Transcript
[0:00] Stress is really our biggest health
[0:02] threat in this country and one that we
[0:04] just have not addressed enough. Our
[0:06] stress response was designed to help us
[0:08] survive. If you're out in the wild and
[0:10] something's chasing you, you turn it on.
[0:12] The problem is that in our lives, people
[0:15] are constantly turning on the stress
[0:16] response chronically. Literally imagine
[0:18] people walking around with the stress
[0:20] response turned on in the dial 10
[0:22] position every day over and over again.
[0:24] And that is where we see it become
[0:26] really, really damaging.
[0:28] >> Board-certified cardiologist, chief
[0:30] medical correspondent for ABC News, and
[0:33] author of The Healing Power of
[0:34] Resilience, Dr. Tara Narula.
[0:37] >> The original father of stress research
[0:39] said there are like three phases when
[0:40] someone is under stress. The first was
[0:42] an alarm phase, oh my gosh, what's
[0:44] happening? The second is a state of sort
[0:46] of pushing against it or resisting the
[0:48] stress. And the last is exhaustion. You
[0:50] literally burn out because you just
[0:52] cannot fight anymore. And that's the
[0:54] [music] part where we see people get
[0:56] chronically sick from chronic stress.
[0:57] >> Have you seen any cases where people
[0:59] have really stepped into [music] belief
[1:00] in God and then you've seen incredible
[1:02] healings because they believed so much
[1:05] in the power of God?
[1:07] >> I'm so glad you asked that because I do
[1:09] feel like this is another area that we
[1:11] don't talk about a lot in medicine. Um
[1:16] >> Of all the people that come into your
[1:17] office, all your patients, what is the
[1:20] number one reason they all come in your
[1:21] office and they all have a challenge or
[1:23] a problem they're trying to overcome?
[1:24] What is that?
[1:26] >> Well, people obviously come to my office
[1:27] because I'm a cardiologist. They're
[1:29] concerned with their risk of
[1:30] cardiovascular disease, blood pressure,
[1:32] cholesterol, maybe they've had a heart
[1:34] attack or a stroke or been diagnosed
[1:35] with heart failure. But usually that's
[1:38] actually not what's top of mind for
[1:40] them. And that's what was really
[1:41] eye-opening for me is that practicing
[1:43] year after year, day after day, when I
[1:45] would open the door and walk in and say,
[1:48] "How are you?" which is always my first
[1:50] question to every patient, the answer I
[1:52] would get almost universally was, "I am
[1:54] stressed. I am depressed. I am anxious.
[1:58] I'm overwhelmed by everything that's
[1:59] happening in my life. So, here you have
[2:02] a cardiologist, but my office space was
[2:05] being filled with people who weren't
[2:06] talking about what their blood pressure
[2:08] numbers were at home, or what their
[2:10] cholesterol numbers were, or if they
[2:12] even had chest pain. They were telling
[2:14] me about how they were feeling up here
[2:16] and what was happening to them mentally
[2:19] and socially and in terms of stress, the
[2:21] amount that people are carrying on a
[2:23] daily basis. And it's overwhelming. And
[2:26] for many people just having that space
[2:28] to unload and just say, "I'm not doing
[2:32] okay." Many of them would cry or kind of
[2:36] to have a safe space where they could be
[2:37] vulnerable and talk about things that
[2:38] they don't talk about with anyone is
[2:42] probably one of the most meaningful
[2:43] things for me as as a doctor to know
[2:45] that I'm able to provide that. And just
[2:48] being able to listen, just being a
[2:50] listener for people. Um there was so
[2:53] much value there and I saw it I saw it
[2:56] when people would cry and say, "Thank
[2:57] you so much for letting me tell you this
[3:01] and for listening." I thank you for
[3:03] that, not for thanks for getting my
[3:05] blood pressure less than 130 over 80 or,
[3:08] you know, for sending me for that scan.
[3:10] And so, it just became so apparent to me
[3:12] in my cardiology practice that we were
[3:13] really missing the boat in terms of what
[3:16] people really need, which is a medical
[3:19] community and a practice that focuses on
[3:21] people's mental and psychological
[3:23] well-being.
[3:24] >> Gosh, that's so interesting.
[3:25] >> These worlds are totally separated and
[3:27] it's a big, [clears throat] big problem.
[3:29] >> As a cardiologist then, when you see
[3:31] people coming to your office,
[3:33] do you feel like it is the disease or
[3:36] the pain that is causing them stress and
[3:39] anxiety, or stress and anxiety that is
[3:42] causing them heart pain, chest pain, or
[3:45] physical disease?
[3:46] >> I think it's definitely both. So,
[3:48] certainly there are people who have had
[3:50] something really bad happen to them and
[3:51] they aren't feeling well and that causes
[3:54] them stress. On the other hand, there
[3:56] there is stressful situations in their
[3:58] lives that may be giving them chest pain
[4:01] or difficulty in the physical aspect.
[4:04] And so it really is this bridge and I
[4:06] think that's what's really important for
[4:08] people to recognize is so often we say
[4:10] [clears throat] there is a mind-body
[4:11] connection. We toss it out there, but we
[4:13] haven't done a great job explaining to
[4:14] people how intricately tied what happens
[4:18] up here is to here and what your body
[4:20] how intricately tied your body is to
[4:22] your mental well-being. It's like this
[4:24] circle, this cycle and you have to fix
[4:26] both. You have to fix
[4:28] the mental well-being in order to
[4:30] address the physical. So, I can't have
[4:32] patients buy in to taking their
[4:34] medications or even going for a test if
[4:36] they're suffering and they don't want to
[4:38] leave the house because they're
[4:39] depressed or they're dealing with
[4:41] financial issues or their son has a drug
[4:44] addiction or their husband is ill. They
[4:46] can't take care of their own needs
[4:49] because they're drowning under the
[4:50] weight of everything else that's
[4:52] happening in our in their life and we
[4:53] are just not built right now as a
[4:55] medical institution to tailor our care
[4:59] to mental well-being.
[5:01] >> Have you seen patients come into your
[5:03] office who have high blood pressure or
[5:05] high levels of anxiety and stress in the
[5:07] beginning
[5:08] then talk to you and kind of unload and
[5:10] maybe cry or just feel like they have a
[5:12] safe place to be seen, heard and valued?
[5:15] Do you see their blood pressure come
[5:16] down just from like a 30 to 60 minute
[5:18] conversation?
[5:19] >> You definitely can. I mean, we usually
[5:20] take the blood pressure more than once
[5:22] anyway for that reason. People come in
[5:24] and they're definitely very nervous
[5:25] initially and so their blood pressure
[5:26] might be really high. We always take it
[5:28] again, but I think the biggest thing for
[5:30] me is number one providing a space for
[5:32] people to open up and talk about. Number
[5:35] two is validating and normalizing that
[5:37] it's okay to not be okay. It's amazing
[5:40] the response that people will give me in
[5:43] just saying, "Thank you for telling me
[5:44] it's okay that I don't feel great." And
[5:46] then the third is I really focus on
[5:49] telling people to seek therapy. So here
[5:52] you have a cardiologist who's pushing
[5:54] therapy with so many of my patients and
[5:57] again many of them say, "Wow, I didn't
[5:59] think that you would be telling me to
[6:01] see a therapist."
[6:03] Um and that's really where that piece is
[6:05] that's so important that in order for me
[6:07] to address their heart health and their
[6:09] cardiovascular well-being
[6:11] I have to get them to buy into
[6:13] addressing their mental well-being.
[6:15] >> And so often I will tell them, "You
[6:17] don't need to see a therapist because
[6:19] you have a diagnosis of depression or
[6:21] anxiety. You can just see a therapist to
[6:23] have a place to go once a week or once a
[6:25] month to just talk.
[6:27] >> Yeah.
[6:28] >> To just download. There's so much
[6:30] relaxation and dialing down of the
[6:32] stress response that comes from just
[6:34] communicating and verbalizing how you're
[6:36] feeling. So that alone, having someone
[6:38] in your corner who's non-judgmental, can
[6:41] do wonders for just helping you
[6:43] decompress and take the stress level
[6:45] down.
[6:46] >> As a cardiologist, are you able to
[6:47] prescribe therapy? Like can you write a
[6:49] script and say, "Go to a therapist"?
[6:51] >> I can refer people to therapists. The
[6:54] problem is, as you know, we have a
[6:56] crisis in this country. We don't have
[6:57] enough mental health practitioners and
[7:00] so many times my patients will say, "I
[7:02] can't find a therapist. The waiting list
[7:04] is like 2 months long. They want to
[7:05] charge thousands of dollars. I can't
[7:07] afford it." So again, it's just
[7:09] frustrating because this is such an
[7:11] important area, not just for, as I
[7:13] talked about, the healing power and
[7:15] dealing with it.
[7:16] >> Yeah.
[7:17] >> But it's prevention. So in my world of
[7:19] cardiology, we want to prevent. We
[7:21] That's the key. Preventing someone from
[7:23] having a heart attack or a stroke by
[7:24] controlling all these risk factors. So
[7:26] if we deal with the stress and the
[7:28] mental well-being, we're actually
[7:30] helping prevent disease in addition to
[7:32] helping people heal from disease.
[7:34] >> What are the main causes of a heart
[7:36] attack or a stroke?
[7:38] >> So there many risk factors, um but
[7:40] typically for cardiovascular disease, we
[7:42] kind of dial it down to maybe eight or
[7:44] nine different things that range from
[7:46] your age to your family history, which
[7:49] is really important to know, to whether
[7:51] you have high blood pressure,
[7:52] cholesterol, diabetes, smoking, your
[7:54] weight, exercise, sleep, and then stress
[7:57] and mental health are a big one. So, in
[7:59] all of my patient encounters, I ask,
[8:01] "What is your stress level? Do you have
[8:03] any diagnosis of depression, anxiety,
[8:06] PTSD?" Um because it's important to
[8:08] recognize that.
[8:09] >> Have you ever seen a patient come in who
[8:11] had like great-looking health? They were
[8:13] super healthy, they had a six-pack, they
[8:15] were shredded, or they were they looked
[8:17] very healthy physically, but they still
[8:20] had a heart attack or a stroke because
[8:22] of stress and their emotional state?
[8:24] >> So, for example, there is something
[8:26] called a stress-induced heart attack, a
[8:29] real entity in cardiology that not many
[8:32] people know about.
[8:33] >> And you can be super healthy physically.
[8:34] >> Yes, your arteries actually are
[8:36] relatively healthy, but you release this
[8:39] massive outflow of hormones like
[8:42] epinephrine and adrenaline and cortisol,
[8:44] and all of this hormonal surge stuns the
[8:47] heart. And so, we call it takotsubo
[8:50] cardiomyopathy. Takotsubo is a Japanese
[8:52] octopus trap. So, when you look at the
[8:54] heart in these situations of
[8:55] stress-induced heart attack, it actually
[8:57] has this balloon appearance to it like
[8:59] this Japanese octopus trap, where only
[9:01] the bottom or the base of the heart is
[9:03] pumping. The rest of the whole kind of
[9:06] we call the apex or the tip of the heart
[9:07] is stunned and really just dilated and
[9:10] large and not working very well.
[9:12] >> A block is just not pushing
[9:13] >> Only Yeah, it's sort of like a dilated
[9:16] muscular part the out part outer part of
[9:18] the heart that's not really contracting.
[9:20] It's not contracting well. Only the base
[9:21] of the heart's contracting. So, a lot of
[9:23] people can develop heart failure and
[9:24] arrhythmias. Some people can die from
[9:25] this stress-induced heart attack. Most
[9:27] people will recover. And interestingly,
[9:30] we see it predominantly in older women.
[9:32] So, again, this is a phenomenon where
[9:35] somehow women seem more vulnerable to
[9:38] this stress. And it doesn't have to be a
[9:40] negative stress. We see this sometimes
[9:42] even with people who win the lottery or
[9:44] something that's really positive and
[9:45] that's the same massive surge of those
[9:48] hormones. And that's why it's so
[9:49] important for people to understand these
[9:51] aren't just concepts we say, "Oh, stress
[9:53] is bad." Like literally stress can cause
[9:55] a heart attack. Um and so this entity of
[9:59] stress-induced heart attack is one where
[10:01] the actual arteries to the heart look
[10:02] relatively healthy. But then there are
[10:04] people who have stress-induced heart
[10:05] attacks who have pla- plaque or
[10:08] blockages in their arteries and the
[10:09] stress itself causes that plaque to
[10:10] rupture. And that can lead to a heart
[10:13] attack or stroke or an arrhythmia or
[10:16] sudden death. So stress is really, in my
[10:19] opinion, our biggest health threat in
[10:22] this country and one that we just have
[10:24] not addressed enough.
[10:26] >> It kind of sounds like if you have,
[10:29] you know, seven or eight of these other
[10:30] conditions that kind of build up in your
[10:33] body or in your heart,
[10:36] that it sounds like if you add stress to
[10:37] it, it could be the thing that finally
[10:39] like, I guess, breaks the camel's back,
[10:41] I guess. That is the thing that it's
[10:43] hard to come back from if you pile that
[10:45] on top of anything else as well.
[10:47] >> Yes, or even even in and of itself.
[10:49] >> Just by itself.
[10:50] >> Yes, and that's why it's so important
[10:52] for us to learn how to turn our stress
[10:55] response off because our stress response
[10:57] was designed to help us survive. It is
[11:00] an innate biological process. We see it
[11:03] in the animal kingdom. So that if you're
[11:05] out in the wild and something's chasing
[11:06] you, you turn it on. And you turn it on
[11:10] in order for your blood pressure to go
[11:11] up and your heart rate to go up and your
[11:12] breathing to go up so you can run and
[11:14] escape. At the same time, you turn off
[11:16] all the non-essential functions like
[11:18] digestion and growth and reproduction.
[11:20] So this beautifully designed system is
[11:22] help meant to help us survive
[11:25] in the wild. The problem is that in our
[11:28] lives here at Los Angeles and in my
[11:30] daily life in New York, people are
[11:32] constantly turning on the stress
[11:33] response chronically, day after day,
[11:36] hour after hour, for every single
[11:38] insult. They get a phone call that they
[11:40] don't like. Their kid has a problem at
[11:42] school and it makes them upset. They
[11:44] have an argument with their co-worker.
[11:46] And so you imagine you literally imagine
[11:48] people walking around with the stress
[11:49] response turned on and the dial 10
[11:52] position every day over and over again.
[11:54] And that is where we see it become
[11:56] really, really damaging. And so actually
[11:59] the father of modern stress research,
[12:01] that this field is relatively new, dates
[12:03] back to like the 1930s, said, his name
[12:05] was Hans Selye, "It's not the stress
[12:07] that kills us, it's our response to the
[12:09] stress that kills us." Um and so really
[12:12] the response is meant to get us back to
[12:14] the state of what we call homeostasis,
[12:16] right? We don't like to be out of whack.
[12:17] So when you have a fever, you shiver to
[12:19] kind of get your temperature back to
[12:20] normal. So when something happens, you
[12:22] do all these mechanisms, you know,
[12:24] biologically to help you survive, but
[12:25] then you want to go back to that resting
[12:26] state, that homeostasis state.
[12:29] The problem is that when you're turning
[12:31] the stress response over and over again,
[12:33] you actually move away from that. And so
[12:36] again, the original father of stress
[12:37] research said there were like three
[12:38] phases when someone is under stress. The
[12:40] first was an alarm phase, "Oh my gosh,
[12:43] what's happening?" The second is a state
[12:45] of sort of pushing against it or
[12:47] resisting the stress. And the last is
[12:49] exhaustion. You literally burn out
[12:51] because you just cannot
[12:53] fight anymore. And that's the part where
[12:55] we see people get chronically sick from
[12:57] chronic stress.
[12:58] >> And it seems like burnout is happening
[13:00] more than ever now, right?
[13:01] >> It it's everywhere in every in medicine,
[13:05] in the field of medicine, in in
[13:06] everyone's everyday lives.
[13:08] >> So first is the alarm phase with stress,
[13:11] and then is the let's push through this.
[13:12] >> Let's resist it. I can't believe this is
[13:14] happening.
[13:14] >> Okay.
[13:15] >> I'm going to fight against it. And then
[13:17] when you're, you know, it's just on all
[13:18] the time, eventually you sort of become
[13:21] exhausted.
[13:22] >> And you burn out. And then you're living
[13:23] in burnout just trying to survive, I
[13:25] guess.
[13:25] >> You are living in burnout trying to
[13:27] survive.
[13:28] >> Emotional survival.
[13:29] >> Yeah.
[13:30] >> Gosh, this is interesting. How much
[13:31] training did you have around navigating
[13:33] emotions when you were going to medical
[13:35] school?
[13:37] Zero.
[13:37] >> I I mean, people ask me why why did I
[13:40] write this book? What do I hope this
[13:41] accomplishes? I hope that this ignites a
[13:43] fire under every single medical
[13:45] institution and hospital and, you know,
[13:47] training program to say, "We need to do
[13:48] a better job integrating psychology into
[13:51] clinical medicine." Because we keep them
[13:54] totally separate. So, the fields of
[13:55] psychology do their research, medicine
[13:57] practices, and no one is connecting the
[13:59] dots. No one's teaching medical
[14:02] students, "This is really important for
[14:04] you to ask about." No one's building it
[14:06] into how we treat patients.
[14:09] And no one's teaching about the stress
[14:10] response and how to change that. And so,
[14:13] that's why I feel like we're really
[14:14] missing the boat here in medicine. Um
[14:17] so, I hope that whoever's listening um
[14:20] says, "You know what? We should invest
[14:21] in teaching more of this in our training
[14:24] programs. We should invest in building
[14:26] resilience training programs so that
[14:29] when I hand a patient a diagnosis, which
[14:31] is a whole 'nother form of stress, I'm
[14:33] also handing them a prescription for how
[14:35] to walk through that moment."
[14:36] >> Right.
[14:37] I mean, so when did you start to, you
[14:38] know, after decades of working with
[14:41] patients, when did you start to realize
[14:43] just prescribing a treatment isn't
[14:45] necessarily
[14:47] the solution that's going to give them
[14:48] the best results?
[14:50] >> It definitely was, as you said, not
[14:52] something that they teach us. It was
[14:55] just sort of being in practice. And
[14:57] initially, my interest was much more in
[14:59] the stress reaction, and so I gave a lot
[15:01] of talks on stress. And then,
[15:03] when I was approached to write a book
[15:06] um by my publisher, and they said,
[15:07] "Well, we we would be interested in
[15:09] having you write about COVIDs and COVID
[15:11] and diets, a COVID diet book. Is that
[15:13] something you want to write about?" And
[15:14] I said,
[15:15] >> COVID diet?
[15:16] >> Yeah, like like he what diet can we give
[15:18] to people who have survived kind
[15:21] >> Oh, okay.
[15:21] >> gone through COVID and may have gained
[15:22] weight through the pandemic.
[15:23] >> Got you. And you're like, "I don't want
[15:25] to do that."
[15:25] >> I said, I mean, I I talk about diets all
[15:27] the time, but what I really want to
[15:29] write about is resilience. This concept
[15:31] of transforming a stress response into a
[15:34] resilient response, because that's the
[15:35] other half of this. So, we can sit here
[15:37] all day and talk about how bad stress
[15:39] is, and we should educate people about
[15:41] that. And in the first part of the book,
[15:43] we talk about that. But the whole second
[15:44] part, and the part that really is where
[15:46] we need to be investing, is how do we
[15:48] actually help people dial down the
[15:50] stress response and know that they can
[15:52] survive whatever life throws their way.
[15:53] And that that's really what fascinated
[15:55] me from the time I was a little kid was
[15:58] people who've been through sort of any
[15:59] kind of tragedy, and we see it
[16:02] everywhere. I see it in the stories I
[16:03] tell in the news. I see it in my
[16:05] patients. I see it in my family. I've
[16:07] had my own experiences, and you realize
[16:10] all of us are going to face some sort of
[16:11] challenge at some point. And so, how do
[16:13] we thrive [clears throat]
[16:15] >> Mhm.
[16:15] >> after we've been hit with some sort of
[16:17] challenge? Because that trauma or
[16:19] challenge elicits that stress response.
[16:21] So, we need a way to combat that. And
[16:23] so, creating a resilient response, as we
[16:26] talk about in the second half of the
[16:27] book, is the way to give you the power
[16:29] to say, "I I am not subject to what
[16:31] happens to me in my life. I can actually
[16:33] take control and figure out how to
[16:35] create a life that has meaning and
[16:37] purpose despite what has happened to me
[16:39] that has changed the trajectory of my
[16:41] life."
[16:42] >> Wow. Did you struggle a lot growing up
[16:44] with learning how to navigate stress? Or
[16:46] was it always kind of easy for you?
[16:47] >> You know, my I had a really, I would
[16:48] say, easy upbringing in a lot of ways. I
[16:50] had two wonderful parents. My mom was
[16:53] one of the moms that sort of did
[16:55] everything for my brother and I. Oh, you
[16:56] need this? I'm going to go get it for
[16:57] you. Let me make your sandwich. You
[16:59] know, she was very much the doer and the
[17:00] fixer. Um but my father was an immigrant
[17:03] from India, came here with no money, and
[17:06] built his whole cardiology career
[17:07] himself. And so, I heard a lot of those
[17:09] stories. And I think hearing those
[17:12] stories of coming here from someone else
[17:14] and really scratching out and carving
[17:16] out your life. And my father always
[17:18] telling my brother and I, no matter what
[17:20] happens to you, you can survive. He
[17:21] literally would say those words to us.
[17:23] So, I was sort of infused from a very
[17:25] young age with this idea that whatever
[17:28] life throws our way, you can get through
[17:30] it. You can handle it. And then, when I
[17:33] was in medical school, I had my own
[17:34] event where I lost vision in part of my
[17:36] eye.
[17:37] >> Really?
[17:37] >> And that was really a turning point for
[17:39] me when I became the patient of saying,
[17:41] "Oh my god, how did this happen? What
[17:43] does this mean? How do I walk through
[17:45] this diagnosis?"
[17:46] >> When you were young?
[17:47] >> And I was 22.
[17:48] >> Was it stress-related? Was it some other
[17:50] event? Was it What was
[17:51] >> No one knows.
[17:51] >> Really? So, just one night, you were
[17:53] just like, "I can't really see. It's
[17:54] kind of blurry here."
[17:55] >> I didn't even know really what was going
[17:57] on. I knew I was in the lecture hall,
[17:58] and I would see like colored lights out
[17:59] of the bottom part of my eye when they
[18:01] would turn the lights down to show us
[18:02] slides, and I thought, "Well, that
[18:03] doesn't seem normal, but I'm sure it's
[18:05] nothing." And I went home to South
[18:07] Florida, and I had some tests, and they
[18:09] said, "Well, actually, you failed your
[18:11] visual field exam, and you have no
[18:13] vision in this bottom part of your right
[18:14] eye." And I said, "How could that be?
[18:16] I'm healthy. I'm 22. I don't have any
[18:19] other medical conditions." And they
[18:20] said, "Well, you could have multiple
[18:22] sclerosis because that can cause that.
[18:24] You might have had a stroke."
[18:25] >> Wow.
[18:26] >> Um they didn't know. And they said, "You
[18:28] have to have a brain MRI every year for
[18:30] the next 5 years."
[18:32] And I thought, "I'm just starting my
[18:34] medical career. I'm 22, and now I have
[18:37] this unknown diagnosis, and I have to
[18:39] have scans for the next 5 years that
[18:40] might show something or might not." And
[18:43] that was really the turning point for
[18:44] me. I think we all have that moment
[18:47] where I thought,
[18:48] I would I was like spiraling, really. It
[18:50] was like the lowest, scariest point in
[18:52] my life. Um
[18:53] and I always tell the story I tell in
[18:55] the book that my mom sent me the
[18:56] Serenity Prayer
[18:58] on a little note card and with a little
[19:00] letter that said, you know, "Read these
[19:02] words, and you can spend every day from
[19:06] here on out worrying about what might
[19:07] happen,
[19:07] >> Mhm.
[19:08] >> and waste all those days, or you can
[19:11] just put one foot in front of the other
[19:12] and move forward and maybe that never
[19:14] happens, right? Cuz I was afraid, what
[19:16] if I lose my whole vision? What if I
[19:17] can't walk?
[19:18] >> Yeah. So it's like the fear of the
[19:20] diagnosis
[19:21] >> Yes.
[19:21] >> could cause you to have more challenges
[19:24] in the future than actually
[19:26] >> Correct.
[19:26] >> what would come your way. You know, it's
[19:28] like the anxiety around the unknown
[19:31] maybe causes more problems sometimes.
[19:33] >> It causes so many problems and that is
[19:35] like for me when I tell someone you have
[19:39] heart disease. So someone like you comes
[19:40] to my office, you think you're totally
[19:42] healthy. I send you for a scan, like a
[19:43] calcium score that shows plaque in your
[19:45] arteries and you're sitting in my exam
[19:47] room and I say Lewis, you know, your
[19:49] scan showed you have coronary artery
[19:50] disease and your whole world is
[19:53] >> am I going to live? What am I supposed
[19:54] to do? I have left? What can I do? Do I
[19:55] need a medication? What about my kids?
[19:57] You know, you start
[19:58] >> Exactly.
[19:59] >> ruminating. And this was And this was
[20:01] the other reason when you asked me what
[20:02] was the turning point for sort of
[20:04] writing this was
[20:05] telling people they had had just had a
[20:07] heart attack or a stroke or they have a
[20:09] heart failure diagnosis and every single
[20:12] patient would sit there and look at me
[20:13] with that set that exactly that look of
[20:15] fear and paralysis that their whole
[20:17] world has just been turned upside down
[20:20] and it it's a trauma and I recognize
[20:22] that no one calls a medical diagnosis a
[20:25] form of trauma. Nobody talks about that.
[20:28] >> Yeah.
[20:29] >> But we should because when you tell
[20:30] someone you have breast cancer or colon
[20:33] cancer or heart failure, your whole
[20:35] world is turned upside down.
[20:36] >> Yeah.
[20:36] >> And you're afraid.
[20:38] >> You're terrified unless you've been, you
[20:40] know, educated for years as a doctor and
[20:42] you know what the pros and cons are or
[20:44] what you can do or treatments.
[20:47] And how how important is it for anyone
[20:50] to learn how to give bad news?
[20:52] >> Mhm.
[20:53] >> You know what I mean? Not just the
[20:53] doctor because doctors have to give bad
[20:55] news all the time, I guess.
[20:56] >> always do it the right way, but we
[20:58] should. [laughter]
[20:58] >> Do they teach you how to deliver bad
[21:00] news?
[21:01] >> question. I feel like we fail a lot in
[21:03] the department of emotional intelligence
[21:05] in medical training, but it
[21:07] >> mean, you say it's trauma just receiving
[21:09] bad news.
[21:10] >> Yes.
[21:10] >> It is and and
[21:12] So yes, to answer your question, we
[21:14] should be teaching people how to give
[21:15] the news because the delivery and the
[21:17] communication matters in those moments,
[21:19] right? But I think the second thing that
[21:22] became apparent to me is that people
[21:23] would look at me and say
[21:24] when am I going to be myself again, Dr.
[21:26] Narula? When am I going to feel like my
[21:28] old self because I don't feel like that
[21:30] right now. I feel petrified that
[21:32] tomorrow I could have another heart
[21:34] attack or I could have another stroke
[21:36] and now not be able to walk.
[21:38] Or I could die cuz I just had an
[21:40] arrhythmia and I have a defibrillator
[21:42] and now what if it doesn't fire?
[21:43] And so it was those conversations where
[21:46] people would say, "When will I be myself
[21:48] again?" And I would look at them and
[21:50] say, "You will never ever be yourself
[21:53] again." But and here's the here's the
[21:55] thing.
[21:56] But you can be something that is totally
[21:59] different and totally new and totally
[22:02] beautiful where you can have a life
[22:04] where you can thrive.
[22:06] A life of joy and meaning and purpose
[22:08] and value and happiness. We just have to
[22:10] help you on this new road.
[22:12] But you can get there.
[22:14] So I think it was this recognition that
[22:17] you're breaking away from this vision
[22:19] that you thought you had of your life.
[22:20] It was going down one road.
[22:22] And now you're switching in a different
[22:24] direction and that's okay.
[22:26] And allowing people to recognize that
[22:28] there's that flexibility there that life
[22:30] is not
[22:31] always the way you planned it for
[22:33] anyone.
[22:34] You know
[22:36] from your own life.
[22:38] So
[22:39] >> It's re- learning how to reinvent
[22:40] yourself when you get that type of news
[22:41] or diagnosis or whatever might be that
[22:43] trauma.
[22:45] You know, that you're experiencing. It's
[22:46] like how do you reinvent who you're
[22:48] going to be moving forward?
[22:49] >> How do you not let it destroy you?
[22:50] >> Yes, exactly.
[22:51] >> How do you let it change you into
[22:53] something that that allows you to
[22:55] actually do good in the world and to
[22:57] feel happy and to do all the things that
[23:00] we're meant to do when we're here on
[23:01] this planet. We have one life, right?
[23:03] And so we want to make the most of it.
[23:05] And so the worst thing would be if a
[23:07] tragedy or a trauma happens to you
[23:10] and it makes you unable to be the
[23:13] most beautiful best version of who you
[23:15] could be. Maybe something different than
[23:17] you might be had had in your mind, but
[23:20] it can still be great.
[23:22] >> At work, greatness sometimes starts with
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[24:33] >> So how did you learn to navigate that
[24:35] traumatic stress that came to you when
[24:38] you had, you know, blurry vision through
[24:39] an eye and you didn't realize like I
[24:41] have to do all these tests for the next
[24:42] 5 years and who knows, am I going to see
[24:44] after that? You know, how did you
[24:46] respond? Did you respond well or respond
[24:49] in a way that caused more anxiety and
[24:51] stress?
[24:53] What happened?
[24:54] >> I think for those first that first month
[24:57] or two, I was not responding well.
[24:59] Anytime I felt something, numbness in my
[25:01] hand, I thought, "Oh, here we go. I have
[25:03] it's multiple sclerosis and I'm losing
[25:05] feeling in my hand." Or I would be
[25:08] walking to my medical school class and I
[25:10] would trip and I would think that there
[25:11] it is, I'm losing my balance. So, the
[25:13] first, you know, month or two were like
[25:15] crippling. And that's why I say I
[25:17] understand what that feels like.
[25:19] >> So, you were finding confirmation of all
[25:22] the bad stuff.
[25:23] >> I was seeing it everywhere even if it
[25:25] didn't exist.
[25:26] >> You were making it up in your mind.
[25:27] >> it up in my mind because the fear was so
[25:30] it was consuming. And so, that's when I
[25:33] got the Serenity Prayer and I really
[25:34] took my mom's words to heart and the
[25:36] words of the prayer, which is about
[25:37] accepting the things you can't change
[25:39] and changing the things that you can.
[25:41] >> Do you know the whole prayer? Do you
[25:42] have it memorized or not?
[25:43] >> the three lines that she sent me, God
[25:44] grant me the serenity to accept the
[25:46] things you cannot change, the courage to
[25:48] change the things you can, and the
[25:49] wisdom to know the difference.
[25:51] So, that was really part one. And then
[25:53] part two of what helped me at that time
[25:55] was, you know, we talk a lot about
[25:57] resilience, about role models. And for
[26:00] me, I found um a book by Richard Cohen,
[26:04] who was a journalist, uh married to
[26:06] Meredith Vieira at ABC News, and he had
[26:09] multiple sclerosis, and he had multiple
[26:11] bouts of colon cancer, and he wrote a
[26:13] book called Blindsided. And I read this
[26:15] book at this moment in time. It came to
[26:17] me. It was almost like serendipity and
[26:20] and I read how Richard walked through
[26:23] his diagnosis and his life and he still
[26:25] had three children and he still
[26:26] continued to work and he still was
[26:28] married and had this loving relationship
[26:30] and I thought, "If Richard Cohen can do
[26:33] all of this and live this great life
[26:35] despite having
[26:37] multiple sclerosis and not being able to
[26:38] walk as well and losing vision and then
[26:41] getting cancer,
[26:43] I can do this." And so, it was that,
[26:45] too. It was seeing someone else be able
[26:48] to
[26:49] just move down the path they wanted to
[26:51] and not become as Richard calls it the
[26:54] victim. Not become defined by your
[26:56] disease. So often it's easy for us to
[26:59] say
[27:00] I have heart I'm heart disease. I have
[27:02] colon cancer and that becomes your
[27:04] entire identity.
[27:05] >> Mhm.
[27:05] >> And and the disease takes over who you
[27:08] are. But to to say that's a that's a
[27:10] part of me, that's not all of me and I'm
[27:13] going to continue I'm going to deny that
[27:15] as Richard says use denial in that way
[27:18] that that my trajectory or my path is
[27:21] going to be what you might think it is.
[27:23] I'm just going to keep going down the
[27:24] road I want to go and dealing with my
[27:26] life and the things that come my way. So
[27:27] it was those two things Louis that that
[27:30] helped me navigate that very stressful
[27:32] time and I think again founded my
[27:35] interest in this idea of why teaching
[27:37] people how to move forward from a
[27:40] traumatic event whether it be a medical
[27:41] diagnosis or any other trauma is so
[27:43] critically important.
[27:44] >> I mean if someone takes on the identity
[27:47] of a victim
[27:48] >> Yeah.
[27:48] >> when they receive traumatic diagnosis
[27:51] physically or emotionally
[27:54] and they hold on to a victim identity
[27:57] >> Yeah.
[27:58] >> How much harder is it for them to
[27:59] overcome that challenge with the victim
[28:01] identity they're holding on to?
[28:03] >> So hard. So hard and it's not it's not
[28:05] fair. You shouldn't have to carry that
[28:08] because that's not you. There's a
[28:09] beautiful book that I reference in my
[28:11] book that I read when I was doing a CBS
[28:14] news story on a woman named Sonia Wasden
[28:17] who wrote a book called An Impossible
[28:18] Life and she suffered from bipolar and
[28:22] she had had multiple suicide attempts.
[28:25] Her daughter actually found one of her
[28:26] suicide notes.
[28:28] >> Wow.
[28:28] >> It was a very difficult life and she
[28:32] realized that as she says she could
[28:35] still have a beautiful life. That she
[28:37] could still have this amazing life. It
[28:39] wasn't an impossible life as she titled
[28:41] the book despite having
[28:44] all of this mental health, you know,
[28:46] real mental health disease she could
[28:48] navigate it and she has, you know, a
[28:51] beautiful life now. Her marriage is
[28:52] intact. She's traveling around the
[28:55] country with her daughter donating her
[28:56] book to libraries.
[28:58] So, it just shows you that no matter
[29:00] what happens to you, eat no matter how
[29:03] difficult it is,
[29:04] you can still be not only an agent of
[29:06] change for other people, but you can
[29:09] have find meaning for yourself.
[29:11] >> Are there any patients that come to mind
[29:13] without saying their names where they
[29:16] they held on to the victim's identity
[29:19] and that you really saw them go go
[29:20] downhill afterwards? And then also
[29:23] others who maybe they're in really bad
[29:25] shape. You're like, I don't know about
[29:27] this person if they're going to make it
[29:28] or not.
[29:29] But they took on an identity of
[29:31] inspiration, hope, possibilities, and
[29:33] not a victim identity. And you actually
[29:36] saw them turn it around and live a
[29:37] better life.
[29:38] >> Totally. I mean, thankfully I will say
[29:40] that
[29:41] for a lot of my patients, even if they
[29:43] started out with that victim mentality,
[29:45] we would talk about how they shouldn't
[29:47] feel that way. And how they should put
[29:48] one foot in front of the other and just
[29:50] keep going forward and that with time,
[29:52] the fear would dissipate. And so, a lot
[29:54] of them were able to move through that.
[29:55] But there are other people who almost
[29:57] off the bat immediately, their outlook
[30:00] is one that is so full of hope and
[30:03] optimism and faith and a lot of the
[30:05] skills that I talk about that they
[30:07] really were able to walk through
[30:08] whatever their challenge was much easier
[30:11] and faster. And um, you know, that's why
[30:15] in the second half of the book where I
[30:16] talk about the resilient response, it's
[30:18] really this idea that it becomes a kit
[30:20] for you to use. And the more you
[30:22] practice these techniques, whether
[30:24] that's staying fit or an acceptance
[30:26] mentality or flexible thinking or having
[30:28] hope or having social support, the next
[30:31] time you face a challenge, you're going
[30:32] to be better prepared because you
[30:34] practiced it. You fired those pathways
[30:36] in your brain. You're more used to
[30:38] pulling on that from your toolbox to
[30:40] utilize it. And so, I think the people,
[30:43] and this is why I may write if I ever
[30:44] write a book again, it'll be a
[30:45] children's book. I think we need to be
[30:46] targeting our youth because the earlier
[30:49] we can start training people, kids to
[30:52] think in that way,
[30:53] the better capable adults they will be
[30:55] in order to in terms of navigating
[30:58] life's challenges. Um But I have and and
[31:01] my patients have informed a lot of my
[31:02] work, you know, I I I think of this one
[31:04] patient I had who I tell the story. He
[31:07] went in for a routine surgery, not a
[31:08] cardiac procedure, and something went
[31:10] wrong and he came out almost legally
[31:13] blind.
[31:14] And he came into my office
[31:15] >> Yes. And it was a it was like a medical
[31:18] complication.
[31:19] >> Oh, gosh.
[31:20] >> came into my office and and you can
[31:22] imagine, I mean, this is horrendous. And
[31:24] I said to him and he was like a shell of
[31:27] like who he had been.
[31:29] >> Oh.
[31:29] >> And he used to be, you know,
[31:31] totally vibrant and had a he was
[31:34] physically exercising all the time and
[31:36] biking and he had a career and he
[31:38] couldn't do any of those things.
[31:40] And then I saw him six or seven months
[31:42] later
[31:43] and obviously he had not gotten his
[31:45] sight back, but he was there was like a
[31:47] lightness to him and I said I said to
[31:49] him, "What helped you? How did you get
[31:52] to this point?" And he said to me, "It
[31:53] was two things. Number one, I accepted
[31:55] what happened and I realized I couldn't
[31:57] take it back. I couldn't change it. And
[31:59] the sooner I accepted it, it opened me
[32:01] up to be able to heal. And the second
[32:03] were my friends." He said, "My friends
[32:05] take me out on their fishing boat and,
[32:07] you know, they make me laugh and they
[32:09] show me that there's still so much joy
[32:12] in life." So, my friends and acceptance.
[32:14] I have other patients who've told me
[32:16] other strategies they've used, but a lot
[32:18] of what I talk about in the book is not
[32:20] just what I've read in psychology and
[32:22] what I've seen in my own life. It's what
[32:23] I hear from my patients telling me
[32:26] they've used to help survive and move
[32:28] forward.
[32:29] >> I'm a big believer in,
[32:31] you know, developing our mindset to heal
[32:34] ourselves and having the correct mindset
[32:37] that can
[32:38] encourage healing, encourage peace,
[32:40] encourage alignment within ourselves.
[32:43] And when we have alignment within
[32:44] ourselves, I feel like our body gets
[32:46] into alignment as well.
[32:49] Have you seen any cases where people
[32:50] have really stepped into belief in God,
[32:52] spiritual belief, and then you've seen
[32:55] incredible healings because they
[32:56] believed so much
[32:59] in the power of God?
[33:01] >> I'm so glad you asked that because I do
[33:03] feel like this is another area that we
[33:04] don't talk about a lot in medicine. Um
[33:06] actually one of my first projects as an
[33:09] intern when I was in training in at
[33:10] Boston at the Brigham and Women's
[33:12] Hospital, we were allowed to do a
[33:13] project on any topic and I picked
[33:15] spirituality in medicine.
[33:16] >> Mhm.
[33:17] >> Because I am a very spiritual person and
[33:19] I believe that there is a real role for
[33:21] spirituality for our patients and it's
[33:24] important that we ask about it. And so
[33:26] you will find there is a growing
[33:28] movement in medicine to take a spiritual
[33:30] history where you ask people about their
[33:32] spirituality.
[33:33] >> Interesting.
[33:34] >> Because it informs what kind of care
[33:36] they want. Do they want a defibrillator
[33:38] or do they want to die if their heart
[33:39] goes into the main? Do they want a blood
[33:41] transfusion or not? What do they want to
[33:43] happen at the end of their life? So
[33:45] we're again neglecting asking about this
[33:46] really important aspect of people's
[33:48] lives, but as you said, it also helps
[33:50] them in times of challenge. And I've had
[33:52] so many patients tell me that what
[33:54] pulled them through was their faith.
[33:56] >> Really?
[33:56] >> Was their faith. And
[33:59] you know, there is a also
[34:02] body of literature, albeit not the
[34:04] traditional, but that does show the
[34:05] power of prayer
[34:07] >> Mhm.
[34:07] >> in terms of healing and the power of
[34:10] that mindset belief that you will get
[34:12] better and that you have someone else in
[34:14] your corner, a spiritual being
[34:16] that helps you get better. Um so there's
[34:19] no question that that is very powerful
[34:22] and that's why I really I wrote an
[34:24] entire chapter dedicated to faith and
[34:26] spirituality because I believe that
[34:29] that's so meaningful.
[34:30] >> Interesting. stress is one of the main
[34:32] causes of, I guess, disease, uh not just
[34:36] heart disease or stroke, but if it's one
[34:37] of the main causes of a lot of different
[34:39] diseases,
[34:40] and if prayer brings people peace,
[34:43] then it sounds like it's a good
[34:45] prescription, as well, to use prayer to
[34:47] create more peace.
[34:48] >> Anything that dials down your stress
[34:50] response, you know, so when people say
[34:52] like, "How do I turn my stress response
[34:53] off?" For everyone that looks to
[34:55] >> Yeah.
[34:55] >> Yeah.
[34:55] >> Meditate, walk, nature, whatever,
[34:58] prayer, whatever might be the
[34:59] >> Whatever it is. And so, key. So, music.
[35:02] For everyone it's a little social
[35:03] connection. Go out and have coffee with
[35:05] someone.
[35:06] Um be in nature, mindfulness, breathing,
[35:10] you know, sleep. Uh there's whole kinds
[35:12] of things we can do, but it is very
[35:13] particular to the person, and that's why
[35:15] it's really a personal matter. It the
[35:17] same prescription is not going to fit
[35:20] for everyone.
[35:21] But, for some people, that time where
[35:23] they're in a church or a temple or
[35:25] they're in prayer is the time where it's
[35:28] almost like you're in a state of
[35:29] meditation, and you are dialing down the
[35:32] cortisol and the epinephrine and the and
[35:34] your breathing changes, and all of that
[35:35] is a reset. It's a turning on of that
[35:38] parasympathetic,
[35:39] calming part of your nervous system, as
[35:41] opposed to the fight-and-flight
[35:43] sympathetic part.
[35:45] >> What percentage of our days, our waking
[35:47] hours, do you feel like most people are
[35:49] in fight-or-flight mode?
[35:52] >> In New York City, where I see patients,
[35:53] it's probably like 90%.
[35:55] >> Really?
[35:55] >> It's a lot.
[35:56] >> So, if a human being is in, you know,
[35:58] let's say above 50% of their days in a
[36:01] uh in fight-or-flight, you know,
[36:03] scarcity,
[36:05] their nervous system is on high alert,
[36:07] rather than a relaxed response,
[36:10] how much more likely are they to
[36:13] have some type of complication
[36:15] physically later in life?
[36:17] >> There's no question. Again, you can look
[36:19] across different fields, but I'll speak
[36:21] to cardiology in in particular, which is
[36:23] the leading cause of death for men and
[36:24] women. That that chronic stress, it
[36:28] causes plaque rupture, it causes the
[36:30] build-up of plaque, it causes
[36:31] inflammation, it can lead to arrhythmias
[36:33] and heart failure and heart attacks and
[36:35] strokes. So, there are real physical
[36:38] consequences, and one of the nice things
[36:40] that has happened imaging world lately
[36:43] is we can see pictures now of what's
[36:46] happening in the body when people are
[36:47] under stress. And so, for a long time,
[36:48] stress research has been really hard to
[36:50] conduct because how do you tell what the
[36:52] effects are? But now, with PET scans and
[36:54] functional MRIs, we actually see the
[36:56] areas in the brain lighting up when
[36:58] people are under stress at the same time
[37:00] that we see the inflammatory cells in
[37:02] the bone marrow and the inflammation in
[37:03] the lining of the blood vessels. And you
[37:05] can very quickly, easily see this
[37:07] picture in front of you of how it's all
[37:09] tied together. So, it's very hard to
[37:11] ignore that stress is this damaging when
[37:14] you see it on the imaging scans. And so,
[37:16] this is really the future, I think of of
[37:18] stress research, um and hopefully
[37:20] opening people's eyes to the negative
[37:21] effects of stress.
[37:23] Um but there have been other big
[37:24] studies. There was a big 52-country
[37:26] international study that showed people
[37:28] under chronic stress are twice as likely
[37:29] to have heart attacks. There are studies
[37:31] where we have people do mental stress
[37:33] exercises like subtract by seven, and
[37:36] you can see changes in blood flow to the
[37:37] heart just by being under that mental
[37:39] stress of doing arithmetic. Um so,
[37:42] >> to be so stressed in school doing tests.
[37:44] I would just be like anxious all day.
[37:46] The day you know, the day before
[37:47] stressing, trying to memorize all these
[37:50] different things.
[37:51] And I'm just like, I'm not a fan of
[37:53] tests.
[37:53] >> Yeah, I'm not either. Or nor of math.
[37:55] >> Yeah, you're right. Exactly. [laughter]
[37:57] This is interesting. So, how much of
[37:59] stress is mental related?
[38:02] >> I mean, again, the stressors happen to
[38:04] all of us all the time.
[38:05] >> we It's how we observe it and how we
[38:08] >> we choose to respond to it and react to
[38:10] it. And again, uh we're human. We're all
[38:12] going to have that responsive of gosh,
[38:14] you know, I didn't want this to happen.
[38:16] Or this person in front of me in the
[38:18] traffic it just, you know, irritated me.
[38:21] Or this didn't go right at work. It's
[38:23] going to happen, but recognizing that
[38:26] you don't want to stay in that state of
[38:27] being turned on. You want to turn off is
[38:29] really what's key. And you want to try
[38:31] to maybe let things go, and you want to
[38:33] try to use some of these other outlets.
[38:35] Um, I like to talk a lot about like the
[38:38] micro moments in your day where you're
[38:40] turning the stress response down. And I
[38:42] was telling the story recently of for me
[38:43] many times that's just like holding my
[38:45] husband's hand um when we watch TV on
[38:48] the couch or in the car. We'll be
[38:50] driving and you know, he'll take my hand
[38:51] and hold it. And there's that physical
[38:53] sense of connection and touch that I can
[38:56] just feel. You know, yes, it just dials
[38:59] it down. Or
[39:00] we live we have a house in the country
[39:02] walking outside and just
[39:04] being in the trees and the breeze and
[39:06] hearing the birds and and that's
[39:08] helpful. So, it's those small moments
[39:11] you can find in your day just like the
[39:12] small moments where the stress response
[39:13] gets turned on. There are equally enough
[39:16] moments that you can find to do things
[39:18] where you can turn it off. You just have
[39:19] to pay attention. You have to pay
[39:21] attention that this is a problem and you
[39:23] have to prioritize not allowing yourself
[39:26] to be chronically turned on in that
[39:28] state.
[39:30] >> Over the last 10 years, have you seen
[39:31] people become more stressed because of
[39:34] social media, their phones, AI,
[39:37] or
[39:38] >> the news and politics. That's what I
[39:40] hear all the time.
[39:41] >> really?
[39:41] >> All the time. When I say, "How are you?"
[39:43] and they say, "I'm stressed." And they
[39:45] say, "Have you you know, I don't want to
[39:46] watch the news anymore."
[39:47] And I say, "I know I work in the news,
[39:49] but I get it." But
[39:51] um they it's very difficult for people
[39:53] right now
[39:53] >> Gosh.
[39:54] >> They're telling me what's happening and
[39:56] what they're seeing in the country is
[39:58] giving them an intense amount of stress.
[40:01] >> It's so interesting. My dad never let us
[40:02] watch commercials or the news um because
[40:07] of that. You know, I was growing up
[40:08] whenever a commercial end you know,
[40:10] unfortunately, I think it's what like 30
[40:12] or 40% of all commercials are medical
[40:13] related, something like that.
[40:15] >> Yeah.
[40:16] >> And so if it's all about here's the
[40:17] problem you're going to have, or if you
[40:18] have this problem, then here's all the
[40:20] side effects, right? You're just
[40:22] constantly being programmed to watch and
[40:24] listen to that.
[40:25] >> Right.
[40:25] >> And see visually like, oh, this is what,
[40:28] you know, skin condition you might have,
[40:29] or whatever it might be. It's like
[40:30] you're programming this and it's causing
[40:32] anxiety and stress, even if you don't
[40:34] have it.
[40:34] >> You're dying.
[40:35] >> What if I have this? I need to remember
[40:36] this and I need to take this.
[40:39] And he was like, I never want you to
[40:41] watch the news.
[40:42] Um, he's like, I want you to be informed
[40:44] on what's happening, but not watch
[40:46] fear-based
[40:47] news, which is kind of all news. It's
[40:49] like you have to show the chaos in order
[40:52] to get people to watch. I like reading a
[40:53] newsletter and just be like, here's
[40:55] what's happening today in the world.
[40:56] Here's what's happening that you need to
[40:58] be informed on.
[40:59] >> Yeah.
[40:59] >> But not be tied into your stress around
[41:02] watching it.
[41:02] >> But that is where we're at right now,
[41:04] unfortunately. Like I literally have
[41:05] patients tell me they do not want to
[41:06] watch the news, and I say to them,
[41:08] that's fine. Don't watch the news then.
[41:09] Because if that's giving you stress, I
[41:11] don't want you to be under stress.
[41:12] >> Yeah.
[41:13] >> But I agree. I mean, social media and
[41:14] screens and that whole world. So I have
[41:16] two young daughters and that's a whole
[41:18] 'nother
[41:19] road of of stress that parents are
[41:21] trying to navigate in particular. Um,
[41:24] it's tough. It's a tough time we're
[41:26] living in right now.
[41:27] >> What advice would you give me as a
[41:29] father of twin girls under one, you
[41:32] know, yours are a little bit older now.
[41:34] I think eight and 14, I think in that
[41:35] range, but as they get older and they're
[41:38] facing a whole new world. Like I was 20
[41:41] one when Facebook came around for my
[41:43] college.
[41:44] Uh, and then all the other social
[41:46] medias, you know, afterwards.
[41:48] But I grew up without it and then I kind
[41:50] of had it in my early 20s and I still
[41:52] have it now. I grew up without AI, but
[41:54] now I'm using it.
[41:56] But your kids, my kids are growing up in
[41:58] that right away.
[42:00] What advice would you have for me
[42:01] knowing what you know now with your
[42:03] daughters?
[42:04] >> Uh, well, I think we like to teach our
[42:07] kids, first of all, we have not allowed
[42:09] them to have social social And my older
[42:11] daughter's 14.
[42:12] >> She she a phone or no phone?
[42:14] >> have a phone.
[42:14] >> I like that. Let's go.
[42:16] >> yeah. And I will give my husband a ton
[42:18] of credit, too, for this. He's been
[42:19] really good about You have to really be
[42:21] strict, but in some ways, social media
[42:24] side, there is just the addiction of of
[42:27] going to something for an answer. You
[42:28] know, my kids will say, "Well, I'll look
[42:30] it up." And we say, "We don't need to
[42:31] look everything up on the phone. You
[42:33] don't need to have that
[42:34] need to be satisfied every single
[42:37] second. It's just this constant craving
[42:39] for Well, let me look it up, or let me
[42:41] have the phone, or let me I'm bored, or
[42:43] I'm anxious, so I'm going to go to the
[42:44] phone to ease my anxiety. And so we want
[42:46] them to be resilient. We want them to be
[42:48] able to be bored and deal with challenge
[42:51] without relying on a device to get them
[42:53] through.
[42:54] Um and then certainly we don't want
[42:55] them, you know, comparing themselves to
[42:57] other people, and that's a whole 'nother
[42:58] world. But we have had so many
[43:00] conversations with my kids about just
[43:01] just being authentically you.
[43:04] >> Mhm.
[43:05] >> And, you know, the problem with social
[43:06] media, I think, is it makes you feel
[43:08] like you're not good enough.
[43:09] >> Yeah.
[43:10] >> It's very hard as a young person to feel
[43:12] you're okay being authentically you when
[43:14] you're being told that you should be
[43:16] this, or you should be that. So a lot of
[43:18] the conversations with my 14-year-old
[43:20] are around being happy with who she is,
[43:22] that she's amazing exactly as she is.
[43:24] And that's what we want her to believe
[43:26] in.
[43:26] >> When a young woman is comparing
[43:28] themselves to other women and how they
[43:31] look physically,
[43:33] or a young man is comparing themselves
[43:35] to another man who has more money, or is
[43:36] more muscular, or more attractive than
[43:39] them, per se, how much does comparison
[43:42] of what you don't have
[43:45] make you stressed and cause you to have
[43:47] more stress and disease?
[43:50] >> How could it not?
[43:51] >> Mhm.
[43:51] >> How could it not when you're looking at
[43:53] something and then it's making you feel
[43:54] like, "Well, I should have that, and I
[43:56] don't have that," or it's making you
[43:57] feel depressed or bad about your life,
[43:59] or anxious about something. All all of
[44:01] this data that we're seeing that we
[44:03] think is harmless is doing exactly that.
[44:05] I think your dad was right on to to take
[44:08] that off the table. Take that away. And
[44:11] that's really what we're talking about
[44:12] with taking the social media away and
[44:13] turning it off is living in the present
[44:16] moment where it's really though your
[44:17] interactions with people that are
[44:19] defining, you know, your daily life and
[44:22] how you feel about yourself or what
[44:23] you're doing every single day, your
[44:25] actions. It's not this fake I think
[44:29] what's happening. It's It's destructive
[44:31] on so many levels.
[44:33] >> I'm sure I'm going to make a lot of
[44:34] mistakes and not be perfect and I'm
[44:35] going to be on my phone more than I
[44:36] should and all these different things,
[44:37] but it's a reminder to myself not to do
[44:39] those things, but I was uh
[44:41] with my wife yesterday. We were having
[44:43] lunch
[44:44] um at this restaurant.
[44:47] And I saw this father with a daughter
[44:50] who's probably like, I don't know, 10,
[44:51] maybe 12, maybe 13.
[44:54] You can never tell how old these young
[44:55] girls are. I'm like, I don't know, are
[44:56] you Are you eight or you 16? I don't
[44:58] know. It's like
[44:59] she was probably like 10 to 13 range.
[45:02] And I saw them talking for a few
[45:04] minutes, but then the whole rest of the
[45:06] meal she was on her phone while they
[45:08] were eating
[45:09] and taking selfies and texting with
[45:11] people. Anytime I glanced over there,
[45:13] she was on her phone. And the father was
[45:15] not.
[45:16] And I I just felt so sad
[45:18] >> Yeah.
[45:18] >> to see the father
[45:20] who was maybe was going on a date with
[45:21] his daughter or taking her out, whatever
[45:23] it was.
[45:23] >> Yeah.
[45:24] >> But she was on her phone the whole time.
[45:26] Uh from my observation, from what my
[45:27] wife saw as well. And I was like, gosh,
[45:30] how do we make sure this doesn't happen
[45:32] to us? You know, how do we as parents
[45:34] make sure
[45:35] that we're modeling the right things,
[45:37] that we're not on our phone when we're
[45:38] around them so they don't do the same
[45:39] thing. All these different things. It's
[45:41] like we have to also have responsibility
[45:42] and check ourselves
[45:45] and ensure that we are being present,
[45:47] I'm assuming.
[45:47] >> Totally. And I I'm right there with you.
[45:49] My husband and I went out to dinner
[45:50] actually this summer and we were at a
[45:51] restaurant and the husband and wife and
[45:54] two kids, all four of them were on All
[45:56] were on devices
[45:58] for the entire meal. The husband and
[45:59] wife didn't talk to each other. The kids
[46:01] weren't talking to the parents. My
[46:03] husband and I sat there and we we felt
[46:05] again sad.
[46:06] >> Yeah.
[46:06] >> Sad for all of them because they're
[46:08] missing out on these moments of
[46:10] connection that are so important. The
[46:11] time that is so precious, especially
[46:13] with your kids as they're growing up. Um
[46:17] yeah, I think it's it's uh it's tough.
[46:19] It's a battle. There's no question. We
[46:21] face it every day. When I hear, "Well,
[46:22] my other friends have a phone." or "My
[46:24] other friends have this." and
[46:26] but you know, you have to fight the good
[46:28] fight, I think. And and we're learning
[46:29] more and more we talk about a lot in the
[46:31] news about the real damaging effects of
[46:35] screens on kids in particular because
[46:37] their brains are not developed yet.
[46:39] Until they're 21.
[46:41] So
[46:42] >> is, you know, I don't know, 6 until 16
[46:46] and they're on a phone for hours a day
[46:48] and they're using social media, how much
[46:50] does that impact their brain in a
[46:51] negative way?
[46:52] >> It's totally changing the wiring and the
[46:55] firing and the the way the brain is
[46:57] functioning. So it it
[46:59] it looks harmless, but it is not.
[47:03] Um and it is we just did a story on this
[47:05] recently, but it's it's that quick
[47:08] dopamine hit every time you see
[47:09] something. And so suddenly the real
[47:11] world, where you don't have a dopamine
[47:13] hit every single second, because it's
[47:15] boring sometimes or quiet, becomes
[47:18] unappealing or you can't pay attention
[47:19] in the real world. So it's changing the
[47:22] way that children can even pay attention
[47:25] to life or to function in the real
[47:26] world. Uh it's it's a real
[47:29] >> Wow.
[47:30] >> it's a real problem, but I think in
[47:32] terms of like the stress response, it's
[47:33] a big problem in generating untoward
[47:36] unseen stress inside the little bodies
[47:39] of our our children. Um
[47:41] >> As a parent then, I mean, when you're
[47:43] when you're single and you're
[47:44] responsible for your own life,
[47:47] sometimes you could be extremely
[47:48] stressed and like, "Oh, I have to go
[47:49] make money and have these
[47:50] responsibilities." and I got to go get a
[47:52] job or whatever it might be. And my, you
[47:54] know, boyfriend broke up with me or
[47:55] girlfriend, whatever it might be.
[47:56] But it can also be very freeing. I have
[47:58] no responsibilities. It's just me.
[48:01] When you become a parent, um there's a
[48:03] different level of stress.
[48:05] Cuz you're worried about
[48:07] >> level of stress.
[48:08] >> breathing 24/7
[48:10] >> [laughter]
[48:10] >> and you don't have full control over
[48:12] everything that happens, right?
[48:14] >> Yep.
[48:14] >> How have you learned as a parent to
[48:16] navigate your stress to make sure that
[48:18] you are
[48:19] uh responsible human being
[48:22] and stewarding them in a proper way, but
[48:24] also not consumed by survival mode
[48:27] emotions
[48:29] about them?
[48:30] >> It's such a great question because we
[48:32] don't talk about the stress We talk
[48:33] about the stress of being a caregiver
[48:34] sometimes. We don't talk about the
[48:36] stress of being a parent, um but it is
[48:39] really hard to parent. It is hard to
[48:43] to
[48:44] manage the emotions of your children,
[48:46] the failures, the success, all the
[48:48] things that come with raising human, the
[48:50] injuries. My daughter broke both her
[48:52] thumbs in succession of 2 months, you
[48:55] know? Comes running over to me with her
[48:56] thumb dislocated. There's a constant,
[48:58] almost on a day-to-day basis, there's
[49:00] something that's happening with your
[49:01] child that is eliciting that reaction in
[49:04] you. And I think as a parent you start
[49:06] to learn again that you can't I can't
[49:08] control if tomorrow she's going to be
[49:09] riding her bike like she was 4 weeks ago
[49:11] and fall and break something else. I
[49:13] can't control if something
[49:15] is bad is going to happen at school. My
[49:17] kid is going to get bullied or um she
[49:21] might fail this test that was really
[49:22] important for her. And so,
[49:24] to answer your question,
[49:26] part of what has given me
[49:29] um
[49:30] a feeling of less stress is trying to
[49:32] arm my children with the tools of
[49:34] resilience.
[49:34] >> Mhm.
[49:35] >> Because I can't fix all of these things.
[49:39] I can't prepare them for all of these
[49:40] things, but what I can do is give them a
[49:43] kit, a lesson, a road map to say, "When
[49:46] these things happen to you in life, and
[49:48] they will happen, I want you to remember
[49:50] this." So, in many ways I talk about
[49:51] this book as being like it's meant for
[49:53] everyone, but in many ways it was a map
[49:55] or a letter to my girls. So, that when
[49:58] I'm not here, they can pick it up and
[49:59] say, "I just got broken up with my
[50:01] boyfriend. What did Mom want me to know
[50:04] about navigating this sort of cool?"
[50:05] I had this happen. And so, I think as a
[50:08] parent, you relinquish some of that
[50:10] control over all of the inevitable
[50:12] things that are going to happen to your
[50:14] child that will cause you stress. And
[50:16] the best you can do is just try to do
[50:18] your best, be present, try to give them
[50:21] the best information knowledge you can,
[50:23] be loving and caring,
[50:26] be in the moment with them,
[50:29] and give them the information. Give them
[50:31] the power to make the right decisions,
[50:34] to know how to navigate this. That that
[50:36] makes me feel less stressed. If I feel
[50:38] like I was recently telling someone, my
[50:40] daughter who's 10 said to me, "Mommy, I
[50:42] heard this song on by this artist and I
[50:45] think you'll really like it." And I
[50:46] said, "Okay, do you want to play it for
[50:47] me?" So, she pulls up the song and it's
[50:49] called Tough People by Drew Baldridge.
[50:51] And I had never heard of Drew Baldridge.
[50:53] He's a very wonderful country singer.
[50:56] And I listened to the lyrics and it was
[50:57] all about how tough things in life
[50:59] create tough people. And she's 10. And I
[51:01] said, "Leila, I said, I can't believe
[51:03] you love this song." She's like, "I knew
[51:05] you would love it, Mom." And I thought,
[51:06] "Okay, I'm doing something right if my
[51:08] 10-year-old recognizes the value of
[51:12] being resilient in life."
[51:14] And that's that's the kind of thing that
[51:15] brings me joy and happiness. And And so,
[51:19] it's that and it's
[51:21] Louis, it's the small moments when I'm
[51:23] not stressed
[51:25] that I really focus on. So, my kids give
[51:27] me a lot of stress, but there are
[51:28] moments
[51:28] >> [laughter]
[51:29] >> there are
[51:30] >> joy also.
[51:31] >> so many moments of just pure joy and
[51:33] trying not to let all of the stress and
[51:35] the needs to do this or that take over
[51:38] being present in those moments of just
[51:40] laughter and cuddles and
[51:43] >> play and fun
[51:44] >> wins.
[51:46] >> So, Tara, as a cardiologist and as a
[51:47] parent of two, what if you can only give
[51:49] three pieces of advice to
[51:52] parents on how to raise resilient kids
[51:55] so that they are empowered to handle
[51:58] life's stresses and challenges that are
[51:59] going to come their way while you're
[52:01] here and while you're not here?
[52:03] >> Yeah.
[52:04] >> What three things would you tell them to
[52:05] do?
[52:06] >> So, in the book we talk about eight.
[52:08] There are eight tools that I talk about.
[52:10] But, if I had to distill it down to the
[52:12] three that I would recommend, I think
[52:14] the first is the first tool, which is
[52:15] acceptance. And one of the researchers
[52:18] in psychology that I interviewed in the
[52:20] book and for a CBS news story named Dr.
[52:22] Lucy Hone, she wrote a book called
[52:24] Resilient Grieving. She's fantastic. She
[52:26] gave one of the most watched TED Talks
[52:27] ever. And her first opening line is that
[52:31] adversity doesn't discriminate.
[52:33] And I think
[52:34] >> Rich, poor, young, old.
[52:36] >> going to have. So, I think imparting
[52:38] that lesson to your kids, really bad
[52:40] stuff's going to happen. I don't know
[52:42] when. I don't know what it's going to be
[52:43] for you, but something bad will happen.
[52:46] And you have to accept it, right? So,
[52:48] that's I think major lesson number one.
[52:50] The second tool is flexible thinking,
[52:53] which I think is also really critical
[52:54] for people. So, it's this idea that
[52:57] okay, maybe this was good, maybe this
[52:59] wasn't. I can kind of go down a
[53:00] different road.
[53:02] Lucy talks about, which I love, this
[53:03] idea of moving goal posts, which I
[53:06] thought was this beautiful visual image.
[53:07] So, Lucy Hone, this resilience
[53:09] researcher psychologist who studies and
[53:11] publishes research, lost her daughter
[53:13] Abby in a car accident. Daughter was 12.
[53:15] So, the resilience researcher now had to
[53:18] be resilient.
[53:19] >> Oh.
[53:20] >> And she said she still had her two sons,
[53:22] her husband, and she realized she
[53:23] couldn't fall apart because she still
[53:25] had life with them. So, she gave the
[53:28] analogy of well, we were heading towards
[53:30] this goal, but I'm just going to pick up
[53:32] the goal post and move it somewhere
[53:33] else.
[53:33] And I think it's that concept of being
[53:36] flexible and flowing and moving the goal
[53:38] post and
[53:39] and allowing yourself to create
[53:41] something different in terms of an image
[53:42] of your life. That's good. That's okay,
[53:45] right? Painting a different picture,
[53:47] painting with a different color,
[53:49] painting a different image, still
[53:50] beautiful. I I use in the analogy in the
[53:52] book of Michelangelo carving um and
[53:55] saying, "I set the angel free from the
[53:56] marble. I saw the angel in the marble
[53:58] and I carved until I set the angel
[53:59] free." Right? So, we're all being carved
[54:02] and chiseled and chipped, but there's
[54:04] still an angel underneath. I want my
[54:06] kids to have or any kid to have that
[54:08] message. And I think the third I would
[54:10] say is the power of
[54:13] gosh, this is a hard one because I I
[54:14] think love and social connection is
[54:16] really important and hope, which are
[54:18] probably the two other ones, but a
[54:19] purpose in life, which is the very last
[54:21] chapter in my book, um the very last
[54:23] tool. I think
[54:25] having something that drives you and
[54:27] gives meaning to your life, I call it
[54:29] the lighthouse. It is what pulls you
[54:32] forward from your darkest times and
[54:33] moments when you're wondering,
[54:36] "How can I go forward?" And suddenly you
[54:38] realize that there is a purpose inside
[54:40] you. Maybe you had it and you just
[54:41] didn't go after it, or maybe now you
[54:44] have a new purpose because of what
[54:45] happened to you in your life. I've
[54:47] interviewed a lot of people who've been
[54:49] through a lot of horrible things and
[54:52] I've seen them create or chart a new
[54:54] chapter journey in their life because of
[54:56] what happened to them.
[54:57] >> Yeah. It's almost like the tragedy
[54:58] becomes their purpose.
[54:59] >> Exactly.
[55:00] >> To help others who've gone through
[55:01] something similar.
[55:02] >> But that's a very powerful way to be
[55:04] resilient is to find your purpose and go
[55:07] after it. Um and I hope my kids do that.
[55:10] >> Wow. So, if you don't learn to have
[55:12] acceptance, if you're not a flexible
[55:14] thinker, and you have no purpose, you're
[55:16] probably going to have a lot more stress
[55:17] and anxiety.
[55:19] >> I think life will be a little bit
[55:20] tougher. Um not to say you don't need
[55:22] that. Um and certainly there are other
[55:24] tools as I said, you know, I think love
[55:26] and is and social support are so key and
[55:28] critical to our survival and we don't
[55:30] prioritize our connections to other
[55:33] humans enough. I think having hope and
[55:36] an optimistic outlook is really
[55:38] important too in helping us get through
[55:40] really difficult times. And then I talk
[55:42] about facing fear as another tool. And
[55:45] that's where therapy and things like CBT
[55:47] or ACT therapy can come in really handy
[55:50] because
[55:51] we're all going to be afraid when
[55:52] something happens. You bad breakup. Am I
[55:55] Do I want to get into a relationship
[55:56] again? That could happen again. We don't
[55:58] want the fear in life to paralyze you
[55:59] from living your life.
[56:01] >> What's your biggest fear right now?
[56:03] >> Oh god, this is the survival and
[56:04] happiness of my children. I mean,
[56:05] talking about stress, yeah. I mean, you
[56:07] realize as a parent it's not even about
[56:09] you anymore. It's literally how do I get
[56:11] these little humans to a point where
[56:14] they can thrive and be happy and at
[56:16] peace, right? That's what I want for my
[56:17] girls. Happiness, peace,
[56:21] and the ability to navigate life's
[56:23] challenge.
[56:24] >> This is fascinating. What's a skill that
[56:26] someone can start practicing daily that
[56:28] can make them more resilient, that will
[56:30] help them heal faster?
[56:32] >> Well, social connection, which I just
[56:33] talked about, is a
[56:35] is probably the easiest one for all of
[56:37] us to really start with right away.
[56:39] >> Not social media connection.
[56:40] >> Not social media. Real social life
[56:42] connection. So, meaning joining a group,
[56:45] an art group, or a walking group, or a
[56:47] club, something that you like to do
[56:49] where you're around other people.
[56:50] Going to meet your friend who you
[56:52] haven't met with because you keep
[56:53] putting it off for coffee.
[56:56] Going for a walk with a friend. It
[56:57] doesn't have to be a big group. It can
[56:58] be one person. Even doing a Zoom or a
[57:00] telehealth with someone that you love
[57:03] just to kind of connect with them even
[57:04] if it's over a screen. Um,
[57:07] but really recognizing the power of
[57:09] connection in terms of healing is so
[57:12] critical. We often talk about You've
[57:14] probably talked about the biggest study
[57:16] out of Harvard of hap- what created a
[57:18] happy life for the people they followed,
[57:20] the Waldinger study. And it wasn't money
[57:23] or success. It was their relationships.
[57:26] Our relationships in so many ways, um,
[57:30] make our lives and help us more than we
[57:34] could ever possibly imagine.
[57:36] So I think really paying attention to
[57:39] our world and who we have in it and how
[57:42] we can build connections. And it could
[57:43] be even you go into Starbucks and you
[57:46] just talk to the person behind the
[57:47] counter.
[57:49] We are so used to not paying attention
[57:51] or being invested in people. I see it in
[57:53] New York a lot. Everyone's like this and
[57:56] nobody wants to talk to anybody even in
[57:58] the apartment building elevators where
[58:00] we're crammed in. On the subway.
[58:03] >> You're on top of people but no one looks
[58:04] at anyone.
[58:05] >> No one's like connecting with people.
[58:06] And sometimes just a smile from a
[58:07] stranger or someone who did something
[58:09] nice for you or a conversation.
[58:12] It's helpful to that person. Maybe they
[58:14] needed that and it's helpful to you.
[58:16] So it's just opening up your mind to the
[58:18] world of possibilities that exists right
[58:20] outside your door or sometimes inside
[58:22] your door, you know, depending on who
[58:24] you live with. But really hardwiring in
[58:26] those social connections.
[58:28] >> Have you ever seen as a doctor that
[58:30] money house people have less stress? Or
[58:32] do you feel like clients you've had in
[58:34] or patients who have lots of money have
[58:36] more stress?
[58:38] >> That's a tough one. I think it can go
[58:40] both ways. I think
[58:42] for some people the financial stress of
[58:44] not having enough is is huge. They can't
[58:46] pay their health care bills. They can't
[58:48] afford medication. They
[58:50] And that that is a huge stressor for
[58:52] people. And then I So I think having
[58:54] financial stability is an anchor in a
[58:57] lot of ways. On the other hand I think a
[58:59] lot of people have financial stability
[59:01] but they don't have love in their life
[59:04] or they don't have a job they love or
[59:06] they have other things that are making
[59:08] them unhappy.
[59:09] >> Or they don't know how to navigate the
[59:11] money or they're stressed about the
[59:12] money that they have or whatever.
[59:14] >> Or losing it or keeping maintaining it.
[59:16] Yes.
[59:17] >> Interesting. Do you see a difference
[59:19] between a mindset of individuals who
[59:22] live in New York City or in big cities
[59:25] that have a lot more money
[59:28] but it also seems like some of them
[59:29] might have a lot more stress because
[59:31] they have more responsibilities or more
[59:33] money problems versus people that maybe
[59:36] live a more simple life. Maybe they
[59:38] don't have as much financially, but
[59:40] they're more in nature, more relaxed
[59:43] lifestyle.
[59:44] Maybe they don't have years of savings,
[59:46] but they're they're comfortable enough.
[59:48] Have you seen a difference there just
[59:49] personally?
[59:50] >> I I've seen a lot of my patients who say
[59:52] to me, I've seen them for years and
[59:54] they've been working under stress and
[59:55] they say, "I'm retiring next month and
[59:57] I'm going to move to Florida part-time.
[59:59] They say, "Don't worry, I'm going to
[1:00:00] come back up here for my doctor's
[1:00:02] visits, but I'm going to live down
[1:00:03] there." So, I I actually have a window
[1:00:05] into what happens because I see them
[1:00:07] twice a year when they come up to see me
[1:00:09] from for example Florida and they're
[1:00:11] like a totally different person.
[1:00:12] >> Really?
[1:00:13] >> Yeah, because they're relaxed and
[1:00:14] they're not under the gun of whatever
[1:00:16] the career pressures they had were and
[1:00:18] the the day-to-day routines and they
[1:00:20] tell me, "Oh, I went out for a walk on
[1:00:21] the beach or I'm gardening or I'm just
[1:00:24] with my husband going for walks with our
[1:00:26] dog." So, that slowing down of the pace
[1:00:30] of life and just the retirement, I I
[1:00:32] totally see it's like a weight is lifted
[1:00:34] off of people.
[1:00:35] >> I guess if they have money saved in
[1:00:37] retirement. I feel like, "I'm retired,
[1:00:39] but I got no money." That's stressful
[1:00:41] too, probably.
[1:00:41] >> And getting outside of New York City as
[1:00:43] we were mentioning, the noise and the
[1:00:45] traffic and everything else that that
[1:00:46] happens when you live in a big city that
[1:00:48] you don't even think is really affecting
[1:00:49] your level of stress, but but it is
[1:00:52] because everything's difficult. It's
[1:00:53] challenging to get groceries. It's
[1:00:55] challenging to
[1:00:57] go anywhere cuz you everything is tough
[1:01:00] sometimes when you live in a big city
[1:01:01] and sometimes when you slow down the
[1:01:02] pace and
[1:01:03] >> Yeah.
[1:01:04] >> it does take the stress level down.
[1:01:05] >> How long were you in New York City
[1:01:07] before you had a weekend home where you
[1:01:09] got away for the weekends?
[1:01:10] >> Not too long. Um
[1:01:12] >> A decade or something?
[1:01:13] >> I moved to New York City in 2007 and my
[1:01:17] husband and I just got our home out in
[1:01:18] the country in 2022.
[1:01:20] >> How has that been just taking a couple
[1:01:22] of days a week
[1:01:24] >> It is literally life-changing.
[1:01:25] >> Really?
[1:01:26] >> Life-changing. My husband and I talk
[1:01:27] about life BH before the house and life
[1:01:30] after the house.
[1:01:31] >> Really?
[1:01:31] >> Yeah. I mean, for us, we have two kids.
[1:01:34] We both have My husband's a plastic
[1:01:36] surgeon. I'm a cardiologist. You know,
[1:01:37] we have intense lives in the city. And
[1:01:39] so, being able to every single Friday
[1:01:42] get in the car and drive We live in like
[1:01:44] farm country where there are horses and
[1:01:46] cows and we had black bears crossing the
[1:01:48] road and foxes. Um and it's quiet and
[1:01:52] it's peaceful and it's beautiful. Um
[1:01:54] it's like life-saving for my husband and
[1:01:57] I um on so many levels just to feel that
[1:02:00] peace and be outside. Um also, my kids
[1:02:03] get to experience life that's not in a
[1:02:05] big city. So, my husband has a tractor
[1:02:08] um and so, they ride on the tractor with
[1:02:10] him and we, you know, go shopping in big
[1:02:13] stores that we can go with like Walmart
[1:02:15] and Costco and they they get just a
[1:02:17] different glimpse of life.
[1:02:19] >> Taste of life, yeah.
[1:02:20] >> Yes. Then they do growing up in New York
[1:02:21] City.
[1:02:22] So, [clears throat] it's it's been good
[1:02:24] for all of us. And our dog loves it cuz
[1:02:26] she can run around.
[1:02:27] >> Wow.
[1:02:29] >> [laughter]
[1:02:29] >> Between men and women, who faces more
[1:02:33] cardiac issues?
[1:02:35] >> Both.
[1:02:36] >> Really? There's not It doesn't
[1:02:37] discriminate.
[1:02:38] >> It is the leading cause of death for men
[1:02:41] and women.
[1:02:41] >> Really?
[1:02:42] >> Cardiovascular disease. And
[1:02:43] >> more for Is a higher percentage in men
[1:02:46] or more higher percentage in women or is
[1:02:47] it the same?
[1:02:47] >> Leading cause of death for both. More
[1:02:49] than kills more women than all forms of
[1:02:51] cancer combined.
[1:02:52] >> Wow.
[1:02:53] >> Um so, one person every 34 seconds dies
[1:02:55] in this country from cardiovascular
[1:02:57] disease. I've been a long-time
[1:02:59] spokesperson for the American Heart
[1:03:00] Association and our Go Red for Women
[1:03:02] campaign. And unfortunately, we talk a
[1:03:05] lot or fortunately, we talk a lot about
[1:03:06] cancer and other disease processes,
[1:03:08] which is fantastic. But what I don't
[1:03:10] think we talk enough about is
[1:03:12] cardiovascular disease.
[1:03:13] >> Heart health.
[1:03:13] >> Heart health. It's just not top of mind
[1:03:16] for people in a lot of ways because it's
[1:03:19] a silent process until it's not. So, you
[1:03:21] can have problems building up and then
[1:03:23] you have a heart attack or you have a
[1:03:24] stroke or and suddenly we realize you
[1:03:28] have underlying disease that you didn't
[1:03:29] know about. Um but it is so important
[1:03:32] and one of the great things about
[1:03:33] cardiology is that we can do so much in
[1:03:35] terms of prevention. So, by identifying
[1:03:38] risk factors early and really teaching
[1:03:40] people how to manage those, we can
[1:03:41] hopefully prevent them from ever having
[1:03:43] one of those events where the heart
[1:03:45] cells die or the brain cells die. But it
[1:03:47] truly is um your biggest health You're a
[1:03:49] biggest health threat, my biggest health
[1:03:51] threat.
[1:03:51] >> Okay, so Tara as a cardiologist then is
[1:03:54] it possible for someone to die from a
[1:03:56] broken heart?
[1:03:57] >> Yeah, well that the stress-induced heart
[1:03:59] attack I told you about is often called
[1:04:00] broken heart syndrome.
[1:04:01] >> Really?
[1:04:02] >> Yes, because we do see it a lot if a
[1:04:04] partner or spouse has just died and that
[1:04:06] person is grieving and they will they
[1:04:08] can have a heart attack themselves.
[1:04:10] >> And die like shortly after.
[1:04:11] >> Yeah. They it I mean usually you recover
[1:04:13] from the broken heart syndrome, but not
[1:04:14] everyone does.
[1:04:15] >> You've seen it before?
[1:04:16] >> Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
[1:04:17] >> That's crazy. So, they could be
[1:04:19] physically healthy.
[1:04:20] >> Totally fine and just again the massive
[1:04:22] release of that epinephrine
[1:04:24] norepinephrine we think from the brain
[1:04:26] that you know, the brain is where you
[1:04:27] process your kind of feelings and fear
[1:04:29] and emotions
[1:04:30] in the hypothalamus and the pituitary
[1:04:32] release hormones that then go to your
[1:04:34] adrenal gland that causes your adrenal
[1:04:35] gland to release the epinephrine and the
[1:04:37] adrenaline and the norepinephrine and
[1:04:38] the cortisol and that flood stuns the
[1:04:42] heart and causes this stress-induced
[1:04:45] broken heart syndrome.
[1:04:47] >> It's cool.
[1:04:48] So, learning resilience before you need
[1:04:51] it is really the key.
[1:04:52] >> Learning resilience before you need it.
[1:04:55] Yes, getting these strategies in place,
[1:04:56] knowing that you are empowered
[1:04:58] >> when something happens.
[1:05:00] >> Yes, and practicing them. Because it's
[1:05:02] not easy. It's not easy to uh
[1:05:04] >> Not easy.
[1:05:04] >> to think flexibly and to go to therapy
[1:05:07] and to stay fit, that's another one in
[1:05:08] there. Exercising, sleeping, eating
[1:05:10] well. All this is hard work. It takes
[1:05:13] like mental and physical effort to do
[1:05:16] these tools and strategies, but the
[1:05:18] payoff is massive, the investment in
[1:05:21] building those resilient skills.
[1:05:23] >> You might be able to help me with
[1:05:24] understanding what happened to me one
[1:05:25] time. I was
[1:05:27] going through um
[1:05:29] a challenging breakup, right?
[1:05:33] And I was doing therapy for months.
[1:05:36] Very intense therapy. Like weekends, 6
[1:05:38] to 8 hour sessions. Like I was like I
[1:05:41] want to find peace. I want to find
[1:05:42] clarity. I want to find freedom cuz I
[1:05:43] don't have it.
[1:05:44] >> Yeah.
[1:05:45] >> And I was dealing with
[1:05:46] a breakup I was going through.
[1:05:48] I was doing therapy in the relationship,
[1:05:50] but then the relationship ended and I
[1:05:52] was still doing it afterwards and I was
[1:05:53] like, why am I still and my heart was
[1:05:55] feeling like it was so tight.
[1:05:57] >> Mhm.
[1:05:58] >> For like years, right? In different
[1:06:00] relationships. And it was like, why is
[1:06:02] it so hard? And when I was single, I
[1:06:04] didn't have the pain. But when I had a
[1:06:05] relationship, I was like constricted.
[1:06:08] And I remember one session I was doing
[1:06:09] in therapy, it was like I was feeling
[1:06:11] this chest pain, this kind of this
[1:06:12] heaviness.
[1:06:14] But I was super healthy and fit, but I
[1:06:16] was feeling this emotional weight and
[1:06:17] like a pain in my chest. And something
[1:06:20] finally clicked in therapy for me, where
[1:06:22] in that moment I was sitting across my
[1:06:24] my coach and therapist
[1:06:26] and the things we were talking about,
[1:06:28] it's almost like I finally
[1:06:31] got it and I integrated like what I was
[1:06:33] learning into my mind and my body.
[1:06:37] And it was the weirdest sensation. I've
[1:06:38] only felt this once in my life.
[1:06:40] It was almost like my heart popped and I
[1:06:42] felt a rush of what felt like plasma or
[1:06:45] some type of rushing goo throughout my
[1:06:47] whole body, where I felt I hurt myself.
[1:06:50] >> Mhm.
[1:06:51] >> But it was like within minutes, it was
[1:06:53] like, I have no chest pain.
[1:06:57] And I've never felt pain in my chest
[1:06:58] since. And it was years ago.
[1:07:00] And I don't know what happened or
[1:07:02] medically if there's a terminology for
[1:07:03] this, where it's like your heart
[1:07:05] literally explodes, but maybe in a good
[1:07:07] way.
[1:07:08] Is there something that this is
[1:07:09] >> There's no medical terminology for that,
[1:07:11] but I will tell you people can
[1:07:12] absolutely experience chest pain,
[1:07:15] pressure, tightness, squeezing just from
[1:07:16] stress. So, I have a lot of patients
[1:07:18] where we'll do a scan or imaging of
[1:07:20] their heart because we think it could be
[1:07:21] disease and it's not. And so, a lot of
[1:07:25] time In fact, I had chest pain at one
[1:07:27] point and I thought it was my heart and
[1:07:29] we did a scan and and it was under a
[1:07:31] time of stress. So, it is a real
[1:07:32] phenomenon where you can feel that kind
[1:07:35] of tightness or squeezing. A lot of
[1:07:36] times we can see the very small blood
[1:07:38] vessels that go to the heart. We call
[1:07:39] them micro vessels or microvasculature
[1:07:41] can be dysfunctional and we can see that
[1:07:44] under times of stress. People can get
[1:07:46] vasospasm, which is spasm of the
[1:07:48] vessels.
[1:07:49] Um so, again, there can be real
[1:07:51] biological impacts to the small vessels
[1:07:54] or the bigger vessels when you're under
[1:07:56] stress and it may not result in a heart
[1:07:58] attack, but you you feel it here. And
[1:08:00] so, I think what you just explained and
[1:08:02] what you spoke to is the power of
[1:08:05] mental release.
[1:08:06] >> It's like I finally got it and like
[1:08:08] almost almost like the fear was gone.
[1:08:10] >> Right.
[1:08:10] >> It's like mentally I finally was like,
[1:08:12] "Oh, I'm going to be okay.
[1:08:14] I'm enough. I'm lovable." All these
[1:08:16] different things, these insecurities,
[1:08:18] fears that I was dealing with in in
[1:08:19] relationships.
[1:08:21] It was like, "Oh, I'm going to be okay."
[1:08:22] It was almost like I understood
[1:08:25] resilience. Like, "I'm going to be okay
[1:08:26] no matter what happens."
[1:08:27] >> Exactly.
[1:08:28] >> This works out, it doesn't work out, I'm
[1:08:30] I'm alone forever, I'm you know,
[1:08:31] whatever it might be. I'm going to be
[1:08:33] okay.
[1:08:33] >> And that's the power of therapy.
[1:08:35] >> Yes.
[1:08:35] >> Yes.
[1:08:36] >> And the tools that I was learning are a
[1:08:37] lot of tools that you have in your book,
[1:08:38] The Healing Power of Resilience.
[1:08:40] >> I have a lot of patients just like that
[1:08:42] who will have chest pain for like months
[1:08:43] and months. We don't find anything quote
[1:08:46] tangible and then they go to therapy or
[1:08:49] the stressor goes away or they fix
[1:08:51] whatever was causing stress and then
[1:08:52] they come and see me and they say, "I
[1:08:53] don't I don't have the pain anymore."
[1:08:55] >> That's interesting.
[1:08:55] >> It's gone.
[1:08:56] >> So, a lot of this pain, I feel like
[1:08:58] comes from how we interpret life's
[1:09:01] events.
[1:09:02] >> Yeah.
[1:09:02] >> interpret what is happening or what
[1:09:05] might happen or won't happen.
[1:09:06] >> Our response to the stress.
[1:09:08] >> It's crazy, isn't it?
[1:09:09] >> It's it's so important. I don't know why
[1:09:11] this isn't hardwired into how we teach
[1:09:14] our physicians to help patients because
[1:09:18] people are suffering. People are having
[1:09:20] chest pain for months and we we're not
[1:09:22] helping them. But therapy
[1:09:24] >> Help.
[1:09:25] >> Talking through things, CBT therapy,
[1:09:27] changing how you respond to those
[1:09:29] feelings,
[1:09:30] um your behaviors, all of that can have
[1:09:32] a massive impact. And really at the end
[1:09:33] of the day it's about your quality of
[1:09:34] life, right? That's what I want to
[1:09:36] That's what I want to give my patients.
[1:09:38] That's what my patients want. A lot of
[1:09:39] what I took for the book was from the
[1:09:41] field of palliative care. Palliative
[1:09:43] care is a field of medicine devoted to
[1:09:45] helping people at the end of life find
[1:09:48] meaning in life. And it was so important
[1:09:50] for me because that's really what
[1:09:51] everyone wants. We all want to be able
[1:09:53] to still
[1:09:55] be happy and have a great quality of
[1:09:56] life even if something really difficult
[1:09:58] has happened or our whole life has been
[1:10:01] upended. We want to be able to enjoy it.
[1:10:05] And when you're suffering under the
[1:10:07] weight of fear and anxiety and your own
[1:10:10] mind, you you can't be a participant in
[1:10:13] life. You are literally not a player in
[1:10:15] the game. And then something like that,
[1:10:17] a therapist. One therapist I had a
[1:10:19] wonderful therapist that I credit so
[1:10:21] much of my own healing to
[1:10:24] help me in so many ways that you're back
[1:10:27] in the game and you're able to get into
[1:10:29] a relationship that's healthy and
[1:10:31] experience
[1:10:32] life the way it's meant to be lived.
[1:10:34] >> Yeah.
[1:10:35] It's almost like if you can master your
[1:10:36] mind, you can master anything.
[1:10:38] >> That is true.
[1:10:39] >> I really like the idea of your next book
[1:10:41] being around faith-based healing.
[1:10:44] Like you you studied that in college.
[1:10:45] >> I I didn't really study it. I've just
[1:10:47] always been like
[1:10:48] I'm very spiritual person and I believe
[1:10:51] that there's real value to it and so
[1:10:53] I've kind of always opened the door to
[1:10:55] really talking about that with my
[1:10:57] patients if they're interested in
[1:10:58] talking about it.
[1:10:59] >> really believe that healing is a
[1:11:00] spiritual journey. You know, it's like
[1:11:02] sure we're healing the material body,
[1:11:05] but there's a spiritual element to
[1:11:06] healing that I think
[1:11:08] allows for the body to heal is through
[1:11:11] spirituality in my mind. I love to see
[1:11:13] more research on that and maybe that's
[1:11:15] something you can tackle in the future,
[1:11:17] but people can get the book. It's out
[1:11:19] right now, The Healing Power of
[1:11:20] Resilience, A New Prescription for
[1:11:22] Health and Well-Being
[1:11:23] and they can follow you, Dr. Tara
[1:11:26] Narula on social media. Do you have a
[1:11:28] website also people can go and check
[1:11:31] out?
[1:11:31] >> but I'm on Facebook, Instagram,
[1:11:34] X, LinkedIn. Yeah, and you can catch me
[1:11:37] on ABC News, usually on Good Morning
[1:11:39] America, but sometimes elsewhere on
[1:11:42] their other platforms.
[1:11:43] >> cool.
[1:11:44] Um, couple final questions for you.
[1:11:46] Uh, this is called the three truths. So,
[1:11:48] imagine hypothetically you get to live
[1:11:49] as long as you want.
[1:11:51] Live the most incredible life from now
[1:11:53] until the moment you die.
[1:11:54] >> Okay.
[1:11:55] >> Um, but it's your last day on Earth and
[1:11:57] for whatever reason all your content is
[1:11:59] erased from this world. This
[1:12:01] conversation, your books, anything
[1:12:02] you've ever said, gone. Hypothetical.
[1:12:05] But you get to leave behind three
[1:12:06] lessons to the world, three truths. What
[1:12:08] would those be for you?
[1:12:09] >> One would be love is the most important
[1:12:11] thing. I think that we are on this
[1:12:13] planet to love our learn to love
[1:12:16] ourselves and learn how to love others.
[1:12:18] Um, so I think love is is the reason we
[1:12:20] are here.
[1:12:22] Uh, the second one would be about
[1:12:25] learning to find your passion and
[1:12:27] purpose in life and go after it. Uh,
[1:12:29] really
[1:12:31] nurturing that. Because I think when you
[1:12:33] don't, you don't feel fulfilled in life.
[1:12:37] And again, we have this beautiful chance
[1:12:39] to be on this Earth, so make the most of
[1:12:41] it.
[1:12:41] >> Yeah.
[1:12:42] >> And then I think the third would be
[1:12:43] about being grateful. Uh, we don't we
[1:12:46] talk a lot about gratitude, but not
[1:12:48] enough about gratitude and I think
[1:12:49] gratitude is actually another tool to
[1:12:52] help us feel less stressed when we
[1:12:54] notice those things
[1:12:56] that are really awesome that happen to
[1:12:57] us in life. And they can be really tiny
[1:12:59] things or really big things, but really
[1:13:01] putting your focus intentionally on
[1:13:03] those
[1:13:05] great things that do happen to us. And
[1:13:06] for all of us, there are great things
[1:13:07] that happen.
[1:13:08] >> Mhm.
[1:13:09] >> Um would be a really important lesson.
[1:13:11] >> I mean, I guess if you feel like you're
[1:13:12] going through a stressful time in life,
[1:13:14] you could always go to a hospital
[1:13:16] and see what people are dealing with in
[1:13:18] a hospital, you know, and maybe as a
[1:13:20] doctor you could just see like
[1:13:21] >> I see it all.
[1:13:22] >> Gosh, every day you see challenges with
[1:13:24] people and hopefully people healing as
[1:13:25] well after they come and see you a bunch
[1:13:27] of times, but it's like go to a hospital
[1:13:30] and see if your problems are as big as
[1:13:31] you think they are.
[1:13:32] >> I see so much, Lewis. You know, I think
[1:13:35] as a doctor we all physicians see so
[1:13:38] much. And it's hard sometimes because
[1:13:42] people deal with incredible amounts of
[1:13:45] difficulty, whether that's in their
[1:13:47] social life or their physical world, and
[1:13:50] suffering and heartache. Um and to me,
[1:13:54] uh
[1:13:55] I love working to be a healer, and I
[1:13:57] think we can all be healers for other
[1:13:59] people
[1:14:00] for just listening to them and walking
[1:14:03] with them and being there for them. Um I
[1:14:07] I think a lot about my one patient. Um I
[1:14:10] love this where he I'm his cardiologist.
[1:14:14] And his wife is my patient. And he has
[1:14:17] Parkinson's. And he's been slowly
[1:14:21] deteriorating in terms of his ability to
[1:14:23] function with his disease over the last
[1:14:26] year. And at one of his visits, he came
[1:14:29] to see me, and he was sitting in the
[1:14:30] exam table, and his wife was sitting in
[1:14:32] the chair.
[1:14:33] And he said, I said, "Do you have any
[1:14:35] more questions?" cuz we had wrapped up
[1:14:36] the cardiology part, and he said, "Dr.
[1:14:38] Narula, um I just
[1:14:40] I'm writing a book, and I still have so
[1:14:42] much more that I want to write. And I
[1:14:45] love my wife, and I have so much time
[1:14:47] that I want to spend with her, and I
[1:14:49] want to see this part of the country,
[1:14:51] and there's so much more that I want to
[1:14:53] do. How do I not lose hope?
[1:14:56] And I
[1:14:58] sat there in that moment, not as his
[1:14:59] neurologist who was treating his
[1:15:01] Parkinson's, but just as another human,
[1:15:04] hoping I could say the right words that
[1:15:06] would help him in that moment. And I
[1:15:09] said,
[1:15:10] "You know, you find hope in the small
[1:15:12] daily wins. You find it in the evenings
[1:15:15] when you can hold her hand. You find it
[1:15:17] in the next chapter you're going to
[1:15:19] write tonight. You find it in the idea
[1:15:21] that tomorrow there might be some other
[1:15:23] cure that comes around the bend for this
[1:15:25] aspect of your Parkinson's. You find it
[1:15:27] in the days that you still can get up
[1:15:29] and walk and play ping-pong, which he
[1:15:31] loves to do. That's where you find your
[1:15:34] hope, and you hold on to that." And
[1:15:37] I think that just speaks to
[1:15:39] um not only the power of hope, but I
[1:15:42] know that that conversation was
[1:15:44] meaningful for me, and I think it was
[1:15:46] meaningful for him. And we can all do
[1:15:48] that for other people. We don't realize
[1:15:50] how much our
[1:15:53] little small conversations might impact
[1:15:55] someone. You think what you say maybe
[1:15:58] doesn't affect someone, but you have the
[1:16:00] power, everyone does, to change even
[1:16:02] just one person's life sometimes by the
[1:16:04] words that you say.
[1:16:06] And I think that's so important for
[1:16:08] people to know the power they have to be
[1:16:10] healers
[1:16:11] >> Yeah.
[1:16:11] >> for other people in their lives.
[1:16:13] >> Mm. That's beautiful.
[1:16:15] Uh Tara, I want to acknowledge you
[1:16:16] before I ask the final question for
[1:16:18] being an inspiration for you people to
[1:16:20] learn how to heal themselves because I
[1:16:22] think a lot of the times we don't feel
[1:16:24] like we have the skills or the knowledge
[1:16:26] or the tools, and we we need to go see
[1:16:29] uh a medical professional to look at
[1:16:31] these things for us, which is true once
[1:16:32] we get to that place.
[1:16:34] But if we can learn how to heal
[1:16:36] ourselves first, prevent these things,
[1:16:37] hopefully we don't have to go when it
[1:16:39] gets really bad. Hopefully we prevent
[1:16:41] things going bad
[1:16:43] and we can really
[1:16:45] create that inner peace that we need to
[1:16:47] to eliminate a lot of stuff. So, I want
[1:16:49] to acknowledge you for
[1:16:50] writing this book and for being a voice
[1:16:52] online and on the news of giving people
[1:16:54] tools on how to heal.
[1:16:56] >> And I I would just want to say, I mean,
[1:16:57] I'm not a psychologist. The this body of
[1:17:01] research really comes out of the world
[1:17:03] of psychology. And they've been doing
[1:17:05] this for the last almost 70 80 years,
[1:17:08] this growing research in resilience. But
[1:17:11] we have research there on Navy SEALs and
[1:17:14] POWs and 9/11 uh responders. We have
[1:17:19] psychology research that shows the power
[1:17:22] of our ability to build resilience like
[1:17:24] a skill and a muscle cuz we've seen it,
[1:17:26] we've done it in all of these other
[1:17:27] places. We just haven't put it out there
[1:17:29] for everyone. And that was really my
[1:17:31] goal was to say, "Gosh, we have all of
[1:17:33] this information.
[1:17:35] Everyone should know that they can do
[1:17:37] this themselves. They have that power in
[1:17:40] them. That resilience is is hardwired.
[1:17:42] It is innate for a lot of us, but it is
[1:17:43] so much a skill.
[1:17:46] Everyone should know that they can do
[1:17:47] this."
[1:17:49] >> Final question, Tera, what's your
[1:17:50] definition of greatness?
[1:17:51] >> I think that greatness is being
[1:17:54] authentically who you are and loving
[1:17:57] yourself for your flaws, your
[1:17:59] perfections, your imperfections, and
[1:18:01] same with the people in your life. I
[1:18:02] think that is a great person who can
[1:18:04] just be themselves and accept
[1:18:06] unconditionally and love the other
[1:18:08] people in your life. I think greatness
[1:18:10] is being a light in the world for other
[1:18:12] people, a healer, even if you are
[1:18:15] a healer for one person, that's great.
[1:18:17] And that's greatness.
[1:18:19] Um
[1:18:20] that's probably how I would define it.
[1:18:22] >> Oh. Tera, thank you for being here.
[1:18:23] Appreciate it.
[1:18:24] >> Thank you for having me.
[1:18:25] >> We've had a huge rise, [music] for
[1:18:27] example, in heart disease. We think, you
[1:18:28] know, we're improving heart disease
[1:18:30] treatments, we're getting better and
[1:18:31] better health care. We went from
[1:18:32] spending, [music] you know, $1.3
[1:18:33] trillion in 2000 to spending almost $4.9
[1:18:36] trillion in 2023 on health care. Most of
[1:18:39] that's for chronic disease. [music] Most
[1:18:40] of it's preventable. Most of it's caused
[1:18:42] by diet and lifestyle. And so we've seen
[1:18:44] a heart disease