Transcript
[0:01] It's a big countdown.
[0:06] >> [music]
[0:07] >> I guess we don't really need to do the
[0:08] countdown, actually.
[0:10] >> [music]
[0:15] [music]
[0:21] [music]
[0:27] [music]
[0:37] >> All right. Welcome everybody to
[0:40] Psychedelics Today. My name is Kyle
[0:42] Buller, one of the co-founders here at
[0:43] Psychedelics Today. And welcome by
[0:46] Jonathan Shecter. Jonathan, welcome to
[0:48] the show. Really excited to have you
[0:49] here.
[0:51] >> Yeah, thanks for having me, Kyle.
[0:53] >> Yeah, I feel like it's been a long time
[0:55] coming. I've been on your podcast a few
[0:57] times, so I'm glad we were able to get
[0:59] you over here as well.
[1:01] >> Yeah, I appreciate it.
[1:02] >> Yeah.
[1:03] Jonathan, I know you're a Somatic
[1:04] Experiencing Practitioner. You just got
[1:07] your certification in Holotropic
[1:09] Breathwork. Congrats on just finishing
[1:11] up that training.
[1:12] Um,
[1:13] introduce yourself. Who are you? Who's
[1:15] Jonathan?
[1:16] >> Yeah, so like you mentioned, uh, Somatic
[1:19] Experiencing Practitioner and, uh,
[1:21] Breathwork Facilitator. I've been
[1:23] practicing Breathwork and getting
[1:25] certified in various modalities over the
[1:28] last 7 years. And, uh, Holotropic is
[1:32] kind of the crown jewel to me, uh, to to
[1:35] finish that off. But, yeah, I do a lot
[1:37] of work with, um, clients, uh, doing
[1:40] Somatic Integration, combining the
[1:42] Somatic Experiencing and Transpersonal
[1:44] Psychology, as well as Breathwork to
[1:48] support them in their spiritual
[1:50] evolution. And as you mentioned, I also
[1:53] have a podcast called The Vital Points,
[1:56] um, where we talk about all things
[1:57] integration,
[1:59] um, from breath work to psychedelics and
[2:01] kind of everything everything in
[2:02] between.
[2:03] >> Yeah, and for those listening,
[2:05] definitely check that out. You've had
[2:06] some really great conversations and and
[2:08] guests on.
[2:09] >> Yeah, lately, uh, you know, a couple
[2:11] there's definitely been some
[2:12] cross-pollination, you know, I I found
[2:14] Pierre Bouchard through you and
[2:17] psychedelics today. So, he's been on the
[2:18] podcast a few times and um, just
[2:21] wonderful to be existing in the space
[2:23] here.
[2:24] >> Yeah, yeah.
[2:26] Can I Let's do some like little
[2:28] backtracking and explore. How did you
[2:30] get involved in, you know, non-ordinary
[2:32] experiences, psychedelics, and and
[2:35] breath work? What's what's your path
[2:36] been?
[2:37] >> Uh, it was definitely recreational at
[2:39] first. Like, I had a lot of recreational
[2:42] type experiences through, like, high
[2:45] school and kind of after that. I was
[2:47] involved in the rave scene in LA in my
[2:50] early 20s. And then
[2:54] had this kind of spiritual awakening
[2:56] where I discovered Buddhism in a very,
[2:58] like, transpersonal way. Um, and that
[3:01] led me to um,
[3:04] sort of take a right turn in my own
[3:06] career and my life. I went from being
[3:09] like a semi-professional DJ and way well
[3:12] on the track to going professional to
[3:16] living in Tibet, um, in a monastery for
[3:19] about a year.
[3:21] And when I came back to the states,
[3:25] um,
[3:27] I got married and then my, uh, my wife
[3:32] at the time
[3:33] uh, started to have a lot of
[3:35] childhood trauma that started to emerge.
[3:39] And, um,
[3:40] which kind of culminated in her
[3:44] attempting suicide.
[3:45] >> Mhm.
[3:46] >> And I had no idea how to deal with not
[3:50] only the situation and and supporting
[3:54] her, but I really didn't understand how
[3:57] to
[3:58] um process or deal with my own feelings
[4:01] and emotions around what had happened as
[4:03] well.
[4:04] And so, kind of in secret cuz she was
[4:07] not really supportive of it, um I
[4:09] started working with mushrooms a couple
[4:10] of times a year, did the very, you know,
[4:13] sort of clichéd like 5 g in the dark um
[4:16] a few times because I didn't really have
[4:18] the context for
[4:20] working with the medicines
[4:22] therapeutically coming from a more
[4:24] recreational background.
[4:26] But when that marriage kind of fell
[4:29] apart, um
[4:31] you know, after some after a lot of
[4:33] trying and therapy and and also some of
[4:36] the
[4:37] experiences that I was having um with
[4:39] psilocybin,
[4:41] um I really made an effort to say, I
[4:45] want to I want to work with this more
[4:46] therapeutically. I want to figure out
[4:49] how to
[4:51] um have these experiences like actually
[4:53] mean something and and kind of change my
[4:56] life. And so, I dropped into a lot more
[5:00] ceremonial spaces, started to hear this
[5:02] word integration thrown around a lot.
[5:06] Didn't really understand it at first. Um
[5:09] and then it was breathwork, you know,
[5:12] starting to do breathwork as integration
[5:14] for those experiences,
[5:16] um that really
[5:18] led me deeper into working intentionally
[5:22] with integration.
[5:24] >> Yeah. What was your entry point into
[5:26] breathwork? Was it like working with
[5:28] holotropic breathwork right away or were
[5:30] you exploring some other breathwork
[5:32] practices?
[5:33] >> Initially, it was Wim Hof, which I think
[5:35] is definitely like a gateway drug uh for
[5:38] breathwork for a lot of people, um
[5:40] mostly because of the cold plunging
[5:42] actually at first. Like I wasn't really
[5:43] even focused on breathwork. It was more
[5:46] so There was one day I remember
[5:49] seeing like I saw something on
[5:51] Instagram, I was listening to a podcast,
[5:55] and I read it all in one day where they
[5:57] were talking about doing ice baths. And
[6:00] at the time I was going through this
[6:01] really messy divorce, and the message
[6:03] that I had seen in all three of these
[6:05] different mediums was um doing ice baths
[6:09] will help you
[6:11] um do hard things because if you are
[6:13] doing something that's challenging
[6:16] um that you have a choice over, it'll
[6:18] help you when you don't have a choice
[6:20] about doing challenging things. And at
[6:22] the time I was like, "Well, I feel
[6:24] really challenged in my life right now.
[6:26] So, if this is going to help me deal
[6:27] with that, I'm all for it." And
[6:30] then on the side of it was like this
[6:32] breathwork thing.
[6:33] And ironically, breathwork has sort of
[6:36] been around me uh for most of my life.
[6:39] My dad um has been practicing like
[6:42] rebirthing breathwork, Leonard Orr's um
[6:45] practice for for most of my life. And
[6:47] even when I was a teenager and taking a
[6:50] lot of acid and getting into trouble, he
[6:52] tried to sit me down and say
[6:54] "Hey, like I know that you think this is
[6:56] the answer, but you can get a lot higher
[6:59] doing breathwork and meditation."
[7:01] And when I was 16, I didn't I I couldn't
[7:04] hear that, you know, I just rolled my
[7:06] eyes and was like, "You don't know what
[7:08] you're talking about, old man." And um
[7:11] you know, I I just couldn't believe
[7:13] that, you know, breathwork would be as
[7:16] powerful as LSD. Um but, you know, here
[7:19] I am now, right? So, I started I started
[7:22] practicing breathwork just, you know, at
[7:24] first like doing YouTube videos and just
[7:27] trying to tinker around with things and
[7:30] quickly discovered how deep it was in in
[7:33] reaching non-ordinary states through
[7:34] just the breath. And that really led me
[7:37] down a path of exploring different
[7:39] modalities, um um, different teachers,
[7:42] and and just trying to find what worked
[7:44] for me. The first one that that really
[7:46] did was neurodynamic breathwork, which
[7:48] developed [clears throat] by Michael
[7:49] Stone. He was a long-time holotropic
[7:51] breathwork facilitator and kind of made
[7:54] a version of it that was a little bit
[7:56] more accessible
[7:58] uh for people,
[8:00] but still based a lot on the principles
[8:02] and the the practices of holotropic
[8:05] breathwork of of Stan Grof's work. So,
[8:07] that that kind of really kickstarted me
[8:09] on my own path.
[8:11] >> Yeah, yeah. Thanks for sharing all that.
[8:13] When you were talking about like, uh, I
[8:15] guess eating those 5 g in silent
[8:18] darkness, and you said it wasn't
[8:19] necessarily therapeutic, like did you
[8:22] feel like there was any sort of like
[8:23] benefit there, or like you kind of more
[8:26] categorize that as like recreational, so
[8:29] it didn't sound like, you know, wasn't a
[8:30] very internal journey where you were
[8:32] doing work, or what what was going on
[8:34] there for you?
[8:35] >> Yeah, it was definitely therapeutic in
[8:38] its own way. I just didn't have any
[8:40] framework or any like guidelines for
[8:43] what I was doing, right? Like I didn't I
[8:46] didn't understand that there were
[8:48] intentional practices that one could do
[8:52] around that work. So, for me it was like
[8:55] journaling afterwards, you know, or
[8:58] trying to process the the experience all
[9:02] on my own without, you know, any sort of
[9:04] guide or coach or, you know, therapist.
[9:07] Um, whereas now, you know, I understand
[9:10] like the benefit of doing preparation
[9:13] and and really being intentional about,
[9:15] you know, um, taking care of myself
[9:17] before I go into those experiences, and
[9:19] then in the aftermath, definitely,
[9:21] right? So, yeah, it was it was more just
[9:24] like
[9:25] me knowing about Terence McKenna and
[9:28] saying, "Okay, this is what you're
[9:29] supposed to do if you want to have a
[9:31] spiritual experience
[9:33] um or a therapeutic experience around
[9:34] this." Not knowing that there were um,
[9:37] other,
[9:38] you know, more specific frameworks that
[9:40] one could apply.
[9:42] >> Yeah, yeah. And so when you heard about
[9:44] like breathwork being like really
[9:46] powerful and psychedelic, can you
[9:48] remember like what your first breathwork
[9:50] experience was that felt really
[9:52] psychedelic that really kind of like
[9:54] turned you on to and be like, "Oh well,
[9:55] no, there's there's something here."
[9:57] >> Yeah, yeah, I remember cuz I I had been
[10:00] I had sat in a few ayahuasca ceremonies
[10:03] at this point and I remember the first
[10:06] time kind of dropping into a really deep
[10:10] non-ordinary state that
[10:13] you know, a lot of a lot of people that
[10:14] I work with kind of call it the void.
[10:17] Um,
[10:18] sort of like this void state where
[10:19] you're outside of space and time
[10:22] and
[10:23] just feeling like I was looking around
[10:25] in the space going, "Oh, this is really
[10:27] familiar to me."
[10:29] >> Mhm.
[10:29] >> I've I've I've been here before but
[10:31] really being really astounded that I
[10:35] would I reached it strictly through
[10:37] breathing whereas every other time that
[10:39] I had experienced this, you know, there
[10:41] had been a major psychedelic
[10:44] involved.
[10:45] And so quickly
[10:47] I started to replicate that and kind of
[10:49] practice it and put it to music. You
[10:52] know, I was I was playing music that you
[10:54] know, I was hearing in ceremonies.
[10:57] Just like a lot of you know, sort of
[10:59] budding psychonauts, you know, I my
[11:02] musical choices were changing and I was
[11:04] listening to a lot of medicine music and
[11:07] so started to kind of program the
[11:10] breathwork and the music to align with
[11:13] each other all on my own not knowing at
[11:16] first that there were you know, full
[11:18] kind of modalities like holotropic
[11:20] breathwork where that arc is you know,
[11:23] very similar, right? The music is
[11:25] following the trajectory of this
[11:27] non-ordinary
[11:28] consciousness experience. And so when I
[11:31] you know, like I said when I first
[11:32] discovered
[11:34] Michael and and neurodynamic breath work
[11:37] the
[11:39] it was actually really difficult to
[11:41] focus on during that first breath work
[11:44] experience because everything that I was
[11:46] experiencing
[11:48] was what was in my head that I had been
[11:51] trying to figure out. How do I do this?
[11:53] How do I get this from a single person's
[11:56] experience to something that I could
[11:58] support other people with or
[12:01] share with them? How could I scale this
[12:04] out? And then here I was in this
[12:06] container where it was all like I was
[12:09] the participant and it was such a
[12:11] revelation to me. So like literally
[12:13] right after I did that first experience
[12:15] with him I emailed him and said this was
[12:19] amazing. This is exactly what I'm
[12:20] looking for and he said oh, that's
[12:22] really cool. We're just starting our
[12:24] first facilitator cohort in a few months
[12:28] and I signed up pretty much on the spot.
[12:35] >> Amazing. You've been [clears throat]
[12:35] with it ever since. How long ago was
[12:36] that?
[12:38] >> That was
[12:40] I started doing the training with him in
[12:42] 2019. So we kind of graduated during the
[12:45] end of the you know, during COVID.
[12:47] >> Okay. The pandemic.
[12:48] Yeah.
[12:49] >> Yeah and and been doing neurodynamic
[12:52] breath work facilitating that since
[12:54] 2020. Then I went and I started doing
[12:59] some more clinical work and because of
[13:01] that what what felt like I needed to
[13:03] kind of broaden my toolkit.
[13:06] So I did the oxygen advantage program
[13:09] for more functional breathing and to
[13:10] learn more nervous system regulation
[13:12] type techniques and then have been doing
[13:15] holotropic breath work for the last
[13:17] three years as well.
[13:19] >> Yeah. What I guess like it sounds like
[13:21] you have like a lot of training in all
[13:23] sorts of different breath work. Like how
[13:25] do you kind of like conceptualize breath
[13:27] work? So I know that it is an umbrella
[13:29] term and there's like these different
[13:31] practices maybe for different reasons.
[13:33] >> Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. So,
[13:35] especially for the kind of context of
[13:38] psychedelic integration, um I'll start
[13:40] broad and kind of wide and then like
[13:42] move inwards. So, we've been talking
[13:44] about like the more holotropic
[13:47] um states, holotropic being this term
[13:49] coined by Dr. Stan Grof, um meaning
[13:52] moving towards wholeness in the same way
[13:54] that a plant would move towards the
[13:56] light, um that there's this part of our
[13:59] psyche that orientates towards
[14:01] wholeness,
[14:02] um and that that movement can be
[14:05] accelerated
[14:06] um and supported during
[14:09] um psychedelic or non-ordinary um states
[14:11] of consciousness, whether that be
[14:13] breathwork, uh medicine work, um you
[14:16] know, Kundalini yoga, meditation, all
[14:18] there's all different types of um these
[14:20] experiences. So, the breathwork can be
[14:24] the vehicle for the the experience in
[14:27] and of itself, right? Um just like the
[14:30] dream shadow breathwork that you
[14:31] practice, um which is in that same kind
[14:34] of uh Grofian lineage, um we're
[14:37] breathing in a way that's inducing a uh
[14:39] reliable non-ordinary uh state
[14:42] experience.
[14:43] And then the the second kind of category
[14:46] that I would
[14:47] bucket breathwork in is using the breath
[14:50] to affect the nervous system.
[14:52] >> Mhm.
[14:53] >> Um to re- to regulate both into the, you
[14:56] know, parasympathetic into that rest and
[14:59] and uh and digest kind of state, or
[15:02] sometimes into, you know, more active um
[15:05] you know, moving more towards the
[15:07] sympathetic um for resilience, for
[15:11] building your capacity to to work in
[15:14] those states. And I think that this is
[15:16] really important for psychedelic work
[15:18] because psychedelic work is inherently
[15:21] dysregulating. Like, it's going to do
[15:23] things to your nervous system,
[15:26] um especially when big emotions come up
[15:28] or, you know, big energy shifts um that
[15:31] can feel overwhelming, that can feel,
[15:34] you know, kind of scary or, you know, um
[15:37] challenging to work with. So, having
[15:40] tools to help to regulate yourself and
[15:43] stay grounded in those uh experiences
[15:48] um and and training your nervous system
[15:49] to be able to to to work with those
[15:52] experiences, I think is is super
[15:53] valuable for people that are doing
[15:56] psychedelic work.
[15:57] And then to like
[15:59] narrow it down even more, I would say
[16:01] that there's breathwork for awareness
[16:04] itself. Right? So, being able to just
[16:07] simply be with whatever material is
[16:11] coming up.
[16:13] Um to to be able to
[16:16] uh
[16:16] be with the insights and that
[16:19] expansiveness that can happen in a
[16:21] psychedelic state, but also to be able
[16:23] to just simply sit with maybe those
[16:26] powerful emotions,
[16:28] um
[16:28] the material that may have been
[16:30] repressed or
[16:31] um unknown before the the the the
[16:34] journey itself, and just to be able to
[16:37] like simply be and observe that. So,
[16:39] that's tied in with somatic awareness,
[16:42] um with meditation, but, you know, there
[16:44] there are breathwork practices around
[16:46] that and arguably, one would say
[16:48] meditation is a type of breathwork.
[16:51] >> Right? Yeah, I think it's you know, I
[16:52] think a lot of meditation does come down
[16:54] to like becoming aware of the breath,
[16:56] right? And just like kind of slowing
[16:57] down and
[16:59] Oh, there it is.
[17:01] >> Yeah.
[17:02] Exactly.
[17:03] >> Yeah.
[17:03] >> Yeah, so so breathwork, you know, I
[17:06] think is ap- applicable across a pretty
[17:08] wide spectrum
[17:10] of um use cases, especially for for
[17:13] psychedelic work.
[17:14] >> Yeah. And I think I don't know. I guess
[17:17] we're probably both pretty biased here,
[17:18] but like it does seem like a really
[17:21] important tool kit to have for the
[17:23] preparation, for navigation, and for
[17:25] like integration.
[17:27] Um I'm curious like when you talked
[17:29] about like using breathwork for
[17:32] integration and like you having some of
[17:34] those like experiences with it, like
[17:37] what made you realize that was like a
[17:39] beneficial tool to start to like use
[17:42] breathwork as like an integrative
[17:43] practice?
[17:45] >> Like us for me, especially back then, it
[17:48] was just realizing that there was only
[17:50] so much time
[17:52] that I could spend in an altered state
[17:55] from a psychedelic. Like I can't I can't
[17:58] take ayahuasca like every day or, you
[18:01] know, mushrooms. Like I I have to be a
[18:03] little bit more um
[18:05] you know, selective with the time that
[18:07] I'm choosing to go into those ceremonial
[18:10] altered spaces. So, to me it felt like
[18:14] really really great to just have more
[18:16] time in the space. Um to have like more
[18:19] time to explore
[18:22] um or to work on the material that had
[18:24] been coming up. And even for instance,
[18:27] you know, before we hit record, um
[18:30] we were talking about I I just finished
[18:31] a 10-day holotropic breathwork retreat.
[18:35] And about a month ago I had a
[18:38] a medicine experience that was really
[18:40] deep and and, you know, I've been
[18:42] working on integrating some of the stuff
[18:44] that's come up. So, during my first
[18:46] breathwork session,
[18:47] um you know, last week, the material
[18:51] that came up was like pretty much just a
[18:53] direct continuation of not only what had
[18:57] come up in my mushroom journey, but like
[18:59] what I'd been working to integrate, you
[19:01] know, since then. So, it just really
[19:03] gave me another chunk of time to
[19:06] continue to explore that, to deepen it,
[19:09] and to, you know, just continue to let
[19:12] it unfold, right?
[19:14] >> Yeah. And when you say it was like a
[19:15] continuation, you know, I think there's
[19:17] a lot of folks that have heard this like
[19:19] breath work can be psychedelic and
[19:21] there's a lot of kind of like skepticism
[19:23] there. I was one of those folks as well.
[19:26] Um what do you mean by that? Like how
[19:28] can like, you know, breath work help
[19:31] with the continuation of an experience
[19:33] or
[19:35] is it similar to psychedelics?
[19:38] >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you
[19:39] have posted some articles about, you
[19:42] know, the the research being done that
[19:44] that holotropic types of breath work can
[19:46] be,
[19:47] um you know, equivalent to about a, you
[19:49] know, medium dose of psilocybin. Um
[19:52] there's certainly some other research
[19:54] that suggests that similar parts of the
[19:58] brain are being affected, um
[20:00] specifically like the default mode
[20:01] network. Um you know, less activity
[20:04] going into that. So that there's similar
[20:08] um kind of neural pathways being
[20:10] affected um with breath work as um you
[20:14] know, as psychedelics, specifically
[20:17] psilocybin and and LSD. Um
[20:20] so yeah, for me
[20:23] it's interesting because whenever I feel
[20:25] like
[20:27] I've got breath work figured out,
[20:31] there it seems like there's another
[20:32] layer that peels off. Like for instance,
[20:35] there is there is a
[20:37] you know, often often within breath work
[20:40] you know, you know, Grof's kind of motto
[20:43] is make it bigger. And then within
[20:45] holotropic breath work, the they say the
[20:48] healing is happening through
[20:49] intensification of the symptom. So
[20:52] you're you're encouraged when
[20:54] something's coming up, when you feel an
[20:55] emotion, like breathe into it. Try see
[20:58] if you can make it bigger. Like
[20:59] whatever's happening, just amplify it,
[21:01] right? But one of my mentors
[21:04] said to me one day, um
[21:07] you know, this is also a receiving
[21:09] practice.
[21:10] So, rather than pushing, can you just be
[21:13] with whatever's happening?
[21:15] >> Yeah.
[21:15] >> And I had this really profound
[21:18] breathwork experience after that because
[21:21] I got to a point where
[21:24] it was sort of a crossroads in the
[21:25] experience where I'm like, okay, this is
[21:27] normally where I would start to push and
[21:29] make it bigger and like try to make
[21:32] something happen.
[21:34] And instead I was I you know, I heard
[21:37] her words and I was like, okay, I'm just
[21:38] going to lay back, I'm going to receive,
[21:40] I'm just going to open to whatever is
[21:42] happening.
[21:43] And I dropped into this space that felt
[21:45] so deep
[21:47] that I really had very little reference
[21:51] point for what was happening. And when I
[21:54] came out of it, the only thing that I
[21:56] could compare it to was
[21:59] that sort of deconstruction that happens
[22:03] in the 5-MeO-DMT experience.
[22:05] >> Mhm.
[22:06] >> Where you're like your your self kind of
[22:09] deconstructs and you just join into this
[22:11] unity sort of consciousness um, and stay
[22:15] there for a while. And I was so just
[22:18] blown away by, oh, I really thought, you
[22:22] know, after I've had hundreds of these
[22:24] experiences and facilitated, you know,
[22:26] quite a bit that I really understood
[22:28] what was happening. But here I was in
[22:31] like a space that felt brand new and
[22:33] really, really intense.
[22:35] >> [snorts]
[22:36] >> I think that's just the thing with
[22:38] working with non-ordinary experiences
[22:40] and states, right? Like it's like once
[22:42] we think we got it figured out Nope,
[22:44] there's something else there as well.
[22:47] >> Yeah, and and Grof, you know, Grof very,
[22:51] um, has extensively cataloged kind of
[22:53] what happens in non-ordinary states. So,
[22:56] that was another reason that I really
[22:58] kind of gravitated towards holotropic
[23:00] breathwork. And you know, Grof you know,
[23:02] according to his cartography of the
[23:04] psyche, there's these sort of three
[23:06] buckets of experiences that can come up.
[23:09] Um, the bi- anything biographical, the
[23:12] perinatal, anything that happened during
[23:14] the breath the birth process, and then
[23:16] the transpersonal.
[23:18] So, the transpersonal is really where
[23:20] things can
[23:22] um the lines between what what's
[23:23] happening in the psychedelic space and
[23:25] the breathwork space can really blur
[23:27] together. I've had
[23:29] um you know, past life experiences
[23:31] within breathwork, um
[23:34] you know, experiences of encountering,
[23:36] you know, deities or different, you
[23:38] know, entities, different energies.
[23:40] Um even like connecting to more of an
[23:43] archetypal, you know, kind of energy,
[23:45] whether that's
[23:47] um you know, feeling grief or pain for
[23:50] the collective, for humanity,
[23:53] um or
[23:54] you know, within my own like family
[23:56] lineage. Um things that just, you know,
[23:58] aren't quite easily explainable through
[24:02] uh you know, our western psych-
[24:04] psychological understanding.
[24:07] >> I think that's what turned me on to like
[24:08] that framework, too, right? It's like
[24:09] some of the other breathwork practices,
[24:11] like I think just didn't come with like
[24:14] that cartography of the psyche that
[24:15] could like really hold everything to be
[24:18] like, oh, this is what it's like, you
[24:21] know, possibly going on. Um and I think
[24:23] like having that was always like really
[24:26] beneficial.
[24:27] Um I'm curious, you know, as you were
[24:29] talking about this like concept of like
[24:32] making it bigger, and then like, you
[24:34] know,
[24:36] having this other experience of like not
[24:38] making it bigger, like how have you been
[24:41] kind of I guess thinking about that,
[24:43] right? Cuz there's a lot of emphasis on
[24:45] catharsis, whether that's in the
[24:47] psychedelic space, and also in the
[24:49] breathwork space, and I'm guilty of that
[24:50] as well. But, I've done a lot of
[24:52] reflecting on this over the years, too,
[24:54] and I think I've really kind of like
[24:55] shifted my perspective there, and it
[24:57] sounds like you have too, so I'm
[24:58] wondering like is catharsis always
[25:00] needed? Should we always seek catharsis?
[25:03] Should we always make it bigger? You
[25:04] know, I know Stan's got that quote, um
[25:06] the full expression of a negative
[25:08] emotion is the funeral pyre of that
[25:09] emotion. You know, and it's like we want
[25:11] to make it bigger to like feed the fire
[25:13] to just like completely burn it out, but
[25:16] is that always appropriate?
[25:18] >> [laughter]
[25:19] >> I love that you're bringing this up.
[25:20] It's uh
[25:22] it's something I've been thinking about
[25:24] a lot, and even you know, within this
[25:26] last uh retreat there were a couple of
[25:29] sessions where
[25:31] my experiences were very internal
[25:34] even though there was a lot of like a
[25:37] lot of emotion coming up, a lot of um
[25:40] sort of internal like self-driven
[25:42] catharsis. And then there was a couple
[25:44] of experiences where I was working with
[25:46] facilitators. There was a there was a
[25:48] lot of external things happening, a lot
[25:51] of big like, you know, physical
[25:54] processes.
[25:56] And after um
[25:59] you know, after the the last two, which
[26:01] were really really big,
[26:03] um you know, I had peers approaching me
[26:06] sort of in the integration circle saying
[26:08] like wow, you really did a lot of good
[26:10] work today.
[26:12] And I'm sitting there going I did I did
[26:14] good work even when you couldn't see it
[26:16] or it wasn't happening externally. Like
[26:19] what why why do we put so much emphasis
[26:22] on those big cathartic uh moments where
[26:27] um
[26:28] but to
[26:30] to to answer your question a little bit
[26:31] more directly um I think that sometimes
[26:35] it's a process.
[26:37] And for me there's there's there's
[26:39] discernment around
[26:42] is this something that I need to make
[26:44] bigger or something that I can just sit
[26:45] with. And I've had that I've had those
[26:48] experiences recently with medicine and
[26:51] with breathwork, you know, in my recent
[26:54] in my recent medicine journey,
[26:56] um
[26:57] when it came time to do the booster,
[27:00] I was in the middle of processing this
[27:03] absolute terror and just trying to get
[27:06] this terror out of my body, and there
[27:08] was no way that I wanted to take any
[27:11] more medicine.
[27:13] But after that wave kind of passed,
[27:16] I started to feel this like there's this
[27:19] little voice inside that was like, "Hey,
[27:20] you're already here.
[27:22] Like let's go. Let's go further, you
[27:25] know?"
[27:26] And
[27:27] I talked about it with my facilitator.
[27:30] And ultimately, I decided that
[27:33] this was a good like not taking more was
[27:37] a really good lesson for me because in
[27:39] the past, I would have just been like,
[27:42] "All right, let's just take as much as
[27:43] possible. Let's go as big as we can."
[27:46] And so that there was value in like
[27:47] staying where I was, which was, you
[27:50] know, very deep already. Like I didn't
[27:53] need to push any further.
[27:55] Um
[27:56] and
[27:57] you know, then then the experiences that
[28:00] I've shared with you about the
[28:01] breathwork,
[28:02] um
[28:03] I find for me personally,
[28:06] there's it's learning to listen and have
[28:09] that inner discernment. And when there's
[28:11] something that is going to continue to
[28:14] develop and get bigger,
[28:18] I can't really ignore
[28:20] that internal message. It might start
[28:22] really, really far away
[28:24] and be like a little, little, teeny,
[28:26] tiny whisper.
[28:27] And in the breathwork, what that's
[28:28] looked like is like,
[28:30] "Okay, I hear something.
[28:32] I don't necessarily want to pay
[28:33] attention to it, but it's there." And
[28:36] then it might evolve into, "I'll take
[28:38] care of this by myself."
[28:39] >> Mhm.
[28:40] >> Like I'll give myself some self-touch,
[28:42] for instance.
[28:44] And then it's like, "Nope, that's it's
[28:45] doing it." And then like, "Okay, well,
[28:47] I'll reach out and hold my sitter's
[28:49] hand." Is that going to do it?
[28:52] No. And so, like it it's it'll continue
[28:54] to develop until,
[28:56] you know, it reaches that that funeral
[28:59] pyre, you know, kind of moment or or
[29:01] process. But sometimes that takes a a
[29:04] lot of time and it might take multiple
[29:06] sessions to really learn to trust that
[29:10] voice. Um you know, certainly I I know
[29:13] that that's been my experience and and
[29:16] I've talked to lots of other people and
[29:17] and clients I've worked with where it's
[29:19] like
[29:20] it might not happen the first time. It's
[29:22] so It's so challenging for us to ask for
[29:25] help sometimes, you know, or or or trust
[29:28] that in that inner discernment. So,
[29:31] um I think that's the great thing about,
[29:33] you know, framing it in that model of
[29:35] the inner healer or that movement
[29:37] towards wholeness that we were talking
[29:38] about is like
[29:40] um
[29:41] even, you know, even psychosis
[29:43] can be this you know, this this this
[29:46] opening, this this movement towards
[29:47] wholeness and ultimately
[29:51] I'm not there with my clients to say,
[29:54] "No, no, you need to do this more or
[29:55] less." I I trust in their inner healer.
[29:58] I trust in their unfolding process and
[30:01] I'm there to support them in that. So,
[30:03] that was another like real um you know,
[30:07] keeper moment with with one of my
[30:09] mentors is she said, "Look, I I trust
[30:11] your inner healer until you trust your
[30:13] inner healer." And that's what I'm here
[30:15] for.
[30:16] >> Yeah.
[30:18] I guess like on that topic of
[30:19] discernment, like
[30:21] what if people are getting like messages
[30:24] that
[30:25] that maybe they shouldn't be listening
[30:26] to, right? Like how do you like really
[30:29] distill discernment and like really know
[30:31] what to to listen to? You know, you're
[30:32] bringing up psychosis and it's making me
[30:34] think about like
[30:36] some folks I used to work with with
[30:37] early episode psychosis and like some of
[30:39] that stuff that they were receiving
[30:42] wasn't always necessarily like positive,
[30:44] right? And there was a part of me that
[30:46] wanted to like show up and be like, you
[30:47] know, this inner healer, healing inner
[30:49] healing intelligence, this like more
[30:52] kind of like spiritual emergence
[30:53] framework, and then all of a sudden it's
[30:55] like, wait a minute, but is this stuff
[30:57] that people should be listening to all
[30:59] the time? And you know, psychosis I
[31:01] think is the extreme end, but you know,
[31:03] I know that sometimes that paranoid
[31:04] thinking um and you know, really kind of
[31:07] like difficult emotions and feelings can
[31:09] come through in psychosis and
[31:10] breathwork. But yeah, I think it's the
[31:13] question of discernment, like what do we
[31:14] listen to?
[31:16] >> Mhm.
[31:17] It's such a good question, right? And
[31:20] it
[31:22] I guess I would say
[31:24] at least in my own experience, sometimes
[31:26] this journey isn't linear.
[31:28] You know, like I've I've gone through
[31:30] those experiences, too, where like, man,
[31:32] I wish I could go back and and change
[31:34] some of the decisions that I made,
[31:36] especially around medicine work. Um you
[31:39] know, but
[31:41] the even though some of those
[31:42] experiences have been really
[31:44] challenging, and maybe I would have been
[31:46] better off
[31:47] uh taking a different decision at the
[31:49] time,
[31:50] it led me to exactly this moment.
[31:53] And there's a lot of gifts and things
[31:54] that I've been given and and I've
[31:57] learned through sometimes really
[31:59] challenging processes. And I and I think
[32:02] that that's a human
[32:03] thing, especially for us facilitators,
[32:06] where we want to help. You know, you see
[32:08] someone struggling, and and the impulse
[32:10] is like, oh man, it would it would be so
[32:13] much easier if they just did it this
[32:15] way,
[32:16] but that's not their journey.
[32:18] You know, and and at the end of the day,
[32:19] I can just be there to support them
[32:22] through, you know, not only the
[32:24] the beauty and the like the bliss and
[32:26] the ecstasy, but the the challenging
[32:28] things, as well.
[32:30] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[32:31] Um
[32:34] I had a question, just slipped my mind.
[32:36] Um maybe it'll come back. Um, but yeah,
[32:39] the it's it's so nuanced at times, too,
[32:41] right? Like I was just actually chatting
[32:45] with somebody a little bit before this
[32:46] around um like spiritual emergence
[32:49] processes, and I was reflecting on my
[32:51] own, and I think it took about like 5
[32:54] years to like really work through that
[32:56] experience. And I think about it, I'm
[32:59] like, I don't ever want to go through
[33:00] something like that again, and I don't
[33:02] ever wish that upon anybody.
[33:05] Um, but as you're saying, right? Like, I
[33:07] don't think I would actually be doing
[33:08] any of this work if I didn't go through
[33:10] that process.
[33:12] Um, and in some way it's like,
[33:13] retrospectively, you know, I've had time
[33:16] to sit and integrate with it, and
[33:17] breathwork was a huge part of
[33:19] integrating those those really
[33:21] challenging experiences.
[33:23] Um, but it was like, yeah, if I didn't
[33:26] go through that, like I don't know if
[33:28] I'd actually be doing this work. I think
[33:30] my life would have taken a totally
[33:32] different turn. But it was like such a
[33:35] silly thing. I was like reading this uh
[33:37] I was doing an independent study on
[33:39] warriorship in my undergrad, and there
[33:41] was a a stupid quote. It was like, you
[33:43] know, life's like a tea bag. It dips you
[33:45] in hot water to see how strong you are.
[33:47] It was like a lightning bolt moment, and
[33:48] I said, "Oh my god, that's it. This is
[33:50] what this whole process has been. I've
[33:52] been the tea bag, just submerged in hot
[33:55] water.
[33:56] Um, and I'm like, oh, okay. Like, that's
[34:00] I think why all this stuff has happened
[34:02] to me." But yeah, I don't wish that upon
[34:03] anybody, you know, it's also terrifying
[34:05] to be stuck in a process like that.
[34:08] >> Right. Right. Yeah, I remember feeling
[34:10] angry for several years whenever I'd
[34:13] hear these sort of platitudes of like
[34:15] everything happens for a reason, or, you
[34:18] know, like I'd be like, "Who the hell
[34:20] are you to tell me that?" Like, you
[34:21] know, and and I still I still feel
[34:23] really strongly about just what you're
[34:25] saying, that that these journeys and
[34:28] dark nights of the soul, or, you know,
[34:30] spiritual emergencies that we go
[34:32] through,
[34:33] um
[34:34] it's really important not to,
[34:36] um
[34:38] not to take other people's judgments or
[34:41] opinions as the gospel, that really it's
[34:43] it's up to us to find our own truth, and
[34:47] it's been so important for me to have
[34:49] people around me that share that view,
[34:52] and you know, can reframe it for me.
[34:55] Like, even within this last medicine uh
[34:57] journey that I had, which was
[34:59] the intention that I had going into it
[35:01] was
[35:02] healing some of the the trauma around,
[35:05] um you know, a psychedelic experience.
[35:08] And, um
[35:11] having facilitators around me that I
[35:14] could talk to, and elders even, that
[35:16] were like
[35:17] yeah, this is this is this was an
[35:19] initiation for you.
[35:21] Rather than oh, this was horrible, or
[35:24] this was this, this was that. Um you
[35:27] know, one of one of my elders you know,
[35:29] I was and I didn't even describe it to
[35:32] him in detail, but he said
[35:34] you know, you're
[35:35] you're like a a snake shedding its skin,
[35:37] and that's when the snake is the most
[35:39] vulnerable, is right in that moment
[35:42] after the skin comes off.
[35:44] Um so, yeah, I I I I think that for me,
[35:47] and just like just what you're saying um
[35:50] I wouldn't I would not be here. I would
[35:52] not be doing the type of work that I'm
[35:53] doing. I I would not have the
[35:56] understanding of trauma that I do. I
[35:58] definitely wouldn't have done
[36:00] the Somatic Experiencing program, which
[36:02] was another 3-year, you know, training.
[36:05] >> Um cuz I thought I understood trauma.
[36:08] And I understood complex trauma, but I
[36:09] didn't I didn't know what trauma
[36:11] actually was, you know, what shock
[36:13] trauma does to somebody. So, the for me
[36:16] being able to sit with somebody that's,
[36:18] you know, experienced PTSD, or
[36:22] um you know, has an anxiety disorder, or
[36:24] like severe depression, which to me all
[36:27] stems back to trauma.
[36:30] Now, it's it's a real blessing and it's
[36:32] a real gift and I wouldn't have been
[36:33] able to do that with how without going
[36:35] through my own,
[36:37] you know, initiation process. And just
[36:39] like you said, I wouldn't wish that on
[36:41] anyone, but I remember
[36:44] I remember talking about it one day and
[36:47] I said, you know, if I could go back and
[36:49] change it, I wouldn't. And I like
[36:51] literally had to stop myself and do like
[36:53] an internal check of, am I being serious
[36:55] right now? Am I am I posturing, you
[36:58] know, to to sound cool or to sound like
[37:00] I know what I'm talking about? And, you
[37:02] know, when I looked inside, I was, no,
[37:04] I'm wow.
[37:06] I've I've gotten to this point where I
[37:07] can say that to myself and really mean
[37:09] it of like, well, I wouldn't change
[37:10] this. This is this is just a part of my
[37:12] journey.
[37:14] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that takes I think
[37:16] a lot of work to get there, you know, to
[37:19] actually just like accept what what has
[37:22] happened. Um, you know, you're bringing
[37:23] up like somatic experiencing.
[37:26] Um, and I think I actually like brought
[37:27] this up with uh Peter Levine when I uh
[37:29] chatted with him.
[37:31] And I I this goes back to this whole
[37:33] catharsis thing. You know, I
[37:35] in one of his books, I forget what book
[37:37] it was, he was talking about how
[37:39] um, during like the Esalen period,
[37:42] anything I think it was like he said,
[37:44] quote unquote, the primal therapies that
[37:46] came out of Esalen actually created more
[37:49] trauma for people. It retraumatized
[37:51] people
[37:52] um, because of like all this catharsis.
[37:54] Has your like training in somatic
[37:56] experience kind of like, I don't know,
[37:59] shed different light on this type of
[38:02] work, whether it's in psychedelics or
[38:03] like holotropic breathwork where there
[38:05] can be that big catharsis?
[38:08] >> Yeah, and it's such a great this is such
[38:10] a great topic um, because that was that
[38:13] was me in the beginning of SE training
[38:15] was coming in as a breathwork
[38:17] facilitator. That's that's how they let
[38:19] me in, you know, SE training they don't
[38:21] just let anybody in. The majority of the
[38:23] people are therapists and um
[38:26] I was a working
[38:28] breathwork facilitator working at a
[38:29] residential treatment and could could
[38:31] prove that. And so they were like,
[38:33] "Okay, you're qualified to to enter this
[38:35] program." But at in the beginning it
[38:37] felt very polarized. Like on the one
[38:40] side, you've got this make it bigger,
[38:42] you know, burn it all down, Grofian kind
[38:45] of perspective. And then on the other is
[38:46] Peter Levine's titration and you know,
[38:50] um like take it slow and and and and it
[38:53] really was challenging for me at first
[38:56] to find how do these two systems work
[38:58] together?
[39:00] What really helped me, honestly, was my
[39:02] advanced year of of SE training
[39:06] um with Raja Selvam
[39:08] uh who really talked about how um in in
[39:12] Raja was the the first teacher that
[39:14] Peter invited to teach SE back when he
[39:17] started to scale it out. Now there's
[39:19] like probably I don't know, 50 or 60
[39:22] different, you know, people on their
[39:23] teaching staff. Um but he said, "You
[39:25] know, I feel like
[39:27] um I feel like SE practitioners are too
[39:30] afraid nowadays to get in there. Um you
[39:33] know, somebody's coming to you because
[39:36] they want to be able to get on the
[39:37] airplane next week. They don't have a
[39:39] year to learn how to track. Um so like
[39:42] don't be afraid to get in there with
[39:44] them and like work on the the emotion,
[39:46] which is at the you know, yes, we're
[39:48] working with sensation, but what's
[39:50] underneath that sensation? What's
[39:51] causing that sensation? It's emotion,
[39:53] right? Um and so being able to like get
[39:56] in there and and be with the root of
[39:58] that. And so to me, it really gave me a
[40:01] lot of permission to um to make it
[40:05] bigger in its own way. Like maybe not
[40:07] taking it to the extreme of of
[40:09] holotropic breathwork, but to to not shy
[40:12] away from like being with my with my
[40:16] client and allowing things to come up
[40:20] when they were coming up organically.
[40:22] And I think that's a big part of SE is
[40:24] like not pushing for catharsis, but also
[40:28] being able to develop enough resiliency
[40:31] in the nervous system where these big
[40:33] experiences can emerge and then being
[40:36] able to hold that.
[40:38] And not and you know, and I've seen it
[40:40] I've seen it in other SE practitioners
[40:42] not to be like a snob or anything, but
[40:44] where they're like oh like they're
[40:45] starting to back away from it from the
[40:48] intensity
[40:49] and I think because of the breathwork
[40:51] experience, I'm like no, this is this is
[40:53] where some good stuff's going to emerge
[40:55] if it's happening organically like let's
[40:57] let's let it happen.
[40:59] >> I think you bring up like a good I mean
[41:01] I maybe this is pointing to the you
[41:04] know, the facilitator the practitioners
[41:06] nervous system. You know, you're talking
[41:07] about like the client's nervous system,
[41:09] but how much of that is actually within
[41:11] us? How much can we hold, right? Before
[41:14] we start getting like anxious or scared
[41:16] of like this is too much, right? Like
[41:18] how much is that really on us and our
[41:20] nervous system and and how we're like
[41:22] co-regulating with somebody.
[41:24] >> 100% 100%. I think the more that we can
[41:27] be regulated, the more that we feel safe
[41:31] holding the space and and helping them
[41:33] to co-regulate, that's just going to
[41:35] create more safety for for our clients
[41:38] and um
[41:39] yeah, that's that's where my work has
[41:41] been kind of moving towards in the last
[41:44] year especially. Um I have a training
[41:46] that's coming up in November that's
[41:48] specifically designed for facilitators
[41:51] and clinicians on how to integrate some
[41:53] of these tools with you know, it within
[41:55] clinical work and within people that are
[41:57] doing you know, ketamine assisted
[41:59] psychotherapy or other working with
[42:00] other psychedelics because because of
[42:02] exactly what you're saying. Like it's so
[42:04] important for us to be regulated and and
[42:07] be present um so that we can hold these
[42:10] things that that coming up within their
[42:11] experiences.
[42:13] >> Yeah. What does that training look like?
[42:15] >> Um it's 3 days um and kind of
[42:19] kind of follows the the reverse of the
[42:22] of what I shared. Um so it starts with
[42:23] awareness and somatics.
[42:25] Um then we move into nervous system
[42:28] regulation, first down regulation
[42:31] um for grounding, for stabilization, but
[42:34] then up regulation to help clients that
[42:37] maybe want to experience psychedelics,
[42:39] but might feel overwhelmed or flooded if
[42:42] they went right into that. So giving
[42:44] them like either a little taste of a
[42:46] non-ordinary experience or even just
[42:48] stressing the nervous system a little
[42:50] bit, you know, the giving them that sort
[42:52] of like hormesis type of um you know,
[42:55] stress, right? Like in the same way
[42:57] that, you know, going into a sauna or an
[43:00] ice bath can help with um improving
[43:03] nervous system resiliency.
[43:05] Um having a little bit What I found
[43:08] especially in a clinical setting is
[43:10] giving someone whose nervous system is
[43:13] really like has a low capacity or gets
[43:17] flooded really easily,
[43:19] um giving them that little experience of
[43:21] expansion, but then coming back into
[43:25] regulation um helps the the nervous
[43:28] system start to reorganize and and and
[43:30] expand and feel a little bit safer
[43:33] moving into, you know, some territory
[43:35] that might feel otherwise unsafe. And
[43:37] then the last day we're doing um like a
[43:39] full neurodynamic experiential
[43:42] um kind of experience. So
[43:44] it's um it's in person in St. Paul and
[43:47] online at the same time. And um because
[43:50] we're doing it in Minnesota, we've
[43:52] gotten it approved for 14 CEUs um there
[43:55] in the state.
[43:55] >> Nice.
[43:56] >> Um I don't know how that works with
[43:58] people doing the online um exactly, but
[44:01] that was that was part of my vision was
[44:02] like I want this to be,
[44:04] you know, eligible for for CEs for for
[44:07] the people taking it.
[44:09] >> [snorts]
[44:09] >> Yeah, which can be important. I know a
[44:11] lot of renewals are coming up and I'm in
[44:13] that boat and need to try to knock out a
[44:15] bunch of credits before renewal happens.
[44:19] Um
[44:20] yeah.
[44:21] Uh
[44:22] Yeah, and I
[44:24] you've been having some like really
[44:26] funny uh threads recently about this
[44:28] topic, I feel like, too. So,
[44:31] um
[44:33] What are some of your haunted houses
[44:34] right now on [laughter] the on this
[44:36] topic?
[44:37] >> Yeah, that was the that was a funny one,
[44:38] right? Like well,
[44:40] you know, I think something that has
[44:43] been
[44:44] a big thorn in my side or a big, you
[44:46] know, this really grinds my gears types
[44:48] moment is, you know, folks that get like
[44:51] a weekend, you know, sort of go through
[44:53] a weekend training and then they're
[44:55] jumping into doing, you know, deep work
[44:57] with people. Or even, you know, and I've
[45:00] I've had this experience myself where,
[45:02] you know, you have a
[45:04] a deep psychedelic experience and the
[45:06] medicine says, "You're you're a shaman,
[45:08] like start serving medicine." And
[45:11] um I I get the appeal of that,
[45:13] especially like coming right out of a
[45:15] big peak experience, but what I've, you
[45:17] know, what I've said to clients is like,
[45:19] "Hey, you're actually choosing a really
[45:20] challenging
[45:22] path for yourself by doing this because
[45:25] it's it's um
[45:28] it's really necessary, if you're doing
[45:30] this type of work, to continue to do
[45:32] your own work for yourself. Like, if you
[45:34] look at holotropic breathwork just as an
[45:36] example for their training, you know,
[45:39] the the minimum that you can complete
[45:41] that program in is like somewhere within
[45:43] 2 to 3 years. And Grof the Grofs set it
[45:47] up that way because
[45:49] of the importance of doing your own work
[45:52] in this process, right? Um
[45:55] like that you really need to continue to
[45:58] to do your own work. Um so, yeah, that
[46:02] that's definitely a haunted house for me
[46:04] is like, you know, people that um have
[46:07] that sort of
[46:09] that that that vigor and that enthusiasm
[46:11] for holding space, but maybe haven't
[46:13] explored their own
[46:15] um shadows and like dark corners
[46:18] um or their their edges themselves and
[46:21] are trying to hold that for other
[46:22] people. Um and breathwork especially,
[46:24] well, I guess I guess all of this work
[46:26] it it can
[46:27] it seems really it you know
[46:30] I'm sure you've you've had this
[46:32] experience as well where, you know, you
[46:34] go through a session with someone and
[46:36] nothing happens externally. You know,
[46:39] they're like sort of laying there and
[46:41] you know, nothing nothing adverse
[46:43] happens, right? And so it's easy it's
[46:45] easy to get into that space of like, oh,
[46:47] I can do this. I've done it 10 times
[46:49] before, right? But then what happens
[46:51] when something does come up?
[46:53] You know, are you are you able to hold
[46:55] that space and support that person
[46:58] through a very tender and delicate time?
[47:01] And I think you probably see it much
[47:04] more than I do with the people that you
[47:06] talk to.
[47:07] Um you know, there there are adverse
[47:09] experiences that are happening for
[47:10] people because of the lack of
[47:13] facilitator training.
[47:15] Um
[47:16] you know, and and it's it's it's
[47:18] something that I feel very passionate
[47:20] about of like, hey, we we really need to
[47:22] be doing our own work and taking care of
[47:24] ourselves if we're going to be helping
[47:26] and supporting people through these
[47:27] spaces.
[47:29] >> Yeah, and I don't know yeah, it's I
[47:32] mean, it's obviously been something I've
[47:33] been thinking about for all these years
[47:35] like being in the education space and
[47:37] running training programs and you know,
[47:39] I always remind folks that like when I
[47:41] started on my breathwork journey, I
[47:44] didn't start off thinking, I want to
[47:45] facilitate this, right? It started off
[47:47] with like, whoa, this is super powerful
[47:50] and I want to keep learning about this.
[47:52] And I think I trained for over 4 years
[47:56] before even thinking about putting on
[47:58] like a small workshop for my friends.
[48:01] You know, I was like, I'm going to start
[48:02] small. I have no idea like how this is
[48:04] going to go, but I'm just going to kind
[48:05] of do it slowly. And that's like what my
[48:07] teachers really recommended, you know?
[48:09] Like Um and I feel so fortunate enough
[48:12] to to have studied with Lenny and
[48:15] Elizabeth because, you know, they also
[48:17] had so much mentorship and like such
[48:19] like a slow personal type of experience
[48:22] there. Um but, you know, it was like 4
[48:26] plus years of my own process of like
[48:28] just doing it and um
[48:31] not thinking like, "Oh, I want to go run
[48:33] and and facilitate this right away." But
[48:35] it's it's tough now, you know? It's like
[48:36] we do live in a culture where it's like
[48:39] that's more money, it's more time,
[48:41] things are like getting more expensive
[48:43] at times. We have like lived in this
[48:45] culture of like, you know, quick short
[48:47] certificate programs and just wanting to
[48:49] learn things right away and and apply
[48:51] it. But then also being very real and
[48:54] thinking like this you can't rush this
[48:55] work, you know? You also have to sit
[48:57] with it. You have to like really devote
[49:00] your energy to it and, you know, still
[49:03] like what I've been like
[49:05] studying this stuff for about like 20
[49:07] years at this point and
[49:10] I sometimes have no idea what the [ __ ]
[49:12] I'm doing. You [laughter] know? I'm just
[49:14] like every time I think I like I'm like,
[49:16] "Okay, yeah." And then I'm like, "Uh
[49:18] that one threw me for a loop. I don't
[49:20] know what just happened there."
[49:22] Um
[49:22] or like, "Yeah, like just you know, I
[49:26] cuz this work is alive, too. I mean,
[49:28] that's my perspective.
[49:29] >> Right.
[49:30] >> We're working with like this energetic
[49:32] field that feels alive and we could do
[49:35] the best prep we can do with folks. And
[49:37] I've seen this, you know, like over and
[49:40] over again where it's like, "Okay, like
[49:42] I knew somebody very well and I knew
[49:46] their story. I did some work with them."
[49:48] And then
[49:49] you know, would never expect a spiritual
[49:51] emergence process to unfold for for for
[49:54] a person, you know, and it's like
[49:57] we've done you know, we could have done
[49:58] everything right and still something is
[50:00] going to erupt. And I think that's what
[50:02] makes this work so interesting and like
[50:05] I always remind folks that that want to
[50:07] work in this field. It's like you know,
[50:09] what's what's your comfort level of
[50:10] uncertainty the unknown and chaos
[50:12] because you're certainly going to get it
[50:14] in this work in some way, shape or form.
[50:17] Maybe not right away, but but it does
[50:19] come eventually.
[50:21] >> 100%. I love that. You know, yeah, you
[50:24] you just
[50:25] you can't know everything that's going
[50:27] to happen.
[50:28] And sometimes it's just okay like being
[50:31] willing to
[50:33] to sit in really difficult and
[50:36] uncomfortable uncertainty and still kind
[50:38] of hold that space within yourself.
[50:41] Um
[50:43] it's one of the things I've really
[50:44] appreciated through the whole tropic
[50:46] training experience is like every time
[50:48] something has come up within me that I
[50:50] feel scared to talk about um where I
[50:52] feel like if I share this
[50:55] they're going to go
[50:57] okay, you can't do this work [laughter]
[50:58] anymore. Like you you got to go you got
[51:01] to go back to the beginning or you know,
[51:04] um and I you know, and I I'm
[51:07] I feel brave enough to share it with
[51:09] someone or I'll be in a consult and I'll
[51:11] be like hey, this is what's been coming
[51:12] up and it feels so scary to share. And
[51:16] you know, people just look at me and
[51:17] they go yeah, like you're a human being
[51:19] or oh, I feel that way too. We feel that
[51:21] way all the time. You know, you well,
[51:23] what do you do? You you just keep
[51:25] breathing. You sit with it. Like you you
[51:28] you you're you have the capacity to hold
[51:30] it and maybe can part like put it over
[51:32] here until after the clients are gone
[51:36] and then we will all sit and unpack it
[51:38] and and work on it together. So no one's
[51:40] ever no one's ever like shunned me or
[51:42] you know, that that fear that I have of
[51:44] like oh, you know,
[51:45] if you you if I'm if I'm honest, they're
[51:48] going to kick me out of this program. Um
[51:50] It's never happened.
[51:52] >> I remember one of the first workshops I
[51:53] did with Stan. I was like so excited and
[51:56] I was like, "Oh man, this is going to be
[51:57] great." And then they're doing kind of
[52:00] like the pre-check-ins and then they're
[52:03] they're calling some of the folks up to
[52:05] to chat with Stan and I hear my name
[52:07] called and I'm like, "Oh man, am I
[52:09] getting kicked out of here?" Cuz I was
[52:11] like thinking about what I put down on
[52:12] my health form, right? And put down like
[52:15] near-death experience, spiritual
[52:17] emergence, and you know, I remember he
[52:19] was sitting down like just asking me
[52:21] questions about it. I'm like, "Oh man,
[52:24] like am I going to get kicked out of
[52:25] here cuz I have this, right?"
[52:28] But yeah, that wasn't the case. And I
[52:29] think it's important that we
[52:32] are able to create those containers to
[52:34] like, you know, explore that, all of it,
[52:37] right? Without a lot of the judgment
[52:39] because we are human and like, you know,
[52:42] we're going to we're going to mess up,
[52:43] we're going to have mistakes. I mean,
[52:45] life's going to happen, things are going
[52:46] to happen to us and, you know, to be
[52:49] able to have that space of curiosity and
[52:52] and humility to be like, "Yeah,
[52:54] I might have messed up here. Like this
[52:55] is what's going on for me and
[52:58] >> Yeah, it's it's cool to be in spaces
[53:00] where
[53:02] maybe like maybe you don't know
[53:06] that the people that are holding the
[53:08] space and and are there to take care of
[53:10] you,
[53:11] like you could go so much farther
[53:15] than maybe you're even comfortable or
[53:17] that you know is inside of you,
[53:20] you know, like those are those moments
[53:22] where
[53:23] I feel really great and I feel really
[53:25] grateful to be in those spaces of like
[53:27] when someone's taking a little extra
[53:29] time with me.
[53:31] When I feel ready to go, for instance,
[53:33] after a session and the facilitator's
[53:36] like,
[53:37] "Hey, let's just hang out here for a
[53:38] minute."
[53:41] You know, taking that extra like little
[53:43] pause
[53:44] where something else that really did
[53:46] want to emerge, but I was trying to
[53:48] maybe like rush out of there and you
[53:50] know, not not deal with it.
[53:53] And to me like that's where the SE has
[53:55] really helped me a lot is like having
[53:56] that kind of somatic awareness of like
[53:59] when that's happening.
[54:00] Um
[54:02] and and to be able to um
[54:04] to invite those moments. Like, hey,
[54:06] you're you are free to go if you want,
[54:08] but like
[54:09] maybe let's just hang here for another
[54:11] few breaths.
[54:13] >> Well, and you talked to like earlier
[54:15] about like this almost being like a
[54:17] process, right? And it's like sometimes
[54:20] we're not always like aware of the
[54:22] process or curious about it. Like when
[54:24] you were uh telling uh me that story, it
[54:27] just reminded me of a
[54:29] an experience I had where I was trying
[54:30] to rush out and the facilitator like was
[54:32] like, "We're only like an hour and a
[54:33] half in. Like you're like, you know,
[54:36] like maybe just sit and listen to like a
[54:38] little bit more music to see like what
[54:40] happens there." And I could feel like
[54:42] the anger bubble up, be like, "You know,
[54:44] don't tell me like what my experience
[54:46] should be like. Like I feel like I'm
[54:47] done. I want to go draw." And then I was
[54:50] actually like glad they challenged me.
[54:51] And you know, this is somebody I had a a
[54:53] relationship with, so I feel like they
[54:55] they could challenge me in in that
[54:56] setting.
[54:57] Um
[54:59] and a really profound experience
[55:01] unfolded after that. Um
[55:04] like something that was just so so
[55:07] weird. It kind of just like rippled into
[55:08] my like day-to-day. Um but I was like,
[55:12] man, like would it have happened if I
[55:14] didn't you know, listen and sit with it,
[55:16] right? And like follow the process
[55:18] instead of being like, "No, I'm just
[55:20] like getting antsy and I just want to
[55:21] like go draw versus like, "Oh, yeah,
[55:24] [snorts] maybe there is something else
[55:25] here." Um which has got me thinking more
[55:28] about like you know, we talk about
[55:30] breathwork as breath being the main
[55:32] thing. And like I almost see breath as
[55:34] just like an adjunct to this internal
[55:37] process that's going on. And it's like
[55:39] we can use the breath in all sorts of
[55:41] different ways to amplify that process,
[55:44] but there's so much else going on
[55:46] internally that like, you know, I don't
[55:48] think we always need to focus on the
[55:50] breath as well. It's like how do we get
[55:52] focused and more curious about those
[55:54] internal cues and processes, right? Like
[55:57] what's going on in my body? What's that
[55:59] feeling? Like what happens if I move it,
[56:01] you know? Movement. And like I'm sure
[56:03] have you experienced it? Like you know,
[56:05] not even doing deep breathing, but it's
[56:06] just moving your body in a different
[56:08] way. Like really starts to like shake
[56:10] something else up.
[56:12] Um
[56:12] >> Yeah.
[56:13] I I what you just shared, I can't agree
[56:16] with it more and um I say it all the
[56:18] time of like, yeah, calling it breath
[56:20] work is sort of misleading. It's like a
[56:22] it's a red herring, you know?
[56:24] Um
[56:25] and you know, I've seen it it's it's
[56:27] funny cuz like it's it's actually helped
[56:30] me
[56:31] um like doing this work has helped me
[56:33] believe more in that model of growth,
[56:37] you know, that of the inner healer and
[56:38] of inner healing intelligence because
[56:41] I've experienced it myself and I've seen
[56:43] it tons of times with clients where
[56:47] something begins to unfold where the
[56:49] breathing
[56:51] couldn't have been the reason that it
[56:52] happened. Like like we haven't been
[56:54] breathing long enough or the breathing
[56:57] hasn't even started yet. We're still in
[56:58] the you know, the relaxation meditation
[57:01] before the actual breath work begins.
[57:05] >> Yeah.
[57:05] >> I'm always off in the [laughter]
[57:07] relaxation. I'm already like gone. I'm
[57:09] like, yeah.
[57:10] >> Yeah. And you know, and especially like
[57:13] for me going into more clinical work and
[57:15] doing shorter sessions, it it helped to
[57:18] to to strengthen my my faith and my
[57:20] belief in that model is like, okay, like
[57:24] it's one thing to say like, hey, we're
[57:25] going to do holotropic breath work and
[57:27] we're going to breathe for 3 hours and
[57:29] probably something's going to happen
[57:30] within that, you know, that time frame.
[57:32] Well, you're giving yourself a huge
[57:33] amount of time. But, like
[57:36] okay, we're going to breathe for 5, 10,
[57:38] 15 minutes, and some and people have
[57:41] these profound, deep experiences.
[57:45] That's a beautiful thing, and like to me
[57:47] that that really that really points
[57:50] [snorts] to one of the the foundations
[57:52] of of the doing this work, which is
[57:55] giving yourself permission.
[57:57] You know, some people would call it
[57:58] surrender. I think permission's like a a
[58:00] nicer way to say that, right? There's
[58:02] something internally where we're we're
[58:05] giving ourselves permission to be with
[58:06] whatever happens, you know, like a an
[58:09] affirmation that I often give to my
[58:10] clients is like, I am here now with
[58:12] this.
[58:14] And it and it's really applicable when
[58:15] something big and intense is happening
[58:18] within the the breath work experience,
[58:21] but so many of them have come back to me
[58:22] and said, you know, like I was in the
[58:24] doctor's office, and my appointment was
[58:27] an hour late, and there was a crying
[58:29] baby next to me, and like they're going
[58:31] on, and they're like, and I just came
[58:33] back to my breath, and I'm here now with
[58:35] this. And just being able to like be
[58:38] with what's happening instead of being
[58:40] like,
[58:41] I [clears throat] just wish this wasn't
[58:42] happening right now, you know?
[58:45] >> Being with this tough and
[58:47] >> [snorts]
[58:48] >> really tough thing to do, right? Cuz
[58:49] yeah, we always we always want things to
[58:51] shift, or we have expectations around
[58:54] things being a certain way versus like
[58:56] yeah, what does it feel like to just to
[58:58] to be with?
[59:00] >> Yeah.
[59:02] Yeah, absolutely.
[59:04] >> So, going back, um you said you were
[59:07] going to be become a professional DJ, or
[59:10] you were you were doing some DJing. And
[59:13] music is obviously like a huge part of
[59:15] of, you know, psychedelic work and
[59:17] breath work. Um who are some of like
[59:20] your top artists that you like for some
[59:22] of this work?
[59:23] >> Ooh, here's a great question. Um well,
[59:26] Byron Metcalf,
[59:28] um
[59:28] >> OG space.
[59:30] >> OG,
[59:31] um you know, kind of legendary shamanic
[59:34] practitioner and percussionist.
[59:37] Um East Forest is another artist that I
[59:40] really, really love.
[59:42] Um
[59:43] there's a there's a
[59:45] a composer that I been using a lot. Um
[59:49] you know, the the within Holotropic
[59:51] especially for people maybe that haven't
[59:53] experienced it. There's a there's a
[59:55] particular arc to the music. The first
[59:57] hour is very tribal and you know,
[1:00:00] shamanic, a lot of like indigenous kind
[1:00:03] of drumming and um things like that. And
[1:00:05] then the second hour is very like
[1:00:07] typically like cinematic. There's a lot
[1:00:09] of
[1:00:10] um it can be like kind of classical, but
[1:00:12] the music's very evocative and and
[1:00:15] emotional. And there's a composer named
[1:00:17] JT Peterson that I've been um
[1:00:20] like using a lot of his stuff during
[1:00:22] that that kind of second kind of peak
[1:00:25] breakthrough.
[1:00:27] Um
[1:00:29] James Asher is another one that he's
[1:00:31] worked a lot with Byron.
[1:00:33] Um
[1:00:35] and then um I've been doing a lot of
[1:00:37] music lately for for CAP. Um so just um
[1:00:43] artists like
[1:00:45] Carbon Based Lifeforms,
[1:00:48] um Robot
[1:00:50] Koch. I don't know if I don't know
[1:00:52] exactly how you say his name. It might
[1:00:53] be Koch, but
[1:00:54] um it's like k o c h.
[1:00:57] Um
[1:00:58] is is
[1:00:59] uh
[1:01:00] that's a that's a really cool artist. Um
[1:01:04] yeah, like really exploring other pieces
[1:01:06] of it. And this is this is like one of
[1:01:09] my passions. Um I I do mixing and music
[1:01:12] curation for other facilitators
[1:01:15] um cuz it takes a long time and it's
[1:01:17] such an important part of the process.
[1:01:19] >> Yeah.
[1:01:20] >> And I've I've been blessed to, you know,
[1:01:21] be able to apply some of those DJ skills
[1:01:23] to, uh,
[1:01:25] you know, different different, uh,
[1:01:27] genre, so to speak.
[1:01:28] >> Yeah, yeah.
[1:01:30] Um,
[1:01:31] I'm curious, like,
[1:01:33] thinking about those
[1:01:35] four phases of Do you guys do four
[1:01:38] phases in Holotropic Breathwork? I
[1:01:39] always forget how it like differs from
[1:01:41] like what I've learned in Dream Shadow.
[1:01:43] >> Yeah, it's pretty much three, but it
[1:01:45] could I mean, you could you could parse
[1:01:47] it out a little bit more depending on
[1:01:49] what you're doing.
[1:01:50] >> Yeah, yeah. Um,
[1:01:52] what is like a favorite song for each of
[1:01:56] those phases for you that you that you
[1:01:58] really like? I know I I didn't I didn't
[1:02:01] prep you for this, but I'm
[1:02:02] >> I know. I'm like I'm pulling I'm pulling
[1:02:04] stuff up,
[1:02:05] uh,
[1:02:06] This is good. Um,
[1:02:11] Okay, for the first phase, I mean,
[1:02:13] shoot, there's so many. Um, but a really
[1:02:17] great song that I like is, um, the
[1:02:19] Clozee remix of Biome.
[1:02:22] Um, but any I mean, there's so many
[1:02:25] James Asher or, uh, you know, Byron
[1:02:28] Metcalf. There's a there's an EP that
[1:02:30] they did together a couple years ago
[1:02:33] that I've used every song on it. It So,
[1:02:36] if you like if you if you put in James
[1:02:38] Asher and Byron Metcalf, um, that's a
[1:02:42] really, really great, um, space to to
[1:02:46] explore. And then the song I've been
[1:02:48] really digging on lately,
[1:02:50] it's called Khan, k h a n, by The Sid, t
[1:02:56] h s i d h. And it's like it's like
[1:02:59] throat singing and bagpipes,
[1:03:01] um, which sounds like kind of weird, but
[1:03:04] it's so good.
[1:03:06] Um,
[1:03:07] for like the middle,
[1:03:10] mm,
[1:03:11] there's a really great artist named, um,
[1:03:14] A. Shamaluev,
[1:03:16] uh, music. It's all one word. Um and he
[1:03:19] just came out with this really great
[1:03:21] album called Tree of Life that's got
[1:03:24] like a lot of really beautiful like peak
[1:03:27] um kind of emotional
[1:03:29] um things on it. I mentioned JT
[1:03:32] Peterson.
[1:03:33] Um there's a song called Aquarius I've
[1:03:35] been using a lot of. Um and then um
[1:03:40] some of the music from like The Expanse
[1:03:43] um the the TV show I've been throwing
[1:03:46] that in there. Max Richter is another
[1:03:49] >> like stuff, yeah.
[1:03:50] >> Yeah, and he's he just came out with a
[1:03:52] new song called um
[1:03:55] What's it called?
[1:03:57] Uh
[1:03:58] one second.
[1:04:00] Now we can sing. There's a Now we can
[1:04:03] sing edit that's really really great. Um
[1:04:06] that's on my new like my latest set.
[1:04:09] And then
[1:04:11] uh the last section
[1:04:13] man, so many so many There's so many
[1:04:16] good directions that one can go here. Um
[1:04:19] There's an artist called Holly Kenniff.
[1:04:22] Um Amidst the Tall Grass, that's a
[1:04:25] really great song.
[1:04:27] Um
[1:04:30] Oh, there's this really cool um
[1:04:32] like kind of choir a cappella band
[1:04:35] called Stanford Talisman that has a
[1:04:37] version of the Cherokee Morning Song
[1:04:40] that's fantastic.
[1:04:42] Um but it's all it's all like a
[1:04:43] cappella.
[1:04:45] >> Yeah.
[1:04:45] >> Um
[1:04:47] give you one more. Uh Bergamot
[1:04:50] Beginnings by P Cuzzuma.
[1:04:52] And uh anything Jon Hopkins I mean I I
[1:04:55] can definitely get down with uh quite a
[1:04:58] bit.
[1:04:59] >> [snorts]
[1:05:00] >> Sweet. Thanks for all that. Yeah, it's
[1:05:02] always nice to hear like what other like
[1:05:04] folks are using for their playlists and
[1:05:07] like what what's inspiring you.
[1:05:09] >> [clears throat]
[1:05:09] >> There's one song I I really keep coming
[1:05:12] back to. We kind of break it up into
[1:05:14] four different categories. We have like
[1:05:15] the beginning, just like the activation,
[1:05:18] then we move into like that more
[1:05:19] cinematic, and then there's that other
[1:05:22] third phase, which it's like the
[1:05:24] homecoming. Um and I think about that
[1:05:26] with like a lot of movie scores, but
[1:05:28] a song by Aaron miss, song of the sun.
[1:05:31] Um that's
[1:05:33] it's I don't know. For me it's like
[1:05:35] really beautiful.
[1:05:36] Um and love like a lot of Sigur Ros in
[1:05:39] there, but that can get tricky cuz a lot
[1:05:40] of people know Sigur Ros.
[1:05:42] >> Um yeah.
[1:05:43] >> Yeah, but their stuff is really
[1:05:45] provocative a lot of the time.
[1:05:49] And then yeah, James Asher and all those
[1:05:52] folks are really great for the beginning
[1:05:53] of a lot of that.
[1:05:56] >> Yeah, the EP is called Focal Point. And
[1:05:58] there's like four songs on it, and all
[1:06:00] of them are just bangers.
[1:06:02] >> Um nice.
[1:06:04] >> [laughter]
[1:06:06] >> Yeah.
[1:06:07] >> And so you said you kind of
[1:06:09] have a service where you create
[1:06:11] playlists for folks, right?
[1:06:13] >> Yeah, yeah. I mean it it you know, for
[1:06:15] [snorts] certification for a lot of
[1:06:17] these programs, holotropic being one of
[1:06:18] them,
[1:06:20] um
[1:06:20] you know, part of part of the
[1:06:21] certification process is putting
[1:06:23] together your own set. And um
[1:06:26] when I was with when I started doing
[1:06:27] neurodynamic and we were all talking
[1:06:30] about doing that, um someone was like,
[1:06:32] "Yeah, I'm going to
[1:06:34] pay somebody on Fiverr to put this
[1:06:36] together for me." And that was where I
[1:06:38] got my start. I was like, "Well, I could
[1:06:40] do that much better than somebody on
[1:06:42] Fiverr." Um
[1:06:44] and it's you know, I've I've been
[1:06:45] branching out and doing more work with
[1:06:47] not only breathwork facilitators, but
[1:06:50] psychedelic um facilitators because
[1:06:53] you know, a lot of people um use Spotify
[1:06:56] for sessions, and I just feel like
[1:06:58] that's so limiting um for your clients,
[1:07:03] especially with certain medicines. I
[1:07:04] mean, there's
[1:07:06] I get it if you're doing a psilocybin
[1:07:07] session and it's you know six plus hours
[1:07:11] that can be really tough but you know
[1:07:13] for things like ketamine cannabis
[1:07:15] assisted breath work
[1:07:17] you know other shorter sessions
[1:07:20] if you're using Spotify in my opinion
[1:07:22] you're just kind of limiting your
[1:07:23] creativity
[1:07:25] what if you want to use a song that like
[1:07:26] the first half of it sucks but you know
[1:07:29] the second half is great or looping
[1:07:31] things or you know I'm mixing out early
[1:07:34] I mean that that mix now that you now
[1:07:36] you can mix within Spotify and it's
[1:07:38] gotten a little bit better
[1:07:40] but it's terrible yeah and plus like
[1:07:42] what if you know what if the what if it
[1:07:43] goes out and also like just from an
[1:07:46] ethical perspective like supporting the
[1:07:48] artists that are supporting your
[1:07:50] facilitation and the the healing of your
[1:07:53] clients
[1:07:54] so yeah I do
[1:07:56] curation and and actual mixing for for
[1:08:00] facilitators I'm actually just finishing
[1:08:02] up
[1:08:03] like a
[1:08:04] working with a cap facilitator
[1:08:07] doing like a six set
[1:08:11] you know kind of
[1:08:13] package for them so you know that we
[1:08:15] talked and and they're brand new and I
[1:08:17] said well how many sessions do you think
[1:08:19] you're going to have with clients and
[1:08:20] they said well probably six is going to
[1:08:22] be like the standard so you know we came
[1:08:25] up with six different piece you know
[1:08:27] two hour sessions for them then it kind
[1:08:30] of goes from really gentle in the
[1:08:32] beginning to you know a little bit more
[1:08:35] uh provocative let's say a little bit
[1:08:36] more energy
[1:08:38] as they're getting used to the the the
[1:08:40] medicine and to support them in in doing
[1:08:42] their work
[1:08:44] >> yeah I typically try not to use Spotify
[1:08:46] do use it every once in a while I
[1:08:48] usually try to purchase the music use
[1:08:51] like mix or some other sort of like DJ
[1:08:53] software so then you can like also run
[1:08:55] high flac files or lossless files but
[1:08:58] the one thing I I noticed like um
[1:09:01] you know I'll put playlist together and
[1:09:03] then Spotify will take just music off,
[1:09:06] right? And then it's like you have a
[1:09:07] playlist and then they just like remove
[1:09:09] a track and then you're just like, well,
[1:09:11] what just happened there, you know? Like
[1:09:12] I really really liked that track and now
[1:09:14] I got to like, you know, go figure out
[1:09:16] what to go use next and they screwed up
[1:09:18] my flow here.
[1:09:19] >> That's right.
[1:09:21] >> Yeah. Yeah. What what what's like a
[1:09:23] hang-up for folks when it comes to music
[1:09:26] in your opinion?
[1:09:28] >> Um
[1:09:29] that's a great question.
[1:09:31] Um
[1:09:32] well, what I find the most with my
[1:09:34] clients, and I love them to death, but
[1:09:36] sometimes they want to like sort of
[1:09:38] shoehorn things in. Like um you you have
[1:09:42] all these songs and maybe they really
[1:09:44] they are really meaningful to you and
[1:09:46] like the work that you've done.
[1:09:48] And
[1:09:50] I have songs that I've been trying to
[1:09:52] find the right set, the right, you know,
[1:09:54] for the right place for them, maybe for
[1:09:56] a year or two. And every time I start a
[1:09:58] new set, I'll like be like, okay, this
[1:10:01] is the time I'm going to use this song.
[1:10:03] And then as the as the the whole set of
[1:10:05] music unfolds, it just doesn't fit. And
[1:10:10] so it's like just being willing to not
[1:10:13] shoehorn things in,
[1:10:15] um just trusting like
[1:10:17] this is just one session for someone.
[1:10:20] That song will find a place somewhere
[1:10:22] further down the road. Um
[1:10:25] I think that's definitely like a
[1:10:28] a sticking point for people. But for
[1:10:30] most of the people that I work with,
[1:10:31] it's just the sheer amount of time that
[1:10:34] one can take,
[1:10:35] um you know, finding the right music and
[1:10:38] being able to put it together. A lot of
[1:10:40] the people that I work with, like they
[1:10:42] they have they have busy practices. They
[1:10:45] have 10 other things that they need to
[1:10:47] be doing and they might not have the
[1:10:48] time or the desire to learn the software
[1:10:53] like you and I have or, you know, they
[1:10:55] they they they're like, oh yeah, I can
[1:10:57] do this myself." And then they realize
[1:10:59] like 6 hours into it that they're only
[1:11:01] like a quarter of the way done.
[1:11:03] >> It's I mean it's a tedious process,
[1:11:05] right?
[1:11:05] >> Absolutely.
[1:11:07] >> You have to listen and then you have to
[1:11:08] think about like how to put all this
[1:11:09] stuff together and like how things flow.
[1:11:12] I mean, I haven't gotten so into like
[1:11:14] mixing key, which I feel like I should
[1:11:16] probably start learning a bit more.
[1:11:18] Um do you do that like all the whole
[1:11:19] >> Yeah, yeah. Um I do I do definitely pay
[1:11:22] attention to that. Um
[1:11:24] uh
[1:11:26] Matt Xavier's book, The Psychedelic DJ,
[1:11:28] was really um helpful
[1:11:31] in that for me in terms of explaining
[1:11:33] how like staying in certain keys can
[1:11:37] help the participant kind of go deeper
[1:11:39] into
[1:11:41] um the material that's coming up um
[1:11:44] because you're you're you know you're
[1:11:45] not shifting the energy like so
[1:11:47] drastically. Um so yeah, I definitely do
[1:11:49] pay attention to that, but it's not like
[1:11:52] something where you know, sometimes a
[1:11:54] key change can be really helpful or
[1:11:57] appropriate, right? So it's just you
[1:11:59] know, it it can definitely help. Um
[1:12:02] yeah, there there's some sort of art to
[1:12:04] it. And to me like coming from the rave
[1:12:06] scene,
[1:12:08] it it's like applying that same process
[1:12:10] that the DJ has where they're working
[1:12:13] with the energy and the room and
[1:12:15] you know, somewhere between you know, a
[1:12:17] few hundred to a few thousand people,
[1:12:20] but then like you know, sort of
[1:12:22] distilling that down into a one-on-one
[1:12:24] experience or you know, a small a small
[1:12:27] group. But it's the same it's the same
[1:12:29] principle. It's like working with the
[1:12:30] energy, like allowing this this bed or
[1:12:33] this boat that can hold the space and
[1:12:36] kind of help help the journey continue
[1:12:39] on.
[1:12:40] >> Yeah.
[1:12:41] >> It's it's a
[1:12:41] >> Thinking about like think think about
[1:12:43] DJing to like a large group. Like do you
[1:12:45] ever do any live mixing to like kind of
[1:12:47] read where the person's at or like
[1:12:48] what's your theory on that? Cuz I know
[1:12:50] sometimes people are like, you know, we
[1:12:52] don't know where somebody is at and so
[1:12:54] we're just going to create like a
[1:12:55] pre-recorded type of mix here and that's
[1:12:58] just the arc of the journey or you know,
[1:13:01] do I kind of know where somebody's at
[1:13:03] and can I help to like impact them in
[1:13:05] that way?
[1:13:07] >> Yeah, another another huge like kind of
[1:13:09] like debate point, you know, like
[1:13:11] um you know, there's there's some like
[1:13:13] in the holotropic world for instance, if
[1:13:16] if the music's really bothering you
[1:13:18] there's there's a good reason for that.
[1:13:20] It's like, yeah, work with it more. Um
[1:13:22] during this recent retreat, one of the
[1:13:24] facilitators um I overheard this the the
[1:13:27] person next to me. Um
[1:13:29] you know, they called the facilitator
[1:13:30] over and they said, "I really hate this
[1:13:33] song." And he said, "Show me how much
[1:13:35] you hate it. Like hate it more. Like,
[1:13:38] you know, make it bigger, right?" So
[1:13:39] sometimes there's something like there's
[1:13:41] some material that's coming up and
[1:13:43] within the holotropic model, we we work
[1:13:45] with that. Whereas in a psychedelic
[1:13:48] space, you know, depending on trauma and
[1:13:50] things like that, it it might be
[1:13:51] appropriate to change or to switch. But
[1:13:54] yeah, I do think there's a there's an
[1:13:55] attunement that's happening um between
[1:13:58] the facilitator and it's a skill.
[1:14:00] Um and yes, I do like to do uh live
[1:14:03] music or live mixing um when I'm working
[1:14:06] with clients.
[1:14:08] Um
[1:14:09] again, just exercising that attunement
[1:14:12] and that trust in the inner healer.
[1:14:14] Um
[1:14:15] and you know, uh
[1:14:17] like I like I mentioned Matt Matt
[1:14:18] Xavier's book has has been really
[1:14:20] helpful for that. Um it really helped to
[1:14:23] give me some confidence as far as like
[1:14:25] oh, other people are doing this or
[1:14:27] wanting to do this too. Like I'm not the
[1:14:29] only crazy person that feels like DJing
[1:14:32] and space holding uh has some overlap to
[1:14:35] it.
[1:14:36] >> [laughter]
[1:14:38] >> Definitely yeah, definitely seems like
[1:14:40] there's a lot of overlap at times so um
[1:14:43] yeah, thinking about music you hate, my
[1:14:45] one teacher would sometimes play polka
[1:14:47] music and it would drive [laughter]
[1:14:48] everybody insane. And it was like
[1:14:51] everybody would just be like, "Please do
[1:14:53] not play polka music, you know?"
[1:14:55] But you're right. I mean, it would
[1:14:57] elicit like strong responses and
[1:14:59] sometimes help to like deepen somebody's
[1:15:01] process
[1:15:03] at times. And then, you know, what And
[1:15:06] like, yeah, you know, it's like if anger
[1:15:08] is coming up, it's like, is that an
[1:15:09] emotion like you typically get in touch
[1:15:11] with and like is it important to
[1:15:13] actually feel that anger right now?
[1:15:15] >> Yeah.
[1:15:16] But
[1:15:17] Is this feeling familiar to you? Yeah.
[1:15:20] >> Yeah.
[1:15:20] >> Uh Stan you know
[1:15:22] >> I like that. Show me how much you hate
[1:15:23] the music.
[1:15:24] >> [laughter]
[1:15:25] >> Uh you know, it's funny like in in
[1:15:27] several of Stan's books, he talks about
[1:15:29] when he talks about music, he talks
[1:15:31] about this song called the Balinese
[1:15:33] Monkey Chant.
[1:15:35] Um and it's such a like uncomfortable
[1:15:38] piece of music for so many people. Like
[1:15:40] one of my mentors was like, I was like,
[1:15:42] "Oh, I'm going to put the Balinese
[1:15:43] Monkey Chant on my certification set."
[1:15:46] And she said, "Don't you don't you
[1:15:47] dare."
[1:15:48] >> [laughter]
[1:15:48] >> And I'm like, "But Stan Stan talked
[1:15:51] about it in the books.
[1:15:52] I wanted to use it."
[1:15:54] >> I mean, I I do get it. Like I think we
[1:15:56] do have to like be a little ethical or
[1:15:59] not a little. We we should be ethical
[1:16:01] and
[1:16:02] you know, think about like what is like
[1:16:04] really challenging for folks, right?
[1:16:06] Like especially when it comes to
[1:16:07] psychedelics, like I have been in those
[1:16:08] spaces where the music was just too much
[1:16:10] and it actually like really elicited
[1:16:13] like really bad trips for people.
[1:16:15] And then like thinking about like what
[1:16:17] is our intention to have
[1:16:19] this like why do I want to use this
[1:16:21] piece? Is it just because I want to use
[1:16:22] it or does it serve a purpose here? Um
[1:16:26] and so, yeah. It's like I think as much
[1:16:28] as like we are kind of like joking
[1:16:30] around here with like bad music,
[1:16:32] especially in breathwork, like it is
[1:16:33] really important to be ethical around
[1:16:36] music placement, think about like trauma
[1:16:38] and safety and and all that.
[1:16:39] >> Absolutely. And intention, like you
[1:16:41] said, you know, there was I remember
[1:16:43] when I was putting my certification set
[1:16:45] together, there was a there was a
[1:16:47] Tibetan like, you know, Tibetan monk
[1:16:51] um like chant that was so meaningful to
[1:16:53] me, and I'm a Tibetan Buddhist
[1:16:55] practitioner of like for the last 20
[1:16:57] years, and you know, I knew that what he
[1:17:00] was talking about, even though it was in
[1:17:02] Tibetan, was this like beautiful like
[1:17:04] prayer for offer- offering whatever
[1:17:07] comes up in the session or in the you
[1:17:10] know, in my experience to the to the
[1:17:13] enlightenment of all beings. And I
[1:17:15] thought,
[1:17:16] "God, there's there's nothing there's no
[1:17:18] nothing more like right on the money
[1:17:20] than than this for for the work that
[1:17:22] we're doing."
[1:17:23] And I had shared that with with uh the
[1:17:25] person helping me, and she said, "Yeah,
[1:17:28] that's the reason you can't use this
[1:17:30] song,
[1:17:31] cuz you're you now you're trying to like
[1:17:32] create something. You're like you're
[1:17:35] trying to guide the experience in some
[1:17:37] certain direction, and that's that's not
[1:17:40] what we do here, right?" So, you know,
[1:17:44] to to your point about intention, yeah,
[1:17:46] just doing not doing is you know, one of
[1:17:49] the ways that I've heard it put.
[1:17:51] >> Yeah, yeah, I think [snorts] that comes
[1:17:52] from Tav.
[1:17:53] >> Yeah, from Tav Sparks.
[1:17:54] >> Yeah, yeah.
[1:17:55] >> Absolutely.
[1:17:57] >> Yeah, when you feel like you want to do
[1:17:58] something, maybe the most appropriate
[1:18:00] thing is to not do something, which uh
[1:18:02] means seems really counterintuitive at
[1:18:04] times, right? But And obviously, there's
[1:18:07] a lot of nuance there, too, right?
[1:18:09] >> Absolutely.
[1:18:11] >> [laughter]
[1:18:12] [gasps]
[1:18:12] >> Yeah.
[1:18:13] Jonathan, well, I know we're over uh our
[1:18:16] hour mark, but this has been super fun.
[1:18:18] Um and really enjoyed the conversation.
[1:18:21] >> Likewise.
[1:18:22] >> Yeah, so any kind of closing thoughts,
[1:18:24] anything that's still kind of like
[1:18:25] percolating that wants to be shared with
[1:18:28] the the audience?
[1:18:29] >> Hm, no, I think we covered so much. Um I
[1:18:32] would just say, you know,
[1:18:34] you and I touched on it a while ago, and
[1:18:37] I've seen it so many times is the the
[1:18:40] skepticism
[1:18:42] especially with people experience with
[1:18:44] psychedelics for the power and
[1:18:47] profundity of the breath. And look, like
[1:18:49] I've talked about my own medicine
[1:18:51] experiences here like I'm no, you know,
[1:18:53] like
[1:18:55] I'm no stranger to psychedelics either,
[1:18:57] but
[1:18:58] don't don't write off how impactful the
[1:19:01] breath can be not only as
[1:19:05] a support for your own integration and
[1:19:07] preparation, but like just as its own
[1:19:09] vehicle into exploring these spaces and
[1:19:13] um
[1:19:14] it's it's one of the it's one of my joys
[1:19:16] in life actually is like having that
[1:19:18] person go through their first experience
[1:19:20] when they're like or just breathing how
[1:19:23] intense is this going to be and then
[1:19:24] like seeing them on the other side with
[1:19:26] that like whoa, what was that? You know,
[1:19:29] yeah, yeah, so
[1:19:32] you know, that would I guess that would
[1:19:33] be my parting gift, you know, is just
[1:19:35] like don't write it off until you tried
[1:19:36] it.
[1:19:38] >> I think it's an important reminder.
[1:19:39] Yeah, cuz I think it is easy to write
[1:19:41] off and
[1:19:43] you know, and again like not always I
[1:19:45] guess sitting there and having to rate
[1:19:46] the quality of the catharsis and
[1:19:48] everything like that because some of the
[1:19:50] profound experiences are also like I
[1:19:52] remember like after the pandemic, you
[1:19:54] know, we weren't able to like do this in
[1:19:56] person. I was like, oh man, I have so
[1:19:58] much stuff to release and like
[1:20:01] nothing came up and I was like getting
[1:20:04] really pissed and I'm like I thought
[1:20:05] this is going to be like so like I
[1:20:07] thought I was just going to let all this
[1:20:08] like emotion out and I fell asleep.
[1:20:11] >> Mhm.
[1:20:12] >> And then I realized I was like
[1:20:14] we've just been in a heightened state
[1:20:16] for the past 2 years. Nervous systems
[1:20:18] are just completely shot.
[1:20:20] I think I actually just needed to sleep,
[1:20:22] you know, and like and I needed that
[1:20:24] time to rest and that's also really
[1:20:27] beneficial.
[1:20:28] >> Very valuable.
[1:20:30] >> Yeah, didn't need to be anything really
[1:20:31] crazy. We were just living crazy 2
[1:20:33] years, you know? It's like
[1:20:35] >> That's right. That's right. Um yeah, it
[1:20:37] it goes back to like that that surrender
[1:20:41] and that permission, right? Like um
[1:20:44] you know, often often the way that I
[1:20:46] describe breathwork in comparison to
[1:20:48] like say psychedelics is that feeling
[1:20:50] that I would get
[1:20:52] um trying to go off the high dive as a
[1:20:55] kid. You're climbing the ladder and the
[1:20:57] pit in the stomach starts to like kind
[1:20:59] of like get bigger and then you're
[1:21:01] standing on the on the diving board
[1:21:03] being like, "Am I really going to do
[1:21:05] this?"
[1:21:06] And with psychedelics, like there's kind
[1:21:08] of like a hand that's pushing you off
[1:21:10] the edge. There's no choice but to like
[1:21:12] kind of try to let go. With breathwork,
[1:21:15] you it's more of a skill. It's like I
[1:21:18] I'm the one that has to jump off.
[1:21:19] There's nobody helping me here. Um
[1:21:22] and so yeah, just just learning to to to
[1:21:25] surrender and and to give yourself
[1:21:27] permission to to go into that experience
[1:21:30] and um
[1:21:32] yeah, sometimes we fall asleep, you
[1:21:33] know, like you said and and to your
[1:21:35] point, it's like, "Man, if you can fall
[1:21:37] asleep in that room with that music and
[1:21:39] people, you know, go going into their
[1:21:41] own processes, then the body probably
[1:21:43] really needed it." You know, and and
[1:21:46] every once in a while we have these like
[1:21:47] yogic sleep type experiences and
[1:21:50] sometimes people are like upset cuz they
[1:21:52] paid a lot of money for a workshop and
[1:21:55] then, you know, I I remember somebody
[1:21:57] saying, "You You know how many years
[1:21:59] yogis like train to get into those
[1:22:01] states? [laughter] Like,
[1:22:03] you did it in like one afternoon. That's
[1:22:05] great, you know?"
[1:22:09] >> Remember, yeah, healing rest is also
[1:22:11] healing,
[1:22:12] >> That's right.
[1:22:13] >> doesn't always need to be big.
[1:22:15] >> That's right.
[1:22:16] >> Where can people find you?
[1:22:18] >> Um my website is pathwaays to
[1:22:20] integration.com.
[1:22:22] Um I'm pathwaays to integration on
[1:22:24] social media platforms,
[1:22:27] YouTube, Um I have a school site Uh um
[1:22:30] that's school.com {slash} pathways
[1:22:33] integration. It's free to join. We do
[1:22:35] breath work online there, and there's a
[1:22:37] lot of recorded practices. And then you
[1:22:39] mentioned my my podcast at the top of
[1:22:41] the hour,
[1:22:42] um the vital point pathways integration.
[1:22:44] So, wherever you find your podcast.
[1:22:46] >> Sweet. [snorts] Well, thank you,
[1:22:47] Jonathan. Thank you, everybody, for
[1:22:49] tuning in and hanging out. Um and then
[1:22:52] just some last quick reminders here on
[1:22:54] our end at psychedelics today before we
[1:22:55] wrap up. Um I think we do have like
[1:22:58] another couple seats left for our
[1:23:00] upcoming advanced shadow work and
[1:23:02] psychedelic integration course. So, if
[1:23:03] you're interested in digging into the
[1:23:04] shadow, um definitely check that out
[1:23:06] psychedeliceducationcenter.com.
[1:23:09] Um and then we are also putting on a
[1:23:11] conference in Breckenridge in a few
[1:23:12] weeks. So, if you all want to come out
[1:23:15] to our vital conference, there will be
[1:23:16] some of our vital alum presenting, some
[1:23:18] other presenters. It'll be a small
[1:23:20] little intimate gathering, really great
[1:23:22] networking. I'm more of a fan of the
[1:23:24] small intimate conferences than these
[1:23:26] big super conferences where it's
[1:23:28] overwhelming. So, if you want to come
[1:23:30] out, say hi, come up to a beautiful
[1:23:32] Breckenridge. I think it's actually
[1:23:33] starting to snow here right now um up in
[1:23:36] the high Rockies. So, you can check that
[1:23:37] out at psychedelics today.com. So,
[1:23:40] thanks everybody for tuning in.
[1:23:41] Jonathan, thank you again for the fun
[1:23:42] conversation. Really enjoyed it.
[1:23:44] >> Yeah, thanks for having me.
[1:23:46] >> Yeah, take care, everybody.
[1:23:50] >> [music]
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