like we're scratching the surface.
[40:06] >> I came to UVA specifically asking
[40:09] whether something as slippery as
[40:10] reincarnation could really be
[40:12] investigated scientifically. And by the
[40:14] end, I was not asking that anymore.
[40:16] Because even if you don't call it
[40:17] reincarnation, the children in these
[40:19] files appear to know things they should
[40:20] have no way of knowing. So now the
[40:22] question is much harder. What is
[40:24] actually happening? Because access to
[40:26] the memories of a dead person might not
[40:27] necessarily mean that you were that
[40:29] person.
[40:30] >> There is this notion of the Akashic
[40:31] record.
[40:32] >> The Akashic record is basically the idea
[40:34] that all the details and specifics of
[40:36] every life to ever live are stored in
[40:38] like an informational field.
[40:40] >> Sometimes what other people call it
[40:41] super psi, which is just that maybe
[40:43] these kids just have access to some
[40:46] remnant, some consciousness that was
[40:48] here and they're just psychically
[40:50] telling the memory of it. Which by the
[40:53] way would be freaking remarkable if
[40:54] that's true. But it wouldn't have to be
[40:56] reincarnation.
[40:57] >> Which sounds like a conservative
[40:59] explanation until you realize it still
[41:01] breaks everything we currently
[41:02] understand about memory and the brain.
[41:04] >> This should not be possible if this
[41:06] deceased person's brain has died, their
[41:09] memories have died with them. So how is
[41:12] this kid apparently picking up on the
[41:15] memories of that deceased person? So
[41:17] that already is anomalous in the context
[41:20] of current neuroscientific understanding
[41:22] of memory and the mind and
[41:24] consciousness.
[41:25] >> So even though I tried entertaining that
[41:26] possibility, that there's super psi or
[41:28] this ability to psychically download
[41:30] information about someone else's life,
[41:32] there's something in these cases that
[41:34] becomes much harder to explain as simply
[41:36] accessing someone else's memories. In
[41:39] more than a third of the solved cases at
[41:41] Docs,
[41:43] the children have a birthmark or birth
[41:45] defect that matches an injury or fatal
[41:47] wound of the past life the child is
[41:49] remembering.
[41:50] >> The biological aspect of it, the missing
[41:52] limbs, the birth defects that correspond
[41:54] to validated postmortem reports and
[41:56] autopsy reports of the alleged person
[41:58] that the child claims they were.
[42:00] I don't know if the Akashic record
[42:01] explains that. I don't quite understand
[42:04] what does.
[42:05] >> And that brings me back to the glass
[42:06] display cabinets on the other side of
[42:08] the room, the ones with the photographs
[42:10] and the weapons.
[42:11] >> This boy was born without a right ear,
[42:14] but with memories of the life of a man
[42:16] who was shot in the head.
[42:17] >> Which leaves a question that memory
[42:19] alone can't answer.
[42:21] How could something that happened to one
[42:22] body appear on another?
[42:24] >> An autopsy report [music] in black and
[42:26] white made before the child in question
[42:29] was born and many cases we find a close
[42:31] correspondence between the postmortem
[42:34] report and the birth marks and birth
[42:36] defects.
[42:37] >> It becomes harder to make sense of how
[42:39] someone's fatal wound in another country
[42:42] years ago shows up in a child.
[42:45] >> The birthmark cases, that's next time on
[42:47] the Reincarnation [music]
[42:48] Records.
[42:52] Thank you to the small team who made
[42:53] this season possible. Our amazing
[42:55] producer Cooper Mall, our audio mix and
[42:57] sound design was by Jeremy Cole, music
[42:59] was by Mike Carbino, my right hand was
[43:01] Selena Kennedy, and I'm Kindred your
[43:03] executive producer, writer, editor, and
[43:06] host. And if you haven't listened to our
[43:07] last season of the podcast, The
[43:09] Consciousness Cassettes, [music] I
[43:10] highly recommend you do so as it will
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