Transcript
[0:01] When it comes to tech, when does a daily
[0:03] habit [music] cross over into addiction?
[0:06] >> This has crossed the threshold from a
[0:08] bad habit into a mental illness.
[0:12] >> I hear you've racked up over $30,000 in
[0:14] credit card debt. What do you think is
[0:16] at the root of your shopping addiction?
[0:19] >> I feel unfulfilled in many aspects of my
[0:22] life and instead of sitting with the
[0:25] discomfort, I resort to let me find
[0:29] something to buy.
[0:30] >> You spend as much as 7 hours a day
[0:31] playing video games.
[0:32] >> Mhm.
[0:33] >> And what is it about gaming for you?
[0:35] >> A lot of the game is rewarding, [music]
[0:37] but also low lows can happen all within
[0:38] a like 20-minute span.
[0:41] >> I hear that you've [music] lost more
[0:42] than $100,000
[0:44] on sports betting apps. I know you
[0:47] dropped out of three colleges, you were
[0:49] lying, you were stealing from your
[0:50] parents. [music]
[0:51] >> Yeah.
[0:51] >> What is it about online gambling that
[0:54] makes it so hard to quit?
[0:57] >> It's that adrenaline rush. It could be
[0:58] compared to someone who's addicted
[1:00] [music] to drugs, you know, chasing that
[1:02] original high.
[1:03] >> And now we've entered into
[1:05] >> addicted brain. We need to use more of
[1:08] our drug in more potent forms, [music]
[1:09] not to get high, but just to level the
[1:12] balance and feel normal.
[1:14] >> It's like the heroin addict coming off
[1:16] of the heroin.
[1:16] >> Exactly.
[1:17] >> And that is what is happening to your
[1:19] children when you try to take away the
[1:20] phone. That's what's happening to you
[1:22] when you can't get yourself or you
[1:23] [music] can't stop scrolling. You're
[1:25] just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling.
[1:26] >> Yes.
[1:28] >> Hi everybody. I'm glad to be here with
[1:30] you on the Oprah podcast. Over 3 million
[1:32] of you watched or listened to our
[1:34] episode on Gen Z tech addiction. Thank
[1:38] you for that. But as we're learning,
[1:40] it's not just one generation or group.
[1:44] Tech addiction can hook anybody and a
[1:47] lot of people are hooked right now at
[1:50] all ages, no matter your circumstances.
[1:52] And today on this podcast, I want to ask
[1:55] these questions. What's behind these
[1:58] addictions, what's happening inside our
[2:00] brains, are we defenseless or can we
[2:04] actually do something about it? I'll be
[2:06] talking to people who are addicted to
[2:07] gaming, online gambling, and even
[2:12] shopping. That's a biggie for a lot of
[2:14] women. But first, here's a quick look at
[2:16] some of the moments from that episode
[2:18] that struck a chord.
[2:19] >> So my name is Dr. Niesha Glenn. This is
[2:21] my son, Amir Jenkins. He started his
[2:23] gaming at about 5 or 6. When he got in
[2:26] high school, that's when I knew it was
[2:28] an addiction. He would not brush his
[2:30] teeth. He would not eat.
[2:32] >> Ooh.
[2:32] >> It was strictly
[2:35] >> Amir.
[2:36] >> nothing. No no no showers. In there on
[2:40] the game 24 hours a day.
[2:42] >> Can you take us to the point of
[2:44] understanding what that feels like when
[2:46] you're sort of caught up in the
[2:49] obsessiveness obsession of it?
[2:52] >> I would say you almost forget where you
[2:55] are, in a sense.
[2:57] Like when I play the game, I literally
[2:58] forget I'm in a house sometimes. It's so
[3:01] virtual, so intimate, and you know,
[3:05] it's free and a judge-free zone as well.
[3:08] >> Mhm.
[3:10] >> I was exposed to porn at the age of
[3:12] eight and have struggled with an
[3:13] addiction for the past 20 years.
[3:15] >> I'm married to a porn addict. He has
[3:17] struggled since he was 8 years old. I
[3:19] make it like my mission to watch his
[3:21] every move, which is so draining.
[3:23] >> Maddy and Kyle, thank you for being
[3:25] here. I know this is a hard thing to
[3:27] talk about, and I applaud your courage
[3:31] in being willing to speak about it
[3:34] because I hear this is really serious
[3:37] for a lot of people, like millions and
[3:39] millions of guys throughout the country
[3:43] and the world. How long have you all
[3:45] been married?
[3:46] >> We've been married 6 and 1/2 years.
[3:47] >> Mhm.
[3:48] >> So I would say like the last year is
[3:50] when I finally realized that like this
[3:53] addiction is so much deeper. And I'm
[3:54] like, how many times do I try to break a
[3:56] bad habit and I have to start over? And
[3:58] but this is an addiction.
[4:00] >> Well, I know hearing Kyle and Maddie's
[4:01] story really hit home for a lot of
[4:03] people. Addiction to adult content is
[4:06] impacting millions of families and
[4:08] relationships. Uh my team just checked
[4:11] in with them. Kyle has had a relapse and
[4:14] setback in his recovery, he says, and is
[4:16] now doubling down on his addiction
[4:19] classes. And Maddie told us that they
[4:22] still love each other and they're going
[4:23] to continue to fight for their marriage.
[4:26] Dr. Anna Lembke is back with us and
[4:29] she's a psychiatrist and chief of
[4:31] Stanford addiction medicine. And I just
[4:34] truly believe that her book is a
[4:35] must-read. It's called Dopamine Nation:
[4:38] Finding Balance in the Age of
[4:41] Indulgence.
[4:42] Welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Lembke.
[4:44] Thank you.
[4:45] >> Thank you.
[4:46] >> In Dopamine Nation, you write, I was
[4:49] moved by this, you say, the internet
[4:51] promotes compulsive
[4:54] overconsumption
[4:56] not merely by providing increased access
[4:59] to drugs, old and new, but also by
[5:02] suggesting behaviors that otherwise may
[5:05] never have occurred to us. I think
[5:07] that's what's happening to a lot of
[5:08] people. Can you give us an example of
[5:10] what you're seeing now that's new and
[5:12] different?
[5:13] >> Yeah, I mean, there's this real
[5:15] contagion effect where because the
[5:19] algorithm both feeds us videos and other
[5:23] content that we specifically search for
[5:26] and also novel content that we didn't go
[5:30] looking for.
[5:31] >> That's right. Things are just popping up
[5:32] on your screen.
[5:33] >> Right. And that's intentional, right?
[5:34] That that injection of novelty is
[5:37] intentional to stave off boredom, to
[5:39] increase watch time, to keep us clicking
[5:42] and swiping even when we don't want to.
[5:44] >> Wow.
[5:45] >> So, what ends up happening is there is
[5:47] this injection of very extreme content
[5:51] and this can impact behaviors because it
[5:55] makes people think of something that
[5:58] would never have occurred to them
[5:59] naturally. The you know, this is happens
[6:02] with drugs. So, kids seeing videos of
[6:05] other kids using like unusual drugs or
[6:08] synthetic drugs or drugs that they've,
[6:11] you know, concocted themselves and then
[6:14] kids wanting to go and try that. It it's
[6:16] especially
[6:18] prevalent with sexual content. So,
[6:21] sexual images, people behaving in ways
[6:24] for example, men choking women is not
[6:28] something that was, you know, would
[6:30] necessarily occur to somebody, but
[6:32] there's so much choking and other kind
[6:35] of sadomasochistic
[6:37] sexual content and and when when people
[6:40] go looking for adult content, that's
[6:42] actually the first content that they see
[6:45] or that's, you know, pushed to them that
[6:48] now you've got a lot of people engaging
[6:50] in sexual behaviors that are potentially
[6:53] harmful and dangerous potentially. Um
[6:56] so, it's this it's this kind of thing.
[6:58] >> When it comes to tech, which has
[7:00] infiltrated,
[7:02] you know, all of our lives, every part
[7:03] of life, every waking moment, I think
[7:05] people are confused on this. Like, when
[7:09] does a daily habit, a thing that we've
[7:11] been doing and think that we need to do,
[7:15] cross over into addiction?
[7:17] >> Addiction is a spectrum disorder, right?
[7:20] You can have mild, moderate, or severe
[7:22] addiction depending upon the severity of
[7:24] the symptoms, how many symptoms there
[7:26] are, but there can also be this
[7:28] pre-addicted state that you might think
[7:30] of as risky use or even a bad habit.
[7:35] Uh when I use the term addiction, I'm
[7:37] really saying this has crossed the
[7:38] threshold from being something that we
[7:41] would consider a a bad habit into
[7:44] something that we would really consider
[7:46] a mental illness. Again, characterized
[7:48] by these four C's: out of control use,
[7:51] craving, compulsive use, meaning that
[7:54] >> Mhm.
[7:55] >> I initiate use even against my desire
[7:57] and intention not to use, and then
[7:59] especially consequences. Plus tolerance,
[8:03] you know, which we've talked about,
[8:04] needing more potent forms over time to
[8:06] get the same effect, and also
[8:07] withdrawal. When I try to stop, I
[8:10] experience this physiologic response
[8:13] that then pulls me back into it.
[8:15] >> You you explain that pleasure and pain
[8:18] work like the balance of a seesaw.
[8:22] >> Right.
[8:22] >> How does that impact addiction? Explain
[8:24] that to our audience here.
[8:27] >> Yeah, so I used this extended metaphor
[8:29] of a balance to communicate to my
[8:31] patients, my medical students, what's
[8:34] happening in the brain as we go from
[8:36] sort of healthy adaptive use of a
[8:39] substance or behavior to unhealthy
[8:41] maladaptive addictive use. So, if you
[8:43] imagine that in your reward pathway,
[8:45] there's something like a teeter-totter
[8:47] that represents how we process pleasure
[8:50] and pain. When it tilts one way, we
[8:52] experience pleasure. When it tilts
[8:54] another, we experience pain. But there
[8:56] are certain rules governing this
[8:58] balance, and the first and most
[9:00] important rule is that the balance wants
[9:02] to remain level, which is what
[9:04] neuroscientists call homeostasis,
[9:07] sometimes referred to as set point. You
[9:10] referred to it in your wonderful book
[9:11] enough
[9:12] >> Enough point.
[9:13] >> as as at the enough point.
[9:15] >> it's it's it's it's the set point. That
[9:16] was Dr. Anya's word,
[9:17] >> Exactly right. Yeah, it's it's
[9:18] homeostasis.
[9:20] And our brains will work very hard to
[9:22] return to a level balance or homeostasis
[9:25] with any deviation from neutrality. So,
[9:28] for example, when we do something that's
[9:30] pleasurable uniquely for our brain, that
[9:33] releases dopamine. The balance tilts
[9:36] toward the side of pleasure. But no
[9:38] sooner has that happened than our brain
[9:40] will respond by down-regulating dopamine
[9:43] transmission, not just to baseline, but
[9:45] below baseline.
[9:46] >> So, you need more, more, more.
[9:48] >> Right.
[9:50] >> When we experience pleasurable
[9:51] activities like eating, exercising, or
[9:54] socializing, it triggers our brain to
[9:56] produce the feel-good chemical called
[9:58] dopamine.
[9:59] The cycle of addiction begins when
[10:01] addictive substances and behaviors cause
[10:03] massive dopamine surges, which causes
[10:06] our brains to produce less dopamine and
[10:08] at the same time absorb it less
[10:10] efficiently. This creates a dopamine
[10:12] deficit, which causes us to crave more
[10:15] and more of the substance or the
[10:17] behavior just to feel normal.
[10:20] >> And I like to imagine that process of
[10:22] neuroadaptation as these little gremlins
[10:24] hopping on the pain side of the balance
[10:26] to bring it level again. But, the
[10:28] gremlins like it on the balance, so they
[10:30] don't get off as soon as we're level.
[10:31] They stay on until we're tilted an equal
[10:34] and opposite amount to the side of pain.
[10:36] That is the come down. That's the
[10:38] craving, the hangover, the moment of
[10:40] wanting one more potato chip, or one
[10:42] more joint.
[10:43] >> in front of the pantry just grazing
[10:46] looking for what is the thing I can do
[10:48] to curb this anxiety that I'm feeling.
[10:51] Yes.
[10:51] >> And remember, our brain wants to get
[10:54] back to homeostasis. So, the fastest way
[10:56] to do that is to have another potato
[10:58] chip. Yeah. The problem is if we
[11:00] continue to consume our drug of choice
[11:02] over days to weeks to months to years,
[11:04] those gremlins start to multiply, and
[11:07] pretty soon we have enough gremlins on
[11:09] the pain side of the balance to fill
[11:10] this whole room. And now we've entered
[11:12] into addicted brain. We are in a chronic
[11:17] dopamine deficit state. Now we need to
[11:19] use more of our drug in more potent
[11:21] forms, not to get high, but just to
[11:24] level the balance and feel normal.
[11:26] >> And that is what is happening to your
[11:28] children when you try to take away the
[11:30] phone. That's what's happening to you
[11:32] when you can't get yourself or you can't
[11:33] stop scrolling.
[11:34] >> That's exactly
[11:35] >> scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. Okay.
[11:37] 80% of people coping with an addiction
[11:39] to online shopping are women. Listen to
[11:43] Safa's story.
[11:44] >> I have a shopping addiction, and over
[11:46] the past 3 years, I've racked up over
[11:48] $30,000 in credit card debt. 99% of it
[11:52] is shopping. I have said no to going out
[11:54] to dinner with friends, bought the
[11:55] cheapest thing at the grocery store,
[11:58] just so I could buy that one thing,
[12:00] whatever it was in the moment. It's
[12:01] really shameful because I'm in my
[12:04] mid-30s. I have a good job, and yet I'm
[12:06] struggling to pay rent because I keep
[12:08] spending more than I can afford. I was
[12:10] also scared to come on here and say this
[12:12] because it feels like I failed.
[12:15] >> Oh.
[12:15] >> Yeah. Oh, wow.
[12:17] >> Okay.
[12:17] >> Yeah.
[12:18] >> Um Safa joins us from Brooklyn.
[12:20] >> Hi, Oprah.
[12:21] >> What do you think is at the root of your
[12:23] shopping addiction?
[12:25] I would I was I was really interested to
[12:27] read about it because I go online and I
[12:30] it's a dangerous thing. Let me just tell
[12:32] you, it's a dangerous thing. And you get
[12:35] a little I I I guess I'm getting a
[12:36] little dopamine hit. Add to cart. So
[12:39] exciting. Add to cart again. Before you
[12:42] know it, I have three blouses for
[12:44] $24.99.
[12:46] >> of which you need, probably.
[12:47] >> of which I need. Oh, well, I didn't need
[12:48] that little crop top. So, [laughter] I
[12:50] have to $24.99. Then I'm like, what else
[12:52] can I get? So, does it feel like that?
[12:55] Is that what it feels like for you? You
[12:57] just get a little hit or
[12:58] >> Yes, it absolutely does feel like that.
[13:01] I for me, the root of my addiction stems
[13:04] from, I think, childhood. I've talked
[13:06] about this with my therapist, and
[13:09] uh my family moved to America when I was
[13:11] 6 years old, and we moved to a
[13:14] upper-middle-class white neighborhood,
[13:16] and I noticed all the kids would get
[13:18] gifts, Christmas gifts, birthday gifts,
[13:20] and I was getting like hand-me-downs,
[13:22] and
[13:23] uh
[13:24] you know, sharing a room with my
[13:25] siblings. And so, I think what I told
[13:28] myself in those moments is when you're
[13:31] older, you're going to be able to have
[13:33] these things. You're going to be able to
[13:34] fit in. So, now that I have a job, what
[13:39] I'm realizing that I do on a regular
[13:41] basis is I buy these things almost to
[13:45] satisfy my inner child, to tell myself,
[13:49] "Okay, you're you've you you've made it,
[13:51] right?"
[13:52] And so, that's become my coping
[13:55] mechanism. And additionally, I feel
[13:59] unfulfilled in many aspects of my life.
[14:02] And I think instead of sitting with the
[14:05] discomfort of the sadness or disgust or
[14:09] whatever I feel in myself, I resort to
[14:13] let me find something to buy because
[14:15] that's what I trained myself from a
[14:17] young age is what would make me happy.
[14:20] Uh so, I continue to do it. I get a
[14:22] little boost of dopamine. And then
[14:26] what I really feel is shame and guilt
[14:29] for doing it because I've accrued so
[14:31] much debt.
[14:32] >> Yeah. I hear you. You've racked up over
[14:34] $30,000 in credit card debt that you
[14:37] can't afford to pay.
[14:38] >> Yes, correct.
[14:39] >> So, you feel good in the moment where
[14:40] you're ordering it? Do you feel good
[14:42] then when you're You feel good when
[14:44] you're adding to cart.
[14:46] And then when it arrives, you you're
[14:47] ashamed.
[14:48] >> Yes.
[14:49] >> Yeah.
[14:49] >> A little So, I as soon as I buy it,
[14:52] instead of feeling happy, I feel immense
[14:55] amount of shame and guilt. And then when
[14:58] it arrives, I'm excited to open the box.
[15:02] And I've also been for years now hiding
[15:04] my packages from my partner. Not that he
[15:07] absolutely has no problem with it. He's
[15:10] encouraging of me doing the best for me
[15:13] to get over the addiction. But I think
[15:16] internally, I feel so much guilt that I
[15:19] will hide the packages. I will lie about
[15:22] it. So, I'll open it and then I'll feel
[15:24] guilt and shame again and then instead
[15:26] of dealing with it, I'll go and purchase
[15:28] something else.
[15:29] >> Dr. Lembke, what do you want to say?
[15:30] >> Gosh, so much here. Okay, so you started
[15:33] talking about some early childhood
[15:35] experiences that you think contribute
[15:38] and I think that's important to reflect
[15:40] on that. But, I think there's a danger
[15:43] of spending too much time looking for
[15:45] the root cause of addiction when there
[15:48] doesn't actually need to be an
[15:50] underlying reason other than we're
[15:52] living in an addictogenic world where
[15:55] shopping has become drugified. The
[15:58] medium of being online itself constantly
[16:02] sends us triggers to buy. That's the
[16:05] whole business model of
[16:07] >> You can't read an article without what
[16:09] we're all trying to do now is filter out
[16:11] all the ads as you're trying to like
[16:13] communicate with anything. Yes.
[16:15] >> Yes. And we get a little hit of dopamine
[16:18] not just when we're shopping, but just
[16:22] getting a reminder that we might be able
[16:25] to go shopping or that there might be
[16:27] something available, that actually also
[16:30] stimulates the brain's reward pathway
[16:32] and then sets up that state of craving
[16:35] that makes us want to go shopping.
[16:37] And the reason this is so important is
[16:39] because yes, it's good to talk about
[16:42] your childhood and some early
[16:44] underlying, you know,
[16:46] issues that might be contributing to it,
[16:49] but you could talk about that all day
[16:52] and it's not going to get at the root of
[16:54] the problem if you're still exposing
[16:56] your brain to this very addictive medium
[17:00] that's constantly triggering your brain,
[17:03] releasing dopamine and then leading you
[17:05] down this road, which is why
[17:06] self-binding strategies are so
[17:08] important. Self-binding is where we
[17:11] create literal and metacognitive
[17:13] barriers between ourselves and our drug
[17:15] of choice so we can press the pause
[17:18] button between desire and consumption.
[17:20] >> So, what does she need to do?
[17:21] >> So, what you need to do is you need to
[17:24] delete any shopping apps that you have,
[17:27] right? You need to possibly get rid of
[17:30] any online pay vehicles, anything that
[17:35] makes it easy and frictionless for you
[17:38] to buy something. It is is definitely
[17:41] something that you should eliminate. You
[17:43] know, online shopping or shopping
[17:45] addiction is a huge and growing problem,
[17:47] especially as you commented Oprah, among
[17:49] women.
[17:50] >> Mhm.
[17:50] >> So, these self-binding strategies are
[17:52] really key. If you really want to take
[17:54] it to the extreme, you will get rid of
[17:56] all of your credit cards, and you will
[17:58] only carry cash, and you will only buy
[18:01] in cash, and not online.
[18:03] And this seems extreme, but what my
[18:06] patients discover is that it's actually
[18:09] so much easier
[18:11] than expecting that you can constantly
[18:14] stimulate your brain, and then resist
[18:17] the pull that's created by all of these
[18:20] stimuli that are inviting us to consume.
[18:23] >> How does this sound to you, Subha?
[18:24] >> Yeah. That is that absolutely sounds
[18:27] like a great idea, something I've tried
[18:30] in the past
[18:31] is getting rid of my credit cards. What
[18:35] what happened is when I'm in a anxious
[18:40] mindset, or when I'm sad or depressed, I
[18:43] opened up new cards. So, usually when
[18:47] I'm aware of what I'm doing,
[18:50] I can continue to do it, and I can
[18:52] perform, but then as soon as I'm in a
[18:55] state where I can't regulate, and I'm
[18:57] anxious, or whatever it is, I
[19:00] I will get more credit cards, or I will
[19:03] subscribe to whatever it is, and I think
[19:06] I go back to that state. So, I guess my
[19:08] question is, when I'm feeling like that,
[19:11] how do I self-regulate, and how do I get
[19:13] myself to not do those things?
[19:16] >> Yeah. It's a wonderful description of
[19:18] the kind of dissociative state that we
[19:19] can go into vis-a-vis our drug of choice
[19:22] where we're just sort of like we're
[19:24] we're we're out of our minds essentially
[19:26] and we're just doing the behaviors. This
[19:29] is where self-binding matters because
[19:32] you know, if you if it's harder for you
[19:34] to get the next credit card or you just
[19:36] have to take the time to get a credit
[19:37] card, you might be able to come out of
[19:39] that state. But more importantly, what
[19:42] you need to have is a list of other
[19:44] healthier coping strategies for when you
[19:47] get anxious. And this is where I really
[19:50] recommend also engaging in what we call
[19:52] mutual help groups or self-help groups.
[19:56] The prototypical one is Alcoholics
[19:57] Anonymous, but Alcoholics Anonymous was
[20:00] founded 100 years ago and since then
[20:01] there has been a
[20:02] proliferation of self-help groups for
[20:05] almost every maladaptive behavior you
[20:07] can imagine and it can be an incredibly
[20:10] helpful and effective way for people
[20:12] >> one for shoppers since it's such a big
[20:14] thing.
[20:14] >> There absolutely is. And And you know,
[20:17] the 12-step model really works and it
[20:20] often involves getting a sponsor, um
[20:22] somebody else in the group and then then
[20:24] in those moments when you're, you know,
[20:26] anxious or feeling cravings,
[20:29] you have somebody to talk to. And that
[20:31] person's typically available 24/7 and
[20:34] they know exactly what you're going
[20:35] through. And I say to my patients, you
[20:37] know,
[20:38] as much as I care about you, I'm not
[20:40] available to you 24/7, but a 12-step
[20:43] sponsor, they would answer the phone in
[20:45] the middle of the night. So, I think And
[20:47] again, thinking about self-binding
[20:48] strategies, we massively coregulate
[20:52] based on who is around us and the
[20:54] behaviors they're engaging in. So, if
[20:56] you surround yourself with other people
[20:58] who understand this problem uniquely and
[21:00] that you can turn to for help, I think
[21:02] that will really help you in those
[21:04] moments.
[21:05] >> Cuz you're not alone. You are not alone.
[21:07] There are millions of people most of
[21:10] them women going through exactly the
[21:12] same thing that you're going through.
[21:14] And you're a smart woman.
[21:16] >> Yeah.
[21:16] >> You're an intelligent woman. You are a
[21:19] gracious and kind person.
[21:21] You will overcome this if you choose to
[21:25] do that.
[21:26] You know how to put all the things
[21:28] together to overcome this. It's It's
[21:30] It's It's a decision on your part right
[21:32] now as to how hard you want to work at
[21:36] it. But I know you can do it.
[21:39] >> You heard that from Oprah. So that's you
[21:41] heard it.
[21:41] >> Right. We [laughter] were raised to be
[21:43] able to do it.
[21:43] >> Yeah.
[21:44] >> You were raised to be able to do it.
[21:45] That little girl coming from another
[21:48] land, another place, another culture
[21:50] being in a surroundings where there were
[21:53] people that you didn't know, being able
[21:55] to manage yourself and succeed in that
[21:57] environment, you can do this. You can do
[22:00] this. This thing is not bigger than you.
[22:03] Okay?
[22:03] >> Thank you. I appreciate that.
[22:05] >> Yes.
[22:06] >> Oprah told me to stop shopping, so I
[22:08] stopped.
[22:09] >> It's absolutely
[22:10] >> Yeah, that's right.
[22:10] >> Thank you, Shavod. Thank you.
[22:12] >> Thank you. Thank you for having me.
[22:14] >> You know, gaming has become a way of
[22:15] life for children and teens and young
[22:17] adults, too. Here's a quick look at
[22:19] Deborah sharing her story.
[22:21] >> So I got a question for the masses, for
[22:22] the masses, for the people. Um
[22:25] What were we doing before we started
[22:27] playing video games and getting
[22:27] addicted? Okay. Because I feel like I
[22:30] feel like I haven't been playing video
[22:31] games that long.
[22:33] At the same time,
[22:35] what was I doing beforehand? I lose
[22:37] hours playing these things. I'm talking
[22:41] minutes on hours on days. And I've only
[22:45] been playing video games for like a
[22:45] year.
[22:48] I've been playing for a year. So
[22:50] question, what were we doing beforehand?
[22:52] How are we spending our free time?
[22:54] >> Yeah, that's my question for for you,
[22:56] Deborah, who joins us from Chicago.
[22:57] [laughter]
[22:59] What were you What were What were you
[23:01] doing before?
[23:02] >> [laughter]
[23:02] >> How do you answer that question? What
[23:04] were you doing before?
[23:05] >> Yeah, I feel like I had a collection of
[23:07] hobbies. I used to paint like with
[23:09] acrylics. I would sew a lot of projects,
[23:11] anything crafty and working with my
[23:12] hands
[23:13] was something I found appealing to me.
[23:15] >> And now you spend as much as 7 hours a
[23:17] day playing video games.
[23:18] >> Mhm.
[23:19] And I think it's still in some ways I
[23:21] use like a controller. So I still feel
[23:22] like it's still using my hands in some
[23:23] kind of way. So it's still the same same
[23:25] kind of crafting mindset that I have.
[23:27] But yeah, I'm spending a lot of hours, a
[23:29] lot of time of my day
[23:31] playing video games most of the time.
[23:33] >> And what is it about gaming for you?
[23:35] >> I think it's about two aspects that come
[23:37] to mind. The first is accessibility. So
[23:39] in comparison to my other hobbies, I
[23:41] require a lot of space and setup time.
[23:43] Given like with sewing, I need to get
[23:45] the fabric, I need to get the sewing
[23:47] notions. For when it comes to cooking or
[23:49] baking, I have to grab the ingredients,
[23:51] go to the store potentially to grab
[23:52] things I'm running low of,
[23:54] preheat the oven. And then when it comes
[23:55] to gaming, it's just like oh, I can just
[23:57] press the power button on my computer
[23:59] and just be on the game and it's much
[24:01] more accessible, I think.
[24:03] >> And I hear most of your friends are
[24:04] gamers that you've never even met in
[24:06] person.
[24:07] >> And so that's the second component is
[24:09] the social aspect. I think as you play
[24:11] these games, a lot of them are online
[24:12] games where you can meet other people
[24:14] from around the world even.
[24:15] So in the midst of learning how to play
[24:17] this game, I've met people online that
[24:18] like are now forming like a mini gaming
[24:20] community. And because of that, whenever
[24:22] someone's online, they'll send a message
[24:24] saying okay, do you want to get on and
[24:25] play? So they're like oh, like cool
[24:27] person, nice friendship that I'm
[24:28] building with this person. Of course,
[24:29] like I'll get on and bond over this game
[24:31] with you. So then there's like voice
[24:32] chat that you can talk to each other on
[24:34] and they encourage a lot of times for
[24:35] you to stay online even.
[24:37] >> So you're here to ask a question
[24:40] because you think that's become an issue
[24:43] for you, a problem?
[24:44] >> I have a question to see like the longer
[24:46] term impacts of it. I think because like
[24:48] I mentioned in the video, I've only been
[24:49] playing for about a year,
[24:51] but I'm starting to see differences in
[24:52] like how I carry myself but then also
[24:54] other people and I'm curious about
[24:56] are there any psychological or like
[24:58] emotional impacts when it comes to
[24:59] having extremely high highs cuz a lot of
[25:01] the game is rewarding for like doing
[25:03] good things in the game, but also low
[25:05] lows can happen all within a like
[25:07] 20-minute span. And I feel like knowing
[25:09] that, what kind of impact does that have
[25:11] on the body for extended periods of
[25:12] time?
[25:13] >> All right. Dr. Lemke, what do you want
[25:14] to say to Deborah?
[25:16] >> You know, one of the negative
[25:18] consequences of our addictive behaviors,
[25:22] especially our consumption of video
[25:24] games and other digital media, is the
[25:27] very important but subtle consequence of
[25:31] opportunity costs.
[25:33] And what I mean by opportunity costs is
[25:35] all of the other things we're not doing
[25:38] because we're spending all of our time
[25:40] online. And in your case, it's, you
[25:43] know, the crafts you're not doing, the
[25:45] people the friendships you might be
[25:47] making with people who actually, you
[25:49] know, live in and around where you live
[25:51] that you could meet up with in person.
[25:53] >> Human connection versus virtual
[25:54] connection. [clears throat]
[25:55] >> That's it. And it's not to say that
[25:57] there can't be virtual connection. You
[25:59] know, th- those can be meaningful
[26:01] connections, too. A lot of people talk
[26:03] about the community they build online
[26:05] and and that can be a community, but
[26:08] a you know, a po- potentially positive,
[26:09] but not when it replaces all of our
[26:13] other communities. So, I think that
[26:14] that's the first thing I want to say.
[26:16] And then in response to your question,
[26:19] I think you articulated it really well.
[26:22] It it appears to me that video games are
[26:25] your drug of choice because it didn't
[26:26] take you very long after you started
[26:28] playing that it was consuming many, many
[26:30] hours in your day, displacing other
[26:32] activities you used to enjoy, which gets
[26:35] to
[26:36] this hijacked brain. When we are
[26:39] constantly exposing our brains to this
[26:42] highly reinforcing intoxicant,
[26:45] one of the things that happens is we
[26:47] have this narrowing of our focus
[26:50] where other things are no longer
[26:52] enjoyable.
[26:54] They lose their salience. Salience is
[26:57] what makes something attractive to us.
[26:59] So now I could well imagine that if you
[27:01] tried to go back to doing your crafts,
[27:04] you would be frustrated. You would be
[27:05] bored. The rewards would be too delayed.
[27:09] And you know, in my sense is what you
[27:11] might want to do is take a break from
[27:14] video games for long enough to kind of
[27:17] reset your reward pathways so that the
[27:20] world can open itself up again to you.
[27:23] And the reason I always recommend 4
[27:24] weeks is because in the first 2 weeks,
[27:26] you will probably feel worse before you
[27:28] feel better. You'll be in withdrawal,
[27:30] right? Those gremlins on the pain side
[27:32] of your balance that have accumulated
[27:34] will smash you.
[27:35] >> the last time you were here and you said
[27:36] 4 weeks recommending a 13-year-old be
[27:39] off the phone for weeks. Everybody in
[27:40] the control room went, "Oh, that's never
[27:42] happening.
[27:43] >> [laughter]
[27:43] >> 4 weeks is too long." Cuz 4 weeks feels
[27:45] like, "How can I do that?" But if you
[27:48] don't do it for 4 weeks, go ahead.
[27:50] >> Yeah, what we see in clinical care and
[27:52] what the the published literature
[27:53] suggests is if you don't do it for long
[27:55] enough, all you experience is the
[27:57] withdrawal and you're like, "Well, wait
[27:59] a minute. I need this thing to not be
[28:00] depressed and anxious." You don't
[28:02] realize that the depression, anxiety,
[28:04] restlessness when you're not playing is
[28:06] a result of playing.
[28:08] Right? And you need to abstain from long
[28:11] enough to allow your reward pathways
[28:13] from homeostasis to reset itself.
[28:16] >> the heroin addict coming off of the
[28:17] heroin.
[28:18] >> Exactly.
[28:18] >> to go through the shakes first.
[28:20] >> to get out of that that state of
[28:22] craving.
[28:22] >> Okay, explore that, okay?
[28:24] >> Okay.
[28:24] >> Okay.
[28:25] >> Thank you so much.
[28:26] >> Thank you so much, Deborah. You may or
[28:28] may not be surprised to know that nearly
[28:30] 50% of men
[28:32] aged 18 to 49 have an online sports
[28:36] betting account. I didn't know this.
[28:38] >> Yeah, it's really a scourge.
[28:41] >> Here's another shocking stat. Nearly one
[28:44] in five people with a gambling disorder
[28:47] will attempt suicide. One in five.
[28:50] That's the highest suicide rate of any
[28:54] of the addictions.
[28:56] Now, Matt is joining us from
[28:57] Massachusetts. My team saw you nodding
[29:00] while Safwat was talking. I hear that
[29:02] you've lost more than a hundred thousand
[29:04] dollars on sports betting apps. A
[29:07] hundred thousand dollars that you could
[29:08] not afford
[29:10] to lose. So, tell us how this happened,
[29:13] Matt.
[29:14] >> Well, thank you for having me on.
[29:16] You know, my story starts when I was 14
[29:18] years old. That was the first That was
[29:20] when I placed my first bet. Uh my father
[29:21] had given me some money to bet on the
[29:23] Patriots and Seahawks Super Bowl. Um
[29:25] and you know,
[29:26] I won. I hit that first bet.
[29:29] Um and it was a feeling I never really
[29:31] felt before. I was sitting on my
[29:32] friend's couch. I've compared it to
[29:35] hitting a game winner in a basketball
[29:36] game while I was sitting on that couch.
[29:38] Um it was unbelievable. I Deep down, I
[29:41] kind of knew I loved gambling then.
[29:43] Um but it's it's difficult to gamble
[29:45] when you're a 14-year-old, right? It's
[29:46] you need help. You need adults to give
[29:48] you access or give you money.
[29:50] So, I really didn't start gambling
[29:52] consistence consistently until I turned
[29:54] 19. Uh I was a freshman college. I went
[29:57] to a small division three school in
[29:58] Boston to play basketball.
[30:00] I got hurt early on in my freshman year.
[30:02] Um
[30:03] and I decided I was done. I didn't want
[30:04] to play basketball anymore.
[30:06] So, you know, now I have all this free
[30:08] time. I have access to more money than
[30:10] I've ever had before. Um and I needed to
[30:13] fill that void. You know, that structure
[30:14] that basketball uh had given me my
[30:16] entire life was gone.
[30:18] So, you know, I gradually start
[30:20] gambling, you know, in the morning, in
[30:21] between class, and I start gambling
[30:23] during class.
[30:24] Um and it gets to the point where I'm
[30:26] gambling
[30:27] around the clock, you know, eight hours
[30:29] a day.
[30:30] Um I wasn't socializing. I wasn't
[30:31] exercising. Um
[30:33] you know, I was everything I was doing
[30:35] was to try to gamble more and more. You
[30:37] know, in the summertime, I would go home
[30:38] and I would save up money that was
[30:40] supposed to last me through my freshman
[30:41] year of college or my sophomore year of
[30:43] college.
[30:44] And within weeks of getting back to
[30:45] school, it was all gone. You know, I had
[30:47] no money. I was gambling thousands and
[30:49] thousands of dollars away in weeks.
[30:51] Um you know, 90 to 95% of it was online
[30:54] sports gambling. There was some casino
[30:56] games involved, but it was really online
[30:58] sports gambling.
[30:59] >> Help us to understand that. What is it
[31:01] about online gambling that makes it so
[31:04] hard to quit?
[31:06] >> I think it's because it can seem
[31:08] at the at the outset at the beginning it
[31:10] can seem so harmless, right? There's no
[31:12] There's not a lot of physical signs.
[31:14] You're not addicted to a substance.
[31:15] You're not addicted You're not having
[31:18] withdrawals, right? So, it can start
[31:20] harmless.
[31:21] But, it's that it's that adrenaline
[31:22] rush. At least for me, I got that
[31:24] adrenaline rush that was so strong.
[31:27] Right? I'm not a physical adrenaline
[31:28] junkie. I don't want to, you know, jump
[31:30] out of a plane or go bungee jumping.
[31:31] But, that adrenaline that I got from
[31:33] gambling,
[31:34] I loved it. I thrived on it.
[31:36] >> It's so interesting cuz I was reading
[31:38] your background and you shared with one
[31:40] of my producers that it it wasn't even
[31:43] the
[31:45] when you [snorts] were 14 years old and
[31:46] had that first experience
[31:48] that got you hooked. It was that you won
[31:52] Didn't you win $20,000 at one point,
[31:55] right?
[31:56] >> Yeah, when I was 19, um freshman in
[31:58] college, I put in I put $100 into a
[32:00] gambling account. Um and within 2 days I
[32:03] ran it up to $20,000. You know, and I'm
[32:05] At that age, I'm thinking that's all the
[32:07] money in the world, right? I'm taking
[32:09] pictures of it. I'm sending it to
[32:10] everybody I know. Like, look what I just
[32:12] did. Look at this.
[32:13] And 2 days later it was gone. You know,
[32:15] I didn't I didn't withdraw a single
[32:16] penny.
[32:17] >> You didn't even You didn't even get to
[32:19] spend it.
[32:20] >> No. No. Not even a little bit. I gambled
[32:23] it all the way.
[32:24] And I think a part of me was chasing
[32:25] that
[32:27] that first big hit ever since. You know,
[32:28] it could it could be compared to someone
[32:30] who maybe addicted to drugs, you know,
[32:33] chasing that original high. Yeah. I was
[32:35] chasing the first big win.
[32:37] And I I had to surpass it. But I never
[32:39] did. I never did.
[32:40] >> Never did and still haven't surpassed
[32:43] it.
[32:43] >> No, I have not.
[32:44] >> No. What do you want to say, Dr. Limkey?
[32:46] >> Oh my gosh, so much. Um well, first of
[32:49] all
[32:49] >> Why is gambling so addictive and what's
[32:51] going on in the brain there? What's
[32:52] going on in Matt's brain with that?
[32:54] >> Right.
[32:54] >> Yeah.
[32:55] >> So, monetary rewards again light up that
[32:59] same reward pathway as drugs and
[33:01] alcohol, release dopamine, um work
[33:04] through essentially the same trajectory
[33:08] as addiction to drugs and alcohol, where
[33:10] we start using usually to have fun or to
[33:12] solve a problem. If it works for us, we
[33:14] go back again and again. And eventually,
[33:17] if we cross over into addiction, we're
[33:19] now marshaling all of our available
[33:20] resources to get the drug, use the drug,
[33:22] recover, and use again. Gambling is a
[33:26] very well-recognized,
[33:29] very potentially severe and
[33:31] life-threatening addiction, just like
[33:33] addiction to drugs and alcohol. And
[33:35] >> And and and and also, did you hear me
[33:37] say this earlier, Matt, that one in five
[33:40] people who are gamblers end up suicidal?
[33:44] >> Yeah. I- it
[33:45] >> Yeah.
[33:45] >> Yeah.
[33:46] >> I can understand why, cuz you end up
[33:47] losing everything. You're chasing,
[33:49] chasing, chasing, chasing, chasing. You
[33:51] lose everything. You're betting, you
[33:53] know, you lose your family, you can't
[33:54] pay your rent, you can't pay the car's
[33:56] taken away, everything. Yeah, you lose
[33:58] everything.
[33:59] >> And it's so inexplicable from the
[34:01] outside because you just feel like
[34:03] >> Well, stop.
[34:04] >> Just stop. Like just stop.
[34:05] >> Yeah.
[34:06] >> But what really happens is that people
[34:09] who get addicted to gambling
[34:11] are ultimately not even interested in
[34:15] the monetary wins. That That's how it
[34:17] begins. But what it eventually becomes
[34:20] is the desire to be in this alternative,
[34:24] self-created universe where all of the
[34:26] rest of your problems fall away and
[34:28] you've created this world within a world
[34:31] where
[34:32] you can have the illusion again that
[34:35] you're controlling, that you're moving
[34:37] forward.
[34:38] >> That's why there are no clocks in
[34:39] casinos.
[34:40] >> Yes. Yes.
[34:41] >> And no windows.
[34:41] >> Yes, exactly. And there's some very
[34:43] interesting brain studies of
[34:46] pathological gamblers showing that
[34:49] there's a surge of dopamine when they
[34:51] win, just like there would be for
[34:53] someone who's not addicted to gambling.
[34:55] But with pathological gamblers, people
[34:57] who are addicted to gambling, they
[34:59] actually get a surge of dopamine when
[35:01] they're losing.
[35:03] And the understanding of that is that on
[35:06] some level, and this is a phenomenon
[35:08] called loss chasing,
[35:10] >> Yeah.
[35:10] >> people who are addicted to gambling want
[35:12] to lose on some level because then it
[35:14] justifies chasing chasing it. That's
[35:17] right, staying in the game longer. So it
[35:19] becomes this horrible self-fulfilling
[35:22] prophecy, an alternate universe, the
[35:25] real world falls away,
[35:27] the complete loss of perspective. And my
[35:30] heart just goes out to you, and also let
[35:32] me say the other millions of people
[35:34] around the world who are struggling with
[35:36] very severe gambling addictions, which
[35:39] by the way has never been easier.
[35:43] In the United States,
[35:46] online sports betting used to be illegal
[35:48] everywhere. In the last decade, it has
[35:52] become completely normalized, gone
[35:55] online, is incredibly accessible, and
[35:57] now even sports franchises are colluding
[36:01] with these sports betting corporations,
[36:04] encouraging
[36:06] people who watch sports to bet. It's
[36:08] terrible. And we see a 300 to 500%
[36:13] increase in calls to pathological
[36:15] gambling hotlines in states where online
[36:19] sports betting has been made legal.
[36:22] Which brings us, Oprah, back to this
[36:23] concept of access. One of the biggest
[36:26] risk factors for addiction is not your
[36:28] childhood trauma, you know, not
[36:30] something about you uniquely and and you
[36:33] know, lack of willpower. It's simple
[36:36] access to our drug of choice.
[36:39] >> And it doesn't mean you're a bad person.
[36:41] It doesn't mean that you had all these
[36:43] horrible things happen to you. Yes. And
[36:46] Matt, how common would you say this
[36:48] issue is among your peers, the young men
[36:50] you know?
[36:53] >> I think
[36:54] the issue it can be common. I would say
[36:56] most males that I've interacted with,
[36:58] you know, when I was in college or even
[37:00] now when there's a 26-year-old, they
[37:02] gamble on some level because it is so
[37:04] accessible like what Dr. Lunke said,
[37:06] right? My
[37:07] my gambling accelerated once it became
[37:09] legalized in Massachusetts. It was just
[37:11] so it was so quick. It was so
[37:13] accessible.
[37:14] >> Yeah.
[37:15] >> Um but I I think especially college-age
[37:18] males, right? They have all this freedom
[37:20] now and you know,
[37:22] it's so accessible. Everyone that I'm in
[37:25] contact with gambles on some level.
[37:27] >> Yeah, and and also not only accessible,
[37:29] but nobody would even know. I mean, if
[37:32] you're a drug addict, we can see it. If
[37:34] you're a food addict, we can see it. If
[37:36] you're, you know, even a shopping
[37:38] addict, there's all this, you know, all
[37:40] the things that
[37:41] uh Safa is hiding around her home.
[37:43] >> Right.
[37:44] >> Um
[37:45] what is your question for Dr. Lunke? Do
[37:46] you have one?
[37:48] >> I do. Um you know, I've been in recovery
[37:51] um from gambling uh since October of '24
[37:54] um and there's still a stigma around it.
[37:57] Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
[37:58] Yeah. Um
[38:00] you know, during that time I've also
[38:01] been sober. Um I don't identify as an
[38:03] alcoholic, but I was just curious, you
[38:05] know,
[38:06] how strong is the addict mind? Like
[38:08] someone like me who does not identify as
[38:10] an alcoholic, you know,
[38:13] am I prone to other addictions, either
[38:15] alcoholism, drug addiction, whatever it
[38:17] may be? You know, because I have an
[38:18] addict mind, I am addicted to gambling.
[38:20] Am I prone to other things as well?
[38:21] >> Yeah.
[38:22] So family and twin studies uh suggest
[38:26] that some people are innately more
[38:28] vulnerable to addiction than others. And
[38:31] that if it's not one thing, it'll be
[38:33] another. So, there are differences there
[38:36] in terms of, you know, how we come into
[38:38] the world and how likely it is that we
[38:40] will get addicted if exposed to our drug
[38:42] of choice.
[38:43] >> Mhm.
[38:44] >> Um for example, if you have a biological
[38:46] parent or grandparent with an alcohol
[38:48] addiction, you are more likely to
[38:50] develop an alcohol addiction even if
[38:52] raised outside of that substance-using
[38:54] home.
[38:54] >> Wow.
[38:54] >> So, genetics is a piece of this. Um the
[38:58] other part of your question is sort of
[39:00] like,
[39:01] you know, are all of these I I this is
[39:03] what I understood your question to be,
[39:05] that you know, how does the alcohol
[39:07] relate to the gambling? Cuz it's
[39:08] interesting that you gave both of them
[39:10] up, and I think that was really smart.
[39:13] Because um you know, we talked about
[39:15] drug of choice and how when we meet that
[39:17] drug of choice that's uniquely suited to
[39:19] our brain, it's like a lock and a key.
[39:21] But on the other hand, all reinforcing
[39:23] substances and behaviors release
[39:24] dopamine in our brain's reward pathway.
[39:27] And anytime we're using any substance or
[39:30] behavior, even if it's not our drug of
[39:32] choice, we're pinging that reward
[39:34] pathway and kind of setting ourselves up
[39:37] for relapse to our drug of choice. So,
[39:40] which is why very often when folks are
[39:43] trying to give up whatever their drug of
[39:45] choice is, we also recommend that they
[39:47] give up drugs that are adjacent to that
[39:51] drug. And somehow, I don't know if you
[39:52] got advice to do that or you
[39:53] instinctively knew that giving up
[39:56] alcohol would be important so that you
[39:58] wouldn't be disinhibited and more likely
[40:00] to gamble. And we see that all the time.
[40:03] You know, encouraging folks, give both
[40:05] of these things up to get together. So,
[40:06] for example, there's good data showing
[40:08] that people who try to quit drinking who
[40:10] smoke cigarettes, if they give up
[40:11] cigarettes at the same time, they'll
[40:13] have better outcomes for both. And I I
[40:15] that, you know, that relates to a lot of
[40:17] other sort of paired addictions as well.
[40:21] >> Can I ask you this, Matt? What got you
[40:23] into recovery? Was it that you had to
[40:25] you had to hit bottom? I know you
[40:27] dropped out of three colleges. You were
[40:29] going through a lot.
[40:30] >> Yes, it
[40:31] >> Your personality changed. You were
[40:33] lying. You were doing all kinds of
[40:35] things, stealing from your parents.
[40:37] >> Yeah, that's kind of what made me hit
[40:38] bottom, you know, I just I couldn't pay
[40:40] my bills anymore. I was gambling away my
[40:41] rent money, my utility money, and I
[40:43] started stealing from
[40:45] uh family members. Um you know, and I
[40:47] ended up forging a check in my parents'
[40:49] name
[40:50] to pay my rent. Um at that point, you
[40:52] know, our relationship is somewhat
[40:54] crumbling.
[40:55] And we had a conversation, and I ended
[40:56] up going to treat a treatment center
[40:58] called Herren Wellness in Massachusetts.
[41:00] Um you know, I spent 3 months there as
[41:02] an inpatient.
[41:04] >> Was it hard to come clean to your
[41:05] parents?
[41:07] >> Uh yes. Stealing from them it's you
[41:11] know, when I was doing it, it felt
[41:13] awful.
[41:14] >> Yeah.
[41:14] >> But as you know, as soon as you get that
[41:16] money,
[41:17] I'm off and running again gambling. And
[41:19] that that guilt and that shame is out of
[41:21] your mind until you lose again. And it's
[41:23] almost like you come back to reality.
[41:25] Um
[41:26] you know,
[41:27] but the thing that helped me was, you
[41:28] know, going to Herren Wellness, spending
[41:30] 5 months there in treatment. You know, I
[41:32] didn't have a phone for almost 2 months.
[41:33] I had no access to technology. You know,
[41:35] getting that break,
[41:37] um you know, just getting away from it
[41:39] really helped me, you know, center
[41:41] myself and really see how
[41:44] insane I was behaving and what I was
[41:45] doing to people around me.
[41:47] >> You got to step away from it.
[41:48] >> Yeah.
[41:49] >> To see yourself. Yes. Do you like who
[41:51] you are becoming?
[41:53] Or returning to yourself? Yes.
[41:55] >> Much it I feel like I was I'm returning
[41:58] to the person I was before I started
[42:00] gambling. You know, I can be
[42:02] a good son, a good brother, a good
[42:04] friend. You know, I can have honest
[42:06] intentions. And I think that's what I'm
[42:08] most proud of today.
[42:09] >> Wow. Well, thank you for sharing your
[42:11] story with us. Thank you. Thank you,
[42:13] Matt.
[42:13] >> with us and with the world and takes a
[42:16] lot of courage to be
[42:17] >> a lot of people listening are going to
[42:18] hear themselves and see themselves in
[42:20] you.
[42:21] And so we thank you for having the
[42:22] courage to share it, really.
[42:25] >> Well, thank you for having me on. It was
[42:26] an
[42:26] >> Continue success in your recovery. Go
[42:28] well with that.
[42:29] >> Yes, yes. Keep going.
[42:30] >> Go well with that. Go well
[42:31] >> I will. Thank you so much.
[42:32] >> Oprah, can I say one thing about moral
[42:34] compass and addiction?
[42:37] When people are deep in their addiction,
[42:41] they will often do things that are
[42:43] outside their moral compass. Matt talked
[42:44] about stealing from his parents, you
[42:46] know, incredibly shameful, so brave of
[42:48] him to admit that. But I think it's
[42:50] really important for us to understand
[42:52] that when the reward pathway gets
[42:54] hijacked by this drug of choice, we
[42:57] really are not ourselves. And we are
[42:59] really are vulnerable to doing things
[43:02] that are outside of our moral compass.
[43:05] Um, essentially because our brain comes
[43:07] to mistake our drug of choice, in Matt's
[43:10] case gambling, for a something that we
[43:13] need for survival. Dopamine is really
[43:16] our survival neurotransmitter. It says,
[43:18] "Approach this thing, get it. You need
[43:21] it to survive."
[43:22] So I just think it's really important
[43:24] for people to understand that, you know,
[43:27] we we would most of us
[43:29] do things that we're very ashamed of
[43:31] outside of our morality once we get into
[43:35] that hijacked brain state of addiction.
[43:39] >> That's an important thing to say, I
[43:40] think. And we I think a lot of people
[43:44] realize that when they have family
[43:45] members who are severe drug addicts,
[43:49] like your family member on crack cocaine
[43:51] or on heroin, you say, "Oh, that's not
[43:54] who I know them to be."
[43:56] >> Yes.
[43:56] >> But we don't think the same about it
[43:59] when it's shopping or gambling.
[44:02] Thank you for bringing that to our
[44:03] attention.
[44:04] >> You say by practicing radical honesty
[44:07] that my guest today are actually taking
[44:10] the first step in curbing their
[44:12] addictions. So, being able to be honest
[44:15] about what what is actually going on.
[44:17] >> Yeah.
[44:17] >> How does radical honesty work?
[44:19] >> So, radical honesty is where we make a
[44:21] commitment to tell the truth about
[44:23] everything.
[44:24] >> Yeah.
[44:25] >> And this is really important in
[44:26] recovery. In my experience, the patients
[44:28] who can get into and maintain recovery
[44:30] are the ones who make a commitment to
[44:32] truth-telling. Primarily because they've
[44:34] learned
[44:35] >> That's what Savat, Deborah, and Matt
[44:38] have all done today.
[44:39] >> by showing up and sharing in this way.
[44:41] Um but but it means that we can't even
[44:43] lie about like, you know, why we didn't
[44:45] want to go to the party or why we're 5
[44:47] minutes late for the meeting because
[44:48] we're all prone to lie. The average
[44:50] adult tells one to two lies per day.
[44:52] Usually it's small lies to cover up our
[44:54] own foibles or selfishness. But when we
[44:56] make this commitment to radical honesty,
[44:59] what happens is
[45:00] we are then also forced to see the
[45:03] behaviors for what they are.
[45:05] >> I would I would see how a commitment to
[45:07] radical honesty
[45:09] really creates another vibration for
[45:12] you. You're operating at another level.
[45:14] >> Yeah.
[45:15] >> Yeah, that's right. And it also
[45:16] importantly gets us out of this shame
[45:18] loop. We have heard as a recurring theme
[45:21] here how much shame people feel about
[45:23] their addictions. And and that is so
[45:25] true, so common. We all feel horrible
[45:28] shame at not being able to control these
[45:31] behaviors. And shame itself can
[45:34] perpetuate the addiction because it's
[45:36] such a horrible feeling that then we
[45:37] just keep using to not feel those
[45:39] feelings. So, a way to get out of this
[45:42] destructive shame cycle is to commit to
[45:45] being honest with another human being as
[45:47] these folks did today as a way, again,
[45:50] to become aware of our behaviors, but
[45:52] also to create that vulnerability that
[45:54] allows people to really connect with us.
[45:57] Right? It becomes a source of intimacy
[46:00] that then becomes its own source of
[46:01] positive and healthy dopamine.
[46:04] >> You are so good at helping us understand
[46:06] ourselves
[46:07] and understand our addictions. And if
[46:09] you want to know more,
[46:10] read Dopamine Nation. So, thank you so
[46:12] much, Dr. Lembke, for being here. And
[46:15] thank you to Matt and Safa and Debra for
[46:17] your radical honesty and sharing your
[46:19] stories.
[46:20] Dr. Lembke's New York Times best-seller,
[46:23] Dopamine Nation, is available wherever
[46:25] books are sold.
[46:26] See you next time. Go well.
[46:29] >> If you are among [music] the 57% of
[46:30] Americans who feel they are addicted to
[46:32] their smartphones, Dr. Anna Lembke's
[46:34] book, Dopamine Nation, is a must-read.
[46:37] She breaks down why [music] smartphones
[46:38] are so addictive and shares tangible
[46:40] ideas for how to manage your
[46:42] relationship with technology. You can
[46:44] buy her book by scanning the QR code you
[46:46] see on your screen right [music] now.
[46:48] >> Our listeners tell us that the podcast
[46:51] is resonating with you and is serving
[46:53] [music] as a bright spot in your day.
[46:55] That means a lot to me. So, here's the
[46:57] thing. I would really appreciate it
[46:59] [music] if you like and subscribe to the
[47:02] Oprah podcast on YouTube or wherever you
[47:04] podcast. [music] It's It's just a quick
[47:06] tap of the subscribe button and that way
[47:10] you won't miss an episode in your queue.
[47:12] [music] You don't have to pay anything.
[47:14] I know subscribe usually means you're
[47:15] paying something, but this time it means
[47:17] [music] you just are notified when
[47:20] there's something new. There are many
[47:21] more to come that we're excited [music]
[47:23] about. So, thank you for watching and
[47:24] listening.