Transcript
[0:01] If you make a mistake, if you slip or
[0:04] you fall at any point on the descent,
[0:06] you're going to the bottom. There's zero
[0:08] question of what's going to happen.
[0:10] >> Trailblazing mountain climber and skier
[0:12] Jim Morrison,
[0:13] >> one of the greatest ski mountaineers to
[0:15] ever live.
[0:16] >> The first person ever to ski down the
[0:19] north face of Everest.
[0:22] >> Most people's relationship with Mount
[0:24] Everest are people ascending from the
[0:27] south side. The north side is an
[0:29] entirely different situation. Not only
[0:31] were you one of the few people to make
[0:33] it to the summit from the north side,
[0:35] but you're the first person to then ski
[0:38] down from the summit. You have a unique
[0:41] relationship with all of this. And
[0:43] you've suffered unimaginable
[0:46] loss in your life. In 2011, my wife and
[0:51] children, all of them [music] were
[0:52] killed. Something happened in the sky
[0:54] and the plane fell out of the sky and in
[0:58] an instant my entire world just
[1:00] evaporated. I did have a desire to fall
[1:03] in love again and when I met Hillary we
[1:07] fell deeply in love.
[1:09] >> The whole idea was that you and Hillary
[1:11] were going to do this on Everest
[1:13] together. Hillary started skiing shortly
[1:16] after me and started a small avalanche
[1:19] and was swept off her feet and swept out
[1:22] of sight from where I was. And I've
[1:24] replayed that scene in my head thousands
[1:28] of times. I do think there's value in
[1:31] understanding that you can continue
[1:33] after the [music] worst happens.
[1:39] The north face ascent of Mount Everest.
[1:43] Most people's relationship with Mount
[1:45] Everest, what they see on television or
[1:49] movies or on social media are people
[1:52] ascending from the south side, the south
[1:54] pole, right? Uh that's where you see
[1:57] this long line of people, this queue of
[1:59] people going up. The north side is an
[2:02] entirely different situation. And that's
[2:05] what we're here to talk about among
[2:07] other things today. Because essentially
[2:09] almost exactly a year ago, you
[2:12] accomplished this impossible first where
[2:15] not only were you one of the few people
[2:18] to make it to the summit from the north
[2:20] side, from the China side, but you're
[2:22] the first person to then ski down from
[2:26] the summit. And this is a situation
[2:29] uh that is difficult to get your head
[2:32] around. And I remember when it was
[2:34] happening and reading about it and you
[2:36] know kind of seeing photographs and
[2:38] stuff like that and thinking that I
[2:39] understood what you had done and then I
[2:42] watched Everest the other side the
[2:44] documentary that were on you know were
[2:46] on the precipice of it being widely
[2:48] released and realized like I didn't I I
[2:51] didn't understand this at all. I had the
[2:52] same experience with Alex cuz I had hon
[2:56] after he had free soloed LCAP but before
[2:58] the movie came out and I hadn't that you
[3:00] know I hadn't seen the movie and he's
[3:02] explaining it to me. I was like, "Yeah,
[3:03] I got it. I got it." And then I saw the
[3:05] movie and I was like, "I don't know
[3:06] anything." You know, [clears throat] and
[3:07] this is a very similar experience. I
[3:09] mean, it's just absolutely mind-boggling
[3:11] and astonishing.
[3:13] >> Well, thank you. It was uh it was truly
[3:16] a a magnificent effort by a whole lot of
[3:19] people to to get there and to pull this
[3:22] off and something we worked at for the
[3:25] better part of a lifetime. And
[3:27] [clears throat]
[3:28] it feels pretty great to sit here today
[3:29] and and have those memories with me and
[3:32] have the success of of pulling it off
[3:34] and bringing everybody back safely.
[3:37] I don't know who said it, but there was
[3:39] some painter, some artist who was once
[3:42] asked like, "How long did it take you to
[3:44] paint that painting?" And the response
[3:46] was, "My entire life." And I think it's
[3:49] this holds true for you as well. like
[3:51] this this is the result of a lifetime
[3:54] relationship
[3:55] with the outdoors and with the
[3:57] mountains. Technically, it was about a
[3:59] six-year like formal quest to achieve
[4:02] this goal, but it's the summation of a
[4:06] lifetime of experiences in the outdoors.
[4:10] Yeah. I came home and I showed some of
[4:14] the footage to a really small close
[4:16] group of friends uh at a birthday party
[4:19] a couple nights after I got back and my
[4:21] friend Jeremy Jones called me the next
[4:23] morning and he said it dawned on me this
[4:26] morning while I was thinking about what
[4:27] I saw. I think he had a similar reaction
[4:29] to you like he didn't quite understand
[4:30] it till he visualized it on film
[4:34] and he said I think this took you 50
[4:36] years to to put this together. I don't
[4:38] think you could have been ready to do
[4:40] this any sooner in life. And
[4:43] >> that really stuck with me and I think is
[4:45] is true. I I I was ready mentally in
[4:48] some ways. I was ready physically in
[4:50] some ways. But there's so much
[4:51] experience you get of putting these
[4:54] expeditions together, building teams,
[4:56] going into the mountains, studying wind
[4:58] and weather and avalanche and all the
[5:01] hazards and
[5:04] being able to have the the experience to
[5:07] aggregate everything into a successful
[5:09] ascent and descent
[5:11] is pretty is pretty cool to take 50
[5:13] years to put that together.
[5:15] >> The team aspect of it
[5:18] can't be underestimated. I mean, there
[5:20] were a lot of people uh, you know, in in
[5:24] support of this achievement. In the
[5:27] movie, you see like these tents and
[5:29] they're set up like military operations
[5:32] with maps and all kinds of people behind
[5:35] the scenes. You have the film crew of
[5:36] course, but you also have, you know,
[5:38] just so much logistical support like all
[5:40] this attention to the weather and the
[5:42] patterns and, you know, people going up
[5:45] to set up camps in advance and, you
[5:48] know, the execution of this is one of
[5:50] the most complicated things that you can
[5:52] imagine. And I think that that is in
[5:55] contrast with people's idea who of
[5:58] Everest where like oh you sign up and
[6:00] you go on these expeditions you're some
[6:02] you know private equity guy and you pay
[6:04] a bunch of money and it's kind of all
[6:05] sorted for you. Um this is a very
[6:08] different thing like when you see the
[6:10] north face and how dramatic it is it's
[6:13] very different from our association with
[6:15] Everest. So what is it about the north
[6:17] face? You mentioned all these cool and
[6:20] like what is a cool like for the average
[6:22] person who just has a very casual
[6:24] relationship with the world's tallest
[6:26] mountain. What is it that you want to
[6:28] say about attempting to summit from the
[6:31] other side?
[6:34] >> Well, the North Face is just it's an
[6:36] entirely different version of the
[6:38] mountain. It's it's the shadowed side.
[6:40] It's the steep precipice. It starts at
[6:44] 20,000 ft at the bottom of the face at
[6:47] the Bergrren and it goes straight to
[6:48] 29,000 ft. Uh it's ultra direct from the
[6:52] bottom to the top. You're not cruising
[6:54] around and going up the ridge and the
[6:56] longest sort of easiest way to the top.
[7:00] You're going the most direct route on
[7:03] the on the mountain. And
[7:05] there's something really special and
[7:08] really aesthetically pleasing and really
[7:10] desirous to to climb that route. And for
[7:13] me to ski it and yeah to put that team
[7:16] together to to do it took a lot of hard
[7:20] work and I owe a tremendous debt of
[7:23] gratitude to every single person
[7:25] involved and we built that team over
[7:27] many many years and and really we failed
[7:30] twice trying this and we really found
[7:32] success by building the dream team that
[7:36] I was sort of given the the opportunity
[7:40] and the demand of okay this hasn't
[7:42] worked in the past. What do we need to
[7:44] do different? And I said, we need to
[7:45] build the team, the dream team. We need
[7:48] to do it like this. And that's what's
[7:50] going to make the difference. And
[7:51] ultimately,
[7:53] it was clear as day. It was the ultimate
[7:55] team that put it all together and kind
[7:58] of put the yellow jersey on me at the
[8:00] beginning of the race and carried me
[8:02] through a lot of the the difficulties.
[8:05] And then I was able to kind of stand up
[8:07] out of the saddle and race to the finish
[8:09] and ski back down. to put it mildly. Uh
[8:14] the grades are insane. Like I think
[8:18] Jimmy at some point in the movie says
[8:20] we're we're talking about like 51% grade
[8:22] or something like that. Like the
[8:24] steepness with which you're ascending,
[8:26] especially from
[8:28] where's the third camp like at 23,000 ft
[8:31] from like 23 to 29. I mean it it is a
[8:35] sort of El Capitan kind of ascent.
[8:39] Yeah, it's very it's very steep and in
[8:42] reality it's like 45 degrees.
[8:45] >> Uh and it's steeper in in places,
[8:48] but what's unique about it is it's just
[8:51] so unrelenting and it's, you know, the
[8:53] the face is a couple of miles wide and
[8:56] it's almost a couple of miles tall. So,
[8:59] you're just in a a more vast, broader,
[9:03] bigger, longer landscape than anywhere
[9:06] else I've ever been. And
[9:10] if you make a mistake, if you slip or
[9:12] you fall at any point on the descent,
[9:15] you're going to the bottom. There's zero
[9:17] question of what's going to happen.
[9:18] You're there's nowhere to self-arrest,
[9:21] nowhere to get lucky and stop. You're
[9:24] you're going to the very bottom of the
[9:25] mountain.
[9:26] >> Yeah. It's called, you call it a no fall
[9:28] zone.
[9:29] >> Yeah.
[9:29] >> No fall zone. A euphemism for one
[9:33] misstep and you're dead.
[9:34] >> Yeah. And that's that's something we've
[9:36] we've termed over many, you know, many
[9:39] different things. You traverse across
[9:41] above a big cliff or you hike across
[9:43] above a big cliff. You can't fall there.
[9:44] You could you could fall to your death.
[9:46] >> So, we call it a no fall zone. And often
[9:48] that's there are a couple no fall zones
[9:51] on a on a climb or a ski or an adventure
[9:55] out in life, but this is a broader
[9:58] version of the whole thing's a no-fall
[10:00] zone.
[10:02] For somebody to do what you do and have
[10:04] been doing for a long time, you have to
[10:06] have a different relationship with risk,
[10:09] death, and loss. But even amongst the
[10:13] climber, the climbing community, you
[10:16] have a unique relationship with all of
[10:18] this. And this is the real story. Like
[10:20] the the feat is the opportunity to talk
[10:24] about like your journey through life to
[10:28] get to this place and to make this
[10:30] decision to make this ascent because
[10:33] you've suffered unimaginable
[10:36] loss in your life. I wouldn't wish it
[10:38] upon anyone what you've endured. It's
[10:40] been, you know, this unbelievable
[10:43] journey to places most people won't go.
[10:46] So
[10:48] that's really what I want to talk about
[10:49] with you today. I want to understand
[10:52] that experience of of loss that
[10:55] basically uh you know upended your life
[10:59] back in 2011. So maybe start there and
[11:03] share that story.
[11:07] Uh well, in 2011, my wife and children
[11:12] were down here in Los Angeles visiting
[11:15] some friends. And my wife was flying
[11:18] from Long Beach to Henderson, Nevada to
[11:21] spend some time with a friend of hers
[11:23] whose husband was going undergoing some
[11:25] cancer treatment and just to support
[11:27] her. And in the course of that flight
[11:30] from Long Beach to Henderson, Nevada,
[11:32] there was she was flying a small
[11:34] airplane, a Cessna 210,
[11:37] and
[11:39] something happened in the sky, some
[11:41] tremendous catastrophic air mass, and
[11:45] the plane fell out of the sky, and all
[11:47] of them were killed.
[11:50] And I
[11:53] I was skiing in Palisades Tahoe and I
[11:57] hit a piece of ice and hurt my ankle
[12:00] and I kind of limped down to the car and
[12:03] I called Katie looking for her support
[12:06] and her guidance and
[12:09] she didn't answer the phone and I
[12:11] started driving and I called her again
[12:13] and I called her again and and then I
[12:16] finally looked up her flight track And
[12:20] the flight track had just kind of gone
[12:22] off the the radar, so to speak. And I
[12:26] eventually, just before I got to my
[12:28] house, I called the FAA, which is sort
[12:31] of akin to calling the police on your
[12:33] wife, uh, saying, "She must have done
[12:36] something wrong. She's not where she's
[12:38] supposed to be. I need your help."
[12:40] And I got a call from a friend shortly
[12:43] thereafter who was in the air traffic
[12:47] control world for part of his life and
[12:48] had friends there and had reached out to
[12:50] people. And
[12:52] he called me and he just said, "They're
[12:55] Jimmy." And I answered the phone. He
[12:57] said, "They're gone." And
[13:00] I was,
[13:02] you know, I said to him, "What do you
[13:04] mean?" I I didn't understand what what
[13:07] that meant or had never been able to
[13:10] visualize that. And in an instant, my
[13:13] entire world just evaporated. Everything
[13:16] that I had worked for, everything that I
[13:18] cared about
[13:21] was literally just gone in an instant.
[13:23] And I
[13:25] was completely broken by it and didn't
[13:28] know what to do and didn't started
[13:30] simply just trying to understand am I
[13:32] going to evaporate? Is this all like am
[13:34] I going to just fall to dust on the
[13:36] floor here?
[13:38] And I took a breath and I took more
[13:41] breaths and eventually I drank water and
[13:44] you know kind of like you're on an
[13:46] endurance run going the longest distance
[13:50] you've ever been at your worst spot. You
[13:53] just start trying to focus on how what
[13:56] do I need to do to keep keep existing?
[13:59] And
[14:01] I went through a really long traumatic
[14:04] period of time where I was crushed and
[14:07] day by day I
[14:09] put one foot in front of another and um
[14:14] I had a profound moment. They highlight
[14:17] this in the film where I was on the
[14:19] laundry room floor one day and I looked
[14:22] out the window and I saw these beautiful
[14:25] pine needles on a tree and I was
[14:27] screaming. I was in like a blood
[14:29] curdling, just broken state.
[14:32] And I looked at those pine needles with
[14:35] this beautiful blue sky behind them. And
[14:37] I just visualized that moment for a
[14:39] second. And
[14:43] I appreciated that beauty in nature. And
[14:46] I used that to sort of help me get back
[14:49] on my feet and stand up and take a
[14:52] [clears throat] step forward. And
[14:53] eventually I walked up my driveway and I
[14:55] walked into the street and I gave myself
[14:59] tremendous accolades for just stepping
[15:02] over that crack in the asphalt.
[15:06] >> And then I've just been carrying that
[15:08] >> one step further
[15:09] >> forward one step further at a time.
[15:14] >> How old were your kids when this
[15:17] happened?
[15:17] >> My kids were five and six. Hannah, my
[15:20] daughter, was five years old and Wyatt,
[15:22] my son, was six years old. Uh, I was
[15:25] skiing with them a couple days
[15:27] beforehand.
[15:29] My son, at 6 years old, ski through the
[15:32] fingers at
[15:34] squ at Palisades Tahoe, which uh is this
[15:38] proverbial like really hardcore ski run
[15:42] underneath KT22. when, you know, we were
[15:45] just getting to that age where I was
[15:47] doing things with my kids that that I
[15:50] love to do. And we, you know, I had
[15:53] called my wife the night before
[15:56] and we talked and I I was pinching
[15:58] myself and I had told her about this
[16:00] deal that I just landed with our
[16:02] business and I felt like we had the
[16:05] world by a string and we were going to
[16:07] live this really fruitful life and our
[16:09] kids were growing up to be magical
[16:12] little people and
[16:14] and then it all came crashing down.
[16:22] You mentioned the pine needles uh as
[16:25] this
[16:27] sort of catalyst into
[16:32] some form of
[16:34] self-care action
[16:37] which is a symbol for nature at large,
[16:40] right? Like this relationship with
[16:42] nature that you have as a as as a
[16:44] healing modality. Um, it's one thing to
[16:49] look at the pine needles and divine some
[16:52] degree of inspiration to get up off the
[16:55] couch and go outside. It's another thing
[16:57] altogether to have this relationship
[17:00] with the world's largest peaks.
[17:04] But essentially, it's the natural world
[17:07] that animates you. And
[17:11] I want to understand
[17:13] the profoundity of that relationship
[17:15] because I think this is at the crux of
[17:18] the conversation around the movie. Like
[17:20] what is it about these ascents and these
[17:24] mountains that move you to take these
[17:28] risks and put yourself in a in positions
[17:31] where life and death are, you know,
[17:33] that's a that's a very real gamble. Like
[17:36] what are you getting out of it? Hillary
[17:38] speaks to it directly in the movie, but
[17:41] what is your relationship with that?
[17:45] >> I mean, I think at the at its essence,
[17:47] the true core of what I'm what I
[17:50] experienced and what I'm chasing is is
[17:53] presence and is being focused on now and
[17:56] what's happening right in front of us.
[17:59] And what I began to learn through this
[18:02] grief journey was that the past was the
[18:05] past and there was nothing I could do
[18:07] about it. It was it was over. And no
[18:10] matter how much I lied on that laundry
[18:11] room floor and screamed and cried, it
[18:14] wouldn't bring them back. And yet I had
[18:18] this incredibly beautiful moment right
[18:20] in front of me that I was just ignoring.
[18:22] And I was choosing to stay stuck in that
[18:27] awful, devastating place. And I had to
[18:31] force and choose to take a step forward
[18:35] and go into that nature. And for me,
[18:39] the communing with nature, the the
[18:42] stepping outside, the going for a walk
[18:44] in the forest or climbing up a mountain
[18:46] days or weeks or months later
[18:50] just became the greatest source of of
[18:52] healing and forward and eventually that
[18:56] led to bigger and bigger endeavors and
[19:00] bigger challenges. And like many of us,
[19:03] we we put a big target of a a big race
[19:06] or a big mountain or a big endeavor on
[19:09] the board and then training for it
[19:11] becomes the journey and all the work
[19:13] that goes into it helps us stay focused
[19:16] on what we think is important in the
[19:18] world. And for me, that time outside
[19:22] walking uphill with friends and with
[19:24] Mother Earth, it brings me closer to my
[19:28] kids and lets me think about and have
[19:31] times to to connect with
[19:34] my wife and Hillary and lots of other
[19:37] people I've lost in the mountains and
[19:40] just has has given me that opportunity.
[19:44] And and I think I've used the term it's
[19:47] a forced presence. You know, I I spent a
[19:50] lot of time reading and learning from
[19:53] Echartol.
[19:55] And my guess is his take on on what I'm
[19:59] doing in the mountains would be like,
[20:00] okay, you could just be present without
[20:02] going to the mountains. That's that's
[20:04] someone who's not as good at
[20:06] [clears throat]
[20:06] >> the sort of spiritual practice. They're
[20:08] having to do it.
[20:10] >> They're using something to force them to
[20:12] be present. But for those of us that
[20:14] aren't as
[20:16] good at the spiritual practice that that
[20:19] I think he's done such a good job of
[20:21] helping people see and and realize and
[20:23] learn about.
[20:25] Going for a walk or climbing a mountain
[20:28] can be a a really or going for a run can
[20:31] can be really helpful. And for me it's
[20:35] just kept me alive, kept me going, given
[20:38] me the opportunity to do my best work.
[20:42] The enlightened view is that everything
[20:45] is available in the present moment and
[20:48] your facility to understand that is is
[20:52] uh is a function of just how present you
[20:56] are in the moment like which is all
[20:59] there is actually. You know there's this
[21:02] story about the past and things that
[21:04] have happened and what it means and
[21:06] there's the time that we spend thinking
[21:08] about the future ruminating. Um, but
[21:11] essentially the only thing that is real
[21:12] is like right here and right now. And
[21:15] when we're right here and right now,
[21:18] everything's fine.
[21:20] But we are wired to not be present in
[21:24] the moment. And we seek out these
[21:26] experiences to connect with the
[21:30] ineffable or something that is divine
[21:32] that can provide us with a wisdom around
[21:35] like what does life mean and what does
[21:38] it mean to live a meaningful life and
[21:40] and you know what is my purpose and
[21:44] Hillary in the movie when asked this
[21:47] question basically says when I'm on
[21:51] these mountains and I'm on this summit
[21:53] of these big peaks
[21:55] You're in this liinal space between the
[21:58] material world and the spiritual world.
[22:01] And that allows her, it's almost as if
[22:04] there's this thin layer between like God
[22:07] and man. And in that space, there's a
[22:11] sense of connection that is just not
[22:15] available in everyday life.
[22:19] Yeah. And Hillary Hillary referred to
[22:21] that as as the netherworld. and she
[22:23] asked me before I went to Everest in
[22:26] 2018, I was going to climb Everest on on
[22:30] the north side of the mountain via the
[22:32] standard route up to North Side. And
[22:35] she said, "What do you think about when
[22:37] you're up there and when you're close to
[22:38] the netherworld?"
[22:40] And we had a whole conversation about
[22:42] it. And I went on this trip and I was up
[22:45] high at like 28 28 and a half thousand
[22:49] feet climbing ahead of my team by
[22:51] myself.
[22:53] and you truly feel like you can reach
[22:56] through to the other side. It's just
[22:58] almost this invincible line all of a
[23:02] sudden that you feel like if you just
[23:04] were to walk over there, you'd fall to
[23:06] your death or if you were to sit down
[23:08] and get exhausted, you might perish. And
[23:11] you're existing at the sort of edge of
[23:13] of what's possible.
[23:16] And I had this
[23:19] incredible spiritual moment with my
[23:22] children where for like 30 minutes they
[23:26] were with me. I felt their presence that
[23:28] I had been searching for and dreaming
[23:31] about and looking for and praying for
[23:34] for many many years. hopeful that they
[23:38] would come out of the forest on the
[23:40] other side of the river when I was in
[23:41] some really remote place. Or when I was
[23:44] looking out at the ocean at sunset, I
[23:46] would see them on the other side of the
[23:48] waves. I would get some sign that they
[23:50] were okay, that they were that still
[23:53] existed in our spiritual world.
[23:57] And for 30 minutes that they were with
[23:59] me, they were laughing, they were
[24:01] encouraging me. And I felt them so
[24:04] strongly like I never imagined. And
[24:10] it was it was an incredible
[24:12] >> situation. And I I connected with
[24:15] Hillary about it afterwards. And you
[24:17] know, I think she's talking about
[24:20] something that just has always been for
[24:23] her this desire to get back to that that
[24:28] edge of of and I I think you can do that
[24:30] in all sorts of aspects of your life.
[24:32] And it's really just surrendering to
[24:35] some of what we spend all our time of
[24:39] like I got to get there. I got to do
[24:41] what's next. I got to go. I'm in the
[24:42] line at the grocery store and I've got
[24:44] to hurry up and get through the through
[24:46] this and get home and get the to-do list
[24:49] done. But if you just stop and slow down
[24:51] and focus on being present, you might
[24:55] notice something spectacular. And you
[24:57] might For me, I I had moments where I
[25:00] was in the grocery store and I looked at
[25:04] a child in someone's arms and I started
[25:07] flirting with a 12-month-old child and
[25:11] got them to smile and just found a
[25:15] tremendous amount of joy out of that
[25:18] moment. It it mixed with this like awful
[25:21] reality that I'd lost my children. And
[25:25] it was those moments that started to
[25:27] help me realize like I don't have to
[25:29] suppress the memories of them every day.
[25:31] I don't have to push them away. I can
[25:34] live in those moments and celebrate who
[25:36] they are every day. And doing that in a
[25:39] remote place in the Himalayas at extreme
[25:42] altitude in many ways is easier because
[25:44] you strip away everything else and you
[25:46] get to focus on just what's right in
[25:49] front of you and maybe it helps you
[25:52] connect with being present.
[25:55] >> Well, also realizing you can have a
[25:57] analogous experience in the grocery
[25:59] store flirting with an infant.
[26:03] >> You absolutely can. And [laughter] uh
[26:07] I've been trying, you know, for in so
[26:09] many acts of my life since 2011 to
[26:13] connect with those moments and to do the
[26:16] do little things in my day-to-day
[26:18] existence that make my life better and
[26:21] and make other people's lives better.
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[27:50] I used to think adventure meant
[27:52] something specific, a summit somewhere
[27:55] far from home, but these days it's just
[27:57] as likely to be taken the long way home
[28:00] because the light's good. Driving a
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[28:05] adventure in the first [music] place.
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[28:11] definition. It's whatever you call
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[28:46] [music]
[28:51] The Hillary that we're talking about is
[28:53] the late Hillary Nelson. Um,
[28:59] your life partner, uh, who I had the
[29:02] good fortune of knowing just in the
[29:04] tiniest bit. I had her on the the show
[29:06] many, you know, many several years ago.
[29:09] Um,
[29:11] when did she enter your life? How many
[29:13] years after
[29:15] the tragic airplane accident?
[29:18] >> The accident was in 2011 and I met
[29:20] Hillary in 2015 on an expedition to
[29:25] climb and ski Macau, the world's fifth
[29:28] highest peak. I think I met her in the
[29:30] Catmandeue airport on the way to this
[29:33] expedition and uh
[29:36] we became fast friends climbing the
[29:38] mountain and
[29:42] she got me to open up and talk about
[29:44] things that I hadn't spoken to other
[29:46] people about and just spending time
[29:49] talking about my wife and my kids and
[29:52] life and what I'd been through in those
[29:54] four years just really kind of propelled
[29:57] me a step further and she shared some
[30:00] own some of her life stories and
[30:03] tragedies that have happened in her life
[30:05] that we kind of commencerated about. And
[30:08] and then we just started looking at
[30:12] the mountain and the conditions and
[30:15] snow and ski lines in a very similar
[30:18] light and realized we we shared a lot of
[30:21] similar passions. And
[30:24] after that trip, we many months later
[30:26] started dating and
[30:29] uh started going on adventures together
[30:32] and we just kind of went on a tear and
[30:36] found a ton of success. Did did some
[30:38] incredible things in the mountains and
[30:41] shared a lot of joy in the mountains and
[30:44] a lot of
[30:46] >> yeah amazing moments. Prior to meeting
[30:49] her, did you have a sense that you would
[30:53] be capable of allowing yourself to fall
[30:57] in love again?
[31:00] >> Yeah. I think
[31:03] in the months and years after losing my
[31:07] family, I I I really wanted to recreate
[31:11] what I had. I I wanted the future and I
[31:14] was always yearning for the future. How
[31:17] am I going to get that back? How am I
[31:19] going to find someone and meet someone
[31:21] and have a family and and recreate this
[31:24] this thing? And I and I did a lot of
[31:26] work to realize that
[31:29] nothing ever happened in the future.
[31:33] That's to quote Ehart like he he told me
[31:35] that face to face. Nothing in his sort
[31:38] of Yoda voice. Nothing has ever happened
[31:40] in the future ever.
[31:42] >> And you met him. You had FaceTime with
[31:44] him.
[31:45] >> I did. I I really enjoyed uh his book,
[31:48] The Power of Now. And I I read it and
[31:50] listened to it and then I went to
[31:52] Vancouver and
[31:53] >> met him and sat down with him and spent
[31:55] some time with him and
[31:57] >> and the way he said that to me like and
[31:59] it was just so clear and simple and
[32:03] factual to him really made an impact in
[32:05] that it's just never happened. gym. This
[32:08] was the the vibe he was giving me like
[32:10] stop trying to manifest the future
[32:13] because you really just have what you
[32:15] can do now. And
[32:18] it just made a really big impact on on
[32:21] how I started moving forward. And
[32:24] I did have a desire to fall in love
[32:26] again. And when I met Hillary, we fell
[32:30] deeply in love. And I built an
[32:33] incredible life with her. And
[32:36] I feel really fortunate for not just
[32:39] doing that once, but but doing it twice.
[32:41] And
[32:43] I'm sort of entering that third chapter
[32:46] of my life now where I have every
[32:48] intention of going back out in the world
[32:50] and
[32:51] sharing what I have with someone and
[32:53] building a life with someone and,
[32:56] you know, hopefully living happily ever
[32:58] after and sailing off into the sunset.
[33:01] The predominant theme in the movie and
[33:04] you articulate it at the end
[33:08] uh is that what you have learned from
[33:12] navigating such tremendous grief and
[33:15] loss is not that you have to learn how
[33:18] to live without them. It's about
[33:21] bringing them with you.
[33:23] And I mean that's a profound insight and
[33:26] I'm sure you had to climb a lot of
[33:29] emotional mountains to arrive at that as
[33:31] your as your kind of life philosophy.
[33:35] But I think it's powerful and I I think
[33:38] that the achievement of, you know,
[33:42] summiting the North Face and skiing down
[33:45] is essentially just a platform for you
[33:48] to be able to share what you've learned
[33:52] from these extreme experiences, not just
[33:54] physically, but emotionally. Like,
[33:57] because if you look at life as a
[33:59] waveform, like you're just I mean, you
[34:01] have these insane peaks and valleys.
[34:04] like it's just like it's going like
[34:05] this. Like the thing is just jagged as
[34:09] I'll get out.
[34:12] A normal person has, you know, gradual
[34:14] kind of dips and es and flows or
[34:16] whatever. It's like you're just
[34:18] compressing the waveform, but nobody
[34:20] gets out of life alive. And everybody at
[34:23] some point is faced with grief and loss.
[34:26] We all have these experiences. I know
[34:29] Oprah kind of contextualized this to you
[34:32] as you know we all have our own Everest,
[34:34] right? And so the wisdom that you've
[34:37] gleaned from your life and from these
[34:39] adventures, you now have this
[34:43] opportunity to like share that in
[34:45] service to other people who are
[34:47] navigating their version of what you
[34:50] have endured.
[34:52] Yeah. And I really relish that
[34:55] opportunity. I think it's my my purpose
[34:58] here at this point. I
[35:01] I sat down a few days after my wife and
[35:04] kids passed away and I
[35:07] had a memorial service and I decided I
[35:09] wanted to get up in front of everyone
[35:10] and say something. And I sat down to
[35:15] put words to paper and
[35:18] at that moment all I wanted to do was
[35:20] end my own life. And
[35:24] I had this
[35:27] profound moment where I just decided
[35:30] either I'm going to end my own life, I
[35:32] might as well just do it right now or
[35:34] I'm not and I'm going to try to do my
[35:36] best and I'm going to try to live my
[35:37] life in their honor. And I think that
[35:40] helped me get through that moment and
[35:43] that through that day and
[35:46] I've taken that forward and
[35:49] I've been through so much loss and so
[35:52] much grief but in sharing that story
[35:54] with others sometimes I meet someone who
[35:58] I've had an impact on and it and it does
[36:01] feel valuable and positive and so I hope
[36:06] this film and eventually a a book that I
[36:08] write will help people figure out that
[36:10] there is a way through their their own
[36:13] Everest story, whether it's a tremendous
[36:17] loss or
[36:19] a bout with depression or a bout with
[36:21] sickness in their themselves or their
[36:24] family.
[36:25] And we all are going to go through these
[36:28] highs and lows. And I I think you can
[36:31] say that mine are more dramatic than
[36:33] others, but when you're in the when
[36:36] you're in the gutter and you're in the
[36:37] bad place, for whatever reason it is,
[36:40] it's it feels pretty awful. I think
[36:42] >> your pain is your pain.
[36:44] >> Yeah. And it's often just such a small
[36:48] turn of the dial to take you from I'm
[36:51] mad and I'm upset and I'm depressed and
[36:53] I feel terrible to
[36:56] I'm great and everything's wonderful and
[36:58] I'm having a great time. It's like
[37:00] somebody can make the right joke and
[37:02] create the right vibe and all of a
[37:04] sudden you're having a great time at the
[37:05] party
[37:07] >> versus I don't like it here and I want
[37:08] to go home. And
[37:11] I think if we can figure out how to
[37:15] infuse ourselves with more of what
[37:17] brings us happiness and joy and gets us
[37:20] gets that volume turned up a little bit,
[37:22] then
[37:24] we're all going to live a better life.
[37:26] And for me, a lot of that is just
[37:30] stepping out of of my normaly and going
[37:33] outside and taking a walk with nature
[37:36] and meeting new people and doing new
[37:38] things. And [clears throat]
[37:40] I think there's, you know, so much of us
[37:42] feel like
[37:44] we have to do something dramatic to to
[37:47] get us out of our life situation. But it
[37:50] doesn't start with the hardest part of
[37:52] the climb at the top of the mountain
[37:54] where the crux is. It starts with just
[37:57] deciding you're going to go on that
[37:58] journey and starting to pack your bags
[38:01] and starting to plan for the expedition
[38:04] and eventually you step over the the
[38:06] crack at the bottom of the face and
[38:08] eventually you make your first step up
[38:09] the mountain. But you don't climb
[38:11] through the crux until you get there. So
[38:13] you don't have to focus entirely on
[38:15] that. You have to plan for it. But
[38:18] >> you don't have to do the hardest part of
[38:20] the journey all at once. You just have
[38:22] to get started.
[38:24] There's a sort of moment of levity in
[38:27] the movie when you and Jimmy are in a
[38:29] tent and you're like and I I think I
[38:31] don't know if it was you or Jimmy like
[38:32] you're like I thought this was supposed
[38:34] to be fun. Isn't this supposed to be
[38:35] fun? You're like no the fun part is
[38:38] afterwards when you tell this story but
[38:40] you know it illustrates this point of
[38:42] this being this huge journey. And if
[38:45] nothing else, like the movie affirms
[38:47] this theory that I have that like 90% of
[38:50] climbing is like people packing their
[38:53] gear. Like the amount of gear is insane.
[38:55] I think I made this joke when I had
[38:56] Emily Harrington on. All you guys do is
[38:59] like spread all your out all over
[39:01] the floor and you just spend hours and
[39:03] hours like with these ropes and the
[39:05] carabiners and like packing all this
[39:07] stuff and you know that's there's a
[39:09] there's a like there's something
[39:11] ritualistic about that.
[39:13] Yeah, absolutely. We obsess over making
[39:16] sure we have just the right amount of
[39:17] stuff, maybe a little bit extra, but
[39:19] concerned about how much weight it is,
[39:21] and should I take this or should I do
[39:22] that? And some part of that is just
[39:25] putting yourself in the mindset of of
[39:27] getting prepared to go into this this
[39:30] battle you're going to have with the
[39:31] mountain. And uh
[39:35] putting on your own armor to to prepare
[39:37] yourself for the you know, when we get
[39:39] like six feet off the ground, everything
[39:41] changes. you you get more than 12 feet
[39:45] off the ground, all of a sudden you feel
[39:46] like you're going to get really hurt or
[39:48] really
[39:50] worse if if you are to fall. And and we
[39:52] have to put ourselves in a mindset of
[39:54] how to prepare for that that fear that's
[39:57] going to come into us and and how we're
[39:59] going to
[40:00] >> move through it. And for Emily, that's
[40:01] having just the right tools to stick in
[40:04] the crack and the right rope and the
[40:07] right outfit and the right earrings and
[40:10] all the right things. What is your
[40:12] relationship with fear when people ask
[40:14] you like how do you manage your fear?
[40:16] How do you channel it? Uh how does it
[40:18] show up?
[40:20] >> Uh I I mean I think my relationship with
[40:23] fear is
[40:26] I've learned to use the fear that comes
[40:29] in my it's something that's going to
[40:31] happen. When I'm when I was at the top
[40:32] of Everest and I was looking at what was
[40:34] in front of me, I was very afraid of of
[40:37] the consequences and of making a mistake
[40:39] or having something not go the way I had
[40:43] planned it to go. But I used that fear
[40:47] to say, "Wow, this looks really icy and
[40:50] this next turn looks really dangerous
[40:52] for this reason. The snow is not smooth
[40:54] and there's a rock right there and you
[40:56] better be perfect with that." I use that
[40:58] fear to help me understand you have to
[41:00] work really hard to make this next turn.
[41:02] And the part of the the fear that says,
[41:05] "Oh my gosh, you should panic and you
[41:07] should run and you should hide." I don't
[41:10] find a lot of benefit from that. So, I
[41:12] just sort of bifurcate those two and
[41:14] stick the other one, let it go out the
[41:17] window and focus on the part of fear
[41:19] that
[41:20] >> helps me be more focused and more in the
[41:24] zone and more alert. And the part that
[41:27] says you should run or fight or flight,
[41:29] I try to just turn off and not pay
[41:31] attention to. And if I am paying
[41:34] attention to that fear, if I do feel
[41:36] that anxiety fear or that shortness of
[41:39] breath or that and then then I know
[41:41] something's gone horribly wrong and
[41:43] that's that would be a place to just
[41:44] stop and say, I either need to calm down
[41:48] and get rid of that sensibility or or
[41:51] just stop altogether and say I can't do
[41:54] this anymore. I would imagine that that
[41:57] ability to compose yourself in that way
[41:59] just comes with the amount of experience
[42:01] that you've had in these high-risk
[42:03] environments.
[42:04] >> Yeah, for sure. And I've had that sense
[42:07] where that that anxious fear is creeping
[42:10] in and and I'm able to push it back and
[42:13] overcome it. And I've had that sense of
[42:14] just no, that that isn't helping me. So,
[42:18] I'm not gonna I'm not going to listen to
[42:20] it. I'm going to listen to the part that
[42:22] says, "Watch out for what's next or or
[42:25] you're going to regret it."
[42:27] So, you fall in love with Hillary. You
[42:29] guys are building a life together. Um,
[42:33] you kind of inherit her sons from her
[42:37] previous marriage. You're helping to
[42:40] raise these boys. Uh, and you're going
[42:43] out on these adventures. Not only is she
[42:46] your life partner, she's also your
[42:48] partner in adventure crime, you know,
[42:50] like you guys are just going on all of
[42:52] these expeditions as a as a kind of
[42:55] joint unit. And what you share is not
[42:59] only this love of the mountains and and
[43:00] and being mountaineers, but it's the ski
[43:03] aspect of it that is unique in the
[43:06] mountaineering community. Like you're
[43:07] not just climbing these mountains, the
[43:09] whole thing is like we want to ski down
[43:11] them. So talk about how that
[43:14] differentiates you from how people think
[43:16] about climbing and what is the
[43:18] experience of skiing from the summit of
[43:21] a gigantic peak.
[43:24] >> Well, I I guess I'll just tell a story
[43:26] to to talk about that in a minute. We
[43:29] climbed Denali, Hillary and I, and we
[43:32] went there with the desire to climb the
[43:34] Cassin Ridge. I really wanted to climb
[43:36] this this route on the south side of the
[43:39] mountain called the Cassin Ridge, which
[43:40] is 9,000 ft long and technical and and
[43:44] just you has some reasonably hard rock
[43:47] climbing and ice climbing and snow
[43:49] climbing. And
[43:51] uh when we got there, the mountain was
[43:53] in really tough conditions for that
[43:54] route. And this park service said that
[43:56] three parties had done the casino that
[43:58] year. All three of them had been
[44:00] rescued. Could you please pick a
[44:02] different route? And our team name was
[44:05] called Cassine or Bust. And Hillary and
[44:07] I said, "Well, we'll figure it out." We
[44:09] went up on the mountain. We looked at
[44:11] the mountain and we saw really great
[44:14] conditions for skiing. And we ended up
[44:15] climbing to the summit and skiing the
[44:17] Mesnner Koolar, which was kind of a
[44:19] dream run for me at the time and
[44:21] something I'd been chasing my whole
[44:23] life.
[44:24] But I convinced her to go back and to go
[44:26] around the other side of the mountain
[44:27] and climb the cassin. And we did did
[44:29] that and finished that a week later,
[44:31] which was amazing and really fulfilling.
[44:35] But from the summit, we had to walk all
[44:37] the way back to 14,000 ft.
[44:39] >> Mhm. [clears throat]
[44:40] >> And I just I'll never forget her her
[44:45] attitude walking into camp was like that
[44:47] was so dumb walking downhill. Like that
[44:50] so hard. It's physically just really
[44:52] hard to walk downhill. And she just
[44:55] would prefer to ski downhill. So, we we
[44:58] both I think our whole lives looked at
[45:01] mountains as like we want to go up the
[45:03] challenging way. We want to climb the
[45:05] biggest peaks on the planet. But I've
[45:08] always looked at those photos and tried
[45:10] to say, "Well, I don't want to climb
[45:11] this route. There's nowhere to ski. I
[45:13] want to climb this route cuz there's a
[45:15] pleasing and aesthetic way back down on
[45:18] skis." Which is just
[45:21] >> fun and challenging in its own way.
[45:25] I have this quirky theory that pretty
[45:27] much everything is either overrated or
[45:29] underrated. And among the many things I
[45:32] suspect you wildly underrate and
[45:34] underappreciate, I might add, is the
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[45:38] quality of your sleep, which is insane
[45:42] when you consider the ridiculous
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[45:46] it. It does matter and it's precisely
[45:48] because it matters a lot that I have
[45:51] chosen to spend [music] my many night
[45:53] times over the last many years on a
[45:55] mattress made by Birch and why I suggest
[45:58] you not only check them out but check
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[48:00] So hence commences a series of
[48:03] expeditions where you guys are going to
[48:05] like gigantic peaks and skiing down. You
[48:07] do a series of these um and at some
[48:11] point
[48:12] you hatch this plan that you want to do
[48:14] it on Everest and you know the movie
[48:18] chronicles this phase of your life. The
[48:21] whole idea was that you and Hillary were
[48:23] going to do this together.
[48:27] >> And I think it's something both Hillary
[48:30] and I looked at long before we met each
[48:32] other and knew about and followed and
[48:35] read about the North Face of Everest.
[48:37] And and then in 2018, we finally
[48:41] achieved the goal that we had both had
[48:43] of climbing and skiing Lo and the Lo
[48:45] Kuwir, which is right next to Everest.
[48:48] It's the fourth highest mountain in the
[48:49] world.
[48:51] and we skied this sort of dream run of
[48:55] ours and got to the bottom and crossed
[48:56] the burgrun and high-fived and pinched
[48:59] each ourselves and couldn't believe that
[49:01] we'd pulled it off
[49:04] >> and we were the first one ever done
[49:05] that. were the first ones to ever to
[49:07] ever do it and it was a
[49:09] >> for us a true achievement and the best
[49:13] run we'd ever done together or
[49:15] separately I think and at the same time
[49:20] at that moment and like often happens
[49:22] when you're out on a big expedition or a
[49:24] big life project we you sort of dream up
[49:27] the next one and
[49:30] we there was one thing left after that
[49:32] and it was the north face of Everest. So
[49:34] we started
[49:35] talking about it and sometimes nervously
[49:38] talking about it because it's a much
[49:40] bigger endeavor. And after Jimmy came
[49:44] back from Antarctica on a expedition he
[49:46] was on with Conrad Anker and others, he
[49:49] was really high on life and really high
[49:51] on the mountains and we sat down to hear
[49:53] his stories about climbing Ovalana and
[49:55] we pitched him on this idea of we want
[49:58] to go to the North Face and we want to
[50:00] ski it and he'd been there himself
[50:02] trying to do it in 2003. So he was very
[50:05] familiar and intimate with what it was
[50:07] and what it would take. And
[50:09] uh he just kind of had one of those
[50:12] moments where he I think [clears throat]
[50:13] said, "Oh my god,
[50:16] >> this is this is going to happen." And
[50:18] and then we just started [snorts]
[50:20] started down the path. originally
[50:21] planning to climb and ski it in the fall
[50:24] of 2020 and then CO shut us down and the
[50:29] mountain was closed and the world was
[50:30] closed and we delayed until 2021 and
[50:34] year after year we just sort of delayed
[50:36] the trip.
[50:37] >> Mhm. So in 2022
[50:40] you and Hillary go to Manisloo and the
[50:43] idea there was like this is sort of a
[50:46] training mission, right? like we got to
[50:47] get our ski legs going and let's climb
[50:50] this insanely high peak and, you know,
[50:52] get to work on practicing so that we're
[50:55] ready for Everest.
[50:57] Yeah, I think Hillary really wanted to
[50:59] to get up high again and and stay fit
[51:03] and stay connected to what it
[51:06] physiologically would take to
[51:08] acclimatize to a high altitude and
[51:12] didn't want to have so many years
[51:13] between the last time she'd been at
[51:15] extreme altitude and and Everest. And so
[51:18] we went to Monislove to climb and and
[51:21] ski that. And it was really Hillary's
[51:24] trip. it was her her passion and her
[51:27] desire to go. Of course, didn't take
[51:29] much to get me to leap at the
[51:30] opportunity and and go with her. Um,
[51:36] and we climbed through some pretty
[51:39] adverse conditions and made it to the
[51:41] summit. And
[51:43] we started skiing and Hillary started
[51:47] skiing shortly after me and started a
[51:50] small avalanche and
[51:53] was swept off her feet and swept out of
[51:56] sight from where I was. And
[51:59] I started a
[52:03] new chapter of my life at that moment.
[52:06] Trying to
[52:07] find her, trying to rescue her, trying
[52:10] to get to her. I was at that moment
[52:13] certain that she was okay and alive and
[52:16] had stopped herself somewhere down the
[52:18] mountain. And I skied down to try to to
[52:22] get to where I thought I could see her.
[52:24] And I was above a bunch of cliffs. And I
[52:27] knew if I went any farther, there was a
[52:29] really good chance I would perish, which
[52:33] I was entirely willing to do and wanted
[52:36] to do. I wanted to get to her so badly,
[52:38] but I made the decision that I can't do
[52:42] that because if I if I die,
[52:44] [clears throat]
[52:45] I won't be able to help her and she
[52:47] needs my help. And so I climb back up
[52:50] and ski off the other side of the
[52:51] mountain and look for a helicopter. And
[52:55] I guess I want to stop and share that in
[52:57] that moment I
[53:00] when she slid out of sight, I didn't
[53:03] want to be in the mountains anymore. I
[53:06] didn't understand
[53:08] why we were there and why we would take
[53:10] this risk and how we could be in a
[53:14] position where she potentially wasn't
[53:17] coming home to her children.
[53:20] And
[53:23] I had a real difficulty with the
[53:28] decision we'd made to to come there and
[53:30] to do this and
[53:32] spent days searching for her and putting
[53:36] together the best team I could find and
[53:39] in Nepal and worked with the best pilot
[53:42] and the some incredible Sherpa friends
[53:45] to go find her and rescue her and
[53:48] ultimately we found her
[53:50] deceased and
[53:53] dug her out of the ice and
[53:56] we were able to bring her body back and
[53:59] have a cremation ceremony for her and uh
[54:03] I think bring a lot of closure to her
[54:06] family and her friends and her community
[54:08] and the world
[54:11] >> which
[54:13] was tremendous and awful and
[54:19] positive and transformational at the
[54:20] same time that we were able to find her.
[54:24] >> I had no idea that this event had been
[54:28] captured on film and it's quite
[54:32] arresting to actually see this happen on
[54:36] a screen. Um, not only do we see the the
[54:41] the sort of snow shelf just basically
[54:44] dislodge and take her with it down the
[54:47] side of the mountain, we see this like
[54:51] pirick choice that you have to make.
[54:52] like am I going to go down here and and
[54:55] and and and truly like most likely
[54:59] perish in search of trying to recover
[55:01] her or am I going to back up and take a
[55:05] moment and try to enlist the help of
[55:07] others and do this more responsibly? And
[55:09] the pain on your face,
[55:12] it's it's a lot to watch for anybody.
[55:16] Uh, but now
[55:19] it's on a huge IMAX screen.
[55:22] What is that like for you to have to
[55:24] relive that?
[55:29] It's pretty awful to to be blunt. Um,
[55:37] it's something I clearly wish never
[55:39] happened. And had I known it was going
[55:41] to happen, I would have said, "No, let's
[55:44] go.
[55:46] to the beach. Uh, let's do something
[55:48] different.
[55:51] But it did happen and I think
[55:57] the filmmakers decided to share it as
[55:59] part of visual understanding of of what
[56:03] happened. And, you know, we spent six
[56:07] years of our lives with cameras around
[56:09] us. and Hillary and I made the decision
[56:10] that we were going to do this and we
[56:12] agreed to be filmed and we got used to
[56:14] it and it became normal and commonplace
[56:19] and
[56:21] I wasn't sure what they were going to
[56:22] put in the film or not put in the film
[56:24] and
[56:26] it's certainly part of the film that I
[56:28] don't want to watch um over and over but
[56:31] I've replayed that scene in my head
[56:34] thousands of times and when you go
[56:37] through a traumatic event and you're
[56:40] part of it, you it's part of certainly
[56:43] part of what I do is just visualize that
[56:46] situation and replay it over and over
[56:48] and over and over and try to figure out
[56:51] how you can affect a different outcome.
[56:54] And
[56:56] the fact of life is you can't you can't
[56:58] change what happened no matter how many
[57:00] times you obsess over it or cry over it
[57:04] or replay it. And
[57:08] I have done that enough times that I'm
[57:10] now able to watch it and it doesn't
[57:12] totally bring me back to an awful place.
[57:16] And
[57:18] I think what I have done is I try to to
[57:22] accept what's happened to Hillary and
[57:24] I'm trying to carry her forward with me.
[57:27] And I
[57:28] have over time gotten to a place where I
[57:31] feel like she's
[57:33] there with me. And I had a tremendous
[57:36] interaction with her on the summit where
[57:38] I felt like her her spirit and her soul
[57:42] and herself
[57:44] were was there supporting me and
[57:46] encouraging me and that she was proud of
[57:48] what I was doing. And
[57:51] I feel like I can channel that
[57:55] grief and that negativity and the hard
[57:58] hard stuff that I have over time
[58:01] packaged up and decided to carry with
[58:05] me. And and I can I can access a little
[58:09] bit of it right here. just to sort of
[58:10] answer your question of how is that how
[58:13] do you how do you do with with watching
[58:15] your
[58:17] >> you know your life partner your loved
[58:19] one perish right in front of you it's
[58:22] it's not something I would wish on
[58:23] anyone or
[58:26] want anyone to experience but I do think
[58:29] there's value in understanding that you
[58:31] can continue after the worst happens
[58:36] >> after the worst happens a second time.
[58:41] >> A second time. Yeah,
[58:47] >> I would think for almost anyone
[58:51] that's a point of no return to have to
[58:55] weather that again. [clears throat]
[58:58] It's just it's unimaginable, dude. You
[59:01] know, I I mean I like
[59:09] How do you get up out of bed after that?
[59:14] Well, I I have the unfortunate
[59:20] experience with losing your your wife.
[59:24] And I'd spent
[59:30] 11 years waking up every day and going
[59:34] through life every day knowing what it
[59:35] was like to lose your children and lose
[59:37] your wife. And
[59:40] I tried to tell myself that some of that
[59:43] experience were going to help me through
[59:45] this unimaginable event with Hillary.
[59:48] And
[59:51] there were things that I had learned
[59:54] uh that helped me through those many
[59:57] years. And there were things that I
[59:58] tried to not repeat like I I stayed away
[1:00:02] from alcohol afterwards. I I don't think
[1:00:05] that really helped me. Diving deep into
[1:00:09] a bottle of of liquor and inheritating
[1:00:13] myself. Um maybe helped ease some of the
[1:00:17] pain the first time around, but being a
[1:00:21] bit older and
[1:00:23] I just made the decision, okay, I'm not
[1:00:25] going to do that. And um there were
[1:00:28] little things that I did that made it
[1:00:31] more uh
[1:00:35] possible maybe.
[1:00:39] But then there were all kinds of things
[1:00:40] that just
[1:00:42] were new and different and I didn't
[1:00:44] expect and wasn't prepared for and hit
[1:00:47] me in a different and unique way. And
[1:00:50] I've just been treating every day like
[1:00:52] it's a like it's a new day and it's a
[1:00:54] journey. and [sighs]
[1:00:56] I'm just doing my best to to get through
[1:00:58] it and and also
[1:01:02] celebrating that this one and unique
[1:01:05] life that we get to live as a gift and
[1:01:07] I'm happy to be here and I feel really
[1:01:11] fortunate to be living the life that I'm
[1:01:13] living and
[1:01:16] uh I have tremendous and beautiful
[1:01:19] things happen to me all the all the time
[1:01:23] >> and if I And if I didn't allow those to
[1:01:26] happen to me, I think I would just be
[1:01:28] living in this broken and crushed and
[1:01:31] depleted
[1:01:32] place. And it's really just a,
[1:01:37] >> you know, my life is much like an
[1:01:39] endurance run. And there's this thing in
[1:01:42] in endurance sports where like if you're
[1:01:45] going a long way, don't worry, it'll
[1:01:48] change. If you're feeling really good,
[1:01:51] you should probably take in some
[1:01:53] calories and drink some water cuz you're
[1:01:55] you're not going to feel good later. And
[1:01:57] if you're feeling really bad, you should
[1:01:59] probably take in some calories and drink
[1:02:00] some water cuz you you'll get better.
[1:02:04] And I've taken that approach to my life
[1:02:08] in many ways and just, you know, know
[1:02:10] that I'll come through some of the
[1:02:12] troughs. And I spent a lot of time
[1:02:15] talking to my therapist about my life
[1:02:16] feeling like a stock chart, like the ups
[1:02:19] and downs of the S&P 500.
[1:02:22] And if you just if you're an investor
[1:02:25] and you know that eventually it's going
[1:02:28] to come back, you don't always sell at
[1:02:30] the bottom and
[1:02:32] you know panic. you you realize things
[1:02:34] are going to move forward
[1:02:37] >> with the
[1:02:38] vast vacasillations of your stock market
[1:02:41] ticker or waveform or whatever you want
[1:02:44] to call it. Um that's set against this
[1:02:48] sort of unspoken assumption that your
[1:02:51] life would be better if that curve was
[1:02:53] flattened like and and you're living a
[1:02:56] more balanced life. And you know,
[1:02:58] Hillary the movie is like talking about
[1:03:00] getting the balance question and saying
[1:03:02] she wants to punch people in the face uh
[1:03:05] around that. Like that's a whole other
[1:03:08] side side question. But
[1:03:11] one difference in these two tragic
[1:03:14] incidents in your life is that is that
[1:03:16] what happened with Hillary was very much
[1:03:19] a public thing. like at this point
[1:03:21] you're public figures and she is this
[1:03:25] just absolutely beloved person not just
[1:03:29] in the climbing community but she
[1:03:32] touched so many people that are way
[1:03:35] outside of this community and you know I
[1:03:37] had the good fortune as I said earlier
[1:03:39] to have met her only once and you know
[1:03:42] maybe we spent a half a day together but
[1:03:44] that's one of the podcasts and
[1:03:46] experiences that that you know I reflect
[1:03:49] on the most of the thousand that I've
[1:03:51] done. Like she just was that kind of
[1:03:53] person. So for people that aren't
[1:03:56] familiar with Hillary Nelson, like what
[1:03:58] was it about her that made her this
[1:04:02] indelible
[1:04:04] figure that inspired so many people all
[1:04:07] over the world?
[1:04:11] Well, she was she was beautiful in mind,
[1:04:16] body, and and energy. She she carried a
[1:04:20] incredible smile. She was incredibly
[1:04:23] fit. She was really strong and
[1:04:27] independent and I think at the same time
[1:04:32] really really humble and really kind and
[1:04:36] really desirous to just
[1:04:39] uplift the people around her and and
[1:04:42] live a good life and live a really
[1:04:45] independent uh driven passionate life. I
[1:04:49] I think she said something about having
[1:04:53] a passion as a compass in life being
[1:04:55] really important and I've latched on to
[1:04:59] that and I think that really defines who
[1:05:02] Hillary is and she picked something that
[1:05:05] she was really passionate about and she
[1:05:07] just drove forward with that that
[1:05:09] passion is something that helped guide
[1:05:11] her in all her
[1:05:13] >> ups and downs and she had a tremendous
[1:05:16] impact on
[1:05:18] people all over the world. And the the
[1:05:20] outpouring of of love and support for
[1:05:23] her after she passed away was
[1:05:27] truly remarkable. And I
[1:05:31] I think that she, you know, has helped
[1:05:35] so many young women and men decide that
[1:05:38] they can they can go do their own
[1:05:41] Hillary [clears throat] moments. And I
[1:05:44] don't think she quite understood the
[1:05:45] impact that she had on you or on the
[1:05:48] world. She was just doing her best and
[1:05:51] as you see in the in the film, just
[1:05:53] trying to not get frustrated with how do
[1:05:56] I pack my bags and finance and prepare
[1:05:59] for this big expedition and this big
[1:06:01] goal in my life and yet get my children
[1:06:04] fed and off to the bus on time cuz every
[1:06:07] single day at home is a new challenge of
[1:06:08] just getting them awake and clothed and
[1:06:11] out of the house and off to school and
[1:06:14] all the things in between that. And I
[1:06:16] think she juggled a a lot in her life
[1:06:19] and really did it with a lot of mastery.
[1:06:24] Although looking into herself, she was
[1:06:27] constantly like,
[1:06:29] "Am I am I good enough? Am
[1:06:32] [clears throat] I doing okay?
[1:06:34] I'm failing at at all these parts of my
[1:06:36] life." But in reality, she was she was
[1:06:39] crushing it and succeeding
[1:06:42] >> because of the way that she lived her
[1:06:44] life.
[1:06:46] She became sort of an avatar for this
[1:06:51] broader discussion around the tension
[1:06:53] between like adult responsibility
[1:06:57] and
[1:06:59] fidelity to authenticity. Like she is a
[1:07:02] mom of these, you know, adolescent
[1:07:05] teenage boys. She has responsibility to
[1:07:09] make sure that they're taken care of.
[1:07:11] but she's just this person who in order
[1:07:14] to be her has to go and do these things.
[1:07:18] And how do you square that equation? And
[1:07:21] lots of people have lots of opinions
[1:07:23] about this. On the one hand, like she is
[1:07:26] the model of the the strong woman who's
[1:07:29] not going to be told that she's got to
[1:07:31] be in the kitchen. Like she's going to
[1:07:33] go do Hillary come hell or high water.
[1:07:37] And not only is she going to go do it,
[1:07:39] she needs to do that in order to be able
[1:07:42] to show up as the best mom that she
[1:07:45] possibly can. On the other side of the
[1:07:48] equation, like how dare she do this?
[1:07:50] Like,
[1:07:52] how irresponsible of her to put herself
[1:07:55] in these risky situations and create a
[1:07:57] scenario in which these boys no longer
[1:08:01] have a mother.
[1:08:02] >> Yeah. And Hillary struggled with that
[1:08:05] internally a lot. Um,
[1:08:08] Jimmy at her memorial service called her
[1:08:11] Athena in Gortex. For people that don't
[1:08:14] know who Hillary was, she was she was
[1:08:16] kind of Athena in in an outfit ready to
[1:08:20] go climb a mountain.
[1:08:23] And
[1:08:24] she was incredibly strong and powerful
[1:08:27] in her own right. And she
[1:08:31] got there through a
[1:08:33] incredible parents, a a really strong
[1:08:36] childhood where she was brought up in
[1:08:39] Seattle and spent a lot of time on a
[1:08:41] boat, had a lot of time by herself, had
[1:08:44] an older brother, an older sister, a lot
[1:08:46] of independence and a lot of freedom
[1:08:48] outside,
[1:08:50] but also grew up in this sort of normal
[1:08:53] patriarchal society and didn't didn't
[1:08:57] want to be that woman in the kitchen
[1:09:00] didn't want to be that person that
[1:09:03] needed to listen to this is what you do
[1:09:05] and this is who you are and she was
[1:09:08] really driven to show herself and
[1:09:13] I think in many ways to her more
[1:09:16] importantly show her children and the
[1:09:18] world that you can have a passion and
[1:09:21] you can live your passion while you
[1:09:24] still exist in our society and on our
[1:09:27] norms. terms
[1:09:29] of being a mother. And [clears throat]
[1:09:32] you know, she would go on these
[1:09:33] expeditions and she'd come back and
[1:09:35] she'd read the comments about, "How dare
[1:09:37] you? How dare you as a as a woman with
[1:09:40] children go do something that were that
[1:09:43] would risk you not coming home."
[1:09:46] And she was dumbfounded with the fact
[1:09:48] that the men that were on those trips
[1:09:51] that didn't have children weren't
[1:09:53] receiving the same comments or that did
[1:09:55] have children.
[1:09:55] >> They did have children, excuse me.
[1:09:56] Right. Right. and she just she just
[1:10:00] couldn't understand why are we as a
[1:10:02] society so focused on there's only you
[1:10:05] know the woman has to be the one that
[1:10:08] needs to stay back and needs to stay
[1:10:10] behind and
[1:10:12] I think she endeavored to have a a true
[1:10:16] balance in in that even though balance
[1:10:20] is hard
[1:10:22] uh she would go to these mountains and
[1:10:24] she would go up along the route and she
[1:10:27] would find somebody that was struggling
[1:10:29] and she'd say, "Let me carry that for
[1:10:31] you. Let me put the tent in my pack. Let
[1:10:34] me put the group group stove in my pack.
[1:10:36] Yes, I also have this other group gear."
[1:10:39] And she would [clears throat]
[1:10:41] historically typically have the heaviest
[1:10:43] pack, man or woman, on the expedition.
[1:10:46] And that's why everyone was so blown
[1:10:48] away by her strength and her fortitude
[1:10:50] in the mountains and her being in front
[1:10:52] still breaking trail for the Sherpa and
[1:10:55] for me while we're going up Monisloo to
[1:10:57] the summit. She's in the front of the
[1:10:59] pack breaking trail. And
[1:11:04] then she would come back to Tellide and
[1:11:07] she would be thrust back into being a
[1:11:09] mom and going to drop off and
[1:11:12] interacting with her friends in this
[1:11:15] normal everyday world of of life at
[1:11:20] home. And that balance was was always
[1:11:23] hard for her, but she did her best to
[1:11:27] walk a fine line through it in the
[1:11:29] manner that she thought was the right
[1:11:31] way to live. It's sort of the version of
[1:11:34] the special operator who returns home
[1:11:36] after, you know, spending time in a
[1:11:38] conflict zone and and has trouble
[1:11:40] acclimating to daily life. Like I would
[1:11:42] imagine returning from some of these
[1:11:44] extraordinary expeditions there is a
[1:11:47] version of that that that you her and
[1:11:50] just your fellow climbers experience.
[1:11:53] Yeah. You come back from this, you know,
[1:11:56] edge of possible existence, pushing
[1:11:59] yourself in a really inhospitable world
[1:12:02] and environment and pushing yourself
[1:12:03] really hard physically, mentally and
[1:12:07] and doing it with a team that you
[1:12:11] endow yourself to. You commit to and you
[1:12:14] know you put your lives in each other's
[1:12:16] hands. And then you you're back home
[1:12:19] waiting in line for a sandwich and you
[1:12:21] see the girl at your sandwich shop and
[1:12:23] she says, "How's it going, Jim?"
[1:12:26] And you're just like, "Well, I I just
[1:12:28] had this crazy event in my life and now
[1:12:31] I'm trying to reassimilate into normaly
[1:12:35] and we call that PTSD, which is
[1:12:37] post-traumatic stoke disorder."
[1:12:39] >> Mhm.
[1:12:39] >> Um it's hard and it's it's also
[1:12:44] wonderful, you I think we're really
[1:12:45] fortunate to be able to push ourselves
[1:12:47] in a way that
[1:12:50] takes mundane life and makes that a
[1:12:52] challenge and something worth living for
[1:12:55] and takes the opposite of mundane and
[1:12:57] makes it a challenge and worth living
[1:12:59] for and [snorts] tries to force us to or
[1:13:02] we try to force ourselves to find a
[1:13:05] balance in all that.
[1:13:08] In the wake of Hillary's passing, uh,
[1:13:12] you now inherit this role in the boy's
[1:13:16] life, a different type of role. The boys
[1:13:19] appear in the movie. Their screen time
[1:13:21] isn't very much, but I think they're
[1:13:24] really the centerpiece of the
[1:13:26] discussions that are happening around
[1:13:27] the movie. this relationship that
[1:13:30] Hillary had to her sons, your
[1:13:32] responsibility to these boys, and the
[1:13:35] decision that you are going to continue
[1:13:37] in this quest to summit the north face
[1:13:40] of Everest and and and ski down, which
[1:13:43] is
[1:13:45] somewhat understandably, I suppose,
[1:13:48] difficult for the average person to get
[1:13:50] their head around. Like, haven't these
[1:13:53] boys suffered enough? Why would you put
[1:13:55] yourself in a position for them to have
[1:13:57] to suffer this again potentially,
[1:14:01] especially after you witnessing
[1:14:05] Hillary's passing and having this
[1:14:07] realization like I don't even want to be
[1:14:09] on this mountain and you know like
[1:14:11] having a having having your like
[1:14:13] relationship with the mountains be
[1:14:14] rearranged by that traumatic event.
[1:14:20] Well, when we lost Hillary,
[1:14:24] I
[1:14:26] felt compelled to do whatever it took to
[1:14:30] go as far and as hard as I could to find
[1:14:32] her and to find her her body,
[1:14:36] >> which you did,
[1:14:37] >> which I did. Then I felt really I felt a
[1:14:42] tremendous sense of responsibility of
[1:14:44] what to do next and how would she want
[1:14:48] to be
[1:14:50] taken care of in the afterlife
[1:14:53] which resulted in us creating this
[1:14:55] cremation ceremony. And
[1:14:59] then I came back to Tellide and I
[1:15:01] figured out what what do I do next? And
[1:15:03] I wanted to plan a memorial service. And
[1:15:06] in that
[1:15:09] thought process, in that journey of what
[1:15:11] to do throughout the whole thing, my
[1:15:13] overarching goal was those boys was how
[1:15:16] do I find I wanted to find her for her
[1:15:19] parents. I wanted to find her for her
[1:15:21] brother and sister, but more importantly
[1:15:25] than anyone else was for those boys. And
[1:15:29] then I wanted to celebrate her so that
[1:15:32] the boys could see that impact that we
[1:15:35] talked about that she had on the world
[1:15:38] that they didn't truly know and
[1:15:40] understand.
[1:15:41] To them, she was just mom. To them, she
[1:15:45] was mom that dragged them up mountains
[1:15:47] and made them go on mountain bike rides
[1:15:49] that they didn't want to go on and, you
[1:15:52] know, dragged them through the mud, so
[1:15:54] to speak, to build some character in
[1:15:57] them. And they loved it and they hated
[1:16:00] it. And it was sort of a typical
[1:16:01] [snorts] relationship with mom. But
[1:16:06] to the world, Hillary was this Athenaike
[1:16:10] woman who
[1:16:12] broke barriers and moved mountains, so
[1:16:16] to speak. And I wanted the boys to know
[1:16:19] and understand that. And so I started
[1:16:22] trying to plan just a celebration of her
[1:16:25] life where I wanted people to speak
[1:16:28] about who Hillary was to them. And I
[1:16:30] think that
[1:16:32] involved, you know, really influential,
[1:16:35] amazing people that had spent time with
[1:16:37] her in the mountains. It involved
[1:16:38] senators. It talked about how she made
[1:16:42] things change in in climate and in
[1:16:45] Congress. And
[1:16:47] talked about the tremendous impact that
[1:16:49] Hillary had left on all of us. And
[1:16:54] then next became day-to-day life of how
[1:16:57] can I keep that going forward? And
[1:17:01] a friend of mine, Timmy O'Neal, said at
[1:17:03] her memorial service that people die
[1:17:06] twice. They die when their soul leaves
[1:17:09] their body and they die a second time
[1:17:12] when spoken word or stories about them
[1:17:14] cease to be told.
[1:17:16] And I took that as a direction and a
[1:17:22] demand to celebrate who Hillary was. And
[1:17:26] going back to Everest became
[1:17:30] a endeavor where we could tell the full
[1:17:34] story about who she was and share that
[1:17:36] with the world and put it on finish this
[1:17:39] film that we were working on and we were
[1:17:41] going to finish either way. it was
[1:17:43] either going to have one outcome or a
[1:17:45] different outcome.
[1:17:47] And I just felt like it was the right
[1:17:50] and honorable thing to do was to try to
[1:17:52] keep going. I thought she would want me
[1:17:53] to do that. And I sit here today proud
[1:17:57] of what we did. And I totally think it's
[1:18:02] fair and understandable that some people
[1:18:04] will watch it and disagree. And some
[1:18:06] people will be threatened by the concept
[1:18:09] of taking those risks and pushing
[1:18:12] yourself that far. And why would you do
[1:18:14] that? And shame on you.
[1:18:16] Well, you've certainly not only did you
[1:18:18] succeed in the goal of summiting and
[1:18:21] skiing down, like you've succeeded in
[1:18:23] creating
[1:18:25] new interest in her story. Like we're
[1:18:28] sitting here today talking about it.
[1:18:29] This movie is going to come out.
[1:18:30] Everybody's going to be talking about
[1:18:32] her. So, she lives on in that way. and
[1:18:35] she lives on in that you committed to
[1:18:39] seeing through this thing that you were
[1:18:41] going to do jointly with her.
[1:18:43] >> Yeah. And I and I did that through this
[1:18:46] selfish act of climbing a mountain and
[1:18:50] skiing down.
[1:18:51] And if if
[1:18:54] if there's there's no other way to
[1:18:59] describe what you do with your free time
[1:19:01] to fuel your body and fuel your mind and
[1:19:07] go out a little farther than you were on
[1:19:09] your last run than saying it's selfish.
[1:19:12] You leave your family behind. You leave
[1:19:14] your kids behind. you leave your
[1:19:15] community behind to go spend those time
[1:19:18] putting in those miles on the trail and
[1:19:20] climbing your proverbial Everest.
[1:19:25] It is selfish. So, I don't want people
[1:19:27] to think that I don't think
[1:19:30] that it is such a such an act. There's
[1:19:32] lots of things we do that are selfish.
[1:19:35] And there's also things that we do that
[1:19:36] that are of necessity like getting up in
[1:19:39] the morning and eating breakfast and
[1:19:40] eating fueling your body is is a
[1:19:42] necessity.
[1:19:45] And then on top of that, the high-risk
[1:19:47] aspect of this that people struggle to
[1:19:51] truly understand. We were talking before
[1:19:52] the podcast and
[1:19:55] and I was saying that part of that is
[1:19:58] premised upon a misconception around the
[1:20:02] certainty of life. Like life is
[1:20:04] uncertain, there's no guarantees. And we
[1:20:06] sort of say that flippantly
[1:20:09] while also believing that if we live our
[1:20:13] lives in a in a kind of traditional way
[1:20:16] that we then are in control of the
[1:20:19] future in a way that we're not. That is
[1:20:21] truly an illusion. And so people like
[1:20:23] yourself and Alex Honold and you know
[1:20:26] these sort of like individuals who have
[1:20:29] a different relationship with risk uh
[1:20:31] are confronting for the average person
[1:20:34] who is living their life in a way where
[1:20:36] they're trying to create security
[1:20:38] through predicting the future and this
[1:20:41] sort of illusion of being able to
[1:20:43] control outcomes. What's going to happen
[1:20:45] tomorrow? Well, if I do this then I'll
[1:20:46] be safe tomorrow.
[1:20:49] And your life is a testament I mean it's
[1:20:51] in the context of taking tremendous
[1:20:53] risks but your life is a testament to
[1:20:55] this uncertainty like things happen
[1:20:58] they're bad but we still have to move
[1:21:01] forward get up every single day and the
[1:21:04] best way to honor these people who have
[1:21:07] passed that we love is to bring them
[1:21:09] with us and to live the best life that
[1:21:12] we can rather than ruminate or become a
[1:21:16] victim or isolate from community and
[1:21:19] humanity and nature.
[1:21:22] I appreciate that. I think
[1:21:26] I've
[1:21:28] I've been given the
[1:21:31] the opportunity to move forward with
[1:21:35] life after tremendous loss. And I've
[1:21:38] taken it as as just that. Uh I could say
[1:21:43] woe is me every day and say I wish my
[1:21:45] kids were here. I wish I was going to
[1:21:48] parents weekend like friends of mine are
[1:21:50] at their respective colleges this
[1:21:53] weekend. Or I could wish I still had
[1:21:56] them like the two infants I held in my
[1:21:59] arms last night. A couple friends that
[1:22:01] had baby girls recently,
[1:22:05] but I I don't have them here. And I
[1:22:11] didn't make a choice to not have them
[1:22:13] here. I make a choice of how am I going
[1:22:16] to spend my time and how am I going to
[1:22:18] move forward and sometimes I take
[1:22:21] unnecessary risks. Uh and there are
[1:22:25] there are those that don't think
[1:22:27] unnecessary risks are worth taking. I
[1:22:30] was walking to a rock climb recently and
[1:22:34] this is somewhere I go often and there's
[1:22:36] a tree that fell down across this uh
[1:22:39] ravine of granite. And I kept looking at
[1:22:42] that tree thinking I could walk across
[1:22:44] the tree instead of walking down into
[1:22:46] the bottom and back up, but it was it
[1:22:49] was like a teeter totter. And one day I
[1:22:51] walked across it and it it teetered
[1:22:54] until the other end of the tree hit the
[1:22:55] rock on the other side and stopped. And
[1:22:58] then I was able to continue across it.
[1:23:00] And it looked a little sketchy. It
[1:23:01] looked like maybe you would fall off if
[1:23:03] if you did it. And I was walking up
[1:23:06] there with a friend and I did it with
[1:23:08] her and she said, "That's an unnecessary
[1:23:11] risk." She walked around. And I and I
[1:23:14] was like, "Wow, that is a really good
[1:23:16] name for a rock climb." Uh I I really
[1:23:20] like that. And I thought about it a lot
[1:23:22] since. And I'm a person that likes to
[1:23:25] take unnecessary risks. I realize that
[1:23:28] in of of myself and I don't think
[1:23:30] there's something
[1:23:32] inherently wrong with that. I wasn't
[1:23:35] endangering anyone else. And I like
[1:23:39] pushing myself a little bit whether it's
[1:23:41] in this conversation with you or in
[1:23:44] walking to the crag instead of doing the
[1:23:47] the same normaly of what I normally do.
[1:23:50] I like trying to find a faster way
[1:23:52] across that little ravine and shave a
[1:23:55] few seconds off and do a little more.
[1:23:58] That's just who I am.
[1:23:59] >> I saw some panel discussion and it was
[1:24:01] you and Alex and Jimmy. I don't know
[1:24:03] what event this was. cuz I was watching
[1:24:04] it this morning and
[1:24:07] there was a question around like
[1:24:08] motivation and drive and Jimmy was like
[1:24:12] Jim doesn't have an issue with this like
[1:24:13] you just wake up every day like with
[1:24:16] this feeling like of I have to
[1:24:17] [clears throat] do something you know
[1:24:19] not necessarily crazy but like I have to
[1:24:20] push myself and you know where is that
[1:24:22] edge and what am I trying to accomplish
[1:24:24] today like you don't have a problem with
[1:24:27] that like you just wake up animated to
[1:24:29] >> no I'm just I'm an achiever I I took the
[1:24:31] the I there's a book called
[1:24:33] StrengthFinder. And I I did that many
[1:24:35] many years ago. And I if you fill out a
[1:24:38] form, you do it online, you take a test,
[1:24:40] it tells you what your strengths are.
[1:24:41] And there's a book full of all these
[1:24:43] great wonderful attributes that all of
[1:24:45] us humans have. And my number one was
[1:24:48] achiever. And and what I read in that
[1:24:51] description of what achiever means is
[1:24:52] you start every day at zero.
[1:24:54] >> Mhm.
[1:24:54] >> No matter what you did yesterday, you're
[1:24:56] starting over today. You've got to
[1:24:58] achieve something. You got to get there.
[1:25:00] And it's a it's a blessing and a curse.
[1:25:03] But it's just how I how I am. How am I
[1:25:05] going to maximize what I'm going to get
[1:25:07] out of this day? And when someone turns
[1:25:10] to me and says, "It seems like you're
[1:25:12] just trying to like figure out how you
[1:25:14] can fit more into your day and do even
[1:25:16] more and get more out of it. Like when
[1:25:18] are is you're driving me crazy." And I
[1:25:20] I'll look back at them like what else
[1:25:23] would you do? Like if we can get this
[1:25:25] done and go for a run and have a
[1:25:28] wonderful dinner where we meet some new
[1:25:30] people and have
[1:25:31] >> a great time and do something we've
[1:25:34] never done and before we go to bed
[1:25:37] tonight, that seems good to me. I mean,
[1:25:39] if we can solve the [clears throat]
[1:25:41] cancer and
[1:25:43] help somebody across the road and do
[1:25:46] something else, I'd much prefer to do
[1:25:48] that than than less.
[1:25:49] >> I'm with you. I'm wired the same way.
[1:25:52] Uh, but I think Echar Tol might have
[1:25:54] choice words for that. You know, he's a
[1:25:56] guy it's it's a Zen Cohen because you
[1:25:59] want to wake up excited about life and
[1:26:01] you want to chase things and achieve
[1:26:02] things and build things and be of
[1:26:04] service to people and, you know, have
[1:26:07] that relationship with life that is
[1:26:10] invigorating while also at the same time
[1:26:13] recognizing that
[1:26:15] stillness is actually the place to be.
[1:26:18] And if that impulse to climb the giant
[1:26:21] mountain is being animated around a
[1:26:25] story of whatever happened to you when
[1:26:27] you were a kid and this misconception
[1:26:31] that that summit is going to make you
[1:26:35] feel a certain way about yourself or
[1:26:37] fulfill a need or like a hole in your
[1:26:41] soul. Um then you're kind of on this
[1:26:45] hamster wheel.
[1:26:46] >> Absolutely. that you can never get off
[1:26:48] of. And the exit ramp to that hamster
[1:26:51] wheel is the path that Eart is talking
[1:26:55] about. And these things have to kind of
[1:26:56] live in tandem with each other. For me,
[1:27:00] that's what I found they have to do. He
[1:27:02] he not only does he talk about stillness
[1:27:04] being important, he talks about standing
[1:27:06] in line at the grocery store and seeing
[1:27:09] that infant and flirting with her and
[1:27:12] getting the joy out of that. And he
[1:27:14] talks about not
[1:27:18] sitting in your backyard watching the
[1:27:20] seagull come and land perpetually. You
[1:27:25] there has to be a balance in that. You
[1:27:27] can't just
[1:27:28] >> say, "Okay, I'm going to focus on
[1:27:30] accepting all the good in my life and
[1:27:32] I'm going to sit outside in my backyard
[1:27:34] which has this incredible view, the
[1:27:37] place that I live in Lake Tahoe."
[1:27:40] And I have been given so much by that
[1:27:43] environment and that sublime view that I
[1:27:47] have. And I've taken so much from being
[1:27:50] there. And it and it infuses me with a
[1:27:53] lot of good things. And it's allowed me
[1:27:55] to slow down and accept and
[1:27:58] process and just be still. But for me, I
[1:28:02] can't do it perpetually. I have to
[1:28:04] continue to challenge myself and I have
[1:28:07] to continue to put myself out there in
[1:28:09] my society and not just go build a house
[1:28:13] in the woods and
[1:28:15] do nothing. Uh that doesn't feel like
[1:28:19] the right path for me. And it is a
[1:28:21] constant
[1:28:23] struggle of of am I [clears throat]
[1:28:24] present or am I just trying to create a
[1:28:26] new problem to go solve. After seeing
[1:28:30] Free Solo, I didn't think it was
[1:28:31] possible for Jimmy or anyone else to
[1:28:35] create
[1:28:38] an adventure documentary that could
[1:28:40] compete with what he achieved in that
[1:28:42] film.
[1:28:44] This movie does that. The visuals are so
[1:28:48] arresting and I just watched it at home
[1:28:49] on my television. I can't imagine what
[1:28:51] it looks like in IMAX. I can't wait to
[1:28:54] see it in the [clears throat] theater in
[1:28:55] that way. Um,
[1:28:58] on some level it's a sports documentary.
[1:29:01] You're seeing avalanches. You get a
[1:29:04] sense of how precipitous the grade is
[1:29:06] when you're skiing down and how icy it
[1:29:09] is and
[1:29:11] just one small move and it's over with.
[1:29:13] Like I just my palms were sweating. I
[1:29:16] just couldn't believe
[1:29:18] how compelling and arresting and and
[1:29:21] gripping it was. I really felt like I
[1:29:24] was there like in lock step with what
[1:29:27] was happening.
[1:29:30] It's expertly rendered and it's also a
[1:29:33] really difficult watch
[1:29:36] and it's been interesting to gauge this
[1:29:38] early reaction to the movie and the
[1:29:41] conversations that are percolating up
[1:29:43] around it. Even though the only people
[1:29:45] that have seen it to date are people who
[1:29:48] have attended these festivals. Venice
[1:29:50] Film Festival, Telluride Film Festival,
[1:29:53] Toronto, right? Those are the big three.
[1:29:55] I'm a huge movie buff. I listen to all
[1:29:58] these movie podcasts. I have a favorite
[1:30:00] film commentator. This guy Sean
[1:30:02] Fennessy, he co-hosts a a podcast called
[1:30:05] The Big Picture.
[1:30:08] and he said,
[1:30:11] "This movie looks incredible. It has
[1:30:14] pulverizing emotional moments. It's one
[1:30:17] of those movies like everyone was
[1:30:18] talking about at all of these festivals.
[1:30:20] Like, you got to go see it. It's a
[1:30:21] mustsee. It's a mustsee. I'm not going
[1:30:23] to tell you what happens, but like you
[1:30:24] have to see it."
[1:30:26] He also said, "It's about people whose
[1:30:28] psychologies I don't understand at all.
[1:30:31] Like, I have no idea what compels people
[1:30:33] to do the things that they do in these
[1:30:36] films."
[1:30:37] And I also had some frankly like ethical
[1:30:41] misgivings about it like should this
[1:30:44] movie even exist while also weeping
[1:30:48] three times
[1:30:50] during the movie and I think that
[1:30:52] crystallizes
[1:30:54] how many people are going to feel when
[1:30:58] they see this movie. There is this
[1:31:00] internal conflict. I'm seeing this
[1:31:03] arresting thing. It's so astonishing.
[1:31:06] There is something celebratory about you
[1:31:09] seeing this through and having this
[1:31:12] cathartic moment at not only achieving
[1:31:14] your goal, but as a symbol of
[1:31:17] reconciliation for all of the loss that
[1:31:20] you have endured, while also having
[1:31:24] these emotions around the risks that you
[1:31:28] have taken and the people who are in the
[1:31:32] crosshairs as a result of the risks. And
[1:31:34] it's not just you. The movie does a good
[1:31:36] job of going into the homes of so many
[1:31:39] of the crew members and the people and
[1:31:41] the sherpas etc. All of whom also have
[1:31:43] families, sometimes children, spouses,
[1:31:48] uh newly there's a newly married couple
[1:31:51] and you get a real sense of the wager
[1:31:53] that's taking place for not just you but
[1:31:57] all of the people that have bought into
[1:31:59] you realizing this dream.
[1:32:02] And I think it's really difficult for
[1:32:04] the average person who, like we were
[1:32:06] talking about earlier, who has a
[1:32:07] different relationship with risk, who
[1:32:09] isn't called to the mountains in the way
[1:32:12] that you and Hillary are to get their
[1:32:15] heads around this.
[1:32:17] So, what do you want to say to that
[1:32:18] person who is feeling that internal
[1:32:21] tension and is unsure
[1:32:24] about how to feel about this film and
[1:32:27] and not just the film, but like the
[1:32:29] actual lived events that transpire on
[1:32:32] the film?
[1:32:35] There's a there's that's a really
[1:32:37] profound and and deep question that I
[1:32:40] think will take the rest of my life to
[1:32:43] fully think about how to answer. And I
[1:32:46] hope I will sit down and write a book
[1:32:48] about it at some point.
[1:32:50] But I think you said something earlier
[1:32:54] about
[1:32:56] painting painting a line and and at that
[1:33:00] moment I thought about a climb and a ski
[1:33:03] that Hillary and I did on a a mountain
[1:33:05] in India where she had been for 20 plus
[1:33:09] years trying to get to this mountain
[1:33:11] this and she carried a photograph of it
[1:33:13] and she had made a life out of trying to
[1:33:16] get to this mountain and we skied it and
[1:33:18] we made the first descent of it and the
[1:33:20] Next day it snowed and our tracks, the
[1:33:22] lines we painted on it were erased
[1:33:24] forever.
[1:33:26] >> Like a mandelola, like the monks who do
[1:33:28] the sand mandelas.
[1:33:29] >> Yeah. And I I guess to some degree this
[1:33:32] would be our passion and in our art.
[1:33:37] Uh
[1:33:39] I feel compelled to do what I do. It's
[1:33:43] it's not something that I'm making just
[1:33:46] a conscious decision to do, which
[1:33:48] certainly I am. I am a very fortunate
[1:33:53] human being that has everything that I
[1:33:55] could need and want and I can do what I
[1:33:58] want to do and I it's not lost on me
[1:34:00] that I have tremendous good fortune to
[1:34:03] put me in this chair. But
[1:34:07] I'm just living who I am. And I have I
[1:34:09] have this calling and I've gotten good
[1:34:11] at it. I've found it along the way. And
[1:34:13] it's it's what I do. It's it and I don't
[1:34:17] really believe in you are what you do.
[1:34:20] I'm more of the of the mindset of you do
[1:34:23] what you are. And this is who I am. And
[1:34:27] I'm compelled to do it and I'm good at
[1:34:30] it. And I know I can do it. I knew I
[1:34:34] could accomplish this goal and I
[1:34:37] struggled a lot with should I keep going
[1:34:40] uh not only after losing Hillary but
[1:34:42] after going there and failing and going
[1:34:45] back and failing again
[1:34:47] >> and it was never lost on me that there
[1:34:49] was a tremendous amount of risk not just
[1:34:51] for me but for the entire team that was
[1:34:54] [clears throat] there supporting me
[1:34:58] but they wanted to do it too and that's
[1:35:00] who they were they were collectively
[1:35:03] joined in this effort to try to achieve
[1:35:06] this goal of getting to the top of the
[1:35:09] mountain so that I could ski back down.
[1:35:12] I understand it if you just can't look
[1:35:14] at that and find meaning in it or or
[1:35:17] find hope or find joy
[1:35:21] or see the music that we're trying to
[1:35:24] play or or appreciate the art that we're
[1:35:27] trying to make. Uh,
[1:35:31] and there be plenty of people that
[1:35:32] listen to that that just poo poo it and
[1:35:35] disagree and and I think that's okay. We
[1:35:38] We're all We all have different passions
[1:35:40] in life and we're all here for different
[1:35:42] reasons. And
[1:35:46] I've from a very young age was compelled
[1:35:49] to ski off the off the pie off the side
[1:35:52] of the run and felt a tremendous
[1:35:55] satisfaction of going somewhere that I
[1:35:58] felt like people hadn't gone before and
[1:36:01] exploring whether that was in my
[1:36:03] backyard or in the game I was playing in
[1:36:05] my room or on Everest. And I think for
[1:36:11] me that's provided a tremendous amount
[1:36:13] of drive and and passion and selfworth
[1:36:19] and I've tried to honor that and push it
[1:36:22] forward.
[1:36:24] You mentioned the art of it
[1:36:27] and when you use that word, I can't help
[1:36:29] but think about Dean Potter
[1:36:32] and this Dark Wizard series that, you
[1:36:35] know, came out recently because he very
[1:36:38] much inhabited the artist spirit in
[1:36:41] terms of his
[1:36:43] relationship with adventure and risk and
[1:36:46] was somebody who
[1:36:49] who leveraged his darkness to achieve
[1:36:52] these amazing things in both healthy and
[1:36:55] unhealthy ways. Like he was trying to
[1:36:57] reach
[1:36:59] some sense of purity of existence. Like
[1:37:03] that was the kind of event horizon of of
[1:37:07] his quest. But while he was motivated by
[1:37:12] you know some really like challenging
[1:37:14] emotional dark
[1:37:18] inspirations.
[1:37:20] I see yours as very different. I mean,
[1:37:22] first of all, I would dismiss people who
[1:37:26] want to look at what you have done or
[1:37:28] just your relationship with the outdoors
[1:37:32] at large as some kind of ego-driven
[1:37:36] stunt thing. Like, this isn't like
[1:37:39] a Red Bull situation, you know, where
[1:37:41] you're just trying to do an insane thing
[1:37:44] for the LS and the likes.
[1:37:47] nor is your motivation one that comes
[1:37:52] from from that like really gristly dark
[1:37:55] place. Like I feel like your why
[1:37:58] is deeper and more profound. Like you're
[1:38:01] trying to make sense of these things
[1:38:02] that have happened in your life. You're
[1:38:04] trying to reconcile your grief and your
[1:38:06] loss. You're trying to
[1:38:09] connect with the divine or the ineffable
[1:38:12] or try to have a spiritual understanding
[1:38:14] of your place in the world and come to
[1:38:17] or arrive at a place of peace with all
[1:38:20] of this so that you can come down from
[1:38:21] the mountain and share for the benefit
[1:38:24] of others what you have discovered by
[1:38:27] dancing at the very edges of what's
[1:38:30] possible. Like I that's how I see the
[1:38:33] whole thing. And it puts you in a a
[1:38:35] powerful position to speak to people who
[1:38:37] have suffered loss and grief and share
[1:38:40] some inspiration and some tools for how
[1:38:43] to process this and how to move forward
[1:38:45] and how to continue to engage with
[1:38:50] the beautiful temporary aspect of being
[1:38:53] in a human body.
[1:38:55] I appreciate that. Um, I think that my
[1:39:00] my journey through
[1:39:02] climbing mountains and and taking risks
[1:39:05] is is certainly different than Dean
[1:39:08] Potter's and that I'm not coming from a
[1:39:10] place of of darkness. I I would like to
[1:39:13] think I'm coming from a place of light.
[1:39:15] >> Mhm.
[1:39:16] >> And I've always wanted to do this. I've
[1:39:19] always been the person that I am today
[1:39:21] since I was a small boy.
[1:39:24] and losing my family, losing my children
[1:39:30] brought me back to the mountains. My
[1:39:32] life sort of came full circle back to
[1:39:36] pushing myself on skis and going uphill.
[1:39:39] And that that came through
[1:39:42] the physical effort of of enduring what
[1:39:44] it takes to go up, bringing like
[1:39:48] breaking me down to a more raw self
[1:39:51] where I was able to connect with them in
[1:39:54] a better way. And I was able to break
[1:39:57] down my own barriers and choose to sort
[1:40:00] of package them up and take them with
[1:40:02] me. And I I think
[1:40:06] I have this belief that
[1:40:10] when you lose someone, you're draped in
[1:40:14] this incredible grief. And I've often
[1:40:17] said that it feels like a big heavy wet
[1:40:19] blanket that you put on yourself.
[1:40:22] And you don't ever get rid of it. You
[1:40:25] don't you it doesn't go away. It's not
[1:40:28] something you move past or move on from
[1:40:30] or get over. Those are these are words
[1:40:32] that people are are you over it yet? Are
[1:40:35] >> are you good now? And you learn to to
[1:40:38] package that up and to take it with you.
[1:40:41] And
[1:40:42] I have this this visual sense of that
[1:40:46] and and I've enacted it in the mountains
[1:40:48] by like packing that up into my backpack
[1:40:51] and putting the backpack on my shoulders
[1:40:53] and walking up the sort of cyphas hill
[1:40:57] rolling the rock up the mountain and
[1:40:59] going through the suffering
[1:41:01] >> which
[1:41:03] has helped me
[1:41:06] myself ego
[1:41:09] get through to the other side and and
[1:41:12] put one foot in front of another and do
[1:41:14] my best. And it is all those things.
[1:41:17] It's a it there is selfishness in it.
[1:41:20] There's selflessness in it. There's ego
[1:41:22] in it. And there's a lot of things that
[1:41:24] I'm doing that aren't for the ego. I I
[1:41:27] learned from EART about the ego and that
[1:41:30] it's something we all have no matter
[1:41:32] what. And if you can take it and put it
[1:41:34] in a box and I sort of visualize it
[1:41:36] right here on my shoulder
[1:41:38] and if I know that that's part of what's
[1:41:42] going on in myself, then I can
[1:41:44] understand, okay, how do I make sure I
[1:41:46] don't let it drive where we're going.
[1:41:49] But
[1:41:50] >> I've just lived this life that I'm
[1:41:51] living to I'm just doing my best along
[1:41:54] the way. And
[1:41:57] uh I hope that I can sort of encapsulate
[1:42:01] some of the why for for some people of
[1:42:03] how they can move forward after they had
[1:42:06] a hard day at the office or they lost
[1:42:08] their their cat or they lost their
[1:42:11] children in an accident. And we're all
[1:42:15] going to lose things. And you said it
[1:42:17] earlier and I I think it's worth
[1:42:19] bringing up again. Nobody gets out
[1:42:20] alive. That's a a Jim Morrison
[1:42:24] comment. No one here gets out alive. And
[1:42:26] I've I've known that my whole life. I've
[1:42:31] from a young age embodied that spirit.
[1:42:34] And I think I feel like
[1:42:39] we're in this magnificent place called
[1:42:42] planet Earth. And it's the it's the best
[1:42:44] it's ever going to be today. It's not
[1:42:47] it's not going to get better tomorrow.
[1:42:50] We're we're hurting our planet. We're
[1:42:53] degrading our world. I don't think our
[1:42:56] society is going towards better as a
[1:42:59] collective being. I I think uh we should
[1:43:03] relish where we are and appreciate where
[1:43:06] we are and do our best to celebrate the
[1:43:09] good things in life.
[1:43:12] >> The day that you summited,
[1:43:15] it was just a gorgeous day. I mean, the
[1:43:17] sky was completely blue.
[1:43:20] At one point, I don't know if you were
[1:43:22] at camp 3, you're like, "Oh, it's it's
[1:43:25] going to go down to like 30 below
[1:43:27] tonight." So, it's cold. But then, like,
[1:43:32] is it that cold during the day? Like,
[1:43:33] when the sun is shining, you guys have
[1:43:35] your gloves off. Like, it strikes me as
[1:43:37] fairly temperate. I don't know if that's
[1:43:39] really what it is, but maybe like
[1:43:42] relatively. Um, but the point being like
[1:43:45] it was this amazing day and it was
[1:43:46] literally the last day before your
[1:43:48] permit was gonna expire, right? And
[1:43:50] Jimmy's like, "Why is it always this
[1:43:52] way?" Like you're you you you start this
[1:43:54] in August and you're in midocctober,
[1:43:57] right? By the by the time you're you're
[1:43:59] like summiting the amount of time that
[1:44:01] you guys are up there and waiting for
[1:44:03] that weather window. But the ski
[1:44:05] conditions were absolutely horrific. I
[1:44:08] mean, it was just a sheet of ice. So the
[1:44:10] prospect of you skiing down that was
[1:44:13] total insanity. I mean that meant less
[1:44:16] likelihood for there there weren't going
[1:44:17] to be any avalanches because it was
[1:44:20] locked in but it just raised the risk
[1:44:23] element of the ski part to like 11. And
[1:44:27] watching you do that and the way it was
[1:44:28] filmed where you can really see and feel
[1:44:31] the grade and the risk had me on the
[1:44:35] edge of my seat. I mean that's where it
[1:44:37] did feel like this sports documentary.
[1:44:39] Obviously, you succeed in in this
[1:44:42] descent which takes you four hours
[1:44:45] and you emit this cathartic
[1:44:49] like primal scream that almost feels
[1:44:51] like a bookend to the scream when you're
[1:44:54] in your laundry room and you feel like
[1:44:58] you can't go on and you see the pine
[1:45:00] needles. Like there's a thread from that
[1:45:02] moment to this moment that feels like
[1:45:06] something has been completed.
[1:45:09] Yeah. And I I did really complete
[1:45:13] something there. I
[1:45:16] I had a tremendous moment on top of
[1:45:19] Everest with Hillary where I I felt like
[1:45:23] all of the
[1:45:26] the effort that was put into this, all
[1:45:29] of the loss, all of the
[1:45:32] tears that were shed over losing her.
[1:45:34] For me personally,
[1:45:36] in our collective drive to to do this
[1:45:40] thing, we we I felt like she was there
[1:45:43] with me and we saw it through and we
[1:45:45] made it to the top. And then I had to
[1:45:47] turn and
[1:45:49] take off my extra big down layers and
[1:45:51] turn into a skier and stand on the top
[1:45:53] of Everest like I was at home. And the
[1:45:55] sun was shining on me and I felt
[1:45:59] pretty pretty good in that moment. I
[1:46:01] felt like I had about 5 minutes before
[1:46:02] I'd have severe frostbite and I needed
[1:46:04] to get out of there.
[1:46:06] Uh, and I skied down and I was in the
[1:46:10] most present form I could be for those
[1:46:13] four hours.
[1:46:15] You know, laser focused on exactly what
[1:46:17] was right in front of me and nothing
[1:46:19] else. And I wasn't thinking about
[1:46:20] Hillary and I wasn't thinking about
[1:46:23] anything other than exactly what I was
[1:46:25] doing that whole time. and
[1:46:27] >> one tiny slip up and and you're you're
[1:46:30] going down to your death. Like I think
[1:46:32] you say like you know if I'm a half inch
[1:46:34] off in these turns.
[1:46:37] >> Yeah. It was really consequential skiing
[1:46:39] and really really difficult
[1:46:42] conditions. 11 on the condition scale.
[1:46:45] And
[1:46:46] and then I crossed the Bertrand at the
[1:46:49] bottom and I got to safety for the first
[1:46:51] time in that whole descent.
[1:46:54] And I just had this tremendous release
[1:46:57] of
[1:46:59] immediate connection to Hillary,
[1:47:01] immediate like, "We did it. We did it,
[1:47:03] Hillary. We we we pulled it off."
[1:47:08] And [snorts]
[1:47:10] I think what is really interesting for
[1:47:13] me personally is looking back up at the
[1:47:16] mountain the next day and the following
[1:47:19] day from our advanced base camp and
[1:47:21] staring up at this sort of giant
[1:47:25] proverbial
[1:47:27] goal and weight and difficulty that I
[1:47:31] was always trying to overcome. And I was
[1:47:33] always trying to build an arsenal and a
[1:47:37] team and go to battle with this huge
[1:47:41] challenging thing called Mount Everest
[1:47:43] in my case, but everyone has their own
[1:47:45] version of this.
[1:47:48] And I
[1:47:50] thought about and dreamt about and
[1:47:51] visualized all the different things that
[1:47:53] could go wrong and how I could good my
[1:47:56] best day and my worst day. And and then
[1:47:59] at after I achieved it, I skied down and
[1:48:03] I looked up at the mountain and now it's
[1:48:05] just this like I see Hillary on the
[1:48:07] summit. I feel her energy and I feel
[1:48:11] this throughine from the laundry room
[1:48:13] floor to today where I feel a sense of
[1:48:19] peace. I don't think there's a better
[1:48:21] word for it with
[1:48:24] I I did my best to see this this thing
[1:48:28] through and we pulled it off and
[1:48:31] >> it [clears throat] was really really fun
[1:48:33] and really really hard and
[1:48:37] just like some of your career as a
[1:48:40] runner. You you get a lot of
[1:48:41] satisfaction out of making it across to
[1:48:44] your goal and getting to the finish
[1:48:46] line. But doing that with
[1:48:49] Hillary and celebrating her life and
[1:48:52] seeing her larger than life on the
[1:48:55] screen and
[1:48:57] watching her son Quinn see her for the
[1:48:59] first time on the screen and it breaking
[1:49:01] him down to just a incredibly raw and
[1:49:05] emotional state of just sobbing for a
[1:49:09] period of many many minutes after he
[1:49:11] watched the movie for the first time and
[1:49:13] then talking to him about it afterwards.
[1:49:16] and
[1:49:17] celebrating who she was and having it be
[1:49:20] something that, you know, it it hurt him
[1:49:22] so much because it was so real. And her
[1:49:26] just her voice for him brought him back
[1:49:29] to who
[1:49:31] she was and that she's not here anymore.
[1:49:34] And I think we
[1:49:36] are at a challenge of whether when we
[1:49:38] lose someone, whether we ignore those
[1:49:41] feelings and suppress them and push them
[1:49:43] away so that we can get to breakfast and
[1:49:46] move through our day or whether we take
[1:49:48] them with us and celebrate who they are.
[1:49:51] And
[1:49:52] I think that Quinn's starting to find a
[1:49:55] balance through that on his own. And I
[1:49:58] think there's some positives that the
[1:50:00] film will help him do that.
[1:50:04] And the other boy, Graden.
[1:50:06] >> Graden. Graden's a senior in high
[1:50:09] school. He's doing really well. Uh he's
[1:50:12] in Costa Rica right now at surf camp
[1:50:15] mixing school with surfing and uh put in
[1:50:19] a lot of hard work in the first three
[1:50:20] years of high school and applied to
[1:50:22] school already. And hopefully he's going
[1:50:24] to he's very very studious and excited
[1:50:28] about what's in front of him. And both
[1:50:30] of the boys are doing well and I'm
[1:50:31] really proud of them. and [snorts] they
[1:50:34] both live with their father full-time
[1:50:35] when they're not in school. And uh
[1:50:39] I think they have a tremendous community
[1:50:41] around them trying to support them and
[1:50:44] this
[1:50:45] challenging thing called life with with
[1:50:48] one parent and
[1:50:50] >> one great community and no no Hillary.
[1:50:53] I'm glad to hear that you're familiar
[1:50:56] with a certain kind of high alitude
[1:51:00] existence, but not the one that you're
[1:51:02] currently occupying, which is not a base
[1:51:05] camp. It's like the Venice Film Festival
[1:51:08] and the Telleride Film Festival and the
[1:51:10] Toronto Film Festival. Like you've
[1:51:12] you've traded, you know, one extreme
[1:51:14] experience for another. Uh and now
[1:51:17] you're on the kind of like press circuit
[1:51:20] with the film. like that is disorienting
[1:51:23] in a different way. Like how has this
[1:51:24] experience been for you to be like doing
[1:51:27] this red carpet thing?
[1:51:29] >> It's pretty wild. It's been pretty uh
[1:51:32] unique and different and
[1:51:35] I'm just trying to take it as a you know
[1:51:38] a a [clears throat] new and interesting
[1:51:40] life opportunity and celebrate it where
[1:51:43] where I can. And and then I've also
[1:51:45] found myself back home in Lake Tahoe,
[1:51:49] [clears throat] going to the same old
[1:51:51] cliff to go rock climbing with the same
[1:51:54] old friends I've had for multiple
[1:51:56] decades and turning to them and being
[1:51:58] like, there [clears throat] is nowhere
[1:51:59] else on planet Earth I'd rather be on
[1:52:01] this Saturday than right here, right now
[1:52:03] with you guys. And [snorts] it really
[1:52:06] has helped me uh appreciate those those
[1:52:10] rare moments where you're,
[1:52:13] you know, having dinner with John
[1:52:15] Malovich and talking to him about who
[1:52:17] you are and telling him about this film
[1:52:19] and then seeing him at the film the next
[1:52:22] day and he decided to go and then seeing
[1:52:24] him at a party afterwards and having him
[1:52:26] be so excited about what he got out of
[1:52:29] the film and how powerful the story is
[1:52:32] for him and uh you
[1:52:35] Oh, you're going to be in Toronto. I'll
[1:52:37] I'll see you in London. And it's been
[1:52:40] >> your new buddy.
[1:52:41] >> It's been fun to have those wild
[1:52:43] >> those interactions. Uh,
[1:52:47] and it's also, you know, really not lost
[1:52:50] on me that I'm
[1:52:53] very fortunate and very proud of and
[1:52:57] appreciative of this community that's
[1:53:00] put their arms around me the moment my
[1:53:02] wife and children crashed and has done
[1:53:06] so much to to help me through this this
[1:53:09] challenge we call life.
[1:53:13] I'm fascinated by this friendship that
[1:53:15] you have with Oprah. How did this start?
[1:53:18] I mean, you were She threw like a like a
[1:53:22] big thing for you and Tellide at her.
[1:53:24] Does she have a house there? Like at her
[1:53:25] house? You did her podcast. But from
[1:53:28] what I understand, there's like a real
[1:53:29] friendship here. Like she is very drawn
[1:53:32] to you. Like how did that start? What is
[1:53:34] that about? Like I want to know
[1:53:36] everything about this. [laughter]
[1:53:38] >> Well, whatever you're comfortable
[1:53:40] sharing. I mean, I'm I'm very
[1:53:43] comfortable with with the whole thing.
[1:53:45] She's just an incredible person and just
[1:53:48] has a a way about her of of lifting the
[1:53:53] room up, lifting the world up, lifting
[1:53:56] humanity up, and she's got a tremendous
[1:53:58] amount of energy and just her aura is it
[1:54:03] spectacular to be around. And I I met
[1:54:07] her essentially at doing her podcast. I
[1:54:11] was asked to be on her podcast. I was at
[1:54:14] the same time I was going to be in Santa
[1:54:16] Barbara speaking at an event. And they
[1:54:19] asked me if I would do it on a Tuesday
[1:54:20] because they knew I was speaking on a
[1:54:22] Wednesday. And I said, "No, I can't do
[1:54:23] it." And the reason I said no is because
[1:54:25] I wanted to wa have her watch me tell my
[1:54:28] story and then I would go to her podcast
[1:54:31] afterwards. and
[1:54:34] she leapt out of her chair and I pointed
[1:54:37] at her and I said, "I'll see you
[1:54:38] tomorrow." And I went to her house the
[1:54:40] next day and did this podcast and she
[1:54:43] just she's just a very real and special
[1:54:47] woman who I connected with and I love
[1:54:51] talking to and love sharing stories with
[1:54:53] and and we both had homes in Tellide. So
[1:54:57] she told me when she was coming to
[1:54:58] Tellide and we had dinner and
[1:55:01] uh you know just sitting at a table with
[1:55:04] Oprah Winfrey sharing a meal was is one
[1:55:07] of the true joys of my lifetime and
[1:55:10] hearing [snorts] her stories about how
[1:55:12] what she did in her business and how she
[1:55:15] built her business and
[1:55:17] what what just how she works in her mind
[1:55:20] is is is truly
[1:55:23] magnificent. And I think she just spends
[1:55:26] every day trying to figure out how she
[1:55:28] can make the world a better place, one
[1:55:31] little incremental
[1:55:33] >> step at a time. And she lifts a few
[1:55:35] people up and those people lift more
[1:55:37] people up. And I think she's just made a
[1:55:40] tremendous impact on on humanity. And to
[1:55:43] be around it, I for me it's just it's a
[1:55:46] gift.
[1:55:47] >> It's pretty cool. like she
[1:55:50] has gone out of her way like she's she's
[1:55:53] enamored with you like for you know like
[1:55:55] this is just such an interesting thing
[1:55:57] you know she's gone out of her way to
[1:55:58] like really celebrate you and celebrate
[1:56:00] this film and what it is I think she she
[1:56:03] understands what it is that you're
[1:56:05] trying to communicate
[1:56:07] um and if you had to put that in your
[1:56:09] own words how would you articulate that
[1:56:12] >> what I'm trying to communicate
[1:56:14] >> yeah like what she like how she's
[1:56:16] translating
[1:56:18] her understanding of you and the movie
[1:56:22] into something that is helpful and of
[1:56:24] service to her audience because that's
[1:56:26] what she's a master at. Like she can
[1:56:28] take a story and then she can identify
[1:56:31] that kernel of truth or that important
[1:56:34] piece and she knows exactly what to say
[1:56:36] to her audience to make it impactful in
[1:56:38] a positive way for them. when I call
[1:56:41] her, she answers the phone like on the
[1:56:44] first ring and she's she's like, "I was
[1:56:46] just about to call you." It's it's one
[1:56:49] of those sort of
[1:56:50] >> connections that's feels divine in the
[1:56:53] universe.
[1:56:54] And I think
[1:56:59] she has a way of seeing the emotional
[1:57:01] arc of my life and my story and saying,
[1:57:04] "This is important and this is something
[1:57:07] you need to figure out how to share."
[1:57:10] And she has a unique way of encouraging
[1:57:13] me to do it. Certainly, as someone who I
[1:57:17] respect and if if Oprah tells me to do
[1:57:20] something, I'm going to do it. She's
[1:57:23] helped me sort of see the the path of
[1:57:25] how I can share that story and and tell
[1:57:29] it and and help
[1:57:32] people that have suffered loss or grief
[1:57:34] or
[1:57:37] are going through something really hard
[1:57:38] in their life and and see a way to to
[1:57:41] get through it and get to the other side
[1:57:44] of it. And I owe a tremendous amount of
[1:57:47] gratitude for her. And it's it's
[1:57:49] certainly, as you said, not just with
[1:57:51] me. That's what what she seems to do in
[1:57:53] her day-to-day existence. I think she
[1:57:55] can just walk into a room and she just
[1:57:59] finds that energy. She wants to sort of
[1:58:01] find the kernel and
[1:58:03] >> uplift it. And um she's going to help me
[1:58:07] by pushing me to tell my whole story and
[1:58:10] and write a book. And [snorts] uh I
[1:58:13] really appreciate her for that.
[1:58:15] >> It's very cool.
[1:58:17] There must be moments where, for
[1:58:19] example, you're, you know, at one of
[1:58:20] these film festivals
[1:58:23] seeing yourself on screen or you're, you
[1:58:25] know, hanging out with John Malovich or
[1:58:28] whatever and thinking like, how is this
[1:58:29] my life? Like there's a surreal
[1:58:32] aspect to it, but also
[1:58:36] this bittersweetness because of all of
[1:58:39] these things that happened to create
[1:58:42] these situations and the choices that
[1:58:44] you made to be able to be in this
[1:58:47] position. Like what is the interior
[1:58:49] experience of like celebrating the fact
[1:58:51] that like you've done these great things
[1:58:53] and you're carrying this powerful
[1:58:54] message that's helpful to other people.
[1:58:56] And now there's this amazing cinematic
[1:59:00] event happening around you while also
[1:59:03] recognizing that in many ways it's a
[1:59:06] function of the of of this tremendous
[1:59:10] loss that you've have endured.
[1:59:13] two edges of that that I think about.
[1:59:17] Um,
[1:59:19] I guess I'll put the bad one first and
[1:59:22] then we'll end with Oprah. You know,
[1:59:24] going to these festivals and and seeing
[1:59:26] the film for the first time and and
[1:59:28] having this tremendous reception from a
[1:59:30] crowd and so many people congratulating
[1:59:33] you, congratulations.
[1:59:36] And
[1:59:37] it's there's part of me that in a really
[1:59:42] tough way
[1:59:44] wants to say congratulations on losing
[1:59:47] Wyatt and Hannah and not having them
[1:59:48] here for all these years.
[1:59:51] Congratulations on all the things that I
[1:59:54] missed out on because
[1:59:56] they passed away. And it's hard for me.
[2:00:00] And then there's another side of it that
[2:00:02] is just really wonderful and really
[2:00:06] positive. And the reason I
[2:00:09] mentioned Oprah is
[2:00:12] I had a really tough weekend. The the
[2:00:14] weekend that I showed the film to Quinn
[2:00:17] and Graden and I came back from that and
[2:00:21] I thought a lot about where I was at in
[2:00:24] life and what I had been through. and uh
[2:00:29] I had been dating a amazing woman and I
[2:00:33] broke up with her for other extenduating
[2:00:36] circumstances and I was just in a really
[2:00:39] tough place on Monday morning and Oprah
[2:00:42] called me and she wanted to ask me to do
[2:00:45] something and she said she realized the
[2:00:48] situation I was in and she said I'm not
[2:00:50] going to ask you to do it and I was like
[2:00:52] look I'll do absolutely anything for you
[2:00:54] tell me what it is And uh through the
[2:00:58] course of our conversation, she she read
[2:01:02] something to me and she told me
[2:01:04] something that I I stood outside. I was
[2:01:07] in the Tetons in Jackson Hole and I
[2:01:10] looked up at the Tetons and I'm standing
[2:01:12] on this little deck and Oprah Winfreyy's
[2:01:16] in her just immaculate pros is is
[2:01:19] talking to me and I'm
[2:01:23] visually climbing like my hands are on
[2:01:26] the rock of the Tetons and I'm infused
[2:01:30] with Hillary's energy like I feel like
[2:01:32] I'm completely connected to her and
[2:01:36] she's not gone and she's not
[2:01:40] unaware of where we are or what we're
[2:01:43] doing. She's right here and she's with
[2:01:45] me and I'm carrying her through this
[2:01:48] journey, through the highs and lows of
[2:01:50] this whole
[2:01:52] circuit that we're on. And it was just a
[2:01:55] really tremendous moment that I tried to
[2:01:57] say, "Okay, stop.
[2:02:00] put this in the memory bank and make
[2:02:02] sure you can access it later and take
[2:02:04] note of this magical moment you're in,
[2:02:07] which I've had the opportunity to do a
[2:02:09] bunch of times recently. And
[2:02:12] I'm just I feel really fortunate for
[2:02:14] being in this position.
[2:02:17] With that
[2:02:19] awareness
[2:02:21] and in closing here,
[2:02:24] what is the message that the distilled
[2:02:27] crystallized message that you want to
[2:02:29] communicate to
[2:02:32] the person who is watching or listening
[2:02:34] to this who is in the midst of grief and
[2:02:38] loss and trying to make sense of how to
[2:02:40] move forward.
[2:02:44] I wrote this for for Oprah. She asked me
[2:02:47] to to write something down that she
[2:02:49] could give her guests at this parties
[2:02:51] that she threw for me. And I started
[2:02:54] with this idea of that for a really long
[2:02:59] time in my life, I've thought that
[2:03:02] losing someone meant you had to move on
[2:03:04] from them and you had to move forward
[2:03:06] without them. And that I've just come
[2:03:09] back to a place that I don't believe
[2:03:11] that anymore.
[2:03:14] I believe we can lose someone and decide
[2:03:18] to move forward with them. And
[2:03:22] if you just lost someone or something
[2:03:25] that's so near and dear to you, it's
[2:03:27] really hard to visualize that today. But
[2:03:29] if you just take the time to day by day
[2:03:33] put one foot in front of another,
[2:03:37] we get to a place where not talking
[2:03:40] about my children is not what I want to
[2:03:42] do. I want to talk about them. I want to
[2:03:44] bring them up and I want to carry them
[2:03:46] forward with me. And I want to celebrate
[2:03:48] them here and every day into the future.
[2:03:51] And I want to do the same with Katie and
[2:03:53] Hillary and all the other people I've
[2:03:55] lost. And
[2:03:57] I feel like their energy is what has
[2:04:01] helped me get to the top of the mountain
[2:04:04] and with and helped me be my best and
[2:04:07] helped me make the
[2:04:09] ultimate ski run for me on planet earth
[2:04:13] and in the best form that I could make
[2:04:15] it in. And I don't think I could have
[2:04:17] done it without them. And that energy
[2:04:20] that they are fueling me with has helped
[2:04:24] me be my best self. And I guess I'd like
[2:04:27] to say to the person who's lost
[2:04:29] something like
[2:04:32] accept that today is hard and celebrate
[2:04:36] the small wins that you have of just
[2:04:38] getting through today. And
[2:04:41] sometimes that's just taking a moment to
[2:04:43] drink a glass of water and look out the
[2:04:46] window and
[2:04:48] keep going. And eventually you can
[2:04:51] package that
[2:04:53] person or that thing up and carry it
[2:04:56] with you and
[2:04:59] take them to the seashore and have them
[2:05:02] look out through your eyes at that
[2:05:04] horizon instead of only feeling like
[2:05:07] they need to come be the ones to save
[2:05:09] you. They can actually come with you and
[2:05:13] they can watch the sunset with you.
[2:05:16] >> Thanks for coming and sharing with me
[2:05:18] today.
[2:05:19] Thanks for having me. It's a really
[2:05:21] powerful message.
[2:05:23] It's a beautiful film. It's a
[2:05:25] confronting film.
[2:05:27] There's going to be a lot of cultural
[2:05:29] conversations around the film. Uh so I'm
[2:05:33] so glad to be able to sit with you and
[2:05:36] get your perspective upfront
[2:05:39] before all those conversations kick off.
[2:05:42] And I think that you are, as I said at
[2:05:44] the outset and throughout this
[2:05:46] conversation, are in this really
[2:05:48] powerful position to be of service to
[2:05:52] people who are enduring hardship right
[2:05:55] now. I think Oprah saw that in you, and
[2:05:59] I would encourage you to stand up and
[2:06:01] take the reigns of that. Uh I think it's
[2:06:03] a real purposeful mission. It's a
[2:06:06] beautiful one.
[2:06:07] >> I I appreciate it. I look forward to it
[2:06:09] and I'll I'll do my best uh one day at a
[2:06:12] time to get through this journey of
[2:06:15] putting this big film out into the world
[2:06:18] and uh
[2:06:20] then taking all the packaging it all up
[2:06:23] and figuring out how to retell my story
[2:06:25] in a way that hopefully will will help
[2:06:28] those people that have been through
[2:06:29] hardship and loss. And the film is just
[2:06:32] another full spectrum, you know, kind of
[2:06:36] experience, another episode in your in
[2:06:38] your like, you know, wildlife, man. It's
[2:06:40] crazy.
[2:06:41] >> Yeah. [laughter]
[2:06:43] Um, and there will probably be many
[2:06:44] more. Uh, so come back and share with me
[2:06:48] uh what you learned along the way, my
[2:06:50] friend. I really appreciate your
[2:06:51] openness and the time you took to
[2:06:55] um share with me from the heart.
[2:06:57] >> I appreciate it. [music] Thank you for
[2:06:59] having me. Right on, Jim. Thanks. Peace.