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Inspire

Spotting Liars and Dark Personalities:What Science Actually Reveals

The Diary of a CEO
The Diary of a CEO
Sep 7, 2026
12 min de lecture

Most people think they know how to catch a liar. Someone avoids eye contact, fidgets with their hands, won't hold still. These are the behaviors drilled into us by pop psychology, crime shows, and a century of folk wisdom. But according to Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, an Associate Professor of Psychology at the University of British Columbia and director of the Truth and Trust Lab, nearly everything the public believes about detecting deception is wrong. The myths don't just fail—they actively mislead, causing us to misread innocent people and misjudge those who are genuinely dangerous. What actually works requires an understanding of facial anatomy, behavioral inconsistency, and the specific microexpressions that leak truth even when someone is deliberately lying.

Lecture · 13 sections

Why the Eye Contact Myth Is Exactly Backwards

Ask a room full of people what sign indicates someone is lying, and the answer comes back almost unanimously: they can't look you in the eye. This belief is so widespread that it shapes interrogation techniques, parental confrontations, and everyday suspicions. Yet the research—accumulated across thousands of studies—shows no meaningful correlation between eye contact and truthfulness. "There's no research to suggest that that is true," ten Brinke explains. Some people lie fluently while maintaining steady eye contact. Others look away when telling the truth because they're anxious, embarrassed, or simply uncomfortable with confrontation. The behavior conflates guilt with dishonesty, a fundamental error.

The persistence of this myth reveals something deeper about how we intuitively try to read others. We fixate on gross motor behaviors—things we consciously notice—when the actual signals are far subtler and rooted in physiology we can't easily control.

The One Tool That Actually Works: The Duchenne Smile

If eye contact is misleading, what should you actually watch for? Ten Brinke's research, conducted in partnership with psychologist Scott Lilienfeld, began with a deceptively simple experiment. Researchers showed volunteers five-second, ten-second, and twenty-second video clips of criminal offenders being interviewed by a psychologist. The offenders had been formally rated on psychopathic personality traits by trained clinicians through hours-long assessments. Then naive volunteers—undergraduate psychology students with no training—watched just five seconds of video and made their own ratings of how callous and manipulative each person seemed.

The correlation was striking. Untrained observers watching five seconds aligned reasonably well with expert clinical judgment. When researchers coded the verbal and nonverbal behaviors in those clips, one pattern emerged with unusual clarity: people high in psychopathic traits produced what are called Duchenne smiles while saying hostile things. A Duchenne smile is a genuine-looking smile, distinguished by activation around the eyes—the creation of crow's feet and fine lines in the corner of the eyes. People without genuine emotional expression produce what ten Brinke calls a "non-Duchenne" smile: upturned lips, maybe teeth showing, but the eyes remain static. The distinction is anatomically honest. You can voluntarily control your mouth. You cannot easily voluntarily control the orbicularis oculi muscle, the tiny muscle that creates crow's feet. This is why a real smile reaches the eyes, and a fake one doesn't.

What made the research striking was the emotional incongruence. Individuals high in dark personality traits were flashing happy, Duchenne smiles—crow's feet and all—while describing acts of violence or cruelty. The smile didn't match the content. This mismatch, this weird emotional presentation, is what untrained observers latched onto and what guided their rapid judgments.

Hand Gestures and the Illusion of Transparency

Alongside the Duchenne smile pattern, ten Brinke found another behavioral marker: people high in psychopathic traits used significantly more hand gestures, which she calls "illustrators"—gestures that seem to emphasize or accompany speech. Random observers paid attention to these gestures and used them to guide their judgments. Of course, as ten Brinke notes, hand gestures alone are thin information. Extroverted people gesture more. Nervous people gesture more. Passionate communicators gesture more. But in combination with other markers, the pattern becomes worth noting.

The Dark Tetrad: Understanding the Spectrum

Ten Brinke's work distinguishes between four interrelated but distinct dark personality traits that often travel together: psychopathy, narcissism, Machiavellianism, and sadism. Lumping them all together misses crucial differences in how each manifests and how dangerous each personality type actually is.

Psychopathy involves a profound lack of empathy, callousness, and a tendency toward predatory behavior. Psychopaths don't experience emotions the way most people do. They can intellectually understand that others have inner lives, but they don't care. They are often superficially charming—a trait that makes them particularly effective manipulators—but underneath that charm is an absence of genuine connection.

Narcissism centers on an inflated sense of self-importance, a need for admiration, and a lack of empathy for others, but with a crucial difference: narcissists care deeply what others think of them. They require constant validation. There are two primary forms. Grandiose narcissists are ostentatious and dominant, openly seeking the spotlight. Vulnerable narcissists are hypersensitive to criticism, easily wounded, and prone to rage when their self-image is threatened. Both forms can be damaging in relationships and workplaces, but they respond differently to confrontation. Grandiose narcissists may become aggressive when challenged; vulnerable narcissists can completely unravel.

Machiavellianism is characterized by strategic manipulation, emotional detachment from the consequences of one's actions, and a willingness to use others as tools. Where psychopaths lack empathy entirely and narcissists need admiration, Machiavellians are cool calculators who see relationships as transactions.

Sadism involves the deliberate infliction of pain or humiliation on others for pleasure. It's rarer than the other three traits and often the most overtly harmful.

Where These Traits Come From

Understanding dark personality traits raises an obvious question: Are people born this way, or does environment create them? The research suggests both play a role. Ten Brinke notes that "research suggests that abuse, cold, uncaring parenting style, but also overvaluation of a child early in life may lead to more narcissistic views later." A child who is consistently told they are special, exempt from normal rules, and destined for greatness—without developing actual competence or compassion—can internalize a grandiose self-image that persists into adulthood. This is different from healthy confidence. It's a fragile certainty propped up by constant external validation.

Psychopathic traits appear to have stronger biological underpinnings. Some research suggests differences in brain structure and function, particularly in regions associated with emotional processing and impulse control. But biology is not destiny. How those predispositions develop depends on environment, opportunity, and the presence or absence of meaningful relationships.

Three Common Mistakes When Dealing with Dark Personalities

Ten Brinke identifies three mistakes people repeatedly make when entangled with individuals high in dark traits. First is the assumption that these individuals can be reasoned with in the way psychologically healthy people can. You cannot appeal to someone's conscience if they don't have one, or if their conscience is fundamentally different from yours. Second is underestimating how effective they are at manipulation. People with these traits have often spent a lifetime perfecting their craft. They read social dynamics with precision and exploit them methodically. Third is the belief that setting a boundary, having one difficult conversation, or establishing a rule will change their behavior. It won't. These individuals operate from a different value system. They don't experience shame or guilt in the way others do, so the social consequences that modify most people's behavior simply don't register.

Why Dark Personalities Sometimes Rise to Power

One of ten Brinke's most unsettling research findings concerns the relationship between dark personality traits and influence in positions of power. Her lab studied "the extent to which psychopathic personality traits could increase the amount of influence you have in government." The results suggest that some traits associated with psychopathy—confidence, lack of concern for others' feelings, willingness to make ruthless decisions—can be advantageous in climbing hierarchies, at least in the short term. This doesn't mean all powerful people are psychopathic. It means that the personality traits that can get someone to the top are sometimes the same ones that make them dangerous once they arrive.

The Cost of a Psychopathic Boss

The practical impact of these traits becomes visceral when they manifest in a workplace. A boss high in psychopathic traits is not simply demanding. They tend to bully their staff, use people instrumentally, and show no genuine concern for their wellbeing. Because they lack authentic emotional experience, they don't actually need respect or connection—they need power and control. They may be charming in public and brutal in private. They may manipulate situations so thoroughly that you question your own perception of reality. Over time, working for such a person is psychologically damaging. Employees lose trust in their own judgment and become hypervigilant, watching for the next betrayal or manipulation.

Can Dark Personalities Change?

The hope embedded in many self-help narratives is that anyone can change, that understanding and effort can transform even the most damaged person. Ten Brinke's research is less optimistic. "We found," she explains in discussing her lab's findings, that change in these personality patterns is unlikely, particularly in adulthood. Psychopathic traits, once formed, tend to be stable across time. Narcissism, especially vulnerable narcissism, can become more entrenched with age because the person develops increasingly sophisticated ways to protect their fragile ego. Machiavellianism may actually become more effective as someone gains experience and resources. Sadism, fortunately, is rare enough that it's less of a widespread concern, but when present, it shows no meaningful response to conventional intervention.

This is not a message of hopelessness, ten Brinke argues. Rather, it's a call for realism. The energy spent trying to change someone with these traits is energy you can't spend protecting yourself or building a healthy life elsewhere. Understanding that change is unlikely frees you to set boundaries, exit situations, and stop personalizing the harm these individuals cause.

Reading Dating Profiles and Digital Red Flags

In the modern era, many first encounters happen online. Can you spot dark personality traits in a dating profile or a few messages? Ten Brinke's research suggests limited but real signals. Language patterns matter. Someone who uses frequent self-aggrandizing statements, who talks about their superiority or special status, who subtly demeans others while describing themselves—these are narcissistic patterns. Profiles that show a pattern of short-term relationships or that describe exes uniformly in contemptuous terms are worth noting. Stories that position the person as perpetually wronged or as uniquely special also warrant caution. Of course, a single red flag in a profile doesn't confirm anything. Digital communication lacks the richness of in-person interaction. But patterns—repeated inconsistencies, love-bombing followed by sudden coldness, excessive focus on your flaws paired with grandiose self-presentation—these deserve attention.

Building Resistance to Manipulation

If you cannot change dark personalities and you cannot rely on traditional body-language reading, what can you do? Ten Brinke emphasizes learning how to recognize manipulation tactics and developing what she calls psychological resistance. This means understanding the common strategies: gaslighting, which involves making you question your own reality and memory; triangulation, which pits people against each other to create confusion and dependency; love-bombing, where affection and attention are used to lower your defenses before exploitation begins; and intermittent reinforcement, where unpredictable rewards and punishments create trauma-bonded attachment.

The antidote is information and distance. The more data you have about someone across different contexts and time, the clearer the picture becomes. Ten Brinke notes that "personality is something that exists across time and context. So, you're going to get better data the more data that you have across those different times and places." Trust patterns more than individual moments. Notice who this person is when no one important is watching. Pay attention to how they treat people who can't do anything for them. If the story they tell about their exes, their colleagues, their family members is uniformly contemptuous, that's data. If they present differently to different audiences—charming with authority figures, cruel to subordinates—that's data too.

The Broader Picture: Why This Matters

Ten Brinke's motivation in conducting this research extends beyond academic curiosity. "I want to make people less cynical about human nature," she says, acknowledging the paradox: she studies deception and dark traits precisely so people can understand these phenomena and respond more effectively. Understanding that some people operate from fundamentally different value systems—that they aren't simply angrier or more hurt versions of healthy people—is oddly liberating. It means the problem is not that you're too naive or too trusting. It means you were dealing with someone whose operating system is genuinely different. Once you understand the mechanics of that difference, you can protect yourself accordingly.

Where to go from here

If you recognize dark personality traits in someone close to you, the first step is distinguishing between discomfort and actual danger. Not everyone who is selfish or manipulative at times is high in dark traits. Most people show situational selfishness or occasional dishonesty. What you're looking for is a pattern: consistent lack of empathy, strategic manipulation across multiple relationships, charm that doesn't extend to vulnerability, and an inability or unwillingness to take accountability. If the pattern is clear, prioritize your own safety and wellbeing. This may mean reducing contact, setting firm boundaries, or leaving the relationship entirely. If you're in a workplace situation, document patterns, seek support from trusted colleagues, and consider whether the cost to your mental health justifies staying. Finally, invest in understanding your own vulnerability to manipulation. People with dark traits are effective precisely because they understand human psychology. Learning about persuasion, about your own emotional triggers, and about how manipulation actually works is the best insurance against becoming a victim.

Transcript

[0:00] How long does it take someone to spot a

[0:02] psychopath?

[0:03] >> About 5 seconds. So, most people think a

[0:05] psychopath looks dangerous. [music] They

[0:07] picture the villain in a movie, but

[0:09] that's not how it works in real life.

[0:11] We've done some research in my lab and

[0:12] we found there are certainly some things

[0:14] that you can look for.

[0:15] >> Have they ever done that with lying

[0:16] [music] to figure out if people can spot

[0:18] liars

[0:18] >> thousands of times? If you ask people

[0:20] what's the number one cue that someone

[0:22] is lying to you, they will say they

[0:24] can't look you in the eye. But there's

[0:26] no research to suggest that that is

[0:28] true. However, there's an essential tool

[0:30] for detecting lies which is

[0:32] >> oh

[0:33] >> I know as I study dark personality

[0:35] [music]

[0:35] traits and I found that there's four

[0:37] different elements which are

[0:38] psychopathy, machavelianism, narcissism

[0:40] and sadism. And what we found is that

[0:43] people with higher levels of these

[0:44] traits engaged in duchen smiles which is

[0:47] the activation around the eyes and they

[0:49] also used a lot of hand gestures.

[0:51] >> Where does this come from? Well,

[0:52] research suggests that abuse, cold,

[0:54] uncaring parenting style, but also

[0:57] overvaluation of a child early in life

[1:00] may lead to more narcissistic views

[1:02] later.

[1:02] >> Is there any other fascinating questions

[1:04] you've pursued in your lab?

[1:05] >> Yes, we studied the extent to which

[1:07] [music] psychopathic personality traits

[1:09] could increase the amount of influence

[1:11] you have in government. [music] And

[1:12] also, there are three common mistakes

[1:14] people make when dealing with dark

[1:16] personalities. We'll get into this more

[1:17] later. And I'm wondering if you can spot

[1:19] any of these dark personality traits

[1:20] just by looking at dating profiles.

[1:22] >> All right. So, this is Ryan. This feels

[1:25] like a red flag. And then there's Haley.

[1:27] That would be associated with

[1:28] psychopathy. Okay. David is a brain

[1:32] surgeon. Very impressive. [music] But

[1:33] I'm seeing narcissism.

[1:35] >> So, I guess this begs the question that

[1:37] if someone has those traits you've

[1:38] described, can they be cured?

[1:40] >> So, in my lab, what we found is that

[1:47] This is super interesting to me. My team

[1:49] gave me this report to show me how many

[1:50] of you that watch the show subscribe.

[1:52] And some of you have told us according

[1:53] to this that you are unsubscribed from

[1:55] the channel randomly. So favor to ask

[1:57] all of you. Please could you check right

[1:59] now if you've hit the subscribe button.

[2:00] If you are a regular view of the show

[2:02] and you like what we do here, we're

[2:03] approaching quite a significant landmark

[2:05] on this show in terms of a subscriber

[2:07] number. So, if there was one simple free

[2:09] thing that you could do to help us, my

[2:11] team, everyone here, to keep this show

[2:13] free, to keep it improving year over

[2:15] year and week over week, it is just to

[2:17] hit that subscribe button and to double

[2:18] check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll

[2:19] ever ask of you. Do we have a deal? If

[2:22] you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do.

[2:23] I'll make sure every single week, every

[2:25] single month, we fight harder and harder

[2:27] and harder and harder to bring you the

[2:28] guests and conversations that you want

[2:29] to hear. I've stayed true to that

[2:31] promise since the very beginning of the

[2:32] D of Sio, and I will not let you down.

[2:35] Please help us. Really appreciate it.

[2:36] Let's get on with the show. [music]

[2:42] Professor Leanne Tenbrink,

[2:45] at the very heart of your motivations,

[2:47] why is it you do what you do? I want to

[2:51] make people less cynical about human

[2:53] nature, which I think might seem kind of

[2:55] paradoxical given what I study because I

[2:58] study deception and dominance and

[3:00] so-called dark personality traits. But I

[3:04] think when you understand those topics

[3:07] and also that there's something you can

[3:09] do about it to like make these

[3:11] interactions better, it's incredibly

[3:14] powerful and can give us a more accurate

[3:17] view of the world.

[3:18] >> And why are the population at large so

[3:21] interested in this these subjects? Cuz

[3:23] they are they're fascinated by it. But

[3:25] what is underneath all of the sort of

[3:26] fascination and the curiosity? What is

[3:28] what are they trying to figure out when

[3:30] people are interested in psychop

[3:31] psychopathy?

[3:32] >> Mhm. You know, I think one of the

[3:34] reasons why we are so interested in

[3:37] psychopathy is because it's quite

[3:38] foreign to us. So, most of us move

[3:41] through life caring about other people,

[3:43] having compassion for other people,

[3:45] telling a few lies here and there, but

[3:47] by and large being very truthful and

[3:49] honest and kind of playing by the rules.

[3:51] And that's like the opposite of

[3:53] psychopathy. And so I think when you are

[3:56] faced with this personality that is

[3:59] quite the opposite of your whole

[4:01] experience of being alive, you're like

[4:04] what's going on? And I want to

[4:06] understand that. I think there's also an

[4:07] element uh there actually is some

[4:10] research on like true crime specifically

[4:12] and why people are interested in true

[4:13] crime. It tends to be a largely uh

[4:16] female audience and some of the

[4:18] motivations that people report is like

[4:20] wanting to understand and wanting to

[4:23] avoid you know becoming victim of these

[4:26] people.

[4:26] >> Is it possible to spot someone who is a

[4:29] psychopath?

[4:31] >> Yes.

[4:32] >> How long according to the research does

[4:35] it take someone to spot a psychopath?

[4:37] >> Okay. You can get a kernel of truth

[4:40] about someone's personality, the extent

[4:42] to which they're psychopathic in about 5

[4:44] seconds.

[4:45] >> Yeah. Explain the research to me.

[4:46] >> Okay. So, this is research by Scott

[4:49] Lillenfeld and his colleagues. And

[4:52] basically what they did is they showed

[4:54] people

[4:56] 5-second, 10-second, and 20 second clips

[4:59] of these interviews where criminal

[5:02] offenders were being interviewed by a

[5:04] psychologist and rated on their

[5:06] psychopathic personality traits. And

[5:08] then you had random psychology student

[5:10] volunteer for research watching 5

[5:13] seconds of that interaction and making a

[5:17] rating of like you know how callous do

[5:19] they seem, how manipulative do they

[5:21] seem? And they found that there is

[5:23] actually a pretty reasonable correlation

[5:26] between the ratings of these like you

[5:29] know naive folks who watch 5 seconds and

[5:32] the trained clinical psychologists who

[5:34] did hours long interviews and gathered

[5:36] collateral information. And so we

[5:40] partnered with Scott and we uh got these

[5:43] videos and we coded the like verbal and

[5:45] non-verbal behavior like are these

[5:47] people behaving differently is and what

[5:49] are people paying attention to? And what

[5:52] we found is that people with higher

[5:53] levels of these traits engaged in these

[5:56] uh what we call duchen smiles. They're

[5:59] um a genuine looking smile but they

[6:03] Yeah, that's the one. Okay. So what

[6:06] distinguishes these two kinds of smiles

[6:08] is the activation around the eyes and

[6:10] it's the creation of like crows feet. So

[6:13] you kind of get you know lines in the

[6:15] corner.

[6:15] >> So a genuine person will have crows feet

[6:17] when they smile. Theoretically

[6:19] >> theoretically

[6:20] >> again they can botox and all kinds of

[6:21] things getting in the way of this but

[6:23] >> yeah.

[6:23] >> Okay. So it's in the eyes.

[6:25] >> Yes. It's totally in the eyes. Whereas a

[6:27] nondouch smile, you know, you have the

[6:30] same kind of upturned lips and maybe

[6:32] you're showing your teeth, you get a big

[6:33] grin, but no activation around the eyes.

[6:36] So, you don't get those crows feet.

[6:37] People who were high in these

[6:39] psychopathic personality traits, they

[6:40] were showing these kinds of like, you

[6:42] know, very happy looking smiles as they

[6:46] were saying really hostile things. So,

[6:48] they were using like happy expressions,

[6:51] hostile language at the same time. So

[6:54] you get this kind of like weird

[6:55] emotional presentation. Um they also

[6:58] used a lot of hand gestures. We called

[7:00] them illustrators. Those seem to be

[7:02] things that just, you know, random

[7:04] observers paid attention to and used to

[7:06] help guide their judgments, which of

[7:08] course is like such little information

[7:10] to go on, but it does suggest that, you

[7:12] know, you can get a sense of someone

[7:14] relatively quickly. But again,

[7:17] personality is something that exists

[7:19] across time and context. So, you're

[7:20] going to get better data the more data

[7:22] that you have across those different

[7:25] times and places.

[7:26] >> I've got two more facial expressions

[7:28] here.

[7:28] >> Mhm. So, this is sadness. So, some of

[7:32] the research that I have done has

[7:33] actually looked at people who've gone on

[7:35] TV and asked for help trying to find

[7:37] their missing loved one. And in some

[7:40] proportion of those cases, they were

[7:42] actually guilty of killing that person.

[7:44] [gasps]

[7:45] So they are like falsely pleading for

[7:47] help for someone they know is never

[7:50] coming back. And

[7:51] >> isn't this your wasn't this your PhD?

[7:52] >> This is my PhD. Yeah.

[7:54] >> What what was your PhD in

[7:55] >> in psychology? Uh but I was in a more

[7:58] like forensic context at that time. So I

[8:00] was uh studying behavioral cues to

[8:03] emotional highstakes deception.

[8:06] >> I trying to spot someone who was say in

[8:09] the media saying I can't find my wife

[8:11] please help me. a thousand%.

[8:13] >> But they had killed their own wife.

[8:15] >> Yes. Yeah. So I was comparing a bunch of

[8:17] those cases to a bunch of cases where

[8:20] people genuinely had no idea where their

[8:23] missing loved one had gone and they

[8:24] were, you know, desperately pleading to

[8:27] have them home. And this is one of the

[8:30] differences that we saw in that set of

[8:33] videos where like maybe you can try to

[8:35] do this with me, Stephen. Are you up for

[8:36] it?

[8:37] >> I'm up for it. [laughter] I'm always up

[8:38] for everything.

[8:39] >> Okay. So in genuine sadness you get the

[8:42] like downturn lip corners p. Okay. So

[8:44] you did that pretty easily.

[8:46] >> What tends to be more difficult is this

[8:48] combination in the eyebrows. So you're

[8:50] just your inner eyebrows comes upward

[8:53] and together.

[8:55] >> Oh, you're pretty good. Nicely done.

[8:58] >> It was [laughter] hard.

[8:59] >> So what we saw in the people who were

[9:02] lying was more like surprise. So, like

[9:04] they were able to kind of pull the lip

[9:06] corners down, but instead of like the

[9:09] inner eyebrows going upward and

[9:11] together, the whole inner and outer

[9:13] eyebrows would go up, but not together.

[9:15] So, it's kind of like,

[9:17] >> and you could predictably tell from

[9:19] footage if someone had done it or not.

[9:22] Like, was there correlation?

[9:23] >> Yeah. So, we were able to use four

[9:26] different cues. So too verbal and too

[9:29] non-verbal to predict with about 90%

[9:32] accuracy who was lying and who was

[9:33] telling the truth. Caveat to that. We

[9:37] tried to replicate that more recently

[9:39] and we found much more modest effects.

[9:42] But we did find consistencies especially

[9:44] with the verbal stuff and and there it

[9:47] was the number of words that people used

[9:50] as well as tentative words. So liars

[9:53] would tend to say things like if you see

[9:56] this come home or call or whatever. It

[9:58] was kind of like a little vague about

[10:02] what this person should do if they saw

[10:04] it. Saying things like it wasn't like an

[10:06] argument per se that we were having. So

[10:09] they kind of left a lot of like gray

[10:11] area in the things that they were

[10:12] saying. Whereas the truthful people were

[10:14] like when you see this call me.

[10:16] >> They were more sort of high conviction

[10:17] and precise.

[10:18] >> Yes. Exactly. Yeah. H I think down there

[10:21] we have some cards that say uh three

[10:23] signs someone is lying.

[10:24] >> So one cue to deception is sparse or

[10:29] ambiguous information. So the most

[10:32] consistent effect we have that

[10:34] differentiates people who are telling

[10:36] the truth from people who are lying is

[10:38] the amount of detail that they give. So

[10:41] people who are lying tend to give fewer

[10:44] details.

[10:45] >> Interesting. I thought it was the

[10:47] opposite.

[10:48] Yeah, I hear this a lot [laughter] where

[10:51] people are like, "No, but liars will

[10:52] like, you know, natter on and on and

[10:54] on." That's not what we find in the

[10:56] research whatsoever. Especially

[10:59] especially when people don't have time

[11:01] to prepare.

[11:03] So, whenever people have time to

[11:05] prepare, they can start to look pretty

[11:07] much like a truth teller on the amount

[11:09] of information they have. But if you get

[11:12] someone on the spot, the truth teller

[11:15] just has to like say remember what

[11:17] happened and like spit it out and tell

[11:19] you, right? And you can even ask for

[11:20] more information like tell me more about

[11:22] that and they can come up with more

[11:23] information about that because they were

[11:25] there, right? The person who is lying

[11:27] has a much harder task. We call this

[11:30] they have increased cognitive load which

[11:32] means that like they need to come up

[11:35] with details on the spot. They need to

[11:39] not contradict themselves. They need to

[11:41] make sure they remember it for the next

[11:43] time they need to tell this lie. They

[11:45] also need to try to imagine like what do

[11:47] you know already

[11:49] >> and how do I not contradict or

[11:52] essentially step in it right whenever

[11:54] I'm trying to explain what actually

[11:56] didn't happen.

[11:57] >> They must have higher like blood

[11:58] pressure anyway just from knowing that

[12:00] they're not telling the truth. And that

[12:02] must make it your cortisol spike to know

[12:03] that you're like

[12:05] >> Yeah. We actually we've done some

[12:06] research in my lab uh to show that

[12:08] people who are lying tend to have an

[12:10] increased cortisol reactivity relative

[12:12] to people who are telling the truth.

[12:14] Yeah. You know, on this one, the reason

[12:16] why the reason why I was surprised to

[12:17] hear it is because when I I w I'm a big

[12:19] true crime fan, like obsessed, and uh I

[12:21] often watch the interrogation videos,

[12:24] >> and I I think I thought I heard before

[12:25] that when they're interviewing someone

[12:27] who is guilty, they will give lots of

[12:29] like irrelevant detail on other parts of

[12:32] it.

[12:32] >> I was watching the Jesse Small interview

[12:35] he did on TV. Again, he had time to

[12:38] prepare, so maybe that's the caveat.

[12:40] >> And he really described a bunch of

[12:41] pointless stuff. He like des he was like

[12:43] talking to the journalist. He was like,

[12:44] "Uh, you know," and then I landed and I

[12:46] called my manager who was in Australia

[12:47] because my manager is on tour with

[12:49] someone else and I

[12:51] >> and then even when he talked about going

[12:52] to Subway and getting the Subway rap, he

[12:54] he mentioned that it was like a tuna

[12:56] rap.

[12:57] >> So like the the details he was sure on

[12:59] and that were probably true, he seemed

[13:01] to really expand out

[13:02] >> and then when it gets into the other

[13:04] stuff, which is where the the bulk of

[13:05] the lies took place allegedly, it was

[13:07] quite vague.

[13:08] >> Yeah. Yeah. So we call that embedded

[13:11] lies, right? So like he's giving lots of

[13:13] detail where it's truthful.

[13:14] >> Yeah.

[13:15] >> And then almost no detail where it's a

[13:18] lie, right? And then lots of detail

[13:20] where it's truthful. So you can you can

[13:22] also kind of like compare someone's like

[13:24] baseline like do they do they tend to

[13:27] give lots of detail? Do they tend to be

[13:29] sparse on information? You can look for

[13:30] kind of deviations. And so if you notice

[13:33] that like someone tells you a really

[13:36] long story, there's tons of detail about

[13:38] all these other things and then in this

[13:40] part of the story there's like very

[13:42] little information, very sparse or

[13:44] ambiguous information, right? That can

[13:47] be a red flag. And I think what's

[13:49] >> important to remember is that there is

[13:51] no Pinocchio's nose. There's no like one

[13:53] cue. And so what you're looking for is

[13:56] just like these um subtle cues that are

[14:01] like red flags and encourage you to

[14:02] follow up, ask more questions, dig in to

[14:05] that topic a little bit further.

[14:07] >> You know, in the same way they did the

[14:08] research to figure out if members of the

[14:10] public could just on the surface tell if

[14:12] someone was a psychopath in 5, 10 or 20

[14:14] seconds.

[14:15] >> Have they ever done that with lying to

[14:17] figure out if people can spot lies?

[14:19] >> Literally thousands of times. [laughter]

[14:21] >> Really?

[14:22] >> Yeah. So, in my lab, we've actually had

[14:25] them steal a $100 bill from a room and

[14:30] then we had someone come in and

[14:32] essentially interrogate them and

[14:34] everyone had to deny it, right? So, the

[14:36] people who took it were lying and the

[14:38] people who did not take it were telling

[14:40] the truth and we put 100 bucks on the

[14:42] line, right? So, like if you're able to

[14:44] convince this person that you didn't

[14:47] take it when you actually did, you can

[14:48] keep that at Benjamin. And then we

[14:50] showed these videos to other people,

[14:51] right? People are not very good

[14:53] [laughter]

[14:53] at detecting these these lies or really

[14:56] any kind of lies. On average, people

[14:59] perform at about 54% accuracy. Like if I

[15:02] gave you 12 videos, six are liars, six

[15:05] are truth tellers,

[15:07] you'll get like six or seven, right?

[15:09] >> What if someone is trained? Do the do

[15:12] the stats increase?

[15:14] >> So they can increase a little bit. Yes.

[15:17] What is better actually is learning how

[15:19] to ask better questions.

[15:20] >> Oh, really? Yeah. So, instead of just

[15:24] being like, "Here's a video of someone

[15:25] lying or telling the truth." Like,

[15:27] that's all you get and just like, "Look

[15:29] at that and tell me if they're lying or

[15:31] telling the truth." Good lie detectors

[15:33] ask for more information. Or they ask

[15:37] unanticipated questions uh where people

[15:40] haven't prepared for them. And then

[15:42] those cues of deception, that like

[15:44] sparse information, that like sense that

[15:46] they're thinking really hard is really

[15:49] going to kind of go off the charts. And

[15:51] so learning how to ask good questions is

[15:54] actually a really kind of essential tool

[15:56] for detecting lies.

[15:59] >> I mean, we're going to have to go into

[16:00] that rabbit hole. Um, [laughter]

[16:02] I got to be careful here because people

[16:03] are going to take this out of context.

[16:05] Say that I suspect my my partner is

[16:07] cheating on me.

[16:08] >> Uhhuh.

[16:09] >> And I sit them down and I go, "Babe,

[16:11] listen. are you cheating on me? And they

[16:12] go, "No, absolutely not." What would be

[16:14] a good question to ask to ascertain if

[16:17] they are actually cheating on me?

[16:19] >> So, I think where where you first made a

[16:22] mistake is you asked a closedended

[16:24] question. You're like, "Are

[16:25] [clears throat] you cheating on me?"

[16:27] >> No.

[16:28] >> You didn't even give them an opportunity

[16:29] to like have to come up with something

[16:31] more difficult, right?

[16:33] >> If you were like, "Okay, well, I think

[16:36] last Friday night you said you had to

[16:37] work late, but I don't really believe

[16:39] that. I think you were out with someone

[16:40] else. You would say, "Tell me about, you

[16:43] know, work on Friday night." And so then

[16:46] you're you're asking an open-ended

[16:48] question.

[16:50] >> Let's role play.

[16:50] >> Okay.

[16:51] >> Okay. You're the [clears throat] one

[16:52] that suspects I'm cheating.

[16:53] >> Okay.

[16:53] >> And last Friday night, I was up to

[16:55] something. So, [laughter] that's the

[16:57] context. Let's Let's do this.

[16:58] >> Okay. I know you had to work late

[17:00] [sighs and gasps] on Friday night. Uh

[17:02] what were you working on?

[17:03] >> Yeah, big big investment deal that we're

[17:05] working on with uh couple of uh the

[17:07] colleagues. We had to get a deck

[17:08] together. So, I was Yeah, I stayed till

[17:10] what, 3:00 a.m. in the morning or

[17:11] something crazy like that and I ended up

[17:13] falling asleep on my desk and [gasps]

[17:15] Yeah, that's a long [sighs] one. Anyway,

[17:16] what's for what are we doing today?

[17:17] What's for dinner?

[17:20] [laughter]

[17:22] >> Okay, red flags flying up. So, I would

[17:26] ask more questions. I would be like,

[17:27] "Oh, like what what client were you

[17:29] working on this for? What's the what's

[17:31] the deck about?"

[17:32] >> Yeah, it's a we're doing an investment

[17:34] deal with um with Google. So, it's goo

[17:36] Google's Yeah, it's Google. Yeah,

[17:38] >> you I could ask you like, okay, tell me

[17:40] about um like what was in the deck,

[17:42] right? And you give me a little bit kind

[17:44] of sketchy information. A great question

[17:47] to have in your back pocket is just tell

[17:49] me more about that. Like you don't even

[17:50] have to like try very hard to figure out

[17:53] like where am I going to stump him,

[17:54] right?

[17:55] >> If you just ask, "Tell me more about

[17:57] that."

[17:59] >> At some point, the liar is going to have

[18:02] a lot more trouble coming up with

[18:04] additional details than the truth

[18:06] teller. who's the truth teller is going

[18:07] to be like oh well this is what the

[18:09] project was about like it was actually

[18:11] super annoying because I couldn't get

[18:13] the font on the you know on the slide

[18:15] deck to stay on the whatever like you as

[18:18] a trutht teller you were there and you

[18:20] know all those annoying little things

[18:22] that maybe you didn't include in the you

[18:24] know first version of the story but if

[18:26] you someone asks you for more detail you

[18:28] could go into more detail whereas the

[18:30] person who's lying who's making this up

[18:32] that's much more difficult for them to

[18:34] do because that didn't actually happen.

[18:36] Mhm. So, they're [clears throat] going

[18:36] to be somewhat vague.

[18:38] >> Yes. Vague. And the details are going to

[18:41] be really difficult to verify. So, if

[18:44] they do give you some details, it might

[18:46] be like the things that you you don't

[18:49] know the co-workers that you were

[18:51] working with, right? Oh, it's the new

[18:53] guy at work, like uh you don't know him.

[18:55] So, in general, liars tend to give fewer

[18:59] verifiable details. And there's this

[19:01] actually really fascinating study that

[19:03] you know sometimes we're like we're

[19:05] trying to like dissect right someone's

[19:08] behavior. We're trying we're paying

[19:11] attention their words. We're paying

[19:12] attention like oh are they fidgeting or

[19:14] something which is actually not a good

[19:15] cue to deception. We're looking at their

[19:17] eye contact. Also not a good deception.

[19:20] So, and we are trying to like create

[19:21] this crazy algorithm in our head like

[19:24] adding up all of these different

[19:25] behaviors to try to determine whether I

[19:27] think you're lying or telling the truth.

[19:30] Actually, research suggests that if you

[19:32] just ask how verifiable was that

[19:34] statement, that's a better strategy for

[19:37] trying to accurately detect lies than

[19:40] trying to use all of these other cues

[19:42] that actually don't work.

[19:44] >> I.e., If you ask yourself,

[19:46] >> yes,

[19:47] >> how verifiable is the excuse this person

[19:49] I think his line gave me?

[19:51] >> Yes. Exactly.

[19:52] >> Interesting.

[19:52] >> I think the broader finding is just that

[19:54] it is better to focus on one cue that

[19:58] works than to try to put together all of

[20:01] these like little cues that mostly don't

[20:03] work at all.

[20:05] >> Okay.

[20:05] >> Yeah.

[20:06] >> And the third one there,

[20:07] >> the third one, you know, we've kind of

[20:08] touched on, but it's just visible

[20:10] cognitive effort. So all of this stuff,

[20:12] you know, the details that people need

[20:14] to come up with is really hard to do,

[20:17] right? And they might be speaking really

[20:20] slowly. They might be using lots of ums

[20:23] and a's and they might be kind of like

[20:25] furrowing their brow trying to figure

[20:27] things out. Again, it's important to

[20:30] remember that like you could pause for a

[20:33] million different reasons that are not

[20:36] deception related, right? You could just

[20:38] be trying to remember something. Uh, you

[20:40] could be furrowing your brow because, I

[20:42] don't know, your forehead's itchy,

[20:43] whatever. So, none of these are

[20:45] Pinocchio's nose, but they are reliably

[20:48] associated with deception.

[20:50] >> What about body language? People always

[20:51] talk about body language.

[20:53] >> Mhm. People put a lot of stock into body

[20:55] language, particularly into like gaze

[20:57] aversion. So, if you go around the world

[20:59] and you ask people what's the number one

[21:02] cue that someone is lying to you, they

[21:05] will say sketchy eye contact. And

[21:08] there's no research to suggest that that

[21:10] is true. And if you think about it for

[21:12] like a hot second, it makes so much

[21:15] sense, right? Because I sometimes tell a

[21:18] lie. You sometimes tell a lie. We all

[21:21] know the stereotype that liars can't

[21:23] look you in the eye. So if I want you to

[21:24] believe me, I'm going to make sure I

[21:27] control my eye contact, right?

[21:29] >> Um, and that's something that's that's

[21:31] well under our control. And there's

[21:33] neurody divergence and things like that

[21:34] which means that some people who who

[21:36] have sort of certain neurodyiversities

[21:39] struggle with eye contact but it doesn't

[21:41] necessarily mean that they're lying.

[21:43] >> Exactly. So there's some emerging

[21:44] research to suggest that people who are

[21:47] on the autism spectrum are perceived as

[21:50] lying more uh when they're actually

[21:53] telling the truth. then that's because

[21:54] of this eye contact thing which people

[21:56] are using as a cue to deception but in

[21:59] fact is unrelated to deception. I mean

[22:02] there's also like cultural differences

[22:04] right in some cultures um it's more

[22:06] respectful like not to look at you in

[22:08] the eye and so that can also lead to

[22:12] kind of errors in our judgment

[22:13] >> and there's this sort of dark

[22:15] personality trait um thing I hear a lot

[22:20] is a triad

[22:22] >> it refers to it was a triad now we got a

[22:24] >> tetraad okay so is that what this is

[22:26] >> yes

[22:27] >> okay so if you want to reveal what each

[22:29] of those is one at a time

[22:30] >> psychopathy for example What is

[22:32] psychopathy?

[22:33] >> Psychopathy is a constellation that is a

[22:36] set of personality traits. So, it's not

[22:38] just one thing having kind of a

[22:40] superficial charm. They're quite

[22:42] manipulative and they tend to be pretty

[22:44] grandiose. So, they've got a pretty

[22:46] inflated view of themselves. There's

[22:48] also emotional components. So, they tend

[22:51] to have pretty shallow emotional

[22:53] experiences.

[22:55] A lack of remorse uh and guilt for

[22:58] harming other people. and they tend not

[23:01] to take responsibility for their own

[23:03] actions.

[23:04] In addition, they tend to be uh pretty

[23:07] impulsive. So, they are kind of living

[23:10] life by the seat of their pants and

[23:12] they're not really, you know, planning

[23:14] far out into the future. And so, they

[23:17] might, you know, kind of mooch off of a

[23:19] family members or a romantic partner.

[23:21] And then lastly, they tend to break a

[23:23] lot of rules. So this might be just like

[23:25] workplace rules or social norms, but

[23:28] psychopathy has largely been studied in

[23:31] criminal populations. So this could also

[23:33] be laws. The the other three of the

[23:37] so-called dark tetrad share some

[23:40] elements but also has some like unique

[23:42] flavors. Um so the next one we've got

[23:44] here is Machavevelianism

[23:47] and that is you know named after Nicolo

[23:50] Machaveli who wrote um the prince which

[23:53] is a kind of a how-to manual to like

[23:55] gain and wield power effectively.

[23:58] >> So as a personality trait they tend to

[24:00] be pretty cynical about other people.

[24:03] They tell a lot of lies and they try to

[24:06] like manipulate people, but it's more

[24:08] like three-dimensional chess, you know,

[24:10] like they might learn a little tidbit

[24:12] about you, Stephen. They'll be like,

[24:13] "You know what? I could use that against

[24:15] him later. I'm just going to like put

[24:17] that in my back pocket." And, you know,

[24:19] when I need to manipulate or like a

[24:21] blackmail you in the future, right?

[24:23] They'll have that available to them. So,

[24:26] this is they're very interested in

[24:27] power, which of course is where the name

[24:30] comes from. Next one is narcissism. You

[24:32] know, that's one that people know pretty

[24:34] well, right? So, these are people who

[24:36] tend to be very entitled and they're

[24:38] very willing to exploit other people in

[24:40] order to get what they think they

[24:42] deserve, right? So, it's like very

[24:44] relentless kind of self focus.

[24:48] >> This word has been used quite a lot in

[24:49] culture.

[24:50] >> Uhhuh.

[24:51] >> It's thrown around

[24:53] all the time,

[24:53] >> constantly. Yes.

[24:54] >> What's your view of that?

[24:56] >> I mean, narcissism, like all of these

[24:58] traits, exist on a continuum.

[25:00] >> Okay. [clears throat]

[25:01] >> Okay. So you or anyone else myself could

[25:04] take a measure, a self-report measure of

[25:06] the extent to which I have these traits,

[25:09] right? And you can land anywhere from

[25:10] very low to very high. Now some of these

[25:14] traits, narcissism being one of them,

[25:17] actually has a there's a personality

[25:19] disorder diagnosis at the incredibly

[25:21] high end, right? So this appears in the

[25:25] diagnostic and statistical manual which

[25:28] is basically like a list of different

[25:30] mental disorders. You could go to a

[25:33] psychologist or psychiatrist. They could

[25:35] assess you and diagnose you if you have

[25:37] like extreme levels of narcissism. But

[25:41] like people land everywhere, right? So I

[25:45] think part of the problem is that people

[25:47] say, "Oh, she's a narcissist, right?

[25:51] He's a narcissist." Are they a

[25:53] narcissist or a psychopath? And they

[25:56] make this kind of very binary

[25:58] distinction there, right? I guess I have

[26:02] qualms with those words for a couple of

[26:04] different reasons. You know, these exist

[26:07] on a continuum. There's no clear like

[26:10] >> moment where

[26:11] >> moment where it becomes you are a

[26:13] narcissist versus not a narcissist. And

[26:16] so, as with all of these other traits,

[26:18] it's a bit of a mouthful, but I think

[26:20] it's more accurate to say they they have

[26:22] relatively high levels of narcissism or

[26:26] psychopathy or or whatever the case is.

[26:28] >> And you said that there's two main types

[26:30] of narcissist.

[26:32] >> Yeah. So, increasingly, uh, personality

[26:34] psychologists are identifying this kind

[26:36] of vulnerable type and, uh, a grandiose

[26:39] type. So, Grandios is like one that we

[26:41] all know well where it's like they've

[26:43] got this ego in it's huge. It like

[26:46] cannot be popped, right? It's like

[26:48] [laughter] they get this negative

[26:49] feedback and it's like nothing gets

[26:51] through to them and they always think

[26:53] they should be the one in charge, etc.

[26:55] For those individuals, they tend to get

[26:58] very angry uh with a particular kind of

[27:01] threat to their ego and that is like a

[27:04] failure to achieve. Like they wanted

[27:06] this uh promotion at work, they didn't

[27:08] get it. Mhm. [clears throat]

[27:09] >> Vulnerable individuals actually have

[27:12] kind of um a very fragile ego.

[27:16] >> Interesting.

[27:18] >> So it can be popped very easily

[27:22] essentially. So if they get negative

[27:24] feedback from people maybe they get like

[27:27] socially rejected. That's when they

[27:30] become quite angry. That's more of a

[27:32] trigger for them. And is it you using

[27:34] the word angry as the outcome of both

[27:36] those types of narcissists,

[27:38] >> but I guess one would assume that maybe

[27:41] just from the wording that a vulnerable

[27:42] narcissist would get more upset or more

[27:46] self-critical or something like that. Uh

[27:48] the research at least was focused on on

[27:50] anger in response to these kinds of

[27:52] threats to their ego, but certainly

[27:55] emotional, you know, like combative, you

[27:58] know, this is when you're going to get

[27:59] like a really negative response. Like

[28:02] someone who uh is relatively low on

[28:05] narcissism of both kinds, you know,

[28:07] could take that kind of feedback that

[28:09] like, no, I don't think a second date is

[28:11] really for us, right? like someone with

[28:13] vulnerable narcissism is going to

[28:16] respond badly.

[28:17] >> Do you know why I asked the question?

[28:19] It's just a friend of mine because of a

[28:20] conversation I was having the other day

[28:21] where we were interviewing someone

[28:24] >> and during the interview process they

[28:27] were very quick to say to claim credit

[28:31] for like all of the things the company

[28:33] they worked at had done.

[28:34] >> And they were also very quick to say

[28:36] that they were like good at everything.

[28:38] Even as I walked out the room with them

[28:39] and I said, "Oh, can you can I message

[28:41] you on this particular app?" They said,

[28:42] "I'm amazing at that app." Again, I'm an

[28:44] anonymizing, so a lot of this is

[28:46] slightly changed. And I walked out of

[28:48] the room weirdly, having interviewed

[28:49] thousands and thousands of people over

[28:50] the years,

[28:52] >> thinking to myself, they were so lovely,

[28:54] but it felt to me like it was more

[28:55] coming from a place of insecurity.

[28:57] >> Mhm.

[28:58] >> And when you look at their story, it's a

[28:59] story of someone who has been

[29:00] continually

[29:02] counted out, overlooked for

[29:03] opportunities, and almost has this a bit

[29:05] of a chip on their shoulder to try and

[29:07] be

[29:09] >> prove themselves.

[29:11] >> Mhm. Now, when I another person I think

[29:13] would look at that same pattern of

[29:14] behavior and say, "Oh, that that

[29:15] person's a narcissist." So, when I heard

[29:17] vulnerable narcissist versus the sort of

[29:19] grandiose one, I was wondering if is at

[29:21] all linked to what I'm saying. Like,

[29:23] >> for vulnerable narcissism, the reason

[29:25] that they would respond so poorly to

[29:27] this kind of rejection is that they need

[29:29] kind of constant admiration and positive

[29:32] feedback from other people to keep their

[29:34] ego like going. I I called this person's

[29:38] former employer to get a reference and

[29:41] they said about him

[29:43] >> that

[29:44] one of the quotes was he always needs a

[29:46] gold star.

[29:47] >> What's the difference between deep

[29:48] insecurity and narcissism in this

[29:50] regard?

[29:50] >> The deep insecurity um it would need to

[29:53] be coupled with these like entitlement

[29:56] like there's still a grandio sense of

[29:58] self. It's just that it is quite

[30:00] fragile. So they're like they they think

[30:03] they're really good and they're willing

[30:04] to exploit other people to get what they

[30:06] think they deserve and they may feel

[30:08] like they've been victimized, right? And

[30:10] that's why they haven't gotten all of

[30:12] the accolades that they think they

[30:14] deserve. Now I think kind of regardless

[30:17] of where this person, you know, sits on

[30:21] this continuum, you know, they might

[30:23] still have like incredible skills. They

[30:25] might have the abilities that you're

[30:27] looking for. And so, is this something

[30:30] you can manage or is this going to

[30:33] create problems?

[30:34] >> I didn't get any sense that they were

[30:35] entitled or that they would use other

[30:38] people to their advantage. I I got the

[30:40] impression that people would generally

[30:41] like them

[30:42] >> and that they weren't entitled at all,

[30:44] but they still had these sort of sort of

[30:45] self-promotional traits. And I think in

[30:47] society, the minute someone's like

[30:48] overly self-promotional, we run to the

[30:50] sort of narcissist category versus it

[30:53] could be other things, I'm presuming.

[30:55] >> Yes. I mean, I think in that situation,

[30:57] right, you need to be quite mindful of

[30:58] the situation as well, right? So, like

[31:00] our behavior is kind of a combination of

[31:03] both our personality and the situation

[31:05] that we're in. And so, if you're at a

[31:08] job interview, like your whole goal is

[31:11] to show people like, I can do this job.

[31:14] I've got the skills that you need. And

[31:16] so in a job interview, we might kind of

[31:18] come across as like a more confident,

[31:20] more, you know, we're we're presenting

[31:22] ourselves in the best possible light,

[31:24] but I think we're very quick to rush to

[31:29] a personality assessment. This is called

[31:30] the um fundamental attribution error.

[31:34] So, it's like when I see someone behave

[31:36] in a particular way, like they're

[31:37] they're maybe being self-promoting,

[31:40] saying all the things that they can do

[31:41] really well, I could be like, "Oh,

[31:44] that's narcissistic." Right? That's a

[31:46] personality trait.

[31:48] >> And we tend to be more likely to do that

[31:50] to others. But if I was in their shoes,

[31:53] I would be like, I was just trying to

[31:54] show Stephen like what I could do. It's

[31:57] the situation that made me act kind of

[32:01] >> bigger than my britches, right? So we

[32:03] need to also be aware of like the

[32:07] situation can impact our behavior and so

[32:09] we want to be not too quick to make a

[32:14] personality attribution where the

[32:15] situation could explain that. And that's

[32:19] maybe a really important point to make

[32:21] here is that personality is a consistent

[32:25] pattern of thinking, feeling, and

[32:27] behaving

[32:28] >> over time and across context. So, if

[32:30] you've only got one interaction with

[32:32] this person, you've only got one

[32:34] interaction with this person, you

[32:35] probably get a sense of their

[32:36] personality, but you might see them, you

[32:38] know, out with their friends or with

[32:40] their family and they might be they

[32:42] might not be kind of so boastful, right?

[32:44] And [clears throat] that might suggest

[32:45] that this is really the situation

[32:47] talking, not the personality. And

[32:48] >> what are the gender differences in

[32:50] narcissism in terms of both different

[32:52] types of narcissism? You mentioned

[32:54] vulnerable narcissism and also grandiose

[32:56] narcissism. And then I guess there might

[32:58] be some other gender differences in our

[33:00] ability to like spot these behaviors.

[33:04] >> So when it comes to all of these traits

[33:06] that we're talking about, um, men tend

[33:09] to score somewhat higher than women. And

[33:11] that's a quite a consistent finding.

[33:14] That is not to say that women cannot

[33:16] score like very high on these traits.

[33:18] There are certainly cases and there's

[33:20] quite a bit of overlap, but on average,

[33:24] you know, the averages for men tend to

[33:25] be higher than the averages for women.

[33:27] >> And there's a fourth break.

[33:29] >> That's the the newest and latest one,

[33:31] which is sadism. When you hear sadism,

[33:34] you might jump to like pretty extreme.

[33:36] >> Yeah. [laughter] I was thinking of like

[33:37] the devil and stuff, huh?

[33:39] >> Yeah. I mean, I first started studying

[33:43] sadistic behavior in the context of like

[33:46] sexual homicides. Like I was reading

[33:48] through these descriptions of criminal

[33:51] behavior and I was looking for signs of

[33:54] sadistic treatment of the victim. So

[33:56] it's like it can get incredibly extreme,

[33:59] right? And that's probably where our

[34:00] mind goes. But there's also like kind of

[34:02] more everyday versions. One good example

[34:05] is like online trolling. So we know that

[34:08] people who are relatively high in sadism

[34:11] tend to they they take pleasure in other

[34:13] people's pain, right? And so you could

[34:16] do that in incredibly like gruesome,

[34:18] horrifying ways, or you could just be

[34:20] like pushing people's buttons online

[34:23] trying to get people upset. They all

[34:25] share kind of three things. They are

[34:29] callous, so they don't care about other

[34:31] people. They don't care about your your

[34:33] feelings or your outcomes. They're

[34:36] manipulative, so they're willing to lie

[34:38] and cheat to get what they want. And

[34:40] they're hostile toward other people. So

[34:42] that's kind of like the core of all of

[34:45] these traits. That's what they share.

[34:47] >> Facadesh.

[34:48] >> Mhm.

[34:49] >> Are they good at hiding it?

[34:50] >> Yes. In fact, some of the like earliest

[34:53] descriptions of psychopathy in

[34:55] particular described it as like a mask

[34:57] of sanity. And so it's like they can

[35:00] seem quite kind of normal on the

[35:02] surface, but if you kind of get a look

[35:05] underneath the hood, you see that

[35:06] they're not running the same kind of

[35:08] operating system that you are.

[35:10] >> What is the inverse of all this stuff?

[35:11] because we've pointed at the traits and

[35:15] a lot of those are things people

[35:16] understand but there's also some

[35:17] misconceptions. There's also the

[35:19] opposite which is like

[35:21] >> people think narcissists or psychopaths

[35:23] can't hold eye contact is one of the

[35:24] ones you hear all the time. What are

[35:26] some of these ones that through your

[35:27] research you've been able to debunk as

[35:29] not being true.

[35:30] >> So I think one of the biggest ones is

[35:32] that all people with high levels of

[35:34] psychopathy are violent and that's

[35:36] absolutely not the case.

[35:38] >> It kind of links to your your tweet

[35:40] here.

[35:40] >> Yeah. So most people think a psychopath

[35:42] looks dangerous. They picture the

[35:44] villain in a movie, but that's not how

[35:46] it works in real life. So you probably

[35:48] noticed that like in that description

[35:50] that I gave you, kind of a long-winded

[35:52] description of psychopathy with all

[35:53] those four different elements, I did say

[35:55] that there was rulebreaking, right?

[35:58] >> And sometimes that's criminal rule

[36:00] breaking. So that could be violent

[36:01] behavior, but it's not necessarily so.

[36:04] So psychopathy is like a risk factor for

[36:07] violent behavior, but there's plenty of

[36:09] people who would score relatively highly

[36:11] and and never engage in violent

[36:13] behavior. They might break rules in

[36:14] other ways, right? So I think whenever

[36:17] we hear the word psychopathy, what comes

[36:20] to mind is like a Ted Bundy, right? Ted

[36:22] Bundy type character. He reportedly

[36:26] scored, I think it's 39 out of 40 or

[36:29] something on the psychopathy checklist

[36:31] revised, which is a a measure that uh

[36:33] psychologists will use to assess how uh

[36:37] psychopathic someone is. So yeah, he's a

[36:40] bit of a poster boy uh for for those

[36:43] traits, but um certainly people can

[36:45] score highly without being, you know, a

[36:48] serial murderer.

[36:49] >> In terms of the the the amount of the

[36:51] population that have one of these dark

[36:54] personality traits,

[36:56] >> yeah,

[36:56] >> what is what are the numbers? How common

[36:58] is it?

[36:59] >> So this is a complicated question

[37:01] because as I told you, you know, all

[37:03] these traits exist on a continuum. So

[37:06] the proportion of people that we say are

[37:09] high on these traits depends on where

[37:10] you put that cut point. Right?

[37:12] >> If we're talking about psychopathy and

[37:15] clinical levels, that means um a score

[37:17] of 30 out of 40 on the psychopathy

[37:20] checklist revised or higher. That's

[37:22] about 1% of the population. Narcissistic

[37:25] personality disorder. So again, very

[37:27] extreme levels of those traits, enough

[37:30] to warrant a diagnosis. That would be

[37:33] two to five percent.

[37:35] >> We don't have clinical cut offs for

[37:38] sadism and machavelianism.

[37:40] What we do have is a ton of data of

[37:44] people who have completed self-report

[37:46] questionnaires. So like one way that you

[37:48] can kind of uh get a sense of how many

[37:51] people are high on these traits is by

[37:54] looking at the proportion of people who

[37:56] on average agree with the items. Like if

[38:00] I say I am a born leader,

[38:03] >> to what extent do you agree with that?

[38:04] That's a narcissism item.

[38:07] >> If you say yeah, I agree with that. To

[38:08] what extent do you say you like to see

[38:10] other people get hurt? Say trait. Yeah,

[38:12] I agree with that. Right? So if you just

[38:14] look at the people who on average agree

[38:17] with the items that we use to

[38:19] self-report assess uh these traits, it's

[38:22] about 10% of the population.

[38:26] >> And where where does this come from? Is

[38:27] this um is this does this come from

[38:29] childhood trauma? When you think about

[38:31] some of these, you know, these

[38:32] individuals you have on these photos in

[38:34] front of you here, where do you think

[38:35] their antisocial or dark triad or dark

[38:38] personality behavior stems from?

[38:41] >> Is it something that happened in their

[38:42] childhood? Is it genetics? Is it

[38:44] something else?

[38:45] >> The answer is both. So the research

[38:47] suggests that uh with respect to

[38:49] psychopathy, narcissism, quite similar,

[38:52] the variation in someone's score um on

[38:56] that personality trait is about 50%

[38:58] genetic and about 50% environmental

[39:02] experiences. And so, you know, it can in

[39:05] some ways make us realize that these

[39:07] people didn't ask to be this way because

[39:10] I mean, you don't get to choose your

[39:11] parents, so you're you don't get to

[39:13] choose your genetics. And then when it

[39:14] comes to those environmental experiences

[39:16] often they're like early life

[39:18] experiences and not good ones. So

[39:21] research suggests that you know abuse uh

[39:24] really kind of cold uncaring parenting

[39:27] style early in life can increase the

[39:30] likelihood that someone will have higher

[39:32] levels of these traits later in life.

[39:34] for narcissism. Um, another variable is

[39:38] like overvaluation

[39:40] of um, a child early in life may lead to

[39:44] more narcissistic abuse later.

[39:46] >> Overevaluation.

[39:47] >> So, there's one study, it was a

[39:49] longitudinal study and they asked

[39:50] parents like the extent to which they,

[39:53] you know, told their kids like you're

[39:55] special, you're like better than other

[39:58] kids. And the more the kids got that

[40:00] kind of feedback, the more likely they

[40:03] were to be more narcissistic later down

[40:06] the road. Like they thought they were

[40:07] exceptional. They thought they were

[40:09] entitled to things that other people

[40:10] were not entitled to. And that's

[40:13] different than self-esteem. We want our

[40:15] kids to have high self-esteem. We want

[40:17] them to know that they are, you know,

[40:19] cared for and worthy. That comes from

[40:22] something different. That comes from

[40:23] like a warm, responsive parenting style.

[40:27] In that study, I [clears throat] was I

[40:28] was thinking about causation and I was

[40:29] wondering if if the parents themselves

[40:31] had a genetic disposition to be

[40:33] narcissistic. Is it conceivable that

[40:35] they then

[40:36] >> spoke highly to their children? Yeah.

[40:39] >> And actually maybe it wasn't the the the

[40:41] nurturing part, it was their nature,

[40:43] i.e. that child also shared the genetics

[40:45] as the parent who had the proclivity to

[40:47] tell them that they were the most

[40:48] amazing thing ever. Does that make

[40:50] sense?

[40:50] >> Totally. I mean I mostly I I think about

[40:53] this in the context of psychopathy where

[40:55] like sometimes you've got like a perfect

[40:57] storm, right? So like you might have a

[40:59] parent who has really high levels of

[41:00] these traits. So they're passing on that

[41:02] potential genetic risk factor. But if

[41:06] you've got someone, you know, a parent

[41:07] in your household who is callous,

[41:10] manipulative, impulsive, it's going to

[41:13] be very difficult to maintain like a

[41:15] pretty stable home life for that child.

[41:19] And so they might end up experiencing,

[41:21] you know, some of those like abuse and

[41:23] and cold kind of parenting styles that

[41:25] are also environmental risk factors for

[41:28] developing psychopathy later in life. So

[41:31] they kind of get like a a double whammy.

[41:34] >> From all the research you've done and

[41:36] all the studying of these dark

[41:37] personality traits you've done and

[41:38] self-esteem and everything in between,

[41:41] is there any way to increase one's

[41:44] probability of being a good parent? like

[41:46] what like from everything you've seen

[41:48] what is the like right approach? I know

[41:50] that's a that it's a difficult thing to

[41:51] say because kids are all different but

[41:53] >> I mean warm and responsive parenting is

[41:56] it like when you look at treatment for

[41:59] kids who are showing early warning signs

[42:01] of these callous and unemotional traits.

[42:04] That's the treatment that seems to work.

[42:07] And actually that's kind of like the the

[42:09] silver lining in this whole, you know,

[42:11] kind of dark research area is that early

[42:15] intervention with kids really can help

[42:19] reduce the likelihood of them developing

[42:22] high levels of psychopathic traits as

[42:24] they grow older. And usually it's like

[42:26] it's training parents uh you know, it's

[42:28] not like a kid comes in and talks to a

[42:30] therapist like once a week and then

[42:32] we're good, right? It's it's more

[42:34] training parents about how to respond in

[42:38] ways that don't like escalate create

[42:40] these kind of like dominance contests

[42:42] when the kid acts out, but also to

[42:46] reinforce and kind of model this warm

[42:50] and responsiveness.

[42:52] But what's fascinating about uh

[42:55] psychopathy and and callous and

[42:56] unemotional traits uh in kids is that

[43:00] they tend to be not very responsive to

[43:02] punishment. They're very responsive to

[43:04] rewards. So if you see kids doing

[43:08] something kind or helpful,

[43:12] the like parent child interaction

[43:14] training teaches parents to repeat what

[43:17] they said. Say that was a very kind

[43:19] thing to say. just like repeating,

[43:21] showing, responding to them, paying

[43:24] attention to their behavior when they do

[43:26] something good or kind, reinforcing it,

[43:31] and giving that attention um to increase

[43:34] the likelihood that you see it in the

[43:35] future.

[43:36] >> And so the inverse of that in terms of a

[43:38] bad way to respond to a child that might

[43:40] lead to some of these dark personality

[43:41] traits in the future would be

[43:43] >> a cold and unresponsive parenting,

[43:45] getting angry, getting frustrated with

[43:47] them. I mean physically harming them

[43:51] that would be that's child abuse is

[43:53] associated with increased likelihood of

[43:55] developing these traits over time.

[43:57] >> You mentioned dominating in terms of

[43:59] dominating conversation trying to outdo

[44:01] them.

[44:02] >> Yeah. So, um I mean, and this is

[44:04] something that I think is not exclusive

[44:06] to, uh parenting kids with CU traits,

[44:09] but sometimes, you know, if a kid is

[44:12] having a tantrum, you'll like you'll see

[44:14] a parent saying like, "No, you can't

[44:15] have that." And then they'll like, you

[44:17] know, increase the the tantrum level

[44:19] like, "No, you can't have that." And but

[44:21] then once it gets to a certain point,

[44:22] you like give in, right? What that

[44:25] teaches is that you just need to

[44:28] escalate your behavior. you need to

[44:29] continue to like dominate your parent,

[44:32] like kick it up a notch, kick it up a

[44:34] notch, and then at some point you're

[44:35] going to win

[44:36] >> as a kid.

[44:37] >> So, that kind of parenting is is not um

[44:40] going to extinguish the negative

[44:42] behavior very effectively.

[44:44] >> And there's a brain scan there in front

[44:46] of you. What is that brain scan?

[44:48] >> This is a scan of functional MRI. So,

[44:52] what they're pointing out there is the

[44:56] prefrontal cortex. So the research

[44:58] suggests that people who have high

[45:00] levels of psychopathy tend to have less

[45:04] active and less connected uh prefrontal

[45:07] cortex. That's associated with impulse

[45:08] control. It's also associated with kind

[45:10] of moral reasoning, moral thinking. If

[45:12] they're, you know, brains are less

[45:14] active during the same moral or impulse

[45:17] control task in those regions, this

[45:20] might help us to explain why they're

[45:23] more likely to behave impulsively to,

[45:26] you know, not be empathetic to other

[45:28] people. There's also um the amygdala,

[45:30] which I don't think you can see on here,

[45:32] but and it's on the inside.

[45:34] >> You can open it up. [laughter]

[45:35] >> Okay, let's see. So other research on um

[45:39] psychopathy suggests that the amygdala

[45:42] which is deep within our brain is also

[45:44] associated with emotional response

[45:47] particularly fear. And so we know that

[45:49] people with high levels of psychopathy

[45:51] tend to have they experience pretty low

[45:52] fear. And they're not very good at like

[45:57] aversive conditioning, right? So like if

[45:59] we get punished for something,

[46:01] >> we learn that whenever we we, you know,

[46:04] come up against that stimuli again in

[46:06] the future, we're like, "Oh, that turned

[46:08] out really badly [laughter] last time.

[46:10] I'm going to avoid that." So amydalas in

[46:12] people with high levels of psychopathy

[46:14] tend to be both smaller and less active.

[46:17] So there there is like, you know, brain

[46:20] differences, neurological differences

[46:22] between people with high levels and low

[46:24] levels of psychopathy. So I guess this

[46:27] begs the question that if someone has

[46:28] those traits you've described or if

[46:30] they're any one of these four things in

[46:31] this dark triad, these dark personality

[46:33] traits, can they be cured? So some

[46:38] change is possible,

[46:42] but I mean [laughter]

[46:45] some

[46:46] some being an operative word there. So

[46:49] most of the research we have on on

[46:51] psychopathy in particular comes from

[46:54] criminal offenders. So, individuals who

[46:56] are incarcerated have to take part in

[46:58] some treatment uh while they're inside.

[47:01] And the research finds that they're not

[47:04] particularly motivated to change. So,

[47:06] that's a big problem with like all of

[47:08] these things because they don't

[47:10] particularly care about other people and

[47:12] it tends to be other people that they

[47:14] are hurting with their behavior and so

[47:16] it's like why would I change? This is

[47:18] like a you problem, not a me problem,

[47:20] right? So motivation uh can be difficult

[47:24] to come by with this population. But if

[47:27] they do consistently engage in cognitive

[47:30] behavioral therapies, you can reduce the

[47:33] likelihood of uh recidivism. So the

[47:37] likelihood that they will reaffend upon

[47:39] release. Again, we're talking about

[47:40] incarcerated individuals. When it comes

[47:43] to lower levels of these traits, this

[47:46] really interesting research by Nathan

[47:48] Hudson had people do these agreeableness

[47:51] challenges. And agreeableness is kind of

[47:53] like the opposite of [laughter] these

[47:55] traits. So you would just like ping them

[47:58] on their smartphone every day and would

[48:01] say like, "Oh, you should give a

[48:02] compliment to a friend. You should reach

[48:04] out to a friend and just offer them some

[48:07] encouragement. you should, you know, buy

[48:09] coffee for the person behind you in line

[48:11] at the cafe today. [gasps] These little

[48:14] things where people were encouraged to

[48:16] be kind, be helpful to other people, to

[48:20] see other people's perspectives.

[48:22] And people who actually followed through

[48:25] on those did report having lower levels

[48:28] of these traits after 4 months than at

[48:30] the start. And in your book, under the

[48:32] section that says hard truths, um, dark

[48:35] personalities persist, you write,

[48:37] "Poisonous people aren't likely to

[48:38] change very much. Personality traits are

[48:41] by definition enduring. Although some

[48:43] evolution of our character happens

[48:45] naturally, it takes decade. Data

[48:47] suggests that people become a bit more

[48:48] agreeable over time, and research with

[48:51] incarcerated men finds that even those

[48:54] with clinical levels of psychopathy are

[48:56] less likely to reaffend as they get

[48:58] older. Even so, waiting it out is likely

[49:02] to be a painful strategy. One study

[49:04] asked more than a thousand people who

[49:06] knew individual who were psychopathic

[49:08] for a long time whether their behavior

[49:10] had improved past the age of 50. Almost

[49:13] all respondents, 93%

[49:16] said that as researchers put it, quote,

[49:19] the behavior was just as bad or worse

[49:23] after age 50 than it had been

[49:26] previously. just as bad or worse.

[49:29] >> I mean, it's their personality, right?

[49:31] So, it's kind of like asking a tiger to

[49:34] change their stripes. So, if you're not

[49:36] motivated to do it, as we know, people

[49:38] with these traits tend not to be very

[49:40] motivated. That's where that, you know,

[49:42] 90ome% of folks come in. It's like

[49:44] they're not they're not dramatically

[49:46] changing unless they find some reason to

[49:50] do so.

[49:51] One of the smartest things a business

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[49:58] the problem we all face is that most

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[50:01] house. So when I look at the businesses

[50:03] seeing real success today, the

[50:05] consistent pattern with all of them is

[50:07] how quickly they move. They bring in

[50:08] specialists with skills in emerging

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[50:12] our company, we've spent the last year

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[50:50] Hello. I wasn't able to make that

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[50:54] missed? What I have in front of me is

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[50:59] I spend most of my life sat in very,

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[51:01] different teams and lots of different

[51:03] departments. In any given week, I could

[51:04] have 40, 50 meetings and sometimes more.

[51:07] But also, I sit in podcasts where lots

[51:09] of very interesting things get said and

[51:11] I need to focus on the conversation.

[51:13] What whisper flows notetaker does for me

[51:15] is it captures the entire context of

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[51:26] actions things that I said I would do

[51:27] that I haven't yet done. It's building

[51:29] this sort of broader context of

[51:31] everything that's happening in my life.

[51:33] And it's an incredible incredible

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[51:49] realize why we let them sponsor this

[51:51] podcast. It's amazing. Is there anything

[51:53] else in this bucket that you find

[51:54] interesting? Cuz I know you um you may

[51:55] or may not be working on a book that

[51:58] really focuses on deception, but is

[51:59] there anything else that we haven't

[52:00] covered here that you think is pertinent

[52:01] or any research that you uncovered that

[52:03] was fascinating?

[52:05] So, in my lab right now, I've become

[52:08] increasingly fascinated with how we

[52:11] respond to people who are lying to us

[52:13] when we're not suspicious at all. Cuz

[52:15] most of the research is like, I give you

[52:18] a bunch of videos and I tell you some of

[52:20] these people are lying, some are telling

[52:22] the truth, and you make judgments about

[52:23] them. But that's not how real life works

[52:25] like at all. Right? So, usually we're

[52:28] having some sort of interaction with

[52:30] people. No one comes in and says you

[52:32] need to judge the veracity of this

[52:33] person. We're just having a

[52:35] conversation. And so I've been really

[52:37] interested in how um conversations

[52:40] unfold, how interactions unfold when one

[52:43] person is lying and the other person is

[52:45] just like none the wiser. And so we keep

[52:49] finding these small but consistent

[52:51] effects that people feel less close to

[52:55] their interaction partner when someone

[52:58] is lying to them.

[52:59] >> Close. Yeah, it's like so we actually

[53:01] had this study where um we got people to

[53:05] just converse, right? Talk to a

[53:07] stranger. One person was told to lie in

[53:10] response to everything. The other person

[53:11] had no idea that was going on. And at

[53:13] the end of that study, the diads that

[53:16] had a liar in them said like, I feel,

[53:20] you know, less connected to this other

[53:22] person than diads where both people were

[53:25] telling the truth. And so we also found

[53:28] that the more lies that people tell,

[53:31] they just, you know, self-report on how

[53:33] much they lie in their everyday life,

[53:35] the more lonely they feel. And so we're

[53:39] finding this kind of birectional effect.

[53:42] And and I think often people lie to like

[53:46] spare the feelings of others. That's for

[53:49] the average person, not necessarily

[53:52] these traits here, but for the average

[53:53] person, most of the lies that we tell

[53:55] are pro-social in nature. Like, I tell

[53:56] you a lie because I don't want to hurt

[53:58] your feelings, but we are finding that

[54:00] that actually creates this like social

[54:02] distance between us as opposed to

[54:05] bringing us closer together. And so,

[54:07] I've been really interested in just kind

[54:08] of like the negative impacts of telling

[54:11] lies even when we do it for quote

[54:13] unquote good reasons. In that you talked

[54:16] about how when if we were both sat down

[54:18] and you were asked to lie to me, I would

[54:20] walk away feeling like I was less close

[54:22] i.e. slashconnected to you.

[54:24] >> What is it in your in your behavior

[54:28] or in my perception that you think is

[54:30] causing

[54:31] >> this feeling of disconnection?

[54:33] >> Mhm. So we are finding that people who

[54:39] are lying are perceived as less warm.

[54:43] They're perceived as less competent.

[54:45] They're perceived as less moral. Also,

[54:48] if we think about like some of the cues

[54:50] to deception that we talked about

[54:52] earlier, when people give relatively few

[54:55] details about themselves, conversations

[54:57] are based on this reciprocal exchange,

[54:59] right? Like I tell you something about

[55:01] myself, you tell me something about

[55:03] yourself. And like we start to know each

[55:05] other, right?

[55:06] >> And so if you've got someone who's lying

[55:08] to you, they're giving you less

[55:09] information about themselves, for

[55:11] example. And so I don't feel like I know

[55:13] you at the end of our conversation. Even

[55:16] though I'm not like actively suspicious

[55:18] that you're lying to me about your likes

[55:20] and your interests and what you did on

[55:22] Friday afternoon, it comes across

[55:24] because you gave me less information and

[55:27] maybe I think he didn't really want to

[55:29] talk to me.

[55:31] >> I mean, I'm so fascinated by this the

[55:33] fact that you have a lab that tests this

[55:34] stuff.

[55:35] >> What are some of the fascinating

[55:36] questions you've gone in search of

[55:38] answers for in your lab?

[55:40] One that I love is um how much sympathy

[55:45] people feel for

[55:48] individuals who are lying or telling the

[55:50] truth about how sad they are. So like

[55:52] think back to the pleaders, right, that

[55:54] we talked about. If you look at this

[55:58] face, right, versus this face, like how

[56:00] much empathy do you have for that

[56:02] person? How sad do you feel? How willing

[56:05] are you to donate money to whatever

[56:07] cause they're looking for? So like we

[56:10] studied this with

[56:12] the pleaders that we talked about. So

[56:14] people who went on TV and asked for help

[56:16] trying to find their missing loved one,

[56:17] half of whom were actually responsible

[56:19] for killing that person they pleaded to

[56:21] find. And we showed people again, they

[56:24] weren't aware that some of these folks

[56:25] were lying and some were telling the

[56:27] truth. But we showed them these videos

[56:29] and we said, "How much sympathy do you

[56:31] feel for this person who's asking for

[56:33] help trying to find the missing

[56:35] individual? And how much money would you

[56:37] donate to a theoretical GoFundMe that

[56:40] would like help support the search for

[56:42] this missing person?" And we find really

[56:44] consistently that people are more

[56:47] willing to donate money to the genuine

[56:50] pleaders relative to the deceptive ones.

[56:53] and they feel more kind of sympathy and

[56:55] compassion for them even though they're

[56:57] not, you know, they don't know that some

[57:00] of these folks are actually like

[57:02] deceptive murderers. And the effects are

[57:04] like, you know, not gigantic, but it

[57:07] does suggest that like we're not

[57:09] completely clueless moving through the

[57:12] world. But when we reduce it to a simple

[57:15] binary, is this person lying or telling

[57:17] the truth?

[57:19] >> We lose a lot of kind of like the nuance

[57:21] of how we move through our relationships

[57:25] and like, oh, I'm feeling kind of close

[57:27] to this person, closer to that person.

[57:29] I'm willing to help this person more

[57:31] than that person. Yeah. So, those are

[57:33] the kinds of things I've been interested

[57:34] in. One of the things I spoke to Vanessa

[57:36] Van Edwards on this podcast a few times

[57:38] and she she does a lot of stuff around

[57:39] like body language and how you show up

[57:41] and she talks about warmth and

[57:43] competence.

[57:44] >> Yeah.

[57:45] >> And how some people can overindex on

[57:46] warmth and maybe that brings them down

[57:48] on competence or they can overindex on

[57:50] competence but be less warm. Wanted to

[57:52] know if you had a perspective on this

[57:54] like how like through your research and

[57:57] through all the studies you've done

[58:00] can you be warm and competent at the

[58:01] same time or is is there a bit of a

[58:03] trade-off? And like what even you used

[58:05] the word warmth a second ago. What is it

[58:07] to be a warm person? Is it to be like

[58:09] how is it like you know like

[58:11] >> No, it's like it is the sense that

[58:14] someone is kind and honest and

[58:17] trustworthy. It is your benevolent

[58:20] intentions toward another person. Right?

[58:24] So, we trust people to the extent that

[58:26] they are both warm and competent in this

[58:29] in the sense that like

[58:31] >> I'm going to trust you if I think you

[58:33] have benevolent intentions for me that I

[58:35] think you you like want to be kind to me

[58:38] >> but also if I think you can actually

[58:40] execute on that thing like do you have

[58:42] the competence the ability to actually

[58:45] you know do that thing make that

[58:46] connection for me at work right it's

[58:49] like if you are just warm but like

[58:52] you've got no you don't have like the

[58:54] the ability to to back it up, then we

[58:57] tend to trust those individuals less. So

[59:00] this warmth, high warmth, high

[59:02] competence tends to be associated with

[59:03] high trustworthiness.

[59:05] >> And does high warmth come with certain

[59:08] behaviors?

[59:09] >> Yeah. I mean, one is just smiling.

[59:12] [laughter]

[59:12] >> Okay. Yeah.

[59:14] eye contact, you know, it it reminds me

[59:17] of the research by Allison Woodbrooks,

[59:19] who I know has been here before as well.

[59:22] And, you know, being engaged and

[59:24] interested in your

[59:27] conversation partner, right? Being these

[59:29] like immediacy cues like you're leaning

[59:31] in, you're paying attention, you are

[59:34] smiling, you're making eye contact.

[59:36] These things are associated with warmth.

[59:37] >> What about

[59:39] resting face? [laughter]

[59:42] uh I am occasionally guilty of this

[59:45] thing when I [laughter]

[59:47] concentrate. So

[59:50] when we have very little information

[59:52] about a person, we're just trying to

[59:54] pick up on anything right in their in

[59:57] their body language, their non-verbal

[59:59] behavior to try to make an assessment of

[1:00:02] them. If we've just got like a quick

[1:00:04] look at your face and there's a bit of a

[1:00:07] scowl on it, that signals to us anger.

[1:00:10] And anger is not a very trust that's not

[1:00:13] a warm thing, right? And so that tends

[1:00:16] to decrease our perceived

[1:00:17] trustworthiness of people.

[1:00:18] >> Any other fascinating questions you've

[1:00:20] pursued in your lab?

[1:00:21] >> So I've been really interested in

[1:00:24] psychopathy as it relates to like

[1:00:27] leadership outcomes.

[1:00:29] >> So whenever I finished my PhD,

[1:00:32] I was trying to figure out what I was

[1:00:34] going to do next. And I was kind of

[1:00:36] bummed out thinking about murder all the

[1:00:39] time. I was like, I really love these

[1:00:41] topics, but I got to I got to go

[1:00:43] somewhere else and like think about this

[1:00:45] in a different context. It was shortly

[1:00:47] after like the Bernie Maidoff Ponzi

[1:00:49] scheme kind of fell apart. And I was

[1:00:51] like, oh, maybe like business school,

[1:00:54] like I could go to a different context

[1:00:56] and study these same like personality

[1:00:58] traits just in a different area. And I

[1:01:02] was also interested in like this notion

[1:01:04] of uh successful psychopathy because

[1:01:07] like since really early descriptions of

[1:01:09] psychopathy, there's been this

[1:01:11] suggestion that these traits can

[1:01:12] actually help you to succeed, right? And

[1:01:15] I often hear that from people where

[1:01:17] they're like,

[1:01:19] "Yeah, like that's terrible behavior,

[1:01:21] but like you know, sometimes that helps,

[1:01:23] right?" And I'm like, "Does it like

[1:01:25] what's what does the data say on that?"

[1:01:28] And so I work with um Derer Kelner and

[1:01:31] >> Dak has been here as well.

[1:01:32] >> Has he?

[1:01:33] >> Yeah,

[1:01:33] >> I love him. He's so wonderful. I love

[1:01:36] him. And so we studied, you know, the

[1:01:38] extent to which psychopathic personality

[1:01:40] traits could increase the amount of

[1:01:42] influence you have in government and

[1:01:45] also the amount of money that you make

[1:01:46] as a hedge fund manager. Those are kind

[1:01:48] of the two cont because I was like these

[1:01:50] hyper competitive contexts, right,

[1:01:54] where maybe in government you can kind

[1:01:56] of like backstab and backroom deals and

[1:01:58] whatever. They might be able you might

[1:02:00] be able to get lots of co-sponsors on

[1:02:01] your bills if you're using kind of these

[1:02:03] backroom tactics. And then I thought

[1:02:06] with respect to money, maybe you're

[1:02:08] willing to take more risks, right?

[1:02:10] You're willing to cut people or

[1:02:12] companies down in public. you're not so

[1:02:15] worried about hurting other people. So

[1:02:20] I of course was like these are

[1:02:21] situations where people with high levels

[1:02:23] of psychopathy can shine. Derer was like

[1:02:27] no [laughter] it won't be. So we were

[1:02:29] kind of pitting these like good versus

[1:02:30] evil concepts against each other and

[1:02:33] consistently we found that high levels

[1:02:35] of psychopathy was associated with less

[1:02:38] influence in government. It was also

[1:02:41] associated with making less money as a

[1:02:44] hedge fund manager whereas it's very

[1:02:46] like counterintuitive

[1:02:48] I think to people.

[1:02:50] >> What about some of these other ones like

[1:02:51] narcissism and machavel? What about

[1:02:53] those ones?

[1:02:54] >> So it really depends on like how you

[1:02:56] define success. So there is some

[1:02:58] research to suggest that narcissism,

[1:03:00] machavelianism can be associated with

[1:03:02] kind of rising up in ranks, maybe having

[1:03:04] a higher salary level, but

[1:03:07] they're not associated with like teams

[1:03:10] doing great, right? And honestly, most

[1:03:14] of the research is is on um psychopathy.

[1:03:17] the the work that I'm interested in is

[1:03:19] that people with high levels of

[1:03:22] psychopathy, they talk a really good

[1:03:24] game and they make people think that

[1:03:26] they're a great like tactical

[1:03:28] communicator. They're very strategic

[1:03:30] thinkers. But if you actually ask them

[1:03:32] like how good are they at their job,

[1:03:34] they say they're they're a terrible

[1:03:36] manager. They tend to bully their

[1:03:38] subordinates. They create a huge amount

[1:03:40] of stress for other people on their

[1:03:43] team. Um and their teams have worse

[1:03:44] outcomes because of it. So, when you're

[1:03:47] talking about team performance, you're

[1:03:49] saying narcissists typically aren't good

[1:03:51] at leading teams over the long term,

[1:03:55] >> they tend to come across as like

[1:03:57] leadership material early on. And

[1:04:00] there's this one study by um Dell Paul

[1:04:02] House which shows this quite nicely is

[1:04:04] like they had these student groups and

[1:04:06] they would work together throughout the

[1:04:07] term. After the first meeting, they all

[1:04:08] made judgments about each other, how

[1:04:10] likable they were, etc., etc., whether

[1:04:13] they seemed, you know, confident and

[1:04:15] smart and, you know, agreeable. The

[1:04:18] people who were high in narcissism

[1:04:20] came across really well in that first

[1:04:23] interaction. Like they said they they

[1:04:25] knew what they were doing. They came

[1:04:26] across very confident. They seemed like

[1:04:29] they could lead. They wanted to lead,

[1:04:32] but then as the course of the the term

[1:04:34] went by, people were like, "This person

[1:04:36] is actually really hostile and like

[1:04:39] doesn't do their work and they're a pain

[1:04:41] in the butt." So

[1:04:43] certainly the you know the thing that

[1:04:45] can make narcissism look good at the

[1:04:49] outset is our confusion of confidence

[1:04:52] and competence. So when someone says

[1:04:55] they can do something and they say it

[1:04:56] very confidently, we're like, "Oh, they

[1:04:58] got this." Right? But that's not the

[1:05:00] same thing as actually being able to do

[1:05:02] it. There's often like an assumption

[1:05:04] that people that are actors or have

[1:05:07] certain roles where they're on stage

[1:05:09] performing have higher levels of some of

[1:05:11] these things. Is that is there any truth

[1:05:13] to that at all?

[1:05:15] >> Not to my knowledge. Although

[1:05:18] so I think where it would mostly

[1:05:21] intersect is like if you have any

[1:05:23] training in like the Stanislavski

[1:05:25] technique which is like trying to

[1:05:28] experience an emotion. Like if I need to

[1:05:30] portray an emotion to you, I want to

[1:05:32] come across as genuinely sad in this

[1:05:34] scene or whatever, I might recall a time

[1:05:37] in which I genuinely felt sad to try to

[1:05:39] like bring that emotion up as opposed to

[1:05:42] like trying to fake it. I try to

[1:05:43] actually feel it. So that kind of

[1:05:46] training might help you to like, you

[1:05:47] know, mimic some emotions. But to I

[1:05:51] don't know of any research that would

[1:05:52] suggest that actors would be higher in

[1:05:55] these traits or not. Uh equally, we have

[1:05:58] some cards here which are people's

[1:06:00] dating profiles.

[1:06:01] >> Okay.

[1:06:02] >> And I'm wondering if you can spot any of

[1:06:03] these dark personality traits just by

[1:06:05] looking at dating profiles or any clues,

[1:06:07] >> okay,

[1:06:07] >> that might be associated with it.

[1:06:09] >> All right.

[1:06:11] So, this is Ryan. He's a chief of staff

[1:06:14] in Washington DC. Professionally trained

[1:06:17] to argue my point. So, yes, I'm probably

[1:06:19] going to win the debate about what to

[1:06:21] have for dinner. Okay, this feels like a

[1:06:23] red [laughter] flag. Um, savvy,

[1:06:25] strategic, and persuasive by trade. I

[1:06:28] mean, this feels very much like

[1:06:30] Machavevelianism,

[1:06:32] right? Kind of like controlling the

[1:06:33] situation, being kind of a smooth

[1:06:36] talker. Savvy meaning like they're

[1:06:40] they're controlling you. They're maybe

[1:06:42] using information to get you to do what

[1:06:45] they want. Strategic, right? We talked

[1:06:47] about that very kind of strategic social

[1:06:50] style where like they're not kind of

[1:06:52] impulsively behaving like someone with

[1:06:55] psychopathy. They're more like three

[1:06:57] playing three-dimensional chess, right,

[1:06:59] to get what they want. So that's quite a

[1:07:01] strategic behavior.

[1:07:02] >> Off the clock, you'll find me exploring

[1:07:04] the city, enjoying great food,

[1:07:06] traveling, and keeping life interesting,

[1:07:07] looking for someone who makes me laugh.

[1:07:09] So I think the words to me that are like

[1:07:13] might be used as like euphemisms

[1:07:15] essentially for some of the

[1:07:17] Machavevelian traits would be savvy,

[1:07:20] strategic, persuasive, like I can get

[1:07:22] anybody to do anything cuz I'm just

[1:07:24] going to manipulate them into doing it.

[1:07:26] Now

[1:07:28] these these could be red flags. He could

[1:07:30] be a perfectly nice guy, but these are

[1:07:33] things that I would like go into that

[1:07:35] conversation thinking like, okay, does

[1:07:38] he seem very cynical of people? Is he

[1:07:40] quite power hungry? Is he willing to

[1:07:43] manipulate other people to his own ends

[1:07:45] and kind of step over other people for

[1:07:47] what he wants?

[1:07:48] >> What about that last line about makes me

[1:07:50] laugh? I I found that to be quite self-

[1:07:52] serving in a way cuz know it's it's

[1:07:55] you're looking for something yourself

[1:07:56] there and that's obviously can be true.

[1:07:59] We're all looking for someone that can

[1:08:00] make us laugh, but whether you'd write

[1:08:01] that is

[1:08:02] >> I don't know. Yeah,

[1:08:03] >> just interesting

[1:08:04] >> potentially. All right, so this is

[1:08:05] Haley, who is a lawyer. Uh, my friends

[1:08:08] call me hurricane, but you can call me

[1:08:10] Haley. Equal parts chaos and good

[1:08:12] company. Chaos is immediately bringing

[1:08:14] up uh potential psychopathy because

[1:08:18] that's like that impulsivity, like you

[1:08:20] kind of don't really know where she's

[1:08:21] at. In women in particular, psychopathy

[1:08:24] can be associated with like pretty

[1:08:26] volatile emotions and like connecting

[1:08:30] with like we seem really close one day

[1:08:32] and then I'm really angry at you the

[1:08:33] next day. I'll happily spend the weekend

[1:08:35] trying to trying a new workout class or

[1:08:38] plotting a harmless prank on my friends.

[1:08:41] That's a sadism [laughter] red flag. So,

[1:08:45] someone who is, you know, maybe

[1:08:47] delighting in someone else getting hurt,

[1:08:50] that could be concerning. Outspoken,

[1:08:53] tough enough to handle myself. Toughness

[1:08:55] is associated with psychopathy. Do you

[1:08:57] think you can handle me?

[1:09:00] [laughter]

[1:09:01] That's up to you.

[1:09:04] Okay. David is a brain surgeon. Very

[1:09:07] impressive. So, he's a surgeon by day,

[1:09:10] theater enthusiast, and cocktail

[1:09:11] appreciator by night. I'm confident

[1:09:13] enough to pick the restaurant, self

[1:09:15] assured to admit when I'm wrong

[1:09:17] occasionally.

[1:09:18] And my friends would describe me as the

[1:09:20] life of the party. So, this is giving

[1:09:23] like potential narcissism cues, right?

[1:09:26] So, loves a lot of attention, life of

[1:09:29] the party. Confident enough to pick like

[1:09:32] he he won't be wrong about picking the

[1:09:34] restaurant. Self assured enough to admit

[1:09:35] when I'm wrong occasionally, he put in

[1:09:38] brackets. So, you might not see a ton of

[1:09:41] that behavior. Don't worry, I'm sure I

[1:09:43] can find the time for you somewhere.

[1:09:45] [laughter] Winky face.

[1:09:49] So, you might not be a priority.

[1:09:51] [laughter]

[1:09:51] >> Yeah.

[1:09:52] >> But, you know, again, so I'm seeing

[1:09:55] narcissism vibes here. That's something

[1:09:57] I would, you know, pay attention to in

[1:09:59] our conversation would be like, does he

[1:10:01] ever ask anything about me or do we just

[1:10:04] talk about him and how fabulous and

[1:10:06] amazing his life is the whole time? M

[1:10:09] >> um so dating,

[1:10:12] you know, profiles are like an

[1:10:14] advertisement that [laughter] you put

[1:10:16] out there. So this is not an entire

[1:10:18] person's personality. So we can gather

[1:10:21] more information over time, but some red

[1:10:22] flags there.

[1:10:25] This is Chad. He's in law enforcement in

[1:10:27] Texas. He's barbecuing in the picture,

[1:10:30] which feels on brand. Looking for my

[1:10:32] wife who will join me for life. No debt

[1:10:34] and no kids. Don't worry, ladies. I'm

[1:10:37] housetrained. When I'm off duty, I'm

[1:10:39] very independent. You all find me

[1:10:41] hunting outdoors, grilling, or

[1:10:44] challenging my buddies, looking for

[1:10:45] someone genuine to share life's

[1:10:47] adventures with.

[1:10:50] >> Nice kind.

[1:10:51] >> Seems okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:10:55] >> I wonder what he's growling.

[1:10:56] >> Yeah. Okay. If I was to go on a date

[1:10:59] with any of these people, Haley, Ryan,

[1:11:01] David, Chad, from these dating cards

[1:11:03] that we just read out, what are the type

[1:11:05] of verbal and non-verbal cues that I

[1:11:07] would be looking for, whether I was

[1:11:09] dating them or in a relationship with

[1:11:10] them to figure out if they had any of

[1:11:12] these dark personality traits?

[1:11:14] >> Again, these are kind of early warning

[1:11:15] signs that you can look for. Um, things

[1:11:17] like, do they interrupt you often but

[1:11:20] refuse to tolerate it when you

[1:11:22] interrupt? Right? And so this is kind of

[1:11:24] a indication of that impulsivity as well

[1:11:26] as potential dominance over other

[1:11:28] people. They want to dominate you. And I

[1:11:30] mean sometimes people get excited and

[1:11:32] they just want to like interject and

[1:11:33] share something. Here what we're really

[1:11:35] interested in is it's a cue to

[1:11:37] impulsivity but like refusing to

[1:11:40] tolerate it when you interrupt. That

[1:11:41] makes them quite angry. Do they

[1:11:44] consistently ignore personal or

[1:11:46] professional boundaries? So, you know,

[1:11:49] maybe you're at work or maybe you're

[1:11:51] you're on one of these dates, right? And

[1:11:53] you say, "I' I'd really rather not talk

[1:11:55] about my family right now and they

[1:11:58] continue to ask you about your family."

[1:12:00] And you're like, "I really don't want to

[1:12:01] talk about that right now." Okay. Yeah.

[1:12:02] Tell me about your brother and this

[1:12:04] terrible relationship you have with

[1:12:05] them. So, kind of always pushing on

[1:12:08] boundaries even when they're they're set

[1:12:10] explicitly. Do they seem weirdly calm?

[1:12:13] This is related to psychopathy and that

[1:12:15] kind of shallow emotional affect like

[1:12:18] they're not experiencing fear or sadness

[1:12:21] or concern for other people when you

[1:12:23] would expect they would in a

[1:12:25] conversation.

[1:12:27] Do they seem to be an authority on every

[1:12:29] subject? This is a narcissism vibe,

[1:12:32] right? Like they know everything about

[1:12:34] everything and and you you don't know

[1:12:36] anything, right? So they need to be the

[1:12:39] authority. Do they offer impulsive

[1:12:41] off-the-cuff responses to your question?

[1:12:43] So, they're not really thinking about

[1:12:45] things. They're just saying whatever

[1:12:46] comes to their mind immediately, a sign

[1:12:48] of uh potential impulsivity. That's

[1:12:51] associated with psychopathy. Do they

[1:12:53] seem to come across as tough, combative,

[1:12:55] or cruel? Right. So, psychopathy

[1:12:58] associated with aggression, uh wanting

[1:13:00] to dominate people, cruelty, of course,

[1:13:03] sadism. So,

[1:13:04] >> Haley here, she said about throwing

[1:13:06] pranks, she's called herself tough.

[1:13:08] >> Mhm. and asked if we could handle her.

[1:13:11] So maybe that's lynx.

[1:13:12] >> Yep. Exactly. Um this one's interesting.

[1:13:15] So do they make intense eye contact with

[1:13:17] you seeming to peer into your soul? One

[1:13:20] of the things that clinicians have noted

[1:13:22] with people with high levels of

[1:13:23] psychopathy is that they tend to make

[1:13:24] really intense eye contact.

[1:13:27] >> H okay.

[1:13:29] >> Uh do they seem to lack emotions related

[1:13:30] to self-awareness such as embarrassment,

[1:13:32] embarrassment or shame? These are the

[1:13:34] kind of broader self-conscious emotions

[1:13:37] um like remorse, like guilt that are

[1:13:40] associated with uh psychopathy, a

[1:13:42] deficit in those. Do they spend a lot of

[1:13:45] time talking about themselves and show

[1:13:46] much less interest in you? That's our

[1:13:49] old friend narcissism.

[1:13:50] >> Mhm.

[1:13:50] >> Mhm.

[1:13:51] >> And when others are struggling, do they

[1:13:53] find it enjoyable, annoying, or boring?

[1:13:56] And that would be associated with

[1:13:58] sadism.

[1:13:59] >> This is something that I've made for

[1:14:01] you. I realized that the dire audience

[1:14:03] are strivvers. Whether it's in business

[1:14:05] or health, we all have big goals that we

[1:14:07] want to accomplish. And one of the

[1:14:09] things I've learned is that when you aim

[1:14:11] at the big big big goal, it can feel

[1:14:14] incredibly psychologically uncomfortable

[1:14:17] because it's kind of like being stood at

[1:14:18] the foot of Mount Everest and looking

[1:14:20] upwards. The way to accomplish your

[1:14:22] goals is by breaking them down into tiny

[1:14:24] small steps. And we call this in our

[1:14:26] team the 1%. And actually this

[1:14:28] philosophy is highly responsible for

[1:14:30] much of our success here. So what we've

[1:14:33] done so that you at home can accomplish

[1:14:34] any big goal that you have is we've made

[1:14:37] these 1% diaries and we released these

[1:14:40] last year and they all sold out. So I

[1:14:42] asked my team over and over again to

[1:14:44] bring the diaries back but also to

[1:14:45] introduce some new colors and to make

[1:14:46] some minor tweaks to the diary. So now

[1:14:49] we have a better range for you. So, if

[1:14:53] you have a big goal in mind and you need

[1:14:55] a framework and a process and some

[1:14:56] motivation, then I highly recommend you

[1:14:59] get one of these diaries before they all

[1:15:01] sell out once again. And you can get

[1:15:02] yours at the diary.com.

[1:15:05] And if you want the link, the link is in

[1:15:06] the description below. There should be a

[1:15:08] button just down below here. And if it

[1:15:10] says subscribed, you're already

[1:15:12] subscribed. If it says subscriber, that

[1:15:14] means you're not yet. And if you're not

[1:15:16] subscribed, please could you do us a

[1:15:17] favor and hit that button? It helps the

[1:15:18] show more than you know. And according

[1:15:20] to the algorithm, you're someone that

[1:15:22] watches our show, but you haven't yet

[1:15:23] hit that button. Thank you so much. With

[1:15:25] two things in mind,

[1:15:26] >> Mhm.

[1:15:27] >> The first thing is that these dark

[1:15:29] personality traits are very common

[1:15:31] relative to the impact they can have on

[1:15:32] lives. I think they're extremely common.

[1:15:34] Uh and the second thing is that

[1:15:35] according to your book and some of the

[1:15:36] research, people don't tend to change.

[1:15:39] So this leads me to the conclusion that

[1:15:41] we might have to figure out how to deal

[1:15:42] with these people because if we work in

[1:15:44] a company or a team or even if we work

[1:15:46] in a family, if I look at some of those

[1:15:47] stats around antisocial personality

[1:15:49] behaviors,

[1:15:50] >> it would suggest roughly one in five

[1:15:52] people are going to be antisocial in

[1:15:54] some way.

[1:15:55] >> So we can't just hope to avoid them in

[1:15:58] our lives.

[1:15:59] >> No, you're I mean everyone's got a

[1:16:02] story, I think. And I think people feel

[1:16:04] relatively powerless like because the

[1:16:07] approaches that we tend to take with

[1:16:09] other people when they hurt us don't

[1:16:11] work very well for these individuals.

[1:16:12] Like when someone hurts us, we might be

[1:16:15] like we show them, we tell them that

[1:16:17] really hurt me and then they feel guilt

[1:16:19] and they might apologize, right? Or we

[1:16:22] might punish them in some way and then

[1:16:24] that leads them to avoid that behavior

[1:16:27] in the future. These are precisely

[1:16:29] things that people with psychopathy, for

[1:16:31] example, like doesn't really work,

[1:16:33] right? And so we're left being like, how

[1:16:35] do I deal with this? Like my tools are

[1:16:37] not working. But I think what's really

[1:16:40] kind of powerful to know is that there

[1:16:42] are things that you can do. So we've got

[1:16:45] seven rules for dealing with people with

[1:16:47] dark personalities. So the first one is

[1:16:51] to establish clear boundaries. And I

[1:16:55] want to kind of preface this by saying

[1:16:57] like setting out the rules is not like a

[1:16:59] guarantee that they won't be broken.

[1:17:00] Right? We've talked about with respect

[1:17:02] to psychopathy that they tend to break

[1:17:04] the rules. That's like a defining

[1:17:05] feature of that personality.

[1:17:07] [sighs and gasps]

[1:17:08] But research suggests that establishing

[1:17:11] clear rules, making them explicit

[1:17:14] decreases the likelihood of kind of

[1:17:16] selfish behavior, for example,

[1:17:19] compared to if there's no rules

[1:17:21] whatsoever. Right.

[1:17:23] >> Okay. So sometimes like you know in my

[1:17:25] workplace we have a respectful workplace

[1:17:27] policy which when I read it was like why

[1:17:30] do people need a respectful like why do

[1:17:32] people need to be reminded of this this

[1:17:34] seems so obvious right but there's

[1:17:36] really good reasons to have a

[1:17:37] respectable workplace policy. One is

[1:17:39] that it makes very explicit how we

[1:17:42] expect people to be treated here. that

[1:17:44] is going to decrease the likelihood of

[1:17:46] people even with with you know kind of

[1:17:49] moderate levels of these traits let's

[1:17:50] say will violate those rules and more

[1:17:53] than that if they do violate the rules

[1:17:55] you've got you've got something written

[1:17:57] down that's like you're not supposed to

[1:17:59] do this otherwise it's very hard to kind

[1:18:01] of do anything about it right in a

[1:18:04] relationship you can make this really

[1:18:05] clear like what's okay what's not okay

[1:18:07] in this relationship and you got to tell

[1:18:09] the other person that it can't just be

[1:18:10] in your head right so you got to make

[1:18:13] these rules um explicit and it can also

[1:18:16] help to like read in a buddy like if

[1:18:18] you've got a friend and you're like okay

[1:18:21] these are the things that I want out of

[1:18:22] a relationship partner these are like no

[1:18:25] goes these are behaviors that cross the

[1:18:27] red line

[1:18:29] having you know a friend that knows what

[1:18:32] those are that can tell you when your

[1:18:34] boundaries are slipping can be really

[1:18:36] useful

[1:18:37] >> I was thinking of one particular context

[1:18:39] that I know and I'll keep it anonymous

[1:18:40] as well where there's five people that I

[1:18:43] know It is a family that I know of and

[1:18:44] they have five five kids

[1:18:47] >> and one of the family members was

[1:18:49] telling me that they are the only one

[1:18:51] that has maintained a bar boundary

[1:18:53] against one of the um older parents

[1:18:56] who's got a track record of like some of

[1:18:58] these dark personality traits. And she

[1:18:59] was telling me that because she has

[1:19:01] always maintained a boundary against the

[1:19:03] father who is the person that has dark

[1:19:05] personality traits. the father has

[1:19:08] almost left her alone and has gone for

[1:19:09] the other four siblings more so

[1:19:11] >> and that the other four siblings are

[1:19:12] suffering because they don't have an

[1:19:14] established boundary. Whereas what I'm

[1:19:15] saying here is it's interesting that

[1:19:17] someone who has a boundary seems to be

[1:19:19] prayed on less

[1:19:21] >> by the narcissist or person with

[1:19:23] Machavelian personality than those that

[1:19:26] haven't established one. And and if that

[1:19:28] is true, then what is it about the the

[1:19:30] the psychopathic or narcissistic person

[1:19:32] that is choosing easier targets or

[1:19:36] boundaryless targets?

[1:19:38] >> Is that does that hold as truth or or is

[1:19:40] that just anecdotal?

[1:19:41] >> So we do know from research that this is

[1:19:43] mostly in workplaces that workplaces

[1:19:45] that have kind of codes of fairness,

[1:19:49] people with high levels of these traits

[1:19:50] are less likely to, you know, keep a

[1:19:52] bunch of the bonus money for themselves

[1:19:54] instead of share it among their team

[1:19:56] fairly. So there's evidence of like

[1:19:58] having rules in place increases the

[1:20:00] likelihood that they will follow those

[1:20:02] rules relative to like a no holds bar

[1:20:04] kind of situation.

[1:20:06] >> There's also research on uh you know how

[1:20:09] people with high levels of psychopathic

[1:20:11] traits kind of choose who to

[1:20:16] who to prey upon essentially. And

[1:20:18] individuals who are not very assertive

[1:20:21] um tend to be more likely to, you know,

[1:20:25] kind of it's almost like they're like

[1:20:27] picking, you know, the weakest of the

[1:20:29] herd or something like that. So having

[1:20:32] asserting asserting some boundaries can

[1:20:34] help to, you know, not have that target

[1:20:39] on your back. I was thinking about a

[1:20:41] guest that I interviewed on this podcast

[1:20:42] that was telling me she had gone through

[1:20:44] domestic violence and she um was telling

[1:20:46] me about like the love bombing process

[1:20:48] as to how this individual had like

[1:20:50] broken down her boundaries and her

[1:20:52] confidence over time

[1:20:53] >> and then had isolated her from her

[1:20:56] friends and family wouldn't allow her to

[1:20:58] call her mom would give her a script

[1:21:00] when her mom called and those kinds of

[1:21:01] things. And one of the the remarkable

[1:21:03] things I observed is how over time

[1:21:06] they'd sort of broken down their

[1:21:07] confidence

[1:21:08] >> in order to be able to seemingly control

[1:21:10] them.

[1:21:10] >> Mhm.

[1:21:11] >> Is this a is this common practice?

[1:21:14] >> Uh yeah, in in domestic

[1:21:17] violence situation. You know, it kind of

[1:21:20] reminds me of the the kind of emerging

[1:21:22] research on gaslighting where someone

[1:21:25] would,

[1:21:27] you know, make make their partner kind

[1:21:29] of doubt their sense of reality. Uh kind

[1:21:32] of, you know, correcting them all the

[1:21:34] time like you're being too sensitive.

[1:21:36] You don't see the truth around you. And

[1:21:39] I think what's kind of so um insidious

[1:21:42] about that is that it makes you

[1:21:44] dependent on that other person. And then

[1:21:47] the isolation can really decrease the

[1:21:50] your ability to kind of like get out of

[1:21:52] it because you don't have someone else

[1:21:54] who can, you know, check your sense of

[1:21:56] reality that you really are seeing and

[1:21:58] feeling and remembering things that

[1:22:00] really did happen even though they're

[1:22:01] telling you that it didn't.

[1:22:03] >> What is gaslighting? Cuz we we throw

[1:22:05] around the term all the time. The minute

[1:22:07] someone lies, we say, "You're

[1:22:08] gaslighting me."

[1:22:09] >> Yeah. It's a a pattern of denying

[1:22:13] someone's version of reality. So you

[1:22:15] might tell people that, you know, they

[1:22:18] shouldn't be feeling the way that

[1:22:19] they're feeling. Things didn't happen

[1:22:21] like they are remembering they happened.

[1:22:24] That they can't trust their own, you

[1:22:26] know, sense of, you know, perception of

[1:22:30] reality. And so it can be incredibly

[1:22:33] kind of destabilizing and isolating. And

[1:22:35] what is worrisome about that is that we

[1:22:39] really need other people to help us see

[1:22:43] reality. And so if we we're only seeing

[1:22:45] it through like their lens of we can't

[1:22:49] be trusted, our own eyes, our own memory

[1:22:51] can't be trusted, we start to depend on

[1:22:54] their perception, which is essentially a

[1:22:57] a control tactic. And research does

[1:22:59] suggest that people with high levels of

[1:23:01] these traits endorse these tact. They

[1:23:05] like they don't see anything wrong with

[1:23:07] doing that to a romantic partner, which

[1:23:09] would probably follow um that they would

[1:23:11] be more likely to engage in it. A lot of

[1:23:13] romantic arguments would sound like

[1:23:15] gaslighting. I think within that

[1:23:16] definition of like, you know, let's go

[1:23:19] back to the cheating example. We said

[1:23:20] last Friday, I was doing something

[1:23:22] dodgy.

[1:23:23] >> You suspect I'm lying. So, you say to

[1:23:24] me, "No, you weren't, Steven. You

[1:23:26] weren't at the office till 3:00 a.m."

[1:23:27] And I go, "Yeah, yeah, I was. I was I

[1:23:29] was at the office. You don't know what

[1:23:31] you're talking about,

[1:23:32] >> Leanne. You weren't there. You You're

[1:23:34] making this up in your head."

[1:23:35] >> Yeah.

[1:23:36] >> Who was gaslighting who there? Cuz you

[1:23:37] said you denied my reality and now I'm

[1:23:39] denying your reality. Wait, but were you

[1:23:41] actually at the office?

[1:23:43] >> Does it matter? Like Jeremy, I'm trying

[1:23:45] to figure out if the beh which which one

[1:23:47] of us was gaslighting behavior there?

[1:23:49] >> Yeah. I think it would be like if if I

[1:23:52] say like, you know, I feel insecure. I

[1:23:54] feel threatened by like whatever you

[1:23:56] were doing on Friday and you're like,

[1:24:00] no, you don't. You don't like or you

[1:24:02] shouldn't feel that way. There there's

[1:24:04] no reason for you to feel that way.

[1:24:05] You're blowing things out of proportion.

[1:24:07] It's essentially like denying someone's

[1:24:10] actual my experience is that I feel

[1:24:12] threatened. And so it's like even if I

[1:24:14] might be wrong about that, that is my

[1:24:17] experience.

[1:24:17] >> So I could deny the facts theoretically.

[1:24:20] I could say no, at 2 a.m. I was,

[1:24:22] >> you know, falling asleep on my desk.

[1:24:24] >> I could maybe argue with the facts, but

[1:24:26] it's when you start arguing with someone

[1:24:28] else's perception of reality,

[1:24:29] >> yes,

[1:24:30] >> of their own subjective experience,

[1:24:31] that's when you stray into this

[1:24:33] gaslighting. Okay.

[1:24:35] In the example I gave earlier from my

[1:24:36] guest, that's exactly what happened to

[1:24:37] her. What he started to do is he started

[1:24:40] hiding her stuff in places. So he put

[1:24:42] her car keys in the fridge

[1:24:44] >> to make her feel like she'd gone crazy.

[1:24:45] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[1:24:46] >> Which is crazy. It's absolutely

[1:24:47] bonkers.

[1:24:48] >> Wild.

[1:24:49] >> Okay, that makes sense. So that was

[1:24:50] establishing clear boundaries. Really,

[1:24:52] what I was getting at is do they try and

[1:24:53] erode those boundaries or do they leave

[1:24:55] you alone?

[1:24:56] >> So they're likely to try to push on

[1:24:58] them, but less so than if you have no

[1:25:01] boundaries at all.

[1:25:01] >> Okay.

[1:25:02] >> Yep. So the next one is don't give them

[1:25:04] power over others. We've talked about

[1:25:07] kind of all of these different traits

[1:25:08] and that they you know machinism is

[1:25:11] actually kind of named after the pursuit

[1:25:13] of power. Psychopathy is associated with

[1:25:15] doineering people. Narcissism I'm better

[1:25:17] than you. I'm a born leader. All of

[1:25:19] these are kind of related to power.

[1:25:22] People with these traits tend to be very

[1:25:24] interested in having power over other

[1:25:27] people. But we know from research that

[1:25:29] this does not tend to go well for those

[1:25:32] individuals who are working underneath

[1:25:34] them. So at work for example, we know

[1:25:37] that people who are working under a boss

[1:25:39] with more psychopathic traits report

[1:25:41] being more stressed out. They also tend

[1:25:44] to be more likely to bring that stress

[1:25:45] home and that creates more family

[1:25:48] conflict. So it kind of spreads. It

[1:25:49] doesn't stay where it is. They tend to

[1:25:51] create uh division within teams. They

[1:25:55] also tend to increase the likelihood of

[1:25:57] turnover intentions. So, you know, if

[1:26:00] you're working for a boss with these

[1:26:02] traits, you're like, I got to get the

[1:26:03] hell out of here. So, you're you're

[1:26:05] churning through staff, right? So,

[1:26:08] giving them power over others is not a

[1:26:12] great way to to kind of yeah to deal

[1:26:16] with them. So, you don't want to give

[1:26:18] them power over others even when they

[1:26:20] want it, but there's other things that

[1:26:22] you can give them that they do want. And

[1:26:23] this is essentially like negotiating

[1:26:25] 101, right? So like you can look for

[1:26:29] win-wins when you're negotiating with

[1:26:31] them. Recognizing that what they

[1:26:34] consider motivation to get to this

[1:26:37] win-win might not be what you consider

[1:26:39] to be motivation to get to this win-win.

[1:26:41] So imagine that like you've got this um

[1:26:44] this employee who is bullying his

[1:26:46] subordinates and you're like you really

[1:26:49] need to treat your team better because

[1:26:52] they are so stressed out and they uh you

[1:26:55] know are going home from work and

[1:26:56] they're crying to their spouses and you

[1:26:58] know they're bringing it home and

[1:27:00] they're they're getting sick because of

[1:27:01] this.

[1:27:03] You're trying to make them feel

[1:27:05] compassion for other people to get them

[1:27:07] to behave better

[1:27:10] >> toward their team. That's not motivating

[1:27:12] to them, right? It might be motivating

[1:27:14] to other people, but people who with

[1:27:17] high levels of these traits, right, were

[1:27:19] callous, not concerned about other

[1:27:21] people. However,

[1:27:23] that doesn't mean that they can't do

[1:27:25] something kind or helpful, right? They

[1:27:27] might just do it for a different reason.

[1:27:28] So if you know that the team is

[1:27:30] suffering under this person's current

[1:27:33] like bullying management style, you

[1:27:35] could say, you know, you've got this,

[1:27:37] you know, sales bonus that's coming up,

[1:27:39] but your team is so stressed out that

[1:27:41] you're not going to meet that target and

[1:27:42] you're not going to get your your bonus,

[1:27:45] right? You need to treat your your team

[1:27:48] differently. Money, they like money.

[1:27:51] [laughter] They like power. They like

[1:27:53] status. And so it's not that they can't

[1:27:56] behave better. is that they might do it

[1:27:57] for a different reason.

[1:27:59] >> So trying to understand what motivates

[1:28:01] them.

[1:28:01] >> Yeah.

[1:28:02] >> And trying to figure out how you can use

[1:28:04] that. The next one is use the carrot,

[1:28:06] not the stick. So we've talked about

[1:28:07] this a little bit where people

[1:28:09] particularly with high levels of

[1:28:10] psychopathy very reward sensitive but

[1:28:14] not very punishment sensitive. So you

[1:28:18] can try to punish them but literally

[1:28:21] their brains don't process punishment in

[1:28:22] the same way. they don't develop that

[1:28:24] kind of link between if I do this

[1:28:26] behavior then fear of punishment again.

[1:28:29] So like they're more likely to repeat it

[1:28:31] than people with low levels of these

[1:28:33] traits. So punishment, you know, there

[1:28:35] there's a place for it I suppose, but

[1:28:37] it's like it's not going to be as

[1:28:39] effective with these personalities in

[1:28:41] particular. And I think what's terrible,

[1:28:43] what we are losing a huge opportunity on

[1:28:46] is that we don't use the carrot instead

[1:28:49] when the carrot is so powerful. So

[1:28:51] sometimes people are like, "They're a

[1:28:53] bad person. I'm not going to reward

[1:28:55] anything that they do." Like, I'm not

[1:28:56] going to give them any kind of positive

[1:28:58] feedback because I think they're

[1:29:00] terrible, right? But if they do

[1:29:03] something kind or honest or helpful, oh

[1:29:07] my god, reward them. Reward them not

[1:29:09] with power over others, but maybe with

[1:29:11] like a bonus at work, with like a job

[1:29:14] title, because they really care about

[1:29:15] status. That's a um a reward that they

[1:29:19] will really like. and you are going to

[1:29:21] increase the likelihood that you get

[1:29:22] more of that behavior in the future.

[1:29:24] >> I think there'll be some people

[1:29:25] listening right now that are thinking,

[1:29:27] shouldn't you just fire these people?

[1:29:28] Shouldn't you get all of these people

[1:29:29] out of your life if they've got sadism,

[1:29:31] narcissism, machavellianism,

[1:29:35] psychopathy,

[1:29:36] >> psychopathy? Yeah,

[1:29:37] >> psychopathy. Um, shouldn't you just

[1:29:38] throw them out your life?

[1:29:40] >> Yeah. I think given that there are, you

[1:29:43] know, a reasonable reasonably sized

[1:29:46] minority of the population has some

[1:29:49] elevated level of these traits, you're

[1:29:51] going to be chucking a you're going to

[1:29:52] be chucking a lot of people, right? And

[1:29:54] they also might genuinely have some like

[1:29:57] really useful skills that just, you

[1:30:00] know, you want in your company. You just

[1:30:02] need to learn how to manage these this

[1:30:05] personality trait. And so I think even

[1:30:08] if you know you have kind of a low

[1:30:09] tolerance for these personality traits,

[1:30:12] you're not going to be able to

[1:30:12] completely avoid them at all times. It

[1:30:15] might not be your decision to chuck them

[1:30:17] out of the company.

[1:30:18] >> A sibling or something.

[1:30:19] >> Yeah, exactly. It might be a person that

[1:30:22] you like you want to have a relationship

[1:30:24] with them even if that relationship is

[1:30:26] not perfect. You know, maybe it's a

[1:30:29] brother-in-law, right? and you're like,

[1:30:30] he's such a pain in the ass, but I see

[1:30:31] him like twice a year and I don't want

[1:30:33] to cut him out cuz that means I don't

[1:30:35] get to see my sister anymore and I love

[1:30:37] my sister and I want to support my

[1:30:38] sister. And so I think there's just like

[1:30:40] >> the the you know stay or go question is

[1:30:44] just so complicated and there's so many

[1:30:46] reasons why you might not be able to do

[1:30:48] that. And so we need to learn the skills

[1:30:50] to manage interactions with these people

[1:30:53] as well. Next one is emphasize your

[1:30:55] common identity. People with high levels

[1:30:58] of narcissism are not particularly

[1:31:00] interested in like kind of being fair to

[1:31:03] you or like you know being kind to you

[1:31:07] but they are interested in loyalty.

[1:31:10] There's these studies that are really

[1:31:12] fascinating where they just tell people

[1:31:14] like oh you guys have the same birthday

[1:31:17] or you have the same fingerprint type

[1:31:19] which I don't even think is a thing. Is

[1:31:21] that a thing anyway? But people think we

[1:31:23] have some sort of commonality. Then

[1:31:26] people are people with high levels of

[1:31:28] narcissism

[1:31:29] get less angry when you give them

[1:31:31] negative feedback if they think you've

[1:31:33] got something in common with them. So if

[1:31:35] you start your conversation with, you

[1:31:38] know, maybe that that uncle at

[1:31:39] Thanksgiving who's like always combative

[1:31:41] and talks about himself all the time and

[1:31:43] you're like, "Oh, you know, we went to

[1:31:44] the same university. We root for the

[1:31:46] same football team." Whatever it is, you

[1:31:48] start with what you have in common.

[1:31:50] You're like, "Okay, we are one, right?"

[1:31:52] And then if you need to say, "You know

[1:31:54] what? you really need to pick up your

[1:31:56] game and help him with the care of

[1:31:58] grandma,

[1:31:59] >> then he might be more willing to listen

[1:32:01] to that as opposed to just like getting

[1:32:03] negative feedback. You know, people with

[1:32:05] high levels of narcissism don't like

[1:32:06] that. Um, so emphasizing your common

[1:32:08] identity can help to tamp that down. I'd

[1:32:11] sat here with Tally Sherott who's this

[1:32:12] neuroscientist and she'd looked at the

[1:32:14] subject of disagreement quite

[1:32:16] extensively and she'd put people in

[1:32:17] these brain scanners and basically got

[1:32:20] them to disagree with each other at some

[1:32:21] point and looked at what happened in

[1:32:23] their brain and what she told me she

[1:32:25] observed is essentially and I'm you know

[1:32:27] I'm generalizing wildly here so please

[1:32:29] do fact check me on the screen she

[1:32:32] basically observed that the brain

[1:32:33] changed when someone disagreed with you

[1:32:35] and I was on a um phone call the other

[1:32:38] day with about 10 different people from

[1:32:41] a company we're doing a deal with and I

[1:32:43] just observed that one person would

[1:32:46] often open up their rebuttal when they

[1:32:49] felt had a difference of opinion with

[1:32:51] the phrase I completely disagree

[1:32:53] >> and then they would make their point and

[1:32:55] so funnily enough I got straight off the

[1:32:57] call even though I'd written about this

[1:32:58] previously I got straight off the call

[1:33:00] and like did did a bit of research as to

[1:33:03] whether I

[1:33:05] >> I just find that to be quite ineffective

[1:33:08] behavior or if there's research around

[1:33:11] it. And what I found is it says yes,

[1:33:15] there is extensive research across

[1:33:17] social psychology and behavioral

[1:33:19] economics and linguistics showing that

[1:33:21] opening a counterargument or a rebuttal

[1:33:23] with explicit adversarial phrasing like

[1:33:25] I disagree actively will hinder your

[1:33:27] ability to persuade somebody. When you

[1:33:29] start a rebuttal with I disagree,

[1:33:30] several psychological mechanisms trigger

[1:33:32] in the other person's brain and that

[1:33:34] goes into the detail about what's going

[1:33:36] on in their brain. I just it seems so

[1:33:38] somewhat linked to what you're saying

[1:33:39] there about like how you keep the other

[1:33:40] person receptive.

[1:33:41] >> Mhm. Totally. Okay. So, this reminds me

[1:33:44] of another study on I think it's like

[1:33:45] really doineering bosses. If you need to

[1:33:49] give them negative feedback like I don't

[1:33:52] know say you you hate the way that we're

[1:33:54] running this particular process. You

[1:33:56] these three forms should be one form

[1:33:57] like why are we spending so much this is

[1:34:00] like you know the bane of office

[1:34:01] existence.

[1:34:03] If you say

[1:34:05] this is so stupid, you need to change

[1:34:08] the way that we're doing, you know, like

[1:34:09] kind of coming in hot. Particularly

[1:34:12] people with high levels of narcissistic

[1:34:14] traits are like we don't like this kind

[1:34:16] of, you know, ego threat. You're threat,

[1:34:18] you're criticizing me. You're giving me

[1:34:20] negative feedback. I'm just like

[1:34:21] shutting it down, right? I'm not I don't

[1:34:23] even hear what you're saying. Whereas,

[1:34:25] if you phrase it as a question, like,

[1:34:27] what do you think if we turn these three

[1:34:28] forms into one form? M

[1:34:31] >> phrasing it as a question just kind of

[1:34:33] like makes it softer and makes them more

[1:34:36] willing to just hear it like maybe you

[1:34:38] you ultimately won't get to that one

[1:34:39] form but you'll at least get a little

[1:34:42] bit further in that conversation. I

[1:34:45] think that's true for you know it's true

[1:34:46] for everybody but especially when it

[1:34:49] comes to people um who are really

[1:34:51] doineering which these personalities

[1:34:53] tend to be.

[1:34:55] >> Okay. So like you kind of cocreate the

[1:34:58] solution really you know. Okay.

[1:35:00] Interesting.

[1:35:01] >> Yeah.

[1:35:01] >> Okay.

[1:35:02] >> Become a detective and notice their

[1:35:04] cues. So, we know that they tend to lie

[1:35:07] a lot. Being manipulative, telling lies

[1:35:09] is kind of part of their MMO. That's

[1:35:11] what all these traits share. And so,

[1:35:13] being able to identify, know what those

[1:35:16] cues of deception are, know that we're

[1:35:18] not looking for gaze aversion. We're not

[1:35:20] looking for fidgeting. We're looking for

[1:35:22] those lack of verifiable details. We're

[1:35:24] looking for relatively few details.

[1:35:26] We're looking for signs of cognitive

[1:35:28] strain. and maybe like following up,

[1:35:31] right? If we start to see some of those

[1:35:32] red flags and finally

[1:35:35] avoid face-to-face negotiations. So,

[1:35:38] this is like a really simple move that

[1:35:40] can be really helpful. So, some research

[1:35:43] out of same university as me, University

[1:35:45] of British Columbia, um had people with

[1:35:48] various levels of these dark traits

[1:35:52] engage in a negotiation. It was just

[1:35:53] over like the price of concert tickets.

[1:35:55] >> Mhm. But what they found is that

[1:35:58] whenever those negotiations occurred

[1:36:01] face to face, the person with the high

[1:36:03] level of psychopathic traits or or any

[1:36:06] of these dark traits, they got a really

[1:36:09] good deal. Like they were able to

[1:36:10] command a whole bunch of money for these

[1:36:12] concert tickets. Whereas if they engage

[1:36:14] in this negotiation over text,

[1:36:18] that wasn't the case. So if you need to

[1:36:22] negotiate with someone,

[1:36:24] these dark traits can be like really

[1:36:27] doineering, really kind of, you know,

[1:36:29] superficially charming sometimes in

[1:36:31] person and then you can kind of like let

[1:36:33] your guard down and they're going to

[1:36:34] take advantage of you. If you reduce

[1:36:37] them to words on the page, they lose

[1:36:39] some of that like charisma, right? But

[1:36:42] there's also other like practical

[1:36:43] reasons like, you know, you've got a

[1:36:45] written version of what was agreed upon.

[1:36:47] like you can't gaslight me and tell me,

[1:36:49] you know, I'm misremembering what we

[1:36:51] agreed upon later. I've got a written

[1:36:52] version here. I've got some time

[1:36:55] >> to think about how I want to respond.

[1:36:58] Yeah, exactly.

[1:36:59] >> And, you know, if if violence is a

[1:37:01] concern, say you're talking about this

[1:37:03] is a a domestic violence situation. You

[1:37:06] got to get out of the house. you got to

[1:37:08] >> maybe negotiate, you know, some sort of

[1:37:10] settlement um in a divorce or something

[1:37:14] like being face to face can be

[1:37:18] dangerous, right? It literally puts some

[1:37:21] physical distance between yourself and

[1:37:22] that other person if violence is a

[1:37:24] concern. So there's all kinds of

[1:37:26] potential upsides to like if you got to

[1:37:29] negotiate like pop it into text, put it

[1:37:33] into the chat as opposed to sitting down

[1:37:36] face to face.

[1:37:37] >> I was thinking about all the things that

[1:37:38] are linked to just having a bit more

[1:37:40] time but also like the medium of text.

[1:37:42] And one of the things that came to mind

[1:37:43] is if someone does have those dark

[1:37:45] personality traits,

[1:37:46] >> they are probably more cautious about

[1:37:48] what they say if it's permanent and it's

[1:37:50] written. So like if I was sending you an

[1:37:52] email, I might say something to you in

[1:37:54] person, but if would I write that same

[1:37:55] thing on an email.

[1:37:57] >> Uh and the other one is in written form,

[1:37:59] you you as the person that's receiving

[1:38:02] the uh being on the receiving end, you

[1:38:04] have time to show other people and get

[1:38:07] another perspective. Even if it's like

[1:38:08] putting it into AI or asking Google or

[1:38:10] Yeah.

[1:38:11] >> checking if the facts are right or

[1:38:12] asking your like husband or partner if

[1:38:14] this is appropriate behavior.

[1:38:15] >> Totally. And like involving other people

[1:38:19] can be so helpful. So research suggests

[1:38:21] that whenever we discuss with other

[1:38:24] people before making a a truth lie

[1:38:26] judgment about someone else's

[1:38:28] statements, we tend to be more accurate.

[1:38:30] Whenever we're making judgments about

[1:38:32] someone's personality, if we're talking

[1:38:34] as a group, we tend to be more accurate.

[1:38:36] Another study that Derk Kelner did, he

[1:38:39] talked to a bunch of girls in a sorority

[1:38:43] and asked them who gets talked about the

[1:38:46] most like in gossip and uh also had

[1:38:49] people rate their personality. It was

[1:38:51] the Machavellian

[1:38:54] the more Machavevelian girls who were

[1:38:56] talked about the most.

[1:38:58] >> Talked about positively or negative.

[1:38:59] >> Negatively. Okay. Yeah. And so, you

[1:39:01] know, people we sometimes hear about

[1:39:03] like whisper networks too, like stay

[1:39:05] away from that guy at work or whatever.

[1:39:07] So, I would, you know, caution just

[1:39:10] believing everything you hear in the

[1:39:12] rumor mill. But sometimes people, you

[1:39:14] know, spread information about this was

[1:39:16] my experience with this person. And we

[1:39:18] can learn from other people's experience

[1:39:21] before having to go through it ourselves

[1:39:23] if we pay attention.

[1:39:26] And you've got three final cards down

[1:39:27] there which I think are

[1:39:29] >> these are three common mistakes people

[1:39:31] make when dealing with dark

[1:39:33] personalities.

[1:39:35] >> So the first one is it's just believing

[1:39:37] there's nothing you can do. So you know

[1:39:40] we've talked about how some of our our

[1:39:42] go-to responses when people hurt us like

[1:39:46] trying to make them feel badly trying to

[1:39:48] make them apologize to us like trying to

[1:39:50] punish them don't work so well. But

[1:39:53] we've also talked about all of the

[1:39:55] things you can do, right? So, we don't

[1:39:59] need to feel completely helpless.

[1:40:01] Another is assuming they have the same

[1:40:03] inner experience as you. You know, when

[1:40:06] we're trying to figure out what

[1:40:06] motivates people, again, we talked about

[1:40:08] this with respect to negotiation, right?

[1:40:11] Like what motivates you to do a thing

[1:40:12] might not be the same thing that

[1:40:13] motivates me to do a thing. I need to

[1:40:15] try to get into their head, figure out

[1:40:17] what their goals are, what would be

[1:40:19] motivating to change their behavior in

[1:40:20] this situation and try to, you know,

[1:40:22] frame our interaction in that way. Try

[1:40:24] to convince them to change their

[1:40:25] behavior for that reason. Not because I

[1:40:27] think they should or not because I would

[1:40:30] feel guilty if I did what they did,

[1:40:32] right?

[1:40:34] But lastly, you know, is thinking you

[1:40:36] can change them. So, if your ultimate

[1:40:38] goal is like, I'm going to stick around

[1:40:40] and they're going to be kind and honest

[1:40:44] and they're going to be super

[1:40:45] conscientious and helpful all the time.

[1:40:47] They're never going to break any rules.

[1:40:49] Like, I think we also need to be kind of

[1:40:51] cleareyed about the likelihood of that

[1:40:54] happening. M

[1:40:55] >> um and so instead we need to kind of

[1:40:57] deploy some of these strategies for

[1:41:00] making our day-to-day interactions a

[1:41:02] little more positive as opposed to just

[1:41:05] hoping that someday they're going to

[1:41:07] wake up, you know, with a different

[1:41:09] personality.

[1:41:10] >> What is the the most important thing we

[1:41:13] haven't talked about that we should have

[1:41:14] talked about as it relates to your work?

[1:41:16] And again, zooming in on the people that

[1:41:17] are listening that might benefit them in

[1:41:19] their lives.

[1:41:20] >> I think it's like a matter of numbers.

[1:41:23] [laughter]

[1:41:24] So, you know, we've talked about

[1:41:27] the, you know, 10% of people would

[1:41:29] generally agree with items that we use

[1:41:31] to measure these traits. That means that

[1:41:34] 90% of people would generally not agree,

[1:41:37] right? So, I want people to keep into

[1:41:39] perspective that like 90% of people,

[1:41:42] right, are good and kind and honest and

[1:41:45] not breaking the rules. We've got this

[1:41:47] 10%, right, that's not to say that 10%

[1:41:51] is causing little harm. In fact, they're

[1:41:52] causing hugely outsized harm. Right? So

[1:41:55] like with respect to psychopathy, that's

[1:41:58] about 1% of the population. They have

[1:42:00] clinical levels of it.

[1:42:03] Offenders with clinical levels of

[1:42:04] psychopathy account for about 50% of all

[1:42:07] serious crime. So these people are like

[1:42:09] doing incredibly outsiz harm. And we

[1:42:11] also feel that in our lives too, right?

[1:42:13] [clears throat] not necessarily in

[1:42:15] criminal wrap sheets maybe, but we've

[1:42:17] got like one person who's like

[1:42:19] constantly making things hard because of

[1:42:22] these traits. They're they're causing

[1:42:24] strife at work. They're um abusing

[1:42:26] people at home. And so if we can learn

[1:42:29] to mitigate the damage from just this

[1:42:32] small relatively small group of people,

[1:42:36] then we can dramatically improve our

[1:42:39] lives, um our workplaces, our

[1:42:41] interactions dayto-day. We have a

[1:42:44] closing tradition on this podcast where

[1:42:45] the last guest leaves a question for the

[1:42:46] next guest, not knowing who they're

[1:42:47] leaving it for.

[1:42:48] >> Okay.

[1:42:48] >> And the question that's been left for

[1:42:50] you is somewhat relevant. I like I like

[1:42:52] that you got this one is um what is one

[1:42:56] great lie we've all been told?

[1:43:02] >> I think one great lie we've all been

[1:43:04] told is that to be successful, you have

[1:43:07] to be in it for number one. and you need

[1:43:09] to, you know, exemplify some of these

[1:43:13] traits in order to get that promotion,

[1:43:16] to get that raise, to run that company

[1:43:19] that's worth millions of dollars. And,

[1:43:22] you know, even I went searching for

[1:43:24] evidence for that to show that people

[1:43:27] with high levels of psychopathy could

[1:43:29] use their kind of callous, cunning, you

[1:43:31] know, fearlessness in order to make more

[1:43:33] money as hedge fund managers. And I

[1:43:34] found the opposite. And so I think even

[1:43:37] in those areas where we think these

[1:43:40] traits lead to success, they fall short.

[1:43:43] And really

[1:43:47] taking other people with us and thinking

[1:43:49] about success as you know

[1:43:53] prestige and like respect from other

[1:43:55] people, care and concern about us from

[1:43:58] other people is a much truer version of

[1:44:01] success.

[1:44:02] >> Leanne, thank you so much. Thank you for

[1:44:04] writing a book that is incredibly

[1:44:06] illuminating in a way that is um

[1:44:08] researchbased whilst also being just

[1:44:11] unbelievably engaging. And I think these

[1:44:13] subjects are so pertinent to everybody

[1:44:15] listening. And I I know that they're

[1:44:17] going to love this conversation because

[1:44:19] much like you were when you started your

[1:44:21] career, we're all just trying to figure

[1:44:22] out the ultimate barrier and opportunity

[1:44:24] that all sits in front of us and that's

[1:44:26] just other people. Mhm.

[1:44:27] >> And again, as you said on one of the

[1:44:28] cards, but you articulated really nicely

[1:44:30] earlier on, we kind of go through the

[1:44:32] world thinking that everyone else's

[1:44:33] internal experience is a mirror of ours.

[1:44:35] >> Yeah.

[1:44:36] >> And it's very easy to get frustrated or

[1:44:38] to feel um like you're the problem or

[1:44:41] you're inadequate if that's the lens

[1:44:42] that you take to life. And I think

[1:44:44] through your research, you do exactly

[1:44:45] what you said, which is in a weird way,

[1:44:48] you do make us more empathetic and maybe

[1:44:50] more optimistic and less cynical about

[1:44:51] the nature of human experience. And so

[1:44:53] this is a wonderful, wonderful book for

[1:44:54] anyone that wants more information. I'm

[1:44:56] going to link it below. Poisonous

[1:44:57] people, how to resist them and improve

[1:44:59] your life. But also, it might be a good

[1:45:01] opportunity to buy this book for someone

[1:45:03] else who you know is dealing with a

[1:45:05] slightly poisonous person. Where do

[1:45:07] people go to to support your work and to

[1:45:09] find more from you?

[1:45:11] >> Um, they can find that book, you know,

[1:45:13] wherever books are sold. They can also

[1:45:15] find me on Instagram, Lean Tenbrank, on

[1:45:18] all the socials, Tik Tok, on YouTube.

[1:45:21] and uh I post little things about

[1:45:23] studies and findings that I think are

[1:45:25] interesting and hopefully they'll find

[1:45:27] it interesting too.

[1:45:28] >> Thank you so much.

[1:45:29] >> Thank you, Stephen. This has been so

[1:45:30] wonderful.

[1:45:31] >> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm

[1:45:33] where they know exactly what video you

[1:45:35] would like to watch next based on AI and

[1:45:38] all of your viewing behavior. And the

[1:45:39] algorithm says that this video is the

[1:45:42] perfect video for you. It's different

[1:45:44] for everybody looking right now. Check

[1:45:46] this video out and I bet you you might

[1:45:48] love

The Diary of a CEO
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