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Inspiration

Beauty, Being, and the Path of Perception in Nonduality

GI
Garrison Institute
Oct 19, 2026
9 min de leitura

De Garrison Institute

Assistir · 6

In a studio conversation recorded at the Garrison Institute, host Steve Varley asks Rupert Spira about the thirty-odd years he spent throwing pots, and the answer quickly leaves clay behind. Spira, a spiritual teacher, author and former ceramic artist, argues that every contemplative tradition, however it is dressed, eventually points to a single recognition: peace and happiness are the nature of your being, and that being is shared with everyone and everything. He describes three doorways through which a person can return to that recognition, thinking, feeling and perceiving, and he makes a case that the least-mapped of them, perception, is the one an artist walks every day. Along the way he explains why his teaching has moved away from the vocabulary of consciousness and toward the language of being, love and devotion. What follows is a close reading of that conversation for readers who did not hear it.

Leitura · 8 seções

What does a ceramic artist have to do with nonduality?

The connection, for Spira, is not a metaphor. A pot and a teaching both begin as attention. When he talks about his years in the studio, he is describing a discipline of looking closely enough that the object dissolves into the seeing of it. That is the thread he pulls throughout the conversation, and it explains why the host opens with clay: the reasoning behind Spira's teaching has a craftsman's logic.

Spira is clear that the clay was never the point. The point was what the clay could do to the person looking at it. That shift in emphasis, from object to experience, is the hinge on which the rest of his thinking turns.

What are the three doorways back to your true nature?

Spira begins with a simple observation about how human beings meet the world. We think, we feel, and we perceive. Each of these modes, he argues, can serve as a pathway back to one's true nature, however a person chooses to name it. The traditions have long mapped the first two. Jnana Yoga, the path of knowledge, works through inquiry and reasoning. Bhakti Yoga, the path of devotion, works through love and surrender. Both are well established in the literature of the world's spiritual traditions.

"The third path is um less common in the spiritual tradition, the path of perception. And that's more the path of the artist." (Rupert Spira, The Common Good podcast, Garrison Institute, 2:34)

That third path, perception, is where Spira locates the artist's special role. A painter, a musician, a chef: each uses the senses to take a person somewhere. The difference he draws is one of direction. Most sensory experience pulls attention outward toward the world. The artist, in his account, reverses the current and draws attention inward, toward the source in which perception appears. It is a subtle claim, but it reframes art from decoration into a method of inquiry.

This matters because it means a listener or a viewer need not be a philosopher or a devotee to be carried toward recognition. A piece of music or a glazed bowl can do part of the work that a line of argument or a surrender practice does for others.

Why does beauty reveal the reality beneath appearances?

Spira returns repeatedly to beauty, and his definition is precise. Beauty, he says, is what happens when the veil of appearances collapses and the reality behind appearance is revealed. The experience is not the admiration of a pleasing shape. It is a moment when the usual sense that a world is out there, separate from the one who sees it, briefly loosens.

To anchor the idea, he turns to the painter Paul Cézanne. As Spira recounts it, Cézanne wanted viewers to receive "a taste of nature's eternity." He did not simply want to reproduce the mountain in front of him. Spira reads Cézanne's underlying concern as a recognition that everything we perceive of a mountain is fleeting, and yet something real in nature persists. The painter's job, in Spira's reading, was to use color and form to evoke that persistence in the viewer.

(Rupert Spira, The Common Good podcast, Garrison Institute, 3:57.) Spira's conclusion is that this is the ultimate function of the great artist: to give people access to what lies behind the appearance of the world. He frames it as a question worth sitting with. What is it that is appearing to us as the world? The artist, at his best, makes that question felt rather than merely asked.

What changed when the work left the studio?

The conversation then turns to the shift in Spira's own life. For roughly thirty years, he says, he worked alone or with one or two assistants. His pots went out across the world and were used, sometimes for decades, by people he would never meet. He stayed home. The reward was real but indirect. He describes it as a conversation that happened at a distance, where the response arrived only after the piece had left the room.

Teaching has reversed that arrangement. He now travels, sits with people, hears their questions and watches how a line of thought lands on a face. He names the immediacy as one of the things he most loves about the work. The message has not changed; the feedback loop has. Spira frames both activities as profoundly rewarding for different reasons, and he is candid about the trade-off. A potter does not get to see the effect of a piece; a teacher does, and can adjust in real time.

He also says, in passing, that he misses making things with his hands. He and his wife have moved to a small farm in rural Devon, in the southwest of England, and he expects that over the coming years he will build a studio and return to making pots on a small scale. (Rupert Spira, The Common Good podcast, Garrison Institute, 6:53.)

Why has the teaching moved from consciousness toward being, love and devotion?

Host Steve Varley notices a change in the vocabulary. In Spira's recent teaching, he hears more about being, God, love and devotion, and less of the philosophical language of consciousness and awareness. Spira agrees that the expression has changed, though he insists the essential understanding has not.

He traces his own formation to the classical Vedanta tradition, where the early literature speaks in terms of consciousness and awareness, and he acknowledges that those were the words in which he first learned these ideas. Over time, though, he says he has loosened his attachment to that inherited framing. In his words: "I'm really a Sufi on the inside." (Rupert Spira, The Common Good podcast, Garrison Institute, 8:58.) He describes his speaking and writing as having liberated him, in a sense, from the tradition in which he grew up, so that the language of love and devotion arises more naturally.

For a reader, the practical implication is that the shift is one of emphasis rather than doctrine. Consciousness is a precise philosophical term that can feel cool and abstract. Being, love and devotion are words that carry warmth and invite a person in. Spira is not abandoning inquiry; he is choosing words that match the experience he wants to point toward.

What single sentence do all the traditions share?

The sharpest moment in the conversation is also the simplest. Spira proposes a thought experiment: take the last three thousand years of everything written and said in the religious and contemplative traditions, and distill it into a single sentence. His answer is that peace and happiness are the nature of your being, and that you share your being with everyone and everything.

"I think that all traditions, all pathways, all methods, all practices, sooner or later more or less directly take you to the recognition of the nature of your being. What is that recognition? Peace and happiness are the nature of your being. And you share your being with everyone and everything." (Rupert Spira, The Common Good podcast, Garrison Institute, 0:03)

It is worth pausing on the two halves of that sentence. The first makes a claim about the destination: peace and happiness are not achievements added later but the natural condition of being itself. The second makes a claim about relationship: the being that you recognize is not private property. It is shared. That is the bridge the conversation keeps trying to cross, from an inward discovery toward how a person actually lives among others.

Where do inner peace and responsibility to others meet?

The Common Good is a podcast about the threads that bind people together, and the episode's own description says the conversation moves on to inner peace and responsibility to others, and to whether artificial intelligence could ever experience consciousness. A later exchange in the excerpt shows the host asking what it would mean to recognize that one shares one's being with others, and the question opens onto the practical stakes of nonduality. The excerpt available for this article ends before the fuller answers, so it would be inaccurate to summarize Spira's full position on suffering, responsibility or machine consciousness. Readers who want those answers should listen to the full episode.

What can be said with confidence is the frame the conversation sets up. If peace is the nature of being and being is shared, then concern for others is not a separate ethical project layered on top of spiritual life. It follows from the recognition itself.

Where to go from here

Start with the episode itself. The full conversation runs about forty-four minutes and is worth hearing in Spira's own cadence, since the pauses and the Cézanne quotation carry as much as the argument. The Garrison Institute's podcast page at https://www.garrisoninstitute.org/podcasts/ hosts The Common Good, and the newsletter at http://eepurl.com/g9exsL offers previews of upcoming shows. Rupert Spira's own work is at https://rupertspira.com/.

For a practical entry point, try Spira's three-doorway idea in your own week. Notice whether your inquiry tends toward thinking, toward feeling, or toward the senses. Then spend ten minutes with something beautiful, a painting, a piece of music, a bowl, and attend to the moment when the sense of a separate object loosens. That is the taste of nature's eternity Cézanne was after, and it is available to anyone willing to look.

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Transcript

[0:03] I think that all traditions, all

[0:05] pathways, all all methods

[0:09] all practices

[0:11] sooner or later

[0:13] more or less directly take you to the

[0:17] recognition of the nature of your being.

[0:21] What is that recognition?

[0:23] Peace and happiness are the nature of

[0:25] your being.

[0:26] And you share your being with everyone

[0:29] and everything.

[0:30] I think that's it. If you took the last

[0:33] 3,000 years

[0:36] everything that has been written and

[0:37] said in all the religious and

[0:40] contemplative traditions and distill

[0:42] them into a sentence

[0:45] peace and happiness [music] are the

[0:46] nature of your being

[0:47] and you share your being with everyone

[0:49] and everything.

[0:59] >> Welcome to the Common Good. I'm Steve

[1:02] Varley.

[1:03] Today I'm at [music] the Garrison

[1:04] Institute with Rupert Spira, spiritual

[1:07] teacher author and artist whose work

[1:10] explores the nature of our experience

[1:12] and what it means to share our being

[1:14] with others.

[1:15] We begin with clay and beauty and talk

[1:17] about why his teaching increasingly uses

[1:19] the language of [music] being, love, and

[1:21] devotion.

[1:23] We also explore question that matters to

[1:25] this podcast.

[1:26] How does an inward discovery relate to

[1:29] suffering and our responsibilities to

[1:31] other people?

[1:32] And we hear how those questions come

[1:34] alive on retreat.

[1:36] Here's my conversation with Rupert

[1:37] Spira.

[1:54] >> [music]

[1:57] >> Rupert Spira, welcome to the Common

[1:59] Good. I'd love to start with your life

[2:02] as a ceramic artist. What were you

[2:05] exploring through clay and how's that

[2:07] connect with the work you're doing now?

[2:10] >> Well, as human beings, we experience in

[2:15] three [snorts] different ways. We we

[2:17] think,

[2:19] we feel,

[2:21] and we perceive.

[2:23] And this each of these modes of

[2:26] experience

[2:28] is a pathway through which it's possible

[2:31] to return to one's true nature or

[2:34] recognize the nature of reality, however

[2:37] one expresses it. And the spiritual

[2:39] traditions in general have elaborated

[2:41] pathways

[2:42] that

[2:43] cater to the first two, thinking and

[2:46] feeling, the paths of knowledge and the

[2:47] paths of devotion. These two pathways

[2:49] are very well

[2:50] accounted for in the spiritual

[2:52] traditions, Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, and

[2:56] in many different traditions. The third

[2:58] path is um

[3:01] less common in the spiritual tradition,

[3:04] the path of perception.

[3:06] And that's more the path of the artist.

[3:09] So, thinking can be a pathway [music]

[3:10] back to your true nature.

[3:12] Feeling or devotion, love, can be a

[3:14] pathway back to your true nature, but

[3:16] also so can perception.

[3:18] Perception that and that's really the

[3:20] the role of the artist is not to engage

[3:22] you in a line of reasoning, not to

[3:24] [music] engage you in a devotional

[3:25] practice of surrender,

[3:27] but to engage your senses, to take your

[3:30] senses on a journey. A visual journey if

[3:32] you're a painter, an auditory journey if

[3:35] you're a musician,

[3:37] your

[3:37] taste if you're a chef. An artist uses

[3:41] one or more of

[3:43] our faculties of perception and takes

[3:45] you on a on a journey not outwards into

[3:49] [music] the world, but inwards

[3:52] towards the source of perception. And

[3:55] And the painter Paul Cézanne was very

[3:57] explicit about about this. He said,

[3:59] "What What I want to do when people look

[4:02] at my paintings," he said, "I want to

[4:04] give people a taste of nature's

[4:05] eternity.

[4:07] I don't just want to reproduce the

[4:08] mountain that I'm looking at. I want to

[4:10] give them a taste." And he was very

[4:13] explicit about it. He said, "Everything

[4:15] we see of a mountain is just fleeting

[4:17] perceptions. All we know of the world is

[4:19] fleeting perceptions. And yet at the

[4:21] same time there is something

[4:24] something real in nature that persists,

[4:26] something that lasts." And he he was

[4:28] very explicit about his work. He said,

[4:30] "My The purpose of my work is to use the

[4:33] elements of nature, in his case color

[4:35] and form, to use that to evoke in his

[4:38] viewer this what he called the taste of

[4:40] nature's eternity, that that that which

[4:42] is eternal behind

[4:45] our

[4:46] fleeting, changing perceptions. And that

[4:49] I would suggest is the the ultimate role

[4:52] of the artist. That's what great artists

[4:54] do. They they

[4:56] take our senses on a journey, but the

[4:59] purpose is to in a way

[5:03] take us beyond [music] sense perception

[5:07] to the reality that lies, as it were,

[5:09] behind

[5:12] the appearance of the world. What is it

[5:15] that is appearing to us as the world?

[5:18] What is that reality that our sense

[5:20] perceptions render as the world? An

[5:24] artist's job, the great artists, I would

[5:27] suggest that their ultimate function is

[5:29] to give people access to that. So, now

[5:32] to to answer your question, what what

[5:34] was I trying to do in in in in my

[5:36] studio? Well, in my own small way,

[5:39] that's what I was trying to do.

[5:41] Now, what's the common name for that

[5:45] taste of nature's eternity?

[5:48] beauty.

[5:49] That's what the experience of beauty is.

[5:52] The

[5:53] the collapse of the the veil of

[5:56] appearances

[5:57] and the revelation of the reality that

[5:59] lies behind

[6:01] the appearance. That is the experience

[6:04] of beauty.

[6:05] And that's the experience that an artist

[6:06] is trying to precipitate in their their

[6:09] viewer, their reader, their listener,

[6:11] and and so on. And that

[6:13] in my own way was what I was trying to

[6:15] do

[6:16] in my studio. It's exactly the same that

[6:18] I'm trying to do now through but

[6:21] words are my medium rather than than

[6:23] clay.

[6:24] >> Do you miss um getting your hands dirty?

[6:27] >> I do. Yes. Yes, I do.

[6:31] And uh I suspect that over the next few

[6:34] years

[6:35] my wife and I have just moved to rural

[6:38] Devon in the southwest of England

[6:41] to a farm, a little farm. And and I

[6:43] suspect that over the next couple of

[6:44] years I will build a little studio and

[6:47] start making pots again on a on a small

[6:48] scale. Yes, I do. I I miss I miss making

[6:51] things with my hands, yeah.

[6:53] >> Making pots and bowls meant spending a

[6:56] lot of time in a studio. And now you're

[6:58] with people hearing their questions and

[7:00] seeing how the teaching lands.

[7:04] What has that more immediate

[7:06] relationship been like for you?

[7:08] >> Yes. Yes, it's true. When I was in my

[7:11] studio, I was

[7:13] either on my own or with one or two

[7:16] assistants. So, as you say, it's a it's

[7:18] a solitary

[7:19] activity. So, I would stay in my studio,

[7:21] but my pots would then go out all over

[7:25] the world.

[7:26] And um over the years I I was making

[7:28] pots for, I don't know, 30 or so years

[7:31] at um

[7:32] probably tens of thousands of people

[7:34] must have uh

[7:36] seen them and many of them purchased

[7:39] them. And I I I know many of them still

[7:41] many people still use my pots today.

[7:44] But, I wouldn't accompany my pots around

[7:47] the world. I I I stayed home in my

[7:49] studio. My pots went out around the

[7:51] world. The difference is that now, as

[7:53] you say, is that I don't stay home in my

[7:55] studio. I

[7:56] I go out around the world. So, yes,

[7:59] there's a there's a difference. What's

[8:00] very nice about what I What The both

[8:03] activities are profoundly rewarding but

[8:06] for very different reasons.

[8:08] Now, of course, I'm relating

[8:11] directly with people. You have a

[8:12] conversation and you see the response

[8:15] immediately. And then you can tailor

[8:17] your response. You can have a

[8:18] conversation.

[8:20] The conversation you have as an artist

[8:22] is not so direct. You make a piece of

[8:24] work in your

[8:25] studio. The You stay in your studio.

[8:27] Your piece of work may go off to Japan

[8:30] or America.

[8:31] And it has its effect on the viewer or

[8:34] the user, but you don't get to see that

[8:36] effect. So, you It's not such an

[8:38] immediate conversation. It's still a

[8:40] conversation, but it's not so direct and

[8:43] immediate. One of the things I love

[8:44] about what I do now is this immediacy of

[8:47] being able to

[8:48] to be with people face-to-face and have

[8:50] conversations with them.

[8:52] >> Rupert, in your recent teaching, I think

[8:55] I hear more about being God, love, and

[8:58] devotion and less of the philosophical

[9:00] language of consciousness.

[9:03] Has the teaching changed or

[9:05] are you just approaching the same thing

[9:07] through a different door?

[9:10] >> The essential understanding hasn't

[9:13] changed, but you're absolutely right.

[9:15] The expression of the teaching has

[9:17] changed.

[9:18] I grew up in in the um

[9:22] classical Vedanta tradition. So, my

[9:26] early The early vocabulary in which I

[9:30] first heard about these ideas and began

[9:32] to explore them and express them was the

[9:34] classical of the

[9:37] literature, which as you say

[9:40] uses the words um

[9:42] consciousness, awareness, and

[9:44] but um

[9:46] I'm really a

[9:48] So, although I'm a Vedantin on the

[9:49] outside, I'm really a Sufi on the

[9:51] inside. And I think as I speak and write

[9:55] about these matters more,

[9:57] I've in a way I've kind of

[10:00] liberated myself

[10:03] from my tradition, from the tradition in

[10:05] which I

[10:07] grew up and explored these matters and

[10:09] first heard about these matters and

[10:11] explored them. So, I've

[10:12] it's like a

[10:14] it's like when you're learning a craft,

[10:16] you have to you have to subject yourself

[10:18] to the discipline of learning a craft.

[10:20] And that's a very disciplined or any art

[10:22] form, that's a very disciplined work,

[10:24] but once you've mastered your

[10:27] your craft, you can let go.

[10:30] You can let go of the rules, you can let

[10:32] go of the language, you begin to develop

[10:34] your own language. You then begin to

[10:36] take off.

[10:38] And I think over the last

[10:41] three or four years, I've noticed I've

[10:43] done that. For instance, you're you're

[10:44] absolutely right that

[10:46] I tend to speak more and more of being

[10:49] and less in terms of awareness. It That

[10:51] wasn't something I calculated. I just

[10:54] notice. I still do use the words

[10:56] awareness and consciousness, but to me

[10:58] they're a little

[11:00] they're a little more philosophical, a

[11:01] little more clinical. I I can do that if

[11:04] I

[11:05] if I need to, but I've noticed uh

[11:08] I think speaking of being it I feel that

[11:10] it's more direct, it speaks more to the

[11:12] heart. Uh there's less conceptual

[11:17] um

[11:18] Nobody would ever argue with you

[11:21] about what being is. There isn't a

[11:23] raging debate going on

[11:26] in culture about what being is.

[11:29] I read recently there are

[11:31] uh is it 220

[11:34] different views about what consciousness

[11:36] is?

[11:36] >> [laughter]

[11:37] >> That's right.

[11:38] >> I don't think there are 220 views about

[11:40] what being is.

[11:42] Being doesn't lend itself to

[11:45] intellectual analysis and argument.

[11:49] If

[11:50] If you say to

[11:51] someone on the street, do do you know

[11:53] what consciousness is? You know, most

[11:54] people I mean, not in these circles, but

[11:56] most people never thought about

[11:58] consciousness, but

[12:00] if you stop someone on the street and

[12:01] say to to them, do

[12:03] do you feel that you exist?

[12:06] Do you feel that you are? Can you say of

[12:08] your experience simply

[12:10] I am.

[12:11] Everyone will pause and go, yeah, of

[12:13] course. Of course I am. Of course. So,

[12:15] it using the word being it it avoids the

[12:19] kind of

[12:19] conceptual quagmire that it's easy to

[12:22] get into speaking about consciousness

[12:24] and the nature of consciousness.

[12:27] So, I find it as I say, I haven't

[12:28] calculated this. It wasn't a I didn't

[12:31] work it out, but I just noticed more and

[12:32] more that I speak more and more about

[12:35] being. I think it's because it comes it

[12:37] comes it it's it's my natural language.

[12:41] Consciousness in a way

[12:43] consciousness, awareness, this was a a

[12:44] language I inherited from my tradition,

[12:46] for which I deeply indebted to the

[12:49] classical Advaita tradition. I love it

[12:51] and love the teachers that I had and

[12:53] but I inherited that from my

[12:55] I took it on from the outside. Whereas,

[12:59] you know, I grew up I was in English

[13:00] boarding school for 10 years. We used to

[13:02] speak about we used to sing hymns and

[13:04] psalms about God's being every single

[13:07] day in school for for 10 years. I I was

[13:09] kind of brought up

[13:12] thinking about God's being, infinite

[13:13] being. So, it it's much closer to me

[13:15] that language. It's much more deeply in

[13:16] me.

[13:17] And I think it's more in a way it's more

[13:20] true to to me to use that language. I'm

[13:23] more at home there.

[13:26] >> Your own path took you through several

[13:28] religious traditions and practices, but

[13:31] you've said other people don't need to

[13:33] follow that same route.

[13:35] What did those traditions make possible

[13:36] for you, and when might someone benefit

[13:39] from them

[13:40] rather than going straight to this

[13:43] exploration of being?

[13:45] >> I think that all traditions, all

[13:48] pathways, all all methods,

[13:52] all practices, sooner or later,

[13:56] more or less directly, take you to the

[13:59] recognition of the nature of your being.

[14:04] What is that recognition?

[14:07] Peace and happiness are the nature of

[14:09] your being,

[14:10] and you share your being with everyone

[14:12] and everything.

[14:14] I think that's it. If you took the last

[14:17] 3,000 years,

[14:20] everything that has been written and

[14:21] said in all the religious and

[14:23] contemplative traditions, and distill

[14:26] them into a sentence,

[14:29] that would be one possible succinct

[14:32] summary of the entire tradition. Peace

[14:34] and happiness are the nature of your

[14:36] being,

[14:37] and you share your being with everyone

[14:38] and everything.

[14:41] So,

[14:45] that is all that is necessary to be

[14:47] recognized. Now, how we come to that

[14:50] recognition varies enormously from

[14:53] person to person.

[14:55] I went through

[14:57] um

[14:57] >> [clears throat]

[14:58] >> mantra meditation, the classical Advaita

[15:00] tradition. I spent a lot of time in the

[15:03] Sufi tradition, the Mevlevi turning, the

[15:05] Gurdjieff movements, then I came across

[15:07] the direct path through Francis Lucille,

[15:10] and he introduced me to Atman and

[15:11] Krishna Menon, and

[15:13] and I eventually came to this what I

[15:15] sometimes call the pathless path, which

[15:17] is

[15:18] abidance in being through through this

[15:20] journey through the progressive path and

[15:22] direct path. That was

[15:24] necessary for me.

[15:25] But I don't think that that particular

[15:27] trajectory is necessary for everybody.

[15:31] Most people have to go on some journey.

[15:35] Uh some kind of progressive path,

[15:37] mindfulness meditation

[15:40] um

[15:42] very often through self-inquiry,

[15:43] inquiring of what it is that knows or is

[15:46] aware of your experience.

[15:47] Most people go have to go through some

[15:50] journey

[15:51] practice or or methods to come to their

[15:53] being.

[15:55] But I don't feel that everybody needs to

[15:57] go the way that I go. And when I'm

[15:59] speaking with people, I try and go there

[16:02] straight away. That that's really what

[16:03] the direct path is. You you just go

[16:05] there straight away. And it's only if

[16:08] someone has difficulty

[16:10] in going directly from the content of

[16:12] their experience all the way back to

[16:14] their true nature, that you then

[16:15] interpose more gradual steps. And I

[16:20] think that's the way all the traditions

[16:22] um

[16:23] arose. I think that that the teachers in

[16:27] the past who had this direct recognition

[16:30] of the nature of their being would have

[16:32] tried to take their

[16:33] their students, their listeners, their

[16:35] their disciples directly there. And only

[16:38] when they were met with objections and

[16:40] questions, difficulties, would they then

[16:43] have elaborated

[16:45] more progressive means. For instance,

[16:47] let's say somebody is suffering

[16:50] terribly.

[16:51] And to go in one step

[16:55] from their suffering all the way back to

[16:57] their being

[16:59] would be yes, in theory, possible, but

[17:02] in practice just too big a step. The

[17:04] pull of their suffering would be too

[17:06] strong.

[17:07] And the teacher would recognize this and

[17:09] say, "Okay."

[17:11] He wouldn't literally work it out like

[17:12] this. It I think it happens more

[17:14] spontaneously, but the

[17:15] the teacher might say, "Okay,

[17:17] I give your attention to your breath."

[17:20] Unlike the

[17:22] your suffering,

[17:24] your breath is a is a neutral

[17:26] transparent

[17:28] experience. It It's It's not all the way

[17:31] back to your being. You're still giving

[17:32] your attention to an object, which

[17:35] you're doing all day, every day, so it's

[17:36] not that big a confrontation with what

[17:39] you're already doing. You're just taking

[17:40] your attention off your thoughts and

[17:42] putting it on your breath. It's just a

[17:43] small shift. And because your breath is

[17:46] um neutral,

[17:48] it's easy to give your attention to your

[17:49] breath. And it's also your breath is

[17:51] transparent, so it already has

[17:53] something of a foretaste of the

[17:55] transparency of your being in it.

[17:58] They don't say, "Well, I give your

[18:00] attention to the to the bulldozer

[18:01] outside your bedroom window." That's

[18:04] They choose a a subtle object, a mantra,

[18:07] a sound, a flame, the breath, something

[18:10] that that that the openness of the sky,

[18:12] something that already that something

[18:13] that

[18:14] >> [music]

[18:14] >> it's an object. So, you can still give

[18:17] your to the

[18:18] to an object of experience. It's not a

[18:20] complete turning around of attention.

[18:23] So, in that sense, it's not too big a

[18:24] confrontation with what you're already

[18:26] doing, but it's a halfway step.

[18:29] And then your attention settles with

[18:31] your breath. And then there's just And

[18:33] you once the person has steadied on

[18:35] their attention on their breath, then

[18:36] you can ask,

[18:37] "Okay, what is it that is aware of your

[18:39] breath?" And you can help them take the

[18:41] step back. And that That's just an

[18:43] example, but I think that's how the

[18:45] traditions became so elaborate. All

[18:47] these different methods and pathways and

[18:49] practice, they were elaborated

[18:50] spontaneously

[18:52] by teachers in response to

[18:55] their students' difficulties and

[18:58] objections and and questions.

[19:01] And I do the same thing, [music] really.

[19:03] I try and take someone directly to give

[19:06] them a taste of their being.

[19:09] But if for one reason or or that that's

[19:11] too difficult, I'll suggest

[19:14] something a little less

[19:16] direct.

[19:18] >> If I begin to recognize that I share my

[19:21] being with everyone, what responsibility

[19:24] does that give me toward other people's

[19:26] suffering?

[19:28] Does it call me to devote my life to

[19:30] helping others, or can that

[19:32] understanding be expressed in an

[19:35] ordinary life in your view?

[19:38] >> I don't feel that someone who has

[19:43] recognized the

[19:45] inherent peace of their true nature

[19:49] and who feels deeply that they share

[19:51] their being with everyone and everything

[19:53] has

[19:55] an obligation

[19:57] to share that understanding in society.

[19:59] I I don't feel they do, or at least

[20:03] I don't feel they have an obligation to

[20:04] share that understanding formally.

[20:08] Some people do.

[20:10] I

[20:11] I do.

[20:12] Um

[20:15] But some people don't. Some people who

[20:18] have this recognition of the nature of

[20:20] their being just

[20:22] go home,

[20:23] go back to their life.

[20:25] They don't have a mission in the world.

[20:27] They don't write about it. They don't

[20:28] teach. They don't start a YouTube

[20:30] channel.

[20:31] They

[20:33] look after their family if they have a

[20:34] family. They They go to work if they

[20:36] need to work. They're a They're a quiet

[20:38] light in their community. They never

[20:41] speak about these matters unless someone

[20:43] asks them a question, in which case they

[20:44] respond, but there's no

[20:46] formal teaching or no formal expression.

[20:50] And I think that's just as valid a

[20:52] contribution to the world

[20:54] as someone who goes out with more of a

[20:57] mission to express this understanding

[20:59] explicitly.

[21:02] Eckhart Tolle has a beautiful

[21:04] phrase for for these people. He calls

[21:06] them the the frequency holders.

[21:09] The people that don't choose to go out

[21:12] into the world

[21:13] and express this understanding. Of

[21:15] course, they express it just by virtue

[21:17] of

[21:18] being. They they exude peace.

[21:21] And anyone that comes near them

[21:24] catches that peace like you catch a cold

[21:27] if you go too close to somebody with a

[21:28] cold. It's contagious.

[21:31] But they don't have any mission in the

[21:33] world. And I feel those people

[21:36] contribute as much

[21:38] to our society subliminally

[21:42] as do those of us

[21:44] like myself who go out more actively.

[21:51] >> We'll be right back after a few

[21:52] announcements.

[22:08] Rupert, let me switch gears, explore

[22:10] this this theme in a slightly different

[22:14] direction, and ask you about the Rupert

[22:17] Spira Foundation.

[22:19] Because the work spans a couple of areas

[22:23] about access and understanding of these

[22:26] teachings,

[22:27] children's books and working with

[22:29] children, and then I understand this

[22:31] human trafficking

[22:33] element. And I wonder if you would talk

[22:35] about

[22:37] how you were motivated to find those

[22:40] expressions as as part of this this

[22:42] topic.

[22:43] >> Yes. Well, the the Rupert Spira

[22:44] Foundation was set up several years ago

[22:46] here in in America. People approached

[22:49] me, and

[22:50] I didn't know anything about 501(c)(3)

[22:52] non-profit organizations. They told me

[22:54] about it. So, we set up this

[22:56] this foundation with with a whose

[22:58] purpose was really to make the non-dual

[23:01] understanding um as widely and as

[23:04] inexpensively

[23:06] available as possible.

[23:09] >> Hey folks, it's Steve here in the edited

[23:11] version just cutting in to define

[23:14] non-duality so we're all on the same

[23:16] page.

[23:17] That word means not two. It shows up

[23:20] across spiritual and mystical

[23:21] traditions. It really just means

[23:23] oneness.

[23:25] In Rupert's teaching, that idea is that

[23:27] beneath our different experiences, we

[23:29] aren't ultimately separate beings. We

[23:32] share one reality which he calls

[23:34] consciousness or being in this podcast.

[23:37] That's the understanding he's inviting

[23:38] us to explore through our own experience

[23:40] and

[23:41] for a fuller introduction, Rupert has a

[23:43] 6-minute video on his website. Go to

[23:46] rupertspear.com/introduction

[23:49] and choose introduction to non-duality.

[23:51] All right, back to the conversation.

[23:56] >> And it's taken us

[23:57] quite a while to get going, but now we

[23:59] are getting going. At the moment, there

[24:01] are there are three main areas.

[24:04] One, we're making a film. I've just

[24:07] written or I'm in the middle of writing

[24:08] a film script and the purpose of the

[24:10] film script

[24:11] is to introduce this this understanding

[24:14] to the mainstream.

[24:16] In fact, there was a man here um

[24:19] he was the director of the very

[24:21] well-known animation Ice Age, uh Chris

[24:24] Wedge, I think. He came to one of my

[24:26] retreats here a couple of years ago and

[24:28] I was sitting with him at lunch one day

[24:30] and I was telling him about my desire to

[24:32] make a film with the foundation and I

[24:34] asked him, "What what do you think is

[24:35] the best genre

[24:37] for expressing this understanding?" He

[24:39] said, "Rupert, don't make a

[24:40] documentary."

[24:42] He said, "People don't go to the cinema

[24:43] to be informed. They go to the cinema to

[24:45] be inspired. Make a feature film." That

[24:48] was a great conversation. So, we are

[24:51] making a a feature film. I'm just

[24:53] writing the script at the moment and

[24:55] working with a

[24:56] very wonderful Estonian film director

[24:59] Peter Rebane who came to one of my

[25:01] retreats in Italy last year and we met.

[25:03] So, that's one thing we're doing. I I'm

[25:05] making a feature film to try to bring

[25:07] this understanding to the mainstream.

[25:09] >> [snorts]

[25:09] >> The second thing

[25:12] I'm writing a series of children's

[25:13] books. The first one is already out.

[25:16] It's called I Am Always I.

[25:18] >> [snorts]

[25:18] >> Um

[25:21] I'm not always happy. I don't always

[25:22] feel free. I'm not always lonely, but I

[25:24] am always me. It's a

[25:27] poem really, beautifully illustrated by

[25:29] an illustrator um

[25:31] Polish Suzanne Selick. Beautifully

[25:34] illustrated book, really drawing

[25:37] children to the ever-present I, the

[25:39] ever-present being behind the

[25:43] the continually changing experience. And

[25:45] we've given away, I don't know how many,

[25:46] 15,000 copies of of this book to to

[25:49] children in the last year or so.

[25:52] And we've got another book in the

[25:53] pipeline, The Blue Sky of Happiness.

[25:56] The Blue Sky of Happiness behind the

[25:57] clouds that's always there behind the

[25:59] clouds of experience even if you can't

[26:01] always feel it. And then there's an

[26:03] another one, Our Shared Being, about

[26:05] sharing our being with everyone.

[26:07] So, that's another um

[26:09] another project ongoing project we're

[26:11] doing to again try to bring this

[26:13] understanding to a

[26:14] to

[26:15] the younger generation for

[26:18] 4 to 12 years old.

[26:21] And then we've also worked quite closely

[26:26] with an an organization called Marici,

[26:29] run by a very good friend of mine who

[26:32] set up an anti-sex trafficking

[26:35] organization in India

[26:37] uh three or four years ago and we work

[26:39] very closely with them.

[26:41] Um so, those are the the three, in fact

[26:43] we have coming to visit us in Devon next

[26:46] month. We have six of his survivors.

[26:47] These These are young very young women

[26:50] who have been rescued

[26:51] um

[26:52] on the streets of Mumbai and and and

[26:55] that they build shelter homes for them

[26:56] and then we're we're helping with an

[26:58] educational program in the shelter

[26:59] homes. Again, bringing the non-dual

[27:01] understanding

[27:03] into their lives. And and and when I say

[27:05] the non-dual understanding, that sounds

[27:06] a bit clinical. What I mean specifically

[27:08] is is

[27:09] trying to

[27:10] help these young women who have been

[27:13] through the most terrible

[27:15] circumstances experiences to try to help

[27:18] them access um a place in themselves

[27:20] that that

[27:21] um

[27:23] is completely free of any trauma.

[27:26] There's a place in themselves that has

[27:28] never been hurt or traumatized.

[27:31] Um so we're we're trying to help them

[27:33] develop

[27:34] programs which they will

[27:37] that they're now expanding into 27

[27:38] cities around the world and building

[27:40] safe houses in in all of the shelter

[27:42] homes in all of these cities. And we're

[27:45] helping them with an educational program

[27:47] in in all of those houses.

[27:50] >> In my own Zen practice, when I look for

[27:53] a fixed separate self, it becomes harder

[27:56] to pin down.

[27:58] How does that fit with what you mean by

[28:01] being?

[28:03] Am I looking for the wrong kind of

[28:04] thing?

[28:06] >> It's true that if you look for the self

[28:12] then it will always seem um elusive,

[28:16] mysterious.

[28:21] You'll never be able to find it, never

[28:22] be able to grasp it.

[28:24] Because

[28:25] the self is

[28:28] what you're looking from. It's not what

[28:30] you're looking for.

[28:32] So if you're looking for a self, you are

[28:35] destined to failure.

[28:38] Because anything you find will be an

[28:40] object

[28:41] of your

[28:42] experience. And you will be the the

[28:44] subject, the knower of that object. So

[28:48] to look for a self is really a

[28:50] contradiction in terms.

[28:53] And so, it it would be good to

[28:54] understand that.

[28:56] It it it would be like looking for the

[28:58] self is like traveling around the world

[29:00] in search of your eyes. You know,

[29:02] you're destined to failure.

[29:05] Better to understand that at the

[29:06] beginning of your journey than to travel

[29:09] all the way around the world and get

[29:11] back home only to realize I can never

[29:13] see my eyes because the eyes, relatively

[29:16] speaking,

[29:17] are the ones that see.

[29:19] So, it

[29:21] >> [clears throat]

[29:23] >> So, so but if we're looking for the

[29:25] self, then yes, the self is mysterious.

[29:27] The self is elusive. Anything you find,

[29:30] >> [music]

[29:30] >> it's not that.

[29:33] But,

[29:35] being

[29:36] is not elusive. On the contrary,

[29:41] everything apart from being

[29:43] is elusive. I mean, take the world, for

[29:46] instance.

[29:48] When you look for the world,

[29:51] what do you find? Perceptions.

[29:54] All anybody has ever known of the world

[29:58] is perceptions.

[30:00] And how long does a perception last?

[30:03] I mean, perceptions, they're fleeting.

[30:06] The world is mysterious. The world is

[30:09] insubstantial. The world is fleeting.

[30:16] If you look for your body, again, the

[30:19] our only actual experience of the body

[30:21] is a flow of sensations and perceptions.

[30:23] That's all that anybody has ever known

[30:26] or or indeed could ever know about the

[30:28] body. So, the idea of a solid, permanent

[30:32] body is a concept

[30:34] that doesn't correlate with experience.

[30:36] So, it's not

[30:38] ourself, it

[30:40] if we can be permitted to call it a

[30:42] self. It's not our self that is fleeting

[30:44] and mysterious. No, our self

[30:48] is the only thing which is, of course,

[30:50] not a thing, which is not fleeting and

[30:53] mysterious. Everything in the world, the

[30:56] body, the mind, God, everything else is

[31:00] fleeting and mysterious. Being is the

[31:03] only thing, which is not a thing, that

[31:05] we are absolutely certain of.

[31:09] >> [music]

[31:11] >> If the Buddha turned up now

[31:14] and said,

[31:15] "Steve,

[31:16] you are not."

[31:20] What would you say to him?

[31:22] >> I think I would argue it a little bit.

[31:24] >> say, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry, [laughter]

[31:27] but I I disagree with you. Even, you

[31:29] know,

[31:30] I say the Buddha because one, he's your

[31:32] tradition, but you know, he he's, you

[31:34] know, one of the great authorities.

[31:35] >> Yes, right.

[31:36] >> Even if the greatest authority were to

[31:39] say to you, "You are not." Your own

[31:42] experience would trump his authority

[31:45] because you are that certain.

[31:47] >> [clears throat]

[31:48] >> If If the Buddha were to say to you,

[31:50] "The world doesn't exist." You'd say,

[31:52] "Yeah, I I I understand the world

[31:54] doesn't exist the way it seems to. All I

[31:57] know of it is a series of fleeting

[31:59] perceptions." You You'd go,

[32:00] but if he said you are not, you would

[32:02] say, "No, I know for absolute certain

[32:06] absolute certainty that I am."

[32:09] And actually, that's the only thing we

[32:12] know for absolute with absolute

[32:14] certainty.

[32:15] So,

[32:18] if we're looking for the self as an

[32:19] object, yes, we're destined to failure.

[32:22] It's It's It's always going to slip

[32:24] away. It's always going to be elusive.

[32:25] The best we can say is

[32:27] it's not that. It's not that. It's not

[32:29] that. But,

[32:30] it's not that is not a satisfactory

[32:33] on we It It's not enough just to know

[32:36] what we are not. It's necessary to know

[32:39] what we are.

[32:41] It is that knowledge, self-knowledge,

[32:44] that brings us to peace.

[32:46] >> Okay, Rupert, the um I'm just going to

[32:49] have a little fun with this and I I

[32:51] don't know if you've gotten a chance to

[32:53] um

[32:54] tackle this question, so

[32:56] I hope it's new or newish, but

[32:59] an artificial intelligence model can

[33:02] produce language that sounds

[33:04] really remarkably thoughtful. Um do you

[33:07] think it could ever have a subjective

[33:09] experience of being in the sense that

[33:11] we've been discussing?

[33:13] >> No, I don't think so.

[33:16] I don't Those AI AI models respond the

[33:20] way they do

[33:22] um because that's the way they've been

[33:23] programmed to respond.

[33:27] Um

[33:29] you know, you you you appear to me now

[33:33] to be conscious.

[33:35] But

[33:37] um if you were a a robot that had been

[33:40] programmed to have exactly the

[33:42] conversation that you and I have now

[33:44] had,

[33:46] in in other words, the robot had said to

[33:48] me exactly what you've said to me during

[33:51] this conversation, would that somehow

[33:53] indicate

[33:55] that the robot

[33:57] was having internal conscious

[33:58] experience, that it was aware of being?

[34:01] No, it says nothing. It's ability to

[34:04] respond to ideas

[34:07] says nothing about whether it has the

[34:09] subjective experience of being.

[34:12] So, no, I don't think a computer will

[34:14] ever have the subjective experience of

[34:16] being.

[34:18] Uh

[34:19] only

[34:20] you see, I think it's

[34:22] I think the whole debate

[34:25] is um

[34:27] founded

[34:29] on a misunderstanding.

[34:31] And I think the misunderstanding is a

[34:32] very simple one. It's actually the

[34:33] foundation of our world culture.

[34:36] And the foundation is is this.

[34:39] That most people feel that

[34:41] being a body

[34:43] is their primary experience.

[34:46] And that being aware is a function of

[34:49] that body.

[34:50] Like breathing or digesting. That's the

[34:54] model on which our world culture is

[34:56] based. We are primarily something

[34:58] physical

[35:00] and consciousness is an epiphenomenon of

[35:03] that physical system. That's a way of

[35:05] putting it scientifically. But but in

[35:07] everyday experience, how does that

[35:09] translate? It translates to most people

[35:11] believing

[35:12] and feeling, my primary experience is

[35:15] being a body and consciousness is

[35:17] something that I as a body have. Well,

[35:20] if that's your

[35:22] fundamental idea

[35:24] and even if people don't formulate it in

[35:26] that way, that's the the core idea that

[35:29] informs our world culture.

[35:32] Then it In other words, if this body

[35:35] this collection of atoms and molecules

[35:37] has consciousness as one of its

[35:40] functions, then it would make sense that

[35:43] one day we may be able to create an

[35:46] artificial collection of atoms and

[35:48] molecules called a computer that also

[35:50] has consciousness as one of its

[35:52] functions. But I think it's a

[35:54] misunderstanding because being a body is

[35:56] not our primary experience. Being aware

[36:00] is our primary experience. And it's not

[36:02] a body that has the experience of being

[36:04] aware. It's awareness that has the

[36:06] experience of being a body.

[36:08] So it's consciousness that is conscious.

[36:11] It's not a body that is conscious.

[36:14] Only consciousness is conscious. So not

[36:16] only will computers never be conscious

[36:19] human beings are not conscious.

[36:22] Consciousness is conscious.

[36:25] Dogs are not conscious. Consciousness is

[36:28] conscious. Consciousness

[36:30] um looks through the perceiving faculty

[36:34] of a dog or a human being or or a bat or

[36:37] whatever and experiences reality

[36:39] according to the limitations of those

[36:41] perceiving faculties, but it's never the

[36:44] entity that is conscious. It's always

[36:46] consciousness that is conscious. So so

[36:48] no, I don't think AI will ever become

[36:49] conscious.

[36:51] And I had I think the whole debate is

[36:52] founded on a misunderstanding.

[36:58] >> We'll be right back after a few

[36:59] announcements.

[37:17] So you've been coming to the Garrison

[37:19] Institute for years now and I was just

[37:21] watching the friendships around the

[37:22] dining hall. What's it like to see that

[37:24] community grow with people returning

[37:27] year after year?

[37:28] >> Yes, I I think

[37:31] the feedback I receive from the universe

[37:34] is the quality of of friendship and

[37:38] engagement from the community. It's when

[37:40] I look around the

[37:41] the dining hall and see the quality of

[37:44] friendship amongst the group and as you

[37:46] say the people who come back year after

[37:48] year that that's the in a way the

[37:50] feedback that I get

[37:52] from the universe to let me know that

[37:54] what I'm doing is

[37:56] of value. And we're this week we're

[37:58] about 130

[38:00] or so people and about 50% come back

[38:04] regularly. They've been coming for many

[38:05] years and 50% are are new which is just

[38:09] exactly the right balance. The old

[38:12] friends give the sense of family,

[38:15] friendliness and and and then the new

[38:17] people that come in ensure that we don't

[38:20] get clicky or cultish. They they bring

[38:23] in new energy and new questions. So,

[38:26] that's very important for a community

[38:27] always to have new people coming in so

[38:30] that it doesn't get so that people are

[38:31] always um asking questions and and not

[38:34] taking anything for granted.

[38:38] >> What's it like to actually spend a week

[38:40] on retreat with you?

[38:42] Are you exploring one central

[38:44] recognition in different ways and

[38:47] I guess I'm curious about how people's

[38:49] questions shape what happens next.

[38:54] >> I

[38:55] people often think that someone in

[38:58] my place, a teacher for want of a better

[39:00] term, comes to a retreat like this with

[39:03] a

[39:05] a vast body of

[39:06] esoteric knowledge which they then

[39:09] disseminate throughout the week.

[39:12] It

[39:13] it couldn't be further from my

[39:15] experience. I come

[39:18] to a a retreat like this with very

[39:20] little

[39:21] knowledge. I don't come with I don't

[39:23] prepare at all.

[39:25] I start on the first evening with a very

[39:27] simple

[39:28] guided meditation. I'm aware that

[39:31] probably 50% of the people I I know them

[39:33] well, so they're familiar with the

[39:35] language, but I know there are

[39:37] probably a few people that have

[39:38] don't even know quite what I mean by the

[39:40] word awareness. So, so I go very very

[39:43] slowly, very simply, just drawing

[39:45] attention to the

[39:46] the fact of being or the fact of being

[39:48] aware.

[39:49] So, the first few meditations are like

[39:51] that, very simple, very experiential.

[39:53] And then actually this afternoon we'll

[39:55] have our first conversation.

[39:57] And then I'll begin to and I'll

[39:58] encourage the newcomers to ask

[40:00] questions.

[40:02] And that will give me a sense of

[40:04] what where I'm losing people.

[40:07] And if I'm losing people, if they don't

[40:09] understand, I consider that

[40:11] my responsibility, not theirs.

[40:14] So, I then get a sense during the

[40:16] conversation of what's not clear to

[40:19] people. Why didn't somebody go all the

[40:21] way to the peace of that true nature

[40:23] this morning? Why do they end up in a

[40:24] boring blank state? And okay, so then

[40:27] tomorrow morning, the meditation will

[40:29] expe- so I'll address their question

[40:31] rationally, but tomorrow morning in the

[40:33] meditation I'll then

[40:34] experientially.

[40:36] So, the retreats are I don't have an

[40:38] agenda. I don't have a

[40:40] a syllabus. I feel people, listen to

[40:43] them, and in a way that the attendees

[40:45] kind of guide where we go.

[40:48] But

[40:49] all I'm really trying to do, one way or

[40:52] another, more or less directly, is to

[40:56] take

[40:58] people in that not not to tell them how

[41:00] things are, but to give them the tools

[41:03] to discover for themselves

[41:06] that the nature of their being is peace,

[41:08] that their being is fulfilled, the

[41:10] experience of happiness that they've

[41:11] been seeking out in the world for

[41:13] decades.

[41:14] The reason they they're on a retreat is

[41:16] because they didn't find it out there.

[41:19] So, I'm just trying to give people the

[41:20] tools to find that peace in themselves.

[41:23] That's the first thing.

[41:25] And then secondly, to to recognize and

[41:27] feel that they share their being with

[41:29] everyone

[41:30] and everything.

[41:31] That's that's really it. That's all I'm

[41:34] trying to do.

[41:35] And then I elaborate the teaching and

[41:37] the methods and the pathways and the

[41:39] practices and the meditations depending

[41:41] on where people

[41:43] have difficulties. And so, I get the

[41:44] feedback in the

[41:46] Q&A sessions, and that's what then

[41:48] initiates the next meditation.

[41:51] So, it's very spontaneous.

[41:54] >> For folks who can't come on retreat,

[41:56] tell me about Luminous. Um it's your new

[41:59] app. What's that offer, and how's that

[42:02] fit into the everyday routine?

[42:05] >> Yes, the app uh not many people have the

[42:09] time, the resources, let alone the

[42:11] inclination to come on a week-long

[42:12] retreat and sit for

[42:15] two 1-hour periods in meditation and so

[42:18] on.

[42:19] Um

[42:20] but everyone's got 10 minutes

[42:22] in a day, sitting on a bus to work or or

[42:25] everyone can find 5 or 10 minutes. So,

[42:28] the Luminous app really distills the the

[42:30] understanding into these short 10-minute

[42:34] contemplations.

[42:35] And the idea it it it's free.

[42:38] The idea is just that you can and and

[42:40] it's a free meditation every day. Every

[42:43] day a different 10-minute meditation, 10

[42:45] or approximately 10 minutes. And the

[42:46] idea is just to make the understanding

[42:48] available in these very small,

[42:50] manageable, direct, experiential

[42:54] contemplations that that last about 10

[42:56] minutes and it's it's it's free and and

[42:59] daily. In in time I hope to to develop

[43:01] it, but at the moment it's just one free

[43:04] short meditation every day

[43:06] with the purpose of um sharing the

[43:08] non-dual understanding widely and

[43:11] inexpensively, in particular for those

[43:12] that don't have the resources to come on

[43:14] a retreat or or even to buy a book or

[43:17] that maybe don't particularly like

[43:19] reading but but they're

[43:21] they're happy to to listen to a to a

[43:23] meditation.

[43:30] >> My thanks to Rupert Spira for joining me

[43:32] here at the Garrison Institute. I'm

[43:34] leaving this conversation with his

[43:36] description of someone who's a quiet

[43:37] light in their community.

[43:39] It's an invitation to consider what our

[43:41] understanding looks like in the ordinary

[43:43] relationships of a day.

[43:46] You can explore Rupert's teaching more

[43:47] at rupertspira.com, including the

[43:50] introductory video we mentioned.

[43:52] Thanks for listening to The Common Good.

[43:54] I'm Steve Varley. See you next time.

GI
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Garrison Institute

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Perguntas frequentes

In the Common Good conversation, Spira says that peace and happiness are the nature of your being and that you share this being with everyone and everything. He presents this as the recognition that all contemplative traditions ultimately point toward. The phrase names what remains when the sense of a separate self is seen through.
Spira says human experience moves through thinking, feeling and perceiving, and each can become a pathway back to one's true nature. Thinking corresponds to the path of knowledge, Jnana Yoga, and feeling to the path of devotion, Bhakti Yoga. He argues that perception, the path of the artist, is less commonly recognized in spiritual traditions but is equally valid.
Spira recounts that Paul Cézanne wanted viewers to receive a taste of nature's eternity, not merely a copy of the mountain in front of him. Spira reads this as an aim to evoke, through color and form, the enduring reality behind fleeting perceptions. Spira presents this as the ultimate role of the artist.
Spira defines beauty as the experience in which the veil of appearances collapses and the reality behind appearance is revealed. In this view, beauty is not only pleasant to behold but can open a direct sense of the source of perception. That is why he sees artistic perception as a genuine pathway toward recognition.
Spira says the essential understanding has not changed, but the expression has. He was trained in classical Vedanta, where consciousness and awareness are central terms, and he says he has since loosened from that framing. He describes himself as a Vedantin on the outside and a Sufi on the inside, which is why love and devotion now appear more often in his speaking and writing.
The episode description lists whether artificial intelligence could ever experience consciousness as one of the topics the conversation explores. The transcript excerpt available for this article ends before Spira's fuller answer, so the complete view is best heard in the full episode. The conversation also covers inner peace and responsibility to others.
A practical version is to spend about ten minutes with something beautiful, such as a painting, music, or a handmade bowl, and attend closely to the sensory experience. Notice the moment when the sense of a separate object seems to loosen. This follows Spira's idea that perception can lead inward toward the source of experience.

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