Transcript
[0:00] your personality. It's just a convenient
[0:02] assumption. We are a lot more tangible
[0:05] than we imagine. You ever get so caught
[0:07] up in a good movie that [music] you
[0:08] forget you're watching a movie and enter
[0:10] the imagined world?
[0:11] >> Yeah, hypnosis is like that. I've done
[0:14] it with 11,000 people in the course of
[0:16] my career. It's a state that many
[0:18] people, not everyone, but many [music]
[0:20] people can enter.
[0:21] >> Could you quickly tell how hypnotizable
[0:22] I am?
[0:23] >> Sure, I'd be happy to do it.
[0:26] >> It feels like my left hand is kind of
[0:27] just doing it by itself. You're very
[0:30] hypnotizable. Your score is 9 out of 10.
[0:33] >> Great. I guess.
[0:34] >> Oh, it is.
[0:35] >> It can really help you do unusual
[0:37] things. For example, you can handle
[0:38] stress better. You can reduce pain.
[0:40] [music] You can stop smoking. Hypnosis
[0:42] can also help you get a new point of
[0:44] view about an old problem. One of my
[0:46] patients [music] was sexually assaulted
[0:48] as a 12-year-old. She'd been in therapy
[0:49] for more than a decade, and I got her
[0:51] hypnotized, and I said, "Is that her
[0:54] fault?" She said, "No." She called me a
[0:56] week later. She said, "My psychiatrist
[0:58] wants to know what you did to me because
[1:00] I'm not depressed anymore." That's a
[1:03] [music] tremendous ability. Empower
[1:04] their pan. I want to empower people to
[1:07] learn more about their innate [music]
[1:08] abilities. So, first look at me and then
[1:11] look up to the top of your head. And as
[1:13] you [music] keep looking up, slowly
[1:14] close your eyes.
[1:21] Hey everyone, welcome back to the Know
[1:22] Thyself podcast. Our guest today is a
[1:24] Wilson professor and associate chair of
[1:27] psychiatry and behavioral sciences at
[1:29] Stanford. He's the co-founder of Rey, a
[1:32] hypnosis app. He is an author of over 13
[1:35] books and 400 papers and over the past
[1:39] 50 years, he's seen thousands of clients
[1:42] in a clinical hypnosis context. Dr.
[1:45] David Pel, thank you for being here.
[1:47] >> Thank you, Andre. Um, it's a pleasure to
[1:49] be here with you.
[1:50] >> What is hypnosis and why should anyone
[1:52] care about it? Well, um, given the, uh,
[1:55] lovely name of your program, I like to
[1:58] think of hypnosis as knowing thy selves.
[2:01] That, um, hypnosis helps you become and
[2:04] explore things that allow you to try out
[2:06] being different. It's a state of highly
[2:09] focused attention. Like, do you ever get
[2:11] so caught up in a good movie that you
[2:13] forget you're watching a movie and enter
[2:14] the imagined world? Yeah. Called
[2:16] believed in imagination. And our brains
[2:19] have the capacity and we understand a
[2:21] good deal now about how it our brains do
[2:23] these things to narrow the focus of
[2:26] attention to dissociate put outside of
[2:28] conscious awareness things that would
[2:30] ordinarily be in consciousness and to
[2:33] have a hyperconnection between the brain
[2:36] and the body to do things to your body
[2:38] and perceive things from your body that
[2:41] ordinarily you wouldn't think you could
[2:42] do. So it's a it's a form of very
[2:46] rapidly
[2:48] both dividing and experiencing things in
[2:52] a way that is unique and novel and can
[2:54] be very helpful to people.
[2:58] you've shared many times and hopefully
[3:00] it's not beating a dead horse, but
[3:03] most people are familiar with hypnosis
[3:07] in the kind of carnival setting, you
[3:09] know, in the stage hypnosis
[3:10] >> and um as you so beautifully said with
[3:13] the many selves and the know thyelves
[3:15] and and helping people um
[3:18] [clears throat]
[3:19] navigate this complex dynamic inner
[3:22] realm um is a completely different thing
[3:24] than what most people are familiar with
[3:25] in the stage. hypnosis. What is the
[3:27] difference?
[3:28] >> Well, you know, stage hypnosis is I
[3:31] don't like it. Um, you know, it's but
[3:33] you know, uh, you know, then there are
[3:36] snake oil salesman for drugs, too. I
[3:38] mean, you can find a bad example of a
[3:40] good thing. Um, and, um,
[3:44] the fact that, you know, the football
[3:46] coach will dance like a ballerina, some
[3:48] football coaches, you know, the the the
[3:51] stage hypnotists don't just do what they
[3:54] do with anybody. They they search the
[3:56] audience for those 5% of people who are
[3:59] extremely hypnotizable. So it it doesn't
[4:02] work with everybody, but what they do is
[4:05] they get people to try out being
[4:07] different to see what it would be like
[4:10] if the football coach pretended he was a
[4:12] ballerina without thinking about what's
[4:14] going to happen in the locker room the
[4:16] next day when when the team says, "Hey
[4:18] coach, you know, you look pretty funny
[4:20] there." Um, and so I don't like it ma to
[4:24] make fun of people, to embarrass them,
[4:26] but I do think there's a point. And the
[4:28] point is that if you focus very
[4:30] intently, um, you can mobilize resources
[4:34] you might not have been able to do
[4:35] otherwise. You can put outside of
[4:38] conscious awareness things that might
[4:39] inhibit you or fear or failure or having
[4:43] tried doing something like skiing or
[4:46] playing tennis or something that you
[4:47] hadn't done before. and allow yourself
[4:50] to see what it would be like if you
[4:52] could engage with it in an intense way.
[4:55] And hypnosis is like that. It's it's
[4:57] it's a state that many people, not
[5:00] everyone, but many people can enter that
[5:02] allows you to connect in interesting and
[5:06] strong ways with your body to put
[5:08] outside of conscious awareness things
[5:10] that might haunt you or trouble you and
[5:12] to try out what it would be like if you
[5:14] were that different person.
[5:18] And you've worked for decades now seeing
[5:22] many instances where in a single session
[5:25] somebody releases an addiction, a
[5:27] personality trait changes. What does
[5:29] that suggest about the ephemeral and
[5:32] malleable nature of our personality and
[5:35] self?
[5:36] >> It it suggests that we are a lot more
[5:38] tangible than we imagine. Um that uh you
[5:42] can really try out being different and
[5:44] see what it feels like. Uh, for example,
[5:47] I um saw a woman who um grew up in a
[5:51] country that was not particularly kind
[5:53] to women. Um, she had suffered as a
[5:56] 12-year-old from having been sexually
[5:59] assaulted by the landlord. The family
[6:01] was afraid to do anything about it. She
[6:04] lived with that. She said, "I, as a girl
[6:06] walking on the streets, people felt they
[6:08] could say anything they wanted to to
[6:09] me." And she got to the to the United
[6:12] States. She had got a job, was
[6:15] functioning pretty well, uh but was
[6:17] chronically depressed and um uh she
[6:21] tried all kinds of medication. She had
[6:22] been in therapy for more than a decade.
[6:25] Um and she just didn't feel right. She
[6:28] didn't feel herself. And she was very
[6:31] hypnotizable. And I I said to her, "I
[6:35] want you to go back and see yourself as
[6:38] that 12-year-old girl just after she had
[6:41] been raped." and she starts to cry. And
[6:44] you know, you may think, "Oh, good,
[6:46] good, duck. You know, you're making her
[6:47] feel more miserable. She's depressed and
[6:49] you're making her feel worse." And I
[6:51] said, "I want you to answer one question
[6:53] for me. Is Is that her fault?" And she
[6:57] said, "No, I'm stroking her hair. I'm
[7:00] stroking her hair." And she cried some
[7:03] more and then she left. And she called
[7:06] me a week later and she said, "My Dr.
[7:09] Spiegel, my psychiatrist wants to know
[7:11] what you did to me because I'm not
[7:13] depressed anymore.
[7:15] And she had lived with this feeling. You
[7:18] know, many people who were assaulted
[7:20] physically or sexually blame themselves
[7:22] for things they didn't control. And
[7:24] especially children who don't understand
[7:26] independent causation. And we would
[7:29] rather feel guilty than helpless. And so
[7:32] if you think I could have done
[7:33] something, it gives you a fantasy that
[7:35] you could have controlled something that
[7:37] you couldn't. Trauma is making a person
[7:38] into an object, a thing, and you lose
[7:41] agency. You lose control over your body.
[7:44] And the best thing to do is to get into
[7:47] a mode where you can see it for what it
[7:49] was. And that's what she did. And she
[7:52] stopped blaming yourself for it. And so
[7:56] with hypnosis can be a powerful way of
[7:59] helping people get a new point of view
[8:02] about an old problem.
[8:05] >> Well said. I think we can all relate to
[8:08] the times throughout our days or weeks
[8:10] or months and we replay past old events
[8:13] or we fantasize about a potential future
[8:16] one. And there's something paradoxical
[8:20] about living in the mind in these two
[8:23] states when we can only be here in this
[8:25] moment. And there's something liberating
[8:27] about that perspective that you gave
[8:28] which I want to see if we can
[8:30] extrapolate and zoom in on um
[8:32] >> to see how it pertains to everybody
[8:36] when a traumatic or a past experience
[8:39] occurs. What is the neurological process
[8:41] of memory reconstruction? Because we
[8:44] have these events and then we think we
[8:46] have an idea of what they actually look
[8:49] like and what actually happened. And I'm
[8:51] just I'm just personally kind of
[8:53] wrestling with this idea of maybe the
[8:56] past the only place the past actually
[8:58] lives is in like the emotional residue
[9:01] in our body associated with that event.
[9:04] And um I'm curious your your thought on
[9:06] that and how memory gets constructed.
[9:08] >> Well,
[9:10] it's an important question and memory is
[9:13] stored particularly recent memories in
[9:15] the hippocample gyrus. It's deep in the
[9:18] brain. It's right near the amydala and
[9:20] other parts of the brains that that
[9:21] manage a effect and more routine kinds
[9:25] of memories like place you know London
[9:27] taxi drivers had larger parietal loes
[9:30] cuz they had to memorize all these
[9:32] strange streets in London. Um but um a
[9:35] lot of memory and particularly memory
[9:37] that involves either negative
[9:40] experiences like being assaulted or
[9:42] positive experiences like being in love.
[9:45] The memories are
[9:47] laid down, stored and retrieved from
[9:49] parts of the brain that are very close
[9:51] to the parts that manage emotion either
[9:55] anger or fear or joy, sadness,
[9:58] happiness. And um so affect colors
[10:02] memory and memory colors affect. If you
[10:05] think about a time when you were
[10:07] humiliated or treated badly or
[10:09] assaulted, you'll tend to feel bad. If
[10:12] you think about a time um where you
[10:14] achieved something or fell in love or
[10:17] did something positive, those memories
[10:19] will be also tagged with an emotion. So
[10:22] they're not just stored and then you
[10:24] paint on the emotion later. They're
[10:26] constructed with an emotional loading
[10:29] and that's an opport it's it can be a
[10:31] problem. It can be an opportunity. It's
[10:33] you know part of what makes life
[10:35] enjoyable but it's part of what can make
[10:37] life terrible too. And hypnosis, because
[10:39] of the narrowness of focus, allows you
[10:42] to focus in on one part of experience to
[10:45] not just remember a thing that happened,
[10:47] but relive it, see what it felt like at
[10:49] the time. So you're not looking back and
[10:52] judging it. You're experience, you're
[10:54] reexperiencing it the way my patient
[10:56] did. And that naturally comes with
[11:01] emotion.
[11:03] Hm.
[11:04] To me, in that instance, it feels like
[11:06] you're going back into this invisible
[11:09] thing called the mind, having this
[11:12] imaginal experience of encountering your
[11:14] younger self and embracing them in a way
[11:16] emotionally that somehow resolves
[11:20] depression in the present moment. It's
[11:24] it's fascinating and it rewrites how we
[11:27] can work with these difficulties in a
[11:30] largely pharmaceutical centric approach
[11:34] for for these mental ailments. So what
[11:37] are your what are your thoughts on I
[11:40] mean obviously you're a big fan of
[11:42] hypnosis. You're you're the guy
[11:44] [laughter]
[11:45] and you've seen how it's really been
[11:47] able to help people for so long.
[11:48] >> Yes. Um, most people haven't been able
[11:51] to experience that. Maybe they haven't
[11:52] just done hypnosis at large. But the
[11:54] fact that you that's possible or
[11:56] potentially on offer depending on
[11:58] someone's hypnotizability and what they
[12:00] have to work with is quite astounding.
[12:03] >> Well, I'm you know, I'm glad to hear you
[12:05] say that hypnosis is the oldest western
[12:07] conception of a psychotherapy. It's the
[12:10] first time a talking interaction between
[12:11] a doctor and a patient was thought to
[12:13] have therapeutic potential. It's more
[12:16] than 200 years old. Um Freud used it and
[12:20] in his early work, his early writings on
[12:22] studies in hysteria, he was hypnotizing
[12:24] patients um to help them recall things
[12:28] in their past that might be related to
[12:30] their current uh problems. That's not a
[12:33] novel idea. Um, Freud gave it up because
[12:37] during one hypnotic session, uh, a young
[12:40] woman threw her arms around his neck and
[12:42] he said, "I was modest enough not to
[12:45] attribute this to my own irresistible
[12:46] personal attractiveness. [laughter]
[12:48] But I discovered the mysterious element
[12:50] beneath hypnosis. It was transference."
[12:52] So people transfer feelings onto the
[12:54] therapist that they had from early
[12:56] experiences in life. And that's why
[12:59] there's a couch in psychoanalysis
[13:00] actually. Um but it was it was powerful.
[13:05] Uh a vianese physician named France
[13:07] Anton Mesmer um uh was using what he
[13:11] then called animal magnetism. He thought
[13:13] that there were magnetic fields in the
[13:15] brain that could be influenced by the
[13:16] therapist and you could change the way
[13:18] the brain function. Uh we actually do
[13:20] that now with transcranial magnetic
[13:22] stimulation which is a very good
[13:24] treatment for depression and obsessive
[13:25] compulsive and traumatic experiences.
[13:28] Um but uh it's also it was at the time
[13:33] uh considered a kind of strange thing to
[13:37] do and was not what the rest of doctors
[13:40] were doing. They were mostly doing
[13:41] bloodletting for one problem after
[13:43] another and um it it uh fell out of
[13:47] favor because he was so successful in
[13:51] competing against French physicians. You
[13:53] know he his office was not drab and
[13:55] grim. It was bright and cheerful and
[13:57] patients would hung around there and
[13:59] talked to one another and uh so he was
[14:01] investigated by a French panel of
[14:03] experts including our own Benjamin
[14:06] Franklin who was having fun in Paris at
[14:08] the time. The great uh brilliant chemist
[14:11] Lavoisier
[14:13] who discovered the principles of oxygen
[14:14] chemistry and invented the gross
[14:17] national product concept before he was
[14:19] beheaded in the French Revolution and uh
[14:23] Dr. Guillot was on the panel, the
[14:25] inventor of the guillotine. You might
[14:27] say he created the mind body problem.
[14:30] And um this group decided that hypnosis
[14:33] was nothing but heated imagination.
[14:36] Now I I've heard of worse definitions. I
[14:39] think that's not bad actually. And in a
[14:41] way, what you do and what you talk about
[14:43] and knowing thyself uh involves heating
[14:46] up your imagination and using it in
[14:47] different ways. So, um, it's been around
[14:50] for a long time, but it suffered one
[14:52] rejection after another, but it won't
[14:53] quite go away because it's just so
[14:56] interesting and so effective and and
[14:59] that's why my colleagues and I built
[15:00] Rey. We thought, you know, hypnosis is
[15:03] is not dangerous. It's helpful. It's
[15:06] interesting. And why not make it
[15:08] available to as many people as possible
[15:10] to use it, learn from it, and benefit
[15:12] from it.
[15:14] So what's happening neurochemically in
[15:17] the induction in the hypnosis state?
[15:19] >> Um there are three things. We've done
[15:21] functional magnetic resonance imaging of
[15:24] high and low hypnotizable people in and
[15:26] out of hypnotic states and we noticed
[15:29] three things going on in the brain. Uh
[15:32] one is a reduction in activity in the
[15:35] dorsal part of the anterior singulate
[15:37] cortex. Now, the singulate cortex is
[15:39] like a sea on its ends, right in the
[15:41] middle of the base of your brain, and
[15:43] it's part of the salience network. It's
[15:46] the part of the brain that fires off
[15:47] when you hear a loud noise or you're
[15:49] scared about something. Um, and uh if
[15:52] you can turn down activity there, it
[15:55] allows you to be less distracted by
[15:57] other considerations by narrowing your
[15:59] focus. You know, it's like getting lost
[16:01] in a good movie. You know, you just
[16:03] don't judge it, you experience it. And
[16:05] if you've turned down the alarm system
[16:07] in the brain, it's easier to do that.
[16:10] The second thing is there's an increase
[16:12] in what we call functional connectivity
[16:15] uh between the left uh uh executive
[16:19] control network, the prefrontal cortex,
[16:21] dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex, um and
[16:24] [clears throat] the insula, which is an
[16:26] island of tissue, insula means island in
[16:28] Latin, in the middle of the frontal
[16:30] cortex that is a mindbody conduit. It's
[16:33] what transmits interception feelings
[16:36] from your body and it's the way the
[16:38] brain controls what's going on in your
[16:40] body. So you increase the ability of
[16:43] your thoughts to influence your body and
[16:45] to be exposed to what's going on in the
[16:47] body when you do it. The third thing
[16:50] that happens is reduced functional
[16:52] connectivity. So a kind of disconnection
[16:55] between the executive control network
[16:58] and the posterior singulate cortex. Now
[17:00] that's an interesting part of the brain.
[17:02] um that's called the part of the default
[17:05] mode network uh where people think about
[17:08] who they are, what they are. It kind of
[17:11] preserves your assumptions and
[17:13] expectations about who you are and what
[17:15] you are. It's the kind of thing that
[17:18] happens. It gets active when you're not
[17:21] doing a task or you're not planning
[17:23] something. You're just sitting around
[17:25] and thinking and you start to wonder who
[17:26] am I? What am I? Would my mother be
[17:28] proud of me now? All kinds of things
[17:30] like that. So it it helps to maintain
[17:33] constancy in your view of yourself and
[17:36] that can be a good thing but I sometimes
[17:39] call it the my fault mode network
[17:41] because it's also a place where if you
[17:43] have irrational beliefs about yourself
[17:46] um or you know feeling unconscious or
[17:49] conscious pressure from other people
[17:50] around you or from your family to do
[17:52] things that you don't want to do. It
[17:54] kind of keeps you on that track and that
[17:57] can interfere with growth and change. uh
[18:00] it can just keep you thinking I should
[18:02] be doing this, I shouldn't be doing
[18:03] that. Um and if you can inhibit
[18:06] activity, disconnect what you're doing
[18:08] from what you think the expectation is
[18:10] you should be doing, that helps you to
[18:13] try out being different. So the what
[18:16] we've seen in the brain is this uh
[18:19] combination of reducing your sort of
[18:21] fears and arousal from other things that
[18:24] you might worry about enhancing your
[18:26] connection with your body and
[18:28] disconnecting from the part of your
[18:31] brain that is telling you who you ought
[18:33] to be and what you ought to be. So you
[18:35] get to try out being different. Hm. Is
[18:38] there anything that we that would be
[18:40] helpful to know about how these memories
[18:42] and these assumptions and a priorize are
[18:44] formed
[18:46] that would reveal like the nature of the
[18:48] structure of them? Well, um, it part of
[18:54] it just the fact that there's a whole
[18:56] circuit in the brain, the the default
[18:58] mode network that kind of guards your
[19:01] assumptions of who you are and what you
[19:03] are provides a kind of self-constancy.
[19:06] And I know many of the people, you know,
[19:08] who have been on your show, Tim Ferrris
[19:11] and Sam and others have have talked
[19:13] about um, you know, the problems with
[19:17] having this sort of illusory self or
[19:19] just being governed by a conception of
[19:22] who you should be and what you should
[19:23] be. On the other hand, we need certain
[19:26] constancy in life and our life
[19:27] experience will shape us in in ways that
[19:30] sometimes are good things, not bad. But
[19:33] what is particularly, I think, exciting
[19:36] about hypnosis is that you can change in
[19:39] a hurry. You can just see what it would
[19:41] be like if you were different. And um
[19:46] make it a a system that you use, but not
[19:49] a system that uses you. That it helps
[19:52] you to to
[19:54] regulate who you want to be, not just
[19:56] who you are. And that's a task that many
[19:59] people who are on a path like yours
[20:01] looking for ways to discover who we
[20:03] might be and not make assumptions that
[20:06] wind up limiting us. Um, and hypnosis is
[20:10] a way to do that intensely and in a
[20:12] hurry. [clears throat]
[20:15] >> It makes me just inquire how
[20:19] how much of our individual personality
[20:22] which we
[20:24] defend and say is ours.
[20:26] >> Mhm. And there [clears throat] is we
[20:28] have this like kind of imperative to
[20:30] protect and defend because it's our
[20:34] identity. Um and in these meditative
[20:37] journeys in these hypnotizable states
[20:40] when there is a transformation of that
[20:42] identity that can occur in a relatively
[20:44] short amount of time. It just to me
[20:45] breeds a lot of
[20:48] insight into the nature of these things
[20:50] in and of themselves. like we don't
[20:51] realize to the degree the perspectives
[20:54] we're looking through because we're just
[20:56] looking through them, you know, and um
[20:59] it just I keep getting this feeling when
[21:01] I when I look at your work and in this
[21:03] conversation that like freedom is on
[21:05] this like it's like on the other side of
[21:07] a coin just like really not that far
[21:08] available to us. Um which is which is a
[21:12] powerful and empowering perspective. Um
[21:15] and my my my friend Peter says uh
[21:17] self-righteousness is a poor man's
[21:19] version of selfworth.
[21:22] >> [laughter]
[21:23] >> That's a good line. I like that. Well,
[21:25] you know, I I call what you do with
[21:27] hypnosis transformation. T R A N C E.
[21:31] >> Because you can change, transform, but
[21:34] you can do it by forming another way of
[21:37] being, a way of thinking about things
[21:39] differently. And hypnosis allows you to
[21:42] do that with intensity and do it in a
[21:44] hurry. Um, and you know, it it's sort of
[21:48] like, you know, when you take a trip and
[21:51] you see a part of the world you've never
[21:53] seen before,
[21:55] it gives you a different perspective on
[21:56] the part of the world you have seen
[21:58] before and you realize that, you know,
[22:00] the people don't have this beautiful
[22:02] view of the Tanga Canyon the way you do.
[22:06] Um, but it puts into perspective the way
[22:09] we live, you know, surrounded by bricks
[22:12] and buildings and things and you start
[22:14] to think, you know, there's another way
[22:15] to live. There's another way to be. And
[22:18] um, I think hypnosis is very helpful
[22:21] because it allows you to get a an
[22:23] intense taste of that and see if you
[22:26] really it would be better for you to be
[22:28] different.
[22:29] >> How do you gauge someone's
[22:30] hypnotizability?
[22:32] So hypnotizability
[22:34] is um it's an it it's a very stable
[22:37] trait. Um it's it's uh most children are
[22:41] hypnotizable. Most children are in
[22:43] transances most of the time. You know,
[22:45] they're out playing and you call them in
[22:46] and they don't hear you. They're doing
[22:48] their thing. And children, you know, all
[22:49] work and play are all the same thing for
[22:51] kids. So they inhabit. They don't just
[22:54] learn and do something because they're
[22:55] supposed to do it. They inhabit it. They
[22:58] they enjoy it. They play with it.
[23:00] They're they're they're interacting with
[23:02] it in that way. And that in a way it's
[23:05] kind of a shame that we make them into
[23:07] little adults because um the kind of
[23:10] life that you live when work and play
[23:13] are all the same thing is pretty nice
[23:15] actually. And so that kind of intensity
[23:18] can be very helpful. By the time you in
[23:22] in adolescence we some of us lose that
[23:24] hypnotizability.
[23:26] Um and uh you know adolescence has been
[23:29] called a time when you favor formal
[23:31] operations when when you don't just um
[23:35] make decisions on the way things appear
[23:37] or you think they might be and you use
[23:40] logic and reason to say is it really
[23:41] possible so you begin to favor logic
[23:43] over experience and by the time you're
[23:46] in your early 20s your hypnotizability
[23:48] is as stable as your IQ. So there have
[23:51] been studies at Stanford 25-y year
[23:53] interval they blindly retested former
[23:56] psych one students who'd had their
[23:57] hypnotizability tested and there was a 7
[24:00] correlation between their
[24:01] hypnotizability at age 20 and at age 50.
[24:06] Um so uh it it's a very stable trait.
[24:10] How do we do it? Um we have a a measure
[24:13] called the hypnotic induction profile.
[24:16] Uh it's uh it's a a brief hypnotic
[24:19] induction in which I have people first
[24:20] of all look up and slowly close their
[24:22] eyes. Take a deep breath, let the breath
[24:25] out, eyes relax, body float, and then I
[24:27] give them an instruction about one of
[24:29] their hands. I say let it float up in
[24:31] the air like a balloon. When I pull it
[24:34] down, it will float right back up to the
[24:36] upright position. You'll find something
[24:38] pleasant amusing about it. Um uh but
[24:41] when I touch your left elbow, your usual
[24:43] sensation and control will return. and
[24:45] we study how they react to that. And for
[24:48] some people very quickly, um, you pull
[24:52] the hand down and they just look at it.
[24:54] There's a great YouTube with my friend
[24:55] Andrew Hubberman doing the test and he's
[24:59] looking at this and he says, "What is my
[25:01] hand doing?" You know, and he had he
[25:04] said it's sort of not like it's not a
[25:05] part of me, you know, and for this
[25:07] brilliant tough guy to be sort of
[25:10] puzzled by the disobedience of his own
[25:12] hand is kind of fun, but it that's that
[25:15] capacity to dissociate. So, you can play
[25:17] with it, you can have fun with it, and
[25:20] then you're given instruction to end it.
[25:22] And most people are surprised that it
[25:24] stops. So we we have a way of scoring
[25:27] this experience from on a 0 to 10 scale
[25:30] and it's a very stable trait and I can
[25:33] do the assessment in five or six minutes
[25:35] and I've done it with every one of the
[25:38] 7,000 people I've used hypnosis with in
[25:40] the course of my career
[25:42] >> and it helps me and and one reason I
[25:45] like the concept is a it helps me to
[25:47] design the best approach to treatment.
[25:52] Uh because for the highs, you just tell
[25:54] them what to do when they do it, you
[25:56] know, and that you'll tell they they
[25:58] they have special problems, you know,
[26:00] it's a wonderful skill that they have,
[26:03] but their problem is that it's so easy
[26:04] for them to see things from another
[26:07] person's point of view that they often
[26:09] lose themselves, you know, and their
[26:11] problem is is is not maintaining that
[26:15] default mode constancy in who they are
[26:18] because the other person said seems very
[26:20] reasonable, you know. Uh, one of my
[26:22] patients said, "I'm a disciple in search
[26:24] of a teacher." You know, I'm always
[26:25] looking for somebody. On the other
[26:27] extreme, the the low hypnotizables,
[26:31] we call them abalonians. They value
[26:32] reason over experience and um they want
[26:36] they want a reason and a rationale and
[26:38] research and everything to accept
[26:40] anything. So, they're they judge things
[26:43] and evaluate things. So with them, my
[26:45] approach is different that I'm
[26:46] explaining why I'm doing what I'm doing
[26:48] and how they might help themselves if
[26:50] they choose to do it. Whereas with the
[26:51] highs, you just say, "Go for it. You
[26:53] know, you could do it." And most of us
[26:55] are in the mid-range where they get into
[26:57] that, but then they step back and they
[26:59] wonder, "Should I do this?" We call them
[27:01] Odesians. That movie Odysius is out now.
[27:03] He was he was tied to the mast of the
[27:05] ship, so he could hear the sirens, but
[27:07] not go to them, you know. And so you you
[27:11] have the experience but then you think
[27:12] it over and see is it the right thing to
[27:14] do. So it helps me structure my approach
[27:19] to people and how I help them. And it is
[27:21] a very stable trait and it's um uh in
[27:26] part people get this uh this uh get this
[27:29] way um through um uh life experience.
[27:34] There are people who are raised with
[27:36] what are called imaginative
[27:37] involvements. So parents who tell read
[27:40] them bedtime stories every night tend to
[27:42] be more hypnotizable. They have positive
[27:44] associations to using their imagination
[27:46] in that way. And uh when my son was a
[27:50] kid once I used to have the kids take an
[27:53] imaginary float down a river as they
[27:54] were going to sleep and they like that.
[27:56] And um I was out in the backyard doing
[27:59] something and my son who was then about
[28:01] seven or eight came out and said uh dad
[28:04] I can't sleep. I need a professional. He
[28:06] said you [laughter] know. So with kids
[28:09] who have those experiences, they tend to
[28:11] be more hypnotizable. However, uh
[28:14] there's another not so pleasant reason
[28:16] and that is uh people who have been
[28:18] physically or sexually abused,
[28:20] mistreated also tend to be very
[28:22] hypnotizable because they would tell me
[28:26] uh when my father and his friends came
[28:28] and assaulted me, I would just go to a
[28:31] men mountain meadow of wild flowers and
[28:34] they do whatever they did to my body and
[28:36] I would just do that. And um
[28:39] [snorts and clears throat] uh so that's
[28:41] a kind of bad way people would get to be
[28:43] more hypnotizable too. And there's a
[28:45] biological part. So dopamine is a major
[28:48] neurotransmitter in the brain. Um and
[28:51] people who have a particular genetic
[28:54] variant of the catalomethyl transferase
[28:56] gene which metabolizes dopamine um are
[29:00] more hypnotizable than those who either
[29:03] metabolize it too quickly or too slowly.
[29:05] So these are people who get about the
[29:07] right level and the levels of a dopamine
[29:10] metabolite homoanelic acid in the
[29:12] cerebral spinal fluid is correlated with
[29:15] hypnotizability. So it's partly
[29:17] neurochemical. It's partly experiential.
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[30:27] show.
[30:30] What does someone's suggestability
[30:33] suggest about them? Like what is
[30:35] somebody who is very hypnotizable?
[30:38] You gave a couple examples there, but
[30:39] what is the quality or correlation if
[30:42] you can pull any uh the quality of their
[30:44] life different from somebody who's very
[30:46] low?
[30:47] >> They tend to be imaginative um creative
[30:50] types,
[30:50] >> cooperative, more creative types. They
[30:52] just they go with whatever takes them,
[30:55] you know, they don't judge it. They have
[30:57] the experience first, they do it and
[30:59] later on they might think about they did
[31:00] it and why they did it. But uh they tend
[31:04] to be sociable. Uh they tend other
[31:07] people tend to like them because they
[31:09] catch on and they don't judge and
[31:10] evaluate people so much as sort of soak
[31:13] up what's going on in the social
[31:15] environment and do it. Um whereas the
[31:19] lowhypnotizables are always judging and
[31:22] evaluating and uh you know I had one it
[31:25] happened I was treating two women at the
[31:27] same time for trickotillan mania you
[31:29] know it's pathological hair pulling and
[31:31] one was a high hypnotizable it turned
[31:35] out and um she was very frustrated she
[31:38] was pulling out her hair and she said
[31:39] you know my hair was so beautiful that
[31:42] the hairdresser in my town would do my
[31:44] hair for free if he could post fig you
[31:46] know pictures of my hair when it was
[31:49] done and and um but she said he was
[31:52] starting to come on to me and I couldn't
[31:55] I was having trouble resisting. So, it's
[31:57] one of these things where she was
[31:58] feeling too drawn even though she knew
[32:00] she didn't want to get involved with
[32:01] this guy. She was also somebody who
[32:04] loved animals and if she'd see an animal
[32:07] hurt by the side of the road, she'd pull
[32:09] the car over and do something to help
[32:10] him. And so I she was very hypnotizable
[32:14] and I got her hypnotized and I said,
[32:16] "Um, so if you saw a wounded animal, you
[32:20] would go over and help him. Would you
[32:21] would you ever just leave it lying there
[32:24] and pull its hair out in in little
[32:26] clumps?" She said, "No, I would never do
[32:27] that." So I said, "Why don't you treat
[32:29] your body the same way you treat a
[32:31] wounded animal? And if you feel a a move
[32:34] to do it, stroke it. Stroke your hair.
[32:37] Don't pull it, you know, if you're
[32:38] interested in it for some reason." and
[32:41] and she
[32:44] and I said one other thing, tell the
[32:45] hairdresser to go to hell. You know,
[32:47] you're not interested and find another
[32:49] hairdresser, you know, which she, you
[32:51] know, when I said it, she said, "Yeah,
[32:53] you know, you're right. I should really
[32:54] do that." But she didn't within herself,
[32:56] she didn't want to hurt his feelings,
[32:57] you know, and so she stopped just like
[33:00] that. Um, I had another patient about
[33:03] the same time who was also pulling out
[33:05] her hair and she said, "I'm getting at
[33:07] my naughty nerves." and she was an
[33:09] accountant and she was, you know, did
[33:11] everything by the books and was very
[33:13] intense. And um she came in a week later
[33:18] and she had plotted out a map of the
[33:21] proportion of pre-treatment hair pulling
[33:23] that she had done since she saw me and
[33:26] the first part it actually went up and
[33:28] then it sort of went down and eventually
[33:30] and I was just telling her isn't it's
[33:31] irrational to do something that
[33:33] deliberately harms your body. Why would
[33:35] you do that? And she stopped but much
[33:38] more gradually and only after arguing
[33:40] with me she wouldn't even let me do the
[33:41] hypnotic induction profile on the first
[33:43] session which I always do because and
[33:45] then when I did it she said well you
[33:47] just invented that to prove to me that
[33:48] there are differences in
[33:49] hypnotizability. She was arguing with me
[33:51] all the time. So same problem ultimately
[33:54] the same result but a very different
[33:56] path to it.
[33:58] >> Could you quickly tell how hypnotizable
[34:00] I am?
[34:02] >> Sure I could. I mean, I could do the
[34:04] test if you want or
[34:06] >> I'm just curious. I'm curious.
[34:08] >> I'd be happy to do it. Now, normally I
[34:10] get close enough to touch. So, if you
[34:13] want, I can do that and we can
[34:15] >> You want me to come closer?
[34:16] >> Uh, yes, that would be good.
[34:20] >> Okay. It's like,
[34:21] >> so,
[34:22] >> okay.
[34:22] >> So, rest, arms on your legs. Good.
[34:25] [snorts] Um,
[34:27] now first look at me and then look up to
[34:29] the top of your head, but keep your head
[34:32] >> the way it is, but look up toward your
[34:34] eyebrows. Oh, good. All the way up. And
[34:36] as you keep looking up, slowly close
[34:38] your eyes. Close.
[34:41] Good. Take a deep breath.
[34:44] Let the breath out slowly through your
[34:46] mouth.
[34:48] Let your eyes relax, but keep them
[34:49] closed and let your body float. Imagine
[34:53] you're floating somewhere
[34:55] safe and comfortable like a bath, a
[34:57] lake, a hot tub, or just floating in
[34:59] space. And while you concentrate
[35:03] on your body floating, I'm going to
[35:04] concentrate on your left hand and arm.
[35:07] In a moment, I'm going to stroke the
[35:09] middle finger of your left hand. When I
[35:11] do, you'll develop a sense of tingling
[35:14] and numbness and lightness, and you'll
[35:16] let it float up. Ready?
[35:21] Good. First, you may notice some
[35:23] restless movement sensations in your
[35:25] fingers, which will spread to your hand
[35:27] and arm. And you may get the sense of a
[35:30] magnetic pull as your elbow bends and
[35:32] your forearm floats into the upright
[35:34] position higher and higher.
[35:40] Good. All the way up.
[35:44] Now, I'm going to position your arm like
[35:46] so and give you this instruction. Your
[35:49] hand will remain light and in this
[35:51] upright position even after I give you
[35:53] the signal for your eyes to open.
[35:56] Later
[35:57] when I pull your hand back down to your
[35:59] leg, it will float right back up to the
[36:02] upright position. You'll find something
[36:04] pleasant and amusing about this
[36:05] sensation.
[36:07] After that, when I touch your left
[36:09] elbow, your usual sensation and control
[36:13] will return. Each time you go into the
[36:15] state of concentration, you'll find it
[36:17] easier and easier to do. And you can use
[36:19] it to help you concentrate on what's
[36:22] important to you. Right now, we'll come
[36:25] out of this state of concentration
[36:26] together by counting backwards from 3 to
[36:29] one. On three, you'll get ready. On two,
[36:31] with your eyelids closed, roll up your
[36:33] eyes. And one, let your eyes open.
[36:34] Ready? 3 2 one.
[36:41] Good. You can let your eyes relax now.
[36:47] And please describe what physical
[36:48] sensations you're aware of now in your
[36:50] left hand and arm.
[36:54] >> Uh sort of lightness.
[36:56] >> Lightness.
[36:57] >> Yeah.
[36:58] >> Is it comfortable?
[36:59] >> Yeah.
[37:00] >> Any tingling sensation? Yeah, it is.
[37:02] >> Uh yeah, a little tingling the hand
[37:06] finger.
[37:07] >> Does your left hand feel as if it's not
[37:09] as much a part of your body as your
[37:10] right hand?
[37:11] >> It does feel. It feels a bit
[37:14] >> disconnected.
[37:14] >> Yeah.
[37:15] >> Um uh raise your right hand.
[37:18] >> Yeah.
[37:18] >> Put your right arm down.
[37:20] >> Are you aware of a relative difference
[37:21] in your sense of control over one hand
[37:23] going up compared to the other?
[37:25] >> Yeah. It feels like my left hand is kind
[37:26] of just doing it by itself.
[37:28] >> So you have more control over the right.
[37:30] >> Yeah.
[37:31] >> Okay. Now, please note this.
[37:46] Definitely feel it wanting to go back
[37:47] up.
[37:48] >> It wants to go back up.
[37:50] >> Does that surprise you?
[37:53] >> It's a bit surprising, [laughter] but I
[37:55] also am being hypnotized.
[37:57] >> Yeah, you are.
[37:59] >> So, it's not out of the question.
[38:01] >> Good. Raise your right hand. Put it
[38:05] down.
[38:06] difference in your sense of control over
[38:09] the right hand.
[38:10] >> And you have more control over which
[38:12] hand.
[38:13] >> All right.
[38:13] >> Or you're right. Okay. Good. And that
[38:16] surprises you a little.
[38:17] >> Mhm.
[38:18] >> All right. Good. Now make a fist with
[38:20] this hand.
[38:21] >> Right fist
[38:22] >> open.
[38:23] >> Mhm.
[38:24] >> Are you aware of a difference in
[38:26] sensation and control now in your
[38:27] left-handed arm compared to a moment
[38:29] before?
[38:30] >> Yeah, it feels more back.
[38:31] >> More back. So the control is equal now
[38:33] in the two hands.
[38:35] Did I do or say anything that would
[38:37] indicate there'd be a change in
[38:38] sensation or control in your left hand
[38:40] and arm?
[38:42] >> I don't think so. Did you do or say
[38:44] anything?
[38:45] >> Did I say anything about your elbow or
[38:47] touching your elbow?
[38:48] >> Um I recalled you saying something
[38:51] earlier in the podcast about the elbow
[38:53] and Yeah.
[38:54] >> Okay. Um did you have a sense of
[38:57] floating lightness or buoyancy in your
[38:58] >> I did. I felt like it wanted to move up
[39:00] and it was just like kind of Yeah. Did
[39:03] you have that sense in any other part of
[39:04] your body? Head, neck, thighs, abdomen,
[39:06] chest, all over, or just your left hand
[39:08] and arm?
[39:08] >> No, just my left hand.
[39:10] >> Hand and arm.
[39:11] >> Okay. Well, you're very hypnotizable.
[39:12] Your score is nine out of 10. [laughter]
[39:15] >> Okay.
[39:15] >> There. And do you kind of lose yourself
[39:18] in things, get so caught up in a good
[39:20] movie, you forget you're watching a
[39:21] movie? And
[39:22] >> yeah, I mean, I definitely can.
[39:25] >> Yeah.
[39:26] >> So, yes, you're extremely hypnotizable.
[39:28] >> Okay, great. I guess.
[39:31] >> Oh, it is. It It's an asset.
[39:33] >> Cool.
[39:34] >> It can It can really help you do unusual
[39:36] things.
[39:38] >> Have you ever been able, for example,
[39:39] when you're hurt to kind of control your
[39:43] perception of pain?
[39:46] >> Um,
[39:47] can I when I'm hurt, can I Yeah, I would
[39:50] say I can control my perception of pain.
[39:52] >> Mhm.
[39:53] >> Yeah. I'm I'm generally a pretty
[39:54] non-reactive person.
[39:56] >> Mhm.
[39:56] >> Yeah.
[39:57] >> And so, how do you how do you become
[39:58] non-reactive? What do you do?
[40:01] >> I I don't know. I guess I just don't
[40:03] react to it. I just kind of like look at
[40:04] it as opposed to identify with it.
[40:07] >> Mhm.
[40:08] >> Yeah.
[40:08] >> That's a great dissociative technique.
[40:10] You know, I see it, I observe it, but
[40:13] might not be me, you know, that and that
[40:16] can be a very powerful thing.
[40:17] >> Mhm. We've done studies with smata
[40:19] sensory revoked responses so EEG over
[40:22] the scalp and we'd had some bright stand
[40:25] for students who were very hypnotizable
[40:27] like you and we would give them a shock
[40:31] to the forearm and um ask them if it
[40:34] hurt and they would say yes and we got a
[40:37] normal semataensory evoked response P100
[40:40] P200 P300 really big um and then in
[40:44] another condition we hypnotized them and
[40:46] said your hands in circulating ice water
[40:47] cool tingling and numb filter the her
[40:49] out of the pain and the amplitude of the
[40:52] evoked response the sensory evoked
[40:54] response was half as big and within a
[40:57] tenth of a second the first wave the P
[40:59] 100 disappeared completely so it wasn't
[41:02] like they felt it and then said oh I
[41:05] wonder what that is you know I don't
[41:06] want to pay attention to it they were
[41:08] literally able to modulate how much
[41:10] their brain reacted to the same stimuli
[41:13] >> and that I suspect is what you're good
[41:15] at too that if you you know that you can
[41:17] modulate your brain's reaction to all
[41:21] kinds of experiences.
[41:22] >> Is there a unhealthy version of that
[41:24] disassociative
[41:26] phenomena?
[41:27] >> Sure. Um,
[41:29] >> cuz like I feel like that disassociation
[41:31] almost is used sometimes to
[41:36] point at when something unpleasant
[41:37] happens, usually earlier in childhood,
[41:39] we kind of leave, you know, we check
[41:41] out.
[41:42] >> That's right.
[41:42] >> Um, I guess are those kind of two sides
[41:44] of the same coin then? Well, it's it's
[41:47] adaptive, but it can be problematic.
[41:49] >> Um, at the time it it's a very useful
[41:52] defense. You know,
[41:54] >> most combat soldiers who get
[41:56] congressional medals can barely remember
[41:57] what they did. You know, that got them
[42:00] the medal. You know, they just I I just
[42:01] did. I had to do it. I don't know what,
[42:03] you know. Um so people and people who
[42:06] are being attacked and particularly
[42:08] children when they're people are very
[42:10] hypnotizable
[42:11] will it's it's you know you basically
[42:14] you're saying to an abuser you got my
[42:16] body but you haven't got me and um they
[42:20] detach themselves from it but the
[42:21] problem is that they then sometimes
[42:23] continue doing that um and you know so
[42:27] dissociative identity disorder these
[42:30] people are very hypnotizable and they
[42:33] will literally shift from one mental
[42:34] state to another. They'll have memory b
[42:37] boundaries between um I had one such
[42:41] patient I worked with for many years who
[42:43] had been physically and sexually abused
[42:45] by her father and his friends and um I
[42:50] one of her identities and I I use
[42:53] hypnosis to help get them into and out
[42:55] of um uh different mental states cuz
[42:59] it's controllable. They think it isn't,
[43:01] but you can teach them how to do it to
[43:02] shift from one to another. And one was
[43:05] talking about a kind of scary suicide
[43:07] plan. And I said, "Well, look, you know,
[43:10] um, I'm going to have to talk to the
[43:11] other parts of you because I don't want
[43:13] this to happen. And if I can't do that,
[43:15] you're going in the hospital." And she
[43:17] said, "You can't tell them." And I said,
[43:19] "Oh, really? Why?" And this is
[43:21] particularly sort of tough, nasty,
[43:22] altered personality. She said, "You
[43:24] can't do that." I said, "Why?" She said
[43:27] doctor patient confidentiality.
[43:30] So [laughter]
[43:31] I was going to, you know, reveal
[43:33] information to another one of her
[43:35] identities. [laughter]
[43:36] And we both kind of laughed. I said, I
[43:38] don't think that's going to work. You
[43:39] know,
[43:39] >> some sort of inception.
[43:41] >> Yeah.
[43:41] >> Meta.
[43:43] >> So, um, yes, it it can be defensive and
[43:47] helpful. Um, [snorts] it can keep you
[43:50] sane at a time when you know events
[43:52] would make you crazy, but um, it also
[43:56] can be a problem and sometimes you can
[43:59] lose control over that ability to detach
[44:01] yourself.
[44:02] >> How long was that that we just did?
[44:04] >> Uh, how long do you think it was?
[44:08] >> Honestly, don't have a big reference.
[44:09] Maybe maybe a couple minutes.
[44:11] >> Yeah, it was probably a little more. It
[44:13] was probably like four or five minutes.
[44:14] >> Okay. Yeah.
[44:15] >> Not much. But you're not the fact that
[44:17] you don't have a reference. You were
[44:19] focusing on other things than than
[44:21] counting time basically.
[44:23] >> Yeah.
[44:23] >> Yeah.
[44:23] >> Which is interesting. So like your your
[44:26] awareness of time and space is is
[44:29] altered.
[44:29] >> Yes.
[44:30] >> Do you do you like kind of comes down?
[44:33] >> Yeah. Because you're not you know I mean
[44:35] when do you really think about time
[44:37] passing? You know you think about when
[44:38] you're bored. You know somebody's giving
[44:40] a dumb lecture. You know you have
[44:42] something to do you don't like doing.
[44:43] So, conversely, when you're really
[44:46] immersed in something, um, time, you
[44:49] don't notice, you're not counting, you
[44:51] know, you don't notice the time going by
[44:53] cuz that takes a different kind of
[44:54] consciousness.
[44:57] >> You had, by the way, a very interesting
[44:59] eye roll. Um, you know, my my late
[45:01] father Herbert Spiegel, who it's sort of
[45:04] a genetic illness in my family, got me
[45:06] into this, um, noticed that people who
[45:09] seem to be more hypnotizable were able
[45:11] to do what you did. That is when you
[45:13] looked up your your your irises just
[45:16] disappeared. You were rolling your eyes
[45:18] all the way up to the top of your head
[45:20] and and they converged a bit. So, and
[45:23] that
[45:23] >> Oh, God. [laughter] Watching this back
[45:25] is going to be strange.
[45:26] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, hypnosis will help
[45:29] you manage it though.
[45:30] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um um and he there is a a
[45:34] correlation between the ability to
[45:36] disconnect lowering the lid from
[45:37] lowering the eye from you know keeping
[45:39] the eye up but lowering the lid and
[45:41] hypnotizability. So people who can do
[45:43] that like you tend to be more
[45:45] hypnotizable and so I was guessing from
[45:47] the very beginning that you would be
[45:49] quite hypnotizable and and you are.
[45:51] >> Okay.
[45:53] >> How can I use that to my advantage?
[45:56] [laughter]
[45:56] >> Sure. Good question. Well, you can use
[45:59] it um to manage stress, for example,
[46:01] because stress is often a kind of
[46:05] unpleasant interaction between
[46:08] what you're mentally thinking and
[46:10] feeling and how your body is feeling.
[46:12] And so, what can happen when you start
[46:14] to get stressed, your body tenses up, it
[46:17] tightens up, your muscles tighten, you
[46:19] may start to sweat, you feel physically
[46:22] uncomfortable, and then you notice that
[46:24] and you think, "Oh, this must be really
[46:26] bad." So you're mentally more stressed
[46:28] and it's like a snowball rolling
[46:30] downhill.
[46:31] >> And so what you can do with hypnosis and
[46:34] what we do with the Revery app, for
[46:35] example, is teach people how to start
[46:38] out from the body up rather than the
[46:40] head down. So if you have a problem
[46:42] confronting you, very often in
[46:46] psychiatry and psychology, we sort of
[46:48] try and help people figure it out first
[46:50] and then you'll feel better. What you
[46:52] can do with hypnosis is say get get a
[46:55] grip on your body's reaction to it and
[46:57] you'll be able to think more clearly
[46:58] about it. So I have people look up,
[47:01] close their eyes, take a deep breath,
[47:02] and imagine that you're floating in a
[47:04] bath, a lake, a hot tub, or floating in
[47:06] space. Get good at getting your body
[47:08] comfortable first. And now that your
[47:11] body is feeling better, and there are
[47:13] other techniques we use like breath
[47:14] work, that slow exhale helps to reduce
[47:16] stress as well. Um, and then picture on
[47:20] an imaginary screen first a pleasant
[47:23] scene somewhere to reinforce your
[47:25] physical comfort. Divide the screen in
[47:27] half in hypnosis. And on one side,
[47:29] picture one thing, one thing, not 12,
[47:32] one, that is causing you stress right
[47:34] now
[47:36] while you keep your body comfortable.
[47:37] And on the other side of the screen,
[47:39] picture one thing you can do about it.
[47:41] might not be the best thing or the only
[47:42] thing but picture that. So you can think
[47:45] more clearly about how to handle stress
[47:48] and you do it by uh getting control over
[47:51] the aspect of the stress that you have
[47:53] the most control over which is your own
[47:54] body. So then you can think more clearly
[47:58] because you're not in this sort of cycle
[48:00] of mental and physical stress. So that's
[48:02] one example of how you could do that.
[48:04] You can just get yourself physically
[48:07] comfortable
[48:08] and deal with it mentally better.
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[49:10] >> [snorts]
[49:10] >> Is it I mean it feels very similar to a
[49:13] form of a guided meditation or um like a
[49:18] yoga nidra. Uh
[49:21] is there any like really key difference
[49:23] there? I guess you're giving really
[49:25] specific suggestions. Yeah, I would say
[49:28] I mean there are reasons why there are
[49:30] you know you know mental control um
[49:34] practices around the world. they're
[49:36] they're different but you know
[49:38] mindfulness from the east hypnosis from
[49:42] the west um but I I say the difference
[49:46] is that the emphasis of many of the
[49:48] meditative practices is on being and the
[49:52] emphasis on hypnosis is on doing.
[49:56] So you don't I mean a a good meditator
[49:58] as I understand it and I know something
[50:00] about it but I'm I'm not an expert in it
[50:02] but um is not supposed to be about
[50:05] dealing with anything. It's in fact it's
[50:07] open presence. You know you do a body
[50:10] scan and then you just try to be open to
[50:12] whatever feelings let them flow through
[50:14] you like a storm passing by. Um but not
[50:17] trying to fix anything and you will
[50:19] discover after a while that things may
[50:20] be different. Hypnosis is much more uh
[50:25] purpose- driven and briefer and that is
[50:27] you go into this state to see if you can
[50:30] make a different you know you can handle
[50:32] stress better you can reduce pain uh you
[50:35] can stop smoking you know we have people
[50:38] um uh imagine think of uh your your what
[50:42] you're doing to your body you know for
[50:45] my body smoking is a poison I need my
[50:47] body to live I owe my body respect and
[50:49] protection and one out four people after
[50:52] one of those sessions stop smoking. So,
[50:55] you know, you don't use meditation to
[50:56] stop smoking. You you use it to to be
[50:59] different and just be open presence. And
[51:01] there's real value in that, too. But it
[51:04] there it's hypnosis can be much faster
[51:07] and more purpose- driven than
[51:09] meditation.
[51:13] >> It feels like you're opening up a window
[51:15] into the subconscious in a sense. Is
[51:18] that would you does that resonate? Yes.
[51:21] Yes, it does. I think that's true. Um,
[51:24] there was a famous uh psychiatrist
[51:26] Milton Ericson who uh lived in the
[51:28] middle part of the last century and was
[51:30] one of the few, you know, responsible
[51:32] physicians doing hypnosis then. And he
[51:35] used to say that the problem is you got
[51:37] to silence the conscious mind and let
[51:39] the unconscious solve the problem for
[51:41] you. Um, and he was more indirect in how
[51:45] he did things. You know, he would have
[51:46] someone who was having family conflicts.
[51:49] He would say, "Betty," his wife, you
[51:51] know, "Bring me that beautiful tie you
[51:53] gave me for Christmas." And he would
[51:55] have the guy concentrate on the weaving
[51:57] of the tie and the combination of colors
[51:59] and all that. And he said at the end
[52:01] that he was reminding this young man of
[52:04] the importance of family ties. Well, you
[52:07] know, okay, I I I tend to be much more
[52:09] direct in using it. Um but it is uh um
[52:15] it is in a way allowing what is called
[52:17] the subconscious or the unconscious to
[52:20] emerge. Um and it's just I you know I
[52:24] think of it more in dissociation
[52:27] rather than the sort of psychonamic you
[52:29] know conscious preconcious unconscious.
[52:32] I think of it more all all of those
[52:33] systems are running all the time in our
[52:35] brains. And I'm just saying yeah you
[52:37] know use the parts that will help you
[52:39] solve the problem. And I think if my
[52:42] unconscious could have solved my
[52:44] problem, I would have done it already.
[52:45] But and it's not just that the conscious
[52:47] mind gets in the way. But it is I think
[52:50] that our preconceptions about ourselves,
[52:52] who we are, what we are, why we are what
[52:54] we are, um [snorts] sometimes our
[52:57] obstacles to getting better. And if you
[52:59] can just see it differently. I had a man
[53:01] for example, a lovely big tall guy um
[53:05] who came initially because he had back
[53:08] trouble and he you know he had a disc
[53:11] disease and to help with the pain. Um
[53:14] but he he talked to me about a Christmas
[53:16] they'd had where his father uh who was
[53:19] an alcoholic would throw things at the
[53:21] fireplace and just make it hell. Um and
[53:26] uh he said uh you know next week I'm
[53:28] going to have to go uh clean up his
[53:30] grave. His father had died and um
[53:34] there's a there's a military cemetery on
[53:36] the way to San Francisco and he would go
[53:38] there and spend hours fixing it up. And
[53:40] I said to him, "What the hell are you
[53:42] doing that for? You don't owe that guy a
[53:44] thing. He made your childhood a misery
[53:47] and he's gone now and you've got better
[53:50] things to do with your time." Now,
[53:51] normally psychiatrists don't talk to
[53:53] patients like that, but but I do. And he
[53:56] called me a couple weeks later and he
[53:58] said, you know, doctor, he was very
[54:00] reluctant at first. He said, I should
[54:01] but I should do this. I'm his son, you
[54:03] know. And he called me up and he said,
[54:06] you know, I looked at a picture of
[54:08] myself and for the first time I liked
[54:10] what I saw
[54:12] because he was just feeling
[54:15] um that there must be something wrong
[54:17] with him if his father would do that to
[54:19] him and his family. not that there was
[54:22] something wrong with his father. Um, and
[54:24] so sometimes you can get people to shift
[54:27] their perspective, draw on information
[54:30] that's there in their memory about what
[54:32] happened, but see it from a different
[54:33] point of view.
[54:39] >> Is this similar neurologically to a type
[54:42] of flow state?
[54:45] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I knew Chick sent me high
[54:47] and we talked about flow and I do think
[54:50] that uh you know he calls it an
[54:53] autotellic experience that it's you
[54:55] would just you're not getting you're not
[54:58] doing it for a purpose. It's just it
[54:59] feels good to do it. You keep doing or
[55:01] experiencing it whatever it is just cuz
[55:03] it feels good. And I do think when
[55:05] people get into flow um they're focusing
[55:09] on the process and the pleasure of the
[55:12] experience itself, not the outcome. And
[55:15] I've used hypnosis a lot with with
[55:17] golfers for example who freeze up and
[55:20] you know get all tense and tight and um
[55:24] uh you know Tiger Woods was trained with
[55:26] hypnosis and every shot he takes he does
[55:29] some a little self-hypnosis exercise
[55:31] first and uh there's a book called Zen
[55:34] and the art of archery in which a a
[55:37] British sociologist observed
[55:40] uh that Zen archers who are very good
[55:43] archers would tell you that the problem
[55:46] with most archers is that they focus on
[55:48] the target, not the bow and arrow.
[55:51] And what he means by that is that if
[55:55] your relationship with the bow and arrow
[55:56] is correct, the arrow will go where you
[55:58] want it to go.
[55:59] >> And you're [clears throat] disconnecting
[56:00] yourself from that. So it's process
[56:02] rather than outcome. And that's so
[56:04] they're helping to get into a kind of a
[56:06] flow state um that um I think is uh is
[56:11] translike in some ways that you're just
[56:14] enjoying the experience. I was called by
[56:15] the uh the head of the Stanford women's
[56:18] swimming team, and we have a really good
[56:20] swimming team, and a lot of them are in
[56:21] the Olympics all the time, but but the
[56:24] coach said, "You know what, the girls
[56:26] are telling me that they're swimming
[56:28] faster in practice than they are in
[56:30] meets." And you think, well, what the
[56:32] hell is that about, you know? And I So,
[56:35] I met with them and they said, "Well,
[56:37] what what's happening is that in a meet
[56:40] I'm focusing on the women swimming on in
[56:43] the lanes next to me." and I get
[56:45] distracted. So, they got disconnected
[56:47] from their bodies. So, I said, "That's
[56:49] your problem. What you're going to do
[56:50] every night is do some self- hypnosis
[56:52] and you're going to do an imaginary race
[56:56] only. You're only going to pay attention
[56:57] to your body and to help with, you know,
[56:59] it's not a contact sport. It doesn't
[57:00] really matter what they do. What matters
[57:02] is what you do." And their their
[57:04] swimming got faster in meats. Um so it's
[57:07] a matter of allowing yourself um to uh
[57:12] uh focus on what matters and to enjoy
[57:15] that experience.
[57:19] Yeah, that that uh certainly tracks in
[57:22] my experience where in particular things
[57:25] that I do, I drop more into flow where
[57:28] wherever there's more unconscious
[57:30] competence, for example, playing piano
[57:31] or something where it's like there's a
[57:33] lack of selfawareness in a sense. Um
[57:38] there's something so pleasurable also
[57:41] about being in that state similar to I
[57:43] think the state of hypnosis where like
[57:46] awareness is still there but there's
[57:48] like a lack of a sense of a doer in it.
[57:50] Um
[57:52] >> yeah or well there's a doer but not a
[57:54] judger you know it's it's kind of more
[57:56] you're just having the experience.
[57:59] >> Well to me it felt like a lack of sense
[58:00] of like a like authorship and doing you
[58:03] know like um
[58:04] >> I see what you mean.
[58:05] >> Yeah.
[58:07] I'm doing it. I'm not sort of aware of
[58:09] planning and evaluating how I do it.
[58:11] >> Right.
[58:12] >> Yeah.
[58:12] >> Yeah. Which is
[58:15] >> which is fascinating. Um why do you say
[58:18] believing is seeing
[58:24] well
[58:26] um you know seeing is believing is a
[58:29] kind of evaluative statement where you
[58:31] say I won't swallow this unless I see
[58:34] it. But if you're doing what we were
[58:37] just talking about, if you're just um
[58:40] believing for example that you can in
[58:43] fact control how your brain processes
[58:45] pain signals, then you will discover
[58:48] that you actually can feel less pain. Um
[58:51] and so it's
[58:54] uh valuing the
[58:57] prim primacy of the experience itself
[59:00] and how you can alter the experience
[59:02] rather than evaluating it uh and then
[59:06] deciding what's really going on.
[59:08] >> You did this with the study with the
[59:10] colors. Is that right? The gray scale.
[59:12] >> That's right. You heard some of our
[59:14] work.
[59:15] >> Yeah. Could you recapitulate that for
[59:16] us?
[59:16] >> Yeah, sure. So I was working with a
[59:18] psychologist who um he was interested. I
[59:22] was we were part of a mindbody network
[59:25] uh um that the MacArthur Foundation had
[59:28] and he he said you know um I you you say
[59:31] that people can change what they're
[59:33] seeing and all that but um I'm wondering
[59:36] if if that's really what's going on or
[59:38] they're just telling you that it seems
[59:40] different if when it doesn't. So um we I
[59:44] said well let's design an experiment
[59:45] that you can run and decide for yourself
[59:48] what happened. So we did pet imaging on
[59:51] people who were um looking at black and
[59:55] white and color grids. So there were
[59:57] grids they were like a mandrean painting
[59:59] with you know squares of different
[1:00:01] shapes and sizes. Some were color, some
[1:00:03] were just black and white. And um we
[1:00:06] would show them the color grids and they
[1:00:09] would get a lot of activity in the
[1:00:11] lingual gyrus and the left side of the
[1:00:13] occipital lobe which does visual
[1:00:15] processing. And if they were it was
[1:00:17] black and white, they had less activity
[1:00:19] in in the same region. So we had a
[1:00:22] baseline of what happens when the
[1:00:24] brain's looking at black and white or
[1:00:25] looking at color. And then we hypnotized
[1:00:28] them and said, "We want you to drain the
[1:00:31] color out of the color grid." And they
[1:00:33] would look at it and they would say,
[1:00:34] "Yeah, it doesn't look so colorful now."
[1:00:37] And then in another condition, we'd had
[1:00:39] them add color to a black and white
[1:00:40] grid. And we found that when they did
[1:00:44] that, they reduced activity in those
[1:00:46] same color processing regions when they
[1:00:48] drained the color. And they were looking
[1:00:49] at the same color grid, but they're
[1:00:51] seeing it as black and white. And when
[1:00:53] they looked at the black and white grid
[1:00:54] and saw it as color, they increased
[1:00:56] activity in the processing region. So
[1:00:58] that's the believing and seeing idea
[1:01:00] that
[1:01:01] >> you believe that's what you're seeing
[1:01:02] and that's what you see.
[1:01:06] >> It makes me think a bit of Andy Clark's
[1:01:08] work some others as well as like perman
[1:01:11] exploring perception as like a
[1:01:13] generative phenomena, not as a simply
[1:01:16] uh receptive one. Like we think we're
[1:01:18] just taking in the world as it is as
[1:01:20] opposed to constructing it. Right.
[1:01:22] Right. You know, I mean, think about it,
[1:01:24] you know, and it's with pain too. The
[1:01:27] brain is this three lb organ encased in
[1:01:30] a bony box, right? And it's getting all
[1:01:32] this information from, you know, neurons
[1:01:35] that, you know, sensors that provide
[1:01:38] information to it. But the brain isn't
[1:01:39] touching anything, you know, and it
[1:01:41] isn't seeing anything. It's receiving
[1:01:44] electrical signals that get transmitted
[1:01:47] to the brain and the brain has to decide
[1:01:49] what to make of it. And so it has a good
[1:01:53] deal of control over what you know what
[1:01:57] it does with the information it gets.
[1:01:59] And and so it makes sense actually that
[1:02:02] believing is seeing that that the brain
[1:02:05] has to and and sensing is you know uh
[1:02:09] the sensory experiences also are things
[1:02:11] that um the brain interprets
[1:02:15] and generally it interprets in ways that
[1:02:16] keep us alive and if you know we see a
[1:02:19] saber-tooth tiger over there we know
[1:02:20] what to do. I mean it's not random but
[1:02:23] at the same time it's an interpretive
[1:02:26] kind of processing that's going on and
[1:02:28] there's no reason you know we frankly we
[1:02:31] don't know I'm sitting here looking at
[1:02:32] you you're looking at me I know what you
[1:02:35] look like and you know what I look like
[1:02:37] but do you know whether what you look
[1:02:39] like if you were me is actually anything
[1:02:42] like what you think you look like you
[1:02:44] know
[1:02:46] >> no because also the way that mirrors
[1:02:49] work and and the way that We like flip
[1:02:52] images and anybody who's [laughter]
[1:02:55] taken their phone where they like put it
[1:02:56] in selfie mode and you can like flip the
[1:02:58] image,
[1:02:59] >> you know, and you see the asymmetry of
[1:03:00] your face and one side, you know, it's
[1:03:02] like we it's interesting to see to think
[1:03:05] about what other people see us as as
[1:03:06] opposed to what we see in the mirror and
[1:03:08] think we look like.
[1:03:09] >> That's exactly right.
[1:03:10] >> And uh and Neil Sat who we just had on
[1:03:12] the podcast, he kind of explains this
[1:03:14] phenomena as a controlled hallucination,
[1:03:18] >> you know, that's happening in
[1:03:19] >> That's not bad. That's not a bad
[1:03:20] description. That's right. I I think
[1:03:23] that's really true. There's so much
[1:03:25] interpretation, you know, and and
[1:03:27] manipulation that goes on to process
[1:03:30] things. That's right.
[1:03:33] In this process, as you've worked with a
[1:03:35] wide spectrum of patients and emotions
[1:03:38] within those patients, what have you
[1:03:40] learned about what emotions are signals
[1:03:43] for and what they're trying to tell us?
[1:03:48] >> And and and what what it takes to
[1:03:50] integrate and heal them.
[1:03:52] >> Um well, you know, emotions are I mean,
[1:03:56] there's a wide variety of things. They
[1:03:57] they clearly drive our behavior. you
[1:03:59] know, they get us to do certain things
[1:04:01] and avoid other things. They remind us
[1:04:04] of unpleasant consequences of doing bad
[1:04:06] things and pleasant consequences of
[1:04:08] doing others. Uh, and that's also
[1:04:12] something where techniques like hypn you
[1:04:14] can change people's moods. You know, you
[1:04:15] can help them either feel really good if
[1:04:18] they think about something pleasant or
[1:04:20] really bad if they think about something
[1:04:22] unpleasant. And to the extent that you
[1:04:25] focus, you know, the light of your
[1:04:27] attention on something that is either
[1:04:30] positive or negative, you know, you will
[1:04:33] feel differently. And I think because
[1:04:35] hypnosis, you know, with hypnosis, it's
[1:04:38] like a flashlight in a cave. You know,
[1:04:40] you you see certain things and they'll
[1:04:44] make you feel comfortable or
[1:04:45] uncomfortable or happy or sad. And
[1:04:47] what's different is that now, you know,
[1:04:50] we're doing sort of back and forth
[1:04:51] processing where we're looking at one
[1:04:53] another, but there's an environment
[1:04:54] we're in. It's a nice environment. You
[1:04:56] can look around the room and you're
[1:04:58] selecting what to attend to. And um if
[1:05:02] you're interested in what I'm saying,
[1:05:03] you're not falling asleep. You're, you
[1:05:05] know, paying attention, thinking of the
[1:05:06] next question. If you're not, you know,
[1:05:09] you might. Um, so I think where hypnosis
[1:05:12] comes in is that it helps you to sort of
[1:05:15] parcelate your perception to decide what
[1:05:18] you're going to attend to and what
[1:05:19] you're what you're going to ignore. An
[1:05:22] example, Rory Mroy, you know, was, you
[1:05:26] know, on the verge of winning the
[1:05:27] Masters like seven times, but he had had
[1:05:30] one famous screw up where um on the 11th
[1:05:35] hole or something, he he hit the ball,
[1:05:37] wound up in a tree. I mean, it was
[1:05:38] embarrassing, you know, and for 7 years
[1:05:42] after that, every time he got to that
[1:05:44] hole, he'd screw it up again, you know.
[1:05:46] And so, he started, he actually started
[1:05:48] with our app, the Revery app, and and
[1:05:50] then he uh got a a personal psychologist
[1:05:53] to work with him. And when he got to the
[1:05:56] seventh hole the next year for the 11th
[1:05:58] hole, whatever it was, um he learned to
[1:06:01] focus on other things, on his
[1:06:03] relationship with the club and the
[1:06:04] swing. And this was just another hole.
[1:06:06] thought what mattered was the way he
[1:06:08] connected with the ball and he he went
[1:06:11] right he blew right through it and he
[1:06:13] won the Masters and he's won it now two
[1:06:15] years in a row. And so he changed, you
[1:06:18] know, it's changing the emotion, you
[1:06:19] know, from um oh god, here's another
[1:06:23] time for me to screw up my entire career
[1:06:25] and make a fool of myself to I can go
[1:06:28] through this. I can experience it
[1:06:30] differently. And so what hypnosis helped
[1:06:31] him to do is pay attention to what he
[1:06:35] needed to and wanted to rather than just
[1:06:38] running that old tape of what a fool
[1:06:39] he'd made of himself and it worked.
[1:06:42] >> Yeah. It makes me think what our version
[1:06:44] of that hole is, you know, in our own
[1:06:46] life. What uh
[1:06:47] >> Yes.
[1:06:48] >> What are we placing emotional
[1:06:50] significance around that for another
[1:06:52] person would just be another day in the
[1:06:54] park, you know, another day on the
[1:06:55] course,
[1:06:56] >> right?
[1:06:58] >> Exactly. And and so much of your work is
[1:07:00] helping reconstruct these past traumatic
[1:07:02] memories and experiences and reframing
[1:07:04] them in a powerful way.
[1:07:05] >> Yes. Yes. That's right. Well, I had a a
[1:07:09] woman who could join an experiment of
[1:07:10] ours. We were studying whether hypnosis
[1:07:12] could help people stop smoking. And you
[1:07:14] know, most people have a lot of trouble
[1:07:16] doing that, but you know, they tell
[1:07:18] themselves don't smoke or they see
[1:07:20] pictures of damaged lungs or something
[1:07:22] and uh it's so unpleasant that they
[1:07:25] don't want to pay much attention to it,
[1:07:26] you know, so they smoke. So we say for
[1:07:30] my body, smoking is a poison. I need my
[1:07:32] body to live. I owe my body respect and
[1:07:34] protection. And one subject in the study
[1:07:37] um was a mental health professional,
[1:07:40] intelligent woman, um she the first time
[1:07:44] she heard that she didn't like it, but
[1:07:45] she went home and she said, "You know, I
[1:07:48] looked at a cigarette in my hand. I lit
[1:07:50] looked at it. I said, "F who needs
[1:07:52] this?" And she put it, she said, "I put
[1:07:54] it out. I haven't smoked a cigarette
[1:07:56] since." I didn't want to stop. I smoked
[1:07:59] 25 years. and she said, "This is some
[1:08:02] kind of crazy ass voodoo shit." And I
[1:08:05] mean that in a good way. She said she's
[1:08:07] helping her friend stop smoking now. So,
[1:08:10] you know, the ability to narrow your
[1:08:13] focus into a different perspective and
[1:08:16] gives you more control over your
[1:08:18] emotion, over your experience because
[1:08:20] you're choosing which part of the vast
[1:08:22] array of choices you're going to attend
[1:08:24] to.
[1:08:26] >> Yeah. Interesting enough, my my pops
[1:08:28] when I was younger had a health clinic
[1:08:30] and he'd help people quit addiction and
[1:08:32] he'd use hypnosis for as a tool.
[1:08:34] >> Oh, cool.
[1:08:35] >> Um, so it's it's it's funny enough, you
[1:08:38] know, I have very light exposure to it.
[1:08:41] Um, but have seen the efficacy of it um,
[1:08:46] loosely over time.
[1:08:47] >> How did what did how what was his work?
[1:08:50] What was his profession? I mean,
[1:08:51] >> yeah. Yeah. you have a health clinic
[1:08:53] mainly helping people lose weight or
[1:08:55] quit smoking like is a couple main
[1:08:57] things
[1:08:58] >> and um
[1:09:00] >> well we have that in common that is sort
[1:09:01] of a genetic illness in both of our
[1:09:04] [laughter]
[1:09:05] I mean my father was you know he went he
[1:09:08] went went fought in North Africa in
[1:09:10] World War II and he was being analyzed
[1:09:13] um and the analyst finally said
[1:09:15] something at the end of the session he
[1:09:17] said do you want to learn something
[1:09:18] about hypnosis and my father thought the
[1:09:21] analyst actually said something, you
[1:09:22] know, what did I say wrong or something?
[1:09:25] And he said there was a guy named Gustaf
[1:09:27] Schauffenberg
[1:09:29] um who um was a vianese physician, a Jew
[1:09:33] who had been barely escaped uh from the
[1:09:37] Nazis. And he was a forensic
[1:09:40] psychiatrist and he had a smallox scar
[1:09:43] in the middle of his forehead. And he
[1:09:45] noticed that some of these prisoners he
[1:09:46] was interviewing would start staring at
[1:09:49] that scar and do what you did. you know,
[1:09:51] they just sort of nod off and go into a
[1:09:53] hypnotic state. And so he started using
[1:09:55] hypnosis. And he wasn't allowed to serve
[1:09:57] in the military here, but he said, I'm
[1:09:59] going to train army doctors to use it.
[1:10:00] So he trained my father to do it, and he
[1:10:03] used it for pain control and
[1:10:05] post-traumatic stress symptoms. He came
[1:10:08] back and went back to being an analyst.
[1:10:10] Um but uh he had a wonderful supervisor
[1:10:14] Freda from Reichman um who said he he
[1:10:18] was going to stop doing it because
[1:10:19] another analyst said Freud stopped using
[1:10:21] hypnosis. Why should you do it? You can
[1:10:23] you know and she said what are you so
[1:10:26] precious about your reputation for?
[1:10:28] You're going to teach a course in our
[1:10:30] institute and I know you're going to do
[1:10:31] it because I'm going to take it. And so
[1:10:34] he continued doing hypnosis and
[1:10:36] increasingly he would get in touch with
[1:10:38] patients and ask how they were doing and
[1:10:40] most of his analytic patients would say,
[1:10:42] "Well, you know, are you having trouble
[1:10:44] finding patients? I'll talk to a few of
[1:10:45] my friends kind of thing. But with
[1:10:47] hypnosis, they'd stop smoking. You know,
[1:10:50] their anxiety disorder symptoms got
[1:10:53] better and stuff." So he shifted more
[1:10:55] and more. So the dinner table
[1:10:57] conversations were interesting and I got
[1:10:59] to watch him film film him treating
[1:11:02] people who had uh hysterical pseudo
[1:11:05] seizures and you know they'd bring on
[1:11:07] the seizure and gradually diminish it
[1:11:09] and do better. And so when I got to
[1:11:12] medical school, I took a hypnosis
[1:11:14] course. And my first patient ever um
[1:11:19] that for whom I used hypnosis was a
[1:11:21] 16-year-old girl uh who had status as
[1:11:25] was in status asthmaticus. She's chronic
[1:11:27] asthma attacks and they were thinking of
[1:11:30] they couldn't stop it. They given her
[1:11:33] steroids. It wasn't working. They were
[1:11:34] going to put her on more steroids. Um
[1:11:36] and um uh they were going to give her
[1:11:39] general anesthesia to stop it. And uh it
[1:11:42] was the third time in 3 months she had
[1:11:44] been hospitalized. It was bad situation.
[1:11:46] I hear the sound of the wheezing down
[1:11:47] the hall. The nurse says, "Your patient
[1:11:49] is in there." And I didn't know what the
[1:11:51] hell else to do. She's standing there.
[1:11:52] Her mother's standing there crying.
[1:11:54] She's in bed bolt upright, knuckles
[1:11:56] white. And I just uh had taken this
[1:11:59] course. So I said, "You want to try a
[1:12:00] breathing exercise?" She nods. So I get
[1:12:03] her hypnotized. And then I realized we
[1:12:06] hadn't studied asthma in the course. I
[1:12:07] didn't know what to say. So I said,
[1:12:09] "Each breath you take will be a little
[1:12:11] deeper and a little easier." And within
[1:12:14] 5 minutes, she's lying back in bed and
[1:12:15] she isn't wheezing anymore. And the
[1:12:18] mother stopped crying. Nurse ran out of
[1:12:20] the room. My intern came looking for me.
[1:12:23] And I thought he was going to say, "Wow,
[1:12:25] good for you, Spiegel." He said, "Um,
[1:12:27] you need to understand that the nurse
[1:12:29] has filed a complaint with the nursing
[1:12:31] supervisor that you violated
[1:12:32] Massachusetts law by hypnotizing a minor
[1:12:35] without parental consent." Now,
[1:12:37] Massachusetts has a lot of weird laws,
[1:12:39] but that's not one of them. And I her
[1:12:42] mother was standing next to me when I
[1:12:43] did it. So, he said, "You're going to
[1:12:45] have to stop." And I said, "Well, take
[1:12:46] me off the case if you want, but as long
[1:12:49] as she's my patient, I'm not going to
[1:12:51] tell her something I know isn't true."
[1:12:53] So he stomped off and but you know it's
[1:12:56] interesting with all the damage that we
[1:12:58] do to patients with all the drugs and
[1:13:00] all kinds of other things you know just
[1:13:02] the idea that my talking to her that way
[1:13:04] and she immediately responds is going to
[1:13:07] harm her was just ridiculous. So he came
[1:13:09] back on Monday after a council with the
[1:13:12] chief resident and the attending and uh
[1:13:16] they came up with a radical idea. They
[1:13:17] said let's ask the patient and I you
[1:13:20] know I thought that was a great idea.
[1:13:21] you know, I don't think they'd ever done
[1:13:22] that before at Children's Hospital, but
[1:13:24] they didn't. She said, "Oh, I like this.
[1:13:25] I want to keep doing it." And she had
[1:13:28] one subsequent hospitalization, but went
[1:13:29] on to study to be a respiratory
[1:13:31] therapist. And this is one of those
[1:13:33] situations where that changed me because
[1:13:36] right in front of my eyes, you know, in
[1:13:38] a couple of minutes, I could see her
[1:13:40] getting better. And I just thought, you
[1:13:42] know, I got to I got to do more of this
[1:13:44] because it's helping people to help
[1:13:46] themselves.
[1:13:48] Do you feel like this path chose you in
[1:13:50] a way? Sounds like your mom was also a
[1:13:53] psychiatrist, right?
[1:13:55] >> Your dad was into this work and
[1:13:57] >> Yeah.
[1:13:58] >> Yeah. I was My parents told me I was
[1:14:00] free to be any kind of psychiatrist I
[1:14:02] wanted. [laughter]
[1:14:04] And I I'll I used to tell that story
[1:14:08] around the family and my son two we have
[1:14:10] two wonderful children. My son's an
[1:14:12] architect who would love your house. And
[1:14:14] he's built us a house that is similar to
[1:14:17] this in these huge windows where he
[1:14:19] brings the outside in, you know, and so
[1:14:20] you feel outdoors even though you're
[1:14:22] you're indoors. And he said, "Well, you
[1:14:25] know, my mother's a cell biologist, so I
[1:14:28] had a little more leeway than my father
[1:14:30] did, you know." So he said, "Um, you
[1:14:33] know, spaces give you feelings just like
[1:14:35] this room gives you feelings." He said,
[1:14:37] "Uh, I want to be a doctor of spaces."
[1:14:40] and he's a wonderful architect now and
[1:14:43] and you know so he he absorbed it in a
[1:14:46] good way and uh so um and our daughter
[1:14:50] is an attorney who's helping make the
[1:14:52] world better and safer. She's uh started
[1:14:55] a group called Gov Act uh which is
[1:14:58] governors getting together to help with
[1:15:01] reproductive rights and protect our
[1:15:04] rights. So, um, you know, I I like to
[1:15:07] think that although neither of them
[1:15:09] wanted to be a doctor, they they got the
[1:15:12] sort of helping bug and that's what
[1:15:14] they're doing in their way. But I I you
[1:15:17] know, I have a neurosych a
[1:15:19] neurossychiatrist now who works in my
[1:15:20] lab and he said, you know, when I use
[1:15:23] hypnosis, I know what surgeons feel
[1:15:26] like. you know, you feel like you just
[1:15:27] go in and you fix something, you know,
[1:15:29] and in psychiatry and psychology, we
[1:15:32] tend to, you know, it's more gradual and
[1:15:34] subtle. But with hypnosis, sometimes you
[1:15:38] feel a bit like a surgeon. I went in and
[1:15:40] fixed that, you know, helped them be
[1:15:42] different and [snorts and clears throat]
[1:15:43] and that's a wonderful feeling.
[1:15:49] >> You you mentioned multiple personality
[1:15:51] or disassociative identity disorder
[1:15:53] earlier,
[1:15:54] >> right?
[1:15:56] I've always found it very [snorts]
[1:15:58] fascinating how one human being can have
[1:16:01] these various
[1:16:03] up to over 10 20 personalities. One's
[1:16:07] allergic to peanuts, the other one is
[1:16:09] left-handed, you know, and it's like
[1:16:12] when they're inhabiting these
[1:16:13] perspectives and personalities, they
[1:16:15] have these allergies and these very real
[1:16:18] chemical reactions to things. Mh.
[1:16:22] >> And um
[1:16:24] >> yeah, for some for some reason we lose
[1:16:26] that analogy when it's just one
[1:16:27] personality that we say we have.
[1:16:30] >> And u but of course we have our own
[1:16:32] stuff. My sister, [snorts] she's
[1:16:33] allergic to nuts, you know.
[1:16:35] >> Um we all have our own like things. Mhm.
[1:16:39] >> And when you look at disassociative
[1:16:42] identity and multiple personality and
[1:16:45] you bring that analogy back and you that
[1:16:47] understanding back to one personality,
[1:16:51] it uh it makes me question how
[1:16:54] personality is in it in in in of itself
[1:16:56] a sort of hypnotic rhythm. Um I'm
[1:16:59] curious your thoughts there.
[1:17:01] >> Well, I think it is in the sense that um
[1:17:06] personality is an identity. You know, we
[1:17:08] talked about the uh default mode network
[1:17:11] and how it's one way we think about
[1:17:14] ourselves and you've had people here who
[1:17:17] talk about the the problem of, you know,
[1:17:19] getting lost in a self and and um that
[1:17:23] you need to kind of shed some of that
[1:17:25] sense of that is really who you are
[1:17:26] because it isn't. It's just a convenient
[1:17:29] assumption. I think what hypnosis allows
[1:17:32] you to do is on the one hand create but
[1:17:35] on the other hand manage dissociation so
[1:17:39] you can see how you can be a different
[1:17:40] person and you know we all are you know
[1:17:43] we're different on a vacation than we
[1:17:45] are when we're at work and that's one
[1:17:46] reason we go on vacations to try out
[1:17:48] being different but you don't have to go
[1:17:50] on a vacation to do that. Hypnosis helps
[1:17:53] people
[1:17:55] better understand and control these
[1:17:57] different roles that we play and try out
[1:18:00] being different. See if you know you can
[1:18:02] really be different. Now in dissociative
[1:18:05] identity disorder people you know have
[1:18:07] been kind of driven into it by sexual
[1:18:10] and physical abuse usually not always
[1:18:12] but usually. Um and what you try to do I
[1:18:16] use hypnosis to teach them how to
[1:18:18] control that. um and uh to not
[1:18:23] necessarily assume that this the switch
[1:18:25] is just going to happen. And there tend
[1:18:28] to be like a hierarchy of identities
[1:18:30] where some are more angry and
[1:18:31] controlling and others are more passive
[1:18:33] and pathetic kind of thing. And but you
[1:18:35] you teach them gradually that they can
[1:18:37] learn how to control uh these different
[1:18:40] uh identities. I I had uh one patient
[1:18:44] who a teenage boy who um suddenly would
[1:18:48] act say he was a werewolf. He'd sit down
[1:18:50] at dinner and start eating food from a
[1:18:53] plate just, you know, and the family was
[1:18:55] kind of freaked out by this and didn't
[1:18:57] know what to do. And um I found out that
[1:19:01] what was happening was he was like 14 or
[1:19:04] 15 at the time. And his older sister was
[1:19:07] sneaking, they shared a bedroom and she
[1:19:09] was sneaking her boyfriend into the
[1:19:10] bedroom and playing around with the
[1:19:12] boyfriend. And so this kid didn't know
[1:19:14] what to do with that and got
[1:19:16] symptomatic. So I could show that he
[1:19:19] could shift with hypnosis from one of
[1:19:21] these states to the other and teach him
[1:19:23] how to control it. And I said to the
[1:19:26] family, you know, don't freak out and
[1:19:28] don't buy it that he's really a werewolf
[1:19:30] cuz he isn't. He's just So the next time
[1:19:32] he did that at dinner and his his mother
[1:19:36] said to him, I don't care who you are.
[1:19:39] Sit down and eat your dinner like anyone
[1:19:41] else, you know, and she just not playing
[1:19:43] into it. and it was a way of teaching
[1:19:45] him how to how to control it. So
[1:19:48] hypnosis can be very helpful in being
[1:19:51] part of what is a control mechanism but
[1:19:54] one that you can learn to control
[1:19:55] basically.
[1:19:59] >> If if there's not and and share your
[1:20:03] thoughts if if you don't think so but if
[1:20:05] there's not a single solid enduring self
[1:20:08] then who are we?
[1:20:12] Well,
[1:20:13] I think [snorts] selfhood is a kind of a
[1:20:16] construct.
[1:20:18] Um,
[1:20:20] some of what we take for granted as, you
[1:20:23] know, objective reality, you know,
[1:20:25] probably isn't. It's an assumption that
[1:20:27] we assemble from our brains in this box
[1:20:30] trying to make sense of the world. Um,
[1:20:34] but I think
[1:20:37] the notion of itself is at the least a
[1:20:40] way that we make sense of what we do and
[1:20:42] who we are. And it's never perfect and
[1:20:44] it should change and we shouldn't get
[1:20:46] too stuck in it. And I think that's
[1:20:48] where hypnosis can help actually because
[1:20:50] you can really see what it would be like
[1:20:52] to be different if I weren't so scared
[1:20:54] every time I ran into something that
[1:20:56] reminds me of what happened 12 years ago
[1:20:59] or something like that. if uh I let go
[1:21:02] of the assumption that people like me
[1:21:05] can't do certain things that other
[1:21:07] people seem to be able to do or that I
[1:21:09] came from the wrong side of the tracks
[1:21:11] and and that will limit me forever kind
[1:21:14] of thing that you can see what it would
[1:21:17] feel like if that wasn't your working
[1:21:20] assumption. So I think you know is the
[1:21:24] self a kind of a construct? Sure it is.
[1:21:28] But I it's a malleable construct and
[1:21:30] it's one that I think we have more
[1:21:32] control over than we give ourselves
[1:21:34] credit for. And hypnosis can just be a
[1:21:38] visible case example. You know, you
[1:21:40] wouldn't have thought that your left arm
[1:21:42] could really want to go up regardless of
[1:21:44] what you thought it ought to be doing.
[1:21:46] And so you were seeing that you have
[1:21:48] control systems between your brain and
[1:21:50] your body that maybe you hadn't
[1:21:52] consciously used before. And so it
[1:21:54] allows you to kind of on the one hand it
[1:21:57] kind of diminishes the notion of the
[1:22:00] self, but on the other hand it allows
[1:22:03] you to expand the idea of how it's a
[1:22:06] it's a work in process always. And and
[1:22:09] we make assumptions to sort of simplify
[1:22:11] things for ourselves. But you know the
[1:22:14] self is a very complex ongoing process.
[1:22:18] >> Mhm. [clears throat]
[1:22:20] How much time have you thought about how
[1:22:22] of course we have our own individual
[1:22:24] transes that we're in through our
[1:22:26] personality
[1:22:27] >> a useful assumption I think you used the
[1:22:29] verbiage of you know convenient one
[1:22:32] >> um
[1:22:34] >> when you extrapolate that to a societal
[1:22:38] level and you see the transes that we
[1:22:41] are in collectively [clears throat]
[1:22:44] >> um do you not feel that there are many
[1:22:46] things we are in a sort of group
[1:22:48] hypnosis of Yeah, I think so. I think
[1:22:55] you know what what's going on right now
[1:22:56] in our country is is heartbreaking and
[1:23:00] people are falling for things that that
[1:23:03] they shouldn't. Um, and you know,
[1:23:05] there's the sort of Jim Jones
[1:23:08] phenomenon of people in in cults. There
[1:23:10] there's a uh Leon Fessinger was a
[1:23:13] brilliant Stanford psychologist who
[1:23:14] wrote a book called the theory of
[1:23:16] cognitive dissonance and it was uh a um
[1:23:21] a book about a study that his lab
[1:23:24] conducted in which one of the grad
[1:23:26] students infiltrated an end of the world
[1:23:28] cult. And these people believe that on a
[1:23:31] certain day God was going to destroy the
[1:23:34] earth but send down a spaceship and take
[1:23:36] them away and rescue them. And a bunch
[1:23:38] of them believed it and they sold their
[1:23:40] farms and everything and showed up that
[1:23:42] night and fortunately the the world
[1:23:44] didn't end. And so in the middle of the
[1:23:47] night and this grad student is recording
[1:23:48] all this, you know, watch what happened.
[1:23:50] He does automatic writing and he gets a
[1:23:53] message from God that God is so pleased
[1:23:55] with what he's done that he's decided
[1:23:57] not to destroy the earth after all. So
[1:24:01] the change in behavior was very
[1:24:02] interesting. And these are people who
[1:24:04] had lost a lot. I mean, they'd sort of
[1:24:05] given up everything to come do this.
[1:24:08] They went from being a sort of secretive
[1:24:10] we we know what's going on and you don't
[1:24:12] to going around convincing other people
[1:24:14] that they were right. And he called that
[1:24:17] cognitive dissonance. That, you know,
[1:24:19] when reality when the facts conflict
[1:24:21] with your beliefs, you can do one of two
[1:24:23] things. You can change your beliefs.
[1:24:24] That's what we call the scientific
[1:24:26] method. Um or you can go around
[1:24:28] convincing other people that your
[1:24:30] beliefs are correct when they're
[1:24:31] obviously wrong. Now, you know, these
[1:24:34] days that's not an uncommon experience
[1:24:36] and a lot of true scientific beliefs are
[1:24:38] being dissed and you know, people are
[1:24:40] not getting vaccinated. All kinds of
[1:24:42] terrible things are happening. People
[1:24:43] are dying because of this. But one way
[1:24:47] that we shape ourselves is to gather a
[1:24:51] crowd with us who have the same beliefs
[1:24:53] whether it happens to be correct or not.
[1:24:56] And and um so I think hypnosis is sort
[1:25:00] of an object lesson that you can change
[1:25:03] what seems real and true for a while,
[1:25:05] but you can control it and you can use
[1:25:07] it in sensible, productive,
[1:25:09] you know, proactive, healthy ways, or
[1:25:13] you can come to believe things that
[1:25:15] aren't true. You know, I mean, I was
[1:25:17] doing that in that vision experiment.
[1:25:19] you know, I was getting people to report
[1:25:22] that a grid that was black and white
[1:25:24] actually was colorful and conversely.
[1:25:27] So, we were demonstrating that people
[1:25:30] can use their capacity to manage their
[1:25:32] perception and experience in a way that
[1:25:36] can either be constructive and help them
[1:25:38] live better and get a different
[1:25:40] perspective on who they are and what
[1:25:42] they are, or it it could be damaging.
[1:25:45] they they can see and do things that
[1:25:47] don't make any sense, but if they get
[1:25:49] enough people who agree with them,
[1:25:51] doesn't bother them. So, you know, one
[1:25:54] of the reasons that we built Rey um is
[1:25:59] to help share that knowledge of how to
[1:26:02] do this and to help people on the one
[1:26:04] hand see that they can change their
[1:26:06] personal reality. they can stop smoking
[1:26:09] or you know uh um you know control their
[1:26:13] chronic pain and get off of opioids. Um
[1:26:16] they can eat better and lose weight.
[1:26:18] They can stop smoking. They can do a lot
[1:26:20] of things that you can use that ability
[1:26:23] if you're in charge of it and using it
[1:26:25] for the right reasons. But there are
[1:26:27] some people who use that ability to
[1:26:29] distort their perception of reality and
[1:26:31] ignore things that are damaging to
[1:26:33] themselves or to others. It's a capacity
[1:26:36] we have that we can identify and use it.
[1:26:39] And here you're somebody who has studied
[1:26:41] the self and how it feels and whose
[1:26:43] father taught you some hypnosis, who
[1:26:46] discovered something about yourself and
[1:26:47] your ability now and how hypnotizable
[1:26:49] you are and that that's a great thing
[1:26:52] and we want more and more people to have
[1:26:54] the ability to do it.
[1:26:56] >> Fantastic. We'll uh we'll leave links
[1:26:58] where people can find that and your work
[1:27:01] in the description. You have 13 books.
[1:27:04] You've seen over 7,000 patients. It's
[1:27:07] been 50 years in this work now. What's
[1:27:10] one truth if you had 60 seconds to share
[1:27:13] that you're more sure about being a
[1:27:15] human being now than when you started?
[1:27:20] Um
[1:27:22] I would say that um the more we learn
[1:27:27] how we process and change things, the
[1:27:30] better we can live. That that uh rather
[1:27:34] than being afraid of things that seem
[1:27:37] strange or too powerful or something, if
[1:27:40] we take hold of it and um drive the car
[1:27:45] better, our lives will be better. that
[1:27:48] recognize, you know, be proud of the
[1:27:50] fact that you can modulate perception
[1:27:52] and manage your emotion and restructure
[1:27:55] your memories of the past and think
[1:27:57] carefully about how to live and get into
[1:27:59] a flow state when you're trying to do
[1:28:01] things. Um, that's a tremendous ability
[1:28:04] and power that we have and we tend to
[1:28:06] hand that off. We tend to say, well, if
[1:28:08] I get the right drug, it'll be all
[1:28:09] right. Now, I use medications. I'm a
[1:28:11] doctor. But but there are a lot of times
[1:28:13] when that's not the answer and people
[1:28:15] feel disempowered by saying I can't
[1:28:18] handle this anxiety if I don't have this
[1:28:20] drug that I'm I should take rather than
[1:28:22] saying maybe there's another way I can
[1:28:24] manage this. So I I want to empower
[1:28:27] people to learn more about their innate
[1:28:30] abilities and make better use of them.
[1:28:34] >> You uh mentioned your son is a doctor of
[1:28:37] external spaces and I think you're doing
[1:28:39] what you said just that. you're a doctor
[1:28:41] of the internal spaces
[1:28:43] >> and um so thank you so much for the
[1:28:45] devotion and dedication to your work. I
[1:28:46] know it's helped countless individuals
[1:28:48] and I'm sure as a proxy through this
[1:28:50] conversation um
[1:28:53] >> thank you. Is there anything else on
[1:28:54] your mind or heart that you want to
[1:28:55] share?
[1:28:56] >> You're welcome. Well, no, I I appreciate
[1:28:58] the work that you're doing and helping
[1:29:01] people to get interested in things that
[1:29:04] we often don't take seriously. you know,
[1:29:06] how we think about ourselves and what we
[1:29:08] do and how we manage our experience and
[1:29:11] our emotions. And so, I think that you
[1:29:14] and your your uh following are people
[1:29:17] who can and are benefiting from from
[1:29:20] what you're doing that uh it's we're
[1:29:23] learning to take more control of our own
[1:29:25] lives in a very intimate and personal
[1:29:27] way and that's a great thing.
[1:29:31] >> Thank you, David. Appreciate you.
[1:29:33] >> Thank you, Andre. Everybody, until next
[1:29:35] time, [music] be well.