Transcript
[0:00] Hello friends, I'm bringing a brand new
[0:02] live show across the UK and Ireland this
[0:04] October. It's stories, psychology,
[0:06] audience Q&A's, and whatever happens
[0:08] when thousands of overthinkers
[0:10] voluntarily leave the house and end up
[0:11] in the same room together. I'd love to
[0:12] see you there. The last tour completely
[0:14] sold out, so make sure that you snag
[0:16] tickets now using the link in the
[0:18] description or heading to
[0:19] chriswilliamson.live. Dublin's already
[0:21] sold out, loads of venues are limited.
[0:23] Tickets are very limited, so get yours
[0:25] now. Chriswilliamson.live.
[0:27] You're great. Your work is fantastic.
[0:29] You rule.
[0:30] >> Thank you.
[0:31] Thank you.
[0:32] >> Uh if I was to
[0:34] if I was to try and summarize
[0:37] your worldview on relationships, allow
[0:39] me to step into your skin and wear it
[0:41] for a second. I would summarize it as
[0:44] love by design, not desire.
[0:47] Is that a fair like it's thought, not
[0:50] felt as relationships? That design
[0:52] versus desire thing, how far away am I?
[0:54] >> I I think um I I prefer earned love.
[0:58] Earned love on a daily basis by by
[1:01] knowing how to hack the brain, uh the
[1:03] neuroendocrine system, which we can talk
[1:05] about.
[1:06] By uh by
[1:08] you know, uh
[1:10] designing the relationship uh to protect
[1:13] feelings, uh to enhance feelings, to
[1:16] uh to um uh allow two different people
[1:20] under stress to maintain a collaborative
[1:23] and cooperative attitude.
[1:26] Uh that is a hard get um because that
[1:29] that takes a certain amount of planning,
[1:31] predicting, and planning, and preparing.
[1:33] Uh what what could go wrong between
[1:35] human beings?
[1:37] >> Why are romantic attachment
[1:39] relationships neurochemically
[1:42] so hard to navigate?
[1:44] >> Well, they're hard because in the
[1:46] attachment world, if you uh if you
[1:50] understand or buy the idea of a primary
[1:53] attachment relationship. A primary
[1:55] attachment relationship is one that is
[1:57] is tends to be dyadic
[1:59] with human primates. We pair bond in
[2:02] herds.
[2:03] And the romantic adult primary
[2:06] attachment relationship
[2:08] is most like the earliest one.
[2:11] Which is predicated on survival.
[2:14] So
[2:15] the attachment system is actually an
[2:16] existential
[2:18] you know glue that holds us together.
[2:20] It's the I can't quit you biology. We
[2:23] confuse it for love.
[2:25] And because it goes back to the earliest
[2:29] you know survival relationship
[2:32] that's why breaking up also is hard to
[2:34] do. That's why it has a very long memory
[2:37] cuz it reminds us of that earliest
[2:39] dependency relationship whereas other
[2:42] relationships tend to not do that.
[2:44] >> So we're reliving our childhoods in a
[2:46] way.
[2:47] >> We're we're reliving our relationships
[2:51] how we felt with all these important
[2:54] originals that we were around in this
[2:58] relationship that we call a romantic
[3:01] adult relationship. But it is 12 and
[3:04] before. That is generally how I will
[3:07] think of it is that we have the parents
[3:10] in our heads that we had
[3:12] around 12 and and before that time even
[3:15] if our parents and they do changed a
[3:18] great deal for the better
[3:20] or for the worse
[3:22] we still draw upon the that earliest
[3:25] uh you know because that's the root of
[3:27] our experience through thousands upon
[3:29] thousands of interactions starting from
[3:31] infancy. Most of the people
[3:34] So powerful.
[3:36] >> Is love enough to maintain a
[3:38] relationship?
[3:39] >> Absolutely not.
[3:41] >> [laughter]
[3:46] >> No feeling is
[3:48] cuz feelings come and go and besides who
[3:51] knows what your definition of love is?
[3:54] It may be very different than mine.
[3:56] And even if I were to describe my
[3:58] definition of love in action, my
[4:01] expectations of love may be quite
[4:03] different than what I say.
[4:05] So, there you already have a problem.
[4:08] But, if you're basing your life on
[4:10] emotion, which is like a roller coaster,
[4:13] then your life is like a roller coaster.
[4:15] So, I I think the smartest and the
[4:19] wisest and the way that it's always
[4:21] worked in terms of long-term
[4:23] relationships between individuals of
[4:25] equal power, adults,
[4:27] uh
[4:28] is that uh you have to have first a
[4:31] shared purpose, a reason for being in
[4:34] this relationship, not based on
[4:36] feelings.
[4:37] And a vision of where are we headed?
[4:39] What's the end point? Are we ride or
[4:41] die? Is it all the way till, you know,
[4:43] I'm wiping your butt?
[4:45] Uh you're wiping my butt in old age? Uh
[4:48] you know, what where are we headed? Um
[4:50] and why?
[4:52] What's the point of us? Who or what do
[4:53] we serve?
[4:55] Only purpose that's based on a selfish
[4:58] reason will carry the day because we're
[5:01] too
[5:02] uh unreliable as a species. Um our
[5:06] species is uh
[5:08] notably historically
[5:10] moody and fickle and impulsive and uh
[5:14] unpredictable, sometimes opportunistic,
[5:17] warlike, uh xenophobic, um easily
[5:21] influenced by groups and other people.
[5:23] So, we're we're not great over the long
[5:26] run
[5:27] uh in unions.
[5:29] Therefore, we have to a a account for
[5:32] going through time together, and that
[5:35] would be going through some changes. So,
[5:36] we need an invention, we need a design
[5:40] from the ground up, which is a made-up
[5:42] thing, right? All relationships are made
[5:44] up.
[5:45] That would sustain us in the long run
[5:47] and would account for all of that wiggle
[5:50] room necessary as we change through
[5:52] time, right? Otherwise,
[5:55] uh we're going to you know, we're not
[5:58] going to make it somehow. Um
[6:00] that's issue one. Uh issue two is we
[6:03] have to understand the forces that push
[6:05] us around, namely our survival instinct.
[6:08] Because it's always on and because this
[6:11] relationship is unlike any other on the
[6:15] planet because of its memory, uh most
[6:17] like that earliest one,
[6:19] based on survival. Uh uh it has a long
[6:23] memory and we tend to be proxies for
[6:25] everybody who came before, right? We
[6:27] tend to it's a very projective system.
[6:30] The chances of us accruing threat memory
[6:34] by getting things wrong based on memory
[6:37] and appraisal
[6:38] is 100%.
[6:40] And so if we're not really good at
[6:43] knowing and understanding how to
[6:45] minimize threat and stay collaborative
[6:48] under most stress and pressure,
[6:51] we're going to accrue threat memory,
[6:53] which is a biological matter and
[6:55] eventually takes people down.
[6:58] >> So you're saying we need to respect the
[7:01] biology
[7:02] >> Oh yeah.
[7:02] >> by in advance
[7:04] having structures in place
[7:08] uh and principles that keep guardrails
[7:11] in so that we're not relying on the
[7:14] uh
[7:14] abs and flows of how we feel.
[7:17] >> Like any other any other union of any
[7:20] kind that's professional of any kind, we
[7:24] plan on our devils, not our angels,
[7:26] right? Couples plan on their angels. And
[7:28] that's a big mistake cuz
[7:30] >> What does that mean?
[7:31] >> Um devils we are if the opportunity
[7:33] arises. If we're under enough load
[7:35] bearing, if we're in enough pain or
[7:37] enough pressure, enough stress.
[7:39] Again, emotions. Uh you know, if I'm
[7:41] going to behave according to how I feel,
[7:43] which is pretty much everybody on the
[7:45] planet most likely,
[7:47] then I It stands to reason that we're
[7:50] going to have a hard time getting along,
[7:53] right?
[7:54] And so
[7:56] this this just has to do with predicting
[7:58] what could go wrong and planning for it
[8:00] ahead of time instead of
[8:02] just falling into it, which is what
[8:04] couples always do, right?
[8:06] >> Yeah.
[8:07] >> Couples don't predict, plan, and prepare
[8:08] for what could go wrong based on what
[8:10] has gone wrong.
[8:12] Nobody else does that. Medicine, we do
[8:14] post-mortems, right? We Let's not kill
[8:17] the patient again.
[8:18] Uh and but couples don't do that. They
[8:20] just repeat, repeat.
[8:22] Uh we predict what could go wrong in the
[8:25] police force, in military, in medicine,
[8:28] in science, in business.
[8:31] Couples don't do that. They just walk
[8:32] into the same situations live without
[8:35] being prepared. Uh
[8:37] we would never involve uh get involved
[8:40] with a group of people if we didn't know
[8:42] what the culture was and how are we
[8:44] going to be protected from each other
[8:46] cuz we're animals.
[8:48] Couples don't have any any governance,
[8:51] any way of protecting each other from
[8:52] each other cuz they don't set it up.
[8:55] So couples are the only system, the only
[8:58] voluntary system of free, fair, you
[9:01] know, voluntary system
[9:02] uh of individuals coming together um of
[9:06] equal power and authority, at least on
[9:08] the face of it.
[9:10] It should be on based on terms and
[9:12] conditions that do not have any of this
[9:15] ever.
[9:16] And uh and that is why they're predicted
[9:19] not to last very long or if they do, one
[9:23] or both people are not going to be happy
[9:25] or not going to feel safe and secure.
[9:28] Because there's no social contract uh
[9:31] system of making agreements
[9:34] uh based on purpose, based on what is
[9:36] good
[9:38] so say you both we both right what is
[9:40] best so say we both or what you know is
[9:44] right those are the three
[9:46] and without that it's going to be the
[9:49] wild west
[9:51] >> Does that mean that discussing
[9:52] non-negotiables and practical things in
[9:55] advance and as early as possible is
[9:56] actually the romantic thing to do?
[9:58] >> It's not well I think you don't put that
[10:00] into the hey honey let's go out to
[10:02] dinner and have a nice romantic dinner
[10:04] and everything and let's talk about if
[10:06] we have any deal breakers
[10:08] you could I guess it's not you know it's
[10:12] dual purpose but
[10:14] deal breaker is
[10:16] should be known ahead of time
[10:18] I want a baby
[10:20] I have to have a baby
[10:22] you hate kids
[10:24] and let's get married so that is what
[10:27] people do
[10:28] and that's like not smart because that
[10:30] can't work I want monogamy and you want
[10:33] polyamory well neither of us are wrong
[10:35] we have a right to want what we want and
[10:37] get what we want but we can't do
[10:39] business together because that's going
[10:40] to cause a lot of trouble
[10:42] so those are deal breakers
[10:45] big ticket items that couldn't work
[10:47] because we're pointing in two different
[10:48] directions
[10:49] >> Having a specific shared purpose and
[10:53] vision is still important outside of
[10:55] deal breakers I have to imagine
[10:58] >> So if you look if you look at the human
[10:59] condition and and how people have
[11:01] sustained in groups uh
[11:05] groups don't stay together very long or
[11:08] they don't get along with each other
[11:10] very well if they don't have a shared
[11:12] purpose for being together you and I are
[11:14] going to start a band that's our purpose
[11:16] we want to start a band we want to
[11:19] what what is our goal our vision we want
[11:22] to get a record deal at least initial
[11:25] so if we didn't have that we wouldn't
[11:27] have reason to hang together very much
[11:29] and we would probably not get along
[11:32] because we tend to pick at each other if
[11:33] we don't have a shared purpose.
[11:35] Right? Uh that's if we're, you know,
[11:38] spending a lot of time together.
[11:40] And a shared reason for doing this.
[11:42] Otherwise, we tend to otherize. We tend
[11:44] to pick at each other's differences.
[11:46] We don't uh we don't look naturally to
[11:49] where we agree and where we are the
[11:51] same.
[11:52] People who are consensus makers have to
[11:54] do that. But at the average Joe, because
[11:57] of energy conservation, meaning
[12:01] uh you know, we're meant to do the least
[12:03] amount necessary biologically, all
[12:05] living things,
[12:06] um we're lazy and we won't do things
[12:10] that we should do cuz we don't think we
[12:12] have to.
[12:13] So,
[12:14] uh uh this whole idea of you know, we're
[12:18] in it to win it, uh you know, we're a
[12:20] survival team, uh we want to win, we
[12:23] want to make money, we want to succeed,
[12:25] want to survive,
[12:26] uh um all of these things are essential
[12:29] for keeping things on keeping people on
[12:32] the path together and and not paying
[12:34] attention so much to their differences.
[12:37] Otherwise, we fight. And when it happens
[12:40] in a country such as ours, that's when
[12:43] we see civil war or tribalization or
[12:46] massive amount of splintering, right?
[12:48] Cuz there's no more centralized sense of
[12:51] purpose that holds us together that's
[12:53] believable and uh and a vision, American
[12:56] dream, right?
[12:58] And so, if things break down.
[13:01] Uh
[13:01] so, if that is true with all systems
[13:03] large and small, it goes to follow that
[13:05] a couple would be no different. If they
[13:07] have no shared reason for being
[13:10] at any given time, they're going to
[13:11] fight uh or they'll drift.
[13:14] Because that's what actually holds us
[13:15] together, yeah.
[13:16] >> What's the importance of agreements?
[13:19] >> Uh
[13:20] that's all we've got to keep us from uh
[13:22] being harmful to each other. All we have
[13:24] is our pacts, our agreements, our social
[13:27] contracts.
[13:28] Civilizations predicated on social
[13:30] contracts. The first laws of religion,
[13:35] even though it was a social contract
[13:37] with God, an Old Testament God that
[13:40] would rain in your bedroom 40 days, 40
[13:41] nights if you disobeyed, you know, that
[13:44] was a powerful thing to get people to
[13:45] start to behave. The first way of
[13:48] getting people to stop harming each
[13:50] other
[13:52] with the 10 Commandments, right? So,
[13:54] everything is predicated on agreements.
[13:56] Otherwise, we we go to war. We do harm.
[14:01] You know, we're
[14:02] like I said, we're selfish,
[14:03] self-centered,
[14:05] opportunistic animals. If we can get
[14:08] away with something, we will. That's
[14:10] that's in our DNA.
[14:12] Only norms and laws and principles and
[14:15] rules keep us from doing that and allows
[14:18] us to stay together in safety and
[14:21] harmony. Otherwise, we wouldn't. No
[14:24] difference with a couple. So, they have
[14:26] to come up with this as well.
[14:27] >> In other news, have you ever noticed how
[14:29] some websites make it ridiculously easy
[14:31] to buy while some feel infinitely
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[14:34] >> Back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles
[14:36] to the local store.
[14:37] >> Aren't you younger than me?
[14:38] >> Yeah, but my dad got a DUI.
[14:41] >> Anyway, the reality is most businesses
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[15:21] That's shopify.com/modernwisdom.
[15:23] Why do we make the fundamental agreement
[15:25] to prioritize each other above
[15:27] everything else at all times?
[15:29] >> You don't have to. You could agree that
[15:31] ourselves come first. Then you'd have to
[15:34] describe that to each other, define
[15:36] that. What does that really mean? Same
[15:38] with a relationship. What does it mean
[15:39] in practical purposes? If this happens,
[15:42] what would we do? If that happens, what
[15:44] would we do?
[15:45] Are there any exceptions to this? What
[15:47] could go wrong with this idea of putting
[15:49] ourselves first? Uh what happens if if
[15:53] this relationship crashes and burns?
[15:56] Um we put ourselves first. What does
[15:58] that uh do for our kids? What does that
[16:01] do for our own health? So does it make
[16:03] sense?
[16:04] Well, maybe we put religion first.
[16:06] That's fine. But you'd have to think it
[16:09] through because you're planning your
[16:11] life
[16:12] because your lives depend on this. How
[16:14] you're going to rule, how you're going
[16:16] to govern, what decisions you're going
[16:18] to make is going to be predicated on
[16:20] what is the highest priority, right?
[16:23] Otherwise, you're not a team.
[16:25] It'll be chaos when load-bearing hits.
[16:27] You're going to, you know, be
[16:28] unprepared.
[16:30] So
[16:31] uh it's all practical, it's all
[16:33] tactical. It it's not about emotion,
[16:36] it's about what would be the best thing
[16:38] and what
[16:40] what one thing must be protected at all
[16:42] costs in order for everything else to
[16:45] thrive. That's how to think of it,
[16:47] right?
[16:47] >> Mhm.
[16:48] >> But it has to be defined, has to be done
[16:50] judiciously because again it's no small
[16:52] thing. Your happiness, safety, and
[16:54] security, everything's predicated on
[16:56] your design.
[16:57] >> What's the threat response based on
[16:59] memory?
[17:00] >> Well, memory is is is a problem. We're
[17:03] memory animals. Everything we do is by
[17:07] memory. Most of our day is memory run.
[17:10] It's automatic. We're not thinking.
[17:12] We're not using energy-expending areas
[17:14] of the brain that use critical thinking.
[17:17] We save that for novelty. We save that
[17:19] for our work. Save that for other
[17:21] things.
[17:22] But so we're just walking through the
[17:24] day doing things automatically
[17:26] reflexively based on memory.
[17:29] The um because of our survival instinct
[17:32] uh
[17:33] negative memory negative experiences
[17:36] favored
[17:38] uh in memory because of we have to
[17:40] remember where we're hurt because of
[17:42] danger. So survival is at the top of our
[17:46] subcortical drive.
[17:48] Right? And it does not uh it does not
[17:51] equivocate. It does not differentiate.
[17:54] Uh you hurt me if you didn't fix it
[17:56] right away and you do it again then I'm
[18:00] going to predict you're going to do it
[18:01] again and again and again which you will
[18:03] feel attacked by.
[18:05] But that is me protecting myself. Uh I'm
[18:08] using pattern recognition to sweep the
[18:10] environment for cues.
[18:12] And every time you you repeat something
[18:15] or we repeat something that's
[18:16] threatening
[18:17] the array of threat cues that I'm
[18:20] looking for increase.
[18:22] Naturally makes sense. It doesn't know
[18:24] the difference between you holding a gun
[18:26] on me and you uh you looking askance uh
[18:30] that I view as a judgment as an attack
[18:32] as a criticism. Right?
[18:35] And so this becomes problematic if we're
[18:37] not careful
[18:39] which is why there are ways to uh to
[18:42] prevent this from taking hold because it
[18:45] does have a snowball effect.
[18:47] >> It does It sounds like it sounds like it
[18:48] sensitizes your system over time.
[18:50] >> Yeah. Has to because we have to survive.
[18:53] Uh this part of our brain is lightning
[18:56] fast. It I see it I shoot it.
[18:59] And that makes sense if you if you're if
[19:01] your life depends on on making a a quick
[19:05] decision and an an an action that
[19:07] protects you uh from a danger it makes
[19:11] sense that this can be a problem
[19:13] relationships.
[19:15] Because
[19:16] I will react very quickly based on my
[19:19] own narrative history memory
[19:21] and I will likely be wrong and you will
[19:23] likely feel
[19:25] threatened by my assuming.
[19:28] Which you will then protect yourself and
[19:30] behave in a way that's threatening in
[19:32] return and therein lies problem with the
[19:35] human condition. Why we're better at
[19:37] war.
[19:39] >> [gasps]
[19:40] >> We're we're just not great at
[19:42] relationships over the long run.
[19:44] So there are ways to remedy this if you
[19:47] know what you're up against. One is
[19:49] quick repair.
[19:51] Quick repair is a way to keep memory
[19:54] from going into long-term memory where
[19:56] it's the gift that keeps on giving.
[19:58] And sadly most people don't fix things
[20:01] quickly. They don't fix things. I'm
[20:03] sorry you're right that was stupid. I
[20:05] shouldn't have done that. I'm sorry. I
[20:08] love you. And then move on, right? Um
[20:10] they delay it. They don't do it. They
[20:14] they apologize in in the wrong way.
[20:17] Uh
[20:18] and and so the beat goes on and this is
[20:20] why families lose their kids.
[20:23] Estrangement. That's why people get
[20:24] sued. That's why in the old days people
[20:27] you know, challenge each other to a duel
[20:29] to the death. You know, because um we
[20:32] remember harm done. We don't forget it.
[20:36] Person who harms us does.
[20:38] But because of the adrenaline that's
[20:40] created created when we feel
[20:42] misunderstood, hurt, judged,
[20:46] something's unfair, unjust.
[20:48] Uh that that creates a lot of juice to
[20:51] go into long-term memory unless you fix
[20:54] it right away which case it doesn't.
[20:58] So that's one of the main reasons to
[21:01] grow up and do what we invented. Uh the
[21:05] reason we invented apologies uh, amends,
[21:08] was to hold on to our relationships.
[21:11] And if you two want to hold on to your
[21:12] relationship with your kid or your your
[21:15] spouse or your parents, then you got to
[21:17] learn how to fall on your sword
[21:20] and only apologize
[21:23] um, without equivocation, without
[21:25] qualification, explanation, uh, without
[21:28] any any other qualifier, if you know
[21:30] what's good for you. Is that in the real
[21:32] world is the only thing that'll relax
[21:34] another person. Yeah, the only thing.
[21:37] And I have to apologize for what you
[21:38] think I did, not what I think I did.
[21:42] >> Mhm.
[21:42] >> Think how hard that is for us cuz we're
[21:44] so prideful. We think that we're always
[21:47] right.
[21:48] And that's not true, by the way.
[21:51] We're hardly ever right by much.
[21:54] And, um, but, you know, it's our
[21:56] arrogance. It's our, you know, hubris to
[21:59] think that our communication was
[22:00] spot-on. I heard you clearly. Um, uh, my
[22:04] memory is great. Uh, my perception is is
[22:07] correct. Yours isn't. And none of this I
[22:10] can prove. None of this is true at any
[22:12] given time. It's all false. And yet,
[22:15] we'll die on that hill unless we're
[22:17] dumb.
[22:18] >> It's so fascinating that
[22:21] intense negative experiences, if
[22:24] repaired quickly,
[22:26] have
[22:28] basically a completely different future
[22:30] ahead of them than ones that are left to
[22:32] fester. That if you're in a relationship
[22:34] which has regular rupture without
[22:35] repair, and especially without repair
[22:37] quickly,
[22:39] that makes it's painful in the moment
[22:43] and
[22:44] more painful in the future and
[22:47] sensitizes your system to detecting this
[22:51] happening again, even perhaps when it's
[22:53] not, which means that your world view is
[22:56] going to appear increasingly deranged to
[22:59] the other person who needs to apologize
[23:01] based on your interpretation, not on
[23:04] their projection.
[23:06] >> Right.
[23:07] >> It's vicious. It's a It's a really badly
[23:09] designed system.
[23:11] >> Well, it's it's not designed, like I
[23:13] said, for Remember, we used to die at at
[23:15] 15 or 30 tops, right? We didn't live
[23:18] that long. We would pair bond for 4
[23:20] years and then leave and then, you know,
[23:23] mix up the gene pool. That, you know,
[23:25] that satisfied the, you know, the
[23:27] natural the ways of natural laws and and
[23:29] that nature's
[23:31] uh right? Nature didn't plan on us,
[23:33] you know, doing what we do today.
[23:36] We're on our own.
[23:37] Uh that's why we have to invent our
[23:40] meaning. We did We're not born into a
[23:42] world with meaning, right? Clearly.
[23:45] We're not born into a world where we get
[23:47] why we're here and how we got here and
[23:49] where we're going.
[23:51] That's the whole existential dilemma,
[23:53] right? It's the angst. You know, we're
[23:54] going to die, we're alone, uh we don't
[23:57] know uh why we're here, um uh and life
[24:01] has no meaning,
[24:03] right? Uh that's very depressing. So, we
[24:05] create meaning,
[24:07] right? Same thing. But meaning also
[24:09] involves governance.
[24:11] How are we going to protect each other
[24:12] from each other? That is not in by
[24:15] nature, right? We We are predators.
[24:18] We're apex predators as as a matter of
[24:21] fact.
[24:22] Um we're nice on a when we're happy,
[24:24] right? Yeah. But you may not want to be
[24:26] around us if we're unhappy. We're kind
[24:28] of nasty. Unless unless
[24:31] there are norms, you know? Sweetheart,
[24:33] you know, my 14-year-old daughter,
[24:36] uh
[24:36] you can be angry. You cannot walk around
[24:38] and destroy the atmosphere here for
[24:40] everybody who's in the house. That's a
[24:42] community issue. You can't do it.
[24:44] So, stop it.
[24:46] Right? Um only that stops that kind of
[24:48] behavior. Um no, you can't do this. I
[24:52] know you want to do it, but I'll show
[24:53] you you can't. Try.
[24:55] And I will show you you can't. And that
[24:58] uh gives rise to an idea that there are
[25:01] limits, there are boundaries, there are
[25:03] things you can and cannot do. But let's
[25:04] say I don't do that. Let's say I give
[25:06] in,
[25:07] then you can get away with anything.
[25:10] Right? Cuz there is no God. I did that.
[25:13] It doesn't happen naturally. Um you
[25:15] know, Lord of the Flies, you know, we're
[25:17] animals. And the off the the uh the
[25:21] product line, you know, uh
[25:23] human primate
[25:25] isn't great.
[25:27] >> [snorts]
[25:28] [laughter]
[25:28] >> You know, uh you know, civilization uh
[25:32] you know, uh
[25:33] over so many years of uh of you know,
[25:37] building complexity socially,
[25:39] emotionally, and and and um ideals and
[25:43] values and and uh and and morals,
[25:48] principles. That That, you know, in in
[25:51] the whole span of history, of course,
[25:53] it's a blip, but in our time, it's a
[25:56] long period
[25:58] to get here, and we're still a mess.
[26:00] Um and so, you know, again, don't be
[26:04] naive.
[26:06] You are responsible for this
[26:08] relationship. No one else is. You're the
[26:10] only ones who are going to benefit and
[26:13] are also going to suffer if you're not
[26:16] an an alliance, right? If you're not
[26:19] working together, you can't work. If
[26:22] you're not able to work together as a
[26:24] two-person system of we and us
[26:27] interdependently having the same things
[26:29] to gain and lose,
[26:31] are you going to survive this life,
[26:33] really?
[26:34] Uh with all the slings and arrows and
[26:36] all the the things that happen and and
[26:39] the indifference of others, which, you
[26:41] know, just test that out. When the chips
[26:43] are down, people will be indifferent to
[26:45] your concerns.
[26:47] Um
[26:48] and that's just the way it is.
[26:51] Uh and so, not knowing that and
[26:54] preparing is just simply not being aware
[26:57] and not being an adult and and in
[27:00] reality.
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[28:07] >> I've heard you say that if you leave
[28:09] those memories to encode in long-term
[28:11] for too long, you can end up seeing your
[28:13] partner more as a predator than a lover.
[28:15] >> Yeah, the subcortical brain does not
[28:18] differentiate.
[28:19] >> What's what's happening What's happening
[28:20] neurochemically in and in
[28:22] the brain?
[28:23] >> Well, the
[28:25] there's an intentional center uh um
[28:28] uh the salience network in the brain is
[28:31] what causes me to to look, right? You
[28:34] know, I hear a sound and I look. That's
[28:35] a salience network that's directing me
[28:37] to what's most important at this moment.
[28:40] And there are other networks that are
[28:41] involved here that are fear-related
[28:44] um and threat-related that are involved
[28:47] in this one network.
[28:49] And so, I I begin to hone in on your
[28:52] face because you repeatedly do something
[28:54] that reminds me of something that makes
[28:56] me feel small
[28:59] and devalue, okay? You may not intend to
[29:02] do that, but your intentions aren't the
[29:03] matter here.
[29:05] Um I'm picking up a threat memory a cue
[29:08] from your face because I'm vigilant. Um
[29:12] I've I now have to look for this because
[29:15] I've been hurt too much.
[29:17] >> [clears throat]
[29:17] >> You feel attacked by it, but I'm simply
[29:20] taking care of myself. I don't control
[29:22] this. It is pushing me around.
[29:25] It's because I don't understand it,
[29:26] right? I assume that everything I'm
[29:29] picking up is correct. I don't check.
[29:31] You know, are you are you are you doing
[29:33] that thing right now?
[29:35] >> [clears throat]
[29:36] >> Right? I just I just shoot first uh
[29:38] assuming you are doing it. And that's
[29:40] because these areas don't have an
[29:42] executive function.
[29:44] They're not meant to have an executive
[29:46] function. An executive function takes
[29:49] time and resources.
[29:51] That is why that that, you know, when
[29:54] we're relaxed, we have all oars in the
[29:56] water, we can think, we can error
[30:00] correct, we can we can think in a
[30:03] relativistic way and not in a in in a uh
[30:07] dominant end way, right? I am certain.
[30:10] No, maybe you're right.
[30:11] But I'm relaxed. I can do that. As soon
[30:13] as I blood pressure and heart rate go to
[30:15] a certain level, my brain changes. I
[30:18] literally don't have a capacity to do
[30:21] that because the executive areas
[30:25] uh demand a lot of resources to run,
[30:28] oxygen, glucose, and blood.
[30:31] That is now going to my striated muscles
[30:33] because I'm starting to get into fight
[30:35] or flight. I'm getting hyper-aroused.
[30:38] And there's a brain change. I'm altered.
[30:40] I no longer care about your interests.
[30:44] And it takes very little uh this is uh
[30:47] Robert Sapolsky's uh work not just very
[30:50] little uh glucocorticoids coursing
[30:53] through my veins for me not to give a
[30:55] damn about you.
[30:57] And you lose me as an audience if you're
[30:59] not careful.
[31:00] Um you don't even think it cuz you
[31:02] haven't noticed you've lost me as an
[31:04] audience.
[31:05] Uh I feel unsafe therefore talk to the
[31:07] hand. I care only about my interests and
[31:10] you get nothing.
[31:11] That's how sensitive the system is cuz
[31:13] I've determined I'm not safe
[31:15] on a subcortical level.
[31:17] Now, I may not know this but you will if
[31:21] you pay attention.
[31:23] I will know when you fall into out of
[31:25] safety because I'm watching you if I am.
[31:29] Um and that's why
[31:31] you know, in each other's care is we're
[31:34] psychobiologically wired in close
[31:36] proximity to pick up social emotional
[31:39] cues faster from the other person than
[31:43] we are from our own bodies.
[31:45] >> Mhm.
[31:46] >> That makes it
[31:47] uh that makes us primed for something
[31:49] called interactive regulation or
[31:51] coregulation, right?
[31:53] Um that's another kind of teamwork but
[31:55] it's more autonomic.
[31:57] Anyway, so uh so
[32:00] uh it doesn't you know, this is a very
[32:02] stupid part of us but it's but we'll
[32:04] thank it because we dodged a bullet.
[32:06] Um
[32:07] and and so
[32:09] I have to understand
[32:12] that you and I
[32:14] have to talk to each other in a
[32:16] particular way.
[32:18] Otherwise
[32:20] uh you'll confuse me as an adversary.
[32:24] And this is what's hard about secure
[32:25] functioning. The formula really is
[32:29] I have to take care of myself and you at
[32:33] the same time
[32:35] under stress or you will confuse me for
[32:37] an adversary. And it will compel you to
[32:40] then take care of yourself on
[32:43] Now we're one-person systems. We're no
[32:45] longer
[32:46] in a team sport, we're in a solo sport.
[32:48] >> Does this explain
[32:50] how
[32:51] >> everybody. There are no exceptions to
[32:53] this, by the way. They're all people.
[32:55] >> Mhm.
[32:56] Does this explain how resentment
[32:57] accumulates in relationships, and
[32:59] relationships start to look very
[33:00] deranged from
[33:02] both the outside and the inside?
[33:04] >> Um
[33:05] One of the greatest uh causes of anger,
[33:08] sustained anger, is injustice, right?
[33:11] Uh the other is helplessness. Um
[33:14] uh
[33:15] uh
[33:15] uh and, you know, right? And so
[33:18] a any any system that's too unfair, too
[33:21] unjust, uh and too insensitive can't
[33:23] last because it's unfair, unless
[33:26] it's an employer, you know, asymmetric
[33:29] relationship where I have to suck it up
[33:30] cuz I want the job and I need the money.
[33:33] But in in a in a equal system that's
[33:37] voluntary, that's voluntary,
[33:40] if it's not fair and just, um
[33:42] and I'm getting the short end of the
[33:44] stick, you should keep your eyes open at
[33:45] night cuz that never ends well
[33:48] uh in the human uh field, right? And so
[33:52] insecure functioning is too unfair.
[33:55] Uh it's good to be king.
[33:56] Um and I get things at your cost, not
[33:59] realizing that we're tied together
[34:02] psychobiologically. Anything I do to you
[34:05] is going to happen to me.
[34:07] There's no decoupling that, unless
[34:09] unless this is an autocracy, unless I am
[34:13] the dictator, in which case I still
[34:15] better keep my eyes open at night. But,
[34:17] you know, then I get to do everything.
[34:19] Um and you have to do it. But that's not
[34:22] the reality of a free and fair union of
[34:25] equals in an adulthood, right? The
[34:27] expectation is that it be fair, whether
[34:30] people say that or not, it is that way.
[34:33] And that's universal.
[34:35] >> How much can you prune those bad
[34:37] memories? How much harder is it to get
[34:39] over that once you've accumulated them?
[34:42] >> You can't get rid of these memories and
[34:44] you don't want to because that'll happen
[34:46] sooner enough. I'm 72 and starting to
[34:48] happen
[34:50] with names, but you don't want to get
[34:52] rid of those memories.
[34:53] Um the only way to change the past is to
[34:55] change the future.
[34:57] There's no other way. These these
[34:59] neuropathways are weighted by repeats,
[35:03] right? We're repeating things. Yeah, and
[35:05] that's the worst.
[35:06] >> Mhm.
[35:07] >> This is the smart thing to do that we
[35:08] already know and couples don't do. One
[35:11] is
[35:12] I will apologize forever for harm done.
[35:14] That is the right and just thing to do.
[35:17] In the real world, that is expected. I
[35:19] don't get a free pass in memory.
[35:23] Right? By saying, "I don't need to
[35:24] apologize. I did my time in prison."
[35:26] That's not ever going to work. Same in
[35:30] couples, right? I'll always apologize
[35:32] for what you feel I did. No problem. But
[35:35] let's put something in place, you and I,
[35:38] to prevent either of us from doing that
[35:41] again.
[35:43] If only
[35:45] we did that.
[35:47] We'd be great.
[35:49] Because we're doing the same thing.
[35:52] We're learning from the past and we're
[35:54] creating a future that is different
[35:57] based on what we learned. Let's not do
[35:59] that again. Not you, not just me, either
[36:02] of us cuz we're human. We could both do
[36:05] this.
[36:06] So, we found a place where we're
[36:07] vulnerable.
[36:08] Let's close that up as we go.
[36:12] But couples don't do that.
[36:13] They just walk right into the same thing
[36:15] again, rinse and repeat, and that is
[36:17] deadly.
[36:19] You do not want repetition. It creates
[36:21] inflammation. Once that repetition
[36:23] start, it accrues. And sadly, I deal
[36:26] with couples that have been together,
[36:27] you know, sometimes 12 years, but you
[36:29] know, often three to 30 years.
[36:31] And they're burdened not only by
[36:35] having to uh look back at all the
[36:37] resentments, but they feel compelled to
[36:40] litigate the past.
[36:42] >> Mhm.
[36:42] >> Just rehearsing the same thing that
[36:44] nothing comes of it.
[36:46] And besides, memory sucks and they're
[36:47] going to fight about memory.
[36:49] I'm I'm there and they're not watching
[36:51] where they're going, so they're
[36:52] repeating.
[36:54] Um I The other thing is that when they
[36:56] do try to work on the relationship, now
[36:59] memory intrudes
[37:01] on the present and puts the kibosh on
[37:04] the future.
[37:05] This is a big problem we're trying to
[37:07] solve.
[37:08] >> How so? How does this happen?
[37:10] >> We you and I have been fighting for
[37:12] years.
[37:13] And and um we both complain of
[37:16] unfairness. Right? And we neither of us
[37:19] trust each other now because we did
[37:21] that. We did that.
[37:23] Um years of doing business poorly.
[37:26] Now we want to right things, right? And
[37:29] we go to, let's say, me or anybody who's
[37:31] pre uh proposing, let's design this
[37:34] thing from the ground up.
[37:36] Um
[37:37] as we're doing this,
[37:39] one of us is going to go, that's not
[37:42] going to you know, you know.
[37:44] Why are you depressed? Because he'll
[37:46] never do this.
[37:48] I already know. And now I'm back
[37:50] because [snorts]
[37:51] subcortically
[37:53] I'm being yelled at.
[37:55] Don't trust him.
[37:58] That won't happen. It's right?
[38:01] Why am I being fatalistic? Because I'm
[38:04] being warned on what has happened.
[38:08] It doesn't It has no interest
[38:11] and I say yeah to this these networks
[38:13] that are subcortical
[38:15] have no interest that we're working on
[38:17] something to improve it.
[38:20] Therefore, what is now causing us a big
[38:24] problem is that neither of us can forget
[38:27] as we're going forward. Going forward
[38:30] triggers the past. The past is always
[38:33] present. That's the problem. Yeah. Past
[38:36] that we created.
[38:37] >> Yeah.
[38:38] >> That it adds a huge
[38:41] neurobiological layer of difficulty.
[38:44] Think of this. Um
[38:47] uh
[38:48] you know, as numbers grow gets more
[38:50] difficult because of memory. Israel and
[38:53] Palestine Palestine.
[38:55] They cannot get out of this loop because
[38:58] there are generations upon generations
[39:01] of memory.
[39:03] Where everybody is getting their
[39:05] justice, right? I want my justice and
[39:08] it's to blow up your family and now you
[39:10] have a reason to get your justice and
[39:13] and there's no getting out of that,
[39:15] right? Because there's too many people
[39:16] with too much memory and there's too
[39:18] many people wanting to get their justice
[39:21] at the cost of somebody else.
[39:23] Well, partners do this, too. I want my
[39:25] justice and now I create a new one at
[39:27] you, right?
[39:29] You could put the kibosh on that. But it
[39:31] is hard because the very same problem
[39:34] is that I feel that something happened
[39:36] to me.
[39:37] There's that itch I need to scratch. I
[39:40] need you to pay. I need I need something
[39:44] to square this. Because there have been
[39:46] too many years of unfairness and
[39:48] sometimes I just have to divorce you.
[39:50] So,
[39:52] I this accruing of memory is central and
[39:56] if people only knew,
[39:58] they could prevent this.
[40:00] Uh because it is human nature. It's not
[40:03] him or her. It's all of us. This is a
[40:06] problem.
[40:07] And if you don't know about it, you're
[40:09] going to do it.
[40:11] >> It feels like prevention is
[40:13] significantly better than an attempt at
[40:14] repair.
[40:15] >> Yes, because you cannot erase the
[40:17] memory. You can only relegate it those
[40:21] neuro pathways to a dirt road cuz
[40:23] they're no longer being used. They're no
[40:25] longer being triggered. Nothing you're
[40:27] doing right now triggers that memory.
[40:30] >> But given that most people live lives of
[40:32] routine,
[40:33] um
[40:34] you
[40:36] were concerned and
[40:39] small amount of justification about why
[40:41] your partner was staying late at work
[40:43] with somebody that you felt
[40:44] uncomfortable about.
[40:46] You learned this lesson and you even do
[40:49] some of the repair. You deal with all
[40:50] the difficulty of
[40:52] going back over it. You do an open and
[40:54] honest completely frank apology. But the
[40:56] next time that your partner stays late
[40:57] at work
[40:59] regardless of what's been done to the
[41:01] past
[41:02] the present and your predictions about
[41:04] the future are now being colored by what
[41:06] happened before.
[41:07] >> Right. Right.
[41:08] Not only is the past always present but
[41:11] the present is changing the past as
[41:13] well.
[41:14] So you and I had a great wedding um but
[41:18] our marriage sucks and 12 years, 13, 15,
[41:21] 20 years down the line, the therapist
[41:24] ask us, "How was your wedding?"
[41:26] And our report is not great.
[41:29] Contrast that with a couple who had the
[41:32] worst had wedding from hell. People were
[41:34] arrested, drugs were found, um
[41:36] looted all gifts were looted all sorts
[41:39] of things happened. This is a true
[41:40] story.
[41:41] But their marriage um
[41:44] was it became a great marriage. They
[41:46] look back on it as funny
[41:49] as amazing. Um
[41:53] the present state of mind changes our
[41:56] memory which is why memory
[41:58] it is completely unreliable, folks.
[42:02] If you're arguing about memory, you're
[42:04] you're engaged in something where you're
[42:05] both wrong.
[42:06] >> Which is why it's so much better to just
[42:09] apologize for however your partner sees
[42:11] it.
[42:11] >> Yeah, you don't lose anything.
[42:13] You gain. You keep your marriage. You
[42:15] keep your your relationship intact.
[42:17] >> Does distance make this harder?
[42:19] Obviously, we're in a a modern world
[42:20] with a lot of people who argue, but
[42:22] they're not together.
[42:23] Um
[42:24] maybe they fight over the phone or text
[42:27] message or email, whatever. Does What
[42:30] does What wrinkles does that add to the
[42:32] rupture and repair conversation?
[42:34] >> I love your questions, Chris. They're
[42:36] great. Um
[42:38] here's the problem.
[42:39] We're We're
[42:41] We're face-to-face eye-to-eye animals.
[42:43] We're legally blind on this side. We
[42:44] have to be dead on to regulate each
[42:46] other because we're visual We have a
[42:48] visual brain.
[42:49] Therefore, we error correct through the
[42:51] visual field.
[42:52] Everything else is messy.
[42:54] So, if we're on the phone, we lose the
[42:57] visual, which means we're only using the
[43:00] auditory.
[43:01] Now, since we're visual, we're
[43:02] visualizing things according to our own
[43:04] state of mind. So, if I'm angry with
[43:07] you, what picture of you in my head do I
[43:09] have at the moment? Probably not great.
[43:12] That colors how you sound.
[43:15] Um so, my error rate in understanding
[43:19] and appraising you, especially if I'm
[43:21] under stress, all of this is about when
[43:24] we're under stress,
[43:25] which is a lot,
[43:27] right? We're only talking about when one
[43:30] of us is under stress, things are going
[43:32] to go wonky if we're not not careful.
[43:36] Under stress, I'm going to hear
[43:39] differently.
[43:40] Because the state of mind that is that
[43:43] is triggered by this
[43:45] by my feeling, by my stress,
[43:48] is connected to memory.
[43:50] And they they operate in a loop. They
[43:52] reinforce each other.
[43:55] The my state of mind alters my
[43:56] perception like a funhouse mirror.
[43:59] And it's stunning.
[44:00] What I see, what I taste, what I hear,
[44:03] what I feel, all of that is altered by
[44:06] my state.
[44:08] Therefore,
[44:09] what could go wrong here?
[44:11] Um I am at a angry state. I am talking
[44:15] in a way my prosody changes that is
[44:17] unfriendly to you. I can't see your
[44:19] face, you can't see my face. Maybe I was
[44:21] smiling.
[44:22] Uh you don't know. Uh now we're going to
[44:24] fight for no reason because we're our
[44:28] error rate is sky high and the more
[44:30] excited we get
[44:31] the worst uh the error rate goes really
[44:34] high, right?
[44:36] And [clears throat] and it's over
[44:38] nothing, right? It's over our brain
[44:40] thinks it's something, it isn't.
[44:42] Um or text.
[44:44] I mean, it's crazy. Uh
[44:47] never do relationship stuff or text. You
[44:49] send your
[44:50] a picture of your goofy face, I love
[44:53] you, emoticons,
[44:54] uh what time's dinner? That's it. No
[44:56] >> That's the limit. That's the upper bound
[44:58] of how much your relationship should be
[44:59] mediated through the phone.
[45:01] >> Yes. I What did we used to do?
[45:04] Well, you used to draw pictures on a
[45:06] cave, but you know,
[45:08] in the old days I'd write you a letter
[45:10] and it would take a month at least to
[45:12] get to you. You could be sure I
[45:14] wrote that thinking very carefully
[45:18] very carefully about what I am saying.
[45:20] It was beautiful letter, right? Yeah,
[45:22] beautiful letter. I didn't need spell
[45:24] check.
[45:25] I had my anxiety knowing that you're
[45:27] going to see this letter and it was
[45:29] going to take about a month, right? I
[45:30] wanted you to get this exactly right.
[45:35] Well, what do we do now?
[45:38] We get in a lot of trouble with our
[45:39] text, with our work, you know, with you
[45:42] know, add to that a little bit of Ambien
[45:43] or a little bit of benzodiazepines or
[45:45] alcohol and everything and we're
[45:46] screwed. So,
[45:50] yeah, we do not understand our
[45:52] limitations. There are things we cannot
[45:54] do and yet we expect things that are not
[45:58] possible. Like you and I under stress
[46:00] can talk about more than one topic
[46:03] without fighting, that's impossible.
[46:05] Or that you and I can talk about an
[46:07] emotional conversation while one of us
[46:09] is driving.
[46:11] That will end badly. It's not possible.
[46:13] Uh you know, there are things that
[46:16] people don't understand that we're
[46:18] limited
[46:19] by. We're smart in so many areas and
[46:22] we're so stupid on a daily
[46:26] basis.
[46:27] And it's funny except we take all of it
[46:30] personally and most of it isn't. Most of
[46:32] it is because we're stupid, automatic,
[46:35] reflexive, memory based, not thinking,
[46:36] not paying attention.
[46:38] Um because we live in a world where our
[46:40] attention is constantly split now.
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[47:39] What does I'm thinking about
[47:42] kind of how we discussed at the top this
[47:44] it's like a conversation about
[47:45] compatibility.
[47:48] How much of relationship conflict is
[47:51] just based around incompatibility and
[47:53] and not pointing in the same direction
[47:55] or being specific about what each of you
[47:57] wants to see if you're in agreement in
[47:59] advance.
[48:01] >> Compatibility in my game, in my mind,
[48:05] only is where you and I are pointing in
[48:08] two different directions on the big
[48:10] ticket items, right? I want full
[48:13] transparency. I want us to have you
[48:15] know, we're this is a team sports as I.
[48:17] I want us to work together. I want our
[48:21] left hands and right hands to know the
[48:22] same thing. That keeps us safe. That's
[48:25] what I want best thing and you say not
[48:27] so fast.
[48:28] I don't which you have a right to say.
[48:31] I don't think that's the best idea for
[48:33] me. I don't think it's really good for
[48:35] you, but I'll try to convince you.
[48:37] I think we should have our secrets. I
[48:39] think we should have our privacy.
[48:41] Every right to want that.
[48:43] Now, if you stick to your guns and I
[48:44] can't get you over to my side, you can't
[48:46] get me over to your side
[48:48] in an honest way. I have to really
[48:50] selfishly want what you want or it won't
[48:53] work.
[48:54] And vice versa.
[48:56] Um, we're not we're incompatible.
[49:00] We're we're just we're not wrong, we're
[49:01] just incompatible.
[49:03] Um, that's true incompatibility. Not you
[49:06] have a greater sex drive than I do. Not
[49:08] um, I like tennis and you don't. Not
[49:11] Right?
[49:12] That's not the kind of compatibility
[49:15] that's going to make a difference in
[49:17] life. Cuz every all interests are going
[49:19] to change no matter what.
[49:21] That's not a problem, right? You can
[49:23] create mutual interests.
[49:25] Um, but these things won't work. It's
[49:28] not about healthy, unhealthy, good, bad,
[49:30] right, or wrong. It just can't work.
[49:32] Right? Uh, it's a built-in fight.
[49:35] So, uh, you know, you can't ignore those
[49:37] things.
[49:38] But the attachment system, the I can't
[49:40] quit you biology will make us go
[49:43] let's get married
[49:44] and ignore that deal breaker.
[49:47] >> [laughter]
[49:48] >> It's
[49:48] >> What's You've said it a couple of times,
[49:50] uh, the I can't quit you biology. What
[49:52] is that?
[49:54] >> Attachment
[49:56] is is nature's glue. It keeps us sticky.
[49:59] It keeps us together.
[50:01] And and it feels like love cuz it has
[50:05] loving
[50:06] aspects to it and behaviorally
[50:09] could have it.
[50:11] But let's say you or an I are I'm
[50:14] abusive. I hurt you physically and
[50:17] mentally.
[50:19] Um
[50:20] that glue is likely to keep you in this
[50:22] relationship and you'll justify it in
[50:24] all sorts of ways.
[50:26] Um or because you're financially
[50:28] dependent on me, you'll justify it. Or
[50:30] because your religion says this. Or
[50:32] because you're in a in a culture where
[50:34] divorce is looked down upon. Or whatever
[50:37] it is, you'll come up with or the kids,
[50:38] the kids will suffer that, right? I have
[50:41] all these reasons, but I'm telling you
[50:42] the main reason
[50:44] is the attachment biology. That is uh
[50:47] connected to survival. That feels like
[50:49] death.
[50:51] I'm largely unaware of it. Some people
[50:53] are acutely aware.
[50:56] Right? Depending on their attachment
[50:57] organization.
[50:58] Um but that isn't always there thing for
[51:01] most people. There are outliers, but
[51:04] they are they're different. They don't
[51:06] they
[51:07] they're different. Um they don't attach
[51:09] in the same way.
[51:11] Um and so uh it you know, it it the
[51:15] everything in nature has a feature
[51:18] and a bug. Everything that's feature is
[51:21] a bug. And also in personalities, also
[51:24] I you know, if somebody has massive OCD,
[51:27] that's a feature for a a surgeon. For
[51:30] you know, you want your surgeon to have
[51:32] OCD. You want your surgeon your your
[51:34] pilot to have OC, right? Your accountant
[51:36] to have OC. That's great. You don't want
[51:38] a spouse with OCD necessarily cuz that's
[51:40] a pain in the ass.
[51:42] That's a bug there. So all of this
[51:46] isn't really good or bad. All people are
[51:48] disappointing. All people are pain in
[51:50] the ass. All people are are trouble and
[51:53] a burden.
[51:54] Um
[51:56] what you want is to create a system
[51:58] whereby neither of you can possibly feel
[52:01] unsafe or insecure by design.
[52:04] Neither of you will be unhappy in a
[52:06] relationship by design. You can do that.
[52:09] You can structure things this way.
[52:12] You can't control everything else
[52:15] outside of this, but home I think is as
[52:17] a relationship. Tracy and I,
[52:20] no matter where we go,
[52:22] as long as we're together, I'm fine.
[52:25] And and we've been in some really
[52:27] terrible places. I mean, really terrible
[52:30] places.
[52:31] That's an achievement.
[52:33] >> Mhm.
[52:33] >> Right. You know, that home is where we
[52:35] are.
[52:37] Uh it's going to make me want to cry
[52:38] because when you start to get to this
[52:41] place,
[52:43] the only thing now that's the bug is
[52:46] worrying that you know, you could lose
[52:47] them.
[52:49] You know, not
[52:50] to,
[52:51] you know, affairs, not to divorce, but
[52:54] to death.
[52:55] And and that's really troubling.
[52:58] Although it does make me
[53:01] um appreciate
[53:03] the moment instead of taking it for
[53:05] granted, which is what we should all do
[53:08] cuz we're in denial about that. Your
[53:11] partner could die at any moment. Did you
[53:13] say what you needed to say? Have you
[53:14] really enjoyed that person? Are you
[53:16] really [clears throat] here?
[53:18] Or are you going to regret uh that you,
[53:20] you know,
[53:21] um that's again, nature's forces.
[53:25] Energy conservation is to do the least
[53:28] amount necessary and direct our
[53:29] attention to what we deem important.
[53:32] It's usually something that is not
[53:34] familiar.
[53:35] You are familiar, therefore I don't need
[53:37] to look at you anymore. I don't need to
[53:38] court you or I don't need to
[53:41] I know you anymore. I think I know you.
[53:43] I don't.
[53:44] Um I I I you know, we store a picture of
[53:48] our partners and our children's face in
[53:49] our brain for weeks and months without
[53:52] really looking.
[53:53] I didn't even notice
[53:55] this.
[53:57] That's how lazy we are.
[53:59] And it's not laziness. It's energy
[54:00] conservation. Therefore, we have to
[54:03] build rituals otherwise we would never
[54:05] do anything good for ourselves. We would
[54:06] have to,
[54:08] you know, build things in that are
[54:10] romantic every day that we would do to
[54:13] to fall in love again with each other
[54:15] every day. It just doesn't happen.
[54:19] Uh behavior lags at hell of how we feel.
[54:22] And the and these are the forces we're
[54:24] up against.
[54:25] Um all of us, automation. And we're
[54:28] going to automate each other. Therefore,
[54:30] I think I know you. That's a dangerous
[54:32] proposition.
[54:33] I don't know you. I
[54:35] I don't I can never fully know you. And
[54:38] not only that, you've been on the planet
[54:40] too long. Which is why we used to have
[54:42] pillow talk and shoot the breeze and
[54:44] about our childhood. It's just fun talk.
[54:47] Now I see I see but couples and they
[54:48] know nothing about each other.
[54:51] They're not curious. There's no
[54:52] curiosity. Curiosity is the flame.
[54:55] Curiosity is the dopamine. Curiosity is
[54:57] the strangeness that goes,
[54:59] you know,
[55:00] you're novel even though I think you're
[55:03] familiar.
[55:05] If I look really closely,
[55:07] you're not as familiar as I think. Now
[55:09] you're interesting. But we'd have to
[55:11] look
[55:12] for the novelty in the ordinary. And
[55:16] we're too lazy to do that.
[55:17] >> It's interesting with the
[55:19] I can't quit you thing. I think a lot of
[55:21] people you you you mentioned uh
[55:23] injustice and helplessness. Yes. And uh
[55:26] it's strange that
[55:27] >> And fear and fear make us angry.
[55:30] >> Yeah. Uh
[55:32] with sort of sufficiently disorganized
[55:35] attachment,
[55:37] you can fear and feel injustice and be
[55:40] helplessly stuck inside of a
[55:44] relationship with a person who is both
[55:47] supposedly the self but also the cause
[55:49] of all of these
[55:51] >> Yeah.
[55:51] >> issues of your your
[55:54] psychological maladies. And people will
[55:57] it's another feature and bug scenario
[55:59] where
[56:00] it's a noble thing to sacrifice your
[56:02] needs in place of somebody that you're
[56:04] attached to, but that also can get
[56:06] hijacked to the point where
[56:08] you just continue to grit your teeth as
[56:10] you mentioned a couple that's been
[56:11] together for so long and they haven't
[56:13] enjoyed each other for decades and
[56:15] decades.
[56:16] And they just keep going because
[56:18] >> They can't stop.
[56:20] >> Yeah. Yeah, it's the same
[56:21] addiction.
[56:22] >> There is
[56:24] well,
[56:25] yeah, it there is an addictive component
[56:28] to it. I don't want to mislead your
[56:30] audience because it's not truly that. Um
[56:34] when I when I do something to feel
[56:36] better at the at the cost of doing the
[56:38] right thing. In other words, I feel
[56:40] better, but I just hurt the
[56:41] relationship, the union.
[56:43] I do get a reward for that, right?
[56:47] I feel good, which makes me want to do
[56:49] it again and again. And it is, you know,
[56:51] it is like addiction where I'm going to
[56:53] grab for it because I can't hold and
[56:56] wait. I can't wait, right? I'm going to
[56:58] take it now even though there's
[57:00] downstream bad effects for me, I'm
[57:02] ignoring those.
[57:03] So in that sense, yeah, that's very much
[57:05] like an addiction that is impulsive and
[57:08] and needs to grab impulsively what I
[57:10] need to do
[57:11] despite the fact that it's self-harming.
[57:15] Um so yes, but the system begins to
[57:19] react to itself.
[57:21] And that's really another way to look at
[57:23] it as systemic. And the system is
[57:25] reacting no longer real individuals.
[57:27] They're amplifying each other's
[57:29] negatives by pointing and
[57:32] poking
[57:33] uh their core vulnerabilities.
[57:35] Here's another unfair kind of unkind
[57:38] nature thing.
[57:40] Is that because we pair bond based on
[57:42] some kind of familiarity and
[57:44] recognition? We don't pair bond with
[57:46] strangers that are too strange, right?
[57:48] They have to be familiar enough.
[57:50] Um
[57:51] Um we're both likely to have the bite
[57:53] that fits the other person's wound.
[57:56] Um we're not those people, but we kind
[57:58] of play them on TV.
[58:00] Uh we have the we have the predilection,
[58:02] we have the ability to do those things
[58:05] that remind us of those relationships,
[58:07] which is why it's problematic. It's a
[58:10] memory.
[58:11] Um now, if [clears throat] we didn't
[58:12] know better,
[58:14] I don't know you have this wound.
[58:16] I only see your defense against it, and
[58:19] your defense is really threatening.
[58:21] So, I respond in a threatening way,
[58:24] which consolidates your vulnerability
[58:27] and increases your defense.
[58:30] And right, and makes you certain that
[58:32] I'm a dangerous character.
[58:34] Well, you're doing the same with me.
[58:37] You're have You happen to be poking me
[58:39] in a core vulnerable place.
[58:42] Um and that I can't do anything other
[58:44] than react.
[58:46] Um you don't know this, um because the
[58:48] way I'm responding to you feels
[58:50] threatening, of course. Therefore, you
[58:52] are going to protect yourself from me,
[58:54] and therein lies the problem. We're
[58:56] going to make each other worse,
[58:59] naturally.
[59:00] Cuz you're not paid to sit there and
[59:03] just think about what I'm doing.
[59:06] You're going to take it personally.
[59:07] Now, if you're a therapist, you can't do
[59:09] that, right? I have to sit and I have to
[59:10] sit with my feelings and not you know,
[59:12] not jump up and act out.
[59:15] I have, [clears throat]
[59:16] but I regret that. But, you know, it's
[59:18] you know, we're human. But but we're
[59:20] paid to do otherwise, right? Your
[59:22] partner isn't. And and therefore, we're
[59:24] more likely to make each other worse.
[59:27] Because it's a misunderstanding.
[59:29] You can't know why I'm doing this thing
[59:31] threatening thing and you don't need to
[59:33] know because you're feeling threatened.
[59:35] So,
[59:37] knowledge is power. Understanding how
[59:40] the brain works, understanding how these
[59:41] systems work, understanding your partner
[59:43] inside out, being an expert on your
[59:45] partner,
[59:46] which if your survival mattered to you
[59:49] and you thought about it,
[59:51] you better know how to restore your
[59:54] partner back to
[59:56] uh you know, level thinking and level uh
[59:59] performance because your life does
[1:00:01] depend on them. They go down,
[1:00:04] you're in the foxhole together, you're
[1:00:05] dead.
[1:00:06] So, you better know the animal you
[1:00:07] picked and how to how to work with this
[1:00:09] animal, be an animal whisperer this one.
[1:00:12] They're not you.
[1:00:14] And you're going to need them if you are
[1:00:16] a team.
[1:00:17] It matters if they go down and you
[1:00:19] better know how, just the right way, to
[1:00:23] pick them back up or you you you're this
[1:00:26] is yeah.
[1:00:27] Again, what what's the point?
[1:00:30] So, this is an orientation and
[1:00:33] couples just not not oriented towards
[1:00:36] this being a survival team.
[1:00:38] But it is. You just haven't been tested
[1:00:41] yet.
[1:00:42] Life has not thrown you that curve.
[1:00:44] You're not in
[1:00:46] Bosnia during that time. Uh you're not
[1:00:49] in Ukraine and Russia now. You're not in
[1:00:53] Gaza. Uh
[1:00:54] or you know, right? Uh the whole
[1:00:57] different orientation there. They know
[1:00:59] what's important. It's uh to protect
[1:01:02] each other, right? Uh we don't.
[1:01:06] We're asleep.
[1:01:07] Um that's the denial system cuz it would
[1:01:10] get in the way if we always had to plan
[1:01:12] for this.
[1:01:13] But
[1:01:15] the planning for this starts with the
[1:01:17] building blocks of reining each other in
[1:01:20] and being safe and secure and
[1:01:23] and predicting and planning and
[1:01:25] preventing
[1:01:27] future problems by predicting them ahead
[1:01:29] of time, that does the same thing. You
[1:01:31] don't have to build, you know, together
[1:01:34] a bomb shelter.
[1:01:36] Uh that's not what I'm talking about.
[1:01:38] I'm talking about
[1:01:39] that
[1:01:40] that the two of you know how to build
[1:01:42] structure, how to how to reform this to
[1:01:45] your liking.
[1:01:46] You just have to know how to do it and
[1:01:48] practice it.
[1:01:49] And it has to be predicated on
[1:01:51] principles that cannot be violated.
[1:01:54] >> Jared, have you ever considered you
[1:01:56] might have a drinking problem?
[1:01:57] >> I don't consider a lot, Chris.
[1:01:59] >> Well, you drank an entire case of
[1:02:00] Athletic Brewing Co. last night.
[1:02:02] >> But they're non-alcoholic.
[1:02:03] >> And that's not a problem?
[1:02:05] >> Sorry, man. I kept chugging waiting for
[1:02:07] the regret to creep in. Never happened.
[1:02:09] >> Didn't you end up going home with that
[1:02:10] chick with the lazy eye?
[1:02:12] >> I didn't seem lazy to me.
[1:02:15] >> [snorts]
[1:02:15] >> See, most people, like Jared, don't
[1:02:17] actually want to change what they drink.
[1:02:18] They just don't want the next day to be
[1:02:20] a complete write-off, which is why I'm
[1:02:21] such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co.
[1:02:23] They make the best NA brews on the
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[1:02:53] >> If you could give
[1:02:55] people, couples,
[1:02:57] the
[1:02:59] most important big movers, the most
[1:03:01] important principles that they should
[1:03:03] follow to create these secure
[1:03:05] functioning relationships. That's what
[1:03:07] everybody wants, right?
[1:03:09] >> Yes.
[1:03:09] >> The thing that is the most important,
[1:03:11] it's going to help us steel ourselves
[1:03:13] against the woes of the world and the
[1:03:16] slings and arrows that are going to come
[1:03:18] from outside of it.
[1:03:20] What are the things that people should
[1:03:21] focus on in order to do that?
[1:03:24] >> On a on a more focused level, I'm going
[1:03:27] to give you two, see.
[1:03:29] On focused level, start now.
[1:03:32] If you do nothing else,
[1:03:33] uh make sure that you repair to the
[1:03:36] other person's satisfaction. See their
[1:03:39] face relax. If they're not relaxed,
[1:03:41] you're not done yet.
[1:03:42] Repair, fix, make it right, make amends
[1:03:45] probably immediately or within 30
[1:03:48] minutes.
[1:03:49] Make that a habit, make that
[1:03:52] a law, make that what must happen.
[1:03:56] Otherwise, you're going to die sooner. I
[1:03:58] guarantee you because of the the
[1:04:00] cortical steroids you produce in that
[1:04:02] stress when there's a breach. You're not
[1:04:05] doing yourself any favors.
[1:04:07] And [clears throat] you're setting the
[1:04:08] other person up for and yourself for um
[1:04:11] long-term damage. And that's you're not
[1:04:13] going to want that.
[1:04:15] So, fix fix it right away. I don't care
[1:04:17] how you do that. If you can do nothing
[1:04:19] else, you can say to each other, uh you
[1:04:22] know, I hate you right now, but we're
[1:04:24] okay.
[1:04:26] It turns out that the we're okay is is
[1:04:29] is sufficient
[1:04:32] to be able to sleep through the night or
[1:04:34] be able to get through your day cuz I
[1:04:36] promise you if you don't do that, you're
[1:04:38] you are not at your optimum performance
[1:04:41] level. You can't be. Uh you won't be
[1:04:43] unless you're paying attention.
[1:04:45] So, you know what's good for yourself.
[1:04:48] You just settle the existential question
[1:04:50] that is there when there's a breach in
[1:04:53] relationship when we fight,
[1:04:55] will this relationship exist tomorrow?
[1:04:58] Are we okay? If you can just do that,
[1:05:01] minimum, you're better than most.
[1:05:04] And
[1:05:05] my wife and I have a
[1:05:07] a rule.
[1:05:08] We can go to bed angry, but we have to
[1:05:10] at least touch toes.
[1:05:12] And that's harder than you might think.
[1:05:14] But um but that's been practiced and
[1:05:17] there's an immediate reward for doing
[1:05:19] the right thing when it's the hardest
[1:05:20] thing to do. And that is your
[1:05:21] self-esteem goes right up.
[1:05:24] Because you know you did the hardest
[1:05:26] thing, the right thing when it was the
[1:05:28] hardest thing to do. We're already doing
[1:05:30] the easiest things.
[1:05:31] That's what we're already doing, but
[1:05:33] that's not a good line.
[1:05:35] A purpose-centered life
[1:05:37] is decided ahead of time
[1:05:40] that this is right, best,
[1:05:43] or good, so say us both.
[1:05:46] And we're going to we're going to plan
[1:05:48] to do this for when we
[1:05:50] actually
[1:05:51] do not feel like doing it at all.
[1:05:54] Uh even when I hate you, I still do this
[1:05:56] beautiful thing. Even when I hate you, I
[1:05:58] still don't do this destructive thing,
[1:06:00] right?
[1:06:01] That's a good life. That's the only
[1:06:03] thing that's ever been a good life. That
[1:06:06] is reliable. That earns love. That earns
[1:06:08] respect as daily we're proving to each
[1:06:10] other.
[1:06:11] We stick to our principles. We show each
[1:06:14] other and when we fail, we fall on our
[1:06:15] swords, beg for forgiveness, and make it
[1:06:17] right. Simple.
[1:06:19] Um
[1:06:20] and this the other thing is design your
[1:06:23] relationship. Start with who are you,
[1:06:26] shared power, shared authority,
[1:06:27] something other than that. You've got to
[1:06:29] be explicit and you got to think ahead.
[1:06:31] Yeah, I'd like you to be in charge. I
[1:06:33] like it.
[1:06:34] I Okay. Remember that uh if uh if he's
[1:06:38] in charge, you don't get the final say
[1:06:41] on anything.
[1:06:42] You understand that, right? Unless you
[1:06:44] build that in somehow.
[1:06:46] Right? And so
[1:06:48] >> [clears throat]
[1:06:48] >> you just have to
[1:06:49] be adult and a grown-up because yours
[1:06:52] your individual lives are now your own,
[1:06:55] not your parents.
[1:06:57] And this and as a couple, you're on your
[1:06:59] own. You're the leaders here. There is
[1:07:01] nobody else. No therapist, right? I'm
[1:07:05] I'm not going to define your
[1:07:06] relationship. You have to. It's your
[1:07:08] gig. You can have it any way you want,
[1:07:11] and believe me, people have some very
[1:07:13] strange and
[1:07:14] novel arrangements, right? Fine.
[1:07:18] They're great because they fully agree,
[1:07:21] they've worked it out, no problem.
[1:07:24] But they it's all explicit. It's never
[1:07:27] implied.
[1:07:28] Right? Because
[1:07:30] if it's implied,
[1:07:32] I'm going to abuse that that that
[1:07:35] reality, right? It has to be explicit
[1:07:37] and agreed upon
[1:07:38] like a blood oath.
[1:07:40] Because
[1:07:42] this is this really is about our lives
[1:07:45] depend on on adhering to this. We have
[1:07:48] to have to drink the Kool-Aid and buy
[1:07:49] into it because we're in we're expected
[1:07:51] to come through when we least want you,
[1:07:52] and that's going to happen for sure.
[1:07:55] >> Awesome. Stan Tatkin, ladies and
[1:07:56] gentlemen. Stan, I think you're
[1:07:58] brilliant. I think your work rules.
[1:07:59] Where should people go to check out
[1:08:00] everything you do?
[1:08:02] >> All right. The PACT Institute is the
[1:08:04] place to go to. t h e p a c t
[1:08:07] institute.com.
[1:08:09] If you're a couple, there's a couple
[1:08:11] area
[1:08:12] that is
[1:08:13] devoted to you, workshops and retreats,
[1:08:17] materials. And then if you're a
[1:08:19] clinician,
[1:08:21] that's how this started. Um
[1:08:23] I we do trainings
[1:08:25] all over the world, and you can find
[1:08:27] that information there as well. Oh,
[1:08:29] and there's a new product called the
[1:08:30] Win-Win Couple. First time we've done a
[1:08:32] filming on how to work together
[1:08:35] collaboratively
[1:08:37] under stress.
[1:08:39] And that video is now now available on
[1:08:41] the website. They go to
[1:08:43] the PACT site.
[1:08:44] >> Okay. Stan, I appreciate you. Until next
[1:08:47] time.
[1:08:47] >> Chris, you're terrific. I wish every
[1:08:49] interviewer is like you.
[1:08:51] >> That's what I wanted to hear.
[1:08:52] >> All right. Thank you.
[1:08:54] >> Congratulations. You made it to the end
[1:08:55] of a podcast episode without dying. Now,
[1:08:58] here's another one.
[1:09:00] Go on.
[1:09:01] >> [music]
[1:09:01] >> Watch it.