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Inspiration

Women in Yoga History: From Vedic Ritual to Modern Asana

YM
Yoga Medicine
Oct 22, 2026
10 min de leitura

De Yoga Medicine

Assistir · 6

Somewhere inside a 200-hour yoga teacher training, a student asked Firdose Moonda a question nobody had put to her in quite that form: had asana, the movement practice, really travelled from Indian men to white Western women and then, only at the end of that circle, back to a brown woman like her? That question is the spine of "Women in Yoga: Expert Insights with Firdose Moonda," a Yoga Medicine podcast episode hosted by Rachel Land. Moonda, a broadcaster, journalist, academic, yoga teacher and researcher who holds an MA in the traditions of yoga and meditation from SOAS, works backward from today's magazine covers and activewear campaigns toward the Vedic fire altar, the great epics, fierce goddesses, medieval devotional voices, and Indra Devi's part in moving asana West. Her throughline is that yoga has no single, straightforward history, that ancient material cannot be read cleanly through modern eyes, and that the teachers and practitioners working today are writing the next chapter themselves.

Leitura · 8 seções

What did a student's question reveal about the story we tell about yoga?

Moonda is candid that the whole course grew out of one exchange in a training room. Her account is that most teachers carry a rough outline of yoga history: it was once a male practice and is now mostly done by women, especially on social media, in magazines and in active-wear advertising. What falls in between, the centuries that connect ancient texts to contemporary capitalist Western yoga, is largely blank. The student's question forced Moonda to hear her own position as a sequence of moves, not a fact.

"Nobody had ever put it to me that way. And I thought actually, yeah, she's right. That that is exactly what I'm saying." (Firdose Moonda, Yoga Medicine podcast, at 2:45)

The point is less that the student was wrong than that the question exposed a gap. The story as usually told runs in a straight line from ancient India to the modern studio, and it skips the women, the lineages and the cultural translations that made the line possible. Moonda's response was to build a course around the blanks, and she describes them as an opportunity: "there's a lot we don't know which means there's a lot of room to play." That phrase, more than any single fact in the episode, sets the tone for how to listen to it.

How old is the asana most of us practise, really?

Before looking for women in yoga's movement practice, Moonda makes a dating argument that most students never hear. The asana we practise today, she explains, is around 150 years old at its oldest. A handful of poses are much older: sitting cross-legged, the lotus position and some of the very basic twists, which she traces to roughly the 15th century, but she notes that very few poses come from that period. A proliferation of poses appears from the 17th century, including demanding forms such as the one-handed handstand. Most of the sequences in a typical class, in other words, belong to the last century and a half.

That timeline changes the research question. If you ask where women appear in the physical practice, you can start with the 150 years we can document and then move forward into the last 60 or 70, when women began to shape the form. Or you can go back before asana existed and work through metaphor, mythology and what Moonda calls "yoga adjacent" content, which later got folded into the practice. The second route is harder, but it is the one she takes for most of the course, because it asks what women were doing in the world that yoga's ideas grew out of.

(Listeners who want to hear this reasoning in full can find it around the 4:28 mark of the conversation, where the age of the poses is laid out.)

Were women really part of the earliest ritual, or only imagined there?

Moonda starts with the oldest practice of the Vedic era, the ritual fire sacrifice. In that setting, a married male householder performed the sacrifice, and a woman's presence was required. Her role, though, was to be there silently. Moonda frames this as the first and most useful puzzle: a woman could physically occupy the space while being, in her phrase, "present but invisible." The question she asks her students is what that position actually meant, and what it would mean to live inside it.

"We start with that understanding of like I can physically be in a space but what does it mean to almost be present but invisible." (Firdose Moonda, Yoga Medicine podcast, at 6:13)

The approach matters because it refuses two easy stories. One says women were excluded from ritual entirely, which the fire altar's requirement contradicts. The other says women were full participants, which its silence complicates. Holding both at once is the kind of historical thinking the episode keeps modelling. It also tees up the central warning of the conversation: the Vedic world is not a Western yoga studio with different clothes, and reading it that way flattens both.

Who were the epic women, and were they just stereotypes?

When Moonda moves to the epics, which she describes as myth and poetry rather than documentary record, she names specific women she returns to across her courses. The first is Sita, wife of Rama in the Ramayana. Sita is written as the perfect wife, obedient and submissive, a figure many modern listeners will recoil from. Her ordeal begins when she is kidnapped by a demon king and then rescued. Her husband then refuses to believe she has remained faithful during her captivity and sets her a series of challenges to prove her fidelity. Moonda argues that these trials, unfair and punishing as they are, are part of what the epic defines as the struggle of womanhood.

"Those challenges and those kind of really really tough and potentially very unfair tests are what really define the struggle of womanhood." (Firdose Moonda, Yoga Medicine podcast, at 7:05)

The epics are not uniformly passive, though. Moonda points to Draupadi, who is married to the five Pandava brothers, and who lives an unusual arrangement that the tradition rarely discusses. Draupadi's story turns on the Pandavas' overreach. They fall into gambling after conquering large territories, and they eventually lose her in a gambling match, because she is the only possession they have left. Moonda's comment that this is "a bit weird to think about" is typical of how she invites students to sit with discomfort instead of tidying it up.

Her teaching method draws the same lesson. Nobody practised physical postures for exercise in those periods; people walked, carried water and worked. Moonda asks students to imagine themselves into those bodies and those routines rather than projecting a modern studio onto them. The result is a more physical history of women than the stereotypes allow: the epic woman as someone who moves, labours and sometimes pushes back against the system she lives inside.

What do Mirabai and Indra Devi add to the arc?

The episode's chapter structure moves from the epics into the medieval period, where Moonda places Mirabai as a figure who challenged social expectations, and then to Indra Devi, whose chapter is framed around asana moving West. These are the hinges that connect the ancient material to the practice most readers recognise. The two sections show, in different ways, women who take devotion or practice beyond the roles prescribed for them, and whose lives became part of how yoga travelled.

Because the episode goes deeper into these figures than a summary can, the most useful way to approach them is as the bridge Moonda builds between the ritual and epic women above and the modern teacher below. Each step asks the same question she asked her trainee: what did women do, and how has that been reshaped in the telling?

Who is writing yoga's future history right now?

The episode's description makes an explicit claim: that today's teachers and practitioners are actively creating the future history of yoga. This reframes the whole conversation. If the past is full of gaps, the present is full of people filling them. Moonda's course is built on that premise. Her trainees are asked to research, question and reinterpret rather than memorise a settled lineage, and she treats the open gaps as a creative space rather than a deficiency.

The same logic applies to the limits of looking at ancient traditions through modern eyes. A reader who notices the tension between a silent wife at a fire altar and a confident teacher on a live stream is already doing the work Moonda describes. The question is not whether yoga's history is complicated, since she argues that it is, but whether today's teachers will tell it honestly.

Have we moved past fear-based cultural appropriation debates?

The episode closes its substantive discussion with a question that many yoga teachers have been circling: have we moved beyond fear-based accusations of cultural appropriation to truly honour yoga's roots? Moonda approaches it not as a settled verdict but as a conversation that needs to be had with clarity about what is being asked. Her central ethical frame, given in the episode description, is a line about freedom.

"The best part of having freedom is allowing somebody else to have their freedom and respecting that freedom even if you disagree with it." (Firdose Moonda, quoted in the Yoga Medicine episode description)

That sentence does a lot of work. It suggests that respect for yoga's roots need not require uniform agreement about who may teach what, or how, and it places the burden on practitioners to hold their own views without policing others. For a practice built on a long, contested, cross-cultural history, that is a demanding standard, and it is one the episode invites listeners to test against their own teaching.

Where to go from here

The episode is best heard in full, because Moonda's reasoning unfolds across the conversation rather than in a list of facts. Its published chapters run from the opening question about Indian men and Western women, through the Vedic ritual, the fierce goddesses, Mirabai, Indra Devi and the creation of yoga's future history, to the cultural appropriation question and the course itself. Listeners who want to go further can look at the Women in Yoga teacher training that Moonda has created, a live online programme running from November 5 to December 10, 2026, at yogamedicine.com/product/women-in-yoga-teacher-training-online/. Rachel Land's Strength + Stretch series on Yoga Medicine Online, linked in the episode notes at yogamedicine.com/video_playlist/strength-stretch-in-10-20-series/, offers a more physical companion to the history.

The most practical next step is the one Moonda models: when you next teach or practise a pose, ask what it actually came from, who was doing what around it, and which women's lives the story has left out. The gaps are where the work begins.

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Transcript

[0:03] You're listening to the Yoga Medicine

[0:05] Podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Land.

[0:09] This podcast brings you information and

[0:11] resources to enhance the therapeutic

[0:12] [music] effects of your practice based

[0:14] on a deeper understanding of anatomy,

[0:17] physiology, [music]

[0:18] and the integration of modern science

[0:19] and research with traditional practices

[0:22] and experiences.

[0:23] Join me and my co-hosts Tiffany

[0:26] Krookshank [music]

[0:26] and Kachu Bach as we dive into all

[0:29] things yoga research and wellness.

[0:34] Hello and welcome or welcome back to the

[0:36] yoga medicine podcast. Today we are

[0:39] diving into an aspect of yoga history

[0:41] that is probably unfamiliar and yet is

[0:44] of more personal relevance to most of us

[0:47] listening than the yoga history that we

[0:49] have learned. And that is the role of

[0:51] women in yoga. a role that has

[0:54] consistently been overlooked and

[0:56] underststudied.

[0:58] Our guide for the conversation is

[1:00] returning guest Fed Munda who as you'll

[1:03] remember is a broadcaster, journalist,

[1:05] academic, yoga teacher and researcher.

[1:09] She holds an MA in the traditions of

[1:11] yoga and meditation from the school of

[1:14] oriental and African studies and is

[1:16] undertaking doctoral work into the

[1:18] politics of yoga. Fauos has created the

[1:22] upcoming yoga medicine live online women

[1:25] in yoga teacher training which runs from

[1:27] November 5 to December 10, 2026.

[1:31] So let's learn about the role of women

[1:34] in yoga both historic and modern with

[1:36] Fedos Munda.

[1:39] Hi Fedo, welcome back to the yoga

[1:41] medicine podcast.

[1:43] >> Hi Rachel and thank you so much for

[1:45] having me on. I think it might be my

[1:47] third time. So, I'm feeling like a bit

[1:49] of a regular, which is very cool. Four.

[1:51] Amazing.

[1:52] >> It definitely because we've had like

[1:54] yoga politics and history, yoga and

[1:56] religion, yoga's hidden history, and now

[1:58] we're talking women in yoga. So, podcast

[2:00] number four for you.

[2:01] >> Brilliant. Yay. Four. Excited.

[2:04] >> And as I hinted to, we are talking about

[2:07] women in yoga. I think most yoga

[2:09] teachers are in a similar boat to me

[2:11] where the extent that we know about yoga

[2:13] history is it used to be only for men

[2:16] and now it's mostly if you look at

[2:18] social media and magazine covers and you

[2:20] know active wear advertisements it's

[2:22] mostly done by women and we don't know

[2:25] too much about the area in between

[2:28] ancient times and current capitalist

[2:30] western times and you are here today to

[2:33] fill in some of the blanks and to get us

[2:35] curious and asking more questions.

[2:38] Yep, that's exactly it. So uh the idea

[2:40] for this course actually came about

[2:42] during one of my 200 hour teacher

[2:45] trainings where one of the students on

[2:47] hearing pretty much exactly what you've

[2:48] said you know that this practice evolves

[2:50] from a mostly male practice to a female

[2:53] dominated western practice looked at me

[2:56] and and said to me are you actually

[2:58] saying to us that yoga asa in particular

[3:01] so the movement practice and elements of

[3:04] breath work and meditation went from

[3:07] brown men Indian men to white women in

[3:10] the west and then only found their way

[3:12] back to someone like you, a brown woman.

[3:14] And when she said that to me, it was a

[3:17] really profound question. Nobody had

[3:18] ever put it to me that way. And I

[3:20] thought actually, yeah, she's she's

[3:22] right. That that is exactly what I'm

[3:23] saying. And it's kind of, you know, that

[3:25] circular journey that yoga has taken

[3:28] back to me as a woman who is quite

[3:32] connected to culture made me feel like

[3:34] there's something missing in in the

[3:36] exploration of of how I'm seeing myself

[3:38] here. So that led me to wanting to

[3:41] design the course. Um, I've just

[3:42] finished teaching a live version of it

[3:43] here at home in Cape Town, which will

[3:46] be, you know, the online version will be

[3:47] slightly different because the spaces

[3:48] are different. But I think it's it's a

[3:51] really interesting way of exploring

[3:52] things because there's so much room for

[3:54] as you say filling in gaps. You know,

[3:56] there's a lot we don't know which means

[3:59] there's a lot of room to play.

[4:01] >> Yeah. And the question from your student

[4:03] even focused purely on the arsenal side

[4:06] of yoga which as we now know is a

[4:09] relatively small part of the picture and

[4:11] I think today in our conversation you'll

[4:14] take us before that to look at some of

[4:16] those more ancient times.

[4:19] Yeah, exactly. So I mean asa as we as we

[4:22] practice it today. We know from all our

[4:23] history of yoga material is around 150

[4:26] years old. I mean some of the older asas

[4:28] come from the 15th century. Something

[4:30] like sitting cross-legged or lotus

[4:33] position or some of the very uh basic

[4:36] twists would be you know from an older

[4:38] time but they're very few poses from

[4:40] from that time. Then we have a

[4:42] proliferation of poses from the 17th

[4:44] century. very difficult poses like

[4:46] one-handed handstand which I don't think

[4:48] a lot of us practice so

[4:50] >> well I mean I haven't done it today but

[4:51] you know maybe tomorrow

[4:53] >> maybe tomorrow most of the sequences we

[4:55] we practice would be about 150 years old

[4:58] at their oldest and so I guess you're

[5:01] right when when we're trying to look at

[5:04] where is the female involvement we can

[5:06] either start at that point and and say

[5:07] where is the female involvement in the

[5:09] movement practice and then we've got to

[5:11] look even more recent to about 60 or 70

[5:13] years ago or we've got to go back and

[5:15] we've got to look at metaphor mythology

[5:18] and really almost like yoga adjacent

[5:21] content that we then bring into the

[5:23] practice. So that's kind of what I'm

[5:24] doing in a lot of this course.

[5:26] >> Great. So let's start then in the really

[5:29] early times around the the Vaders and

[5:33] the epics. Let's start talking about the

[5:36] role of women there. Was it a real role?

[5:38] Was it more sort of imagined or

[5:41] stereotyped?

[5:43] >> Yes. So the real role was there in that

[5:45] the oldest practice of the Vadic era was

[5:47] the ritual fire sacrifice and the ritual

[5:50] fire sacrifice required that a married

[5:53] male householder performed the

[5:55] sacrifice. So the woman's presence was

[5:56] required but she needed to be there

[5:59] silently and I think that that's a very

[6:02] interesting way to approach it. You know

[6:04] we start with that you're here.

[6:07] >> I think my partner would be on board.

[6:09] [laughter]

[6:10] >> Yeah, mine too. Mine too. So you know we

[6:13] start with that understanding of like I

[6:15] can physically be in a space but what

[6:17] does it mean to almost be present but

[6:19] invisible and kind of looking looking

[6:22] through that and then we move to the

[6:24] epics which are myths and and poetry and

[6:27] we look at the way that women are

[6:29] characterized in the epics. So I try and

[6:31] focus on different women in different

[6:33] courses that I teach. One who crops up

[6:35] over and over again is Sitta the wife of

[6:37] Ram from the Ramayana. And Sitta is

[6:41] really she comes across and her role is

[6:44] to be the perfect wife, obedient,

[6:45] submissive, all the things I suppose

[6:48] that we would recoil against and and to

[6:51] and the challenges that she's got to go

[6:53] through because she's kidnapped by the

[6:55] demon king and and then rescued. And

[6:57] when she's rescued, her husband refuses

[7:00] to believe that she has been faithful to

[7:01] him during the time of her kidnapping

[7:03] and puts her through various challenges

[7:05] to prove her fidelity. And eventually, I

[7:08] mean, I won't tell you eventually,

[7:09] you'll have to join the course to find

[7:10] out, but you know, that those challenges

[7:12] and those kind of really really tough

[7:15] and potentially very unfair tests are

[7:18] what really define the struggle of

[7:20] womanhood. So, there's that element of

[7:21] it, but then you get some very strong,

[7:23] rebellious women, women who try and push

[7:26] back against the system and who live

[7:28] very unusual lives like Draadi who's

[7:30] married to the five Panda brothers. So

[7:32] she's one wife and she has five husbands

[7:35] and yeah, we don't hear about that too

[7:37] often

[7:38] >> and kind of the role that she plays in

[7:41] in almost watching their downfall

[7:43] because they end up wanting to conquer

[7:45] lots of territory and they fall into

[7:47] gambling and eventually they lose her in

[7:49] a gambling match because she's the only

[7:50] possession they have left which in

[7:52] itself is a bit weird to think about. So

[7:54] those epic women uh yes there's a lot of

[7:56] stereotype uh but the way that I present

[8:00] the physical class because obviously

[8:02] nobody was doing physical postures at

[8:04] that point not certainly not for any

[8:06] kind of exercise of course they were

[8:07] moving around walking and carrying water

[8:09] and so on is that we've really got to

[8:11] imagine ourselves there. So there's a

[8:13] lot of theater in the way the physical

[8:15] class works, you know, and and I find

[8:18] that students are a little bit hesitant

[8:20] sometimes to just like let go of the the

[8:23] control of, you know, am I being a bit

[8:25] of an actor in this space, but yes, we

[8:27] are. We're trying to imagine ourselves

[8:28] in a completely different time. So I

[8:31] think it really gives us this embodied

[8:32] sense of like what could it have been

[8:35] like?

[8:36] >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's such an

[8:37] interesting question because when we

[8:40] look at anything ancient through a

[8:42] modern lens,

[8:44] >> it's really easy to judge it by current

[8:46] standards. You know, as you were saying,

[8:48] obedient and silent and, you know,

[8:51] respectful and all of the things that a

[8:52] wife should be. I was physically

[8:54] recoiling because when viewed through a

[8:56] modern lens, the submissive

[8:58] >> wife is for most of us at least a pretty

[9:02] unpleasant idea. But that's not what it

[9:05] would have felt like at the time. You

[9:07] know, there are very similar stereotypes

[9:09] in the Bible, for example.

[9:12] >> Precisely. And and you know, just to

[9:14] make it really visceral and tangible to

[9:16] our modern day, you know,

[9:18] >> there are a lot of women who continue to

[9:20] live that way and who not so long ago,

[9:23] even in a very kind of mo I mean, I'm in

[9:25] Cape Town in South Africa, which is

[9:27] definitely the global south, but we we

[9:28] also consider ourselves part of the

[9:30] Western world. you know, we're very

[9:32] influenced by American culture. I mean,

[9:33] you would know being down in New Zealand

[9:35] as well. So, and you're definitely not

[9:37] as global south as we are, but you know,

[9:39] even somebody like my mom had those

[9:41] kinds of ideas and you know, she's she's

[9:43] only a generation older than I am. So

[9:46] it's very interesting that that that

[9:49] idea and the idea of Sitha particularly

[9:51] in South Asian households lives on and

[9:54] to this day young women are growing up

[9:56] in the subcontinent with her as the role

[9:59] model for the kind of wives they should

[10:01] become. You know I grew up watching the

[10:03] story of the Ramayana and thinking maybe

[10:05] one day I would be that type of woman. I

[10:07] mean it it was really never on the cards

[10:09] but it wasn't absent in my life and it's

[10:11] not that long ago. Gosh, I imagine if

[10:14] I'd been reading those stories when I

[10:16] was a kid, I would have identified more

[10:18] with with like Hanuman. I'm I'm the

[10:20] monkey jumping over the gap and as

[10:22] opposed to being the woman rescued. But

[10:24] gosh, that said, there's a big

[10:25] resurgence of the whole tradife ideal of

[10:28] there being, you know, the perfect way

[10:30] to wife and for it to be

[10:32] >> beautiful and flawless and for

[10:34] everything to be made from scratch and

[10:36] not to have ambitions of your own

[10:37] outside of the household. So yeah, as

[10:40] much as I'd like to think we're away

[10:41] from that stereotype, we aren't. Not all

[10:43] of us and not everywhere.

[10:45] >> No. And not everybody wants to be. And I

[10:47] think it's also about then what does the

[10:50] how do you present in your body if that

[10:52] is the way you are choosing to live. So

[10:54] I mean the choice element is obviously

[10:56] one one part of it that I think is

[10:57] important. We have to be choosing it and

[10:59] not for it to be imposed upon us. But if

[11:02] you are choosing that as a lifestyle and

[11:04] and maybe it's not the kind of lifestyle

[11:06] I would choose but I I really believe

[11:08] very firmly in uh you know the best part

[11:11] of having freedom is allowing somebody

[11:14] else to have their freedom and

[11:16] respecting that freedom even if you

[11:17] disagree with it. So you know people can

[11:19] do what they want. I I I'm never

[11:21] prescriptive in in what I teach. And I

[11:23] just want to ask the question if that is

[11:25] the life that you that you've chosen how

[11:28] do you then show up in your body? How

[11:29] how is it different to the way another

[11:31] woman might show up in her body?

[11:33] >> Oh, interesting. Yeah, I love that. So,

[11:36] we've talked about the sort of very

[11:38] earliest times, the silent supportive

[11:42] role of women in the rituals,

[11:45] >> excuse me,

[11:46] >> the bless you. We've talked about some

[11:48] of the myths and stereotypes that that I

[11:52] think are present in a lot of cultures

[11:54] of there being idealized roles for

[11:56] people in in in culture in society and

[11:58] in the family. What comes next?

[12:02] >> So next we get to the goddess period

[12:05] which I think people get very excited

[12:06] about because they immediately jump to

[12:09] ideas of the feminine divine and they

[12:11] immediately jump to ideas of women as

[12:15] human figures being worshiped. Now the

[12:17] goddesses and particularly the fierce

[12:18] goddesses were not ordinary humans and

[12:21] they were depicted as scary, gruesome,

[12:25] violent. I mean Kylie and her 10 avatars

[12:28] appear in all sorts of forms. Most of

[12:31] them are are really terrifying. And my

[12:33] favorite one is Chinamasta who is the

[12:36] the self-beheaded goddess who carries

[12:38] her own head in her hand and walks

[12:41] around with a weapon and her own head

[12:43] and is is kind of the the symbolism is

[12:48] that you can be transformed by changing

[12:51] yourself completely and that there's an

[12:53] element of transformation in this

[12:55] complete almost death of oneself and

[12:58] one's ego and and that kind of thing.

[13:00] It's the images are are terrifying and

[13:02] and very interesting to look at. You

[13:04] know, there lots of goddesses with skull

[13:05] necklaces for example or standing on

[13:08] corpses and depicted in cremation

[13:10] grounds. I did a little bit of study on

[13:11] the 10 goddesses when I completed my

[13:13] master's degree. So it was one of the

[13:15] areas I was quite interested in probably

[13:17] for the same reasons. You know, I

[13:18] thought it would be cool to try and

[13:20] understand women in positions of

[13:22] dominance. But in fact, the 10 goddesses

[13:24] are often worshiped by men.

[13:26] >> And the idea around those goddesses is

[13:28] that you've got to touch the the

[13:30] terrifying and the disgusting and the

[13:33] gruesome in order to like fully cleanse

[13:35] yourself of all those things that are in

[13:37] you so that you can find the purity in

[13:40] yourself. So that class when we look at

[13:43] the goddesses we we really examine you

[13:45] know to me it's almost like the way the

[13:47] theory of orientalism works that when

[13:49] the west west looks upon the east it

[13:52] looks upon it as either very mystical or

[13:54] magical or quite sinister kind of like

[13:57] you know the saint and the snake charmer

[13:59] and it's the same I think in the way

[14:01] that women are viewed they either viewed

[14:02] as the perfect wife or the terrifying

[14:05] scary goddess and the middle ground is

[14:07] completely lost

[14:08] >> so we we study those goddesses through

[14:11] strength. So the class is quite a strong

[14:14] strength building class because the idea

[14:16] is that you want to build physical

[14:17] strength and then also through the idea

[14:20] of like where where does if we compare

[14:22] the woman of the epics and the goddesses

[14:25] where's the middle what kind of falls

[14:27] into that hole between being very

[14:30] submissive and very strong and there's

[14:32] obviously a lot a lot more in that

[14:34] middle ground that we look at in that

[14:36] session. And this this is sort of from

[14:40] the Tantra period. Is that right?

[14:42] >> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So this falls into

[14:44] the tantric period. We've moved into

[14:46] kind of so the the Vadic period covers a

[14:49] large period of time. We're talking of

[14:50] about 3,000 years potentially even more.

[14:53] And and the epics would then cover the

[14:55] period straddling the year N up until

[14:57] about the 4th century of the common era

[14:59] and then the tantric period from about

[15:00] the fifth century onwards. And it seems

[15:03] to me, not that I know much about them,

[15:05] but in in my understanding, once we get

[15:08] to tantra, there is sort of more

[15:09] interest in the the divine masculine and

[15:12] the divine feminine and masculine and

[15:14] feminine, Shiva, Shiva, all of that sort

[15:17] of stuff seems to come out in that

[15:19] period. Is that right? Yeah, pretty much

[15:21] so. So once we once we get to tantra, I

[15:23] would phrase it as what you're seeing is

[15:25] an interest in using the subtle body to

[15:28] connect with the divine because tantra

[15:30] is all about finding the divine within

[15:32] yourself. And it's very difficult to

[15:35] explain to people particularly people in

[15:37] the western world who would generally

[15:39] have a a concept of religion through the

[15:41] religions of the book. So Christianity,

[15:43] Judaism and Islam. Tantra is really not

[15:45] anything like that because there's no

[15:48] it's it's not about having a separation

[15:50] between divine and human. It's actually

[15:52] about the unification of that. And

[15:54] unless you actually see yourself that

[15:55] way, which I don't think a lot of us do,

[15:57] even if we say we do, you're you're

[16:00] going to struggle to understand the

[16:01] concept of communing with the divine

[16:03] within you. But that's really what

[16:05] tantra is about. And because there a lot

[16:08] of this is deity based practice, you

[16:10] mentioned Shiva comes up a lot. Shyism

[16:13] is one of the faiths that forms during

[16:14] this time and Krishna is also a big

[16:17] feature in Tantra and Krishna is a great

[16:20] he attracts a lot of female disciples

[16:23] almost in a ve in a romantic kind of

[16:24] love affair way which we'll talk about a

[16:26] little bit later as well and there is

[16:28] this idea of neverending love between a

[16:31] god and a consort and so we see that

[16:33] happening over and over again uh you

[16:36] know Parvati crops up a lot during this

[16:38] time as well Krishna and Rada crop up a

[16:40] lot during this time uh I I'm very um

[16:44] nervous I suppose of this idea of

[16:47] masculine and feminine and and of

[16:49] isolating qualities to to these things

[16:51] because I think we we too easily fall

[16:53] into stereotype there you know we too

[16:55] easily say masculine energy is powerful

[16:57] and feminine energy is subtle and I

[17:00] don't experience that in myself at all

[17:02] so I try to stay away from that language

[17:05] >> yeah it's very much like your previous

[17:07] example of the the saintly wife or the

[17:11] sort of semi a demonic goddess. There's

[17:13] there's no middle ground. And we can get

[17:14] the same when we classify things too

[17:16] neatly as masculine, feminine, black,

[17:18] white, yin, yang,

[17:20] >> when the reality is always a continuum.

[17:23] And you know, exceptions, too, right?

[17:25] Things that don't fit that model.

[17:28] >> Exactly. Yeah. I just think there's no I

[17:30] can't think of a good reason for us to

[17:33] create these binaries around, you know,

[17:36] what we are and what we should be. I

[17:38] think we should rather be seeing things

[17:39] on a spectrum and that's the way that I

[17:42] prefer to present it. So I I try and

[17:44] stay away from gendered language. I mean

[17:46] obviously the course is called woman in

[17:47] yoga which is a gendered term in and of

[17:49] itself but uh I'm trying to not say

[17:52] women in yoga must be like this or like

[17:55] that or like that or like that. I'm

[17:56] trying to say and in fact we have a lot

[17:58] of men who attend this course as well

[18:00] >> and who and they are welcome to and I

[18:03] want as many men as possible so that we

[18:06] we're getting you know everybody

[18:07] involved in the discussion.

[18:09] >> Yeah, I love this. I think it's a really

[18:11] important discussion simply because it

[18:13] is an area that so many of us know so

[18:15] little about. There seems to be such a

[18:17] massive gap between the ancient yogis

[18:20] that I reference uh without knowing all

[18:22] that much about them when I teach. the

[18:23] ancient yogis believed X and my

[18:26] experience of what yoga is to me today

[18:28] with my students in my little corner of

[18:31] the world that there are some pretty big

[18:33] gaps there. All right. So we are

[18:35] currently around the tantric period.

[18:38] What comes next?

[18:40] So then we move into a it's almost later

[18:43] tantric or medieval period where we I I

[18:46] zone in really on one woman who is the

[18:48] the poet princess

[18:50] and who is pretty much in love with the

[18:53] god Krishna and writes a series of poems

[18:57] in praise of Krishna. Krishna is really

[19:00] the god that is the most woripped in the

[19:03] bakti practice. So there's a huge sense

[19:05] of devotional practice here. Mirab is

[19:08] not the only poet who wrote to Krishna

[19:10] but she's a good example because she's a

[19:12] female and that's kind of the content of

[19:13] the course and she's also a rebel

[19:16] because she is a highcast woman who has

[19:18] an arranged marriage who then becomes a

[19:20] young widow and at the time and even to

[19:23] this day widows are isolated in in

[19:25] communities where they're not allowed to

[19:27] work or remarry or mix with society

[19:29] because they're considered to be

[19:31] inospicious and to bring bad luck to

[19:34] people. So she is supposed to be sort of

[19:38] confined to this widow's commune, but

[19:40] she breaks out and escapes and ends up

[19:44] being quite wild really like dancing

[19:46] through the streets with very little

[19:47] clothing on living on her own, devoting

[19:51] herself to Krishna, singing in public,

[19:53] um telling her family that she doesn't

[19:55] care about their family honor. And this

[19:57] is a big thing in South Asian culture

[19:58] because the woman carries the family's

[20:00] honor. And if the woman is to is to act

[20:03] in a way that is inappropriate, the

[20:05] entire family's honor is brought down.

[20:07] It's a huge responsibility. And whenever

[20:10] I teach this session, I I say to people,

[20:12] you know, we we talk about it like it's

[20:14] some other world that we don't think we

[20:17] could exist in, but it exists to this

[20:19] day. I mean, we have millions of Afghan

[20:22] women who are living with that burden of

[20:26] carrying the family's honor, who are

[20:27] subject to the most cruel restrictions

[20:30] from the Taliban regime. Many of whom,

[20:32] and I work in, you know, I work in sport

[20:34] and I've been working a lot with

[20:35] members, exiled members of the Afghan

[20:38] women's cricket and football team who

[20:40] that burden of carrying the family honor

[20:42] and the the price you may pay for that,

[20:44] which could be your life on some

[20:45] occasion exists to this day. So when we

[20:49] put that into context and we understand

[20:50] that Mirabai really took her life into

[20:52] her hands when she decided she was going

[20:54] to do that and we then look through the

[20:56] poems that she that she wrote and there

[20:58] were volumes and volumes of them. It

[21:01] really allows us to see inside the mind

[21:02] of a woman who wanted to make her own

[21:04] decisions and so we look through we do a

[21:07] little bit of writing in that session as

[21:08] well. So I bring in my my main career in

[21:11] fact which is my career as a writer. We

[21:13] listen to a lot of the poems in song. So

[21:16] a lot of them have been remade into

[21:17] budgeons and guzzles and we will listen

[21:19] to that as we practice. So the the

[21:21] course is a combination of physical

[21:22] practice and theory and we just try and

[21:25] think about you know what does it mean

[21:27] to really act in a way that society does

[21:29] not expect of you and and also at what

[21:32] cost because it sounds cool and

[21:34] rebellious and and you know we've all

[21:35] got this idea of the 60s in mind and you

[21:38] know what it was like you know free love

[21:39] and so on but it's not for many women

[21:42] it's dangerous to do something like that

[21:43] and it's not just about you know letting

[21:45] go and making one's own choice without

[21:47] there being consequences. So, I really

[21:49] want people to think through that.

[21:51] >> And this Mi was a a real person. She's a

[21:54] historical figure. She's not a figure

[21:55] from mythology. She's an actual real

[21:57] flesh and blood woman.

[22:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. She She's not a figure from

[22:02] mythology. Exactly. So, we we're

[22:03] starting to get, I guess, closer to

[22:05] reality as we move as we move on in time

[22:10] because Yeah, definitely. I mean, the

[22:11] goddesses are are absolutely figures of

[22:13] mythology, as are the the woman from the

[22:15] epics. So yeah, I guess now that you've

[22:18] asked it, she probably is our first real

[22:20] person that we encounter. [laughter]

[22:22] >> Yeah. And again, I love the fact that

[22:24] you've pointed out that it is so

[22:25] tempting as a modern listener to think,

[22:28] "What a cool chick. What a rock and roll

[22:30] chick." And she obviously is a very

[22:32] cool, very brave woman. But to to to

[22:36] highlight that, be careful there because

[22:38] there are consequences to those actions,

[22:40] not just for her, but for her family as

[22:42] well. And so there's always more

[22:44] complexity to stories than we would like

[22:46] there to be. You know, we want it to be

[22:48] much more.

[22:49] >> And then she lived happily ever after

[22:51] and the end. And that's not that's not

[22:53] life.

[22:54] >> No. And I think, you know, there's a lot

[22:56] to to think about in terms of western

[22:59] feminism and and what Western feminism

[23:02] thinks women can achieve just by

[23:06] rebelling, putting their minds to it,

[23:08] going against the norms. because you

[23:10] know and I I live in Africa and and I'm

[23:12] very involved in African feminist ideas.

[23:15] African feminism is a completely

[23:16] different thing to western feminism as

[23:18] is South Asian feminism in that you know

[23:21] a lot of the responsibilities and

[23:22] burdens on women in these parts of the

[23:24] world are completely different. What's

[23:26] expected of them is completely

[23:28] different. their roles as mothers,

[23:29] grandmothers, sisters, members of the

[23:31] community require certain things of them

[23:34] which you you would be cutting down the

[23:37] bonds of their communities if they were

[23:38] to step too far outside of that. And

[23:40] women tend not to want to do that. They

[23:43] want to hold these things together. So I

[23:45] think it's a really worth thinking about

[23:47] what does it mean to resist in that

[23:49] context and it doesn't mean run away

[23:51] from your home and never speak to your

[23:53] family again and live your own life on

[23:56] your own terms. It actually means

[23:57] working within the system and working to

[24:00] change the system while you are still in

[24:02] it. So it's a very different concept and

[24:05] yeah I find a lot of students start to

[24:07] at this point in the course you know you

[24:08] we're normally about 3 weeks in around

[24:10] here start to really think about you

[24:12] know the nuance of what it means to take

[24:15] responsibility or to have

[24:16] self-governance and self-acountability

[24:19] because we don't live in isolation. You

[24:21] know, we live in communities who who

[24:23] depend on us some of the time, but also

[24:25] we live in communities who influence us

[24:27] and who we influence. And it's part of

[24:29] our jobs to be responsible members of

[24:31] those communities.

[24:34] >> Yeah. Another huge bucket of questions,

[24:37] right, of what even is feminism in the

[24:40] West? You know, it was different in my

[24:42] mother's generation where feminism

[24:44] meant,

[24:45] >> you know, going to university and

[24:47] getting a job and burning your bra and

[24:49] doing everything the guys could do. And

[24:51] there were some pluses to that and there

[24:53] were some minuses to that. And in in my

[24:56] generation and in the generation

[24:57] subsequent to me, it means something

[24:59] different again. And I hear a lot of

[25:00] younger women hesitant even to call

[25:02] themselves feminists now

[25:04] >> because they want to be, I guess,

[25:06] peopleists, which I respect.

[25:09] >> I get it. Yeah, it's

[25:11] >> very tricky conversation, isn't it?

[25:13] Because I I I feel like in some ways I

[25:16] want to link it to some of the

[25:17] anti-racism movements that we saw, which

[25:20] was that, you know, we we don't live in

[25:23] a world where everybody starts off the

[25:25] same position and where everybody is,

[25:28] you know, on the same, you know, that

[25:29] that very interesting picture where

[25:31] people are all peeping over the wall and

[25:32] someone's on a very high block and

[25:34] someone's on a low block and someone's

[25:35] on a medium block. That that's life,

[25:37] right? we're all starting from a

[25:38] different place. That will probably

[25:40] always be the case. And so there are

[25:42] certain groups, there are certain types

[25:44] of people for whom, you know, we do have

[25:46] to to advocate a little bit more. But I

[25:50] think, you know, having watched

[25:51] something like adolescence, was it

[25:52] earlier this year or last year, I can't

[25:54] remember, which which talks about, you

[25:57] know, the plight of young boys in in

[25:59] Britain in particular. It also made me

[26:02] consider what do we do when when we put

[26:06] the woman or our feminist discussions at

[26:09] the center of so much conversation to

[26:11] the point of exclusion of the men in our

[26:13] communities. We can't be

[26:16] >> we can't really be operating in silos. I

[26:18] think we've got to be inviting each

[26:20] other in. We've got to get to the point

[26:21] where we having conversations with each

[26:23] other. So, of course, I I mean I I feel

[26:26] very strongly that we should be

[26:27] anti-racist, that we should be feminist,

[26:29] that we should aim for those kinds of

[26:31] things. But at the same time, we need to

[26:33] we need to be doing it together. We need

[26:34] to be saying to everybody, how can you

[26:36] contribute as well? And for to have that

[26:38] conversation, everybody's got to feel

[26:40] comfortable in themselves, in their

[26:41] bodies, in their presence, in how

[26:42] they're showing up. And everybody's got

[26:44] to feel like it's a space where they can

[26:45] share honestly and openly. Very

[26:47] difficult.

[26:48] >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. Extremely difficult.

[26:51] And have I taken us? Have I waylaid us?

[26:54] We have introduced a real woman, a poet

[26:58] and a rebel. What comes next in your

[27:02] history of

[27:02] >> So next we we then um start to look at

[27:05] the actual involvement of women in the

[27:07] development of the asa practice. So

[27:09] there's quite a big gap between Miabai

[27:12] in the 15th 16th century and then when

[27:14] we get to essentially yoga moving west

[27:17] in the 19th and 20th centuries and that

[27:20] gap you know a lot of research still

[27:21] needs to be done to fill that gap in but

[27:24] we jump to Indra Devi who was the first

[27:27] female student of the Asa Guru Krishna

[27:29] Macharia who moved to the US. So she had

[27:33] a long and storied career in that um her

[27:36] husband was in a console general and

[27:38] then they lived in China then he passed

[27:40] away then she moved to the US and in the

[27:42] US she opened a yoga studio and and she

[27:45] really became the celebrity yoga teacher

[27:47] of her time and she taught the likes of

[27:49] Gloria Swanson and Marilyn Monroe and

[27:52] Zaza Gabbor and in 1959 she writes a

[27:55] book called Yoga for Americans which I

[27:57] love it because she's being pretty

[27:58] honest. She's saying the yoga we need to

[28:01] teach here has to be slightly different

[28:02] and you Americans need a different way

[28:04] of thinking about this. And it's a six

[28:06] week uh course in which she teaches six

[28:10] weeks of physical postures, breathing

[28:12] exercises. She's also got some very

[28:14] interesting things about like how one

[28:15] should get out of bed and all these

[28:17] kinds of things. And we we do a couple

[28:19] of the weeks courses in our physical

[28:22] practice and we talk about her and her

[28:23] legacy. And so yes, it's the second real

[28:26] person that we're meeting and it's, you

[28:28] know, she's probably the most prominent

[28:30] female figure in Asa Yoga up until

[28:33] Instagram, you know, and and I do think

[28:35] that it is worth thinking about how it

[28:38] is that a Latvian woman born in the the

[28:41] Soviet Empire ends up becoming the face

[28:44] of Asa Yoga in the US when there are,

[28:47] you know, close to a billion people in

[28:48] India by this point in time and we're

[28:50] not seeing those women represented at

[28:52] all.

[28:53] >> Yeah. And it's also fascinating to me

[28:55] that it starts in Hollywood with with

[28:58] the stars. And I feel like we can we can

[29:01] still feel the legacy of that in modern

[29:03] postural yoga in the west now. The sort

[29:05] of

[29:06] >> you know you when I was first practicing

[29:09] it was Sting and Madonna who were

[29:10] practicing and then it was Jennifer

[29:12] Aniston doing Ashtanga and it has

[29:15] continued to be driven by the trends

[29:17] that are exhibited by famous people and

[29:19] then Instagram famous people. Yeah, we

[29:21] can see that legacy today.

[29:24] Absolutely. And also, you know, beyond

[29:26] just the fame, a lot of these people

[29:29] would have had backgrounds in dance

[29:31] >> and gymnastics and theater.

[29:34] >> Yeah. But but their mobility was

[29:37] generally at a more advanced level than

[29:39] the average human. And so a lot of what

[29:41] you see that is physically possible in

[29:44] that space is not physically possible in

[29:46] your average studio down the road. And

[29:48] people are not seeing that. So I think

[29:50] that it's very important that we talk

[29:52] about that.

[29:53] >> I think so too. And I think for a lot of

[29:55] people there is a bit of a reality gap

[29:57] between your teacher training and the

[29:59] pictures that you see in the textbook

[30:01] and then [laughter] you go out and teach

[30:02] people who aren't in your teacher

[30:04] training.

[30:05] >> You know, a little bit changing these

[30:07] days, but it used to be all people who

[30:08] were fairly flexible themselves and

[30:10] pretty able-bodied. And then you'd go to

[30:13] teach the general public and and it

[30:15] would be quite a shock to be h how do I

[30:18] adapt this textbook picture to the

[30:20] actual people in front of me who they

[30:22] don't go that way? They don't bend that

[30:24] way. That doesn't touch the ground.

[30:26] That's, you know, that's twisted. That's

[30:28] a Yeah.

[30:29] >> Yeah. 100%. I mean, Rachel, you know, my

[30:31] my main work is really on on teacher

[30:33] trainings. And one of the things I'm

[30:35] seeing the most especially in our 200

[30:38] hour teacher trainings and I teach uh

[30:39] eight trainings a year in three

[30:41] different countries where the students

[30:44] on the training tend to be quite

[30:46] proficient in yoga asa and so instead of

[30:50] teaching how to get into a pose they

[30:52] will just say now go into whatever wild

[30:56] thing warrior 2 if I don't know what

[30:58] that is how am I going to go into that

[31:00] you need to tell me this is what you

[31:02] need to do with your right leg. This is

[31:05] what you need to do with your arm. And

[31:06] and unless you're giving those

[31:08] instructions, you're not teaching. Then

[31:11] you're just you're just choreographing,

[31:12] right? And I really feel

[31:14] >> place there there are definitely some

[31:16] classes that people go to who already

[31:18] know what they're doing in ASA and want

[31:21] >> something set to music, something that

[31:22] has a really rhythmic flow to it.

[31:24] There's a place for it. But for the

[31:26] average people that I teach, yeah,

[31:28] you're going to have to be a guide along

[31:31] the way. and they'll need to actually

[31:33] have to teach different proportions and

[31:34] Yeah, you do. You have to teach.

[31:36] >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, it's a

[31:38] completely different conversation, but

[31:39] I'll just throw the nugget in here

[31:40] because we've kind of gone that way. I I

[31:43] really feel and I'm thinking about this

[31:44] very seriously that on teacher

[31:46] trainings, we actually need a separate

[31:48] model on pedagogy. We need a separate

[31:50] module which tells people these are the

[31:53] different ways that you can teach. Yoga

[31:56] as a discipline has always followed a

[31:58] hierarchy model of teaching. Almost all

[32:01] the yoga texts you know right up until

[32:03] Patabi Joyce, Krishna, Machara and Ayena

[32:05] which is very very recent say that you

[32:08] cannot do yoga without the presence of a

[32:10] teacher and that attempting such could

[32:12] even be dangerous and harmful. So they

[32:14] always want the hierarchy of the teacher

[32:16] in the space. That's not the only way to

[32:19] teach. Latin American models of teaching

[32:21] teach about a two-way system of teaching

[32:23] where the teacher and the student are in

[32:25] equal parts of conversation and

[32:27] discussion throughout a class. And I I

[32:30] just feel as though if we can present to

[32:32] people different ways of teaching, you

[32:34] know, we have very unique and different

[32:36] systems of teaching in Africa. And if

[32:38] you can present to people, there are so

[32:40] many different ways that you can teach,

[32:42] then we are actually producing better

[32:44] teachers. It's a I know it's a

[32:45] completely different discussion from

[32:46] what we're having right now, but it

[32:47] really is something so crucial

[32:50] >> because I do feel like the way that yoga

[32:52] ara has historically been taught by male

[32:55] gurus has been a very straightforward.

[32:58] You know, I'm the expert and I'm handing

[33:00] down from my expertise your instructions

[33:02] and you will follow the instructions.

[33:04] And I think that works for certain

[33:05] people in certain settings for certain

[33:07] personalities. But I do think the way

[33:09] that you're suggesting that's more

[33:11] collaborative has more of what we would

[33:14] stereotypically call feminine energy to

[33:16] it that there is collaboration. Right?

[33:19] I've gone right back to the gender

[33:20] stereotypes. But there is that more

[33:22] collaborative and cooperative approach

[33:24] and we're learning together. I'm

[33:26] learning from you and you're learning

[33:27] from me and I'm adjusting my approach in

[33:29] response to what I see that

[33:31] >> exactly.

[33:32] >> I think it does belong to this

[33:33] conversation is what I'm saying.

[33:35] >> Well, I hope so. I mean I I think what

[33:37] I'm seeing a lot of as well is that

[33:39] people don't have the as clear an idea

[33:42] as they should is maybe the best way to

[33:44] put it of what they are teaching. So in

[33:46] terms of our journey through the pages

[33:49] of history, we are now around

[33:53] recognizable modern times right we're

[33:55] talking about names that those of us who

[33:57] are in modern yoga have heard of whether

[33:59] that's Indra Devi or whether that is

[34:01] Krishna Macharia or his other students

[34:03] including BKSA and so on and so forth.

[34:06] We are now starting to talk about the

[34:07] more recognizable arena schools that

[34:09] have made their way to the west. um any

[34:12] other female figures that really spring

[34:14] to mind in this phase?

[34:16] >> Yeah. So we will then circle back to now

[34:19] thinking about essentially women like

[34:21] me. So once you have the Indra Devi era

[34:24] and you have uh yoga taking off in the

[34:26] western world, it then evolves into

[34:28] various schools of western yoga. You get

[34:31] things like Janmukti yoga, then we get

[34:33] the Kundalini yoga schools. I mean there

[34:36] are all sorts of issues and

[34:37] controversies and problems around a lot

[34:39] of these which we will not go into in

[34:40] this course that's for another day but

[34:43] eventually you know we start to ask the

[34:45] question is what happened to the brown

[34:46] woman and so Gita who is the daughter of

[34:49] BKS crops up as I suppose the most

[34:51] prominent figure there she picks up on a

[34:53] bit of a younger legacy she doesn't

[34:55] really like invent a lot of different

[34:57] asa she does write a book which is aimed

[35:00] at women and yoga for women but I think

[35:02] the invention of asa for women doesn't

[35:05] really come until probably you and I

[35:06] sitting here and and some of the things

[35:08] that you've invented and I've invented

[35:09] and teachers like us have invented but

[35:12] there will be a session where we look at

[35:15] how do brown women relate to their

[35:18] bodies in a period where you know the

[35:20] asa is really being practiced in the

[35:22] west by primarily white women and what

[35:25] about women in other parts of the world

[35:27] what about African women and so for me I

[35:29] mean I have a quite a long background of

[35:32] when I was starting to figure out how do

[35:34] I relate to my body started doing a lot

[35:37] of Middle Eastern dance because that

[35:38] would be the other side of my heritage.

[35:40] So things like uh Persian dance, belly

[35:42] dance, that kind of thing. And those I

[35:45] mean without now going back into the

[35:47] stereotype, those do feel quite feminine

[35:50] and they do feel quite it's a completely

[35:53] different way of moving the body because

[35:55] it's loose.

[35:57] >> It's it's quite felt. It's sensual. And

[36:00] so that is what I look at in that

[36:02] session is is if I was to say what I

[36:05] experience in my body and and what feels

[36:07] and I mean I do a range of physical

[36:09] activities as as do a lot of people you

[36:11] know some of which do feel quite

[36:14] restrictive. I mean like if I'm swimming

[36:15] in a in a swimming pool I I have to

[36:17] follow the line. I can't like I suppose

[36:19] I could completely swim diagonally

[36:21] across the pool but I might irritate a

[36:23] lot of people so I won't do that.

[36:24] >> There would be consequences right just

[36:26] like your rebellious princess. So yeah,

[36:29] we kind of look at those different

[36:31] movement movement forms and also the

[36:33] influence you know a lot of these for

[36:35] movement forms particularly Indian dance

[36:37] baratium dance uh draws heavily on yoga

[36:40] and yoga draws heavily on on aspects of

[36:42] of that dance and that you know there's

[36:45] simple things in those dances which

[36:46] carry through to to a lot of modern

[36:49] dance. So something like the turnout in

[36:50] ballet or the pa that has its origins in

[36:54] classical Persian dance because you do a

[36:56] lot of turnout in that kind of

[36:58] that kind of movement form. So basic

[37:00] movements like that, I mean it's quite

[37:02] fun. We get a little bit, you know,

[37:04] crazy and and really enjoy just feeling

[37:06] into how can the body feel different. I

[37:09] mean, building strength, building

[37:11] muscle, taking your body through ranges

[37:13] of motion. These are all very precise

[37:14] things which we can and must do because

[37:17] we want to be able to get off the toilet

[37:18] when we're 90. But we can also sometimes

[37:22] just have a little bit of fun and not

[37:23] take everything so seriously and not

[37:25] need to move to precision. And so that's

[37:27] what we'll look at in in our penultimate

[37:30] um session of the course.

[37:31] >> Oh, and you've used one of my favorite

[37:33] words too, penultimate. I love it. Any

[37:36] excuse I can get to put that in

[37:37] conversation. Yeah, I love this. I I

[37:40] love all this exploration because there

[37:42] is an aspect of asa that most of us are

[37:45] familiar with that is quite linear,

[37:46] right? We have the sun salutation. We

[37:49] have our, you know, sagittal plane

[37:51] forward and back poses. We have our

[37:52] sideways facing poses that you know some

[37:55] schools of thought are much more precise

[37:57] about the angles and the distances and

[37:59] and you know all of that sort of stuff

[38:01] and some are a little bit looser but

[38:02] there is an element of prescription to

[38:04] it but is that the way that it needs to

[38:06] be

[38:07] >> is that the most suitable way

[38:09] >> to support us in our modern lives. Yeah,

[38:11] I don't know. It depends on our

[38:12] intention when we come to the mat. So I

[38:14] love the fact that you're asking people

[38:16] to ask those questions. What would an

[38:19] ASA asa practice that is supportive for

[38:22] this woman me? What would that look

[38:24] like?

[38:24] >> Exactly. And it also won't be the same

[38:26] all the time, right? I mean, I think

[38:28] that as I get a little bit old, I'm

[38:30] saying a little bit older. I'm getting

[38:31] as old as anybody else is getting.

[38:33] >> You do think that like variety is is

[38:36] probably more beneficial than constantly

[38:40] going back and doing the same thing over

[38:42] and over again. Primarily because and

[38:44] and I've I've been saying this a lot in

[38:46] the last month on which I've been

[38:47] involved in three different teacher

[38:49] trainings. So just take that from where

[38:50] it comes from. Primarily because a lot

[38:52] of the time things can just get a little

[38:54] bit boring. Like you want to you want to

[38:56] mix it up, right? You want to I want to

[38:58] be able to do something different and

[39:00] fun and stimulating and and sometimes

[39:02] it's not about the the range of motion

[39:04] or the body or or exactly how heavy I'm

[39:07] lifting or whatever the case might be.

[39:09] Sometimes it's just about having fun and

[39:11] that is equally beneficial as lifting a

[39:13] heavy weight and making sure that I'm

[39:15] building good glute strength so that I

[39:16] can run tomorrow morning. You know, we

[39:18] can have both.

[39:18] >> Yeah, I we're on the same page. I think

[39:20] that is a very yoga medicine friendly

[39:22] approach of there are things that you

[39:24] want to do well and do consistent

[39:27] consistently, but there is also space

[39:29] for the wonder and the magic and

[39:31] playfulness and [clears throat]

[39:32] exploration and curiosity and and those

[39:35] are equally important places.

[39:38] Yeah,

[39:38] >> exactly.

[39:39] >> All right. So, if we're continuing

[39:41] through our history, we have gotten

[39:43] toward the modern era where Instagram

[39:46] yoga mostly female presenting, mostly

[39:50] white presenting. There's been a little

[39:52] bit of change in that recently, but but

[39:54] that's the overwhelming picture we get

[39:56] of women in yoga. White, thin, athletic,

[40:01] agile, it's physical.

[40:03] >> Yeah. And there are some things missing

[40:05] from that picture, obviously.

[40:08] many many many things and and I think

[40:09] that's what our final session will will

[40:12] consider. It will be more future gazing

[40:14] than it will be kind of wallowing in the

[40:17] current state of events. In that I I

[40:19] really invite participants in in all the

[40:22] courses that I teach, not not just this

[40:23] one, to understand that yoga history is

[40:26] not static,

[40:27] >> to understand that we are actually

[40:31] creating what will be next year and next

[40:34] decade's history of yoga. And so what we

[40:37] do now is important because in 10 years,

[40:40] 15 years, 20 years time, someone is

[40:42] going to look back on what we did and

[40:44] say and then yoga evolved into this

[40:47] >> and that will be what we are doing now.

[40:49] So the last session of all pretty much

[40:51] all the courses I teach is something

[40:53] which is really aimed at allowing

[40:56] participants to think about what should

[40:58] it look like for me in the future. What

[41:00] do I want it to look like? How can I

[41:02] make this my own? How can I put my own

[41:04] stamp on it? I I love that I always hear

[41:07] this from you and I don't remember

[41:08] hearing this from anybody before having

[41:10] these conversations with you that we are

[41:13] creating history right now. And I mean

[41:15] that's true in every aspect of our lives

[41:17] and yet it had never occurred to me

[41:19] before you said it that we are creating

[41:21] future history right now. We aren't just

[41:23] subject to it. We can have a say in it.

[41:25] And I think

[41:26] >> yoga has at least in the west dropped a

[41:29] little from its peak in popularity. And

[41:31] I think for us that could be a really

[41:32] good thing because it means people come

[41:34] aren't coming in with the kind of

[41:36] crystallized expectations that they had

[41:39] when yoga was the cool thing to do, the

[41:41] popular thing to do. And that gives us,

[41:43] I think, a bit more room to actually

[41:45] present things that we think might be

[41:47] helpful that don't have to fit in of

[41:49] what is expected. Yeah, you're not the

[41:52] first person to kind of see that um

[41:54] optimism in in the trend drop off, which

[41:57] yeah, I think it's probably we we need

[41:58] to acknowledge that there is a trend

[42:00] drop off because of various other other

[42:02] modalities. And I don't I also look I

[42:04] think it's a bad thing because I've

[42:06] definitely seen fewer people on my

[42:07] trainings, teacher trainings in

[42:08] particular, which is not not good for my

[42:10] bank account. But at the same time, you

[42:13] know, I I think I see it I'm trying to

[42:15] see it the way you see it that there is

[42:17] this opportunity to almost blank the

[42:20] canvas again and and to say let's try

[42:23] something. And the thing that's coming

[42:25] through so strongly for me particularly

[42:27] in the last year

[42:28] >> where I think we are are really in the

[42:31] kind of post postco era. I don't want to

[42:33] like touch the money and then we all get

[42:35] some sort of disease but you know it

[42:37] feels like we've emerged from that and

[42:39] and it does feel like people are less

[42:42] you know there was a time when people

[42:43] were quite scared what if I'm being

[42:45] accused of cultural appropriation what

[42:47] if I get this wrong what if you know I I

[42:50] don't teach in the exact way that

[42:52] whatever whatever guru told me to teach

[42:53] in

[42:54] >> I think and I hope we are getting past

[42:58] that and we are getting to the point

[43:00] where people are confident enough to

[43:02] say, "I'm teaching this because this is

[43:05] the way I like to teach it.

[43:07] >> It doesn't have to have some great

[43:09] historical significance. It can just be

[43:11] the way you like it.

[43:12] >> I'm teaching."

[43:13] >> Yeah. That's where the specificity pops

[43:14] back in again, right? Like I I know

[43:17] myself, I need 10 minutes of strength

[43:19] work and then because I've worked my

[43:20] muscles, I need to stretch. I don't have

[43:22] to talk about yoga history in that

[43:24] class. I don't have to reference yoga

[43:25] philosophy in that class. I'm not

[43:28] promising the world. I'm just being

[43:29] specific about what you'll get. And I

[43:32] find that helpful and some other people

[43:33] find that helpful. It doesn't have to be

[43:35] all things to all people all the time.

[43:38] >> Absolutely not. And and I mean look, I

[43:41] travel a lot and I practice those

[43:43] classes of yours pretty much all the

[43:45] time when I travel and I get like a bit

[43:46] annoyed when I see there's not a new one

[43:48] up. I'm like, why hasn't she uploaded

[43:50] another one? Come on. What am I supposed

[43:52] to do? But I mean I I think it's a

[43:55] revolutionary idea that you that you've

[43:57] come up with there. And I think that

[43:58] that is the future of yoga, bite-size,

[44:01] something we can do. It's so easy, you

[44:03] know, you hardly ever need equipment.

[44:04] I've done it in hotel rooms. I've done

[44:06] it without a mat. I've done it. You

[44:08] know, that that I think is the point is

[44:10] that I still feel like I'm getting

[44:11] something done. But also the specificity

[44:14] of it. This is what we are doing here.

[44:16] I'm not teaching you

[44:18] >> 5,000 years of history. I'm just

[44:20] teaching this little thing right now.

[44:22] And and maybe it can help you think

[44:24] about something deeper than yourself. Or

[44:26] maybe you just wanted to sweat for 20

[44:27] minutes. Now you've done that.

[44:29] >> Yeah. And I mean that's that's the

[44:30] challenge, isn't it? Is is

[44:33] >> when we set ourselves up with the

[44:34] pressure of I need to reflect my respect

[44:38] for yoga's cultural roots every time I

[44:41] teach.

[44:42] >> Yeah.

[44:43] >> You don't have really room to teach

[44:44] anything anything else really. Whereas I

[44:47] feel like you can be respectful and also

[44:49] say this small snippet that I'm offering

[44:52] is just this. It's not the everything.

[44:54] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[44:56] >> Yeah. Hopefully.

[44:57] >> And my challenge to students who who do

[44:59] say something along the lines of I want

[45:02] to show that I am honoring the roots or

[45:04] respecting the roots. My my follow-up

[45:07] question is always which roots.

[45:10] >> Which ones are you trying to respect or

[45:12] honor? Yoga is multifaceted,

[45:14] multi-storied. There isn't a single

[45:17] origin and there isn't a single thread.

[45:20] That's fine. I'm not saying now come and

[45:22] tell me about all the different roots.

[45:24] But you could just say what I'm trying

[45:26] to do here is teach some asa that were

[45:29] codified about 150 years ago. There's

[45:31] nothing wrong. You don't have to say

[45:33] that. But if you really want to say

[45:34] something, say the thing that's the most

[45:36] honest to what you're doing. And so I I

[45:39] find that that really gives people an

[45:40] anchor point. And and particularly as

[45:43] most of the teachers, let's be honest,

[45:44] most of our teachers today are women and

[45:47] most of the students they are teaching

[45:48] to are women. And really there's not a

[45:51] lot of link between women now and women

[45:54] doing anything involved in this culture

[45:55] historically. So

[45:57] >> we have to acknowledge that as well and

[45:59] say right the the the idea of women in

[46:02] yoga. It's now it's what we're doing

[46:03] right now. We are the woman in yoga.

[46:06] >> So that also gives people a sense of of

[46:08] belonging and being part of it and

[46:10] understanding that what we do in these

[46:12] rooms online in you know studio spaces

[46:15] wherever we are this is it. We're doing

[46:18] it. We're creating it. So, let's take

[46:20] some ownership of it and and let's think

[46:22] it through carefully.

[46:23] >> Let's have fun. I think I'm now in my

[46:25] fun era as well. So, you know, I feel

[46:28] like [laughter] we we need to have fun

[46:29] about it

[46:30] >> and not take it that seriously.

[46:33] >> I mean, seriously, but not that

[46:34] seriously.

[46:35] >> I think there's a difference between

[46:36] respect and and and seriousness. You

[46:39] know, treating something as important,

[46:40] but but holding it such a fragile grip

[46:43] that if you touch it the wrong way, it

[46:45] will shatter. there's room for curiosity

[46:47] and exploration and fun and different

[46:49] perspectives and different takes on

[46:50] things hopefully.

[46:51] >> And I think that's also part of it is

[46:53] we're teaching a lot of content. You

[46:54] know, a lot of my content is quite

[46:56] academic because that's my slant on

[46:58] things. It's historical. It's I'm almost

[47:01] like at the point where I'm describing

[47:02] it as a combination between like lived

[47:04] experience, personal histories. You

[47:06] know, I've done a lot of work on my own

[47:08] kind of ancestral lineages as far as I

[47:10] can get with the little that I know

[47:13] >> as well as, you know, I I'm not claiming

[47:15] that I only trace my history to the

[47:18] Indian subcontinent. I I will say over

[47:20] and over again, I'm an African. I was

[47:22] born here and I experience life as an

[47:25] African. So, I want to bring that in as

[47:28] well. that that is a huge part of who I

[47:30] am. And so it's it's a combination of

[47:32] that, the academic stuff, the fun stuff,

[47:35] the physical stuff. It's I'm trying to

[47:37] bring a lot of things together and and

[47:39] just to say to people whatever the

[47:41] subject matter. So this course is women

[47:42] in yoga. The subject matter is almost

[47:45] subsidiary to the fact that we're trying

[47:46] to have an experience together and learn

[47:48] something from each other. And that to

[47:50] me is the most important thing.

[47:52] >> Yeah. Yeah, I think you may not be the

[47:54] teacher with all the answers, but you

[47:55] are a teacher who always brings really

[47:57] good questions.

[47:59] >> I try. I try.

[48:01] >> Right. So, the course that you're doing

[48:02] for yoga medicine is the live online

[48:04] women in yoga teacher training. It's

[48:06] worth 12 hours of continued education.

[48:09] It kicks off November 5th and runs

[48:11] through to December 10th. And we will

[48:14] put a link in the show notes for people

[48:15] who want to check out the course. It

[48:17] sounds, as always with your stuff, it

[48:19] sounds like a fascinating journey and

[48:20] probably will take people in some

[48:22] unexpected directions.

[48:25] I hope so. Yeah, I really look forward

[48:26] to seeing how people experience this and

[48:28] also how they engage with the content.

[48:30] It's it's not a long course. It's 6

[48:32] weeks as you mentioned, 2 hours live

[48:34] online. I I encourage people to come

[48:36] live, but of course, you know, time

[48:37] zones are a thing. So, and because yoga

[48:40] medicine is so far reaching, of course,

[48:42] you can catch up on recordings. And I I

[48:45] think it will be a good kind of uh

[48:47] pallet cleanser to end off 2026 because

[48:50] we we resume in in early next year with

[48:53] um the history of yoga course again

[48:55] which will be you know that that is good

[48:58] dense solid material which which which I

[49:02] think really lays the foundation for

[49:03] people to to get a solid understanding

[49:05] of of yoga as it's moved through time

[49:08] and space and people and cultures. So, I

[49:11] think this is a nice way to kind of open

[49:12] that door. If if even if you're even

[49:14] curious, if you even think I'd like to

[49:15] know something a little bit about about

[49:17] something about yoga's history, this is

[49:19] a really good kind of way to step into

[49:21] it.

[49:22] >> I love it. Brilliant. Fose, thank you so

[49:24] much for taking the time to come and

[49:26] talk to us again. I always have fun

[49:27] talking to you.

[49:29] >> Thank you, Rachel. Thanks for having me.

[49:30] [music]

[49:31] >> Thank you.

[49:38] >> [music]

[49:38] >> Thanks for listening to Yoga Medicine.

[49:40] If you liked the show, be sure to

[49:42] subscribe and leave a rating and review

[49:44] on Apple Podcasts [music] or wherever

[49:46] you listen to podcasts. And if you got

[49:48] something out of this episode, [music]

[49:50] please spread the word and share it with

[49:52] a friend. You can find more information,

[49:55] articles, [music] trainings, and classes

[49:56] at yoga medicine.com. Check us out on

[49:59] social media as yoga [music] medicine or

[50:02] you can email us at info@yogmed.com.

[50:05] [music]

[50:06] Thank you for being part of our yoga

[50:09] medicine community.

[50:11] The content of this podcast is not

[50:13] medical advice and [music] is not meant

[50:14] to replace medical care. Please consult

[50:17] your healthcare provider to determine

[50:18] what is best for your unique healthcare

[50:20] needs. [music]

YM
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Yoga Medicine

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Women-in-yogaYoga-historyVedic-ritualAsana-originsCultural-appropriation

Tem perguntas?

Perguntas frequentes

In the Vedic period, women were required to be present at the ritual fire sacrifice but had to remain silent, so their role was one of presence rather than active ritual performance. Firdose Moonda also points out that physical postures were not practised for exercise in that era, since people were walking, carrying water and working. The asana most people practise today is about 150 years old at its oldest, so the movement practice and the ancient ritual world are very different things.
Moonda argues that the usual yoga story runs in a straight line from ancient India to the modern studio, and that the centuries in between, along with the women in them, are largely blank. She describes the common assumption that yoga was once male and is now mostly female, with the middle period left unexplored. Her course and podcast aim to fill those gaps with questions rather than fixed answers.
Sita is the wife of Rama in the Ramayana, written as an obedient and submissive ideal of a wife. After she is kidnapped by a demon king and rescued, her husband refuses to believe she remained faithful and sets her difficult challenges to prove it. Moonda uses Sita as one of the recurring female figures she teaches, to examine how epic women are characterised and what their struggles reveal.
The episode asks whether the yoga community has moved beyond fear-based accusations of cultural appropriation to genuinely honour yoga's roots. Moonda's ethical frame, as quoted in the episode description, is that the best part of freedom is allowing others their own freedom and respecting it even when you disagree. The conversation invites teachers to examine that standard in their own practice.
The Women in Yoga teacher training is a live online programme created by Firdose Moonda, running from November 5 to December 10, 2026. It grew out of a student's question during a 200-hour teacher training about how asana moved from Indian men to Western women and back. Details and enrolment are available on the Yoga Medicine site at yogamedicine.com/product/women-in-yoga-teacher-training-online/.
The episode includes a section on Indra Devi framed around asana moving West, placing her at the centre of how the physical practice travelled from India to the West. Moonda connects her to the broader arc from medieval devotion to the modern asana most people now practise. The episode goes into more detail than a summary can capture, so listening to the full conversation is the best way to follow her reasoning.
Moonda argues that yoga has no singular and straightforward history, and that ancient traditions cannot be viewed cleanly through modern eyes. She treats the gaps in the record as room to explore rather than simple errors to correct. The episode suggests that today's teachers and practitioners are actively shaping how the future history of yoga will be written.

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