Transcript
[0:00] How long does it take someone to spot a
[0:02] psychopath?
[0:03] >> About 5 seconds. So, most people think a
[0:05] psychopath looks dangerous. [music] They
[0:07] picture the villain in a movie, but
[0:09] that's not how it works in real life.
[0:11] We've done some research in my lab and
[0:12] we found there are certainly some things
[0:14] that you can look for.
[0:15] >> Have they ever done that with lying
[0:16] [music] to figure out if people can spot
[0:18] liars
[0:18] >> thousands of times? If you ask people
[0:20] what's the number one cue that someone
[0:22] is lying to you, they will say they
[0:24] can't look you in the eye. But there's
[0:26] no research to suggest that that is
[0:28] true. However, there's an essential tool
[0:30] for detecting lies which is
[0:32] >> oh
[0:33] >> I know as I study dark personality
[0:35] [music]
[0:35] traits and I found that there's four
[0:37] different elements which are
[0:38] psychopathy, machavelianism, narcissism
[0:40] and sadism. And what we found is that
[0:43] people with higher levels of these
[0:44] traits engaged in duchen smiles which is
[0:47] the activation around the eyes and they
[0:49] also used a lot of hand gestures.
[0:51] >> Where does this come from? Well,
[0:52] research suggests that abuse, cold,
[0:54] uncaring parenting style, but also
[0:57] overvaluation of a child early in life
[1:00] may lead to more narcissistic views
[1:02] later.
[1:02] >> Is there any other fascinating questions
[1:04] you've pursued in your lab?
[1:05] >> Yes, we studied the extent to which
[1:07] [music] psychopathic personality traits
[1:09] could increase the amount of influence
[1:11] you have in government. [music] And
[1:12] also, there are three common mistakes
[1:14] people make when dealing with dark
[1:16] personalities. We'll get into this more
[1:17] later. And I'm wondering if you can spot
[1:19] any of these dark personality traits
[1:20] just by looking at dating profiles.
[1:22] >> All right. So, this is Ryan. This feels
[1:25] like a red flag. And then there's Haley.
[1:27] That would be associated with
[1:28] psychopathy. Okay. David is a brain
[1:32] surgeon. Very impressive. [music] But
[1:33] I'm seeing narcissism.
[1:35] >> So, I guess this begs the question that
[1:37] if someone has those traits you've
[1:38] described, can they be cured?
[1:40] >> So, in my lab, what we found is that
[1:47] This is super interesting to me. My team
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[2:36] Let's get on with the show. [music]
[2:42] Professor Leanne Tenbrink,
[2:45] at the very heart of your motivations,
[2:47] why is it you do what you do? I want to
[2:51] make people less cynical about human
[2:53] nature, which I think might seem kind of
[2:55] paradoxical given what I study because I
[2:58] study deception and dominance and
[3:00] so-called dark personality traits. But I
[3:04] think when you understand those topics
[3:07] and also that there's something you can
[3:09] do about it to like make these
[3:11] interactions better, it's incredibly
[3:14] powerful and can give us a more accurate
[3:17] view of the world.
[3:18] >> And why are the population at large so
[3:21] interested in this these subjects? Cuz
[3:23] they are they're fascinated by it. But
[3:25] what is underneath all of the sort of
[3:26] fascination and the curiosity? What is
[3:28] what are they trying to figure out when
[3:30] people are interested in psychop
[3:31] psychopathy?
[3:32] >> Mhm. You know, I think one of the
[3:34] reasons why we are so interested in
[3:37] psychopathy is because it's quite
[3:38] foreign to us. So, most of us move
[3:41] through life caring about other people,
[3:43] having compassion for other people,
[3:45] telling a few lies here and there, but
[3:47] by and large being very truthful and
[3:49] honest and kind of playing by the rules.
[3:51] And that's like the opposite of
[3:53] psychopathy. And so I think when you are
[3:56] faced with this personality that is
[3:59] quite the opposite of your whole
[4:01] experience of being alive, you're like
[4:04] what's going on? And I want to
[4:06] understand that. I think there's also an
[4:07] element uh there actually is some
[4:10] research on like true crime specifically
[4:12] and why people are interested in true
[4:13] crime. It tends to be a largely uh
[4:16] female audience and some of the
[4:18] motivations that people report is like
[4:20] wanting to understand and wanting to
[4:23] avoid you know becoming victim of these
[4:26] people.
[4:26] >> Is it possible to spot someone who is a
[4:29] psychopath?
[4:31] >> Yes.
[4:32] >> How long according to the research does
[4:35] it take someone to spot a psychopath?
[4:37] >> Okay. You can get a kernel of truth
[4:40] about someone's personality, the extent
[4:42] to which they're psychopathic in about 5
[4:44] seconds.
[4:45] >> Yeah. Explain the research to me.
[4:46] >> Okay. So, this is research by Scott
[4:49] Lillenfeld and his colleagues. And
[4:52] basically what they did is they showed
[4:54] people
[4:56] 5-second, 10-second, and 20 second clips
[4:59] of these interviews where criminal
[5:02] offenders were being interviewed by a
[5:04] psychologist and rated on their
[5:06] psychopathic personality traits. And
[5:08] then you had random psychology student
[5:10] volunteer for research watching 5
[5:13] seconds of that interaction and making a
[5:17] rating of like you know how callous do
[5:19] they seem, how manipulative do they
[5:21] seem? And they found that there is
[5:23] actually a pretty reasonable correlation
[5:26] between the ratings of these like you
[5:29] know naive folks who watch 5 seconds and
[5:32] the trained clinical psychologists who
[5:34] did hours long interviews and gathered
[5:36] collateral information. And so we
[5:40] partnered with Scott and we uh got these
[5:43] videos and we coded the like verbal and
[5:45] non-verbal behavior like are these
[5:47] people behaving differently is and what
[5:49] are people paying attention to? And what
[5:52] we found is that people with higher
[5:53] levels of these traits engaged in these
[5:56] uh what we call duchen smiles. They're
[5:59] um a genuine looking smile but they
[6:03] Yeah, that's the one. Okay. So what
[6:06] distinguishes these two kinds of smiles
[6:08] is the activation around the eyes and
[6:10] it's the creation of like crows feet. So
[6:13] you kind of get you know lines in the
[6:15] corner.
[6:15] >> So a genuine person will have crows feet
[6:17] when they smile. Theoretically
[6:19] >> theoretically
[6:20] >> again they can botox and all kinds of
[6:21] things getting in the way of this but
[6:23] >> yeah.
[6:23] >> Okay. So it's in the eyes.
[6:25] >> Yes. It's totally in the eyes. Whereas a
[6:27] nondouch smile, you know, you have the
[6:30] same kind of upturned lips and maybe
[6:32] you're showing your teeth, you get a big
[6:33] grin, but no activation around the eyes.
[6:36] So, you don't get those crows feet.
[6:37] People who were high in these
[6:39] psychopathic personality traits, they
[6:40] were showing these kinds of like, you
[6:42] know, very happy looking smiles as they
[6:46] were saying really hostile things. So,
[6:48] they were using like happy expressions,
[6:51] hostile language at the same time. So
[6:54] you get this kind of like weird
[6:55] emotional presentation. Um they also
[6:58] used a lot of hand gestures. We called
[7:00] them illustrators. Those seem to be
[7:02] things that just, you know, random
[7:04] observers paid attention to and used to
[7:06] help guide their judgments, which of
[7:08] course is like such little information
[7:10] to go on, but it does suggest that, you
[7:12] know, you can get a sense of someone
[7:14] relatively quickly. But again,
[7:17] personality is something that exists
[7:19] across time and context. So, you're
[7:20] going to get better data the more data
[7:22] that you have across those different
[7:25] times and places.
[7:26] >> I've got two more facial expressions
[7:28] here.
[7:28] >> Mhm. So, this is sadness. So, some of
[7:32] the research that I have done has
[7:33] actually looked at people who've gone on
[7:35] TV and asked for help trying to find
[7:37] their missing loved one. And in some
[7:40] proportion of those cases, they were
[7:42] actually guilty of killing that person.
[7:44] [gasps]
[7:45] So they are like falsely pleading for
[7:47] help for someone they know is never
[7:50] coming back. And
[7:51] >> isn't this your wasn't this your PhD?
[7:52] >> This is my PhD. Yeah.
[7:54] >> What what was your PhD in
[7:55] >> in psychology? Uh but I was in a more
[7:58] like forensic context at that time. So I
[8:00] was uh studying behavioral cues to
[8:03] emotional highstakes deception.
[8:06] >> I trying to spot someone who was say in
[8:09] the media saying I can't find my wife
[8:11] please help me. a thousand%.
[8:13] >> But they had killed their own wife.
[8:15] >> Yes. Yeah. So I was comparing a bunch of
[8:17] those cases to a bunch of cases where
[8:20] people genuinely had no idea where their
[8:23] missing loved one had gone and they
[8:24] were, you know, desperately pleading to
[8:27] have them home. And this is one of the
[8:30] differences that we saw in that set of
[8:33] videos where like maybe you can try to
[8:35] do this with me, Stephen. Are you up for
[8:36] it?
[8:37] >> I'm up for it. [laughter] I'm always up
[8:38] for everything.
[8:39] >> Okay. So in genuine sadness you get the
[8:42] like downturn lip corners p. Okay. So
[8:44] you did that pretty easily.
[8:46] >> What tends to be more difficult is this
[8:48] combination in the eyebrows. So you're
[8:50] just your inner eyebrows comes upward
[8:53] and together.
[8:55] >> Oh, you're pretty good. Nicely done.
[8:58] >> It was [laughter] hard.
[8:59] >> So what we saw in the people who were
[9:02] lying was more like surprise. So, like
[9:04] they were able to kind of pull the lip
[9:06] corners down, but instead of like the
[9:09] inner eyebrows going upward and
[9:11] together, the whole inner and outer
[9:13] eyebrows would go up, but not together.
[9:15] So, it's kind of like,
[9:17] >> and you could predictably tell from
[9:19] footage if someone had done it or not.
[9:22] Like, was there correlation?
[9:23] >> Yeah. So, we were able to use four
[9:26] different cues. So too verbal and too
[9:29] non-verbal to predict with about 90%
[9:32] accuracy who was lying and who was
[9:33] telling the truth. Caveat to that. We
[9:37] tried to replicate that more recently
[9:39] and we found much more modest effects.
[9:42] But we did find consistencies especially
[9:44] with the verbal stuff and and there it
[9:47] was the number of words that people used
[9:50] as well as tentative words. So liars
[9:53] would tend to say things like if you see
[9:56] this come home or call or whatever. It
[9:58] was kind of like a little vague about
[10:02] what this person should do if they saw
[10:04] it. Saying things like it wasn't like an
[10:06] argument per se that we were having. So
[10:09] they kind of left a lot of like gray
[10:11] area in the things that they were
[10:12] saying. Whereas the truthful people were
[10:14] like when you see this call me.
[10:16] >> They were more sort of high conviction
[10:17] and precise.
[10:18] >> Yes. Exactly. Yeah. H I think down there
[10:21] we have some cards that say uh three
[10:23] signs someone is lying.
[10:24] >> So one cue to deception is sparse or
[10:29] ambiguous information. So the most
[10:32] consistent effect we have that
[10:34] differentiates people who are telling
[10:36] the truth from people who are lying is
[10:38] the amount of detail that they give. So
[10:41] people who are lying tend to give fewer
[10:44] details.
[10:45] >> Interesting. I thought it was the
[10:47] opposite.
[10:48] Yeah, I hear this a lot [laughter] where
[10:51] people are like, "No, but liars will
[10:52] like, you know, natter on and on and
[10:54] on." That's not what we find in the
[10:56] research whatsoever. Especially
[10:59] especially when people don't have time
[11:01] to prepare.
[11:03] So, whenever people have time to
[11:05] prepare, they can start to look pretty
[11:07] much like a truth teller on the amount
[11:09] of information they have. But if you get
[11:12] someone on the spot, the truth teller
[11:15] just has to like say remember what
[11:17] happened and like spit it out and tell
[11:19] you, right? And you can even ask for
[11:20] more information like tell me more about
[11:22] that and they can come up with more
[11:23] information about that because they were
[11:25] there, right? The person who is lying
[11:27] has a much harder task. We call this
[11:30] they have increased cognitive load which
[11:32] means that like they need to come up
[11:35] with details on the spot. They need to
[11:39] not contradict themselves. They need to
[11:41] make sure they remember it for the next
[11:43] time they need to tell this lie. They
[11:45] also need to try to imagine like what do
[11:47] you know already
[11:49] >> and how do I not contradict or
[11:52] essentially step in it right whenever
[11:54] I'm trying to explain what actually
[11:56] didn't happen.
[11:57] >> They must have higher like blood
[11:58] pressure anyway just from knowing that
[12:00] they're not telling the truth. And that
[12:02] must make it your cortisol spike to know
[12:03] that you're like
[12:05] >> Yeah. We actually we've done some
[12:06] research in my lab uh to show that
[12:08] people who are lying tend to have an
[12:10] increased cortisol reactivity relative
[12:12] to people who are telling the truth.
[12:14] Yeah. You know, on this one, the reason
[12:16] why the reason why I was surprised to
[12:17] hear it is because when I I w I'm a big
[12:19] true crime fan, like obsessed, and uh I
[12:21] often watch the interrogation videos,
[12:24] >> and I I think I thought I heard before
[12:25] that when they're interviewing someone
[12:27] who is guilty, they will give lots of
[12:29] like irrelevant detail on other parts of
[12:32] it.
[12:32] >> I was watching the Jesse Small interview
[12:35] he did on TV. Again, he had time to
[12:38] prepare, so maybe that's the caveat.
[12:40] >> And he really described a bunch of
[12:41] pointless stuff. He like des he was like
[12:43] talking to the journalist. He was like,
[12:44] "Uh, you know," and then I landed and I
[12:46] called my manager who was in Australia
[12:47] because my manager is on tour with
[12:49] someone else and I
[12:51] >> and then even when he talked about going
[12:52] to Subway and getting the Subway rap, he
[12:54] he mentioned that it was like a tuna
[12:56] rap.
[12:57] >> So like the the details he was sure on
[12:59] and that were probably true, he seemed
[13:01] to really expand out
[13:02] >> and then when it gets into the other
[13:04] stuff, which is where the the bulk of
[13:05] the lies took place allegedly, it was
[13:07] quite vague.
[13:08] >> Yeah. Yeah. So we call that embedded
[13:11] lies, right? So like he's giving lots of
[13:13] detail where it's truthful.
[13:14] >> Yeah.
[13:15] >> And then almost no detail where it's a
[13:18] lie, right? And then lots of detail
[13:20] where it's truthful. So you can you can
[13:22] also kind of like compare someone's like
[13:24] baseline like do they do they tend to
[13:27] give lots of detail? Do they tend to be
[13:29] sparse on information? You can look for
[13:30] kind of deviations. And so if you notice
[13:33] that like someone tells you a really
[13:36] long story, there's tons of detail about
[13:38] all these other things and then in this
[13:40] part of the story there's like very
[13:42] little information, very sparse or
[13:44] ambiguous information, right? That can
[13:47] be a red flag. And I think what's
[13:49] >> important to remember is that there is
[13:51] no Pinocchio's nose. There's no like one
[13:53] cue. And so what you're looking for is
[13:56] just like these um subtle cues that are
[14:01] like red flags and encourage you to
[14:02] follow up, ask more questions, dig in to
[14:05] that topic a little bit further.
[14:07] >> You know, in the same way they did the
[14:08] research to figure out if members of the
[14:10] public could just on the surface tell if
[14:12] someone was a psychopath in 5, 10 or 20
[14:14] seconds.
[14:15] >> Have they ever done that with lying to
[14:17] figure out if people can spot lies?
[14:19] >> Literally thousands of times. [laughter]
[14:21] >> Really?
[14:22] >> Yeah. So, in my lab, we've actually had
[14:25] them steal a $100 bill from a room and
[14:30] then we had someone come in and
[14:32] essentially interrogate them and
[14:34] everyone had to deny it, right? So, the
[14:36] people who took it were lying and the
[14:38] people who did not take it were telling
[14:40] the truth and we put 100 bucks on the
[14:42] line, right? So, like if you're able to
[14:44] convince this person that you didn't
[14:47] take it when you actually did, you can
[14:48] keep that at Benjamin. And then we
[14:50] showed these videos to other people,
[14:51] right? People are not very good
[14:53] [laughter]
[14:53] at detecting these these lies or really
[14:56] any kind of lies. On average, people
[14:59] perform at about 54% accuracy. Like if I
[15:02] gave you 12 videos, six are liars, six
[15:05] are truth tellers,
[15:07] you'll get like six or seven, right?
[15:09] >> What if someone is trained? Do the do
[15:12] the stats increase?
[15:14] >> So they can increase a little bit. Yes.
[15:17] What is better actually is learning how
[15:19] to ask better questions.
[15:20] >> Oh, really? Yeah. So, instead of just
[15:24] being like, "Here's a video of someone
[15:25] lying or telling the truth." Like,
[15:27] that's all you get and just like, "Look
[15:29] at that and tell me if they're lying or
[15:31] telling the truth." Good lie detectors
[15:33] ask for more information. Or they ask
[15:37] unanticipated questions uh where people
[15:40] haven't prepared for them. And then
[15:42] those cues of deception, that like
[15:44] sparse information, that like sense that
[15:46] they're thinking really hard is really
[15:49] going to kind of go off the charts. And
[15:51] so learning how to ask good questions is
[15:54] actually a really kind of essential tool
[15:56] for detecting lies.
[15:59] >> I mean, we're going to have to go into
[16:00] that rabbit hole. Um, [laughter]
[16:02] I got to be careful here because people
[16:03] are going to take this out of context.
[16:05] Say that I suspect my my partner is
[16:07] cheating on me.
[16:08] >> Uhhuh.
[16:09] >> And I sit them down and I go, "Babe,
[16:11] listen. are you cheating on me? And they
[16:12] go, "No, absolutely not." What would be
[16:14] a good question to ask to ascertain if
[16:17] they are actually cheating on me?
[16:19] >> So, I think where where you first made a
[16:22] mistake is you asked a closedended
[16:24] question. You're like, "Are
[16:25] [clears throat] you cheating on me?"
[16:27] >> No.
[16:28] >> You didn't even give them an opportunity
[16:29] to like have to come up with something
[16:31] more difficult, right?
[16:33] >> If you were like, "Okay, well, I think
[16:36] last Friday night you said you had to
[16:37] work late, but I don't really believe
[16:39] that. I think you were out with someone
[16:40] else. You would say, "Tell me about, you
[16:43] know, work on Friday night." And so then
[16:46] you're you're asking an open-ended
[16:48] question.
[16:50] >> Let's role play.
[16:50] >> Okay.
[16:51] >> Okay. You're the [clears throat] one
[16:52] that suspects I'm cheating.
[16:53] >> Okay.
[16:53] >> And last Friday night, I was up to
[16:55] something. So, [laughter] that's the
[16:57] context. Let's Let's do this.
[16:58] >> Okay. I know you had to work late
[17:00] [sighs and gasps] on Friday night. Uh
[17:02] what were you working on?
[17:03] >> Yeah, big big investment deal that we're
[17:05] working on with uh couple of uh the
[17:07] colleagues. We had to get a deck
[17:08] together. So, I was Yeah, I stayed till
[17:10] what, 3:00 a.m. in the morning or
[17:11] something crazy like that and I ended up
[17:13] falling asleep on my desk and [gasps]
[17:15] Yeah, that's a long [sighs] one. Anyway,
[17:16] what's for what are we doing today?
[17:17] What's for dinner?
[17:20] [laughter]
[17:22] >> Okay, red flags flying up. So, I would
[17:26] ask more questions. I would be like,
[17:27] "Oh, like what what client were you
[17:29] working on this for? What's the what's
[17:31] the deck about?"
[17:32] >> Yeah, it's a we're doing an investment
[17:34] deal with um with Google. So, it's goo
[17:36] Google's Yeah, it's Google. Yeah,
[17:38] >> you I could ask you like, okay, tell me
[17:40] about um like what was in the deck,
[17:42] right? And you give me a little bit kind
[17:44] of sketchy information. A great question
[17:47] to have in your back pocket is just tell
[17:49] me more about that. Like you don't even
[17:50] have to like try very hard to figure out
[17:53] like where am I going to stump him,
[17:54] right?
[17:55] >> If you just ask, "Tell me more about
[17:57] that."
[17:59] >> At some point, the liar is going to have
[18:02] a lot more trouble coming up with
[18:04] additional details than the truth
[18:06] teller. who's the truth teller is going
[18:07] to be like oh well this is what the
[18:09] project was about like it was actually
[18:11] super annoying because I couldn't get
[18:13] the font on the you know on the slide
[18:15] deck to stay on the whatever like you as
[18:18] a trutht teller you were there and you
[18:20] know all those annoying little things
[18:22] that maybe you didn't include in the you
[18:24] know first version of the story but if
[18:26] you someone asks you for more detail you
[18:28] could go into more detail whereas the
[18:30] person who's lying who's making this up
[18:32] that's much more difficult for them to
[18:34] do because that didn't actually happen.
[18:36] Mhm. So, they're [clears throat] going
[18:36] to be somewhat vague.
[18:38] >> Yes. Vague. And the details are going to
[18:41] be really difficult to verify. So, if
[18:44] they do give you some details, it might
[18:46] be like the things that you you don't
[18:49] know the co-workers that you were
[18:51] working with, right? Oh, it's the new
[18:53] guy at work, like uh you don't know him.
[18:55] So, in general, liars tend to give fewer
[18:59] verifiable details. And there's this
[19:01] actually really fascinating study that
[19:03] you know sometimes we're like we're
[19:05] trying to like dissect right someone's
[19:08] behavior. We're trying we're paying
[19:11] attention their words. We're paying
[19:12] attention like oh are they fidgeting or
[19:14] something which is actually not a good
[19:15] cue to deception. We're looking at their
[19:17] eye contact. Also not a good deception.
[19:20] So, and we are trying to like create
[19:21] this crazy algorithm in our head like
[19:24] adding up all of these different
[19:25] behaviors to try to determine whether I
[19:27] think you're lying or telling the truth.
[19:30] Actually, research suggests that if you
[19:32] just ask how verifiable was that
[19:34] statement, that's a better strategy for
[19:37] trying to accurately detect lies than
[19:40] trying to use all of these other cues
[19:42] that actually don't work.
[19:44] >> I.e., If you ask yourself,
[19:46] >> yes,
[19:47] >> how verifiable is the excuse this person
[19:49] I think his line gave me?
[19:51] >> Yes. Exactly.
[19:52] >> Interesting.
[19:52] >> I think the broader finding is just that
[19:54] it is better to focus on one cue that
[19:58] works than to try to put together all of
[20:01] these like little cues that mostly don't
[20:03] work at all.
[20:05] >> Okay.
[20:05] >> Yeah.
[20:06] >> And the third one there,
[20:07] >> the third one, you know, we've kind of
[20:08] touched on, but it's just visible
[20:10] cognitive effort. So all of this stuff,
[20:12] you know, the details that people need
[20:14] to come up with is really hard to do,
[20:17] right? And they might be speaking really
[20:20] slowly. They might be using lots of ums
[20:23] and a's and they might be kind of like
[20:25] furrowing their brow trying to figure
[20:27] things out. Again, it's important to
[20:30] remember that like you could pause for a
[20:33] million different reasons that are not
[20:36] deception related, right? You could just
[20:38] be trying to remember something. Uh, you
[20:40] could be furrowing your brow because, I
[20:42] don't know, your forehead's itchy,
[20:43] whatever. So, none of these are
[20:45] Pinocchio's nose, but they are reliably
[20:48] associated with deception.
[20:50] >> What about body language? People always
[20:51] talk about body language.
[20:53] >> Mhm. People put a lot of stock into body
[20:55] language, particularly into like gaze
[20:57] aversion. So, if you go around the world
[20:59] and you ask people what's the number one
[21:02] cue that someone is lying to you, they
[21:05] will say sketchy eye contact. And
[21:08] there's no research to suggest that that
[21:10] is true. And if you think about it for
[21:12] like a hot second, it makes so much
[21:15] sense, right? Because I sometimes tell a
[21:18] lie. You sometimes tell a lie. We all
[21:21] know the stereotype that liars can't
[21:23] look you in the eye. So if I want you to
[21:24] believe me, I'm going to make sure I
[21:27] control my eye contact, right?
[21:29] >> Um, and that's something that's that's
[21:31] well under our control. And there's
[21:33] neurody divergence and things like that
[21:34] which means that some people who who
[21:36] have sort of certain neurodyiversities
[21:39] struggle with eye contact but it doesn't
[21:41] necessarily mean that they're lying.
[21:43] >> Exactly. So there's some emerging
[21:44] research to suggest that people who are
[21:47] on the autism spectrum are perceived as
[21:50] lying more uh when they're actually
[21:53] telling the truth. then that's because
[21:54] of this eye contact thing which people
[21:56] are using as a cue to deception but in
[21:59] fact is unrelated to deception. I mean
[22:02] there's also like cultural differences
[22:04] right in some cultures um it's more
[22:06] respectful like not to look at you in
[22:08] the eye and so that can also lead to
[22:12] kind of errors in our judgment
[22:13] >> and there's this sort of dark
[22:15] personality trait um thing I hear a lot
[22:20] is a triad
[22:22] >> it refers to it was a triad now we got a
[22:24] >> tetraad okay so is that what this is
[22:26] >> yes
[22:27] >> okay so if you want to reveal what each
[22:29] of those is one at a time
[22:30] >> psychopathy for example What is
[22:32] psychopathy?
[22:33] >> Psychopathy is a constellation that is a
[22:36] set of personality traits. So, it's not
[22:38] just one thing having kind of a
[22:40] superficial charm. They're quite
[22:42] manipulative and they tend to be pretty
[22:44] grandiose. So, they've got a pretty
[22:46] inflated view of themselves. There's
[22:48] also emotional components. So, they tend
[22:51] to have pretty shallow emotional
[22:53] experiences.
[22:55] A lack of remorse uh and guilt for
[22:58] harming other people. and they tend not
[23:01] to take responsibility for their own
[23:03] actions.
[23:04] In addition, they tend to be uh pretty
[23:07] impulsive. So, they are kind of living
[23:10] life by the seat of their pants and
[23:12] they're not really, you know, planning
[23:14] far out into the future. And so, they
[23:17] might, you know, kind of mooch off of a
[23:19] family members or a romantic partner.
[23:21] And then lastly, they tend to break a
[23:23] lot of rules. So this might be just like
[23:25] workplace rules or social norms, but
[23:28] psychopathy has largely been studied in
[23:31] criminal populations. So this could also
[23:33] be laws. The the other three of the
[23:37] so-called dark tetrad share some
[23:40] elements but also has some like unique
[23:42] flavors. Um so the next one we've got
[23:44] here is Machavevelianism
[23:47] and that is you know named after Nicolo
[23:50] Machaveli who wrote um the prince which
[23:53] is a kind of a how-to manual to like
[23:55] gain and wield power effectively.
[23:58] >> So as a personality trait they tend to
[24:00] be pretty cynical about other people.
[24:03] They tell a lot of lies and they try to
[24:06] like manipulate people, but it's more
[24:08] like three-dimensional chess, you know,
[24:10] like they might learn a little tidbit
[24:12] about you, Stephen. They'll be like,
[24:13] "You know what? I could use that against
[24:15] him later. I'm just going to like put
[24:17] that in my back pocket." And, you know,
[24:19] when I need to manipulate or like a
[24:21] blackmail you in the future, right?
[24:23] They'll have that available to them. So,
[24:26] this is they're very interested in
[24:27] power, which of course is where the name
[24:30] comes from. Next one is narcissism. You
[24:32] know, that's one that people know pretty
[24:34] well, right? So, these are people who
[24:36] tend to be very entitled and they're
[24:38] very willing to exploit other people in
[24:40] order to get what they think they
[24:42] deserve, right? So, it's like very
[24:44] relentless kind of self focus.
[24:48] >> This word has been used quite a lot in
[24:49] culture.
[24:50] >> Uhhuh.
[24:51] >> It's thrown around
[24:53] all the time,
[24:53] >> constantly. Yes.
[24:54] >> What's your view of that?
[24:56] >> I mean, narcissism, like all of these
[24:58] traits, exist on a continuum.
[25:00] >> Okay. [clears throat]
[25:01] >> Okay. So you or anyone else myself could
[25:04] take a measure, a self-report measure of
[25:06] the extent to which I have these traits,
[25:09] right? And you can land anywhere from
[25:10] very low to very high. Now some of these
[25:14] traits, narcissism being one of them,
[25:17] actually has a there's a personality
[25:19] disorder diagnosis at the incredibly
[25:21] high end, right? So this appears in the
[25:25] diagnostic and statistical manual which
[25:28] is basically like a list of different
[25:30] mental disorders. You could go to a
[25:33] psychologist or psychiatrist. They could
[25:35] assess you and diagnose you if you have
[25:37] like extreme levels of narcissism. But
[25:41] like people land everywhere, right? So I
[25:45] think part of the problem is that people
[25:47] say, "Oh, she's a narcissist, right?
[25:51] He's a narcissist." Are they a
[25:53] narcissist or a psychopath? And they
[25:56] make this kind of very binary
[25:58] distinction there, right? I guess I have
[26:02] qualms with those words for a couple of
[26:04] different reasons. You know, these exist
[26:07] on a continuum. There's no clear like
[26:10] >> moment where
[26:11] >> moment where it becomes you are a
[26:13] narcissist versus not a narcissist. And
[26:16] so, as with all of these other traits,
[26:18] it's a bit of a mouthful, but I think
[26:20] it's more accurate to say they they have
[26:22] relatively high levels of narcissism or
[26:26] psychopathy or or whatever the case is.
[26:28] >> And you said that there's two main types
[26:30] of narcissist.
[26:32] >> Yeah. So, increasingly, uh, personality
[26:34] psychologists are identifying this kind
[26:36] of vulnerable type and, uh, a grandiose
[26:39] type. So, Grandios is like one that we
[26:41] all know well where it's like they've
[26:43] got this ego in it's huge. It like
[26:46] cannot be popped, right? It's like
[26:48] [laughter] they get this negative
[26:49] feedback and it's like nothing gets
[26:51] through to them and they always think
[26:53] they should be the one in charge, etc.
[26:55] For those individuals, they tend to get
[26:58] very angry uh with a particular kind of
[27:01] threat to their ego and that is like a
[27:04] failure to achieve. Like they wanted
[27:06] this uh promotion at work, they didn't
[27:08] get it. Mhm. [clears throat]
[27:09] >> Vulnerable individuals actually have
[27:12] kind of um a very fragile ego.
[27:16] >> Interesting.
[27:18] >> So it can be popped very easily
[27:22] essentially. So if they get negative
[27:24] feedback from people maybe they get like
[27:27] socially rejected. That's when they
[27:30] become quite angry. That's more of a
[27:32] trigger for them. And is it you using
[27:34] the word angry as the outcome of both
[27:36] those types of narcissists,
[27:38] >> but I guess one would assume that maybe
[27:41] just from the wording that a vulnerable
[27:42] narcissist would get more upset or more
[27:46] self-critical or something like that. Uh
[27:48] the research at least was focused on on
[27:50] anger in response to these kinds of
[27:52] threats to their ego, but certainly
[27:55] emotional, you know, like combative, you
[27:58] know, this is when you're going to get
[27:59] like a really negative response. Like
[28:02] someone who uh is relatively low on
[28:05] narcissism of both kinds, you know,
[28:07] could take that kind of feedback that
[28:09] like, no, I don't think a second date is
[28:11] really for us, right? like someone with
[28:13] vulnerable narcissism is going to
[28:16] respond badly.
[28:17] >> Do you know why I asked the question?
[28:19] It's just a friend of mine because of a
[28:20] conversation I was having the other day
[28:21] where we were interviewing someone
[28:24] >> and during the interview process they
[28:27] were very quick to say to claim credit
[28:31] for like all of the things the company
[28:33] they worked at had done.
[28:34] >> And they were also very quick to say
[28:36] that they were like good at everything.
[28:38] Even as I walked out the room with them
[28:39] and I said, "Oh, can you can I message
[28:41] you on this particular app?" They said,
[28:42] "I'm amazing at that app." Again, I'm an
[28:44] anonymizing, so a lot of this is
[28:46] slightly changed. And I walked out of
[28:48] the room weirdly, having interviewed
[28:49] thousands and thousands of people over
[28:50] the years,
[28:52] >> thinking to myself, they were so lovely,
[28:54] but it felt to me like it was more
[28:55] coming from a place of insecurity.
[28:57] >> Mhm.
[28:58] >> And when you look at their story, it's a
[28:59] story of someone who has been
[29:00] continually
[29:02] counted out, overlooked for
[29:03] opportunities, and almost has this a bit
[29:05] of a chip on their shoulder to try and
[29:07] be
[29:09] >> prove themselves.
[29:11] >> Mhm. Now, when I another person I think
[29:13] would look at that same pattern of
[29:14] behavior and say, "Oh, that that
[29:15] person's a narcissist." So, when I heard
[29:17] vulnerable narcissist versus the sort of
[29:19] grandiose one, I was wondering if is at
[29:21] all linked to what I'm saying. Like,
[29:23] >> for vulnerable narcissism, the reason
[29:25] that they would respond so poorly to
[29:27] this kind of rejection is that they need
[29:29] kind of constant admiration and positive
[29:32] feedback from other people to keep their
[29:34] ego like going. I I called this person's
[29:38] former employer to get a reference and
[29:41] they said about him
[29:43] >> that
[29:44] one of the quotes was he always needs a
[29:46] gold star.
[29:47] >> What's the difference between deep
[29:48] insecurity and narcissism in this
[29:50] regard?
[29:50] >> The deep insecurity um it would need to
[29:53] be coupled with these like entitlement
[29:56] like there's still a grandio sense of
[29:58] self. It's just that it is quite
[30:00] fragile. So they're like they they think
[30:03] they're really good and they're willing
[30:04] to exploit other people to get what they
[30:06] think they deserve and they may feel
[30:08] like they've been victimized, right? And
[30:10] that's why they haven't gotten all of
[30:12] the accolades that they think they
[30:14] deserve. Now I think kind of regardless
[30:17] of where this person, you know, sits on
[30:21] this continuum, you know, they might
[30:23] still have like incredible skills. They
[30:25] might have the abilities that you're
[30:27] looking for. And so, is this something
[30:30] you can manage or is this going to
[30:33] create problems?
[30:34] >> I didn't get any sense that they were
[30:35] entitled or that they would use other
[30:38] people to their advantage. I I got the
[30:40] impression that people would generally
[30:41] like them
[30:42] >> and that they weren't entitled at all,
[30:44] but they still had these sort of sort of
[30:45] self-promotional traits. And I think in
[30:47] society, the minute someone's like
[30:48] overly self-promotional, we run to the
[30:50] sort of narcissist category versus it
[30:53] could be other things, I'm presuming.
[30:55] >> Yes. I mean, I think in that situation,
[30:57] right, you need to be quite mindful of
[30:58] the situation as well, right? So, like
[31:00] our behavior is kind of a combination of
[31:03] both our personality and the situation
[31:05] that we're in. And so, if you're at a
[31:08] job interview, like your whole goal is
[31:11] to show people like, I can do this job.
[31:14] I've got the skills that you need. And
[31:16] so in a job interview, we might kind of
[31:18] come across as like a more confident,
[31:20] more, you know, we're we're presenting
[31:22] ourselves in the best possible light,
[31:24] but I think we're very quick to rush to
[31:29] a personality assessment. This is called
[31:30] the um fundamental attribution error.
[31:34] So, it's like when I see someone behave
[31:36] in a particular way, like they're
[31:37] they're maybe being self-promoting,
[31:40] saying all the things that they can do
[31:41] really well, I could be like, "Oh,
[31:44] that's narcissistic." Right? That's a
[31:46] personality trait.
[31:48] >> And we tend to be more likely to do that
[31:50] to others. But if I was in their shoes,
[31:53] I would be like, I was just trying to
[31:54] show Stephen like what I could do. It's
[31:57] the situation that made me act kind of
[32:01] >> bigger than my britches, right? So we
[32:03] need to also be aware of like the
[32:07] situation can impact our behavior and so
[32:09] we want to be not too quick to make a
[32:14] personality attribution where the
[32:15] situation could explain that. And that's
[32:19] maybe a really important point to make
[32:21] here is that personality is a consistent
[32:25] pattern of thinking, feeling, and
[32:27] behaving
[32:28] >> over time and across context. So, if
[32:30] you've only got one interaction with
[32:32] this person, you've only got one
[32:34] interaction with this person, you
[32:35] probably get a sense of their
[32:36] personality, but you might see them, you
[32:38] know, out with their friends or with
[32:40] their family and they might be they
[32:42] might not be kind of so boastful, right?
[32:44] And [clears throat] that might suggest
[32:45] that this is really the situation
[32:47] talking, not the personality. And
[32:48] >> what are the gender differences in
[32:50] narcissism in terms of both different
[32:52] types of narcissism? You mentioned
[32:54] vulnerable narcissism and also grandiose
[32:56] narcissism. And then I guess there might
[32:58] be some other gender differences in our
[33:00] ability to like spot these behaviors.
[33:04] >> So when it comes to all of these traits
[33:06] that we're talking about, um, men tend
[33:09] to score somewhat higher than women. And
[33:11] that's a quite a consistent finding.
[33:14] That is not to say that women cannot
[33:16] score like very high on these traits.
[33:18] There are certainly cases and there's
[33:20] quite a bit of overlap, but on average,
[33:24] you know, the averages for men tend to
[33:25] be higher than the averages for women.
[33:27] >> And there's a fourth break.
[33:29] >> That's the the newest and latest one,
[33:31] which is sadism. When you hear sadism,
[33:34] you might jump to like pretty extreme.
[33:36] >> Yeah. [laughter] I was thinking of like
[33:37] the devil and stuff, huh?
[33:39] >> Yeah. I mean, I first started studying
[33:43] sadistic behavior in the context of like
[33:46] sexual homicides. Like I was reading
[33:48] through these descriptions of criminal
[33:51] behavior and I was looking for signs of
[33:54] sadistic treatment of the victim. So
[33:56] it's like it can get incredibly extreme,
[33:59] right? And that's probably where our
[34:00] mind goes. But there's also like kind of
[34:02] more everyday versions. One good example
[34:05] is like online trolling. So we know that
[34:08] people who are relatively high in sadism
[34:11] tend to they they take pleasure in other
[34:13] people's pain, right? And so you could
[34:16] do that in incredibly like gruesome,
[34:18] horrifying ways, or you could just be
[34:20] like pushing people's buttons online
[34:23] trying to get people upset. They all
[34:25] share kind of three things. They are
[34:29] callous, so they don't care about other
[34:31] people. They don't care about your your
[34:33] feelings or your outcomes. They're
[34:36] manipulative, so they're willing to lie
[34:38] and cheat to get what they want. And
[34:40] they're hostile toward other people. So
[34:42] that's kind of like the core of all of
[34:45] these traits. That's what they share.
[34:47] >> Facadesh.
[34:48] >> Mhm.
[34:49] >> Are they good at hiding it?
[34:50] >> Yes. In fact, some of the like earliest
[34:53] descriptions of psychopathy in
[34:55] particular described it as like a mask
[34:57] of sanity. And so it's like they can
[35:00] seem quite kind of normal on the
[35:02] surface, but if you kind of get a look
[35:05] underneath the hood, you see that
[35:06] they're not running the same kind of
[35:08] operating system that you are.
[35:10] >> What is the inverse of all this stuff?
[35:11] because we've pointed at the traits and
[35:15] a lot of those are things people
[35:16] understand but there's also some
[35:17] misconceptions. There's also the
[35:19] opposite which is like
[35:21] >> people think narcissists or psychopaths
[35:23] can't hold eye contact is one of the
[35:24] ones you hear all the time. What are
[35:26] some of these ones that through your
[35:27] research you've been able to debunk as
[35:29] not being true.
[35:30] >> So I think one of the biggest ones is
[35:32] that all people with high levels of
[35:34] psychopathy are violent and that's
[35:36] absolutely not the case.
[35:38] >> It kind of links to your your tweet
[35:40] here.
[35:40] >> Yeah. So most people think a psychopath
[35:42] looks dangerous. They picture the
[35:44] villain in a movie, but that's not how
[35:46] it works in real life. So you probably
[35:48] noticed that like in that description
[35:50] that I gave you, kind of a long-winded
[35:52] description of psychopathy with all
[35:53] those four different elements, I did say
[35:55] that there was rulebreaking, right?
[35:58] >> And sometimes that's criminal rule
[36:00] breaking. So that could be violent
[36:01] behavior, but it's not necessarily so.
[36:04] So psychopathy is like a risk factor for
[36:07] violent behavior, but there's plenty of
[36:09] people who would score relatively highly
[36:11] and and never engage in violent
[36:13] behavior. They might break rules in
[36:14] other ways, right? So I think whenever
[36:17] we hear the word psychopathy, what comes
[36:20] to mind is like a Ted Bundy, right? Ted
[36:22] Bundy type character. He reportedly
[36:26] scored, I think it's 39 out of 40 or
[36:29] something on the psychopathy checklist
[36:31] revised, which is a a measure that uh
[36:33] psychologists will use to assess how uh
[36:37] psychopathic someone is. So yeah, he's a
[36:40] bit of a poster boy uh for for those
[36:43] traits, but um certainly people can
[36:45] score highly without being, you know, a
[36:48] serial murderer.
[36:49] >> In terms of the the the amount of the
[36:51] population that have one of these dark
[36:54] personality traits,
[36:56] >> yeah,
[36:56] >> what is what are the numbers? How common
[36:58] is it?
[36:59] >> So this is a complicated question
[37:01] because as I told you, you know, all
[37:03] these traits exist on a continuum. So
[37:06] the proportion of people that we say are
[37:09] high on these traits depends on where
[37:10] you put that cut point. Right?
[37:12] >> If we're talking about psychopathy and
[37:15] clinical levels, that means um a score
[37:17] of 30 out of 40 on the psychopathy
[37:20] checklist revised or higher. That's
[37:22] about 1% of the population. Narcissistic
[37:25] personality disorder. So again, very
[37:27] extreme levels of those traits, enough
[37:30] to warrant a diagnosis. That would be
[37:33] two to five percent.
[37:35] >> We don't have clinical cut offs for
[37:38] sadism and machavelianism.
[37:40] What we do have is a ton of data of
[37:44] people who have completed self-report
[37:46] questionnaires. So like one way that you
[37:48] can kind of uh get a sense of how many
[37:51] people are high on these traits is by
[37:54] looking at the proportion of people who
[37:56] on average agree with the items. Like if
[38:00] I say I am a born leader,
[38:03] >> to what extent do you agree with that?
[38:04] That's a narcissism item.
[38:07] >> If you say yeah, I agree with that. To
[38:08] what extent do you say you like to see
[38:10] other people get hurt? Say trait. Yeah,
[38:12] I agree with that. Right? So if you just
[38:14] look at the people who on average agree
[38:17] with the items that we use to
[38:19] self-report assess uh these traits, it's
[38:22] about 10% of the population.
[38:26] >> And where where does this come from? Is
[38:27] this um is this does this come from
[38:29] childhood trauma? When you think about
[38:31] some of these, you know, these
[38:32] individuals you have on these photos in
[38:34] front of you here, where do you think
[38:35] their antisocial or dark triad or dark
[38:38] personality behavior stems from?
[38:41] >> Is it something that happened in their
[38:42] childhood? Is it genetics? Is it
[38:44] something else?
[38:45] >> The answer is both. So the research
[38:47] suggests that uh with respect to
[38:49] psychopathy, narcissism, quite similar,
[38:52] the variation in someone's score um on
[38:56] that personality trait is about 50%
[38:58] genetic and about 50% environmental
[39:02] experiences. And so, you know, it can in
[39:05] some ways make us realize that these
[39:07] people didn't ask to be this way because
[39:10] I mean, you don't get to choose your
[39:11] parents, so you're you don't get to
[39:13] choose your genetics. And then when it
[39:14] comes to those environmental experiences
[39:16] often they're like early life
[39:18] experiences and not good ones. So
[39:21] research suggests that you know abuse uh
[39:24] really kind of cold uncaring parenting
[39:27] style early in life can increase the
[39:30] likelihood that someone will have higher
[39:32] levels of these traits later in life.
[39:34] for narcissism. Um, another variable is
[39:38] like overvaluation
[39:40] of um, a child early in life may lead to
[39:44] more narcissistic abuse later.
[39:46] >> Overevaluation.
[39:47] >> So, there's one study, it was a
[39:49] longitudinal study and they asked
[39:50] parents like the extent to which they,
[39:53] you know, told their kids like you're
[39:55] special, you're like better than other
[39:58] kids. And the more the kids got that
[40:00] kind of feedback, the more likely they
[40:03] were to be more narcissistic later down
[40:06] the road. Like they thought they were
[40:07] exceptional. They thought they were
[40:09] entitled to things that other people
[40:10] were not entitled to. And that's
[40:13] different than self-esteem. We want our
[40:15] kids to have high self-esteem. We want
[40:17] them to know that they are, you know,
[40:19] cared for and worthy. That comes from
[40:22] something different. That comes from
[40:23] like a warm, responsive parenting style.
[40:27] In that study, I [clears throat] was I
[40:28] was thinking about causation and I was
[40:29] wondering if if the parents themselves
[40:31] had a genetic disposition to be
[40:33] narcissistic. Is it conceivable that
[40:35] they then
[40:36] >> spoke highly to their children? Yeah.
[40:39] >> And actually maybe it wasn't the the the
[40:41] nurturing part, it was their nature,
[40:43] i.e. that child also shared the genetics
[40:45] as the parent who had the proclivity to
[40:47] tell them that they were the most
[40:48] amazing thing ever. Does that make
[40:50] sense?
[40:50] >> Totally. I mean I mostly I I think about
[40:53] this in the context of psychopathy where
[40:55] like sometimes you've got like a perfect
[40:57] storm, right? So like you might have a
[40:59] parent who has really high levels of
[41:00] these traits. So they're passing on that
[41:02] potential genetic risk factor. But if
[41:06] you've got someone, you know, a parent
[41:07] in your household who is callous,
[41:10] manipulative, impulsive, it's going to
[41:13] be very difficult to maintain like a
[41:15] pretty stable home life for that child.
[41:19] And so they might end up experiencing,
[41:21] you know, some of those like abuse and
[41:23] and cold kind of parenting styles that
[41:25] are also environmental risk factors for
[41:28] developing psychopathy later in life. So
[41:31] they kind of get like a a double whammy.
[41:34] >> From all the research you've done and
[41:36] all the studying of these dark
[41:37] personality traits you've done and
[41:38] self-esteem and everything in between,
[41:41] is there any way to increase one's
[41:44] probability of being a good parent? like
[41:46] what like from everything you've seen
[41:48] what is the like right approach? I know
[41:50] that's a that it's a difficult thing to
[41:51] say because kids are all different but
[41:53] >> I mean warm and responsive parenting is
[41:56] it like when you look at treatment for
[41:59] kids who are showing early warning signs
[42:01] of these callous and unemotional traits.
[42:04] That's the treatment that seems to work.
[42:07] And actually that's kind of like the the
[42:09] silver lining in this whole, you know,
[42:11] kind of dark research area is that early
[42:15] intervention with kids really can help
[42:19] reduce the likelihood of them developing
[42:22] high levels of psychopathic traits as
[42:24] they grow older. And usually it's like
[42:26] it's training parents uh you know, it's
[42:28] not like a kid comes in and talks to a
[42:30] therapist like once a week and then
[42:32] we're good, right? It's it's more
[42:34] training parents about how to respond in
[42:38] ways that don't like escalate create
[42:40] these kind of like dominance contests
[42:42] when the kid acts out, but also to
[42:46] reinforce and kind of model this warm
[42:50] and responsiveness.
[42:52] But what's fascinating about uh
[42:55] psychopathy and and callous and
[42:56] unemotional traits uh in kids is that
[43:00] they tend to be not very responsive to
[43:02] punishment. They're very responsive to
[43:04] rewards. So if you see kids doing
[43:08] something kind or helpful,
[43:12] the like parent child interaction
[43:14] training teaches parents to repeat what
[43:17] they said. Say that was a very kind
[43:19] thing to say. just like repeating,
[43:21] showing, responding to them, paying
[43:24] attention to their behavior when they do
[43:26] something good or kind, reinforcing it,
[43:31] and giving that attention um to increase
[43:34] the likelihood that you see it in the
[43:35] future.
[43:36] >> And so the inverse of that in terms of a
[43:38] bad way to respond to a child that might
[43:40] lead to some of these dark personality
[43:41] traits in the future would be
[43:43] >> a cold and unresponsive parenting,
[43:45] getting angry, getting frustrated with
[43:47] them. I mean physically harming them
[43:51] that would be that's child abuse is
[43:53] associated with increased likelihood of
[43:55] developing these traits over time.
[43:57] >> You mentioned dominating in terms of
[43:59] dominating conversation trying to outdo
[44:01] them.
[44:02] >> Yeah. So, um I mean, and this is
[44:04] something that I think is not exclusive
[44:06] to, uh parenting kids with CU traits,
[44:09] but sometimes, you know, if a kid is
[44:12] having a tantrum, you'll like you'll see
[44:14] a parent saying like, "No, you can't
[44:15] have that." And then they'll like, you
[44:17] know, increase the the tantrum level
[44:19] like, "No, you can't have that." And but
[44:21] then once it gets to a certain point,
[44:22] you like give in, right? What that
[44:25] teaches is that you just need to
[44:28] escalate your behavior. you need to
[44:29] continue to like dominate your parent,
[44:32] like kick it up a notch, kick it up a
[44:34] notch, and then at some point you're
[44:35] going to win
[44:36] >> as a kid.
[44:37] >> So, that kind of parenting is is not um
[44:40] going to extinguish the negative
[44:42] behavior very effectively.
[44:44] >> And there's a brain scan there in front
[44:46] of you. What is that brain scan?
[44:48] >> This is a scan of functional MRI. So,
[44:52] what they're pointing out there is the
[44:56] prefrontal cortex. So the research
[44:58] suggests that people who have high
[45:00] levels of psychopathy tend to have less
[45:04] active and less connected uh prefrontal
[45:07] cortex. That's associated with impulse
[45:08] control. It's also associated with kind
[45:10] of moral reasoning, moral thinking. If
[45:12] they're, you know, brains are less
[45:14] active during the same moral or impulse
[45:17] control task in those regions, this
[45:20] might help us to explain why they're
[45:23] more likely to behave impulsively to,
[45:26] you know, not be empathetic to other
[45:28] people. There's also um the amygdala,
[45:30] which I don't think you can see on here,
[45:32] but and it's on the inside.
[45:34] >> You can open it up. [laughter]
[45:35] >> Okay, let's see. So other research on um
[45:39] psychopathy suggests that the amygdala
[45:42] which is deep within our brain is also
[45:44] associated with emotional response
[45:47] particularly fear. And so we know that
[45:49] people with high levels of psychopathy
[45:51] tend to have they experience pretty low
[45:52] fear. And they're not very good at like
[45:57] aversive conditioning, right? So like if
[45:59] we get punished for something,
[46:01] >> we learn that whenever we we, you know,
[46:04] come up against that stimuli again in
[46:06] the future, we're like, "Oh, that turned
[46:08] out really badly [laughter] last time.
[46:10] I'm going to avoid that." So amydalas in
[46:12] people with high levels of psychopathy
[46:14] tend to be both smaller and less active.
[46:17] So there there is like, you know, brain
[46:20] differences, neurological differences
[46:22] between people with high levels and low
[46:24] levels of psychopathy. So I guess this
[46:27] begs the question that if someone has
[46:28] those traits you've described or if
[46:30] they're any one of these four things in
[46:31] this dark triad, these dark personality
[46:33] traits, can they be cured? So some
[46:38] change is possible,
[46:42] but I mean [laughter]
[46:45] some
[46:46] some being an operative word there. So
[46:49] most of the research we have on on
[46:51] psychopathy in particular comes from
[46:54] criminal offenders. So, individuals who
[46:56] are incarcerated have to take part in
[46:58] some treatment uh while they're inside.
[47:01] And the research finds that they're not
[47:04] particularly motivated to change. So,
[47:06] that's a big problem with like all of
[47:08] these things because they don't
[47:10] particularly care about other people and
[47:12] it tends to be other people that they
[47:14] are hurting with their behavior and so
[47:16] it's like why would I change? This is
[47:18] like a you problem, not a me problem,
[47:20] right? So motivation uh can be difficult
[47:24] to come by with this population. But if
[47:27] they do consistently engage in cognitive
[47:30] behavioral therapies, you can reduce the
[47:33] likelihood of uh recidivism. So the
[47:37] likelihood that they will reaffend upon
[47:39] release. Again, we're talking about
[47:40] incarcerated individuals. When it comes
[47:43] to lower levels of these traits, this
[47:46] really interesting research by Nathan
[47:48] Hudson had people do these agreeableness
[47:51] challenges. And agreeableness is kind of
[47:53] like the opposite of [laughter] these
[47:55] traits. So you would just like ping them
[47:58] on their smartphone every day and would
[48:01] say like, "Oh, you should give a
[48:02] compliment to a friend. You should reach
[48:04] out to a friend and just offer them some
[48:07] encouragement. you should, you know, buy
[48:09] coffee for the person behind you in line
[48:11] at the cafe today. [gasps] These little
[48:14] things where people were encouraged to
[48:16] be kind, be helpful to other people, to
[48:20] see other people's perspectives.
[48:22] And people who actually followed through
[48:25] on those did report having lower levels
[48:28] of these traits after 4 months than at
[48:30] the start. And in your book, under the
[48:32] section that says hard truths, um, dark
[48:35] personalities persist, you write,
[48:37] "Poisonous people aren't likely to
[48:38] change very much. Personality traits are
[48:41] by definition enduring. Although some
[48:43] evolution of our character happens
[48:45] naturally, it takes decade. Data
[48:47] suggests that people become a bit more
[48:48] agreeable over time, and research with
[48:51] incarcerated men finds that even those
[48:54] with clinical levels of psychopathy are
[48:56] less likely to reaffend as they get
[48:58] older. Even so, waiting it out is likely
[49:02] to be a painful strategy. One study
[49:04] asked more than a thousand people who
[49:06] knew individual who were psychopathic
[49:08] for a long time whether their behavior
[49:10] had improved past the age of 50. Almost
[49:13] all respondents, 93%
[49:16] said that as researchers put it, quote,
[49:19] the behavior was just as bad or worse
[49:23] after age 50 than it had been
[49:26] previously. just as bad or worse.
[49:29] >> I mean, it's their personality, right?
[49:31] So, it's kind of like asking a tiger to
[49:34] change their stripes. So, if you're not
[49:36] motivated to do it, as we know, people
[49:38] with these traits tend not to be very
[49:40] motivated. That's where that, you know,
[49:42] 90ome% of folks come in. It's like
[49:44] they're not they're not dramatically
[49:46] changing unless they find some reason to
[49:50] do so.
[49:51] One of the smartest things a business
[49:53] can do is build like a bigger company
[49:56] without actually hiring like one. But
[49:58] the problem we all face is that most
[50:00] companies don't have every skill in
[50:01] house. So when I look at the businesses
[50:03] seeing real success today, the
[50:05] consistent pattern with all of them is
[50:07] how quickly they move. They bring in
[50:08] specialists with skills in emerging
[50:10] areas to keep themselves ahead. Even in
[50:12] our company, we've spent the last year
[50:13] pulling in talent across areas like AI
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[50:18] product workflows. And we find this
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[50:50] Hello. I wasn't able to make that
[50:51] finance meeting. Can you tell me what I
[50:54] missed? What I have in front of me is
[50:55] Whisper Flow's new notetaker. And for
[50:57] me, it's been an absolute game changer.
[50:59] I spend most of my life sat in very,
[51:00] very long meetings with lots of
[51:01] different teams and lots of different
[51:03] departments. In any given week, I could
[51:04] have 40, 50 meetings and sometimes more.
[51:07] But also, I sit in podcasts where lots
[51:09] of very interesting things get said and
[51:11] I need to focus on the conversation.
[51:13] What whisper flows notetaker does for me
[51:15] is it captures the entire context of
[51:17] everything that's happened throughout my
[51:18] entire week. It labels who the people
[51:21] are that said what and I can ask it for
[51:24] things that I might have forgotten for
[51:26] actions things that I said I would do
[51:27] that I haven't yet done. It's building
[51:29] this sort of broader context of
[51:31] everything that's happening in my life.
[51:33] And it's an incredible incredible
[51:34] superpower. I love the fact that so many
[51:35] of you come up to me in the street
[51:36] because you know I'm an investor in
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[51:47] to download it right now and give it a
[51:48] try. And once you try it, I think you'll
[51:49] realize why we let them sponsor this
[51:51] podcast. It's amazing. Is there anything
[51:53] else in this bucket that you find
[51:54] interesting? Cuz I know you um you may
[51:55] or may not be working on a book that
[51:58] really focuses on deception, but is
[51:59] there anything else that we haven't
[52:00] covered here that you think is pertinent
[52:01] or any research that you uncovered that
[52:03] was fascinating?
[52:05] So, in my lab right now, I've become
[52:08] increasingly fascinated with how we
[52:11] respond to people who are lying to us
[52:13] when we're not suspicious at all. Cuz
[52:15] most of the research is like, I give you
[52:18] a bunch of videos and I tell you some of
[52:20] these people are lying, some are telling
[52:22] the truth, and you make judgments about
[52:23] them. But that's not how real life works
[52:25] like at all. Right? So, usually we're
[52:28] having some sort of interaction with
[52:30] people. No one comes in and says you
[52:32] need to judge the veracity of this
[52:33] person. We're just having a
[52:35] conversation. And so I've been really
[52:37] interested in how um conversations
[52:40] unfold, how interactions unfold when one
[52:43] person is lying and the other person is
[52:45] just like none the wiser. And so we keep
[52:49] finding these small but consistent
[52:51] effects that people feel less close to
[52:55] their interaction partner when someone
[52:58] is lying to them.
[52:59] >> Close. Yeah, it's like so we actually
[53:01] had this study where um we got people to
[53:05] just converse, right? Talk to a
[53:07] stranger. One person was told to lie in
[53:10] response to everything. The other person
[53:11] had no idea that was going on. And at
[53:13] the end of that study, the diads that
[53:16] had a liar in them said like, I feel,
[53:20] you know, less connected to this other
[53:22] person than diads where both people were
[53:25] telling the truth. And so we also found
[53:28] that the more lies that people tell,
[53:31] they just, you know, self-report on how
[53:33] much they lie in their everyday life,
[53:35] the more lonely they feel. And so we're
[53:39] finding this kind of birectional effect.
[53:42] And and I think often people lie to like
[53:46] spare the feelings of others. That's for
[53:49] the average person, not necessarily
[53:52] these traits here, but for the average
[53:53] person, most of the lies that we tell
[53:55] are pro-social in nature. Like, I tell
[53:56] you a lie because I don't want to hurt
[53:58] your feelings, but we are finding that
[54:00] that actually creates this like social
[54:02] distance between us as opposed to
[54:05] bringing us closer together. And so,
[54:07] I've been really interested in just kind
[54:08] of like the negative impacts of telling
[54:11] lies even when we do it for quote
[54:13] unquote good reasons. In that you talked
[54:16] about how when if we were both sat down
[54:18] and you were asked to lie to me, I would
[54:20] walk away feeling like I was less close
[54:22] i.e. slashconnected to you.
[54:24] >> What is it in your in your behavior
[54:28] or in my perception that you think is
[54:30] causing
[54:31] >> this feeling of disconnection?
[54:33] >> Mhm. So we are finding that people who
[54:39] are lying are perceived as less warm.
[54:43] They're perceived as less competent.
[54:45] They're perceived as less moral. Also,
[54:48] if we think about like some of the cues
[54:50] to deception that we talked about
[54:52] earlier, when people give relatively few
[54:55] details about themselves, conversations
[54:57] are based on this reciprocal exchange,
[54:59] right? Like I tell you something about
[55:01] myself, you tell me something about
[55:03] yourself. And like we start to know each
[55:05] other, right?
[55:06] >> And so if you've got someone who's lying
[55:08] to you, they're giving you less
[55:09] information about themselves, for
[55:11] example. And so I don't feel like I know
[55:13] you at the end of our conversation. Even
[55:16] though I'm not like actively suspicious
[55:18] that you're lying to me about your likes
[55:20] and your interests and what you did on
[55:22] Friday afternoon, it comes across
[55:24] because you gave me less information and
[55:27] maybe I think he didn't really want to
[55:29] talk to me.
[55:31] >> I mean, I'm so fascinated by this the
[55:33] fact that you have a lab that tests this
[55:34] stuff.
[55:35] >> What are some of the fascinating
[55:36] questions you've gone in search of
[55:38] answers for in your lab?
[55:40] One that I love is um how much sympathy
[55:45] people feel for
[55:48] individuals who are lying or telling the
[55:50] truth about how sad they are. So like
[55:52] think back to the pleaders, right, that
[55:54] we talked about. If you look at this
[55:58] face, right, versus this face, like how
[56:00] much empathy do you have for that
[56:02] person? How sad do you feel? How willing
[56:05] are you to donate money to whatever
[56:07] cause they're looking for? So like we
[56:10] studied this with
[56:12] the pleaders that we talked about. So
[56:14] people who went on TV and asked for help
[56:16] trying to find their missing loved one,
[56:17] half of whom were actually responsible
[56:19] for killing that person they pleaded to
[56:21] find. And we showed people again, they
[56:24] weren't aware that some of these folks
[56:25] were lying and some were telling the
[56:27] truth. But we showed them these videos
[56:29] and we said, "How much sympathy do you
[56:31] feel for this person who's asking for
[56:33] help trying to find the missing
[56:35] individual? And how much money would you
[56:37] donate to a theoretical GoFundMe that
[56:40] would like help support the search for
[56:42] this missing person?" And we find really
[56:44] consistently that people are more
[56:47] willing to donate money to the genuine
[56:50] pleaders relative to the deceptive ones.
[56:53] and they feel more kind of sympathy and
[56:55] compassion for them even though they're
[56:57] not, you know, they don't know that some
[57:00] of these folks are actually like
[57:02] deceptive murderers. And the effects are
[57:04] like, you know, not gigantic, but it
[57:07] does suggest that like we're not
[57:09] completely clueless moving through the
[57:12] world. But when we reduce it to a simple
[57:15] binary, is this person lying or telling
[57:17] the truth?
[57:19] >> We lose a lot of kind of like the nuance
[57:21] of how we move through our relationships
[57:25] and like, oh, I'm feeling kind of close
[57:27] to this person, closer to that person.
[57:29] I'm willing to help this person more
[57:31] than that person. Yeah. So, those are
[57:33] the kinds of things I've been interested
[57:34] in. One of the things I spoke to Vanessa
[57:36] Van Edwards on this podcast a few times
[57:38] and she she does a lot of stuff around
[57:39] like body language and how you show up
[57:41] and she talks about warmth and
[57:43] competence.
[57:44] >> Yeah.
[57:45] >> And how some people can overindex on
[57:46] warmth and maybe that brings them down
[57:48] on competence or they can overindex on
[57:50] competence but be less warm. Wanted to
[57:52] know if you had a perspective on this
[57:54] like how like through your research and
[57:57] through all the studies you've done
[58:00] can you be warm and competent at the
[58:01] same time or is is there a bit of a
[58:03] trade-off? And like what even you used
[58:05] the word warmth a second ago. What is it
[58:07] to be a warm person? Is it to be like
[58:09] how is it like you know like
[58:11] >> No, it's like it is the sense that
[58:14] someone is kind and honest and
[58:17] trustworthy. It is your benevolent
[58:20] intentions toward another person. Right?
[58:24] So, we trust people to the extent that
[58:26] they are both warm and competent in this
[58:29] in the sense that like
[58:31] >> I'm going to trust you if I think you
[58:33] have benevolent intentions for me that I
[58:35] think you you like want to be kind to me
[58:38] >> but also if I think you can actually
[58:40] execute on that thing like do you have
[58:42] the competence the ability to actually
[58:45] you know do that thing make that
[58:46] connection for me at work right it's
[58:49] like if you are just warm but like
[58:52] you've got no you don't have like the
[58:54] the ability to to back it up, then we
[58:57] tend to trust those individuals less. So
[59:00] this warmth, high warmth, high
[59:02] competence tends to be associated with
[59:03] high trustworthiness.
[59:05] >> And does high warmth come with certain
[59:08] behaviors?
[59:09] >> Yeah. I mean, one is just smiling.
[59:12] [laughter]
[59:12] >> Okay. Yeah.
[59:14] eye contact, you know, it it reminds me
[59:17] of the research by Allison Woodbrooks,
[59:19] who I know has been here before as well.
[59:22] And, you know, being engaged and
[59:24] interested in your
[59:27] conversation partner, right? Being these
[59:29] like immediacy cues like you're leaning
[59:31] in, you're paying attention, you are
[59:34] smiling, you're making eye contact.
[59:36] These things are associated with warmth.
[59:37] >> What about
[59:39] resting face? [laughter]
[59:42] uh I am occasionally guilty of this
[59:45] thing when I [laughter]
[59:47] concentrate. So
[59:50] when we have very little information
[59:52] about a person, we're just trying to
[59:54] pick up on anything right in their in
[59:57] their body language, their non-verbal
[59:59] behavior to try to make an assessment of
[1:00:02] them. If we've just got like a quick
[1:00:04] look at your face and there's a bit of a
[1:00:07] scowl on it, that signals to us anger.
[1:00:10] And anger is not a very trust that's not
[1:00:13] a warm thing, right? And so that tends
[1:00:16] to decrease our perceived
[1:00:17] trustworthiness of people.
[1:00:18] >> Any other fascinating questions you've
[1:00:20] pursued in your lab?
[1:00:21] >> So I've been really interested in
[1:00:24] psychopathy as it relates to like
[1:00:27] leadership outcomes.
[1:00:29] >> So whenever I finished my PhD,
[1:00:32] I was trying to figure out what I was
[1:00:34] going to do next. And I was kind of
[1:00:36] bummed out thinking about murder all the
[1:00:39] time. I was like, I really love these
[1:00:41] topics, but I got to I got to go
[1:00:43] somewhere else and like think about this
[1:00:45] in a different context. It was shortly
[1:00:47] after like the Bernie Maidoff Ponzi
[1:00:49] scheme kind of fell apart. And I was
[1:00:51] like, oh, maybe like business school,
[1:00:54] like I could go to a different context
[1:00:56] and study these same like personality
[1:00:58] traits just in a different area. And I
[1:01:02] was also interested in like this notion
[1:01:04] of uh successful psychopathy because
[1:01:07] like since really early descriptions of
[1:01:09] psychopathy, there's been this
[1:01:11] suggestion that these traits can
[1:01:12] actually help you to succeed, right? And
[1:01:15] I often hear that from people where
[1:01:17] they're like,
[1:01:19] "Yeah, like that's terrible behavior,
[1:01:21] but like you know, sometimes that helps,
[1:01:23] right?" And I'm like, "Does it like
[1:01:25] what's what does the data say on that?"
[1:01:28] And so I work with um Derer Kelner and
[1:01:31] >> Dak has been here as well.
[1:01:32] >> Has he?
[1:01:33] >> Yeah,
[1:01:33] >> I love him. He's so wonderful. I love
[1:01:36] him. And so we studied, you know, the
[1:01:38] extent to which psychopathic personality
[1:01:40] traits could increase the amount of
[1:01:42] influence you have in government and
[1:01:45] also the amount of money that you make
[1:01:46] as a hedge fund manager. Those are kind
[1:01:48] of the two cont because I was like these
[1:01:50] hyper competitive contexts, right,
[1:01:54] where maybe in government you can kind
[1:01:56] of like backstab and backroom deals and
[1:01:58] whatever. They might be able you might
[1:02:00] be able to get lots of co-sponsors on
[1:02:01] your bills if you're using kind of these
[1:02:03] backroom tactics. And then I thought
[1:02:06] with respect to money, maybe you're
[1:02:08] willing to take more risks, right?
[1:02:10] You're willing to cut people or
[1:02:12] companies down in public. you're not so
[1:02:15] worried about hurting other people. So
[1:02:20] I of course was like these are
[1:02:21] situations where people with high levels
[1:02:23] of psychopathy can shine. Derer was like
[1:02:27] no [laughter] it won't be. So we were
[1:02:29] kind of pitting these like good versus
[1:02:30] evil concepts against each other and
[1:02:33] consistently we found that high levels
[1:02:35] of psychopathy was associated with less
[1:02:38] influence in government. It was also
[1:02:41] associated with making less money as a
[1:02:44] hedge fund manager whereas it's very
[1:02:46] like counterintuitive
[1:02:48] I think to people.
[1:02:50] >> What about some of these other ones like
[1:02:51] narcissism and machavel? What about
[1:02:53] those ones?
[1:02:54] >> So it really depends on like how you
[1:02:56] define success. So there is some
[1:02:58] research to suggest that narcissism,
[1:03:00] machavelianism can be associated with
[1:03:02] kind of rising up in ranks, maybe having
[1:03:04] a higher salary level, but
[1:03:07] they're not associated with like teams
[1:03:10] doing great, right? And honestly, most
[1:03:14] of the research is is on um psychopathy.
[1:03:17] the the work that I'm interested in is
[1:03:19] that people with high levels of
[1:03:22] psychopathy, they talk a really good
[1:03:24] game and they make people think that
[1:03:26] they're a great like tactical
[1:03:28] communicator. They're very strategic
[1:03:30] thinkers. But if you actually ask them
[1:03:32] like how good are they at their job,
[1:03:34] they say they're they're a terrible
[1:03:36] manager. They tend to bully their
[1:03:38] subordinates. They create a huge amount
[1:03:40] of stress for other people on their
[1:03:43] team. Um and their teams have worse
[1:03:44] outcomes because of it. So, when you're
[1:03:47] talking about team performance, you're
[1:03:49] saying narcissists typically aren't good
[1:03:51] at leading teams over the long term,
[1:03:55] >> they tend to come across as like
[1:03:57] leadership material early on. And
[1:04:00] there's this one study by um Dell Paul
[1:04:02] House which shows this quite nicely is
[1:04:04] like they had these student groups and
[1:04:06] they would work together throughout the
[1:04:07] term. After the first meeting, they all
[1:04:08] made judgments about each other, how
[1:04:10] likable they were, etc., etc., whether
[1:04:13] they seemed, you know, confident and
[1:04:15] smart and, you know, agreeable. The
[1:04:18] people who were high in narcissism
[1:04:20] came across really well in that first
[1:04:23] interaction. Like they said they they
[1:04:25] knew what they were doing. They came
[1:04:26] across very confident. They seemed like
[1:04:29] they could lead. They wanted to lead,
[1:04:32] but then as the course of the the term
[1:04:34] went by, people were like, "This person
[1:04:36] is actually really hostile and like
[1:04:39] doesn't do their work and they're a pain
[1:04:41] in the butt." So
[1:04:43] certainly the you know the thing that
[1:04:45] can make narcissism look good at the
[1:04:49] outset is our confusion of confidence
[1:04:52] and competence. So when someone says
[1:04:55] they can do something and they say it
[1:04:56] very confidently, we're like, "Oh, they
[1:04:58] got this." Right? But that's not the
[1:05:00] same thing as actually being able to do
[1:05:02] it. There's often like an assumption
[1:05:04] that people that are actors or have
[1:05:07] certain roles where they're on stage
[1:05:09] performing have higher levels of some of
[1:05:11] these things. Is that is there any truth
[1:05:13] to that at all?
[1:05:15] >> Not to my knowledge. Although
[1:05:18] so I think where it would mostly
[1:05:21] intersect is like if you have any
[1:05:23] training in like the Stanislavski
[1:05:25] technique which is like trying to
[1:05:28] experience an emotion. Like if I need to
[1:05:30] portray an emotion to you, I want to
[1:05:32] come across as genuinely sad in this
[1:05:34] scene or whatever, I might recall a time
[1:05:37] in which I genuinely felt sad to try to
[1:05:39] like bring that emotion up as opposed to
[1:05:42] like trying to fake it. I try to
[1:05:43] actually feel it. So that kind of
[1:05:46] training might help you to like, you
[1:05:47] know, mimic some emotions. But to I
[1:05:51] don't know of any research that would
[1:05:52] suggest that actors would be higher in
[1:05:55] these traits or not. Uh equally, we have
[1:05:58] some cards here which are people's
[1:06:00] dating profiles.
[1:06:01] >> Okay.
[1:06:02] >> And I'm wondering if you can spot any of
[1:06:03] these dark personality traits just by
[1:06:05] looking at dating profiles or any clues,
[1:06:07] >> okay,
[1:06:07] >> that might be associated with it.
[1:06:09] >> All right.
[1:06:11] So, this is Ryan. He's a chief of staff
[1:06:14] in Washington DC. Professionally trained
[1:06:17] to argue my point. So, yes, I'm probably
[1:06:19] going to win the debate about what to
[1:06:21] have for dinner. Okay, this feels like a
[1:06:23] red [laughter] flag. Um, savvy,
[1:06:25] strategic, and persuasive by trade. I
[1:06:28] mean, this feels very much like
[1:06:30] Machavevelianism,
[1:06:32] right? Kind of like controlling the
[1:06:33] situation, being kind of a smooth
[1:06:36] talker. Savvy meaning like they're
[1:06:40] they're controlling you. They're maybe
[1:06:42] using information to get you to do what
[1:06:45] they want. Strategic, right? We talked
[1:06:47] about that very kind of strategic social
[1:06:50] style where like they're not kind of
[1:06:52] impulsively behaving like someone with
[1:06:55] psychopathy. They're more like three
[1:06:57] playing three-dimensional chess, right,
[1:06:59] to get what they want. So that's quite a
[1:07:01] strategic behavior.
[1:07:02] >> Off the clock, you'll find me exploring
[1:07:04] the city, enjoying great food,
[1:07:06] traveling, and keeping life interesting,
[1:07:07] looking for someone who makes me laugh.
[1:07:09] So I think the words to me that are like
[1:07:13] might be used as like euphemisms
[1:07:15] essentially for some of the
[1:07:17] Machavevelian traits would be savvy,
[1:07:20] strategic, persuasive, like I can get
[1:07:22] anybody to do anything cuz I'm just
[1:07:24] going to manipulate them into doing it.
[1:07:26] Now
[1:07:28] these these could be red flags. He could
[1:07:30] be a perfectly nice guy, but these are
[1:07:33] things that I would like go into that
[1:07:35] conversation thinking like, okay, does
[1:07:38] he seem very cynical of people? Is he
[1:07:40] quite power hungry? Is he willing to
[1:07:43] manipulate other people to his own ends
[1:07:45] and kind of step over other people for
[1:07:47] what he wants?
[1:07:48] >> What about that last line about makes me
[1:07:50] laugh? I I found that to be quite self-
[1:07:52] serving in a way cuz know it's it's
[1:07:55] you're looking for something yourself
[1:07:56] there and that's obviously can be true.
[1:07:59] We're all looking for someone that can
[1:08:00] make us laugh, but whether you'd write
[1:08:01] that is
[1:08:02] >> I don't know. Yeah,
[1:08:03] >> just interesting
[1:08:04] >> potentially. All right, so this is
[1:08:05] Haley, who is a lawyer. Uh, my friends
[1:08:08] call me hurricane, but you can call me
[1:08:10] Haley. Equal parts chaos and good
[1:08:12] company. Chaos is immediately bringing
[1:08:14] up uh potential psychopathy because
[1:08:18] that's like that impulsivity, like you
[1:08:20] kind of don't really know where she's
[1:08:21] at. In women in particular, psychopathy
[1:08:24] can be associated with like pretty
[1:08:26] volatile emotions and like connecting
[1:08:30] with like we seem really close one day
[1:08:32] and then I'm really angry at you the
[1:08:33] next day. I'll happily spend the weekend
[1:08:35] trying to trying a new workout class or
[1:08:38] plotting a harmless prank on my friends.
[1:08:41] That's a sadism [laughter] red flag. So,
[1:08:45] someone who is, you know, maybe
[1:08:47] delighting in someone else getting hurt,
[1:08:50] that could be concerning. Outspoken,
[1:08:53] tough enough to handle myself. Toughness
[1:08:55] is associated with psychopathy. Do you
[1:08:57] think you can handle me?
[1:09:00] [laughter]
[1:09:01] That's up to you.
[1:09:04] Okay. David is a brain surgeon. Very
[1:09:07] impressive. So, he's a surgeon by day,
[1:09:10] theater enthusiast, and cocktail
[1:09:11] appreciator by night. I'm confident
[1:09:13] enough to pick the restaurant, self
[1:09:15] assured to admit when I'm wrong
[1:09:17] occasionally.
[1:09:18] And my friends would describe me as the
[1:09:20] life of the party. So, this is giving
[1:09:23] like potential narcissism cues, right?
[1:09:26] So, loves a lot of attention, life of
[1:09:29] the party. Confident enough to pick like
[1:09:32] he he won't be wrong about picking the
[1:09:34] restaurant. Self assured enough to admit
[1:09:35] when I'm wrong occasionally, he put in
[1:09:38] brackets. So, you might not see a ton of
[1:09:41] that behavior. Don't worry, I'm sure I
[1:09:43] can find the time for you somewhere.
[1:09:45] [laughter] Winky face.
[1:09:49] So, you might not be a priority.
[1:09:51] [laughter]
[1:09:51] >> Yeah.
[1:09:52] >> But, you know, again, so I'm seeing
[1:09:55] narcissism vibes here. That's something
[1:09:57] I would, you know, pay attention to in
[1:09:59] our conversation would be like, does he
[1:10:01] ever ask anything about me or do we just
[1:10:04] talk about him and how fabulous and
[1:10:06] amazing his life is the whole time? M
[1:10:09] >> um so dating,
[1:10:12] you know, profiles are like an
[1:10:14] advertisement that [laughter] you put
[1:10:16] out there. So this is not an entire
[1:10:18] person's personality. So we can gather
[1:10:21] more information over time, but some red
[1:10:22] flags there.
[1:10:25] This is Chad. He's in law enforcement in
[1:10:27] Texas. He's barbecuing in the picture,
[1:10:30] which feels on brand. Looking for my
[1:10:32] wife who will join me for life. No debt
[1:10:34] and no kids. Don't worry, ladies. I'm
[1:10:37] housetrained. When I'm off duty, I'm
[1:10:39] very independent. You all find me
[1:10:41] hunting outdoors, grilling, or
[1:10:44] challenging my buddies, looking for
[1:10:45] someone genuine to share life's
[1:10:47] adventures with.
[1:10:50] >> Nice kind.
[1:10:51] >> Seems okay. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:10:55] >> I wonder what he's growling.
[1:10:56] >> Yeah. Okay. If I was to go on a date
[1:10:59] with any of these people, Haley, Ryan,
[1:11:01] David, Chad, from these dating cards
[1:11:03] that we just read out, what are the type
[1:11:05] of verbal and non-verbal cues that I
[1:11:07] would be looking for, whether I was
[1:11:09] dating them or in a relationship with
[1:11:10] them to figure out if they had any of
[1:11:12] these dark personality traits?
[1:11:14] >> Again, these are kind of early warning
[1:11:15] signs that you can look for. Um, things
[1:11:17] like, do they interrupt you often but
[1:11:20] refuse to tolerate it when you
[1:11:22] interrupt? Right? And so this is kind of
[1:11:24] a indication of that impulsivity as well
[1:11:26] as potential dominance over other
[1:11:28] people. They want to dominate you. And I
[1:11:30] mean sometimes people get excited and
[1:11:32] they just want to like interject and
[1:11:33] share something. Here what we're really
[1:11:35] interested in is it's a cue to
[1:11:37] impulsivity but like refusing to
[1:11:40] tolerate it when you interrupt. That
[1:11:41] makes them quite angry. Do they
[1:11:44] consistently ignore personal or
[1:11:46] professional boundaries? So, you know,
[1:11:49] maybe you're at work or maybe you're
[1:11:51] you're on one of these dates, right? And
[1:11:53] you say, "I' I'd really rather not talk
[1:11:55] about my family right now and they
[1:11:58] continue to ask you about your family."
[1:12:00] And you're like, "I really don't want to
[1:12:01] talk about that right now." Okay. Yeah.
[1:12:02] Tell me about your brother and this
[1:12:04] terrible relationship you have with
[1:12:05] them. So, kind of always pushing on
[1:12:08] boundaries even when they're they're set
[1:12:10] explicitly. Do they seem weirdly calm?
[1:12:13] This is related to psychopathy and that
[1:12:15] kind of shallow emotional affect like
[1:12:18] they're not experiencing fear or sadness
[1:12:21] or concern for other people when you
[1:12:23] would expect they would in a
[1:12:25] conversation.
[1:12:27] Do they seem to be an authority on every
[1:12:29] subject? This is a narcissism vibe,
[1:12:32] right? Like they know everything about
[1:12:34] everything and and you you don't know
[1:12:36] anything, right? So they need to be the
[1:12:39] authority. Do they offer impulsive
[1:12:41] off-the-cuff responses to your question?
[1:12:43] So, they're not really thinking about
[1:12:45] things. They're just saying whatever
[1:12:46] comes to their mind immediately, a sign
[1:12:48] of uh potential impulsivity. That's
[1:12:51] associated with psychopathy. Do they
[1:12:53] seem to come across as tough, combative,
[1:12:55] or cruel? Right. So, psychopathy
[1:12:58] associated with aggression, uh wanting
[1:13:00] to dominate people, cruelty, of course,
[1:13:03] sadism. So,
[1:13:04] >> Haley here, she said about throwing
[1:13:06] pranks, she's called herself tough.
[1:13:08] >> Mhm. and asked if we could handle her.
[1:13:11] So maybe that's lynx.
[1:13:12] >> Yep. Exactly. Um this one's interesting.
[1:13:15] So do they make intense eye contact with
[1:13:17] you seeming to peer into your soul? One
[1:13:20] of the things that clinicians have noted
[1:13:22] with people with high levels of
[1:13:23] psychopathy is that they tend to make
[1:13:24] really intense eye contact.
[1:13:27] >> H okay.
[1:13:29] >> Uh do they seem to lack emotions related
[1:13:30] to self-awareness such as embarrassment,
[1:13:32] embarrassment or shame? These are the
[1:13:34] kind of broader self-conscious emotions
[1:13:37] um like remorse, like guilt that are
[1:13:40] associated with uh psychopathy, a
[1:13:42] deficit in those. Do they spend a lot of
[1:13:45] time talking about themselves and show
[1:13:46] much less interest in you? That's our
[1:13:49] old friend narcissism.
[1:13:50] >> Mhm.
[1:13:50] >> Mhm.
[1:13:51] >> And when others are struggling, do they
[1:13:53] find it enjoyable, annoying, or boring?
[1:13:56] And that would be associated with
[1:13:58] sadism.
[1:13:59] >> This is something that I've made for
[1:14:01] you. I realized that the dire audience
[1:14:03] are strivvers. Whether it's in business
[1:14:05] or health, we all have big goals that we
[1:14:07] want to accomplish. And one of the
[1:14:09] things I've learned is that when you aim
[1:14:11] at the big big big goal, it can feel
[1:14:14] incredibly psychologically uncomfortable
[1:14:17] because it's kind of like being stood at
[1:14:18] the foot of Mount Everest and looking
[1:14:20] upwards. The way to accomplish your
[1:14:22] goals is by breaking them down into tiny
[1:14:24] small steps. And we call this in our
[1:14:26] team the 1%. And actually this
[1:14:28] philosophy is highly responsible for
[1:14:30] much of our success here. So what we've
[1:14:33] done so that you at home can accomplish
[1:14:34] any big goal that you have is we've made
[1:14:37] these 1% diaries and we released these
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[1:14:44] bring the diaries back but also to
[1:14:45] introduce some new colors and to make
[1:14:46] some minor tweaks to the diary. So now
[1:14:49] we have a better range for you. So, if
[1:14:53] you have a big goal in mind and you need
[1:14:55] a framework and a process and some
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[1:14:59] get one of these diaries before they all
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[1:15:02] yours at the diary.com.
[1:15:05] And if you want the link, the link is in
[1:15:06] the description below. There should be a
[1:15:08] button just down below here. And if it
[1:15:10] says subscribed, you're already
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[1:15:22] watches our show, but you haven't yet
[1:15:23] hit that button. Thank you so much. With
[1:15:25] two things in mind,
[1:15:26] >> Mhm.
[1:15:27] >> The first thing is that these dark
[1:15:29] personality traits are very common
[1:15:31] relative to the impact they can have on
[1:15:32] lives. I think they're extremely common.
[1:15:34] Uh and the second thing is that
[1:15:35] according to your book and some of the
[1:15:36] research, people don't tend to change.
[1:15:39] So this leads me to the conclusion that
[1:15:41] we might have to figure out how to deal
[1:15:42] with these people because if we work in
[1:15:44] a company or a team or even if we work
[1:15:46] in a family, if I look at some of those
[1:15:47] stats around antisocial personality
[1:15:49] behaviors,
[1:15:50] >> it would suggest roughly one in five
[1:15:52] people are going to be antisocial in
[1:15:54] some way.
[1:15:55] >> So we can't just hope to avoid them in
[1:15:58] our lives.
[1:15:59] >> No, you're I mean everyone's got a
[1:16:02] story, I think. And I think people feel
[1:16:04] relatively powerless like because the
[1:16:07] approaches that we tend to take with
[1:16:09] other people when they hurt us don't
[1:16:11] work very well for these individuals.
[1:16:12] Like when someone hurts us, we might be
[1:16:15] like we show them, we tell them that
[1:16:17] really hurt me and then they feel guilt
[1:16:19] and they might apologize, right? Or we
[1:16:22] might punish them in some way and then
[1:16:24] that leads them to avoid that behavior
[1:16:27] in the future. These are precisely
[1:16:29] things that people with psychopathy, for
[1:16:31] example, like doesn't really work,
[1:16:33] right? And so we're left being like, how
[1:16:35] do I deal with this? Like my tools are
[1:16:37] not working. But I think what's really
[1:16:40] kind of powerful to know is that there
[1:16:42] are things that you can do. So we've got
[1:16:45] seven rules for dealing with people with
[1:16:47] dark personalities. So the first one is
[1:16:51] to establish clear boundaries. And I
[1:16:55] want to kind of preface this by saying
[1:16:57] like setting out the rules is not like a
[1:16:59] guarantee that they won't be broken.
[1:17:00] Right? We've talked about with respect
[1:17:02] to psychopathy that they tend to break
[1:17:04] the rules. That's like a defining
[1:17:05] feature of that personality.
[1:17:07] [sighs and gasps]
[1:17:08] But research suggests that establishing
[1:17:11] clear rules, making them explicit
[1:17:14] decreases the likelihood of kind of
[1:17:16] selfish behavior, for example,
[1:17:19] compared to if there's no rules
[1:17:21] whatsoever. Right.
[1:17:23] >> Okay. So sometimes like you know in my
[1:17:25] workplace we have a respectful workplace
[1:17:27] policy which when I read it was like why
[1:17:30] do people need a respectful like why do
[1:17:32] people need to be reminded of this this
[1:17:34] seems so obvious right but there's
[1:17:36] really good reasons to have a
[1:17:37] respectable workplace policy. One is
[1:17:39] that it makes very explicit how we
[1:17:42] expect people to be treated here. that
[1:17:44] is going to decrease the likelihood of
[1:17:46] people even with with you know kind of
[1:17:49] moderate levels of these traits let's
[1:17:50] say will violate those rules and more
[1:17:53] than that if they do violate the rules
[1:17:55] you've got you've got something written
[1:17:57] down that's like you're not supposed to
[1:17:59] do this otherwise it's very hard to kind
[1:18:01] of do anything about it right in a
[1:18:04] relationship you can make this really
[1:18:05] clear like what's okay what's not okay
[1:18:07] in this relationship and you got to tell
[1:18:09] the other person that it can't just be
[1:18:10] in your head right so you got to make
[1:18:13] these rules um explicit and it can also
[1:18:16] help to like read in a buddy like if
[1:18:18] you've got a friend and you're like okay
[1:18:21] these are the things that I want out of
[1:18:22] a relationship partner these are like no
[1:18:25] goes these are behaviors that cross the
[1:18:27] red line
[1:18:29] having you know a friend that knows what
[1:18:32] those are that can tell you when your
[1:18:34] boundaries are slipping can be really
[1:18:36] useful
[1:18:37] >> I was thinking of one particular context
[1:18:39] that I know and I'll keep it anonymous
[1:18:40] as well where there's five people that I
[1:18:43] know It is a family that I know of and
[1:18:44] they have five five kids
[1:18:47] >> and one of the family members was
[1:18:49] telling me that they are the only one
[1:18:51] that has maintained a bar boundary
[1:18:53] against one of the um older parents
[1:18:56] who's got a track record of like some of
[1:18:58] these dark personality traits. And she
[1:18:59] was telling me that because she has
[1:19:01] always maintained a boundary against the
[1:19:03] father who is the person that has dark
[1:19:05] personality traits. the father has
[1:19:08] almost left her alone and has gone for
[1:19:09] the other four siblings more so
[1:19:11] >> and that the other four siblings are
[1:19:12] suffering because they don't have an
[1:19:14] established boundary. Whereas what I'm
[1:19:15] saying here is it's interesting that
[1:19:17] someone who has a boundary seems to be
[1:19:19] prayed on less
[1:19:21] >> by the narcissist or person with
[1:19:23] Machavelian personality than those that
[1:19:26] haven't established one. And and if that
[1:19:28] is true, then what is it about the the
[1:19:30] the psychopathic or narcissistic person
[1:19:32] that is choosing easier targets or
[1:19:36] boundaryless targets?
[1:19:38] >> Is that does that hold as truth or or is
[1:19:40] that just anecdotal?
[1:19:41] >> So we do know from research that this is
[1:19:43] mostly in workplaces that workplaces
[1:19:45] that have kind of codes of fairness,
[1:19:49] people with high levels of these traits
[1:19:50] are less likely to, you know, keep a
[1:19:52] bunch of the bonus money for themselves
[1:19:54] instead of share it among their team
[1:19:56] fairly. So there's evidence of like
[1:19:58] having rules in place increases the
[1:20:00] likelihood that they will follow those
[1:20:02] rules relative to like a no holds bar
[1:20:04] kind of situation.
[1:20:06] >> There's also research on uh you know how
[1:20:09] people with high levels of psychopathic
[1:20:11] traits kind of choose who to
[1:20:16] who to prey upon essentially. And
[1:20:18] individuals who are not very assertive
[1:20:21] um tend to be more likely to, you know,
[1:20:25] kind of it's almost like they're like
[1:20:27] picking, you know, the weakest of the
[1:20:29] herd or something like that. So having
[1:20:32] asserting asserting some boundaries can
[1:20:34] help to, you know, not have that target
[1:20:39] on your back. I was thinking about a
[1:20:41] guest that I interviewed on this podcast
[1:20:42] that was telling me she had gone through
[1:20:44] domestic violence and she um was telling
[1:20:46] me about like the love bombing process
[1:20:48] as to how this individual had like
[1:20:50] broken down her boundaries and her
[1:20:52] confidence over time
[1:20:53] >> and then had isolated her from her
[1:20:56] friends and family wouldn't allow her to
[1:20:58] call her mom would give her a script
[1:21:00] when her mom called and those kinds of
[1:21:01] things. And one of the the remarkable
[1:21:03] things I observed is how over time
[1:21:06] they'd sort of broken down their
[1:21:07] confidence
[1:21:08] >> in order to be able to seemingly control
[1:21:10] them.
[1:21:10] >> Mhm.
[1:21:11] >> Is this a is this common practice?
[1:21:14] >> Uh yeah, in in domestic
[1:21:17] violence situation. You know, it kind of
[1:21:20] reminds me of the the kind of emerging
[1:21:22] research on gaslighting where someone
[1:21:25] would,
[1:21:27] you know, make make their partner kind
[1:21:29] of doubt their sense of reality. Uh kind
[1:21:32] of, you know, correcting them all the
[1:21:34] time like you're being too sensitive.
[1:21:36] You don't see the truth around you. And
[1:21:39] I think what's kind of so um insidious
[1:21:42] about that is that it makes you
[1:21:44] dependent on that other person. And then
[1:21:47] the isolation can really decrease the
[1:21:50] your ability to kind of like get out of
[1:21:52] it because you don't have someone else
[1:21:54] who can, you know, check your sense of
[1:21:56] reality that you really are seeing and
[1:21:58] feeling and remembering things that
[1:22:00] really did happen even though they're
[1:22:01] telling you that it didn't.
[1:22:03] >> What is gaslighting? Cuz we we throw
[1:22:05] around the term all the time. The minute
[1:22:07] someone lies, we say, "You're
[1:22:08] gaslighting me."
[1:22:09] >> Yeah. It's a a pattern of denying
[1:22:13] someone's version of reality. So you
[1:22:15] might tell people that, you know, they
[1:22:18] shouldn't be feeling the way that
[1:22:19] they're feeling. Things didn't happen
[1:22:21] like they are remembering they happened.
[1:22:24] That they can't trust their own, you
[1:22:26] know, sense of, you know, perception of
[1:22:30] reality. And so it can be incredibly
[1:22:33] kind of destabilizing and isolating. And
[1:22:35] what is worrisome about that is that we
[1:22:39] really need other people to help us see
[1:22:43] reality. And so if we we're only seeing
[1:22:45] it through like their lens of we can't
[1:22:49] be trusted, our own eyes, our own memory
[1:22:51] can't be trusted, we start to depend on
[1:22:54] their perception, which is essentially a
[1:22:57] a control tactic. And research does
[1:22:59] suggest that people with high levels of
[1:23:01] these traits endorse these tact. They
[1:23:05] like they don't see anything wrong with
[1:23:07] doing that to a romantic partner, which
[1:23:09] would probably follow um that they would
[1:23:11] be more likely to engage in it. A lot of
[1:23:13] romantic arguments would sound like
[1:23:15] gaslighting. I think within that
[1:23:16] definition of like, you know, let's go
[1:23:19] back to the cheating example. We said
[1:23:20] last Friday, I was doing something
[1:23:22] dodgy.
[1:23:23] >> You suspect I'm lying. So, you say to
[1:23:24] me, "No, you weren't, Steven. You
[1:23:26] weren't at the office till 3:00 a.m."
[1:23:27] And I go, "Yeah, yeah, I was. I was I
[1:23:29] was at the office. You don't know what
[1:23:31] you're talking about,
[1:23:32] >> Leanne. You weren't there. You You're
[1:23:34] making this up in your head."
[1:23:35] >> Yeah.
[1:23:36] >> Who was gaslighting who there? Cuz you
[1:23:37] said you denied my reality and now I'm
[1:23:39] denying your reality. Wait, but were you
[1:23:41] actually at the office?
[1:23:43] >> Does it matter? Like Jeremy, I'm trying
[1:23:45] to figure out if the beh which which one
[1:23:47] of us was gaslighting behavior there?
[1:23:49] >> Yeah. I think it would be like if if I
[1:23:52] say like, you know, I feel insecure. I
[1:23:54] feel threatened by like whatever you
[1:23:56] were doing on Friday and you're like,
[1:24:00] no, you don't. You don't like or you
[1:24:02] shouldn't feel that way. There there's
[1:24:04] no reason for you to feel that way.
[1:24:05] You're blowing things out of proportion.
[1:24:07] It's essentially like denying someone's
[1:24:10] actual my experience is that I feel
[1:24:12] threatened. And so it's like even if I
[1:24:14] might be wrong about that, that is my
[1:24:17] experience.
[1:24:17] >> So I could deny the facts theoretically.
[1:24:20] I could say no, at 2 a.m. I was,
[1:24:22] >> you know, falling asleep on my desk.
[1:24:24] >> I could maybe argue with the facts, but
[1:24:26] it's when you start arguing with someone
[1:24:28] else's perception of reality,
[1:24:29] >> yes,
[1:24:30] >> of their own subjective experience,
[1:24:31] that's when you stray into this
[1:24:33] gaslighting. Okay.
[1:24:35] In the example I gave earlier from my
[1:24:36] guest, that's exactly what happened to
[1:24:37] her. What he started to do is he started
[1:24:40] hiding her stuff in places. So he put
[1:24:42] her car keys in the fridge
[1:24:44] >> to make her feel like she'd gone crazy.
[1:24:45] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[1:24:46] >> Which is crazy. It's absolutely
[1:24:47] bonkers.
[1:24:48] >> Wild.
[1:24:49] >> Okay, that makes sense. So that was
[1:24:50] establishing clear boundaries. Really,
[1:24:52] what I was getting at is do they try and
[1:24:53] erode those boundaries or do they leave
[1:24:55] you alone?
[1:24:56] >> So they're likely to try to push on
[1:24:58] them, but less so than if you have no
[1:25:01] boundaries at all.
[1:25:01] >> Okay.
[1:25:02] >> Yep. So the next one is don't give them
[1:25:04] power over others. We've talked about
[1:25:07] kind of all of these different traits
[1:25:08] and that they you know machinism is
[1:25:11] actually kind of named after the pursuit
[1:25:13] of power. Psychopathy is associated with
[1:25:15] doineering people. Narcissism I'm better
[1:25:17] than you. I'm a born leader. All of
[1:25:19] these are kind of related to power.
[1:25:22] People with these traits tend to be very
[1:25:24] interested in having power over other
[1:25:27] people. But we know from research that
[1:25:29] this does not tend to go well for those
[1:25:32] individuals who are working underneath
[1:25:34] them. So at work for example, we know
[1:25:37] that people who are working under a boss
[1:25:39] with more psychopathic traits report
[1:25:41] being more stressed out. They also tend
[1:25:44] to be more likely to bring that stress
[1:25:45] home and that creates more family
[1:25:48] conflict. So it kind of spreads. It
[1:25:49] doesn't stay where it is. They tend to
[1:25:51] create uh division within teams. They
[1:25:55] also tend to increase the likelihood of
[1:25:57] turnover intentions. So, you know, if
[1:26:00] you're working for a boss with these
[1:26:02] traits, you're like, I got to get the
[1:26:03] hell out of here. So, you're you're
[1:26:05] churning through staff, right? So,
[1:26:08] giving them power over others is not a
[1:26:12] great way to to kind of yeah to deal
[1:26:16] with them. So, you don't want to give
[1:26:18] them power over others even when they
[1:26:20] want it, but there's other things that
[1:26:22] you can give them that they do want. And
[1:26:23] this is essentially like negotiating
[1:26:25] 101, right? So like you can look for
[1:26:29] win-wins when you're negotiating with
[1:26:31] them. Recognizing that what they
[1:26:34] consider motivation to get to this
[1:26:37] win-win might not be what you consider
[1:26:39] to be motivation to get to this win-win.
[1:26:41] So imagine that like you've got this um
[1:26:44] this employee who is bullying his
[1:26:46] subordinates and you're like you really
[1:26:49] need to treat your team better because
[1:26:52] they are so stressed out and they uh you
[1:26:55] know are going home from work and
[1:26:56] they're crying to their spouses and you
[1:26:58] know they're bringing it home and
[1:27:00] they're they're getting sick because of
[1:27:01] this.
[1:27:03] You're trying to make them feel
[1:27:05] compassion for other people to get them
[1:27:07] to behave better
[1:27:10] >> toward their team. That's not motivating
[1:27:12] to them, right? It might be motivating
[1:27:14] to other people, but people who with
[1:27:17] high levels of these traits, right, were
[1:27:19] callous, not concerned about other
[1:27:21] people. However,
[1:27:23] that doesn't mean that they can't do
[1:27:25] something kind or helpful, right? They
[1:27:27] might just do it for a different reason.
[1:27:28] So if you know that the team is
[1:27:30] suffering under this person's current
[1:27:33] like bullying management style, you
[1:27:35] could say, you know, you've got this,
[1:27:37] you know, sales bonus that's coming up,
[1:27:39] but your team is so stressed out that
[1:27:41] you're not going to meet that target and
[1:27:42] you're not going to get your your bonus,
[1:27:45] right? You need to treat your your team
[1:27:48] differently. Money, they like money.
[1:27:51] [laughter] They like power. They like
[1:27:53] status. And so it's not that they can't
[1:27:56] behave better. is that they might do it
[1:27:57] for a different reason.
[1:27:59] >> So trying to understand what motivates
[1:28:01] them.
[1:28:01] >> Yeah.
[1:28:02] >> And trying to figure out how you can use
[1:28:04] that. The next one is use the carrot,
[1:28:06] not the stick. So we've talked about
[1:28:07] this a little bit where people
[1:28:09] particularly with high levels of
[1:28:10] psychopathy very reward sensitive but
[1:28:14] not very punishment sensitive. So you
[1:28:18] can try to punish them but literally
[1:28:21] their brains don't process punishment in
[1:28:22] the same way. they don't develop that
[1:28:24] kind of link between if I do this
[1:28:26] behavior then fear of punishment again.
[1:28:29] So like they're more likely to repeat it
[1:28:31] than people with low levels of these
[1:28:33] traits. So punishment, you know, there
[1:28:35] there's a place for it I suppose, but
[1:28:37] it's like it's not going to be as
[1:28:39] effective with these personalities in
[1:28:41] particular. And I think what's terrible,
[1:28:43] what we are losing a huge opportunity on
[1:28:46] is that we don't use the carrot instead
[1:28:49] when the carrot is so powerful. So
[1:28:51] sometimes people are like, "They're a
[1:28:53] bad person. I'm not going to reward
[1:28:55] anything that they do." Like, I'm not
[1:28:56] going to give them any kind of positive
[1:28:58] feedback because I think they're
[1:29:00] terrible, right? But if they do
[1:29:03] something kind or honest or helpful, oh
[1:29:07] my god, reward them. Reward them not
[1:29:09] with power over others, but maybe with
[1:29:11] like a bonus at work, with like a job
[1:29:14] title, because they really care about
[1:29:15] status. That's a um a reward that they
[1:29:19] will really like. and you are going to
[1:29:21] increase the likelihood that you get
[1:29:22] more of that behavior in the future.
[1:29:24] >> I think there'll be some people
[1:29:25] listening right now that are thinking,
[1:29:27] shouldn't you just fire these people?
[1:29:28] Shouldn't you get all of these people
[1:29:29] out of your life if they've got sadism,
[1:29:31] narcissism, machavellianism,
[1:29:35] psychopathy,
[1:29:36] >> psychopathy? Yeah,
[1:29:37] >> psychopathy. Um, shouldn't you just
[1:29:38] throw them out your life?
[1:29:40] >> Yeah. I think given that there are, you
[1:29:43] know, a reasonable reasonably sized
[1:29:46] minority of the population has some
[1:29:49] elevated level of these traits, you're
[1:29:51] going to be chucking a you're going to
[1:29:52] be chucking a lot of people, right? And
[1:29:54] they also might genuinely have some like
[1:29:57] really useful skills that just, you
[1:30:00] know, you want in your company. You just
[1:30:02] need to learn how to manage these this
[1:30:05] personality trait. And so I think even
[1:30:08] if you know you have kind of a low
[1:30:09] tolerance for these personality traits,
[1:30:12] you're not going to be able to
[1:30:12] completely avoid them at all times. It
[1:30:15] might not be your decision to chuck them
[1:30:17] out of the company.
[1:30:18] >> A sibling or something.
[1:30:19] >> Yeah, exactly. It might be a person that
[1:30:22] you like you want to have a relationship
[1:30:24] with them even if that relationship is
[1:30:26] not perfect. You know, maybe it's a
[1:30:29] brother-in-law, right? and you're like,
[1:30:30] he's such a pain in the ass, but I see
[1:30:31] him like twice a year and I don't want
[1:30:33] to cut him out cuz that means I don't
[1:30:35] get to see my sister anymore and I love
[1:30:37] my sister and I want to support my
[1:30:38] sister. And so I think there's just like
[1:30:40] >> the the you know stay or go question is
[1:30:44] just so complicated and there's so many
[1:30:46] reasons why you might not be able to do
[1:30:48] that. And so we need to learn the skills
[1:30:50] to manage interactions with these people
[1:30:53] as well. Next one is emphasize your
[1:30:55] common identity. People with high levels
[1:30:58] of narcissism are not particularly
[1:31:00] interested in like kind of being fair to
[1:31:03] you or like you know being kind to you
[1:31:07] but they are interested in loyalty.
[1:31:10] There's these studies that are really
[1:31:12] fascinating where they just tell people
[1:31:14] like oh you guys have the same birthday
[1:31:17] or you have the same fingerprint type
[1:31:19] which I don't even think is a thing. Is
[1:31:21] that a thing anyway? But people think we
[1:31:23] have some sort of commonality. Then
[1:31:26] people are people with high levels of
[1:31:28] narcissism
[1:31:29] get less angry when you give them
[1:31:31] negative feedback if they think you've
[1:31:33] got something in common with them. So if
[1:31:35] you start your conversation with, you
[1:31:38] know, maybe that that uncle at
[1:31:39] Thanksgiving who's like always combative
[1:31:41] and talks about himself all the time and
[1:31:43] you're like, "Oh, you know, we went to
[1:31:44] the same university. We root for the
[1:31:46] same football team." Whatever it is, you
[1:31:48] start with what you have in common.
[1:31:50] You're like, "Okay, we are one, right?"
[1:31:52] And then if you need to say, "You know
[1:31:54] what? you really need to pick up your
[1:31:56] game and help him with the care of
[1:31:58] grandma,
[1:31:59] >> then he might be more willing to listen
[1:32:01] to that as opposed to just like getting
[1:32:03] negative feedback. You know, people with
[1:32:05] high levels of narcissism don't like
[1:32:06] that. Um, so emphasizing your common
[1:32:08] identity can help to tamp that down. I'd
[1:32:11] sat here with Tally Sherott who's this
[1:32:12] neuroscientist and she'd looked at the
[1:32:14] subject of disagreement quite
[1:32:16] extensively and she'd put people in
[1:32:17] these brain scanners and basically got
[1:32:20] them to disagree with each other at some
[1:32:21] point and looked at what happened in
[1:32:23] their brain and what she told me she
[1:32:25] observed is essentially and I'm you know
[1:32:27] I'm generalizing wildly here so please
[1:32:29] do fact check me on the screen she
[1:32:32] basically observed that the brain
[1:32:33] changed when someone disagreed with you
[1:32:35] and I was on a um phone call the other
[1:32:38] day with about 10 different people from
[1:32:41] a company we're doing a deal with and I
[1:32:43] just observed that one person would
[1:32:46] often open up their rebuttal when they
[1:32:49] felt had a difference of opinion with
[1:32:51] the phrase I completely disagree
[1:32:53] >> and then they would make their point and
[1:32:55] so funnily enough I got straight off the
[1:32:57] call even though I'd written about this
[1:32:58] previously I got straight off the call
[1:33:00] and like did did a bit of research as to
[1:33:03] whether I
[1:33:05] >> I just find that to be quite ineffective
[1:33:08] behavior or if there's research around
[1:33:11] it. And what I found is it says yes,
[1:33:15] there is extensive research across
[1:33:17] social psychology and behavioral
[1:33:19] economics and linguistics showing that
[1:33:21] opening a counterargument or a rebuttal
[1:33:23] with explicit adversarial phrasing like
[1:33:25] I disagree actively will hinder your
[1:33:27] ability to persuade somebody. When you
[1:33:29] start a rebuttal with I disagree,
[1:33:30] several psychological mechanisms trigger
[1:33:32] in the other person's brain and that
[1:33:34] goes into the detail about what's going
[1:33:36] on in their brain. I just it seems so
[1:33:38] somewhat linked to what you're saying
[1:33:39] there about like how you keep the other
[1:33:40] person receptive.
[1:33:41] >> Mhm. Totally. Okay. So, this reminds me
[1:33:44] of another study on I think it's like
[1:33:45] really doineering bosses. If you need to
[1:33:49] give them negative feedback like I don't
[1:33:52] know say you you hate the way that we're
[1:33:54] running this particular process. You
[1:33:56] these three forms should be one form
[1:33:57] like why are we spending so much this is
[1:34:00] like you know the bane of office
[1:34:01] existence.
[1:34:03] If you say
[1:34:05] this is so stupid, you need to change
[1:34:08] the way that we're doing, you know, like
[1:34:09] kind of coming in hot. Particularly
[1:34:12] people with high levels of narcissistic
[1:34:14] traits are like we don't like this kind
[1:34:16] of, you know, ego threat. You're threat,
[1:34:18] you're criticizing me. You're giving me
[1:34:20] negative feedback. I'm just like
[1:34:21] shutting it down, right? I'm not I don't
[1:34:23] even hear what you're saying. Whereas,
[1:34:25] if you phrase it as a question, like,
[1:34:27] what do you think if we turn these three
[1:34:28] forms into one form? M
[1:34:31] >> phrasing it as a question just kind of
[1:34:33] like makes it softer and makes them more
[1:34:36] willing to just hear it like maybe you
[1:34:38] you ultimately won't get to that one
[1:34:39] form but you'll at least get a little
[1:34:42] bit further in that conversation. I
[1:34:45] think that's true for you know it's true
[1:34:46] for everybody but especially when it
[1:34:49] comes to people um who are really
[1:34:51] doineering which these personalities
[1:34:53] tend to be.
[1:34:55] >> Okay. So like you kind of cocreate the
[1:34:58] solution really you know. Okay.
[1:35:00] Interesting.
[1:35:01] >> Yeah.
[1:35:01] >> Okay.
[1:35:02] >> Become a detective and notice their
[1:35:04] cues. So, we know that they tend to lie
[1:35:07] a lot. Being manipulative, telling lies
[1:35:09] is kind of part of their MMO. That's
[1:35:11] what all these traits share. And so,
[1:35:13] being able to identify, know what those
[1:35:16] cues of deception are, know that we're
[1:35:18] not looking for gaze aversion. We're not
[1:35:20] looking for fidgeting. We're looking for
[1:35:22] those lack of verifiable details. We're
[1:35:24] looking for relatively few details.
[1:35:26] We're looking for signs of cognitive
[1:35:28] strain. and maybe like following up,
[1:35:31] right? If we start to see some of those
[1:35:32] red flags and finally
[1:35:35] avoid face-to-face negotiations. So,
[1:35:38] this is like a really simple move that
[1:35:40] can be really helpful. So, some research
[1:35:43] out of same university as me, University
[1:35:45] of British Columbia, um had people with
[1:35:48] various levels of these dark traits
[1:35:52] engage in a negotiation. It was just
[1:35:53] over like the price of concert tickets.
[1:35:55] >> Mhm. But what they found is that
[1:35:58] whenever those negotiations occurred
[1:36:01] face to face, the person with the high
[1:36:03] level of psychopathic traits or or any
[1:36:06] of these dark traits, they got a really
[1:36:09] good deal. Like they were able to
[1:36:10] command a whole bunch of money for these
[1:36:12] concert tickets. Whereas if they engage
[1:36:14] in this negotiation over text,
[1:36:18] that wasn't the case. So if you need to
[1:36:22] negotiate with someone,
[1:36:24] these dark traits can be like really
[1:36:27] doineering, really kind of, you know,
[1:36:29] superficially charming sometimes in
[1:36:31] person and then you can kind of like let
[1:36:33] your guard down and they're going to
[1:36:34] take advantage of you. If you reduce
[1:36:37] them to words on the page, they lose
[1:36:39] some of that like charisma, right? But
[1:36:42] there's also other like practical
[1:36:43] reasons like, you know, you've got a
[1:36:45] written version of what was agreed upon.
[1:36:47] like you can't gaslight me and tell me,
[1:36:49] you know, I'm misremembering what we
[1:36:51] agreed upon later. I've got a written
[1:36:52] version here. I've got some time
[1:36:55] >> to think about how I want to respond.
[1:36:58] Yeah, exactly.
[1:36:59] >> And, you know, if if violence is a
[1:37:01] concern, say you're talking about this
[1:37:03] is a a domestic violence situation. You
[1:37:06] got to get out of the house. you got to
[1:37:08] >> maybe negotiate, you know, some sort of
[1:37:10] settlement um in a divorce or something
[1:37:14] like being face to face can be
[1:37:18] dangerous, right? It literally puts some
[1:37:21] physical distance between yourself and
[1:37:22] that other person if violence is a
[1:37:24] concern. So there's all kinds of
[1:37:26] potential upsides to like if you got to
[1:37:29] negotiate like pop it into text, put it
[1:37:33] into the chat as opposed to sitting down
[1:37:36] face to face.
[1:37:37] >> I was thinking about all the things that
[1:37:38] are linked to just having a bit more
[1:37:40] time but also like the medium of text.
[1:37:42] And one of the things that came to mind
[1:37:43] is if someone does have those dark
[1:37:45] personality traits,
[1:37:46] >> they are probably more cautious about
[1:37:48] what they say if it's permanent and it's
[1:37:50] written. So like if I was sending you an
[1:37:52] email, I might say something to you in
[1:37:54] person, but if would I write that same
[1:37:55] thing on an email.
[1:37:57] >> Uh and the other one is in written form,
[1:37:59] you you as the person that's receiving
[1:38:02] the uh being on the receiving end, you
[1:38:04] have time to show other people and get
[1:38:07] another perspective. Even if it's like
[1:38:08] putting it into AI or asking Google or
[1:38:10] Yeah.
[1:38:11] >> checking if the facts are right or
[1:38:12] asking your like husband or partner if
[1:38:14] this is appropriate behavior.
[1:38:15] >> Totally. And like involving other people
[1:38:19] can be so helpful. So research suggests
[1:38:21] that whenever we discuss with other
[1:38:24] people before making a a truth lie
[1:38:26] judgment about someone else's
[1:38:28] statements, we tend to be more accurate.
[1:38:30] Whenever we're making judgments about
[1:38:32] someone's personality, if we're talking
[1:38:34] as a group, we tend to be more accurate.
[1:38:36] Another study that Derk Kelner did, he
[1:38:39] talked to a bunch of girls in a sorority
[1:38:43] and asked them who gets talked about the
[1:38:46] most like in gossip and uh also had
[1:38:49] people rate their personality. It was
[1:38:51] the Machavellian
[1:38:54] the more Machavevelian girls who were
[1:38:56] talked about the most.
[1:38:58] >> Talked about positively or negative.
[1:38:59] >> Negatively. Okay. Yeah. And so, you
[1:39:01] know, people we sometimes hear about
[1:39:03] like whisper networks too, like stay
[1:39:05] away from that guy at work or whatever.
[1:39:07] So, I would, you know, caution just
[1:39:10] believing everything you hear in the
[1:39:12] rumor mill. But sometimes people, you
[1:39:14] know, spread information about this was
[1:39:16] my experience with this person. And we
[1:39:18] can learn from other people's experience
[1:39:21] before having to go through it ourselves
[1:39:23] if we pay attention.
[1:39:26] And you've got three final cards down
[1:39:27] there which I think are
[1:39:29] >> these are three common mistakes people
[1:39:31] make when dealing with dark
[1:39:33] personalities.
[1:39:35] >> So the first one is it's just believing
[1:39:37] there's nothing you can do. So you know
[1:39:40] we've talked about how some of our our
[1:39:42] go-to responses when people hurt us like
[1:39:46] trying to make them feel badly trying to
[1:39:48] make them apologize to us like trying to
[1:39:50] punish them don't work so well. But
[1:39:53] we've also talked about all of the
[1:39:55] things you can do, right? So, we don't
[1:39:59] need to feel completely helpless.
[1:40:01] Another is assuming they have the same
[1:40:03] inner experience as you. You know, when
[1:40:06] we're trying to figure out what
[1:40:06] motivates people, again, we talked about
[1:40:08] this with respect to negotiation, right?
[1:40:11] Like what motivates you to do a thing
[1:40:12] might not be the same thing that
[1:40:13] motivates me to do a thing. I need to
[1:40:15] try to get into their head, figure out
[1:40:17] what their goals are, what would be
[1:40:19] motivating to change their behavior in
[1:40:20] this situation and try to, you know,
[1:40:22] frame our interaction in that way. Try
[1:40:24] to convince them to change their
[1:40:25] behavior for that reason. Not because I
[1:40:27] think they should or not because I would
[1:40:30] feel guilty if I did what they did,
[1:40:32] right?
[1:40:34] But lastly, you know, is thinking you
[1:40:36] can change them. So, if your ultimate
[1:40:38] goal is like, I'm going to stick around
[1:40:40] and they're going to be kind and honest
[1:40:44] and they're going to be super
[1:40:45] conscientious and helpful all the time.
[1:40:47] They're never going to break any rules.
[1:40:49] Like, I think we also need to be kind of
[1:40:51] cleareyed about the likelihood of that
[1:40:54] happening. M
[1:40:55] >> um and so instead we need to kind of
[1:40:57] deploy some of these strategies for
[1:41:00] making our day-to-day interactions a
[1:41:02] little more positive as opposed to just
[1:41:05] hoping that someday they're going to
[1:41:07] wake up, you know, with a different
[1:41:09] personality.
[1:41:10] >> What is the the most important thing we
[1:41:13] haven't talked about that we should have
[1:41:14] talked about as it relates to your work?
[1:41:16] And again, zooming in on the people that
[1:41:17] are listening that might benefit them in
[1:41:19] their lives.
[1:41:20] >> I think it's like a matter of numbers.
[1:41:23] [laughter]
[1:41:24] So, you know, we've talked about
[1:41:27] the, you know, 10% of people would
[1:41:29] generally agree with items that we use
[1:41:31] to measure these traits. That means that
[1:41:34] 90% of people would generally not agree,
[1:41:37] right? So, I want people to keep into
[1:41:39] perspective that like 90% of people,
[1:41:42] right, are good and kind and honest and
[1:41:45] not breaking the rules. We've got this
[1:41:47] 10%, right, that's not to say that 10%
[1:41:51] is causing little harm. In fact, they're
[1:41:52] causing hugely outsized harm. Right? So
[1:41:55] like with respect to psychopathy, that's
[1:41:58] about 1% of the population. They have
[1:42:00] clinical levels of it.
[1:42:03] Offenders with clinical levels of
[1:42:04] psychopathy account for about 50% of all
[1:42:07] serious crime. So these people are like
[1:42:09] doing incredibly outsiz harm. And we
[1:42:11] also feel that in our lives too, right?
[1:42:13] [clears throat] not necessarily in
[1:42:15] criminal wrap sheets maybe, but we've
[1:42:17] got like one person who's like
[1:42:19] constantly making things hard because of
[1:42:22] these traits. They're they're causing
[1:42:24] strife at work. They're um abusing
[1:42:26] people at home. And so if we can learn
[1:42:29] to mitigate the damage from just this
[1:42:32] small relatively small group of people,
[1:42:36] then we can dramatically improve our
[1:42:39] lives, um our workplaces, our
[1:42:41] interactions dayto-day. We have a
[1:42:44] closing tradition on this podcast where
[1:42:45] the last guest leaves a question for the
[1:42:46] next guest, not knowing who they're
[1:42:47] leaving it for.
[1:42:48] >> Okay.
[1:42:48] >> And the question that's been left for
[1:42:50] you is somewhat relevant. I like I like
[1:42:52] that you got this one is um what is one
[1:42:56] great lie we've all been told?
[1:43:02] >> I think one great lie we've all been
[1:43:04] told is that to be successful, you have
[1:43:07] to be in it for number one. and you need
[1:43:09] to, you know, exemplify some of these
[1:43:13] traits in order to get that promotion,
[1:43:16] to get that raise, to run that company
[1:43:19] that's worth millions of dollars. And,
[1:43:22] you know, even I went searching for
[1:43:24] evidence for that to show that people
[1:43:27] with high levels of psychopathy could
[1:43:29] use their kind of callous, cunning, you
[1:43:31] know, fearlessness in order to make more
[1:43:33] money as hedge fund managers. And I
[1:43:34] found the opposite. And so I think even
[1:43:37] in those areas where we think these
[1:43:40] traits lead to success, they fall short.
[1:43:43] And really
[1:43:47] taking other people with us and thinking
[1:43:49] about success as you know
[1:43:53] prestige and like respect from other
[1:43:55] people, care and concern about us from
[1:43:58] other people is a much truer version of
[1:44:01] success.
[1:44:02] >> Leanne, thank you so much. Thank you for
[1:44:04] writing a book that is incredibly
[1:44:06] illuminating in a way that is um
[1:44:08] researchbased whilst also being just
[1:44:11] unbelievably engaging. And I think these
[1:44:13] subjects are so pertinent to everybody
[1:44:15] listening. And I I know that they're
[1:44:17] going to love this conversation because
[1:44:19] much like you were when you started your
[1:44:21] career, we're all just trying to figure
[1:44:22] out the ultimate barrier and opportunity
[1:44:24] that all sits in front of us and that's
[1:44:26] just other people. Mhm.
[1:44:27] >> And again, as you said on one of the
[1:44:28] cards, but you articulated really nicely
[1:44:30] earlier on, we kind of go through the
[1:44:32] world thinking that everyone else's
[1:44:33] internal experience is a mirror of ours.
[1:44:35] >> Yeah.
[1:44:36] >> And it's very easy to get frustrated or
[1:44:38] to feel um like you're the problem or
[1:44:41] you're inadequate if that's the lens
[1:44:42] that you take to life. And I think
[1:44:44] through your research, you do exactly
[1:44:45] what you said, which is in a weird way,
[1:44:48] you do make us more empathetic and maybe
[1:44:50] more optimistic and less cynical about
[1:44:51] the nature of human experience. And so
[1:44:53] this is a wonderful, wonderful book for
[1:44:54] anyone that wants more information. I'm
[1:44:56] going to link it below. Poisonous
[1:44:57] people, how to resist them and improve
[1:44:59] your life. But also, it might be a good
[1:45:01] opportunity to buy this book for someone
[1:45:03] else who you know is dealing with a
[1:45:05] slightly poisonous person. Where do
[1:45:07] people go to to support your work and to
[1:45:09] find more from you?
[1:45:11] >> Um, they can find that book, you know,
[1:45:13] wherever books are sold. They can also
[1:45:15] find me on Instagram, Lean Tenbrank, on
[1:45:18] all the socials, Tik Tok, on YouTube.
[1:45:21] and uh I post little things about
[1:45:23] studies and findings that I think are
[1:45:25] interesting and hopefully they'll find
[1:45:27] it interesting too.
[1:45:28] >> Thank you so much.
[1:45:29] >> Thank you, Stephen. This has been so
[1:45:30] wonderful.
[1:45:31] >> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm
[1:45:33] where they know exactly what video you
[1:45:35] would like to watch next based on AI and
[1:45:38] all of your viewing behavior. And the
[1:45:39] algorithm says that this video is the
[1:45:42] perfect video for you. It's different
[1:45:44] for everybody looking right now. Check
[1:45:46] this video out and I bet you you might
[1:45:48] love