Transcript
[0:00] Today,
[0:01] >> [music]
[0:01] >> on the Mel Robbins podcast, how to deal
[0:03] with people who won't change with NYU
[0:07] Stern School of Business Professor Dr.
[0:09] Dolly Chugh.
[0:11] She'll teach you how to stop wasting
[0:13] your energy and do this instead.
[0:17] Please help me welcome Dr. Dolly Chugh
[0:20] to the Mel Robbins podcast.
[0:22] >> I'm so thrilled to be here, Mel. Thank
[0:23] you for having me.
[0:24] >> I'm thrilled that you're here, too, and
[0:27] I know that this topic is going to
[0:30] resonate with the person who's listening
[0:32] right now, and it's going to be
[0:35] incredibly helpful.
[0:36] Could you start, Dr. Chugh, by telling
[0:39] the person who's here with us
[0:42] what could change about their life and
[0:44] their relationships if they take
[0:46] everything to heart that you're about to
[0:48] teach us about dealing with the people
[0:50] in your life that are not changing?
[0:53] >> You're going to feel lighter.
[0:55] You're going to feel more hopeful.
[0:58] You're going to see a path because
[1:00] you're going to have tools that will
[1:02] help you both when you're trying to make
[1:04] changes in yourself [snorts] and when
[1:06] you're trying to make changes in other
[1:07] people.
[1:09] You're going to realize you're not alone
[1:11] in those moments, those messy human
[1:15] moments.
[1:16] And you're going to drop some of the
[1:18] frustration that you have and the
[1:20] expectations that you have of other
[1:22] people.
[1:23] >> I love that. I want to feel more free.
[1:26] I want to feel lighter. That sounds
[1:28] fantastic because the people in my life
[1:30] drive me crazy. And the other thing is
[1:32] is I know that I drive the people in my
[1:33] life crazy.
[1:34] >> Right.
[1:35] >> You know, there's that famous quote,
[1:37] when you know better, you do better.
[1:40] Maya Angelou said that. And I think
[1:42] that's true when you look backwards at
[1:44] the lessons that you've learned the hard
[1:46] way.
[1:46] >> Mhm.
[1:47] >> But when I think about myself,
[1:49] I will admit that I often know better.
[1:52] >> [laughter]
[1:53] >> But I don't do better. And your research
[1:57] really sits at the heart of knowing
[2:00] better,
[2:01] but we don't do better.
[2:03] Why is it, Dr. Chug, that we can know
[2:07] better? We know we should not be
[2:08] drinking tonight. We know we should go
[2:10] to the gym this morning. We know that we
[2:13] shouldn't spend money on that thing that
[2:15] we don't need because we're supposed to
[2:17] be saving for somebody. We know we
[2:19] shouldn't snap at our kids, but we don't
[2:22] do it.
[2:22] >> There's two key insights that really
[2:26] helped me from the science of human
[2:28] behavior here.
[2:30] And I like to think of these insights as
[2:33] understanding our mind as having
[2:35] bodyguards.
[2:36] >> Okay, hold on. Our mind has bodyguards?
[2:39] >> has these two big bodyguards that are
[2:42] keeping out change and keeping out
[2:45] growth. And here is what those two
[2:46] bodyguards are all about. I call I call
[2:48] one of them energy and one of them ego.
[2:51] Energy bodyguard is trying to
[2:55] preserve my energy. They're trying to
[2:58] make my life as easy as possible.
[3:01] And that means that a lot of what we do
[3:03] is on autopilot. Let me give you an
[3:05] example. I'm going to snap my fingers.
[3:09] And in that snap of a fingers,
[3:12] you just had 11 million thoughts.
[3:16] >> Wait, what?
[3:17] >> Right.
[3:17] >> 11 million?
[3:18] >> Yes. There's There's There's a study
[3:20] that says
[3:22] that there is so much of our mind on
[3:24] autopilot, like for example, let's say
[3:26] you had a long day and now you're
[3:28] heading home, you're driving or you're
[3:31] taking a subway or a bus or you're
[3:32] riding the bike or you're you're
[3:34] walking. And you get home, you walk in
[3:36] the door, and you realize you don't
[3:38] remember anything about that commute
[3:40] home. You don't remember red lights or
[3:42] green lights or did you get a seat on
[3:44] the bus? You just did it cuz you've done
[3:47] it a million times.
[3:48] >> know what I think is I literally say to
[3:49] myself, "Oh my god, what just happened?
[3:51] Where was I?"
[3:52] >> Right.
[3:53] >> But the good news is is that's your body
[3:56] and your brain doing everything it
[3:57] should conserving energy. That's the
[4:00] bodyguard putting you on autopilot
[4:02] letting you do the things you know how
[4:04] to do without having to think too hard
[4:06] about it.
[4:07] >> Okay, got it.
[4:07] >> So I call those little T thoughts not
[4:10] cap not capital T thoughts, right? And
[4:12] even right now the fact that you and I
[4:14] can understand each other that we sort
[4:16] of know which direction to face it we
[4:18] can detect the temperature in the room
[4:20] and the feeling of our clothes on us but
[4:22] we're not necessarily big T thinking
[4:25] about it. So in that snap of the fingers
[4:27] 11 million
[4:29] little T thoughts. They say maybe like
[4:32] 40 big T thoughts actual thoughts like
[4:35] you're thinking what should I say next
[4:37] you know, is this microphone the correct
[4:39] distance all those are big T thoughts
[4:41] I'm not
[4:42] >> And these are all happening
[4:43] simultaneously and I'm not even really
[4:44] aware of it.
[4:45] >> We're not even aware of it because
[4:46] that's the brilliance of being a human
[4:48] being is that we are able to do that and
[4:51] that's because we have this mental
[4:52] bodyguard that's protecting our energy
[4:55] and some people refer to it as our
[4:57] unconscious mind is doing a lot of the
[4:59] work. So when we talk about if we go
[5:01] back to the question of you know, why
[5:03] when I know something don't I do it?
[5:06] >> Yes.
[5:07] >> Sometimes knowing is talking about those
[5:10] capital T thoughts right the 40 not the
[5:13] 11 million but there's still a whole lot
[5:15] going on in our unconscious mind and our
[5:18] habits and our reflexes
[5:20] that are going to keep us in a space
[5:22] that isn't closing that gap between
[5:25] knowing and doing.
[5:26] >> Okay.
[5:27] >> So that's one thing.
[5:28] >> Energy.
[5:29] >> Energy.
[5:29] >> Yes.
[5:30] >> There's a second bodyguard and this
[5:31] one's even bigger.
[5:34] This bodyguard is trying to protect call
[5:37] it our ego call it our self call it our
[5:40] identity.
[5:41] It's whatever it is that makes us
[5:45] feel like the person we mean to be.
[5:47] There's a study that looked at how much
[5:50] we value having affirmation, having sort
[5:53] of validation of these identities we
[5:56] care about, whatever they are, more than
[5:59] your favorite food, more than time with
[6:02] a friend, more than your favorite sex
[6:04] act. We really, really like to protect
[6:09] our identity and our ego, whatever that
[6:12] means.
[6:12] >> So, can you give me an example?
[6:13] >> Let's say that
[6:15] I consider myself like some an identity
[6:18] I care about is being considered kind
[6:20] and warm. That's that's how I define
[6:22] being a good person.
[6:24] And I um am walking around my
[6:27] neighborhood one day, it's beautiful out
[6:29] and I think, "You know what? Let me take
[6:31] this work call. It's, you know, audio
[6:33] only. Let me just put the little AirPod
[6:35] in. I'm working from home today and do
[6:37] this call while I'm walking." It's an
[6:39] important work call. I'm listening
[6:41] intently. I unknowingly
[6:44] blow off a neighbor.
[6:46] I'm in my work call. My little AirPod's
[6:48] tucked in my ear. They probably don't
[6:49] see it. They wave.
[6:51] And I hear later that they reported that
[6:54] I blew them off to someone else. They
[6:57] tell other neighbors that "Oh, there she
[7:00] is, being a bit standoffish."
[7:02] >> Yep.
[7:03] >> That bothers me a lot.
[7:06] A lot. Now, there are other people whose
[7:08] identity isn't as tied up in being seen
[7:10] as kind and warm and friendly and that
[7:12] kind of neighbor that says hello to
[7:13] everybody. They may not care.
[7:16] But for me,
[7:17] that really bothers me.
[7:20] So,
[7:21] we've got these two bodyguards that are
[7:23] going to always want to push away
[7:26] anything that suggests changing what
[7:28] we're doing.
[7:29] >> Okay.
[7:30] >> Or growing into being someone else if it
[7:32] threatens our energy or our ego in the
[7:36] moment.
[7:36] >> So, you just explained to me why the
[7:38] people that I love, who I'm I'm about,
[7:41] don't take better care of themselves.
[7:42] Okay, so for example, it takes a lot of
[7:45] energy
[7:46] >> Yeah.
[7:46] >> to lift weights,
[7:49] to eat healthy,
[7:50] >> Yeah.
[7:51] >> to go for a walk, when especially when
[7:53] you haven't.
[7:53] >> Right.
[7:54] >> And if your ego and something that you
[7:57] value is I'm in control with me, nobody
[8:00] tells me what to do.
[8:01] >> Yes.
[8:01] >> My desire for you to now lift weights
[8:04] cuz your doctor said so or to start
[8:06] walking cuz I think it's important for
[8:08] you to prevent dementia or for you to
[8:11] eat healthy cuz I'm worried about the
[8:12] weight you're putting on, I'm now
[8:14] threatening one of your core values,
[8:17] which is I'm my own person, don't tell
[8:19] me what to do.
[8:20] Wow.
[8:21] >> You just nailed it. And that's that's
[8:22] called agency. It's a It's a fundamental
[8:25] human need that I'm my own person, don't
[8:27] tell me what to do. Now, can you do that
[8:29] to yourself cuz I often feel like
[8:31] >> I'm such a whether you call it control
[8:34] freak or rebel,
[8:36] >> Yeah.
[8:36] >> that I even rebel against my own
[8:39] attempts to make [laughter] myself.
[8:42] >> Yeah.
[8:43] >> You know, like you know what I'm saying?
[8:44] Like nobody I'm the world's worst
[8:46] employee because I hate being told what
[8:48] to do.
[8:48] >> Right.
[8:49] >> Unless I understand why I need to do it.
[8:51] >> Yep.
[8:52] >> And even when I try to tell myself what
[8:55] to do,
[8:56] >> Right.
[8:56] >> I notice I negotiate with myself and
[8:59] push back. And I think you just
[9:01] explained why.
[9:02] >> I think that's right. I think that's
[9:03] right.
[9:03] >> the bodyguard of the ego. Nobody tells
[9:05] Mel Robbins what to do, not even Mel
[9:07] Robbins.
[9:09] Can you show me, Dr. Chug, this gap
[9:13] between knowing
[9:15] better but not doing better?
[9:18] >> All right, Mel, I'm going to ask for
[9:19] your help with this. I'm going to I'm
[9:20] going to pull out a little prop. You
[9:21] ready?
[9:22] >> Okay, got it.
[9:22] >> Okay. All right, so
[9:25] what I'm going to show you here is this
[9:27] poster board has uh words written in
[9:32] different color fonts. You might notice
[9:34] that there's red, there's orange,
[9:36] there's green, pink, blue, and we've got
[9:38] about
[9:39] >> 15 words. And what I want you to do is
[9:42] I'm going to point to a word, and you
[9:44] just tell me what color it's in.
[9:46] >> Okay.
[9:47] >> All right, Mel, you got it. Go.
[9:48] >> Red. Orange. I'm just doing color,
[9:51] right? Green, pink, blue.
[9:54] Green, blue, red, yellow, green.
[9:58] >> Crushing it.
[9:58] >> Blue, yellow, pink, green, orange.
[10:01] >> Oh, you did so well.
[10:02] >> Now, here's what I want to point out to
[10:03] the person listening.
[10:04] The word is the same as the color. So,
[10:07] she's pointing to a
[10:09] the first word, the word is red, but
[10:11] it's also red.
[10:12] >> Yeah.
[10:12] >> When you pointed to the second, the word
[10:14] is orange, and the color of the word is
[10:16] also orange. Okay. Now, what's
[10:17] happening?
[10:17] >> you're catching on here, Mel, because
[10:19] I've now, like you, I'm flipping the
[10:22] chart, and
[10:23] >> me just tell the person listening, every
[10:25] word
[10:26] is a color,
[10:28] but the actual color that the word is
[10:32] written in is different from the word.
[10:34] So, she's about to point to the word
[10:35] green, but it's actually printed in the
[10:38] color orange.
[10:39] >> Exactly. And I want to point out before
[10:41] you do it, Mel, that right now, what you
[10:43] just did was you were able to narrate to
[10:46] me exactly what we're doing. So, that's
[10:48] the knowing.
[10:50] >> Okay, so I know know. Okay.
[10:52] >> And and do. So, we you just you know
[10:55] what we're doing.
[10:56] >> Yes.
[10:56] >> Let's see if you can do it.
[10:57] >> Okay.
[10:59] Uh
[11:00] This is like a brain scram.
[11:02] >> Oh, it's all right.
[11:03] >> Wait, am I reading the word or telling
[11:04] you the color?
[11:05] >> You're You're telling me the color.
[11:07] I know.
[11:08] >> You can do it. Try hard.
[11:09] >> Wait, I'm telling you the color?
[11:10] >> Tell me the color.
[11:11] >> Of the word.
[11:12] >> The The color of the font
[11:14] >> Is orange the right answer?
[11:16] >> Yes.
[11:16] >> Oh god, even though the word is green.
[11:18] Okay.
[11:18] >> Yes.
[11:20] >> Red.
[11:21] >> Good.
[11:22] >> Pink.
[11:22] >> Yes.
[11:23] >> Uh
[11:24] yellow. Oh, uh blue.
[11:28] Orange.
[11:30] Blue.
[11:31] Oh.
[11:32] Red.
[11:34] Green.
[11:35] Orange.
[11:38] >> Pink.
[11:39] >> Yes.
[11:39] >> Green, blue, yellow, red. Okay, my brain
[11:42] all of a sudden went like it got it.
[11:45] >> Right. By the last color.
[11:46] >> Right. I was not faking that, by the
[11:48] way.
[11:48] >> So, Mel, what you just did is called the
[11:50] Stroop test.
[11:52] >> Stroop? Like strap and poop as one
[11:54] thing? Stroop?
[11:55] >> Okay. That's a good way to remember it.
[11:57] >> And why did you show us that and what
[12:00] does it have to do with change?
[12:01] >> What you were trying to do is take two
[12:04] things that happen really quickly for
[12:05] you. One of them is detecting color.
[12:08] >> Yes.
[12:08] >> And one of them is reading. So, those
[12:11] two effortless activities were were no
[12:14] longer effortless because they
[12:16] conflicted with each other. They
[12:18] contradicted each other. So, what I
[12:20] asked you to do in that moment was
[12:22] unlearn reading.
[12:23] >> Whoa.
[12:25] And what you experienced
[12:28] when being asked to do something that
[12:30] you have to unlearn.
[12:31] >> Mhm.
[12:32] >> And I bet as you were watching on
[12:33] YouTube, you felt the same thing as I
[12:34] felt this internal friction and
[12:37] resistance.
[12:37] >> Exactly.
[12:38] >> And
[12:40] that's always there
[12:43] whenever I have to do something that
[12:44] I've either never done before or I don't
[12:46] want to. Whether it's getting off the
[12:48] couch or putting the phone down
[12:51] >> That's right.
[12:51] >> or
[12:53] trying something I've never tried
[12:55] before. I feel that same
[12:58] >> That's right, because that's what
[12:59] unlearning feels like. That's what
[13:00] change feels like. That's what growth
[13:02] feels like. Unlearning is a two-step
[13:04] process, cuz first I've got to let go of
[13:07] the thing I already know how to do.
[13:09] And then I've got to learn the new
[13:11] thing. And so, when we're asking other
[13:13] people to change,
[13:15] I'm not saying we shouldn't ask for that
[13:17] and that we shouldn't hold people
[13:19] accountable, especially if their actions
[13:21] are hurting us.
[13:23] Absolutely.
[13:24] But
[13:26] the empathy that we can have for what
[13:29] we're asking of them is going to go a
[13:31] long way in that moment.
[13:32] >> Mhm. Because we
[13:34] know how hard it is for us to change,
[13:36] but we just assume other people can do
[13:37] it like that.
[13:38] >> Totally. We
[13:39] >> And that if they don't do it like that,
[13:41] they're a jerk.
[13:42] >> We want grace for our own mistakes and
[13:46] learning curve, and we want
[13:48] accountability for everyone else's.
[13:51] >> My god, it's so I'm so guilty of that.
[13:53] >> Okay, I'm going to put this visual away.
[13:56] >> Super cool. Thank you for bringing that.
[13:58] >> Absolutely.
[13:59] >> So, what is the biggest mistake
[14:03] that you make when you know what you
[14:07] should be doing, but you're still not
[14:10] doing it?
[14:10] >> That we forget that you can't learn from
[14:12] a mistake you're still defending.
[14:16] >> Oh, wait. What do you mean by that?
[14:18] >> That
[14:20] we get in a space
[14:22] of trying to prove ourselves rather than
[14:25] trying to improve ourselves.
[14:28] >> Hold on. Did you hear that? She said we
[14:31] get into a space where we try to prove
[14:33] ourselves instead of trying to improve
[14:38] ourselves.
[14:38] >> Right.
[14:39] >> Oh my gosh.
[14:42] I do that.
[14:44] I can think of a million examples where
[14:46] I got very defensive.
[14:47] >> Me, too.
[14:48] >> Proving why this is too hard or why I
[14:50] couldn't follow through tonight or why
[14:52] >> Me, too.
[14:54] >> We get into a space
[14:56] of proving ourselves instead of trying
[14:58] to improve ourselves.
[15:00] >> And by the way, Mel, the people we're
[15:02] trying to prove ourselves to are
[15:04] sometimes other people and defending,
[15:07] but sometimes it's ourselves. It's why
[15:09] didn't I get that right? Why didn't I
[15:11] know how to do that? Why am I so bad at
[15:14] this? Why can't I be as good as
[15:17] so-and-so at it? Why isn't my life like
[15:20] other person's?
[15:21] >> Mhm.
[15:22] How do you get out of that trap?
[15:24] >> One thing I like to say is that when I
[15:27] just say I study the psychology of good
[15:29] people, it's a little bit of uh gotcha
[15:34] because
[15:36] my work focuses on helping people let go
[15:40] of being good people. Whatever that
[15:42] means to them. Going to the gym, being
[15:44] nice to neighbors, whatever it is
[15:47] that you need to let go of it in order
[15:50] to become better people.
[15:52] >> What does that mean? Cuz aren't we
[15:53] supposed to be good people?
[15:54] >> Of course we are. And the problem is as
[15:57] soon as we decide we're a good person,
[15:59] we're trying to prove it.
[16:02] Instead of trying to improve towards it.
[16:04] And this game never ends. Life goes on
[16:08] day after day throwing new challenges,
[16:10] new curveballs at us. Even if you
[16:12] thought you did it today, you crushed it
[16:14] today, tomorrow's a new day.
[16:16] And so getting in a space where we
[16:19] realize this is an ongoing process for
[16:22] ourself and for other people. We're not
[16:24] trying to prove we've already figured it
[16:26] out. We're trying to improve on an
[16:28] ongoing basis. We're not trying to see
[16:30] ourself as good people.
[16:32] >> Mhm.
[16:32] >> Especially things that are kind of got
[16:34] some moral charge to it like um are you
[16:38] nice to your children? Are you a good
[16:40] parent? Like those things have a lot of
[16:42] moral charge to them and we feel like we
[16:44] should just know how to do it and you
[16:47] should just know how to do it.
[16:50] That's not good enough. These are skills
[16:55] and skills require practice and
[16:57] improvement. So, good people things we
[16:59] tend to view as like it's a belief you
[17:02] should have. It's a value you should
[17:04] have. This This is how can you not know
[17:06] how to do that? How can you Why do you
[17:07] keep interrupting me? If you cared, you
[17:09] wouldn't interrupt me. That's like a you
[17:12] Mhm. as opposed to you're trying to get
[17:15] better at it and it's a skill that
[17:17] you're working on.
[17:18] >> Well, I can see, certainly, how I hold
[17:22] this over other people's head.
[17:23] >> Yeah.
[17:24] >> That if you're not doing the things that
[17:26] I wish you would do, you're not a good
[17:28] person.
[17:29] >> Mhm.
[17:30] >> But if I turn it on myself first, cuz
[17:33] we're going to get to other people, and
[17:34] I think, okay,
[17:37] and I invite you as you're listening to
[17:39] really think about
[17:41] what have you held over your own head
[17:44] >> Mhm.
[17:46] >> in judgement,
[17:47] where you believe that if you got to
[17:51] every email today, you're a good person.
[17:53] Right. If your
[17:55] laundry is done, you're a good person.
[17:57] If your house is clean, you're a good
[17:59] person. If you can both be at work and
[18:02] volunteer at the school and take care of
[18:05] your parents, you're a good person.
[18:07] And you're saying that even trying to,
[18:11] quote, be a good person by some standard
[18:14] you've set is a recipe for feeling
[18:17] miserable about yourself, and you want
[18:19] us to switch our mindset to, "No, no,
[18:21] no, I'm improving all the time. I'm
[18:24] learning all the time. I'm doing the
[18:26] best I can all the time." Is that kind
[18:29] of more of the switch?
[18:30] >> That that's exactly it. So, the
[18:31] distinction I make is between being a
[18:33] good person and a goodish person.
[18:36] >> Okay.
[18:37] >> Being a good person is a static. You
[18:39] either are or you're not.
[18:41] >> Oh.
[18:42] >> A goodish person is someone who's always
[18:44] trying to get better. So,
[18:46] good person is trying to prove they're a
[18:48] good person, goodish person is
[18:50] constantly trying to improve. And so,
[18:52] the irony of it is even though goodish
[18:54] sounds like, "Okay, well, you're not as
[18:56] good as good,"
[18:57] goodish is actually better than good,
[18:59] because you're constantly getting
[19:00] better.
[19:01] >> And you're giving space for the days
[19:03] where you blow it.
[19:05] >> And you take ownership for it.
[19:07] >> Okay.
[19:07] >> So, there's a difference between giving
[19:08] space, like, let's say I I something
[19:11] that hurts someone. Let's say I use a
[19:13] term that I don't realize has some um
[19:16] offensive uh meaning or history to it,
[19:19] and I get called out on it.
[19:21] >> Yep.
[19:22] >> The idea here is not to let myself off
[19:23] the hook. Well, you know, they're too
[19:24] sensitive. Yeah. I'm goodish. You know,
[19:27] they're a little too sensitive. I'm
[19:28] sorry you know, you were so offended.
[19:30] The idea is for me to say, "Okay,
[19:32] there's something I didn't know. I'm
[19:34] going to own that I did some harm there
[19:37] that I didn't intend to."
[19:38] >> Yeah.
[19:39] >> It's not that I'm a bad person. It's
[19:42] that I didn't know, and now I'm going to
[19:44] learn, take ownership for that, and do
[19:46] better the next time. So, that ownership
[19:49] piece is really important. It's that I'm
[19:52] a goodish person who keeps trying to get
[19:54] better.
[19:55] And in doing that, I'm going to improve
[19:58] myself, not just prove myself.
[20:00] >> This is such a helpful framework
[20:03] because
[20:05] it really reveals to me, anyway, and
[20:08] probably to you as you're listening
[20:10] right now, how hard you are on yourself.
[20:12] >> Oh my gosh.
[20:13] >> And what impossible standards you hold
[20:16] yourself to.
[20:17] >> Right.
[20:18] >> And I would love to have you, Dr. Chu,
[20:21] just speak directly to the person
[20:24] who
[20:25] feels weary when you say constantly
[20:28] improving
[20:29] because there's a nuance to what you're
[20:31] saying. You're not saying you got to be
[20:34] constantly pushing yourself, constantly
[20:36] improving, constantly going to the gym,
[20:38] constantly trying to do better,
[20:40] constantly grinding it out because
[20:41] you're not doing enough.
[20:43] >> Right.
[20:44] >> It's a different
[20:47] mindset.
[20:48] >> Yeah.
[20:49] >> And I'd love to have you put that in
[20:51] context because
[20:53] I'd be willing to bet
[20:55] that
[20:57] the person that's listening and is
[20:59] making time to be with us right now is
[21:01] probably exhausted. They're trying very
[21:03] hard. They end the day feeling like they
[21:05] didn't do enough.
[21:07] And as you're starting to have this
[21:09] realization like I am that wow, I'm like
[21:11] probably the hardest person in the world
[21:13] on myself cuz I'm trying to be a good
[21:14] person.
[21:15] >> Right.
[21:15] >> But I've defined this in a way that's
[21:17] impossible to reach.
[21:18] >> Exactly.
[21:19] >> So I always have at least 10 things at
[21:22] the end of the day that make me feel
[21:23] like a bad person cuz I didn't get to
[21:25] them.
[21:25] >> Right.
[21:26] >> So how
[21:28] do you want us to really think about
[21:31] what that means going from proving that
[21:33] you're good
[21:34] >> Right.
[21:34] >> and then annihilating yourself at the
[21:36] end of the day that I'm bad, I didn't do
[21:37] this and ah ah ah
[21:39] versus this change in your mindset that
[21:42] you're just constantly trying to
[21:44] improve. Goodish.
[21:46] >> Exactly. Well, I think you just nailed
[21:49] it in what you said. So what's
[21:51] exhausting and we're all so exhausted
[21:54] for a lot of reasons right now,
[21:56] but what's particularly exhausting
[21:59] is feeling like a failure.
[22:01] >> Mhm.
[22:02] >> It leads to what psychologists call
[22:04] learned helplessness.
[22:06] If you
[22:07] keep trying, keep trying, keep trying,
[22:09] don't feel like you get anywhere,
[22:11] eventually you just learn that you're
[22:12] helpless and you give up.
[22:16] What we're talking about here is
[22:19] yes, something that takes a little bit
[22:21] of effort, but it's less exhausting.
[22:24] Because what you're at the end of the
[22:26] day evaluating is have I grown, not have
[22:30] I succeeded.
[22:32] >> Mhm.
[22:32] >> And that's a very different question.
[22:35] It's what have I learned today, not what
[22:38] did I get right or wrong today.
[22:41] Um
[22:42] you know, what
[22:43] you know, there's a million things I am
[22:45] I'm sure I've done wrong as a parent,
[22:46] but one of the things that I I'm happy
[22:49] that my husband and I implemented early
[22:51] on with our kids is when they would
[22:53] bring home any sort of grade or test or
[22:57] paper from school, we we would
[23:00] try really hard not to react to the
[23:02] grade.
[23:03] All we would say is
[23:05] do you understand what you did?
[23:08] Do you Do you understand what you got
[23:09] wrong? Did you try your best?
[23:12] And I think those are actually great
[23:14] questions for us all to ask ourselves at
[23:16] the end of a day.
[23:17] >> Mhm.
[23:18] >> Not did I get it right or wrong, it's
[23:21] what did I learn and did I try my best?
[23:24] >> What did I learn and did I try my best?
[23:28] That's a beautiful thing. So, two
[23:31] questions to ask yourself at the end of
[23:33] every day, what did I learn and did I
[23:35] try my best?
[23:36] >> Yeah.
[23:36] >> One of the things that we hear from our
[23:39] audience in 194 countries is one of the
[23:42] things that people struggle with the
[23:44] most is this sense of I'm not good
[23:46] enough.
[23:46] >> Right.
[23:47] >> And when I listen to
[23:49] you and what you're teaching us
[23:52] and that we hold moral standards over
[23:55] ourselves
[23:56] >> Mhm.
[23:56] >> and we judge ourselves every day. Let's
[23:59] just be honest. As you're listening
[24:00] right now, think about how many times
[24:02] you sent a text and then you say, "I'm
[24:04] an idiot. I shouldn't have written
[24:05] that." Think about how many times you
[24:07] walk out of a party and then you judge
[24:10] yourself for what you're wearing.
[24:11] >> Right.
[24:11] >> Think about how you leave uh work at the
[24:14] end of the day and you tell yourself you
[24:16] didn't do enough and yet you didn't even
[24:18] give yourself credit for the 100 emails
[24:20] and Slack messages and Zoom meetings
[24:21] that you attended.
[24:22] >> Right.
[24:23] >> And we're constantly
[24:25] holding this judgment over ourselves.
[24:28] So, no wonder we don't feel good enough.
[24:30] >> Right.
[24:31] >> Here's what it's also making me realize.
[24:34] If I'm this judgy
[24:36] of myself
[24:37] >> Yeah.
[24:41] >> I'm now realizing how judgy and
[24:44] opinionated I am of other people.
[24:46] >> Sure.
[24:46] >> [laughter]
[24:47] >> And if I have a standard for what Mel
[24:50] Robbins needs to do every day to be a
[24:53] good person
[24:54] >> Mhm.
[24:54] >> can you imagine what the list looks like
[24:58] for what my husband Christopher Robins
[25:00] needs to do to be a good husband.
[25:02] >> Right. Right.
[25:03] >> If the list is impossibly long that I
[25:06] hold over my own head,
[25:07] >> Right.
[25:08] >> imagine how long that list is for my
[25:11] husband.
[25:11] >> I mean.
[25:12] >> And my kids.
[25:14] And the people I work with.
[25:15] >> Right.
[25:16] >> And the stranger in front of me.
[25:17] >> So, I mean, the question is how do we
[25:20] help others change?
[25:22] >> how you said help.
[25:23] >> Yeah.
[25:24] >> Cuz I'm trying to force, manipulate,
[25:26] control, bribe, whatever it takes.
[25:29] >> So, one of the things we talk about
[25:31] >> [laughter]
[25:32] >> I mean,
[25:33] I'm all for bribery.
[25:35] Um
[25:36] My my my most effective parenting
[25:39] technique to date in a couple of decades
[25:43] has been that I
[25:45] sing to my kids.
[25:47] They don't
[25:47] >> How is that effective?
[25:49] >> Because I'm a terrible singer and they
[25:50] really don't like it. So, if I'm saying
[25:53] do this, do that, nobody's listening,
[25:55] I'm not getting anyone's attention, and
[25:57] then I I I start singing You Are My
[25:59] Sunshine. I could do it for your
[26:00] audience, but you'd lose listeners.
[26:02] >> it.
[26:03] >> You are my sunshine. See, it's
[26:05] >> Oh my Now I want to pick up my stuff and
[26:07] clean my room. Like, anything, Mom, but
[26:09] stop.
[26:10] >> keep going till they do the thing.
[26:11] >> god, I love this.
[26:12] >> good?
[26:13] >> Why does that work?
[26:14] >> It's a little bit of a pull versus a
[26:16] push, right? So, a push is saying go
[26:19] clean your room. A pull is creating the
[26:22] conditions in which you want to go clean
[26:24] your room.
[26:24] >> Cuz they want to leave you.
[26:25] >> Yeah.
[26:27] Oh, wow. So, and this is this is a big
[26:29] this is a big
[26:30] >> more like a repel, honestly.
[26:31] >> be. Yeah, that's fair. It's fair. Um but
[26:34] the push versus pull distinction is a
[26:36] really important one with um the
[26:38] leadership classes I teach. That
[26:41] when we're trying to influence others,
[26:43] sometimes we do need to push and that
[26:45] means we're directing them, we are
[26:47] telling them, we are forcing them.
[26:51] That's a push technique and we see it in
[26:53] the workplace, we see it in our
[26:54] families. It has its place.
[26:58] We tend to overuse it, though.
[27:00] And so,
[27:02] um
[27:03] pull techniques are more about creating
[27:05] conditions under which people want to do
[27:07] it on their own.
[27:08] >> Okay.
[27:09] >> As you said earlier, where I am the boss
[27:11] of me. Um where I might be asking
[27:14] questions, or I might be being a
[27:17] sounding board for someone else to let
[27:20] them create their own plan, their own
[27:24] desire and purpose around the thing that
[27:27] I want them to do. That almost always
[27:30] takes longer.
[27:32] >> Always.
[27:33] >> Than push. However, if it works, it
[27:37] lasts longer, as well.
[27:39] Realistically,
[27:41] what
[27:43] can you do to help someone you love
[27:44] change?
[27:46] Realistically,
[27:50] you can
[27:53] model change,
[27:55] you can invite change,
[27:59] you can reward change,
[28:03] but you cannot make anyone change.
[28:08] Let me give an example of what I mean by
[28:09] model change, because I think it's an
[28:11] important one.
[28:13] There's a a a story that may or may not
[28:17] be true, but it's sort of taken on epic
[28:19] fable proportions.
[28:22] Mahatma Gandhi, who was one of the um
[28:26] leaders of the non-violence movement in
[28:29] India
[28:30] in the 1940s,
[28:33] he became seen as the the person that
[28:37] people would go to for wisdom. And in
[28:40] this fable that's told about him,
[28:42] he would receive people who would travel
[28:45] by foot hundreds of miles to come to him
[28:48] and ask for his wisdom.
[28:50] And one day this family came to him with
[28:52] their young child and said,
[28:55] "Uh Gandhiji, we
[28:57] have traveled a long way. We've waited a
[28:59] long time for our turn. And we need you
[29:02] to tell our son who's withering away, he
[29:06] must eat food and not just sugar. All he
[29:10] will eat is sugar."
[29:13] Gandhi listened to them.
[29:14] He heard their request. He nodded with
[29:17] understanding. And then he said, "Please
[29:20] come back in 2 weeks."
[29:23] Not the response they were looking for.
[29:25] They had traveled a long way. They had
[29:27] waited a long time. Their son is
[29:29] withering away.
[29:30] Wait 2 weeks? Why?
[29:33] But out of deference, they go back home.
[29:36] 2 weeks later, they make the long
[29:38] journey. They wait the long time for
[29:40] their turn. They arrive at his doorstep.
[29:44] He they say, "Now, please Gandhiji, will
[29:46] you help us with our son? He's withering
[29:48] away. He's only eating sugar."
[29:50] And Gandhiji said to them,
[29:53] "My son, you must stop eating sugar."
[29:57] Well, that seems like a bit of a
[30:00] buzzkill after all of that. And they say
[30:02] to him, "Thank you. Thank you. But
[30:05] with all due respect, why couldn't you
[30:06] say that 2 weeks ago?" And he said,
[30:09] "Because 2 weeks ago, I was still eating
[30:12] sugar."
[30:16] So, the first step
[30:18] when we realistically want to help
[30:20] someone change,
[30:21] is to think about what we can do
[30:24] ourselves to model change.
[30:26] >> Mhm.
[30:26] >> Now, that doesn't mean
[30:29] I'm not trying to add to our exhausted
[30:31] plate.
[30:32] I'm just trying to say, in all the work
[30:34] we're doing ourselves,
[30:36] can we make it visible to others that we
[30:39] know this is hard?
[30:41] And this is what we are with. So, if
[30:44] your partner's snapping at the kids, you
[30:46] keep telling them, "Stop snapping at the
[30:48] kids." And they keep snapping, they get
[30:50] defensive,
[30:52] what if you talked about
[30:54] the struggles you have sometimes with
[30:56] snapping at the kids? What if you
[30:57] mentioned that you noticed when you have
[31:00] a snack in the car before you come in
[31:03] to the house, it helps you take a
[31:05] moment.
[31:07] What if you talked about
[31:09] the the things that you've tried that
[31:12] haven't worked and how embarrassed you
[31:14] are by the fact that they haven't
[31:16] worked.
[31:18] >> That's a super helpful
[31:20] uh story and example.
[31:23] The second thing that you said that we
[31:24] could do is invite change. What does
[31:26] that look like? What's an example of
[31:27] inviting change?
[31:29] >> It's It's inviting means creating the
[31:32] conditions under which someone can do it
[31:34] and not feel self-conscious about it,
[31:36] right? So, let's say your partner says
[31:39] uh you know, doesn't say, but let's say
[31:41] they are going to go ahead and like, all
[31:44] right, so I'm not supposed to snap at
[31:45] the kids. I'm supposed to But even
[31:46] though I'm tired, um maybe what I'll do
[31:49] is try to tell story about my day, you
[31:52] know, or I'll try to
[31:54] um you know, try to be funny and like
[31:57] try to say something relatable,
[31:59] whatever.
[32:00] And when they do that, you know, they
[32:03] come off a little awkward. The story
[32:05] goes on too long. They They don't quite
[32:09] get it. The kids are tuning out.
[32:12] If I in that moment say, "Ugh,
[32:15] what are you doing? Like, this isn't
[32:17] helping."
[32:18] That's not inviting change because they
[32:20] just did something. They changed
[32:22] something. It didn't work,
[32:25] but they tried. So, inviting change is
[32:28] allowing the unlearning to work through.
[32:32] >> Oh. So, it's recognizing tiny attempts.
[32:36] >> Yes.
[32:37] >> And having grace.
[32:39] >> Yes.
[32:40] >> And
[32:42] just
[32:43] mhm
[32:43] kind of really understanding, oh, this
[32:46] is the unlearning process. That's
[32:48] stumbling through it.
[32:49] >> is what it looks like. This is what it
[32:51] feels like. They're not going to all of
[32:52] a sudden know how not to snap at the
[32:54] kids.
[32:55] >> And what does reward look like? You said
[32:56] that we could reward change. What does
[32:58] that look like?
[32:58] >> Absolutely. It's it in ways that yeah,
[33:01] depending on the situation, whether you
[33:02] do it publicly or privately, it's in
[33:05] whatever the love language is in your
[33:07] scenario.
[33:09] Telling them you noticed it. You saw it.
[33:12] You appreciate it. You know, if you
[33:14] think it worked, you know, sincerely
[33:17] tell them, I think that really worked.
[33:19] You know, I I saw I saw our daughter
[33:22] light up.
[33:23] >> Mhm.
[33:23] >> When you when you gave her that moment
[33:24] of attention.
[33:26] You know, thank you for hearing me. I
[33:27] know that was hard. You must be tired.
[33:29] >> You know, how do you know when your
[33:31] advice
[33:33] is a complete waste of time? For
[33:35] example, you have a friend that
[33:38] keeps dating people that disrespect her.
[33:41] >> Ooh.
[33:41] >> They're complaining about it or they
[33:43] complain about about their partner of
[33:45] eight years, but they never act on your
[33:48] advice.
[33:48] >> Right.
[33:51] Stop giving advice.
[33:54] >> Stop giving advice? How do you know when
[33:57] it's time to stop giving advice?
[33:59] >> Yeah. So, I like the wait rule.
[34:01] >> What's the wait rule?
[34:02] >> Why am I talking?
[34:05] >> Oh, wait. Why am I talking?
[34:08] >> Right. So, I didn't come up with this.
[34:10] I'm I I don't think we know exactly who
[34:12] came up with it. It was popularized by
[34:14] Michael
[34:18] The wait rule reminds us that when we're
[34:22] talking, especially if we're talking
[34:25] about someone else's problem,
[34:27] we're almost always talking at them.
[34:29] >> Mhm.
[34:30] >> Which means that agency, that sense of I
[34:33] am my own boss, we're taking it away.
[34:37] So,
[34:39] the first question is, have they even
[34:40] asked for our advice? Most of us want to
[34:43] help the people we love solve their
[34:46] problems. That doesn't necessarily mean
[34:48] they asked us for help to solve their
[34:50] problems.
[34:52] And another great little
[34:55] rule of thumb I've heard is to ask
[34:58] people when we feel tempted to solve
[35:01] their problems.
[35:02] Um this one probably won't work in the
[35:05] workplace, but I think it works really
[35:06] well in families. Do you want to be
[35:08] heard,
[35:10] hugged, or helped? Mm. And then my
[35:13] addition to that rule is or high-fived.
[35:17] Heard means they need to vent. In your
[35:19] example, the partner needs to vent.
[35:22] Hugged means they need to feel loved.
[35:27] Helped they need my advice and they want
[35:30] they're asking for it.
[35:32] And now the high-five piece that I've
[35:34] added is sometimes
[35:37] a lot of us want people to notice how
[35:40] hard we're trying, how exhausted we are,
[35:42] how well we're doing. And
[35:45] especially as women, we're not really
[35:48] given permission to just say that's what
[35:50] we need. So, we kind of keep dropping
[35:52] the breadcrumbs hoping someone will
[35:54] high-five us.
[35:56] So, heard, hugged, helped, or
[35:57] high-fived. So, friend is complaining,
[36:00] "They're never taking my advice." My
[36:02] first question is, did they ever ask for
[36:04] it?
[36:05] The advice.
[36:07] The second, let's say they are asking
[36:08] for the advice and they're not taking
[36:10] it.
[36:11] To name that. Say, "I know you've asked
[36:13] for my advice. I'm really flattered by
[36:15] that and I'm always happy to offer it,
[36:17] but I got to ask you a question.
[36:20] When you ask for my advice,
[36:22] do you mean you want to be helped or do
[36:25] you want to be heard?
[36:27] Do you want to be hugged? Are you in
[36:29] pain? Do you want to be high five for
[36:31] the fact that you're a great partner and
[36:33] you're not getting the attention you
[36:35] want at home? Can you tell me a little
[36:36] bit more about what you mean by advice?
[36:41] >> This is so helpful and I love those four
[36:44] categories because I think when I'm in
[36:46] distress or I'm emotionally flooded, I
[36:48] often don't know what I need.
[36:50] >> Yeah.
[36:50] >> And so when somebody asks those four
[36:52] things, I might even surprise myself.
[36:55] One mistake I've absolutely made is when
[36:59] somebody comes to me and they're feeling
[37:01] down,
[37:02] >> Yeah.
[37:03] >> I make the mistake of trying to
[37:05] immediately lift them back up.
[37:06] >> Ah.
[37:07] >> And
[37:07] >> Me, too.
[37:08] >> often times when people come to you in a
[37:10] moment when they're down, they just want
[37:12] a hug.
[37:12] >> They want a hug.
[37:13] >> They don't want the pep talk. They don't
[37:15] want to be told to be strong. They don't
[37:17] want you to fix this. They want to be
[37:19] reassured and comforted.
[37:21] >> Yeah.
[37:21] >> And so I also like the heard, hugged,
[37:24] helped, and high five because it stops
[37:26] me
[37:26] >> Yeah.
[37:27] >> from stepping over a line.
[37:28] >> I like that a lot. Yeah, absolutely. The
[37:31] The um The funny thing is when I've
[37:34] asked this question,
[37:36] I would I mean, I haven't actually
[37:38] counted, but I think 90% of the time the
[37:41] answer I receive is heard.
[37:43] >> Let's talk about difficult people.
[37:44] >> Okay.
[37:45] >> talk about somebody who is always
[37:48] crossing the line.
[37:50] >> Yeah.
[37:50] >> I have someone in my life that just has
[37:55] this love of the jab.
[37:58] >> Mm.
[37:59] >> I don't know if it's conversational
[38:01] style, but
[38:03] I bet as as you're reflecting upon
[38:06] difficult people in your life that there
[38:07] are just some people that when they
[38:11] are there, you're on edge.
[38:12] >> Yeah.
[38:13] >> You're just waiting for it. You're
[38:14] waiting for the political remark. You're
[38:16] waiting for the dismiss. You're waiting
[38:18] for them to say the passive aggressive
[38:20] thing.
[38:21] >> Mhm.
[38:22] >> How do you handle somebody
[38:24] >> Yeah.
[38:24] >> that is insulting or difficult?
[38:28] >> I think a lot of people can relate to
[38:29] what you're describing and and sometimes
[38:31] it's it's at the level of um you're
[38:34] dreading the family gathering because
[38:38] that uncle isn't is is going to jab and
[38:41] often jab down, punch down. And by the
[38:44] way, they want you to take the bait.
[38:46] Now, listen, we do need to be careful
[38:49] because that person may be doing real
[38:51] harm to people in the room and to people
[38:53] out in the world. But what we can do in
[38:55] that moment with that person is rather
[38:57] than giving them more oxygen by going
[39:00] back and forth,
[39:01] >> Yes.
[39:01] >> we can take some of the oxygen out in
[39:03] the moment.
[39:04] >> the oxygen out?
[39:05] >> So he says the thing, you can say
[39:08] Ouch.
[39:09] Or whoa. Or
[39:13] My gosh, you don't look old enough to be
[39:15] that old-fashioned. Now, realize what
[39:18] I'm not doing is inviting an argument.
[39:21] What I am doing is telling everyone else
[39:23] in the room, that's not okay what we
[39:25] just heard.
[39:26] >> The only thing that I've ever said is
[39:28] something that I once heard Jefferson
[39:30] Fisher say and it works like a charm,
[39:31] which is, "Did you actually mean to say
[39:33] that out loud?"
[39:34] >> I like that, too.
[39:35] >> Because
[39:37] you are cuz what are they going to do?
[39:38] Like, "Yes, I meant to sound like a
[39:40] dickhead." And like, you know, like
[39:42] >> [laughter]
[39:42] >> And no, they there's kind of a weird
[39:45] silence thing that happens and then you
[39:47] get up and clear the table.
[39:48] >> Yeah.
[39:49] >> But often I just find it's not worth the
[39:50] response.
[39:51] >> It's another example of
[39:54] your your not giving them oxygen, but
[39:57] you're also not endorsing it.
[39:59] >> Let's talk about um dealing with
[40:02] somebody who gets really defensive.
[40:03] >> Okay.
[40:04] >> The kind of person that is so hard to
[40:07] talk to because the second you try to
[40:10] give feedback, whether it's at work
[40:12] >> Yeah.
[40:13] >> or it's to one of your adult siblings,
[40:16] >> Right.
[40:17] >> They immediately
[40:19] get defensive. What do you do in that
[40:21] situation?
[40:22] >> So, this happens all the time.
[40:25] I get defensive when I get feedback.
[40:27] I've noticed other people get defensive
[40:29] when I give them feedback. Sometimes the
[40:31] problem isn't the defensiveness, it's
[40:33] the feedback.
[40:35] >> Oh.
[40:36] >> And so let's
[40:37] >> Wait, but I want them to be the problem.
[40:39] I don't want my feedback to be the
[40:40] problem, doctor.
[40:41] >> Trust me, they are the problem. But
[40:43] let's figure out how we can show them
[40:45] that they're the problem.
[40:47] So,
[40:48] feedback is a word that's often
[40:51] um
[40:52] equated with adjective. So, what do I
[40:55] mean by adjectives? Uh I might say to
[40:57] someone, "Your work isn't polished
[41:00] enough."
[41:01] Or it's not thorough enough. Polished
[41:04] and thorough are adjectives.
[41:06] >> Mhm.
[41:08] >> There's a lot of ways to understand what
[41:11] polished means. They might think that
[41:13] means there's no typos. They might think
[41:15] that means there's like good animation
[41:18] in their slides. They might think that
[41:20] means the way they talk to the customer.
[41:23] They might think that means that they're
[41:25] wearing certain clothes to work. I mean,
[41:27] polished could mean a lot of things.
[41:30] And so, when we give feedback that's in
[41:33] adjectives,
[41:34] it's really easy for other people to
[41:38] become defensive because it's easy for
[41:40] them to argue with it.
[41:42] >> Oh, so how do you give feedback that
[41:44] somebody can argue with?
[41:46] >> The feedback that's hard to argue with
[41:48] and that's actually easier to act on, so
[41:51] if you're looking for a change that
[41:52] you'll actually get the change you want,
[41:54] is it focuses on the behavior.
[41:57] So, I might say,
[41:58] "I've noticed that on the slides
[42:02] there are uh inconsistencies
[42:06] in the the way we refer to the client's
[42:09] business. On one slide, it said they
[42:13] were in the
[42:14] hospitality business, and in the other
[42:16] slide it said food and beverage.
[42:19] To me, that looks like we haven't gone
[42:21] through and done a thorough proofread.
[42:24] It's not polished enough.
[42:26] So, do you see how once I laid out the
[42:30] actual behaviors, it's indisputable. I
[42:32] just, you know, it says hospitality
[42:34] here, it says food and beverage there.
[42:36] It's a specific behavior, and now I can
[42:39] say that's what I mean by it's not
[42:42] polished enough.
[42:43] >> Oh, you know what I I felt as you were
[42:45] saying that?
[42:45] >> What's that?
[42:46] >> I started to feel defensive.
[42:47] >> Oh, really?
[42:48] >> Because [laughter]
[42:50] >> Say more.
[42:51] >> [gasps]
[42:51] >> Because I was realizing I am guilty
[42:56] of speaking in adjectives, especially
[42:58] with my family.
[42:59] >> Yeah.
[42:59] >> Because I get emotionally flooded
[43:02] >> Yeah.
[43:03] >> when I see particularly
[43:05] just things that are a mess.
[43:07] >> Yeah.
[43:08] >> And often times when we're giving
[43:10] feedback, we're already in a state where
[43:13] we're annoyed.
[43:14] >> Right.
[43:15] >> And
[43:16] that's how I can see that things could
[43:20] become very vague. I'm going to give you
[43:21] an example.
[43:22] >> Let's do it.
[43:23] >> So, I think I did a
[43:24] pretty good job on this.
[43:26] >> Okay.
[43:26] >> So, we have a a bunk room at our house
[43:30] in Vermont, and one of the things that I
[43:31] love more than anything is that our son
[43:33] Oakley, who's 21, is home from college,
[43:35] and he has
[43:36] he and his best friends from high school
[43:38] have a
[43:39] window washing and odd job business.
[43:42] It's year four, shout out Sparkle Boys.
[43:44] And
[43:46] they are employing like 15 kids. Like,
[43:48] they're cranking it out, and they hang
[43:50] out at our house a lot, and I freaking
[43:53] love it.
[43:53] >> Okay.
[43:54] >> And
[43:55] I am very clear with them, I'm not your
[43:57] maid.
[43:58] >> Mhm.
[43:58] >> I'm not your mother.
[43:59] >> Mhm.
[43:59] >> You're always welcome here, and the
[44:00] fridge is stocked, and the door is open,
[44:02] and the arms are open for a hug, but if
[44:05] you turn me into your maid
[44:08] >> Right.
[44:09] >> or your mom
[44:09] >> Right.
[44:10] >> you are not going to be welcome here.
[44:11] >> Right.
[44:12] >> I work so hard that I do not appreciate
[44:15] coming home from a long day of work and
[44:18] seeing this place looking like a frat
[44:20] house.
[44:20] >> Right.
[44:21] >> And so the other day and they've
[44:23] normally been really really good but the
[44:24] other day I came home from being gone
[44:26] for 8 days
[44:27] >> Mhm.
[44:28] >> and I walked into the bunk room
[44:30] and it looked like they had been hazing
[44:33] people in there. Like I I
[44:35] >> I was just like
[44:36] >> And we all know how hard bunk beds seems
[44:38] like the most amazing thing in the world
[44:39] until you have to make a bunk bed.
[44:40] >> Oh, right.
[44:42] >> So normally the old Mel volcano, okay?
[44:46] would pick up the phone and call Oakley
[44:49] and be like
[44:51] >> Yeah.
[44:53] >> And I took a deep breath
[44:55] and I put them all on text and I said,
[44:58] "Hey guys, just got home."
[45:00] >> Yeah.
[45:01] >> And um
[45:03] wanted to share something with you.
[45:07] I took a photo
[45:08] of the beds
[45:10] and the towels on the floor and the wet
[45:12] bathing suits on the couch
[45:14] and I said
[45:16] "Does this look like
[45:19] leaving this in the way you found it?"
[45:23] >> Mhm.
[45:24] >> "Is this representative
[45:27] of what you're capable of in terms of
[45:31] taking care
[45:33] >> Yeah.
[45:33] >> of this house in the way that I've asked
[45:37] >> Right.
[45:38] >> you to do?"
[45:39] >> Right.
[45:40] >> No, no, no.
[45:42] "We can do better." And I said, "Great,
[45:44] because after being gone for 8 days and
[45:46] working as hard as I do, walking in here
[45:49] and seeing that you've left this for me
[45:51] >> Yeah.
[45:52] >> doesn't feel good."
[45:53] >> Right.
[45:55] Mel, that's amazing.
[45:57] >> I don't know how I should like had the
[46:00] restraint.
[46:02] >> Yeah. I can even show you all the
[46:03] photos. Like cuz once you see it, you're
[46:05] like, "Oh my god, we left the house like
[46:06] that?
[46:08] Uh-oh, she was coming home today?" Like
[46:10] if it was like that for 7 days, I don't
[46:11] care, but not on the day that you're not
[46:13] that dumb,
[46:14] >> [laughter]
[46:14] >> right? Like
[46:15] >> So, what you did was another important
[46:18] dimension of feedback is to state your
[46:21] expectation. Good feedback at the
[46:24] workplace or at home includes a few
[46:26] elements. One, people have to know what
[46:28] good looks like, what the expectation
[46:30] is. So, either they have to know in
[46:32] advance or if they didn't know in
[46:34] advance or you didn't you didn't know in
[46:36] advance how to convey it, once you saw
[46:38] what it wasn't, you were able to convey
[46:40] it. Then, they have to know what you
[46:43] saw, heard, the actual behavior, that
[46:47] was the photo for you. The photo was the
[46:49] behavior. So, you stated the
[46:51] expectation, you you gave the the what
[46:55] you observed in the behavior, and then
[46:57] you described the impact it had.
[47:00] And from what I heard in your example,
[47:02] there was no adjective, and you didn't
[47:03] need one.
[47:05] The adjective is the least useful part.
[47:07] >> Yes. Let Let me give you another
[47:09] example. Let's say
[47:11] um you are having trouble
[47:13] >> Mhm.
[47:14] >> getting your family to help.
[47:16] >> Mhm.
[47:16] >> Whether it's help with the laundry or
[47:19] when you walk in the front door, don't
[47:21] just disrobe and drop it all right at
[47:24] the entry. There are cubbies.
[47:26] >> Right.
[47:26] >> If you have a mudroom for a reason, can
[47:28] the shoes go in it? The cubbies?
[47:31] >> [laughter]
[47:31] >> Like you you you you know what I'm
[47:32] saying? Like can you can you get the
[47:35] laundry moving so that it doesn't sit
[47:38] after you do the wash and then rotten
[47:41] there and stink? Like can we get some
[47:43] help? How do you get your family to
[47:47] help?
[47:48] >> I use this when I'm teaching conflict
[47:51] resolution and negotiation classes to my
[47:53] MBA students, and I use this one in my
[47:55] own family and my marriage.
[47:57] It's the one to 10 rule.
[48:00] The question to ask myself and ask
[48:02] someone else, particularly when we
[48:04] disagree on something or I'm asking
[48:07] something of them, like in your example,
[48:10] asking them to do certain things around
[48:11] the home,
[48:13] is on a scale of 1 to 10, how important
[48:16] is this?
[48:17] >> Mhm.
[48:17] >> 10 is the most important.
[48:19] Sometimes what I'm asking for when I'm
[48:22] asking them to hang the things up,
[48:25] the the the hanging up is not the 10.
[48:29] It's the me feeling heard is the 10.
[48:33] Me not being expected to do it for them
[48:37] is the 10.
[48:38] Sometimes maybe the hanging up is a 10.
[48:40] Maybe there are people coming over and
[48:43] no way am I going to be judged, cuz you
[48:45] know I am going to be the one who's
[48:47] judged when someone comes to our home,
[48:49] by this is how I maintain a home. So
[48:53] maybe it is a 10 in that moment. But
[48:55] it's not always a 10. And I think
[48:57] sometimes the people around us
[48:59] hear everything as a 10 from us.
[49:02] >> And if everything's important, nothing
[49:04] is.
[49:04] >> Exactly. Exactly.
[49:06] >> So you stop and ask yourself, one to 10,
[49:09] >> Yeah.
[49:09] >> and what number am I acting on?
[49:11] >> Exactly.
[49:12] >> No, I mean it. Which like when
[49:14] >> Yeah. And and if you and the person in
[49:17] your family are having a discussion
[49:19] about this thing on the ground right
[49:20] now,
[49:21] on a one to 10 scale, how important is
[49:23] it to them that it be dropped on the
[49:26] floor?
[49:26] >> I assume it's a one, and that's why I'm
[49:28] offended and it's a 10. Because it's
[49:30] important to me, but it's not important
[49:32] to them. And if it were important to
[49:33] them, they would pick it up. Do you see
[49:35] what I'm saying? And this gets back to
[49:36] the
[49:36] >> No, but how important is it to them to
[49:38] not listen to you?
[49:39] >> Oh.
[49:42] Probably a 10.
[49:43] >> Mhm.
[49:43] >> Because their value might be, I'm my own
[49:46] person and you don't tell me what to do.
[49:47] >> Right.
[49:48] >> I've been at college for 2 years, so I'm
[49:50] now an adult.
[49:51] >> And this is my space.
[49:53] And when I come home from college and I
[49:55] don't feel like this is my space
[49:56] anymore. I don't feel like these are my
[49:58] rules anymore.
[50:00] Needs something to be mine.
[50:02] >> Oh, you're really good. And also, if
[50:04] I've been working all day in the hot sun
[50:08] washing disgusting windows in other
[50:10] people's houses and I've had to pull it
[50:12] together and manage people. I'm freaking
[50:14] exhausted and I don't care about your
[50:15] damn house cuz I'm coming in.
[50:16] >> Right.
[50:17] >> And I want to relax for a minute.
[50:18] >> Right.
[50:19] Right.
[50:20] >> Oh, wow. I'm arguing about
[50:22] the thing on the floor.
[50:26] But
[50:27] we're completely missing each other.
[50:29] >> Maybe.
[50:29] >> Cuz the 10 that's important for me is
[50:32] hey, I need help around here.
[50:34] And the 10 that's important for the
[50:35] person you're trying to change are
[50:37] completely different topics.
[50:38] >> I mean, what we do in my with my husband
[50:40] and I is if it's if if both of us are
[50:43] between one and seven, then whoever's
[50:46] the higher number wins and like why are
[50:47] we even talking about this? Life is
[50:48] busy. Let's move on.
[50:50] And if either of us is an eight, nine,
[50:53] or 10, there's something to be
[50:55] understood here and discussed. It's
[50:57] worth our time. It's worth my, you know,
[50:59] effort.
[51:00] >> I love that. How do you know when you're
[51:03] supporting somebody versus enabling
[51:05] them?
[51:06] >> Oh, gosh. Oh, Mel. This feels like a
[51:09] dream sequence because I feel like this
[51:11] is a central growth area of my life and
[51:14] like adult children. Is that what you're
[51:15] about to talk about? Yes. You know,
[51:17] you're the universe is trolling me and I
[51:19] I've learned so much from your work on
[51:21] this very issue.
[51:23] So, let me let me step a little bit
[51:25] outside of my like expertise as a social
[51:29] psychologist and more into just my lived
[51:31] experience of seeing how the science of
[51:33] growth works.
[51:34] My definition of hell on earth
[51:37] is watching someone I love suffer
[51:41] and not being able to do anything about
[51:43] it.
[51:43] Being helpless.
[51:46] I honestly don't think there's any
[51:48] greater pain in this world.
[51:52] And I I know that a lot of people have
[51:54] been in this position where in an
[51:57] instant
[51:59] we would take their pain. We would take
[52:01] their suffering. We would take their
[52:02] distress.
[52:04] But all we can do is bear witness to it.
[52:07] And that's what feels like hell.
[52:12] Sometimes
[52:15] what we think is supporting other people
[52:18] is us trying to deal with that feeling
[52:21] of hell.
[52:22] >> Mhm.
[52:22] >> We're just trying to lower
[52:26] the pain of it
[52:28] by doing something.
[52:31] And you know,
[52:34] while it might make us feel slightly
[52:36] less helpless, it's probably
[52:40] making things worse.
[52:42] >> Why does it make it worse?
[52:44] If you're providing the financial
[52:46] support or you're giving a place to live
[52:49] or you're
[52:51] doing the things that we want to do
[52:52] because we're trying
[52:54] I think you're right to feel like we're
[52:56] doing
[52:57] everything we can.
[52:59] >> Right.
[53:00] >> To support this person, but actually
[53:03] that soft cushion of support is keeping
[53:06] the person from hitting the edge
[53:09] >> Mhm.
[53:10] >> of their experience.
[53:13] >> Right.
[53:14] >> And truly having to reckon with
[53:17] the consequences of the decisions that
[53:20] they're making
[53:22] and the patterns that they haven't been
[53:25] unwilling to to unlearn yet or haven't
[53:29] been able to.
[53:30] >> Yeah. I think that the way you described
[53:33] it is exactly my sense of it as well.
[53:36] I'm also centering my own needs in that
[53:38] moment. I don't mean to. I love this
[53:41] person so much. That's why this is
[53:42] happening. But by me doing the things
[53:45] that make me feel better, it's a little
[53:47] harder for me to see what they need.
[53:49] >> Have you figured out and cuz I know this
[53:52] is deeply personal for all of us.
[53:54] >> Mhm.
[53:55] >> And nobody can actually tell you
[53:58] when is the appropriate time to keep
[54:00] doing and offering support and paying
[54:03] for things and stepping in because
[54:06] that's the thing that makes you feel
[54:08] >> Mhm.
[54:09] >> like you're doing what you can do and
[54:11] that's the thing that is the only part
[54:14] of this that you can control.
[54:15] >> Right.
[54:16] >> And when is it that you say, I recognize
[54:19] that this person does not want to
[54:21] change, they are not ready to change
[54:24] and I am a participant at this point
[54:28] >> Right.
[54:29] >> up the dynamic and the only thing I can
[54:31] do now
[54:33] is remove myself from the dynamic
[54:36] >> Right.
[54:36] >> so this person has both the dignity of
[54:38] their own experience and they also have
[54:41] to feel the consequences of
[54:43] the way they're moving through life.
[54:45] >> Right.
[54:46] >> It's so personal and I just I'm like I
[54:49] don't know if there's any kind of
[54:52] sliding scale ruler like self-reflection
[54:55] to be able to really wrestle with
[54:58] yourself.
[54:59] >> I think though just recognizing that
[55:04] we know it's hard for us to grow and
[55:06] then we've talked about having empathy
[55:08] for how hard it is for others to grow.
[55:11] Sometimes
[55:13] it's hard
[55:14] for us to let others grow.
[55:17] >> I love that. Um you and two practices
[55:21] Dr. Chugh
[55:23] in your classes
[55:24] you call it shout-outs and own-its.
[55:27] >> Yeah.
[55:27] >> So what is shout-outs and own-its and
[55:29] how can I and the person listening apply
[55:32] this to their life?
[55:32] >> Absolutely. Yeah, so one of the classes
[55:35] I teach is about how to be a good boss
[55:37] and one of the things um in that sort of
[55:40] leadership type of um class that we talk
[55:43] a lot about is
[55:45] noticing what people are doing well and
[55:49] expressing it to them. Now, this is
[55:51] leadership. I'm talking about how to be
[55:52] a good boss in the workplace, but it
[55:54] applies broadly. We are leaders in our
[55:56] families, we're leaders in our
[55:57] communities, we are leaders in our
[55:59] religious organizations.
[56:01] And so,
[56:02] what we're doing at the end of this
[56:04] class is asking um for volunteers to
[56:08] shout out a classmate.
[56:10] Again, it's often things that the things
[56:13] that the shout-out uh I really
[56:15] appreciated when
[56:17] Mel asked that question because I was
[56:19] thinking it, too, but I was really
[56:21] afraid to ask it.
[56:22] >> Mhm.
[56:23] >> Uh and the person who asked the question
[56:25] may not have thought twice about asking
[56:27] it. Or they may have felt a lot of
[56:28] anxiety about asking it. And now that
[56:30] they hear that someone else was also
[56:32] sitting with that question, they feel
[56:33] less anxiety that was that question a
[56:35] dumb question.
[56:36] >> You know what I'm going to do? I'm going
[56:37] to take a photo of those bunk beds when
[56:39] those boys make it, and I'm going to put
[56:41] it in the group chat, and shout it out.
[56:42] Great job, guys.
[56:43] >> I love it. I love it. And then a own it
[56:46] is um taking ownership for a way in
[56:49] which, you know, you didn't you didn't
[56:51] kind of get it right that day. And by
[56:52] get it right, I mean
[56:54] someone might say, um
[56:56] "Listen, I want to own it. I had my
[56:58] phone out a lot during class today. I
[57:00] just had trouble being engaged, and I'm
[57:02] really sorry, and I know it kind of
[57:04] affects everyone else when someone takes
[57:06] their phone out." Or "I was late today.
[57:09] My small group had to get going without
[57:11] me, and then spend time catching me up.
[57:13] I didn't manage my time right. I'm
[57:14] sorry."
[57:15] >> I love the own it.
[57:16] >> I love the own it. And I I have to say,
[57:17] like, in class, one thing I was thinking
[57:19] about this coming semester is we get a
[57:21] lot more shout-outs than own its, which
[57:22] makes sense. I mean, there's a lot more
[57:23] good than than not going on, but
[57:26] I think I need to do more own its myself
[57:29] to sort of motivate more own its for my
[57:32] students, as well, which is another
[57:34] thing we know about being a good boss is
[57:37] uh
[57:37] we want to be
[57:39] bringing out the best in others, but
[57:42] doing it in a way that shows we're
[57:43] taking accountability for when we're not
[57:45] at our best.
[57:46] >> Well, one of the things that you've
[57:47] taught us is that
[57:49] when it comes to trying to change other
[57:51] people,
[57:52] >> Mhm.
[57:52] >> you can model, you can invite and
[57:54] reward, and
[57:57] shout-outs are really I'm really good at
[57:59] shout-outs. I notice all the things
[58:01] going well
[58:03] to a fault.
[58:03] >> Okay.
[58:05] >> And
[58:06] if you over-compliment people,
[58:09] >> Right.
[58:10] >> then you create an inability
[58:13] to hear criticism.
[58:14] >> Oh.
[58:14] >> Or to hear feedback. And so, the own-it
[58:17] piece
[58:18] as a parent,
[58:20] as a colleague, as a friend, owning it
[58:25] where you didn't show up, where you
[58:28] flubbed something, where you
[58:31] threw your crap in the entry after
[58:33] yelling at everybody else,
[58:35] >> Yeah.
[58:35] >> um
[58:37] to me, that's modeling
[58:40] >> Yeah.
[58:41] >> change and accountability.
[58:42] >> I like that a lot.
[58:44] >> too.
[58:44] >> I like that a lot.
[58:45] >> That's one of the That's a big thing I'm
[58:46] taking a lot of things from this
[58:47] conversation, but I am going to pull
[58:50] that and own it.
[58:52] >> I love it. I love it.
[58:53] >> as a parent, as a friend, and I think we
[58:56] may do shout-outs and own-its here in
[58:58] our meetings because
[59:00] >> I feel like the muscle of owning it when
[59:03] things aren't going well
[59:05] is something we can work on.
[59:07] >> Nice.
[59:07] >> Um so, thank you for that.
[59:09] >> Absolutely.
[59:09] >> Um for the person who's listening, you
[59:12] have poured so much into us. I mean,
[59:15] when I think about what you've taught us
[59:17] about the difference between knowing
[59:19] better and doing better.
[59:21] >> Yeah.
[59:22] >> This subtle, but serious moment of
[59:25] needing to unlearn behavior before you
[59:28] can change it.
[59:29] >> Right.
[59:30] >> Oh my gosh, the two questions to end
[59:32] every day.
[59:33] The tool after tool after tool that you
[59:37] gave us from pushing to pulling to the
[59:40] one to 10 rule. There was just so much
[59:43] here.
[59:44] Um
[59:45] if the person listening
[59:48] takes just one action,
[59:51] >> Mhm.
[59:51] >> what is the most important thing to do
[59:54] after you have listened to this episode
[59:57] other than sharing it with everybody
[59:58] want to change. I love it. We're going
[1:00:00] to let Dr. Chug change them.
[1:00:02] >> I would say I bet everyone in your
[1:00:06] audience considers themself a lifelong
[1:00:08] learner.
[1:00:10] What would it mean to be a lifelong
[1:00:11] learner and a lifelong unlearner?
[1:00:15] >> Oh.
[1:00:16] Like simply by listening
[1:00:18] >> Yeah.
[1:00:18] >> today
[1:00:19] >> Yeah.
[1:00:20] >> and investing the time in yourself
[1:00:22] you learned so much
[1:00:24] and having that I'm a lifelong learner,
[1:00:28] I need to unlearn some things to
[1:00:30] continue to grow and to not prove
[1:00:33] anything,
[1:00:34] but as you said to be improving
[1:00:36] >> Right.
[1:00:37] >> the way that I feel about myself and the
[1:00:38] way that I approach life and the way
[1:00:40] that I connect with other people.
[1:00:41] >> Right.
[1:00:42] >> Amazing. Dr. Chug, what are your parting
[1:00:44] words?
[1:00:45] >> [sighs]
[1:00:46] >> I would say that hope and energy lies in
[1:00:49] growth.
[1:00:50] To just lean into that. There's all this
[1:00:53] pressure on us. We're so exhausted.
[1:00:55] We're being pulled in every direction.
[1:00:58] And sometimes that makes us feel like
[1:01:01] ah, there's no more to do. I cannot do
[1:01:03] anymore. And I promise you
[1:01:06] that when we allow ourselves into this
[1:01:08] space, this space of growth
[1:01:11] of improving rather than proving, we
[1:01:13] will feel more hope and more energy.
[1:01:16] >> You promised at the beginning, Dr. Chug,
[1:01:18] that we would feel lighter.
[1:01:19] >> Mhm.
[1:01:20] >> And we would feel a little bit more in
[1:01:25] control.
[1:01:26] >> Yeah. And I feel it after talking to
[1:01:29] you.
[1:01:29] >> You do?
[1:01:29] >> Yeah, I I want to thank you because I
[1:01:32] learned so much today.
[1:01:35] It was the conversation was not exactly
[1:01:38] how I thought it would be even though we
[1:01:40] put a tremendous amount of upfront
[1:01:43] >> Yes.
[1:01:43] >> research in
[1:01:45] to get to the point to have the
[1:01:46] conversation.
[1:01:47] >> Yes.
[1:01:48] >> But what you really did for me today and
[1:01:51] I I bet I'm speaking on behalf of you as
[1:01:53] well as you're listening is I really
[1:01:55] reflected
[1:01:57] on myself.
[1:01:58] >> Mhm.
[1:01:58] >> I thought that I was going to come in
[1:02:00] here and get all the tips and tricks to
[1:02:02] diffuse the jerks out there and
[1:02:04] manipulate people to change and have
[1:02:07] everybody stop draining my energy and
[1:02:09] what I realized is I'm actually draining
[1:02:10] my own energy.
[1:02:11] >> Yeah.
[1:02:12] >> I'm the one who's holding this
[1:02:13] impossible standard over myself.
[1:02:16] And then to fulfill my own needs to feel
[1:02:19] good, I'm pressuring everybody else and
[1:02:22] there's a very different way you can go
[1:02:24] about this and you made us smarter about
[1:02:26] change, the reality of it and you also
[1:02:30] I think opened up this window of
[1:02:33] true compassion and empathy
[1:02:35] >> Mhm.
[1:02:36] >> by helping us understand the dynamics.
[1:02:40] And I also appreciate the tactics. So
[1:02:42] thank you.
[1:02:43] >> synopsis. Thank you, Mel. This was
[1:02:44] great. Thank you for being you and thank
[1:02:46] you for having me here.
[1:02:47] >> Oh my gosh, it's such a pleasure and
[1:02:49] thank you. Thank you for making the time
[1:02:51] to listen to this. I hope you found it
[1:02:54] as fascinating and as helpful. I hope
[1:02:56] you reflected on how hard you are on
[1:02:58] yourself, that good goodish balance,
[1:03:02] that whole distinction between
[1:03:04] constantly trying to prove that you got
[1:03:06] it all done and that you're good versus
[1:03:08] just
[1:03:10] exhale.
[1:03:11] What if you're just unlearning and
[1:03:13] learning and
[1:03:14] improving and don't forget those two
[1:03:16] incredible questions. I love those.
[1:03:19] Did I do my best today and what did I
[1:03:21] learn? You start asking that and I
[1:03:23] promise you you're going to learn a lot
[1:03:24] about yourself and you're going to grow
[1:03:26] into the person that you are meant to
[1:03:28] be.
[1:03:29] And in case no one else tells you, as
[1:03:30] your friend, I wanted to tell you that I
[1:03:32] love you and I believe in you and I
[1:03:34] believe in your ability to create a
[1:03:35] better life and the tools that Dr. Chew
[1:03:38] taught you today
[1:03:39] will help you create a better life and
[1:03:42] feel better in your life. I am certain
[1:03:44] of it. All righty, I'll see you in the
[1:03:46] next episode. I'll welcome you in the
[1:03:48] moment you hit play.
[1:03:49] All righty, thank you for watching all
[1:03:51] the way to the end here on YouTube.
[1:03:53] Thank you for sharing this with people
[1:03:55] in your life who you're trying to change
[1:03:57] or who are really hard on themselves and
[1:03:58] need to change the way that they talk to
[1:04:00] themselves. There was so much in this. I
[1:04:01] know that your life is going to get
[1:04:03] better and so I'm thrilled that you have
[1:04:04] this as a resource. All right, you want
[1:04:06] to see something next? This is the next
[1:04:08] episode of the Mel Robbins podcast
[1:04:10] you're going to love and I'm going to
[1:04:11] welcome you in the moment you hit
[1:04:12] [music] play.