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Inspiration

Your Personality Is a Trance:How Hypnosis Rewires the Self

Know Thyself
Know Thyself
Sep 1, 2026
10 min read

You walk around with a story about who you are—how you react under pressure, what makes you angry, what you're capable of, where your limits sit. Most people treat that story as fixed architecture, as real and immutable as the skeleton inside your skin. But a Stanford psychiatrist who has worked with thousands of patients over five decades sees something else entirely: your personality is what Dr. David Spiegel calls "a convenient assumption," a construction your brain assembles to simplify experience. Hypnosis, he argues, reveals this truth in real time. In a single session, who you believe yourself to be can shift completely—not through positive thinking or willpower, but through a deliberate retuning of how your brain distributes attention and connects to your body.

Read · 8 sections

What Hypnosis Actually Is (And Isn't)

The first obstacle most people face when they hear the word "hypnosis" is carnival imagery: a stage hypnotist swinging a pocket watch, a football coach dancing like a ballerina for audience laughs, somebody clucking like a chicken without their consent. Spiegel dismisses this readily. "Stage hypnosis is I don't like it," he says plainly. The problem isn't hypnosis itself but its misuse—using it to humiliate rather than empower.

The deeper issue is that stage hypnotists work only with the 5% of any audience who are extremely hypnotizable. They then selectively invite those rare subjects on stage. This creates the false impression that hypnosis is either rare or trivial. In reality, it's a learnable state—highly focused attention paired with a specific capacity: the ability to narrow consciousness, to place certain thoughts or fears outside your awareness temporarily, and to forge unusual connections between mind and body. "It's a state that many people, not everyone, but many people can enter," Spiegel explains. Think of watching a film so absorbing that you forget you're watching a film at all—you inhabit the story. Hypnosis works similarly, except the imagined world is your own nervous system, your own past, or a version of yourself yet untried.

Spiegel's clinical application is radically different. He uses hypnosis to help people manage pain, quit smoking, reduce stress, and—most crucially—reframe traumatic memory. The difference between stage work and therapeutic work mirrors the difference between a parlor trick and neuroscience: one seeks surprise; the other seeks liberation.

How Your Self Is More Fluid Than You Imagine

The most unsettling insight from Spiegel's decades of practice is this: people can change dramatically in a single session, releasing addictions, shifting personality patterns, or recovering from seemingly intractable depression. Each instance of rapid transformation points to the same conclusion: "We are a lot more tangible than we imagine." Your identity is not a cage. It's a habit, a useful fiction the brain maintains to navigate daily life. But habits can be interrupted. Fictions can be revised.

Consider one of Spiegel's cases: a woman who had been sexually assaulted at twelve by a landlord in her native country. The family did nothing. She grew up internalizing the assault as a mark on her character. By adolescence, she felt the world had permission to speak to her however it wished. She emigrated to the United States, found stable employment, and functioned adequately by every external measure. But internally, she carried chronic depression—a fog that no medication had lifted in over a decade of treatment.

Spiegel guided her back into hypnosis to revisit the twelve-year-old girl immediately after the assault. She began to cry. A less informed clinician might have stopped, assuming therapy was causing more pain. But Spiegel asked her one question: "Is that her fault?"

Her answer shifted everything. "No," she said. "I'm stroking her hair. I'm stroking her hair." In that moment, within the focused attention state of hypnosis, she moved from victim-blaming herself to comforting herself—from perpetuating the trauma story to witnessing and gentling it. A week later, she called Spiegel's office. Her psychiatrist had noticed the change immediately and wanted to know what Spiegel had done, because, as she told him, "I'm not depressed anymore."

This is not magic. It is neuroscience in motion. The self that carries depression, shame, and self-blame is not your only available self. In hypnosis, you can try on a different relationship to your own past.

Memory Is Not a Recording—It's an Emotion With a Story Attached

The reason hypnosis can rewire how a memory lives in you is rooted in neurobiology. Memories are not neutral recordings filed in some archive of the mind. When the brain lays down a memory and when it retrieves one, both processes involve the same regions that regulate emotion and affect. The emotion and the memory are inseparable. You cannot have a "purely factual" recollection of trauma; the feeling is woven into the storage itself.

This is why talk therapy alone sometimes stalls. You can intellectually understand that an assault was not your fault—can recite it, believe it, even write it in your journal—and still carry the felt sense of shame in your body. The emotional valence of the memory remains unchanged because you have accessed only the verbal, cognitive layer of the memory, not the emotional infrastructure.

Hypnosis works differently. By entering the state of highly focused attention and selective awareness, you can access the memory in a way that engages the same affect-processing regions that stored it. You don't just think about the memory; you inhabit it differently. And in that re-inhabitation, you can update its emotional meaning. As Spiegel describes it, you "enter" the memory, change how it feels, and fundamentally alter how it lives in you afterward.

Hypnosis as the Oldest Western Psychotherapy

Hypnosis is not new. It has roots stretching back to the 18th century and was adopted and developed by some of the founding figures of modern psychology. Freud used it. The fact that Spiegel must repeatedly clarify that hypnosis is legitimate, well-researched clinical work speaks to how thoroughly it has been buried under carnival mythology and psychological skepticism. Yet the evidence is robust. Spiegel has authored over 13 books and 400 peer-reviewed papers. He has worked clinically with over 7,000 patients. Reveri, the hypnosis app he co-founded, extends this practice into digital form—making the state accessible to people who would never find a hypnotherapist.

The irony is that hypnosis was nearly forgotten by mainstream medicine and psychology, despite its documented effectiveness, largely because of stage entertainment and the rise of pharmaceutical solutions. But in recent decades—driven by neuroscience and functional brain imaging—clinical hypnosis has experienced a genuine renaissance. fMRI studies now show precisely how the hypnotic state alters brain connectivity and activity.

What Happens in Your Brain During Hypnosis

Functional magnetic resonance imaging has revealed something striking: during hypnosis, the brain exhibits a specific pattern of connectivity. Certain networks light up while others quiet. One critical finding concerns what Spiegel calls the "My Fault Network"—regions of the brain that activate when we engage in self-blame and rumination. In people with trauma histories, this network can become chronically overactive, running the same tape of guilt and shame on loop. During hypnosis, activity in these networks decreases. The usual relationship between the executive mind (your logical, verbal self) and the body-centered, affect-processing regions shifts. You are not thinking your way into relaxation; your nervous system is being guided into a fundamentally different mode of operation.

This is why hypnosis can help with pain management—a patient doesn't learn to "ignore" pain through willpower; instead, the sensory signal reaches the brain but the emotional tag attached to it transforms. The pain is perceived but not suffered in the same way. The same mechanism applies to smoking cessation. A smoker in hypnosis can access the craving, the habitual reach for a cigarette, but place it outside the sphere of immediate action. They observe it rather than act from it. One of Spiegel's patients had smoked for decades and described the experience this way: "I didn't want to stop. I smoked since." He quit, not through gritted teeth and willpower, but by shifting how he stood in relation to the habit.

Dissociation: Survival Tool or Lingering Trap?

One of the most honest dimensions Spiegel explores is the shadow side of hypnotic capacity. A child who survives abuse by mentally leaving their body—dissociating, floating away, compartmentalizing consciousness—is exercising the same skill that makes hypnosis possible. The capacity to separate your aware self from sensory experience is, in that moment, a lifeline. It lets the child survive what the body otherwise cannot.

But in adulthood, that same capacity can become habitual. A survivor who learned to leave their body as a child may continue that pattern reflexively, even when they are no longer in danger. They may find themselves distant from intimacy, numb to their own desires, operating on autopilot. The question Spiegel poses is deceptively simple but profound: Is your current detachment a protective skill still needed? Or is it an old survival pattern running past its expiration date?

This is where hypnotic awareness becomes genuinely therapeutic. It is not about forcing presence or shaming numbness. It is about discerning whether dissociation serves you now, and if not, whether you might practice a different relationship to your body and experience. Some people, through hypnosis, discover that they have agency over this mechanism—that they can dial it up or down based on present need rather than living as a slave to an automatic response.

The Default Mode Network and the Problem With Overthinking

Brain imaging has also illuminated the "Default Mode Network"—the set of neural regions that activate when your mind wanders, when you are lost in thought, replaying the past or rehearsing future anxieties. In modern life, many people spend enormous mental real estate in this mode: running scenarios, rewriting old conversations, imagining what others think of them. The Default Mode Network can be useful for planning and reflection, but when it dominates, it becomes a source of suffering.

Hypnosis, by contrast, narrows attention into focused presence. You are not thinking about floating; you are experiencing the sensation. You are not analyzing the hypnotic state; you are inhabiting it. This shift—from wandering mind to focused attention—is itself therapeutic. It gives the brain, and the nervous system more broadly, a rest from the constant commentary and projection. And it opens a doorway to a different mode of knowing yourself: not through introspection and self-analysis, but through direct experience and somatic awareness.

Where to go from here

If you are curious about hypnosis—whether for specific goals like pain management, smoking cessation, stress reduction, or simply to explore the malleability of your own consciousness—clinical hypnosis is an accessible resource. Apps like Reveri bring guided hypnotic sessions into your home. A trained clinical hypnotherapist, ideally one with credentials from recognized bodies in the field, can guide you through deep exploratory work. The core insight Spiegel offers is this: you are not trapped in your personality, your trauma, or your habitual patterns. You have far more flexibility than you imagine. Hypnosis is a tool for discovering and exercising that flexibility—not through force, but through attention, imagination, and the innate capacities of your own nervous system.

Transcript

[0:00] your personality. It's just a convenient

[0:02] assumption. We are a lot more tangible

[0:05] than we imagine. You ever get so caught

[0:07] up in a good movie that [music] you

[0:08] forget you're watching a movie and enter

[0:10] the imagined world?

[0:11] >> Yeah, hypnosis is like that. I've done

[0:14] it with 11,000 people in the course of

[0:16] my career. It's a state that many

[0:18] people, not everyone, but many [music]

[0:20] people can enter.

[0:21] >> Could you quickly tell how hypnotizable

[0:22] I am?

[0:23] >> Sure, I'd be happy to do it.

[0:26] >> It feels like my left hand is kind of

[0:27] just doing it by itself. You're very

[0:30] hypnotizable. Your score is 9 out of 10.

[0:33] >> Great. I guess.

[0:34] >> Oh, it is.

[0:35] >> It can really help you do unusual

[0:37] things. For example, you can handle

[0:38] stress better. You can reduce pain.

[0:40] [music] You can stop smoking. Hypnosis

[0:42] can also help you get a new point of

[0:44] view about an old problem. One of my

[0:46] patients [music] was sexually assaulted

[0:48] as a 12-year-old. She'd been in therapy

[0:49] for more than a decade, and I got her

[0:51] hypnotized, and I said, "Is that her

[0:54] fault?" She said, "No." She called me a

[0:56] week later. She said, "My psychiatrist

[0:58] wants to know what you did to me because

[1:00] I'm not depressed anymore." That's a

[1:03] [music] tremendous ability. Empower

[1:04] their pan. I want to empower people to

[1:07] learn more about their innate [music]

[1:08] abilities. So, first look at me and then

[1:11] look up to the top of your head. And as

[1:13] you [music] keep looking up, slowly

[1:14] close your eyes.

[1:21] Hey everyone, welcome back to the Know

[1:22] Thyself podcast. Our guest today is a

[1:24] Wilson professor and associate chair of

[1:27] psychiatry and behavioral sciences at

[1:29] Stanford. He's the co-founder of Rey, a

[1:32] hypnosis app. He is an author of over 13

[1:35] books and 400 papers and over the past

[1:39] 50 years, he's seen thousands of clients

[1:42] in a clinical hypnosis context. Dr.

[1:45] David Pel, thank you for being here.

[1:47] >> Thank you, Andre. Um, it's a pleasure to

[1:49] be here with you.

[1:50] >> What is hypnosis and why should anyone

[1:52] care about it? Well, um, given the, uh,

[1:55] lovely name of your program, I like to

[1:58] think of hypnosis as knowing thy selves.

[2:01] That, um, hypnosis helps you become and

[2:04] explore things that allow you to try out

[2:06] being different. It's a state of highly

[2:09] focused attention. Like, do you ever get

[2:11] so caught up in a good movie that you

[2:13] forget you're watching a movie and enter

[2:14] the imagined world? Yeah. Called

[2:16] believed in imagination. And our brains

[2:19] have the capacity and we understand a

[2:21] good deal now about how it our brains do

[2:23] these things to narrow the focus of

[2:26] attention to dissociate put outside of

[2:28] conscious awareness things that would

[2:30] ordinarily be in consciousness and to

[2:33] have a hyperconnection between the brain

[2:36] and the body to do things to your body

[2:38] and perceive things from your body that

[2:41] ordinarily you wouldn't think you could

[2:42] do. So it's a it's a form of very

[2:46] rapidly

[2:48] both dividing and experiencing things in

[2:52] a way that is unique and novel and can

[2:54] be very helpful to people.

[2:58] you've shared many times and hopefully

[3:00] it's not beating a dead horse, but

[3:03] most people are familiar with hypnosis

[3:07] in the kind of carnival setting, you

[3:09] know, in the stage hypnosis

[3:10] >> and um as you so beautifully said with

[3:13] the many selves and the know thyelves

[3:15] and and helping people um

[3:18] [clears throat]

[3:19] navigate this complex dynamic inner

[3:22] realm um is a completely different thing

[3:24] than what most people are familiar with

[3:25] in the stage. hypnosis. What is the

[3:27] difference?

[3:28] >> Well, you know, stage hypnosis is I

[3:31] don't like it. Um, you know, it's but

[3:33] you know, uh, you know, then there are

[3:36] snake oil salesman for drugs, too. I

[3:38] mean, you can find a bad example of a

[3:40] good thing. Um, and, um,

[3:44] the fact that, you know, the football

[3:46] coach will dance like a ballerina, some

[3:48] football coaches, you know, the the the

[3:51] stage hypnotists don't just do what they

[3:54] do with anybody. They they search the

[3:56] audience for those 5% of people who are

[3:59] extremely hypnotizable. So it it doesn't

[4:02] work with everybody, but what they do is

[4:05] they get people to try out being

[4:07] different to see what it would be like

[4:10] if the football coach pretended he was a

[4:12] ballerina without thinking about what's

[4:14] going to happen in the locker room the

[4:16] next day when when the team says, "Hey

[4:18] coach, you know, you look pretty funny

[4:20] there." Um, and so I don't like it ma to

[4:24] make fun of people, to embarrass them,

[4:26] but I do think there's a point. And the

[4:28] point is that if you focus very

[4:30] intently, um, you can mobilize resources

[4:34] you might not have been able to do

[4:35] otherwise. You can put outside of

[4:38] conscious awareness things that might

[4:39] inhibit you or fear or failure or having

[4:43] tried doing something like skiing or

[4:46] playing tennis or something that you

[4:47] hadn't done before. and allow yourself

[4:50] to see what it would be like if you

[4:52] could engage with it in an intense way.

[4:55] And hypnosis is like that. It's it's

[4:57] it's a state that many people, not

[5:00] everyone, but many people can enter that

[5:02] allows you to connect in interesting and

[5:06] strong ways with your body to put

[5:08] outside of conscious awareness things

[5:10] that might haunt you or trouble you and

[5:12] to try out what it would be like if you

[5:14] were that different person.

[5:18] And you've worked for decades now seeing

[5:22] many instances where in a single session

[5:25] somebody releases an addiction, a

[5:27] personality trait changes. What does

[5:29] that suggest about the ephemeral and

[5:32] malleable nature of our personality and

[5:35] self?

[5:36] >> It it suggests that we are a lot more

[5:38] tangible than we imagine. Um that uh you

[5:42] can really try out being different and

[5:44] see what it feels like. Uh, for example,

[5:47] I um saw a woman who um grew up in a

[5:51] country that was not particularly kind

[5:53] to women. Um, she had suffered as a

[5:56] 12-year-old from having been sexually

[5:59] assaulted by the landlord. The family

[6:01] was afraid to do anything about it. She

[6:04] lived with that. She said, "I, as a girl

[6:06] walking on the streets, people felt they

[6:08] could say anything they wanted to to

[6:09] me." And she got to the to the United

[6:12] States. She had got a job, was

[6:15] functioning pretty well, uh but was

[6:17] chronically depressed and um uh she

[6:21] tried all kinds of medication. She had

[6:22] been in therapy for more than a decade.

[6:25] Um and she just didn't feel right. She

[6:28] didn't feel herself. And she was very

[6:31] hypnotizable. And I I said to her, "I

[6:35] want you to go back and see yourself as

[6:38] that 12-year-old girl just after she had

[6:41] been raped." and she starts to cry. And

[6:44] you know, you may think, "Oh, good,

[6:46] good, duck. You know, you're making her

[6:47] feel more miserable. She's depressed and

[6:49] you're making her feel worse." And I

[6:51] said, "I want you to answer one question

[6:53] for me. Is Is that her fault?" And she

[6:57] said, "No, I'm stroking her hair. I'm

[7:00] stroking her hair." And she cried some

[7:03] more and then she left. And she called

[7:06] me a week later and she said, "My Dr.

[7:09] Spiegel, my psychiatrist wants to know

[7:11] what you did to me because I'm not

[7:13] depressed anymore.

[7:15] And she had lived with this feeling. You

[7:18] know, many people who were assaulted

[7:20] physically or sexually blame themselves

[7:22] for things they didn't control. And

[7:24] especially children who don't understand

[7:26] independent causation. And we would

[7:29] rather feel guilty than helpless. And so

[7:32] if you think I could have done

[7:33] something, it gives you a fantasy that

[7:35] you could have controlled something that

[7:37] you couldn't. Trauma is making a person

[7:38] into an object, a thing, and you lose

[7:41] agency. You lose control over your body.

[7:44] And the best thing to do is to get into

[7:47] a mode where you can see it for what it

[7:49] was. And that's what she did. And she

[7:52] stopped blaming yourself for it. And so

[7:56] with hypnosis can be a powerful way of

[7:59] helping people get a new point of view

[8:02] about an old problem.

[8:05] >> Well said. I think we can all relate to

[8:08] the times throughout our days or weeks

[8:10] or months and we replay past old events

[8:13] or we fantasize about a potential future

[8:16] one. And there's something paradoxical

[8:20] about living in the mind in these two

[8:23] states when we can only be here in this

[8:25] moment. And there's something liberating

[8:27] about that perspective that you gave

[8:28] which I want to see if we can

[8:30] extrapolate and zoom in on um

[8:32] >> to see how it pertains to everybody

[8:36] when a traumatic or a past experience

[8:39] occurs. What is the neurological process

[8:41] of memory reconstruction? Because we

[8:44] have these events and then we think we

[8:46] have an idea of what they actually look

[8:49] like and what actually happened. And I'm

[8:51] just I'm just personally kind of

[8:53] wrestling with this idea of maybe the

[8:56] past the only place the past actually

[8:58] lives is in like the emotional residue

[9:01] in our body associated with that event.

[9:04] And um I'm curious your your thought on

[9:06] that and how memory gets constructed.

[9:08] >> Well,

[9:10] it's an important question and memory is

[9:13] stored particularly recent memories in

[9:15] the hippocample gyrus. It's deep in the

[9:18] brain. It's right near the amydala and

[9:20] other parts of the brains that that

[9:21] manage a effect and more routine kinds

[9:25] of memories like place you know London

[9:27] taxi drivers had larger parietal loes

[9:30] cuz they had to memorize all these

[9:32] strange streets in London. Um but um a

[9:35] lot of memory and particularly memory

[9:37] that involves either negative

[9:40] experiences like being assaulted or

[9:42] positive experiences like being in love.

[9:45] The memories are

[9:47] laid down, stored and retrieved from

[9:49] parts of the brain that are very close

[9:51] to the parts that manage emotion either

[9:55] anger or fear or joy, sadness,

[9:58] happiness. And um so affect colors

[10:02] memory and memory colors affect. If you

[10:05] think about a time when you were

[10:07] humiliated or treated badly or

[10:09] assaulted, you'll tend to feel bad. If

[10:12] you think about a time um where you

[10:14] achieved something or fell in love or

[10:17] did something positive, those memories

[10:19] will be also tagged with an emotion. So

[10:22] they're not just stored and then you

[10:24] paint on the emotion later. They're

[10:26] constructed with an emotional loading

[10:29] and that's an opport it's it can be a

[10:31] problem. It can be an opportunity. It's

[10:33] you know part of what makes life

[10:35] enjoyable but it's part of what can make

[10:37] life terrible too. And hypnosis, because

[10:39] of the narrowness of focus, allows you

[10:42] to focus in on one part of experience to

[10:45] not just remember a thing that happened,

[10:47] but relive it, see what it felt like at

[10:49] the time. So you're not looking back and

[10:52] judging it. You're experience, you're

[10:54] reexperiencing it the way my patient

[10:56] did. And that naturally comes with

[11:01] emotion.

[11:03] Hm.

[11:04] To me, in that instance, it feels like

[11:06] you're going back into this invisible

[11:09] thing called the mind, having this

[11:12] imaginal experience of encountering your

[11:14] younger self and embracing them in a way

[11:16] emotionally that somehow resolves

[11:20] depression in the present moment. It's

[11:24] it's fascinating and it rewrites how we

[11:27] can work with these difficulties in a

[11:30] largely pharmaceutical centric approach

[11:34] for for these mental ailments. So what

[11:37] are your what are your thoughts on I

[11:40] mean obviously you're a big fan of

[11:42] hypnosis. You're you're the guy

[11:44] [laughter]

[11:45] and you've seen how it's really been

[11:47] able to help people for so long.

[11:48] >> Yes. Um, most people haven't been able

[11:51] to experience that. Maybe they haven't

[11:52] just done hypnosis at large. But the

[11:54] fact that you that's possible or

[11:56] potentially on offer depending on

[11:58] someone's hypnotizability and what they

[12:00] have to work with is quite astounding.

[12:03] >> Well, I'm you know, I'm glad to hear you

[12:05] say that hypnosis is the oldest western

[12:07] conception of a psychotherapy. It's the

[12:10] first time a talking interaction between

[12:11] a doctor and a patient was thought to

[12:13] have therapeutic potential. It's more

[12:16] than 200 years old. Um Freud used it and

[12:20] in his early work, his early writings on

[12:22] studies in hysteria, he was hypnotizing

[12:24] patients um to help them recall things

[12:28] in their past that might be related to

[12:30] their current uh problems. That's not a

[12:33] novel idea. Um, Freud gave it up because

[12:37] during one hypnotic session, uh, a young

[12:40] woman threw her arms around his neck and

[12:42] he said, "I was modest enough not to

[12:45] attribute this to my own irresistible

[12:46] personal attractiveness. [laughter]

[12:48] But I discovered the mysterious element

[12:50] beneath hypnosis. It was transference."

[12:52] So people transfer feelings onto the

[12:54] therapist that they had from early

[12:56] experiences in life. And that's why

[12:59] there's a couch in psychoanalysis

[13:00] actually. Um but it was it was powerful.

[13:05] Uh a vianese physician named France

[13:07] Anton Mesmer um uh was using what he

[13:11] then called animal magnetism. He thought

[13:13] that there were magnetic fields in the

[13:15] brain that could be influenced by the

[13:16] therapist and you could change the way

[13:18] the brain function. Uh we actually do

[13:20] that now with transcranial magnetic

[13:22] stimulation which is a very good

[13:24] treatment for depression and obsessive

[13:25] compulsive and traumatic experiences.

[13:28] Um but uh it's also it was at the time

[13:33] uh considered a kind of strange thing to

[13:37] do and was not what the rest of doctors

[13:40] were doing. They were mostly doing

[13:41] bloodletting for one problem after

[13:43] another and um it it uh fell out of

[13:47] favor because he was so successful in

[13:51] competing against French physicians. You

[13:53] know he his office was not drab and

[13:55] grim. It was bright and cheerful and

[13:57] patients would hung around there and

[13:59] talked to one another and uh so he was

[14:01] investigated by a French panel of

[14:03] experts including our own Benjamin

[14:06] Franklin who was having fun in Paris at

[14:08] the time. The great uh brilliant chemist

[14:11] Lavoisier

[14:13] who discovered the principles of oxygen

[14:14] chemistry and invented the gross

[14:17] national product concept before he was

[14:19] beheaded in the French Revolution and uh

[14:23] Dr. Guillot was on the panel, the

[14:25] inventor of the guillotine. You might

[14:27] say he created the mind body problem.

[14:30] And um this group decided that hypnosis

[14:33] was nothing but heated imagination.

[14:36] Now I I've heard of worse definitions. I

[14:39] think that's not bad actually. And in a

[14:41] way, what you do and what you talk about

[14:43] and knowing thyself uh involves heating

[14:46] up your imagination and using it in

[14:47] different ways. So, um, it's been around

[14:50] for a long time, but it suffered one

[14:52] rejection after another, but it won't

[14:53] quite go away because it's just so

[14:56] interesting and so effective and and

[14:59] that's why my colleagues and I built

[15:00] Rey. We thought, you know, hypnosis is

[15:03] is not dangerous. It's helpful. It's

[15:06] interesting. And why not make it

[15:08] available to as many people as possible

[15:10] to use it, learn from it, and benefit

[15:12] from it.

[15:14] So what's happening neurochemically in

[15:17] the induction in the hypnosis state?

[15:19] >> Um there are three things. We've done

[15:21] functional magnetic resonance imaging of

[15:24] high and low hypnotizable people in and

[15:26] out of hypnotic states and we noticed

[15:29] three things going on in the brain. Uh

[15:32] one is a reduction in activity in the

[15:35] dorsal part of the anterior singulate

[15:37] cortex. Now, the singulate cortex is

[15:39] like a sea on its ends, right in the

[15:41] middle of the base of your brain, and

[15:43] it's part of the salience network. It's

[15:46] the part of the brain that fires off

[15:47] when you hear a loud noise or you're

[15:49] scared about something. Um, and uh if

[15:52] you can turn down activity there, it

[15:55] allows you to be less distracted by

[15:57] other considerations by narrowing your

[15:59] focus. You know, it's like getting lost

[16:01] in a good movie. You know, you just

[16:03] don't judge it, you experience it. And

[16:05] if you've turned down the alarm system

[16:07] in the brain, it's easier to do that.

[16:10] The second thing is there's an increase

[16:12] in what we call functional connectivity

[16:15] uh between the left uh uh executive

[16:19] control network, the prefrontal cortex,

[16:21] dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex, um and

[16:24] [clears throat] the insula, which is an

[16:26] island of tissue, insula means island in

[16:28] Latin, in the middle of the frontal

[16:30] cortex that is a mindbody conduit. It's

[16:33] what transmits interception feelings

[16:36] from your body and it's the way the

[16:38] brain controls what's going on in your

[16:40] body. So you increase the ability of

[16:43] your thoughts to influence your body and

[16:45] to be exposed to what's going on in the

[16:47] body when you do it. The third thing

[16:50] that happens is reduced functional

[16:52] connectivity. So a kind of disconnection

[16:55] between the executive control network

[16:58] and the posterior singulate cortex. Now

[17:00] that's an interesting part of the brain.

[17:02] um that's called the part of the default

[17:05] mode network uh where people think about

[17:08] who they are, what they are. It kind of

[17:11] preserves your assumptions and

[17:13] expectations about who you are and what

[17:15] you are. It's the kind of thing that

[17:18] happens. It gets active when you're not

[17:21] doing a task or you're not planning

[17:23] something. You're just sitting around

[17:25] and thinking and you start to wonder who

[17:26] am I? What am I? Would my mother be

[17:28] proud of me now? All kinds of things

[17:30] like that. So it it helps to maintain

[17:33] constancy in your view of yourself and

[17:36] that can be a good thing but I sometimes

[17:39] call it the my fault mode network

[17:41] because it's also a place where if you

[17:43] have irrational beliefs about yourself

[17:46] um or you know feeling unconscious or

[17:49] conscious pressure from other people

[17:50] around you or from your family to do

[17:52] things that you don't want to do. It

[17:54] kind of keeps you on that track and that

[17:57] can interfere with growth and change. uh

[18:00] it can just keep you thinking I should

[18:02] be doing this, I shouldn't be doing

[18:03] that. Um and if you can inhibit

[18:06] activity, disconnect what you're doing

[18:08] from what you think the expectation is

[18:10] you should be doing, that helps you to

[18:13] try out being different. So the what

[18:16] we've seen in the brain is this uh

[18:19] combination of reducing your sort of

[18:21] fears and arousal from other things that

[18:24] you might worry about enhancing your

[18:26] connection with your body and

[18:28] disconnecting from the part of your

[18:31] brain that is telling you who you ought

[18:33] to be and what you ought to be. So you

[18:35] get to try out being different. Hm. Is

[18:38] there anything that we that would be

[18:40] helpful to know about how these memories

[18:42] and these assumptions and a priorize are

[18:44] formed

[18:46] that would reveal like the nature of the

[18:48] structure of them? Well, um, it part of

[18:54] it just the fact that there's a whole

[18:56] circuit in the brain, the the default

[18:58] mode network that kind of guards your

[19:01] assumptions of who you are and what you

[19:03] are provides a kind of self-constancy.

[19:06] And I know many of the people, you know,

[19:08] who have been on your show, Tim Ferrris

[19:11] and Sam and others have have talked

[19:13] about um, you know, the problems with

[19:17] having this sort of illusory self or

[19:19] just being governed by a conception of

[19:22] who you should be and what you should

[19:23] be. On the other hand, we need certain

[19:26] constancy in life and our life

[19:27] experience will shape us in in ways that

[19:30] sometimes are good things, not bad. But

[19:33] what is particularly, I think, exciting

[19:36] about hypnosis is that you can change in

[19:39] a hurry. You can just see what it would

[19:41] be like if you were different. And um

[19:46] make it a a system that you use, but not

[19:49] a system that uses you. That it helps

[19:52] you to to

[19:54] regulate who you want to be, not just

[19:56] who you are. And that's a task that many

[19:59] people who are on a path like yours

[20:01] looking for ways to discover who we

[20:03] might be and not make assumptions that

[20:06] wind up limiting us. Um, and hypnosis is

[20:10] a way to do that intensely and in a

[20:12] hurry. [clears throat]

[20:15] >> It makes me just inquire how

[20:19] how much of our individual personality

[20:22] which we

[20:24] defend and say is ours.

[20:26] >> Mhm. And there [clears throat] is we

[20:28] have this like kind of imperative to

[20:30] protect and defend because it's our

[20:34] identity. Um and in these meditative

[20:37] journeys in these hypnotizable states

[20:40] when there is a transformation of that

[20:42] identity that can occur in a relatively

[20:44] short amount of time. It just to me

[20:45] breeds a lot of

[20:48] insight into the nature of these things

[20:50] in and of themselves. like we don't

[20:51] realize to the degree the perspectives

[20:54] we're looking through because we're just

[20:56] looking through them, you know, and um

[20:59] it just I keep getting this feeling when

[21:01] I when I look at your work and in this

[21:03] conversation that like freedom is on

[21:05] this like it's like on the other side of

[21:07] a coin just like really not that far

[21:08] available to us. Um which is which is a

[21:12] powerful and empowering perspective. Um

[21:15] and my my my friend Peter says uh

[21:17] self-righteousness is a poor man's

[21:19] version of selfworth.

[21:22] >> [laughter]

[21:23] >> That's a good line. I like that. Well,

[21:25] you know, I I call what you do with

[21:27] hypnosis transformation. T R A N C E.

[21:31] >> Because you can change, transform, but

[21:34] you can do it by forming another way of

[21:37] being, a way of thinking about things

[21:39] differently. And hypnosis allows you to

[21:42] do that with intensity and do it in a

[21:44] hurry. Um, and you know, it it's sort of

[21:48] like, you know, when you take a trip and

[21:51] you see a part of the world you've never

[21:53] seen before,

[21:55] it gives you a different perspective on

[21:56] the part of the world you have seen

[21:58] before and you realize that, you know,

[22:00] the people don't have this beautiful

[22:02] view of the Tanga Canyon the way you do.

[22:06] Um, but it puts into perspective the way

[22:09] we live, you know, surrounded by bricks

[22:12] and buildings and things and you start

[22:14] to think, you know, there's another way

[22:15] to live. There's another way to be. And

[22:18] um, I think hypnosis is very helpful

[22:21] because it allows you to get a an

[22:23] intense taste of that and see if you

[22:26] really it would be better for you to be

[22:28] different.

[22:29] >> How do you gauge someone's

[22:30] hypnotizability?

[22:32] So hypnotizability

[22:34] is um it's an it it's a very stable

[22:37] trait. Um it's it's uh most children are

[22:41] hypnotizable. Most children are in

[22:43] transances most of the time. You know,

[22:45] they're out playing and you call them in

[22:46] and they don't hear you. They're doing

[22:48] their thing. And children, you know, all

[22:49] work and play are all the same thing for

[22:51] kids. So they inhabit. They don't just

[22:54] learn and do something because they're

[22:55] supposed to do it. They inhabit it. They

[22:58] they enjoy it. They play with it.

[23:00] They're they're they're interacting with

[23:02] it in that way. And that in a way it's

[23:05] kind of a shame that we make them into

[23:07] little adults because um the kind of

[23:10] life that you live when work and play

[23:13] are all the same thing is pretty nice

[23:15] actually. And so that kind of intensity

[23:18] can be very helpful. By the time you in

[23:22] in adolescence we some of us lose that

[23:24] hypnotizability.

[23:26] Um and uh you know adolescence has been

[23:29] called a time when you favor formal

[23:31] operations when when you don't just um

[23:35] make decisions on the way things appear

[23:37] or you think they might be and you use

[23:40] logic and reason to say is it really

[23:41] possible so you begin to favor logic

[23:43] over experience and by the time you're

[23:46] in your early 20s your hypnotizability

[23:48] is as stable as your IQ. So there have

[23:51] been studies at Stanford 25-y year

[23:53] interval they blindly retested former

[23:56] psych one students who'd had their

[23:57] hypnotizability tested and there was a 7

[24:00] correlation between their

[24:01] hypnotizability at age 20 and at age 50.

[24:06] Um so uh it it's a very stable trait.

[24:10] How do we do it? Um we have a a measure

[24:13] called the hypnotic induction profile.

[24:16] Uh it's uh it's a a brief hypnotic

[24:19] induction in which I have people first

[24:20] of all look up and slowly close their

[24:22] eyes. Take a deep breath, let the breath

[24:25] out, eyes relax, body float, and then I

[24:27] give them an instruction about one of

[24:29] their hands. I say let it float up in

[24:31] the air like a balloon. When I pull it

[24:34] down, it will float right back up to the

[24:36] upright position. You'll find something

[24:38] pleasant amusing about it. Um uh but

[24:41] when I touch your left elbow, your usual

[24:43] sensation and control will return. and

[24:45] we study how they react to that. And for

[24:48] some people very quickly, um, you pull

[24:52] the hand down and they just look at it.

[24:54] There's a great YouTube with my friend

[24:55] Andrew Hubberman doing the test and he's

[24:59] looking at this and he says, "What is my

[25:01] hand doing?" You know, and he had he

[25:04] said it's sort of not like it's not a

[25:05] part of me, you know, and for this

[25:07] brilliant tough guy to be sort of

[25:10] puzzled by the disobedience of his own

[25:12] hand is kind of fun, but it that's that

[25:15] capacity to dissociate. So, you can play

[25:17] with it, you can have fun with it, and

[25:20] then you're given instruction to end it.

[25:22] And most people are surprised that it

[25:24] stops. So we we have a way of scoring

[25:27] this experience from on a 0 to 10 scale

[25:30] and it's a very stable trait and I can

[25:33] do the assessment in five or six minutes

[25:35] and I've done it with every one of the

[25:38] 7,000 people I've used hypnosis with in

[25:40] the course of my career

[25:42] >> and it helps me and and one reason I

[25:45] like the concept is a it helps me to

[25:47] design the best approach to treatment.

[25:52] Uh because for the highs, you just tell

[25:54] them what to do when they do it, you

[25:56] know, and that you'll tell they they

[25:58] they have special problems, you know,

[26:00] it's a wonderful skill that they have,

[26:03] but their problem is that it's so easy

[26:04] for them to see things from another

[26:07] person's point of view that they often

[26:09] lose themselves, you know, and their

[26:11] problem is is is not maintaining that

[26:15] default mode constancy in who they are

[26:18] because the other person said seems very

[26:20] reasonable, you know. Uh, one of my

[26:22] patients said, "I'm a disciple in search

[26:24] of a teacher." You know, I'm always

[26:25] looking for somebody. On the other

[26:27] extreme, the the low hypnotizables,

[26:31] we call them abalonians. They value

[26:32] reason over experience and um they want

[26:36] they want a reason and a rationale and

[26:38] research and everything to accept

[26:40] anything. So, they're they judge things

[26:43] and evaluate things. So with them, my

[26:45] approach is different that I'm

[26:46] explaining why I'm doing what I'm doing

[26:48] and how they might help themselves if

[26:50] they choose to do it. Whereas with the

[26:51] highs, you just say, "Go for it. You

[26:53] know, you could do it." And most of us

[26:55] are in the mid-range where they get into

[26:57] that, but then they step back and they

[26:59] wonder, "Should I do this?" We call them

[27:01] Odesians. That movie Odysius is out now.

[27:03] He was he was tied to the mast of the

[27:05] ship, so he could hear the sirens, but

[27:07] not go to them, you know. And so you you

[27:11] have the experience but then you think

[27:12] it over and see is it the right thing to

[27:14] do. So it helps me structure my approach

[27:19] to people and how I help them. And it is

[27:21] a very stable trait and it's um uh in

[27:26] part people get this uh this uh get this

[27:29] way um through um uh life experience.

[27:34] There are people who are raised with

[27:36] what are called imaginative

[27:37] involvements. So parents who tell read

[27:40] them bedtime stories every night tend to

[27:42] be more hypnotizable. They have positive

[27:44] associations to using their imagination

[27:46] in that way. And uh when my son was a

[27:50] kid once I used to have the kids take an

[27:53] imaginary float down a river as they

[27:54] were going to sleep and they like that.

[27:56] And um I was out in the backyard doing

[27:59] something and my son who was then about

[28:01] seven or eight came out and said uh dad

[28:04] I can't sleep. I need a professional. He

[28:06] said you [laughter] know. So with kids

[28:09] who have those experiences, they tend to

[28:11] be more hypnotizable. However, uh

[28:14] there's another not so pleasant reason

[28:16] and that is uh people who have been

[28:18] physically or sexually abused,

[28:20] mistreated also tend to be very

[28:22] hypnotizable because they would tell me

[28:26] uh when my father and his friends came

[28:28] and assaulted me, I would just go to a

[28:31] men mountain meadow of wild flowers and

[28:34] they do whatever they did to my body and

[28:36] I would just do that. And um

[28:39] [snorts and clears throat] uh so that's

[28:41] a kind of bad way people would get to be

[28:43] more hypnotizable too. And there's a

[28:45] biological part. So dopamine is a major

[28:48] neurotransmitter in the brain. Um and

[28:51] people who have a particular genetic

[28:54] variant of the catalomethyl transferase

[28:56] gene which metabolizes dopamine um are

[29:00] more hypnotizable than those who either

[29:03] metabolize it too quickly or too slowly.

[29:05] So these are people who get about the

[29:07] right level and the levels of a dopamine

[29:10] metabolite homoanelic acid in the

[29:12] cerebral spinal fluid is correlated with

[29:15] hypnotizability. So it's partly

[29:17] neurochemical. It's partly experiential.

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[30:27] show.

[30:30] What does someone's suggestability

[30:33] suggest about them? Like what is

[30:35] somebody who is very hypnotizable?

[30:38] You gave a couple examples there, but

[30:39] what is the quality or correlation if

[30:42] you can pull any uh the quality of their

[30:44] life different from somebody who's very

[30:46] low?

[30:47] >> They tend to be imaginative um creative

[30:50] types,

[30:50] >> cooperative, more creative types. They

[30:52] just they go with whatever takes them,

[30:55] you know, they don't judge it. They have

[30:57] the experience first, they do it and

[30:59] later on they might think about they did

[31:00] it and why they did it. But uh they tend

[31:04] to be sociable. Uh they tend other

[31:07] people tend to like them because they

[31:09] catch on and they don't judge and

[31:10] evaluate people so much as sort of soak

[31:13] up what's going on in the social

[31:15] environment and do it. Um whereas the

[31:19] lowhypnotizables are always judging and

[31:22] evaluating and uh you know I had one it

[31:25] happened I was treating two women at the

[31:27] same time for trickotillan mania you

[31:29] know it's pathological hair pulling and

[31:31] one was a high hypnotizable it turned

[31:35] out and um she was very frustrated she

[31:38] was pulling out her hair and she said

[31:39] you know my hair was so beautiful that

[31:42] the hairdresser in my town would do my

[31:44] hair for free if he could post fig you

[31:46] know pictures of my hair when it was

[31:49] done and and um but she said he was

[31:52] starting to come on to me and I couldn't

[31:55] I was having trouble resisting. So, it's

[31:57] one of these things where she was

[31:58] feeling too drawn even though she knew

[32:00] she didn't want to get involved with

[32:01] this guy. She was also somebody who

[32:04] loved animals and if she'd see an animal

[32:07] hurt by the side of the road, she'd pull

[32:09] the car over and do something to help

[32:10] him. And so I she was very hypnotizable

[32:14] and I got her hypnotized and I said,

[32:16] "Um, so if you saw a wounded animal, you

[32:20] would go over and help him. Would you

[32:21] would you ever just leave it lying there

[32:24] and pull its hair out in in little

[32:26] clumps?" She said, "No, I would never do

[32:27] that." So I said, "Why don't you treat

[32:29] your body the same way you treat a

[32:31] wounded animal? And if you feel a a move

[32:34] to do it, stroke it. Stroke your hair.

[32:37] Don't pull it, you know, if you're

[32:38] interested in it for some reason." and

[32:41] and she

[32:44] and I said one other thing, tell the

[32:45] hairdresser to go to hell. You know,

[32:47] you're not interested and find another

[32:49] hairdresser, you know, which she, you

[32:51] know, when I said it, she said, "Yeah,

[32:53] you know, you're right. I should really

[32:54] do that." But she didn't within herself,

[32:56] she didn't want to hurt his feelings,

[32:57] you know, and so she stopped just like

[33:00] that. Um, I had another patient about

[33:03] the same time who was also pulling out

[33:05] her hair and she said, "I'm getting at

[33:07] my naughty nerves." and she was an

[33:09] accountant and she was, you know, did

[33:11] everything by the books and was very

[33:13] intense. And um she came in a week later

[33:18] and she had plotted out a map of the

[33:21] proportion of pre-treatment hair pulling

[33:23] that she had done since she saw me and

[33:26] the first part it actually went up and

[33:28] then it sort of went down and eventually

[33:30] and I was just telling her isn't it's

[33:31] irrational to do something that

[33:33] deliberately harms your body. Why would

[33:35] you do that? And she stopped but much

[33:38] more gradually and only after arguing

[33:40] with me she wouldn't even let me do the

[33:41] hypnotic induction profile on the first

[33:43] session which I always do because and

[33:45] then when I did it she said well you

[33:47] just invented that to prove to me that

[33:48] there are differences in

[33:49] hypnotizability. She was arguing with me

[33:51] all the time. So same problem ultimately

[33:54] the same result but a very different

[33:56] path to it.

[33:58] >> Could you quickly tell how hypnotizable

[34:00] I am?

[34:02] >> Sure I could. I mean, I could do the

[34:04] test if you want or

[34:06] >> I'm just curious. I'm curious.

[34:08] >> I'd be happy to do it. Now, normally I

[34:10] get close enough to touch. So, if you

[34:13] want, I can do that and we can

[34:15] >> You want me to come closer?

[34:16] >> Uh, yes, that would be good.

[34:20] >> Okay. It's like,

[34:21] >> so,

[34:22] >> okay.

[34:22] >> So, rest, arms on your legs. Good.

[34:25] [snorts] Um,

[34:27] now first look at me and then look up to

[34:29] the top of your head, but keep your head

[34:32] >> the way it is, but look up toward your

[34:34] eyebrows. Oh, good. All the way up. And

[34:36] as you keep looking up, slowly close

[34:38] your eyes. Close.

[34:41] Good. Take a deep breath.

[34:44] Let the breath out slowly through your

[34:46] mouth.

[34:48] Let your eyes relax, but keep them

[34:49] closed and let your body float. Imagine

[34:53] you're floating somewhere

[34:55] safe and comfortable like a bath, a

[34:57] lake, a hot tub, or just floating in

[34:59] space. And while you concentrate

[35:03] on your body floating, I'm going to

[35:04] concentrate on your left hand and arm.

[35:07] In a moment, I'm going to stroke the

[35:09] middle finger of your left hand. When I

[35:11] do, you'll develop a sense of tingling

[35:14] and numbness and lightness, and you'll

[35:16] let it float up. Ready?

[35:21] Good. First, you may notice some

[35:23] restless movement sensations in your

[35:25] fingers, which will spread to your hand

[35:27] and arm. And you may get the sense of a

[35:30] magnetic pull as your elbow bends and

[35:32] your forearm floats into the upright

[35:34] position higher and higher.

[35:40] Good. All the way up.

[35:44] Now, I'm going to position your arm like

[35:46] so and give you this instruction. Your

[35:49] hand will remain light and in this

[35:51] upright position even after I give you

[35:53] the signal for your eyes to open.

[35:56] Later

[35:57] when I pull your hand back down to your

[35:59] leg, it will float right back up to the

[36:02] upright position. You'll find something

[36:04] pleasant and amusing about this

[36:05] sensation.

[36:07] After that, when I touch your left

[36:09] elbow, your usual sensation and control

[36:13] will return. Each time you go into the

[36:15] state of concentration, you'll find it

[36:17] easier and easier to do. And you can use

[36:19] it to help you concentrate on what's

[36:22] important to you. Right now, we'll come

[36:25] out of this state of concentration

[36:26] together by counting backwards from 3 to

[36:29] one. On three, you'll get ready. On two,

[36:31] with your eyelids closed, roll up your

[36:33] eyes. And one, let your eyes open.

[36:34] Ready? 3 2 one.

[36:41] Good. You can let your eyes relax now.

[36:47] And please describe what physical

[36:48] sensations you're aware of now in your

[36:50] left hand and arm.

[36:54] >> Uh sort of lightness.

[36:56] >> Lightness.

[36:57] >> Yeah.

[36:58] >> Is it comfortable?

[36:59] >> Yeah.

[37:00] >> Any tingling sensation? Yeah, it is.

[37:02] >> Uh yeah, a little tingling the hand

[37:06] finger.

[37:07] >> Does your left hand feel as if it's not

[37:09] as much a part of your body as your

[37:10] right hand?

[37:11] >> It does feel. It feels a bit

[37:14] >> disconnected.

[37:14] >> Yeah.

[37:15] >> Um uh raise your right hand.

[37:18] >> Yeah.

[37:18] >> Put your right arm down.

[37:20] >> Are you aware of a relative difference

[37:21] in your sense of control over one hand

[37:23] going up compared to the other?

[37:25] >> Yeah. It feels like my left hand is kind

[37:26] of just doing it by itself.

[37:28] >> So you have more control over the right.

[37:30] >> Yeah.

[37:31] >> Okay. Now, please note this.

[37:46] Definitely feel it wanting to go back

[37:47] up.

[37:48] >> It wants to go back up.

[37:50] >> Does that surprise you?

[37:53] >> It's a bit surprising, [laughter] but I

[37:55] also am being hypnotized.

[37:57] >> Yeah, you are.

[37:59] >> So, it's not out of the question.

[38:01] >> Good. Raise your right hand. Put it

[38:05] down.

[38:06] difference in your sense of control over

[38:09] the right hand.

[38:10] >> And you have more control over which

[38:12] hand.

[38:13] >> All right.

[38:13] >> Or you're right. Okay. Good. And that

[38:16] surprises you a little.

[38:17] >> Mhm.

[38:18] >> All right. Good. Now make a fist with

[38:20] this hand.

[38:21] >> Right fist

[38:22] >> open.

[38:23] >> Mhm.

[38:24] >> Are you aware of a difference in

[38:26] sensation and control now in your

[38:27] left-handed arm compared to a moment

[38:29] before?

[38:30] >> Yeah, it feels more back.

[38:31] >> More back. So the control is equal now

[38:33] in the two hands.

[38:35] Did I do or say anything that would

[38:37] indicate there'd be a change in

[38:38] sensation or control in your left hand

[38:40] and arm?

[38:42] >> I don't think so. Did you do or say

[38:44] anything?

[38:45] >> Did I say anything about your elbow or

[38:47] touching your elbow?

[38:48] >> Um I recalled you saying something

[38:51] earlier in the podcast about the elbow

[38:53] and Yeah.

[38:54] >> Okay. Um did you have a sense of

[38:57] floating lightness or buoyancy in your

[38:58] >> I did. I felt like it wanted to move up

[39:00] and it was just like kind of Yeah. Did

[39:03] you have that sense in any other part of

[39:04] your body? Head, neck, thighs, abdomen,

[39:06] chest, all over, or just your left hand

[39:08] and arm?

[39:08] >> No, just my left hand.

[39:10] >> Hand and arm.

[39:11] >> Okay. Well, you're very hypnotizable.

[39:12] Your score is nine out of 10. [laughter]

[39:15] >> Okay.

[39:15] >> There. And do you kind of lose yourself

[39:18] in things, get so caught up in a good

[39:20] movie, you forget you're watching a

[39:21] movie? And

[39:22] >> yeah, I mean, I definitely can.

[39:25] >> Yeah.

[39:26] >> So, yes, you're extremely hypnotizable.

[39:28] >> Okay, great. I guess.

[39:31] >> Oh, it is. It It's an asset.

[39:33] >> Cool.

[39:34] >> It can It can really help you do unusual

[39:36] things.

[39:38] >> Have you ever been able, for example,

[39:39] when you're hurt to kind of control your

[39:43] perception of pain?

[39:46] >> Um,

[39:47] can I when I'm hurt, can I Yeah, I would

[39:50] say I can control my perception of pain.

[39:52] >> Mhm.

[39:53] >> Yeah. I'm I'm generally a pretty

[39:54] non-reactive person.

[39:56] >> Mhm.

[39:56] >> Yeah.

[39:57] >> And so, how do you how do you become

[39:58] non-reactive? What do you do?

[40:01] >> I I don't know. I guess I just don't

[40:03] react to it. I just kind of like look at

[40:04] it as opposed to identify with it.

[40:07] >> Mhm.

[40:08] >> Yeah.

[40:08] >> That's a great dissociative technique.

[40:10] You know, I see it, I observe it, but

[40:13] might not be me, you know, that and that

[40:16] can be a very powerful thing.

[40:17] >> Mhm. We've done studies with smata

[40:19] sensory revoked responses so EEG over

[40:22] the scalp and we'd had some bright stand

[40:25] for students who were very hypnotizable

[40:27] like you and we would give them a shock

[40:31] to the forearm and um ask them if it

[40:34] hurt and they would say yes and we got a

[40:37] normal semataensory evoked response P100

[40:40] P200 P300 really big um and then in

[40:44] another condition we hypnotized them and

[40:46] said your hands in circulating ice water

[40:47] cool tingling and numb filter the her

[40:49] out of the pain and the amplitude of the

[40:52] evoked response the sensory evoked

[40:54] response was half as big and within a

[40:57] tenth of a second the first wave the P

[40:59] 100 disappeared completely so it wasn't

[41:02] like they felt it and then said oh I

[41:05] wonder what that is you know I don't

[41:06] want to pay attention to it they were

[41:08] literally able to modulate how much

[41:10] their brain reacted to the same stimuli

[41:13] >> and that I suspect is what you're good

[41:15] at too that if you you know that you can

[41:17] modulate your brain's reaction to all

[41:21] kinds of experiences.

[41:22] >> Is there a unhealthy version of that

[41:24] disassociative

[41:26] phenomena?

[41:27] >> Sure. Um,

[41:29] >> cuz like I feel like that disassociation

[41:31] almost is used sometimes to

[41:36] point at when something unpleasant

[41:37] happens, usually earlier in childhood,

[41:39] we kind of leave, you know, we check

[41:41] out.

[41:42] >> That's right.

[41:42] >> Um, I guess are those kind of two sides

[41:44] of the same coin then? Well, it's it's

[41:47] adaptive, but it can be problematic.

[41:49] >> Um, at the time it it's a very useful

[41:52] defense. You know,

[41:54] >> most combat soldiers who get

[41:56] congressional medals can barely remember

[41:57] what they did. You know, that got them

[42:00] the medal. You know, they just I I just

[42:01] did. I had to do it. I don't know what,

[42:03] you know. Um so people and people who

[42:06] are being attacked and particularly

[42:08] children when they're people are very

[42:10] hypnotizable

[42:11] will it's it's you know you basically

[42:14] you're saying to an abuser you got my

[42:16] body but you haven't got me and um they

[42:20] detach themselves from it but the

[42:21] problem is that they then sometimes

[42:23] continue doing that um and you know so

[42:27] dissociative identity disorder these

[42:30] people are very hypnotizable and they

[42:33] will literally shift from one mental

[42:34] state to another. They'll have memory b

[42:37] boundaries between um I had one such

[42:41] patient I worked with for many years who

[42:43] had been physically and sexually abused

[42:45] by her father and his friends and um I

[42:50] one of her identities and I I use

[42:53] hypnosis to help get them into and out

[42:55] of um uh different mental states cuz

[42:59] it's controllable. They think it isn't,

[43:01] but you can teach them how to do it to

[43:02] shift from one to another. And one was

[43:05] talking about a kind of scary suicide

[43:07] plan. And I said, "Well, look, you know,

[43:10] um, I'm going to have to talk to the

[43:11] other parts of you because I don't want

[43:13] this to happen. And if I can't do that,

[43:15] you're going in the hospital." And she

[43:17] said, "You can't tell them." And I said,

[43:19] "Oh, really? Why?" And this is

[43:21] particularly sort of tough, nasty,

[43:22] altered personality. She said, "You

[43:24] can't do that." I said, "Why?" She said

[43:27] doctor patient confidentiality.

[43:30] So [laughter]

[43:31] I was going to, you know, reveal

[43:33] information to another one of her

[43:35] identities. [laughter]

[43:36] And we both kind of laughed. I said, I

[43:38] don't think that's going to work. You

[43:39] know,

[43:39] >> some sort of inception.

[43:41] >> Yeah.

[43:41] >> Meta.

[43:43] >> So, um, yes, it it can be defensive and

[43:47] helpful. Um, [snorts] it can keep you

[43:50] sane at a time when you know events

[43:52] would make you crazy, but um, it also

[43:56] can be a problem and sometimes you can

[43:59] lose control over that ability to detach

[44:01] yourself.

[44:02] >> How long was that that we just did?

[44:04] >> Uh, how long do you think it was?

[44:08] >> Honestly, don't have a big reference.

[44:09] Maybe maybe a couple minutes.

[44:11] >> Yeah, it was probably a little more. It

[44:13] was probably like four or five minutes.

[44:14] >> Okay. Yeah.

[44:15] >> Not much. But you're not the fact that

[44:17] you don't have a reference. You were

[44:19] focusing on other things than than

[44:21] counting time basically.

[44:23] >> Yeah.

[44:23] >> Yeah.

[44:23] >> Which is interesting. So like your your

[44:26] awareness of time and space is is

[44:29] altered.

[44:29] >> Yes.

[44:30] >> Do you do you like kind of comes down?

[44:33] >> Yeah. Because you're not you know I mean

[44:35] when do you really think about time

[44:37] passing? You know you think about when

[44:38] you're bored. You know somebody's giving

[44:40] a dumb lecture. You know you have

[44:42] something to do you don't like doing.

[44:43] So, conversely, when you're really

[44:46] immersed in something, um, time, you

[44:49] don't notice, you're not counting, you

[44:51] know, you don't notice the time going by

[44:53] cuz that takes a different kind of

[44:54] consciousness.

[44:57] >> You had, by the way, a very interesting

[44:59] eye roll. Um, you know, my my late

[45:01] father Herbert Spiegel, who it's sort of

[45:04] a genetic illness in my family, got me

[45:06] into this, um, noticed that people who

[45:09] seem to be more hypnotizable were able

[45:11] to do what you did. That is when you

[45:13] looked up your your your irises just

[45:16] disappeared. You were rolling your eyes

[45:18] all the way up to the top of your head

[45:20] and and they converged a bit. So, and

[45:23] that

[45:23] >> Oh, God. [laughter] Watching this back

[45:25] is going to be strange.

[45:26] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, hypnosis will help

[45:29] you manage it though.

[45:30] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um um and he there is a a

[45:34] correlation between the ability to

[45:36] disconnect lowering the lid from

[45:37] lowering the eye from you know keeping

[45:39] the eye up but lowering the lid and

[45:41] hypnotizability. So people who can do

[45:43] that like you tend to be more

[45:45] hypnotizable and so I was guessing from

[45:47] the very beginning that you would be

[45:49] quite hypnotizable and and you are.

[45:51] >> Okay.

[45:53] >> How can I use that to my advantage?

[45:56] [laughter]

[45:56] >> Sure. Good question. Well, you can use

[45:59] it um to manage stress, for example,

[46:01] because stress is often a kind of

[46:05] unpleasant interaction between

[46:08] what you're mentally thinking and

[46:10] feeling and how your body is feeling.

[46:12] And so, what can happen when you start

[46:14] to get stressed, your body tenses up, it

[46:17] tightens up, your muscles tighten, you

[46:19] may start to sweat, you feel physically

[46:22] uncomfortable, and then you notice that

[46:24] and you think, "Oh, this must be really

[46:26] bad." So you're mentally more stressed

[46:28] and it's like a snowball rolling

[46:30] downhill.

[46:31] >> And so what you can do with hypnosis and

[46:34] what we do with the Revery app, for

[46:35] example, is teach people how to start

[46:38] out from the body up rather than the

[46:40] head down. So if you have a problem

[46:42] confronting you, very often in

[46:46] psychiatry and psychology, we sort of

[46:48] try and help people figure it out first

[46:50] and then you'll feel better. What you

[46:52] can do with hypnosis is say get get a

[46:55] grip on your body's reaction to it and

[46:57] you'll be able to think more clearly

[46:58] about it. So I have people look up,

[47:01] close their eyes, take a deep breath,

[47:02] and imagine that you're floating in a

[47:04] bath, a lake, a hot tub, or floating in

[47:06] space. Get good at getting your body

[47:08] comfortable first. And now that your

[47:11] body is feeling better, and there are

[47:13] other techniques we use like breath

[47:14] work, that slow exhale helps to reduce

[47:16] stress as well. Um, and then picture on

[47:20] an imaginary screen first a pleasant

[47:23] scene somewhere to reinforce your

[47:25] physical comfort. Divide the screen in

[47:27] half in hypnosis. And on one side,

[47:29] picture one thing, one thing, not 12,

[47:32] one, that is causing you stress right

[47:34] now

[47:36] while you keep your body comfortable.

[47:37] And on the other side of the screen,

[47:39] picture one thing you can do about it.

[47:41] might not be the best thing or the only

[47:42] thing but picture that. So you can think

[47:45] more clearly about how to handle stress

[47:48] and you do it by uh getting control over

[47:51] the aspect of the stress that you have

[47:53] the most control over which is your own

[47:54] body. So then you can think more clearly

[47:58] because you're not in this sort of cycle

[48:00] of mental and physical stress. So that's

[48:02] one example of how you could do that.

[48:04] You can just get yourself physically

[48:07] comfortable

[48:08] and deal with it mentally better.

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[49:10] >> [snorts]

[49:10] >> Is it I mean it feels very similar to a

[49:13] form of a guided meditation or um like a

[49:18] yoga nidra. Uh

[49:21] is there any like really key difference

[49:23] there? I guess you're giving really

[49:25] specific suggestions. Yeah, I would say

[49:28] I mean there are reasons why there are

[49:30] you know you know mental control um

[49:34] practices around the world. they're

[49:36] they're different but you know

[49:38] mindfulness from the east hypnosis from

[49:42] the west um but I I say the difference

[49:46] is that the emphasis of many of the

[49:48] meditative practices is on being and the

[49:52] emphasis on hypnosis is on doing.

[49:56] So you don't I mean a a good meditator

[49:58] as I understand it and I know something

[50:00] about it but I'm I'm not an expert in it

[50:02] but um is not supposed to be about

[50:05] dealing with anything. It's in fact it's

[50:07] open presence. You know you do a body

[50:10] scan and then you just try to be open to

[50:12] whatever feelings let them flow through

[50:14] you like a storm passing by. Um but not

[50:17] trying to fix anything and you will

[50:19] discover after a while that things may

[50:20] be different. Hypnosis is much more uh

[50:25] purpose- driven and briefer and that is

[50:27] you go into this state to see if you can

[50:30] make a different you know you can handle

[50:32] stress better you can reduce pain uh you

[50:35] can stop smoking you know we have people

[50:38] um uh imagine think of uh your your what

[50:42] you're doing to your body you know for

[50:45] my body smoking is a poison I need my

[50:47] body to live I owe my body respect and

[50:49] protection and one out four people after

[50:52] one of those sessions stop smoking. So,

[50:55] you know, you don't use meditation to

[50:56] stop smoking. You you use it to to be

[50:59] different and just be open presence. And

[51:01] there's real value in that, too. But it

[51:04] there it's hypnosis can be much faster

[51:07] and more purpose- driven than

[51:09] meditation.

[51:13] >> It feels like you're opening up a window

[51:15] into the subconscious in a sense. Is

[51:18] that would you does that resonate? Yes.

[51:21] Yes, it does. I think that's true. Um,

[51:24] there was a famous uh psychiatrist

[51:26] Milton Ericson who uh lived in the

[51:28] middle part of the last century and was

[51:30] one of the few, you know, responsible

[51:32] physicians doing hypnosis then. And he

[51:35] used to say that the problem is you got

[51:37] to silence the conscious mind and let

[51:39] the unconscious solve the problem for

[51:41] you. Um, and he was more indirect in how

[51:45] he did things. You know, he would have

[51:46] someone who was having family conflicts.

[51:49] He would say, "Betty," his wife, you

[51:51] know, "Bring me that beautiful tie you

[51:53] gave me for Christmas." And he would

[51:55] have the guy concentrate on the weaving

[51:57] of the tie and the combination of colors

[51:59] and all that. And he said at the end

[52:01] that he was reminding this young man of

[52:04] the importance of family ties. Well, you

[52:07] know, okay, I I I tend to be much more

[52:09] direct in using it. Um but it is uh um

[52:15] it is in a way allowing what is called

[52:17] the subconscious or the unconscious to

[52:20] emerge. Um and it's just I you know I

[52:24] think of it more in dissociation

[52:27] rather than the sort of psychonamic you

[52:29] know conscious preconcious unconscious.

[52:32] I think of it more all all of those

[52:33] systems are running all the time in our

[52:35] brains. And I'm just saying yeah you

[52:37] know use the parts that will help you

[52:39] solve the problem. And I think if my

[52:42] unconscious could have solved my

[52:44] problem, I would have done it already.

[52:45] But and it's not just that the conscious

[52:47] mind gets in the way. But it is I think

[52:50] that our preconceptions about ourselves,

[52:52] who we are, what we are, why we are what

[52:54] we are, um [snorts] sometimes our

[52:57] obstacles to getting better. And if you

[52:59] can just see it differently. I had a man

[53:01] for example, a lovely big tall guy um

[53:05] who came initially because he had back

[53:08] trouble and he you know he had a disc

[53:11] disease and to help with the pain. Um

[53:14] but he he talked to me about a Christmas

[53:16] they'd had where his father uh who was

[53:19] an alcoholic would throw things at the

[53:21] fireplace and just make it hell. Um and

[53:26] uh he said uh you know next week I'm

[53:28] going to have to go uh clean up his

[53:30] grave. His father had died and um

[53:34] there's a there's a military cemetery on

[53:36] the way to San Francisco and he would go

[53:38] there and spend hours fixing it up. And

[53:40] I said to him, "What the hell are you

[53:42] doing that for? You don't owe that guy a

[53:44] thing. He made your childhood a misery

[53:47] and he's gone now and you've got better

[53:50] things to do with your time." Now,

[53:51] normally psychiatrists don't talk to

[53:53] patients like that, but but I do. And he

[53:56] called me a couple weeks later and he

[53:58] said, you know, doctor, he was very

[54:00] reluctant at first. He said, I should

[54:01] but I should do this. I'm his son, you

[54:03] know. And he called me up and he said,

[54:06] you know, I looked at a picture of

[54:08] myself and for the first time I liked

[54:10] what I saw

[54:12] because he was just feeling

[54:15] um that there must be something wrong

[54:17] with him if his father would do that to

[54:19] him and his family. not that there was

[54:22] something wrong with his father. Um, and

[54:24] so sometimes you can get people to shift

[54:27] their perspective, draw on information

[54:30] that's there in their memory about what

[54:32] happened, but see it from a different

[54:33] point of view.

[54:39] >> Is this similar neurologically to a type

[54:42] of flow state?

[54:45] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I knew Chick sent me high

[54:47] and we talked about flow and I do think

[54:50] that uh you know he calls it an

[54:53] autotellic experience that it's you

[54:55] would just you're not getting you're not

[54:58] doing it for a purpose. It's just it

[54:59] feels good to do it. You keep doing or

[55:01] experiencing it whatever it is just cuz

[55:03] it feels good. And I do think when

[55:05] people get into flow um they're focusing

[55:09] on the process and the pleasure of the

[55:12] experience itself, not the outcome. And

[55:15] I've used hypnosis a lot with with

[55:17] golfers for example who freeze up and

[55:20] you know get all tense and tight and um

[55:24] uh you know Tiger Woods was trained with

[55:26] hypnosis and every shot he takes he does

[55:29] some a little self-hypnosis exercise

[55:31] first and uh there's a book called Zen

[55:34] and the art of archery in which a a

[55:37] British sociologist observed

[55:40] uh that Zen archers who are very good

[55:43] archers would tell you that the problem

[55:46] with most archers is that they focus on

[55:48] the target, not the bow and arrow.

[55:51] And what he means by that is that if

[55:55] your relationship with the bow and arrow

[55:56] is correct, the arrow will go where you

[55:58] want it to go.

[55:59] >> And you're [clears throat] disconnecting

[56:00] yourself from that. So it's process

[56:02] rather than outcome. And that's so

[56:04] they're helping to get into a kind of a

[56:06] flow state um that um I think is uh is

[56:11] translike in some ways that you're just

[56:14] enjoying the experience. I was called by

[56:15] the uh the head of the Stanford women's

[56:18] swimming team, and we have a really good

[56:20] swimming team, and a lot of them are in

[56:21] the Olympics all the time, but but the

[56:24] coach said, "You know what, the girls

[56:26] are telling me that they're swimming

[56:28] faster in practice than they are in

[56:30] meets." And you think, well, what the

[56:32] hell is that about, you know? And I So,

[56:35] I met with them and they said, "Well,

[56:37] what what's happening is that in a meet

[56:40] I'm focusing on the women swimming on in

[56:43] the lanes next to me." and I get

[56:45] distracted. So, they got disconnected

[56:47] from their bodies. So, I said, "That's

[56:49] your problem. What you're going to do

[56:50] every night is do some self- hypnosis

[56:52] and you're going to do an imaginary race

[56:56] only. You're only going to pay attention

[56:57] to your body and to help with, you know,

[56:59] it's not a contact sport. It doesn't

[57:00] really matter what they do. What matters

[57:02] is what you do." And their their

[57:04] swimming got faster in meats. Um so it's

[57:07] a matter of allowing yourself um to uh

[57:12] uh focus on what matters and to enjoy

[57:15] that experience.

[57:19] Yeah, that that uh certainly tracks in

[57:22] my experience where in particular things

[57:25] that I do, I drop more into flow where

[57:28] wherever there's more unconscious

[57:30] competence, for example, playing piano

[57:31] or something where it's like there's a

[57:33] lack of selfawareness in a sense. Um

[57:38] there's something so pleasurable also

[57:41] about being in that state similar to I

[57:43] think the state of hypnosis where like

[57:46] awareness is still there but there's

[57:48] like a lack of a sense of a doer in it.

[57:50] Um

[57:52] >> yeah or well there's a doer but not a

[57:54] judger you know it's it's kind of more

[57:56] you're just having the experience.

[57:59] >> Well to me it felt like a lack of sense

[58:00] of like a like authorship and doing you

[58:03] know like um

[58:04] >> I see what you mean.

[58:05] >> Yeah.

[58:07] I'm doing it. I'm not sort of aware of

[58:09] planning and evaluating how I do it.

[58:11] >> Right.

[58:12] >> Yeah.

[58:12] >> Yeah. Which is

[58:15] >> which is fascinating. Um why do you say

[58:18] believing is seeing

[58:24] well

[58:26] um you know seeing is believing is a

[58:29] kind of evaluative statement where you

[58:31] say I won't swallow this unless I see

[58:34] it. But if you're doing what we were

[58:37] just talking about, if you're just um

[58:40] believing for example that you can in

[58:43] fact control how your brain processes

[58:45] pain signals, then you will discover

[58:48] that you actually can feel less pain. Um

[58:51] and so it's

[58:54] uh valuing the

[58:57] prim primacy of the experience itself

[59:00] and how you can alter the experience

[59:02] rather than evaluating it uh and then

[59:06] deciding what's really going on.

[59:08] >> You did this with the study with the

[59:10] colors. Is that right? The gray scale.

[59:12] >> That's right. You heard some of our

[59:14] work.

[59:15] >> Yeah. Could you recapitulate that for

[59:16] us?

[59:16] >> Yeah, sure. So I was working with a

[59:18] psychologist who um he was interested. I

[59:22] was we were part of a mindbody network

[59:25] uh um that the MacArthur Foundation had

[59:28] and he he said you know um I you you say

[59:31] that people can change what they're

[59:33] seeing and all that but um I'm wondering

[59:36] if if that's really what's going on or

[59:38] they're just telling you that it seems

[59:40] different if when it doesn't. So um we I

[59:44] said well let's design an experiment

[59:45] that you can run and decide for yourself

[59:48] what happened. So we did pet imaging on

[59:51] people who were um looking at black and

[59:55] white and color grids. So there were

[59:57] grids they were like a mandrean painting

[59:59] with you know squares of different

[1:00:01] shapes and sizes. Some were color, some

[1:00:03] were just black and white. And um we

[1:00:06] would show them the color grids and they

[1:00:09] would get a lot of activity in the

[1:00:11] lingual gyrus and the left side of the

[1:00:13] occipital lobe which does visual

[1:00:15] processing. And if they were it was

[1:00:17] black and white, they had less activity

[1:00:19] in in the same region. So we had a

[1:00:22] baseline of what happens when the

[1:00:24] brain's looking at black and white or

[1:00:25] looking at color. And then we hypnotized

[1:00:28] them and said, "We want you to drain the

[1:00:31] color out of the color grid." And they

[1:00:33] would look at it and they would say,

[1:00:34] "Yeah, it doesn't look so colorful now."

[1:00:37] And then in another condition, we'd had

[1:00:39] them add color to a black and white

[1:00:40] grid. And we found that when they did

[1:00:44] that, they reduced activity in those

[1:00:46] same color processing regions when they

[1:00:48] drained the color. And they were looking

[1:00:49] at the same color grid, but they're

[1:00:51] seeing it as black and white. And when

[1:00:53] they looked at the black and white grid

[1:00:54] and saw it as color, they increased

[1:00:56] activity in the processing region. So

[1:00:58] that's the believing and seeing idea

[1:01:00] that

[1:01:01] >> you believe that's what you're seeing

[1:01:02] and that's what you see.

[1:01:06] >> It makes me think a bit of Andy Clark's

[1:01:08] work some others as well as like perman

[1:01:11] exploring perception as like a

[1:01:13] generative phenomena, not as a simply

[1:01:16] uh receptive one. Like we think we're

[1:01:18] just taking in the world as it is as

[1:01:20] opposed to constructing it. Right.

[1:01:22] Right. You know, I mean, think about it,

[1:01:24] you know, and it's with pain too. The

[1:01:27] brain is this three lb organ encased in

[1:01:30] a bony box, right? And it's getting all

[1:01:32] this information from, you know, neurons

[1:01:35] that, you know, sensors that provide

[1:01:38] information to it. But the brain isn't

[1:01:39] touching anything, you know, and it

[1:01:41] isn't seeing anything. It's receiving

[1:01:44] electrical signals that get transmitted

[1:01:47] to the brain and the brain has to decide

[1:01:49] what to make of it. And so it has a good

[1:01:53] deal of control over what you know what

[1:01:57] it does with the information it gets.

[1:01:59] And and so it makes sense actually that

[1:02:02] believing is seeing that that the brain

[1:02:05] has to and and sensing is you know uh

[1:02:09] the sensory experiences also are things

[1:02:11] that um the brain interprets

[1:02:15] and generally it interprets in ways that

[1:02:16] keep us alive and if you know we see a

[1:02:19] saber-tooth tiger over there we know

[1:02:20] what to do. I mean it's not random but

[1:02:23] at the same time it's an interpretive

[1:02:26] kind of processing that's going on and

[1:02:28] there's no reason you know we frankly we

[1:02:31] don't know I'm sitting here looking at

[1:02:32] you you're looking at me I know what you

[1:02:35] look like and you know what I look like

[1:02:37] but do you know whether what you look

[1:02:39] like if you were me is actually anything

[1:02:42] like what you think you look like you

[1:02:44] know

[1:02:46] >> no because also the way that mirrors

[1:02:49] work and and the way that We like flip

[1:02:52] images and anybody who's [laughter]

[1:02:55] taken their phone where they like put it

[1:02:56] in selfie mode and you can like flip the

[1:02:58] image,

[1:02:59] >> you know, and you see the asymmetry of

[1:03:00] your face and one side, you know, it's

[1:03:02] like we it's interesting to see to think

[1:03:05] about what other people see us as as

[1:03:06] opposed to what we see in the mirror and

[1:03:08] think we look like.

[1:03:09] >> That's exactly right.

[1:03:10] >> And uh and Neil Sat who we just had on

[1:03:12] the podcast, he kind of explains this

[1:03:14] phenomena as a controlled hallucination,

[1:03:18] >> you know, that's happening in

[1:03:19] >> That's not bad. That's not a bad

[1:03:20] description. That's right. I I think

[1:03:23] that's really true. There's so much

[1:03:25] interpretation, you know, and and

[1:03:27] manipulation that goes on to process

[1:03:30] things. That's right.

[1:03:33] In this process, as you've worked with a

[1:03:35] wide spectrum of patients and emotions

[1:03:38] within those patients, what have you

[1:03:40] learned about what emotions are signals

[1:03:43] for and what they're trying to tell us?

[1:03:48] >> And and and what what it takes to

[1:03:50] integrate and heal them.

[1:03:52] >> Um well, you know, emotions are I mean,

[1:03:56] there's a wide variety of things. They

[1:03:57] they clearly drive our behavior. you

[1:03:59] know, they get us to do certain things

[1:04:01] and avoid other things. They remind us

[1:04:04] of unpleasant consequences of doing bad

[1:04:06] things and pleasant consequences of

[1:04:08] doing others. Uh, and that's also

[1:04:12] something where techniques like hypn you

[1:04:14] can change people's moods. You know, you

[1:04:15] can help them either feel really good if

[1:04:18] they think about something pleasant or

[1:04:20] really bad if they think about something

[1:04:22] unpleasant. And to the extent that you

[1:04:25] focus, you know, the light of your

[1:04:27] attention on something that is either

[1:04:30] positive or negative, you know, you will

[1:04:33] feel differently. And I think because

[1:04:35] hypnosis, you know, with hypnosis, it's

[1:04:38] like a flashlight in a cave. You know,

[1:04:40] you you see certain things and they'll

[1:04:44] make you feel comfortable or

[1:04:45] uncomfortable or happy or sad. And

[1:04:47] what's different is that now, you know,

[1:04:50] we're doing sort of back and forth

[1:04:51] processing where we're looking at one

[1:04:53] another, but there's an environment

[1:04:54] we're in. It's a nice environment. You

[1:04:56] can look around the room and you're

[1:04:58] selecting what to attend to. And um if

[1:05:02] you're interested in what I'm saying,

[1:05:03] you're not falling asleep. You're, you

[1:05:05] know, paying attention, thinking of the

[1:05:06] next question. If you're not, you know,

[1:05:09] you might. Um, so I think where hypnosis

[1:05:12] comes in is that it helps you to sort of

[1:05:15] parcelate your perception to decide what

[1:05:18] you're going to attend to and what

[1:05:19] you're what you're going to ignore. An

[1:05:22] example, Rory Mroy, you know, was, you

[1:05:26] know, on the verge of winning the

[1:05:27] Masters like seven times, but he had had

[1:05:30] one famous screw up where um on the 11th

[1:05:35] hole or something, he he hit the ball,

[1:05:37] wound up in a tree. I mean, it was

[1:05:38] embarrassing, you know, and for 7 years

[1:05:42] after that, every time he got to that

[1:05:44] hole, he'd screw it up again, you know.

[1:05:46] And so, he started, he actually started

[1:05:48] with our app, the Revery app, and and

[1:05:50] then he uh got a a personal psychologist

[1:05:53] to work with him. And when he got to the

[1:05:56] seventh hole the next year for the 11th

[1:05:58] hole, whatever it was, um he learned to

[1:06:01] focus on other things, on his

[1:06:03] relationship with the club and the

[1:06:04] swing. And this was just another hole.

[1:06:06] thought what mattered was the way he

[1:06:08] connected with the ball and he he went

[1:06:11] right he blew right through it and he

[1:06:13] won the Masters and he's won it now two

[1:06:15] years in a row. And so he changed, you

[1:06:18] know, it's changing the emotion, you

[1:06:19] know, from um oh god, here's another

[1:06:23] time for me to screw up my entire career

[1:06:25] and make a fool of myself to I can go

[1:06:28] through this. I can experience it

[1:06:30] differently. And so what hypnosis helped

[1:06:31] him to do is pay attention to what he

[1:06:35] needed to and wanted to rather than just

[1:06:38] running that old tape of what a fool

[1:06:39] he'd made of himself and it worked.

[1:06:42] >> Yeah. It makes me think what our version

[1:06:44] of that hole is, you know, in our own

[1:06:46] life. What uh

[1:06:47] >> Yes.

[1:06:48] >> What are we placing emotional

[1:06:50] significance around that for another

[1:06:52] person would just be another day in the

[1:06:54] park, you know, another day on the

[1:06:55] course,

[1:06:56] >> right?

[1:06:58] >> Exactly. And and so much of your work is

[1:07:00] helping reconstruct these past traumatic

[1:07:02] memories and experiences and reframing

[1:07:04] them in a powerful way.

[1:07:05] >> Yes. Yes. That's right. Well, I had a a

[1:07:09] woman who could join an experiment of

[1:07:10] ours. We were studying whether hypnosis

[1:07:12] could help people stop smoking. And you

[1:07:14] know, most people have a lot of trouble

[1:07:16] doing that, but you know, they tell

[1:07:18] themselves don't smoke or they see

[1:07:20] pictures of damaged lungs or something

[1:07:22] and uh it's so unpleasant that they

[1:07:25] don't want to pay much attention to it,

[1:07:26] you know, so they smoke. So we say for

[1:07:30] my body, smoking is a poison. I need my

[1:07:32] body to live. I owe my body respect and

[1:07:34] protection. And one subject in the study

[1:07:37] um was a mental health professional,

[1:07:40] intelligent woman, um she the first time

[1:07:44] she heard that she didn't like it, but

[1:07:45] she went home and she said, "You know, I

[1:07:48] looked at a cigarette in my hand. I lit

[1:07:50] looked at it. I said, "F who needs

[1:07:52] this?" And she put it, she said, "I put

[1:07:54] it out. I haven't smoked a cigarette

[1:07:56] since." I didn't want to stop. I smoked

[1:07:59] 25 years. and she said, "This is some

[1:08:02] kind of crazy ass voodoo shit." And I

[1:08:05] mean that in a good way. She said she's

[1:08:07] helping her friend stop smoking now. So,

[1:08:10] you know, the ability to narrow your

[1:08:13] focus into a different perspective and

[1:08:16] gives you more control over your

[1:08:18] emotion, over your experience because

[1:08:20] you're choosing which part of the vast

[1:08:22] array of choices you're going to attend

[1:08:24] to.

[1:08:26] >> Yeah. Interesting enough, my my pops

[1:08:28] when I was younger had a health clinic

[1:08:30] and he'd help people quit addiction and

[1:08:32] he'd use hypnosis for as a tool.

[1:08:34] >> Oh, cool.

[1:08:35] >> Um, so it's it's it's funny enough, you

[1:08:38] know, I have very light exposure to it.

[1:08:41] Um, but have seen the efficacy of it um,

[1:08:46] loosely over time.

[1:08:47] >> How did what did how what was his work?

[1:08:50] What was his profession? I mean,

[1:08:51] >> yeah. Yeah. you have a health clinic

[1:08:53] mainly helping people lose weight or

[1:08:55] quit smoking like is a couple main

[1:08:57] things

[1:08:58] >> and um

[1:09:00] >> well we have that in common that is sort

[1:09:01] of a genetic illness in both of our

[1:09:04] [laughter]

[1:09:05] I mean my father was you know he went he

[1:09:08] went went fought in North Africa in

[1:09:10] World War II and he was being analyzed

[1:09:13] um and the analyst finally said

[1:09:15] something at the end of the session he

[1:09:17] said do you want to learn something

[1:09:18] about hypnosis and my father thought the

[1:09:21] analyst actually said something, you

[1:09:22] know, what did I say wrong or something?

[1:09:25] And he said there was a guy named Gustaf

[1:09:27] Schauffenberg

[1:09:29] um who um was a vianese physician, a Jew

[1:09:33] who had been barely escaped uh from the

[1:09:37] Nazis. And he was a forensic

[1:09:40] psychiatrist and he had a smallox scar

[1:09:43] in the middle of his forehead. And he

[1:09:45] noticed that some of these prisoners he

[1:09:46] was interviewing would start staring at

[1:09:49] that scar and do what you did. you know,

[1:09:51] they just sort of nod off and go into a

[1:09:53] hypnotic state. And so he started using

[1:09:55] hypnosis. And he wasn't allowed to serve

[1:09:57] in the military here, but he said, I'm

[1:09:59] going to train army doctors to use it.

[1:10:00] So he trained my father to do it, and he

[1:10:03] used it for pain control and

[1:10:05] post-traumatic stress symptoms. He came

[1:10:08] back and went back to being an analyst.

[1:10:10] Um but uh he had a wonderful supervisor

[1:10:14] Freda from Reichman um who said he he

[1:10:18] was going to stop doing it because

[1:10:19] another analyst said Freud stopped using

[1:10:21] hypnosis. Why should you do it? You can

[1:10:23] you know and she said what are you so

[1:10:26] precious about your reputation for?

[1:10:28] You're going to teach a course in our

[1:10:30] institute and I know you're going to do

[1:10:31] it because I'm going to take it. And so

[1:10:34] he continued doing hypnosis and

[1:10:36] increasingly he would get in touch with

[1:10:38] patients and ask how they were doing and

[1:10:40] most of his analytic patients would say,

[1:10:42] "Well, you know, are you having trouble

[1:10:44] finding patients? I'll talk to a few of

[1:10:45] my friends kind of thing. But with

[1:10:47] hypnosis, they'd stop smoking. You know,

[1:10:50] their anxiety disorder symptoms got

[1:10:53] better and stuff." So he shifted more

[1:10:55] and more. So the dinner table

[1:10:57] conversations were interesting and I got

[1:10:59] to watch him film film him treating

[1:11:02] people who had uh hysterical pseudo

[1:11:05] seizures and you know they'd bring on

[1:11:07] the seizure and gradually diminish it

[1:11:09] and do better. And so when I got to

[1:11:12] medical school, I took a hypnosis

[1:11:14] course. And my first patient ever um

[1:11:19] that for whom I used hypnosis was a

[1:11:21] 16-year-old girl uh who had status as

[1:11:25] was in status asthmaticus. She's chronic

[1:11:27] asthma attacks and they were thinking of

[1:11:30] they couldn't stop it. They given her

[1:11:33] steroids. It wasn't working. They were

[1:11:34] going to put her on more steroids. Um

[1:11:36] and um uh they were going to give her

[1:11:39] general anesthesia to stop it. And uh it

[1:11:42] was the third time in 3 months she had

[1:11:44] been hospitalized. It was bad situation.

[1:11:46] I hear the sound of the wheezing down

[1:11:47] the hall. The nurse says, "Your patient

[1:11:49] is in there." And I didn't know what the

[1:11:51] hell else to do. She's standing there.

[1:11:52] Her mother's standing there crying.

[1:11:54] She's in bed bolt upright, knuckles

[1:11:56] white. And I just uh had taken this

[1:11:59] course. So I said, "You want to try a

[1:12:00] breathing exercise?" She nods. So I get

[1:12:03] her hypnotized. And then I realized we

[1:12:06] hadn't studied asthma in the course. I

[1:12:07] didn't know what to say. So I said,

[1:12:09] "Each breath you take will be a little

[1:12:11] deeper and a little easier." And within

[1:12:14] 5 minutes, she's lying back in bed and

[1:12:15] she isn't wheezing anymore. And the

[1:12:18] mother stopped crying. Nurse ran out of

[1:12:20] the room. My intern came looking for me.

[1:12:23] And I thought he was going to say, "Wow,

[1:12:25] good for you, Spiegel." He said, "Um,

[1:12:27] you need to understand that the nurse

[1:12:29] has filed a complaint with the nursing

[1:12:31] supervisor that you violated

[1:12:32] Massachusetts law by hypnotizing a minor

[1:12:35] without parental consent." Now,

[1:12:37] Massachusetts has a lot of weird laws,

[1:12:39] but that's not one of them. And I her

[1:12:42] mother was standing next to me when I

[1:12:43] did it. So, he said, "You're going to

[1:12:45] have to stop." And I said, "Well, take

[1:12:46] me off the case if you want, but as long

[1:12:49] as she's my patient, I'm not going to

[1:12:51] tell her something I know isn't true."

[1:12:53] So he stomped off and but you know it's

[1:12:56] interesting with all the damage that we

[1:12:58] do to patients with all the drugs and

[1:13:00] all kinds of other things you know just

[1:13:02] the idea that my talking to her that way

[1:13:04] and she immediately responds is going to

[1:13:07] harm her was just ridiculous. So he came

[1:13:09] back on Monday after a council with the

[1:13:12] chief resident and the attending and uh

[1:13:16] they came up with a radical idea. They

[1:13:17] said let's ask the patient and I you

[1:13:20] know I thought that was a great idea.

[1:13:21] you know, I don't think they'd ever done

[1:13:22] that before at Children's Hospital, but

[1:13:24] they didn't. She said, "Oh, I like this.

[1:13:25] I want to keep doing it." And she had

[1:13:28] one subsequent hospitalization, but went

[1:13:29] on to study to be a respiratory

[1:13:31] therapist. And this is one of those

[1:13:33] situations where that changed me because

[1:13:36] right in front of my eyes, you know, in

[1:13:38] a couple of minutes, I could see her

[1:13:40] getting better. And I just thought, you

[1:13:42] know, I got to I got to do more of this

[1:13:44] because it's helping people to help

[1:13:46] themselves.

[1:13:48] Do you feel like this path chose you in

[1:13:50] a way? Sounds like your mom was also a

[1:13:53] psychiatrist, right?

[1:13:55] >> Your dad was into this work and

[1:13:57] >> Yeah.

[1:13:58] >> Yeah. I was My parents told me I was

[1:14:00] free to be any kind of psychiatrist I

[1:14:02] wanted. [laughter]

[1:14:04] And I I'll I used to tell that story

[1:14:08] around the family and my son two we have

[1:14:10] two wonderful children. My son's an

[1:14:12] architect who would love your house. And

[1:14:14] he's built us a house that is similar to

[1:14:17] this in these huge windows where he

[1:14:19] brings the outside in, you know, and so

[1:14:20] you feel outdoors even though you're

[1:14:22] you're indoors. And he said, "Well, you

[1:14:25] know, my mother's a cell biologist, so I

[1:14:28] had a little more leeway than my father

[1:14:30] did, you know." So he said, "Um, you

[1:14:33] know, spaces give you feelings just like

[1:14:35] this room gives you feelings." He said,

[1:14:37] "Uh, I want to be a doctor of spaces."

[1:14:40] and he's a wonderful architect now and

[1:14:43] and you know so he he absorbed it in a

[1:14:46] good way and uh so um and our daughter

[1:14:50] is an attorney who's helping make the

[1:14:52] world better and safer. She's uh started

[1:14:55] a group called Gov Act uh which is

[1:14:58] governors getting together to help with

[1:15:01] reproductive rights and protect our

[1:15:04] rights. So, um, you know, I I like to

[1:15:07] think that although neither of them

[1:15:09] wanted to be a doctor, they they got the

[1:15:12] sort of helping bug and that's what

[1:15:14] they're doing in their way. But I I you

[1:15:17] know, I have a neurosych a

[1:15:19] neurossychiatrist now who works in my

[1:15:20] lab and he said, you know, when I use

[1:15:23] hypnosis, I know what surgeons feel

[1:15:26] like. you know, you feel like you just

[1:15:27] go in and you fix something, you know,

[1:15:29] and in psychiatry and psychology, we

[1:15:32] tend to, you know, it's more gradual and

[1:15:34] subtle. But with hypnosis, sometimes you

[1:15:38] feel a bit like a surgeon. I went in and

[1:15:40] fixed that, you know, helped them be

[1:15:42] different and [snorts and clears throat]

[1:15:43] and that's a wonderful feeling.

[1:15:49] >> You you mentioned multiple personality

[1:15:51] or disassociative identity disorder

[1:15:53] earlier,

[1:15:54] >> right?

[1:15:56] I've always found it very [snorts]

[1:15:58] fascinating how one human being can have

[1:16:01] these various

[1:16:03] up to over 10 20 personalities. One's

[1:16:07] allergic to peanuts, the other one is

[1:16:09] left-handed, you know, and it's like

[1:16:12] when they're inhabiting these

[1:16:13] perspectives and personalities, they

[1:16:15] have these allergies and these very real

[1:16:18] chemical reactions to things. Mh.

[1:16:22] >> And um

[1:16:24] >> yeah, for some for some reason we lose

[1:16:26] that analogy when it's just one

[1:16:27] personality that we say we have.

[1:16:30] >> And u but of course we have our own

[1:16:32] stuff. My sister, [snorts] she's

[1:16:33] allergic to nuts, you know.

[1:16:35] >> Um we all have our own like things. Mhm.

[1:16:39] >> And when you look at disassociative

[1:16:42] identity and multiple personality and

[1:16:45] you bring that analogy back and you that

[1:16:47] understanding back to one personality,

[1:16:51] it uh it makes me question how

[1:16:54] personality is in it in in in of itself

[1:16:56] a sort of hypnotic rhythm. Um I'm

[1:16:59] curious your thoughts there.

[1:17:01] >> Well, I think it is in the sense that um

[1:17:06] personality is an identity. You know, we

[1:17:08] talked about the uh default mode network

[1:17:11] and how it's one way we think about

[1:17:14] ourselves and you've had people here who

[1:17:17] talk about the the problem of, you know,

[1:17:19] getting lost in a self and and um that

[1:17:23] you need to kind of shed some of that

[1:17:25] sense of that is really who you are

[1:17:26] because it isn't. It's just a convenient

[1:17:29] assumption. I think what hypnosis allows

[1:17:32] you to do is on the one hand create but

[1:17:35] on the other hand manage dissociation so

[1:17:39] you can see how you can be a different

[1:17:40] person and you know we all are you know

[1:17:43] we're different on a vacation than we

[1:17:45] are when we're at work and that's one

[1:17:46] reason we go on vacations to try out

[1:17:48] being different but you don't have to go

[1:17:50] on a vacation to do that. Hypnosis helps

[1:17:53] people

[1:17:55] better understand and control these

[1:17:57] different roles that we play and try out

[1:18:00] being different. See if you know you can

[1:18:02] really be different. Now in dissociative

[1:18:05] identity disorder people you know have

[1:18:07] been kind of driven into it by sexual

[1:18:10] and physical abuse usually not always

[1:18:12] but usually. Um and what you try to do I

[1:18:16] use hypnosis to teach them how to

[1:18:18] control that. um and uh to not

[1:18:23] necessarily assume that this the switch

[1:18:25] is just going to happen. And there tend

[1:18:28] to be like a hierarchy of identities

[1:18:30] where some are more angry and

[1:18:31] controlling and others are more passive

[1:18:33] and pathetic kind of thing. And but you

[1:18:35] you teach them gradually that they can

[1:18:37] learn how to control uh these different

[1:18:40] uh identities. I I had uh one patient

[1:18:44] who a teenage boy who um suddenly would

[1:18:48] act say he was a werewolf. He'd sit down

[1:18:50] at dinner and start eating food from a

[1:18:53] plate just, you know, and the family was

[1:18:55] kind of freaked out by this and didn't

[1:18:57] know what to do. And um I found out that

[1:19:01] what was happening was he was like 14 or

[1:19:04] 15 at the time. And his older sister was

[1:19:07] sneaking, they shared a bedroom and she

[1:19:09] was sneaking her boyfriend into the

[1:19:10] bedroom and playing around with the

[1:19:12] boyfriend. And so this kid didn't know

[1:19:14] what to do with that and got

[1:19:16] symptomatic. So I could show that he

[1:19:19] could shift with hypnosis from one of

[1:19:21] these states to the other and teach him

[1:19:23] how to control it. And I said to the

[1:19:26] family, you know, don't freak out and

[1:19:28] don't buy it that he's really a werewolf

[1:19:30] cuz he isn't. He's just So the next time

[1:19:32] he did that at dinner and his his mother

[1:19:36] said to him, I don't care who you are.

[1:19:39] Sit down and eat your dinner like anyone

[1:19:41] else, you know, and she just not playing

[1:19:43] into it. and it was a way of teaching

[1:19:45] him how to how to control it. So

[1:19:48] hypnosis can be very helpful in being

[1:19:51] part of what is a control mechanism but

[1:19:54] one that you can learn to control

[1:19:55] basically.

[1:19:59] >> If if there's not and and share your

[1:20:03] thoughts if if you don't think so but if

[1:20:05] there's not a single solid enduring self

[1:20:08] then who are we?

[1:20:12] Well,

[1:20:13] I think [snorts] selfhood is a kind of a

[1:20:16] construct.

[1:20:18] Um,

[1:20:20] some of what we take for granted as, you

[1:20:23] know, objective reality, you know,

[1:20:25] probably isn't. It's an assumption that

[1:20:27] we assemble from our brains in this box

[1:20:30] trying to make sense of the world. Um,

[1:20:34] but I think

[1:20:37] the notion of itself is at the least a

[1:20:40] way that we make sense of what we do and

[1:20:42] who we are. And it's never perfect and

[1:20:44] it should change and we shouldn't get

[1:20:46] too stuck in it. And I think that's

[1:20:48] where hypnosis can help actually because

[1:20:50] you can really see what it would be like

[1:20:52] to be different if I weren't so scared

[1:20:54] every time I ran into something that

[1:20:56] reminds me of what happened 12 years ago

[1:20:59] or something like that. if uh I let go

[1:21:02] of the assumption that people like me

[1:21:05] can't do certain things that other

[1:21:07] people seem to be able to do or that I

[1:21:09] came from the wrong side of the tracks

[1:21:11] and and that will limit me forever kind

[1:21:14] of thing that you can see what it would

[1:21:17] feel like if that wasn't your working

[1:21:20] assumption. So I think you know is the

[1:21:24] self a kind of a construct? Sure it is.

[1:21:28] But I it's a malleable construct and

[1:21:30] it's one that I think we have more

[1:21:32] control over than we give ourselves

[1:21:34] credit for. And hypnosis can just be a

[1:21:38] visible case example. You know, you

[1:21:40] wouldn't have thought that your left arm

[1:21:42] could really want to go up regardless of

[1:21:44] what you thought it ought to be doing.

[1:21:46] And so you were seeing that you have

[1:21:48] control systems between your brain and

[1:21:50] your body that maybe you hadn't

[1:21:52] consciously used before. And so it

[1:21:54] allows you to kind of on the one hand it

[1:21:57] kind of diminishes the notion of the

[1:22:00] self, but on the other hand it allows

[1:22:03] you to expand the idea of how it's a

[1:22:06] it's a work in process always. And and

[1:22:09] we make assumptions to sort of simplify

[1:22:11] things for ourselves. But you know the

[1:22:14] self is a very complex ongoing process.

[1:22:18] >> Mhm. [clears throat]

[1:22:20] How much time have you thought about how

[1:22:22] of course we have our own individual

[1:22:24] transes that we're in through our

[1:22:26] personality

[1:22:27] >> a useful assumption I think you used the

[1:22:29] verbiage of you know convenient one

[1:22:32] >> um

[1:22:34] >> when you extrapolate that to a societal

[1:22:38] level and you see the transes that we

[1:22:41] are in collectively [clears throat]

[1:22:44] >> um do you not feel that there are many

[1:22:46] things we are in a sort of group

[1:22:48] hypnosis of Yeah, I think so. I think

[1:22:55] you know what what's going on right now

[1:22:56] in our country is is heartbreaking and

[1:23:00] people are falling for things that that

[1:23:03] they shouldn't. Um, and you know,

[1:23:05] there's the sort of Jim Jones

[1:23:08] phenomenon of people in in cults. There

[1:23:10] there's a uh Leon Fessinger was a

[1:23:13] brilliant Stanford psychologist who

[1:23:14] wrote a book called the theory of

[1:23:16] cognitive dissonance and it was uh a um

[1:23:21] a book about a study that his lab

[1:23:24] conducted in which one of the grad

[1:23:26] students infiltrated an end of the world

[1:23:28] cult. And these people believe that on a

[1:23:31] certain day God was going to destroy the

[1:23:34] earth but send down a spaceship and take

[1:23:36] them away and rescue them. And a bunch

[1:23:38] of them believed it and they sold their

[1:23:40] farms and everything and showed up that

[1:23:42] night and fortunately the the world

[1:23:44] didn't end. And so in the middle of the

[1:23:47] night and this grad student is recording

[1:23:48] all this, you know, watch what happened.

[1:23:50] He does automatic writing and he gets a

[1:23:53] message from God that God is so pleased

[1:23:55] with what he's done that he's decided

[1:23:57] not to destroy the earth after all. So

[1:24:01] the change in behavior was very

[1:24:02] interesting. And these are people who

[1:24:04] had lost a lot. I mean, they'd sort of

[1:24:05] given up everything to come do this.

[1:24:08] They went from being a sort of secretive

[1:24:10] we we know what's going on and you don't

[1:24:12] to going around convincing other people

[1:24:14] that they were right. And he called that

[1:24:17] cognitive dissonance. That, you know,

[1:24:19] when reality when the facts conflict

[1:24:21] with your beliefs, you can do one of two

[1:24:23] things. You can change your beliefs.

[1:24:24] That's what we call the scientific

[1:24:26] method. Um or you can go around

[1:24:28] convincing other people that your

[1:24:30] beliefs are correct when they're

[1:24:31] obviously wrong. Now, you know, these

[1:24:34] days that's not an uncommon experience

[1:24:36] and a lot of true scientific beliefs are

[1:24:38] being dissed and you know, people are

[1:24:40] not getting vaccinated. All kinds of

[1:24:42] terrible things are happening. People

[1:24:43] are dying because of this. But one way

[1:24:47] that we shape ourselves is to gather a

[1:24:51] crowd with us who have the same beliefs

[1:24:53] whether it happens to be correct or not.

[1:24:56] And and um so I think hypnosis is sort

[1:25:00] of an object lesson that you can change

[1:25:03] what seems real and true for a while,

[1:25:05] but you can control it and you can use

[1:25:07] it in sensible, productive,

[1:25:09] you know, proactive, healthy ways, or

[1:25:13] you can come to believe things that

[1:25:15] aren't true. You know, I mean, I was

[1:25:17] doing that in that vision experiment.

[1:25:19] you know, I was getting people to report

[1:25:22] that a grid that was black and white

[1:25:24] actually was colorful and conversely.

[1:25:27] So, we were demonstrating that people

[1:25:30] can use their capacity to manage their

[1:25:32] perception and experience in a way that

[1:25:36] can either be constructive and help them

[1:25:38] live better and get a different

[1:25:40] perspective on who they are and what

[1:25:42] they are, or it it could be damaging.

[1:25:45] they they can see and do things that

[1:25:47] don't make any sense, but if they get

[1:25:49] enough people who agree with them,

[1:25:51] doesn't bother them. So, you know, one

[1:25:54] of the reasons that we built Rey um is

[1:25:59] to help share that knowledge of how to

[1:26:02] do this and to help people on the one

[1:26:04] hand see that they can change their

[1:26:06] personal reality. they can stop smoking

[1:26:09] or you know uh um you know control their

[1:26:13] chronic pain and get off of opioids. Um

[1:26:16] they can eat better and lose weight.

[1:26:18] They can stop smoking. They can do a lot

[1:26:20] of things that you can use that ability

[1:26:23] if you're in charge of it and using it

[1:26:25] for the right reasons. But there are

[1:26:27] some people who use that ability to

[1:26:29] distort their perception of reality and

[1:26:31] ignore things that are damaging to

[1:26:33] themselves or to others. It's a capacity

[1:26:36] we have that we can identify and use it.

[1:26:39] And here you're somebody who has studied

[1:26:41] the self and how it feels and whose

[1:26:43] father taught you some hypnosis, who

[1:26:46] discovered something about yourself and

[1:26:47] your ability now and how hypnotizable

[1:26:49] you are and that that's a great thing

[1:26:52] and we want more and more people to have

[1:26:54] the ability to do it.

[1:26:56] >> Fantastic. We'll uh we'll leave links

[1:26:58] where people can find that and your work

[1:27:01] in the description. You have 13 books.

[1:27:04] You've seen over 7,000 patients. It's

[1:27:07] been 50 years in this work now. What's

[1:27:10] one truth if you had 60 seconds to share

[1:27:13] that you're more sure about being a

[1:27:15] human being now than when you started?

[1:27:20] Um

[1:27:22] I would say that um the more we learn

[1:27:27] how we process and change things, the

[1:27:30] better we can live. That that uh rather

[1:27:34] than being afraid of things that seem

[1:27:37] strange or too powerful or something, if

[1:27:40] we take hold of it and um drive the car

[1:27:45] better, our lives will be better. that

[1:27:48] recognize, you know, be proud of the

[1:27:50] fact that you can modulate perception

[1:27:52] and manage your emotion and restructure

[1:27:55] your memories of the past and think

[1:27:57] carefully about how to live and get into

[1:27:59] a flow state when you're trying to do

[1:28:01] things. Um, that's a tremendous ability

[1:28:04] and power that we have and we tend to

[1:28:06] hand that off. We tend to say, well, if

[1:28:08] I get the right drug, it'll be all

[1:28:09] right. Now, I use medications. I'm a

[1:28:11] doctor. But but there are a lot of times

[1:28:13] when that's not the answer and people

[1:28:15] feel disempowered by saying I can't

[1:28:18] handle this anxiety if I don't have this

[1:28:20] drug that I'm I should take rather than

[1:28:22] saying maybe there's another way I can

[1:28:24] manage this. So I I want to empower

[1:28:27] people to learn more about their innate

[1:28:30] abilities and make better use of them.

[1:28:34] >> You uh mentioned your son is a doctor of

[1:28:37] external spaces and I think you're doing

[1:28:39] what you said just that. you're a doctor

[1:28:41] of the internal spaces

[1:28:43] >> and um so thank you so much for the

[1:28:45] devotion and dedication to your work. I

[1:28:46] know it's helped countless individuals

[1:28:48] and I'm sure as a proxy through this

[1:28:50] conversation um

[1:28:53] >> thank you. Is there anything else on

[1:28:54] your mind or heart that you want to

[1:28:55] share?

[1:28:56] >> You're welcome. Well, no, I I appreciate

[1:28:58] the work that you're doing and helping

[1:29:01] people to get interested in things that

[1:29:04] we often don't take seriously. you know,

[1:29:06] how we think about ourselves and what we

[1:29:08] do and how we manage our experience and

[1:29:11] our emotions. And so, I think that you

[1:29:14] and your your uh following are people

[1:29:17] who can and are benefiting from from

[1:29:20] what you're doing that uh it's we're

[1:29:23] learning to take more control of our own

[1:29:25] lives in a very intimate and personal

[1:29:27] way and that's a great thing.

[1:29:31] >> Thank you, David. Appreciate you.

[1:29:33] >> Thank you, Andre. Everybody, until next

[1:29:35] time, [music] be well.

Know Thyself
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Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

Stage hypnosis selects only the 5% of highly hypnotizable people from an audience and uses hypnosis for entertainment, often at the subject's expense. Clinical hypnosis is a therapeutic tool used by trained professionals to help people manage pain, quit smoking, reduce stress, and reframe trauma—leveraging the same capacity for focused attention but toward genuine healing rather than humiliation.
Yes, according to Dr. Spiegel's decades of clinical work with thousands of patients. People can release addictions, shift personality patterns, and recover from depression in a single session. This is possible because personality is not a fixed structure but a convenient assumption your brain constructs. Hypnosis reveals and can reorganize this flexibility.
Memories are not neutral recordings; emotion and memory are stored together in the brain's affect-processing regions. During hypnosis, you can re-enter a memory while in a state of focused attention and alter its emotional valence—changing how the memory lives in your body and mind, rather than just thinking about it differently.
Dissociation—the ability to mentally separate from sensory experience—is an innate capacity that helps children survive abuse by leaving their body. This same capacity makes hypnosis possible. In adulthood, this mechanism can become habitual even when no longer needed, raising the honest question of whether your detachment is a protective skill or an old survival pattern still running.
Functional MRI shows that hypnosis alters brain connectivity: certain networks quiet while others activate. Activity decreases in regions associated with self-blame and rumination (the 'My Fault Network'), and attention shifts from the wandering Default Mode Network to focused, present-centered awareness. This neurological shift underlies hypnosis's therapeutic effects.
While hypnotizability varies, many people—not everyone, but many—can enter a hypnotic state with proper guidance. It is a learnable capacity that can be developed through practice. Clinical hypnosis apps and trained practitioners can help you access this state, even if you don't score a 9 out of 10 on initial hypnotizability screening.
Yes. In smoking cessation, hypnosis allows you to observe the craving without automatically acting on it, shifting your relationship to the habit. For pain, the sensory signal reaches the brain but loses its emotional tag—the pain is perceived but not suffered in the same way. This requires accessing the hypnotic state, not just willpower.

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Trying to Make Love Permanent Drains Its Life Force
Inspire

Trying to Make Love Permanent Drains Its Life Force

Anchoring relationships to a fixed moment in time drains the divine qualities that attracted you to a partner in the first place, creating s…

1 min read
Personality as Consciousness Garment: Beyond Identity
Inspire

Personality as Consciousness Garment: Beyond Identity

Explore how personality functions as a temporary form worn by consciousness itself, and what remains when identity dissolves.…

1 min read
Ocean Goddess Rising: Two Voices Reimagine Yemaya
Inspire

Ocean Goddess Rising: Two Voices Reimagine Yemaya

Deva Premal and Ajeet unite in a devotional collaboration honoring Yemaya, the Yoruba ocean goddess, recorded in Costa Rica with arbutar acc…

1 min read
Chanting Together: The Sacred Practice of Kirtan
Inspire

Chanting Together: The Sacred Practice of Kirtan

A Thursday night satsang showcases the transformative power of collective chanting, weaving Sanskrit invocations with musical ensemble and d…

1 min read

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