Transcript
[0:01] This episode of the Oprah podcast is
[0:03] presented by our partner Geico.
[0:06] Statistics say chances are very very
[0:09] very high that there is somebody at work
[0:13] who is driving you crazy. You're going
[0:15] to spend 90,000 hours of your life at
[0:18] work. And what determines if somebody
[0:20] loves or enjoys their job is not often
[0:23] the job description. It's often the
[0:25] people that they have to work with. Some
[0:26] people are certified crazy and you
[0:28] cannot work with everybody. So in your
[0:30] research, one of the things you found, I
[0:32] heard was that nearly half of Americans
[0:35] quit their jobs really because of their
[0:37] boss. And you suggest what you call an
[0:41] expectations [music]
[0:42] detox. I love this so much because I've
[0:44] done this many times in my life. This is
[0:47] so key. Like stop acting so shocked when
[0:50] people have a bad attitude or [music]
[0:52] don't have the same preferences as you.
[0:54] >> That right there, Ryan, that's going to
[0:56] help a lot of people.
[0:59] Hi everybody and welcome to the Oprah
[1:01] podcast and I thank you for joining us
[1:03] here. I'm I'm really so excited for you
[1:06] to meet my guest today because if you're
[1:08] listening or watching us and you are a
[1:10] working person, statistics say that the
[1:14] chances are very very very very high
[1:17] like 80% high that there is somebody at
[1:21] work who is driving you crazy. And I I
[1:24] know just hearing me say that that
[1:26] person just popped in your head right
[1:27] now. And maybe they have a toxic
[1:30] personality or they take credit for your
[1:32] ideas or they're always just either
[1:35] snarky, condescending or just annoying
[1:39] or you found out that they talk stuff
[1:42] about you behind your back or they don't
[1:44] pull their own weight. It is frustrating
[1:47] and it is so annoying. And I know
[1:49] because I have dealt with all kinds of
[1:52] working relationships from Fortune 100
[1:55] boardrooms to professional locker rooms.
[1:57] Ryan Leak is a sought-after speaker and
[2:00] a best-selling author and his latest
[2:03] book, How to Work with Complicated
[2:07] People. Strategies, not just talking
[2:10] about it, but strategies for effective
[2:12] collaboration with nearly anyone. offers
[2:15] it offers a better way to this is going
[2:17] to help you start setting boundaries
[2:19] like actually give you the words to set
[2:21] boundaries to communicate and also to
[2:24] detox at work cuz a lot of people just
[2:26] take it all home right and even if you
[2:29] think you're surrounded by idiots this
[2:32] book this this book will work work for
[2:35] you welcome to the podcast
[2:37] >> Oprah it is an absolute pleasure to be
[2:39] here
[2:39] >> what was going on in your own life that
[2:41] you knew you had to write this
[2:42] >> oh well I I felt bad for my team that
[2:45] has to work with me
[2:47] >> and you know traveling and speaking and
[2:50] working with companies all around the
[2:51] world and just having a phone and being
[2:53] on social media I noticed a couple of
[2:56] things were happening in culture that I
[2:58] thought we needed some help with. Number
[3:00] one, uh, I started to notice that we
[3:03] were given, especially over the last
[3:05] decade, I would say, more polarizing
[3:08] subjects than ever before without the
[3:11] requisite emotional tools to actually
[3:13] have discussions around these subjects.
[3:15] And so you started to see, especially
[3:17] online, subjects moving from us having a
[3:20] disagreement about something and it
[3:21] started to move into disrespect. And so
[3:24] you saw this in civility,
[3:25] >> disrespect, disregard, name. Yeah. just
[3:30] it turned into turns into a thing
[3:32] >> 100%. I mean I think we've all had that
[3:34] moment where we were just watching it
[3:36] and going it's getting worse and so I
[3:40] think I've worked with a company they
[3:42] have this framework where they say hey
[3:43] this is how we have highstakes
[3:45] conversations we have things that we
[3:47] will die for we have things that we will
[3:49] defend and we have things that we will
[3:51] discuss. Well I started to see that a
[3:54] lot of the subjects that we were given
[3:55] it was all hills to die on. Yes. every
[3:58] comment section. It's like I got to have
[3:59] a take on this particular subject. It's
[4:02] like I don't think you have to have a
[4:03] take on every single subject. And so I
[4:05] wrote this book to say, hey, how can we
[4:07] get off the hill
[4:09] >> and quit trying to die on the hill and
[4:11] how can we have a cup of coffee and and
[4:13] have a discussion? So that that was the
[4:14] first thing that was going on. And the
[4:16] second thing is what we've discovered in
[4:18] research is that well, you're going to
[4:20] spend 90,000 hours of your life at work.
[4:23] 90,000 hours of your life is going to be
[4:26] at work. And what determines if somebody
[4:29] loves or enjoys their job is not often
[4:32] the job description. It's often the
[4:34] people that they have to work with. So
[4:35] we said, "Hey, if we could give a
[4:37] playbook to people to do the people part
[4:40] of their job, well then maybe they could
[4:41] enjoy what is a significant portion of
[4:44] the
[4:44] >> Well, when I saw this title, how to work
[4:46] with complicated people."
[4:47] >> Yeah.
[4:48] >> Great title, by the way.
[4:49] >> Thank you.
[4:49] >> It's a New York Times bestseller.
[4:51] >> It is.
[4:51] >> And deserves to be.
[4:53] >> Uh cuz it's clearly striking a nerve.
[4:55] >> Yeah. And I know firsthand that nearly
[4:59] all work-related problems are actually
[5:02] people problems
[5:03] >> trying to be worked out at work. Is that
[5:07] what you've also discovered?
[5:08] >> Absolutely.
[5:09] >> Yes.
[5:09] >> Yeah. You you see a lot of people who
[5:12] are trying to uh navigate change, trying
[5:16] to navigate AI, trying to navigate
[5:18] technology changes all throughout all
[5:20] kinds of industries. But at the end of
[5:22] the day, they're people problems. And
[5:24] oftentimes you're going to be sitting
[5:25] across from somebody who thinks
[5:27] differently than you, works differently
[5:29] than you, is from a different generation
[5:30] than you. And we all have to have a
[5:32] great plan for what we're going to do
[5:34] when we're sitting across from.
[5:35] >> And I like the fact that you use Ryan
[5:37] the word complicated. You could have
[5:38] said an How to work with
[5:41] How to work with jerks.
[5:43] >> Yeah. [laughter]
[5:44] >> How to work with Okay. A lot of words.
[5:47] But anyway, so why did you choose the
[5:49] word complicated? Well, it was a word
[5:52] that came up a lot in our research.
[5:54] Whenever I would be sitting across from
[5:56] somebody and say, "So, tell me about
[5:57] this person that you're having a
[5:58] challenge with." They would say, "Well,
[6:00] they're not they're not bad. They're
[6:03] well, they're complicated." And so, it
[6:06] was some somebody that was had patterns
[6:09] and had perspectives that just didn't
[6:11] vibe well with theirs and they couldn't
[6:14] find a word to use. And I said, "Is it
[6:15] is it complicated?" Yeah, it's it is it
[6:18] is very complicated because you know
[6:20] it's I don't want to offend them but I
[6:22] also want to be honest. The times have
[6:24] changed. Precoid, postcoid, are we
[6:26] working virtually? Are we working in
[6:28] person? And so what we kept finding is
[6:30] that it it kept being more and more
[6:32] complicated.
[6:33] >> Now this is the thing. You start the
[6:34] book by saying when we're dealing with
[6:35] difficult people, the first person you
[6:37] need to look at is yourself. Even though
[6:39] nobody wants to hear that cuz they're
[6:41] like this isn't my problem. This is you.
[6:43] And you write, "We are all weird. We are
[6:46] all odd, irritating, or baffling to
[6:49] someone else."
[6:50] >> Yeah.
[6:50] >> So I do people have a hard time with
[6:53] this with this start with yourself that
[6:56] do people have a hard time when you say,
[6:58] "Let let's first take a look at you."
[6:59] >> Yeah.
[7:00] >> Why are you having this problem?
[7:02] >> Yeah. Well, it's it's hard to look in
[7:03] the mirror because when you think about
[7:05] somebody that when if we start talking
[7:07] about boundaries, if we start talking
[7:09] about somebody that needs to be
[7:10] challenged, if we start talking about
[7:11] somebody that needs correction, like we
[7:14] all have people in our life that we go,
[7:15] they shouldn't have even gotten this
[7:17] job, they should never get a microphone,
[7:19] they need to get their act together. The
[7:21] problem is none of us think we're the
[7:23] person,
[7:23] >> right?
[7:23] >> We think it's always somebody else. So
[7:26] by starting with yourself, you are
[7:28] automatically on first base with working
[7:30] with complicated people. Because if I
[7:33] start with myself and go, you know what,
[7:34] on the other side of me, I bet it's not
[7:37] as easy and as ideal as I think it is.
[7:40] If I start with, well, maybe on the
[7:42] other side of me, it's a little
[7:43] complicated. Well, then I'm going to
[7:45] have grace for your complexities. But if
[7:47] I think I'm the hero of my own story.
[7:50] [laughter]
[7:50] >> Yeah. But what if I know that I can be
[7:53] challenging and I know that I can I can
[7:55] be intimidating and I know all those
[7:57] things.
[7:58] >> Yeah.
[7:58] >> But I just want to get the job done.
[8:00] >> Yeah.
[8:00] >> And don't want to have to deal with your
[8:03] complication. So what is the best
[8:05] strategy when you're dealing with
[8:07] somebody who doesn't understand that?
[8:09] >> Well, at some point you we all have we
[8:11] all got different strategies for how
[8:13] we're going to deal with that.
[8:13] >> You say most people use four strategies
[8:15] to deal with a complicated person. What
[8:16] are they and what is the one that works?
[8:18] So the first one you can do is avoid
[8:20] them, right? Yeah. Except
[8:21] >> you can't.
[8:22] >> You can't. I I found that complicated
[8:24] people are unavoidable.
[8:25] >> Yes.
[8:26] >> Okay. As much as you try, you can do
[8:27] everything in your power.
[8:28] >> You want to run into them. You have to
[8:30] deal with them. It's they will find you.
[8:31] Okay.
[8:32] >> Every single time.
[8:32] >> Okay.
[8:33] >> Second thing you can do is you can try
[8:34] and change them.
[8:35] >> You cannot.
[8:35] >> Which good luck. But most people to do
[8:37] that, you have to twist their arm.
[8:39] >> And nobody likes having their arm
[8:40] twisted. So good luck trying to change
[8:43] them.
[8:43] >> You may be able to change some behavior.
[8:46] >> You can inspire it.
[8:47] >> Yeah. You can inspire it.
[8:49] >> You can inspire it. But I mean, imagine
[8:51] if if somebody walked up to you and
[8:52] said, "Hey, I'm really looking forward
[8:54] to changing you soon." You'd be like,
[8:55] "What? You're not changing me?" Like,
[8:57] it's it's nobody even really wants to be
[8:59] changed, but they also want to try.
[9:01] >> The fact [clears throat] that you you
[9:02] just mentioned that reminds me of the
[9:04] year we every year on the Oprah show, we
[9:06] always considered ourselves the Oprah
[9:07] show, which ended 15 years ago. So, I'm
[9:09] not trying to live in the past, but for
[9:11] 25 years I did the show and every year
[9:14] our goal was to do a better job the next
[9:17] year than we did before. I never
[9:18] considered anybody else competition. We
[9:20] were competing with ourselves. And one
[9:22] year and we would have themes for every
[9:24] year. And one year because people used
[9:26] to come up to me and say, "Oh, I watched
[9:27] this show. It changed my life. It
[9:28] changed my life. This show changed my
[9:30] life. You changed my life. This So I
[9:31] said, "Oh, let's call this year Change
[9:34] Your Life TV."
[9:35] >> Yeah.
[9:35] >> That's what we're talking about. This is
[9:36] the year to change your life. We'll be
[9:38] right back.
[9:39] >> The biggest backlash ever cuz people
[9:42] said, "How dare you tell me that you
[9:45] changed my life."
[9:46] >> Wow.
[9:47] >> So, this is what I learned from that.
[9:49] Don't tell nobody you changed your life.
[9:51] >> Let them tell you that you changed your
[9:53] life. It's not my job to tell you I'm
[9:55] going to change your life. Nobody wants
[9:56] to be changed or to think that that's
[9:58] your goal is to change them.
[10:00] >> So,
[10:00] >> well, when we when we use that idea of
[10:02] like the world would be a better place
[10:04] if everybody else just changed, it's a
[10:06] terrible mantra to live by. Yeah, you
[10:07] could try. I just don't think it's going
[10:09] to help you actually grow.
[10:11] >> The third option is you could cancel
[10:12] them.
[10:13] >> And if you cancel them, that means well
[10:15] I
[10:16] >> I'm just going to cut you off.
[10:17] >> Yeah,
[10:17] >> that's what you could do with a
[10:18] complicated person.
[10:19] >> Yeah.
[10:20] >> The problem with cancellation is this.
[10:22] >> Cancellation and avoidance is sort of
[10:23] the same thing, right?
[10:24] >> Well, cancellation is where I say I'm
[10:27] done with you altogether.
[10:29] >> Yeah.
[10:30] >> The problem with cancellation is it's
[10:33] bad math because none of us want to be
[10:35] on the other side of being canceled. In
[10:36] fact, if if I cut somebody off, I have
[10:39] all the rights to do that. But if
[10:41] somebody cuts me off, I say, "Whoa,
[10:42] whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I want my day in
[10:44] court." I I want to be able to say, "No,
[10:46] no, you misread my email. That's not
[10:47] what I meant in that text message." No,
[10:49] you you want a second chance, which is
[10:51] why the fourth strategy works, which is
[10:53] you could try and understand them.
[10:55] Understanding means I'm going to move
[10:57] towards this complicated person with
[10:58] curiosity instead of judgment. The
[11:01] reason that this is important is because
[11:03] each and every one of us has all had a
[11:06] moment in our life where we were
[11:07] misunderstood. And in that moment, all
[11:09] we did, all we wanted was somebody to
[11:12] ask one more question to be just a
[11:14] little bit more curious. And so people
[11:16] have this idea that, oh, I'm going to
[11:17] move away from complicated people. But
[11:19] I'm like, actually, you'd be surprised
[11:20] what happens when you move towards them.
[11:22] You might actually learn something new
[11:23] about this person that you didn't know
[11:25] before. And I've learned time and time
[11:27] again. somebody that used to be very
[11:29] very complicated in my world. The more I
[11:31] actually got to know them, they actually
[11:33] just became a name and it wasn't
[11:35] complicated.
[11:36] >> Our listeners [music]
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[13:14] >> You say with is the key word in this
[13:17] title of your book. Why? Well, cuz how
[13:19] to work with screams partnership. It
[13:23] immediately tells you, hey, this person
[13:26] that I have sitting across from me is
[13:28] not my enemy. I'm working with We're all
[13:31] on the same team. I'm not working
[13:34] against you. I'm not trying to work
[13:35] around you. I'm trying to work with you.
[13:38] It it it makes us have a collaboration
[13:41] mindset.
[13:42] >> Well, I love on page 54 when you say
[13:44] when we view people as complicated, it's
[13:47] often because they don't meet our
[13:49] expectations. Something about them,
[13:51] their personality, their communication
[13:52] style, their manners, their leadership,
[13:57] their social skills, their behavior
[13:59] doesn't match our inner definition of
[14:01] what is right or normal. and you suggest
[14:04] what you call an expectations detox. I
[14:08] love this so much because I've done this
[14:11] many times in my life. Please share
[14:12] this.
[14:13] >> Yeah. So, an expectations detox is where
[14:16] you begin to look at the world around
[14:18] you and begin to ask yourself the
[14:19] question, what am I expecting of the
[14:21] people around me? Do I expect them to
[14:23] have identical priorities? Do I expect
[14:25] them to be mind readers? Do I expect
[14:27] them to
[14:27] >> This is so key change instantly. It's
[14:30] like, no, it's what we discovered in our
[14:32] research is we kept hearing the same
[14:34] phrase over and over and over again. And
[14:36] it was the phrase, "I can't believe I
[14:39] can't believe they would hit reply all.
[14:41] I can't believe they would say that in
[14:42] front of my boss. I can't believe my
[14:44] husband doesn't know where the kids
[14:46] shoes are. I can't believe my in-laws
[14:47] would say that. I can't believe I can't
[14:49] believe I can't believe." We just came
[14:51] alongside and said, "I think you should
[14:52] start believing them." Somebody
[14:54] >> Yeah. Yeah,
[14:55] >> that you know very well said if someone
[14:57] shows you who they are,
[14:59] >> believe them.
[15:00] >> Believe them.
[15:01] >> All right, bring up Maya Angelou here.
[15:03] >> So, we we said, "Hey, if if you can
[15:05] begin to taper your expectations to be
[15:08] able to say, hey, I'm actually I
[15:10] actually see complicated coming a mile
[15:12] away. In fact, it's like you've worked
[15:14] with these people for a very, very long
[15:16] time. You've been married to this
[15:17] person. You've dated this person for a
[15:18] long time." I'm like, you stop acting so
[15:20] shocked when people have a bad attitude
[15:23] or or don't have the same preferences as
[15:26] you. It's like, no, I I've actually
[15:27] tapered my expectations. And if you can
[15:30] expect complicated and see it coming a
[15:32] mile away, then you can prepare for
[15:34] complication.
[15:34] >> Well, and I think that works in the
[15:36] opposite in the opposite too. I recently
[15:38] had a conversation with someone, a
[15:41] complicated conversation in a
[15:43] complicated relationship where I was
[15:46] saying to the person, tell me, I had
[15:49] read your book. I said, so tell me what
[15:52] your expectations are because the reason
[15:55] why this isn't working is because you
[15:57] have an expectation of me that I don't
[16:00] think I'm actually willing to fulfill.
[16:03] And then the person said, "Oh, I don't
[16:05] have any expectations." And I said, "And
[16:07] you also apparently have a lack of
[16:09] self-awareness because you actually do
[16:11] have multiple expectations that you're
[16:14] putting on me and expecting me to know
[16:16] what those expectations are and to
[16:19] fulfill them."
[16:20] >> Yeah.
[16:20] >> So it works it works the opposite. Yeah.
[16:22] >> Totally.
[16:23] >> Because I think so many times people are
[16:24] disappointed in people because they
[16:27] don't fulfill their expectations, but
[16:29] they're not even clear about what those
[16:30] expectations are.
[16:32] >> Absolutely. And I would say that most
[16:33] people's expectations
[16:36] are silent. Yes. In fact, I I think that
[16:39] most of us walk around the world and we
[16:42] expect people to be two things they
[16:43] rarely are. Simple imperfect. Except
[16:47] nobody is that. In fact, the only
[16:49] options you have for working with people
[16:51] on this planet are complicated people.
[16:54] In fact, some people will say, you know,
[16:56] I'll say, "Hey, I wrote a book called
[16:57] How to Work with Complicated People."
[16:58] And this is what happens every single
[17:00] time. They look in the sky and they go,
[17:02] "I need that book." [laughter]
[17:05] And they and they see somebody. They see
[17:07] a person. They don't even have a
[17:08] definition of what complicated is. They
[17:10] just they just go, "Oh, I I I see I see
[17:12] that person." But nobody nobody looks up
[17:14] and goes, "M, somebody needs that book
[17:17] for me."
[17:17] >> Yeah.
[17:18] >> And I think that's where the growth is
[17:20] really found.
[17:21] >> Okay. So, we have all dealt with this.
[17:23] You get that email.
[17:24] >> That's right.
[17:25] >> And sends you over the edge and and or
[17:27] you get a certain look from your boss or
[17:28] colleague. Yeah.
[17:30] >> And you're like, "What was that all
[17:31] about? What is she really trying to
[17:33] say?" And you start spiraling when
[17:35] somebody triggers you.
[17:37] >> What should we do in that moment?
[17:39] >> Well, one, you you have full permission
[17:41] to to call a timeout. I I think number
[17:43] one, you you got to take a deep breath.
[17:45] What's actually happening when we get
[17:47] triggered is our nervous system is out
[17:48] of whack.
[17:49] >> And you are not going to outthink a
[17:52] triggered body. You you you have to
[17:56] >> take a deep breath. The second thing I
[17:57] think you should do is you should really
[17:59] name what's happening
[18:01] >> because when you give a name to your
[18:04] trigger, it actually loses its power.
[18:06] All of us have different triggers. It
[18:07] could be professional embarrassment. It
[18:09] could be insecurity about how we look.
[18:11] It could be a compliment that somebody
[18:12] else got that we wish they had given us.
[18:15] It could be somebody else getting
[18:16] promoted. So being able to name that
[18:18] thing helps you step outside of it,
[18:20] right? Because you're talking about it
[18:22] and now it's
[18:23] >> So shouldn't you in that moment say,
[18:24] "What just happened here? Why? Why? Why?
[18:26] Why? Why did that trigger me? Why am I
[18:27] Why am I feeling this way? That's the
[18:29] first question you should say. Why am I
[18:31] feeling this way? Oh, most people are
[18:33] going to say, "Oh, because
[18:34] >> he or she pissed me off." Yes.
[18:36] >> Okay. And then the question should be,
[18:38] but why did it piss me off? What is
[18:40] really going on underneath the surface?
[18:42] I feel
[18:44] >> humiliated or I feel embarrassed or I
[18:47] feel, you know, that
[18:48] >> I feel shame.
[18:49] >> I feel shame. Those are the questions
[18:51] you should be asking yourself.
[18:52] >> Absolutely. And then from there, you
[18:54] want to go, how much power am I going to
[18:56] let this have over the rest of my day,
[18:58] my week, my life?
[19:00] >> Cuz once we name it and we look at it,
[19:01] we're going to go, am I going to let
[19:02] Keith like determine the rest of my
[19:05] life?
[19:06] >> I'm sure not going to let Keith, he's
[19:07] behind the camera. I'm sure not going to
[19:08] let Keith This is the thing I learned so
[19:11] many years ago. I've been I've been
[19:12] around so long, but that I have so many
[19:15] stories, but I remember I was holding a
[19:17] grudge against somebody and I saw them.
[19:20] them. I was watch walking down Michigan
[19:21] Avenue in Chicago.
[19:22] >> Wow.
[19:23] >> And that a person was on the other side
[19:25] of the street and they were like just
[19:27] swinging their bag.
[19:28] >> Living life.
[19:29] >> Living life. Turned, went into the
[19:32] Tiffany store. The Tiffany store
[19:34] >> spending money.
[19:35] >> Spending money. And I'm like, I'm
[19:38] walking around here mad. Thinking that
[19:40] person's also walking around mad,
[19:42] feeling my whatever, whatever, and
[19:44] realize they're happy. They've gone on
[19:46] with their lives. Yeah. The thing that's
[19:48] triggered you from an email or a text
[19:50] message that somebody said they sent to
[19:52] you at 7:18 a.m.
[19:55] >> and now it's 4:33 in the afternoon and
[20:00] you're still thinking about it. Thinking
[20:01] about it, thinking about They're gone
[20:02] on. They're swinging their pocky book.
[20:04] >> That's right.
[20:04] >> Going into Tiffany's.
[20:05] >> Yeah. They're not thinking about you.
[20:06] >> They're not thinking about you.
[20:07] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[20:08] >> The last thing I would say about
[20:09] whenever we find ourselves being
[20:11] triggered, we have to be the adults in
[20:13] the room.
[20:14] We have to be the adults in the room
[20:16] because there is a what psychologists
[20:18] would call age regression. It's where
[20:20] you and I turn into eight and nine year
[20:22] olds.
[20:22] >> That's right. You turn into however old
[20:24] you were when you first when that
[20:25] trigger
[20:26] >> Yep.
[20:27] >> first was implanted in the back of your
[20:30] [clears throat] brain.
[20:31] >> Absolutely.
[20:31] >> Yeah. And whatever that thing is.
[20:33] >> And it happens to me all the time. You
[20:34] know, my I turned 9 years old really
[20:37] fast because when I was 9 years old, my
[20:40] father unfortunately suffered a stroke.
[20:42] our household income was cut in half.
[20:44] And I remember going to my mother and
[20:46] just being like, I don't want to be a
[20:48] burden to my mom who now has to take
[20:50] care of my dad and my two older
[20:51] brothers. That day I became wildly
[20:55] independent. That day I became an
[20:57] entrepreneur. That little boy is what
[20:59] allows me to do what I do now.
[21:01] >> Right? But also being that independent
[21:05] whenever I feel triggered, whenever I
[21:07] feel disrespected, where my age
[21:10] regression really pops in is I go, I
[21:13] don't need you. I don't need you. I
[21:16] don't if a client starts talking crazy
[21:17] to me, I go, I don't need to be here. I
[21:19] I I that's my age aggression.
[21:21] >> You immediately go to that.
[21:22] >> I immediately go back to I don't need
[21:24] nobody,
[21:26] >> but I do need people. Yeah. And
[21:27] >> so if you're if you're
[21:29] >> put that that right there, Ryan, that's
[21:31] going to help a lot of people. That's
[21:32] going to help a lot of people.
[21:34] >> Yeah. I I would just encourage people if
[21:36] you're specific that specific example is
[21:38] going to help a lot of people because a
[21:39] lot of people immediately go into that.
[21:40] Well, okay then. I don't want to have
[21:42] anything to do with you either. Yeah.
[21:43] That thing when you really do.
[21:45] >> Yeah. I mean, you you be the adult in
[21:48] the room. If if you're going to have an
[21:50] adult conversation, make sure the adult
[21:52] version of you is in the room when it
[21:54] happens because now you you've just
[21:56] decided I realize there's some things
[21:58] that happened in my childhood that I
[21:59] wish didn't.
[22:01] But I'm adult Ryan now, so I can have an
[22:04] adult conversation.
[22:05] >> Yes. And so people use this now. Trigger
[22:08] has become the word I just got
[22:10] triggered. I just got triggered. I just
[22:12] got triggered. But not willing to
[22:14] examine what does that really mean?
[22:16] Yeah. Yeah,
[22:16] >> cuz people people assume, I think when
[22:19] I've heard people use it, you know, so
[22:21] casually that way, oh, that person had
[22:24] no right to trigger me or how dare they
[22:27] trigger me.
[22:28] >> Yeah.
[22:29] >> Yeah. When the trigger is showing up for
[22:31] actually your benefit to examine and to
[22:34] actually become more of an adult.
[22:35] >> Yeah. It's an opportunity.
[22:37] >> It's an opportunity if you let it.
[22:38] >> Yeah.
[22:39] >> So, some of our listeners have questions
[22:40] for you. Brian is an eighth grade
[22:42] teacher in Michigan and Brian is joining
[22:44] us. Hi Brian.
[22:46] >> What's up Brian?
[22:47] >> From the class trip to Washington DC,
[22:50] the classic eighth grade trip to DC. God
[22:52] bless you.
[22:53] >> That's right. Thank you. We are having a
[22:55] great time here. We are leaving tomorrow
[22:57] night, but we are just running through
[22:59] the capital for the first time with
[23:01] these kids and it couldn't be more of a
[23:02] blast as
[23:03] >> Oh, that's great. What's going on with
[23:04] you at work?
[23:06] >> So, I am absolutely having a
[23:09] generational divide at my work. So, for
[23:12] context, I'm 26 years old. It is my
[23:14] first year teaching and I am
[23:16] >> Congratulations. I think that's great
[23:18] that you chose that profession. That's
[23:19] great.
[23:20] >> Thank you. It's the best choice for me
[23:22] and we are nearing the end of year one.
[23:24] And for reference, I am one of the few
[23:26] teachers in my 20s. The other four are
[23:29] the only others in their 20s. The
[23:31] average age is probably closer to 50.
[23:33] And some of my colleagues actually were
[23:35] my eighth grade teachers, which is
[23:37] ironic.
[23:38] >> Crazy. And you know, we I'm so honored
[23:41] and grateful to be doing what I'm doing
[23:44] with the people that I'm with and
[23:46] especially with the students. And we all
[23:49] bring so much value to the table. I
[23:51] think that my older colleagues bring
[23:52] wisdom and experience because they've
[23:54] done this a few times. And the younger
[23:56] teachers bring innovation and some new
[23:59] ideas, but we also have differences in
[24:02] how we approach education and some of
[24:04] our principles. And my question as I'm
[24:08] navigating this relationship with all my
[24:11] colleagues is how do we allow the
[24:14] younger workforce members to earn a seat
[24:17] at the professional table to advocate
[24:20] for their ideas and their approaches
[24:22] >> while also honoring the wisdom and
[24:25] experience of our colleagues and
[24:27] inviting them to be a part of that
[24:28] collaboration especially when we're
[24:30] trying to do what's best for the kids at
[24:32] the end of the day.
[24:33] >> That's awesome. Well, Brian, I think the
[24:34] word you just used is is already going
[24:37] to be huge for you, which is, you know,
[24:38] you're just already honoring of the
[24:40] older generation, which I think is going
[24:42] to earn you some influence. The other
[24:45] thing that's an interesting paradox that
[24:47] I think all of us have to navigate in
[24:48] the workforce is we get to where we are
[24:51] by having knowledge and competence. But
[24:54] what comes with knowledge and competence
[24:56] is uh sometimes arrogance. And so you
[25:00] actually need humility to come in there.
[25:02] And so it's interesting. You can
[25:04] sometimes feel this pressure to be a
[25:06] know-it-all. I I love this idea of being
[25:08] a know-it- which means there's some
[25:10] things that I know, but I'm also curious
[25:13] about a lot of other things. Here's the
[25:14] funny thing. You
[25:16] >> I love that. I'm a know it some.
[25:17] >> I'm a knowit some. Here's an interesting
[25:19] paradox about it is when when you're a
[25:21] know-it-all, like when you're really
[25:22] really smart, like you work really hard
[25:24] to be really really smart. The only
[25:25] problem is nobody likes being around a
[25:27] know-it-all. So you've worked really
[25:29] hard to be a person that nobody wants to
[25:31] be around. So when you're at that table,
[25:33] there is something that you know there
[25:35] is value that you have to offer. But
[25:36] being know some is there's a curiosity.
[25:39] Um a question that you could ask them
[25:41] that I've been asking a lot of people
[25:42] that I just love is um what's something
[25:45] you're unlearning right now? What's
[25:47] something you're unlearning? What's
[25:49] something you believe 10 years ago that
[25:51] today you go I don't know about that?
[25:53] What am I what are you unlearning? What
[25:55] you're showing is a great honor and
[25:57] respect for them, but you're also
[25:58] getting their wheels turning. Number
[26:00] one, if they don't have an answer to
[26:01] that question, well, that means they're
[26:03] actually not learning anything new. But
[26:05] if they also don't have an answer to
[26:07] that question, they might go, "Is there
[26:09] something that I'm missing?" Another
[26:11] question you could ask them in in such
[26:13] an honoring way, you could go, "Hey,
[26:16] thanks for what you did for me in eighth
[26:17] grade.
[26:18] >> Hey, what what do you think's changed
[26:20] since I was in the eighth grader? Now
[26:22] that we're trying to serve eighth
[26:23] graders, what have you noticed about my
[26:25] generation that's different from the
[26:27] eighth graders that we have in our
[26:28] classrooms right now? Again, you're
[26:30] you're still honoring and you but now
[26:33] you have a posture of you're inviting
[26:35] them to a table to have a conversation
[26:37] versus a man, this these are some of all
[26:39] of the things that we we need to do. So,
[26:41] what you're trying to do right now is by
[26:43] influence in your organization. And I
[26:46] think by being a knowit some, I think
[26:47] it's really going to help you add value
[26:49] to it. You know, I had Simon Senk here
[26:51] at the tea house table uh recently and
[26:55] he was saying that what the Gen X
[26:59] generation needs to understand to echo
[27:02] what you're saying about Gen Z
[27:04] generation and you know other
[27:07] generations coming up is that it was a
[27:10] completely different time. So when
[27:12] you're 50 years old, 60 years old, you
[27:15] think everybody is operating on the on
[27:18] the same from from the same world view
[27:21] because you had the same world
[27:22] experiences. And he was just saying that
[27:25] your generation in particular, Brian,
[27:28] has seen your parents grow up and get
[27:30] layoffs. They've seen that the golden
[27:33] watch era of working for one company for
[27:36] multiple years and being rewarded for
[27:38] that, right?
[27:39] >> It didn't pay off so well. They've just
[27:42] seen so many things that prior
[27:45] generations
[27:47] didn't experience. I mean, all the kids
[27:49] you're teaching have grown up from birth
[27:53] with technology, cell phones, and and
[27:55] all of that, which makes a very
[27:57] different world and world experience for
[27:59] them. And I think what Ryan is
[28:01] suggesting here
[28:03] >> is a fantastic opportunity for y'all to
[28:06] get together in the teachers lounge,
[28:08] whatever y'all doing in there talking
[28:10] about other students to actually have a
[28:12] real conversation about the difference
[28:15] between when you were there and if you
[28:16] start out complimenting them, if you
[28:18] start out sharing how much you got from
[28:21] them just as as as Ryan has suggested
[28:24] and then lead into so how do you think
[28:27] it's different and do you think that you
[28:31] would be teaching the same to us then as
[28:34] you're teaching now. I think that opens
[28:36] the door for them to see it differently
[28:38] cuz that's really what you're trying to
[28:40] get them to do
[28:41] >> is to see it differently and to Right.
[28:43] Absolutely.
[28:44] >> And to bring them along without
[28:45] offending them, without like y'all are
[28:47] old, [laughter]
[28:48] >> without saying y'all are old.
[28:52] >> I think that absolutely it makes sense
[28:54] to me. I mean, it has been just so
[28:56] rewarding to do that full circle
[29:00] experience with them, but I also want to
[29:02] maximize the time that I have left,
[29:03] especially as they're getting close to
[29:05] retirement and one day I won't have them
[29:07] as a resource moving forward.
[29:09] >> That's fantastic.
[29:10] >> Love it.
[29:10] >> Well, I think I think uh these are some
[29:13] good takeaways, right?
[29:14] >> Yeah,
[29:14] >> absolutely. I mean, we are already
[29:16] looking forward to next year, but we're
[29:18] coming to the end of chapter 1, and I
[29:21] really just want to start utilizing some
[29:23] of these approaches for hopefully a long
[29:25] and successful career with my kids.
[29:27] >> I think that's great. Thank you. I love
[29:29] teachers. Thank you. Thank you so much,
[29:30] Brian. Thank you,
[29:31] >> Brian. Appreciate. Thank you, Ryan.
[29:33] >> So, you devote a whole entire chapter uh
[29:37] to communication, right? Right.
[29:39] >> And you've concluded what? That most
[29:41] people are
[29:42] >> pretty flawed at communicating. And
[29:44] that's the word everybody always use. We
[29:46] just need better communication.
[29:48] >> Yeah.
[29:49] >> Yeah. We just need to have better
[29:52] communication. [laughter] So how how do
[29:55] people have better how do people become
[29:58] better communicators?
[29:59] >> Well, first I think we have to establish
[30:01] what is going to be the goal of the
[30:03] communication. What is the goal of this
[30:05] conversation?
[30:06] >> I think that's I think I think in all
[30:08] these circumstances people need need to
[30:10] clarify what does that mean? Because the
[30:12] word communication may mean one thing to
[30:14] you.
[30:14] >> Sure.
[30:15] >> What you're sharing, it may mean
[30:16] something else to me.
[30:17] >> Yeah. I I would say in this context,
[30:19] we're talking about having conversations
[30:21] with difficult people or with a
[30:23] complicated person.
[30:24] >> Yeah.
[30:24] >> And if we're honest about what our
[30:27] actual goal is with these conversations,
[30:29] >> yes,
[30:30] >> it's actually agreement.
[30:31] >> I actually have something and lowkey, I
[30:35] actually really want you to agree with
[30:37] me. And so that is that's my underlying
[30:40] goal of the conversation. I think if
[30:42] we're going to be effective in
[30:44] communication, we have to shift the
[30:45] goal. I don't think the goal should be
[30:47] I'm trying to get you to agree with me.
[30:49] I think the goal should be connection.
[30:51] >> Okay.
[30:51] >> And the minute we lose connection, it's
[30:53] going to be very very difficult for us
[30:55] to have communication.
[30:56] >> A difficult conversation for sure.
[30:58] >> Absolutely. So Nadia joins us from
[31:00] Houston. Nadia, what's going on with
[31:02] you? Hi there.
[31:04] >> Hi Oprah. Hi Ryan. Thanks for including
[31:06] me in the conversation.
[31:08] >> So, I have been in HR for about 25
[31:12] years. In the past 15 years, I've been
[31:14] helping big tech organizations recruit
[31:17] their executive leaders. Yeah.
[31:18] >> So, I know a thing or two about
[31:20] complicated people. That's right.
[31:22] >> Um, I have to say one of my favorite
[31:25] things in the book is acknowledging that
[31:28] we too are complicated in someone's
[31:29] story. Right. I found myself getting
[31:31] blocked with someone today and I was
[31:33] able to go wait let you know I'm
[31:36] probably complicated for them too and
[31:38] that allowed me to diffuse the situation
[31:40] remove the emotion and then we could
[31:42] work towards solving an outcome. So
[31:44] thank you for that.
[31:45] >> Yes.
[31:45] >> But my question for you is there is so
[31:48] much rhetoric around complicated bosses,
[31:51] complicated peers,
[31:53] >> but I don't hear a lot of conversation
[31:55] around leading complicated teams. And
[31:58] let's let's unpack that a bit. It could
[32:00] be they are not intentionally
[32:01] complicated. It could be macro, micro
[32:04] things, or changes, difficult economy.
[32:06] But as a leader of teams, how do I drive
[32:09] performance? You know, make sure we're
[32:11] hitting the goals that we've set without
[32:13] losing my humanity or my like human-
[32:15] centered kindness. I'd love to get your
[32:17] perspective.
[32:18] >> Yeah, you know, you've got you've got
[32:19] quite a few layers there and uh Juan,
[32:22] thank you for your vulnerability and and
[32:24] even just being able to to come on the
[32:25] show. I think part of it is is leaders
[32:28] have to set the tone and that's what
[32:30] people often forget that they are the
[32:32] absolute tone setter. Your attitude is
[32:36] the number one thing that will set the
[32:38] tone for [snorts] every single room that
[32:40] you lead. And so even in our research,
[32:42] we thought politics would be the number
[32:44] one thing that would determine if a
[32:46] person was complicated to work with or
[32:48] not complicated or enjoyable. It was
[32:50] actually dead last in our research. We
[32:52] then thought it would be personality
[32:54] profiles like, "Oh, I'm introverted,
[32:56] you're extroverted, or maybe you're
[32:57] ambberverted, and you don't know until
[32:59] you've had a cup of coffee." Like, we
[33:00] thought it was going to be those things.
[33:01] That was third to last. The number one
[33:04] thing that determined if somebody was
[33:06] enjoyable or complicated to work with
[33:07] was attitude. Attitude. And And the
[33:10] reason I love that is it's because it's
[33:12] the number one thing you can actually
[33:14] control. And so whenever you're dealing
[33:16] with somebody that might be disgruntled
[33:18] or dealing with somebody that might be
[33:20] angry or somebody that's passive
[33:22] aggressive, the temptation is to match
[33:24] the energy. The phrase I like to use is
[33:27] we don't match the energy. We set the
[33:28] standard. I don't match passive
[33:30] aggressive email for passive aggressive
[33:32] email. You might have a funky attitude,
[33:34] but I don't mean I might have a funky
[33:35] attitude. I have already made a decision
[33:38] about my attitude. And what we have
[33:40] learned is that attitudes are
[33:42] contagious. In fact, in the book, we
[33:44] talk about how one compliment can
[33:46] actually spread across 8,000
[33:49] interactions within 24 hours, especially
[33:52] for somebody like you who leads teams
[33:54] because you decided to set the tone. You
[33:56] decided that you were going to start off
[33:58] meetings with fun ice breakers. You
[34:00] decided you were going to lead the
[34:01] culture. You don't let somebody else
[34:03] determine that temperature. You do. You
[34:05] have chosen your attitude. So for me, I
[34:08] travel and speak for a living, which
[34:09] means I'm at the number one place in the
[34:12] world every single day where the
[34:13] angriest people go every day. The
[34:15] airport. Let me tell you something.
[34:17] People be mad at the airport. Okay? They
[34:19] be mad mad. Okay? [laughter] They mad at
[34:21] the weather. They mad at the gate agent.
[34:22] They mad at TSA. They mad at everybody.
[34:25] And so [laughter] I just made a decision
[34:27] that since this is where I work, I I'm
[34:30] not going to be mad. Why? I'm expecting
[34:33] it to not go well. I'm expecting the
[34:35] delay. I'm expecting weather to not go
[34:36] well. And then all of a sudden, you
[34:38] know, agent comes over, the announcer,
[34:40] oh, sorry, this plane has been delayed.
[34:42] And then everybody, and they lose their
[34:44] minds. I'm like, no, I I've just decided
[34:46] I'm going to have a great day at the
[34:47] airport.
[34:48] >> You get to choose the energy you bring
[34:51] every single day. Do not match the
[34:53] energy. Set the standard. when you set
[34:56] the standard
[34:58] allows you to to step into some of those
[35:00] difficult conversations to be able to
[35:02] say, "Hey, I care enough about you to be
[35:04] honest with you."
[35:05] >> And I can say that with a smile on my
[35:06] face.
[35:07] >> I I I'm not against you. I care enough
[35:10] about you to be honest with you. And and
[35:12] and if I'm honest, I don't think you're
[35:13] giving your best. And for in light of
[35:16] the goals that you want to accomplish in
[35:18] your career and in your life, in light
[35:21] of the promotion that you want, hey, we
[35:24] we we've got to raise the bar. You're
[35:25] better than that. And so I I think you
[35:27] can still speak with kindness, but you
[35:29] still got a smile on your face and
[35:31] you've already made a decision about who
[35:32] you're going to be when you show up.
[35:34] >> I think this is so great. Don't you
[35:36] Don't you think this is great, Nadia?
[35:37] And also for the hundreds of little
[35:41] aggressions or microaggressions that
[35:44] people get. That's right.
[35:45] >> And I'm not just talking about racial
[35:46] microaggressions. I mean
[35:47] microaggressions you get from your
[35:49] colleagues or you get them in texts and
[35:51] so forth. You don't have I think if you
[35:53] just take a pause, you don't have to
[35:55] respond to the text or the email with
[35:57] the same energy that's coming at you.
[35:59] That's what you're saying. You have a
[36:01] choice to literally flip the energy
[36:04] around and do something more positive. I
[36:06] think that's terrific.
[36:08] >> Amazing. Set the standard. I love it.
[36:09] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Nadia.
[36:11] >> You're welcome.
[36:12] >> So, in your research, one of the things
[36:14] you found, I heard, was that nearly half
[36:16] of Americans quit their jobs. Really?
[36:19] Because of their boss? Oh yeah, big
[36:22] time.
[36:22] >> Yeah.
[36:22] >> Yeah. It's it's amazing. Uh just a
[36:26] little under half have skipped a day at
[36:27] work because they were having to deal
[36:29] with a complicated person.
[36:30] >> You say people don't quit jobs, they
[36:32] quit bosses.
[36:33] >> That's right. They quit leaders.
[36:34] >> Yeah.
[36:35] >> No question about it.
[36:35] >> What do you want to say about this?
[36:36] >> It's interesting because you know it
[36:39] goes back to this idea of it
[36:42] >> because the leadership starts at the
[36:43] top.
[36:44] >> It does.
[36:44] >> Yeah. and their relationship with that
[36:48] person that's in charge of them really
[36:50] determines if they're going to truly
[36:51] enjoy that job or not. Which means we
[36:53] have a whole lot of power in being able
[36:56] to create the kind of environment that
[36:58] people look forward to showing up to on
[37:00] a Monday morning. But it's hard to look
[37:02] in the mirror. It's hard to take
[37:03] accountability in
[37:04] >> I think that's a great great great
[37:06] position or a great attitude for
[37:09] managers to take. Yeah.
[37:10] >> Do I want to create the kind of
[37:12] environment that people want to show up
[37:15] and be in this space on a Monday
[37:18] morning?
[37:18] >> Yeah.
[37:19] >> Yeah.
[37:19] >> Yeah. And if cuz if they do that, well,
[37:22] now they're active. They're being very
[37:24] intentional about about the culture. But
[37:26] it it starts with them. It it starts
[37:28] with the mirror. In fact, when we did
[37:30] our research, we asked all of our
[37:32] participants, "How would you define
[37:34] >> You've mentioned research so many times.
[37:35] Where is where is all this research?"
[37:37] Yes.
[37:37] >> It's on our website. It's in the book.
[37:39] It's it it's there. We ask all of our
[37:41] participants a very important question.
[37:43] How would you define the word
[37:44] complicated? Because complicated to you
[37:46] might not be complicated to me and
[37:48] something that's simple to me might be
[37:49] very complicated for you. And so we
[37:51] wanted to get an academic definition of
[37:53] the word complicated.
[37:54] >> First person wrote this Leslie. I said
[37:57] who is Leslie and what did she do to
[37:59] you? Like do you understand the
[38:00] question? Next person wrote the name
[38:02] Jamal. I said I know a Jamal. Like it's
[38:04] is it's what did Jamal do? And so it's
[38:07] it's usually a person like a lot of
[38:09] times we're looking for well is this
[38:11] person difficult is this usually a name
[38:14] pops up in somebody's mind and it's we
[38:16] have to come to the sobering reality
[38:18] >> that we could be somebody's name that on
[38:21] the other side of me Ryan could be
[38:23] complicated and if I realize that well
[38:25] then I can actually do something about
[38:27] that to go you know what I actually want
[38:29] to make this relationship better and if
[38:31] there's some adjustments that I can make
[38:33] to create the kind of environment that
[38:34] people look forward to showing up to on
[38:36] a Monday then I want to do that.
[38:37] >> Yeah. And it's also, you know, nobody
[38:39] ever labels themselves complicated. You
[38:43] know, I I remember talking to
[38:45] >> a designer once who was just one of the
[38:47] most complicated people on earth, and
[38:48] she was like, I think I'm the nicest
[38:50] person. [laughter]
[38:52] >> You do?
[38:53] >> Well, and that's the funny thing is is
[38:56] you could be easy to work with and a
[38:58] headache at home. You you could be a
[39:01] nightmare to raise kids with and the
[39:03] best boss ever. You could be uh a gym to
[39:07] leadership, but you could be a
[39:08] micromanager to everybody that reports
[39:10] to you. Like that's why it's complicated
[39:13] because it really is subjective and in
[39:15] in the eye of the beholder.
[39:17] >> I think that's why this book is so
[39:19] important. I think everybody who is
[39:21] actually working should get this book
[39:23] and this is a good book to leave with
[39:25] the person's who is complicated. Just
[39:28] leave it on their desk with a little
[39:30] love note.
[39:31] >> That's right. Amber posts often on
[39:32] social media about complicated people at
[39:34] work. Let's watch this short video from
[39:36] Amber.
[39:37] >> There are way too many companies and
[39:38] bosses that don't take bullying and
[39:40] abuse at work seriously. And we've all
[39:42] talked about quiet quitting, but I would
[39:43] like to coin the term quiet bullying.
[39:45] There ever been a time where you applied
[39:47] for a job and you were super
[39:48] overqualified, but it's a job that you
[39:50] actually wanted and they turned you away
[39:51] because you were overqualified. The
[39:53] problem is when we're high performers
[39:55] under a bad boss, it makes us look bad
[39:58] if we tell on them. if we go to anybody
[40:00] above them and you just can't really
[40:02] tell anyone. Is it that the biggest
[40:04] bullies at work and the meanest people
[40:06] get moved up into leadership the
[40:07] fastest? Why are they getting the most
[40:09] promotions and the most money?
[40:11] >> Too often we hear that people just don't
[40:12] want to work, especially young people.
[40:14] But can we finally talk about the fact
[40:15] that that's true?
[40:17] >> Some people at your job really, really
[40:18] need to hear this. You are only as
[40:20] beautiful as you treat the people around
[40:23] you.
[40:24] >> All right, I agree with that. Amber
[40:26] joins us from Virginia. Hi, Amber. I
[40:28] know you've read Ryan's work. What do
[40:29] you What do you want to ask him? Thank
[40:31] you.
[40:32] >> Hi. Hi, Ryan. Hi, Oprah. Thank you for
[40:34] having me today. It is so cool to be
[40:36] here with you guys. Ryan, I I'm a huge
[40:39] fan of yours and something that I really
[40:41] love about what you do is you are
[40:43] incredibly vulnerable
[40:45] >> and you don't see that in a lot of
[40:46] professional speakers. Um, you are
[40:49] really open about talking about your
[40:51] missteps or maybe where you could have
[40:53] done something differently. Yeah.
[40:55] >> So, a couple things that really
[40:56] resonated with me about the book because
[40:58] I loved it was this sentiment that we
[41:00] are all weird and irritating and
[41:04] complicated to someone.
[41:06] >> And when we're difficult, we really
[41:09] expect acceptance and grace, but when
[41:11] someone else is, we just cancel them.
[41:13] >> Right.
[41:14] >> So, that leads me to my question for
[41:16] you, which is when we're doing all of
[41:18] that inner work.
[41:19] >> Yeah. um and we are dealing with someone
[41:22] that is just
[41:24] they are just too complicated.
[41:27] >> What are the signs of that? What is the
[41:29] sign that they are just too complicated
[41:31] and it's just dead growth at that point?
[41:33] >> It's a phenomenal question. You know the
[41:35] the subtitle of this book strategies for
[41:38] effective collaboration with nearly
[41:40] anyone. We say nearly because some
[41:42] people are certified crazy and you
[41:43] cannot work with everybody. And so we we
[41:46] have we're hopeful but we we also have
[41:48] to be realistic. of it.
[41:49] >> And so there are going to be some people
[41:52] that are unapproachable,
[41:55] um, uncoachable, unapologetic,
[41:59] and some people just aren't trying to
[42:01] grow. They they have this thing in them
[42:04] that says, "My personality is
[42:06] crock-potted into what it is. I'm going
[42:08] to do me, you do you, boo boo." Is is
[42:12] their mantra. And some people just
[42:14] aren't trying to be civil. They're not
[42:16] trying to grow their relationships. are
[42:18] not trying to be a better colleague.
[42:19] They're not trying to be a better
[42:21] parent, a better spouse. And those are
[42:23] going to be very, very difficult people
[42:25] that you are going to have to have
[42:27] boundaries with. I'm a firm believer
[42:30] that boundaries are not walls. They are
[42:33] doors with locks on them, which means
[42:35] you decide who comes in and out when you
[42:38] want them to. And a lot of people find
[42:41] that very
[42:41] >> It's really good.
[42:42] >> They they they find it difficult.
[42:44] >> Really good. [laughter] They find it
[42:47] difficult to put up boundaries because
[42:49] it shatters the illusion that
[42:50] everybody's my friend.
[42:52] >> Ah we we want this idea of like I like
[42:55] everybody and everybody likes me. That's
[42:57] just not true. That's not reality. And
[43:00] so so we do have to put up these
[43:02] boundaries to be able to say hey I I I
[43:04] can't be close with everybody. I can't
[43:06] be everybody's best friend. I'm not
[43:08] always going to say the right thing. I'm
[43:09] not always going to say everything that
[43:11] you like. and and and it's okay to uh
[43:15] pray for somebody from a distance and
[43:17] not be in the group chat anymore. It's
[43:19] okay to have empathy for somebody and
[43:21] also have some distance.
[43:23] >> Yeah. Yeah. My Maya Angelo, you
[43:25] mentioned her earlier, my mentor friend
[43:27] used to say, "I wish you well in your
[43:30] struggle. I wish you well in your
[43:32] struggle."
[43:33] >> No question.
[43:34] >> Yeah. And but I'm done with that. Yeah.
[43:36] But I wish you well in your struggle.
[43:37] And it's okay to do that. I wish you
[43:39] well.
[43:39] >> Yeah.
[43:40] >> Really? Truly. Every time that you we
[43:43] are consistently training people how to
[43:46] treat us and we don't even realize it.
[43:48] Every time that you respond to a text at
[43:51] midnight, you're telling them it's okay
[43:52] to text me at midnight. Every time you
[43:55] let a comment slide, you're telling
[43:56] them,
[43:56] >> "Sorry, Tara." [laughter]
[43:59] >> You're you're you're telling them it
[44:00] it's okay. And so it's okay until you
[44:03] tell them that it's not.
[44:04] >> Yeah.
[44:05] >> And and that's where I I believe it's
[44:06] important to to set those boundaries.
[44:08] >> You can tell me. Terara's been my
[44:09] producer for 30 years. You can
[44:10] [laughter] tell me. I just woke up and I
[44:12] had to pee in the middle of the night
[44:14] and I just sent a text or email at that
[44:16] moment. You You don't have to answer it.
[44:18] >> I mean, but this is Oprah. Oprah's
[44:20] different though. Oprah's different. If
[44:22] Oprah texts me at midnight, I'm I'm
[44:23] responding. Okay, that's different.
[44:25] >> No, no, no, no, [laughter] no. I just
[44:27] have that thing and sometimes I'm like,
[44:28] maybe I should just wait. Maybe I should
[44:30] just wait. But okay, so she didn't have
[44:31] to read it. Read it when you want to
[44:32] read it. But anyway, all right. So,
[44:35] anything else you want to share with us?
[44:37] How do we convince people who just
[44:41] assume they're not complicated to
[44:43] actually pick up your book? Because the
[44:44] ones that are that want to do the inner
[44:46] work like you know they they're like
[44:48] yes.
[44:48] >> That's a really good point Amber that
[44:50] all of us who are trying to work with
[44:52] the complicated people excluding
[44:54] ourselves we're picking up the book but
[44:57] the really complicated people
[45:00] >> they're not reading the book.
[45:01] >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, I a counselor
[45:04] friend said this to me a couple of
[45:05] months ago and it was just very helpful.
[45:07] She said, "Don't work harder than your
[45:09] client. Don't work harder than your
[45:11] client." Like, I'm not chasing you to
[45:12] go, "Hey, when's your next appointment?
[45:14] Hey, when are you going to work on you?"
[45:16] No, I'm just I'm just going to work on
[45:18] me. My mindset is if if my plan in life
[45:22] is to say my marriage would be better if
[45:25] my wife just got it together. If that's
[45:27] the plan, then the marriage isn't going
[45:28] to get better. No, no, no. The marriage
[45:30] gets better when I get better. when I
[45:32] grow when I So, and your question is a
[45:35] question that I get all the time and and
[45:37] I just always tell them they're not in
[45:39] the room, you are. And if you're in the
[45:41] room, this book is not about how to fix
[45:44] other people. It's about how to grow
[45:45] you. And so, if you when you get better,
[45:48] every relationship you have will get
[45:49] better because you you've got a growth
[45:51] mindset. You can try and inspire them.
[45:53] You could share some of my videos on
[45:55] social media and say, "Hey, you should
[45:56] check out this guy. Isn't this guy awes?
[45:58] I mean, you could do that and and then
[46:00] who knows, they'll run into a QR code
[46:01] and they'll they'll buy a book. Um, but
[46:03] I I think that the best thing that you
[46:06] can do for somebody that's complicated
[46:08] in your world is for you to grow you and
[46:10] for them to see the fruit of what's
[46:13] happening in your life.
[46:14] >> Yeah. Really
[46:15] >> tell yourself a different story maybe.
[46:17] >> Yeah.
[46:18] >> Yes. Yeah. For sure.
[46:19] >> Yeah.
[46:20] >> Absolutely. Thank you, Amber.
[46:23] >> Thank you guys.
[46:24] >> Love all your videos, girl. Love those
[46:25] videos. Thank you. So you share Ryan
[46:29] that there's one word to really sum up
[46:32] uh you know most of your research and
[46:35] what is that?
[46:36] >> Hope.
[46:36] >> Hope. Okay.
[46:38] >> Yeah. Hope. You know there are so many
[46:40] people
[46:42] who feel so stuck in their life. They
[46:46] feel like they have been handed a code
[46:48] of conduct and that they have no no
[46:51] other options. Mhm.
[46:52] >> The thing I hear from people the most is
[46:54] it's like they're getting their code of
[46:55] conduct from their zip code.
[46:57] >> Yeah.
[46:57] >> And their household and and they talk
[46:59] like this. I'm from Chicago. You like,
[47:01] hey, calm down. I know some very nice
[47:02] people [laughter] in Chicago. You know,
[47:03] I'm from Detroit. Like, hey, hey,
[47:05] Detroit's coming up. Leave Detroit
[47:06] alone. You know, but they have this like
[47:09] where I'm from
[47:11] indicates where I'm going. And and the
[47:13] what sums up this book is, hey, you can
[47:16] be different if you want to. There's
[47:18] hope that if if you need to go have that
[47:20] difficult conversation, you can. If
[47:22] you're trying to rebound from a divorce,
[47:24] you can. There is a better future for
[47:26] you. You can decide your code. You can
[47:28] change. That is the purpose of this
[47:31] book.
[47:31] >> Because as you say on the back of the
[47:33] book, on the other side of complicated
[47:35] is the wonderful wide openen world of
[47:38] effective collaboration and a workplace
[47:41] you can love.
[47:42] >> That's right.
[47:43] >> Especially if managers are thinking
[47:45] about how do I make this the kind of
[47:46] workplace that people want to come to on
[47:48] a Monday. I think so. So many really
[47:51] vital lessons in this book. Thank you
[47:53] for writing it, Ryan Leak. And our
[47:55] thanks to Brian and Nadia and Amber.
[47:57] Ryan's book, How to Work with
[47:58] Complicated People, is available
[48:01] everywhere books are sold. I know you
[48:03] know somebody who needs this book.
[48:05] [laughter]
[48:05] Go well.
[48:06] >> Thank you so much.
[48:07] >> Thank you so much. And thank you to our
[48:09] friends at Geico for presenting today's
[48:11] episode. If you've ever struggled with a
[48:13] difficult boss or co-orker, and really,
[48:16] who hasn't?
[48:16] >> [music]
[48:17] >> The QR code for Ryan Leak's book, How to
[48:19] Work with Complicated People, is on your
[48:21] screen. And it may be exactly what
[48:23] [music] you need. It's a guide to
[48:25] understanding others more deeply,
[48:27] communicating more effectively yourself,
[48:29] and [music] finding better ways to work
[48:31] through conflict. You can buy it right
[48:34] this second just by scanning the QR code
[48:36] on your screen. [music] Here's to better
[48:38] relationships.
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