Transcript
[0:01] I think it would be helpful to start off
[0:03] by
[0:04] explaining to us
[0:06] how long you have been working in
[0:09] conflict zones for.
[0:11] >> I have had the privilege of serving
[0:14] since 2008. So, that's about 18 years uh
[0:19] in different conflict zones. I've worked
[0:21] in about 14 or 15 um as I worked for the
[0:24] UN for about the first 10 years.
[0:27] And since then have really just been
[0:29] serving children who've been affected by
[0:31] war and by displacement as well as
[0:34] particularly victims of um sexual
[0:36] violence and torture.
[0:40] >> Many of us
[0:42] will have simply no idea of the kinds of
[0:47] things that you have come across.
[0:51] Can you paint a picture for us as to the
[0:53] types of things you see as part of your
[0:55] job?
[0:56] >> Absolutely. I think for those who are in
[0:59] active war, all the things that we now
[1:02] have come to really live stream and see
[1:04] the bombings, the really brutal ways in
[1:07] which uh bodies are scattered, which
[1:09] children have to witness, um the loss of
[1:12] homes and the complete and utter
[1:13] collapse of entire neighborhoods,
[1:15] the loss of identity that comes with
[1:18] that when you know your entire
[1:19] livelihood and your family um has has
[1:23] has been lost, has been martyred, has
[1:25] been killed. But on top of that, there
[1:27] are the invisible wounds that we're not
[1:29] always thinking about, but that includes
[1:31] a lot of despair. So, with the terror,
[1:33] with the grief, with the anger, with the
[1:35] extreme fear, especially amongst
[1:37] children, and also all the work that
[1:39] takes for a child to be super brave. A
[1:41] lot of these children are hiding their
[1:43] suffering from their parents as well. Um
[1:45] and so the fragmentation of a community
[1:48] starts with the fragmentation of the
[1:49] individual identity, the relationships
[1:52] between each other um um [clears throat]
[1:54] as they're on the run, as they are
[1:56] trying to get across the border, as they
[1:58] are trying to as many of us saw you know
[2:01] around 2015 2016 get across the sea and
[2:04] not drown and and to survive.
[2:06] The starvation that is either forced or
[2:09] as a result of of being without
[2:11] resources,
[2:12] being living in a tent on mud
[2:15] sometimes for days, sometimes for years
[2:17] and years on end. There are Syrian
[2:19] refugees that I've that I've been
[2:20] working with who've lived in a plastic
[2:22] tarp on mud for 15 years.
[2:26] And then there are those who have also
[2:28] experienced torture and have been
[2:30] targeted for intimidation
[2:33] >> [snorts]
[2:33] >> who then also lose their you know lose
[2:37] their their touch with reality and do
[2:39] develop psychosis and other quite severe
[2:42] psychological
[2:44] symptoms.
[2:47] >> Your training is that of a psychologist?
[2:52] >> As a trauma psychologist specifically
[2:54] psychotherapist particularly with
[2:56] children and adolescents.
[2:58] >> When you first started going to war
[3:01] zones to try and help
[3:05] was there at all a part of you
[3:09] even with all your training that thought
[3:13] the magnitude of suffering is so great
[3:17] here
[3:18] what can I as an individual possibly do
[3:21] to help?
[3:23] >> I think that is always always the
[3:25] feeling that on one hand it will never
[3:28] be enough but on the other hand we have
[3:30] to do everything we can.
[3:34] I spend a lot of time with people who
[3:36] have
[3:37] been on the receiving end of the most
[3:39] extreme forms of human brutality
[3:42] and cruelty
[3:43] and in that realizing that it isn't
[3:46] going to take not just an individual but
[3:48] really an entire community to address
[3:51] the level of suffering and to begin some
[3:53] form of form of healing but
[3:56] not in not letting the great be the
[3:58] enemy of the good has to be a principle
[4:01] in this work.
[4:02] Otherwise it just gets overwhelming and
[4:04] we we also spiral into the despair.
[4:07] Um, part of the effort, um, in these
[4:10] circumstances is to be able to take it
[4:12] really just one moment at a time, but
[4:14] also to put yourself in their shoes and
[4:16] say, "If I were in this instance where I
[4:18] have lost absolutely everything,
[4:20] um,
[4:22] and even feel like I've lost some form
[4:23] of dignity, but I feel utterly alone,
[4:26] um, and utterly terrified, what would I
[4:29] want in this moment?" And sometimes it
[4:31] is just a friendly face, a comforting
[4:34] voice, a reassurance that there's
[4:36] someone to walk with me, um, through
[4:38] this part of my journey.
[4:41] >> In the lead-up to this conversation, I
[4:42] was thinking it is almost trivial to try
[4:44] and sort of compare
[4:47] suffering, right? To to compare what
[4:50] someone in,
[4:52] you know, a relatively safe environment,
[4:54] let's say here in the UK, might
[4:57] want to do to improve their health and
[4:59] well-being
[5:01] to the sort of things you say.
[5:03] But then I saw something interesting in
[5:05] your work,
[5:06] which was,
[5:07] I guess on one level you can't compare
[5:09] the level of suffering,
[5:11] but it's just it's what you just said
[5:12] there about
[5:14] being there for someone, being seen,
[5:17] you know, providing a non-judgmental
[5:19] space for someone,
[5:22] I know from clinical practice how
[5:24] valuable that can be
[5:26] for a human being who's not been through
[5:28] war,
[5:29] >> Uh-huh.
[5:30] >> but I get from your work that it's also
[5:32] valuable
[5:34] for someone
[5:35] who has been through war and seen their
[5:37] house blown up and their parents
[5:39] murdered.
[5:40] >> Absolutely.
[5:41] At the end of the day, no one no one
[5:43] wins in the suffering Olympics. We're
[5:45] not here to compare, you know, trauma,
[5:48] but we are here to be as human as
[5:50] possible in response to all of it. Um,
[5:52] whether you are on a place of relative
[5:54] safety, trauma, as Judith Herman says,
[5:56] is the incident that overwhelms your
[5:58] system's ability to respond. So, whether
[6:01] it is a car crash in a relatively safe
[6:03] country where there are medical
[6:04] resources and the ability to respond or
[6:06] it is a genocide.
[6:08] In both cases, the human being affected
[6:10] by that trauma wants to have the same
[6:14] response of a human who can offer
[6:16] safety, who can offer healing, who can
[6:19] offer reassurance, and who will not
[6:21] abandon them.
[6:22] And so as much as possible, really
[6:25] trying to restore that mindset and that
[6:27] reality even in the most overwhelming of
[6:30] circumstances.
[6:32] >> You mentioned we all want a human being
[6:33] who can
[6:35] provide us that safety.
[6:36] >> Yes.
[6:39] >> But I'm guessing there's a difference
[6:40] there between physical safety and
[6:42] emotional safety because you
[6:45] in a war zone, you can't provide
[6:48] physical safety, can you? So what kind
[6:50] of safety are you providing for these
[6:52] children
[6:53] and adults as well?
[6:54] >> Absolutely, both children and adults.
[6:57] Um
[6:58] It is certainly a
[6:59] a moment for emotional safety,
[7:02] but a lot of that actually starts with
[7:04] ensuring that we never over promise. On
[7:06] my team, I always say, you know, that
[7:09] as much as you feel pressure to say that
[7:11] everything will be okay or that, you
[7:13] know,
[7:14] we are safe, lying to someone in the
[7:17] moment just to give them a momentary
[7:19] comfort actually is quite dangerous to
[7:22] not helping them actually realize what
[7:24] is available to them
[7:26] and also doesn't build the trust between
[7:29] them and us. And so
[7:31] making sure that we don't over promise
[7:33] is is the first rule of it, but the
[7:34] other is to say very clearly, in this
[7:37] moment you are in danger, but I am here
[7:39] with you right now.
[7:40] And in and in this moment I am a safe
[7:42] person who is is is not going to hurt
[7:45] you and is going to listen to you if
[7:47] you'd like to share. And if not, just to
[7:49] sit with you as you cry or as you want
[7:51] to rage and scream
[7:53] or if you want to just walk through how
[7:55] am I going to make sure that me and my
[7:58] and my four children can survive on the
[8:00] amount of food that I have, you know,
[8:02] for the next two days and help you sort
[8:05] that out. And so really a lot of it is
[8:07] accompaniment, um but it's the promise
[8:09] of of steadfast and and continual
[8:11] accompaniment that we try to offer.
[8:15] >> Can you share an example of
[8:19] a situation where
[8:22] someone, a child, an adult, a family was
[8:25] in great need
[8:27] and you simply providing
[8:30] a non-judgmental
[8:31] safe space for them to cry
[8:34] >> Uh-huh.
[8:35] >> uh to be seen has had an impact?
[8:38] >> Yeah, many stories. I'll share three
[8:40] different ones with you. So, there's a
[8:42] 7-year-old girl, Lara, uh who I uh who's
[8:46] a double amputee. She lost both of her
[8:49] legs um
[8:51] to uh an Israeli bomb um in Gaza. She's
[8:54] Palestinian from Gaza.
[8:56] And
[8:58] sh- the bomb had leveled her entire the
[9:02] the entire building in which her house
[9:04] um in her home was. And it was her and
[9:06] her father at home at the time. Her
[9:07] mother and her two brothers had um been
[9:10] out visiting her grandmother when the
[9:12] bomb fell on the house. And so, the
[9:16] ceiling collapsed. That was her last
[9:18] memory.
[9:19] And her father threw himself around her
[9:22] to protect her. And in doing so, had
[9:24] protected all her vital organs. But they
[9:26] were crushed in the rubble for 3 days.
[9:29] And so, she had to watch her father die
[9:32] knowing that she was alive because he
[9:34] had protected her.
[9:36] And
[9:37] as he was dying, he said to her, "Lara,
[9:40] be brave."
[9:42] He said, "Matbki, don't cry." He said,
[9:44] "Be there for your mother. It's your job
[9:45] now. You have to be there for your
[9:46] mother and your siblings."
[9:49] And he said, "Don't worry, you know, I
[9:51] will be with God and I will be with you
[9:53] always."
[9:55] And [clears throat]
[9:56] 3 days later, they managed to pull Lara
[9:58] out, but the entire time she lived with
[10:01] the guilt of
[10:02] having been the reason that her father
[10:04] died um knowing that he had sacrificed
[10:06] his life for her.
[10:08] And throughout therapy, she would feel
[10:10] so guilty every time she cried because
[10:13] she said, "I am useless." She said,
[10:15] "Instead of helping my mother, my mother
[10:17] has to carry me on her back up four
[10:19] flights of stairs where we live."
[10:22] Now, as you know, in a quite a dingy
[10:24] situation as refugees,
[10:27] um and and so the work with her, a lot
[10:30] of it was to help her work through her
[10:31] survivor's guilt.
[10:33] To say there was a space for her to cry.
[10:36] Um she made me promise a lot that I
[10:38] would not share with her mother because
[10:39] afraid that her suffering would break
[10:41] her
[10:43] um on top of everything else. But, we
[10:45] also found ways that she could
[10:47] contribute in the household even um
[10:50] as a double amputee.
[10:51] We found other ways for her to be able
[10:53] to learn to learn with her siblings as
[10:56] well even though she wasn't able to go
[10:57] to school.
[10:59] Um and bit by bit, we helped her to
[11:01] rebuild her life but also to feel that
[11:04] she was still in conversation
[11:06] um and not failing her father who she
[11:09] felt so much shame for,
[11:11] you know, um not fulfilling her his last
[11:15] wish of her to take care of of her of
[11:17] her family.
[11:18] Uh but that took a long time but it's
[11:20] such a huge burden on a 7-year-old.
[11:22] Um
[11:24] and she's extraordinary.
[11:26] And the saddest part of all this is that
[11:28] she was a dancer
[11:29] um
[11:30] and one video she showed me was of her
[11:32] twirling twirling on the beach um of of
[11:35] Gaza and um of of of dancing dabke
[11:39] Palestinian dance with her girlfriends
[11:41] um
[11:42] and so that was a loss that we also had
[11:45] to work through. Yeah.
[11:47] >> Were you just helping her or were you
[11:49] also helping her mother?
[11:50] >> The way that that I work and that my
[11:52] team works um is that we really work
[11:54] with the whole family as much as
[11:55] possible. More often than not, you know,
[11:57] parents come to us because they're
[11:59] worried about their child but we always
[12:01] say, "Well, how about you?
[12:02] You have to carry the grief and the
[12:04] suffering of this child which then
[12:06] becomes yours."
[12:07] As much as possible, we really encourage
[12:09] them to also be in therapy and then we
[12:11] work with the family as a whole as well.
[12:13] Um and I think that's one thing that
[12:15] we're quite proud of to be able to hold
[12:17] all the family. So, each member of the
[12:18] family has a different therapist so that
[12:21] they can feel that's fully confidential.
[12:23] Um but then we work together as a family
[12:26] if and when they're ready
[12:28] uh to be able to address the relational
[12:30] pieces that have fragmented.
[12:31] >> Yeah.
[12:32] >> Yeah.
[12:32] >> I'm just thinking back to what you said
[12:34] before about not overpromising.
[12:35] >> Mhm.
[12:37] >> I guess there must be a tendency to want
[12:39] to reassure in the moment and as you say
[12:42] overpromise.
[12:43] >> Mhm.
[12:44] >> When that has happened in the past, as
[12:46] I'm sure it has,
[12:50] what is the consequence of that
[12:53] for these families?
[12:54] >> Huh.
[12:55] >> [snorts]
[12:55] >> I'm glad you ask because this is one of
[12:57] the ethics that I teach my students and
[13:01] and also on our team because we've had
[13:02] to learn
[13:04] we have had to learn the hard way.
[13:06] So, there's a lot of good intention um
[13:09] but that when it doesn't involve the
[13:11] families who are affected themselves, uh
[13:14] can really violate, you know, our
[13:15] principle of do no harm in humanitarian
[13:17] work particularly. I'll give you an
[13:19] example.
[13:20] Um
[13:22] I remember at the beginning of the of
[13:24] the Syria crisis, there were a lot of uh
[13:27] mothers who couldn't breastfeed because
[13:29] of the stress and um and so they had to
[13:31] feed their newborns. And there was an
[13:33] NGO, a European NGO
[13:35] named leave unnamed, that was handing
[13:37] out milk powder.
[13:39] And which of course was just from the
[13:41] best of intentions, wanting to help
[13:42] these mothers. But the the the milk
[13:45] powder had no instructions on it that
[13:48] were either readable. It was all in a
[13:50] European language um and uh
[13:54] none of the mothers knew what to do with
[13:55] it because in their communities they
[13:57] only did breastfeed at the time. Uh and
[14:00] so a lot of them were feeding their
[14:01] babies the powder directly. But they
[14:03] also didn't have access to clean water.
[14:05] So, had they known what to do with it,
[14:07] that wouldn't have been a reality. So,
[14:09] as a result, the children the babies
[14:10] were getting sick from just being fed
[14:13] the milk powder. So, you know, this is
[14:15] an example, I think, of where not being
[14:18] keyed into what is actually needed by
[14:20] the community can really harm them, but
[14:22] also then break the trust and they say,
[14:24] "Well, you know, were you trying to hurt
[14:25] our children? Were you trying to, you
[14:27] know, um
[14:29] were you trying to humiliate us for not
[14:30] being able to read your language?" And
[14:32] so on. So, these also have obviously a
[14:35] psychological impact and and and hurt
[14:37] the community. In the in the therapeutic
[14:40] space, um
[14:42] I think we all want to be desperately
[14:43] able be able to say to people that it
[14:46] gets better.
[14:47] Um and sometimes we can say that.
[14:50] And that's one of the most comforting
[14:51] things that you can say.
[14:53] But in the middle of the war, when there
[14:55] is no post to the post-traumatic stress
[14:58] disorder, when there is not yet any
[15:00] safety, um
[15:02] over-promising can lead people to
[15:04] withdraw in the therapy process and say,
[15:07] "I don't feel safe with you, and
[15:09] therefore I can't open up with you, and
[15:12] um therefore um
[15:14] maybe the the process of therapy is one
[15:17] that I cannot be entirely myself or
[15:19] entirely let go in."
[15:21] >> So, trust.
[15:22] >> Yeah.
[15:23] >> Which of course is important for
[15:25] any form of healing.
[15:26] >> Yes.
[15:28] And just to to to build on that, so much
[15:31] of what I teach my team to say is I
[15:33] don't know.
[15:35] As actually saying to them that I may be
[15:38] a clinician with 25-30 years of
[15:39] experience, but in this moment I don't
[15:41] know.
[15:42] But I will be with you in the not
[15:44] knowing, and I will be with you in the
[15:47] in the in the journey of the
[15:48] step-by-step into the unknown, so that
[15:51] at least you won't be alone.
[15:54] And that's our promise.
[15:56] >> I have lots of things to follow up on,
[16:00] um but I don't want to interrupt you
[16:02] sharing these three stories I think you
[16:04] had to mind, so please feel free to hit
[16:06] to continue sharing.
[16:07] >> Um another is of a an extraordinary man.
[16:11] He was 27 when he when I first met him,
[16:15] but he looked like he was almost 40
[16:17] because of the years he had endured um
[16:20] six years in a prison under the Assad
[16:22] regime and endured extreme torture and
[16:25] then had escaped only then to be
[16:28] captured and then tortured by ISIS for
[16:30] another for another few years.
[16:32] Uh and in the process had lost his
[16:34] fiance whom he was deeply in love with
[16:38] and but never found her body, never knew
[16:40] news of her and um had really just held
[16:43] out waiting for her.
[16:45] And his memory of her was really I think
[16:47] what helped him survive during prison
[16:49] but then afterwards left him with
[16:50] extreme guilt to say, "Do I move on with
[16:52] my life? Do I know if she survived?" Um
[16:56] and we had very small spaces for
[17:00] therapy. It was a tiny makeshift clinic
[17:03] where one side was the primary health
[17:05] care clinic with the doctors and the
[17:06] nurses um who were doing, you know,
[17:08] emergency care and then there was my
[17:10] side of it where we were offering
[17:12] therapy um and a colleague of mine was
[17:15] doing psychiatric assessment as well.
[17:17] And he came in and detailed all
[17:20] all of the torture that he had received
[17:23] um that he had experienced and had
[17:25] suffered through.
[17:27] And
[17:29] I remember at the time being very wary
[17:31] of how much he was really retraumatizing
[17:33] himself in the process and being very
[17:34] direct with him and saying, "You do not
[17:36] need to prove to me that you are a
[17:39] victim because I know that the world and
[17:41] the places in which you're trying to
[17:43] seek asylum are still going to treat you
[17:45] as a threat as a as a male Arab Syrian
[17:49] man."
[17:51] But he said to me in the moment, "I need
[17:53] to be able to tell my story and tell it
[17:55] once and then
[17:57] not have to say it again."
[17:59] And that's when I learned at the time
[18:01] really as a young therapist that one of
[18:02] the greatest gifts that I could give him
[18:04] was to document his entire patient
[18:06] history.
[18:07] So beyond listening, being able to
[18:09] document and validate, have that
[18:11] translated into the local languages,
[18:13] have that verified by our legal
[18:16] partners, this was a way of validating
[18:18] that which the rest of the world was
[18:20] either denying or gaslighting. Um and he
[18:23] carried that paper onwards onwards
[18:25] through his journey for asylum. Um he
[18:27] kept it in a plastic baggy that he
[18:29] taped.
[18:30] Um
[18:31] and when he when he reached his
[18:33] destination
[18:35] um years later he said to me this paper
[18:38] saved my life.
[18:40] And he said it it also meant that I
[18:41] didn't have to repeat myself over and
[18:43] over
[18:44] because it was signed and stamped by a
[18:46] doctor and by the the legal clinic with
[18:49] us as well. Um and so that's been a
[18:50] practice I've carried ever since
[18:52] um that all the patients have the option
[18:54] we tech we take their consent to
[18:55] document their patient history so that
[18:58] they um
[19:00] that they can be recognized
[19:02] um moving forward.
[19:04] So that's another
[19:06] I think
[19:07] a different way of offering healing.
[19:09] >> Yeah.
[19:09] >> Even if it was only a one or two time,
[19:12] you know, because a lot of people ask
[19:13] well they're on the move. What if you
[19:14] only see them for, you know, a session
[19:16] two, three at max before they have
[19:19] >> Yeah.
[19:19] >> move on. And there there are ways to do
[19:21] things um contained and safe.
[19:24] >> They really are universal lessons,
[19:25] aren't they? Whether we're dealing with
[19:28] people who've been affected by war or
[19:29] not. And I and I don't think it's
[19:31] trivial to say that. In my first week as
[19:34] a GP
[19:35] I learned that listening is medicine.
[19:38] I learned that I don't need to have a
[19:40] solution like a pharmacist who's got
[19:42] solution.
[19:44] I just saw it time and time again. If
[19:46] you allow people to tell their story and
[19:48] you don't judge and you listen
[19:49] attentively
[19:51] that is often the first time they've
[19:53] ever been able to do that.
[19:56] And yeah, it's just interesting me to to
[19:58] to sort of
[19:59] really [snorts] reflect on that
[20:00] similarity in two completely different
[20:02] worlds.
[20:03] >> Mhm.
[20:04] Absolutely. And
[20:06] and you know, one as a child and also
[20:09] one as a an adult man. And who by the
[20:12] way went on to get married and have
[20:14] children.
[20:15] >> Wow.
[20:16] >> You know, because he was so sexually
[20:18] tortured he was so fearful he said I
[20:19] don't know if I can ever be intimate
[20:21] again, but years later um sent me
[20:24] pictures of his two children.
[20:26] Um, and that was just the greatest joy.
[20:29] Um,
[20:30] and, uh, so that that healing is
[20:32] possible.
[20:35] >> Why is it you do the work that you do?
[20:38] >> It's a good question. I I grew up in
[20:40] Hong Kong, um,
[20:42] uh, which is a bit of a champagne bubble
[20:44] and, um,
[20:45] and knew nothing about, you know, uh,
[20:49] uh, my family were in New York, Tokyo,
[20:51] London. So, these were my points of
[20:53] reference as a young child about what
[20:54] the world looked like. So, I didn't
[20:56] really understand, you know, poverty,
[20:58] much less war and suffering.
[21:00] >> But when you grew up was Hong Kong quite
[21:01] an affluent area?
[21:02] >> Absolutely, very much so. And, um, very
[21:05] cosmopolitan, but at a very, um, you
[21:08] know, in a very global north way.
[21:10] But the truth is all four of my
[21:11] grandparents were refugees. They didn't
[21:14] call themselves that at the time, but
[21:16] they'd all escaped war and had to do
[21:18] extraordinary things to survive, but
[21:20] never really talked about it. My only
[21:22] surviving grandmother, however, I'm
[21:24] quite close to, and it came out in in
[21:27] bits and pieces that, you know, then
[21:29] would sort of
[21:30] wake me up and
[21:32] realize how much she had gone through as
[21:34] a child
[21:35] and endured. Uh, I ended up I sort of
[21:38] falling into this work as a mistake. I
[21:40] went to, um, Palestine as a Christian
[21:43] pilgrim, you know, wanting to see
[21:44] Nazareth and Jerusalem and and Bethlehem
[21:46] and all the holy sites. And, uh, but in
[21:49] doing so, uh, in passing the refugee
[21:53] camps to, well, military checkpoints
[21:55] first of all, um, often, uh, guarded by
[22:00] by young people who my age, cuz I was 18
[22:02] at the time, and, you know, military
[22:04] service in Israel begins at 18, but also
[22:07] to going to the refugee camps. It was
[22:09] the first time I'd seen children who
[22:10] really didn't smile. They looked like
[22:12] they'd had the light taken out of their
[22:14] eyes, and
[22:15] it scared me because I had spent a lot
[22:17] of time volunteering in different parts
[22:19] of Africa. My first, uh, the first place
[22:21] was in Soweto, yeah, you know, as you
[22:23] know, a famous slum in South Africa. So,
[22:25] incredibly
[22:26] Um uh,
[22:28] a lot of them had
[22:30] were were struggling with HIV AIDS and
[22:33] but the children could find you know a
[22:34] spare tire and that would be their joy
[22:36] for the day. But emotional oppression is
[22:39] something completely utterly different.
[22:41] And so encountering
[22:43] those Palestinian children at the camp
[22:45] really scared me
[22:46] because I wanted to know you know who
[22:49] has taken that joy and that light and
[22:51] that life out of your life out of your
[22:53] eyes.
[22:54] Uh and so I stayed really
[22:57] um
[22:58] at the time I didn't speak any Arabic.
[23:00] I barely spoke any really other
[23:02] languages other than those I'd grown up
[23:04] with and but I danced and so I
[23:07] volunteered as a dance teacher
[23:10] in a refugee camp where there was an
[23:11] Italian psychotherapist who taught me
[23:13] and the music and the art and the
[23:15] theater
[23:16] teachers to use our art therapeutically.
[23:20] And
[23:21] um
[23:23] at the time I sort of thought that
[23:25] psychology was interesting was but was a
[23:26] bit of a soft science. I was a
[23:29] good pre-med student
[23:31] as you do and
[23:33] but then I really just saw the
[23:35] transformative power of it in
[23:37] circumstances where children had seen
[23:39] that you know parents brutally murdered
[23:41] in front of them. And so that really
[23:43] opened my eyes to the power of
[23:45] psychological healing and I suppose the
[23:47] rest is a bit history.
[23:50] >> That opened your eyes to the
[23:51] transformative power of dance?
[23:53] >> Of both dance yes. Movement you know and
[23:56] the power of movement and the body and
[23:57] healing but also of
[24:00] psychological healing and the emotional
[24:04] the emotional
[24:05] um
[24:07] the emotional transformation and and
[24:09] strength that can be that can be found
[24:11] even in deep deep trauma.
[24:16] >> If you're with a child who has had their
[24:19] parents brutally murdered
[24:21] what role does dance have to play?
[24:25] >> Hm.
[24:26] So dance and different part kinds of art
[24:29] um
[24:31] can play an incredible role.
[24:34] Um we call them expressive therapies,
[24:36] the dance and music and art and theater.
[24:39] But, there's a time and place.
[24:40] >> Yeah.
[24:41] >> And it also depends on what has happened
[24:44] to those children.
[24:46] Um
[24:47] a lot of them are very fearful. A lot of
[24:49] them have a lot of anger in addition to
[24:51] the just enormous grief that they carry.
[24:54] Um [snorts] but, as Bessel says, you
[24:56] know, the body keeps the score.
[24:58] Um and so, especially for young children
[25:02] who may not have the words to describe
[25:03] what has happened to them,
[25:05] sometimes movement is really the way for
[25:08] them to release. Whether it is art and
[25:10] not just, you know, art in terms of
[25:12] drawing drawing what has happened, but
[25:14] just, you know, the ability to to
[25:16] express their rage through art and color
[25:18] and the and the power of that to see it
[25:20] visually displayed. Or movement that is
[25:23] powerful and the and the and the
[25:25] stamping or the um the ability to do so
[25:27] together um
[25:30] it is is very therapeutic. But, they're
[25:33] not I I think where I have um had to,
[25:37] especially in sort of the humanitarian
[25:39] space where it's often done as a writ
[25:40] large program for children, I've always
[25:42] had to say, "Be careful because some
[25:44] children aren't ready for that yet." Um
[25:46] and it's too much too soon.
[25:48] And can lead them to experience
[25:50] overwhelm um in the healing process. So,
[25:53] it's very powerful, but where as with
[25:55] anything powerful has to be carefully um
[25:58] yeah. And carefully approached.
[26:00] >> It must be very challenging, I would
[26:02] imagine, to know
[26:07] when is the right time to introduce
[26:09] what.
[26:09] >> Mhm.
[26:10] >> I'm guessing there are resource issues.
[26:12] I'm guessing you don't know how many,
[26:14] you know, in a comma sessions you're
[26:16] going to have.
[26:17] >> Absolutely.
[26:18] >> So, is it that on one hand there's a
[26:20] there's a sort of urgency that I want to
[26:23] give this child or this adult all the
[26:26] healing tools that I can at the same
[26:27] time if I
[26:29] do too much too quickly, I'm going to
[26:30] overwhelm them and and sort of turn them
[26:32] off.
[26:33] >> Absolutely.
[26:34] Um, it's almost as if you were in my
[26:36] trainings and our workshop and
[26:37] curriculum cuz you're asking exactly
[26:39] that question. We say, "How do we do
[26:40] therapy when each session could be your
[26:42] last?" You don't know, you know, we
[26:45] could schedule it for next week for the
[26:47] you know, where they could be displaced
[26:49] once again or the house could be bombed
[26:50] or in in some of our cases we've lost
[26:52] patients. Patients have been killed
[26:54] after, you know, they started therapy
[26:56] with us and you know, that's a whole
[26:58] other level of grief. But in the moment,
[27:01] I think some of it is actually managing
[27:03] our own
[27:04] urgency, managing our own trauma and and
[27:08] anger and the feeling that we have to
[27:09] fix things like you said before, the
[27:11] desire to provide a solution. And
[27:15] especially early on, but especially when
[27:18] war is still ongoing, our job is to be
[27:20] still.
[27:21] Our job is to slow down. Our job is to
[27:24] listen,
[27:26] but not just listen. I always say,
[27:28] especially for those on my team who work
[27:30] with children, trust the children.
[27:33] Trust our patients. They will tell you
[27:35] how far they can go or not go.
[27:37] Our job is to offer options and agency.
[27:41] So, not to say that this is the only way
[27:42] forward, but to say, "Okay, we could try
[27:46] this right now.
[27:47] Does does it feel like you'd want to?
[27:50] Would you like to try or does it feel
[27:52] like too much?" Um, because more often
[27:54] than not when they are in survival mode
[27:56] and protective, they actually have quite
[27:58] a good sense of their boundaries.
[28:01] >> Is there a
[28:05] unique challenge that parents or
[28:10] mothers face in environments like this?
[28:14] I I'm again, yeah, I'm sure you've got
[28:16] many examples, but I'm sort of imagining
[28:20] the mother who's
[28:22] partner's no longer around,
[28:23] >> Yes.
[28:24] >> whose house is no longer there,
[28:25] >> Yes.
[28:26] >> and maybe there's a few children that
[28:28] still need
[28:30] looking after.
[28:32] So, there's
[28:33] a grief for the life that she used to
[28:36] have, the partner she used to have.
[28:38] Maybe one or two of the children are not
[28:40] there.
[28:41] Is that a different kind of challenge?
[28:43] That's the sort of challenge that
[28:45] you know, we we can't even imagine.
[28:47] >> [snorts]
[28:47] >> It is a challenge to be superhuman.
[28:50] They have to be superhuman in these
[28:52] circumstances.
[28:53] >> And have you seen them be superhuman?
[28:54] >> Oh, absolutely. And it's extraordinary.
[28:58] I don't know how they do it. I really
[28:59] don't. They
[29:02] And don't forget this is often, at least
[29:04] I'm telling you the context of Gaza, but
[29:05] in a lot of Arab and different African
[29:07] cultures,
[29:08] you have never known what it is like to
[29:11] be alone. You grow up in a family where
[29:14] you it's not just your nuclear family,
[29:15] your parents live the floor above you or
[29:18] the house right next to you. Um and so
[29:20] it is the village who has raised you and
[29:22] your children. So, when you are forced
[29:25] into exile without your spouse,
[29:27] you're not just without your spouse,
[29:28] you're without your parents, but you're
[29:29] without your siblings, you're without
[29:31] your children's cousins who they get to
[29:33] play with. And all of a sudden you have
[29:35] to carry it all in addition to your own
[29:37] trauma. And I really do think that
[29:40] they're superhuman because they hold so
[29:42] much, but also they work so hard not to
[29:45] take it out on their children.
[29:47] Um and that's why we have to be there,
[29:48] and that's why we're almost insistent
[29:50] that every parent who comes to us
[29:52] for to have their child receive therapy
[29:54] is also in therapy. Um
[29:58] I can give you so many examples, but
[30:02] one of the um
[30:04] one of the extraordinary mothers, she's
[30:06] a journalist, and she's just a
[30:07] powerhouse. And she has four daughters
[30:10] and one son, and the 5-year-old
[30:13] had cancer.
[30:15] So, in addition to losing everything,
[30:17] she had to get her youngest, Yaseen,
[30:19] who's my patient, cancer treatment.
[30:23] And
[30:24] she said in an interview that we did
[30:25] with her recently, she said, "I had no
[30:28] idea how to connect with my children
[30:29] anymore."
[30:30] Because she said, "I had to be both the
[30:31] mother and the father,
[30:33] but also I had to be the home.
[30:36] And being so strong, I couldn't
[30:39] connect with them as children.
[30:41] And so, that's where
[30:43] my team at Healing for Gaza she she she
[30:46] said was able to meet the children where
[30:48] they were, but also to give her space to
[30:49] just be her own person
[30:51] um without the resentment that built.
[30:53] Um and that and that does.
[30:56] But a lot of them are incredibly tired.
[30:58] And sometimes therapy is just a place to
[31:00] fall apart and be very tired
[31:03] and not be judged for it.
[31:06] >> Maybe the only place
[31:07] >> Yeah.
[31:07] >> where they can do it.
[31:08] >> Yeah.
[31:11] >> I think I read
[31:13] the story of Lena,
[31:15] >> Yeah.
[31:16] >> which I think is the story that prompted
[31:19] you to set up your organization.
[31:21] >> Yes.
[31:22] >> Can you can you tell us a little bit
[31:23] about Lena and
[31:25] what
[31:26] her words to you ended up leading to?
[31:31] >> Um so,
[31:34] I'm a psychologist and before the
[31:36] genocide started, I was offering pro
[31:39] bono
[31:40] um
[31:41] therapy to war-affected children and
[31:43] their and their families.
[31:46] And when the genocide started, obviously
[31:49] the the scale the scale of how many
[31:52] children were going to need help
[31:54] really hit me. I already even before it
[31:56] started was feeling that my conscience
[31:58] was really struggling with with the
[31:59] length of my waiting list.
[32:01] Um
[32:02] because I was you know, I said that
[32:04] plenty of people that I've trained with
[32:05] who are extraordinary, but I can't ask
[32:08] them to up and leave their lives and be
[32:09] on the front lines with me. Um they also
[32:12] don't speak Arabic, but my experience
[32:14] working with Afghan patients after the
[32:17] Taliban took over Afghanistan and I
[32:18] don't speak Dari or Pashto. I know like
[32:20] five words in each language um made me
[32:22] realize that you could do this work if
[32:24] you trained your interpreters well. And
[32:26] I had the most extraordinary
[32:27] interpreters who I trained to say as the
[32:30] patient said pause where they paused,
[32:32] choke where they choked, repeat what
[32:33] they repeated so that as I was listening
[32:36] even without video um or with you know,
[32:39] facial expressions that I could track
[32:41] that I could then understand what was
[32:43] happening with them and what mattered.
[32:44] >> Mhm.
[32:45] >> So, that was the backdrop of what I
[32:46] thought was possible. But then I you
[32:49] know, I I just sort of waffled. I was
[32:50] like, is this needed?
[32:52] Um you know, right now they need to
[32:54] survive and food and shelter and so on
[32:55] and much you know, felt like they were
[32:57] more important. But does anyone want to
[32:59] talk?
[33:00] And was it worth doing if it there were
[33:02] only a few of us?
[33:03] So,
[33:04] I talked to Lena um who is uh the mom of
[33:08] um a little boy
[33:10] um also a double amputee
[33:13] uh who had uh
[33:15] who had lost his legs in 2014 in the
[33:17] 50-day war.
[33:19] And I said, you know, is this worth
[33:20] doing? Bistahel Yanni.
[33:22] Um is it worth it, you know?
[33:24] And and she said, "Look."
[33:27] She said, "My boy
[33:28] lost both his legs.
[33:31] And if there was anyone in the world who
[33:33] could tell him that his life was still
[33:34] worth living
[33:36] I still loved as much if not more so
[33:39] than before, that he could still pursue
[33:41] his dreams
[33:43] um
[33:43] >> [clears throat]
[33:44] >> albeit in different ways. If there was
[33:46] anyone who could help him understand
[33:48] that and believe that." She said, "I
[33:49] would have done anything to find that
[33:50] person." She said, "You were that
[33:51] person. But in healing him
[33:54] she said, "You also healed me because I
[33:56] was so angry and I was so I was so
[33:59] panicked." And she said, "And you helped
[34:00] me and my husband stop fighting all the
[34:02] time because we were so angry at
[34:03] ourselves for not having been able to
[34:05] protect him. We felt so much guilt. And
[34:08] his siblings to not revolve their whole
[34:09] lives around him and feel guilty for,
[34:12] you know, going to school or having
[34:13] fun."
[34:14] Um so, she said, "For every single child
[34:17] that you can offer healing to, you are
[34:19] offering healing to at least five, six
[34:20] people who love him or her dearly."
[34:25] But then in her sort of very direct
[34:27] Palestinian way, she also said, "Ismay."
[34:30] Which means, "Listen."
[34:31] She said, "If you're not doing this
[34:33] because you feel it's too small, it's
[34:34] not big enough, it's not flashy enough."
[34:37] She said, "Then haram alayki, you know,
[34:39] shame on you." She said, "Because for
[34:41] every single child you can offer that
[34:43] healing, if it's only five, 10 other
[34:45] psychologists." She said, "Every child
[34:48] means the whole universe to someone. So,
[34:50] don't hold that back from them."
[34:52] My god.
[34:55] And then I spoke to my mom, and my mom
[34:57] being my mom was like, "Well,
[35:00] every parent is only as happy as their
[35:01] saddest child." So.
[35:05] >> [laughter]
[35:06] >> Between Lena and my mom, we pretty much
[35:08] started Healing for Gaza the next day,
[35:10] and haven't really looked back.
[35:13] >> And what is Healing for Gaza?
[35:16] >> Well, Healing for Gaza is an emergency
[35:18] mental health intervention um designed
[35:20] to provide the highest quality,
[35:22] culturally resonant, dignified therapy
[35:25] for children and families um and
[35:27] frontliners particularly who have been
[35:30] enduring the the genocide um and who are
[35:33] who continue to struggle daily to
[35:35] survive.
[35:36] Um we have in a lot of ways offered also
[35:41] been a channel for those around the
[35:43] world, clinicians who want to make a
[35:44] difference to be able to. So, we are
[35:46] what we call in psychology a container,
[35:48] a safe container, whereby clinicians who
[35:51] don't speak Arabic, who are working
[35:53] online, can make a difference um
[35:56] and uh so we started as three people 2
[35:59] years ago. Um we are now 180 strong.
[36:03] Um and it means that
[36:06] every Tuesday at 5:00 p.m., a patient in
[36:09] Gaza, a therapist in Australia, and an
[36:12] interpreter in Ohio can meet every week.
[36:16] >> Wow.
[36:17] It sounds like Lena's direct
[36:19] conversation with you was almost the
[36:21] >> conviction.
[36:22] >> The conviction. Did you almost feel an
[36:24] obligation at that point?
[36:26] >> 100% absolutely.
[36:28] You know, and she just looked at me
[36:30] like, "What are you waiting for?"
[36:32] Um so, I'll forever be grateful for
[36:34] that.
[36:36] >> What do you personally get out of doing
[36:38] this work?
[36:41] >> Ah, it's a huge privilege.
[36:44] It's a huge, huge privilege.
[36:46] Um
[36:49] to
[36:51] be someone who can
[36:53] who's who's allowed, you know, because
[36:55] it is it is an invitation to walk with
[36:57] someone through the darkest time of
[37:00] their life.
[37:01] And to see the ways in which they are
[37:02] brave, and to witness the ways in which
[37:05] they are extraordinary and superhuman,
[37:06] like I said. Um but also the ways in
[37:09] which they heal.
[37:10] Um
[37:12] Some people have said, you know, "I've
[37:13] done this for a really long time." You
[37:15] know, one of one of one of the one of
[37:17] the people who I sort of encountered
[37:19] recently, he was like, "You're not
[37:20] jaded." He was like, "How are you not
[37:22] jaded?" I told him it's actually a bit
[37:24] easier now because I've I've done it
[37:26] long enough that children who are 10
[37:27] years old, you know, who I first started
[37:30] working with are now 25 and are starting
[37:32] to build their own families and are and
[37:34] are joyous. And but I remember how dark
[37:37] and how suicidal they were in the
[37:38] beginning. So, it is possible.
[37:41] Um
[37:42] Yeah.
[37:43] >> That must be so rewarding.
[37:44] >> It is.
[37:45] >> To see a 10-year-old
[37:48] in the darkest of pain
[37:51] and to see them 15 years on building a
[37:53] life and starting a family. That that
[37:55] must be utterly incredible.
[37:56] >> And inspiring others, you know, speaking
[37:58] up and saying, you know, this boy in
[38:00] Ramadan who would say to other men, you
[38:02] know, yeah, other young men, "Go to
[38:04] therapy. You know, give it a chance.
[38:06] Give yourself a chance."
[38:08] And and and using his him and his family
[38:11] and his siblings and his mother as a as
[38:13] a as as a model for for what can be. Um
[38:17] and you know, I didn't ask him to do
[38:19] that, but it was just his own experience
[38:21] that he wanted to bring others along as
[38:23] well.
[38:24] >> So, Healing for Gaza, it's a charity?
[38:28] >> So, Early Light Foundation is the
[38:29] charity and Healing for Gaza is our
[38:31] flagship um program that we started
[38:33] with.
[38:34] >> So, if there is anyone who wants to
[38:36] contribute to Healing for Gaza, is there
[38:39] a mechanism for them to do so?
[38:40] >> Yes, absolutely. Um they can go on our
[38:42] website or our Instagram um and be able
[38:45] to donate. And uh if anyone who is a
[38:48] clinician who's listening to this and
[38:49] wants to, you know, join us, um we're
[38:52] recruiting for our next cohort that
[38:53] starts um end of October.
[38:56] Uh if anyone who's an Arabic, you know,
[38:59] bilingual and native Arabic speaker who
[39:01] wants to come and interpret um and
[39:03] support this, we will train you. You
[39:04] have no experience in interpretation,
[39:06] just a commitment to confidentiality and
[39:08] to the to the dignity of um
[39:11] uh uh
[39:12] uh and and and and of mental health, um
[39:15] is welcome to to to apply.
[39:17] But, there's there's a way for anyone to
[39:19] make a difference.
[39:22] >> I don't mean to be crude by asking about
[39:24] uh exact financial amounts, but
[39:28] I guess to really
[39:30] help people understand that that the
[39:32] impacts that you're having, I know
[39:34] there'll be people listening now who
[39:36] wish to donate.
[39:37] >> Mhm.
[39:39] >> If someone donates
[39:41] £10, does that make a difference?
[39:44] >> Absolutely. And I'll tell you every
[39:45] pound matters, because there's not just
[39:47] the material difference, there's the
[39:48] energetic difference. I really do
[39:50] believe that the intention behind the
[39:52] donations is what makes this work
[39:54] possible and what makes it
[39:57] light, as we say, you know, in Only
[39:58] Light Foundation, what what allows for
[40:01] it to be a human connection. Um maybe
[40:04] I'm very Chinese in thinking about it
[40:06] that way, but I don't think that money
[40:07] is money. I really think that who gives
[40:09] it and from what heart will influence
[40:11] the work. And in the same way, we do
[40:13] protect our work um uh from not relying
[40:17] on donations for from from you know,
[40:20] entities that have otherwise supported
[40:22] um
[40:22] um their destruction, um which is
[40:25] sometimes a difficult decision to make,
[40:26] but I think an important one.
[40:28] Uh
[40:29] But, ultimately, you know,
[40:32] I think I'll tell you
[40:34] the children are often so surprised when
[40:37] they learn about um where the support
[40:39] comes from. So, last year at um when I
[40:43] when I was speaking at Oxford at the
[40:45] trauma conference, I invited everyone to
[40:48] write letters to the children.
[40:50] And at every conference we do this, we
[40:52] say, "Please give where you can um
[40:55] financially so that it allows for us to
[40:58] be able especially to see them and meet
[40:59] them in person, but also write your love
[41:03] to the children." And what we do is we
[41:04] translate them, we put them up, we pay
[41:06] for the entirety of the walls when we go
[41:08] in person um
[41:10] with them, and the children get to read
[41:11] them, and they get to pick which letter
[41:12] they want to bring home. And we say,
[41:14] "Sign your name
[41:15] and tell the children which country
[41:17] you're from." And they're amazed.
[41:18] >> So, people at the conference says write
[41:20] handwritten letters.
[41:22] >> Yes.
[41:22] >> They give them to you.
[41:23] >> Yes, and we carry them with us when we
[41:25] go on mission, when we go on field
[41:26] mission. Um and these children keep them
[41:29] with them. I have had a child send me a
[41:31] picture of one that he's kept on his
[41:32] fridge for for almost 2 years.
[41:34] Um and he says, "This is my reminder to
[41:36] not give up cuz someone cares."
[41:39] >> I think I've either heard you say or
[41:41] read
[41:42] in one of your blogs
[41:45] this idea that one of the hardest things
[41:47] for some of these kids and families
[41:51] is that this is all man-made.
[41:53] >> Yes.
[41:54] >> Okay, this is not a natural disaster.
[41:58] This is something that has been created
[42:00] by man, and therefore can be stopped and
[42:04] uncreated by man.
[42:06] >> Yes.
[42:08] >> Is that one of the reasons why
[42:11] these letters
[42:13] prove so powerful?
[42:15] >> Yes.
[42:16] Because
[42:17] the children know. The children know
[42:20] that none of this is an accident, that
[42:23] all of this is man-made and
[42:25] strategically created to erase the
[42:28] history. One of one of my patients said
[42:30] to me, "They've taken from me my past
[42:32] and my future.
[42:33] I have no photos left. I have no
[42:35] memories left. I have nothing to hang on
[42:37] to. And then my future, I have no rights
[42:40] as, you know, a refugee. And And what do
[42:43] I live for?" And so, these letters are
[42:45] so powerful for that reason.
[42:47] Um
[42:49] I don't know if you've you've heard me
[42:51] talk about this one patient of mine who
[42:53] really
[42:55] who really challenged all of us um
[42:57] 10 years old
[42:59] going on 45 and just you know we call
[43:02] him the Mukhtar which means the mayor
[43:04] because every therapy session he sits
[43:06] like this and you know
[43:08] it was almost just a lecture we call it
[43:10] the khutbah yani in Arabic he he is like
[43:13] a lecture and at first I thought that he
[43:14] was you know parroting some political
[43:16] commentary from his father but then I
[43:18] met his father who's an artist and he
[43:19] couldn't care less about politics it
[43:21] really was just his own analysis of the
[43:23] media
[43:24] >> [snorts]
[43:24] >> and he said to me once he said
[43:27] doctora
[43:28] he was like I have decided
[43:30] he was like
[43:32] the way in which people see us as
[43:34] Palestinians
[43:35] is that they think we are cockroaches
[43:38] because everyone in the world has agreed
[43:40] that when you see a cockroach you run
[43:41] after it and you kill it
[43:43] and no one feels bad about it
[43:46] and he said
[43:48] but doctora I need you to answer a
[43:50] question for me
[43:52] because this is at the height of the
[43:53] full starvation he was like I have never
[43:55] seen anyone try to starve a cockroach so
[43:58] why starve us
[44:00] he's 10
[44:03] these are things he's thinking about you
[44:04] know
[44:05] and
[44:07] and so the understanding is really an
[44:09] existential question for these children
[44:11] to say if the world does not want us
[44:13] alive and doesn't think we deserve to
[44:16] what do we live for
[44:17] and so therapy is more than just tell me
[44:20] how you're feeling you know it's way
[44:22] more than that it's it's really saying
[44:25] what is it that you need right now to
[44:28] be able to believe in yourself in this
[44:30] moment to put the next foot forward um
[44:34] and just to say that I can't fix the
[44:36] world for you but I can be here for you
[44:39] um while you figure it out
[44:43] >> You mentioned before that
[44:46] healing for Gaza are recruiting for
[44:48] clinicians
[44:52] there's many clinicians who listen to
[44:55] this podcast. I imagine some of them may
[44:57] be thinking, well, I'd like to help, but
[44:59] I don't know
[45:00] >> Mhm.
[45:01] >> if I've got the necessary skills. So,
[45:04] what kinds of clinicians are you looking
[45:07] for?
[45:07] >> Mhm.
[45:08] So, we have psychotherapists,
[45:10] psychologists, um psychiatrists,
[45:12] clinical social workers on our team. Um
[45:15] Our requirement is that you have 10
[45:17] years of clinical experience.
[45:19] That you have some sort of you know,
[45:22] that you're a licensed and qualified
[45:24] clinician, that you have 10 years of
[45:25] clinical experience, and that you also
[45:27] have some sort of trauma specialization
[45:29] already. So, whether that is having
[45:32] taken a certification on it, or that
[45:35] your work has been with people who have
[45:37] been war affected, or have you know,
[45:39] um experienced victim, you know, are
[45:40] victims of sexual violence, or of
[45:42] trauma, or of torture, or um
[45:45] some of our
[45:46] um most the clinicians who connect most
[45:48] with our with um
[45:49] our patients have worked with indigenous
[45:51] communities, for example, who have
[45:52] experienced displacement and
[45:54] dispossession. Um so, that's our that's
[45:58] who we are looking for. But also, I
[46:00] think um
[46:02] people who understand the importance,
[46:04] and are open-minded to understanding
[46:06] that we're going to have to do a lot of
[46:08] unlearning together.
[46:10] So, because a everything that we have
[46:12] been taught about trauma,
[46:14] at least in the global north, centers
[46:17] around the concept of PTSD, which is
[46:19] post-traumatic stress disorder. But that
[46:21] was a that was a term that was coined in
[46:23] the '70s to describe the experience of
[46:26] an American soldier coming back from
[46:27] war. And the flashbacks and the
[46:30] night terrors that he was experiencing
[46:32] while in safety.
[46:34] >> Mhm.
[46:34] >> PTSD assumes safety, and so the
[46:36] therapeutic um approaches that we have
[46:39] been taught mostly assume safety.
[46:41] >> Yeah.
[46:42] >> But if you try to apply those approaches
[46:44] to someone who needs to survive, for
[46:46] example, hypervigilance or dissociation,
[46:48] these are protective mechanisms that
[46:49] your brain activates when you are in a
[46:53] place where you need to be able to
[46:54] survive and not experience overwhelm.
[46:57] So, for example, trying to down regulate
[46:59] the hyper vigilance could actually get
[47:01] someone into real trouble if they're not
[47:02] reacting fast enough to to the far sound
[47:05] of a missile, for example.
[47:07] Um
[47:07] so, the openness to unlearn with us and
[47:11] to learn anew um is what we ask.
[47:14] >> Yeah. One of the most profound things
[47:17] I reflected on is
[47:20] literally what you just said, that we
[47:21] assume safety
[47:22] >> Yes.
[47:23] >> when we're talking about how we manage
[47:24] PTSD. And of course, if you're in a war
[47:26] zone, there's no safety.
[47:29] So, therefore, what of our therapeutic
[47:32] interventions are still valid
[47:35] in that backdrop?
[47:37] >> So, I'll give you a couple examples that
[47:39] have actually, you know, popped up in
[47:41] our training. Um humming, for instance,
[47:45] is one of the um ways to help um
[47:48] regulate when you are triggered.
[47:51] >> Yeah, and stimulate the vagus nerve,
[47:52] right?
[47:53] >> Precisely. And uh often it's uh helpful
[47:56] to do it in group as well um
[47:58] cuz you feel you you are co-regulating
[48:00] with others. But humming sounds like
[48:02] drones.
[48:05] >> [sighs]
[48:07] >> You know?
[48:08] So, trying that would just really be so
[48:11] scary for everyone.
[48:12] >> And is that Have you witnessed that
[48:13] happen?
[48:14] >> I have witnessed that happen in other
[48:15] contexts and it's it's, you know, quite
[48:17] remarkable. And and so, the learning has
[48:19] to come really quick to say, "Okay, you
[48:21] know, [clears throat] that is unsafe and
[48:23] not appropriate and how to regulate from
[48:25] that moment of being triggered also."
[48:28] >> Wow.
[48:28] >> Um yes.
[48:30] So, that is something that we've taught
[48:32] our clinicians, for instance. Um
[48:35] another example is uh you know,
[48:37] dissociation happens when your mind is
[48:39] overwhelmed and cannot be really in
[48:41] touch even with your body um
[48:44] to
[48:45] uh to experience the physical pain that
[48:46] you're in because so many people have
[48:47] injuries or have, you know, have have
[48:49] been amputees and so forth. Um so, even
[48:52] some breathing exercises um can be
[48:55] overwhelming. So, Alicia Sky, who um um,
[48:58] the co-founder of of Trauma Research
[49:00] Foundation, has actually come on mission
[49:01] with us several times, and she's
[49:03] extraordinary and has been, you know,
[49:07] um, really sees our patients where they
[49:09] are.
[49:10] And just as we teach in our curriculum,
[49:13] she says, "Slow, slow, slow." Moving too
[49:15] fast is one of the one of the dangers of
[49:17] the ways in which, um, sort of
[49:19] traditional therapy.
[49:22] And she all she does is she gets the
[49:24] women to put their feet both feet on the
[49:26] floor
[49:27] and breathe
[49:29] and the tears come.
[49:31] And sometimes that's all they can
[49:33] handle, but that's sometimes exactly
[49:34] what they need.
[49:36] >> You mentioned that
[49:40] sometimes because of the severe trauma
[49:42] and the and the injuries that they're
[49:43] facing, there's this sort of disconnect
[49:45] where they're not actually feeling pain.
[49:47] >> Uh-huh.
[49:47] >> Which reminds me of Dr. Howard
[49:49] Schubiner, who's a chronic pain
[49:51] specialist. I'm sure you know Howard's
[49:53] work and
[49:54] this idea that it's the brain that
[49:57] creates pain.
[49:58] >> Yes.
[50:00] >> So, these people are in a very unsafe
[50:02] environment.
[50:05] If they were to really experience the
[50:07] pain that their injuries would result in
[50:10] them feeling,
[50:12] it could be disabling. It could mean
[50:14] they can't move. They can't get on with
[50:16] what needs to be done.
[50:18] >> out half the time.
[50:20] >> Yeah, so the brain doesn't allow the
[50:22] pain to be experienced.
[50:25] So, therefore,
[50:28] a breathing exercise that completely
[50:30] down regulates you,
[50:32] >> Uh-huh.
[50:33] >> so that your body thinks it's safe,
[50:37] >> Yeah.
[50:38] >> even though you're not actually safe
[50:40] because there's an ongoing war,
[50:42] that could be problematic. That's what
[50:44] you're saying, right? I've never really
[50:45] thought about it like that.
[50:46] >> It puts you too much in touch with with
[50:48] that which your body and your mind is
[50:50] not ready to
[50:51] to to acknowledge.
[50:53] >> But how do you guys as therapists
[50:56] even know
[50:58] how far can I down regulate this human?
[51:00] Because these guys are activated up
[51:02] here. I know it's not linear like this,
[51:04] right? They're they're on a nine out of
[51:06] 10 activation.
[51:08] If I was to bring them down to one or
[51:09] two, it would be too much. Maybe it's
[51:12] more appropriate just to bring them down
[51:13] to an eight or a seven.
[51:15] Is that just experience?
[51:17] >> Some of it is definitely experience
[51:19] [clears throat]
[51:19] and that's part of why we recruit for
[51:21] clinicians who have that much, you know,
[51:22] that many years of experience. And some
[51:24] of it is just life experience also, you
[51:26] know, that you have to have been through
[51:28] quite a bit of life and your own traumas
[51:29] and and your own difficulties and seeing
[51:31] how that, you know, the ups and downs of
[51:34] that in order to be able to carry
[51:35] someone else's extreme grief. But
[51:37] exactly as you're saying, how do you
[51:39] know some of it is actually
[51:42] just just getting out of the habit of
[51:44] applying a one-size-fits-all approach.
[51:47] And really being humble and saying, "I'm
[51:49] not going to know and I need I will I
[51:52] need to find out." And the only way that
[51:54] I will know is by working with my
[51:57] patient, not working at my patient if
[51:59] that makes sense.
[52:00] >> And and maybe your patient is the one
[52:02] who's going to tell you.
[52:03] >> Yes. That's what I meant about trust the
[52:04] children earlier on. Trust them to tell
[52:07] you. And so the work is actually about
[52:09] building trust more than it is offering
[52:12] a therapy, especially early on. And the
[52:15] other is in, you know, as we try to
[52:17] widen the window of tolerance little by
[52:19] little. You know, I've had experiences
[52:21] where the patients are like, "Okay,
[52:24] the horn of us like to hear and and stop
[52:26] because I can't really do much more."
[52:28] And she actually said to me, she said,
[52:30] "With you I can do more." But she said,
[52:32] "But with the rest of the world when I
[52:33] step back out into the world, I can't."
[52:35] So I cannot have too much contrast
[52:37] between how safe I can be with you and
[52:40] how unsafe I am outside. And that was
[52:44] also a lesson to say let's not not put
[52:46] her through the too much of a of an
[52:48] extreme experience as well.
[52:49] >> Yeah.
[52:50] >> Um but I think just my last point on
[52:52] that is that
[52:55] also to give the patient's agency very
[52:58] up front. I'm very clear when I start
[53:00] with anyone. I say that this is going to
[53:02] be 50/50. You may see me as the expert
[53:05] as the doctor or the but I'm in this
[53:07] with you 50/50 which means that if at
[53:10] any point something doesn't feel right,
[53:12] you tell me because you're going to know
[53:14] that best. My commitment to you is that
[53:17] I will respond to that, that I won't
[53:18] dismiss it or not hear it.
[53:20] >> I just love hearing this sort of stuff.
[53:22] Um
[53:25] again the universality of what you've
[53:26] just said for me is really quite
[53:28] profound.
[53:30] You said about building trust and how
[53:32] important that is.
[53:34] I run a course where I teach clinicians
[53:36] and doctors and all kinds of health care
[53:38] professionals
[53:40] how to apply what I call the principles
[53:43] of lifestyle medicine with their
[53:44] patients.
[53:45] And one of the things I teach on that
[53:47] course is I say the the the four most
[53:49] important words I think I've I've
[53:51] learned in my entire clinical career
[53:54] are connect first, educate second.
[53:58] Right?
[53:58] >> 100%.
[53:59] >> I and I'm not talking about in a war
[54:01] setting.
[54:02] >> Just anywhere.
[54:03] >> Just but that's the human need, isn't
[54:04] it? Connect first, educate second. When
[54:06] they know how much you care, then
[54:09] they're interested in what you know. But
[54:10] without that first bit, and it's really
[54:13] quite thought-provoking for me to think
[54:15] about that in the context of war, it's
[54:17] the same principle. [clears throat]
[54:20] Right? The other principle that I think
[54:22] applies beyond that is this 50/50
[54:25] partnership approach which is we're
[54:28] going to do this together. I'm not the
[54:29] expert telling you what to do. You In
[54:32] fact, you're probably more of an expert
[54:34] in in certain areas than even than than
[54:36] I am even though I've got the
[54:37] qualifications.
[54:38] >> Absolutely.
[54:39] >> And would you say that
[54:41] you've learned that
[54:43] over the years through making mistakes
[54:46] in this
[54:47] >> Absolutely.
[54:48] >> Absolutely. [clears throat]
[54:50] And I think that some of my best, you
[54:52] know, teachers have been children who
[54:54] are very outspoken and, you know, who
[54:57] have taught me, who have really sort of
[54:59] been convicting in in in helping me
[55:02] understand that I have a lot of
[55:04] unlearning also decolonizing, you know,
[55:06] to to do in this work. Um
[55:08] I give you a small example. There's this
[55:10] one boy in
[55:11] refugee camp in Lebanon.
[55:14] Who
[55:15] had this extraordinary just he had
[55:17] learned English from Disney Channel. So
[55:19] he spoke very you know a disarmingly
[55:22] American English
[55:24] and wanted to sort of show off but also
[55:26] practice with all the foreigners who
[55:28] would come through the camp and
[55:31] and he would hang out with me all the
[55:32] time and
[55:34] in the office and once there was a human
[55:35] that came and was doing and he was he
[55:38] hopped off to to to meet them and to
[55:41] help them translate. And I was like you
[55:44] know have fun
[55:46] and then he came back and he was in the
[55:47] foulest mood. He had threw himself onto
[55:50] the desk you know opposite me and his
[55:52] legs were dangling.
[55:53] I was like what happened
[55:55] you know what's wrong and he says to me
[55:58] he was like all you foreigners he was
[56:01] like all you care is to call us
[56:02] resilient resilient resilient.
[56:05] And he was like
[56:07] do you know do you know what that means
[56:10] he was like you just want to
[56:12] you just want to say that we are
[56:13] resilient so that you can feel good that
[56:16] you can feel okay about all the
[56:18] that has happened to us.
[56:21] My God.
[56:22] He was like that's for you that's not
[56:24] for us you know and he said but do you
[56:27] know what it means to be resilient?
[56:29] That
[56:30] it means this is why my father has heart
[56:32] problems this is why my mother has
[56:33] diabetic you know at a very early age
[56:36] the resilience comes at a cost.
[56:40] And so you know as a 10 11 year old
[56:43] Saleh really taught me and at the time I
[56:45] was writing my you know dissertation I
[56:46] was looking for the word resilient
[56:48] throughout it where had I used it
[56:50] presumably in a way that was trying to
[56:52] respect and to you know show my
[56:54] admiration for it but without carrying
[56:56] the weight of what it why do they have
[56:58] to be resilient?
[57:00] And what does it take to continually be
[57:01] resilient for a lifetime and for
[57:03] generations? It does come at a cost. The
[57:06] static load on the daily is huge but
[57:08] also the non-communicable diseases you
[57:11] know, any of the UN agencies will tell
[57:13] you are remarkably high in these in
[57:15] these communities as a result.
[57:17] So, you know, when some sometimes
[57:21] um
[57:22] one of my friends all um who's a
[57:24] documentary filmmaker asked me, he was
[57:26] like, "Why are you doing this?"
[57:28] And I said, "At some level, I'm trying
[57:29] to protect these kids' DNA."
[57:32] Because our DNA methylates to to
[57:35] survive, right? And to to evolve with
[57:37] what what it takes for us to survive,
[57:39] but when it the load is so extreme,
[57:42] things that we hold precious and dear to
[57:45] us that are in our DNA about how we
[57:48] behave and how we are as humans to one
[57:50] another can get lost when you just have
[57:52] to physically focus on surviving. And it
[57:55] really struck me when one of my patients
[57:57] during the height of starvation, she
[57:58] said to me,
[58:00] "I cannot give
[58:02] my last can of tuna to my neighbor."
[58:05] She says, "Do you know how ab- Do you
[58:06] know how shameful that is that I cannot
[58:08] be hospitable in the way that we should
[58:10] be as Palestinians?" She said, "But I
[58:12] can't. I have to feed my children."
[58:15] And she said, "And I she said, I'm
[58:17] afraid that that will change me as a
[58:19] person. That will change the way that we
[58:21] are as a family, as a community, as a
[58:22] society. We can no longer give and take
[58:24] care of one another because so much has
[58:26] been taken away from us."
[58:29] And she thanked me in that moment
[58:31] because she said,
[58:34] "You have given me a gift that I can
[58:36] give others in this moment, which is
[58:37] that I can tell someone else to sign up
[58:39] for therapy.
[58:41] I can tell them that there was someone
[58:43] who will be on the other end of the line
[58:44] who will listen to you and your
[58:45] suffering and your trauma and not judge
[58:48] you and not share it with anyone else
[58:50] and will hold that for you
[58:52] and maybe help you
[58:54] make the next mo- hour, the next moment,
[58:57] the next day a bit easier." And she
[58:59] said, "Thank you for giving me something
[59:01] that I can give someone else because I
[59:02] can't give anything else."
[59:06] >> Given those conversations,
[59:09] and given everything that you've seen
[59:10] and witnessed over the years,
[59:13] how do you think about the word
[59:15] resilience today?
[59:19] >> [sighs]
[59:20] >> I think resilience is is essential part
[59:23] of what makes us human and what allows
[59:25] us to overcome.
[59:28] But I caution against over simplifying
[59:30] it.
[59:32] Um or just taking it for granted.
[59:35] Um
[59:37] resilience
[59:39] needs to come with an understanding of
[59:41] what the cost looks like.
[59:43] And it also needs to come
[59:45] with the understanding that resilience
[59:47] in a in a contained moment is different
[59:49] from the resilience that has to happen
[59:52] across a lifetime.
[59:54] Some of that just then becomes pure
[59:55] injustice.
[59:59] And that
[1:00:01] that all of us are complicit if we just
[1:00:04] say, "Oh, they're wonderfully resilient.
[1:00:07] Bravo to them."
[1:00:08] But then do nothing to try to change the
[1:00:10] injustices that
[1:00:12] forces them to be resilient in the first
[1:00:14] place.
[1:00:15] So
[1:00:16] um
[1:00:18] I think that all of us have a
[1:00:21] have one, I think those especially of us
[1:00:23] who have the privilege of learning about
[1:00:25] our own resilience mechanisms
[1:00:27] should do that not just for ourselves
[1:00:28] but then understanding
[1:00:30] what is it going to take for someone who
[1:00:32] has to be resilient every day to be able
[1:00:35] to rest,
[1:00:37] to be able to recover,
[1:00:39] to be able to heal, to be able to be
[1:00:41] creative again, to be able to be
[1:00:43] expansive, um and to be able to be the
[1:00:46] fullest versions of themselves,
[1:00:48] um
[1:00:49] and really put our energy and our
[1:00:51] privilege in that behind that and in
[1:00:53] that direction.
[1:00:56] It doesn't erase the fact that they will
[1:00:58] have to be resilient, but it means that
[1:00:59] there will be possibility.
[1:01:02] >> A couple of times in this conversation
[1:01:03] the word guilt
[1:01:05] has come up.
[1:01:07] Guilt you used in the context of the
[1:01:10] little girl, wasn't it? Whose whose dad
[1:01:12] protected her vital organs but died in
[1:01:15] doing so.
[1:01:17] You also mentioned
[1:01:19] one of your grandmothers before.
[1:01:22] And I think it's a very nice little
[1:01:25] anecdote about what she taught you
[1:01:27] about guilt. So, can you speak to guilt
[1:01:29] a little bit and and cuz I think it must
[1:01:30] come up in your work all the time.
[1:01:32] >> Always.
[1:01:33] >> And you know, what is that guilt? Is it
[1:01:35] is it well-placed? Is it problematic?
[1:01:38] And and how do you deal with it
[1:01:41] yourself?
[1:01:41] >> Yeah.
[1:01:44] You know how people say that grief is
[1:01:46] the evidence you have the depth of your
[1:01:48] grief is the evidence of how much you
[1:01:50] loved someone.
[1:01:53] I think in cultures where we are
[1:01:57] you know, we understand the concept of
[1:01:59] of Ubuntu that I am because you are.
[1:02:02] The guilt is a reflection of actually
[1:02:04] how connected we feel with one another.
[1:02:07] And how much we understand that how we
[1:02:09] are is affecting others.
[1:02:11] Um
[1:02:12] so, while it can very much be
[1:02:15] paralyzing, especially for those who
[1:02:17] have made it out or who have survived in
[1:02:21] ways that those dear to them haven't,
[1:02:24] it is there because they care.
[1:02:27] And one of
[1:02:29] one of my patients who was very
[1:02:31] challenging cuz she's very sharp. She's
[1:02:33] brilliant.
[1:02:35] She says to me,
[1:02:38] "Don't try to take away my guilt."
[1:02:40] She says, "It's what It's what keeps me
[1:02:42] connected." She said, "You should be
[1:02:43] worried if I'm not guilty because then
[1:02:45] I'll have iced over and I don't care."
[1:02:50] So, even then guilt doesn't, you know,
[1:02:55] is is not so simple.
[1:02:57] But I also we also have patients who
[1:02:59] have eating disorders because they are
[1:03:01] guilty to eat when their family back in
[1:03:03] Gaza has nothing to eat, right?
[1:03:06] Now, with Lara,
[1:03:07] the 7-year-old dancer,
[1:03:09] >> [clears throat]
[1:03:10] >> it was understanding that her father,
[1:03:12] just exactly as he said, "Baba would not
[1:03:14] want you to carry that guilt. That's not
[1:03:17] That was not his wish for you, that
[1:03:18] eventually managed to help her to move
[1:03:20] past that and to be able to carry the
[1:03:23] responsibility without the guilt, to
[1:03:25] separate the two.
[1:03:27] Um and to be proud of the ways that in
[1:03:29] which she was fulfilling, you know, his
[1:03:31] wish um without feeling guilty for the
[1:03:34] ways in which were just completely
[1:03:35] naturally impossible.
[1:03:37] Um
[1:03:39] but there
[1:03:40] it was so interesting you bring up my
[1:03:41] grandmother because she was actually the
[1:03:43] one who sat me down. We were having
[1:03:46] afternoon tea in Hong Kong at some nice
[1:03:48] hotel um as we do
[1:03:51] and just in the middle of conversation,
[1:03:53] you know, some some some gossip and
[1:03:55] laughter and talk about fashion or what
[1:03:57] have you. She She just sort of changed
[1:03:58] the subject and she said to me out of
[1:04:00] the blue she said, "Do not feel guilty
[1:04:02] for your privilege."
[1:04:04] She said, "Do not let your guilt get in
[1:04:06] the way. Don't waste your time feeling
[1:04:08] guilty." She said, "Because you could
[1:04:10] lose all of this privilege in a second."
[1:04:14] She said So that the fact that you are
[1:04:16] safe, the fact that you have resources,
[1:04:18] the fact that you are educated, the fact
[1:04:20] that you are healthy, she said, "Use
[1:04:22] those. Use those to help the others who
[1:04:25] can't.
[1:04:26] Because at some point you might lose
[1:04:28] that, but don't waste time
[1:04:31] feeling guilty."
[1:04:32] >> Mhm.
[1:04:35] Yeah, it's so poignant hearing that.
[1:04:37] I'm
[1:04:39] really interested as to how this work
[1:04:43] has affected you personally.
[1:04:45] >> Mhm.
[1:04:47] >> You've seen so much, you've experienced
[1:04:49] so much. You probably seen things that
[1:04:50] you never wanted to see.
[1:04:51] >> Definitely.
[1:04:52] >> Right? But you have seen them.
[1:04:54] >> Mhm.
[1:04:55] >> [snorts]
[1:04:56] >> So how has it changed you?
[1:04:57] >> Mhm.
[1:05:01] I think it's made me very grateful
[1:05:04] for what I have, but also in awe.
[1:05:09] Just
[1:05:11] every day is a humbling experience. It's
[1:05:14] I am in so much awe of every little one
[1:05:17] that I work with because the courage
[1:05:20] that it takes for them to show up every
[1:05:21] day is beyond what I think I could do,
[1:05:24] you know?
[1:05:26] But not just the courage, you know, they
[1:05:28] are
[1:05:29] loving and gentle and and and funny and
[1:05:33] you know, so sweet and I just [laughter]
[1:05:37] sort of love like, well, you know, when
[1:05:39] I've had a bad day I'm rather irritable
[1:05:41] and you know, and you've been through
[1:05:43] the the biggest trauma of the world and
[1:05:45] you still run to me a complete stranger
[1:05:47] and hug me, you know? And still share
[1:05:49] your biscuits with others and
[1:05:52] you know, all the excuses we give
[1:05:53] ourselves for bad behavior, these
[1:05:55] children sort of knock it out of the
[1:05:56] water and they just, you know, they
[1:05:58] they're just like, no, you know, they
[1:06:00] are responding to so much hate and
[1:06:02] violence with so much love and so I'm in
[1:06:04] awe.
[1:06:06] But the other piece of it is the
[1:06:09] I've had to dig in myself
[1:06:12] so much more space for
[1:06:15] both the darkness and the light. And so
[1:06:18] I've said it's to my team that the
[1:06:20] challenge I think and I think also of
[1:06:22] this generation if we want to be in
[1:06:24] touch with the world, not just our iPads
[1:06:26] and not just with our AI and not just
[1:06:28] with, you know, um, sort of
[1:06:31] cancel culture if you will in terms of
[1:06:33] deciding what doesn't serve us but
[1:06:35] really be in touch with the fullness of
[1:06:36] the world is to
[1:06:39] to create and deepen our capacities for
[1:06:44] both the rage and the rest.
[1:06:47] Both the love but also the but also the
[1:06:50] the calling out of the injustice and the
[1:06:52] outrage that we have to make and I've
[1:06:55] had to dig
[1:06:57] and I I think like the Arabic word
[1:06:59] hafad, like I've really had to dig the
[1:07:01] the the capacity to hold both the light
[1:07:03] and the dark.
[1:07:05] Not one or the other.
[1:07:06] I think when I especially when I was
[1:07:08] working in purely humanitarian spaces, a
[1:07:11] lot of it would be just the darkness
[1:07:13] that one would hold and that can lead to
[1:07:16] despair and, you know, coping mechanisms
[1:07:18] like alcoholism and so forth. Um, and I
[1:07:21] saw that and I was very wary of it.
[1:07:24] >> Mhm.
[1:07:24] >> And so, I leaned very much into the
[1:07:26] goodness and making it an active habit
[1:07:29] to also see the goodness that is there,
[1:07:31] whether it's of my colleagues, or
[1:07:32] whether it is of these extraordinary
[1:07:34] children and and front-liners
[1:07:37] who are
[1:07:38] who are who are teaching us new ways of
[1:07:40] being human.
[1:07:41] Um
[1:07:42] so, I have been so privileged to learn
[1:07:45] so much in that.
[1:07:46] Uh, but I also I remember coming back
[1:07:50] from my first rotation and my advisor at
[1:07:53] Harvard
[1:07:54] um, I I met up with him. He had taught
[1:07:57] me all throughout undergraduate and was
[1:07:58] my advisor as a graduate student as
[1:08:00] well. He took one look at me and he
[1:08:02] said,
[1:08:03] "You've seen things."
[1:08:06] And this is after I'd really been
[1:08:08] working with
[1:08:10] child torture victims, people who'd
[1:08:12] pulled out their fingernails and done
[1:08:13] horrific things to them, and he said,
[1:08:15] "You've seen things."
[1:08:17] And I said, "I have."
[1:08:20] And
[1:08:21] he would say, "Well, now the work is to
[1:08:24] not let it darken your soul."
[1:08:27] He said, "But it's a choice."
[1:08:29] So, I've had to make, I think, some very
[1:08:32] intentional choices over the years.
[1:08:34] Cuz otherwise, it's very easy just to
[1:08:36] spiral and be very cynical. But when
[1:08:39] you're cynical, you cannot be in the
[1:08:40] business of of healing.
[1:08:45] >> How often do you cry in your work?
[1:08:47] >> Oh, all the time.
[1:08:48] I'd be worried if I didn't. The mental
[1:08:51] health of my team is an absolute
[1:08:53] priority. Um so, every single clinician
[1:08:56] on our team must be in their own
[1:08:58] therapy. If they don't have their own
[1:08:59] therapist, we organize for that. They
[1:09:01] must be in monthly supervision, clinical
[1:09:03] supervision, um, where they're sharing
[1:09:05] in group, you know, it's really peer
[1:09:07] support about cases that they're
[1:09:08] struggling with, or impacts that they've
[1:09:10] had, you know, as a result of of working
[1:09:13] with someone. And if they want
[1:09:14] individual supervision, they can ask for
[1:09:16] it as well. But these are requirements
[1:09:18] as part of being on our team, on our
[1:09:21] clinical team. But also, our core team,
[1:09:23] our clinical clinical coordinators, um
[1:09:27] must all, you know, are are are offered,
[1:09:29] um, their own therapy.
[1:09:31] It is on us whether it is picking a
[1:09:33] clinician from the team that they're not
[1:09:34] directly working with or, um, or
[1:09:37] choosing their own therapist whom we
[1:09:39] support. Uh, because if you become cold
[1:09:43] and shut off to this work, you are are
[1:09:45] actually harming the people who would
[1:09:46] depend on you to be able to hold that
[1:09:48] space and that the expansiveness of that
[1:09:50] space for them.
[1:09:51] >> Yeah.
[1:09:52] >> Um, [snorts]
[1:09:53] which means,
[1:09:54] um,
[1:09:56] that
[1:09:58] crying is absolutely important. The
[1:09:59] body, subhan Allah, is incredible, you
[1:10:01] know, so much of the way in which we
[1:10:03] release when we release pain is through
[1:10:05] crying, is through sweating, and through
[1:10:07] peeing. So, if you're not hitting the
[1:10:08] gym quite a lot and if you're and, um,
[1:10:11] when I oh when I received my training,
[1:10:13] one of the things that we were told as
[1:10:15] therapists was to you're supposed to
[1:10:16] drink 4 L of water a day,
[1:10:18] >> Wow.
[1:10:18] >> um, to be able to process all of, you
[1:10:21] know, the negative energy that you were
[1:10:22] you were that you were absorb-
[1:10:23] absorbing.
[1:10:24] >> specifically for war therapy?
[1:10:25] >> Yeah, well, was no, it was trauma
[1:10:27] therapy, just even with beyond war. So,
[1:10:29] even just the the working as a trauma
[1:10:31] therapist, you should be hydrating and
[1:10:33] that doesn't ca- caffeine and and so on,
[1:10:35] just pure water.
[1:10:36] >> I never heard that before.
[1:10:37] >> Yes, and, um, I learned this at SPI,
[1:10:40] actually, and
[1:10:41] >> SPI?
[1:10:41] >> um, Sensory Motor, um, Psychotherapy
[1:10:43] Institute, um, founded by Pat Ogden. And
[1:10:46] I was quite amazed, I just, you know,
[1:10:48] uh, but have really carried that
[1:10:49] practice into my work. Um, but the other
[1:10:52] part of it is crying and so if for years
[1:10:55] now, if anyone on my team showed up and
[1:10:57] I could tell that they were just numbed
[1:10:59] over,
[1:11:00] they were required to go home, they're
[1:11:01] not allowed to be at work, but their
[1:11:03] homework is that I have a list of sob
[1:11:05] movies
[1:11:06] >> [laughter]
[1:11:07] >> and they have to pick one and they have
[1:11:09] to watch it and they have to go cry
[1:11:10] their eyes out, okay? And then they come
[1:11:13] back with a bit of a book report
[1:11:15] >> Wow. [laughter]
[1:11:16] >> and tell me what what about the film.
[1:11:17] >> So, you know they watched it.
[1:11:18] >> know they've watched it. I mean,
[1:11:20] nowadays, they can just Google it, but
[1:11:21] >> AI summary. Can tell you, "Hey, yeah, I
[1:11:23] did watch it. It was uh these are the
[1:11:24] four key points in the film."
[1:11:26] >> Well, I'll be able to tell. I'll be able
[1:11:27] to look at, you know, at them and know
[1:11:29] if they had that actually cried it all
[1:11:30] out because the hardening of of the
[1:11:33] heart is really one of the scariest
[1:11:35] things to happen to anyone who's a
[1:11:36] healer. You can't, you know, but the
[1:11:39] there are mechanisms to to release it.
[1:11:41] >> Anyone as a human.
[1:11:42] >> Exactly, you know.
[1:11:43] >> Beyond healer, you know, the hardening
[1:11:45] of the heart, closing your heart.
[1:11:46] >> Makes us robots.
[1:11:47] >> Makes us robots, doesn't it?
[1:11:50] >> So.
[1:11:50] >> that you
[1:11:52] direct them to sad films so that they
[1:11:55] can cry.
[1:11:57] And I think that probably echoes
[1:11:58] people's own experience when, let's say,
[1:12:01] they're in deep emotional pain or going
[1:12:03] through a breakup, right? They don't
[1:12:05] actually want a happy song.
[1:12:07] They want a sad song. They want to hear
[1:12:09] lyrics that speak to that so they know
[1:12:12] that they're not alone in that pain.
[1:12:15] >> feel seen in that moment.
[1:12:16] >> Yeah.
[1:12:17] >> And then be able to release it without
[1:12:18] judgment.
[1:12:19] >> That again, you mentioned about the um
[1:12:22] the benefits of dance before, that
[1:12:23] creative expression, that the movements.
[1:12:28] This is where art comes in, right? And
[1:12:30] music can and film
[1:12:32] >> Yeah.
[1:12:32] >> can be incredibly healing. The right
[1:12:34] film, the right piece of art at the
[1:12:36] right time can be incredibly healing.
[1:12:38] >> Yeah.
[1:12:39] >> Oh, Alexandra, we're here in Oxford.
[1:12:41] You're here for the Master's Trauma
[1:12:42] Conference, I think.
[1:12:43] >> Yes.
[1:12:44] >> And uh
[1:12:45] because we're in Oxford here, there
[1:12:46] there's a couple of things that that
[1:12:48] that have popped into my mind, right?
[1:12:49] One is
[1:12:52] you gave a talk at this
[1:12:54] trauma conference last year.
[1:12:57] So, question one relating to Oxford is
[1:13:01] how was that talk received?
[1:13:04] And
[1:13:06] in the Q&As afterwards or when people
[1:13:08] were talking to you afterwards, were
[1:13:10] there certain things that people were
[1:13:11] saying that surprised you?
[1:13:14] >> You know,
[1:13:16] I
[1:13:18] every time I've spoken at Oxford, I have
[1:13:20] been so moved by the by the compassion
[1:13:24] of everyone.
[1:13:27] Because sometimes I think maybe I also
[1:13:29] feel like the children
[1:13:31] that the world has let them suffer
[1:13:34] and that no one cares.
[1:13:36] Now, we are a self-selecting bunch at
[1:13:38] the at the trauma conference,
[1:13:41] but it you know, when I spoke last year,
[1:13:44] um
[1:13:46] I received a standing ovation not for
[1:13:48] me, but for I think the voices of the
[1:13:49] children who have had to be so brave and
[1:13:51] the the the stories that I told. But to
[1:13:54] see them respond to the these children's
[1:13:57] lives
[1:13:58] was deeply moving for me.
[1:14:00] Um because it means that they still care
[1:14:03] and that people who still want to make
[1:14:04] this right
[1:14:05] um and not just sort of
[1:14:08] take it as the status quo.
[1:14:10] Um
[1:14:12] I think some of the things that have
[1:14:13] maybe surprised me in the responses
[1:14:17] has been the level to which people
[1:14:19] thought it was impossible to make a
[1:14:21] difference.
[1:14:22] >> Mhm.
[1:14:23] >> People were like, "Wow, you mean I don't
[1:14:25] have to go out there? I don't have to
[1:14:28] learn Arabic? I don't have to be war
[1:14:30] trauma specialized to join the team and
[1:14:32] and to do something?" I said, "Yes, we
[1:14:35] will provide the training. We will
[1:14:36] provide the container. We will provide
[1:14:38] all the mechanisms to do it. You just
[1:14:39] need to bring your commitment and your
[1:14:41] heart and your openness to do this. Um
[1:14:44] and and what you it's I suppose in some
[1:14:47] ways I'm realizing now it's my approach
[1:14:48] to therapy also is the 50/50. You know,
[1:14:50] you bring your part, we'll bring ours
[1:14:52] and that's the only way we can do it
[1:14:53] together.
[1:14:54] Um
[1:14:55] >> Mhm.
[1:14:56] >> But I think the other was
[1:15:02] I think I was a little bit surprised by
[1:15:03] how many people were shocked by the
[1:15:06] level of the children's suffering. I'm
[1:15:07] in it day in day out, so
[1:15:10] but we're also in an era where, you
[1:15:12] know,
[1:15:14] all of the suffering was live streamed
[1:15:16] and on from multiple fronts. So there's
[1:15:18] part of me that's just sort of like,
[1:15:20] "How do we not know?"
[1:15:21] But I think, you know, whether it's the
[1:15:23] algorithm or whether it's just overwhelm
[1:15:25] that that that leads us to be selective
[1:15:27] about it. Um you know, the information
[1:15:30] overwhelm is also very real. So
[1:15:33] uh finding ways for these stories to
[1:15:35] come through, that's why I'm so grateful
[1:15:37] to Masters of the Universe holding this
[1:15:39] conference for um inviting me to come
[1:15:41] speak because it gives a doorway of
[1:15:43] obviously I wish the children could
[1:15:44] speak for themselves, but it gives a
[1:15:46] doorway for their stories to be heard in
[1:15:48] a moment where it can that even the
[1:15:51] audience can be to feel safe enough to
[1:15:53] listen.
[1:15:55] >> It's really interesting that you were
[1:15:56] surprised by
[1:15:59] how little some people knew.
[1:16:01] >> Yeah.
[1:16:01] >> [gasps and sighs]
[1:16:03] >> I think people are switching off a
[1:16:05] little bit. You know, the human brain
[1:16:07] isn't designed to hear about all of the
[1:16:10] suffering that every single individual
[1:16:13] all over the world
[1:16:14] is struggling with.
[1:16:16] >> Absolutely.
[1:16:17] >> You know, on an evolutionary level, we
[1:16:19] probably only ever knew a max of 150
[1:16:21] people. And you probably didn't know
[1:16:22] everything about all 150.
[1:16:25] So, now to have this kind of uh trauma
[1:16:28] live stream, some people just don't
[1:16:30] watch or switch off.
[1:16:32] Some people hold the view that the news
[1:16:35] is toxic.
[1:16:36] >> Mhm.
[1:16:36] >> Right? And watching the news simply
[1:16:38] doesn't help me because me watching news
[1:16:40] makes me feel negative about the state
[1:16:42] of the world, makes me feel bad about
[1:16:43] myself, makes me feel guilty. I feel the
[1:16:46] whole world is just pointless. And it's
[1:16:48] one of the reasons I asked you to give
[1:16:49] exact examples before because even when
[1:16:52] we talk in generic language about, you
[1:16:54] know, there's war, there's displacement,
[1:16:59] those are still surface level terms that
[1:17:01] we hear the stories.
[1:17:02] >> Mhm.
[1:17:03] >> Then suddenly, you know, your heart is
[1:17:05] literally cracking and when you feel the
[1:17:08] pain.
[1:17:10] What's your take on that? So, that
[1:17:11] individual will say, "I don't want to
[1:17:12] watch. I don't want to know how bad it
[1:17:13] is because it doesn't help me."
[1:17:15] >> Oh.
[1:17:16] >> What do you say to them?
[1:17:18] >> I will say that one of the one of the
[1:17:21] dangerous things to happen
[1:17:23] to us as humans is when we feel an
[1:17:26] enormous amount of empathy
[1:17:28] and then we're faced with helpness
[1:17:30] helplessness. When there's no outlet for
[1:17:32] that empathy to be
[1:17:34] to actually transform into
[1:17:37] something that is good.
[1:17:38] >> Mhm.
[1:17:40] >> Feeling our own helplessness daily and
[1:17:43] powerlessness
[1:17:44] is very is quite literally dehumanizing.
[1:17:47] It's demoralizing and that's actually
[1:17:50] what people are turning away from.
[1:17:52] It's not just the horror of these
[1:17:54] things, which is overwhelming in its own
[1:17:56] right, but it is the feeling of
[1:17:59] powerlessness.
[1:18:00] It's a lot of why we I we started
[1:18:02] healing for Gaza to have an outlet of
[1:18:04] for the empathy to be channeled
[1:18:06] positively so that people would not be
[1:18:08] paralyzed by it this way.
[1:18:10] >> So they can do something. They can
[1:18:10] donate.
[1:18:11] >> Exactly. So they can do something. Yes,
[1:18:13] and they could donate in a place where
[1:18:15] they trust that the funds will actually
[1:18:17] go to the right people because there's a
[1:18:18] lot of anxiety in that space as well. In
[1:18:21] charity spaces in general, but also with
[1:18:23] Gaza being so shut off to the world, you
[1:18:25] know. And which I fully understand, but
[1:18:29] when you have a
[1:18:31] when you are constantly feeling that
[1:18:33] helplessness, that is very hard to keep
[1:18:34] coming back to. And of course, the brain
[1:18:36] is going to try to self-protect.
[1:18:39] But I think one of the troubles actually
[1:18:41] of going from print media to the to the
[1:18:43] overwhelmingly visual media that we have
[1:18:46] now
[1:18:47] is that the visuals are too much.
[1:18:49] >> Yeah.
[1:18:50] >> And so on my team, the way that we have
[1:18:53] tried to balance exactly this, the being
[1:18:55] able to protect your own mental health
[1:18:57] while also
[1:18:59] while also not being disconnected from
[1:19:01] reality is the two things. One is that I
[1:19:04] tell my team watch the videos, but
[1:19:06] without sound.
[1:19:09] Most of them have subtitles anyway, so
[1:19:11] if you're going to scroll and watch
[1:19:13] without sound, don't overwhelm the body
[1:19:16] cuz don't forget sound is actually the
[1:19:18] first the first um sense that we develop
[1:19:22] in the womb.
[1:19:23] Well, you know, and so that is the the
[1:19:26] sound of your mother's voice and and and
[1:19:28] the people around her. That that is your
[1:19:30] first knowledge of safety and so hearing
[1:19:32] people screaming and and and and in
[1:19:35] anguish and in agony is very difficult
[1:19:37] to take especially in large volumes. Um
[1:19:39] but the other is that on our team and
[1:19:42] one of my incredible, you know, I have
[1:19:45] an incredible core team um but one of
[1:19:47] them, Jenna, who's our program
[1:19:49] coordinator, she does a sit rep every um
[1:19:52] 2 weeks. Sit rep meaning situational
[1:19:54] report. This is a very UN term that
[1:19:56] we've borrowed. But where she takes all
[1:19:57] the news and she just
[1:20:00] consolidates it into writing.
[1:20:02] So that our entire team can be on top of
[1:20:04] all the news that is in English and in
[1:20:06] Arabic some which is not accessible to
[1:20:08] our non-Arabic speaking clinicians, but
[1:20:10] that they don't have to watch it. They
[1:20:12] can read about it and be on top of it.
[1:20:14] So walk responsibly by our patients so
[1:20:16] that they know what are the things that
[1:20:18] are happening to them without also
[1:20:20] compromising their own mental health.
[1:20:22] >> Wow.
[1:20:23] >> Yes. So there are ways around it, but we
[1:20:24] have to be committed to it. We have to
[1:20:25] want to, you know? But again, I think
[1:20:28] that we also should be conscious about
[1:20:30] that the shift from print to visual is
[1:20:32] and graphic is not actually a small
[1:20:34] shift in terms of how we are
[1:20:35] disconnected or connected to each other
[1:20:37] as people.
[1:20:38] What we actually have the capacity to do
[1:20:41] >> [clears throat]
[1:20:41] >> healthily.
[1:20:42] >> One thing I wasn't aware of until I
[1:20:44] started looking into your work was that
[1:20:47] in April 2024, UNICEF estimated that
[1:20:50] 100% of children in Gaza needed mental
[1:20:53] health and psychosocial support. 100%.
[1:20:56] And I think I've heard you say in an
[1:20:58] interview that that's the first time or
[1:21:00] one of the only times they've said 100%
[1:21:03] of children.
[1:21:04] >> thing to say. Yeah.
[1:21:05] >> Yeah. And I guess a lot of people feel
[1:21:08] that there's there's struggle and
[1:21:10] suffering going on in many countries
[1:21:13] around the world.
[1:21:14] >> Yeah.
[1:21:15] >> And they're like, "Well, how many things
[1:21:17] can we care about?"
[1:21:18] >> Oh.
[1:21:19] >> You know?
[1:21:20] Do you know what I mean? And I The
[1:21:22] reason I'm bringing these up is cuz it's
[1:21:23] not easy to bring these things up, but
[1:21:25] people will be thinking this.
[1:21:26] >> Oh, absolutely. There should be.
[1:21:28] >> better to have it out in the open so you
[1:21:30] can sort of at least give your
[1:21:31] perspective on this.
[1:21:33] >> Absolutely. And I, you know, I think the
[1:21:35] ask is not for us to care about or or
[1:21:39] put our energies into everyone and
[1:21:41] everything. We can't.
[1:21:42] >> Mhm.
[1:21:43] >> But I think what is asked of us is to
[1:21:44] put our energies and care
[1:21:47] where we can best serve.
[1:21:50] >> Yeah.
[1:21:50] >> Best make a difference.
[1:21:52] And to encourage others to do the same,
[1:21:54] whether it is for for this community or
[1:21:56] for another.
[1:21:57] >> Another, yeah.
[1:21:58] >> For me it's because I'm an Arabic
[1:21:59] speaker and
[1:22:00] um there are very few um Arabic speaking
[1:22:03] trauma psychologists and even fewer who
[1:22:05] are who are child specialized.
[1:22:07] >> 10 languages, don't you?
[1:22:08] >> Yes.
[1:22:09] >> Yeah.
[1:22:10] >> Um
[1:22:10] >> I can tell from you you're very modest,
[1:22:11] you're very understated what you do is
[1:22:14] really quite profound.
[1:22:15] >> Thank you.
[1:22:16] >> Um
[1:22:17] >> Yeah. And so but I also think that all
[1:22:20] of these like anyone, I really do
[1:22:23] believe that anyone can make a
[1:22:24] difference if they really put their mind
[1:22:25] to it. Um but it has to be a priority.
[1:22:29] But
[1:22:29] >> So so is the message from you
[1:22:32] if you're lucky enough to have privilege
[1:22:34] and have safety in your life
[1:22:37] make a difference in some way. Whether
[1:22:39] it's with the children in Gaza or it's
[1:22:42] at your you know
[1:22:44] the homeless shelter, right? Or
[1:22:47] like is that your message without being
[1:22:49] too sort of trite about this?
[1:22:50] >> Yes, no it really is because I think
[1:22:53] we're forgetting um
[1:22:56] I was talking to Linda Thai um
[1:22:59] who is one of my mentors in this space
[1:23:01] and we were talking about how we have
[1:23:03] come into an age where we have somehow
[1:23:05] found it acceptable to hurt each other
[1:23:07] in absolutely brutal ways.
[1:23:10] And um
[1:23:12] previously one of the humanitari- UN um
[1:23:15] humanitarian advisers who I worked with
[1:23:17] had said, you know, "Syria is where the
[1:23:19] world's conscious came to die." You
[1:23:21] know, conscience came to die because the
[1:23:23] things that happened during the Syria
[1:23:24] crisis were just red lines that one
[1:23:27] should never cross and we have seen so
[1:23:29] many more red lines crossed in Gaza for
[1:23:31] instance.
[1:23:32] But in the absence of of ability to to
[1:23:36] claw that back or at least from an
[1:23:38] individual level, what we can do on an
[1:23:40] individual level is then to resist that
[1:23:43] by showing kindness and healing and
[1:23:46] comfort and compassion and and and love
[1:23:48] really to those who need it. It sounds
[1:23:50] very trite, but it I think is actually
[1:23:52] the basis of how we can reverse any of
[1:23:54] this.
[1:23:57] >> You change the world by changing
[1:23:58] yourself, right?
[1:23:59] >> Yes.
[1:23:59] >> I really do believe that on such a deep
[1:24:01] level that we've all got a circle of
[1:24:03] influence and if you change yourself and
[1:24:05] the way you act and the things you give
[1:24:07] out to the world, you impact everyone
[1:24:09] you interact with. And then they start
[1:24:11] to impact the people they interact with
[1:24:13] and if enough people do that
[1:24:15] >> Mhm.
[1:24:15] >> some people will call me naive, but that
[1:24:18] is the view I hold.
[1:24:19] >> 100% and we're created like that, you
[1:24:21] know? We are, you know, mimetic theory,
[1:24:24] you know how you know, there's a saying
[1:24:26] that you are the average of the five
[1:24:28] people that you spend the most time with
[1:24:30] and when when I'm talking to parents,
[1:24:32] I'm like, be careful when one of those
[1:24:33] five people is actually not a person and
[1:24:35] is is, you know, a bot or is an online,
[1:24:37] [snorts] you know, really.
[1:24:39] Um, for ourselves as adults, but also
[1:24:41] obviously for children. Um, but mimetic
[1:24:43] theory is we are we are monkey see,
[1:24:46] monkey do. And so when we can model that
[1:24:48] for people, the people around us and and
[1:24:50] likewise, I know how I've I've I've
[1:24:53] absorbed that from others who I care
[1:24:55] about and look up to.
[1:24:56] >> Yeah.
[1:24:57] >> Um, that's the only way that we can not
[1:24:59] just sort of put our hands up and be
[1:25:01] like, well, it is what it is.
[1:25:03] Um,
[1:25:03] yeah, because then it'll be at our
[1:25:05] doorstep.
[1:25:08] >> This podcast has been going for almost 9
[1:25:12] years now.
[1:25:13] And it's something I feel an incredible
[1:25:16] privilege that I get to do and and have
[1:25:18] incredible conversations with incredible
[1:25:20] people.
[1:25:21] >> Aw.
[1:25:23] >> I've never
[1:25:24] had someone like you on the show before
[1:25:28] in terms of
[1:25:30] the kind of work you've done.
[1:25:31] >> Aw.
[1:25:33] >> And
[1:25:35] there will no doubt be
[1:25:40] some people
[1:25:42] thinking, saying, commenting,
[1:25:45] "Why you delving into a political area,
[1:25:48] Wong Duke? This is a health show.
[1:25:50] But my view and one of the reasons I
[1:25:52] invited you on is because I think your
[1:25:54] work needs to be heard by people.
[1:25:56] >> Thank you.
[1:25:57] >> Okay? Irrespective of the nationality of
[1:26:00] the children you are helping
[1:26:02] this is a humanitarian issue. This is an
[1:26:04] issue of
[1:26:08] our fellow humans and fellow humans of
[1:26:10] ours who are in a great deal of pain.
[1:26:13] >> Yes. As a humanity issue.
[1:26:16] >> It is.
[1:26:17] >> What we allow to happen to others is
[1:26:19] changing us.
[1:26:22] >> So if someone's saying
[1:26:26] Wong Duke, you shouldn't be having these
[1:26:27] conversations on your show. What do you
[1:26:29] say to them, Alexandra?
[1:26:31] >> I say we have to be braver.
[1:26:34] We have to be braver to have the
[1:26:36] difficult conversations about what we
[1:26:38] have allowed to happen to each other,
[1:26:41] which is utterly unacceptable.
[1:26:44] And that will if we're not careful
[1:26:50] really change us in very dark ways. It
[1:26:52] already is happening. And if we can't
[1:26:55] talk about it here, where you have an
[1:26:57] audience who cares about health
[1:27:00] if nothing else, the body keeps the
[1:27:02] score. All of us who know that this is
[1:27:04] happening, it is changing our bodies. It
[1:27:06] is changing our organs, whether or not
[1:27:08] we admit it.
[1:27:10] >> Yeah.
[1:27:11] Thank you.
[1:27:14] Alexandra, I'm truly in awe of what
[1:27:17] you've chosen to do with your life and
[1:27:18] what you've chosen to do with your
[1:27:19] career.
[1:27:20] >> Thank you.
[1:27:21] >> Setting up this organization Healing for
[1:27:23] Gaza a couple years ago, seeing how
[1:27:24] quickly it's growing and making an
[1:27:25] impact is very inspiring for me. I know
[1:27:29] and hope that people who want to help on
[1:27:32] the back of this conversation jump on to
[1:27:34] the website and is it Healing What What
[1:27:37] is the website?
[1:27:38] >> for Healing for Gaza specifically, but
[1:27:40] if um people want to learn about our
[1:27:42] wider work, including our research, it's
[1:27:44] earlylightfoundation.org.
[1:27:46] >> earlylightfoundation.org.
[1:27:47] Okay, we'll put links in the show notes.
[1:27:49] >> And they're both link to each other, so.
[1:27:51] >> And all that kind of stuff. Um, but to
[1:27:52] make sure we're
[1:27:55] finishing this conversation on an
[1:27:56] optimistic note, okay, which is I think
[1:27:59] something that we both would like to do.
[1:28:01] >> Absolutely.
[1:28:03] >> Given everything you've seen, everything
[1:28:05] you've witnessed, everything you've been
[1:28:06] through, everything you've
[1:28:09] seen others go through,
[1:28:14] what has all of it taught you
[1:28:17] about happiness and human flourishing?
[1:28:19] >> Aw.
[1:28:21] I think that the joy that is possible
[1:28:25] after so much destruction,
[1:28:28] to experience that or even just to
[1:28:30] witness it,
[1:28:34] is magical
[1:28:37] and is absolutely worth fighting for.
[1:28:40] Every piece of it.
[1:28:42] And I've seen it happen in so many
[1:28:44] children's lives, so I know that it is
[1:28:46] real.
[1:28:48] And I also know that it's possible
[1:28:51] for
[1:28:52] you know,
[1:28:54] with not not not doesn't take a dreadful
[1:28:57] amount of energy to make that possible.
[1:28:59] I want people to know to not be
[1:29:01] overwhelmed by the task that is ahead of
[1:29:03] us.
[1:29:04] I think that's what I want to say.
[1:29:06] Because
[1:29:09] people at the end of the day, if we can
[1:29:11] do it together,
[1:29:13] um, we're resource each other and be
[1:29:15] powerful for each other and um, be
[1:29:18] steadfast for each other and
[1:29:19] compassionate and and um, courageous,
[1:29:22] [clears throat]
[1:29:23] uh, we will surprise ourselves
[1:29:25] and surprise ourselves in really these
[1:29:27] incredibly beautiful ways.
[1:29:29] Um,
[1:29:31] I'll tell you two things.
[1:29:33] And one is that there beautiful there
[1:29:35] will be beautiful things that happen
[1:29:38] even without you expecting.
[1:29:39] So, on one of our
[1:29:41] one of our field missions, um,
[1:29:44] I don't know why, it was probably one of
[1:29:45] my hairbrained ideas, but that um, we
[1:29:48] had a morning shift and an afternoon
[1:29:49] shift in a space that was that we've
[1:29:51] we've chosen always very green and and
[1:29:53] beautiful spaces um because they're so
[1:29:55] rare for these children to be in but
[1:29:56] they want them to also feel closer to
[1:29:58] home. And we had a morning shift and an
[1:30:00] afternoon shift and we expected, you
[1:30:02] know, everyone just to be a little bit
[1:30:04] late and and so on with traffic and but
[1:30:06] what we had was that the the first group
[1:30:08] was a bit late but the second group was
[1:30:10] so excited to come that they came early.
[1:30:12] So there was an overlap of, you know,
[1:30:14] about 200 people in a space that really
[1:30:16] should only hold 100.
[1:30:19] And one of my And these were two groups
[1:30:21] of of of patients who were from
[1:30:23] different parts of of the
[1:30:25] [clears throat] city
[1:30:26] who would have otherwise not interacted
[1:30:27] cuz it would have been 6 hours apart
[1:30:29] from each other.
[1:30:30] And one of my patients came running up
[1:30:32] to me dragging another woman behind her
[1:30:34] and she was like,
[1:30:35] "This is my friend." She's like, "This
[1:30:37] is my best friend from uni. I thought
[1:30:39] I'd lost her.
[1:30:40] >> Wow.
[1:30:41] >> I thought she was gone.
[1:30:43] And and she said, "We we we were in
[1:30:46] school together." And it was the two of
[1:30:48] them, women in their early 40s with
[1:30:50] their teenage children. And they were
[1:30:52] sobbing and their kids were sobbing and
[1:30:55] and she was like, "It's all your fault.
[1:30:56] You're not on social media. I couldn't
[1:30:57] keep track, you know, after your whole
[1:30:59] family died. I thought you died, too.
[1:31:00] There was no one else I could talk to."
[1:31:02] And, you know, she was sort of like
[1:31:03] yelling at her friend, Dina. And um but
[1:31:05] then she you know, she just looked at me
[1:31:07] with with eye streams. She was like,
[1:31:08] "Look, you are bringing us back together
[1:31:11] again. She You are helping us rebuild
[1:31:12] just by giving us a space to be."
[1:31:15] >> Mhm.
[1:31:15] >> Beyond all the therapy, beyond any of
[1:31:17] it, just for them to be and find each
[1:31:19] other.
[1:31:20] Um and just that joy on their faces. I I
[1:31:25] I wish I had captured it cuz it was
[1:31:27] extraordinary. They were together again.
[1:31:30] You know.
[1:31:31] Um
[1:31:32] And then
[1:31:34] And then there was this one
[1:31:36] this is one elderly um um gentleman
[1:31:40] who's a medical doctor who was very very
[1:31:42] well known in Gaza and uh had done
[1:31:45] extraordinary work. And one of my
[1:31:47] proudest actually
[1:31:49] pieces of the work that we're doing is
[1:31:50] that we include all the men.
[1:31:52] It's not just the women and children.
[1:31:54] Very insistent about this and our men's
[1:31:56] groups
[1:31:58] started small but now the men not only
[1:32:00] come early. They always bring a friend
[1:32:03] and
[1:32:04] one of them
[1:32:06] >> [clears throat]
[1:32:07] >> the men who came for the first time was
[1:32:08] a little bit skeptical about it at first
[1:32:11] and he came but he wanted to check it
[1:32:12] out and you know, he had kids and
[1:32:15] he wanted to bring them along and then
[1:32:17] he spoke to our interpreter
[1:32:19] one of our extraordinary interpreters
[1:32:21] Salah who was facilitating the men's
[1:32:22] group he said wallah he was like I'm so
[1:32:24] surprised you know that there are people
[1:32:26] really you know trying to bring us back
[1:32:28] together like this and to offer an
[1:32:30] opportunity for us to talk about you
[1:32:32] know these difficult things and and to
[1:32:34] really you know heal from it and he says
[1:32:37] wallah you know I'm very impressed and
[1:32:40] and then he asked Salah he was like who
[1:32:42] started this and Salah you know points
[1:32:44] to me over there he said you know the
[1:32:45] woman wearing you know the white jacket
[1:32:46] he said who I can't see and Salah goes
[1:32:50] the Chinese woman
[1:32:51] and this [laughter]
[1:32:53] doctor goes
[1:32:54] even here the Chinese are dominating
[1:32:58] hilarious moment of you know he never
[1:33:00] met a Chinese person ever and and but
[1:33:02] the in the moment of connection of
[1:33:04] saying like even someone from the far
[1:33:05] ends of the planet would care
[1:33:07] and that meant you know and that meant
[1:33:09] something to him and we joke about on
[1:33:11] the team but I think that's really just
[1:33:12] what it is you know
[1:33:14] I refer to this quote by Daoud Hari
[1:33:20] called
[1:33:22] who who writes a memoir from Darfur
[1:33:25] which now feels so long time ago but
[1:33:26] it's still so relevant it's
[1:33:29] memoirs of a tribesman and he says
[1:33:33] how can you be safe if your people are
[1:33:35] not safe
[1:33:37] and he [clears throat] says
[1:33:39] but then who are your people
[1:33:41] perhaps everyone is your people
[1:33:45] >> What a peaceful place to finish this
[1:33:46] conversation.
[1:33:48] Alexandra
[1:33:50] you're an incredible human you're doing
[1:33:51] such phenomenal work with your team.
[1:33:53] >> Very kind thank you.
[1:33:55] >> Thank you so much for coming on the
[1:33:56] show.
[1:33:56] >> Thank you thank you Rangan.