The Three Macronutrientsof True Happiness

Transcript

[0:00] There are three macronutrients to the

[0:02] happiest life. The happiest people have

[0:05] enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning.

[0:08] Those are the three macronutrients. Now,

[0:10] that's important because it means you

[0:12] need to enjoy your life and and you need

[0:14] to know the difference between enjoyment

[0:15] and pleasure, which many people don't. I

[0:18] mean, the pursuit of pleasure is not the

[0:20] secret to happiness. It's the secret to

[0:21] rehab. Satisfaction, which is the joy of

[0:25] an accomplishment or an activity after

[0:27] struggle. And last but not least is

[0:29] meaning. The why of your existence. The

[0:32] happiest people have a bead on those

[0:35] three things and they pursue those three

[0:36] things really, really actively. Now,

[0:39] inside all three of those things,

[0:40] there's this funny thing called

[0:42] unhappiness. Inside each of the

[0:44] macronutrients of happiness, you find

[0:46] discontent and frustration and a lot of

[0:49] suffering. If you spend your life, which

[0:52] many people do today, trying to avoid

[0:54] unhappiness, trying to avoid and

[0:55] eliminate suffering, they will

[0:57] paradoxically miss their own happiness.

[1:00] Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast,

[1:02] where we [music] discuss science and

[1:03] science-based tools for everyday life.

[1:07] [music]

[1:09] I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor

[1:11] of neurobiology and opthalmology at

[1:13] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

[1:15] today is Dr. Arthur Brooks. Arthur

[1:18] Brooks is a professor at Vanderbilt

[1:19] University and a senior fellow at the

[1:21] Harvard Business School. Today we

[1:23] discuss what makes people truly happy

[1:26] and what this thing we call happiness is

[1:28] really all about. What I love about

[1:29] Arthur Brooks and what you'll realize

[1:31] today is that he looks to experimental

[1:33] data, philosophy, his and others

[1:36] experiences to arrive at specific

[1:38] questions that you can ask yourself to

[1:40] determine what matters most to you and

[1:42] what stands in the way of you actually

[1:44] getting those things. In fact, I must

[1:46] say this episode with Arthur Brooks is

[1:48] one of my favorite ever on the Hubberman

[1:49] Lab podcast. He is brutally honest. He's

[1:52] open. He's generous with knowledge that

[1:54] can help you, the listener. And he's

[1:57] incredibly humble. Thanks to Arthur, the

[1:59] conversation you're about to hear is one

[2:01] that I'm confident you'll want to think

[2:02] about, act on, and come back to

[2:04] periodically. I can say for myself with

[2:06] certainty that it's the conversation I

[2:08] wish I'd heard long ago. Arthur doesn't

[2:11] have all the answers, nor does he claim

[2:12] to, but I do think he has a sort of

[2:15] hardearned compass and a set of maps

[2:17] that we can all apply to have a much

[2:19] better and indeed a great life. Before

[2:21] we begin, I'd like to emphasize that

[2:23] this podcast is separate from my

[2:24] teaching and research roles at Stanford.

[2:26] It is however part of my desire and

[2:28] effort to bring zero cost to consumer

[2:30] information about science and science

[2:31] related tools to the general public. In

[2:34] keeping with that theme, today's episode

[2:35] does include sponsors. And now for my

[2:38] conversation with Dr. Arthur Brooks. Dr.

[2:41] Arthur Brooks. Welcome.

[2:43] >> Thank you, Dr. Andrew Huberman.

[2:44] >> We're only going to call each other

[2:46] doctor once at the beginning of this

[2:47] podcast. I'm so happy you're here.

[2:49] >> Me, too.

[2:49] >> Yeah. I consider you a friend. And um

[2:52] >> before we became friends, uh

[2:54] >> you were already my teacher. I was

[2:56] learning a ton from you. You have a a

[2:58] ton of wisdom. before you like step into

[3:00] your humble self and

[3:02] >> push aside. I just really want to

[3:03] highlight that because um that there are

[3:05] a lot of people influencing, educating,

[3:08] uh advising, coaching, etc. But uh you

[3:12] represent like really the the confluence

[3:16] of of ideas and practices and wisdom in

[3:18] ways that I and and people can really

[3:20] understand and benefit from. So really

[3:22] looking forward to having you here.

[3:24] >> Thank you. Likewise. I mean, what you've

[3:26] done over the past now 5 and a half

[3:28] years with this podcast

[3:29] >> just about. Yeah.

[3:30] >> You changed the whole way that educators

[3:33] can reach a lot of people. What we want

[3:35] as educators, science in the public

[3:37] interest. We want to touch people's

[3:38] lives. We want to lift them up and bring

[3:40] bring them together using science, using

[3:42] ideas, and how how how do you do that?

[3:45] You showed the way because what you did

[3:47] was you started this podcast within 6

[3:49] months. It was a big deal. And what you

[3:51] showed was a whole generation of people

[3:53] younger and older than you. I'm I'm

[3:55] older than you, that this is something

[3:58] that people can do, that we can reach

[3:59] people. You made that possible. You made

[4:01] that possible for me. It was an

[4:02] incredible gift.

[4:03] >> Oh, well, I'm honored and um thank you.

[4:06] Um I realized today that perhaps the

[4:08] toughest part about this conversation is

[4:09] going to be make sure that I keep you

[4:11] focused on you a little bit. You're so

[4:13] humble and uh but I appreciate the kind

[4:15] words and I consider us colleagues and

[4:17] friends. So you're known as uh the

[4:20] happiness guy.

[4:21] >> You know a lot about it, what it is and

[4:23] what it isn't.

[4:24] >> So let's start with um first principles

[4:26] there that people can really wrap their

[4:28] head around and apply. Uh what's the

[4:31] difference between unhappiness and

[4:33] happiness or is that even the right

[4:35] model?

[4:36] >> Yeah, most people start with the wrong

[4:39] model of what happiness actually is. So

[4:42] you can't define unhappiness until you

[4:44] can define happiness. And happiness is

[4:46] not what most people think. Most people

[4:47] conceive of happiness as a feeling, as

[4:50] as an emotion. And that's quite wrong in

[4:53] the same way that the smell of your

[4:54] turkey is not the same thing as your

[4:56] Thanksgiving dinner. The smell of the

[4:58] turkey is evidence of your Thanksgiving

[4:59] dinner. And the feelings of happiness

[5:01] are evidence of happiness. And when I

[5:03] first came into the field, I mean, I've

[5:05] been a behavioral scientist for 30

[5:06] years, but I started specializing in the

[5:09] science of human happiness exclusively.

[5:11] I wrote the first book of mine on this

[5:13] in 2008. But but I decided in 2019 after

[5:17] I took a hiatus from academia to go run

[5:19] a big think tank in Washington DC that I

[5:21] was going to specialize for the rest of

[5:22] my career in this thing that most people

[5:25] believe they wanted. I was going to

[5:27] really make it make it work. And there's

[5:28] of course happiness. People want to be

[5:29] happier. And the first thing that I

[5:31] realized is there wasn't a very good

[5:32] definition of happiness. It was just so

[5:35] [snorts] crazy. The thing that everybody

[5:36] wants, they can't quite define it. Uh, I

[5:39] can't put words to it, but I know it

[5:41] when I feel it. This is what I would get

[5:43] when I would ask my classes. So, what do

[5:44] you think you're studying? Or it's how I

[5:46] feel when I'm with the people that I

[5:48] love or or or doing the things that I

[5:50] enjoy. And I recognized that this would

[5:52] be completely inadequate in any other

[5:54] area of science. And so, I went back to

[5:56] try to find the right metaphor, the

[5:58] right parallel field to define

[5:59] happiness. And I felt that the field of

[6:02] nutrition did it really well by taking

[6:04] food and breaking it into macronutrients

[6:07] and micronutrients. So I asked myself,

[6:10] okay, what are the macronutrients of

[6:12] happiness? What are the fundamental

[6:13] elemental building blocks of happiness?

[6:16] And to figure that out, you go and you

[6:17] look at the people who have the highest

[6:18] life satisfaction that's measured in

[6:21] robust and proper ways, good construct

[6:23] validity, good science behind it. And

[6:25] what you find is doing kind of a factor

[6:27] analysis is that there are three

[6:29] macronutrients to the happiest life. The

[6:31] happiest people have enjoyment,

[6:34] satisfaction, and meaning. Those are the

[6:36] three macronutrients. Now, that's

[6:38] important because it means you need to

[6:40] enjoy your life. And and you need to

[6:42] know the difference between enjoyment

[6:43] and pleasure, which many people don't. I

[6:46] mean, the pursuit of pleasure is not the

[6:47] secret to happiness. It's the secret to

[6:49] rehab, right? And so, so you have to

[6:52] understand, right? For sure. And uh um

[6:55] satisfaction, which is the joy of an

[6:58] accomplishment or an activity after

[7:00] struggle. And last but not least is

[7:03] meaning, the why of your existence. The

[7:05] happiest people have a bead on those

[7:08] three things and they pursue those three

[7:10] things really, really actively. Now,

[7:12] inside all three of those things,

[7:14] there's this funny thing called

[7:15] unhappiness.

[7:16] Inside each of the macronutrients of

[7:18] happiness, you find discontent and

[7:21] frustration and a lot of suffering. And

[7:24] so the first or I should say the second

[7:27] uh uh misunderstanding about happiness

[7:29] is that it's incompatible with

[7:31] unhappiness. It's not. If you spend your

[7:34] life, which many people do today trying

[7:36] to avoid unhappiness, trying to avoid

[7:38] and eliminate suffering, they will

[7:40] paradoxically miss their own happiness.

[7:42] So that's the first thing to understand.

[7:44] Could you drill a little bit deeper into

[7:46] enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning?

[7:48] Yeah. And maybe just put some contour on

[7:51] each of those. We'll go back to

[7:52] unhappiness and suffering and how it

[7:54] relates to all three.

[7:55] >> For sure. So, so enjoyment um is very

[7:58] much related to pleasure. But pleasure

[8:01] is fundamentally a limbic phenomenon. I

[8:03] mean just if you if you touch in

[8:05] experiments you've done these you've

[8:06] seen these experiments forever the the

[8:07] vententral stratum or the vententral

[8:09] tegmental area you can get this inc you

[8:12] can get the stimulation of these parts

[8:13] of the brain that will give you this

[8:14] sense of a booleiance this sense of you

[8:16] know immediate joy from anything from

[8:19] your girlfriend saying

[8:21] I love you or a big bump of cocaine not

[8:23] that you would because the brain is so

[8:26] unbelievably thrifty right that's not

[8:29] part of happiness that's a phenomenon

[8:32] from sort of the place to scene brain

[8:34] from something the middle place to scene

[8:36] what 250,000 years ago

[8:38] >> saying that's rewards you go get more of

[8:42] that is kind of what it comes down to

[8:45] >> you don't want to have that as your goal

[8:46] in life I mean like the hippies used to

[8:48] say if it feels good do it my dad said

[8:51] that's the end of America he was kind of

[8:53] right

[8:53] >> I think your dad and my dad either were

[8:55] friends I don't think we have the same

[8:56] dad but um [laughter]

[8:57] >> separated from

[8:58] >> yeah my dad and no disrespect to the

[9:01] hippies Uh but my dad had very clear

[9:03] thoughts about how the children of

[9:05] >> people with that mindset were um at a

[9:08] disadvantage because of that message

[9:10] specifically.

[9:11] >> What will happen of course very quickly

[9:13] is that your pleasures which are

[9:15] fundamentally animal I mean your your

[9:17] your your dog your beautiful new dog

[9:20] friendly new dog that I just met. He has

[9:21] a lyic system not that different than

[9:23] yours and he feels emotions that are not

[9:26] that different than yours. Right? I mean

[9:28] this he has amygdala amygdala you know

[9:31] he has a dorsal anterior singulate

[9:33] cortex he has a vententral straight I

[9:35] mean he's got all these different parts

[9:36] and just kind of like we do but he's not

[9:38] human

[9:40] >> because he's managed largely by these

[9:42] emotions and we have this choice we have

[9:44] this incredible prefrontal cortex this

[9:47] this human cortex that's enormous your

[9:50] dogs is wafer thin ours is like 30% of

[9:52] the weight of our brain and what that

[9:54] supercomput allows us to do is to choose

[9:57] between animal impulses and moral

[9:59] aspirations. We get to make that choice.

[10:01] That's a conscious executive choice.

[10:04] When we convert pleasure into enjoyment,

[10:07] it's because it takes on moral

[10:09] aspiration to it. We take our pleasures

[10:12] and we add people and memory, thereby

[10:14] kind of delivering them to an an

[10:16] executive experience that we're

[10:18] managing, that we we understand, that

[10:20] we're conscious of, that we can

[10:21] remember, and that's fundamentally

[10:22] social. It's quintessentially human. As

[10:25] a matter of fact, that's what it's all

[10:27] about. So I, you know, I talk to my

[10:28] students and

[10:29] >> who are graduate students or 28 years

[10:31] old on average and my and my kids who

[10:33] are 28, 26, and 23.

[10:36] >> You know, what does this mean? And and

[10:38] for most people, what it means is if

[10:40] there's something that makes you feel

[10:41] good, cuz we all have our thing, whether

[10:43] it's highly glycemic carbohydrates or

[10:46] any kind of addictive behavior. And in

[10:49] point of fact, it can be

[10:50] dependenceprovoking, which many things

[10:52] can. and they when they when they're

[10:54] when they when they wire into the

[10:55] dopamine system. You've talked about

[10:57] this ad at Nauseium so many times. I've

[10:58] heard you talk about this. If you're

[11:00] doing it alone, you're probably doing it

[11:01] wrong. Probably it's uh it's probably

[11:04] more about pleasure and less

[11:06] [clears throat] about enjoyment. It's

[11:07] not a perfect rule. I like to walk in

[11:09] the woods by myself and say my prayers,

[11:10] but those things aren't addictive.

[11:12] >> And so that that's how to how to how to

[11:14] think about it. You need to enjoy your

[11:16] life. And that means there there are

[11:19] things that give you pleasure at a at a

[11:21] metaphysical or physical level, but they

[11:23] also have people in memory and you're

[11:25] managing them and they're not managing

[11:27] you. So that's kind of the in a nutshell

[11:29] how I think about enjoyment. Now many

[11:32] people are bad at that, especially

[11:33] stvers. Who who listens to your podcast?

[11:36] People who are serious about their

[11:37] lives. There's nobody who's like, "Ah,

[11:39] whatever. Who's going to listen to your

[11:40] podcast?

[11:41] >> We're not a whatever podcast.

[11:42] >> You're a Strivever podcast.

[11:43] >> We should do a title card sometime. How

[11:45] to whatever."

[11:46] >> Yeah. I know it won't go very well April

[11:48] Fool's episode.

[11:49] >> I know, right? This is not one of those

[11:51] podcasts.

[11:52] >> You had guys like me on, right?

[11:53] >> And and what strivvers, one of the

[11:55] things they often struggle with if

[11:57] they're very very very uh uh um

[11:59] competitive, if they're ambitious, if

[12:01] they're successful, is that they want to

[12:04] be special more than they want to be

[12:05] happy. And so they want to put points on

[12:07] the board. And if it's not putting

[12:09] points on the board, they're not going

[12:10] to do it. And these are the people that

[12:11] I have to work with to be to to work on

[12:14] the macronutrient enjoyment. Is there

[12:16] fear that were they to

[12:20] >> enjoy life more, be happier, I'm

[12:22] probably using these terms incorrectly,

[12:24] that somehow they would lose their drive

[12:26] because as you were describing

[12:27] enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning and

[12:30] by the way, I love this

[12:31] >> uh description of enjoyment as you know,

[12:33] we we have animal impulses and then but

[12:35] then there's this other end of the

[12:37] spectrum which are moral aspirations.

[12:40] Wouldn't at least some component of a

[12:42] great life be to marry those two things

[12:45] so that your pursuit of of these animal

[12:48] impulses actually raised you up morally?

[12:50] I mean that's the ultimate I mean we

[12:52] have so many examples now in the media

[12:53] of of uh prominent politicians in

[12:56] particular with all the elections going

[12:58] on where their careers [clears throat]

[13:00] are tanked. I do believe they might have

[13:03] been trying to be good people on

[13:06] average, but they they temptation ruined

[13:09] that career anyway. Totally. Totally.

[13:11] And so it's clear it exists in them and

[13:13] and in many in everyone, right? But the

[13:16] fact that that can happen to

[13:18] >> it's almost feels like a a misuse of the

[13:21] animal impulse.

[13:21] >> Yeah.

[13:22] >> Is there a a way to marry uh animal

[13:26] impulse to moral aspiration in a way

[13:28] that's seamless or does it always work?

[13:30] >> No. No. You you have just defined

[13:31] enjoyment. Proper enjoyment is one where

[13:34] you are you're doing what you what you

[13:36] think is prudent and natural and good to

[13:39] do. It's something that you want to see

[13:41] yourself doing and at the same time is

[13:43] pleasurable.

[13:44] >> You know, that's why that the best

[13:46] moments over the course of my 35 year

[13:49] marriage are highly pleasurable and

[13:51] extremely enjoyable. M and it's the kind

[13:54] of thing where I could get, you know,

[13:56] found out by the press that I'm having

[13:58] another beautiful night with Esther.

[14:00] [laughter] You know, that's good is what

[14:03] it comes down to. And and the truth is

[14:05] we all struggle with these things

[14:07] because we are biological creatures. You

[14:09] know, I'm fundamentally a a behavioral

[14:11] scientist, but psychology is biology.

[14:13] One of the things I've had to retrain in

[14:15] so many of these areas, especially over

[14:17] the past 10 years, is because the

[14:19] biology has become so salient in our

[14:21] field. And one of the things that you

[14:23] find is that the the trouble that people

[14:25] actually have is when animal impulse and

[14:27] moral aspiration go in different

[14:28] directions. And one of the great

[14:30] strategies for life is how to point them

[14:32] in the same direction.

[14:34] >> How to and and sometimes you have to

[14:35] choose.

[14:36] >> Sometimes you have to choose and and

[14:38] people feel like it's I should you know

[14:41] if it feels good it must be good for me.

[14:43] But that's have the and so I'm going to

[14:44] do it. That's having the same life goals

[14:46] as prozzoa or something you know.

[14:48] >> Or if it feels bad it must be bad for

[14:50] me. And there probably a lot of things

[14:51] that people should could benefit from

[14:54] doing that are going to feel quote

[14:55] unquote painful in the process.

[14:58] >> Now we're in the gym. I'm I'm a gym rat.

[14:59] So are you.

[15:00] >> Do you do you like training? I like

[15:01] training. I

[15:02] >> I really do like training. But it's a

[15:03] funny thing because when leg day I still

[15:06] want to throw up. I've been in the gym

[15:10] almost every day for 30 years.

[15:12] >> Wow.

[15:12] >> And and you're in great shape, by the

[15:14] way. It's obvious to anyone watching,

[15:15] but you know what? I feel good.

[15:17] >> Is it okay to share? You're 62.

[15:19] >> 62 years old. Yeah.

[15:20] years old. Yeah. And and it's and you

[15:22] know, I've got genetics that keep me

[15:24] really lean. So, it's not like it's any

[15:26] any flex that I can stay at, you know,

[15:28] 10% body fat or something like that.

[15:30] That's not that's just that's just

[15:32] nature. But the truth is I I I really I

[15:35] recognize that that I I need to keep the

[15:37] machine in good shape because the brain

[15:40] is part of the machine. And as we both

[15:43] know, hard exercise, picking up heavy

[15:45] things and and and running around is

[15:47] fundamental to affect management and

[15:49] also to the maintenance of the overall

[15:51] functioning of how the machine works. I

[15:52] don't want to fall prey to, you know,

[15:55] type three diabetes, which is what we're

[15:57] calling Alzheimer's these days. I don't

[15:59] want metabolic disorders that are that

[16:01] are avoidable. So, I actually I do that.

[16:03] Now, leg day sucks, man. I mean, I've

[16:06] been doing leg day every fourth day for

[16:08] four for 30 years, and I still don't

[16:11] like it. I would still skip leg day.

[16:13] Every day would be chest day because

[16:14] everybody likes chest day, right?

[16:16] Because it feels better. But the truth

[16:18] is that I do it because I actually know

[16:20] how the muscle protein synthesis works.

[16:22] I know that for hormone balance, leg day

[16:24] is the most important day for these

[16:26] really large muscle groups. And and and

[16:28] what am I doing? I'm making the decision

[16:30] to do something that foregoes my my

[16:32] comfort, my pleasure, even a moment of

[16:35] my happiness for the moral aspiration

[16:37] that I actually have. And and that leads

[16:38] to this important conclusion from the

[16:41] research in this area, which is that

[16:42] mother nature

[16:44] doesn't care if you're happy. This is

[16:47] it's you know, we all think it's like if

[16:49] I'm not happy, then something's not

[16:51] right. No, no, it might very well be not

[16:54] right. You know, there there all kinds

[16:56] of suffering that you actually need to

[16:57] grow a as a person. You need negative

[17:01] emotions because negative emotions are

[17:02] an alarm system that show that your

[17:04] reptilian brain has has has registered

[17:07] signals sending these signals to your

[17:10] lyic system and and and and setting off

[17:13] alarms in, you know, from sadness and

[17:15] anger and disgust and fear.

[17:17] >> That's unpleasant, but that doesn't mean

[17:19] anything's wrong. It means everything's

[17:20] right. How you react to it can be how

[17:23] you want to in so doing have a better

[17:25] having a better life notwithstanding the

[17:27] fact that it doesn't feel good. And

[17:29] that's a life of discipline. That's a

[17:31] life of of the kind of behavior that you

[17:33] actually want. That's worth moral

[17:34] aspiration.

[17:36] >> I'd like to take a quick break to

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[20:39] to get up to 27% off. I've got this

[20:43] statement that um you just mentioned

[20:46] like ringing in my ears in in the best

[20:48] way, which is that you're saying uh this

[20:50] moral aspiration piece is uh has a lot

[20:53] to do with or reflects doing uh what you

[20:57] want to see yourself doing. I really

[20:59] like that because I think for many

[21:00] people um they want to see themselves

[21:05] doing things that others would approve

[21:06] of, right?

[21:07] >> And from a young age we're told what we

[21:09] should do and why,

[21:11] >> right? You need to like get dressed up

[21:14] for this event or you need to, you know,

[21:16] sit up certain way, eat a certain way,

[21:18] be polite and these things which are all

[21:21] important parts of our training, right,

[21:23] as humans,

[21:24] >> right? But there's something really

[21:26] special that happens when we as you

[21:28] pointed out when we see ourselves doing

[21:29] something and it feels good and we it's

[21:32] a positive self-reflection of the

[21:34] non-egotistical kind.

[21:37] >> Right. And I don't think we

[21:39] >> talk enough about this because there's

[21:41] so much out there now about how social

[21:43] media is all about comparisons. So

[21:45] people are showing other people here's

[21:46] what I'm doing. But there's a different

[21:48] version of that where somebody does

[21:50] something that they're proud of and puts

[21:52] it to the internet and they're seeing

[21:54] themselves do something that they're

[21:56] proud of and they get the feedback and

[21:58] >> you know provided that their ego is in

[22:01] check and they don't let the positive

[22:03] comments go to their head or set them up

[22:04] for disappointment when they don't get

[22:06] as many of them the next time. All

[22:08] things that are wired into those

[22:09] reinforcement circuits.

[22:10] >> I think that's great. They're seeing

[22:12] themselves

[22:13] >> exercising. Oh, by the way, it could be

[22:15] painting. It could be time with family.

[22:17] It could be being in volunteer and

[22:19] service. And we tend to look at that

[22:21] stuff and say, "Oh, you know, they're

[22:22] just doing the display." So my

[22:26] >> question is to really get the ideal

[22:28] match between this uh animal impulse and

[22:31] and moral aspirations piece that we see

[22:33] ourselves and experience ourselves doing

[22:35] what we want to see ourselves doing and

[22:38] that we not share it because I'm open to

[22:39] the idea that the sharing diminishes it

[22:41] somehow.

[22:42] >> It can. [clears throat] Yeah,

[22:43] >> it can. But fundamentally, I think it's

[22:46] actually quite important that you

[22:47] declare what your moral aspirations are.

[22:50] And part of the reason is because this

[22:51] gives you a commitment bias. So there's

[22:53] a lot of behavioral science about that.

[22:55] A lot of psychology that actually talks

[22:56] about commitments bias when you say,

[22:58] "Here's the thing that I'm actually

[22:59] going to do. I'm going to finish my

[23:01] PhD." Right?

[23:02] >> This is a big part of weddings. I

[23:04] attended a lot of weddings. And it's

[23:05] kind of an amazing thing, this wedding

[23:07] ceremony.

[23:08] >> Yeah. Makes you path dependent toward

[23:09] your own aspirations. people stand up

[23:11] and give a bunch of really amazing

[23:13] promises in front of all their friends

[23:14] and then they get a bunch of gifts and

[23:16] that there I'm not cynical about this at

[23:18] all like from a reward pathway

[23:20] perspective it's like you're rewarding

[23:21] the promises that they're making in

[23:24] addition to the union that they're in

[23:25] right then a lot of the reward is like

[23:27] you're giving them things for their life

[23:28] going forward sadly I have a number of

[23:30] friends who've been divorced and they

[23:33] depending on how long ago the wedding

[23:34] was

[23:35] >> they often feel quite sheepish about all

[23:37] the gifts like what they got all these

[23:38] gifts for the promises they made. Now

[23:40] they've changed their mind,

[23:42] >> right?

[23:43] >> Some cases broken those promises, but

[23:45] they've changed their mind, right? It's

[23:46] not till death do us part. It's now

[23:48] until it got inconvenient enough that

[23:50] we're going to part ways. And

[23:53] >> it's an incredible still occurring kind

[23:57] of ancient display of promising

[24:00] publicly, I'm not going to quit.

[24:03] >> Yeah. No, totally. This is this is my

[24:05] person through thick and thin, through

[24:07] sickness and in health and all the

[24:09] things that you actually talk about.

[24:10] You're actually talking in the in the

[24:12] wedding promises. You're saying it's

[24:14] going to suck sometimes.

[24:15] >> That's what you're saying. I mean, it's

[24:17] like richer and poorer and we're going

[24:20] to stick this thing out despite the fact

[24:22] that we're we're stating right up front

[24:24] that there's going to be times of

[24:25] poverty, there's going to be times of

[24:27] sickness, there's going to be there's

[24:28] going to be trouble ahead. And that's

[24:30] basically saying that happiness has

[24:32] unhappiness in it. I'm defining

[24:34] happiness. How am I defining happiness?

[24:36] That I'm going to get 80, 90 years and

[24:40] as I take my dying breath, I'm going to

[24:41] be looking. I'm like donote and this is

[24:44] my dulin. And I'm going to be I'm going

[24:46] to be looking into her eyes as I as I

[24:49] recite the holy scriptures and take my

[24:51] dying breath. That's basically what

[24:53] you're saying. And you're defining that

[24:55] as your bliss. I mean, if it weren't

[24:57] your bliss, you'd be like, "Why are you

[24:58] doing it? I want it." Because that's a

[25:01] good life. That's what you're stating.

[25:02] and you're and and you're laying out

[25:04] what actually happiness looks for and

[25:06] you're saying it's going to be full of

[25:07] unhappiness. That's what you're saying

[25:10] and that's the thing for people to

[25:11] understand that that's what it comes

[25:13] down to when you are laying out publicly

[25:16] your moral commitments when you're

[25:18] actually saying this. What you're saying

[25:20] is you're recognizing that happiness and

[25:22] unhappiness are intertwined and you want

[25:24] the full you're basically saying bring

[25:27] it on.

[25:28] >> It's like courage. Mhm.

[25:30] >> It's a declaration of of your

[25:32] independence from the world and your

[25:34] dependence on each other, which is a

[25:36] beautiful thing. It's what you do when

[25:37] you're publicly baptized as an adult.

[25:40] Anytime that you're taken into a new

[25:41] religion, there's always these

[25:43] commitments about these moral

[25:44] aspirations that you're making.

[25:46] Recognizing, yeah, sometimes this is

[25:49] going to go contrary to my animal

[25:50] impulses. Absolutely. And you know, this

[25:52] is one of the things that I love about

[25:54] sort of the modern internet culture.

[25:55] There's a lot to regret. There's a lot

[25:57] that you and I look at like, oh man, you

[25:59] know, but the other thing I really

[26:00] really like is it's facilitated this

[26:03] wholesale movement of aspiration for

[26:07] excellence.

[26:08] >> A lot of people they want to be

[26:09] excellent,

[26:10] >> you know, it's like I so this isn't just

[26:13] the heroin podcast is not just

[26:15] entertainment, high class entertainment.

[26:17] People want an edge. They want to know,

[26:19] you know, why why are they so attracted

[26:21] to the protocols? Protocols toward what?

[26:23] Toward being better. They want to be

[26:25] more successful. They want to be better

[26:27] liked. They want things to go better for

[26:29] them. That's a that's a human drive for

[26:32] excellence. And when people can finally

[26:34] make peace with the fact that your

[26:36] animal impulses will not gen will not

[26:39] always and frequently not lead you to

[26:42] excellence, then you can finally be

[26:44] free. Do you think that a lot of the

[26:47] friction out there um politically uh

[26:51] socially is basically about drawing the

[26:55] line between what is animal impulse and

[26:58] what is moral aspiration?

[27:00] >> I mean I don't want to take us too far

[27:01] down.

[27:02] >> Tell me more. What do you mean?

[27:03] >> I mean some of the animal impulses are

[27:05] obvious, right? Um, and they're all for

[27:07] the neurobiologists, we would say

[27:08] they're very like limbic, hypothalamic,

[27:10] right?

[27:11] >> But, you know, some people would say,

[27:13] okay, like here's the quote unquote

[27:15] traditional model of marriage and um and

[27:19] morality.

[27:20] >> Yeah.

[27:20] >> And some people would say actually we

[27:22] want to kind of bend that a certain way

[27:24] where um people could have quote unquote

[27:26] unconventional relationships or

[27:28] unconventional families or I mean I

[27:30] think everyone would agree that lie

[27:32] lying, cheating, and stealing is bad.

[27:34] Right.

[27:34] >> Right. But there's a an attempt, I

[27:36] think, to draw a kind of jagged line

[27:38] between moral and immoral that, you

[27:40] know, certain things that are not of

[27:44] biblical traditional morality are okay

[27:48] because as long as they're done

[27:49] consensually and in the and in the name

[27:51] of love.

[27:52] >> Right.

[27:52] >> Right. And we're not talking about

[27:54] breaking laws here, although some people

[27:55] really push this to the extreme, but

[27:56] that's not what I'm talking about.

[27:57] That's that's

[27:59] >> and I'm staying off specific issues not

[28:01] not to be like politically careful here

[28:03] but just because I feel like a lot of it

[28:05] is like where are we going to draw the

[28:07] line between limbic and higher order in

[28:09] fact it gets it actually gets inverted

[28:11] where people will say no that the more

[28:13] evolved way of thinking is past all that

[28:16] where you can really get beyond this

[28:19] this this very uh you know black and

[28:22] white morality and really say no there's

[28:25] all sorts of versions of of what uh

[28:27] love, family, marriage, commitment, um

[28:30] child rearing could look like.

[28:32] >> Conscious pilot. What is truth?

[28:34] >> Right.

[28:34] >> Right. It's very postmodern.

[28:36] >> Yeah, it is very postmodern. But I think

[28:38] that I mean I feel like

[28:40] >> this is that like people are pulling

[28:42] back and forth on this line just like in

[28:44] science people are trying to say the

[28:45] scientists and doctors that are all you

[28:47] know uh traditional scientists and and

[28:49] physicians they have the knowledge and

[28:51] then the general components of the

[28:53] general public are saying actually

[28:55] during the pandemic you lied you know

[28:57] like a teenager following their and like

[28:58] you need to admit you lied and then

[29:00] they're like I didn't lie you know you

[29:01] know and so there's just trying to pull

[29:03] back we have the torture of truth no we

[29:04] have the torture of truth and of course

[29:06] >> there are elements of truth on

[29:08] But with this in this case it's sort of

[29:10] >> I think at the extremes we all

[29:12] understand murder is bad right lying

[29:14] cheating stealing bad right but then

[29:16] what constitutes a a moral aspiration

[29:19] >> right

[29:20] >> to one camp is actually a moral insult

[29:23] >> right

[29:24] >> and vice versa

[29:25] >> so John height you've had him on the

[29:26] show right yes John height's great and

[29:27] John I height and I go way back we go

[29:30] back to the early part of the 21st

[29:32] century so and John heighten are just

[29:34] the same age and and we've had these

[29:35] sort of parallel careers writing about

[29:37] about science of human happiness. The

[29:38] guy's a visionary. He's probably the

[29:42] greatest social scientist of our

[29:44] generation.

[29:44] >> Wow.

[29:45] >> He's that great. I mean, it's he's

[29:46] unbelievable. He wrote book a book about

[29:49] moral foundations. And he talked about

[29:51] the fact that there are two moral

[29:53] foundations that everybody has in

[29:55] common, and that's care and fairness.

[29:58] Care for others and fairness. Now, we

[30:00] define those things differently. I mean,

[30:02] what does care mean? Does the care mean

[30:03] giving everybody, you know, taking care

[30:06] of them at the base level or does it

[30:08] mean everybody gets an apartment and

[30:09] free groceries? I mean, you figure out

[30:10] what that means.

[30:11] >> And that uh that's a legitimate argument

[30:13] about, you know, what it means. Fairness

[30:15] is really really different, especially

[30:16] between political polls where one side

[30:19] is about redistributive fairness and the

[30:21] other side is about meritocratic

[30:23] fairness. You know, what fairness

[30:24] actually means, but everybody wants a

[30:26] fair and caring society and you believe

[30:28] that you should be fair as a parent. You

[30:29] should care for your kids. Then what he

[30:31] shows empirically with his work which no

[30:34] doubt has a huge neurobiological basis

[30:36] and I'm sure has a huge genetic basis as

[30:38] well because these personality

[30:39] characteristics generally do are usually

[30:41] between in the in the identical twin

[30:43] studies it's usually 40 to 80% genetic

[30:46] all the aspects of personality which is

[30:47] super interesting in and of it in of

[30:49] itself is that there's three elements of

[30:52] morality that are very different between

[30:55] the political polls. They are loyalty,

[30:58] purity and authority. And so loyalty is

[31:01] like flag burning is bad, right? You

[31:04] know, I come from a very progre mostly

[31:07] progressive family, politically

[31:08] progressive family. And and if I asked

[31:10] somebody, you know, from my family of

[31:12] origin, what do you think about flag

[31:13] burning? They'd be like inadvisable,

[31:15] right? As opposed to morally evil,

[31:17] right? Soft answer.

[31:18] >> Yeah. When it comes, right? And the

[31:21] second is is is loyalty, you know,

[31:24] loyalty to tribe. And what you find is

[31:26] that people who are more on the

[31:27] politically conservative side, they have

[31:29] a different sense of loyalty. Loyalty

[31:31] towards sports teams. So you find that

[31:33] when you in these interesting studies

[31:34] that you go into a political

[31:35] conservatives office and you'll find

[31:37] like a a sports poster where for

[31:40] political liberals office, you're very

[31:42] very much less likely to find this is

[31:44] what you find. And then of course this

[31:46] what what it where it really has teeth

[31:47] is toward you know national identity.

[31:50] you know, where you're loyal toward

[31:51] national my it's like my country right

[31:54] or wrong which is one of the reasons you

[31:56] find such a strong political

[31:57] prepoundonderance of one side in the

[31:59] military forces in the American military

[32:01] as opposed to the other not to say that

[32:02] one side's right or wrong but that's

[32:04] just you know how it comes down height

[32:06] would say that's that's a difference in

[32:08] moral foundations and the last that you

[32:10] were really touching on here is purity

[32:12] is moral purity and the moral purity is

[32:16] about in for example in sexual matters

[32:18] is very very profound, you know, and so,

[32:21] you know, there's a there's a you know,

[32:23] I've seen a bumper sticker in San

[32:24] Francisco that says, "Your body may be a

[32:27] temple, but mine is an amusement park,

[32:30] right? It's funny in its way, right?"

[32:32] But what that is basically saying,

[32:33] >> it's very it's very what I would call

[32:36] because I'm from the Bay Area, sort of

[32:38] uh old older San Francisco like circa

[32:40] '7s to now. Now there's a there's a kind

[32:43] of a growing conservative movement

[32:45] somewhat tucked into the tech community

[32:48] although you find a mix of both.

[32:49] >> You find a mix of both too but it's kind

[32:51] of a libertine thing

[32:53] >> where libertarianism and libertinism

[32:55] diverge which is a really interesting

[32:57] boundary too is what you find but that

[33:00] actually describes those differences are

[33:02] you know so so you know each side will

[33:04] say the other side is immoral. No

[33:05] they're differently moral and you decide

[33:08] you know which you think is right. And

[33:10] if you tell me in a structured survey

[33:12] what you think is right on those

[33:14] particular issues, I have a very high

[33:17] degree of certitude in in guessing how

[33:19] you vote,

[33:20] >> actually. Now, some people are in these

[33:22] weird things. You can be in kind of a

[33:23] you can be a political conservative, but

[33:26] a cultural liberal,

[33:27] >> right? Those aren't very many people,

[33:29] but you do find them. They tend to be

[33:30] the political libertarians. As a matter

[33:32] of fact,

[33:32] >> it's fascinating because ultimately here

[33:34] we're talking about um drawing

[33:36] boundaries between different brain

[33:38] areas. At least that's what the

[33:39] neurobiologist in me thinks. But um

[33:42] >> I mean obviously

[33:44] >> politics, laws and behavior matters a

[33:47] lot.

[33:48] >> It really matters because ultimately

[33:50] people can say all sorts of things about

[33:51] what they believe, what they want to be,

[33:53] but

[33:53] >> we are ultimately judged on what we do.

[33:56] >> And I think we probably judge ourselves

[33:59] on the basis of what we do or ideally we

[34:01] would we would look at that. Let's talk

[34:03] a little bit about

[34:04] >> we've gone through one macronutrient,

[34:06] >> right? One macronutrient. What exercises

[34:08] do you suggest to um students to start

[34:12] to explore their own relationship

[34:15] between animal impulse and moral

[34:17] aspiration?

[34:18] >> Yeah. So, one of the things that I talk

[34:21] about is is how they understand leisure.

[34:25] >> So, leisure is what you do and they're

[34:27] not compensating you for in the time

[34:29] that's actually free. How you understand

[34:32] leisure. M so and and the greatest

[34:35] writer about this is Yseph Peeper the

[34:38] the mid 20th century German philosopher

[34:41] his most important book was leisure the

[34:42] basis of culture that's his most

[34:45] inflecting it's actually a long essay

[34:47] >> it's very very beautiful he says I can

[34:48] tell you everything you need to know

[34:49] about a culture by how they actually use

[34:51] leisure

[34:52] >> interesting

[34:52] >> he doesn't want to know what you do for

[34:54] money he wants to know how you use your

[34:56] time when nobody's paying you that's

[34:58] because he says that's what reflects who

[35:00] you actually

[35:02] That's why I never liked the Oh, you can

[35:03] tell by the books on somebody's shelf

[35:05] cuz books on somebody's shelf doesn't

[35:07] mean they actually read those books

[35:08] first.

[35:08] >> They own those books,

[35:09] >> right? Exactly. Many people own my books

[35:12] who haven't read them.

[35:13] >> Well, I've spent some time with it. I

[35:14] still need to pour through it uh again,

[35:17] but uh

[35:18] >> can't wait to wait to read Protocols, by

[35:20] the way.

[35:20] >> It's Oh, thanks. If nothing else,

[35:22] Protocols Will Cure Insomnia. The thing

[35:24] is almost 600 pages long. Thank you. Um

[35:26] I Your book's awesome and I I I spent

[35:30] some time with it. I want to spend more

[35:31] time with it. Um, in part because it

[35:33] marries theory with practical steps and

[35:35] prompts, not AI prompts, but the kind of

[35:37] prompts to really give oneself. So, this

[35:40] thing about leisure is fascinating.

[35:41] >> Yeah, leisure is really interesting.

[35:42] It's like that that tells you what you

[35:44] need to know about a culture, but also

[35:45] about a person in a way. And so, if you

[35:48] find somebody who's using their leisure

[35:50] time to meet animal appetites, that's

[35:53] one thing. if they're actually using it

[35:55] to for for personal betterment for

[35:58] personal betterment not career

[35:59] betterment not for the compensation

[36:01] actually comes from the worldly rewards

[36:02] there's four worldly rewards money power

[36:05] pleasure and honor and if you're doing

[36:08] something such that it doesn't reward

[36:10] you in one of those areas that actually

[36:12] comes from Aristotle and Aquinus etc

[36:14] then you're actually doing what he would

[36:16] call proper leisure you're doing proper

[36:18] leisure toward you know moral aspiration

[36:20] which is ultimately the most rewarding

[36:22] thing That's ultimately what will take

[36:24] you from the world of pleasure into the

[36:25] world of enjoyment and give you greater

[36:27] happiness. That's the theory and it's

[36:29] and it's it's actually been verified a

[36:31] lot in a lot of these ideas the best

[36:34] questions they come from the

[36:35] philosophers and then and then the

[36:37] structural mechanisms come from

[36:38] neuroscience and then the testing of

[36:40] these ideas comes from the behavioral

[36:42] sciences right the the experiments etc.

[36:45] Then of course applying them to your

[36:46] life is a different kettle of fish. And

[36:48] so what he says is that there's kind of

[36:50] three areas that make proper leisure and

[36:53] ultimate enjoyment. You want me to tell

[36:55] you the

[36:55] >> please. Okay.

[36:56] >> Number one is deepening relationships on

[36:59] purpose, man. I mean on purpose. And so

[37:01] leisure is this weekend I'm envisioning

[37:05] myself

[37:07] not touching my phone while I'm with my

[37:10] wife, right? Deepening my relationship,

[37:12] being fully present for my wife. and and

[37:16] I'm going to go someplace not because I

[37:17] want to chill on the beach, but because

[37:19] I want to be on the beach with the love

[37:20] of my life. So, deepening relationships

[37:22] on purpose with, you know, a real focus

[37:25] on that. The second is learning

[37:26] something you don't need to learn. And

[37:29] the third is actually developing

[37:30] yourself metaphysically. Is your

[37:32] spiritual, your religious life, or your

[37:34] philosophical life is is to transcend

[37:37] what's going on here for for no other

[37:38] reason than the fact that you seek

[37:39] transcendence. Those are the three areas

[37:41] of proper leisure. And that's how he

[37:43] would say, "I know that you're going

[37:45] from pleasure to enjoyment." That's how

[37:47] I know by based on what you're doing,

[37:50] even though you don't have to.

[37:51] >> I love this. I'll tell you several of

[37:54] the reasons why I love it. One is um

[37:56] people from time to time will say, "What

[37:58] do you do for fun?"

[37:59] >> I know.

[37:59] >> It's a very difficult question for me to

[38:01] answer because people

[38:03] >> But your work is fun, by the way.

[38:04] >> My work is so much fun. Like I'm reading

[38:06] this book about sunlight and how the

[38:07] dermatology world is revising their

[38:09] understanding about sun and skin cancer

[38:11] and um and I'm loving that. I love my I

[38:15] mean I could I could list it off but I I

[38:17] just say those things to just get people

[38:19] to think about what what they enjoy

[38:20] doing.

[38:21] >> But the word that you know keeps coming

[38:24] up in my mind because I have a hard time

[38:25] with the fun thing because yeah I do

[38:27] other things that are purely

[38:28] recreational is

[38:30] >> this word enrichment. I mean it sounds

[38:32] kind of you know uh you know like

[38:36] somebody's trying to be an academic when

[38:38] they say like like what do you do for

[38:40] enrichment? It doesn't it's not it's not

[38:42] as natural a question these days as like

[38:44] what do you do for fun it's like what do

[38:45] you do for your own enrichment it it it

[38:47] reshapes the question a little bit

[38:49] because the implication is it's not just

[38:51] about immediate pleasure

[38:53] >> which fun kind of

[38:54] >> kind of falls into the group of pleasure

[38:56] >> personal excellence.

[38:56] >> Yeah. you come out of you come out of it

[38:58] better,

[38:59] >> right?

[38:59] >> Not just for having exper experienced

[39:02] the the whatever it was the activity

[39:05] was, but like there's something carried

[39:06] forward into other things that you do

[39:08] and in a good way. And so the word

[39:10] enrichment, you know, feels good. It's

[39:11] the reason why even though I was in the

[39:13] sciences as an undergraduate, I you

[39:15] know, decided to take a course in Greek

[39:16] mythology and like loved it. Loved loved

[39:18] loved it.

[39:19] >> Was leisure

[39:19] >> and and it turns out it was neuroscience

[39:21] too, right? [laughter] You know, years

[39:22] later, like we talk about, you know, the

[39:24] myth of the cyclops is all about anger

[39:25] and it has everything to do with the

[39:27] lack of depth perception that when you

[39:29] have one eye versus two eyes. It turns

[39:31] out like the Greeks like really

[39:32] understood stereopsis and depth

[39:33] perception there. I couldn't help

[39:35] myself. In any case,

[39:36] >> that's interesting.

[39:37] >> So, like this notion of enrichment and

[39:39] and I love that in the example you gave

[39:42] of going to the beach uh with a friend

[39:44] or with a spouse or someone else you

[39:46] care about. It's not about your own

[39:48] experience of it. You said because not

[39:50] just because you want to be there, but

[39:51] because you're actually there. That's a

[39:54] that's a physical grounds for creating

[39:57] something else. So, it's not really

[39:58] about the beach. It's about what you

[40:00] leave the beach with. That's right. And

[40:02] it's not just memories of the beach. You

[40:04] actually both change as a consequence of

[40:06] being there. Maybe in small ways, maybe

[40:07] in big ways,

[40:08] >> but you you've enriched the

[40:10] relationship. And so, the beach becomes

[40:13] incidental. When people talk about

[40:15] wanting to go out drinking, what I want

[40:17] to know is is it about the drinking or

[40:19] is it the people you're drinking with?

[40:20] That's what it comes down to. Now, I I

[40:21] strongly recommend that people

[40:23] reconsider that decision. I mean, I've

[40:26] heard you two drinks a week is the safe

[40:28] level. I've got it, Andrew. I've got it.

[40:29] >> Yeah. More than that, it's probably not

[40:30] a good idea for most people.

[40:32] >> I'm at zero. You know, I'm I'm a

[40:34] non-drinker. Um because it's the right

[40:36] it's the right cadence for my life. But,

[40:38] you know, people who do use alcohol

[40:39] responsibly, I'm not I wish I were a

[40:42] person who could use alcohol

[40:43] responsibly. I'm not right. So, so I

[40:45] don't and I don't use it at all. But,

[40:47] you know, when people say I'm going to

[40:48] go out drinking, I mean, I I I don't

[40:50] know if that's pleasure or enjoyment. I

[40:52] don't know if that's animal impulse or

[40:54] moral aspiration. I need more

[40:56] information. I need to know the reason

[40:58] for that. When people are talking about

[41:00] getting a beach house, I'm going to get

[41:02] a beach house. I don't know whether or

[41:04] not that's animal impulse to towards

[41:07] social comparison toward actually a a

[41:10] scoreboard effect so I can actually feel

[41:12] like I mean something. That's all animal

[41:15] impulse. All it is that's just like your

[41:17] trogodite brain actually saying you're

[41:19] not

[41:19] >> you're not good enough unless you have a

[41:21] beach house like old Bill over there at

[41:22] the office, right? But on the other

[41:24] hand, if you tell me it's like I I got

[41:26] to create bait so that my kids and

[41:28] grandkids are here a lot. Okay, now I'm

[41:30] listening. Now I'm actually paying

[41:32] attention. And so a lot of things that

[41:33] people will say, I I need a little bit

[41:35] more information such that I can

[41:36] categorize it in the right way. Whether

[41:38] or not we're on the right side, we're on

[41:40] the animal impulse side or the moral

[41:42] aspiration side, whether we're on the

[41:43] pleasure side or the enjoyment side,

[41:45] whether it's actually going to bring

[41:46] happiness. I'm pausing um because I I

[41:51] have so many questions about this, but I

[41:53] want to make sure we touch on the other

[41:54] macronutrients because otherwise I I'm

[41:56] going to um

[41:58] >> I'm going to encourage you to give a a

[42:00] tutorial on how to really uh maximize

[42:02] every single choice in not just my life,

[42:05] listeners,

[42:05] >> enjoyment protocols. We should have

[42:07] leisure protocols.

[42:08] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. you know the we

[42:10] all know that like one of the major

[42:11] pillars is social connection and

[42:13] relationships but

[42:15] >> the idea that leisure is is part of

[42:17] that.

[42:17] >> Yeah.

[42:19] >> Uh as a substrate for enriching those is

[42:21] obvious once we hear it

[42:22] >> but it reframes everything. if um

[42:24] exercising with somebody, you know,

[42:27] turns out to be a way you deepen the

[42:28] relationship, which actually has been my

[42:30] experience with a lot of male friends,

[42:31] frankly. Like,

[42:32] >> yeah, totally.

[42:33] >> One of the best ways to get to know

[42:34] somebody in my experience is to have an

[42:36] intellectual conversation with them,

[42:37] like really deep dive with them or to go

[42:40] do something difficult. Yeah. Yeah.

[42:42] [laughter] Yeah. Rob, our produ producer

[42:44] and close close friend, he's sitting to

[42:45] my left right now. I mean, one of the

[42:47] first things we ever did was like go for

[42:48] a run where he kicked my butt.

[42:50] >> And by the way, a Vanderbilt graduate.

[42:52] Very pleased.

[42:53] places that [snorts]

[42:54] >> Yeah. And um I don't recommend people

[42:56] box, but years ago I boxed and I'd spar

[42:58] on Wednesday nights. Don't recommend it.

[43:00] Yes, I wore headgear. Yes, I probably

[43:01] took some damage. I don't recommend it.

[43:03] Um but you feel so close to people that

[43:07] you've actually tried to hurt and they

[43:09] tried to hurt you, but with rules

[43:11] >> in it's a it's an amazing it's very

[43:14] primitive and yet you there's a bond

[43:16] there that is obviously nonverbal. It's

[43:18] a lifelong bond. you see that person the

[43:21] next time and it's a like

[43:23] >> especially if they played fair and they

[43:24] hurt you. Yeah. You're like,

[43:26] >> "Yeah, like we know one another. I've

[43:29] seen you, you know, there's a respect

[43:32] level." I'm not suggesting people do

[43:33] this, but

[43:34] >> you added people in memory to a strong

[43:36] experience, thus rendering it enjoyable

[43:38] and being part of happiness. Yeah. In in

[43:40] point of fact, it wasn't strictly

[43:42] >> pleasurable, but that wasn't exactly the

[43:44] point.

[43:45] >> No.

[43:45] >> Yeah.

[43:45] >> No. The point was to to suffer together

[43:47] in some way. There's a great book by a

[43:49] guy named Sam Sheridan uh called A

[43:51] Fighter's Heart. He's actually a Harvard

[43:52] grad.

[43:52] >> Yeah.

[43:53] >> I think he was an art major there. His

[43:54] dad was a Navy Seals. Very interesting

[43:56] guy. And he has this joke that you know

[43:58] uh

[43:59] >> you know that sparring is like a

[44:01] >> it's like a one night stand or

[44:03] something. You you've like done

[44:04] something very intimate with someone you

[44:06] barely know. And so it has both a

[44:08] feeling of connection but it's also the

[44:10] illusion of connection.

[44:12] >> So he hits it better than I did. Don't

[44:14] run around and start sparring with your

[44:15] friends. Well, the military why it has

[44:16] it creates such, you know, bonds for

[44:18] life. I mean, my son's my son is a

[44:20] sniper, scout sniper in the US Marine

[44:22] Corps, and these are friends for life. I

[44:23] mean, these are guys who would literally

[44:25] give their lives for each other, who

[44:27] looked out for each other in very, very

[44:28] dangerous situations. And they were

[44:30] suffering together. Now, the word

[44:31] compassion in Latin means to suffer

[44:34] together.

[44:35] >> That's what it means to be compassionate

[44:37] with somebody to to suffer alongside

[44:39] that person. That's what it comes from.

[44:41] Um and it's you know it has this the

[44:42] passion of Christ in the Christian

[44:44] religion is all about the suffering of

[44:46] Christ. That's what it comes and and for

[44:48] to have compassion towards somebody to

[44:50] suffer with that person through that and

[44:52] when you even induce that suffering as

[44:53] dumb as it is beating each other up you

[44:55] know doing getting into the octagon and

[44:58] you know that that is what you're doing

[44:59] is this is this is the experience of

[45:01] compassion which gets us to a a

[45:04] primordial need to move beyond the

[45:06] animal impulse into the moral space that

[45:09] actually makes us quintessentially human

[45:11] that makes us fundamentally different

[45:12] than all the other beings that makes us

[45:14] the dominant species.

[45:16] By the way, it also renders us the most

[45:19] miserable of all these species as well,

[45:21] which is so interesting.

[45:22] >> There's some uh dark and uh terrible

[45:25] examples of this. And sometimes people

[45:26] will call it trauma bonding, like the

[45:28] sort of Siden Nancy story, like to they

[45:30] like kill them kill each other at the

[45:32] Chelsea Hotel in like a drug induced

[45:34] rage or but then like if you watch um

[45:37] that great movie with Phoenix and Reese

[45:39] Witherspoon, right? walk the line like

[45:40] their relationship between Johnny Cash

[45:43] and and uh

[45:45] >> June Carter, right, was um Jun Carter

[45:47] Cash, I think was eventually her her

[45:49] married name was it was a contentious

[45:51] one. It was like that it was the it was

[45:53] the feistiness. It was the fighting like

[45:55] they were forged in this challenge. She

[45:57] was divorced at a time when divorce

[45:58] wasn't

[45:59] >> um was really frowned upon and and she

[46:02] was religious and so there was there was

[46:04] just a lot of contention and then then

[46:06] there's this peace that they achieve in

[46:07] being together. But you always sense

[46:08] that it's like that that there's this

[46:13] >> recognition that that there's fight in

[46:15] them and they've been through it.

[46:17] >> And that's part of like we tend to we

[46:18] used to kind of hold up relationships

[46:20] like that. Now we like to see everything

[46:22] look perfectly

[46:24] >> smooth,

[46:25] >> right? But this gets back to like the

[46:26] marriage vows and this gets back to

[46:28] relationships of all kinds. It's the

[46:30] suffering.

[46:30] >> The suffering suffer with I'm going to

[46:32] suffer with my wife until I take my

[46:33] dying breath. And it's like because and

[46:36] we have a relationship.

[46:37] >> She's going to suffer with you. My god,

[46:38] you know the width is there. The both of

[46:40] you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. To

[46:41] be clear. Yeah.

[46:42] >> No, for sure. I mean, it's no walk in

[46:44] the park being married to me. That's for

[46:46] sure. I mean, it's a pain for sure. But

[46:48] she will. I mean, this is like the bond

[46:50] that we've actually taken for life. And

[46:51] that and and central to the the and we

[46:54] have great enjoyment. It's fantastic.

[46:57] But that enjoyment is everything to do

[46:58] with the fact that it's pleasurable.

[47:00] It's interesting. It's it's fascinating.

[47:03] It's funny. And it's also hard and it's

[47:06] also there's a lot of suffering and

[47:08] there's a lot of it's dagger strong. I

[47:09] mean my wife is Spanish so you have to

[47:10] understand that there's a high level of

[47:12] complexity and suffering you know there

[47:14] >> and words per word density per moment.

[47:16] >> Yeah. Exactly. Right. And we have a

[47:17] 50/50 Spanish and English marriage which

[47:20] means that we can you know we can suffer

[47:22] in you know two languages is what it

[47:25] comes down to. But the truth is you know

[47:26] that's what that's what people need to

[47:28] expect. You know that's what people need

[47:30] to expect that it's like okay let's

[47:31] suffer together baby. Come on honey.

[47:34] Let's just let's just bring it on. And

[47:36] that's a beautiful thing.

[47:37] >> Mhm.

[47:38] >> That's really what it means.

[47:39] >> And people talk so much about peace and

[47:41] ease as the goal.

[47:43] >> Yeah.

[47:43] >> I'm not I'm hearing some of that, but

[47:44] I'm hearing a bunch of other things too

[47:46] here.

[47:47] >> I get it. And and particularly true that

[47:49] that men, they want peace at home. They

[47:53] do want peace at home. And and and I see

[47:56] that, by the way, women want peace at

[47:58] home, too. But you're not going to get

[48:00] peace all the time. You don't want peace

[48:02] all the time. You want a full life,

[48:04] fully lived. You want to be It's like

[48:06] the to be fully alive. What does that

[48:09] mean? That means the whole range of your

[48:10] emotions. You're using all the parts of

[48:12] your lyic system. We're wonderfully

[48:14] made, Andrew. And it's just like I I

[48:16] want the dorsal anterior singulate

[48:18] cortex to give me this sense of

[48:19] suffering and grief when I'm feeling

[48:21] social exclusion or the sense of loss.

[48:23] You know, I want the insula to be highly

[48:26] active when I have this sense of disgust

[48:28] or whatever it happens to be or the

[48:30] amygdala to be active with fear and

[48:31] anger, etc. I want that. I want my brain

[48:33] to work the way it's actually supposed

[48:34] to. I mean, I want to suffer and I'm

[48:38] going to if I'm actually being fully

[48:39] alive and and if I'm taking the chances

[48:42] and if I'm doing the things that I

[48:43] actually need to do because that is

[48:45] ingrained in the full experience of what

[48:48] human happiness is properly understood.

[48:50] I'd like to take a quick break and

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[50:08] So we have the second chapter in the

[50:10] book that maybe we write together.

[50:11] Although you're the real writer. I

[50:13] confess I I I yet to decide I'm a writer

[50:17] which you're good at when you do, man.

[50:19] >> Oh, thanks man. [laughter] Appreciate

[50:20] it. One will be one chapter will be on

[50:22] leisure.

[50:22] >> Yeah.

[50:23] >> You've told us that how one spends their

[50:25] leisure time is a is a critical window

[50:27] into self and um and the other uh will

[50:30] be to how to suffer more.

[50:32] >> Yeah.

[50:33] >> In in pursuit of moral aspiration

[50:36] >> but also how to experience pleasure in

[50:39] pursuit of moral aspiration.

[50:41] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. So we've gotten

[50:44] through enjoyment.

[50:45] >> Yeah. Let's let's talk about uh

[50:47] satisfaction

[50:49] >> because [clears throat] because it

[50:50] sounds similar but it sounds like deeper

[50:53] more pervasive more like an I don't

[50:56] define a satisfaction.

[50:57] >> Yeah. So I mean again and the the

[50:59] definition everything is in the

[51:00] definitions and and one of the problems

[51:02] with happiness is that everybody can

[51:03] they define it in different ways and

[51:05] etc. So I I try to stay out of the

[51:07] linguistic wars

[51:09] >> and

[51:09] >> it's like [clears throat] consciousness.

[51:10] Yeah.

[51:11] >> No neuroscientist really wants to talk

[51:13] about consciousness anymore because it's

[51:15] like it's so circular.

[51:16] >> It for sure. Yeah.

[51:17] >> Absolutely. It's being awareness and

[51:19] being aware of the fact that you're

[51:20] aware because you're aware or something.

[51:21] I what you know [laughter]

[51:23] >> many billions of dollars and euros in

[51:25] particular. That's a joke aimed at one

[51:26] Swiss scientist in particular.

[51:28] >> You've read Michael Poland's new book.

[51:29] >> I haven't read the new books, but I I

[51:32] think the world of him.

[51:33] >> He's fantastic. And the new book is

[51:34] actually the book to read for people who

[51:36] are not either, you know, philosophers

[51:38] or neuroscientists or or even

[51:40] psychologists for that matter on a world

[51:43] awaits is what it's called. I really I

[51:44] I've never met him, but I love the book.

[51:47] I think it's absolutely fantastic. And

[51:48] at the end of the book, you know a lot

[51:49] more and you still don't understand what

[51:51] consciousness is. You don't understand

[51:52] what it is. It's it's a lot of things.

[51:56] It's many things. It's sentience and

[51:59] it's feelings and it's awareness of

[52:02] others and it's awareness of yourself

[52:05] and we don't know where it is in the

[52:06] brain and oh my goodness but the truth

[52:08] is that that's one of the problems in in

[52:10] the field that I have too which is the

[52:12] the

[52:13] >> the definition of terms and satisfaction

[52:15] is one of these things satisfaction as I

[52:17] define it as many people define it is

[52:19] the joy that you get from an

[52:21] accomplishment after struggle that

[52:25] satisfaction so the satisfaction that

[52:27] you got from your PhD was proportionate

[52:29] to the suffering that actually went into

[52:31] getting your PhD and mine too, right?

[52:32] And they were like, "Oh man, I'm not

[52:34] doing that again." But it was so

[52:36] awesome. And you know, I think about,

[52:37] you know,

[52:37] >> but it was so awesome. Those those are

[52:39] the key words.

[52:40] >> I know. And it's like I talked to, you

[52:41] know, my kids my kids in the military

[52:44] there. I mean, being a Marine is no,

[52:46] you're not screwing around.

[52:47] >> And you know, I saw what my kids went

[52:49] through and you know, the infantry

[52:52] training battalion and the scout sniper

[52:54] indoctrination. And my daughter is, you

[52:56] know, and she's an officer. She actually

[52:58] had got her first salute from her

[52:59] brother. He's 6'5 and she's 4'11. It was

[53:02] awesome. You know, actually, your older

[53:04] brother has to salute you. It's great.

[53:06] So cool.

[53:06] >> Yeah, it's great. But, you know, it's

[53:08] it's people talk when I say, you know,

[53:10] tell me the story of your success.

[53:12] >> I mean, the people make jokes about it.

[53:13] You remember David Ko, one of the Koch

[53:15] brothers, you know, of of KO Industries

[53:17] in Witchah, Kansas. And he was a very,

[53:19] very funny guy. And he used to say,

[53:21] people say, "How did you get so rich?"

[53:23] And I say, "Well, it started when I was

[53:25] 12 years old and I found an apple and I

[53:27] was shining it up and I had paid a

[53:29] nickel for it and somebody offered me a

[53:30] dime and I said, "Oh, it's a 100% profit

[53:32] margin." So, I went back and bought two

[53:34] apples and I doubled my money. And I

[53:36] started doing this every day and every

[53:37] week, doubling my money and doubling my

[53:39] money. And you can do the math week

[53:41] after week and year after year. And

[53:42] finally, my father died, left me $100

[53:44] million. [laughter]

[53:47] >> That's good. And the reason that that's

[53:49] funny is because that flicks the

[53:51] parhipple gyrus and it makes you feel

[53:53] like that surprise like in every joke,

[53:55] right? But the reason it's funny is

[53:57] because real satisfaction from your

[53:58] accomplishments comes from the struggle,

[54:01] not from the accolades. That's what it

[54:03] really comes to because you earned it.

[54:05] And human beings are made to earn their

[54:07] success. This is the reason that they'll

[54:09] convince themselves that when somebody's

[54:11] giving them absolute utter large that

[54:14] they actually earned it in some way. If

[54:16] you want to get have your career

[54:18] destroyed as a politician, go to a bunch

[54:20] of senior citizens and tell them you're

[54:22] getting a lot back more back from social

[54:24] security than you ever paid in. Your

[54:27] career is over because you basically

[54:29] just, you know, flicked their

[54:31] parippocample gyrus in a very unpleasant

[54:33] way. You kicked it, right?

[54:35] >> So cool.

[54:35] >> And they don't like it. and and and so

[54:37] so the truth of the matter is that that

[54:40] he was saying that because the the

[54:43] answer that people are expecting is I

[54:45] suffered and I had three bankruptcies

[54:48] and you know I almost lost my marriage

[54:50] and I had to raid my kids' college fund

[54:53] and I was afraid you know like Bernie

[54:55] Marcus talks about the Home Depot and

[54:57] they were down their last dollar and it

[54:59] was and it was a it was grim is how he

[55:02] talked about it and and so that's really

[55:04] really important and that's one of the

[55:05] reasons that satisfaction which is so

[55:07] important you know we got to make

[55:08] progress why arrival leads to

[55:11] frustration but but progress toward

[55:13] goals is what is how we're wired purpose

[55:16] in life comes from goals of direction

[55:18] and progress called toward purpose and

[55:20] goals that's what purpose where our

[55:22] purpose in life actually comes from and

[55:24] and so the result of it is that we need

[55:26] to to have this sense that we're we're

[55:28] sacrificing for something that we're

[55:30] doing something that that that's bigger

[55:32] than who we are and we're willing to

[55:34] give something up. That's really one of

[55:37] the great secrets. It's one of the

[55:38] reasons also that when people hit their

[55:40] goals, they get so depressed is because

[55:42] there's no more progress. You know, it's

[55:44] why Olympic athletes are so likely to

[55:46] fall into a clinical depression after

[55:47] they win their their, you know, their

[55:49] gold medal. And why people are so when

[55:51] they win a billion dollars, they're

[55:52] like, I guess I need another billion. I

[55:56] guess I need, you know, because I don't

[55:57] I'm not feeling it, man. Because we're

[55:59] we're actually made for this progress.

[56:00] But the progress entails the struggle.

[56:02] We we judge your students, my students.

[56:05] There's no satisfaction that comes if

[56:07] they cheat on an exam. But if they work

[56:09] hard and get an A, that's very very

[56:11] satisfying. And you teach your kids

[56:12] this. Don't eat before dinner. It's not

[56:15] because of nutrition. It's because you

[56:17] want their synaptically plastic little

[56:19] brains to register the fact that that if

[56:21] they come to dinner hungry, dinner's

[56:23] better.

[56:24] >> Definitely.

[56:24] >> And you you you tell Junior, you know,

[56:26] don't eat before dinner because it's

[56:27] unhealthy. But if you were being honest,

[56:29] you'd say, I want you to suffer. That's

[56:31] why you can't have a snack.

[56:33] >> A few years ago, I was out a lot on the

[56:35] internet saying, you know, dopamine that

[56:37] comes without effort before it is is

[56:40] very pernicious. And um

[56:42] >> so true.

[56:42] >> I stand behind that. But some people

[56:44] like took the interpretation too far. It

[56:47] in part in an attempt to malign me,

[56:48] which is fine. Like, you know, I'm out

[56:50] there, you know. Yeah, sure. That that

[56:51] comes with the territory. But they it

[56:54] sort of implied I didn't have the

[56:55] language for it, but now I do, thanks to

[56:58] you. It's sort of implied that I don't

[56:59] believe in leisure,

[57:00] >> right? I don't want to return us to the

[57:02] first macronutrient um in a way that

[57:04] distracts us, but I think this is

[57:05] appropriate now. So, of course, leisure

[57:07] is great, but I would say leisure is way

[57:11] better when you've been working hard.

[57:13] And and so if you've been working hard

[57:15] towards something that has its own

[57:16] intrinsic reward, you the work itself

[57:18] can become intrinsically rewarding or

[57:20] not. You know, there are a lot of things

[57:22] I did in graduate school that absolutely

[57:23] loved the process. And there were some

[57:25] of them that like

[57:27] >> the only word for it is it sucked.

[57:29] >> It just it sucked.

[57:31] >> Allnighters like two days recording

[57:34] experiments and like just like breathing

[57:36] all that is in the room and it was just

[57:38] was like it sucked. But it and it was

[57:41] awesome. But there are forms of leisure.

[57:43] Like on those Fridays when we finished

[57:44] those experiments, I would drive out to

[57:47] this um this this orchard outside of

[57:50] Davis where I did graduate school to

[57:52] Winters and I would just there would be

[57:53] four phones. I would just listen to

[57:54] music in my car

[57:56] >> and I just felt like I felt like I'd

[57:59] been transported in time. That's right.

[58:00] >> And I felt connected to all the people

[58:03] who had worked a hard week and then were

[58:04] just listening to music in their car.

[58:07] And then eventually my girlfriend and I

[58:08] would drive out there and now I could

[58:09] share that experience with her and she

[58:11] was a scientist and worked really really

[58:13] hard too. Um arguably even harder than I

[58:16] was because the experiment she was doing

[58:17] took took a yet another level of of um

[58:20] persistence that really remarkable. So

[58:23] it's not that um saying that effort has

[58:25] to be there before dopamine is like

[58:27] means you're a onetrack like

[58:29] self-optimization junkie,

[58:31] >> right? It's just an important pie slice

[58:34] in in being a like a good human being in

[58:37] my opinion. So like so I kind of bristle

[58:39] at the idea that a concept like that

[58:42] could be construed as as um

[58:46] anti-pleasure but in a sense it's really

[58:50] like there's something about the human

[58:51] mind where we want we hear one piece of

[58:53] this we hear about one pie slice we say

[58:56] oh so that means like

[58:58] >> leisure doesn't exist for this person

[59:00] but but what I love about your work and

[59:01] what you're telling us today is that

[59:03] >> it's really about the complete pie chart

[59:06] >> it's not about

[59:08] working with our with our brains,

[59:09] working with our biology. We are built

[59:11] to earn our rewards.

[59:13] >> We are built to earn our success.

[59:15] >> We have no concept of what anything is

[59:17] worth if we don't earn our success. And

[59:20] and you know the the reason that we want

[59:22] to do things, we think that you know

[59:23] that a a Snickers bar gives you

[59:25] pleasure. No, no, no, no, no. It's

[59:27] actually the neurochemicals that are

[59:28] giving you pleasure that are

[59:29] [clears throat] actually making you feel

[59:30] this pleasure. It just happens to that

[59:33] through the the way that the brain

[59:34] works. Getting your PhD didn't give you

[59:36] pleasure per se. There was nothing about

[59:37] the piece of paper. It was actually the

[59:39] knowledge that you had done this thing.

[59:42] And so, one of the greatest secrets to

[59:44] excellence and success in people's lives

[59:45] is the sense of earning it. And that

[59:48] means making peace with suffering,

[59:50] making peace with with pain, making

[59:53] peace with struggle is what it comes

[59:55] down to. Now, that doesn't mean and and

[59:57] one of the biggest mistakes that strive

[59:59] often make is that it's all struggle.

[1:00:00] You mean you remember this the the the

[1:00:03] not discredited but complicated Walter

[1:00:06] Michelle marshmallow experiments at your

[1:00:08] fine institution and and and what they

[1:00:11] you know the followup you know the kids

[1:00:12] who ate the marshmallow within 5 minutes

[1:00:15] they were they had no impulse control

[1:00:17] and they went on to actually get worse

[1:00:18] grades and worse jobs etc. And the 20%

[1:00:21] of the kids in the marshmallow

[1:00:22] experiment who were able to not eat the

[1:00:24] marshmallow and they got the second

[1:00:25] marshmallow they did much better in

[1:00:26] life. And the whole point was the

[1:00:28] deferral of gratification is a big

[1:00:30] signal of how well you're actually going

[1:00:32] to do. One of the biggest problems the

[1:00:34] strivers have and I'm speaking to all

[1:00:35] the stvers watching us right now is that

[1:00:38] they don't know what their marshmallow

[1:00:39] even is. And so they're just going to

[1:00:41] wait their whole lives and that's not

[1:00:43] what you've been saying. That's not what

[1:00:45] you're talking about to never never

[1:00:47] never drive out into the out to winters.

[1:00:50] to never actually listen to the music,

[1:00:53] to never actually wait for the second

[1:00:54] marshmallow and enjoy that second

[1:00:56] marshmallow. That's a mistake, too.

[1:00:58] That's actually a huge mistake. But the

[1:01:00] whole point is we're trying to find the

[1:01:01] golden mean between earning it and not

[1:01:05] earning it. That doing enough and

[1:01:07] struggling enough and then actually

[1:01:08] taking the reward and then starting

[1:01:10] again. This actually feeds into a lot of

[1:01:12] experiences that people have. A big part

[1:01:14] of my work is how to age well, about how

[1:01:16] to get happier as you age. You

[1:01:18] >> do tell.

[1:01:19] >> Yeah. I mean, it's super important. And

[1:01:20] part of the reason is because, man, I'm

[1:01:22] no spring chicken. And and and and this

[1:01:24] is me search, right, for all of us.

[1:01:26] We're always doing me search instead of

[1:01:28] research. And so, I want to know how can

[1:01:30] I be happier at 60 than 50. And now I

[1:01:32] want to know how I can be happy years

[1:01:34] down the road at 70 instead of 60. I

[1:01:37] want to know how to retire. And so, when

[1:01:39] I'm giving people advice, I'm doing

[1:01:40] public education about these things

[1:01:41] because I've been trying to answer these

[1:01:42] questions for myself. Retirement is a

[1:01:45] classic case of screwing up the

[1:01:47] satisfaction part of happiness. It's

[1:01:49] like, I'm going to work and work and

[1:01:50] work and work. I'm going to be a

[1:01:51] miserable sob and then at 65 I'm going

[1:01:54] to stop completely and just goof around.

[1:01:56] That's the recipe for misery all the way

[1:01:59] through because it was no fun. It was

[1:02:01] all suffering without reward and then

[1:02:04] it's all reward without suffering.

[1:02:06] That's neurohysiologically unound, but

[1:02:10] it's also philosophically unound. it

[1:02:12] doesn't actually make sense. So, I help

[1:02:14] people retire constantly, but I also try

[1:02:16] to help them have the best life as they

[1:02:18] do to move through the course of their

[1:02:19] careers, do what they're actually

[1:02:21] naturally good at that is both hard and

[1:02:23] rewarding, which changes over the course

[1:02:25] of your career. There's there's a lot of

[1:02:27] research on that, but it all gets into

[1:02:29] how can I maintain satisfaction. The

[1:02:31] mystery comes when we actually do get

[1:02:34] the thing that we actually want and then

[1:02:36] we find that it leaves us cold.

[1:02:38] >> That seems like a real tyranny. like

[1:02:41] mother nature had a trick up her sleeve

[1:02:43] which kind of she did. I mean you

[1:02:45] actually people if I can get that watch

[1:02:48] that car that marriage then I'll be

[1:02:51] happy forever. I mean guys will say to

[1:02:52] women you know if you marry me you'll

[1:02:55] make me happy forever. That's not right.

[1:02:58] You know it doesn't matter what she says

[1:03:00] when you propose. It doesn't matter what

[1:03:02] she says on her wedding day. It's what

[1:03:03] you say to each other over the course of

[1:03:04] your entire marriage

[1:03:06] >> that actually will give you net net the

[1:03:09] best possible life. That's why MC Jagger

[1:03:12] saying I can't get no satisfaction. He

[1:03:14] should have saying I can't keep no

[1:03:15] satisfaction. And that that's a whole

[1:03:18] different as we say in Seattle a whole

[1:03:20] another problem mystery.

[1:03:23] >> Is that a Seattleism?

[1:03:24] >> I guess so. I don't know. as I did.

[1:03:26] >> There's so many articles out there and

[1:03:29] websites and blogs that are like

[1:03:31] >> the six things that people say on their

[1:03:34] deathbed. Nobody says, "I wish I worked

[1:03:36] more." I don't know. My dad, he's in his

[1:03:39] early 80s and he's still rocking and he

[1:03:41] loves his work, right?

[1:03:42] >> And he loves his wife and he loves his

[1:03:44] kids and he loves his coffee and he

[1:03:45] loves his meditation. He loves life.

[1:03:47] >> He's a happy guy.

[1:03:48] >> And he would say like work has been a

[1:03:50] he's giving just still working,

[1:03:53] consuming ideas, giving lectures. He I

[1:03:55] think he would say he was really glad he

[1:03:58] worked as much as he did, not more than

[1:04:00] that.

[1:04:01] >> But these lists to me are not useful,

[1:04:03] whether it's about work or whether it's

[1:04:05] about anything because the lists to me

[1:04:08] are really about the question when I

[1:04:12] look back on my life, I want to be able

[1:04:14] to say blank. Okay, I feel like that

[1:04:18] analysis peeled back to like when I

[1:04:20] finish my college degree, I want to be

[1:04:22] able to say, "All right, that can inform

[1:04:24] some choices going forward. Make good

[1:04:25] friends, got enriched myself

[1:04:27] intellectually, etc., etc. didn't, you

[1:04:29] know, got healthier as opposed to less

[1:04:31] healthy." You could do that, but it's

[1:04:34] not I feel like it's the wrong question.

[1:04:35] >> Yeah.

[1:04:36] >> Like it's the wrong thing when I look

[1:04:37] back on my life. I like how about now

[1:04:40] and the decisions you can make today,

[1:04:41] this week, this month, this year.

[1:04:43] because that's how you end up in a place

[1:04:44] where

[1:04:45] >> and let's face it most likely those last

[1:04:47] moments they could be very peaceful and

[1:04:49] beautiful but you don't know

[1:04:51] >> so we we imagine this kind of like

[1:04:53] before the curtains closed moment that

[1:04:56] some people get

[1:04:57] >> but I don't think most people get that

[1:05:00] I've watched people die it's not it's

[1:05:02] usually not like that it's I feel like

[1:05:05] we tend to integrate our levels of

[1:05:06] satisfaction pleasure lack pain etc on a

[1:05:09] much shorter time scale so is there a

[1:05:11] better set of questions questions and

[1:05:13] answers that we can come up with for

[1:05:15] living in the now so that we are

[1:05:17] steering right through

[1:05:20] the more of the time that we have

[1:05:21] between now and whenever it is that that

[1:05:23] curtain closes.

[1:05:24] >> Yes, for sure. There's a lot actually on

[1:05:26] this and there's it touches on a couple

[1:05:27] of different things. Now, to begin with,

[1:05:29] this really gets into the third

[1:05:30] macronutrient, which is meaning and and

[1:05:33] what what are we doing to understand the

[1:05:35] meaning of our lives? Ultimately that

[1:05:37] knowledge is the most important

[1:05:38] macronutrient the most philosophical the

[1:05:41] most I mean it gets closest to the you

[1:05:43] know the the problem the hard problem of

[1:05:44] consciousness to to use Chowmer's his

[1:05:47] his his formulation on this etc etc but

[1:05:50] there's a lot that goes into it to begin

[1:05:51] with it's you know it's like these are

[1:05:53] David Brooks talks about no no relation

[1:05:56] friend but no relation he talks about

[1:05:58] resume versus eulogy virtues and you

[1:06:01] know you it's true you know it's

[1:06:03] probably better if you don't imagine

[1:06:05] people at your funeral saying he had 5

[1:06:07] million miles on Delta. I mean, that's

[1:06:10] probably

[1:06:10] >> I got some friends who are like really

[1:06:12] into their points on their cars. It's a

[1:06:14] video game. It's an adultish.

[1:06:16] >> Yeah. They're trying to count their

[1:06:18] scoreboard. And and part of the reason

[1:06:19] is because that's that's a sense of

[1:06:20] satisfaction, you know? It's it's

[1:06:22] they're trying to get that they they

[1:06:24] want to make progress, progress toward a

[1:06:25] goal, goals and direction, making

[1:06:27] progress. We're progressoriented

[1:06:29] animals, which is why the scoreboard is

[1:06:30] so important. The trouble is that when

[1:06:32] once you run up the scoreboard after a

[1:06:34] certain point, I mean, you die and stay

[1:06:36] dead and you realize that nobody

[1:06:38] actually cares. And so if all anybody

[1:06:40] talks about is this is this score this

[1:06:42] this trivial scoreboard, which is

[1:06:46] frequent flyer miles or money in a bank

[1:06:48] account, right? Or or any of these other

[1:06:51] worldly things that's a problem. And

[1:06:52] that really leads to the first criterion

[1:06:54] for what actually is going to lead to

[1:06:57] regret and what isn't. And that that's a

[1:06:59] deep philosophical thing that has has a

[1:07:02] lot of roots in in in classical

[1:07:04] philosophy but but also a lot of

[1:07:06] behavioral science behind it as well. So

[1:07:08] Aristotle v visav St. Thomas Aquinas in

[1:07:11] in the 13th century he he asserted that

[1:07:15] we want to be happy. Okay, fair this is

[1:07:19] pretty good. Now he his definition of

[1:07:20] happiness was beatitudo

[1:07:23] which is the the the luminescence of

[1:07:25] presence of god right to the

[1:07:27] relationship with god. Other people

[1:07:29] define it in different ways who are not

[1:07:30] traditionally religious but I think

[1:07:32] everybody would agree yeah we want to be

[1:07:34] happy. He said that to do that I mean

[1:07:38] you you have a tendency to to to follow

[1:07:40] your animal impulses. So far so good.

[1:07:42] Gets back to an early part of the

[1:07:44] conversation. And he said, "Your animal

[1:07:45] impulses tell you one fundamental lie."

[1:07:49] And that fundamental lie is that these

[1:07:52] the following four things when they

[1:07:54] beguile you and you get them that you'll

[1:07:57] be actually happy and you'll be finally

[1:07:59] satisfied. You'll finally be there.

[1:08:01] Those four things are money, resources,

[1:08:04] power, which is influence over other

[1:08:06] people, pleasure, which also is comfort

[1:08:09] or security, right? or honor which means

[1:08:13] you know for you and me as academics

[1:08:14] it's like hey that's Andrew Hubman he

[1:08:16] wrote that paper in the journal of you

[1:08:18] know seven dimensional you know

[1:08:20] disappearing manifolds or you know some

[1:08:22] academic journal nobody's ever heard of

[1:08:24] but still academic prestige admiration

[1:08:26] whatever it happens to be those are

[1:08:28] beguiling idols that if you pursue those

[1:08:32] things as an end per se there's nothing

[1:08:33] evil about them they can be used for

[1:08:35] great good but if you use them as an end

[1:08:38] per se that's when you'll wind up in

[1:08:40] trouble. That's the problem that we

[1:08:43] actually get. So they say, nobody says,

[1:08:45] I wish I'd worked more. What they should

[1:08:46] say is nobody says, I wish I'd gotten a

[1:08:49] little bit more famous. I wish I had

[1:08:51] had, you know, a million more dollars in

[1:08:54] my 401k that I have no idea what's going

[1:08:57] to actually happen to it. That's really

[1:08:58] what they're saying. And so back up from

[1:09:00] that and to for us to be happier, we

[1:09:03] need to assess whether or not we are

[1:09:05] serving these worldly idols. And that's

[1:09:07] incredibly good behavioral science

[1:09:09] because that is an almost perfect uh

[1:09:12] taxonomy of the things that we that we

[1:09:15] actually chase. I have a game I play

[1:09:17] with my students at HBS. They don't know

[1:09:19] what their idol is. They don't know what

[1:09:21] it is. And again, I got nothing against

[1:09:23] money. I think money can be does

[1:09:25] wonderful things. Jobs, opportunity,

[1:09:27] growth, taxes, philanthropy. There's

[1:09:29] nothing wrong with power. Influence

[1:09:32] other people wielded in a virtuous way.

[1:09:34] Pleasure. I mean pleasure leads to

[1:09:37] babies. So great fame. You can refract

[1:09:41] your fame. I mean there are lots and

[1:09:42] lots of people I promise you Andrew

[1:09:44] there are lots of people pursuing their

[1:09:45] PhDs right now because of your fame

[1:09:47] which is a beautiful and a good thing

[1:09:49] for humanity. The problem is it'll hurt

[1:09:51] you if one of these things is your

[1:09:54] primary objective is your primary goal

[1:09:57] and you endow it with with mythical

[1:10:00] power. So I play a game with them.

[1:10:02] What's my idol? They don't know. They

[1:10:04] don't know what their idol is. You want

[1:10:05] to play?

[1:10:06] >> Yeah.

[1:10:06] >> Want to play? What's my idol?

[1:10:08] >> Yeah, I'm a little scared, but let's do

[1:10:09] it.

[1:10:09] >> Let's do it.

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[1:11:20] know what your idol is and again what

[1:11:22] Aquinus suggests and what modern social

[1:11:24] science absolutely verifies is that

[1:11:28] again nothing wrong with these things

[1:11:29] but if you pursue this this winds up

[1:11:32] being the source of your later

[1:11:33] bitterness and regret. The reason is

[1:11:35] because when you pursue these things

[1:11:36] you're doing it at cost and the cost is

[1:11:39] almost always love.

[1:11:40] >> Love is the secret to happiness. To love

[1:11:42] and be loved is what we want. And when

[1:11:45] you pursue something that's not real,

[1:11:47] that's not alive, then you're you're

[1:11:49] sacrificing opportunities to love and be

[1:11:51] loved if you pursue it as a goal, per

[1:11:53] se. But when you know what your idol is,

[1:11:55] you'll still make mistakes. You're still

[1:11:56] going to mess up. You're still going to

[1:11:57] be miserable a lot, but you will

[1:12:00] sometimes avoid the error and which is

[1:12:03] incredibly powerful. The way to play

[1:12:05] this game is to eliminate because you

[1:12:07] always do elimination when you're trying

[1:12:08] to do these things. It's much more

[1:12:10] robust. It's actually better.

[1:12:12] Eliminate the idol that you don't have

[1:12:15] one by one by one. It's going to get

[1:12:16] harder as we go along. It's going to

[1:12:18] start off really really easy. I can even

[1:12:20] make predictions about you about what

[1:12:22] what you would eliminate, but eliminate

[1:12:24] them until you until you've got the last

[1:12:26] one. And that's the one that's most

[1:12:27] likely to beguile you and lead you down

[1:12:29] the wrong road. So, money,

[1:12:32] resources, power, pleasure,

[1:12:35] fame, or adoration of other people. You

[1:12:38] you're going to get rid of one. And this

[1:12:39] doesn't mean you don't have it. It just

[1:12:41] means you're the population average.

[1:12:42] >> Get get rid of one of those.

[1:12:44] >> Yeah. If you got rid of money, for

[1:12:45] example, you say, "I don't care about

[1:12:46] it." That just means you're the most

[1:12:48] average American economically, which by

[1:12:50] world standards is unbelievable. And

[1:12:52] historical standards is fabulously

[1:12:53] wealthy.

[1:12:54] >> So you said it was money.

[1:12:55] >> Uhhuh.

[1:12:57] >> Power,

[1:12:57] >> pleasure. And pleasure can also be

[1:12:59] comfort or security,

[1:13:01] >> right? Or and and honor, which is

[1:13:04] prestige or fame or adoration or

[1:13:05] whatever it happens to be or respect.

[1:13:07] >> And power can be uh benevolent too,

[1:13:09] right?

[1:13:09] >> Totally. All these all could be great

[1:13:11] because the most virtuous happy people

[1:13:13] have these things.

[1:13:14] >> Yeah,

[1:13:15] >> they have a lot of these things.

[1:13:16] >> Yeah. I don't I don't care about uh I

[1:13:19] don't care much about um the notion of

[1:13:21] like honor and accolades. In fact, just

[1:13:23] as a very brief anecdote, it was right.

[1:13:26] I'd been tenured for maybe three, four

[1:13:28] years. Yeah. And I was struggling

[1:13:30] financially as a professor despite what

[1:13:32] people might think about Stanford and I

[1:13:34] was happy to one of those. And so I had

[1:13:36] a conversation with uh my then chair or

[1:13:39] was it vice chair? And he said well you

[1:13:41] know at some point

[1:13:42] >> you know you'll be chair and then of the

[1:13:44] department because it's rotating chair.

[1:13:46] I'm still in this department by the way.

[1:13:47] We'll see if I still am at the end of

[1:13:48] this conversation. What what the heck?

[1:13:50] And he said you know it comes with a a

[1:13:51] pay increase. And I was like, really?

[1:13:53] And I I thought about I'd seen what

[1:13:55] happened to chairs of departments

[1:13:57] couldn't focus too much on science. A

[1:13:59] totally it's a um punishment disguised

[1:14:01] as an honor.

[1:14:02] >> It's a punishment to any real scientist,

[1:14:04] but they may but they cloak it and they

[1:14:06] say, "No, this is service to the

[1:14:07] department."

[1:14:08] >> And that's true,

[1:14:09] >> right?

[1:14:12] >> Some people are exceptional at I have a

[1:14:13] close friend of mine for childhood. He's

[1:14:14] a chair. And but the chair needs certain

[1:14:16] attributes

[1:14:17] >> that that um are important. And I and so

[1:14:20] my the response out of my mouth was how

[1:14:22] do I make sure I never become chair?

[1:14:25] [laughter]

[1:14:26] Well, so I think now it's very unlikely

[1:14:28] I'll be chair of the department. I'm not

[1:14:29] around enough. But um [clears throat]

[1:14:31] like how do I make absolutely sure that

[1:14:33] I'm like not like like I'll do anything

[1:14:37] to not be chair by virtue of the fact

[1:14:38] that my dad's a scientist and I grew up

[1:14:40] seeing a lot of scientists and hearing

[1:14:42] about a lot of luminaries of science. I

[1:14:43] heard I heard this story about Richard

[1:14:45] Fineman, the great Richard Fineman where

[1:14:47] apparently I don't know if this is true

[1:14:49] or not, but he was elected into the

[1:14:50] National Academy of Sciences and I think

[1:14:52] at the inaugural dinner he said like to

[1:14:54] someone like, "Well, what happens now?"

[1:14:56] And they go, "Oh, you elect other people

[1:14:57] in." And he goes, "Wait, so this is like

[1:14:59] a club where like we pin medals on each

[1:15:00] other." He go and he goes, "I quit.

[1:15:03] [laughter] If it's not true, it's

[1:15:04] awesome. If it's true, it's awesome."

[1:15:05] That's funny.

[1:15:06] >> And and I knew

[1:15:08] >> that true or not, what the what the

[1:15:10] story illustrates is that like those

[1:15:12] honors mean nothing. In fact, the most

[1:15:15] important thing about a Nobel Prize, I

[1:15:17] believe, is that it allows the winner in

[1:15:20] addition to the value of the discovery,

[1:15:21] but it allows the winner to be a great

[1:15:23] fundraiser for other people at the

[1:15:24] university.

[1:15:26] >> That's it.

[1:15:27] >> Yeah.

[1:15:28] >> And so, and the discovery obviously, but

[1:15:31] um anyway, so honor doesn't really like

[1:15:33] like I'm not interested in medals or

[1:15:34] things. I got a PhD because I needed one

[1:15:36] to get to know.

[1:15:37] >> But you become super famous as a public

[1:15:38] intellectual. Is that important? Does

[1:15:40] that motivate you? Because that's, you

[1:15:41] know, that's a different kettle of fish,

[1:15:43] isn't it?

[1:15:44] >> I will go on record saying that uh fame

[1:15:48] increases your opportunities

[1:15:50] exponentially and limits your freedoms

[1:15:52] exponentially.

[1:15:53] >> Um, no, it's not important to me. It's

[1:15:55] it's a it's a um it's a byproduct of the

[1:15:59] pursuit of other things.

[1:16:00] >> Are you an introvert or an extrovert?

[1:16:02] strongly introverted despite how much I

[1:16:04] talk. Got it. I need a lot of time. I

[1:16:06] get it. I need a lot. You should see me

[1:16:07] when I'm alone. I talk even more. No,

[1:16:09] I'm kidding.

[1:16:09] >> You're probably exhausted after a

[1:16:10] podcast.

[1:16:11] >> Yeah, I love my team and but I interact

[1:16:14] with very few people on purpose. No, I

[1:16:17] um very I need time um to think and I

[1:16:22] love people, but I'm very very

[1:16:24] introverted.

[1:16:24] >> I got it. Yeah, I got it. Okay. Go. So,

[1:16:26] I I believe you. And so, you'd go to the

[1:16:27] normal the most normal. You'd be as

[1:16:29] famous as your mailman. Oh, that would

[1:16:32] be awesome. Okay. I have the best like

[1:16:34] the people that clean up my

[1:16:35] neighborhood. I live in a pretty grungy

[1:16:36] neighborhood. My place I do my best to

[1:16:39] keep really nice. These people are like

[1:16:40] my heroes. I'm always bringing the

[1:16:42] matina and like they they're out there

[1:16:44] like they're literally scraping up

[1:16:47] from [laughter]

[1:16:48] animals people. Like I love these people

[1:16:50] and they're so like the ones I know so

[1:16:53] happy. They're so happy. And I'm like,

[1:16:54] man, one, maybe someday I just like

[1:16:56] throw on one of those orange vests and

[1:16:57] just like disappear into like,

[1:17:00] >> you know, I won't name a town, but Yeah.

[1:17:02] >> You don't don't name the town or pretty

[1:17:03] soon they'll find you.

[1:17:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]

[1:17:06] >> So, okay. Good, good, good. Now, we got

[1:17:08] rid of the easy one in a way.

[1:17:10] >> Money, power, pleasure.

[1:17:12] >> What's next? That means it's going to be

[1:17:14] a little harder because all these things

[1:17:16] are, you know, have their rewards.

[1:17:17] >> Yeah.

[1:17:18] >> So, which one do you get rid of next?

[1:17:19] >> Pleasure.

[1:17:20] >> Pleasure. And then because you're pretty

[1:17:21] austere. I mean, you're you're I mean,

[1:17:23] look, your book's called Protocols.

[1:17:25] >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I inherited my my

[1:17:28] mom's um

[1:17:31] people I was this kind of like um

[1:17:34] observer comes on where like people are

[1:17:36] going to think I'm like scripting this.

[1:17:37] My mom has a save the world piece of her

[1:17:40] that's very real and very alive in me.

[1:17:42] But the thing we also share like a

[1:17:44] desire to to save change, positive

[1:17:46] change. But the thing that comes alive

[1:17:48] in me that I definitely got from her,

[1:17:50] it's like if an emotion like gets to me,

[1:17:53] if it comes up, it's big. Like I like

[1:17:57] the people I love, I love so big that

[1:17:59] sometimes I think the top of my head's

[1:18:00] going to explode

[1:18:01] >> like or that I think like my heart's

[1:18:03] going to explode.

[1:18:04] >> And and it's and it's not comfortable.

[1:18:06] >> It's a um it's I've gotten better at

[1:18:09] tolerating that.

[1:18:11] >> Yeah. It makes me emotional cuz I I do

[1:18:13] think that like grief is proportional to

[1:18:14] love and but so I don't walk out of my

[1:18:16] podcast studio where I work with my best

[1:18:19] friends. Not all of them but all of them

[1:18:21] are my best friends. It's not but I have

[1:18:22] best friends elsewhere too. But I walk

[1:18:24] out and I don't think oh god like

[1:18:26] >> one of them might die on the road

[1:18:27] tonight. I just think I'm the luckiest

[1:18:30] >> human being on the planet to work with

[1:18:31] these people doing. So but it fills me

[1:18:33] so much sometimes. It's a lot. It's a

[1:18:36] lot to to tolerate. So pleasure is not

[1:18:39] something that I like I don't need more

[1:18:41] intense experiences. I'm having intense

[1:18:43] experiences from the moment I wake up

[1:18:45] until the moment I go to sleep.

[1:18:46] >> Yeah. Yeah. And you and you're and

[1:18:48] you're not a drinker. You're not a

[1:18:49] >> I'm not a drinker. I've never been a

[1:18:50] drug guy.

[1:18:51] >> So let me say something nice about your

[1:18:53] mom. Okay. So the fact that you kicked

[1:18:56] out uh honor right from the very

[1:18:59] beginning. You know what honor addicts

[1:19:00] all have in common? They think that love

[1:19:02] is earned.

[1:19:03] >> That's what they all have in common.

[1:19:04] They usually have this common childhood

[1:19:06] where they're really really good at

[1:19:07] something. I know you were a good

[1:19:08] student and you were a good skateboarder

[1:19:09] and you were good at I was wait to be

[1:19:11] fair before the the internet comes for

[1:19:13] me. I was not a very good skateboarder

[1:19:14] which drove me toward academics because

[1:19:16] I kept getting hurt. I loved the sport

[1:19:18] and I was a I was a good student but I

[1:19:20] was not I I always had to work hard.

[1:19:23] >> Yeah. It's very easy for for for a lot

[1:19:25] of young people, particularly the young

[1:19:27] people of of those who are of

[1:19:28] intellectuals and and excellent people

[1:19:30] to learn from their parents that they

[1:19:32] get attention and affection when they do

[1:19:34] something unusual.

[1:19:35] >> And the result is that their little

[1:19:36] brains register the idea that love is

[1:19:38] earned. And love isn't earned. Love is a

[1:19:40] free gift freely given. Love is a grace.

[1:19:42] Mh.

[1:19:42] >> And if you go through life, particularly

[1:19:43] in the most plastic part of your of

[1:19:47] your, you know, your psychological

[1:19:48] formation, thinking that love is earned,

[1:19:50] you'll surround yourself with people who

[1:19:52] will make you make you earn their love.

[1:19:54] You'll marry somebody who who will make

[1:19:57] you earn her love

[1:19:58] >> and friends who kiss up to you and say,

[1:20:00] "You got to earn my love." And the

[1:20:02] result is you'll go from person to

[1:20:03] person to person. You'll be a real honor

[1:20:05] addict. And and what what people have in

[1:20:07] common is that they have a big public

[1:20:09] life which happened to you that you'll

[1:20:11] crave the adoration of strangers. You'll

[1:20:14] actually crave it because that's the

[1:20:15] addiction is trying to earn the love

[1:20:17] even of strangers. And that's a big

[1:20:19] problem. So who actually made you whole?

[1:20:23] >> Probably your mom,

[1:20:24] >> probably your parents because they loved

[1:20:26] you unconditionally and they probably

[1:20:28] still do.

[1:20:29] >> That's good parenting. Yeah, that's

[1:20:31] >> they definitely did and they and they uh

[1:20:33] love love us unconditionally and they

[1:20:35] definitely do. And um yeah, I get a zero

[1:20:40] zero dopamine hit from people saying,

[1:20:42] "Oh, you're so and so. Can I get get a

[1:20:43] picture?" It doesn't bother me,

[1:20:45] >> right?

[1:20:45] >> What does fill me is when I get an email

[1:20:48] that somebody's like, "I'm going to go

[1:20:49] study neuroscience or I did this thing

[1:20:51] and it really, you know, I learned from

[1:20:53] so and so on your podcast and and it's

[1:20:55] and it's enriched my life." That feels

[1:20:56] really good because then I feel like,

[1:20:58] okay, great. Like I at least I know I'm

[1:21:00] not wasting my time.

[1:21:01] >> Yeah.

[1:21:01] >> You know,

[1:21:02] >> money and money and power

[1:21:04] >> and money just means resources. It's the

[1:21:06] ability to do stuff. It doesn't mean

[1:21:07] that it makes you more whole as a

[1:21:09] person, but it and and often this can

[1:21:11] the answer can come from a sense of

[1:21:13] identity. So often money idol will come

[1:21:16] from people who grew up rich because

[1:21:18] that's what it means to be a normal

[1:21:20] person. They or they grow up poor

[1:21:22] because they know how bad it is when you

[1:21:23] don't have it. So there's all kinds of

[1:21:24] circumstances that can provoke this and

[1:21:26] and and power is just like I I want to

[1:21:28] be in charge. I really really want to be

[1:21:30] in charge,

[1:21:31] >> which is not it's not it's not a vice.

[1:21:34] It's not a you know, but but it's really

[1:21:36] what drives you. So which one do you get

[1:21:37] rid of next?

[1:21:38] >> Money.

[1:21:38] >> Money, which is you you become the most

[1:21:40] you become economically just like your

[1:21:42] postman.

[1:21:43] >> Yeah, I I'd be fine.

[1:21:45] >> Who probably has?

[1:21:45] >> And I'm saying that now from a position

[1:21:47] of financial security. So it like

[1:21:49] >> No. No. And look there in the comments

[1:21:50] somebody's going to say, you know,

[1:21:52] >> easy to say. Hubberman and Brooks are

[1:21:54] yeah like completely full of it because

[1:21:55] they're you know right I got it but I

[1:21:57] believe you

[1:21:57] >> yeah but

[1:21:58] >> because you look you have been in both

[1:22:00] situations

[1:22:01] >> definitely so my chairman in San Diego

[1:22:04] before I moved my lab to Stanford he had

[1:22:05] the I went to him for a salary increase

[1:22:07] so in that department you could set your

[1:22:09] own salary as long as it wasn't higher

[1:22:11] than his

[1:22:12] >> and I had a lot of grants

[1:22:13] >> get him a raise

[1:22:14] >> what what what do you want to earn what

[1:22:16] do you want to earn and I told him and

[1:22:18] he said no there was no parody in that

[1:22:20] department in our in my department at

[1:22:21] Stanford there is you I you can't make

[1:22:23] more than someone more senior than you,

[1:22:25] right? So parody is important in certain

[1:22:27] departments, not in others.

[1:22:29] >> And uh I had a lot of grants. I'd like a

[1:22:31] raise of $20,000 this year, which on the

[1:22:34] significant fraction of what I was

[1:22:36] making.

[1:22:36] >> And um and he said, "Just remember, he

[1:22:39] like did the whole like pivot and look

[1:22:41] thing like that like you're not allowed

[1:22:43] to do anymore like like male chairman

[1:22:45] pivots towards you like like sitting

[1:22:47] with his knees open and he like did like

[1:22:49] you can never get away with this

[1:22:50] anymore." And he said, "Just remember,

[1:22:52] you're going to make a lot less money

[1:22:53] than you deserve." He was talking about

[1:22:55] then and he's like, "And then in the

[1:22:57] later part of your career," he was

[1:22:58] talking about himself, "you're going to

[1:22:59] make a lot more money than you deserve

[1:23:00] because you're going to have 10 year

[1:23:02] guy." And he was absolutely right.

[1:23:03] There's Bill Mobly. He's still alive and

[1:23:05] and um he's actually a meditator. He's

[1:23:07] friends with the Dollaly Lama. So, hi,

[1:23:08] Bill. He was absolutely right.

[1:23:10] >> I didn't know how that was going to

[1:23:12] happen or anything. I didn't know it was

[1:23:13] going to happen, but it turned out that

[1:23:14] that's true. So if I were to average my

[1:23:17] income

[1:23:18] >> back across two and a half decades of

[1:23:21] >> yeah I I was perfectly happy to live in

[1:23:23] a lab sp and save up a little bit of

[1:23:25] money to be able to go snowboarding once

[1:23:26] a month in graduate school. Like why pay

[1:23:29] rent? They have showers in the building.

[1:23:30] They're called monkey cage washers

[1:23:32] >> you know like you know like [laughter]

[1:23:35] you can't turn the heat on you know like

[1:23:36] they have a bathroom with a sink. Like

[1:23:38] people thought I was crazy right? But

[1:23:40] then then I didn't have to commute, you

[1:23:42] know. Now granted, I wasn't married with

[1:23:43] kids or anything, so I've lived both

[1:23:44] ways. I wouldn't say I've ever been

[1:23:46] poor. I won't I want to be honest.

[1:23:49] >> Money is not like

[1:23:51] >> it's great.

[1:23:52] >> It's not that fun.

[1:23:54] >> I mean,

[1:23:54] >> it's not that much you can you imagine

[1:23:56] like having a boat.

[1:23:57] >> No, that'd be a pain. Save me from the

[1:23:58] boat.

[1:23:59] >> No, no. I had to go on a long boat thing

[1:24:01] with my grandfather. It was It was like

[1:24:03] It was torturous. I want to go out on

[1:24:04] the boat for a day. I like seeing boats

[1:24:05] on the ocean. I like scuba diving. I'm

[1:24:07] not No. I it would be nice. We're

[1:24:10] talking extremes here, but no, money is

[1:24:11] not a a big motivator for it's nice to

[1:24:13] have, but I'll tell you

[1:24:15] >> I'm sort of answering what I think will

[1:24:16] be the next question. The best thing

[1:24:18] about having money is that I can use it

[1:24:20] to do things for other people. And that

[1:24:22] falls to me under this thing that you're

[1:24:24] calling power, but benevolent power,

[1:24:26] >> but also gives you freedom. And freedom

[1:24:28] is nice.

[1:24:29] >> Freedom is nice. And being able to make

[1:24:33] I'm not just making this up to make life

[1:24:35] easier.

[1:24:35] >> Yeah. by way of money or by way of

[1:24:39] connections. Like we were talking

[1:24:40] earlier about I know a lot of people who

[1:24:42] either have or know people with serious

[1:24:43] medical issues and I can connect them to

[1:24:45] the

[1:24:46] >> like to the one of three people that

[1:24:49] might actually be able to help them when

[1:24:51] no one else can.

[1:24:52] >> Like I've got story after story about I

[1:24:54] don't take credit. I just happen to know

[1:24:55] the best people in these little

[1:24:56] subdomains

[1:24:58] >> and it doesn't always work out that way

[1:25:00] but a lot of times they're like

[1:25:02] >> wow.

[1:25:03] >> And so I'm not the physician. I'm just

[1:25:05] the concierge. But the fact that I have

[1:25:08] this job allows me to do that,

[1:25:10] >> right?

[1:25:10] >> And the degree allows me to do that.

[1:25:12] Money doesn't allow me to do that,

[1:25:13] >> right?

[1:25:14] >> It's just my network is insane.

[1:25:16] >> Yeah. No, for sure.

[1:25:17] >> And the ability to use it for to help

[1:25:19] other people like and part of that is

[1:25:21] having people like you on this podcast,

[1:25:23] >> right? Like I Rob and I sometimes talk

[1:25:26] like I was like I can't believe it. Like

[1:25:28] we had like FA Lee on here. It's a

[1:25:30] colleague of mine at Stanford. You can't

[1:25:31] get an hour with her at Stanford, but

[1:25:33] she came here and talked for three hours

[1:25:34] about AI.

[1:25:35] >> Yeah.

[1:25:36] >> Like, and I can share that with the

[1:25:37] world

[1:25:38] >> that or share what you're teaching to

[1:25:40] the world that we're not just having

[1:25:41] this conversation on a walk

[1:25:43] >> and we can share it with the world. That

[1:25:45] to me is like

[1:25:47] >> power. Now, power

[1:25:49] >> which is the ability to to be in charge

[1:25:52] >> to to be the maestro

[1:25:53] >> to which is to say I I'm I'm going to be

[1:25:56] in I'm not going to be subject to the

[1:25:57] authority of another person. Oh,

[1:25:59] >> that is tricky. Which is which it is

[1:26:02] tricky to be sure. Now, you're not a

[1:26:03] vice filled person. I mean, you're a

[1:26:05] person who's actually you you don't have

[1:26:07] big problems in these in this regard.

[1:26:09] But what Aquinas suggested is that when

[1:26:11] you've eliminated the others that what

[1:26:14] you found is something that might make

[1:26:15] you stumble and that might distract you

[1:26:18] from the things that really matter, the

[1:26:19] the the ways that you can actually have

[1:26:22] love in your life. And what the funny

[1:26:23] thing about it is that if I said, "Okay,

[1:26:25] just tell me your idol from the very

[1:26:27] beginning." you might not have

[1:26:28] eliminated it to that particular point.

[1:26:30] >> Yeah. Because I think that uh it's it's

[1:26:32] really an interesting exercise.

[1:26:33] Obviously, I'm doing this with you now,

[1:26:35] but I I hope people are doing this in

[1:26:36] parallel because that's what it's all

[1:26:37] about. It's not about me and the

[1:26:38] example.

[1:26:39] >> Yeah. No, it's we we want people to know

[1:26:41] their idol.

[1:26:42] >> Definitely is that the words carry

[1:26:44] they're loaded words. Money, power, uh

[1:26:48] honor sounds actually cool until you

[1:26:50] really dissect it and then you realize

[1:26:51] it's just as uh you know nuanced as the

[1:26:53] others. That's that's the ancient that

[1:26:55] that's how Aquinus would have understood

[1:26:57] uh holores.

[1:26:58] >> Yeah.

[1:26:58] >> Right. Which is not virtuous inherently.

[1:27:02] [laughter]

[1:27:02] >> Right. Right. So the words are are can

[1:27:04] be a little misleading. I will say where

[1:27:06] I've tended to stumble on the backdrop

[1:27:08] of all this before people, you know,

[1:27:10] it's not about avoiding the comments. Um

[1:27:12] in fact, please comment.

[1:27:13] >> Yeah, totally. And we love them all.

[1:27:14] >> And and like and suggest like and

[1:27:15] [laughter] share. Just kidding.

[1:27:16] >> Don't forget to subscribe. subscribe

[1:27:18] button is, you know, but a big part of

[1:27:20] it also is,

[1:27:22] >> you know, that of course I'm susceptible

[1:27:24] to like the lure of pleasure, the lure

[1:27:27] of I mean like I'm human, right? We're

[1:27:29] all wired for it, right? The place where

[1:27:31] I've stumbled consistently is when

[1:27:35] overresourced in a particular place. I I

[1:27:38] don't always think about what the full

[1:27:41] arc of requirement is when trying to I

[1:27:45] believe in a benevolent way share

[1:27:48] resources,

[1:27:48] >> right?

[1:27:49] >> So, it's much easier to to like connect

[1:27:52] somebody to somebody and then if it's

[1:27:54] not going well to be like, well, that's

[1:27:56] their problem now. as opposed to really

[1:27:57] continuing to to like make make sure

[1:28:01] that happens, right? So, sometimes the

[1:28:03] the big learning for me has been

[1:28:06] >> whenever over resourced in any area,

[1:28:08] whether it's money, energy, generosity,

[1:28:11] whatever, that I need to be careful

[1:28:16] because the misperception is that

[1:28:17] because there's more than enough of it

[1:28:19] for me, I can just share whatever's

[1:28:21] left,

[1:28:21] >> right? But there's a hidden cost

[1:28:24] >> and it's the cost of making sure that

[1:28:26] all of that goes smoothly.

[1:28:29] >> That's and that's a cost that's hard to

[1:28:31] quantify. And the most painful thing in

[1:28:33] my life nowadays is actually pulling

[1:28:35] back the places where I I l my team

[1:28:37] knows this. It's like if I meet someone

[1:28:39] on the street and they are like they

[1:28:40] tell me something and then they want to

[1:28:41] tell me about like they have a question

[1:28:43] because they have an uncle who has a

[1:28:44] stroke and like I know a really great

[1:28:47] person for certain kinds of stroke. I'll

[1:28:49] take their I'll give them my phone

[1:28:51] number. Yeah,

[1:28:52] >> I've given up, you know, like I'll do

[1:28:53] this whole thing, but then later it's

[1:28:55] very hard to find the time to make sure

[1:28:57] that if they're not getting feedback

[1:28:58] that I can do the the call where I

[1:29:00] connect the two.

[1:29:01] >> And so there's this the hardest part for

[1:29:03] me is I I can't do it. And I got this

[1:29:04] from my mom.

[1:29:05] >> She sees a homeless person on the

[1:29:07] street.

[1:29:08] >> And when we were kids, we discovered she

[1:29:10] was putting homeless people up in hotels

[1:29:14] like and we'd have people living in our

[1:29:16] garage and like she can't help herself.

[1:29:18] >> Now she's better about it. Um but it it

[1:29:21] comes from a good place.

[1:29:22] >> She wants to fix stuff. She wants to fix

[1:29:25] stuff. She wants

[1:29:25] >> people suffering is very very and by the

[1:29:29] way our vices are our virtues.

[1:29:32] >> When I'm weak then I'm strong said St.

[1:29:34] Paul the Apostle. But also when I'm

[1:29:36] strong then I'm weak. Our strengths and

[1:29:38] weaknesses are opposite sides of the

[1:29:39] same coin. The weakness that you have,

[1:29:41] the idol that you have is also the

[1:29:43] opposite side of the greatest virtue

[1:29:44] that you possess. So that's one of the

[1:29:46] reasons that we shouldn't beat ourselves

[1:29:47] up about this, but we need to know what

[1:29:49] it actually is because that's what will

[1:29:51] actually lead you astray a lot of the

[1:29:53] time.

[1:29:53] >> Now, it's it's completely different for

[1:29:55] me. I would kick out power first,

[1:29:57] control first. The second thing I'd get

[1:29:59] rid of is pleasure. I'm a protocols guy,

[1:30:02] too. I'm very austere, right? I'm every

[1:30:05] day in the gym and, you know, I don't I

[1:30:07] eat a very strict diet and Okay. The

[1:30:10] third thing I would get rid of is money,

[1:30:13] resources. It's not I mean and and again

[1:30:16] like let's watch the comments light up.

[1:30:17] I got it.

[1:30:18] >> But what does that leave? That leaves

[1:30:20] honor.

[1:30:21] >> And the truth is I want people to love

[1:30:24] me. I want people to love me. I want

[1:30:28] this. It's so Look, dude. I'm 62 years

[1:30:31] old and I still want that.

[1:30:33] >> It feels good. What do you It's not even

[1:30:35] feeling good. It's like

[1:30:38] >> I'm not a human being. I'm a human

[1:30:40] doing. Hm. I'm trying to earn

[1:30:42] everybody's love. It's so dumb. And I

[1:30:45] recognize it now. That's power right

[1:30:47] there. Is power because I know when I'm

[1:30:49] doing it and and and I'm held

[1:30:51] accountable for it because my wife does

[1:30:53] not have this. Absolutely have this. And

[1:30:55] she'll say, "You're doing that stupid

[1:30:56] thing again." You know, why would you

[1:30:58] marginalize the people that you actually

[1:31:00] love for the adoration of strangers for

[1:31:01] Pete's sake? Why would you go do that

[1:31:03] thing that that you know people really

[1:31:05] want you to do? You want it because you

[1:31:07] want people to appreciate you is what it

[1:31:09] comes down to. you I say you're right is

[1:31:10] the whole point and the whole point is

[1:31:12] also that this is what I do for a living

[1:31:14] this is what I study and I'm weak and

[1:31:16] and I'm frail in this particular way and

[1:31:18] when I resist that idol when I fight

[1:31:20] against that idol then I choose the

[1:31:22] better path and I choose the space of

[1:31:24] moral aspiration and that space of moral

[1:31:27] aspiration is to love and be loved

[1:31:29] that's what the space of moral

[1:31:31] aspiration that's where it actually

[1:31:32] takes me to love and be loved not by the

[1:31:34] strangers not the prestige of the crowd

[1:31:37] not the the the the the the honor that

[1:31:40] comes from rising in the hierarchy.

[1:31:42] We're a tropical kinbased species

[1:31:47] hierarchically arranged. This the animal

[1:31:49] impulse comes from rising in our band of

[1:31:51] 30 to 50 hundred gatherers, you know,

[1:31:53] 250,000 years ago. I mean, this is all

[1:31:55] biologically wired. But when I

[1:31:57] understand that, then I can actually do

[1:31:59] what the what the you know that Dante in

[1:32:02] in the inferno um he he talks it's

[1:32:05] arranged around the seven deadly sins

[1:32:07] but he also talks about the seven um the

[1:32:10] heavenly virtues you know and so so

[1:32:13] pride humility right envy admiration is

[1:32:18] what it comes you know this that the

[1:32:19] heavenly virtue of this is is the of of

[1:32:24] the four are what you truly want what

[1:32:27] you truly deeply want in your soul. To

[1:32:30] love and be loved means that you're

[1:32:31] spending your time on your faith, the

[1:32:34] love of the divine, your family, the

[1:32:37] people that are biologically or by

[1:32:40] adoption related to you, your friends,

[1:32:43] the people that you actually choose and

[1:32:45] serving the whole world through the way

[1:32:46] that you earn your daily bread, which is

[1:32:48] to earn your success through your work,

[1:32:49] faith, family, friends, and work. And

[1:32:51] then only when you know that that idol,

[1:32:54] you can pivot to the thing that that

[1:32:56] your soul actually wants, the thing that

[1:32:57] you actually hunger for. And that's

[1:32:59] where real satisfaction comes in. That's

[1:33:01] where you gain the satisfaction that

[1:33:02] you've always wanted.

[1:33:04] >> Can I ask you a question about the

[1:33:05] adoration piece and applause and that

[1:33:07] kind of thing.

[1:33:08] >> So embarrassed.

[1:33:09] >> No. Well, I'm embar you know I mean it's

[1:33:12] like that it is it it's a vulnerable

[1:33:14] place to like reveal cuz the word is is

[1:33:17] is are tough like power like you know

[1:33:19] like you know like Hubberman admits that

[1:33:20] he is driven by no it's like power I

[1:33:23] want to help people

[1:33:24] >> no you want you have you want to have

[1:33:25] control over what you can control it

[1:33:27] yeah

[1:33:27] >> yeah and um but so when let's say you

[1:33:31] you give a lecture to to a a group that

[1:33:34] um you respect them as an audience

[1:33:36] whoever happens to be there like you

[1:33:38] respect your audience which so

[1:33:39] important, you know, like you um and

[1:33:41] >> they love their

[1:33:42] >> and they Yeah. And and and you you get

[1:33:46] the feedback that you really like you

[1:33:48] knocked it out of the park. Yeah. You

[1:33:49] knocked it out of the park.

[1:33:51] >> When you go back to your room at night,

[1:33:52] are you the sort of person that thinks

[1:33:54] about um that and how great it feels or

[1:33:58] are you thinking about this one thing

[1:34:00] that you said that you wish you had done

[1:34:01] differently? Are you the like the one

[1:34:03] the one thing that I wish I hadn't said

[1:34:04] kind of person or are you the or are you

[1:34:07] like basking in it? No, I'm not basking

[1:34:09] in it. I mean, I'm actually

[1:34:10] self-critical. I'm thinking about what

[1:34:11] it could be differently because it wears

[1:34:13] off and it's eancent. It's like a summer

[1:34:15] rain.

[1:34:16] >> You know, the the adoration of strangers

[1:34:18] feels good in the moment. I mean, in

[1:34:19] neurochemically, it it wears off very

[1:34:22] quickly, of course, because what you're

[1:34:23] getting is, you know, when when you look

[1:34:25] at people who are deeply addicted to

[1:34:26] success, it looks very much in in what

[1:34:29] in under brain scans to people who are

[1:34:31] actually getting highly glycemic

[1:34:34] carbohydrate treats or even a hit of

[1:34:36] cocaine. you know, you win in some

[1:34:38] little game and and you know, and

[1:34:41] obviously we were talking about dopamine

[1:34:42] here is you actually see it's the same

[1:34:44] thing, but that doesn't last. That's not

[1:34:46] supposed to last. That's supposed to

[1:34:47] wear away. And the first thing that

[1:34:49] somebody wants who's an addict is

[1:34:51] another hit, whether it's a line of

[1:34:52] cocaine or another round of applause.

[1:34:55] >> So, by the time I'm back in the hotel,

[1:34:56] I'm think

[1:34:58] that different.

[1:35:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Actually, what it

[1:35:01] comes down to. But, by the way, we got

[1:35:03] to know what the solution is to this.

[1:35:05] And the solution to this is not to say,

[1:35:07] "Okay, I'm a horrible human being." But

[1:35:09] [snorts] it's actually to pivot to

[1:35:12] choosing the path of the man that I want

[1:35:14] to be.

[1:35:16] >> You know, I I I I don't give into the

[1:35:18] animal impulse to stay under the covers

[1:35:19] past 4:30. The man that I want to be is

[1:35:22] down in the gym by 4:45.

[1:35:24] >> 4:45 a.m. [clears throat]

[1:35:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:35:26] >> That's right.

[1:35:27] >> Yeah. I mean, the the man that I want to

[1:35:30] be um when I'm either thinking about

[1:35:33] something I did wrong and I'm beating

[1:35:35] myself up or, you know, wishing there

[1:35:37] was another round of applause is

[1:35:38] somebody who is deep in prayer.

[1:35:40] >> That's the man that I want to be

[1:35:42] >> because I do know that that my

[1:35:45] metaphysical fitness depends on this and

[1:35:47] that's a choice that I can actually

[1:35:49] make.

[1:35:50] I have a question about um who we I

[1:35:54] don't want to say idolize but among

[1:35:56] humans can you name people

[1:36:00] alive or dead that um sort of embody or

[1:36:05] collectively sort of embody who you

[1:36:06] aspire to be like or do you not put

[1:36:08] humans in that category because one

[1:36:10] thing that I realized in this discussion

[1:36:12] around power and I'm not trying to uh

[1:36:14] soften anything around that is I've

[1:36:17] always had this list of people whose

[1:36:19] like careers and art and music and stuff

[1:36:21] I really admire. And in looking over

[1:36:23] that list, I try and like sometimes see

[1:36:26] like the through lines,

[1:36:27] >> right?

[1:36:27] >> And I can tell you that almost all of

[1:36:29] them brought together unique things

[1:36:32] based on their past, their

[1:36:33] circumstances, etc. to to like change

[1:36:36] the game.

[1:36:37] >> Like to me, that's kind of the ultimate.

[1:36:39] It's like

[1:36:39] >> in our business,

[1:36:40] >> Yeah.

[1:36:41] >> people think differently. The paradigm

[1:36:42] change.

[1:36:43] >> Yeah. It's like to change the game like

[1:36:45] um and it for me this is a very

[1:36:48] important like time space dilation where

[1:36:50] I can look back on the history of

[1:36:51] science and the couple of

[1:36:52] neurobiologists who were there at the

[1:36:54] beginning like

[1:36:55] >> Ramoni Kahal you'd say he changed the

[1:36:56] game because he kind of like

[1:36:58] >> made the game he created the game

[1:37:00] basically slicing up brains and

[1:37:02] understanding function but like but a

[1:37:04] few people came along even in my career

[1:37:07] in the time of my active lab career and

[1:37:11] I was like they really changed the game

[1:37:13] and then I asked so why did how and why

[1:37:16] did they change the game and you realize

[1:37:18] that every technique is fleeting because

[1:37:20] it gets replaced almost always right and

[1:37:23] so you start to realize that oh like it

[1:37:25] was always this unique kind of like

[1:37:27] artist scientist poet intersection and I

[1:37:31] realized like oh that that's like that's

[1:37:33] the thing was people that are like

[1:37:34] outside the box because they found a

[1:37:36] unique confluence of things striving for

[1:37:38] that is way more important to me than

[1:37:40] quote unquote power Yeah.

[1:37:42] >> It's like to be able to say like I did

[1:37:44] it not my way, not their way, but I did

[1:37:46] it my way. Period.

[1:37:48] >> Like a unique expression that could only

[1:37:50] have been me

[1:37:52] >> coming out of me.

[1:37:54] >> And I don't And so I'm not in

[1:37:57] competition with with some with some

[1:37:59] structure with other people. That to me

[1:38:01] is above the four idols that you

[1:38:03] describe.

[1:38:04] >> No, I get it. I completely get because

[1:38:05] it's like

[1:38:07] >> like that's like winning.

[1:38:09] >> That's what you admire and that's what I

[1:38:10] really kind of like an ideal type.

[1:38:13] That's what it actually means to be

[1:38:16] >> successful. That's what it means to be a

[1:38:18] success and that's what excellence means

[1:38:20] to you. That's that's the

[1:38:21] personification of excellence is

[1:38:22] actually that kind of intellectual

[1:38:24] entrepreneurship.

[1:38:25] >> Yeah. It's almost like it it moves from

[1:38:26] the because you said like to lead. I

[1:38:28] actually am not concerned with leading.

[1:38:30] I also didn't want to be a chairman,

[1:38:31] right? Like I don't want to run

[1:38:33] businesses, my podcast. I let someone

[1:38:34] else do that. He's way better at it than

[1:38:36] I could ever be. It's what I'm

[1:38:38] interested in is being outside of that

[1:38:41] but still ethically completely free.

[1:38:45] >> Yeah.

[1:38:46] >> Like I can't lead because I can't show

[1:38:48] anyone how to

[1:38:49] >> be me cuz they're them.

[1:38:51] >> I can show them how to I can get some

[1:38:53] ideas about how they can be them, but

[1:38:54] that's like an internal process for

[1:38:56] them. So that to me is like the ultimate

[1:38:58] when I think about Ramoni Kahal is a

[1:39:00] good example who by the way the greatest

[1:39:02] neurobiologist of all time ever by by

[1:39:06] huge huge margin

[1:39:08] >> also is like really into weightlifting

[1:39:10] he was an artist like he was an

[1:39:11] incredible like he drew images of the

[1:39:13] brain and inferred from that function

[1:39:14] from dead tissue amazing amazing human

[1:39:17] being like he's an end of one

[1:39:20] >> but it was the confluence of his

[1:39:21] interest in physical exercise and neuro

[1:39:23] anatomy and art that made him. Ramon

[1:39:27] Kahal, no one else can do that,

[1:39:29] >> right? Like, so I don't want to be like

[1:39:31] him.

[1:39:31] >> No, I got it.

[1:39:32] >> Because he did it the best. Like, why

[1:39:34] would you want to be like him ringing?

[1:39:36] >> You want to be excellent like him, but

[1:39:37] as Andrew Huberman.

[1:39:39] >> Exactly. To me, the unique expression

[1:39:40] and like, you know, we I think we'll

[1:39:42] eventually get to notions of like not

[1:39:44] notions. We'll talk a little bit about

[1:39:45] God and faith because that's actually

[1:39:46] where you and I connected in person for

[1:39:48] the first time was talking at Stanford

[1:39:50] about science. Very openly. But that to

[1:39:54] me feels I could be misinterpreting the

[1:39:56] message but I feel like that's what God

[1:39:59] wants for all of us whether it's and in

[1:40:01] the different domains of of life.

[1:40:03] >> Yeah.

[1:40:04] >> And of course adhering to ethics like

[1:40:05] there are rules there are structures we

[1:40:07] have to obey within that but our unique

[1:40:09] expression.

[1:40:11] >> I feel like that's why we're here.

[1:40:14] That's I I tell myself this.

[1:40:15] >> No like I I completely agree with you

[1:40:17] and you know so people often ask so who

[1:40:19] who's your hero? I I don't know. I don't

[1:40:21] know. my dad, you know. Um,

[1:40:24] >> you're like Jesus. You say Jesus.

[1:40:25] >> Jesus. Yeah, I know. It's like like

[1:40:28] I mean it's like who's hero, but it's

[1:40:30] like no, I mean Jesus is the master, but

[1:40:33] the hero it's like the hero. No, it's

[1:40:35] not like some sort of hero's journey,

[1:40:37] some yungian, you know, archetype that

[1:40:40] we're talking about here. I I struggle

[1:40:42] with that as well. But I do see people

[1:40:44] that I I deeply admire precisely for

[1:40:47] this for this reason. So somebody I

[1:40:49] really admire the guy in my field the

[1:40:51] social science scientist par excalance

[1:40:54] is James Q Wilson [snorts] you know

[1:40:56] James Q Wilson James James Q Wilson who

[1:40:59] won the Congressional Medal of Honor you

[1:41:00] know which is pretty hard to do as a

[1:41:01] social scientist for you know for

[1:41:03] [snorts] no he died in 2012

[1:41:06] >> and and he was the greatest political

[1:41:08] scientist of the 20th century and and

[1:41:10] somebody I knew he sat sat in on my

[1:41:12] dissertation defense which went very

[1:41:14] poorly. I mean, it was rough, man. I had

[1:41:17] two Nobel Prize winners in economics and

[1:41:19] James Q. Wilson. I was super nervous and

[1:41:21] it was it was it was it was not a great

[1:41:24] dissertation. It got signatures.

[1:41:26] [laughter]

[1:41:26] That's the scoreboard effect on that.

[1:41:28] That's all I can say. It passed.

[1:41:29] >> But he said to me after that, you know,

[1:41:31] he had written

[1:41:33] monumental books. He had done works. He

[1:41:35] had written a great book called the

[1:41:36] moral sense. That was the first time

[1:41:38] that a social scientist had actually

[1:41:40] used the tools of of empirical social

[1:41:43] science survey based data to understand

[1:41:45] the the moral sensibilities, the complex

[1:41:47] moral sensibilities that they actually

[1:41:49] possessed and just quantifying it. I

[1:41:51] read that I said I just want to do that.

[1:41:52] I want to do that. I don't want to be

[1:41:54] James Q Wilson though. I want to be

[1:41:55] Arthur Brooks, you know, and doing it my

[1:41:57] own in my own way. And he said, you

[1:41:59] know, at my dissertation defense, he

[1:42:00] said, you know, nice try. You're going

[1:42:03] to be fine. When you need something,

[1:42:04] give me a call. And so some years later,

[1:42:07] I was an assistant professor at Syracuse

[1:42:10] at the time. And I was I wrote my first

[1:42:12] commercial book, my first trade book,

[1:42:14] and it was about charitable giving. And

[1:42:16] it was it was it actually changed my

[1:42:18] life because the president read it for

[1:42:21] some odd reason and talked about it. And

[1:42:22] then suddenly I was my career was

[1:42:24] changed forever as a result of that, for

[1:42:26] for better and for worse. But when I was

[1:42:28] working on it, I wrote to James Q.

[1:42:30] Wilson and I said, "Would you read this

[1:42:31] manuscript?" And he said, "Sure." I sent

[1:42:34] it to him. and he said, "You know, I was

[1:42:35] going to write a book on this, but

[1:42:36] you've written I don't have to." Um,

[1:42:38] I'll write the forward.

[1:42:39] >> Awesome. Unbelievable. Yeah.

[1:42:41] >> Unbelievable. Later, he recruited me to

[1:42:44] be the president of the American

[1:42:45] Enterprise Institute. Uh, because he was

[1:42:46] on the board of that. And he was on the

[1:42:49] board until he passed away and then I

[1:42:51] spoke at his funeral. I had the honor of

[1:42:53] speaking at his funeral at the at the

[1:42:54] memorial chapel at Harvard where his

[1:42:56] funeral was held. And it was just this

[1:42:59] guy. He was a a one of a kind. And I

[1:43:04] want to be a social scientist too, but

[1:43:06] not just like him. Not even studying the

[1:43:07] same things that he does, but to have

[1:43:09] this this intense curiosity

[1:43:12] and and using the tools of science

[1:43:15] completely in the public interest.

[1:43:17] That's what I want to do. And so that's

[1:43:18] what inspires me. So my hero I I guess,

[1:43:21] but it's the admiration that I have

[1:43:23] because he was fully alive. He was fully

[1:43:26] alive in the way that I think that it

[1:43:28] was his destiny to be in all of us. And

[1:43:29] everybody watching us, like everybody

[1:43:31] watching us and listening to us is got

[1:43:33] their thing. That's what our destiny is

[1:43:35] to actually find that thing and be truly

[1:43:37] excellent and use it to serve. Be as

[1:43:39] excellent as you can possibly be in in

[1:43:41] being a, you know, drywall hanger and,

[1:43:43] you know, and and being a cook at a

[1:43:44] restaurant, in being a college

[1:43:46] professor, god forbid, being a

[1:43:47] politician, in the public interest, in

[1:43:50] the private interest in in in showing

[1:43:52] people that this is an expression of

[1:43:54] your love. You see, in this way, it's

[1:43:56] godly in this way. You know, in the book

[1:43:59] of Genesis, it's, you know, God created

[1:44:01] heaven and earth. That was his gig. That

[1:44:02] was his job. And it was an expression of

[1:44:05] his love. This is what you and I can do.

[1:44:08] This is what you do. This is, by the

[1:44:09] way,

[1:44:11] you're popular because you're good at

[1:44:14] your job, for sure. But because you want

[1:44:17] the best for everybody, because this

[1:44:19] podcast is an expression of Andrew

[1:44:21] Huberman's love. That's why it's

[1:44:23] successful. And everybody can be su

[1:44:26] successful in their way can be, you

[1:44:29] know, have their own humor and podcast,

[1:44:31] not in podcasting necessarily, by

[1:44:33] actually having it be an expression of

[1:44:34] your love, love for humanity through the

[1:44:36] way that you're earning your daily

[1:44:37] bread. That's the quintessential

[1:44:39] expression of excellence in my view.

[1:44:41] That accord with yours?

[1:44:42] >> Very much so. And I, you know, it occurs

[1:44:44] to me like, you know, um, and maybe I'm

[1:44:48] a little bit bothered by this word

[1:44:49] powering

[1:44:52] and I'm striving for it to not

[1:44:53] misconrue, but but if No, no, no, no. I

[1:44:55] I just I mean, but but I'm I'm embracing

[1:44:57] it today. But what to me the ultimate

[1:45:01] win I realized um a few moments ago is

[1:45:05] like what I'm really trying to do in

[1:45:07] this podcast thing is I love learning

[1:45:11] >> and when I find something that I think

[1:45:12] can be of use to people.

[1:45:14] >> Yeah.

[1:45:14] >> Uh I teach it because what's most

[1:45:16] satisfying to me is if people change

[1:45:19] their behavior and it leads them to a

[1:45:21] better place mentally, physically or

[1:45:23] both. Right. And then they also

[1:45:26] understand why it did that,

[1:45:28] >> right?

[1:45:28] >> And then they pass it along.

[1:45:30] >> Like and and there's no need for

[1:45:33] attribution in that,

[1:45:34] >> right? There's no need for attribution.

[1:45:36] And I hope that like I have a few

[1:45:37] friends who are actors, a few friends

[1:45:39] who are musicians, and I have to imagine

[1:45:40] that they love acting and playing music,

[1:45:42] and those sorts of people provide

[1:45:44] incredible enrichment to my life. I love

[1:45:46] music. I love I love film and as a

[1:45:48] consumer. But I've heard them say things

[1:45:50] like, "Yeah, you know, like you can

[1:45:52] transport somebody, you can inspire

[1:45:54] them." And I think ultimately that's

[1:45:55] what it's about is like I think that we

[1:45:57] do at our best. I think we all want to

[1:46:00] find the thing that we love to do, put

[1:46:03] it out there, and I think we have this

[1:46:05] sense that it that it could possibly

[1:46:07] ripple through time without attribution.

[1:46:10] >> To me, that's like the ultimate power,

[1:46:13] right?

[1:46:14] >> Totally. I want to create happiness

[1:46:15] teachers. I I I want people to go be

[1:46:18] teachers because that's leverage. I want

[1:46:20] a better world. I want to lift people up

[1:46:22] with these ideas. I can't do it by

[1:46:24] myself. Well, the only reason we have

[1:46:25] like the microphones and the cameras are

[1:46:27] here, right, is to ripple it out

[1:46:29] further. These are lit, you know, they

[1:46:30] literally amplify things, right? So, but

[1:46:32] yeah, the the best way to amplifies

[1:46:35] amplify through space is the internet.

[1:46:37] The best way to amplify through time

[1:46:39] might be the internet, but the way to

[1:46:42] really reinforce that whole thing is to

[1:46:44] teach people things I believe in a way

[1:46:46] that they understand the process

[1:46:48] underneath so that a little bit of it

[1:46:51] >> so that they can and they pass both

[1:46:53] things along. This is why I think like

[1:46:55] cuz nowadays like I could go on any

[1:46:58] website and just go what are the 10 top

[1:47:00] things that people on their deathbed say

[1:47:02] are keys to happiness and I can get a

[1:47:04] list. Yeah. But people choose to listen

[1:47:06] to the mechanics of it because there's

[1:47:09] something about the human brain. I'm

[1:47:11] certain that when we understand a bit

[1:47:13] about the mechanics that gives rise to

[1:47:14] that thing,

[1:47:15] >> that's our buy in. That's the per that's

[1:47:18] the cost of admission and then it

[1:47:19] becomes worth something. That's the

[1:47:20] effort that comes before the

[1:47:22] >> Yeah. Well, you know what they say in

[1:47:23] medical schools? They say at Stanford

[1:47:24] Medical School to become a surgeon, you

[1:47:26] need to watch one, do one, teach one.

[1:47:28] >> Watch one, do one, teach one. And and

[1:47:29] you know the truth is that the that the

[1:47:31] the process of learning and you know

[1:47:32] there's a ton of research on how people

[1:47:34] learn and the way that people learn best

[1:47:37] is that they have to learn how something

[1:47:38] works then they have to actually

[1:47:40] practice it then they actually have to

[1:47:42] teach it. So my dad was a math professor

[1:47:44] he was a brilliant biostatistician. I

[1:47:46] one time watched him as a math professor

[1:47:48] giving an advanced calculus lecture and

[1:47:50] 90 minutes no notes. It was like

[1:47:52] watching Yasha hyitz and I was old

[1:47:55] enough that I had admiration for him. I

[1:47:57] was in my 20s before he died. He died

[1:47:58] young, but I was still in my 20s and he

[1:48:00] was still going. And and I said, "Dad,"

[1:48:02] I was like, "That was a virtuosa

[1:48:03] performance. How'd you do

[1:48:05] [clears throat] it?" He said, "I've done

[1:48:06] it hundreds of times." And and he said,

[1:48:08] "The process is simple. You learn

[1:48:10] actually what's happening. You look at

[1:48:12] the proof. You admire the science and

[1:48:15] then you actually do a ton of problems

[1:48:17] and then finally you explain it over and

[1:48:19] over and over and over again." And the

[1:48:20] same thing is true for golf. And the

[1:48:21] same thing is true for speaking Spanish.

[1:48:23] And the same thing is true for for

[1:48:25] understanding how to live a better life.

[1:48:26] You need to know the science. The reason

[1:48:28] that I'm so fascinated with the science

[1:48:29] and I want to talk about it in my

[1:48:31] podcast every week is like it's so cool

[1:48:34] when you understand the science then

[1:48:36] you're more likely to change your habits

[1:48:37] and then you're more likely to spread it

[1:48:39] and share it with other people in which

[1:48:41] case you will be a virtuoso in it and

[1:48:43] you'll actually keep the cycle unbroken.

[1:48:46] >> That's magic.

[1:48:47] >> That's like it's [clears throat] a it's

[1:48:48] a complete miracle that that's actually

[1:48:50] how we do it. and and we have this

[1:48:52] moment, this miraculous moment where you

[1:48:56] and I can actually talk about serious

[1:48:57] science. We're not I mean this is not a

[1:48:59] doctoral seminar at Stanford or Harvard

[1:49:01] to be sure, but we're we're talking

[1:49:04] about the real thing and people will

[1:49:05] watch this like yeah that's like you

[1:49:06] know they're they're learning some

[1:49:07] things and they're going to go to

[1:49:08] someone going to go to PubMed and we're

[1:49:09] going to have show notes and and the

[1:49:11] whole thing and and then we talk about

[1:49:13] here's how you use it. Okay. So, don't

[1:49:15] when you go to the beach, make sure that

[1:49:16] you're going to a beach with a friend.

[1:49:18] And here's your pro your book is called

[1:49:19] Protocols for a reason with several

[1:49:21] hundred pages of footnotes. Right now,

[1:49:24] go share it. You know how many times

[1:49:25] people have told me, "Hey, you know what

[1:49:26] about coffee? You should wait for 90

[1:49:28] minutes because you know the the

[1:49:30] caffeine molecule the caffeine molecule

[1:49:33] blocks the A2A adenosine uh receptors

[1:49:36] and and you won't get the crash at 2 in

[1:49:37] the afternoon." I'm like, "Yeah, I know

[1:49:39] where you got that. I know where you got

[1:49:41] that. You got that from Andrew." and and

[1:49:44] without attribution because they don't

[1:49:45] know they got it from you. But the whole

[1:49:46] point is the world's better. The world

[1:49:49] is better. That's how we can bless the

[1:49:51] world with what we actually do. And

[1:49:53] that's so great. I'd like to take a

[1:49:56] quick break and acknowledge one of our

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[1:51:16] >> So, we got through enjoyment,

[1:51:17] satisfaction, and meaning.

[1:51:19] >> We got through enjoyment, satisfaction,

[1:51:21] not meaning.

[1:51:21] >> Well, we have not gotten all the way

[1:51:22] through, but we um So, tell us more

[1:51:25] about meaning. So, we got the idols.

[1:51:27] Yeah.

[1:51:27] >> So, those are the things to be aware of

[1:51:28] and

[1:51:29] >> that will block your satisfaction that

[1:51:31] they promise satisfaction and they don't

[1:51:32] deliver.

[1:51:33] >> They won't deliver the satisfaction that

[1:51:35] you seek, but but your brain tells you

[1:51:37] that they will. That will put you on

[1:51:39] what we in in my community call the

[1:51:41] hedonic treadmill.

[1:51:42] >> Hideonic simply means feelings or or or

[1:51:45] in your vernacular, you know, is

[1:51:47] activity. The lyic system

[1:51:49] >> and and that the treadmill means that

[1:51:51] the the lyic system resets because

[1:51:53] emotions are not there to give you a

[1:51:54] nice day. They give you, you know, set

[1:51:56] of signals about threats and

[1:51:57] opportunities so you can react and they

[1:51:59] reset immediately.

[1:52:00] >> You always think they're going to last

[1:52:01] forever. So, you have an incentive to

[1:52:03] either avoid or approach things.

[1:52:05] >> This is the uh you don't see it much

[1:52:08] anymore, but there used to be a a bumper

[1:52:11] sticker out there that said that the the

[1:52:13] person who dies with the most toys wins.

[1:52:15] >> Yeah. Right.

[1:52:16] >> It's that one. Uh which reminds me about

[1:52:18] quantification. Can I share this with

[1:52:19] you? It's not it's not it's not my

[1:52:21] original idea, but Anolky, Dr. Dr. Anna

[1:52:23] Olympia,

[1:52:24] >> she's been on I've had her on my podcast

[1:52:25] and and yeah, she's fantastic.

[1:52:27] >> Yeah, she's amazing. She she told me

[1:52:28] that there's something you um

[1:52:30] interesting uh one particularly

[1:52:33] interesting lens on any behavior is

[1:52:36] whether the person tends to quantify

[1:52:39] that behavior very carefully and kind of

[1:52:41] covet the thing. She said addicts will

[1:52:44] like constantly check back and see how

[1:52:46] many like pills they have, how many bags

[1:52:48] they have, how many um uh people who are

[1:52:51] obsessed, perhaps even addicted to

[1:52:53] making money will constantly check every

[1:52:56] single day.

[1:52:57] >> And it's and it's cloaked as feeling as

[1:52:59] the need to feel safe, but it has

[1:53:01] nothing to do with that. It's the libic

[1:53:03] system is very very good

[1:53:05] >> at charting profits and losses

[1:53:08] >> in whatever context that like making

[1:53:10] lists, quantification. So, we have to be

[1:53:12] very This is not a a call to not track

[1:53:15] your sleep or something or your HRV.

[1:53:17] >> But, by the way,

[1:53:18] >> Mhm.

[1:53:19] >> it can be a problem. It can it can be a

[1:53:21] I check it fitness trackers.

[1:53:23] >> I check my sleep once a week against a

[1:53:24] subjective quick line

[1:53:26] >> or your HRV or

[1:53:28] >> Yeah.

[1:53:28] >> Yeah. So anyway, I I it's something that

[1:53:30] I we don't hear often enough even in the

[1:53:33] neurobiology uh crowd that the libic

[1:53:36] system loves to quantify and if we get

[1:53:39] to the extreme of quantification in a

[1:53:41] given area we um of life of behavior of

[1:53:45] obsession

[1:53:47] it very likely not always but very

[1:53:50] likely reflects that that healthy

[1:53:52] behavior has become either an obsession

[1:53:53] or or full-blown addiction which I find

[1:53:55] really interesting.

[1:53:56] >> So interesting. So what are we what are

[1:53:58] we actually what is the lyic system

[1:53:59] actually trying to do with that kind of

[1:54:00] control that that's expressed through

[1:54:02] quantification

[1:54:03] >> never experience the drop. It's like a

[1:54:05] way it's not getting more of but it's

[1:54:08] it's in the getting more of it's it's

[1:54:10] it's it's right you're you're working

[1:54:12] against losses by telling yourself you

[1:54:14] have this

[1:54:14] >> it's based on loss aversion.

[1:54:16] >> It's loss aversion. Thank you. Yes. It's

[1:54:17] based on loss aversion. And I said it's

[1:54:20] funny. She said I said what do you mean?

[1:54:21] She said, "Oh yeah, like people who are

[1:54:22] are like addicted to like uh certain

[1:54:24] kinds of barbituates or painkillers or

[1:54:26] whatever will like line them up and like

[1:54:28] look at them and count them." There's a

[1:54:30] very pathologic uh instance of this

[1:54:32] which is very tragic too uh because they

[1:54:34] often die sadly. But uh one of the

[1:54:37] hallmark traits of like true anorexia is

[1:54:39] that the these reward circuits become

[1:54:42] such that the aversion of food becomes

[1:54:43] rewarding.

[1:54:44] >> Uhhuh.

[1:54:45] >> Which is

[1:54:46] >> you know deadly in its ultimate form.

[1:54:48] >> And

[1:54:50] people with true anorexia can look at an

[1:54:53] article of food and they have a

[1:54:55] calculator that can tell you within a

[1:54:57] very small margin how many calories, how

[1:54:59] much fat, how much protein. They they

[1:55:02] know they can they're like visual

[1:55:04] computers when it comes to food, right?

[1:55:05] And food aversion avoiding that stuff

[1:55:08] becomes their it's like a the addiction

[1:55:11] the the pleasure pathways get all

[1:55:12] inverted and they off it's the most

[1:55:14] deadly of the psychiatric disorders.

[1:55:15] That's an extreme pathological case. But

[1:55:17] she said heroin addicts who you would

[1:55:20] think can't get their life together can

[1:55:22] tell you exactly how much heroin they

[1:55:24] have and how much they they think

[1:55:26] they're going to get how much things

[1:55:27] they're often very good at math

[1:55:29] >> you know they understand you know and so

[1:55:31] quantification is kind of a hallmark

[1:55:33] feature of the of these rewards these

[1:55:36] reinforcement circuitries I thought

[1:55:37] perhaps that's an interesting point that

[1:55:39] I don't think we discuss enough so when

[1:55:41] I think about whether something is a an

[1:55:43] addiction a compulsion unhealthy or

[1:55:46] healthy the pursuit like how tightly am

[1:55:49] I quantifying every little bit of it and

[1:55:51] thinking about what I've done like you

[1:55:53] know

[1:55:53] >> yeah how many articles are on my VA you

[1:55:55] know whatever you know because we

[1:55:56] quantify your success and the more that

[1:55:58] we look at the you know you're not

[1:55:59] trying to pat yourself on the back

[1:56:00] you're trying to make sure that you're

[1:56:01] not falling behind

[1:56:02] >> I remember followers on you know I do

[1:56:05] think the social media platforms have

[1:56:07] have

[1:56:08] >> intentionally brought this in

[1:56:10] >> it's not like the number of likes can be

[1:56:12] reinforcing some but the number of

[1:56:14] followers people are monitoring their

[1:56:16] increases and decreases and they they

[1:56:18] kind of covet them.

[1:56:19] >> Yes, absolutely. And and the rate of

[1:56:21] change of your followers, for example,

[1:56:22] >> and the media will say like so and so

[1:56:24] lost x number of followers or whatever.

[1:56:26] Like it's like a thing. So I think

[1:56:27] there's something there around

[1:56:28] quantification.

[1:56:29] >> Wait till your book comes out. Wait till

[1:56:30] you experience the New York Times

[1:56:31] bestseller list for the first time.

[1:56:33] >> Oh, it's incredible. It's incredible.

[1:56:35] You know Ryan Holidayiday, right? You

[1:56:36] ever had him on your show?

[1:56:37] >> I have not had him on the show, but I'm

[1:56:39] great. and and you know he he one time

[1:56:41] he said to me it's like I was sure that

[1:56:43] I was finally going to feel like

[1:56:45] completely alive if I if I someday he

[1:56:47] said I'm going to I'm going to visualize

[1:56:48] it I'm going to have a number one New

[1:56:50] York Times bestseller and he said and

[1:56:52] finally it happened and one week later I

[1:56:54] got knocked off the list by Trump's kid

[1:56:57] [laughter]

[1:57:00] >> Baron

[1:57:01] >> no I don't know one of his sons but you

[1:57:04] know it's like I don't know and and and

[1:57:06] his whole point is that it's so absurd

[1:57:08] because it's completely arbit arbitary,

[1:57:10] right?

[1:57:10] >> The metric is arbitrary,

[1:57:12] >> but what you're trying to do is you're

[1:57:13] trying to quantify your sense of self.

[1:57:16] >> Am I enough yet? Am I good enough yet?

[1:57:18] Am I enough yet? And so on the one hand,

[1:57:20] you're actually talking about the

[1:57:21] addiction. But one of the things that I

[1:57:22] see again and again and again and again

[1:57:24] is that people are trying to prove to

[1:57:25] themselves that they actually are enough

[1:57:28] and and they don't feel like they are.

[1:57:30] And the way that they earn it is

[1:57:31] actually by looking at the scoreboard.

[1:57:32] This is what a lot of wealthy people do.

[1:57:34] It's what a lot of academics do. It's

[1:57:36] like how many what's this? What's his h

[1:57:37] index? You know, like how high is the H

[1:57:40] index? And oh yeah, so and so is such a

[1:57:42] big shot. H index is like 36. Joke and

[1:57:46] nobody even knows what that means,

[1:57:48] >> right? 1% of the people watching us, but

[1:57:50] you and I know what that means.

[1:57:52] >> Yeah. Because it's about impact, right?

[1:57:55] Ultimately, people or they tell

[1:57:56] themselves it's that. But putting a a

[1:57:57] numerical score on something, I mean,

[1:57:59] the brain has circuits that are pretty

[1:58:02] much hardwired for counting.

[1:58:03] >> Yeah. I mean, my dog isn't as smart as

[1:58:05] my assistant's dog. He has a a hurting

[1:58:08] dog. They can count. They know how many

[1:58:10] people in he has he has a little major

[1:58:13] uh uh

[1:58:14] >> they look at you like it's like you look

[1:58:15] at like, "Stop judging."

[1:58:16] >> His dog is tracking how many in the

[1:58:19] group are here and how many are missing.

[1:58:22] That's what makes them really good at

[1:58:23] their job. And that's where they get

[1:58:24] rewarded by making sure they're all in

[1:58:25] the

[1:58:26] >> And here's the interesting part about

[1:58:27] this, Andrew. that function, that

[1:58:29] quantification function, that that the

[1:58:32] essentializing function of how much,

[1:58:34] that's what we're really good at using

[1:58:36] the left hemisphere of our brains.

[1:58:38] That's that whole theory of hemispheric

[1:58:39] lateralization that McGillchrist brought

[1:58:41] back. When I was a kid, there's right

[1:58:42] brain, left brain people, right people

[1:58:44] are artsy and left brain people are

[1:58:45] analytical. That's not right. But the

[1:58:48] how to and what side requires hardcore

[1:58:50] quantification, and that's a

[1:58:52] fundamentally a leftbrain function. The

[1:58:54] right side, that's complicated. Those

[1:58:56] are complicated problems, solvable but

[1:58:58] complicated problems if you've got the

[1:58:59] data. The right side of the brain deals

[1:59:02] fundamentally more with complex

[1:59:04] questions which don't have quantifiable

[1:59:06] answers. All they have is understanding.

[1:59:09] All they have is intuition. That's the

[1:59:11] why side of your brain, not the how to

[1:59:12] and what side. And that's where meaning

[1:59:15] resides, which is the last macronutrient

[1:59:17] of this. the right side of our brain,

[1:59:19] the the the the the love side, the

[1:59:21] meaning side, the God side, the the

[1:59:24] complex side, all the problems that are

[1:59:26] most important to you, but you'll never

[1:59:28] solve. I mean, my car is left

[1:59:30] hemisphere. My marriage is right

[1:59:32] hemisphere. I will never solve my

[1:59:34] marriage. Never. I mean, before we

[1:59:36] stepped in here, my wife texted me. Good

[1:59:38] luck. I love you. She does. I'm going to

[1:59:41] call her later. She might be pissed off

[1:59:42] at me. I don't know.

[1:59:46] I don't know. I've been married 35

[1:59:47] years, Andrew. I don't know.

[1:59:49] >> I mean, she's Spanish, so it's really

[1:59:51] complex, but you get my point, right? I

[1:59:54] do.

[1:59:54] >> And and [laughter] and but but this is

[1:59:56] the thing, and this is the this is the

[1:59:58] problem that we face. You need an

[2:00:01] integrated brain. You get two

[2:00:02] hemispheres for a reason. And a corpus

[2:00:04] colossum to to connect between the two

[2:00:06] hemispheres. You get that because you

[2:00:07] got the the I'm going to go to work. I'm

[2:00:09] going to earn money. How to and what?

[2:00:11] Why? Because I love my family. Because I

[2:00:14] want to create value. because I want to

[2:00:16] do something important in the world.

[2:00:17] Right hemisphere, left hemisphere, right

[2:00:19] hemisphere. And when that's cut off and

[2:00:21] when you're stuck in the left

[2:00:22] hemisphere, for example, looking at your

[2:00:25] phone 205 times a day and taking, you

[2:00:27] know, an endless algorithm of useless

[2:00:29] information is fed to you, then meaning

[2:00:33] will be absent because you can only

[2:00:35] assess it on the complex side. And

[2:00:37] that's the biggest problem we face. You

[2:00:39] want to know the biggest crisis we face

[2:00:40] in happiness? It's meaning. And that's

[2:00:42] why [snorts]

[2:00:43] >> so how can somebody take steps to enrich

[2:00:49] the um the amount and the type of the

[2:00:52] array of meaning in in their life. You

[2:00:55] and I have done both a lot of work um in

[2:00:58] the world of addiction personally and

[2:01:01] professionally. And addiction is

[2:01:03] unbelievably interesting. It's endlessly

[2:01:05] fascinating how the human brain is is is

[2:01:08] captured. And and one of the things that

[2:01:10] you find is when people finally are not

[2:01:12] in the grip of addiction, there's three

[2:01:14] things that have to happen. Number one

[2:01:16] is they get pissed. That's what all

[2:01:18] addicts do. They they they get pissed

[2:01:20] and they rebel and they're like, "No, no

[2:01:22] more." You ever seen, you know, and

[2:01:24] you've seen people in 12step programs

[2:01:26] and they're like they might laugh about

[2:01:29] the crazy things that happened to them,

[2:01:30] but they finally like no more. I'm not

[2:01:33] going to put up with this anymore. You

[2:01:34] got to get pissed and rebel. The second

[2:01:36] thing that they do is they actually they

[2:01:39] understand something about the mechanism

[2:01:42] of becoming deaddicted and it's

[2:01:43] different in different ways. You're

[2:01:44] addicted to gambling, you're addicted to

[2:01:45] pornography, if you're addicted to

[2:01:46] alcohol, addicted to drugs, there's

[2:01:48] different mechanisms for becoming

[2:01:50] deaddicted. And of course, that's that's

[2:01:52] very complicated and very very hard and

[2:01:54] it requires science and you know and and

[2:01:56] and clinical practice etc etc. But the

[2:01:59] last part is actually the most difficult

[2:02:01] which is living in a new way living with

[2:02:03] you. You know, it's like it's one of the

[2:02:06] things that alcoholics always do. They

[2:02:08] always do this is they move. They always

[2:02:11] move. And they're like, "Dude, if I

[2:02:13] move, I'm it's like all these losers

[2:02:15] that are around me and I'm not going to

[2:02:16] see any of those people and I'm not

[2:02:18] going to be living upstairs from a

[2:02:20] liquor store and for God's sake, moving

[2:02:22] is going to do the trick. I'm going to

[2:02:23] change my circumstances." And of course,

[2:02:25] it never works because the first thing

[2:02:26] that jumps out of your suitcase is you

[2:02:30] with your alcoholic brain. That's the

[2:02:32] problem. And so you have to learn to

[2:02:34] live with you is the hard thing that

[2:02:36] actually comes from this. We [snorts]

[2:02:38] are deeply deeply deeply addicted. We're

[2:02:41] deeply technologically addicted. We're

[2:02:43] hooked into this thing. We all know

[2:02:44] this. You've talked about it at Infin

[2:02:46] Item. So have I. John Height, who's been

[2:02:48] on your show, has talked about the the

[2:02:49] affliction that we actually have. That's

[2:02:52] what we have to do. My work is

[2:02:54] fundamentally about how to rage against

[2:02:56] the machine to get pissed off enough.

[2:02:58] And even more than that, it's

[2:03:00] fundamentally about how to live with

[2:03:01] you, how to live differently. Cuz when

[2:03:03] you live with you, then you're in the

[2:03:06] right hemisphere of your brain. And you

[2:03:08] have to have right hemispheric

[2:03:09] experiences. Which, by the way, my

[2:03:10] great-grandfather, Leroy Brooks, he was

[2:03:13] in the right hemisphere all day long. He

[2:03:15] spent all day looking at a mule's butt.

[2:03:18] And he never came home and said to my

[2:03:20] great-grandmother, "Honey, I had a panic

[2:03:21] attack behind a mule today." No. And he

[2:03:25] also had never said, you know, my life

[2:03:26] is so boring.

[2:03:28] And and part of the reason was because

[2:03:30] his brain wasn't broken. His brain was

[2:03:32] working the way it was actually supposed

[2:03:33] to. But that's not ordinary today. And

[2:03:36] so what we need to do number one is we

[2:03:38] need to break the cycle. And then we

[2:03:40] need to live in an old-fashioned way.

[2:03:42] That's what it comes down to. That's how

[2:03:44] we find the meaning in our lives. And

[2:03:46] and breaking the cycle, by the way, I

[2:03:48] mean, we all know the research. You've

[2:03:49] had it on your show. I've taken huge

[2:03:51] amounts of knowledge from you

[2:03:53] >> on this. You can break the cycle of of

[2:03:56] technological addiction in your life

[2:03:57] simply by doing first hour of the day,

[2:03:59] last hour of the day, and meal times

[2:04:01] simply doing that. There's tons of

[2:04:02] research that shows that the

[2:04:04] neurokcognitive programming that happens

[2:04:05] in your first hour awake, the

[2:04:07] relationship programming and the sleep

[2:04:09] architecture that you wire in the last

[2:04:10] hour of your day and then and then and

[2:04:13] then the the the neuropeptides that

[2:04:15] you'll actually elicit by eating with

[2:04:16] other people without devices. Your bra

[2:04:18] your your relationship to technology

[2:04:19] will change, but you got to break the

[2:04:21] cycle. And there's tons of resources out

[2:04:23] there. How [snorts] do you live in a

[2:04:25] different way? Well, how do people

[2:04:28] illuminate the right hemisphere of their

[2:04:29] brains? They they they ask ungooable

[2:04:32] questions,

[2:04:34] >> right? Like why am I alive for? What

[2:04:36] would I give my life? You know, the deep

[2:04:38] philosophical questions. And that's what

[2:04:40] philosophy and spirituality and religion

[2:04:43] bring to you is the deep questions that

[2:04:45] are fundamentally ungooable. And that's

[2:04:47] one of the reasons that the hemispheric

[2:04:49] lateralization literature shows that

[2:04:50] when you're when you're in these spaces

[2:04:53] that your right hemisphere is

[2:04:54] fundamentally illuminated. You can train

[2:04:57] a gorilla to answer all kinds of

[2:04:59] questions but not ask interesting

[2:05:01] fundamental questions. That's humanity.

[2:05:03] That's godlike is to ask questions. It's

[2:05:06] to fall in love as a right hemispheric

[2:05:09] experience. It's deep deep mystery. It's

[2:05:12] like I that's the reason it's so scary.

[2:05:15] I don't know. I can't solve this

[2:05:17] problem. Somebody answer this question

[2:05:19] for me. No, man. You got to live it. You

[2:05:21] got to live it for the end of your days.

[2:05:23] That's why finding your calling. Why you

[2:05:26] and I were we have so much meaning

[2:05:28] through our work because we're living

[2:05:29] our calling. This is what we're meant to

[2:05:31] do. That's why a calling is what you're

[2:05:33] meant to do. It has the word meaning in

[2:05:34] it. That's why worshiping God, living in

[2:05:37] the the luminescent divine. That's why

[2:05:41] trying to become a syasi as the Indians

[2:05:44] would say is so critically important.

[2:05:46] That's why beauty, moral beauty,

[2:05:47] artistic beauty, natural beauty, these

[2:05:49] are right hemispheric experiences. And

[2:05:52] that's why suffering is so important

[2:05:54] because suffering helps you understand

[2:05:56] the meaning of your life per se.

[2:05:58] Suffering is where everybody's like when

[2:06:00] did you know who you really really were?

[2:06:01] How did you know what you were made of?

[2:06:03] They'll tell you something bad. Oh, that

[2:06:05] week at the beach in Etha.

[2:06:08] No. When my mom died, I loved her. When

[2:06:12] somebody left me at the altar, when I

[2:06:15] got fired, when I lost my business, god

[2:06:19] forbid, when I lost a child, people look

[2:06:20] back and they say, "That was the moment.

[2:06:23] That was when I knew." Why? Because

[2:06:25] that's when we were truly integrated.

[2:06:27] That's when we became integrated human

[2:06:28] beings. That's what it means to be fully

[2:06:30] alive, to find meaning. And ultimately,

[2:06:32] that is the path to happiness.

[2:06:35] >> Let that sink in for people. That's the

[2:06:38] real wisdom. And I I I'm going to stop

[2:06:41] you cuz I know you're super humble and

[2:06:42] you're going to pass it off on to

[2:06:43] someone else or something else. But um

[2:06:46] uh you really have a gift. Uh and it it

[2:06:49] comes through.

[2:06:49] >> Thank you, Andrew. That means a lot

[2:06:50] coming from you.

[2:06:51] >> Yeah, you really do because it like a

[2:06:54] lot of different ways people can say

[2:06:55] important things, but sometimes things

[2:06:57] just land and they just need to sit for

[2:06:59] a sec. So, um,

[2:07:02] >> I have some questions from that were

[2:07:03] prompted in your book, but I want to

[2:07:05] make sure that we return to this notion

[2:07:07] of faith. It's not something we talk a

[2:07:08] lot about on this podcast. I've talked

[2:07:09] about as a guest on other podcasts, but

[2:07:11] but you and I had a conversation about

[2:07:13] that. And I think probably by the time

[2:07:14] that this episode airs,

[2:07:16] >> that conversation at Stanford will also

[2:07:18] be public.

[2:07:19] >> Yes.

[2:07:20] >> And I recommend people watch it because

[2:07:22] that was really moving for me to have

[2:07:25] that conversation with you.