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Inspiration

Why Smart People Freeze: The Emotional Logic of Decisions

Modern Wisdom
Modern Wisdom
Nov 2, 2026
9 min de leitura

De Chris Williamson

Assistir · 5

Most of us have sat with a decision that refuses to end: a job offer we keep rereading, a relationship we keep auditing, a business move we have modeled in a spreadsheet six times. In a long conversation on Chris Williamson's Modern Wisdom podcast, coach and entrepreneur Joe Hudson takes that familiar stall apart. His core claim is blunt. Decisions are not made by the spreadsheet. They are made to produce a feeling, and the logic we bring to them is mostly a tool for predicting which feeling we will get. Once you see that, he argues, the question stops being "which option is smarter?" and becomes "which emotional state am I trying to reach, and what am I afraid of feeling?" The talk covers the difference between choices and decisions, why intelligent people often struggle most, whether decisiveness can be trained, and how fear quietly deletes options before you ever weigh them. What follows is a standalone guide to his argument, built from what he actually says in the episode.

Leitura · 7 seções

Why Does Every Decision Matter More Than You Think?

Williamson opened the conversation by citing Alex Hormosi's line that the life you want is on the other side of a few hard decisions, and that the reason people are unhappy is that they are not making them. Hudson's answer was immediate: "It's everything." He described working with leaders who are growing billion-dollar companies, and his reduction of a business to its essentials. "Your business is only two things. It's the relationships that are held in the business and the decisions that you make." Capital, intellectual property, and everything else, he said, trace back to decisions that people made.

He then pointed to Jeff Bezos, whom he credited with saying that after building the biggest company in the world, his next company would aim to be the best decision-making company in the world. The anecdote is his evidence that decision quality is not a soft skill. It is the operating system.

The same logic applies to a single life. Hudson listed the decisions that shape it: whether to smoke, whether to build a company, whom to marry, how to stay married, how to fight. Then he drew the distinction that anchors the rest of the talk.

"So it's there's choices and there's decisions," he explained. A choice is something you do without thinking, like the turn you took on the way to the grocery store or the decision to call a friend. A decision is where you actually spend time on it. Knowing how to make good choices and good decisions, he said, is "all of life." The goal is not to deliberate over everything. It is to have fewer decisions and more choices that you can make well without strain.

Can You Train Decisiveness, or Is It Personality?

Williamson asked the obvious follow-up: is decisiveness a trait you are born with? Hudson's answer was a distinction that matters: "You can absolutely train decisiveness. I don't think it's a training, but it's a recognition." What changes is not a set of drills. It is your understanding of what is happening when you hesitate. "Once you really understand what's happening behind decision-making, then decisiveness starts to flow from that."

He framed this with the system one and system two model that Williamson raised, drawing on Daniel Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow. System two is deliberate and demands conscious attention. Over time, Hudson said, you train system two into system one, so that a carefully reasoned decision becomes the default response. Decisiveness, in this view, is what that automation feels like from the inside. You are not forcing yourself to be quick. You have learned what to reason about and what to let go.

The practical implication is that decisiveness grows with understanding, not willpower. If you can recognize why a particular choice feels hard, the hardness usually loosens. That leads to the question Hudson treats as central: why are some decisions hard at all?

Why Do Smart, Careful People Get Stuck?

Hudson's answer to who struggles most is not what you might expect from a discussion of intelligence. He first named the types people in society tend to label, then the thing underneath. The usual suspects are perfectionists and people who were criticized heavily as children. Beneath them is a common wiring: "people who were told that their value wasn't getting it right and it's really important for them to get it right." Add a tendency to fear consequences, and you get the pattern he described: "long prolonged SWOT analysis, you know, thinking thinking thinking, still thinking about it 6 months later."

He gave a concrete example. The person stuck in that loop is often asking a question that looks practical, like whether to marry someone or not, but the loop itself is driven by something else. The analysis is not really about the partner. It is about avoiding the feeling of having gotten it wrong.

This is why intelligence does not protect against indecision. A sharp analytical mind is an excellent engine for generating more considerations. If the underlying goal is safety from an emotional outcome, every new consideration becomes another reason to keep going.

Is Indecision an Emotional Problem or an Information Problem?

Asked directly whether decision-making is an emotional or informational problem, Hudson did not hedge. "100% an emotional problem." He acknowledged that a neuroscientist in the audience might quibble, and he made the precise exception: reflexes like jumping away from a snake bypass deliberation. But for consequential choices, the picture changes. Hudson cited a neuroscience book he had read, arguing that the emotional center of the brain is what makes decisions. He pointed to people whose emotional centers had been damaged. Their IQ stayed the same, he said, but their lives fell apart. They could spend fifteen minutes deciding what color pen to use or where to have lunch.

From there he made his central move. Consider the decisions you have made to feel loved, to feel valuable, to avoid feeling like a failure, dismissed, or rejected. "Right there is guaranteed 90% of your life." Seen this way, the idea that you can make a purely logical decision is, in his words, "absolute crap." It is "a great way to justify emotional repression," he said, but it is not how the brain works.

So where does logic fit? Hudson's answer is precise. Logic is used to forecast your future feelings. When you run a SWOT analysis on where to take a business or where to invest a million dollars, you are trying to figure out how you will feel under each option. He made the test concrete: suppose your deepest motivation is happiness, and someone you trust guaranteed that one option would make you happier. The analysis would collapse. If your motivation were meaning instead, the same logic applies. "Whatever that thing is you're going to do it, and all the logic is doing is trying to figure out how you're going to get to the emotional state."

"If you are scared to feel a certain thing, then a certain solution set in your decision-making is not available to you."

— Joe Hudson, on Chris Williamson's Modern Wisdom podcast

How Does Fear Shrink Your Options?

This is the most useful idea in the talk, and it is easy to underestimate. Fear does not only make you feel worse about options. It removes options from the table before you evaluate them. Hudson's example was a man at a bar who does not mind being rejected. "He'll go and hit on 10 women and they will have options that the person who's scared of rejection" does not have. The person who fears rejection has already decided, unconsciously, that they cannot tolerate that feeling. "I don't want to feel that. And then I make a choice because I don't want to get rejected to not hit on those women. I have no choice."

He extended the same pattern beyond romance. If you are afraid your boss will yell at you and make you feel small, you will not take certain risks at work, and the options involving those risks will never reach your analysis. That is why people who feel they are "deciding" are often just avoiding. The real decision was made earlier, by the feeling they were trying to escape.

The practical takeaway is an inventory. Ask which feeling you are working to avoid, and check whether that avoidance is quietly removing options you would otherwise consider. Hudson's framing makes the question less about whether you are brave and more about which paths your fear has already closed.

What Does Hudson Want Listeners to Do With This?

The episode runs past two hours and moves through a wide set of subtopics. The chapter list includes courage as a decision-making tool, the hidden trap of audience capture, why your principles matter more than you think, the emotions that control decisions, how to make conscious choices, how to face the biggest decision of your life, why change feels scary, and what actually makes a decision bad. It also covers reassurance-seeking, regret, and the costs of indecision. The episode description notes that Hudson distinguishes genuine intuition from fear that poses as intuition, a distinction worth hearing in full from him rather than from a summary.

Taken together, the throughline is consistent. Decisions are emotional at root. Logic is a forecasting tool for emotional outcomes. Fear narrows what you can even consider. Decisiveness is a form of recognition that grows as you understand your own patterns, not a personality trait fixed at birth.

Where to go from here

Start with the choice-versus-decision split. Over the next week, notice which choices you make without thought and which decisions you keep reopening. Pick one of the reopened decisions and ask Hudson's question directly: which feeling am I trying to reach, and which feeling am I trying to avoid? Then list the options your fear may have removed before you ever weighed them.

If you want to go deeper, watch the full Modern Wisdom episode, where Hudson develops the intuition-versus-fear distinction and the discussion of regret and reassurance at length. Hudson also has an upcoming course on decision-making, which the episode description links, for readers who want a structured version of this work.

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Transcript

[0:00] I want to talk about decision-m there's

[0:02] a line from Alex Hormosi that says the

[0:05] life that you want is on the other side

[0:07] of a few hard decisions and the reason

[0:09] that you're unhappy is because you're

[0:11] not making them. In your experience, how

[0:14] important is the skill of decision-m and

[0:17] guiding someone's life? It's everything.

[0:19] Like if you look at

[0:23] let's say like the one of the things I

[0:24] talk about when I'm working with

[0:27] leaders who are like growing

[0:29] billion-dollar companies is that your

[0:31] business is only two things. It's the

[0:33] relationships that are held in the

[0:35] business and the decisions that you

[0:36] make. Everything else can it goes to

[0:38] those two things. There's some capital

[0:40] you know there's potentially some IP but

[0:43] those came from decisions that people

[0:45] made. So it is for a business it's the

[0:48] critical thing. And if you look at um I

[0:51] think it was um founder of Amazon Jeff

[0:55] Bezos who said

[0:57] uh for my next company I want it to be

[1:00] the best decision-making company in the

[1:01] world. So a after somebody grew the

[1:03] biggest company in the world he then

[1:06] said my next company is going to be just

[1:09] really great at making decisions. That's

[1:11] how important it is for a company. But

[1:13] if you look at your life, well, what

[1:15] doesn't happen from a decision, right?

[1:18] Like if you're smoking cigarettes, if

[1:21] you are building a company, if you are

[1:24] getting married, who you're getting

[1:25] married to, how you stay married, how

[1:27] you fight, all these things are

[1:29] decisions that we make for for I think

[1:31] for the framework purposes. I think it's

[1:33] really important to separate

[1:36] what and this is this is the way I think

[1:38] about it. So it's is there's choices and

[1:41] there's decisions. So choices are just

[1:44] the things that you don't think about

[1:46] like right now you're sitting like this

[1:47] you never thought about it you just

[1:49] right and

[1:50] >> or the first question maybe you thought

[1:52] this is a great first question maybe

[1:54] you're like is that the right first

[1:55] question or is that the other is that

[1:56] the right first question

[1:58] >> if you are just making choices it means

[2:01] that you're not sitting there really

[2:02] spending time on it and so that I call

[2:04] that a choice and decisions is where

[2:06] you're really making spending time on it

[2:08] so knowing how to make great choices and

[2:11] great decisions is all of life like

[2:13] everything that you're going to end when

[2:15] you're at your grave. It's going to be a

[2:16] series of decisions that you made.

[2:18] >> So, I'd say super hyper critical. And if

[2:20] you can learn how to make great

[2:22] decisions, then you're going to make

[2:24] decisions that are going to make a great

[2:27] life.

[2:28] >> Can you train decisiveness or is it

[2:30] largely a personality trait?

[2:33] >> You can absolutely train decisiveness. I

[2:36] don't think it's a training, but it's a

[2:38] a recognition. there's some recognitions

[2:40] that can happen that allow for

[2:41] decisiveness.

[2:43] >> So once you really understand what's

[2:45] happening behind decision- making, then

[2:46] you can then decisiveness starts to flow

[2:49] from that. Like why why is it hard for

[2:52] people to make decisions? Why are some

[2:54] decisions hard to make?

[2:56] >> Why are some choices like I'm going to

[2:57] go to the grocery store. I took a left

[2:59] here. I'm calling my friend. Why we

[3:01] don't even think about those and why

[3:02] some are really difficult to make. And

[3:04] when you get that, when you understand

[3:05] that, then decisiveness becomes like

[3:09] there be less and less decisions, more

[3:11] and more choices, and the choice and the

[3:13] and the result is better and better. It

[3:16] feels to me like system one, system two

[3:18] thinking a bit from Daniel Carnean,

[3:20] thinking fast and slow. So the system

[3:22] two is very deliberate and you sort of

[3:24] have to pay a lot of cognitive attention

[3:26] to it and then over time you train

[3:28] system two into system one and the sort

[3:30] of carefully thought decision becomes

[3:32] the the default. What

[3:36] types of people

[3:39] >> tend to struggle with decisions the

[3:41] most? What's the avatar of the sorts of

[3:43] people who tend to be the most

[3:45] indecisive

[3:46] that have the toughest time when it

[3:49] comes to

[3:49] >> Well, I'll give you like what humans

[3:51] what most people in society would call

[3:53] them and then I'll tell you like the

[3:54] thing that's underneath, right? So, it's

[3:55] going to be people who are

[3:56] perfectionists, people who have been

[3:58] criticized a lot as children, people who

[4:02] um who were told that their value wasn't

[4:04] getting it right and it's really

[4:06] important for them to get it right. And

[4:08] people who are like have a tendency to

[4:11] be scared of consequences,

[4:14] >> those are the people that are going to

[4:15] have a hard time making decisions that

[4:17] they're going to be long prolonged SWAT

[4:19] analysis,

[4:21] you know, thinking thinking thinking,

[4:23] still thinking about it 6 months later.

[4:25] Should I marry them? Should I not marry

[4:27] them? That's that's going to be what's

[4:28] behind it for them.

[4:31] >> How much is decision-m an emotional

[4:34] problem and how much is it anformational

[4:37] problem? 100% an emotional problem.

[4:39] [laughter]

[4:40] So, so that's not that's not me. That is

[4:42] that is uh neurology. So, if you read a

[4:46] book uh called Dartzair

[4:50] 2020 2012

[4:53] um

[4:55] he wrote that the emotional center of

[4:59] the brain is what makes decisions. So

[5:01] there are people who have had the

[5:02] emotional center of their brain damaged

[5:04] and they cease to be able to make

[5:07] decisions. Their whole their IQ stays

[5:09] the same but their whole life falls

[5:10] apart because

[5:12] well what color pen should I use and 15

[5:15] minutes later they're still trying to

[5:16] figure out what color pen or where am I

[5:18] going to have lunch.

[5:19] >> Right? So there is just to be because

[5:22] there's some neuroscientist in in the

[5:25] audience who's going to be who's going

[5:27] to quibble with me. So, I'm going to

[5:28] There is a place where the emotional

[5:30] center of the brain doesn't make the

[5:31] decision, like if a snake comes at you

[5:33] and you jump away, then it bypasses

[5:35] that. But if you're trying to decide who

[5:38] to hire, if you're trying to decide what

[5:40] investment to make, no matter what your

[5:41] spreadsheet says, you're making a

[5:43] decision to feel a certain way. So, if

[5:46] you think about your life and you say,

[5:47] "How many decisions did I make to feel

[5:49] loved, to feel like, to feel valuable?

[5:51] How many decisions did I make to not

[5:53] feel like a failure, to not feel like a

[5:54] loser, to not feel dismissed, to not

[5:58] feel rejected? Right there is guaranteed

[6:01] 90% of your life. So that is actually

[6:04] how we make decisions neurologically

[6:06] speaking. That's how So the idea that

[6:08] you're going to make a logical decision

[6:10] is absolute crap. It like it it's a

[6:12] great idea and it's a and it's a great

[6:14] way to like justify emotional

[6:16] repression, but it's not true

[6:18] >> neurologically. So that's why I say it's

[6:19] 100% an emotional decision. Where logic

[6:22] comes in is logic says

[6:26] I'm going to logically try to figure out

[6:28] how I'm going to feel if I make this

[6:30] decision or how I'm going to feel if I

[6:32] make this other decision.

[6:34] >> So

[6:36] you a SWAT analysis of like where you

[6:38] should take your business, where you

[6:39] should invest a million dollars. And if

[6:41] I said to you and let's say your your

[6:43] number one motus apparandi was like was

[6:46] happiness and I said hey I guarantee and

[6:50] you believe me you'd be happier if you

[6:52] did this and you had that knowledge

[6:54] there's the swan analysis goes away

[6:55] doesn't matter maybe your thing is like

[6:58] a meaning like this will give you the

[7:00] most meaning okay I'm going to do that

[7:02] thing but whatever that thing is you're

[7:04] going to do it and all the logic is

[7:06] doing is trying to figure out how you're

[7:09] going to get to the emotional state.

[7:11] >> And so that's that's just the

[7:13] neurological reality of it. And it and

[7:15] it gives us the biggest clue on how to

[7:17] make great decisions.

[7:19] If you are scared to feel a certain

[7:22] thing, then a certain solution set in

[7:25] your decision-m is not available to you.

[7:27] >> Why?

[7:28] >> If I'm scared to be a loser, I'm not

[7:31] going to be able to take the same kind

[7:32] of risk. So you and I know the guy at

[7:35] the bar who doesn't mind getting

[7:37] rejected, doesn't mind that feeling of

[7:39] rejection.

[7:41] They'll go and hit on 10 women and they

[7:43] will have options that the person who's

[7:45] scared of rejection. I don't want to

[7:47] feel that. And then I make a choice

[7:49] because I don't want to get rejected to

[7:50] not hit on those women. I have no

[7:52] choice.

[7:54] >> It's and it's that in everything. I'm

[7:57] scared that my boss will yell at me and

[7:59] I will have to feel like a dweeb. I

[8:02] don't want to feel like a dweeb. So, I'm

[8:05] not going to say the thing to my boss

[8:07] and therefore that option is off the

[8:09] table.

[8:11] So, that that's that's really what's

[8:13] going on behind decision-m. So, if you

[8:14] can get to, oh, I love and this is going

[8:18] to sound weird to everybody, but like I

[8:19] I don't mind feeling rejected like that

[8:21] guy like I'm good with that. Even like I

[8:24] look forward to feeling rejected. I know

[8:26] that I'm winning if I have tried enough

[8:30] times, right? just like a hurdler who's

[8:33] like, I know if I practice enough, if I

[8:35] do enough reps, doesn't matter how many

[8:37] times I fail, I'm winning. Or if I say,

[8:40] oh, I I'm okay feeling like a dweeb. I'm

[8:42] okay embarrassing myself. I'm okay not

[8:44] looking good for a moment. Then I can

[8:46] make really clear decisions because then

[8:48] I'm making decisions based on my

[8:50] principles, based on what's most

[8:52] important to me, not based on a fear of

[8:56] of a consequence.

[8:59] >> Yeah. the

[9:02] your value or your option set gets

[9:04] constrained

[9:05] a lot if you're not prepared to face a a

[9:09] ton of emotions. James, business partner

[9:11] in Newtonic, used to work doortodoor

[9:13] selling like gas for NP power, which is

[9:16] like a a utility company in the UK and

[9:19] he needed, I think, two more sales

[9:21] before the end of the week in order to

[9:23] hit his target and not lose his job and

[9:25] he was getting all stressed about it and

[9:27] he spoke to his the team leader and the

[9:30] team leader said, "What's your sales

[9:33] rate? Like, how many doors do you need

[9:34] to knock on to get a sale?"

[9:36] >> Yeah.

[9:36] >> He said, "At the moment, it's one in

[9:38] 50." He says, "Okay, so if you do 100

[9:41] doors, you've hit your target. You just

[9:43] need to be rejected 98 times. If you're

[9:45] rejected 98 times, you've hit your

[9:46] target."

[9:47] >> Yeah.

[9:47] >> I always think about that frame.

[9:49] >> Yeah. I So I have it I have an even

[9:51] better I had a a barber

[9:54] still is my barber, but he doesn't give

[9:57] haircuts to very many people anymore.

[9:59] And the reason is is because we were

[10:00] sitting and I was looking at his

[10:01] paintings and I'm like, "Wow, man,

[10:03] you've got some amazing paintings." He's

[10:04] like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Well, are you

[10:06] in any galleries?" He's like, "No. And I

[10:08] was talking to him and I saw that fear

[10:10] of rejection. I said, "Hey, I'll tell

[10:11] you what I'll do. I'll give you I think

[10:13] it was$1 or $2,000. I'll give you $2,000

[10:15] if you can get 50 rejections in the next

[10:18] 60 days."

[10:20] >> $2,000 if you can get 50 rejections

[10:22] >> in the next 60 days.

[10:23] >> Okay.

[10:24] >> He couldn't get 60 rejections. He got

[10:26] two acceptances. And so now he's making

[10:29] a living selling his art.

[10:31] >> That's

[10:32] >> But the reframe was, you're not failing,

[10:35] you're winning.

[10:36] >> Yes. Yes. Right. So that's a hack. But

[10:39] the the the the deeper truth, right?

[10:42] >> So manipulative.

[10:44] >> It [laughter] was totally wasipulative.

[10:47] Yeah. It totally was. And for his own

[10:49] good and and and his art deserves to be

[10:52] out there. And but that's the the thing

[10:55] is like he wasn't scared of making

[10:58] $2,000.

[11:00] He was scared of the feeling of failure.

[11:02] >> It's a great frame. How do you come to

[11:05] think about decision-m then what are the

[11:07] component skills?

[11:08] >> Yeah. So, so the other thing to

[11:11] understand is like in that before I can

[11:13] go into that the the the

[11:17] decision like back to decisions and

[11:19] choices. So choices are often done

[11:22] because we have subconscious

[11:27] emotions that we don't want to feel and

[11:28] never gets into consciousness. Right?

[11:30] Like, so I'm going to smoke the

[11:31] cigarette so I don't have to feel the

[11:32] thing or I'm going to scroll so I don't

[11:33] have to feel the thing or I'm going to

[11:36] tell my wife I love her because that

[11:38] lets me feel the thing. Right? So that's

[11:40] one set of like how do you how do you

[11:42] make good choices? How do you make great

[11:44] decisions? The thing to understand I

[11:46] noticed the thing that like unlocked

[11:48] this for me around uh making decisions

[11:52] was that every time I was making a

[11:54] decision I was in fear. So

[11:59] if you are in fear, your brain does

[12:01] certain things. One of the things your

[12:03] brain does is it um goes black and white

[12:07] thinking like you become very binary.

[12:10] Should I take the job? Should I not take

[12:12] the job? Should I break up with the

[12:13] girl? Should I not break up with the

[12:14] girl? [gasps]

[12:17] It doesn't say, "Oh, I could talk to the

[12:20] girl and say, "This is what I need if

[12:22] we're going to stay together." It

[12:23] doesn't say I could buy the car or I

[12:26] could lease the car or I could buy the

[12:28] car that's a different color or

[12:31] whatever. So it doesn't see all the

[12:34] possibilities. It it it narrows things

[12:36] down into black and white thinking. The

[12:38] other thing that it fear does in the

[12:41] brain is that it creates a false end

[12:44] like okay so you make a bad decision so

[12:47] what like you get to make another one

[12:48] tomorrow and you get to make another one

[12:50] after that. Amazon is another another

[12:53] great example of Amazon. Make decisions

[12:55] fast if you can if you can pull them

[12:57] back. If you have if you can't then okay

[13:00] take a minute make your decision.

[13:01] >> Reversible decision.

[13:02] >> Yeah. Exactly. So so that's another one

[13:05] uh that that fear does to the brain. And

[13:09] so so that false end is like you don't

[13:13] see through the end like what's

[13:15] happening afterwards. And so that's why

[13:17] most people think of decisions as like

[13:20] what do I do about this decision? They

[13:22] don't think about decisions as a

[13:24] portfolio the way somebody who's running

[13:27] a hedge fund or in your stock account if

[13:30] you have one you're saying I don't need

[13:32] to get everything right. I just need to

[13:34] be principled about what I buy because a

[13:37] majority of them will work out. And so

[13:40] people are thinking this decision right

[13:42] now is really important instead of the

[13:45] portfolio of decisions that I'm going to

[13:46] make this year,

[13:47] >> final decision I will ever make.

[13:49] >> Right. Exactly. So, so and so that's how

[13:53] we know that we're in fear. Now, there's

[13:55] the the rare occasion where someone's

[13:56] like, I'm just going to really think

[13:57] through this and I'm okay. I've thought

[13:59] about it. I've collected data. This is

[14:01] what I'm going to do. Right? That's

[14:02] pretty rare. So, most of the people who

[14:04] are like, oh my god, I got to make a

[14:06] decision. What am I going to do? It

[14:07] means there's just a tremendous amount

[14:08] of fear that's going on under the

[14:10] surface. [gasps] And so one of the

[14:13] things to learn is that

[14:17] the fear is of a consequence. And if you

[14:19] go and you feel that consequence, you're

[14:22] going to make a better decision. So I'll

[14:25] give you an example of this. My wife and

[14:27] I have been married now 27 years. We've

[14:32] been married a long time, but I I've

[14:35] been married to

[14:37] three or four different women all with

[14:38] her name, right? She's been very she was

[14:40] very different at 27 than she was at 37

[14:44] than she was at 47. And and so there's

[14:48] been these moments in our life where

[14:52] the the the marriage is rough, like like

[14:54] what what are we doing? And I'm scared

[14:56] to lose her. So I'm I'm trying to make

[14:58] decisions to keep her, but I'm

[15:01] abandoning myself by doing that. I'm

[15:03] abandoning my principles. So both of us

[15:06] have come up with this this method where

[15:09] we basically just mourn the marriage

[15:12] because what I'm scared of is I'm going

[15:14] to lose her. So I'm I'm just going to

[15:15] assume I've lost her. I'm going to feel

[15:17] all that stuff. And then in feeling all

[15:20] that stuff, I'm not scared of it

[15:21] anymore.

[15:23] And then my response is, okay, this is

[15:26] who I am and I'm going to show up like

[15:28] that. And she shows up as who she is.

[15:29] And then we work out like how are we

[15:31] going to be together? Do we want to be

[15:32] together? What's going to actually go

[15:34] on? But that fear isn't there. And this

[15:37] is like an age-old

[15:39] process. So whether you are a stoic or a

[15:42] samurai or Tibetan book of living or

[15:45] dying, the way to overcome the fear of

[15:48] death is to actually visualize and feel

[15:51] the experience of death over and over in

[15:53] slow motion again and again. And then

[15:56] that's

[15:57] >> they includes like watching your own

[15:58] body decay and stuff. It's like even

[16:01] after you're dead, you're thinking about

[16:02] it

[16:03] >> because because you're going past the

[16:04] false end.

[16:06] >> Oh, right.

[16:07] >> That's why it's critical.

[16:09] >> Interesting. Right. It's the same thing

[16:10] if you're going to if you're going to

[16:12] like mourn your marriage, you go don't

[16:15] go to the moment of divorce. You go to

[16:17] like and then I'm lonely after and I

[16:19] can't find a woman and then you know,

[16:21] you do the whole thing

[16:22] >> and then and then

[16:23] >> and then and then and then and then I

[16:24] have a marriage again or then I'm you

[16:26] know, whatever it is. So,

[16:29] so overcoming your fear that way is a

[16:32] really critical thing because if you're

[16:33] having a hard time making a decision,

[16:35] it's not because you don't know what to

[16:37] do. Typically, it's because you're

[16:38] scared of a consequence and the

[16:40] consequence you're scared of is an

[16:42] emotional consequence.

[16:44] >> Correct.

[16:44] >> That is the episode. Like that's the

[16:47] that that's really lovely. That's a

[16:49] great a great summary.

[16:53] >> Why is it fear? Why is that the emotion?

[16:56] I understand that there's this sort of

[16:58] absolutist thinking. Uh I understand

[17:01] that creates a a a type of constraint

[17:04] which will cause panic. I also

[17:06] understand that if there's a kind of

[17:07] finality to things because you don't

[17:09] think that the life is going to continue

[17:11] beyond this decision and if you choose

[17:13] especially if you choose the wrong one

[17:14] or not

[17:15] >> um

[17:16] >> but why fear like why why is that the

[17:18] case why is that the emotion default

[17:19] >> yeah this is a great question because

[17:21] the fear is because the identity is

[17:23] going to get messed with right so like

[17:26] who do I think I am I think that I am a

[17:28] very successful person it's important

[17:30] for me to be a successful person so

[17:32] taking this job is really important the

[17:35] things that are really important to us

[17:36] are the things that define us and our

[17:38] identity. And so that's going to be a

[17:41] that's going to be where we're really

[17:43] important. And in some way, every time

[17:45] we're making a decision and we are in

[17:47] that fear-based decision-m process, it

[17:50] teaches us exactly where we're not

[17:53] principled in being ourselves.

[17:56] >> And so that's actually the antidote. So

[17:59] for instance, I have a set of principles

[18:01] that I make 80% of my decisions by. And

[18:04] I make them that way the same way that

[18:07] like um Berkshire Hathaway says this is

[18:10] what we invest in that it's not

[18:12] guesswork. It's like these things have

[18:14] to be true for us to invest.

[18:16] >> And I think right now they're sitting on

[18:18] like $230 billion because nothing is

[18:21] true enough to invest in. They're like

[18:24] it doesn't hit what we invest in. So

[18:26] we're just holding cash, right? And

[18:30] that was the case maybe like three

[18:31] months ago. I don't know where they are

[18:32] today. And um and so it's the same thing

[18:36] if I'll make a decision based on a set

[18:38] of principles

[18:40] of who I want to be in the world. And if

[18:45] I'm thinking about those principles, the

[18:46] way I think about the principles are

[18:50] if I have five, seven principles, do

[18:52] they

[18:55] do they get me where I want to go 80% of

[18:57] the time? Do they almost guarantee

[18:59] success over time? Not a single success,

[19:02] but over time. M

[19:04] >> and do they solve 80% of my problems?

[19:08] >> Can you give me an example of a

[19:09] principle? It doesn't necessarily need

[19:11] to be one of yours.

[19:11] >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Um I'll give

[19:14] you a decision-m principle we have our

[19:15] business, which is whenever we're

[19:18] building something new, we go to the

[19:21] thing we know the least amount about and

[19:23] we build it first.

[19:25] >> Give me an example. So, if I'm going to

[19:27] build a car and I know how to build a

[19:29] car, but I don't know how to build a

[19:31] catalytic converter, most people will

[19:33] build the car, then build the catalytic

[19:35] converter, and then go, "Oh [ __ ] the

[19:37] catalytic converter doesn't work inside

[19:39] this car. I'm going to have to rebuild

[19:40] part of the car." I'll say, "Let's build

[19:42] the catalytic converter first,

[19:45] and now I'll build the car around it

[19:47] because it's going to be a more

[19:49] efficient process."

[19:50] >> Why?

[19:50] >> Why is it a more efficient process?

[19:52] >> Why? Why do the hard thing first?

[19:54] because then I don't have to redo the

[19:56] car

[19:56] >> because I don't have to like

[19:57] >> how does that make how does that help

[19:59] with the decision? Like I suppose that's

[20:00] a principle. But in what way does that

[20:03] make the decision more likely to be

[20:04] successful?

[20:05] >> Right. So if we're Yeah. So the so uh

[20:08] the decision that if we're in the

[20:10] decision of we're going to build out a

[20:12] podcast for the first time,

[20:14] >> we're going to be more successful

[20:16] because we went to the thing we don't

[20:17] know and we've solved that first rather

[20:19] than do all the things we know and solve

[20:21] that later.

[20:22] >> Okay. Uh can you give me an example

[20:24] that's uh something from a personal life

[20:25] not a business life?

[20:26] >> Oh yeah. Yeah. So my I have a personal

[20:29] >> I have a personal this is actually the

[20:31] perfect one. I have a personal uh

[20:33] principle. So everything is an

[20:35] iteration.

[20:36] So what that means is the same thing

[20:38] that I was teaching to the barber which

[20:40] is failure isn't a thing. There's just I

[20:44] run experiments and I learn and then I

[20:46] keep on running experiments and I keep

[20:47] on learning and I keep on running

[20:49] experiments and then I learn. If I do

[20:51] that instead of thinking I fail or I

[20:54] succeed,

[20:56] I'm just like constantly learning, then

[20:58] I ultimately always succeed

[21:02] because I'm just running iterations

[21:04] until I figure the thing out. And

[21:05] there's a lot of neurology on this.

[21:07] There's there's something called the

[21:08] habenula and and it basically prevents

[21:12] us from failing inside of our brain.

[21:14] >> And it's basically the part of our brain

[21:17] that's in all invertebraes. I'm loosely

[21:19] speaking here that if a bear goes and

[21:23] fights for mating rights and they lose,

[21:26] it stops them from going, I'm going to

[21:27] go fight for mating rights again right

[21:29] now. Right? Like it it's it's the same

[21:32] thing in our brain that it's like when

[21:34] you're on a diet and you're like, I'm

[21:35] going to be on this specific diet for a

[21:36] while and you're like great for like 2

[21:38] weeks and then you eat that one piece of

[21:40] chocolate cake or whatever and then

[21:41] you're like, [ __ ] the diet and you're

[21:43] completely off. But you just ate one

[21:45] chocolate cake like so what? You just

[21:47] get back on the diet. We don't

[21:49] >> because that part of our brain is like

[21:51] we can't fail again. In my world, it's

[21:54] everything is an iteration.

[21:55] >> So what's the experiment I'm going to

[21:57] try? What's the next experiment I'm

[21:59] going to try? What's the next experiment

[22:00] I'm going to try? And they did this

[22:01] study with uh people who were I think it

[22:06] was like at the poverty line who lost

[22:08] weight successfully and all of them or

[22:11] not all of them but a grand percentage

[22:13] of them all were doing iterative

[22:15] mindset. They were all saying, "I'm just

[22:18] running a series of experiments until I

[22:20] find something that works." So for me,

[22:22] everything is an iteration. Everything

[22:24] is I'm trying. So we run we we do this

[22:27] in our business, but I do this in life.

[22:29] >> So I do something, it goes horribly

[22:32] wrong. I'm like, great, that was an

[22:33] iteration. What's the next iteration? Or

[22:35] I'm like, I have a big decision to make.

[22:37] I'm like, ah, well, just what's the

[22:38] simple iteration? I'm going to do that.

[22:40] >> Yeah. you've been, at least in your

[22:42] business, uh, impressively prepared to

[22:44] put stock in [ __ ] that I've told you to

[22:46] do.

[22:47] >> Oh, yeah.

[22:48] >> And I'm like, huh, you listen to me. And

[22:51] he not just listen to me, not just give

[22:52] me lip service or do the thing, say that

[22:55] he wants to do the thing and genuinely

[22:56] want to do the thing and then encounter

[22:57] some practical fear or some emotional

[23:01] barrier. Like I've said, hey, I think

[23:02] you should do this. I think we might

[23:04] have even talked about it last time on

[23:05] the podcast. you doing I wanted you to

[23:07] do basically the uh master coach

[23:09] critiques breakdowns emotionally of

[23:11] these things and these videos are

[23:13] ripping and you guys are doing like the

[23:14] you you [ __ ] it on a few of the early

[23:16] ones

[23:17] >> and had a couple of winners on the early

[23:18] ones and then changed it and changed it

[23:20] and now it's like

[23:21] >> it's [ __ ] awesome it's really good

[23:23] >> yeah and that's and so that's what

[23:24] that's exactly it and so that's the way

[23:26] it is with everybody in the company

[23:28] anybody wants to try and experiment as

[23:30] long as it's like within brand go

[23:33] >> as a matter of fact we actually have a

[23:36] criteria. Everybody who works for us has

[23:37] to run depending on where they are three

[23:40] to five experiments on how to do their

[23:42] job differently every quarter.

[23:44] >> Wow.

[23:44] >> So that's that's how deeply we take

[23:47] everything as an iteration. And it

[23:49] allows you to make mistakes. It allows

[23:51] you to learn. It allows you not to care

[23:53] so much. It allows you to have pace over

[23:57] getting it right. Most people will lose

[23:59] in life because they are trying to get

[24:03] it right rather than trying to keep a

[24:04] pace.

[24:06] >> It's like forward progress is more

[24:08] important than getting things right. I

[24:10] think the as you're explaining it, I'm

[24:13] noticing what's coming up in me is a

[24:15] reduction in the sense of grandeur about

[24:19] and and uh pressure around decisions

[24:22] like well I'm just you moving forward.

[24:24] you've removed the finality of this

[24:27] decision and also kind of baked into it

[24:30] that an experiment that doesn't prove

[24:32] the hypothesis isn't a failure. You did

[24:34] still learn something which is that

[24:36] hypothesis was wrong and we continue and

[24:38] continue. I'm sure you've heard

[24:39] >> and I'm never and I'm never done.

[24:40] >> Yes,

[24:41] >> I'm just going to keep on learning. And

[24:42] that's just one principle.

[24:44] >> Yeah. Tell me if this sounds familiar.

[24:46] You train regularly. You eat reasonably

[24:48] well. You feel fine, but you're just

[24:50] kind of going off vibes. Most people

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[25:40] That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdism.

[25:43] Uh, have you heard of GPS brain or the

[25:46] GPS principle? It's it's something not

[25:48] too dissimilar, which is if you are

[25:51] trying to get to a destination following

[25:53] Google Maps, when you miss the turn,

[25:56] Google Maps doesn't judge itself or you

[25:58] for you missing the turn. It just

[25:59] updates the route.

[26:00] >> Correct. GPS brain.

[26:02] >> Yeah, it's cool.

[26:03] >> Yeah. So, a cool So, there's this guy

[26:07] who was a I love this story. This guy,

[26:10] he was a surgeon and he was a dog

[26:12] trainer. And so in dog training, you

[26:15] have this little click that tells the

[26:16] dog you did it right. And you go click,

[26:18] click, click. And that just it's like a

[26:20] GPS brain. Click, click, click, click.

[26:22] So he's working with this um dog, his

[26:25] dog. He's pretty successful, but he

[26:28] loses his [ __ ] one day and just [ __ ]

[26:29] yells at the dog.

[26:31] >> Doesn't do the clicker, just yells at

[26:32] the dog. And the dog like goes back like

[26:36] regresses horribly. And so he's like,

[26:39] "Oh crap." Like that's what happens when

[26:41] there's any kind of emotional content

[26:46] in in his assumption is either good or

[26:49] bad. It's just like you did it right or

[26:50] you didn't do it right. GPS brain.

[26:52] >> So he goes to his surgeon students and

[26:54] he's teaching them like how to tie

[26:56] tendons and stuff and there's like a six

[26:58] press six thing problem and he starts

[27:00] bringing a clicker

[27:02] [laughter]

[27:05] instead of saying good job. You got it

[27:06] right. Don't do that. What are you doing

[27:08] here? and he just clicks when they get

[27:09] it right. And he improved the rate of

[27:12] their learning dramatically.

[27:14] >> No way.

[27:15] >> By having GPS brain. So that's another

[27:17] like, okay, if if everything is an

[27:20] iteration is a principle that gives me

[27:22] GPS brain, which is what it does,

[27:25] then it helps me be more successful. So

[27:28] now when I'm confronting a problem, what

[27:30] do I do about this? One of the

[27:32] principles I look at is everything's in

[27:33] iteration.

[27:34] >> What if everything's in iteration, what

[27:36] would that tell me to do? And this is in

[27:38] service of trying to improve the quality

[27:41] and accuracy of decisions but also rid

[27:44] that fear. Get rid of that fear. Not

[27:45] just feeling it. Not just going to the

[27:47] like reducio adabsium of the kind of

[27:50] mental projection. It's mostly this is

[27:53] who I want to be in the world.

[27:55] >> Do I want to be neurotically freaking

[27:57] out about each one of my decisions? Nah,

[27:59] I don't really want to be that. Does

[28:01] this work as to make me successful? Yes,

[28:03] it does. Is this like more comfortable

[28:06] and awesome? Yes, it is cool. That's a

[28:08] principle.

[28:09] >> Like I have another principle that is

[28:11] connection.

[28:13] It's you know we have the connection

[28:14] course but it's a principle. It means

[28:16] that if we build somebody we we how do

[28:19] we build them with connection? If I'm

[28:21] sitting here talking to you, how do we

[28:23] actually build connection? And over the

[28:25] years we've actually built connection.

[28:27] If I run a course, how do I make sure

[28:30] everybody feels like we're deeply

[28:32] connected with them and we really care

[28:34] about them because we do. and how do we

[28:36] help them find connection? And I have

[28:39] this video with Ali Abdal where I'm

[28:40] coaching him and we're having this

[28:42] moment where I was like, "Oh, you I

[28:44] don't not sure if I mentioned it's one

[28:45] of my things." I was just like, "Okay,

[28:47] let's go through all your business

[28:48] problem and look at it through the lens

[28:50] of connection.

[28:51] >> What would make you feel more connected

[28:52] to yourself and others as a solution?"

[28:54] And you could see him come up with like

[28:56] multiple solutions to the problem

[28:58] because he's just looking through the

[28:59] lens of that principle,

[29:00] >> right?

[29:01] >> And so it's the same thing. And so, so

[29:03] now I have a decision to make. Let's say

[29:05] like, do I go on the Chris Williamson

[29:06] podcast? And I'm like, everything's an

[29:08] iteration. Okay, I don't give a [ __ ] if

[29:10] I blow this. Like, why would I care?

[29:12] Okay, that's a one that's a and

[29:14] connection. Well, I I love being with

[29:17] Chris. This is something that makes me

[29:18] feel connected. I'm going to do it. And

[29:20] I get to connect with a lot of people.

[29:22] Yeah. Okay. And so, I'll just go through

[29:24] my principles. If I have a decision to

[29:26] make

[29:27] >> and I will,

[29:28] >> it feels like I mean, we haven't even

[29:29] got into the like the structure, but

[29:31] this seems really interesting to me. I

[29:33] know the idea of

[29:35] engineering bravery or courage in a way

[29:38] that this is like improving your bravery

[29:43] to some degree. It's increasing your

[29:46] preparedness to face scary things. When

[29:48] people think about bravery and courage,

[29:50] a lot of the time that's what it is.

[29:52] >> Uh so is bravery or courage are those

[29:55] words that factor into this at all? It's

[29:57] so interesting because as you say it I'm

[29:59] like yeah that's true but it's it's but

[30:02] it's not wasn't the thought process

[30:04] right so so the thought process was what

[30:07] are the thing how I can't control the

[30:10] outcome of a decision but I can control

[30:13] >> how I want to be in that decision-m

[30:15] process am I proud of how I made that

[30:17] decision that's the thing I can control

[30:20] so it came from that it came from like I

[30:22] think over a portfolio of decisions

[30:25] these principles are going to work and

[30:27] I'm going to be proud of them even if

[30:28] they don't work and if they don't work

[30:30] I'll iterate on the principles

[30:31] themselves right

[30:32] >> you know that from the outside somebody

[30:34] looking at you choosing to make

[30:35] decisions that are big or scary or

[30:37] difficult or whatever in that way would

[30:39] go wow

[30:40] >> that is brave very courageous that

[30:43] you've chosen to do there

[30:44] >> right so so then then then what happens

[30:46] so this is the cool thing so then you

[30:49] start making decisions that way and most

[30:50] of them are easy you're like okay I'll

[30:52] make it yeah that makes sense okay that

[30:53] makes sense and then there's one where

[30:54] it's like I don't want to [ __ ] do

[30:56] that. [laughter]

[30:58] There's nothing in me that wants to do

[31:00] that. But if I look at my principles,

[31:01] it's very clear that's what I'm supposed

[31:03] to do.

[31:05] >> And you look and you say, "Well, [ __ ]

[31:08] All I can say is that my principles work

[31:11] most of the [ __ ] time. And I can't

[31:13] come up with a better solution. So, I'm

[31:14] going to do it even though I don't want

[31:16] to do it." And you do it. And maybe it

[31:18] works. Most of the time it works.

[31:21] Occasionally it doesn't work. But every

[31:24] time you act on the principle, the

[31:26] courage there there's less and less

[31:29] courage required

[31:31] because you are positively reinforced

[31:33] that the principles work which means you

[31:35] trust them more in future.

[31:36] >> That's one. And the other one is because

[31:39] you are being who you want to be. So

[31:41] there is an implicit reward whether no

[31:43] matter how it works out.

[31:45] >> Yes. Yes. I'm showing up in the way that

[31:46] I want to. And if the choice was between

[31:50] showing up in the way that I want to and

[31:51] the decision going wrong and showing up

[31:53] in the way that I don't want to and the

[31:55] decision going right, a lot of the time

[31:57] people would actually prefer the former

[31:58] to the latter. I think I Margaret Cho,

[32:01] if I have her name right, she had an

[32:03] early standup. Like I'm saying how old I

[32:05] am, but she had an early I think it was

[32:06] her first standup and she was a comedian

[32:10] who had like an Asian sitcom

[32:13] and it failed. And her whole sitcom

[32:17] thing basically this one woman show is

[32:22] it failed. But that's not what hurt.

[32:24] What hurt was I abandoned myself and

[32:27] then it failed. I would rather have been

[32:31] true to myself and fail.

[32:32] >> Yeah.

[32:33] >> Than been fake and succeed.

[32:36] >> Have I taught you about audience capture

[32:38] before? Do you know this term?

[32:39] >> No. No.

[32:40] >> You I detest how afflicted you are with

[32:43] not being on the internet. [laughter]

[32:45] I require you to be more terminally

[32:47] online.

[32:49] [ __ ] infuriating. Um [laughter]

[32:52] uh Okay. So um audience capture is when

[32:56] a creator typically on the internet, but

[32:59] I'm sure it's happened with newscasters

[33:00] and and and people in late night shows

[33:02] and more traditional media as well, uh,

[33:04] begins to not create what they want to,

[33:07] but they create what they think that

[33:09] audience wants. So, it's referred to as

[33:11] throwing red meat to the audience. I get

[33:12] it. Very common and may have even been

[33:15] born out of the politics wing. If you're

[33:17] a political commentator, you know, you

[33:19] have your takes and your audience comes

[33:21] to you. Wow, that's an interesting take

[33:22] for the person that's on the left or the

[33:24] right or the whatever. and and then

[33:26] after a while you realize because you're

[33:28] looking at the popularity uh maybe the

[33:30] play count the positive reinforcement

[33:32] that you get oh when I talk in this way

[33:35] about this kind of subject from this

[33:37] lens people seem to give me more

[33:39] positive reinforcement and over time you

[33:41] like pavlovianly consition yourself into

[33:45] this type of behavior what's interesting

[33:47] about this

[33:48] >> is it's almost like a looking glass

[33:51] creator

[33:52] >> Wow

[33:52] >> here

[33:53] >> yeah it's [ __ ] cool Yeah, I have a

[33:55] lot of thoughts here.

[33:56] >> Um um what you the thing that's one

[33:58] interesting wrinkle is

[34:01] >> it's not what the creator knows the

[34:04] audience wants, it's what the creator

[34:06] thinks that the audience wants,

[34:08] >> right?

[34:08] >> And people don't always know what they

[34:10] want, right?

[34:10] >> Which is interesting. Like what's that

[34:12] Henry Ford line? If I asked the customer

[34:13] what he wanted, he would say a faster

[34:15] horse. Yeah. Yeah.

[34:16] >> Um so that that's that's one interesting

[34:19] thing. And then you roll the clock

[34:20] forward a little bit. You know, roll the

[34:21] clock forward six months, one year, a

[34:22] couple of years. this creator is now out

[34:25] of touch with their taste uh because

[34:27] they haven't created something from

[34:28] themselves for a very long time. Yeah.

[34:30] They are kind of marionetted or puppeted

[34:33] by the audience, but their projection of

[34:36] the audience, which means they don't

[34:37] actually know what they want. They're

[34:39] just kind of trying to do something that

[34:40] they think that they want.

[34:41] >> Yeah.

[34:42] >> And this is the kind of penicious thing.

[34:44] If the audience stops loving the work

[34:48] that you do when you compromise yourself

[34:51] in order to serve them,

[34:52] >> yeah,

[34:53] >> you will resent them so quickly because

[34:55] you say, "How can you not love me? How

[34:59] can you not appreciate what I'm doing?

[35:01] Look at what I did for you. I even

[35:03] pushed myself to the side." Right.

[35:05] >> Right. I shunted myself to the side of

[35:07] my own work just to serve you. And I'm

[35:09] sure you got lots of things, but the one

[35:10] final bit on top.

[35:12] >> Yeah. Uh Ethan Strauss wrote this

[35:15] [ __ ] outstanding article and it's

[35:17] called criticism capture is more

[35:18] dangerous than audience capture. He

[35:20] wrote it about three or four years ago.

[35:21] He's a sports reporter but he thinks

[35:22] about audience dynamics and like like

[35:24] creative dynamics too. What he basically

[35:27] said is he thinks that it's the

[35:29] criticisms not the compliments that are

[35:30] more deranging to people. And when you

[35:33] see this you actually realize that many

[35:36] people are criticism captured not just

[35:38] audience captured. So there's two things

[35:39] going on. They protect themselves from

[35:43] the potential negative. They do it by

[35:45] being more inflammatory, by being more

[35:47] aggressive, by sort of like the the guy

[35:49] outside that flares his lats outside of

[35:51] the nightclub. Or they do it by uh

[35:54] neutering themselves, by sort of staying

[35:56] small and milk toast and and always

[35:57] sitting on the fence and never actually

[35:59] staking a claim in the ground. Maybe

[36:00] they do it by always caveatting, by

[36:02] always having some sort of equivocation

[36:03] before they speak, so that every single

[36:05] potential in negative permittation of

[36:08] what they were going to say is already

[36:10] being put out there. Uh there's a lot of

[36:12] ways that they can do this, but um you

[36:14] see some people that are more um

[36:16] positive reinforcement

[36:19] uh compelled. Yeah. Uh and then you see

[36:22] some people that are more negative

[36:23] reinforcement compelled. And the perfect

[36:24] example, and I think that this is true,

[36:25] and it's the canonical example that's

[36:27] used by Ethan in his article about

[36:28] criticism capture. It's Jordan Peterson.

[36:30] >> Yeah.

[36:31] >> Is very criticism captured. And you see

[36:34] how warping and that man had apart from

[36:37] perhaps like Trump and Tate, but whilst

[36:40] not being a Tatian, Trumpian kind of

[36:42] individual. Uh

[36:44] >> a volume of criticism that almost no one

[36:46] in history has had to deal with, right?

[36:49] Outside of like [ __ ] leaders of

[36:50] countries and [ __ ] like that. And um Who

[36:53] would be able to deal with that? Almost

[36:55] nobody. But I do think it's a fair

[36:56] comment to say that criticism did some

[36:58] [ __ ] warping. So, audience capture

[37:01] criticism capture some new ideas for

[37:03] you.

[37:03] >> Yeah, I love there's so much stuff. The

[37:05] first tangential thought I have is like

[37:11] it it it also creates the creation of

[37:14] porn-like entertainment.

[37:16] >> Oh, this is George Mac's idea. You run

[37:18] enough split tests and you end up with a

[37:19] porn website.

[37:20] >> Yeah.

[37:20] >> This is George's idea.

[37:21] >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's [ __ ]

[37:23] wonderful.

[37:24] >> It's like I'm going to if you're red

[37:26] meeting your audience, I'm going to give

[37:27] them more and more emotional like this

[37:29] is happening on our news and everything

[37:31] like that. I'm going to give them more

[37:32] and more emotional hotness and but I'm

[37:34] going to desensitize them so much as I'm

[37:36] doing it that the the only thing that's

[37:38] left is like hate and Yeah. So

[37:42] >> most base most inflammatory.

[37:44] >> Yeah. Uh so so it's an interesting

[37:47] thing. It's like audience capture

[37:49] leading to the destruction of your

[37:52] audience.

[37:53] >> The pornification of everything

[37:54] >> and the destruction of your audience,

[37:55] which is like fascinating.

[37:58] >> Um, the second thought process that I

[38:00] had there is like this isn't just

[38:02] creators. This is life. This is how

[38:05] people operate in a in a in a business

[38:10] with their boss. And did I make them

[38:11] happy? Did I make the people around me

[38:13] more pleasure and less pain? Yeah.

[38:14] Exactly. And that's doesn't make good

[38:17] decisions.

[38:18] Like if at if they at the end of the day

[38:21] if you look at somebody who's been doing

[38:23] that they either their business or their

[38:28] audience or their personhood has dropped

[38:31] off of a cliff somewhere along the line

[38:33] whether that is

[38:36] in Jordan's case uh anxiety like deep

[38:39] anxiety or um you know you become the

[38:43] person that you hate or you have the

[38:44] resentment it doesn't actually lead to a

[38:47] successful

[38:48] But if you're principled, if you're

[38:50] saying these are the principles, and

[38:52] this is true for companies, too.

[38:54] Somebody who's principled about what

[38:56] they're doing, it doesn't mean that

[38:57] they're not listening and they're not

[38:58] reacting. But if they're principled

[39:00] about what they're doing, if they're

[39:01] like this is our brand, and we don't

[39:02] stray from the brand, or this is what

[39:04] we're here to do. This is our mission.

[39:05] We're not strained from the mission. We

[39:07] might find 20 ways to get it done, but

[39:09] we're not strained. These are our

[39:10] principles. Those people have a much

[39:12] longer lasting success without the

[39:14] burnout, too. And it's the same with a

[39:17] human in life. Like if you look at the

[39:20] people who are 70 year old 70 years old,

[39:22] have done something significant and are

[39:24] happy, they're almost always have lived

[39:27] a pretty principled life. You might not

[39:29] agree with their principles, but they've

[39:31] lived a pretty principled life.

[39:32] >> Does this mean that we need to canonize

[39:34] our principles before we can start

[39:35] making good decisions?

[39:37] >> I don't think before, but it's super

[39:39] freaking useful. Okay. So, we have a we

[39:41] have a we have a course called the great

[39:42] decisions course and that is

[39:44] >> which everyone needs to get ready to

[39:45] sign up for because it's in January.

[39:47] >> January. January sells out usually in a

[39:49] day.

[39:50] >> [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. Get ready.

[39:52] >> Yeah.

[39:52] >> Um

[39:53] >> Yeah.

[39:54] >> Yeah. Does this mean Okay. Process

[39:56] component skills.

[39:56] >> So, that's one of it. Yeah.

[39:57] >> Decision- making. Does that mean that is

[39:59] that one of the first things to do? I

[40:01] mean, you're not going to stop making

[40:02] decisions be like I'm going to put all

[40:04] decisions in a holding pattern, right?

[40:05] No. No.

[40:06] >> Including what pants I'm going to wear

[40:07] today up until the point at which I've

[40:08] done my principles.

[40:09] >> Yeah. So one of the things you can do is

[40:11] just start looking at the decisions you

[40:12] made in the last year and say what are

[40:13] the principles I've actually lived by am

[40:15] I am I proud of those and are they

[40:17] working

[40:17] >> might be a ugly reflection

[40:19] >> yeah for a lot of people it is but yeah

[40:21] so two main components of great

[40:23] decision-m and great make making great

[40:26] choices is can I become comfortable with

[40:30] all sorts of emotions so that I have my

[40:33] my set of solutions available to me

[40:36] >> and the other talk to the girl in the

[40:38] bot

[40:38] >> right and the Other one is what are the

[40:41] principles that I want to live by that

[40:43] are going to

[40:45] lead me to success that are going to

[40:47] solve most of my problems for me if I

[40:49] just live by my principles.

[40:51] >> And those two things are going to be

[40:53] incredibly like that's a a huge portion

[40:55] of the work.

[40:57] >> Yeah. That that's really

[40:59] >> I imagine that's going to be hugely

[41:00] disappointing to a lot of people that

[41:02] they were expecting to have some lovely

[41:04] framework for how to bypass having to

[41:06] feel things or having to face things.

[41:08] It's saying, "No, no, no, no, no, no.

[41:10] What's the flowchart that I follow in

[41:11] order to make sure that my decision

[41:13] doesn't require me to encounter any

[41:14] negative emotions?"

[41:16] >> Yeah. So, here's here's a here's the

[41:19] coolest thing. This is one of the things

[41:20] I get to see in my work so much. This

[41:24] and I and they're going to hate this

[41:25] even more,

[41:26] >> right?

[41:27] >> I'll give you the example that just

[41:28] happened recently. My daughter is

[41:30] applying for colleges and she's like, "I

[41:33] don't know what to write the essay on.

[41:34] The essay is so important. This is a big

[41:36] thing." fear, black and white thinking.

[41:38] I can't do this. I can't do that. I'm

[41:40] just watching her say. And I was like,

[41:43] "Hey babe, [ __ ] them. [ __ ] what the

[41:47] colleges say. [ __ ] what everybody says.

[41:50] [ __ ] like what the [ __ ] Like who the

[41:53] [ __ ] are them? Like be you. What the

[41:55] [ __ ] do you want?" And she's like, "What

[41:57] do you like? What's going on?" You know,

[41:58] >> why you [laughter] swearing?

[42:00] >> Exactly. And I'm like, I see how angry

[42:02] you are at this whole thing that you

[42:04] have to prove yourself to people. like

[42:06] this is [ __ ] Go get angry for me.

[42:08] Like and we have a thing in our house

[42:10] where anger is like so she gets out the

[42:12] tennis racket. She gets the thing

[42:14] >> and I'm [snorts] I'm like in Nepal at

[42:16] this moment, right? And she's at home

[42:18] and

[42:18] >> Oh, you're doing this virtually.

[42:19] >> I'm doing this virtually. Yeah.

[42:20] >> Wonderful. So you're uh uh cursing uh

[42:24] your other half to you're subjecting her

[42:26] to like the hearing. [laughter]

[42:28] >> She doesn't do it in front of me. Okay.

[42:30] >> And so she she's like, "Okay, I got it.

[42:33] I'm going to go get angry." And she

[42:35] calls me the next day. She's like, "I've

[42:36] already written three essays.

[42:39] I have all these ideas. They they're not

[42:41] quite good enough. They're not what I

[42:42] want to be yet, but I'm still writing.

[42:44] This is great. I have to get angry

[42:45] again." And a dozen times during the

[42:50] decisions course, easily in a week,

[42:52] you'll see somebody do that. You'll see

[42:54] somebody who had a massive decision they

[42:56] couldn't make and it was just an emotion

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[43:57] That's li i v m o m n o.com/modernwisdom

[44:02] and modernwisdom at checkout. What are

[44:05] the most common emotions that

[44:08] people encounter when it comes to that?

[44:10] They're stuck with a

[44:11] >> anger, fear, and grief. Sadness. Yeah.

[44:15] sometimes helplessness.

[44:17] Yeah. The some of the really like

[44:19] hardcore decisions. But the but the

[44:22] underneath that emotional content is

[44:26] like the identity breaking, right? So

[44:28] with my daughter there was like she had

[44:30] to let go of this identity of being the

[44:32] smart one of the straight A student of

[44:35] the one who can get anything she wants

[44:37] done done. She had to say I'm going to

[44:39] be myself

[44:41] and people can accept me or not accept

[44:43] me. And that was her anger. Her anger

[44:45] was, "Fuck you. Like, I don't care if

[44:47] you judge me. If it's if your if your

[44:49] school can't see me, go [ __ ] yourself."

[44:52] >> This keeps on sounding like bravery and

[44:54] courage. Like that's the words. And

[44:56] maybe my conception of bravery is is

[45:00] tied up in indecisions more closely than

[45:02] it should be. But like you hear that and

[45:04] you say, "Hey, this place is going to

[45:06] take me or it's not going to take me."

[45:07] and I'm a 17, 18 year old girl and you

[45:10] know it's a big deal and all of my

[45:11] friends are going to have things to say

[45:13] if I don't get into college or whatever

[45:15] and I don't care. I'm just going to do

[45:18] the me thing. Like that level of it it

[45:22] from the outside it seems like self

[45:23] assuredness, self-esteem, self-worth,

[45:25] confidence, resilience,

[45:28] >> bravery, courage. It's like all of these

[45:30] things wrapped up.

[45:31] >> It doesn't feel like it in the moment.

[45:33] I'm with you cuz I'm like yeah, yeah,

[45:35] that's true. I can't I can't deny it.

[45:36] But in the moment when you're doing it,

[45:38] it feels like

[45:41] I'm being honest.

[45:44] >> So it doesn't feel like [ __ ] There is

[45:46] that moment of like, oh my gosh, cuz

[45:48] there is like the I'm stepping into a

[45:49] bigger room. There's like, oh my god,

[45:51] I'm getting on stage and I'm doing this

[45:52] thing. There is that excitement that

[45:55] comes along with it. So you feel the

[45:57] excitement, but mostly you feel like

[45:59] honesty,

[46:01] >> right? Because we we know what it feels

[46:03] like when we compromise ourselves. It

[46:06] doesn't feel good. Like it like there's

[46:09] a way to say it takes a lot of courage

[46:10] and bravery to feel like you're

[46:12] compromising yourself. That feels like

[46:14] far worse than

[46:17] feeling like you've done the right thing

[46:18] and been rejected.

[46:20] >> Alex has a line where he says, "Fear is

[46:21] an inch deep and a mile wide." That when

[46:24] [laughter]

[46:26] >> That's so good. Hold on. That's so good.

[46:29] That's so good. That is so freaking

[46:31] good.

[46:32] >> Yeah.

[46:32] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. looking out over this

[46:34] massive lake and you, oh my god, how am

[46:36] I ever going to be able? It's so

[46:37] terrifying. You go like,

[46:39] >> "Oh,

[46:40] >> it's a little splash."

[46:41] >> That's right.

[46:41] >> You go, "Oh, fuck."

[46:42] >> Right.

[46:43] >> It wasn't that bad. And I mean, he he

[46:45] So, I don't know how much you know about

[46:47] Alex. I It would be wonderful to

[46:48] introduce you to at some point. Um,

[46:51] >> he I I'm I have enough internet to know

[46:54] who he is.

[46:55] >> Oh, impressive. Wow. He's broken. He's

[46:57] really reached escape velocity.

[46:58] [laughter]

[46:58] Holy [ __ ] I I I mean I geek out on

[47:01] business content, so there's that.

[47:03] >> And and I actually really appreciate I

[47:06] appreciate how straightforward he is

[47:07] >> very much so. So the straightforwardness

[47:09] I think um is one of the things that I

[47:11] appreciate about him and we were talking

[47:14] about

[47:15] >> maybe over dinner or maybe it was on the

[47:16] pod about um the first time he had to

[47:19] make a really difficult decision and

[47:21] he'd done the

[47:23] classic college I will be son of a

[47:26] Middle Eastern father success

[47:28] >> right

[47:29] >> path and then he realized that he wanted

[47:31] to start a gym and the Middle East was

[47:34] he from Iran yes

[47:35] >> you know I lived there Why?

[47:38] >> Because my dad

[47:40] >> you were in Iran for a

[47:41] >> when the revolution happened. Yeah.

[47:42] >> And then that was when you left.

[47:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[47:45] >> Holy [ __ ]

[47:46] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[47:46] >> Does that feel strange now watching so

[47:48] much of the world center around Iran? A

[47:50] place that you know you knew quite well.

[47:52] >> Yeah. There's a grief in it for sure

[47:54] because like the people of Iran are

[47:56] beautiful people. They were like an

[47:58] incredibly beautiful people.

[48:00] >> So there's a lot of grief around that.

[48:02] >> Yeah. So, Iranian father and and and

[48:04] with all of the accutrants that come

[48:06] along culturally.

[48:08] >> Um, and

[48:10] yeah, Alex sort of tells this story. I

[48:12] was on track to do this thing and then I

[48:14] move I start I start gyms and I have to

[48:16] tell my father and my you know, all I've

[48:18] wanted to do is kind of impress my

[48:20] father at some point. Um, and he says

[48:22] from the outside that looks like an

[48:23] incredibly brave decision. But the way

[48:24] that Alex made that first decision was

[48:26] he drove across the country before he

[48:27] rang his dad. He literally essentially

[48:30] went from coast to coast to put himself

[48:32] a few thousand kilometers away before he

[48:35] was prepared to pick up the phone. And

[48:38] one of the things that I'm sure you'll

[48:39] resonate with is

[48:40] >> beautiful

[48:41] >> when you're faced with a difficult

[48:44] conversation or difficult decision or

[48:46] whatever especially conversation uh and

[48:51] you're worried about it and you're

[48:52] thinking about it and you're ruminating

[48:54] and thought looping about it and then

[48:56] you do it. fear is an inch deep and a

[48:58] mile wide and you step in, you realize

[49:00] it's not. Soon as you do that first one,

[49:03] you go, "All right, [ __ ] who else is

[49:05] on the chopping block? Like, what else

[49:06] can I do?" And you like, you go from

[49:08] having,

[49:09] >> I don't know, being a bow hunter who's

[49:11] taking forever, very carefully, to wait

[49:14] to release the thing, and as soon as you

[49:16] release it, the bow sort of turns into a

[49:17] beltfed M140 machine gun, [laughter] and

[49:20] you're like,

[49:22] um, it's just interesting the way that

[49:24] the momentum thing works with that. And

[49:26] I think that you mentioned this before

[49:27] that there's kind of a breakthrough

[49:28] moment and then it kind of tumbles

[49:29] downhill but without spiraling off into

[49:32] that and also there's just to say this

[49:35] there's like also a long-term short-term

[49:37] effect on bravery because the fear is

[49:39] got that false end. The other thing

[49:41] that's occurring is

[49:44] like

[49:47] if you're doing the thing that is true

[49:50] to you over time every time you will

[49:55] have a life that's true to you

[49:58] because the things that aren't true to

[50:00] you are going to be failures. The things

[50:01] that are true for you are going to be

[50:03] successes. like you're going to create a

[50:06] life that's organized around who you are

[50:08] instead of who you're pretending to be

[50:10] or who you're trying to be or who you

[50:12] want people to think you are.

[50:16] >> And so shortterm making a decision that

[50:19] compromises might work to get your

[50:22] immediate need met, but it's not going

[50:24] to work for creating a life that

[50:26] actually is suited for who you are

[50:29] essentially. M

[50:31] >> and like I think Alex is a great example

[50:33] of this like

[50:35] he is like I am going to be me period as

[50:39] well as much as my consciousness knows

[50:41] who I am that's who I'm dedicated to and

[50:43] he's created a life that is for him that

[50:45] works for him well regardless of whether

[50:48] or not you like him or don't like him or

[50:51] I think even a a

[50:54] maybe might be wrong you might tell me

[50:56] I'm wrong maybe a better example than

[50:59] Alex is Donald Trump because it's

[51:01] somebody who has an obvious lot maybe an

[51:04] even more obvious uh number of reasons

[51:07] to not be the person that he's being.

[51:10] >> Uh if that makes sense.

[51:11] >> Yeah, I see what you're saying. Right.

[51:13] >> That like the price of being Donald

[51:14] Trump is quite high. Somebody else

[51:16] that's actually probably less

[51:18] triggering although maybe similarly

[51:19] triggering is Sam Harris. So I think a

[51:21] lot about Sam Harris when I think about

[51:22] this. Um,

[51:24] people regularly accuse Sam of uh

[51:28] flip-flopping on his beliefs, of not

[51:32] being uh logically consistent in some

[51:35] way that they see that they think that

[51:36] he doesn't see, whatever. Um, but the

[51:40] reason that I've always had a good bit

[51:41] of faith that he is doing what he

[51:45] believes is that he pays an incredibly

[51:46] high price for the positions that he

[51:48] takes. How many people do you know that

[51:49] are anti-Trump but also anti-woke that

[51:52] are uh like anti-Islam but also prone uh

[51:56] like nationalized healthcare that are

[51:58] from the left but are concerned about

[52:00] people coming across the board like it's

[52:01] a very nonfgeible like unique

[52:04] construction right it's very

[52:05] idiosyncratic and I go okay and for each

[52:07] of those every time he goes on one side

[52:09] of the fence and then back over to the

[52:11] other he pisses off both sides and I go

[52:13] in order to arrive at that kind of

[52:15] outcome

[52:16] >> to me it

[52:18] If you were just doing it in order to

[52:20] feed red meat or to like placate

[52:22] yourself for the world in some sort of a

[52:24] way, you wouldn't choose that. Those

[52:26] wouldn't be the decisions that you go

[52:27] for because it's like deranging

[52:30] >> to everybody else is confused about what

[52:32] So, if that makes sense, the

[52:35] >> more the higher the price that someone

[52:36] pays for the positions that they hold

[52:38] and the less that you can predict what

[52:41] their next opinion is going to be.

[52:43] Basically, if I if I know one of your

[52:45] opinions and can accurately predict

[52:46] everything else that you believe, you're

[52:48] probably not a serious thinker, right?

[52:50] >> And uh I find that that's not

[52:52] necessarily the the case with those

[52:54] guys.

[52:54] >> Yeah. And I think that they those are

[52:56] some extreme examples. I I also see that

[52:59] there are people who are living, you

[53:01] know, regular lives that are saying, I'm

[53:04] going to be true to myself, and they end

[53:06] up with a life that's actually true to

[53:08] them. Mhm.

[53:09] >> And it doesn't it doesn't mean that they

[53:11] have to be like committed to something

[53:14] that pisses people off.

[53:15] >> Yep. Yep. Yep. The bravery show up in

[53:17] mundane and very boring normal ways

[53:19] every single day.

[53:20] >> Exactly. But there are going to be

[53:21] moments for those people where they are

[53:23] going to go, I don't want to do it, but

[53:26] it's the right thing to do.

[53:28] >> Okay. What What else is there to say

[53:29] about breaking down those component

[53:31] skills that that we haven't covered so

[53:33] far?

[53:33] >> Yeah. So the on the choice side of

[53:36] things that's really important is

[53:40] to slow down. So this is where you get

[53:42] into the world of habits.

[53:45] The underlying principle is that your

[53:46] identity is still at stake, right? So

[53:48] you still have to work through the

[53:49] identity piece, but but the other piece

[53:53] is to really be able to slow down the

[53:55] emotional process that's happening there

[53:58] and be present with it in one way or

[54:00] another. So if you are

[54:06] um trying to quit coffee as an example

[54:08] because your coffee somehow you decided

[54:11] is bad for you. Um

[54:14] what [laughter]

[54:15] what you should do instead is reach for

[54:17] a new tonic. Uh

[54:19] >> yes sound like a true investor.

[54:22] >> Um

[54:26] you have like a series of habits that

[54:28] are going to trigger that desire for the

[54:30] coffee. It's going to be an unconscious

[54:32] reach for the coffee when you drink it.

[54:35] Can you actually be totally present?

[54:38] What's the emotion that's happening

[54:39] before you drink the coffee that makes

[54:41] you want to drink the coffee that you

[54:42] get after the coffee to slowly unpack

[54:46] that experience and start noticing what

[54:49] you're avoiding or trying to run into.

[54:51] >> So, this is kind of unwinding current

[54:53] choices to become decisions in a way.

[54:56] >> Yeah. Yeah. I would say making turning

[54:59] choices into conscious conscious

[55:01] choices.

[55:02] >> Yeah. And and so that's a really

[55:04] important skill set if you want to

[55:06] change kind of the habitual choices that

[55:08] you're making

[55:10] >> which is there's lots of tricks and and

[55:14] James Clear is amazing at what he writes

[55:16] for all the tips and tricks but one of

[55:19] the key ones on the emotional level

[55:21] because the decisions are being made

[55:23] emotionally is can I slow down unpack

[55:26] and feel the stuff that I don't want to

[55:28] feel that drives me into some bad

[55:31] habits. It comes back to awareness. Yes.

[55:33] >> Again. Yes.

[55:34] >> Interestingly, yeah. I mean, I I can

[55:36] give you an example from my own life

[55:38] that because I've been fighting with

[55:41] health stuff for the last couple of

[55:43] years, a lot of the time that's

[55:44] disrupted my sleep. When I wake up on a

[55:46] morning, if [clears throat] my body

[55:48] decides it wants to rip me awake at 3:00

[55:49] am or 4 a.m. something and there's this

[55:52] story that I tell myself of, oh well

[55:55] [ __ ] like today's already going to be

[55:56] ruined and this is really really painful

[55:57] and I'm going to lie awake and I'm going

[55:58] to stare at the ceiling and this is

[56:00] super annoying and isn't that going to

[56:01] suck and I'm not going to perform as

[56:03] well on the podcast and then maybe

[56:04] people are going to laugh or they don't

[56:05] like me and my whole life's going to

[56:06] fall apart and I got gluten intolerance

[56:08] and lever under a bridge and it's all

[56:09] going to go wrong and

[56:12] reaching for my phone and

[56:16] being distracting myself from that

[56:17] emotion.

[56:18] >> Yeah. is now after a while your sleep

[56:22] has improved which has meant the fear's

[56:24] gone away but you're left with the

[56:26] [ __ ] residue of the habit. [laughter]

[56:29] There's this very strange situation

[56:31] where yes, you're being puppeted by the

[56:35] coping mechanism of a emotion that

[56:38] you're no longer feeling,

[56:39] >> right?

[56:40] >> And that sticks about a lot of the time.

[56:43] And as now there'll be something else

[56:44] I'm doing, I'm sure, that is is the

[56:46] case. I'm like, well, I got to unwind

[56:47] this thing that I don't even need

[56:49] anymore that kind of maybe served a

[56:50] purpose to some degree or whatever. And

[56:53] now I'm like, well, [ __ ] Like, I've got

[56:55] to have to go and get rid of that. And

[56:56] I'm sure there's some other [ __ ] that

[56:57] I'm doing right now that I probably

[56:58] should be pointing at too. So like you

[57:00] end up if you're not careful I think and

[57:03] this is why people the sort of purto

[57:05] principle of to those who have

[57:06] everything more will be given and to

[57:08] those who have nothing more will be

[57:09] taken. Matthew principle. Um, the reason

[57:12] that it seems to suck so much for many

[57:15] people and the reason that spirals go

[57:17] down and spirals come up is that if you

[57:21] don't step in and consciously design

[57:24] your life if you're living it by

[57:25] default, you will begin to like

[57:27] sedimentary rock accumulate these things

[57:30] over time. And you're like, where the

[57:31] [ __ ] Like, why have you got that habit?

[57:33] It's like, oh, I don't know. like 15

[57:34] years ago this thing was happening and I

[57:36] did it and now I'm still puppeted by it

[57:40] even though that's gone. Does that make

[57:41] sense?

[57:41] >> Oh yeah, totally. I I think about this

[57:43] in a company structure all the time

[57:44] which is bureaucracy does not

[57:47] >> destroy itself. You have to actively go

[57:50] in and destroy bureaucracy and what

[57:52] you're describing is kind of an

[57:53] emotional bureaucracy.

[57:55] >> Ah, that's so good. It just like

[57:58] >> Well, I mean Connor's line, one of my

[58:00] favorites that he's given to me a

[58:01] gazillion times, but he dropped

[58:03] yesterday.

[58:04] >> One of my favorites is we try to control

[58:05] that which we cannot trust.

[58:07] >> Yeah. Yeah. I Yeah. I love that line.

[58:09] >> Yeah. It's like [ __ ] The first time he

[58:11] told me that I was like, "Oh, stop." I

[58:13] was like, "Close the call. I don't need

[58:14] to hear from you anymore. I'm going to

[58:15] go and like think about that. I'm going

[58:16] to think about that for the next couple

[58:17] of days." Uh, yeah. We try to control

[58:19] that which we cannot trust and that's

[58:21] the bure bureaucracy thing, but to some

[58:23] degree that's also the emotions thing.

[58:25] >> Well, so yeah. So, let's take your let's

[58:27] unpack your situation for a second.

[58:29] You're sitting in

[58:32] bed waking up and your brain's doing duh

[58:34] duh duh duh. What's the emotions

[58:36] underneath are probably sadness and

[58:37] helplessness.

[58:38] >> Mhm. Probably some shame as well.

[58:40] >> Yeah. Yeah. And probably some shame. The

[58:42] shame is most likely the thing blocking

[58:44] you from feeling the sadness and the So,

[58:47] and so a a bureaucratic free mentality

[58:52] is I'm gonna cry. I'm gonna be scared.

[58:55] I'm gonna go back to sleep.

[58:58] >> But nope. Before you can do that, you

[59:00] have to fill out this paperwork. It's

[59:01] called a phone. And you need to like

[59:03] scroll on the phone for this

[59:05] bureaucracy.

[59:06] >> And then, okay, now you have to Well,

[59:09] you've been scrolling on your phone. You

[59:10] kind of feel like [ __ ] So, you need to

[59:12] And you didn't get enough sleep, so now

[59:14] you need some caffeine. And now, but

[59:16] that caffeine, it kind of makes you

[59:17] anxious. And so, you've got this

[59:19] bureaucratic thing that you have to go

[59:20] through just to get back to some level

[59:22] of normal.

[59:23] >> Yeah. You've accumulated, you've sort of

[59:25] piled this bunch on top. Okay. So,

[59:28] >> yeah.

[59:28] >> Uh choices, choices, making the the um

[59:31] unconscious choices more conscious.

[59:32] That's one step.

[59:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. If and feeling the emotions

[59:35] that are happening around bringing your

[59:37] awareness to the emotional experience

[59:39] around the choices. And in all of them,

[59:42] so it's feeling the stuff that you don't

[59:43] want to feel, learning how to embrace,

[59:46] love, the stuff that you don't want to

[59:47] feel. So that that's this is I think the

[59:50] hardest part for people to really grock.

[59:54] So

[59:55] my story is emotional abandonment was

[59:59] like I had an alcoholic father. I had an

[1:00:00] alon mom. My needs were not taken care

[1:00:03] of for a large part. Some were and they

[1:00:06] did the best that they could but a lot

[1:00:09] of them were not taken care of. And

[1:00:12] so when I was growing up, when I was

[1:00:15] like in my 20s, I was like,

[1:00:20] I'm going to be emotionally abandoned by

[1:00:21] everybody. [ __ ] you all. Like anytime I

[1:00:24] felt emotional abandonment, I would do

[1:00:26] one of two things. I would be like, [ __ ]

[1:00:27] you. I don't need you anyhow. Which

[1:00:29] created more people emotionally

[1:00:31] abandoned me, or I get needy, which

[1:00:33] would create more people getting like

[1:00:35] emotionally abandoned me. So, so I was

[1:00:38] recreating this situation

[1:00:41] once I learned that I could embrace

[1:00:45] emotional

[1:00:47] abandonment, right? So that feeling

[1:00:48] would come up and instead of trying to

[1:00:50] get rid of it by going [ __ ] you or

[1:00:52] please come closer and I was just like,

[1:00:54] oh, I can actually experience this. I

[1:00:56] can allow for this. I can allow this in

[1:00:58] my life.

[1:01:00] >> I don't need to run from it. then I stop

[1:01:03] doing this and I stop doing this and

[1:01:06] people abandon me emotionally abandon me

[1:01:08] a lot less and when they do

[1:01:11] I don't really mind because I get to

[1:01:14] have that experience again and learn

[1:01:15] more deeply from that experience

[1:01:17] >> and realize that oh their emotional

[1:01:20] abandonment doesn't hurt even half as

[1:01:21] much as me emotionally abandoning myself

[1:01:24] >> and so then all of a sudden I'm like oh

[1:01:26] I can't wait to be emotionally abandoned

[1:01:28] again because I get that experience I

[1:01:30] get to learn again which is weird weird,

[1:01:32] but you had that moment. And when you

[1:01:34] have that moment with one of these

[1:01:36] emotions that you're like, "This is

[1:01:38] ridiculous." What starts happening is

[1:01:39] you're like, "Oh, let's see where else

[1:01:41] what other emotions I can love." And all

[1:01:43] of a sudden, these patterns that have

[1:01:45] been ruling your life, like emotional

[1:01:48] abandonment, start collapse, collapsing

[1:01:51] because all you're trying to do is feel

[1:01:54] the thing that you couldn't feel as a

[1:01:56] kid, which was like, "This [ __ ]

[1:01:58] sucks.

[1:01:59] like no one's here for me. That was the

[1:02:02] feeling I couldn't feel as a kid because

[1:02:03] if I did my whole life would collapse.

[1:02:06] >> So I couldn't feel it then but somewhere

[1:02:08] in my 20s I learned to feel it and then

[1:02:09] the pattern starts dissipating in my

[1:02:12] life.

[1:02:13] >> And so what you start seeing happening

[1:02:15] is when people start accepting these

[1:02:17] emotions, learning how to love and and

[1:02:20] and

[1:02:22] accept and say, "Oh, I can't wait to

[1:02:24] feel. I welcome this emotional

[1:02:26] experience."

[1:02:28] And you got to experience this in

[1:02:29] Groundbreakers. You got to see what

[1:02:30] happened. All of a sudden, these

[1:02:32] patterns that are in their lives for

[1:02:34] decades just start falling apart because

[1:02:36] >> it's [ __ ] terrifying.

[1:02:37] >> Yeah, it is.

[1:02:37] >> It's really destabilizing

[1:02:39] >> because their choices change because

[1:02:41] their their decision-m changes.

[1:02:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:02:44] >> Yeah.

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[1:03:44] Is there a

[1:03:46] category of decision

[1:03:49] that is marketkedly different?

[1:03:52] people, some people may have problems

[1:03:54] with like what what am I even going to

[1:03:55] wear today or, you know, how am I going

[1:03:56] to have a conversation with this barista

[1:03:58] at the at the coffee shop? But for the

[1:04:00] most part, I think it's going to be

[1:04:01] bigger things.

[1:04:02] >> Yeah.

[1:04:03] >> And when it comes to bigger things, am I

[1:04:06] going to stay in this relationship or

[1:04:08] not? Am I going to marry this person or

[1:04:09] not? Am I going to leave this job or

[1:04:10] not? Am I going to move to a new city or

[1:04:12] country or not?

[1:04:12] >> Yeah.

[1:04:14] >> How is is there anything different when

[1:04:16] it comes to that? Because it's less

[1:04:18] routine, right? like you're not going

[1:04:20] this is less of a reversible door not

[1:04:22] necessarily a reversible door but

[1:04:23] significant like [ __ ] if you're going to

[1:04:25] like move back from a country you picked

[1:04:27] up all of your possessions and you've

[1:04:28] gone over there and maybe there's

[1:04:29] financial implications and stuff like

[1:04:30] things happening and also how many times

[1:04:32] have you moved countries previously like

[1:04:34] show me the CV of how this has gone for

[1:04:36] you in the past I don't know I've never

[1:04:38] done it um I'm thinking about when

[1:04:41] people are facing the biggest decisions

[1:04:42] of their life what they feel are the

[1:04:44] most impactful the most momentous the

[1:04:46] scariest the grandest

[1:04:48] >> how do advise them to go through that?

[1:04:50] >> Well, there's a couple things that I

[1:04:51] think are really important to see first

[1:04:54] and then we can talk about the advice.

[1:04:56] So, the you started with the guy who's

[1:04:58] like how do I talk to the barista?

[1:05:01] It doesn't matter if it's how do I talk

[1:05:03] to the barista? If the decision is like

[1:05:05] as hard as it is to like where do I

[1:05:07] move, it's because the identity is at

[1:05:09] stake. So that person probably has like

[1:05:12] social anxiety, some sort of version of

[1:05:15] that. And they're like, "Oh my god, like

[1:05:17] am I going to be liked? Am I going to be

[1:05:19] like their whole identity of I am a

[1:05:22] person who's not good with other people

[1:05:24] is at stake if they talk to the barista.

[1:05:27] >> Uh the person who's like moving, their

[1:05:30] whole identity is at stake from like

[1:05:31] more obvious reasons. Like I'm a I'm a

[1:05:34] I'm a British guy in England who's a

[1:05:36] party boy. I am a guy in Austin. Well,

[1:05:40] who what the [ __ ] is Austin? Who's going

[1:05:41] to like me? Right? So, the identity

[1:05:44] starts in either case. That's like a

[1:05:46] really important piece to understand.

[1:05:48] The other thing to understand is that we

[1:05:50] have no idea what their big decisions

[1:05:52] are. We have no [ __ ] idea what the

[1:05:54] big decisions are. So, you could say my

[1:05:56] big decision was to marry my wife, Tara.

[1:05:59] Well, how about the decision to meet my

[1:06:00] wife? I didn't make it. How about the

[1:06:04] first date? I wouldn't even gotten to

[1:06:06] getting married if I didn't have the

[1:06:08] first date decision.

[1:06:10] >> Right. So, there's a whole bunch of

[1:06:12] little choices that I made along the way

[1:06:14] that allowed for the for me to even be

[1:06:17] considering whether I am going to y

[1:06:20] >> marry my wife. I think that's

[1:06:22] interesting. It's certainly true that

[1:06:24] there are some choices or decisions that

[1:06:27] we face that we don't realize what the

[1:06:29] future impact of them will be.

[1:06:31] >> Yeah. Um but I would say that there is a

[1:06:34] certain category of decision or choice

[1:06:36] that we are going to make where we

[1:06:38] realize the likelihood of this being

[1:06:40] small

[1:06:41] >> isn't that great. Like this is probably

[1:06:44] going to be a big decision. So you have

[1:06:45] like type one decision errors that sneak

[1:06:48] up on you but then the other kind

[1:06:50] probably don't evaporate quite as

[1:06:53] readily in the other. It's unlikely that

[1:06:55] moving countries is not going to be a

[1:06:57] big decision let's say.

[1:06:58] >> Right. The reason to to think about the

[1:07:01] fact that there's a whole bunch of

[1:07:02] decisions that led to this that you had

[1:07:04] no thought over and no maybe no control

[1:07:06] over is to get you get the identity of

[1:07:10] you out of the way in making the big

[1:07:13] decision,

[1:07:15] right? So the identity is that if you're

[1:07:18] having a big decision, the identity is

[1:07:20] is like, oh my gosh, well, who am I

[1:07:22] going to be in this situation? You know,

[1:07:25] you talked the other day about the Love

[1:07:27] Island thing, right?

[1:07:30] You couldn't see yourself the same way

[1:07:32] after the Love Island thing. You didn't

[1:07:34] choose for that to happen, but it had a

[1:07:37] massive stake in your identity. If you

[1:07:40] knew that that was potentially a

[1:07:42] potential for joining Love Island,

[1:07:45] >> existential crisis island. Yeah. No,

[1:07:47] [laughter]

[1:07:48] >> right. You would have been like, I have

[1:07:50] to make a choice. What am I going to do?

[1:07:52] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I

[1:07:53] thought I was just going to get to wear

[1:07:54] swim shorts for a few weeks.

[1:07:56] >> Exactly. So, so the the reason that you

[1:08:00] can that is to start separating the

[1:08:02] personalness the stop stop start

[1:08:05] separating the identity. Mhm.

[1:08:07] >> And that's the biggest thing about

[1:08:08] making like a really big decision,

[1:08:11] whether it's the barista decision or the

[1:08:13] thing is to really start looking at who

[1:08:16] is it that I want to be like or who even

[1:08:21] more profound is

[1:08:24] what am I exactly like to really

[1:08:27] question that identity. So, if I move to

[1:08:31] England and I have no friends,

[1:08:35] what does that mean about me? What is it

[1:08:37] that I'm scared of? Like, who who how

[1:08:39] could I be proud of myself even if I

[1:08:42] have no friends in England?

[1:08:45] What what essentially am I?

[1:08:48] And that question, I remember when that

[1:08:50] question hit me, that was a question I

[1:08:52] asked myself like 10 times a a a day for

[1:08:56] like years.

[1:08:57] >> What am I essentially? What am I

[1:08:58] essentially?

[1:08:59] >> That hearing you say the words what am I

[1:09:02] essentially gives me [ __ ] PTSD

[1:09:04] [laughter]

[1:09:06] reason that we're not going to bring up

[1:09:07] beautiful beautiful very grand PTSD.

[1:09:10] >> Yeah.

[1:09:11] >> Um

[1:09:12] >> Okay. And so, so, so in those moments,

[1:09:15] the the the added piece I would say is

[1:09:18] like this is a great moment to really

[1:09:20] wrestle with what you are essentially or

[1:09:24] what you want to be.

[1:09:25] >> And it's it's an opportunity instead of

[1:09:27] seeing it as like how do I make a great

[1:09:29] decision like a crack in the veneer of

[1:09:34] what you think you are, which means a

[1:09:36] crack in the veneer of the limitations

[1:09:38] you put on yourself.

[1:09:39] >> Wow. gets to get opened up and you get

[1:09:42] to see yourself for who you are.

[1:09:45] >> Is there do do you do you think about

[1:09:46] fear of change is that playing in

[1:09:49] because most decisions will result in

[1:09:52] some kind of change. Yeah. I I suppose

[1:09:54] interestingly uh inaction is also a

[1:09:57] decision, right? The decision to

[1:09:58] continue doing what's happening now. We

[1:10:00] have like a status quo anchor an

[1:10:01] anchoring bias inertia momentum thing

[1:10:04] that kind of carries us through and well

[1:10:05] that's also kind of a decision. It's

[1:10:06] just a a decision to not change as

[1:10:09] opposed to a decision to change. But I

[1:10:11] think about fear of change, difference,

[1:10:13] different things being different. Yeah.

[1:10:15] Is that does is this got a role to play?

[1:10:17] >> So I I just think it's like a higher

[1:10:19] order or lower order, right? So fear of

[1:10:21] change, what's actually the behind the

[1:10:23] fear of change? The fear of change is

[1:10:25] the unknown. And what's behind the

[1:10:26] unknown? I'm not going to be okay.

[1:10:28] >> And I'm not going to be okay as

[1:10:30] identity. So I'm scared that I the job

[1:10:33] situation is going to change. Okay,

[1:10:35] cool. I guarantee you the job situation

[1:10:36] is going to change, but I also guarantee

[1:10:38] you that you are going to be better off

[1:10:40] because of it. Okay, cool. I don't I'm

[1:10:42] not scared of the change anymore. I'm

[1:10:44] only scared of the change because of the

[1:10:46] potential negative repercussions on me.

[1:10:50] It's an unknown thing that might be bad

[1:10:52] for me.

[1:10:53] >> And it's the me that's the essential

[1:10:56] part of it. So, yeah, I do obviously

[1:10:58] there's a fear of change. It's just a

[1:11:00] higher order. It's like it's not the

[1:11:03] core of what you're dealing with.

[1:11:04] >> Understood. Yeah.

[1:11:05] >> Is there anything else to say on the

[1:11:07] difficult decision, big grand decision

[1:11:09] process?

[1:11:10] >> No, not much. Just it's a great

[1:11:11] opportunity. I mean, I've had some

[1:11:14] amazing that level of like if I have a

[1:11:17] client come to me and they're like, I'm

[1:11:18] in a big transformation moment in my

[1:11:20] life, like [ __ ] is changing. I'm like,

[1:11:22] yay.

[1:11:23] Because that's where the most growth is

[1:11:25] going to happen for a person. And if you

[1:11:27] look at your own life and you say, "When

[1:11:29] did I grow the most as a human

[1:11:32] >> or decline the most because I didn't pay

[1:11:34] attention?"

[1:11:35] >> Yes.

[1:11:36] >> It's going to be those moments of

[1:11:37] transformation.

[1:11:38] And so, so I get excited for them.

[1:11:40] They're huge opportunities. So,

[1:11:42] >> I'm aware I'm aware you get excited

[1:11:43] because

[1:11:45] [laughter]

[1:11:45] >> because you are the cross-leggy

[1:11:49] emotional equivalent of a Navy Seal

[1:11:51] drill sergeant, right?

[1:11:52] >> Or like a particularly rough PT. Like

[1:11:56] you, anyone that's ever worked with a

[1:11:57] trainer or been on a sports team or

[1:11:59] whatever and they've seen the strength

[1:12:00] and conditioning coach, the strength and

[1:12:01] conditioning coach has got this

[1:12:03] unnerving grin on their face on the

[1:12:04] morning of one practice and they're

[1:12:06] like, "Oh, we're going to have fun

[1:12:08] today." That's the face you pull.

[1:12:10] >> Yeah.

[1:12:10] >> That's the face you pull [laughter] more

[1:12:13] than you should as you're staring. It is

[1:12:17] because you're a bastard and you

[1:12:19] [laughter]

[1:12:23] it's the I take pleasure in somebody

[1:12:25] else's discomfort if they're they're

[1:12:28] working hard or doing the thing and you

[1:12:29] you're like you're going to face it like

[1:12:31] you're going to face it. It's like drill

[1:12:33] sergeant.

[1:12:34] >> It's the freedom on the other side that

[1:12:36] I am excited about.

[1:12:38] >> And also Yeah. It's kind of fun to

[1:12:40] watch. [laughter]

[1:12:41] >> It is

[1:12:44] mental torture. Emotional torture. Um,

[1:12:47] okay. [snorts] Are there any big

[1:12:50] indicators that somebody's about to make

[1:12:52] a terrible decision

[1:12:54] that you could see that somebody could

[1:12:56] sense inside of themselves where they're

[1:12:58] about to like, oh, I'm pointing in the

[1:13:00] I'm really pointing in the wrong

[1:13:01] direction. The reason I ask this is

[1:13:03] >> yes,

[1:13:03] >> I think good. Uh I think um

[1:13:07] expediting success is is great and what

[1:13:10] we want but avoiding failure like the um

[1:13:13] what's the Warren Buffett's two pieces

[1:13:15] of a trading advice uh uh number one is

[1:13:18] never lose money and number two is

[1:13:20] please read number one um that if you

[1:13:24] can go through life avoiding pitfalls

[1:13:27] that's a pretty [ __ ] good start

[1:13:30] >> and expediting success can come after

[1:13:32] rule number oneoid pitfalls. So,

[1:13:35] somebody is about to make a terrible

[1:13:37] decision. What's going on?

[1:13:39] >> So,

[1:13:41] I think there needs to be a definition

[1:13:42] of like what does it mean to make a

[1:13:44] terrible decision, right? So, most

[1:13:47] people think a terrible decision is a

[1:13:49] decision where they don't get what they

[1:13:50] want.

[1:13:52] >> That's what they think a terrible

[1:13:53] decision is. Meaning like they're

[1:13:55] sitting there saying to themselves, "I

[1:13:57] want a girl." No, I want a

[1:14:01] >> Frosty. That's not a terrible decision.

[1:14:03] use something else. I want a cigarette.

[1:14:05] >> I want a cigarette.

[1:14:05] >> I want a cigarette. There we go.

[1:14:07] >> I want a cigarette. And they they

[1:14:10] And if they get the cigarette,

[1:14:15] then they have made a successful

[1:14:18] decision.

[1:14:20] That's what they're thinking, right? I

[1:14:22] want the girl. Did I get the girl? I

[1:14:24] made a good decision. I want the money.

[1:14:26] Did I get the money? I made a good

[1:14:27] decision. I want the job. Did I get the

[1:14:30] job? I made a good decision. That is not

[1:14:32] what makes a good decision because the

[1:14:35] question is if I got the cigarette, did

[1:14:38] the cigarette actually give me what I

[1:14:40] want over the next year,

[1:14:44] month, week, decade? If I got the girl,

[1:14:47] did I get the thing?

[1:14:49] >> Right? Yesterday we talked about people

[1:14:51] be successful so that they can get the

[1:14:53] maid of their choice. But then the maid

[1:14:55] of their choice is the only mates of

[1:14:57] their choice are the transactional ones

[1:14:59] who only want them for their success.

[1:15:00] Yeah.

[1:15:01] >> So, so the the question is if you're

[1:15:05] thinking about it that way, no, I don't

[1:15:08] have a way to tell you if you're making

[1:15:10] a great choice or a bad choice. I can

[1:15:13] tell you that the um more fear that's in

[1:15:17] the choice makes it less likely that

[1:15:18] you're going to get the thing you want,

[1:15:20] >> right?

[1:15:20] >> Because if I'm coming to you with

[1:15:22] something that I want and I'm scared I'm

[1:15:24] not going to get it, you're less likely

[1:15:26] to give it to me.

[1:15:27] >> Mhm.

[1:15:29] I was wondering if you could donate to

[1:15:32] my cause.

[1:15:33] >> Yeah.

[1:15:33] >> Right. Isn't going to be as good as

[1:15:34] like, hey, I've got this great cause.

[1:15:36] So, the more fear that I have, I'm

[1:15:37] probably going to not get the thing that

[1:15:38] I want. The more fear that I'm running

[1:15:40] when I'm doing it, not that fear is a

[1:15:42] bad thing. It just means your fear is

[1:15:44] unprocessed.

[1:15:45] >> Yeah.

[1:15:45] >> The but if you're looking at what's a

[1:15:48] good decision like a good decision is I

[1:15:50] want the cigarette but I'm I don't get

[1:15:52] it.

[1:15:53] That is it's easy. Like if a person is

[1:15:57] compromising themselves to do the thing,

[1:16:00] then they're making a horrible [ __ ]

[1:16:02] decision,

[1:16:03] >> right?

[1:16:04] >> And how will you know if you're

[1:16:05] compromising yourself?

[1:16:08] >> That is a hard question. There is

[1:16:10] something in us that knows.

[1:16:13] [snorts]

[1:16:14] Oh, I just don't like how I am right

[1:16:17] now. There like it's it's and it is

[1:16:20] something that you become more and more

[1:16:21] sensitive to.

[1:16:22] >> It's exactly what I was about to say.

[1:16:24] Yeah,

[1:16:24] >> that's exactly where I was. That there

[1:16:26] is a category of person, maybe even a

[1:16:29] large majority of people who have

[1:16:33] suppressed that voice for so long that

[1:16:36] it's an entirely d-trained muscle,

[1:16:38] right? They've atrophied that and even

[1:16:41] the lightest even, you know, the bicep

[1:16:43] curl of a cigarette is a weight that's

[1:16:45] too heavy for them to lift. Yeah.

[1:16:47] They're not attenuated enough to that.

[1:16:50] So, let's say there's somebody who

[1:16:52] hasn't

[1:16:54] >> used that muscle for a long time, very

[1:16:56] atrophied. They they can't hear the

[1:16:57] voice particularly well.

[1:16:58] >> Yeah.

[1:16:59] >> How would you start? How would you begin

[1:17:01] to retrain the muscle?

[1:17:02] >> Yeah. What I would say is look at the

[1:17:04] last week, month, two months, and what's

[1:17:08] the one way in that time frame that you

[1:17:12] heard that you you felt this isn't the

[1:17:15] right thing to do and you did it anyway?

[1:17:18] What's the thing or what's the thing

[1:17:20] that's creating resentment in your life?

[1:17:23] >> Why resentment?

[1:17:24] >> Because resentment means you've

[1:17:25] abandoned yourself,

[1:17:27] right? Like uh if you ask me to do

[1:17:30] something and I don't want to do it and

[1:17:33] then I do it

[1:17:35] enough times, I'm going to resent you.

[1:17:37] >> Period.

[1:17:39] Right? So if you look at a marriage and

[1:17:41] somebody resents the other marriage, it

[1:17:42] means the other person in the marriage,

[1:17:44] it means that they're doing [ __ ] that

[1:17:45] they don't they're not holding their

[1:17:46] boundary. They're abandon they've

[1:17:48] abandoned themselves because they're

[1:17:50] trying to make the other person happy or

[1:17:51] trying to make them not angry or trying

[1:17:53] to they're walking on eggshells or

[1:17:55] they're accepting some sort of criticism

[1:17:57] because it's just keeping the peace. So

[1:18:00] resentment is a great way to look at it

[1:18:02] or just look back and go, where's the

[1:18:03] ways that I don't feel like I was the

[1:18:05] person I wanted to be in the last week?

[1:18:07] >> Mhm.

[1:18:08] >> Right. and take your time with it

[1:18:10] because I think most people if they look

[1:18:12] at that fully it's it's it's quite a ego

[1:18:16] collapse.

[1:18:16] >> I can imagine there's a certain category

[1:18:18] of person who constantly needs

[1:18:20] reassurance from others that their

[1:18:22] decisions are okay.

[1:18:23] >> Every single one of those moments of

[1:18:25] needing reassurance from others is a

[1:18:26] self-abandonment.

[1:18:28] >> Why?

[1:18:29] >> Uh how do you explain this? Um,

[1:18:34] it's saying I don't know what's right

[1:18:36] for me, which is a lie, but you do.

[1:18:40] >> Which means I'm literally giving my

[1:18:42] power over to you. I'm I'm saying and

[1:18:44] I'm giving my happiness. The

[1:18:47] responsibility for my happiness is yours

[1:18:49] now, not mine, which is an a

[1:18:51] self-abandonment. And I'm saying you

[1:18:53] know the answer for me when the truth is

[1:18:55] that I know the answer for myself. All

[1:18:57] of that is some level of

[1:18:58] self-abandonment. In other news, have

[1:19:01] you ever noticed how some websites make

[1:19:02] it ridiculously easy to buy while some

[1:19:04] feel infinitely harder?

[1:19:06] >> Back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles

[1:19:08] to the local store.

[1:19:09] >> Aren't you younger than me?

[1:19:10] >> Yeah, I bet my dad got a DUI.

[1:19:14] >> Anyway, the reality is most businesses

[1:19:16] just get the website wrong. And if your

[1:19:18] setup is messy, you lose a ton of sales,

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[1:19:53] That's shopify.com/modernwisdom.

[1:19:56] How do you split the difference between

[1:19:58] that and genuinely having a friend that

[1:20:00] is a good confidant that has a degree of

[1:20:02] expertise that knows you, that is able

[1:20:03] to see things that you don't see,

[1:20:06] you know that this would make a

[1:20:09] wonderful case for never listening to

[1:20:11] anybody ever about anything in your

[1:20:13] life?

[1:20:14] >> No, I I'm not ever saying don't listen

[1:20:16] to people. I think listening to people

[1:20:18] is like where a tremendous amount of

[1:20:21] wisdom comes from.

[1:20:23] I'm saying that if you're looking for

[1:20:24] their approval

[1:20:27] >> and there's this big difference.

[1:20:29] >> Is this okay for me to do?

[1:20:30] >> Yeah.

[1:20:31] >> Yeah. Yeah. Like somehow or another it's

[1:20:34] like if you're saying if you can't say I

[1:20:37] feel good about doing this without like

[1:20:40] looking over to you and say is it all

[1:20:42] right that we do this then you know

[1:20:44] you're you're abandoning yourself.

[1:20:46] How much of decisiveness do you think is

[1:20:51] learning to cope with increasing amounts

[1:20:54] of uncertainty?

[1:20:58] Yeah. So without a doubt if you're if

[1:21:03] you are confident in your identity to

[1:21:05] decisiveness increases dramatically.

[1:21:08] People who have a very stable sense of

[1:21:12] self are far more decisive than people

[1:21:15] who don't.

[1:21:18] There is also

[1:21:20] there's in business what you'll notice

[1:21:23] is that most CEOs start realizing that

[1:21:26] making decisions is better than getting

[1:21:29] decisions right.

[1:21:31] >> Making decisions is better than getting

[1:21:33] decisions right.

[1:21:34] >> Yes. Meaning,

[1:21:36] if I have a choice between making 10

[1:21:38] decisions a day and making them right,

[1:21:42] making sure that they're right, which

[1:21:44] I'll never perfectly do, or making a 100

[1:21:47] decisions a day and just getting them

[1:21:49] made, the 100 decisions a day is a

[1:21:52] better choice. And the reason is is

[1:21:54] because as soon as you make a decision,

[1:21:56] then you're testing your thesis against

[1:21:59] reality.

[1:22:00] >> If I'm sitting there going, "How do we

[1:22:02] market?" Well, let's make sure we market

[1:22:04] it best. What's the thing? And do all

[1:22:05] the data. I have I'm not running any

[1:22:07] experiments. I'm not actually going,

[1:22:09] well, what did the audience say? Okay,

[1:22:10] what did I learn? As soon as I make a

[1:22:12] decision, then I run an experiment. Then

[1:22:13] I learn something. Then I can make

[1:22:15] another experiment. Then I can I'm

[1:22:16] interacting with the world and learning

[1:22:18] from the world immediately. And so

[1:22:20] making the decision allows the action to

[1:22:22] happen so that the learning can occur.

[1:22:24] And so it's the same in life is that be

[1:22:27] making that decision is really

[1:22:29] important. The thing that stops you from

[1:22:31] making the decision is again if your

[1:22:33] identity is in jeopardy. So there's

[1:22:35] certain identities like if I have the

[1:22:38] identity of I'm an action guy, then it's

[1:22:40] easy for me to be decisive by nature.

[1:22:42] >> Yeah.

[1:22:43] >> But if I have the identity of I have to

[1:22:45] be right because every time I was wrong,

[1:22:47] my parents criticized me for 20 years

[1:22:49] and made fun of me and like 6 years

[1:22:51] later I'm at dinner table and I'm still

[1:22:53] being told how I like made a mistake

[1:22:55] from 6 years ago. then I'm gonna be

[1:22:57] like, "Okay, I gotta I gotta make this

[1:22:59] thing right

[1:23:01] >> because my identity is is engaged." And

[1:23:04] so, as people start to

[1:23:07] be really confident of like this is who

[1:23:09] I am and I'm valuable

[1:23:12] just because I'm valuable,

[1:23:14] >> those people become far far more

[1:23:16] decisive. And and even more than that,

[1:23:19] it's like there's less decisions and

[1:23:21] more choice because there's less fear

[1:23:23] because there's less

[1:23:25] >> there's less identity at stake. Like

[1:23:29] what? Like what what what do I have to

[1:23:31] worry about?

[1:23:32] >> George has this line. He says, "I'd

[1:23:33] rather be high conviction and wrong than

[1:23:35] low conviction and right."

[1:23:36] >> Oh, [ __ ] right. Absolutely.

[1:23:38] >> Cool.

[1:23:39] >> Yeah. Because I will learn I'm wrong a

[1:23:41] lot quicker.

[1:23:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah.

[1:23:44] Yeah. I'd rather be high conviction and

[1:23:46] wrong. I love this thought process that

[1:23:48] there's this test we use for gauging

[1:23:50] talent and it's a a test that has uh xy

[1:23:56] axises that people think are

[1:23:59] not

[1:24:01] uh they think they're contrary when

[1:24:03] they're not contrary and it's called

[1:24:04] paradox axises and so one of them is

[1:24:08] conviction and one of them is openness

[1:24:10] and most people think you can either be

[1:24:12] convicted and open but this graph is

[1:24:15] basically saying you can be high in

[1:24:17] convicted, high in openness, low in

[1:24:18] both.

[1:24:20] Right?

[1:24:20] >> Why do you place yourself on the graph?

[1:24:22] >> I I test as both very open and very

[1:24:25] convicted,

[1:24:26] >> right?

[1:24:27] >> And and but I say I say that because

[1:24:30] that actually makes it makes really good

[1:24:33] decisions.

[1:24:34] >> But that comes from a confidence in your

[1:24:36] identity. Meaning I am totally happy to

[1:24:38] be wrong and that doesn't threaten who I

[1:24:40] am. So, I love being open and I have

[1:24:44] high conviction because if I don't have

[1:24:46] high conviction, I don't take action.

[1:24:48] >> Yeah.

[1:24:49] >> Does regret play a role here? Lots of

[1:24:52] people fear future potential regret so

[1:24:57] much so that they get stuck and

[1:25:00] paralyzed in the moment now. Almost

[1:25:04] transpose it from the future and start

[1:25:06] to feel it down in the present.

[1:25:08] >> Yeah. Yeah. I see that for sure. The

[1:25:12] interesting thing that I noticed with a

[1:25:13] lot of people, and I think this is

[1:25:14] really useful for folks at home,

[1:25:18] do you re will you regret

[1:25:22] what you're imagining will happen more

[1:25:24] than you regret

[1:25:28] being indecisive for 3 months about

[1:25:31] whether to marry the woman or not? M

[1:25:34] >> what's interesting is that the thing

[1:25:36] that people fear

[1:25:38] is often the thing that they are feeling

[1:25:41] and stuck in

[1:25:44] in the moment of trying to make the

[1:25:45] decision.

[1:25:47] >> Like I'm really scared that if I marry

[1:25:50] her I'm going to be stuck. You're stuck

[1:25:53] right now

[1:25:55] trying to make this decision for six

[1:25:57] months.

[1:25:58] I am really scared that I'm going to

[1:26:00] regret that I wasted my time if I do

[1:26:03] this wrong. You're wasting your time

[1:26:05] right now in making this like decision

[1:26:08] for like 3 to 6 months.

[1:26:09] >> A low conviction stew.

[1:26:11] >> Exactly. So, so what's amazing is that

[1:26:15] the often times the thing that people

[1:26:17] are scared the emotional consequences

[1:26:19] people are scared of are far less.

[1:26:22] They're one inch, but the [ __ ] you're

[1:26:24] stewing in right now is like 10 inches

[1:26:26] deep to use Alex's.

[1:26:28] >> There's a a line from Alanderon talking

[1:26:31] about leaving relationships. And he

[1:26:33] says, uh, people are worried about

[1:26:36] leaving relationships because they're

[1:26:37] scared of being lonely, but what they

[1:26:39] don't realize is that exiting is the

[1:26:41] first step toward feeling connected.

[1:26:43] That the loneliness they fear is what

[1:26:45] they're already enduring.

[1:26:47] >> Exactly. That's exactly that's often

[1:26:50] times the the consequence that we're

[1:26:52] scared of in the decision is the thing

[1:26:54] that we're actually currently suffering.

[1:26:56] >> Yeah. And is less at a velocity or an

[1:26:58] amplitude that's less than than we're

[1:27:00] currently dealing with.

[1:27:01] >> Well, there's also the opportunity for

[1:27:03] it to stop where there isn't any

[1:27:05] opportunity to stop unless you take the

[1:27:06] action.

[1:27:07] >> Yeah. And presumably less shame

[1:27:10] >> around well I am doing this to myself.

[1:27:13] >> Yeah. I'm choosing to I'm

[1:27:17] like imprisoned inside of this cell and

[1:27:21] I know that not only am I the prisoner,

[1:27:24] but I'm also the captor that's holding

[1:27:25] the keys.

[1:27:26] >> And for some reason I refuse to put the

[1:27:28] key in the [ __ ] lock and turn it and

[1:27:30] open the gate.

[1:27:31] >> Yeah.

[1:27:32] >> The other thing that's really

[1:27:33] interesting is I think people when in

[1:27:35] they're in that deep indecisiveness,

[1:27:37] they really forget that they're being

[1:27:39] super self-abusive.

[1:27:41] M

[1:27:41] >> there's a lot of self abuse in that. You

[1:27:44] have to get it right. Why? Why can't you

[1:27:48] get it wrong? What's the problem? Like

[1:27:51] you you don't know. It's like you're

[1:27:53] literally telling yourself you have to

[1:27:55] get it right. You don't know. You don't

[1:27:57] know what's best for you. You don't like

[1:28:00] you can't and whatever happens, you're

[1:28:01] not going to be able to work yourself

[1:28:02] out of it. You know that, right? Like

[1:28:04] you're not going to just be able to take

[1:28:05] it as a lesson and then like grow from

[1:28:07] it. It's going to destroy you forever.

[1:28:09] Like that's the that's the subtext of

[1:28:12] being indecisive,

[1:28:15] right? And so that level of self- abuse

[1:28:17] is

[1:28:19] is is often unagnowledged or

[1:28:21] unrecognized. And when somebody actually

[1:28:23] sees it, it often can allow them to see

[1:28:27] like themselves in a way that allows

[1:28:29] them to be more decisive. Can you go

[1:28:32] just for a little bit? Can you go full

[1:28:34] Joe Hudson Connor Beataton crossover and

[1:28:36] apply as much pain as possible to people

[1:28:39] that are being indecisive? Like what

[1:28:41] what are the costs that people

[1:28:43] >> have to apply pain?

[1:28:45] >> Apply some pressure. Give them the

[1:28:46] gravitas of the situation like how

[1:28:48] important is this? And and what is it

[1:28:50] that they what is it that the situation

[1:28:52] is costing them if they choose if they

[1:28:54] continuing if they continue to be

[1:28:55] indecisive? What does indecisiveness

[1:28:57] cost you?

[1:29:02] Yeah. Um I think the thing I would say

[1:29:06] in that is some version of

[1:29:09] I'm I'm really sorry

[1:29:13] you're depressed

[1:29:15] and that somehow or another you think

[1:29:17] you need to be perfect

[1:29:20] to be valuable, to be loved, to be

[1:29:22] worthy.

[1:29:24] and you

[1:29:27] you don't

[1:29:29] and if you could see yourself clearly

[1:29:31] for a moment, you would see that this

[1:29:33] decision isn't going to define you for

[1:29:35] who you are and that you're worthy of

[1:29:36] love no matter what decision you make

[1:29:38] here.

[1:29:39] >> So, make the one you're proud of.

[1:29:42] >> I would say something like that.

[1:29:44] [snorts]

[1:29:48] >> What else is there to say?

[1:29:49] >> You dweeb.

[1:29:50] >> You [laughter]

[1:29:52] [ __ ] idiot.

[1:29:55] How does this relate to assertiveness?

[1:29:58] Cuz I imagine maybe not quite the same.

[1:30:01] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[1:30:02] >> But the people pleasing, the standing up

[1:30:04] for myself, the saying what's true for

[1:30:06] me, the the assertiveness. I imagine

[1:30:09] people who have

[1:30:11] >> clicked on an episode about decision-m

[1:30:12] to become better with their decisions.

[1:30:14] >> Yeah.

[1:30:14] >> May also, you like the you may also like

[1:30:17] this

[1:30:18] >> thing. It's like you may also be

[1:30:19] interested in

[1:30:21] >> being more assertive. How do you come to

[1:30:22] think about assertiveness?

[1:30:24] >> I'm not going to be audience shaped like

[1:30:27] what was I'm sorry. What was it called?

[1:30:29] Audience

[1:30:29] >> captured.

[1:30:30] >> Yeah. I'm not going to be audience

[1:30:31] captured like that. I don't give a [ __ ]

[1:30:32] >> That's right. Yeah. [ __ ] you. [laughter]

[1:30:35] I'm going to talk about [ __ ] sushi.

[1:30:36] Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

[1:30:38] >> Exactly. Um I assertiveness I think can

[1:30:42] be

[1:30:45] >> So there's a difference between being

[1:30:46] assertive I would say and having agency.

[1:30:49] I would say that

[1:30:51] if you do the work to be decisive, you

[1:30:54] definitely feel like you have more

[1:30:55] agency.

[1:30:57] >> Agency to life.

[1:30:58] >> Yeah. Agency doesn't have to be

[1:31:00] assertive. And I think those get

[1:31:02] confused a lot.

[1:31:03] >> Can you give me an example of a way that

[1:31:05] somebody is uh agentic but non not

[1:31:08] necessarily assertive?

[1:31:10] >> Yeah. um uh

[1:31:16] like a great actor. They're they say,

[1:31:19] "I'm going to be this kind of an actor.

[1:31:21] I want and I'm committed to these kinds

[1:31:23] of roles and I'm going to do it and

[1:31:24] people accept me and I'm going to go for

[1:31:27] auditions, but I'm not going to like

[1:31:30] create my own role and and and get a a

[1:31:34] whatever get directed and buy a script

[1:31:36] and produce the thing so that I can

[1:31:38] finally have the role that I want." Now,

[1:31:39] some people would that would be called I

[1:31:41] would call that more assertive, but but

[1:31:45] this person has agency. They're saying,

[1:31:47] "I'm going to live the life that I want

[1:31:48] to live. I want to be the person that I

[1:31:50] want to live." I think there's an

[1:31:52] assertiveness that in some people's

[1:31:54] definition that goes along with

[1:31:55] aggression like I'm going to like

[1:31:58] fundamentally and and I think for some

[1:32:01] people their nature is not that level of

[1:32:06] aggressiveness. They don't have that

[1:32:07] fire

[1:32:08] >> imposition in that way.

[1:32:09] >> Yeah, they don't have that fire, but at

[1:32:11] the same time, they're not going to

[1:32:12] compromise. And I remember when I was in

[1:32:15] college, there was a um right before I

[1:32:18] got kicked out of my first college, um I

[1:32:22] was taking a class on Herman Hess and

[1:32:23] there was a German teacher and the

[1:32:25] German teacher was

[1:32:28] uh lived through the Berlin bombings and

[1:32:33] and he said, "When we were under the

[1:32:37] under the tunnels and the bombs were

[1:32:38] happening and people were yelling up

[1:32:40] top, it was always the quiet

[1:32:46] non macho man and the non assertive type

[1:32:51] who went up and pulled them out of the

[1:32:53] of the bombing and it was always the

[1:32:56] bravado guy who didn't

[1:32:59] >> and so that to me would be the

[1:33:01] difference like one of them has

[1:33:03] assertiveness but they don't have the

[1:33:05] agency to be themselves

[1:33:07] >> are they inversely linked in your

[1:33:09] opinion more assertive people less

[1:33:10] agentic No, not at all. Right. I think

[1:33:13] they're just not correlated.

[1:33:14] >> Right. Okay.

[1:33:15] >> Yeah. But I do think there's a a

[1:33:17] tremendous amount of people who are

[1:33:20] >> My experience is there's a tremendous

[1:33:21] amount of when you when you become when

[1:33:24] you be get really good at decision-m

[1:33:26] that you it's a very high agency place.

[1:33:29] >> Mhm. Well, it's I would imagine it is

[1:33:33] difficult to be high agency and

[1:33:36] indecisive.

[1:33:37] >> Correct. So even if

[1:33:41] >> decisiveness is it's necessary but not

[1:33:43] sufficient right perhaps to be agentic.

[1:33:46] George is currently trying to get his

[1:33:48] conception. He's got this [ __ ]

[1:33:50] tricycle that he sent me a photo of the

[1:33:51] other day. George George Mack he's

[1:33:53] writing a book on agency. He's going to

[1:33:55] writing the definitive book on high

[1:33:56] agency. It'll come out at some point in

[1:33:58] the next year and a half. And I've

[1:34:00] watched this guy craft this thing like

[1:34:02] watching like a

[1:34:05] like David be carved out of a massive

[1:34:07] block of Do you know the story about

[1:34:09] David about how a number of other uh uh

[1:34:12] sculptors had tried their hand at that

[1:34:14] block of marble previously?

[1:34:16] >> No, I had no idea.

[1:34:17] >> Really cool. So I've been to see it

[1:34:19] twice and I've taken the same tour and I

[1:34:21] just for me

[1:34:22] >> it's Michelangelo. Yes.

[1:34:23] >> Okay. Cuz that also

[1:34:25] >> is Yes. True. One of my favorite, by the

[1:34:27] way, one of my favorite symbols in the

[1:34:29] world.

[1:34:30] >> Oh, it's beautiful.

[1:34:31] >> God stretching out, reaching for man,

[1:34:34] and man's just not worth. He's not I'm

[1:34:36] not going to [ __ ] lift a finger for

[1:34:37] you, [ __ ] [laughter]

[1:34:40] >> Play around. Yeah, it's so true. But I

[1:34:42] actually got the guys to move that a

[1:34:43] tiny little bit because when you look at

[1:34:45] how close together it is, we looked on

[1:34:48] the the painting and it was too close.

[1:34:50] it was closer than it is in the painting

[1:34:52] because the whole point is that um even

[1:34:54] the ligament that was uh the way that

[1:34:57] the hand was shaped because there was a

[1:34:59] ton of dissections being done right by

[1:35:00] Michelangelo and he'd realize the way

[1:35:02] that the ligament is when it's relaxed

[1:35:04] and when it when it is stretched but it

[1:35:06] was too [ __ ] close. I was like I I

[1:35:08] know that we've done all of this time in

[1:35:10] the studio and all this stuff.

[1:35:10] [laughter] I was like can we just move

[1:35:12] it like about 2 in further apart? Um,

[1:35:15] but no, so Michelangelo's David, this

[1:35:17] block of, you know, gargantuan block of

[1:35:20] marble. Have you ever seen it in person?

[1:35:21] >> I have not.

[1:35:22] >> Dude, it is. And because it's on a

[1:35:23] plinth, it's a [ __ ] plinth. So,

[1:35:25] it's already his foot's pretty much head

[1:35:28] height or maybe even higher. And then

[1:35:30] he's 8t tall, maybe 10 feet tall, maybe

[1:35:33] more. Massive. Massive. Maybe even more.

[1:35:34] Maybe like 12 feet tall. He's huge guy.

[1:35:36] And with the proportions as well that

[1:35:39] were used to kind of accentuate that. So

[1:35:41] much bigger hands by proportion. longer

[1:35:43] arms, longer legs by proportion than you

[1:35:46] would have. So, it's long and tall and

[1:35:48] big at the same time.

[1:35:49] >> Uh anyway, this block of marble had been

[1:35:52] a number of sculptors had had a crack at

[1:35:54] it previously and sort of started like

[1:35:58] [ __ ] it's too unwieldy to use. It's

[1:36:00] gargantuan thing. And um he was the one

[1:36:04] that that went to go and do it. And my

[1:36:05] favorite thing, which I've said a

[1:36:06] gazillion times on the show, but not for

[1:36:08] a while, is uh the Michelangelo

[1:36:09] [clears throat] effect. two people in a

[1:36:12] relationship, friendship, intimate

[1:36:14] partnership, see the best in each other.

[1:36:17] And over time, like Michelangelo saw

[1:36:20] David inside the marble and he just

[1:36:23] removed that which was not David. Yeah.

[1:36:25] >> And then David emerged.

[1:36:26] >> I love that.

[1:36:27] >> And it's the same thing that you know

[1:36:28] the best kinds of friendships and

[1:36:30] relationships are is I see in you the

[1:36:33] best parts of you and I'm going to help

[1:36:35] to bring that out. I'm going to try and

[1:36:37] cut away all of this other stuff that

[1:36:39] isn't you.

[1:36:40] >> I don't even think all that is

[1:36:41] necessary. It's just seeing the other

[1:36:43] person. Like my experience is like

[1:36:45] that's the when we teach people

[1:36:46] coaching, that is the core of what we

[1:36:49] teach.

[1:36:51] See them see the wisdom. See see them as

[1:36:54] who they actually are. Even if they

[1:36:55] can't see themselves, listen to that

[1:36:57] part. Talk to that part.

[1:36:59] >> That's all that's really required is to

[1:37:01] just see them as they essentially are

[1:37:03] and everything else takes care of

[1:37:05] itself.

[1:37:06] How do people know the difference

[1:37:11] between

[1:37:14] their genuine embodied

[1:37:17] wisdomfueled intuition

[1:37:20] and something masquerading as intu in

[1:37:23] intuition, impulsivity,

[1:37:25] fear that I imagine many clever people

[1:37:29] that are two hours into a podcast about

[1:37:31] decision-m will be afflicted with. uh

[1:37:35] they've managed to cleverly contort and

[1:37:38] pretzel this thing actually. Oh, that is

[1:37:40] my intuition speaking, but it's not.

[1:37:42] It's just a a clever like confabulation

[1:37:44] of of what is actually fear or maybe it

[1:37:46] is impulsivity or coping or whatever. Is

[1:37:49] there a way to discern?

[1:37:51] >> Yeah. The way in coaching relationship

[1:37:53] it it is your capacity to understand

[1:37:55] yourself, right? So the more clearly you

[1:37:57] see yourself, the more clearly you can

[1:37:59] see others

[1:38:01] >> like and and exactly the way I can't see

[1:38:03] myself is exactly the way I'm not going

[1:38:04] to be able to see you.

[1:38:07] >> Can we can you tell me about what your

[1:38:09] retreat was like that you did recently?

[1:38:11] I've been real excited to learn about

[1:38:13] this. Are you Do you mind talking about

[1:38:15] this?

[1:38:15] >> I don't want to talk about this. Okay.

[1:38:17] >> Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, I can we

[1:38:19] can go for a walk and find

[1:38:21] >> I can tell you I can tell you like a

[1:38:22] broad thing, but I I can't Yeah. Um

[1:38:26] yeah, I've been ever since I was in my

[1:38:28] 20s, I really got into uh the Vadic

[1:38:32] sciences generally just as one of the

[1:38:34] avenues in which I've learned. So I got

[1:38:36] into Zen, I got into Herman Hess, I got

[1:38:40] into the Vadic sciences. And the Vadic

[1:38:43] sciences have a a part that's all about

[1:38:46] health. And they have something called

[1:38:48] Ayurvedic health. And they have

[1:38:51] something that they do for longevity

[1:38:53] called poncha karma. You could call it

[1:38:55] longevity, you could call it health. I

[1:38:57] call it health. And it's basically like

[1:38:59] a reset where there's a very particular

[1:39:02] diet and they give you in this

[1:39:04] particular place where I went um they

[1:39:06] give you like six hours of treatments a

[1:39:09] day and they can be they're all sorts of

[1:39:12] crazy treatments and um and so I did it.

[1:39:17] Uh it was I've done it three years in a

[1:39:19] row now. This is the most intense one

[1:39:21] that I've ever done. and I found a very

[1:39:22] intense place to go

[1:39:24] >> and it was an amazing emotional roller

[1:39:27] coaster which I haven't experienced in

[1:39:29] years. So that was really cool to like

[1:39:32] watch my emotions do this thing.

[1:39:34] >> Yeah, I imagine that sounds a little bit

[1:39:36] like a Brazilian jiu-jitsu fourthderee

[1:39:39] black belt going, I got twisted into a

[1:39:40] pretzel. That's been a little while. I

[1:39:43] didn't think that that was going to

[1:39:44] happen. I remember what that feels like.

[1:39:45] >> Yeah. And it was all through physical

[1:39:47] stuff. So the the part that I enjoyed

[1:39:49] the most about it is that they really

[1:39:51] disenourage discourage talking. So

[1:39:54] everywhere there's room setting silence.

[1:39:55] There's no phones in the cafeteria.

[1:39:58] There's no talking in the cafeteria that

[1:40:00] like you're basically alone quiet. It's

[1:40:03] in a forest, you know, and so

[1:40:06] >> little like noble science adjacent noble

[1:40:08] silence adjacent.

[1:40:09] >> Yeah. So I got to do a lot of meditation

[1:40:11] which made me really happy. So I got to

[1:40:12] really observe the [ __ ] the the

[1:40:16] craziness of basically

[1:40:18] >> I think the mood was mostly just a

[1:40:20] nervous system because there was a a

[1:40:22] huge part of it is a nervous system

[1:40:23] reset or in their words it's like a VA

[1:40:26] reset and and so there was just this

[1:40:29] massive kind of for this 6 day period of

[1:40:32] just like wow holy crap I got to do

[1:40:35] things why am I got to do that I don't

[1:40:37] need to do anything why do I have to

[1:40:38] like that kind and I was and it was in

[1:40:40] this contrast between like absolute

[1:40:43] bliss and peace. So I'm like, "Oh, this

[1:40:45] is amazing." And then IT JUST TURNED ON

[1:40:48] AND then it just turned off and it just

[1:40:50] turned back on cuz they're just like,

[1:40:52] [laughter]

[1:40:53] "What happens when I do this? What

[1:40:54] happens I do that?" Right. Yeah. And I

[1:40:57] got to experience, by the way, I got to

[1:40:59] experience the doctor having that facial

[1:41:01] expression.

[1:41:02] >> He was a Navy Seal thing. I'm going to

[1:41:05] poke you in the thing and it's going to

[1:41:06] [laughter] make the stuff happen to you.

[1:41:08] Wonderful. It makes me that's karmic for

[1:41:11] me to find that you're on the receiving

[1:41:12] end for once.

[1:41:13] >> I feel satisfied.

[1:41:15] >> I I I much prefer to be on the receiving

[1:41:18] end because that's where the freedom's

[1:41:19] on the other side of it. So

[1:41:21] >> yeah. And and and

[1:41:24] I there's no shortage of it. You've met

[1:41:26] my wife, but you haven't met my

[1:41:28] daughters. There's no shortage of me.

[1:41:29] >> Met one very briefly. I think she come

[1:41:31] from Cross. She playing.

[1:41:33] >> Oh yeah. Okay. So you met Una? Yes. We

[1:41:35] did a podcast with her. Such a good

[1:41:37] podcast. Was it like is it something

[1:41:39] titled like what it's like to be Joe

[1:41:40] Hudson's daughter or some [ __ ] like

[1:41:41] that?

[1:41:42] >> I can't I don't remember.

[1:41:43] >> Yeah. Okay. You're not in the titles

[1:41:44] until optimization.

[1:41:45] >> I am I am I am horribly not on the

[1:41:49] internet

[1:41:49] >> again. Yeah. [laughter] Afflicted with

[1:41:51] it. Uh dude, I love you.

[1:41:52] >> What a pleasure to be with you.

[1:41:53] >> I love you a bit. Um people that are

[1:41:55] interested in this, what should they go

[1:41:58] and look at? Where should they go? Uh we

[1:42:00] have the decision there's we have a

[1:42:02] couple podcasts on decision-m that go

[1:42:04] into some depth on all of the things

[1:42:05] that we talked about and uh the decision

[1:42:08] great decisions course. I will say it's

[1:42:11] only a fiveweek course but oftent time

[1:42:13] it is an extremely intense course

[1:42:14] because you're going right into a lot of

[1:42:16] these emotions. So just like know that

[1:42:20] that's what care.

[1:42:21] >> Yeah that's know what you're getting

[1:42:22] into

[1:42:23] >> and that's at this begins at the start

[1:42:25] of

[1:42:26] >> January. I think we sell it the very

[1:42:28] beginning of January like as a New

[1:42:29] Year's resolution kind of thing.

[1:42:31] >> When does that go live? You got any

[1:42:32] idea?

[1:42:33] >> Like when the the

[1:42:35] >> You can get on You can get on to the

[1:42:36] waiting list and the waiting list gets a

[1:42:38] 24hour early thing and you can get on

[1:42:40] the waiting list today

[1:42:41] >> and it usually sells out with the

[1:42:43] waiting list.

[1:42:43] >> Within the waiting list.

[1:42:44] >> Yeah. Great. Uh connection course, all

[1:42:46] of the other stuff, art of

[1:42:47] accomplishment podcast. You're the best.

[1:42:49] >> Thank you, man. Pleasure.

[1:42:50] >> See you next time, my beauties. Dude,

[1:42:54] >> that was a good one. very tempting.

[1:42:57] >> A quick note, lots of people tell us

[1:42:58] that YouTube unsubscribes them from the

[1:43:00] channel even though they already pressed

[1:43:02] it. So just check down there and see if

[1:43:04] the subscribe button is pressed. You get

[1:43:06] access to episodes before anybody else.

[1:43:07] If you do, it supports me and the show

[1:43:09] helps me to bring you bigger and better

[1:43:10] guests and it makes me very happy. So

[1:43:12] just go and give it a tap for me. I

[1:43:14] thank you.

Modern Wisdom
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Joe Hudson argues that intelligent people often get stuck because their analytical skill generates endless considerations, and those considerations are frequently driven by an emotional goal such as avoiding the feeling of being wrong. Perfectionists and people who were heavily criticized as children are especially prone to long, circular analysis. The analysis keeps going because it is protecting them from an emotional outcome.
Hudson says it is 100% an emotional problem, arguing that people make decisions to feel a certain way, such as feeling loved, valuable, or not rejected. Logic is mainly used to predict how you will feel under different options. He calls the idea of a purely logical decision a way to justify emotional repression.
In Hudson's framing, a choice is something you make without thinking about it, like which way to turn on the drive to the grocery store. A decision is something you actually spend time on. A good life, he says, is built from making both well, with the aim of having fewer decisions and more choices made easily.
Yes, according to Hudson, though he describes it as recognition rather than training. Once you understand what happens beneath your hesitation, decisiveness begins to flow from that understanding. He links this to moving deliberate system two thinking into the more automatic system one over time.
Hudson says fear removes options before you evaluate them. If you are scared of rejection, you will not take the risks that people who tolerate rejection can take, so those options never enter your thinking. He notes that this is why apparent decisions are often avoidance in disguise.
Hudson describes prolonged analysis, such as thinking about a marriage choice for six months, as usually driven by a fear of consequences or a deep need to get things right. The mind keeps producing considerations because the real question is emotional safety, not information. Recognizing that pattern is the first step toward loosening it.

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