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Watch

Spiritual Identity and the Ego's Sneakiest Disguise

Gaia
Gaia
Oct 7, 2026
9 min di lettura
Guarda · 7

A hug, as Kute Blackson tells it, has become a choreography. You no longer simply embrace someone; you position yourself, hugging on the left side, then the right, because that is where everything supposedly aligns. In a conversation with host Ben Stewart, Blackson argues that this is the moment spirituality quietly goes wrong: not when it is ignored, but when it is polished into an identity. Practice that began as a way of meeting life can harden into a costume, a set of rules, a social signal, and a way for the ego to feel special, safe, or superior. The remedy he points toward is unglamorous. Stop performing spirituality, and start living it in the ordinary, unphotogenic texture of a day, including the parts of ourselves we would rather not show anyone.

Lettura · 7 sezioni

Why Does a Hug Become a Ritual?

The image is funny because it is familiar. Almost everyone has encountered the person who has learned the vocabulary of awareness and now uses it as a badge: the right clothing, the right phrases, the right way of standing in a room. Blackson's point is that this is not a new problem. He describes his own upbringing as steeped in it. His father is a minister with 300 churches in Ghana, West Africa, and his mother, who is Japanese, grew up meditating in the Buddhist tradition. He recalls being a boy of six or seven and watching a crippled woman crawl across the floor, pick up the gravel his father had walked on, wipe it across her face, and stand up. It is a memory that does not fit neatly into a category, which may be why it has stayed with him.

His father's own story is the hinge of the family's spiritual history. Blackson says his father traveled to India in the 1960s, had an awakening experience, and came back without abandoning his churches. But the theology shifted: from what Blackson calls an old-school, hellfire-and-brimstone orthodoxy toward a view of Christ as a consciousness rather than only a person. Blackson grew up between two rhythms, church on Sunday and meditation at home, and he says the same lesson he absorbed from that mixture is the one he now wants to warn others about. Spirituality, he says, can become another dogma, "another attachment, another restriction," in which people get so attached to rules that they forget the living experience the rules were meant to point toward.

"You can't just give someone a hug anymore. You got to like hug on the left side, hug on the right side, because that's where everything aligns. And before you know it, now you're not living the true feeling and essence of what's authentic."

Kute Blackson, in conversation with Ben Stewart (Gaia, approx. 0:09 and 4:13 in the episode)

What Is the Purpose of Spiritual Practice, If Not Being Spiritual?

This is the sharpest line in the conversation, and Blackson sets it up with an analogy most people will recognize from the gym. The purpose of going to the gym, he says, is not to live inside the gym for twenty-four hours. The purpose of training is to develop strength, density, and stamina so that you can move through daily life more freely, more flexibly, and with more endurance. Nobody confuses the workout with the goal of having well-developed muscles to display at a party.

Apply that logic to spiritual practice and the confusion becomes visible. "The purpose of spirituality is not to be spiritual," Blackson says. He lists the things people accumulate in the name of the path, the chanting, the mantras, the Himalayan yoga, the meditation retreats, and then asks the question that gives the argument its edge: "I can open my pineal gland. But what's the point of that? What does that really serve?" For him, the test of any practice is not the experience it produces on the cushion but the quality of attention it brings to the next hour. "How am I living my life each moment, moment to moment?" he asks, and he answers that real spirituality is the capacity to see the divine in exactly that ordinary flow.

The analogy also explains why the talk keeps returning to the body. A practice that cannot be felt in the body, in the way you speak to a child or respond to a stranger's bad mood, is not yet doing the work it promised.

How Does the Ego Hide Inside Spirituality?

Blackson's most pointed observation is about where the ego goes when it is trying not to be seen. "The sneakiest place that the ego hides is in spirituality," he says. Ambition that once chased money or status can now chase the appearance of depth: the photo from the retreat, the pose on the mat, the detail that the phone was just happening to be in the room during meditation. Blackson laughs at the absurdity of it, but the point is serious. Identity is identity, whatever it is built on.

He describes performative spirituality as relying on comparison: what is everyone else wearing, doing, saying? The problem is not that the performer is necessarily a fraud. Blackson's observation is that such people often "are performing it but they're not aware that there's a shadow side inside them that is asking for a different kind of attention." In other words, the performance is a symptom. Underneath it is a need for validation, for disciples, for a sense of being seen as more evolved than others, and that need is precisely what the practice was supposed to illuminate rather than feed.

This is why he frames the work as self-examination rather than self-improvement. He speaks about looking honestly at his own identity, his fears, and his needs, and about unraveling the sense of specialness that can quietly attach itself to being on a path. The question he poses is not "Am I spiritual enough?" but "What is this spirituality protecting me from?"

What Is the Difference Between Awakening Up and Awakening Down?

The description of the episode introduces a distinction that Blackson develops more fully later in the conversation: awakening up into higher states, and awakening down into the messy reality of being human. Much of spiritual culture is organized around the first. It promises transcendence, expanded perception, and the sense of leaving the density of ordinary life behind. Blackson is not dismissing those experiences. He is arguing that a spirituality which only ascends can become a way of avoiding the body, the family, the unresolved hurt, and the daily friction that tests whether any insight has actually landed.

"Waking down. Not just waking up."

Kute Blackson, Gaia conversation with Ben Stewart (approx. 33:16 in the episode)

Awakening down means letting spirit inhabit the ordinary. He talks about parenthood and marriage as places where that happens, where he has been confronted by his own reactions and had to stop pretending to be above them. In this frame, the sacred is not something to be reached through a higher state; it is present in the shadow material we have been trained to bypass. The wellness industry, he suggests, often teaches people to skip that work, and the skipping is one of the things that makes spirituality look like a performance.

Can Acceptance Bring Real Peace?

The conversation's closing promise, as the episode description frames it, is "the profound peace that comes with total acceptance." That phrase needs careful reading, because acceptance is easy to misunderstand as passivity or as a new kind of spiritual pose. What Blackson describes is closer to honesty. Stop curating the self you present, and allow the full human to be seen: the anger, the envy, the ambition, the tenderness. He says that embracing "the full human" is where authentic spirituality begins, because it is the only place where a person can actually meet life as it is rather than as a story about how evolved they have become.

"Maybe the deepest spirituality" is a question worth sitting with on your own, and the conversation leaves room for that.

Kute Blackson, Gaia conversation with Ben Stewart (approx. 52:00 in the episode, partial quote from the published transcript)

Acceptance, in this sense, does not erase effort. It changes the reason for the effort. A practice done from identity asks, "How do I look?" A practice done from life asks, "What is actually happening, and how can I meet it?" The second question is slower and less rewarding on social media, which is precisely why it tends to be more honest.

What Does This Mean for Someone Starting Out or Deep in the Path?

The useful takeaway from this conversation is a set of checks rather than a doctrine. Notice when your practice has acquired rules you did not discover for yourself. Notice when you want others to witness your depth. Notice whether your meditation makes you more available to the people in your life, or more separate from them. Notice what you avoid when you are "spiritual," and whether that avoidance has a name.

Blackson's own framing suggests that the answers will often be uncomfortable, and that discomfort is information. The shadow is not an obstacle to spirituality; in his telling, it is one of the places where spirituality is most alive.

Where to go from here

If this conversation resonated, the most useful next step is the full episode, where Blackson and Stewart go deeper into the awakening-up and awakening-down distinction, the role of parenting and marriage in confronting the ego, and the practical question of how to stay neutral through life's ups and downs. The episode description also points to Blackson's upcoming transformational experience in Bali and to a free resource called 8 Levels of Gratitude, both linked by the speaker's team for readers who want to continue the work. Read them as invitations rather than prescriptions. Blackson's central challenge is simple to state and difficult to practice: the purpose of spirituality is not to be spiritual, but to live, moment to moment, in a way that the practice makes possible.

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Transcript

[0:09] Coming up today on The Pulse.

[0:11] >> You can't just give someone a hug

[0:13] anymore. You got to like hug on the left

[0:15] side, hug on the right side, because

[0:17] that's where everything aligns. And

[0:19] before you know it, now you're not

[0:20] living the true feeling and essence of

[0:24] [music] what's authentic.

[0:27] But I think there is this this inner

[0:29] thing that we all have that can sense

[0:31] like ah wait a minute what I'm doing

[0:33] [music] is performative [snorts] and

[0:35] it's not real. Do you have any like tips

[0:38] or things that like keep you on track

[0:43] [music]

[0:43] that he could look at someone and hold

[0:45] the

[0:47] ultimate truth of of the perfection of

[0:51] all and reflect that back to someone.

[0:59] Today I'm joined by a voice that cuts

[1:02] through the noise of the modern

[1:03] spiritual marketplace with rare clarity

[1:06] and compassion. Coot Blackon is a

[1:08] world-renowned author and

[1:10] transformational teacher who invites us

[1:12] to stop performing our spirituality and

[1:15] just start living it. He is a guide for

[1:17] those who are tired of the optimization

[1:19] trap and ready to face the messy sacred

[1:22] reality of who they really are.

[1:24] Together, we're going to peel back the

[1:26] layers of spiritual identity, explore

[1:29] the clever disguises of the ego, and

[1:31] find the courage to sit with the shadows

[1:33] that the wellness industry often teaches

[1:36] us to bypass. Welcome to the podcast,

[1:38] Coot.

[1:39] >> Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate

[1:41] it.

[1:41] >> Yeah. Well, let's just dive right in.

[1:43] Um, the the big topic of the day is

[1:46] spirituality versus spiritual identity.

[1:49] Um and so how can spiritual practice

[1:53] become a curated identity that helps the

[1:56] ego feel special, safe or you know

[1:59] better than others?

[2:02] Yeah. I think whenever we

[2:05] become attached to something, it can

[2:08] become a limitation.

[2:10] Whenever we become overly identified

[2:12] with something as a concept and hold on

[2:15] to it tightly,

[2:17] it restricts our authentic expression.

[2:21] In that moment, I would say we become

[2:24] frozen. We're no longer feeling deeply.

[2:28] We're no longer feeling authentically.

[2:31] We're living in the past. And I think

[2:34] many times true spirituality is a

[2:40] living experience. True spirituality I

[2:43] feel is a living experience of being

[2:49] connected to and in touch with

[2:53] with spirit with life with the true

[2:57] essence of one's being. And I think when

[3:00] we're truly in touch with the real

[3:04] essence of one's being and allowing that

[3:07] to inform us, allowing that to express,

[3:12] allowing that to move us, allowing

[3:16] allowing ourselves to be lived by you

[3:20] know that force of life itself which is

[3:25] living everything.

[3:27] uh then I think spirituality becomes

[3:30] something that is not uh uh a routine.

[3:36] Spirituality is then not something that

[3:38] is a performance uh or or a rehearsal or

[3:43] a dogma, right? But it's something that

[3:46] is living you and you're living in

[3:49] relationship to it. And

[3:52] it's not a museum of the past, you know?

[3:55] It's it's a fresh alive relationship

[3:58] with life itself and all of existence.

[4:02] And so um yeah, I think that I was

[4:06] thinking the other day as I go through

[4:09] my own evolution, you know, I've been on

[4:11] the spiritual path, you could say a long

[4:13] time. My father uh is a minister and has

[4:16] 300 churches in Ghana, West Africa. My

[4:18] first memories as a young boy was seeing

[4:21] I remember being probably six or seven

[4:23] years old and seeing a crippled woman

[4:25] crawling on the floor. She picks up the

[4:27] gravel that this man my father walks on,

[4:29] wipes it on her face and stands up. Some

[4:30] real stuff. And uh my mother is Japanese

[4:34] and she's Buddhist. You know, she grew

[4:35] up meditating. So I grew up with a

[4:36] father going to church on Sunday and

[4:38] mother was meditating and yet my father

[4:41] uh he went to India in the 60s had an

[4:44] enlightenment awaken awakening awakening

[4:47] experience came back kept his churches

[4:50] and his whole spiritual philosophy

[4:52] shifted from an old school orthodox uh

[4:56] hellfire brimstone religion to a much

[4:59] more uh spiritual tradition and Christ

[5:04] as a consciousness not just as a person

[5:08] and so I grew up in a very spiritual

[5:10] environment you know uh but I think

[5:12] sometimes we can get

[5:15] if we're not careful personally coming

[5:17] out of the church if we're not careful

[5:22] spirituality can become another dogma

[5:26] spirituality itself can become another

[5:28] attachment another restriction where we

[5:31] get so attached to rules and ideas and

[5:34] you or you got to walk this way. You got

[5:36] to, you know, if you're spiritual, hey

[5:38] man, Ben Ben, you got to wear the wear

[5:40] certain color, you know, don't wear

[5:41] don't wear black, don't wear only wear

[5:43] white. It becomes another another

[5:45] religion, another ism. Uh you you can't

[5:48] just give someone a hug anymore. You got

[5:50] to like hug on the left side, hug on the

[5:53] right side, because that's where

[5:54] everything aligns. And before you know

[5:56] it, now you're not living the true

[5:58] feeling and essence of what's authentic.

[6:02] you're living inside of all these

[6:04] identifications and identities that now

[6:07] it's just as limiting. It's just as

[6:09] imprisoning as old school religion. And

[6:13] and so for me, I think the the the

[6:16] purpose of spirituality

[6:19] is not to be spiritual.

[6:22] That's not the purpose of spirituality.

[6:24] For me, the purpose of it's like saying

[6:27] the purpose of going to the gym or the

[6:29] purpose of spiritual practice is not to

[6:31] be spiritual. It's like saying the

[6:33] purpose of going to the gym is so you

[6:36] can live 24 hours in the gym. That's not

[6:39] the purpose of developing muscles. You

[6:41] know, the purpose of doing yoga is to do

[6:43] your No, the purpose of going to the gym

[6:45] is to develop the the strength, you

[6:49] know, not so you can have nice muscles

[6:51] to show off the girls or or guys, you

[6:54] know, at the party. The purpose of going

[6:56] to the gym is to develop the strength,

[6:58] the density, the stamina so that in your

[7:01] daily life

[7:03] you can live more free, more flexible,

[7:07] more you know toned, more open, have

[7:11] more stamina, more endurance. That's the

[7:13] purpose of going to the gym. So I see

[7:15] the for many people the purpose of

[7:17] spirituality has become spirituality.

[7:20] Then I think we get so caught up in the

[7:23] chanting and the mantras and which I

[7:26] love by the way in the yoga and

[7:28] Himalayas and and the meditation

[7:30] retreats and then he open my pineal

[7:32] gland but like what's the point of that?

[7:35] >> What what what what does that really

[7:37] serve for me? The purpose then of true

[7:39] spirituality is

[7:42] the access to how you really live your

[7:45] life. How are we really living our life?

[7:50] I can meditate. I can do yoga. I can

[7:52] open my pineal gland. I I met the aliens

[7:54] in the fifth dimension of blah blah

[7:56] blah. But how am I living my life each

[7:59] moment, moment to moment to moment to

[8:00] moment to moment to moment to moment to

[8:01] moment to moment to moment to moment to

[8:02] moment to moment to moment to moment. To

[8:04] me, that is the real essence of

[8:06] spirituality is being able to see

[8:10] the divine, the spirit. It sounds like

[8:14] there's a listening there's a listening

[8:17] here to something different. Um because

[8:21] >> the the false spirituality or let's say

[8:24] the performative spirituality

[8:26] it does kind of rely on like well what

[8:28] is everybody else doing?

[8:30] >> Yeah.

[8:30] >> Are they dressing in white? Are they

[8:32] doing the iawasa? Are they hugging on

[8:35] the left side? all these things that

[8:37] they they

[8:40] a lot of the times I notice the people

[8:42] that are performative like this they're

[8:44] doing so for their phone so it could go

[8:47] on social media they're doing so so they

[8:50] could have

[8:51] >> right well and so they can have

[8:53] disciples and they're not it's like they

[8:57] are performing it but they're not aware

[9:00] that there's a shadow side inside them

[9:02] that is asking for a different kind of

[9:05] attention

[9:06] It's another kind of it's like it's like

[9:08] here I am by the way. I'm just

[9:10] meditating. Look how spiritual I I just

[9:12] I just happen to have my phone while I'm

[9:14] in the middle of my meditation. It's

[9:16] like how did you have your phone in the

[9:17] middle of your meditation? And so many

[9:19] times it it it's it becomes the the

[9:24] sneakiest place that the ego hides is in

[9:28] spirituality. And if we're not aware, it

[9:31] becomes another form of egoism,

[9:35] egleness, right? It becomes another

[9:38] addiction, another validation seeking.

[9:42] And identity is identity. Whether you're

[9:44] chasing a zillion dollars or whether

[9:47] you're doing the meditation retreat

[9:48] oming and going here's my photo and let

[9:51] me do this yoga pose and show my ass and

[9:53] let me do this yoga pose and just by the

[9:54] way here's my abs and let me you know

[9:56] and and so I think

[9:59] >> the ego if we're not aware the ego can

[10:02] use spirituality as another

[10:05] method of reinforcing itself and that's

[10:08] [snorts] where it becomes a performance

[10:10] rather than an authentic [snorts]

[10:13] experience. of connecting with source

[10:17] with the divine essence inside and we

[10:19] become more interested in having nice

[10:21] photos of looking spiritual. But the for

[10:24] me the question then is are you living

[10:26] spiritual and what is it to live

[10:28] spiritual? Is it that you can chant 17

[10:30] mantras and do and hold your breath in

[10:33] in an ice bath for 17 hours? So what

[10:37] >> the question for me is

[10:40] >> are you being kind, bro? Are are are you

[10:43] are you simply just being like while

[10:46] you're meditating that that that that uh

[10:49] single mother with two kids is tripping

[10:51] over her stroller and you're sitting

[10:53] there oming. It's like stop your oming

[10:56] and move into action. Stop your oming

[10:59] and move into love. So for me, real

[11:02] spirituality is a performance unless

[11:04] you're truly living it in daily life.

[11:07] And that's when I feel like

[11:10] then there's no separation between my

[11:13] spirituality over here and my life over

[11:15] here. When the two collapse, then

[11:18] everything is spiritual and nothing is

[11:20] spiritual. But the ego, the ego, this

[11:23] beautiful thing uh wants to use many

[11:27] times use spirituality as a [snorts]

[11:30] thing to feel special, to feel

[11:33] different, to feel, you know, to get

[11:36] something. And that's where the danger

[11:38] becomes and it becomes a performance

[11:40] becomes another identity. Look how

[11:42] spiritual I am and you're not. And to be

[11:44] honest, I'm going to bust myself. I have

[11:48] done that. You know, I went to India.

[11:50] Who has it? I wore the robes and I was

[11:53] like, look how unattached to my stuff I

[11:55] am and look how much I can namaste and I

[11:59] I I did it all. And I think through that

[12:01] process I had to

[12:04] uh

[12:07] unravel the layers of my own egoic

[12:12] attachment and egoic identity, you know,

[12:15] and uh and and and need of being special

[12:18] need.

[12:19] >> What was the tipping point to get you to

[12:21] realize that? Cuz for me, it's it's

[12:24] often times and I think everything that

[12:25] we're saying so far

[12:27] >> to me I've seen in action with otherwise

[12:30] well-intentioned people.

[12:32] >> Yes.

[12:33] >> Who simply they don't know what they're

[12:35] trying to mimic all the It's kind of

[12:37] like the finger pointing to the moon.

[12:39] We're all doing the same thing to try

[12:42] and get to this mystical kind of

[12:45] spirituality. Oh, like he's no, he's

[12:47] really enlightened. But what does that

[12:49] mean? How do I become that? And so we're

[12:52] all just practicing each other's moves

[12:54] in a sense. I like that you said that we

[12:56] practic it's you know it becomes that

[12:59] outside in approach

[13:01] of of oh that teacher or guru they walk

[13:05] a certain way right dal lama talks a

[13:08] certain way wait a second ekat he sits a

[13:11] certain way oh so and so you know chopra

[13:14] or you know that person they they they

[13:16] they

[13:18] you know do a handstand a certain way so

[13:20] oh if I that means if I can walk that

[13:24] way talk that way, move that way, you

[13:26] know, look that way, gesture that way,

[13:28] don't eat those foods, don't do that

[13:30] thing, then I'm spiritual too. Then I

[13:33] must be enlightened. But what we don't

[13:35] realize is many of the enlightened

[13:37] masters or truly authentically spiritual

[13:40] beings. Uh what we experience is the

[13:45] manifestation of their inner connection.

[13:48] And so to try to adopt that as a overlay

[13:53] and I think many times spirituality has

[13:55] become a fur coat or an overlay because

[13:57] we experience that being ticknak or

[14:00] someone who's just so zen and peaceful

[14:02] and then if we see them and now we want

[14:04] the shortcut to that give me the biohack

[14:06] three-step hack to get to that

[14:08] peacefulness

[14:10] >> but we don't necessarily do the internal

[14:12] work the inner mental emotional

[14:14] spiritual psych psychological inner work

[14:17] to remove certain blockages, the

[14:19] meditation, what have you to connect

[14:20] authentically. But we we now do an

[14:22] overlay of I'm going to walk that way.

[14:25] But just performing and walking that way

[14:28] doesn't make you truly that or

[14:31] spiritual. You're acting that way. And I

[14:34] and and I've been guilty of that. And I

[14:36] see many folks acting spiritual and

[14:39] performing spiritual and doing spiritual

[14:42] rather than truly resting in the

[14:45] inherent

[14:47] essence of themselves as true truly we

[14:50] are spirit you know one. And so that

[14:53] that that's a it becomes an outside in

[14:56] approach rather than an internal

[15:00] flowering, an internal connection that

[15:03] that that moves from the inside out

[15:06] because how it might how how you might

[15:09] express right from your own authentic

[15:12] expression and your own spirit through

[15:14] your mind body mechanism may look quite

[15:16] different than the way I express and how

[15:19] echo express and how you know uh uh

[15:23] Roshi so and so expresses how Daly Labra

[15:26] expresses it's all going to spirit will

[15:28] express through the mind body mechanism

[15:30] and in different ways and I think you

[15:32] could say part of authentic I think

[15:35] spirituality is the authentic part

[15:40] >> is I want to I want to drill into that

[15:42] authentic part there's a couple things

[15:44] that I want to kind of maybe like give

[15:46] examples for the audience because like

[15:48] and I'm I'm a kind of maybe even like

[15:51] you a straight to the jugular kind of

[15:53] guy.

[15:54] >> For me,

[15:55] >> if your clothes look like you're at

[15:58] Burning Man, but you're not at Burning

[16:00] Man, for one, [laughter]

[16:02] if you overt talk and and your your key

[16:05] is to try and be really eloquent and

[16:07] know everything that you could find on

[16:09] Instagram and YouTube rather than what

[16:12] you said like, you know, meditating,

[16:13] you're in samati and and somebody over

[16:15] here really needs help. You're not in

[16:18] tune with the boots on the ground. what

[16:20] can I actually use my agency to do

[16:23] better to to make the world better

[16:25] rather than go within into this abstract

[16:28] space and when I'm talking I'm talking

[16:29] about let's say geopolitics and things

[16:32] that I have very little agency over

[16:34] while there's people in my neighborhood

[16:37] that could really use some assistance

[16:39] that seems like the authenticity is

[16:42] being really in touch with real needs

[16:45] rather than being caught up in this yeah

[16:47] but did you know what was going on in

[16:48] Iran and do you know you like and and by

[16:51] the way, do you like my mala beads? And

[16:53] you know, am I going to catch you at the

[16:55] next festy? These are all cool and I I

[16:58] don't mean to like smash on people who

[17:00] do these things because sure, like I

[17:02] I'll wear something like this and

[17:04] something like that. We we all want to

[17:06] dress ourselves up beautifully. But I

[17:09] guess the question I want to kind of ask

[17:10] is, you know, the what is the best way

[17:15] to for the lay audience to identify

[17:20] in themselves

[17:22] when like, you know, what are like the

[17:24] the key triggers that, you know, we

[17:26] could see like, oh, that's that's me

[17:28] being that way right now. Because I feel

[17:31] like often times, and I kind of just did

[17:33] it there, so I'm calling myself out.

[17:35] We're very much so pointing the finger.

[17:37] And I like how you said, listen, I've

[17:38] I've done all these things before.

[17:41] >> I too as well.

[17:42] >> But I think there is this this inner

[17:44] thing that we all have that can sense

[17:47] like, ah, wait a minute. What I'm doing

[17:49] is performative and it's not real. Do

[17:52] you have any like tips or things that

[17:55] like keep you on track? They that these

[17:57] signals come and you're like, "Oo, I

[17:59] need to I need to correct course."

[18:02] You know, I think we're like even now

[18:04] with with AI, right?

[18:07] You can just punch into AI, you know,

[18:10] hey, tell me the best philosophy of Alan

[18:11] Watson, blah blah blah blah blah, and

[18:13] you know, make me sound and all of a

[18:14] sudden AI will give you a script,

[18:16] >> right?

[18:16] >> That then you can recite and make you

[18:19] sound intelligent. But if it's not

[18:23] organically embodied for you, then

[18:27] you're just reading a script. you're

[18:29] just kind of an actor reading the

[18:31] script. And so I think for me

[18:36] there was a moment when you know from 8

[18:40] to 18 I read probably 600 books and in

[18:43] 18 to 30 I read no 18 to 25 I read

[18:46] another 200 books you know on

[18:48] spirituality and when I went to India

[18:51] and I was really in my spiritual

[18:54] identity phase the clothes the malabes

[18:56] the sandals the back all of that stuff

[18:59] the uniform I was so attached to that

[19:03] uniform for a sense of needing to show

[19:08] people how spiritual I was. I needed you

[19:10] to see it. I need you to to know it. And

[19:12] and so it was stemming from my own

[19:15] attachment, my own addiction, my own

[19:17] identity, my own need, my own fears,

[19:20] right? And and I think that

[19:24] what I had to do was I had to be willing

[19:26] to drop. Okay, that's what Chopra says

[19:29] and that's what Tolly says and that's

[19:31] what Neil Donald Wolf says and I'm good

[19:33] at paring that which is great and I

[19:36] can regurgitate it and parro it and

[19:38] sound great

[19:40] but what what's true for me? What's my

[19:45] own uh what's my own lived experience?

[19:50] And that's what I have to come to.

[19:51] What's my own truth? What do I what do I

[19:54] know? What what do I feel? What do I

[19:56] know from my own, you know, I can tell

[19:59] Ben about what chocolate tastes like?

[20:02] Because I read it in 1,700 chocolate

[20:05] books, but what's my direct experience

[20:08] of actually tasting chocolate? Even if

[20:10] it's limited, because if I if I can

[20:13] speak from my own experience, even if

[20:17] it's small, then for me it's true. Then

[20:20] I'm not reading a script. I'm not

[20:23] looking at what someone else is doing.

[20:24] I'm just speaking from my own authentic

[20:26] truth. And I think that is a process I

[20:29] had to go through, you know.

[20:30] >> What was the defining moment when you

[20:32] were like, you know what, these clothes

[20:35] aren't me anymore. And like this this

[20:37] way about me isn't me anymore. Like what

[20:40] was that moment for you?

[20:42] >> You know, I realized, wow, these are

[20:44] good questions. I haven't thought about

[20:45] this in a while. You know, I I I think I

[20:47] was in LA and I was really in my early

[20:50] 20s and

[20:53] everything had to be spiritual.

[20:55] It's like I couldn't, you know, I'm kind

[20:58] of exaggerating, but not really. Like I

[21:00] couldn't really just have a normal

[21:02] conversation, bro. You know, I I could

[21:05] it just had to be we have to talk about

[21:06] this high high consciousness stuff,

[21:09] otherwise it is a waste of time, you

[21:11] know? I couldn't just let's just hang

[21:13] out and just chill together. And and

[21:15] what I started realizing was I began

[21:19] even subconsciously judging those that

[21:21] weren't spiritual. You know, talking

[21:24] about enlightenment, consciousness,

[21:26] Ramana, Maharishi, Maharishi Mashyogi,

[21:28] Nagara Maharaj, and it's a they're

[21:31] freaking watching Seinfeld, man. They're

[21:32] those those lesser and I didn't say it

[21:35] that way, but if I'm honest, those

[21:37] lesser than normal human beings at a low

[21:40] vibration, low consciousness. And so I

[21:42] started noticing that and and what I

[21:44] started noticing which I see happen also

[21:48] now but I started noticing in myself

[21:53] what it started creating was a

[21:55] separation for me and people

[21:58] a sense of separation it's like I can

[22:01] only associate with Ben because he's

[22:02] like into Ramana Maharishi and Ram Das

[22:06] but the grandma walking the park and and

[22:10] the guy in the grocery thought I felt

[22:12] this like disconnect from because

[22:14] they're not as deep, you know, and and

[22:17] everything had to be deep all the time

[22:19] and serious. And so there was a

[22:21] separation I started seeing. It's like,

[22:24] wow, I'm judging and there's a

[22:25] separation. It's like spiritual, not

[22:27] spiritual, spiritual, not spiritual.

[22:29] [snorts] This is spiritual, this is this

[22:30] is this isn't spiritual. It was like

[22:32] this this that thing that was happening.

[22:35] And I began to

[22:37] I guess feel the disconnect in that if

[22:40] I'm honest. And and and rather than

[22:45] spirituality

[22:46] bringing me me closer to people and

[22:50] loving people and that sense of you know

[22:52] the real essence of spirituality is

[22:55] recognizing that we're not just this

[22:57] body and just this form that we are a

[23:00] stream of consciousness

[23:02] that is the inherent oneness of all

[23:06] things and your body and my body and

[23:09] Putin's body and Trump's body is They're

[23:12] just kind of apparent, you know,

[23:15] manifestations in this sort of sea of

[23:20] oneness. And ultimately the same life

[23:22] force breathing me, breathing you,

[23:23] breathing Trump, breathing Biden,

[23:25] breathing Hitler, breathing Putin,

[23:26] breathing Escobar, breathing, you know,

[23:28] P. Diddy, beefing everybody is just the

[23:31] same source. And

[23:34] I was getting so caught up in being

[23:37] spiritual that it was separating me from

[23:39] the true inherent sense of the

[23:42] recognition of the oneness of life. And

[23:44] so I think if spirituality is is truly

[23:47] the recognition of the oneness that the

[23:51] true like great talk about you hear

[23:55] yoga, you know, Maharishi, they talk

[23:57] about the oneness.

[23:59] I wasn't feeling the oneness, man. You

[24:01] know, I was talking about the oneness.

[24:03] Don't get me wrong, I was talking with

[24:06] my spiritual friends about the oneness,

[24:09] but my non-spiritual friends, I was I

[24:12] was not one with them. And so when I

[24:14] started to look at that, I started to

[24:16] see my own [snorts]

[24:17] spiritual ego, my own sense of how it

[24:21] was spirituality was actually separating

[24:23] me from people. And now I had to be

[24:27] really uh

[24:30] >> ruthlessly honest with myself, which was

[24:32] hard and it was painful to see, but I

[24:34] had to kind of get my head out of my

[24:36] ass, so to speak, and and just take a

[24:38] hard look at myself and go, "Wow, if

[24:39] spirituality is actually separating me

[24:43] from that oneness, to embrace all,

[24:47] what is that true spirituality?" And

[24:50] that's what that's where I had a bit of

[24:52] a wakeup call.

[24:53] This sounds very similar to mine and

[24:56] mine happened really quick. Um,

[24:58] fortunately [snorts]

[24:59] because I was in a band and when I had

[25:01] my spiritual awakening, the way that I

[25:02] talked changed and the amount of talking

[25:05] changed and I always had some wisdom to

[25:08] impart on people and very quickly my

[25:10] band was like, I don't want to hear any

[25:12] of that. We're on tour. Shut up about

[25:14] that stuff. Give me the the old real

[25:17] Benback. And I had to pause and really

[25:20] take into account like what am I doing

[25:23] that's creating such a reaction in them.

[25:25] And for one and I hope the listeners can

[25:28] see themselves in this and I hope they

[25:30] can hear the the thing that I say after

[25:32] this which is like we all go through a

[25:36] point in time where we want to share

[25:38] something. We really share it and we

[25:40] share it a lot. What I started noticing

[25:42] was that the people who are doing the

[25:44] performative side, when they want to

[25:46] share with you something, it's super

[25:48] deep. It's something that you can read

[25:50] about elsewhere. It has less to do with

[25:53] this now moment between you and I. And

[25:56] I've actually started to appreciate and

[25:58] feel like it's actually real connection.

[26:01] >> When you stay, I don't want to say

[26:03] shallow. Let's say you and I we just

[26:04] meet and this isn't a podcast.

[26:08] My questions could seem shallow, but I'd

[26:10] be like, you know, yeah, what's up?

[26:11] What's your favorite kind of music? Uh,

[26:13] you know, so what do you do on a daily

[26:14] basis because that's like a wide swath

[26:17] of let's just get to know each other

[26:20] casually before we drop into a rabbit

[26:22] hole on any one thing. And I was

[26:24] starting to drop into rabbit holes

[26:26] instantly upon meeting people

[26:28] >> and that kind of talking. People were

[26:30] just they had this knee-jerk reaction

[26:32] where they were just like looking for a

[26:34] way out of the conversation. Yeah,

[26:36] >> I see this a lot in the spiritual

[26:38] community and it's a cycle that I hope

[26:40] people can hear what we're saying and

[26:43] see some of it in them and not be

[26:45] ashamed. That's the thing is I I don't

[26:47] want them to feel ashamed for any of

[26:49] these things, but to acknowledge that's

[26:51] not the you that you're you're trying to

[26:54] allow uh you know people to access. You

[26:57] want real openness, real connection. It

[27:00] doesn't come from the things that you

[27:01] learn, the things that you wear. It

[27:03] doesn't come from those things. Do you

[27:05] seem really curious?

[27:07] >> Do you seem really genuine? And are you

[27:10] really genuine when you're just getting

[27:12] to know somebody? And if you overtalk,

[27:15] sometimes it could seem like that's

[27:17] because you don't seem to value what

[27:18] they may have to say. And if you don't

[27:22] ask many questions as you make

[27:24] statements, then you're really just

[27:26] filling up the space with what you think

[27:28] that person needs to know and seeing

[27:30] saying bye-bye afterwards. It's it's

[27:32] it's wild. But I wanted to like lay that

[27:34] groundwork um of what I've seen to see

[27:38] if there's there's any

[27:41] Yeah. I mean like is there anything

[27:44] along those lines that you've noticed

[27:45] that has also given you a little bit of

[27:49] compassion towards the people who are

[27:52] performative and like the need for some

[27:55] compassion.

[27:56] >> Yeah. I I think again that needs from

[27:58] compassion that the compassion has come

[28:01] because of seeing it in myself,

[28:04] >> you know, and and one thing I'll speak

[28:06] to is this this sort of need to be

[28:09] spiritual and this need to be special,

[28:13] >> you know, a need to be special.

[28:16] >> Uh it's a big one.

[28:17] >> It's a big one. It's like if I'm

[28:19] spiritual and I'm and I'm special

[28:21] because I I can float out into other

[28:24] dimensions and you know I'm not having

[28:26] this regular

[28:28] human talk, right?

[28:29] >> Yeah.

[28:30] >> And so I had to drop that need to be

[28:33] special a little bit, you know, and and

[28:35] it's it's it's growing up in a certain

[28:38] culture and with a father and

[28:41] I kind of had to unravel that within

[28:44] myself. And so when I see

[28:49] many times it's it's it's when people

[28:50] start the spiritual path that they they

[28:53] can easily get sort of hooked into oh

[28:56] this is what spiritual folks do and I I

[28:58] was an achiever in my Wall Street job

[29:00] and my you know sales job and I'll take

[29:03] that same egoic drive into spirituality

[29:06] and let me just compress time and wear

[29:09] the the the Illuminati clothes and wear

[29:10] the thing and do the thing and talk that

[29:13] rabbit hole talk and and and show how

[29:17] spiritual I am and how special I am. And

[29:21] so when I see that for me, I don't judge

[29:24] it because I'm I am it. I was it. I you

[29:27] know, I see it. And and and and I think

[29:29] recognizing

[29:31] often it's that ego need to feel

[29:36] acknowledged and special. And I think

[29:41] on the true authentic spiritual path

[29:45] that sense of specialness which also

[29:49] creates a subtle separation from me and

[29:54] you has to go. You know that's why I was

[29:57] telling someone the other day. Uh this

[30:00] might sound strange but

[30:03] I'm kind of getting bored of

[30:04] spirituality. [laughter]

[30:06] you know, you know what I'm saying? It's

[30:08] like I

[30:09] >> love spiritual. This is my life. But

[30:11] it's like I'm kind of getting bored of

[30:13] it. And and now it's so weird being

[30:16] married and having a son who's 3 years

[30:20] old and he doesn't give a about

[30:22] anything, man. He's just being himself.

[30:25] And uh it's been very humbling, you

[30:30] know, because it's it's it's it's

[30:34] it is the most human path

[30:38] of ordinariness,

[30:40] you know, changing diapers. that

[30:42] like that that's not spiritual, man. I

[30:44] mean, give me some highutin meditation

[30:46] just changing diapers. It's not

[30:48] >> I'm in it.

[30:49] >> It's I'm in it, too, man. and

[30:50] [clears throat] I'm changing diapers and

[30:52] I'm like not getting any gratitude and

[30:54] he's slapping my face and it's like I

[30:57] want to meditate and and even feeling

[30:58] those um subtler layers in me going

[31:03] and and then recognizing can I can I see

[31:08] the divine inside of this this this

[31:10] little baby my son right now.

[31:12] >> Yeah.

[31:12] >> And live my spirituality in that moment.

[31:15] And and so

[31:17] uh

[31:20] Babies know how to be present.

[31:22] >> Yeah.

[31:22] >> I have I have a one-year-old and and I

[31:24] have three older kids.

[31:26] >> The one thing I mean like he gets

[31:29] [snorts]

[31:30] when I'm anxious and he'll come up and

[31:32] kind of you know and for me that that

[31:34] starts making me more anxious when I'm

[31:36] trying to cook for him and I got things

[31:37] in my head and you know he's coming into

[31:40] the kitchen and grabbing my you know

[31:42] grabbing my pants and everything and

[31:44] trying to get me to go away. Like I

[31:46] noticed that like he he inevitably needs

[31:50] to know that like when you're a dad of

[31:52] the house or mom of the house, there's

[31:53] things that need to be done. So there is

[31:55] that like realization like I can't I

[31:58] can't be on my hands and knees with you

[32:00] every second of every day.

[32:01] >> Yeah.

[32:02] >> But I am present with you and he knows

[32:04] when I'm not present. That's the

[32:06] interesting thing about it. Um

[32:08] >> Yeah. And and for me it's been such a

[32:11] like like being a parent has been uh

[32:14] like part of the spiritual path is you

[32:18] could say unegoing yourself, [laughter]

[32:22] you know, and and and and a process of

[32:25] purification.

[32:27] And being a parent has been a real ego

[32:33] purification process.

[32:35] A and so even though it's not a

[32:38] spiritual path I think what I want

[32:41] people to understand is the sense of we

[32:44] have to let go of this is spiritual and

[32:47] this is not spiritual then

[32:50] the integration can happen when all of

[32:53] life

[32:56] becomes spiritual infused with like

[32:59] there's not nothing is spiritual

[33:02] and everything is spiritual and I think

[33:05] So often we've been uh focused on waking

[33:09] up, you know.

[33:10] >> Uh

[33:14] >> but maybe real spirituality is also

[33:16] waking down. Not just waking up,

[33:19] >> but down and and it's not always sexy

[33:23] and high vibes is just changing the

[33:25] diapers and living with kindness and

[33:28] being upset at my wife. But but okay let

[33:31] me let me let me extend some grace in

[33:33] that moment you know like living

[33:36] spirituality waking it down into life

[33:40] into the body so that any sense of

[33:42] separation between this is spiritual and

[33:44] that's not spiritual yoga mat Himalayas

[33:46] Tibet but like 2:00 a.m. in the morning.

[33:49] It's like it's all spiritual.

[33:51] Everything. There's not a moment that

[33:54] isn't spiritual. And you don't need a

[33:57] uniform or a you know mala bead or

[34:00] anything. It's just any moment that you

[34:03] that you're present in any moment you

[34:06] dare to open your heart in any moment

[34:08] you're recognizing or doing your best to

[34:10] just be here right now uh and live,

[34:14] >> you know, and live.

[34:15] >> Yeah. How do we so how do we use

[34:18] spiritual concepts to or what's the

[34:21] typical ways that you see that we're

[34:22] using spiritual concepts to distance

[34:24] ourselves from pain that's normal or

[34:28] responsibility or just ordinary

[34:30] humanness? I'm curious like do you have

[34:33] some examples of spiritual concepts that

[34:37] keep us from facing the very real stuff

[34:40] and the mundane stuff?

[34:41] >> Wow.

[34:42] >> Cuz you're just saying spirituality

[34:43] doesn't just live over here. It lives in

[34:45] the mundane moments even while you're

[34:47] wiping an ass and all those things.

[34:49] >> I've learned, you know, from my wife

[34:52] who,

[34:53] >> you know, isn't the sort of malabid, you

[34:55] know, floating in the she just like she

[34:58] lives. I'm sort of the spiritual teacher

[35:02] guy, right? And my wife has been the

[35:06] greatest teacher of my life because, you

[35:08] know, Ben,

[35:10] she doesn't she she doesn't she doesn't

[35:13] need to teach it.

[35:15] I need to teach it to to to to learn it.

[35:19] But but she's actually just lives it,

[35:22] you know, and and it's been it's so

[35:23] profound

[35:25] uh being on the receiving end of that

[35:27] and seeing that and learning from her.

[35:30] Uh and and so I grew up with a father to

[35:34] answer your question who was a god man,

[35:38] you know, uh I call him an African sid

[35:42] kind of Sai Baba meets TD Jake, you

[35:44] know, and and he would look at a person

[35:47] you cut I'd see people coming in in in

[35:50] uh wheelchairs,

[35:53] they hadn't walked in 10 years, look at

[35:55] them and say,

[35:57] "Why are you in this wheelchair?"

[35:59] No hesitation. Why are you in this

[36:01] world? But I haven't walked in in 10

[36:03] years, you know. Uh, stand up. Well, I

[36:06] have. Come on. I haven't. Do you

[36:08] believe? Yes or no? Yeah, I do believe.

[36:10] So, if you believe, then why the hell

[36:12] are you sitting down? Stand up. And so I

[36:14] grew up with this father who

[36:17] so, shall we say, transcended the human

[36:21] >> into that sort of transcendental realm

[36:27] that he could look at someone and hold

[36:29] the

[36:31] ultimate truth of of the perfection of

[36:36] and reflect that back to someone. And if

[36:39] they could see that and and and receive

[36:42] that a miracle happened and and and and

[36:45] they they chose to align with that and

[36:47] they stood up. So I go with the father

[36:49] who was so uh transcendental in a

[36:53] certain way which has a

[36:57] I mean it has its blessings. But I think

[37:00] the danger that I saw and I had to

[37:02] unravel also within myself and I see us

[37:05] in the spiritual community sometimes get

[37:08] caught in those loopholes is we then can

[37:10] end up as you said using spirituality

[37:15] to bypass

[37:17] real human feelings and emotion. It's

[37:21] all God. It's all good. It's all great.

[37:23] It's all perfect. Everything is always

[37:24] working out for your highest good. you

[37:26] know, a a and and so we can use these

[37:28] concepts to to not feel like you're

[37:31] heartbroken, you get a divorce,

[37:33] everything is always working out for

[37:34] your highest good, which ultimately is

[37:37] true. I mean, we we I sense, you know,

[37:40] it's there's a truth to it, but

[37:44] when used as a way to not acknowledge

[37:48] your human level feelings,

[37:51] >> Exactly. the pain, the humanity, the

[37:54] grief because we also live in this

[37:56] physical body that is a vessel that is

[38:00] kind of housing the vehicle for our

[38:02] spirit to navigate this 3D experience

[38:05] called life with uh when when we use

[38:09] those concepts as a

[38:12] bypass then it becomes an override that

[38:15] disconnects us from the human level

[38:17] feelings and what I've seen for many

[38:19] many many many spiritual folks

[38:22] my father included, many great sages and

[38:24] saints included, that we can open up to

[38:28] these higher realms of existence and

[38:31] consciousness and connect to the divine.

[38:34] But because we have not honored and

[38:38] embraced and loved and nurtured and

[38:40] integrated that into our physical human

[38:44] body, right? And we have not also not

[38:47] allowed ourselves to feel those

[38:48] feelings. So we're still carrying the

[38:50] pain, still carrying the trauma, still

[38:52] carrying the hurt. We're not integrated

[38:54] in many ways. And so you see many

[38:56] spiritual folks who are deeply

[38:58] spiritual, meditating 5 hours a day, 3

[39:01] hours a day, they've transcended, but

[39:04] they've not descended into the body and

[39:06] allowed themselves to feel the feelings

[39:08] to to to release the feelings in a

[39:11] healthy and authentic way. And

[39:13] [clears throat] so then we're carrying

[39:15] so much pain. So that even though we

[39:17] connect to the blue light, we're not

[39:18] able to hold that frequency in our

[39:22] everyday reality because when we come

[39:24] back into the body of the human vessel

[39:27] vehicle, it's full of pain, hurt,

[39:30] trauma, resentment, you know, grief,

[39:31] sadness, heartbreak that we haven't

[39:33] allowed ourselves to process. So then

[39:36] yes I think spirituality as magical and

[39:39] beautiful as it is can become a

[39:42] limitation and a disconnect from the

[39:45] full shall we say the full human

[39:47] experience the full human flourishing

[39:51] and I think human flourishing

[39:54] is is is the embrace of

[39:57] all of the human you know I think that's

[40:00] >> not just the pleasant parts

[40:02] >> not just the pleasant to bring you know

[40:04] to bring heaven on earth,

[40:06] >> you know, heaven on earth into the body,

[40:08] into the heart, into the shadow, into

[40:11] the And I think what we see in many even

[40:15] great spiritual beings, I mean, I could

[40:17] mention them, maybe, maybe not, it's up

[40:19] to you, but but many have fallen, you

[40:21] know, from the John of Gods of the world

[40:24] to, you know, on and on and on. Uh, I

[40:28] even found out many things since my

[40:30] father's passing about stuff that went

[40:33] down that's like

[40:35] >> dark stuff that went down that I had to

[40:38] reckon with.

[40:39] >> And I can see that many of these great

[40:41] beings opened,

[40:43] >> but they cut off from the neck down.

[40:47] Yeah.

[40:48] >> And they were living split. They were

[40:51] living transcendental but not integrated

[40:54] is the word. And I think as as as a

[40:57] spiritual community,

[41:00] as we move into the world that we're

[41:01] moving into, we we we we need to

[41:05] integrate

[41:07] into the body, into the feelings, into

[41:09] the emotion. not get lost there because

[41:11] the other flip side is you can get lost

[41:14] in the wallowing of your pain and your

[41:15] sadness and then you're caught density

[41:18] of the human emotion and you forget the

[41:20] transcendental deep reality that is

[41:25] >> life you know

[41:26] >> I think I think what I'm hearing is

[41:28] there's there's a balance and when we go

[41:31] into one extreme or the other whether

[41:33] it's too deep into the physical

[41:36] um the here's how I feel experience or

[41:39] too far away from it thinking that like

[41:42] everything is impersonal. I'm just going

[41:43] to cuz here's actually what I what I

[41:46] want to mention as one of the you know

[41:48] the final things that we mentioned the

[41:49] first few things like the malabads the

[41:52] way you uh dress the way you talk that's

[41:54] one thing but there are a lot of people

[41:56] who genuinely set out on a spiritual

[42:00] path and then it's not just the

[42:03] messianic complex but it's like I'm on

[42:06] this path and and it chose me and it's

[42:08] the yes I'm special but it's the also I

[42:12] need to tell everybody exactly what I

[42:14] think because God is moving me to say

[42:16] this. And I've I've had so many people

[42:19] because I travel, you know, I do

[42:21] speaking gigs for the past 20 years

[42:23] after making some documentaries. And I

[42:25] started noticing in this very space,

[42:29] everyone has been chosen and they are

[42:31] the whether they're like the

[42:33] reincarnation of uh something or in a

[42:35] past life they were Alexander the Great.

[42:38] And and to me, I'm always like thinking

[42:40] inside like you're amazing as you are

[42:44] >> without having to compare yourself to

[42:46] patriarchs of the past that have great

[42:49] uh prestige connected to them.

[42:51] >> So, there's kind of like this messianic

[42:53] complex. And I've seen very

[42:55] well-intentioned beautiful people

[42:57] >> turn into what you would call

[42:59] megalomaniacs, sociopaths in a way. they

[43:02] are that disconnected from others and

[43:05] everything that like I could see it and

[43:07] say like no that's just ego parading as

[43:10] spirituality but everybody else they're

[43:13] coming up to oh did you hear that they

[43:14] they just cut straight through the

[43:16] and I'm like yeah but that

[43:18] person didn't leave a better person

[43:20] having heard that they're broken and now

[43:23] they have no path there's nothing you

[43:25] know like hopefully somebody who sees

[43:27] what I'm seeing goes up to them and

[43:29] saying hey can I be with you through

[43:31] this hard process cuz that's that's all

[43:34] my kid wants when he scrapes his knee.

[43:36] It's there's no amount of talking or

[43:38] whatever. No, it's just

[43:40] >> hold me and shut up.

[43:41] >> And I'm I'm sorry to put it so bluntly,

[43:43] but

[43:43] >> that's real.

[43:44] >> I think that's the balance of

[43:46] spirituality that we're looking for is

[43:48] like, you know, when we go on this path,

[43:51] >> you mentioned like awa uh awakening

[43:54] down, not just waking up, but waking

[43:56] down. To me, that reminds me of a Carl

[43:58] Young quote. And that Carl Young quote

[44:00] is

[44:00] >> the branches of a tree can't reach to

[44:02] heaven unless its roots have reached to

[44:04] hell.

[44:05] >> And all that really says to me, take the

[44:08] biblical side out of it is there is

[44:10] balance. If you if you want to have

[44:12] some, you know, crazy spiritual idea and

[44:15] change the world, if you don't know how

[44:17] to talk to normies and if you don't know

[44:19] how to talk to them without triggering

[44:21] them, thus cutting off all real

[44:23] communication,

[44:25] >> that's not spiritual. That is not a

[44:27] spiritual win, right?

[44:30] >> And it creates more division and it

[44:31] creates Exactly.

[44:32] >> It creates more and and our world gets

[44:34] more and more divided. The spiritual and

[44:36] the nonspiritual versus embracing and

[44:38] the integration and that the oneness.

[44:41] You know, we we live in a world,

[44:44] how do I say this, of infinitely valid

[44:47] but simultaneously contradictory

[44:49] realities

[44:53] >> inherent in the nature of life. is and

[44:55] and and there's a tendency of like is it

[44:58] this or is it that you know it's either

[45:02] this or it's that but it's but but

[45:05] it's both is it up or is it down I is

[45:09] it's is it's both you know one thing I I

[45:12] kind of

[45:14] loved about being in India you know

[45:15] everything in the west is very linear

[45:18] it's like is it this or is it that is it

[45:20] this or is that it's spiritual or it's

[45:21] not yes or No is yet in India and you

[45:26] probably been to India you know

[45:27] everyone's like

[45:29] is this and is that you know is this and

[45:31] is that and so we live in this world is

[45:34] it's infinitely valid simultaneously

[45:36] contradictory realities is inherent in

[45:37] nature and I think part of the

[45:40] part of the spiritual path and part of

[45:42] maybe the freedom I is the ability to

[45:47] not just get stuck in this or that

[45:51] >> but Uh but

[45:54] live in the recognition that yes, we are

[45:56] all one. We are all divine beings. None

[45:57] none of this matters. None of it matters

[45:59] at all because

[46:01] >> nothing lasts. It's all impermanent. So

[46:03] don't attach to anything. And yet

[46:06] all of it matters. You know, my son

[46:09] here, my boy, I'll be with you forever.

[46:12] You know, my wife, I love you forever.

[46:14] And and it matters tremendously. You

[46:17] know, this moment is is everything. And

[46:19] so I think part of the

[46:22] part of what I've been learning and

[46:24] living more and more is none of it

[46:27] matters and it all matters and and it's

[46:30] not either or is infinitely valid and

[46:32] simultaneously contradictory and the

[46:35] ability to

[46:37] embrace it. Brace the both you [snorts]

[46:40] know and hold the both and live in the

[46:43] >> this is all a movie man. It's all a

[46:45] movie and it doesn't mean I'm going to

[46:47] sit here and not laugh. let can I enjoy

[46:49] the movie while also having the

[46:51] viewpoint that it's a movie and I think

[46:54] that's that's a part of the freedom and

[46:56] and and I'm reminded of when I was in

[46:58] India

[47:00] I had a I had a mentor when I was 21

[47:04] years old called Dwakoji

[47:06] >> he was a karma yogi so he was a former

[47:09] disciple of Gandhi served the

[47:11] underprivileged kids for like 50 years

[47:13] when I met him he was already 80 when I

[47:14] met him lived until 100ish thereabouts I

[47:18] got to spend and you know two three

[47:20] times a year hang out with him in India.

[47:22] Sometimes he came to the US a real man

[47:24] like a living Mother Teresa kind of man

[47:26] karma yogi a Gandian in his way of his

[47:30] philosophy he he he didn't have the most

[47:33] esoteric advitic concepts but he was

[47:37] just living love every day moment to

[47:40] moment unflinching and so when I was

[47:44] about 21 I decided to it' be a nice idea

[47:48] to go and be spiritual in India and and

[47:50] serve at his orphanage And I went to his

[47:52] orphanage and I thought it was going to

[47:55] be fun. I had these ideas of how it was

[47:58] going to be. His orphanage is opposite

[47:59] the Mahabhi temple where the bodhic tree

[48:01] is and the Buddha got enlightened in

[48:03] Bodgaya. It's a very sacred place. And

[48:06] after two weeks of trying to serve these

[48:08] kids and be there for these kids, I was

[48:12] exhausted, man. I mean, I was I was

[48:14] pissed off, mad, exhausted, uh tired.

[48:18] And I said to Dwaku G,

[48:21] let me let me let me I'm going to come

[48:23] back in [clears throat] about two weeks.

[48:24] I'm going to go I'm going to meditate at

[48:25] Mahabodi temple where Bodhi the the

[48:27] Buddha statue is the the Bodhi tree is.

[48:29] I'll be back in two weeks. And this this

[48:31] is another moment where my life changed

[48:33] where this 80-year-old man like a

[48:36] grandfather to me looked me in the eyes

[48:38] and he said, "It's it's it's okay that

[48:40] you go meditate by the by by the Buddha

[48:43] statue.

[48:46] do it. But just make sure that while

[48:48] you're meditating,

[48:50] your heart doesn't turn to stone.

[48:54] Because right here in this ashram,

[48:58] you look around, go, "See that child?"

[49:00] Goes, "I found her on my doorstep

[49:02] wrapped in newspapers. You see that

[49:04] child? We found her living in the trash

[49:08] eating rats." And he gave me the story

[49:10] on each kid. And I just was like, "Whoa,

[49:12] >> wow." and they weren't socialized, you

[49:14] know, so they didn't know how to

[49:15] interact and thank you and they and and

[49:18] he said, "If you look around," he gave

[49:19] me the story on all of these kids.

[49:22] And he said, "It's okay to go meditate

[49:26] the by the Buddha statue. Make sure your

[49:28] heart doesn't turn to stone because in

[49:30] front of you right here are living

[49:32] Buddhists, living Christ waiting for you

[49:36] to worship them, waiting for you." And

[49:38] it's like that was a moment for me where

[49:41] spirituality kind of

[49:43] >> descended you know and and and the the

[49:46] the beginning of that process started

[49:48] happening where it kind of went down and

[49:51] up and sideways and and an integration

[49:54] happened where something began to shift

[49:58] for me. It's like wow

[49:59] >> I can feel that that story struck me and

[50:03] >> yeah I have I have similar feelings

[50:06] about that. um the real living flesh.

[50:09] That's where the spiritual path really

[50:11] lies. Up by a Buddha statue. That's

[50:13] nice. Um dude, we've gone through the

[50:16] entire hour and I realize I barely asked

[50:20] any personal questions. Do you mind

[50:21] wrapping this up with uh some rapid fire

[50:24] questions?

[50:24] >> Let's do it, man.

[50:25] >> All right. Tell me one thing that a lot

[50:27] of people don't know about you.

[50:29] >> Wow.

[50:32] Uh I'm funny.

[50:35] [laughter]

[50:35] Well, I think we can tell. Check out

[50:37] your Instagram page.

[50:38] >> People think I'm like serious and I am

[50:40] quite ser but but like I think I'm quite

[50:42] funny. My my wife will tell you that I'm

[50:44] funny.

[50:45] >> I love it. Uh number two, do you have a

[50:47] practice? Uh you already covered

[50:49] meditation, but something outside of

[50:51] meditation. A practice fishing, skiing,

[50:54] >> non-negotiable.

[50:56] I exercise seven days a week. It used to

[50:58] be running. I've been running since I

[51:01] was 10, 11 years old. M

[51:04] >> and uh every day I I got I went from

[51:07] being fat as an 11-year-old kid running

[51:09] once around the block, twice around the

[51:10] block, three times to six miles a day.

[51:12] And I did six miles a day till I was,

[51:14] you know, 20 almost 20 years straight

[51:17] without missing a day, literally.

[51:19] >> And then I started switching it up to

[51:21] some weights and different, you know,

[51:23] different uh modalities. But I exercise

[51:26] every day and it it's it's in a strange

[51:28] way uh a real spiritual process for me.

[51:31] I feel I feel the same about that. And

[51:34] last rapid fire question. What kind of

[51:36] work would you be doing if you're not

[51:38] doing this?

[51:39] >> Wow. Uh

[51:42] I don't know. I'm going to say a couple

[51:43] of things. Uh

[51:46] I might be a

[51:51] financial investor

[51:54] guy because I kind of I grew up without

[51:57] any financial knowledge as a kid. We

[51:59] were just in the church

[52:00] >> and then I didn't invest anything. Now

[52:02] I've started and the process of like

[52:06] understanding a stock and using my

[52:08] intuition is kind of a spiritual process

[52:11] of like

[52:13] recognizing the market goes up and down.

[52:15] It's always changing. Don't get attached

[52:17] to the ups and downs. Be neutral with

[52:19] it, you know. And so I found investing

[52:21] to be quite

[52:23] >> quite spiritual in a certain way. Uh

[52:26] yeah,

[52:26] >> as a as a as a practice of

[52:28] non-attachment and and observation and

[52:31] awareness. So that that might be a fun

[52:34] thing that I I think I have the

[52:35] potential to be good at it.

[52:37] >> Dude, that's amazing. I I am literally

[52:40] in the same season of my life right now

[52:43] realizing the impersonal nature of the

[52:45] market, the psychological nature of the

[52:46] market, what conviction is when you

[52:50] like, you know, conviction is when you

[52:53] buy the dip and it keeps dipping. Do you

[52:55] double down?

[52:56] >> Bitcoin, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah.

[52:58] Yeah.

[52:59] >> Yeah. Dude, this is cool, man. I would,

[53:00] you know, we're gonna have to get you

[53:02] back. There's there's so much I don't

[53:04] think that we tapped into, but I just

[53:05] want to say this is a topic that is very

[53:08] near and dear to my heart because

[53:12] you need for, you know, let's say in the

[53:14] spiritual community, there's just going

[53:16] to be a face, but that that face often

[53:19] is hiding something. And under

[53:22] underneath that, if you can dig down

[53:24] into it, there is beauty to uncovering

[53:27] it. Often times, people don't want to

[53:29] touch the shadow stuff thinking that

[53:31] that's I don't want to muck my hands up

[53:33] with with stuff like that. I'm like,

[53:34] that's where the path really starts and

[53:37] ends. Um, so I appreciate deeply the

[53:41] wisdom that you shared with us. Uh, last

[53:43] thing I want to ask is how can people

[53:45] find you?

[53:46] >> Yeah, a couple of ways. Uh, Instagram,

[53:47] Coupe Blackon, my book, You Are the One:

[53:50] The Magic of Surrender. my main website,

[53:51] Kublaxon. Uh, twice a year, depending on

[53:54] when people listen, I do a retreat to

[53:55] Bali. www.boundlessblissbali.com.

[53:59] Next one is in December.

[54:02] Okay, I might have to consider that one.

[54:05] Bali in December sounds a little better

[54:07] than Nashville in December. So,

[54:10] >> um, man, this has been amazing. I just

[54:13] want to thank you for your time and um

[54:15] yeah uh basically

[54:18] these podcasts are really there to allow

[54:21] for this conversation to flourish and I

[54:23] think that what you have been bringing

[54:25] to the table today is is something very

[54:27] necessary for all audiences especially

[54:29] in the new age or spirituality community

[54:32] to listen to. So thank you.

[54:33] >> Well, thank you for having me.

[54:35] >> As spiritual author Jeff Foster once

[54:37] said, "Maybe the deepest spirituality

[54:38] isn't becoming someone new. is finally

[54:41] having the courage to be fully human. So

[54:43] for all of you at home listening, stay

[54:46] authentic to who you are. I'll see you

[54:47] all next time on the Pulse.

Gaia
ArtistGaia

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Spiritual-identityEgo-and-spiritualitySpiritual-performanceAwakening-downShadow-work

Hai domande?

Domande frequenti

In this conversation, Kute Blackson describes spiritual identity as the point where a practice becomes attached to a self-image, with rules, dress codes, and social signals replacing direct experience. Spiritual practice, by contrast, is meant to develop the capacity to live more freely and attentively in daily life. The distinction is whether the practice serves the person or the person serves the practice's image.
Blackson uses a gym analogy: nobody goes to the gym to live there for twenty-four hours, the goal is strength and stamina for ordinary life. He argues spiritual practice works the same way, and that its purpose is to make you more present, flexible, and open in each moment rather than to produce a spiritual persona.
The episode description frames awakening up as moving into higher states and awakening down as engaging the messy reality of being human. Blackson suggests spirituality that only ascends can become a way to avoid the body, relationships, and unresolved emotional material, while awakening down brings the sacred into everyday life and shadow experience.
Blackson points to signs like comparing yourself with others, wanting your depth to be witnessed on social media, and adopting rules about how to dress, hug, or act. He also suggests the performance often masks a shadow need for validation or a sense of being more evolved than others. Honest self-examination of those motives is the starting point.
Blackson says the sneakiest place the ego hides is in spirituality itself. Ambition that once pursued money or status can shift to pursuing the appearance of spiritual depth, through retreat photos, specific poses, or an identity built around being on a path.
The episode frames total acceptance as allowing the full human to be seen, including anger, envy, and ambition, rather than curating a spiritual self-image. Blackson suggests this honesty is where authentic spirituality begins, because it lets a person meet life as it actually is.

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Awareness Beyond the Person: The Direct Path to Universal Consciousness

At Monte Sahaja, a seeker discovers that consciousness itself—not the person—is the unchanging witness of all experience. A radical shift in…

1 min read
The Longing Behind the Glass: Why We Reach for Relief
Inspire

The Longing Behind the Glass: Why We Reach for Relief

Alcohol and other substances offer a fleeting escape—but what people are really seeking is freedom from themselves, a spiritual longing misp…

1 min read

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