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Inspiration

Stop Wasting Energy: Why People ResistChange and What Actually Works

Mel Robbins
Mel Robbins
Aug 27, 2026
8 min read
Watch · 5
You've had the conversation a hundred times. You know exactly what needs to happen: they should exercise more, eat better, stop the behavior that worries you. You've pushed, reminded, lectured, and hoped. And somehow you're still trapped in the same cycle—fighting, nagging, and watching them do nothing differently. The gap between knowing and doing isn't a character flaw or stubbornness you can shame away. It's neuroscience. Understanding why this gap exists, and what actually works instead, transforms everything: how you see difficult people, how you approach relationships, and how you finally stop wasting your energy on strategies that backfire.

Read · 7 sections

The Two Bodyguards Protecting Your Brain From Change

Before you can influence anyone else's behavior, you have to understand why your own brain resists change even when you desperately want it. Dr. Dolly Chugh, a behavioral scientist and NYU professor, frames this through a striking metaphor: your mind has two bodyguards whose job is to keep things stable and safe. These aren't obstacles to overcome harshly—they're protective systems doing exactly what they evolved to do.

The first bodyguard is energy. Your brain is operating at staggering capacity every second. In a single snap of the fingers, you process 11 million thoughts—the vast majority of them operating below conscious awareness. Your brain conserves energy by running as much as possible on autopilot. This is why you can drive home and suddenly realize you don't remember a single red light, street sign, or moment of the commute. Your brain successfully handled the entire journey without asking your conscious mind for help. This efficiency is a feature, not a bug.

Chugh distinguishes between what she calls "little T thoughts"—the 11 million subconscious processes—and "big T thoughts," the roughly 40 conscious thoughts you're actively aware of at any given moment. When someone tells you "just know better and do better," they're talking only to those 40 big T thoughts. But your habits, reflexes, and unconscious patterns operate in the realm of those 11 million little T thoughts. That's where the real resistance lives.

The second bodyguard is bigger and more powerful: ego, or identity, or whatever makes you feel like yourself. Research shows we value protecting our sense of self more than our favorite food, more than time with a friend. This isn't vanity; it's a fundamental need for coherence. When someone suggests you change something central to how you see yourself, that bodyguard springs into action to defend your identity.

Consider this example from Chugh: if you see yourself as kind and warm, but you accidentally blow off a neighbor while on a work call—truly not seeing them despite their wave—and they later describe you as standoffish, it bothers you deeply. Not because you care what one neighbor thinks, but because their characterization contradicts your core identity. Someone else whose identity isn't wrapped up in being perceived as friendly might not feel that sting at all. The identity bodyguard's job is to protect the story you tell yourself about who you are.

Why Your Advice Backfires and What to Ask Instead

Now apply this neuroscience to the people you love. When you tell someone to exercise because their doctor said so, or to eat healthier because you're worried about their weight, you're not appealing to logic. You're threatening one of their core needs: agency—the fundamental human need to be your own person, to not be told what to do.

Chugh explains that what looks like stubbornness or denial is actually their identity bodyguard firing up to defend autonomy. This is why nagging, lecturing, and logical argument so often backfire. They activate resistance instead of openness. The more you push, the more their system pushes back.

So what actually works? Before giving advice, ask yourself a simple question: Did they ask for this advice? This single filter changes everything. When you skip this step and offer unsolicited guidance, you're not being helpful—you're being invasive, even if your intentions are pure. The person receiving the advice experiences it as an intrusion on their autonomy, which makes their brain defensive before they even hear the substance of what you're saying.

If they didn't ask, the conversation needs to shift entirely. Chugh describes a powerful framework: the four-option question. When someone you love is in distress or struggling, instead of offering solutions, ask them what they actually need from you in that moment. Are they looking for you to listen and validate their experience? Do they want practical help? Are they processing something and need space to think it through? Or do they want your perspective, but only if they've given you permission to share it?

This question sounds like: "Right now, what would be most helpful for you?" or "What do you need from me in this moment?" It honors their agency while keeping you connected. It also prevents the common mistake of assuming you know what someone needs—and offering the exact thing they don't want.

Small Words, Big Mistakes: How Adjectives Derail Connection

There's another trap Chugh identifies: the misuse of adjectives in difficult conversations. When you're frustrated with someone, it's tempting to reach for sweeping characterizations. "You're selfish." "You're lazy." "You're irresponsible." These words feel precise in the moment, but they're actually the least useful part of any feedback.

Why? Because adjectives attack identity. They're not describing a specific behavior; they're describing a person's essential nature. And when someone's identity bodyguard feels attacked, listening stops. Defensiveness takes over. The relationship itself becomes the issue, and the original problem disappears into the background noise of conflict.

Instead, Chugh recommends focusing on specific, observable behavior and its impact. Not "You're selfish," but "When you didn't check in yesterday, I felt worried." Not "You're irresponsible," but "The dishes piling up in the sink makes it harder for me to relax at home." This shift removes the identity threat while keeping the message clear. It's the difference between criticism and legitimate concern.

When Helping Someone Keeps Them Stuck

One of the most painful realizations in relationships is recognizing when your help has become harm. Sometimes, supporting someone through difficulty can actually disable them—keeping them dependent rather than capable. Chugh identifies this as a central problem in many relationships, especially between parents and adult children, or between partners where one person has slipped into a caretaking role.

The question becomes: at what point is my support creating learned helplessness? If you consistently rescue someone from consequences, solve their problems, or manage their life, you're inadvertently sending a message: "I don't believe you can handle this." Over time, they internalize that belief. Their own confidence erodes. They become less likely to try, because the neural pathway to dependence is now well-worn.

This is especially true when the person you're helping is exhausted or in pain. When someone's emotional resources are depleted, their capacity for change vanishes. Chugh emphasizes that recognizing when you're pushing someone who is already at their limit is crucial. At that point, the most loving thing you can do isn't more advice or more help—it's to step back and let them find their own way.

The Surprising Role of Unlearning

Change isn't just about learning something new; it's about unlearning what's no longer working. This distinction matters because it reframes the entire challenge. When Chugh talks about the gap between knowing and doing, she's pointing to a place where old neural pathways—habits, reflexes, automatic responses—are competing with new knowledge.

Your brain doesn't just discard old patterns when you learn something better. Both patterns coexist. The automatic response and the intentional one are both available, and under stress, fatigue, or emotional intensity, the automatic one usually wins. That's not failure; that's neurology. Unlearning means repeatedly practicing the new pattern until it becomes automatic too. It takes time, repetition, and patience—not just with others, but with yourself.

Three Things That Actually Help

Chugh identifies three evidence-based approaches that actually work when someone in your life is resistant to change:

First, stop pushing and start listening. Ask what they need. Honor their agency. This shifts the dynamic from adversarial to collaborative. They stop defending and start opening.

Second, model the change you want to see. People are far more influenced by what you do than by what you say. Show them, through your own behavior and without commentary, that change is possible. This removes the threat and provides a lived example.

Third, recognize when you're at the limit of influence. You cannot force change in another person. You can create conditions that make change easier, but ultimately, their transformation is their choice. Accepting this boundary is liberating—for them and for you.

Where to Go From Here

The path forward starts with yourself. Notice where you know better but don't do better. Recognize which of your identity bodyguards is most active—is it energy conservation or identity protection? Then, apply that self-awareness to the difficult relationships in your life. Before your next conversation with someone you've been trying to change, pause and ask: Did they ask for my advice? What do they actually need from me right now?

These small shifts in approach—asking before advising, describing behavior instead of character, honoring autonomy instead of demanding compliance—won't instantly transform anyone. But they will transform you. You'll feel lighter, less invested in outcomes you can't control. And paradoxically, you'll be far more influential when you stop trying so hard to influence.

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Transcript

[0:00] Today,

[0:01] >> [music]

[0:01] >> on the Mel Robbins podcast, how to deal

[0:03] with people who won't change with NYU

[0:07] Stern School of Business Professor Dr.

[0:09] Dolly Chugh.

[0:11] She'll teach you how to stop wasting

[0:13] your energy and do this instead.

[0:17] Please help me welcome Dr. Dolly Chugh

[0:20] to the Mel Robbins podcast.

[0:22] >> I'm so thrilled to be here, Mel. Thank

[0:23] you for having me.

[0:24] >> I'm thrilled that you're here, too, and

[0:27] I know that this topic is going to

[0:30] resonate with the person who's listening

[0:32] right now, and it's going to be

[0:35] incredibly helpful.

[0:36] Could you start, Dr. Chugh, by telling

[0:39] the person who's here with us

[0:42] what could change about their life and

[0:44] their relationships if they take

[0:46] everything to heart that you're about to

[0:48] teach us about dealing with the people

[0:50] in your life that are not changing?

[0:53] >> You're going to feel lighter.

[0:55] You're going to feel more hopeful.

[0:58] You're going to see a path because

[1:00] you're going to have tools that will

[1:02] help you both when you're trying to make

[1:04] changes in yourself [snorts] and when

[1:06] you're trying to make changes in other

[1:07] people.

[1:09] You're going to realize you're not alone

[1:11] in those moments, those messy human

[1:15] moments.

[1:16] And you're going to drop some of the

[1:18] frustration that you have and the

[1:20] expectations that you have of other

[1:22] people.

[1:23] >> I love that. I want to feel more free.

[1:26] I want to feel lighter. That sounds

[1:28] fantastic because the people in my life

[1:30] drive me crazy. And the other thing is

[1:32] is I know that I drive the people in my

[1:33] life crazy.

[1:34] >> Right.

[1:35] >> You know, there's that famous quote,

[1:37] when you know better, you do better.

[1:40] Maya Angelou said that. And I think

[1:42] that's true when you look backwards at

[1:44] the lessons that you've learned the hard

[1:46] way.

[1:46] >> Mhm.

[1:47] >> But when I think about myself,

[1:49] I will admit that I often know better.

[1:52] >> [laughter]

[1:53] >> But I don't do better. And your research

[1:57] really sits at the heart of knowing

[2:00] better,

[2:01] but we don't do better.

[2:03] Why is it, Dr. Chug, that we can know

[2:07] better? We know we should not be

[2:08] drinking tonight. We know we should go

[2:10] to the gym this morning. We know that we

[2:13] shouldn't spend money on that thing that

[2:15] we don't need because we're supposed to

[2:17] be saving for somebody. We know we

[2:19] shouldn't snap at our kids, but we don't

[2:22] do it.

[2:22] >> There's two key insights that really

[2:26] helped me from the science of human

[2:28] behavior here.

[2:30] And I like to think of these insights as

[2:33] understanding our mind as having

[2:35] bodyguards.

[2:36] >> Okay, hold on. Our mind has bodyguards?

[2:39] >> has these two big bodyguards that are

[2:42] keeping out change and keeping out

[2:45] growth. And here is what those two

[2:46] bodyguards are all about. I call I call

[2:48] one of them energy and one of them ego.

[2:51] Energy bodyguard is trying to

[2:55] preserve my energy. They're trying to

[2:58] make my life as easy as possible.

[3:01] And that means that a lot of what we do

[3:03] is on autopilot. Let me give you an

[3:05] example. I'm going to snap my fingers.

[3:09] And in that snap of a fingers,

[3:12] you just had 11 million thoughts.

[3:16] >> Wait, what?

[3:17] >> Right.

[3:17] >> 11 million?

[3:18] >> Yes. There's There's There's a study

[3:20] that says

[3:22] that there is so much of our mind on

[3:24] autopilot, like for example, let's say

[3:26] you had a long day and now you're

[3:28] heading home, you're driving or you're

[3:31] taking a subway or a bus or you're

[3:32] riding the bike or you're you're

[3:34] walking. And you get home, you walk in

[3:36] the door, and you realize you don't

[3:38] remember anything about that commute

[3:40] home. You don't remember red lights or

[3:42] green lights or did you get a seat on

[3:44] the bus? You just did it cuz you've done

[3:47] it a million times.

[3:48] >> know what I think is I literally say to

[3:49] myself, "Oh my god, what just happened?

[3:51] Where was I?"

[3:52] >> Right.

[3:53] >> But the good news is is that's your body

[3:56] and your brain doing everything it

[3:57] should conserving energy. That's the

[4:00] bodyguard putting you on autopilot

[4:02] letting you do the things you know how

[4:04] to do without having to think too hard

[4:06] about it.

[4:07] >> Okay, got it.

[4:07] >> So I call those little T thoughts not

[4:10] cap not capital T thoughts, right? And

[4:12] even right now the fact that you and I

[4:14] can understand each other that we sort

[4:16] of know which direction to face it we

[4:18] can detect the temperature in the room

[4:20] and the feeling of our clothes on us but

[4:22] we're not necessarily big T thinking

[4:25] about it. So in that snap of the fingers

[4:27] 11 million

[4:29] little T thoughts. They say maybe like

[4:32] 40 big T thoughts actual thoughts like

[4:35] you're thinking what should I say next

[4:37] you know, is this microphone the correct

[4:39] distance all those are big T thoughts

[4:41] I'm not

[4:42] >> And these are all happening

[4:43] simultaneously and I'm not even really

[4:44] aware of it.

[4:45] >> We're not even aware of it because

[4:46] that's the brilliance of being a human

[4:48] being is that we are able to do that and

[4:51] that's because we have this mental

[4:52] bodyguard that's protecting our energy

[4:55] and some people refer to it as our

[4:57] unconscious mind is doing a lot of the

[4:59] work. So when we talk about if we go

[5:01] back to the question of you know, why

[5:03] when I know something don't I do it?

[5:06] >> Yes.

[5:07] >> Sometimes knowing is talking about those

[5:10] capital T thoughts right the 40 not the

[5:13] 11 million but there's still a whole lot

[5:15] going on in our unconscious mind and our

[5:18] habits and our reflexes

[5:20] that are going to keep us in a space

[5:22] that isn't closing that gap between

[5:25] knowing and doing.

[5:26] >> Okay.

[5:27] >> So that's one thing.

[5:28] >> Energy.

[5:29] >> Energy.

[5:29] >> Yes.

[5:30] >> There's a second bodyguard and this

[5:31] one's even bigger.

[5:34] This bodyguard is trying to protect call

[5:37] it our ego call it our self call it our

[5:40] identity.

[5:41] It's whatever it is that makes us

[5:45] feel like the person we mean to be.

[5:47] There's a study that looked at how much

[5:50] we value having affirmation, having sort

[5:53] of validation of these identities we

[5:56] care about, whatever they are, more than

[5:59] your favorite food, more than time with

[6:02] a friend, more than your favorite sex

[6:04] act. We really, really like to protect

[6:09] our identity and our ego, whatever that

[6:12] means.

[6:12] >> So, can you give me an example?

[6:13] >> Let's say that

[6:15] I consider myself like some an identity

[6:18] I care about is being considered kind

[6:20] and warm. That's that's how I define

[6:22] being a good person.

[6:24] And I um am walking around my

[6:27] neighborhood one day, it's beautiful out

[6:29] and I think, "You know what? Let me take

[6:31] this work call. It's, you know, audio

[6:33] only. Let me just put the little AirPod

[6:35] in. I'm working from home today and do

[6:37] this call while I'm walking." It's an

[6:39] important work call. I'm listening

[6:41] intently. I unknowingly

[6:44] blow off a neighbor.

[6:46] I'm in my work call. My little AirPod's

[6:48] tucked in my ear. They probably don't

[6:49] see it. They wave.

[6:51] And I hear later that they reported that

[6:54] I blew them off to someone else. They

[6:57] tell other neighbors that "Oh, there she

[7:00] is, being a bit standoffish."

[7:02] >> Yep.

[7:03] >> That bothers me a lot.

[7:06] A lot. Now, there are other people whose

[7:08] identity isn't as tied up in being seen

[7:10] as kind and warm and friendly and that

[7:12] kind of neighbor that says hello to

[7:13] everybody. They may not care.

[7:16] But for me,

[7:17] that really bothers me.

[7:20] So,

[7:21] we've got these two bodyguards that are

[7:23] going to always want to push away

[7:26] anything that suggests changing what

[7:28] we're doing.

[7:29] >> Okay.

[7:30] >> Or growing into being someone else if it

[7:32] threatens our energy or our ego in the

[7:36] moment.

[7:36] >> So, you just explained to me why the

[7:38] people that I love, who I'm I'm about,

[7:41] don't take better care of themselves.

[7:42] Okay, so for example, it takes a lot of

[7:45] energy

[7:46] >> Yeah.

[7:46] >> to lift weights,

[7:49] to eat healthy,

[7:50] >> Yeah.

[7:51] >> to go for a walk, when especially when

[7:53] you haven't.

[7:53] >> Right.

[7:54] >> And if your ego and something that you

[7:57] value is I'm in control with me, nobody

[8:00] tells me what to do.

[8:01] >> Yes.

[8:01] >> My desire for you to now lift weights

[8:04] cuz your doctor said so or to start

[8:06] walking cuz I think it's important for

[8:08] you to prevent dementia or for you to

[8:11] eat healthy cuz I'm worried about the

[8:12] weight you're putting on, I'm now

[8:14] threatening one of your core values,

[8:17] which is I'm my own person, don't tell

[8:19] me what to do.

[8:20] Wow.

[8:21] >> You just nailed it. And that's that's

[8:22] called agency. It's a It's a fundamental

[8:25] human need that I'm my own person, don't

[8:27] tell me what to do. Now, can you do that

[8:29] to yourself cuz I often feel like

[8:31] >> I'm such a whether you call it control

[8:34] freak or rebel,

[8:36] >> Yeah.

[8:36] >> that I even rebel against my own

[8:39] attempts to make [laughter] myself.

[8:42] >> Yeah.

[8:43] >> You know, like you know what I'm saying?

[8:44] Like nobody I'm the world's worst

[8:46] employee because I hate being told what

[8:48] to do.

[8:48] >> Right.

[8:49] >> Unless I understand why I need to do it.

[8:51] >> Yep.

[8:52] >> And even when I try to tell myself what

[8:55] to do,

[8:56] >> Right.

[8:56] >> I notice I negotiate with myself and

[8:59] push back. And I think you just

[9:01] explained why.

[9:02] >> I think that's right. I think that's

[9:03] right.

[9:03] >> the bodyguard of the ego. Nobody tells

[9:05] Mel Robbins what to do, not even Mel

[9:07] Robbins.

[9:09] Can you show me, Dr. Chug, this gap

[9:13] between knowing

[9:15] better but not doing better?

[9:18] >> All right, Mel, I'm going to ask for

[9:19] your help with this. I'm going to I'm

[9:20] going to pull out a little prop. You

[9:21] ready?

[9:22] >> Okay, got it.

[9:22] >> Okay. All right, so

[9:25] what I'm going to show you here is this

[9:27] poster board has uh words written in

[9:32] different color fonts. You might notice

[9:34] that there's red, there's orange,

[9:36] there's green, pink, blue, and we've got

[9:38] about

[9:39] >> 15 words. And what I want you to do is

[9:42] I'm going to point to a word, and you

[9:44] just tell me what color it's in.

[9:46] >> Okay.

[9:47] >> All right, Mel, you got it. Go.

[9:48] >> Red. Orange. I'm just doing color,

[9:51] right? Green, pink, blue.

[9:54] Green, blue, red, yellow, green.

[9:58] >> Crushing it.

[9:58] >> Blue, yellow, pink, green, orange.

[10:01] >> Oh, you did so well.

[10:02] >> Now, here's what I want to point out to

[10:03] the person listening.

[10:04] The word is the same as the color. So,

[10:07] she's pointing to a

[10:09] the first word, the word is red, but

[10:11] it's also red.

[10:12] >> Yeah.

[10:12] >> When you pointed to the second, the word

[10:14] is orange, and the color of the word is

[10:16] also orange. Okay. Now, what's

[10:17] happening?

[10:17] >> you're catching on here, Mel, because

[10:19] I've now, like you, I'm flipping the

[10:22] chart, and

[10:23] >> me just tell the person listening, every

[10:25] word

[10:26] is a color,

[10:28] but the actual color that the word is

[10:32] written in is different from the word.

[10:34] So, she's about to point to the word

[10:35] green, but it's actually printed in the

[10:38] color orange.

[10:39] >> Exactly. And I want to point out before

[10:41] you do it, Mel, that right now, what you

[10:43] just did was you were able to narrate to

[10:46] me exactly what we're doing. So, that's

[10:48] the knowing.

[10:50] >> Okay, so I know know. Okay.

[10:52] >> And and do. So, we you just you know

[10:55] what we're doing.

[10:56] >> Yes.

[10:56] >> Let's see if you can do it.

[10:57] >> Okay.

[10:59] Uh

[11:00] This is like a brain scram.

[11:02] >> Oh, it's all right.

[11:03] >> Wait, am I reading the word or telling

[11:04] you the color?

[11:05] >> You're You're telling me the color.

[11:07] I know.

[11:08] >> You can do it. Try hard.

[11:09] >> Wait, I'm telling you the color?

[11:10] >> Tell me the color.

[11:11] >> Of the word.

[11:12] >> The The color of the font

[11:14] >> Is orange the right answer?

[11:16] >> Yes.

[11:16] >> Oh god, even though the word is green.

[11:18] Okay.

[11:18] >> Yes.

[11:20] >> Red.

[11:21] >> Good.

[11:22] >> Pink.

[11:22] >> Yes.

[11:23] >> Uh

[11:24] yellow. Oh, uh blue.

[11:28] Orange.

[11:30] Blue.

[11:31] Oh.

[11:32] Red.

[11:34] Green.

[11:35] Orange.

[11:38] >> Pink.

[11:39] >> Yes.

[11:39] >> Green, blue, yellow, red. Okay, my brain

[11:42] all of a sudden went like it got it.

[11:45] >> Right. By the last color.

[11:46] >> Right. I was not faking that, by the

[11:48] way.

[11:48] >> So, Mel, what you just did is called the

[11:50] Stroop test.

[11:52] >> Stroop? Like strap and poop as one

[11:54] thing? Stroop?

[11:55] >> Okay. That's a good way to remember it.

[11:57] >> And why did you show us that and what

[12:00] does it have to do with change?

[12:01] >> What you were trying to do is take two

[12:04] things that happen really quickly for

[12:05] you. One of them is detecting color.

[12:08] >> Yes.

[12:08] >> And one of them is reading. So, those

[12:11] two effortless activities were were no

[12:14] longer effortless because they

[12:16] conflicted with each other. They

[12:18] contradicted each other. So, what I

[12:20] asked you to do in that moment was

[12:22] unlearn reading.

[12:23] >> Whoa.

[12:25] And what you experienced

[12:28] when being asked to do something that

[12:30] you have to unlearn.

[12:31] >> Mhm.

[12:32] >> And I bet as you were watching on

[12:33] YouTube, you felt the same thing as I

[12:34] felt this internal friction and

[12:37] resistance.

[12:37] >> Exactly.

[12:38] >> And

[12:40] that's always there

[12:43] whenever I have to do something that

[12:44] I've either never done before or I don't

[12:46] want to. Whether it's getting off the

[12:48] couch or putting the phone down

[12:51] >> That's right.

[12:51] >> or

[12:53] trying something I've never tried

[12:55] before. I feel that same

[12:58] >> That's right, because that's what

[12:59] unlearning feels like. That's what

[13:00] change feels like. That's what growth

[13:02] feels like. Unlearning is a two-step

[13:04] process, cuz first I've got to let go of

[13:07] the thing I already know how to do.

[13:09] And then I've got to learn the new

[13:11] thing. And so, when we're asking other

[13:13] people to change,

[13:15] I'm not saying we shouldn't ask for that

[13:17] and that we shouldn't hold people

[13:19] accountable, especially if their actions

[13:21] are hurting us.

[13:23] Absolutely.

[13:24] But

[13:26] the empathy that we can have for what

[13:29] we're asking of them is going to go a

[13:31] long way in that moment.

[13:32] >> Mhm. Because we

[13:34] know how hard it is for us to change,

[13:36] but we just assume other people can do

[13:37] it like that.

[13:38] >> Totally. We

[13:39] >> And that if they don't do it like that,

[13:41] they're a jerk.

[13:42] >> We want grace for our own mistakes and

[13:46] learning curve, and we want

[13:48] accountability for everyone else's.

[13:51] >> My god, it's so I'm so guilty of that.

[13:53] >> Okay, I'm going to put this visual away.

[13:56] >> Super cool. Thank you for bringing that.

[13:58] >> Absolutely.

[13:59] >> So, what is the biggest mistake

[14:03] that you make when you know what you

[14:07] should be doing, but you're still not

[14:10] doing it?

[14:10] >> That we forget that you can't learn from

[14:12] a mistake you're still defending.

[14:16] >> Oh, wait. What do you mean by that?

[14:18] >> That

[14:20] we get in a space

[14:22] of trying to prove ourselves rather than

[14:25] trying to improve ourselves.

[14:28] >> Hold on. Did you hear that? She said we

[14:31] get into a space where we try to prove

[14:33] ourselves instead of trying to improve

[14:38] ourselves.

[14:38] >> Right.

[14:39] >> Oh my gosh.

[14:42] I do that.

[14:44] I can think of a million examples where

[14:46] I got very defensive.

[14:47] >> Me, too.

[14:48] >> Proving why this is too hard or why I

[14:50] couldn't follow through tonight or why

[14:52] >> Me, too.

[14:54] >> We get into a space

[14:56] of proving ourselves instead of trying

[14:58] to improve ourselves.

[15:00] >> And by the way, Mel, the people we're

[15:02] trying to prove ourselves to are

[15:04] sometimes other people and defending,

[15:07] but sometimes it's ourselves. It's why

[15:09] didn't I get that right? Why didn't I

[15:11] know how to do that? Why am I so bad at

[15:14] this? Why can't I be as good as

[15:17] so-and-so at it? Why isn't my life like

[15:20] other person's?

[15:21] >> Mhm.

[15:22] How do you get out of that trap?

[15:24] >> One thing I like to say is that when I

[15:27] just say I study the psychology of good

[15:29] people, it's a little bit of uh gotcha

[15:34] because

[15:36] my work focuses on helping people let go

[15:40] of being good people. Whatever that

[15:42] means to them. Going to the gym, being

[15:44] nice to neighbors, whatever it is

[15:47] that you need to let go of it in order

[15:50] to become better people.

[15:52] >> What does that mean? Cuz aren't we

[15:53] supposed to be good people?

[15:54] >> Of course we are. And the problem is as

[15:57] soon as we decide we're a good person,

[15:59] we're trying to prove it.

[16:02] Instead of trying to improve towards it.

[16:04] And this game never ends. Life goes on

[16:08] day after day throwing new challenges,

[16:10] new curveballs at us. Even if you

[16:12] thought you did it today, you crushed it

[16:14] today, tomorrow's a new day.

[16:16] And so getting in a space where we

[16:19] realize this is an ongoing process for

[16:22] ourself and for other people. We're not

[16:24] trying to prove we've already figured it

[16:26] out. We're trying to improve on an

[16:28] ongoing basis. We're not trying to see

[16:30] ourself as good people.

[16:32] >> Mhm.

[16:32] >> Especially things that are kind of got

[16:34] some moral charge to it like um are you

[16:38] nice to your children? Are you a good

[16:40] parent? Like those things have a lot of

[16:42] moral charge to them and we feel like we

[16:44] should just know how to do it and you

[16:47] should just know how to do it.

[16:50] That's not good enough. These are skills

[16:55] and skills require practice and

[16:57] improvement. So, good people things we

[16:59] tend to view as like it's a belief you

[17:02] should have. It's a value you should

[17:04] have. This This is how can you not know

[17:06] how to do that? How can you Why do you

[17:07] keep interrupting me? If you cared, you

[17:09] wouldn't interrupt me. That's like a you

[17:12] Mhm. as opposed to you're trying to get

[17:15] better at it and it's a skill that

[17:17] you're working on.

[17:18] >> Well, I can see, certainly, how I hold

[17:22] this over other people's head.

[17:23] >> Yeah.

[17:24] >> That if you're not doing the things that

[17:26] I wish you would do, you're not a good

[17:28] person.

[17:29] >> Mhm.

[17:30] >> But if I turn it on myself first, cuz

[17:33] we're going to get to other people, and

[17:34] I think, okay,

[17:37] and I invite you as you're listening to

[17:39] really think about

[17:41] what have you held over your own head

[17:44] >> Mhm.

[17:46] >> in judgement,

[17:47] where you believe that if you got to

[17:51] every email today, you're a good person.

[17:53] Right. If your

[17:55] laundry is done, you're a good person.

[17:57] If your house is clean, you're a good

[17:59] person. If you can both be at work and

[18:02] volunteer at the school and take care of

[18:05] your parents, you're a good person.

[18:07] And you're saying that even trying to,

[18:11] quote, be a good person by some standard

[18:14] you've set is a recipe for feeling

[18:17] miserable about yourself, and you want

[18:19] us to switch our mindset to, "No, no,

[18:21] no, I'm improving all the time. I'm

[18:24] learning all the time. I'm doing the

[18:26] best I can all the time." Is that kind

[18:29] of more of the switch?

[18:30] >> That that's exactly it. So, the

[18:31] distinction I make is between being a

[18:33] good person and a goodish person.

[18:36] >> Okay.

[18:37] >> Being a good person is a static. You

[18:39] either are or you're not.

[18:41] >> Oh.

[18:42] >> A goodish person is someone who's always

[18:44] trying to get better. So,

[18:46] good person is trying to prove they're a

[18:48] good person, goodish person is

[18:50] constantly trying to improve. And so,

[18:52] the irony of it is even though goodish

[18:54] sounds like, "Okay, well, you're not as

[18:56] good as good,"

[18:57] goodish is actually better than good,

[18:59] because you're constantly getting

[19:00] better.

[19:01] >> And you're giving space for the days

[19:03] where you blow it.

[19:05] >> And you take ownership for it.

[19:07] >> Okay.

[19:07] >> So, there's a difference between giving

[19:08] space, like, let's say I I something

[19:11] that hurts someone. Let's say I use a

[19:13] term that I don't realize has some um

[19:16] offensive uh meaning or history to it,

[19:19] and I get called out on it.

[19:21] >> Yep.

[19:22] >> The idea here is not to let myself off

[19:23] the hook. Well, you know, they're too

[19:24] sensitive. Yeah. I'm goodish. You know,

[19:27] they're a little too sensitive. I'm

[19:28] sorry you know, you were so offended.

[19:30] The idea is for me to say, "Okay,

[19:32] there's something I didn't know. I'm

[19:34] going to own that I did some harm there

[19:37] that I didn't intend to."

[19:38] >> Yeah.

[19:39] >> It's not that I'm a bad person. It's

[19:42] that I didn't know, and now I'm going to

[19:44] learn, take ownership for that, and do

[19:46] better the next time. So, that ownership

[19:49] piece is really important. It's that I'm

[19:52] a goodish person who keeps trying to get

[19:54] better.

[19:55] And in doing that, I'm going to improve

[19:58] myself, not just prove myself.

[20:00] >> This is such a helpful framework

[20:03] because

[20:05] it really reveals to me, anyway, and

[20:08] probably to you as you're listening

[20:10] right now, how hard you are on yourself.

[20:12] >> Oh my gosh.

[20:13] >> And what impossible standards you hold

[20:16] yourself to.

[20:17] >> Right.

[20:18] >> And I would love to have you, Dr. Chu,

[20:21] just speak directly to the person

[20:24] who

[20:25] feels weary when you say constantly

[20:28] improving

[20:29] because there's a nuance to what you're

[20:31] saying. You're not saying you got to be

[20:34] constantly pushing yourself, constantly

[20:36] improving, constantly going to the gym,

[20:38] constantly trying to do better,

[20:40] constantly grinding it out because

[20:41] you're not doing enough.

[20:43] >> Right.

[20:44] >> It's a different

[20:47] mindset.

[20:48] >> Yeah.

[20:49] >> And I'd love to have you put that in

[20:51] context because

[20:53] I'd be willing to bet

[20:55] that

[20:57] the person that's listening and is

[20:59] making time to be with us right now is

[21:01] probably exhausted. They're trying very

[21:03] hard. They end the day feeling like they

[21:05] didn't do enough.

[21:07] And as you're starting to have this

[21:09] realization like I am that wow, I'm like

[21:11] probably the hardest person in the world

[21:13] on myself cuz I'm trying to be a good

[21:14] person.

[21:15] >> Right.

[21:15] >> But I've defined this in a way that's

[21:17] impossible to reach.

[21:18] >> Exactly.

[21:19] >> So I always have at least 10 things at

[21:22] the end of the day that make me feel

[21:23] like a bad person cuz I didn't get to

[21:25] them.

[21:25] >> Right.

[21:26] >> So how

[21:28] do you want us to really think about

[21:31] what that means going from proving that

[21:33] you're good

[21:34] >> Right.

[21:34] >> and then annihilating yourself at the

[21:36] end of the day that I'm bad, I didn't do

[21:37] this and ah ah ah

[21:39] versus this change in your mindset that

[21:42] you're just constantly trying to

[21:44] improve. Goodish.

[21:46] >> Exactly. Well, I think you just nailed

[21:49] it in what you said. So what's

[21:51] exhausting and we're all so exhausted

[21:54] for a lot of reasons right now,

[21:56] but what's particularly exhausting

[21:59] is feeling like a failure.

[22:01] >> Mhm.

[22:02] >> It leads to what psychologists call

[22:04] learned helplessness.

[22:06] If you

[22:07] keep trying, keep trying, keep trying,

[22:09] don't feel like you get anywhere,

[22:11] eventually you just learn that you're

[22:12] helpless and you give up.

[22:16] What we're talking about here is

[22:19] yes, something that takes a little bit

[22:21] of effort, but it's less exhausting.

[22:24] Because what you're at the end of the

[22:26] day evaluating is have I grown, not have

[22:30] I succeeded.

[22:32] >> Mhm.

[22:32] >> And that's a very different question.

[22:35] It's what have I learned today, not what

[22:38] did I get right or wrong today.

[22:41] Um

[22:42] you know, what

[22:43] you know, there's a million things I am

[22:45] I'm sure I've done wrong as a parent,

[22:46] but one of the things that I I'm happy

[22:49] that my husband and I implemented early

[22:51] on with our kids is when they would

[22:53] bring home any sort of grade or test or

[22:57] paper from school, we we would

[23:00] try really hard not to react to the

[23:02] grade.

[23:03] All we would say is

[23:05] do you understand what you did?

[23:08] Do you Do you understand what you got

[23:09] wrong? Did you try your best?

[23:12] And I think those are actually great

[23:14] questions for us all to ask ourselves at

[23:16] the end of a day.

[23:17] >> Mhm.

[23:18] >> Not did I get it right or wrong, it's

[23:21] what did I learn and did I try my best?

[23:24] >> What did I learn and did I try my best?

[23:28] That's a beautiful thing. So, two

[23:31] questions to ask yourself at the end of

[23:33] every day, what did I learn and did I

[23:35] try my best?

[23:36] >> Yeah.

[23:36] >> One of the things that we hear from our

[23:39] audience in 194 countries is one of the

[23:42] things that people struggle with the

[23:44] most is this sense of I'm not good

[23:46] enough.

[23:46] >> Right.

[23:47] >> And when I listen to

[23:49] you and what you're teaching us

[23:52] and that we hold moral standards over

[23:55] ourselves

[23:56] >> Mhm.

[23:56] >> and we judge ourselves every day. Let's

[23:59] just be honest. As you're listening

[24:00] right now, think about how many times

[24:02] you sent a text and then you say, "I'm

[24:04] an idiot. I shouldn't have written

[24:05] that." Think about how many times you

[24:07] walk out of a party and then you judge

[24:10] yourself for what you're wearing.

[24:11] >> Right.

[24:11] >> Think about how you leave uh work at the

[24:14] end of the day and you tell yourself you

[24:16] didn't do enough and yet you didn't even

[24:18] give yourself credit for the 100 emails

[24:20] and Slack messages and Zoom meetings

[24:21] that you attended.

[24:22] >> Right.

[24:23] >> And we're constantly

[24:25] holding this judgment over ourselves.

[24:28] So, no wonder we don't feel good enough.

[24:30] >> Right.

[24:31] >> Here's what it's also making me realize.

[24:34] If I'm this judgy

[24:36] of myself

[24:37] >> Yeah.

[24:41] >> I'm now realizing how judgy and

[24:44] opinionated I am of other people.

[24:46] >> Sure.

[24:46] >> [laughter]

[24:47] >> And if I have a standard for what Mel

[24:50] Robbins needs to do every day to be a

[24:53] good person

[24:54] >> Mhm.

[24:54] >> can you imagine what the list looks like

[24:58] for what my husband Christopher Robins

[25:00] needs to do to be a good husband.

[25:02] >> Right. Right.

[25:03] >> If the list is impossibly long that I

[25:06] hold over my own head,

[25:07] >> Right.

[25:08] >> imagine how long that list is for my

[25:11] husband.

[25:11] >> I mean.

[25:12] >> And my kids.

[25:14] And the people I work with.

[25:15] >> Right.

[25:16] >> And the stranger in front of me.

[25:17] >> So, I mean, the question is how do we

[25:20] help others change?

[25:22] >> how you said help.

[25:23] >> Yeah.

[25:24] >> Cuz I'm trying to force, manipulate,

[25:26] control, bribe, whatever it takes.

[25:29] >> So, one of the things we talk about

[25:31] >> [laughter]

[25:32] >> I mean,

[25:33] I'm all for bribery.

[25:35] Um

[25:36] My my my most effective parenting

[25:39] technique to date in a couple of decades

[25:43] has been that I

[25:45] sing to my kids.

[25:47] They don't

[25:47] >> How is that effective?

[25:49] >> Because I'm a terrible singer and they

[25:50] really don't like it. So, if I'm saying

[25:53] do this, do that, nobody's listening,

[25:55] I'm not getting anyone's attention, and

[25:57] then I I I start singing You Are My

[25:59] Sunshine. I could do it for your

[26:00] audience, but you'd lose listeners.

[26:02] >> it.

[26:03] >> You are my sunshine. See, it's

[26:05] >> Oh my Now I want to pick up my stuff and

[26:07] clean my room. Like, anything, Mom, but

[26:09] stop.

[26:10] >> keep going till they do the thing.

[26:11] >> god, I love this.

[26:12] >> good?

[26:13] >> Why does that work?

[26:14] >> It's a little bit of a pull versus a

[26:16] push, right? So, a push is saying go

[26:19] clean your room. A pull is creating the

[26:22] conditions in which you want to go clean

[26:24] your room.

[26:24] >> Cuz they want to leave you.

[26:25] >> Yeah.

[26:27] Oh, wow. So, and this is this is a big

[26:29] this is a big

[26:30] >> more like a repel, honestly.

[26:31] >> be. Yeah, that's fair. It's fair. Um but

[26:34] the push versus pull distinction is a

[26:36] really important one with um the

[26:38] leadership classes I teach. That

[26:41] when we're trying to influence others,

[26:43] sometimes we do need to push and that

[26:45] means we're directing them, we are

[26:47] telling them, we are forcing them.

[26:51] That's a push technique and we see it in

[26:53] the workplace, we see it in our

[26:54] families. It has its place.

[26:58] We tend to overuse it, though.

[27:00] And so,

[27:02] um

[27:03] pull techniques are more about creating

[27:05] conditions under which people want to do

[27:07] it on their own.

[27:08] >> Okay.

[27:09] >> As you said earlier, where I am the boss

[27:11] of me. Um where I might be asking

[27:14] questions, or I might be being a

[27:17] sounding board for someone else to let

[27:20] them create their own plan, their own

[27:24] desire and purpose around the thing that

[27:27] I want them to do. That almost always

[27:30] takes longer.

[27:32] >> Always.

[27:33] >> Than push. However, if it works, it

[27:37] lasts longer, as well.

[27:39] Realistically,

[27:41] what

[27:43] can you do to help someone you love

[27:44] change?

[27:46] Realistically,

[27:50] you can

[27:53] model change,

[27:55] you can invite change,

[27:59] you can reward change,

[28:03] but you cannot make anyone change.

[28:08] Let me give an example of what I mean by

[28:09] model change, because I think it's an

[28:11] important one.

[28:13] There's a a a story that may or may not

[28:17] be true, but it's sort of taken on epic

[28:19] fable proportions.

[28:22] Mahatma Gandhi, who was one of the um

[28:26] leaders of the non-violence movement in

[28:29] India

[28:30] in the 1940s,

[28:33] he became seen as the the person that

[28:37] people would go to for wisdom. And in

[28:40] this fable that's told about him,

[28:42] he would receive people who would travel

[28:45] by foot hundreds of miles to come to him

[28:48] and ask for his wisdom.

[28:50] And one day this family came to him with

[28:52] their young child and said,

[28:55] "Uh Gandhiji, we

[28:57] have traveled a long way. We've waited a

[28:59] long time for our turn. And we need you

[29:02] to tell our son who's withering away, he

[29:06] must eat food and not just sugar. All he

[29:10] will eat is sugar."

[29:13] Gandhi listened to them.

[29:14] He heard their request. He nodded with

[29:17] understanding. And then he said, "Please

[29:20] come back in 2 weeks."

[29:23] Not the response they were looking for.

[29:25] They had traveled a long way. They had

[29:27] waited a long time. Their son is

[29:29] withering away.

[29:30] Wait 2 weeks? Why?

[29:33] But out of deference, they go back home.

[29:36] 2 weeks later, they make the long

[29:38] journey. They wait the long time for

[29:40] their turn. They arrive at his doorstep.

[29:44] He they say, "Now, please Gandhiji, will

[29:46] you help us with our son? He's withering

[29:48] away. He's only eating sugar."

[29:50] And Gandhiji said to them,

[29:53] "My son, you must stop eating sugar."

[29:57] Well, that seems like a bit of a

[30:00] buzzkill after all of that. And they say

[30:02] to him, "Thank you. Thank you. But

[30:05] with all due respect, why couldn't you

[30:06] say that 2 weeks ago?" And he said,

[30:09] "Because 2 weeks ago, I was still eating

[30:12] sugar."

[30:16] So, the first step

[30:18] when we realistically want to help

[30:20] someone change,

[30:21] is to think about what we can do

[30:24] ourselves to model change.

[30:26] >> Mhm.

[30:26] >> Now, that doesn't mean

[30:29] I'm not trying to add to our exhausted

[30:31] plate.

[30:32] I'm just trying to say, in all the work

[30:34] we're doing ourselves,

[30:36] can we make it visible to others that we

[30:39] know this is hard?

[30:41] And this is what we are with. So, if

[30:44] your partner's snapping at the kids, you

[30:46] keep telling them, "Stop snapping at the

[30:48] kids." And they keep snapping, they get

[30:50] defensive,

[30:52] what if you talked about

[30:54] the struggles you have sometimes with

[30:56] snapping at the kids? What if you

[30:57] mentioned that you noticed when you have

[31:00] a snack in the car before you come in

[31:03] to the house, it helps you take a

[31:05] moment.

[31:07] What if you talked about

[31:09] the the things that you've tried that

[31:12] haven't worked and how embarrassed you

[31:14] are by the fact that they haven't

[31:16] worked.

[31:18] >> That's a super helpful

[31:20] uh story and example.

[31:23] The second thing that you said that we

[31:24] could do is invite change. What does

[31:26] that look like? What's an example of

[31:27] inviting change?

[31:29] >> It's It's inviting means creating the

[31:32] conditions under which someone can do it

[31:34] and not feel self-conscious about it,

[31:36] right? So, let's say your partner says

[31:39] uh you know, doesn't say, but let's say

[31:41] they are going to go ahead and like, all

[31:44] right, so I'm not supposed to snap at

[31:45] the kids. I'm supposed to But even

[31:46] though I'm tired, um maybe what I'll do

[31:49] is try to tell story about my day, you

[31:52] know, or I'll try to

[31:54] um you know, try to be funny and like

[31:57] try to say something relatable,

[31:59] whatever.

[32:00] And when they do that, you know, they

[32:03] come off a little awkward. The story

[32:05] goes on too long. They They don't quite

[32:09] get it. The kids are tuning out.

[32:12] If I in that moment say, "Ugh,

[32:15] what are you doing? Like, this isn't

[32:17] helping."

[32:18] That's not inviting change because they

[32:20] just did something. They changed

[32:22] something. It didn't work,

[32:25] but they tried. So, inviting change is

[32:28] allowing the unlearning to work through.

[32:32] >> Oh. So, it's recognizing tiny attempts.

[32:36] >> Yes.

[32:37] >> And having grace.

[32:39] >> Yes.

[32:40] >> And

[32:42] just

[32:43] mhm

[32:43] kind of really understanding, oh, this

[32:46] is the unlearning process. That's

[32:48] stumbling through it.

[32:49] >> is what it looks like. This is what it

[32:51] feels like. They're not going to all of

[32:52] a sudden know how not to snap at the

[32:54] kids.

[32:55] >> And what does reward look like? You said

[32:56] that we could reward change. What does

[32:58] that look like?

[32:58] >> Absolutely. It's it in ways that yeah,

[33:01] depending on the situation, whether you

[33:02] do it publicly or privately, it's in

[33:05] whatever the love language is in your

[33:07] scenario.

[33:09] Telling them you noticed it. You saw it.

[33:12] You appreciate it. You know, if you

[33:14] think it worked, you know, sincerely

[33:17] tell them, I think that really worked.

[33:19] You know, I I saw I saw our daughter

[33:22] light up.

[33:23] >> Mhm.

[33:23] >> When you when you gave her that moment

[33:24] of attention.

[33:26] You know, thank you for hearing me. I

[33:27] know that was hard. You must be tired.

[33:29] >> You know, how do you know when your

[33:31] advice

[33:33] is a complete waste of time? For

[33:35] example, you have a friend that

[33:38] keeps dating people that disrespect her.

[33:41] >> Ooh.

[33:41] >> They're complaining about it or they

[33:43] complain about about their partner of

[33:45] eight years, but they never act on your

[33:48] advice.

[33:48] >> Right.

[33:51] Stop giving advice.

[33:54] >> Stop giving advice? How do you know when

[33:57] it's time to stop giving advice?

[33:59] >> Yeah. So, I like the wait rule.

[34:01] >> What's the wait rule?

[34:02] >> Why am I talking?

[34:05] >> Oh, wait. Why am I talking?

[34:08] >> Right. So, I didn't come up with this.

[34:10] I'm I I don't think we know exactly who

[34:12] came up with it. It was popularized by

[34:14] Michael

[34:18] The wait rule reminds us that when we're

[34:22] talking, especially if we're talking

[34:25] about someone else's problem,

[34:27] we're almost always talking at them.

[34:29] >> Mhm.

[34:30] >> Which means that agency, that sense of I

[34:33] am my own boss, we're taking it away.

[34:37] So,

[34:39] the first question is, have they even

[34:40] asked for our advice? Most of us want to

[34:43] help the people we love solve their

[34:46] problems. That doesn't necessarily mean

[34:48] they asked us for help to solve their

[34:50] problems.

[34:52] And another great little

[34:55] rule of thumb I've heard is to ask

[34:58] people when we feel tempted to solve

[35:01] their problems.

[35:02] Um this one probably won't work in the

[35:05] workplace, but I think it works really

[35:06] well in families. Do you want to be

[35:08] heard,

[35:10] hugged, or helped? Mm. And then my

[35:13] addition to that rule is or high-fived.

[35:17] Heard means they need to vent. In your

[35:19] example, the partner needs to vent.

[35:22] Hugged means they need to feel loved.

[35:27] Helped they need my advice and they want

[35:30] they're asking for it.

[35:32] And now the high-five piece that I've

[35:34] added is sometimes

[35:37] a lot of us want people to notice how

[35:40] hard we're trying, how exhausted we are,

[35:42] how well we're doing. And

[35:45] especially as women, we're not really

[35:48] given permission to just say that's what

[35:50] we need. So, we kind of keep dropping

[35:52] the breadcrumbs hoping someone will

[35:54] high-five us.

[35:56] So, heard, hugged, helped, or

[35:57] high-fived. So, friend is complaining,

[36:00] "They're never taking my advice." My

[36:02] first question is, did they ever ask for

[36:04] it?

[36:05] The advice.

[36:07] The second, let's say they are asking

[36:08] for the advice and they're not taking

[36:10] it.

[36:11] To name that. Say, "I know you've asked

[36:13] for my advice. I'm really flattered by

[36:15] that and I'm always happy to offer it,

[36:17] but I got to ask you a question.

[36:20] When you ask for my advice,

[36:22] do you mean you want to be helped or do

[36:25] you want to be heard?

[36:27] Do you want to be hugged? Are you in

[36:29] pain? Do you want to be high five for

[36:31] the fact that you're a great partner and

[36:33] you're not getting the attention you

[36:35] want at home? Can you tell me a little

[36:36] bit more about what you mean by advice?

[36:41] >> This is so helpful and I love those four

[36:44] categories because I think when I'm in

[36:46] distress or I'm emotionally flooded, I

[36:48] often don't know what I need.

[36:50] >> Yeah.

[36:50] >> And so when somebody asks those four

[36:52] things, I might even surprise myself.

[36:55] One mistake I've absolutely made is when

[36:59] somebody comes to me and they're feeling

[37:01] down,

[37:02] >> Yeah.

[37:03] >> I make the mistake of trying to

[37:05] immediately lift them back up.

[37:06] >> Ah.

[37:07] >> And

[37:07] >> Me, too.

[37:08] >> often times when people come to you in a

[37:10] moment when they're down, they just want

[37:12] a hug.

[37:12] >> They want a hug.

[37:13] >> They don't want the pep talk. They don't

[37:15] want to be told to be strong. They don't

[37:17] want you to fix this. They want to be

[37:19] reassured and comforted.

[37:21] >> Yeah.

[37:21] >> And so I also like the heard, hugged,

[37:24] helped, and high five because it stops

[37:26] me

[37:26] >> Yeah.

[37:27] >> from stepping over a line.

[37:28] >> I like that a lot. Yeah, absolutely. The

[37:31] The um The funny thing is when I've

[37:34] asked this question,

[37:36] I would I mean, I haven't actually

[37:38] counted, but I think 90% of the time the

[37:41] answer I receive is heard.

[37:43] >> Let's talk about difficult people.

[37:44] >> Okay.

[37:45] >> talk about somebody who is always

[37:48] crossing the line.

[37:50] >> Yeah.

[37:50] >> I have someone in my life that just has

[37:55] this love of the jab.

[37:58] >> Mm.

[37:59] >> I don't know if it's conversational

[38:01] style, but

[38:03] I bet as as you're reflecting upon

[38:06] difficult people in your life that there

[38:07] are just some people that when they

[38:11] are there, you're on edge.

[38:12] >> Yeah.

[38:13] >> You're just waiting for it. You're

[38:14] waiting for the political remark. You're

[38:16] waiting for the dismiss. You're waiting

[38:18] for them to say the passive aggressive

[38:20] thing.

[38:21] >> Mhm.

[38:22] >> How do you handle somebody

[38:24] >> Yeah.

[38:24] >> that is insulting or difficult?

[38:28] >> I think a lot of people can relate to

[38:29] what you're describing and and sometimes

[38:31] it's it's at the level of um you're

[38:34] dreading the family gathering because

[38:38] that uncle isn't is is going to jab and

[38:41] often jab down, punch down. And by the

[38:44] way, they want you to take the bait.

[38:46] Now, listen, we do need to be careful

[38:49] because that person may be doing real

[38:51] harm to people in the room and to people

[38:53] out in the world. But what we can do in

[38:55] that moment with that person is rather

[38:57] than giving them more oxygen by going

[39:00] back and forth,

[39:01] >> Yes.

[39:01] >> we can take some of the oxygen out in

[39:03] the moment.

[39:04] >> the oxygen out?

[39:05] >> So he says the thing, you can say

[39:08] Ouch.

[39:09] Or whoa. Or

[39:13] My gosh, you don't look old enough to be

[39:15] that old-fashioned. Now, realize what

[39:18] I'm not doing is inviting an argument.

[39:21] What I am doing is telling everyone else

[39:23] in the room, that's not okay what we

[39:25] just heard.

[39:26] >> The only thing that I've ever said is

[39:28] something that I once heard Jefferson

[39:30] Fisher say and it works like a charm,

[39:31] which is, "Did you actually mean to say

[39:33] that out loud?"

[39:34] >> I like that, too.

[39:35] >> Because

[39:37] you are cuz what are they going to do?

[39:38] Like, "Yes, I meant to sound like a

[39:40] dickhead." And like, you know, like

[39:42] >> [laughter]

[39:42] >> And no, they there's kind of a weird

[39:45] silence thing that happens and then you

[39:47] get up and clear the table.

[39:48] >> Yeah.

[39:49] >> But often I just find it's not worth the

[39:50] response.

[39:51] >> It's another example of

[39:54] your your not giving them oxygen, but

[39:57] you're also not endorsing it.

[39:59] >> Let's talk about um dealing with

[40:02] somebody who gets really defensive.

[40:03] >> Okay.

[40:04] >> The kind of person that is so hard to

[40:07] talk to because the second you try to

[40:10] give feedback, whether it's at work

[40:12] >> Yeah.

[40:13] >> or it's to one of your adult siblings,

[40:16] >> Right.

[40:17] >> They immediately

[40:19] get defensive. What do you do in that

[40:21] situation?

[40:22] >> So, this happens all the time.

[40:25] I get defensive when I get feedback.

[40:27] I've noticed other people get defensive

[40:29] when I give them feedback. Sometimes the

[40:31] problem isn't the defensiveness, it's

[40:33] the feedback.

[40:35] >> Oh.

[40:36] >> And so let's

[40:37] >> Wait, but I want them to be the problem.

[40:39] I don't want my feedback to be the

[40:40] problem, doctor.

[40:41] >> Trust me, they are the problem. But

[40:43] let's figure out how we can show them

[40:45] that they're the problem.

[40:47] So,

[40:48] feedback is a word that's often

[40:51] um

[40:52] equated with adjective. So, what do I

[40:55] mean by adjectives? Uh I might say to

[40:57] someone, "Your work isn't polished

[41:00] enough."

[41:01] Or it's not thorough enough. Polished

[41:04] and thorough are adjectives.

[41:06] >> Mhm.

[41:08] >> There's a lot of ways to understand what

[41:11] polished means. They might think that

[41:13] means there's no typos. They might think

[41:15] that means there's like good animation

[41:18] in their slides. They might think that

[41:20] means the way they talk to the customer.

[41:23] They might think that means that they're

[41:25] wearing certain clothes to work. I mean,

[41:27] polished could mean a lot of things.

[41:30] And so, when we give feedback that's in

[41:33] adjectives,

[41:34] it's really easy for other people to

[41:38] become defensive because it's easy for

[41:40] them to argue with it.

[41:42] >> Oh, so how do you give feedback that

[41:44] somebody can argue with?

[41:46] >> The feedback that's hard to argue with

[41:48] and that's actually easier to act on, so

[41:51] if you're looking for a change that

[41:52] you'll actually get the change you want,

[41:54] is it focuses on the behavior.

[41:57] So, I might say,

[41:58] "I've noticed that on the slides

[42:02] there are uh inconsistencies

[42:06] in the the way we refer to the client's

[42:09] business. On one slide, it said they

[42:13] were in the

[42:14] hospitality business, and in the other

[42:16] slide it said food and beverage.

[42:19] To me, that looks like we haven't gone

[42:21] through and done a thorough proofread.

[42:24] It's not polished enough.

[42:26] So, do you see how once I laid out the

[42:30] actual behaviors, it's indisputable. I

[42:32] just, you know, it says hospitality

[42:34] here, it says food and beverage there.

[42:36] It's a specific behavior, and now I can

[42:39] say that's what I mean by it's not

[42:42] polished enough.

[42:43] >> Oh, you know what I I felt as you were

[42:45] saying that?

[42:45] >> What's that?

[42:46] >> I started to feel defensive.

[42:47] >> Oh, really?

[42:48] >> Because [laughter]

[42:50] >> Say more.

[42:51] >> [gasps]

[42:51] >> Because I was realizing I am guilty

[42:56] of speaking in adjectives, especially

[42:58] with my family.

[42:59] >> Yeah.

[42:59] >> Because I get emotionally flooded

[43:02] >> Yeah.

[43:03] >> when I see particularly

[43:05] just things that are a mess.

[43:07] >> Yeah.

[43:08] >> And often times when we're giving

[43:10] feedback, we're already in a state where

[43:13] we're annoyed.

[43:14] >> Right.

[43:15] >> And

[43:16] that's how I can see that things could

[43:20] become very vague. I'm going to give you

[43:21] an example.

[43:22] >> Let's do it.

[43:23] >> So, I think I did a

[43:24] pretty good job on this.

[43:26] >> Okay.

[43:26] >> So, we have a a bunk room at our house

[43:30] in Vermont, and one of the things that I

[43:31] love more than anything is that our son

[43:33] Oakley, who's 21, is home from college,

[43:35] and he has

[43:36] he and his best friends from high school

[43:38] have a

[43:39] window washing and odd job business.

[43:42] It's year four, shout out Sparkle Boys.

[43:44] And

[43:46] they are employing like 15 kids. Like,

[43:48] they're cranking it out, and they hang

[43:50] out at our house a lot, and I freaking

[43:53] love it.

[43:53] >> Okay.

[43:54] >> And

[43:55] I am very clear with them, I'm not your

[43:57] maid.

[43:58] >> Mhm.

[43:58] >> I'm not your mother.

[43:59] >> Mhm.

[43:59] >> You're always welcome here, and the

[44:00] fridge is stocked, and the door is open,

[44:02] and the arms are open for a hug, but if

[44:05] you turn me into your maid

[44:08] >> Right.

[44:09] >> or your mom

[44:09] >> Right.

[44:10] >> you are not going to be welcome here.

[44:11] >> Right.

[44:12] >> I work so hard that I do not appreciate

[44:15] coming home from a long day of work and

[44:18] seeing this place looking like a frat

[44:20] house.

[44:20] >> Right.

[44:21] >> And so the other day and they've

[44:23] normally been really really good but the

[44:24] other day I came home from being gone

[44:26] for 8 days

[44:27] >> Mhm.

[44:28] >> and I walked into the bunk room

[44:30] and it looked like they had been hazing

[44:33] people in there. Like I I

[44:35] >> I was just like

[44:36] >> And we all know how hard bunk beds seems

[44:38] like the most amazing thing in the world

[44:39] until you have to make a bunk bed.

[44:40] >> Oh, right.

[44:42] >> So normally the old Mel volcano, okay?

[44:46] would pick up the phone and call Oakley

[44:49] and be like

[44:51] >> Yeah.

[44:53] >> And I took a deep breath

[44:55] and I put them all on text and I said,

[44:58] "Hey guys, just got home."

[45:00] >> Yeah.

[45:01] >> And um

[45:03] wanted to share something with you.

[45:07] I took a photo

[45:08] of the beds

[45:10] and the towels on the floor and the wet

[45:12] bathing suits on the couch

[45:14] and I said

[45:16] "Does this look like

[45:19] leaving this in the way you found it?"

[45:23] >> Mhm.

[45:24] >> "Is this representative

[45:27] of what you're capable of in terms of

[45:31] taking care

[45:33] >> Yeah.

[45:33] >> of this house in the way that I've asked

[45:37] >> Right.

[45:38] >> you to do?"

[45:39] >> Right.

[45:40] >> No, no, no.

[45:42] "We can do better." And I said, "Great,

[45:44] because after being gone for 8 days and

[45:46] working as hard as I do, walking in here

[45:49] and seeing that you've left this for me

[45:51] >> Yeah.

[45:52] >> doesn't feel good."

[45:53] >> Right.

[45:55] Mel, that's amazing.

[45:57] >> I don't know how I should like had the

[46:00] restraint.

[46:02] >> Yeah. I can even show you all the

[46:03] photos. Like cuz once you see it, you're

[46:05] like, "Oh my god, we left the house like

[46:06] that?

[46:08] Uh-oh, she was coming home today?" Like

[46:10] if it was like that for 7 days, I don't

[46:11] care, but not on the day that you're not

[46:13] that dumb,

[46:14] >> [laughter]

[46:14] >> right? Like

[46:15] >> So, what you did was another important

[46:18] dimension of feedback is to state your

[46:21] expectation. Good feedback at the

[46:24] workplace or at home includes a few

[46:26] elements. One, people have to know what

[46:28] good looks like, what the expectation

[46:30] is. So, either they have to know in

[46:32] advance or if they didn't know in

[46:34] advance or you didn't you didn't know in

[46:36] advance how to convey it, once you saw

[46:38] what it wasn't, you were able to convey

[46:40] it. Then, they have to know what you

[46:43] saw, heard, the actual behavior, that

[46:47] was the photo for you. The photo was the

[46:49] behavior. So, you stated the

[46:51] expectation, you you gave the the what

[46:55] you observed in the behavior, and then

[46:57] you described the impact it had.

[47:00] And from what I heard in your example,

[47:02] there was no adjective, and you didn't

[47:03] need one.

[47:05] The adjective is the least useful part.

[47:07] >> Yes. Let Let me give you another

[47:09] example. Let's say

[47:11] um you are having trouble

[47:13] >> Mhm.

[47:14] >> getting your family to help.

[47:16] >> Mhm.

[47:16] >> Whether it's help with the laundry or

[47:19] when you walk in the front door, don't

[47:21] just disrobe and drop it all right at

[47:24] the entry. There are cubbies.

[47:26] >> Right.

[47:26] >> If you have a mudroom for a reason, can

[47:28] the shoes go in it? The cubbies?

[47:31] >> [laughter]

[47:31] >> Like you you you you know what I'm

[47:32] saying? Like can you can you get the

[47:35] laundry moving so that it doesn't sit

[47:38] after you do the wash and then rotten

[47:41] there and stink? Like can we get some

[47:43] help? How do you get your family to

[47:47] help?

[47:48] >> I use this when I'm teaching conflict

[47:51] resolution and negotiation classes to my

[47:53] MBA students, and I use this one in my

[47:55] own family and my marriage.

[47:57] It's the one to 10 rule.

[48:00] The question to ask myself and ask

[48:02] someone else, particularly when we

[48:04] disagree on something or I'm asking

[48:07] something of them, like in your example,

[48:10] asking them to do certain things around

[48:11] the home,

[48:13] is on a scale of 1 to 10, how important

[48:16] is this?

[48:17] >> Mhm.

[48:17] >> 10 is the most important.

[48:19] Sometimes what I'm asking for when I'm

[48:22] asking them to hang the things up,

[48:25] the the the hanging up is not the 10.

[48:29] It's the me feeling heard is the 10.

[48:33] Me not being expected to do it for them

[48:37] is the 10.

[48:38] Sometimes maybe the hanging up is a 10.

[48:40] Maybe there are people coming over and

[48:43] no way am I going to be judged, cuz you

[48:45] know I am going to be the one who's

[48:47] judged when someone comes to our home,

[48:49] by this is how I maintain a home. So

[48:53] maybe it is a 10 in that moment. But

[48:55] it's not always a 10. And I think

[48:57] sometimes the people around us

[48:59] hear everything as a 10 from us.

[49:02] >> And if everything's important, nothing

[49:04] is.

[49:04] >> Exactly. Exactly.

[49:06] >> So you stop and ask yourself, one to 10,

[49:09] >> Yeah.

[49:09] >> and what number am I acting on?

[49:11] >> Exactly.

[49:12] >> No, I mean it. Which like when

[49:14] >> Yeah. And and if you and the person in

[49:17] your family are having a discussion

[49:19] about this thing on the ground right

[49:20] now,

[49:21] on a one to 10 scale, how important is

[49:23] it to them that it be dropped on the

[49:26] floor?

[49:26] >> I assume it's a one, and that's why I'm

[49:28] offended and it's a 10. Because it's

[49:30] important to me, but it's not important

[49:32] to them. And if it were important to

[49:33] them, they would pick it up. Do you see

[49:35] what I'm saying? And this gets back to

[49:36] the

[49:36] >> No, but how important is it to them to

[49:38] not listen to you?

[49:39] >> Oh.

[49:42] Probably a 10.

[49:43] >> Mhm.

[49:43] >> Because their value might be, I'm my own

[49:46] person and you don't tell me what to do.

[49:47] >> Right.

[49:48] >> I've been at college for 2 years, so I'm

[49:50] now an adult.

[49:51] >> And this is my space.

[49:53] And when I come home from college and I

[49:55] don't feel like this is my space

[49:56] anymore. I don't feel like these are my

[49:58] rules anymore.

[50:00] Needs something to be mine.

[50:02] >> Oh, you're really good. And also, if

[50:04] I've been working all day in the hot sun

[50:08] washing disgusting windows in other

[50:10] people's houses and I've had to pull it

[50:12] together and manage people. I'm freaking

[50:14] exhausted and I don't care about your

[50:15] damn house cuz I'm coming in.

[50:16] >> Right.

[50:17] >> And I want to relax for a minute.

[50:18] >> Right.

[50:19] Right.

[50:20] >> Oh, wow. I'm arguing about

[50:22] the thing on the floor.

[50:26] But

[50:27] we're completely missing each other.

[50:29] >> Maybe.

[50:29] >> Cuz the 10 that's important for me is

[50:32] hey, I need help around here.

[50:34] And the 10 that's important for the

[50:35] person you're trying to change are

[50:37] completely different topics.

[50:38] >> I mean, what we do in my with my husband

[50:40] and I is if it's if if both of us are

[50:43] between one and seven, then whoever's

[50:46] the higher number wins and like why are

[50:47] we even talking about this? Life is

[50:48] busy. Let's move on.

[50:50] And if either of us is an eight, nine,

[50:53] or 10, there's something to be

[50:55] understood here and discussed. It's

[50:57] worth our time. It's worth my, you know,

[50:59] effort.

[51:00] >> I love that. How do you know when you're

[51:03] supporting somebody versus enabling

[51:05] them?

[51:06] >> Oh, gosh. Oh, Mel. This feels like a

[51:09] dream sequence because I feel like this

[51:11] is a central growth area of my life and

[51:14] like adult children. Is that what you're

[51:15] about to talk about? Yes. You know,

[51:17] you're the universe is trolling me and I

[51:19] I've learned so much from your work on

[51:21] this very issue.

[51:23] So, let me let me step a little bit

[51:25] outside of my like expertise as a social

[51:29] psychologist and more into just my lived

[51:31] experience of seeing how the science of

[51:33] growth works.

[51:34] My definition of hell on earth

[51:37] is watching someone I love suffer

[51:41] and not being able to do anything about

[51:43] it.

[51:43] Being helpless.

[51:46] I honestly don't think there's any

[51:48] greater pain in this world.

[51:52] And I I know that a lot of people have

[51:54] been in this position where in an

[51:57] instant

[51:59] we would take their pain. We would take

[52:01] their suffering. We would take their

[52:02] distress.

[52:04] But all we can do is bear witness to it.

[52:07] And that's what feels like hell.

[52:12] Sometimes

[52:15] what we think is supporting other people

[52:18] is us trying to deal with that feeling

[52:21] of hell.

[52:22] >> Mhm.

[52:22] >> We're just trying to lower

[52:26] the pain of it

[52:28] by doing something.

[52:31] And you know,

[52:34] while it might make us feel slightly

[52:36] less helpless, it's probably

[52:40] making things worse.

[52:42] >> Why does it make it worse?

[52:44] If you're providing the financial

[52:46] support or you're giving a place to live

[52:49] or you're

[52:51] doing the things that we want to do

[52:52] because we're trying

[52:54] I think you're right to feel like we're

[52:56] doing

[52:57] everything we can.

[52:59] >> Right.

[53:00] >> To support this person, but actually

[53:03] that soft cushion of support is keeping

[53:06] the person from hitting the edge

[53:09] >> Mhm.

[53:10] >> of their experience.

[53:13] >> Right.

[53:14] >> And truly having to reckon with

[53:17] the consequences of the decisions that

[53:20] they're making

[53:22] and the patterns that they haven't been

[53:25] unwilling to to unlearn yet or haven't

[53:29] been able to.

[53:30] >> Yeah. I think that the way you described

[53:33] it is exactly my sense of it as well.

[53:36] I'm also centering my own needs in that

[53:38] moment. I don't mean to. I love this

[53:41] person so much. That's why this is

[53:42] happening. But by me doing the things

[53:45] that make me feel better, it's a little

[53:47] harder for me to see what they need.

[53:49] >> Have you figured out and cuz I know this

[53:52] is deeply personal for all of us.

[53:54] >> Mhm.

[53:55] >> And nobody can actually tell you

[53:58] when is the appropriate time to keep

[54:00] doing and offering support and paying

[54:03] for things and stepping in because

[54:06] that's the thing that makes you feel

[54:08] >> Mhm.

[54:09] >> like you're doing what you can do and

[54:11] that's the thing that is the only part

[54:14] of this that you can control.

[54:15] >> Right.

[54:16] >> And when is it that you say, I recognize

[54:19] that this person does not want to

[54:21] change, they are not ready to change

[54:24] and I am a participant at this point

[54:28] >> Right.

[54:29] >> up the dynamic and the only thing I can

[54:31] do now

[54:33] is remove myself from the dynamic

[54:36] >> Right.

[54:36] >> so this person has both the dignity of

[54:38] their own experience and they also have

[54:41] to feel the consequences of

[54:43] the way they're moving through life.

[54:45] >> Right.

[54:46] >> It's so personal and I just I'm like I

[54:49] don't know if there's any kind of

[54:52] sliding scale ruler like self-reflection

[54:55] to be able to really wrestle with

[54:58] yourself.

[54:59] >> I think though just recognizing that

[55:04] we know it's hard for us to grow and

[55:06] then we've talked about having empathy

[55:08] for how hard it is for others to grow.

[55:11] Sometimes

[55:13] it's hard

[55:14] for us to let others grow.

[55:17] >> I love that. Um you and two practices

[55:21] Dr. Chugh

[55:23] in your classes

[55:24] you call it shout-outs and own-its.

[55:27] >> Yeah.

[55:27] >> So what is shout-outs and own-its and

[55:29] how can I and the person listening apply

[55:32] this to their life?

[55:32] >> Absolutely. Yeah, so one of the classes

[55:35] I teach is about how to be a good boss

[55:37] and one of the things um in that sort of

[55:40] leadership type of um class that we talk

[55:43] a lot about is

[55:45] noticing what people are doing well and

[55:49] expressing it to them. Now, this is

[55:51] leadership. I'm talking about how to be

[55:52] a good boss in the workplace, but it

[55:54] applies broadly. We are leaders in our

[55:56] families, we're leaders in our

[55:57] communities, we are leaders in our

[55:59] religious organizations.

[56:01] And so,

[56:02] what we're doing at the end of this

[56:04] class is asking um for volunteers to

[56:08] shout out a classmate.

[56:10] Again, it's often things that the things

[56:13] that the shout-out uh I really

[56:15] appreciated when

[56:17] Mel asked that question because I was

[56:19] thinking it, too, but I was really

[56:21] afraid to ask it.

[56:22] >> Mhm.

[56:23] >> Uh and the person who asked the question

[56:25] may not have thought twice about asking

[56:27] it. Or they may have felt a lot of

[56:28] anxiety about asking it. And now that

[56:30] they hear that someone else was also

[56:32] sitting with that question, they feel

[56:33] less anxiety that was that question a

[56:35] dumb question.

[56:36] >> You know what I'm going to do? I'm going

[56:37] to take a photo of those bunk beds when

[56:39] those boys make it, and I'm going to put

[56:41] it in the group chat, and shout it out.

[56:42] Great job, guys.

[56:43] >> I love it. I love it. And then a own it

[56:46] is um taking ownership for a way in

[56:49] which, you know, you didn't you didn't

[56:51] kind of get it right that day. And by

[56:52] get it right, I mean

[56:54] someone might say, um

[56:56] "Listen, I want to own it. I had my

[56:58] phone out a lot during class today. I

[57:00] just had trouble being engaged, and I'm

[57:02] really sorry, and I know it kind of

[57:04] affects everyone else when someone takes

[57:06] their phone out." Or "I was late today.

[57:09] My small group had to get going without

[57:11] me, and then spend time catching me up.

[57:13] I didn't manage my time right. I'm

[57:14] sorry."

[57:15] >> I love the own it.

[57:16] >> I love the own it. And I I have to say,

[57:17] like, in class, one thing I was thinking

[57:19] about this coming semester is we get a

[57:21] lot more shout-outs than own its, which

[57:22] makes sense. I mean, there's a lot more

[57:23] good than than not going on, but

[57:26] I think I need to do more own its myself

[57:29] to sort of motivate more own its for my

[57:32] students, as well, which is another

[57:34] thing we know about being a good boss is

[57:37] uh

[57:37] we want to be

[57:39] bringing out the best in others, but

[57:42] doing it in a way that shows we're

[57:43] taking accountability for when we're not

[57:45] at our best.

[57:46] >> Well, one of the things that you've

[57:47] taught us is that

[57:49] when it comes to trying to change other

[57:51] people,

[57:52] >> Mhm.

[57:52] >> you can model, you can invite and

[57:54] reward, and

[57:57] shout-outs are really I'm really good at

[57:59] shout-outs. I notice all the things

[58:01] going well

[58:03] to a fault.

[58:03] >> Okay.

[58:05] >> And

[58:06] if you over-compliment people,

[58:09] >> Right.

[58:10] >> then you create an inability

[58:13] to hear criticism.

[58:14] >> Oh.

[58:14] >> Or to hear feedback. And so, the own-it

[58:17] piece

[58:18] as a parent,

[58:20] as a colleague, as a friend, owning it

[58:25] where you didn't show up, where you

[58:28] flubbed something, where you

[58:31] threw your crap in the entry after

[58:33] yelling at everybody else,

[58:35] >> Yeah.

[58:35] >> um

[58:37] to me, that's modeling

[58:40] >> Yeah.

[58:41] >> change and accountability.

[58:42] >> I like that a lot.

[58:44] >> too.

[58:44] >> I like that a lot.

[58:45] >> That's one of the That's a big thing I'm

[58:46] taking a lot of things from this

[58:47] conversation, but I am going to pull

[58:50] that and own it.

[58:52] >> I love it. I love it.

[58:53] >> as a parent, as a friend, and I think we

[58:56] may do shout-outs and own-its here in

[58:58] our meetings because

[59:00] >> I feel like the muscle of owning it when

[59:03] things aren't going well

[59:05] is something we can work on.

[59:07] >> Nice.

[59:07] >> Um so, thank you for that.

[59:09] >> Absolutely.

[59:09] >> Um for the person who's listening, you

[59:12] have poured so much into us. I mean,

[59:15] when I think about what you've taught us

[59:17] about the difference between knowing

[59:19] better and doing better.

[59:21] >> Yeah.

[59:22] >> This subtle, but serious moment of

[59:25] needing to unlearn behavior before you

[59:28] can change it.

[59:29] >> Right.

[59:30] >> Oh my gosh, the two questions to end

[59:32] every day.

[59:33] The tool after tool after tool that you

[59:37] gave us from pushing to pulling to the

[59:40] one to 10 rule. There was just so much

[59:43] here.

[59:44] Um

[59:45] if the person listening

[59:48] takes just one action,

[59:51] >> Mhm.

[59:51] >> what is the most important thing to do

[59:54] after you have listened to this episode

[59:57] other than sharing it with everybody

[59:58] want to change. I love it. We're going

[1:00:00] to let Dr. Chug change them.

[1:00:02] >> I would say I bet everyone in your

[1:00:06] audience considers themself a lifelong

[1:00:08] learner.

[1:00:10] What would it mean to be a lifelong

[1:00:11] learner and a lifelong unlearner?

[1:00:15] >> Oh.

[1:00:16] Like simply by listening

[1:00:18] >> Yeah.

[1:00:18] >> today

[1:00:19] >> Yeah.

[1:00:20] >> and investing the time in yourself

[1:00:22] you learned so much

[1:00:24] and having that I'm a lifelong learner,

[1:00:28] I need to unlearn some things to

[1:00:30] continue to grow and to not prove

[1:00:33] anything,

[1:00:34] but as you said to be improving

[1:00:36] >> Right.

[1:00:37] >> the way that I feel about myself and the

[1:00:38] way that I approach life and the way

[1:00:40] that I connect with other people.

[1:00:41] >> Right.

[1:00:42] >> Amazing. Dr. Chug, what are your parting

[1:00:44] words?

[1:00:45] >> [sighs]

[1:00:46] >> I would say that hope and energy lies in

[1:00:49] growth.

[1:00:50] To just lean into that. There's all this

[1:00:53] pressure on us. We're so exhausted.

[1:00:55] We're being pulled in every direction.

[1:00:58] And sometimes that makes us feel like

[1:01:01] ah, there's no more to do. I cannot do

[1:01:03] anymore. And I promise you

[1:01:06] that when we allow ourselves into this

[1:01:08] space, this space of growth

[1:01:11] of improving rather than proving, we

[1:01:13] will feel more hope and more energy.

[1:01:16] >> You promised at the beginning, Dr. Chug,

[1:01:18] that we would feel lighter.

[1:01:19] >> Mhm.

[1:01:20] >> And we would feel a little bit more in

[1:01:25] control.

[1:01:26] >> Yeah. And I feel it after talking to

[1:01:29] you.

[1:01:29] >> You do?

[1:01:29] >> Yeah, I I want to thank you because I

[1:01:32] learned so much today.

[1:01:35] It was the conversation was not exactly

[1:01:38] how I thought it would be even though we

[1:01:40] put a tremendous amount of upfront

[1:01:43] >> Yes.

[1:01:43] >> research in

[1:01:45] to get to the point to have the

[1:01:46] conversation.

[1:01:47] >> Yes.

[1:01:48] >> But what you really did for me today and

[1:01:51] I I bet I'm speaking on behalf of you as

[1:01:53] well as you're listening is I really

[1:01:55] reflected

[1:01:57] on myself.

[1:01:58] >> Mhm.

[1:01:58] >> I thought that I was going to come in

[1:02:00] here and get all the tips and tricks to

[1:02:02] diffuse the jerks out there and

[1:02:04] manipulate people to change and have

[1:02:07] everybody stop draining my energy and

[1:02:09] what I realized is I'm actually draining

[1:02:10] my own energy.

[1:02:11] >> Yeah.

[1:02:12] >> I'm the one who's holding this

[1:02:13] impossible standard over myself.

[1:02:16] And then to fulfill my own needs to feel

[1:02:19] good, I'm pressuring everybody else and

[1:02:22] there's a very different way you can go

[1:02:24] about this and you made us smarter about

[1:02:26] change, the reality of it and you also

[1:02:30] I think opened up this window of

[1:02:33] true compassion and empathy

[1:02:35] >> Mhm.

[1:02:36] >> by helping us understand the dynamics.

[1:02:40] And I also appreciate the tactics. So

[1:02:42] thank you.

[1:02:43] >> synopsis. Thank you, Mel. This was

[1:02:44] great. Thank you for being you and thank

[1:02:46] you for having me here.

[1:02:47] >> Oh my gosh, it's such a pleasure and

[1:02:49] thank you. Thank you for making the time

[1:02:51] to listen to this. I hope you found it

[1:02:54] as fascinating and as helpful. I hope

[1:02:56] you reflected on how hard you are on

[1:02:58] yourself, that good goodish balance,

[1:03:02] that whole distinction between

[1:03:04] constantly trying to prove that you got

[1:03:06] it all done and that you're good versus

[1:03:08] just

[1:03:10] exhale.

[1:03:11] What if you're just unlearning and

[1:03:13] learning and

[1:03:14] improving and don't forget those two

[1:03:16] incredible questions. I love those.

[1:03:19] Did I do my best today and what did I

[1:03:21] learn? You start asking that and I

[1:03:23] promise you you're going to learn a lot

[1:03:24] about yourself and you're going to grow

[1:03:26] into the person that you are meant to

[1:03:28] be.

[1:03:29] And in case no one else tells you, as

[1:03:30] your friend, I wanted to tell you that I

[1:03:32] love you and I believe in you and I

[1:03:34] believe in your ability to create a

[1:03:35] better life and the tools that Dr. Chew

[1:03:38] taught you today

[1:03:39] will help you create a better life and

[1:03:42] feel better in your life. I am certain

[1:03:44] of it. All righty, I'll see you in the

[1:03:46] next episode. I'll welcome you in the

[1:03:48] moment you hit play.

[1:03:49] All righty, thank you for watching all

[1:03:51] the way to the end here on YouTube.

[1:03:53] Thank you for sharing this with people

[1:03:55] in your life who you're trying to change

[1:03:57] or who are really hard on themselves and

[1:03:58] need to change the way that they talk to

[1:04:00] themselves. There was so much in this. I

[1:04:01] know that your life is going to get

[1:04:03] better and so I'm thrilled that you have

[1:04:04] this as a resource. All right, you want

[1:04:06] to see something next? This is the next

[1:04:08] episode of the Mel Robbins podcast

[1:04:10] you're going to love and I'm going to

[1:04:11] welcome you in the moment you hit

[1:04:12] [music] play.

Mel Robbins
AuthorMel Robbins

Watch more from Mel Robbins on YouTube.

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Change-resistanceRelationshipsBehavioral-scienceIdentity-egoAutonomy

Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

Your brain has two protective systems: an energy bodyguard that runs most functions on autopilot to conserve mental resources, and an identity/ego bodyguard that defends your sense of self. Change requires conscious effort and can threaten how you see yourself, triggering resistance even when the change is objectively beneficial.
Before offering advice, ask yourself: Did they ask for this? If not, instead of suggesting solutions, ask what they actually need from you in that moment—whether that's listening, practical help, space to think, or permission to share your perspective. This honors their autonomy and keeps the relationship collaborative.
When you consistently rescue someone from consequences or solve their problems, you can inadvertently create learned helplessness—they stop believing they're capable of handling things themselves. The key is recognizing when someone is already at their emotional limit and stepping back instead of offering more help.
Adjectives attack someone's identity rather than addressing specific behavior, which triggers their ego bodyguard and shuts down listening. Instead, describe the observable behavior and its impact: 'When you didn't follow through, I felt disappointed' is far more effective than 'You're irresponsible.'
No—you can't force change in another person. What you can do is create conditions that make change easier: stop pushing, listen, honor their agency, and model the behavior you want to see. Accepting this limit is liberating for both of you.
Change isn't just learning something new; it's about replacing automatic patterns that still exist in your brain. Old and new behaviors coexist, and under stress, the automatic one usually wins. Unlearning means practicing the new pattern repeatedly until it becomes automatic too.

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