Transcript
[0:00] There are three macronutrients to the
[0:02] happiest life. The happiest people have
[0:05] enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning.
[0:08] Those are the three macronutrients. Now,
[0:10] that's important because it means you
[0:12] need to enjoy your life and and you need
[0:14] to know the difference between enjoyment
[0:15] and pleasure, which many people don't. I
[0:18] mean, the pursuit of pleasure is not the
[0:20] secret to happiness. It's the secret to
[0:21] rehab. Satisfaction, which is the joy of
[0:25] an accomplishment or an activity after
[0:27] struggle. And last but not least is
[0:29] meaning. The why of your existence. The
[0:32] happiest people have a bead on those
[0:35] three things and they pursue those three
[0:36] things really, really actively. Now,
[0:39] inside all three of those things,
[0:40] there's this funny thing called
[0:42] unhappiness. Inside each of the
[0:44] macronutrients of happiness, you find
[0:46] discontent and frustration and a lot of
[0:49] suffering. If you spend your life, which
[0:52] many people do today, trying to avoid
[0:54] unhappiness, trying to avoid and
[0:55] eliminate suffering, they will
[0:57] paradoxically miss their own happiness.
[1:00] Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast,
[1:02] where we [music] discuss science and
[1:03] science-based tools for everyday life.
[1:07] [music]
[1:09] I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor
[1:11] of neurobiology and opthalmology at
[1:13] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest
[1:15] today is Dr. Arthur Brooks. Arthur
[1:18] Brooks is a professor at Vanderbilt
[1:19] University and a senior fellow at the
[1:21] Harvard Business School. Today we
[1:23] discuss what makes people truly happy
[1:26] and what this thing we call happiness is
[1:28] really all about. What I love about
[1:29] Arthur Brooks and what you'll realize
[1:31] today is that he looks to experimental
[1:33] data, philosophy, his and others
[1:36] experiences to arrive at specific
[1:38] questions that you can ask yourself to
[1:40] determine what matters most to you and
[1:42] what stands in the way of you actually
[1:44] getting those things. In fact, I must
[1:46] say this episode with Arthur Brooks is
[1:48] one of my favorite ever on the Hubberman
[1:49] Lab podcast. He is brutally honest. He's
[1:52] open. He's generous with knowledge that
[1:54] can help you, the listener. And he's
[1:57] incredibly humble. Thanks to Arthur, the
[1:59] conversation you're about to hear is one
[2:01] that I'm confident you'll want to think
[2:02] about, act on, and come back to
[2:04] periodically. I can say for myself with
[2:06] certainty that it's the conversation I
[2:08] wish I'd heard long ago. Arthur doesn't
[2:11] have all the answers, nor does he claim
[2:12] to, but I do think he has a sort of
[2:15] hardearned compass and a set of maps
[2:17] that we can all apply to have a much
[2:19] better and indeed a great life. Before
[2:21] we begin, I'd like to emphasize that
[2:23] this podcast is separate from my
[2:24] teaching and research roles at Stanford.
[2:26] It is however part of my desire and
[2:28] effort to bring zero cost to consumer
[2:30] information about science and science
[2:31] related tools to the general public. In
[2:34] keeping with that theme, today's episode
[2:35] does include sponsors. And now for my
[2:38] conversation with Dr. Arthur Brooks. Dr.
[2:41] Arthur Brooks. Welcome.
[2:43] >> Thank you, Dr. Andrew Huberman.
[2:44] >> We're only going to call each other
[2:46] doctor once at the beginning of this
[2:47] podcast. I'm so happy you're here.
[2:49] >> Me, too.
[2:49] >> Yeah. I consider you a friend. And um
[2:52] >> before we became friends, uh
[2:54] >> you were already my teacher. I was
[2:56] learning a ton from you. You have a a
[2:58] ton of wisdom. before you like step into
[3:00] your humble self and
[3:02] >> push aside. I just really want to
[3:03] highlight that because um that there are
[3:05] a lot of people influencing, educating,
[3:08] uh advising, coaching, etc. But uh you
[3:12] represent like really the the confluence
[3:16] of of ideas and practices and wisdom in
[3:18] ways that I and and people can really
[3:20] understand and benefit from. So really
[3:22] looking forward to having you here.
[3:24] >> Thank you. Likewise. I mean, what you've
[3:26] done over the past now 5 and a half
[3:28] years with this podcast
[3:29] >> just about. Yeah.
[3:30] >> You changed the whole way that educators
[3:33] can reach a lot of people. What we want
[3:35] as educators, science in the public
[3:37] interest. We want to touch people's
[3:38] lives. We want to lift them up and bring
[3:40] bring them together using science, using
[3:42] ideas, and how how how do you do that?
[3:45] You showed the way because what you did
[3:47] was you started this podcast within 6
[3:49] months. It was a big deal. And what you
[3:51] showed was a whole generation of people
[3:53] younger and older than you. I'm I'm
[3:55] older than you, that this is something
[3:58] that people can do, that we can reach
[3:59] people. You made that possible. You made
[4:01] that possible for me. It was an
[4:02] incredible gift.
[4:03] >> Oh, well, I'm honored and um thank you.
[4:06] Um I realized today that perhaps the
[4:08] toughest part about this conversation is
[4:09] going to be make sure that I keep you
[4:11] focused on you a little bit. You're so
[4:13] humble and uh but I appreciate the kind
[4:15] words and I consider us colleagues and
[4:17] friends. So you're known as uh the
[4:20] happiness guy.
[4:21] >> You know a lot about it, what it is and
[4:23] what it isn't.
[4:24] >> So let's start with um first principles
[4:26] there that people can really wrap their
[4:28] head around and apply. Uh what's the
[4:31] difference between unhappiness and
[4:33] happiness or is that even the right
[4:35] model?
[4:36] >> Yeah, most people start with the wrong
[4:39] model of what happiness actually is. So
[4:42] you can't define unhappiness until you
[4:44] can define happiness. And happiness is
[4:46] not what most people think. Most people
[4:47] conceive of happiness as a feeling, as
[4:50] as an emotion. And that's quite wrong in
[4:53] the same way that the smell of your
[4:54] turkey is not the same thing as your
[4:56] Thanksgiving dinner. The smell of the
[4:58] turkey is evidence of your Thanksgiving
[4:59] dinner. And the feelings of happiness
[5:01] are evidence of happiness. And when I
[5:03] first came into the field, I mean, I've
[5:05] been a behavioral scientist for 30
[5:06] years, but I started specializing in the
[5:09] science of human happiness exclusively.
[5:11] I wrote the first book of mine on this
[5:13] in 2008. But but I decided in 2019 after
[5:17] I took a hiatus from academia to go run
[5:19] a big think tank in Washington DC that I
[5:21] was going to specialize for the rest of
[5:22] my career in this thing that most people
[5:25] believe they wanted. I was going to
[5:27] really make it make it work. And there's
[5:28] of course happiness. People want to be
[5:29] happier. And the first thing that I
[5:31] realized is there wasn't a very good
[5:32] definition of happiness. It was just so
[5:35] [snorts] crazy. The thing that everybody
[5:36] wants, they can't quite define it. Uh, I
[5:39] can't put words to it, but I know it
[5:41] when I feel it. This is what I would get
[5:43] when I would ask my classes. So, what do
[5:44] you think you're studying? Or it's how I
[5:46] feel when I'm with the people that I
[5:48] love or or or doing the things that I
[5:50] enjoy. And I recognized that this would
[5:52] be completely inadequate in any other
[5:54] area of science. And so, I went back to
[5:56] try to find the right metaphor, the
[5:58] right parallel field to define
[5:59] happiness. And I felt that the field of
[6:02] nutrition did it really well by taking
[6:04] food and breaking it into macronutrients
[6:07] and micronutrients. So I asked myself,
[6:10] okay, what are the macronutrients of
[6:12] happiness? What are the fundamental
[6:13] elemental building blocks of happiness?
[6:16] And to figure that out, you go and you
[6:17] look at the people who have the highest
[6:18] life satisfaction that's measured in
[6:21] robust and proper ways, good construct
[6:23] validity, good science behind it. And
[6:25] what you find is doing kind of a factor
[6:27] analysis is that there are three
[6:29] macronutrients to the happiest life. The
[6:31] happiest people have enjoyment,
[6:34] satisfaction, and meaning. Those are the
[6:36] three macronutrients. Now, that's
[6:38] important because it means you need to
[6:40] enjoy your life. And and you need to
[6:42] know the difference between enjoyment
[6:43] and pleasure, which many people don't. I
[6:46] mean, the pursuit of pleasure is not the
[6:47] secret to happiness. It's the secret to
[6:49] rehab, right? And so, so you have to
[6:52] understand, right? For sure. And uh um
[6:55] satisfaction, which is the joy of an
[6:58] accomplishment or an activity after
[7:00] struggle. And last but not least is
[7:03] meaning, the why of your existence. The
[7:05] happiest people have a bead on those
[7:08] three things and they pursue those three
[7:10] things really, really actively. Now,
[7:12] inside all three of those things,
[7:14] there's this funny thing called
[7:15] unhappiness.
[7:16] Inside each of the macronutrients of
[7:18] happiness, you find discontent and
[7:21] frustration and a lot of suffering. And
[7:24] so the first or I should say the second
[7:27] uh uh misunderstanding about happiness
[7:29] is that it's incompatible with
[7:31] unhappiness. It's not. If you spend your
[7:34] life, which many people do today trying
[7:36] to avoid unhappiness, trying to avoid
[7:38] and eliminate suffering, they will
[7:40] paradoxically miss their own happiness.
[7:42] So that's the first thing to understand.
[7:44] Could you drill a little bit deeper into
[7:46] enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning?
[7:48] Yeah. And maybe just put some contour on
[7:51] each of those. We'll go back to
[7:52] unhappiness and suffering and how it
[7:54] relates to all three.
[7:55] >> For sure. So, so enjoyment um is very
[7:58] much related to pleasure. But pleasure
[8:01] is fundamentally a limbic phenomenon. I
[8:03] mean just if you if you touch in
[8:05] experiments you've done these you've
[8:06] seen these experiments forever the the
[8:07] vententral stratum or the vententral
[8:09] tegmental area you can get this inc you
[8:12] can get the stimulation of these parts
[8:13] of the brain that will give you this
[8:14] sense of a booleiance this sense of you
[8:16] know immediate joy from anything from
[8:19] your girlfriend saying
[8:21] I love you or a big bump of cocaine not
[8:23] that you would because the brain is so
[8:26] unbelievably thrifty right that's not
[8:29] part of happiness that's a phenomenon
[8:32] from sort of the place to scene brain
[8:34] from something the middle place to scene
[8:36] what 250,000 years ago
[8:38] >> saying that's rewards you go get more of
[8:42] that is kind of what it comes down to
[8:45] >> you don't want to have that as your goal
[8:46] in life I mean like the hippies used to
[8:48] say if it feels good do it my dad said
[8:51] that's the end of America he was kind of
[8:53] right
[8:53] >> I think your dad and my dad either were
[8:55] friends I don't think we have the same
[8:56] dad but um [laughter]
[8:57] >> separated from
[8:58] >> yeah my dad and no disrespect to the
[9:01] hippies Uh but my dad had very clear
[9:03] thoughts about how the children of
[9:05] >> people with that mindset were um at a
[9:08] disadvantage because of that message
[9:10] specifically.
[9:11] >> What will happen of course very quickly
[9:13] is that your pleasures which are
[9:15] fundamentally animal I mean your your
[9:17] your your dog your beautiful new dog
[9:20] friendly new dog that I just met. He has
[9:21] a lyic system not that different than
[9:23] yours and he feels emotions that are not
[9:26] that different than yours. Right? I mean
[9:28] this he has amygdala amygdala you know
[9:31] he has a dorsal anterior singulate
[9:33] cortex he has a vententral straight I
[9:35] mean he's got all these different parts
[9:36] and just kind of like we do but he's not
[9:38] human
[9:40] >> because he's managed largely by these
[9:42] emotions and we have this choice we have
[9:44] this incredible prefrontal cortex this
[9:47] this human cortex that's enormous your
[9:50] dogs is wafer thin ours is like 30% of
[9:52] the weight of our brain and what that
[9:54] supercomput allows us to do is to choose
[9:57] between animal impulses and moral
[9:59] aspirations. We get to make that choice.
[10:01] That's a conscious executive choice.
[10:04] When we convert pleasure into enjoyment,
[10:07] it's because it takes on moral
[10:09] aspiration to it. We take our pleasures
[10:12] and we add people and memory, thereby
[10:14] kind of delivering them to an an
[10:16] executive experience that we're
[10:18] managing, that we we understand, that
[10:20] we're conscious of, that we can
[10:21] remember, and that's fundamentally
[10:22] social. It's quintessentially human. As
[10:25] a matter of fact, that's what it's all
[10:27] about. So I, you know, I talk to my
[10:28] students and
[10:29] >> who are graduate students or 28 years
[10:31] old on average and my and my kids who
[10:33] are 28, 26, and 23.
[10:36] >> You know, what does this mean? And and
[10:38] for most people, what it means is if
[10:40] there's something that makes you feel
[10:41] good, cuz we all have our thing, whether
[10:43] it's highly glycemic carbohydrates or
[10:46] any kind of addictive behavior. And in
[10:49] point of fact, it can be
[10:50] dependenceprovoking, which many things
[10:52] can. and they when they when they're
[10:54] when they when they wire into the
[10:55] dopamine system. You've talked about
[10:57] this ad at Nauseium so many times. I've
[10:58] heard you talk about this. If you're
[11:00] doing it alone, you're probably doing it
[11:01] wrong. Probably it's uh it's probably
[11:04] more about pleasure and less
[11:06] [clears throat] about enjoyment. It's
[11:07] not a perfect rule. I like to walk in
[11:09] the woods by myself and say my prayers,
[11:10] but those things aren't addictive.
[11:12] >> And so that that's how to how to how to
[11:14] think about it. You need to enjoy your
[11:16] life. And that means there there are
[11:19] things that give you pleasure at a at a
[11:21] metaphysical or physical level, but they
[11:23] also have people in memory and you're
[11:25] managing them and they're not managing
[11:27] you. So that's kind of the in a nutshell
[11:29] how I think about enjoyment. Now many
[11:32] people are bad at that, especially
[11:33] stvers. Who who listens to your podcast?
[11:36] People who are serious about their
[11:37] lives. There's nobody who's like, "Ah,
[11:39] whatever. Who's going to listen to your
[11:40] podcast?
[11:41] >> We're not a whatever podcast.
[11:42] >> You're a Strivever podcast.
[11:43] >> We should do a title card sometime. How
[11:45] to whatever."
[11:46] >> Yeah. I know it won't go very well April
[11:48] Fool's episode.
[11:49] >> I know, right? This is not one of those
[11:51] podcasts.
[11:52] >> You had guys like me on, right?
[11:53] >> And and what strivvers, one of the
[11:55] things they often struggle with if
[11:57] they're very very very uh uh um
[11:59] competitive, if they're ambitious, if
[12:01] they're successful, is that they want to
[12:04] be special more than they want to be
[12:05] happy. And so they want to put points on
[12:07] the board. And if it's not putting
[12:09] points on the board, they're not going
[12:10] to do it. And these are the people that
[12:11] I have to work with to be to to work on
[12:14] the macronutrient enjoyment. Is there
[12:16] fear that were they to
[12:20] >> enjoy life more, be happier, I'm
[12:22] probably using these terms incorrectly,
[12:24] that somehow they would lose their drive
[12:26] because as you were describing
[12:27] enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning and
[12:30] by the way, I love this
[12:31] >> uh description of enjoyment as you know,
[12:33] we we have animal impulses and then but
[12:35] then there's this other end of the
[12:37] spectrum which are moral aspirations.
[12:40] Wouldn't at least some component of a
[12:42] great life be to marry those two things
[12:45] so that your pursuit of of these animal
[12:48] impulses actually raised you up morally?
[12:50] I mean that's the ultimate I mean we
[12:52] have so many examples now in the media
[12:53] of of uh prominent politicians in
[12:56] particular with all the elections going
[12:58] on where their careers [clears throat]
[13:00] are tanked. I do believe they might have
[13:03] been trying to be good people on
[13:06] average, but they they temptation ruined
[13:09] that career anyway. Totally. Totally.
[13:11] And so it's clear it exists in them and
[13:13] and in many in everyone, right? But the
[13:16] fact that that can happen to
[13:18] >> it's almost feels like a a misuse of the
[13:21] animal impulse.
[13:21] >> Yeah.
[13:22] >> Is there a a way to marry uh animal
[13:26] impulse to moral aspiration in a way
[13:28] that's seamless or does it always work?
[13:30] >> No. No. You you have just defined
[13:31] enjoyment. Proper enjoyment is one where
[13:34] you are you're doing what you what you
[13:36] think is prudent and natural and good to
[13:39] do. It's something that you want to see
[13:41] yourself doing and at the same time is
[13:43] pleasurable.
[13:44] >> You know, that's why that the best
[13:46] moments over the course of my 35 year
[13:49] marriage are highly pleasurable and
[13:51] extremely enjoyable. M and it's the kind
[13:54] of thing where I could get, you know,
[13:56] found out by the press that I'm having
[13:58] another beautiful night with Esther.
[14:00] [laughter] You know, that's good is what
[14:03] it comes down to. And and the truth is
[14:05] we all struggle with these things
[14:07] because we are biological creatures. You
[14:09] know, I'm fundamentally a a behavioral
[14:11] scientist, but psychology is biology.
[14:13] One of the things I've had to retrain in
[14:15] so many of these areas, especially over
[14:17] the past 10 years, is because the
[14:19] biology has become so salient in our
[14:21] field. And one of the things that you
[14:23] find is that the the trouble that people
[14:25] actually have is when animal impulse and
[14:27] moral aspiration go in different
[14:28] directions. And one of the great
[14:30] strategies for life is how to point them
[14:32] in the same direction.
[14:34] >> How to and and sometimes you have to
[14:35] choose.
[14:36] >> Sometimes you have to choose and and
[14:38] people feel like it's I should you know
[14:41] if it feels good it must be good for me.
[14:43] But that's have the and so I'm going to
[14:44] do it. That's having the same life goals
[14:46] as prozzoa or something you know.
[14:48] >> Or if it feels bad it must be bad for
[14:50] me. And there probably a lot of things
[14:51] that people should could benefit from
[14:54] doing that are going to feel quote
[14:55] unquote painful in the process.
[14:58] >> Now we're in the gym. I'm I'm a gym rat.
[14:59] So are you.
[15:00] >> Do you do you like training? I like
[15:01] training. I
[15:02] >> I really do like training. But it's a
[15:03] funny thing because when leg day I still
[15:06] want to throw up. I've been in the gym
[15:10] almost every day for 30 years.
[15:12] >> Wow.
[15:12] >> And and you're in great shape, by the
[15:14] way. It's obvious to anyone watching,
[15:15] but you know what? I feel good.
[15:17] >> Is it okay to share? You're 62.
[15:19] >> 62 years old. Yeah.
[15:20] years old. Yeah. And and it's and you
[15:22] know, I've got genetics that keep me
[15:24] really lean. So, it's not like it's any
[15:26] any flex that I can stay at, you know,
[15:28] 10% body fat or something like that.
[15:30] That's not that's just that's just
[15:32] nature. But the truth is I I I really I
[15:35] recognize that that I I need to keep the
[15:37] machine in good shape because the brain
[15:40] is part of the machine. And as we both
[15:43] know, hard exercise, picking up heavy
[15:45] things and and and running around is
[15:47] fundamental to affect management and
[15:49] also to the maintenance of the overall
[15:51] functioning of how the machine works. I
[15:52] don't want to fall prey to, you know,
[15:55] type three diabetes, which is what we're
[15:57] calling Alzheimer's these days. I don't
[15:59] want metabolic disorders that are that
[16:01] are avoidable. So, I actually I do that.
[16:03] Now, leg day sucks, man. I mean, I've
[16:06] been doing leg day every fourth day for
[16:08] four for 30 years, and I still don't
[16:11] like it. I would still skip leg day.
[16:13] Every day would be chest day because
[16:14] everybody likes chest day, right?
[16:16] Because it feels better. But the truth
[16:18] is that I do it because I actually know
[16:20] how the muscle protein synthesis works.
[16:22] I know that for hormone balance, leg day
[16:24] is the most important day for these
[16:26] really large muscle groups. And and and
[16:28] what am I doing? I'm making the decision
[16:30] to do something that foregoes my my
[16:32] comfort, my pleasure, even a moment of
[16:35] my happiness for the moral aspiration
[16:37] that I actually have. And and that leads
[16:38] to this important conclusion from the
[16:41] research in this area, which is that
[16:42] mother nature
[16:44] doesn't care if you're happy. This is
[16:47] it's you know, we all think it's like if
[16:49] I'm not happy, then something's not
[16:51] right. No, no, it might very well be not
[16:54] right. You know, there there all kinds
[16:56] of suffering that you actually need to
[16:57] grow a as a person. You need negative
[17:01] emotions because negative emotions are
[17:02] an alarm system that show that your
[17:04] reptilian brain has has has registered
[17:07] signals sending these signals to your
[17:10] lyic system and and and and setting off
[17:13] alarms in, you know, from sadness and
[17:15] anger and disgust and fear.
[17:17] >> That's unpleasant, but that doesn't mean
[17:19] anything's wrong. It means everything's
[17:20] right. How you react to it can be how
[17:23] you want to in so doing have a better
[17:25] having a better life notwithstanding the
[17:27] fact that it doesn't feel good. And
[17:29] that's a life of discipline. That's a
[17:31] life of of the kind of behavior that you
[17:33] actually want. That's worth moral
[17:34] aspiration.
[17:36] >> I'd like to take a quick break to
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[20:39] to get up to 27% off. I've got this
[20:43] statement that um you just mentioned
[20:46] like ringing in my ears in in the best
[20:48] way, which is that you're saying uh this
[20:50] moral aspiration piece is uh has a lot
[20:53] to do with or reflects doing uh what you
[20:57] want to see yourself doing. I really
[20:59] like that because I think for many
[21:00] people um they want to see themselves
[21:05] doing things that others would approve
[21:06] of, right?
[21:07] >> And from a young age we're told what we
[21:09] should do and why,
[21:11] >> right? You need to like get dressed up
[21:14] for this event or you need to, you know,
[21:16] sit up certain way, eat a certain way,
[21:18] be polite and these things which are all
[21:21] important parts of our training, right,
[21:23] as humans,
[21:24] >> right? But there's something really
[21:26] special that happens when we as you
[21:28] pointed out when we see ourselves doing
[21:29] something and it feels good and we it's
[21:32] a positive self-reflection of the
[21:34] non-egotistical kind.
[21:37] >> Right. And I don't think we
[21:39] >> talk enough about this because there's
[21:41] so much out there now about how social
[21:43] media is all about comparisons. So
[21:45] people are showing other people here's
[21:46] what I'm doing. But there's a different
[21:48] version of that where somebody does
[21:50] something that they're proud of and puts
[21:52] it to the internet and they're seeing
[21:54] themselves do something that they're
[21:56] proud of and they get the feedback and
[21:58] >> you know provided that their ego is in
[22:01] check and they don't let the positive
[22:03] comments go to their head or set them up
[22:04] for disappointment when they don't get
[22:06] as many of them the next time. All
[22:08] things that are wired into those
[22:09] reinforcement circuits.
[22:10] >> I think that's great. They're seeing
[22:12] themselves
[22:13] >> exercising. Oh, by the way, it could be
[22:15] painting. It could be time with family.
[22:17] It could be being in volunteer and
[22:19] service. And we tend to look at that
[22:21] stuff and say, "Oh, you know, they're
[22:22] just doing the display." So my
[22:26] >> question is to really get the ideal
[22:28] match between this uh animal impulse and
[22:31] and moral aspirations piece that we see
[22:33] ourselves and experience ourselves doing
[22:35] what we want to see ourselves doing and
[22:38] that we not share it because I'm open to
[22:39] the idea that the sharing diminishes it
[22:41] somehow.
[22:42] >> It can. [clears throat] Yeah,
[22:43] >> it can. But fundamentally, I think it's
[22:46] actually quite important that you
[22:47] declare what your moral aspirations are.
[22:50] And part of the reason is because this
[22:51] gives you a commitment bias. So there's
[22:53] a lot of behavioral science about that.
[22:55] A lot of psychology that actually talks
[22:56] about commitments bias when you say,
[22:58] "Here's the thing that I'm actually
[22:59] going to do. I'm going to finish my
[23:01] PhD." Right?
[23:02] >> This is a big part of weddings. I
[23:04] attended a lot of weddings. And it's
[23:05] kind of an amazing thing, this wedding
[23:07] ceremony.
[23:08] >> Yeah. Makes you path dependent toward
[23:09] your own aspirations. people stand up
[23:11] and give a bunch of really amazing
[23:13] promises in front of all their friends
[23:14] and then they get a bunch of gifts and
[23:16] that there I'm not cynical about this at
[23:18] all like from a reward pathway
[23:20] perspective it's like you're rewarding
[23:21] the promises that they're making in
[23:24] addition to the union that they're in
[23:25] right then a lot of the reward is like
[23:27] you're giving them things for their life
[23:28] going forward sadly I have a number of
[23:30] friends who've been divorced and they
[23:33] depending on how long ago the wedding
[23:34] was
[23:35] >> they often feel quite sheepish about all
[23:37] the gifts like what they got all these
[23:38] gifts for the promises they made. Now
[23:40] they've changed their mind,
[23:42] >> right?
[23:43] >> Some cases broken those promises, but
[23:45] they've changed their mind, right? It's
[23:46] not till death do us part. It's now
[23:48] until it got inconvenient enough that
[23:50] we're going to part ways. And
[23:53] >> it's an incredible still occurring kind
[23:57] of ancient display of promising
[24:00] publicly, I'm not going to quit.
[24:03] >> Yeah. No, totally. This is this is my
[24:05] person through thick and thin, through
[24:07] sickness and in health and all the
[24:09] things that you actually talk about.
[24:10] You're actually talking in the in the
[24:12] wedding promises. You're saying it's
[24:14] going to suck sometimes.
[24:15] >> That's what you're saying. I mean, it's
[24:17] like richer and poorer and we're going
[24:20] to stick this thing out despite the fact
[24:22] that we're we're stating right up front
[24:24] that there's going to be times of
[24:25] poverty, there's going to be times of
[24:27] sickness, there's going to be there's
[24:28] going to be trouble ahead. And that's
[24:30] basically saying that happiness has
[24:32] unhappiness in it. I'm defining
[24:34] happiness. How am I defining happiness?
[24:36] That I'm going to get 80, 90 years and
[24:40] as I take my dying breath, I'm going to
[24:41] be looking. I'm like donote and this is
[24:44] my dulin. And I'm going to be I'm going
[24:46] to be looking into her eyes as I as I
[24:49] recite the holy scriptures and take my
[24:51] dying breath. That's basically what
[24:53] you're saying. And you're defining that
[24:55] as your bliss. I mean, if it weren't
[24:57] your bliss, you'd be like, "Why are you
[24:58] doing it? I want it." Because that's a
[25:01] good life. That's what you're stating.
[25:02] and you're and and you're laying out
[25:04] what actually happiness looks for and
[25:06] you're saying it's going to be full of
[25:07] unhappiness. That's what you're saying
[25:10] and that's the thing for people to
[25:11] understand that that's what it comes
[25:13] down to when you are laying out publicly
[25:16] your moral commitments when you're
[25:18] actually saying this. What you're saying
[25:20] is you're recognizing that happiness and
[25:22] unhappiness are intertwined and you want
[25:24] the full you're basically saying bring
[25:27] it on.
[25:28] >> It's like courage. Mhm.
[25:30] >> It's a declaration of of your
[25:32] independence from the world and your
[25:34] dependence on each other, which is a
[25:36] beautiful thing. It's what you do when
[25:37] you're publicly baptized as an adult.
[25:40] Anytime that you're taken into a new
[25:41] religion, there's always these
[25:43] commitments about these moral
[25:44] aspirations that you're making.
[25:46] Recognizing, yeah, sometimes this is
[25:49] going to go contrary to my animal
[25:50] impulses. Absolutely. And you know, this
[25:52] is one of the things that I love about
[25:54] sort of the modern internet culture.
[25:55] There's a lot to regret. There's a lot
[25:57] that you and I look at like, oh man, you
[25:59] know, but the other thing I really
[26:00] really like is it's facilitated this
[26:03] wholesale movement of aspiration for
[26:07] excellence.
[26:08] >> A lot of people they want to be
[26:09] excellent,
[26:10] >> you know, it's like I so this isn't just
[26:13] the heroin podcast is not just
[26:15] entertainment, high class entertainment.
[26:17] People want an edge. They want to know,
[26:19] you know, why why are they so attracted
[26:21] to the protocols? Protocols toward what?
[26:23] Toward being better. They want to be
[26:25] more successful. They want to be better
[26:27] liked. They want things to go better for
[26:29] them. That's a that's a human drive for
[26:32] excellence. And when people can finally
[26:34] make peace with the fact that your
[26:36] animal impulses will not gen will not
[26:39] always and frequently not lead you to
[26:42] excellence, then you can finally be
[26:44] free. Do you think that a lot of the
[26:47] friction out there um politically uh
[26:51] socially is basically about drawing the
[26:55] line between what is animal impulse and
[26:58] what is moral aspiration?
[27:00] >> I mean I don't want to take us too far
[27:01] down.
[27:02] >> Tell me more. What do you mean?
[27:03] >> I mean some of the animal impulses are
[27:05] obvious, right? Um, and they're all for
[27:07] the neurobiologists, we would say
[27:08] they're very like limbic, hypothalamic,
[27:10] right?
[27:11] >> But, you know, some people would say,
[27:13] okay, like here's the quote unquote
[27:15] traditional model of marriage and um and
[27:19] morality.
[27:20] >> Yeah.
[27:20] >> And some people would say actually we
[27:22] want to kind of bend that a certain way
[27:24] where um people could have quote unquote
[27:26] unconventional relationships or
[27:28] unconventional families or I mean I
[27:30] think everyone would agree that lie
[27:32] lying, cheating, and stealing is bad.
[27:34] Right.
[27:34] >> Right. But there's a an attempt, I
[27:36] think, to draw a kind of jagged line
[27:38] between moral and immoral that, you
[27:40] know, certain things that are not of
[27:44] biblical traditional morality are okay
[27:48] because as long as they're done
[27:49] consensually and in the and in the name
[27:51] of love.
[27:52] >> Right.
[27:52] >> Right. And we're not talking about
[27:54] breaking laws here, although some people
[27:55] really push this to the extreme, but
[27:56] that's not what I'm talking about.
[27:57] That's that's
[27:59] >> and I'm staying off specific issues not
[28:01] not to be like politically careful here
[28:03] but just because I feel like a lot of it
[28:05] is like where are we going to draw the
[28:07] line between limbic and higher order in
[28:09] fact it gets it actually gets inverted
[28:11] where people will say no that the more
[28:13] evolved way of thinking is past all that
[28:16] where you can really get beyond this
[28:19] this this very uh you know black and
[28:22] white morality and really say no there's
[28:25] all sorts of versions of of what uh
[28:27] love, family, marriage, commitment, um
[28:30] child rearing could look like.
[28:32] >> Conscious pilot. What is truth?
[28:34] >> Right.
[28:34] >> Right. It's very postmodern.
[28:36] >> Yeah, it is very postmodern. But I think
[28:38] that I mean I feel like
[28:40] >> this is that like people are pulling
[28:42] back and forth on this line just like in
[28:44] science people are trying to say the
[28:45] scientists and doctors that are all you
[28:47] know uh traditional scientists and and
[28:49] physicians they have the knowledge and
[28:51] then the general components of the
[28:53] general public are saying actually
[28:55] during the pandemic you lied you know
[28:57] like a teenager following their and like
[28:58] you need to admit you lied and then
[29:00] they're like I didn't lie you know you
[29:01] know and so there's just trying to pull
[29:03] back we have the torture of truth no we
[29:04] have the torture of truth and of course
[29:06] >> there are elements of truth on
[29:08] But with this in this case it's sort of
[29:10] >> I think at the extremes we all
[29:12] understand murder is bad right lying
[29:14] cheating stealing bad right but then
[29:16] what constitutes a a moral aspiration
[29:19] >> right
[29:20] >> to one camp is actually a moral insult
[29:23] >> right
[29:24] >> and vice versa
[29:25] >> so John height you've had him on the
[29:26] show right yes John height's great and
[29:27] John I height and I go way back we go
[29:30] back to the early part of the 21st
[29:32] century so and John heighten are just
[29:34] the same age and and we've had these
[29:35] sort of parallel careers writing about
[29:37] about science of human happiness. The
[29:38] guy's a visionary. He's probably the
[29:42] greatest social scientist of our
[29:44] generation.
[29:44] >> Wow.
[29:45] >> He's that great. I mean, it's he's
[29:46] unbelievable. He wrote book a book about
[29:49] moral foundations. And he talked about
[29:51] the fact that there are two moral
[29:53] foundations that everybody has in
[29:55] common, and that's care and fairness.
[29:58] Care for others and fairness. Now, we
[30:00] define those things differently. I mean,
[30:02] what does care mean? Does the care mean
[30:03] giving everybody, you know, taking care
[30:06] of them at the base level or does it
[30:08] mean everybody gets an apartment and
[30:09] free groceries? I mean, you figure out
[30:10] what that means.
[30:11] >> And that uh that's a legitimate argument
[30:13] about, you know, what it means. Fairness
[30:15] is really really different, especially
[30:16] between political polls where one side
[30:19] is about redistributive fairness and the
[30:21] other side is about meritocratic
[30:23] fairness. You know, what fairness
[30:24] actually means, but everybody wants a
[30:26] fair and caring society and you believe
[30:28] that you should be fair as a parent. You
[30:29] should care for your kids. Then what he
[30:31] shows empirically with his work which no
[30:34] doubt has a huge neurobiological basis
[30:36] and I'm sure has a huge genetic basis as
[30:38] well because these personality
[30:39] characteristics generally do are usually
[30:41] between in the in the identical twin
[30:43] studies it's usually 40 to 80% genetic
[30:46] all the aspects of personality which is
[30:47] super interesting in and of it in of
[30:49] itself is that there's three elements of
[30:52] morality that are very different between
[30:55] the political polls. They are loyalty,
[30:58] purity and authority. And so loyalty is
[31:01] like flag burning is bad, right? You
[31:04] know, I come from a very progre mostly
[31:07] progressive family, politically
[31:08] progressive family. And and if I asked
[31:10] somebody, you know, from my family of
[31:12] origin, what do you think about flag
[31:13] burning? They'd be like inadvisable,
[31:15] right? As opposed to morally evil,
[31:17] right? Soft answer.
[31:18] >> Yeah. When it comes, right? And the
[31:21] second is is is loyalty, you know,
[31:24] loyalty to tribe. And what you find is
[31:26] that people who are more on the
[31:27] politically conservative side, they have
[31:29] a different sense of loyalty. Loyalty
[31:31] towards sports teams. So you find that
[31:33] when you in these interesting studies
[31:34] that you go into a political
[31:35] conservatives office and you'll find
[31:37] like a a sports poster where for
[31:40] political liberals office, you're very
[31:42] very much less likely to find this is
[31:44] what you find. And then of course this
[31:46] what what it where it really has teeth
[31:47] is toward you know national identity.
[31:50] you know, where you're loyal toward
[31:51] national my it's like my country right
[31:54] or wrong which is one of the reasons you
[31:56] find such a strong political
[31:57] prepoundonderance of one side in the
[31:59] military forces in the American military
[32:01] as opposed to the other not to say that
[32:02] one side's right or wrong but that's
[32:04] just you know how it comes down height
[32:06] would say that's that's a difference in
[32:08] moral foundations and the last that you
[32:10] were really touching on here is purity
[32:12] is moral purity and the moral purity is
[32:16] about in for example in sexual matters
[32:18] is very very profound, you know, and so,
[32:21] you know, there's a there's a you know,
[32:23] I've seen a bumper sticker in San
[32:24] Francisco that says, "Your body may be a
[32:27] temple, but mine is an amusement park,
[32:30] right? It's funny in its way, right?"
[32:32] But what that is basically saying,
[32:33] >> it's very it's very what I would call
[32:36] because I'm from the Bay Area, sort of
[32:38] uh old older San Francisco like circa
[32:40] '7s to now. Now there's a there's a kind
[32:43] of a growing conservative movement
[32:45] somewhat tucked into the tech community
[32:48] although you find a mix of both.
[32:49] >> You find a mix of both too but it's kind
[32:51] of a libertine thing
[32:53] >> where libertarianism and libertinism
[32:55] diverge which is a really interesting
[32:57] boundary too is what you find but that
[33:00] actually describes those differences are
[33:02] you know so so you know each side will
[33:04] say the other side is immoral. No
[33:05] they're differently moral and you decide
[33:08] you know which you think is right. And
[33:10] if you tell me in a structured survey
[33:12] what you think is right on those
[33:14] particular issues, I have a very high
[33:17] degree of certitude in in guessing how
[33:19] you vote,
[33:20] >> actually. Now, some people are in these
[33:22] weird things. You can be in kind of a
[33:23] you can be a political conservative, but
[33:26] a cultural liberal,
[33:27] >> right? Those aren't very many people,
[33:29] but you do find them. They tend to be
[33:30] the political libertarians. As a matter
[33:32] of fact,
[33:32] >> it's fascinating because ultimately here
[33:34] we're talking about um drawing
[33:36] boundaries between different brain
[33:38] areas. At least that's what the
[33:39] neurobiologist in me thinks. But um
[33:42] >> I mean obviously
[33:44] >> politics, laws and behavior matters a
[33:47] lot.
[33:48] >> It really matters because ultimately
[33:50] people can say all sorts of things about
[33:51] what they believe, what they want to be,
[33:53] but
[33:53] >> we are ultimately judged on what we do.
[33:56] >> And I think we probably judge ourselves
[33:59] on the basis of what we do or ideally we
[34:01] would we would look at that. Let's talk
[34:03] a little bit about
[34:04] >> we've gone through one macronutrient,
[34:06] >> right? One macronutrient. What exercises
[34:08] do you suggest to um students to start
[34:12] to explore their own relationship
[34:15] between animal impulse and moral
[34:17] aspiration?
[34:18] >> Yeah. So, one of the things that I talk
[34:21] about is is how they understand leisure.
[34:25] >> So, leisure is what you do and they're
[34:27] not compensating you for in the time
[34:29] that's actually free. How you understand
[34:32] leisure. M so and and the greatest
[34:35] writer about this is Yseph Peeper the
[34:38] the mid 20th century German philosopher
[34:41] his most important book was leisure the
[34:42] basis of culture that's his most
[34:45] inflecting it's actually a long essay
[34:47] >> it's very very beautiful he says I can
[34:48] tell you everything you need to know
[34:49] about a culture by how they actually use
[34:51] leisure
[34:52] >> interesting
[34:52] >> he doesn't want to know what you do for
[34:54] money he wants to know how you use your
[34:56] time when nobody's paying you that's
[34:58] because he says that's what reflects who
[35:00] you actually
[35:02] That's why I never liked the Oh, you can
[35:03] tell by the books on somebody's shelf
[35:05] cuz books on somebody's shelf doesn't
[35:07] mean they actually read those books
[35:08] first.
[35:08] >> They own those books,
[35:09] >> right? Exactly. Many people own my books
[35:12] who haven't read them.
[35:13] >> Well, I've spent some time with it. I
[35:14] still need to pour through it uh again,
[35:17] but uh
[35:18] >> can't wait to wait to read Protocols, by
[35:20] the way.
[35:20] >> It's Oh, thanks. If nothing else,
[35:22] Protocols Will Cure Insomnia. The thing
[35:24] is almost 600 pages long. Thank you. Um
[35:26] I Your book's awesome and I I I spent
[35:30] some time with it. I want to spend more
[35:31] time with it. Um, in part because it
[35:33] marries theory with practical steps and
[35:35] prompts, not AI prompts, but the kind of
[35:37] prompts to really give oneself. So, this
[35:40] thing about leisure is fascinating.
[35:41] >> Yeah, leisure is really interesting.
[35:42] It's like that that tells you what you
[35:44] need to know about a culture, but also
[35:45] about a person in a way. And so, if you
[35:48] find somebody who's using their leisure
[35:50] time to meet animal appetites, that's
[35:53] one thing. if they're actually using it
[35:55] to for for personal betterment for
[35:58] personal betterment not career
[35:59] betterment not for the compensation
[36:01] actually comes from the worldly rewards
[36:02] there's four worldly rewards money power
[36:05] pleasure and honor and if you're doing
[36:08] something such that it doesn't reward
[36:10] you in one of those areas that actually
[36:12] comes from Aristotle and Aquinus etc
[36:14] then you're actually doing what he would
[36:16] call proper leisure you're doing proper
[36:18] leisure toward you know moral aspiration
[36:20] which is ultimately the most rewarding
[36:22] thing That's ultimately what will take
[36:24] you from the world of pleasure into the
[36:25] world of enjoyment and give you greater
[36:27] happiness. That's the theory and it's
[36:29] and it's it's actually been verified a
[36:31] lot in a lot of these ideas the best
[36:34] questions they come from the
[36:35] philosophers and then and then the
[36:37] structural mechanisms come from
[36:38] neuroscience and then the testing of
[36:40] these ideas comes from the behavioral
[36:42] sciences right the the experiments etc.
[36:45] Then of course applying them to your
[36:46] life is a different kettle of fish. And
[36:48] so what he says is that there's kind of
[36:50] three areas that make proper leisure and
[36:53] ultimate enjoyment. You want me to tell
[36:55] you the
[36:55] >> please. Okay.
[36:56] >> Number one is deepening relationships on
[36:59] purpose, man. I mean on purpose. And so
[37:01] leisure is this weekend I'm envisioning
[37:05] myself
[37:07] not touching my phone while I'm with my
[37:10] wife, right? Deepening my relationship,
[37:12] being fully present for my wife. and and
[37:16] I'm going to go someplace not because I
[37:17] want to chill on the beach, but because
[37:19] I want to be on the beach with the love
[37:20] of my life. So, deepening relationships
[37:22] on purpose with, you know, a real focus
[37:25] on that. The second is learning
[37:26] something you don't need to learn. And
[37:29] the third is actually developing
[37:30] yourself metaphysically. Is your
[37:32] spiritual, your religious life, or your
[37:34] philosophical life is is to transcend
[37:37] what's going on here for for no other
[37:38] reason than the fact that you seek
[37:39] transcendence. Those are the three areas
[37:41] of proper leisure. And that's how he
[37:43] would say, "I know that you're going
[37:45] from pleasure to enjoyment." That's how
[37:47] I know by based on what you're doing,
[37:50] even though you don't have to.
[37:51] >> I love this. I'll tell you several of
[37:54] the reasons why I love it. One is um
[37:56] people from time to time will say, "What
[37:58] do you do for fun?"
[37:59] >> I know.
[37:59] >> It's a very difficult question for me to
[38:01] answer because people
[38:03] >> But your work is fun, by the way.
[38:04] >> My work is so much fun. Like I'm reading
[38:06] this book about sunlight and how the
[38:07] dermatology world is revising their
[38:09] understanding about sun and skin cancer
[38:11] and um and I'm loving that. I love my I
[38:15] mean I could I could list it off but I I
[38:17] just say those things to just get people
[38:19] to think about what what they enjoy
[38:20] doing.
[38:21] >> But the word that you know keeps coming
[38:24] up in my mind because I have a hard time
[38:25] with the fun thing because yeah I do
[38:27] other things that are purely
[38:28] recreational is
[38:30] >> this word enrichment. I mean it sounds
[38:32] kind of you know uh you know like
[38:36] somebody's trying to be an academic when
[38:38] they say like like what do you do for
[38:40] enrichment? It doesn't it's not it's not
[38:42] as natural a question these days as like
[38:44] what do you do for fun it's like what do
[38:45] you do for your own enrichment it it it
[38:47] reshapes the question a little bit
[38:49] because the implication is it's not just
[38:51] about immediate pleasure
[38:53] >> which fun kind of
[38:54] >> kind of falls into the group of pleasure
[38:56] >> personal excellence.
[38:56] >> Yeah. you come out of you come out of it
[38:58] better,
[38:59] >> right?
[38:59] >> Not just for having exper experienced
[39:02] the the whatever it was the activity
[39:05] was, but like there's something carried
[39:06] forward into other things that you do
[39:08] and in a good way. And so the word
[39:10] enrichment, you know, feels good. It's
[39:11] the reason why even though I was in the
[39:13] sciences as an undergraduate, I you
[39:15] know, decided to take a course in Greek
[39:16] mythology and like loved it. Loved loved
[39:18] loved it.
[39:19] >> Was leisure
[39:19] >> and and it turns out it was neuroscience
[39:21] too, right? [laughter] You know, years
[39:22] later, like we talk about, you know, the
[39:24] myth of the cyclops is all about anger
[39:25] and it has everything to do with the
[39:27] lack of depth perception that when you
[39:29] have one eye versus two eyes. It turns
[39:31] out like the Greeks like really
[39:32] understood stereopsis and depth
[39:33] perception there. I couldn't help
[39:35] myself. In any case,
[39:36] >> that's interesting.
[39:37] >> So, like this notion of enrichment and
[39:39] and I love that in the example you gave
[39:42] of going to the beach uh with a friend
[39:44] or with a spouse or someone else you
[39:46] care about. It's not about your own
[39:48] experience of it. You said because not
[39:50] just because you want to be there, but
[39:51] because you're actually there. That's a
[39:54] that's a physical grounds for creating
[39:57] something else. So, it's not really
[39:58] about the beach. It's about what you
[40:00] leave the beach with. That's right. And
[40:02] it's not just memories of the beach. You
[40:04] actually both change as a consequence of
[40:06] being there. Maybe in small ways, maybe
[40:07] in big ways,
[40:08] >> but you you've enriched the
[40:10] relationship. And so, the beach becomes
[40:13] incidental. When people talk about
[40:15] wanting to go out drinking, what I want
[40:17] to know is is it about the drinking or
[40:19] is it the people you're drinking with?
[40:20] That's what it comes down to. Now, I I
[40:21] strongly recommend that people
[40:23] reconsider that decision. I mean, I've
[40:26] heard you two drinks a week is the safe
[40:28] level. I've got it, Andrew. I've got it.
[40:29] >> Yeah. More than that, it's probably not
[40:30] a good idea for most people.
[40:32] >> I'm at zero. You know, I'm I'm a
[40:34] non-drinker. Um because it's the right
[40:36] it's the right cadence for my life. But,
[40:38] you know, people who do use alcohol
[40:39] responsibly, I'm not I wish I were a
[40:42] person who could use alcohol
[40:43] responsibly. I'm not right. So, so I
[40:45] don't and I don't use it at all. But,
[40:47] you know, when people say I'm going to
[40:48] go out drinking, I mean, I I I don't
[40:50] know if that's pleasure or enjoyment. I
[40:52] don't know if that's animal impulse or
[40:54] moral aspiration. I need more
[40:56] information. I need to know the reason
[40:58] for that. When people are talking about
[41:00] getting a beach house, I'm going to get
[41:02] a beach house. I don't know whether or
[41:04] not that's animal impulse to towards
[41:07] social comparison toward actually a a
[41:10] scoreboard effect so I can actually feel
[41:12] like I mean something. That's all animal
[41:15] impulse. All it is that's just like your
[41:17] trogodite brain actually saying you're
[41:19] not
[41:19] >> you're not good enough unless you have a
[41:21] beach house like old Bill over there at
[41:22] the office, right? But on the other
[41:24] hand, if you tell me it's like I I got
[41:26] to create bait so that my kids and
[41:28] grandkids are here a lot. Okay, now I'm
[41:30] listening. Now I'm actually paying
[41:32] attention. And so a lot of things that
[41:33] people will say, I I need a little bit
[41:35] more information such that I can
[41:36] categorize it in the right way. Whether
[41:38] or not we're on the right side, we're on
[41:40] the animal impulse side or the moral
[41:42] aspiration side, whether we're on the
[41:43] pleasure side or the enjoyment side,
[41:45] whether it's actually going to bring
[41:46] happiness. I'm pausing um because I I
[41:51] have so many questions about this, but I
[41:53] want to make sure we touch on the other
[41:54] macronutrients because otherwise I I'm
[41:56] going to um
[41:58] >> I'm going to encourage you to give a a
[42:00] tutorial on how to really uh maximize
[42:02] every single choice in not just my life,
[42:05] listeners,
[42:05] >> enjoyment protocols. We should have
[42:07] leisure protocols.
[42:08] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. you know the we
[42:10] all know that like one of the major
[42:11] pillars is social connection and
[42:13] relationships but
[42:15] >> the idea that leisure is is part of
[42:17] that.
[42:17] >> Yeah.
[42:19] >> Uh as a substrate for enriching those is
[42:21] obvious once we hear it
[42:22] >> but it reframes everything. if um
[42:24] exercising with somebody, you know,
[42:27] turns out to be a way you deepen the
[42:28] relationship, which actually has been my
[42:30] experience with a lot of male friends,
[42:31] frankly. Like,
[42:32] >> yeah, totally.
[42:33] >> One of the best ways to get to know
[42:34] somebody in my experience is to have an
[42:36] intellectual conversation with them,
[42:37] like really deep dive with them or to go
[42:40] do something difficult. Yeah. Yeah.
[42:42] [laughter] Yeah. Rob, our produ producer
[42:44] and close close friend, he's sitting to
[42:45] my left right now. I mean, one of the
[42:47] first things we ever did was like go for
[42:48] a run where he kicked my butt.
[42:50] >> And by the way, a Vanderbilt graduate.
[42:52] Very pleased.
[42:53] places that [snorts]
[42:54] >> Yeah. And um I don't recommend people
[42:56] box, but years ago I boxed and I'd spar
[42:58] on Wednesday nights. Don't recommend it.
[43:00] Yes, I wore headgear. Yes, I probably
[43:01] took some damage. I don't recommend it.
[43:03] Um but you feel so close to people that
[43:07] you've actually tried to hurt and they
[43:09] tried to hurt you, but with rules
[43:11] >> in it's a it's an amazing it's very
[43:14] primitive and yet you there's a bond
[43:16] there that is obviously nonverbal. It's
[43:18] a lifelong bond. you see that person the
[43:21] next time and it's a like
[43:23] >> especially if they played fair and they
[43:24] hurt you. Yeah. You're like,
[43:26] >> "Yeah, like we know one another. I've
[43:29] seen you, you know, there's a respect
[43:32] level." I'm not suggesting people do
[43:33] this, but
[43:34] >> you added people in memory to a strong
[43:36] experience, thus rendering it enjoyable
[43:38] and being part of happiness. Yeah. In in
[43:40] point of fact, it wasn't strictly
[43:42] >> pleasurable, but that wasn't exactly the
[43:44] point.
[43:45] >> No.
[43:45] >> Yeah.
[43:45] >> No. The point was to to suffer together
[43:47] in some way. There's a great book by a
[43:49] guy named Sam Sheridan uh called A
[43:51] Fighter's Heart. He's actually a Harvard
[43:52] grad.
[43:52] >> Yeah.
[43:53] >> I think he was an art major there. His
[43:54] dad was a Navy Seals. Very interesting
[43:56] guy. And he has this joke that you know
[43:58] uh
[43:59] >> you know that sparring is like a
[44:01] >> it's like a one night stand or
[44:03] something. You you've like done
[44:04] something very intimate with someone you
[44:06] barely know. And so it has both a
[44:08] feeling of connection but it's also the
[44:10] illusion of connection.
[44:12] >> So he hits it better than I did. Don't
[44:14] run around and start sparring with your
[44:15] friends. Well, the military why it has
[44:16] it creates such, you know, bonds for
[44:18] life. I mean, my son's my son is a
[44:20] sniper, scout sniper in the US Marine
[44:22] Corps, and these are friends for life. I
[44:23] mean, these are guys who would literally
[44:25] give their lives for each other, who
[44:27] looked out for each other in very, very
[44:28] dangerous situations. And they were
[44:30] suffering together. Now, the word
[44:31] compassion in Latin means to suffer
[44:34] together.
[44:35] >> That's what it means to be compassionate
[44:37] with somebody to to suffer alongside
[44:39] that person. That's what it comes from.
[44:41] Um and it's you know it has this the
[44:42] passion of Christ in the Christian
[44:44] religion is all about the suffering of
[44:46] Christ. That's what it comes and and for
[44:48] to have compassion towards somebody to
[44:50] suffer with that person through that and
[44:52] when you even induce that suffering as
[44:53] dumb as it is beating each other up you
[44:55] know doing getting into the octagon and
[44:58] you know that that is what you're doing
[44:59] is this is this is the experience of
[45:01] compassion which gets us to a a
[45:04] primordial need to move beyond the
[45:06] animal impulse into the moral space that
[45:09] actually makes us quintessentially human
[45:11] that makes us fundamentally different
[45:12] than all the other beings that makes us
[45:14] the dominant species.
[45:16] By the way, it also renders us the most
[45:19] miserable of all these species as well,
[45:21] which is so interesting.
[45:22] >> There's some uh dark and uh terrible
[45:25] examples of this. And sometimes people
[45:26] will call it trauma bonding, like the
[45:28] sort of Siden Nancy story, like to they
[45:30] like kill them kill each other at the
[45:32] Chelsea Hotel in like a drug induced
[45:34] rage or but then like if you watch um
[45:37] that great movie with Phoenix and Reese
[45:39] Witherspoon, right? walk the line like
[45:40] their relationship between Johnny Cash
[45:43] and and uh
[45:45] >> June Carter, right, was um Jun Carter
[45:47] Cash, I think was eventually her her
[45:49] married name was it was a contentious
[45:51] one. It was like that it was the it was
[45:53] the feistiness. It was the fighting like
[45:55] they were forged in this challenge. She
[45:57] was divorced at a time when divorce
[45:58] wasn't
[45:59] >> um was really frowned upon and and she
[46:02] was religious and so there was there was
[46:04] just a lot of contention and then then
[46:06] there's this peace that they achieve in
[46:07] being together. But you always sense
[46:08] that it's like that that there's this
[46:13] >> recognition that that there's fight in
[46:15] them and they've been through it.
[46:17] >> And that's part of like we tend to we
[46:18] used to kind of hold up relationships
[46:20] like that. Now we like to see everything
[46:22] look perfectly
[46:24] >> smooth,
[46:25] >> right? But this gets back to like the
[46:26] marriage vows and this gets back to
[46:28] relationships of all kinds. It's the
[46:30] suffering.
[46:30] >> The suffering suffer with I'm going to
[46:32] suffer with my wife until I take my
[46:33] dying breath. And it's like because and
[46:36] we have a relationship.
[46:37] >> She's going to suffer with you. My god,
[46:38] you know the width is there. The both of
[46:40] you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. To
[46:41] be clear. Yeah.
[46:42] >> No, for sure. I mean, it's no walk in
[46:44] the park being married to me. That's for
[46:46] sure. I mean, it's a pain for sure. But
[46:48] she will. I mean, this is like the bond
[46:50] that we've actually taken for life. And
[46:51] that and and central to the the and we
[46:54] have great enjoyment. It's fantastic.
[46:57] But that enjoyment is everything to do
[46:58] with the fact that it's pleasurable.
[47:00] It's interesting. It's it's fascinating.
[47:03] It's funny. And it's also hard and it's
[47:06] also there's a lot of suffering and
[47:08] there's a lot of it's dagger strong. I
[47:09] mean my wife is Spanish so you have to
[47:10] understand that there's a high level of
[47:12] complexity and suffering you know there
[47:14] >> and words per word density per moment.
[47:16] >> Yeah. Exactly. Right. And we have a
[47:17] 50/50 Spanish and English marriage which
[47:20] means that we can you know we can suffer
[47:22] in you know two languages is what it
[47:25] comes down to. But the truth is you know
[47:26] that's what that's what people need to
[47:28] expect. You know that's what people need
[47:30] to expect that it's like okay let's
[47:31] suffer together baby. Come on honey.
[47:34] Let's just let's just bring it on. And
[47:36] that's a beautiful thing.
[47:37] >> Mhm.
[47:38] >> That's really what it means.
[47:39] >> And people talk so much about peace and
[47:41] ease as the goal.
[47:43] >> Yeah.
[47:43] >> I'm not I'm hearing some of that, but
[47:44] I'm hearing a bunch of other things too
[47:46] here.
[47:47] >> I get it. And and particularly true that
[47:49] that men, they want peace at home. They
[47:53] do want peace at home. And and and I see
[47:56] that, by the way, women want peace at
[47:58] home, too. But you're not going to get
[48:00] peace all the time. You don't want peace
[48:02] all the time. You want a full life,
[48:04] fully lived. You want to be It's like
[48:06] the to be fully alive. What does that
[48:09] mean? That means the whole range of your
[48:10] emotions. You're using all the parts of
[48:12] your lyic system. We're wonderfully
[48:14] made, Andrew. And it's just like I I
[48:16] want the dorsal anterior singulate
[48:18] cortex to give me this sense of
[48:19] suffering and grief when I'm feeling
[48:21] social exclusion or the sense of loss.
[48:23] You know, I want the insula to be highly
[48:26] active when I have this sense of disgust
[48:28] or whatever it happens to be or the
[48:30] amygdala to be active with fear and
[48:31] anger, etc. I want that. I want my brain
[48:33] to work the way it's actually supposed
[48:34] to. I mean, I want to suffer and I'm
[48:38] going to if I'm actually being fully
[48:39] alive and and if I'm taking the chances
[48:42] and if I'm doing the things that I
[48:43] actually need to do because that is
[48:45] ingrained in the full experience of what
[48:48] human happiness is properly understood.
[48:50] I'd like to take a quick break and
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[50:08] So we have the second chapter in the
[50:10] book that maybe we write together.
[50:11] Although you're the real writer. I
[50:13] confess I I I yet to decide I'm a writer
[50:17] which you're good at when you do, man.
[50:19] >> Oh, thanks man. [laughter] Appreciate
[50:20] it. One will be one chapter will be on
[50:22] leisure.
[50:22] >> Yeah.
[50:23] >> You've told us that how one spends their
[50:25] leisure time is a is a critical window
[50:27] into self and um and the other uh will
[50:30] be to how to suffer more.
[50:32] >> Yeah.
[50:33] >> In in pursuit of moral aspiration
[50:36] >> but also how to experience pleasure in
[50:39] pursuit of moral aspiration.
[50:41] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. So we've gotten
[50:44] through enjoyment.
[50:45] >> Yeah. Let's let's talk about uh
[50:47] satisfaction
[50:49] >> because [clears throat] because it
[50:50] sounds similar but it sounds like deeper
[50:53] more pervasive more like an I don't
[50:56] define a satisfaction.
[50:57] >> Yeah. So I mean again and the the
[50:59] definition everything is in the
[51:00] definitions and and one of the problems
[51:02] with happiness is that everybody can
[51:03] they define it in different ways and
[51:05] etc. So I I try to stay out of the
[51:07] linguistic wars
[51:09] >> and
[51:09] >> it's like [clears throat] consciousness.
[51:10] Yeah.
[51:11] >> No neuroscientist really wants to talk
[51:13] about consciousness anymore because it's
[51:15] like it's so circular.
[51:16] >> It for sure. Yeah.
[51:17] >> Absolutely. It's being awareness and
[51:19] being aware of the fact that you're
[51:20] aware because you're aware or something.
[51:21] I what you know [laughter]
[51:23] >> many billions of dollars and euros in
[51:25] particular. That's a joke aimed at one
[51:26] Swiss scientist in particular.
[51:28] >> You've read Michael Poland's new book.
[51:29] >> I haven't read the new books, but I I
[51:32] think the world of him.
[51:33] >> He's fantastic. And the new book is
[51:34] actually the book to read for people who
[51:36] are not either, you know, philosophers
[51:38] or neuroscientists or or even
[51:40] psychologists for that matter on a world
[51:43] awaits is what it's called. I really I
[51:44] I've never met him, but I love the book.
[51:47] I think it's absolutely fantastic. And
[51:48] at the end of the book, you know a lot
[51:49] more and you still don't understand what
[51:51] consciousness is. You don't understand
[51:52] what it is. It's it's a lot of things.
[51:56] It's many things. It's sentience and
[51:59] it's feelings and it's awareness of
[52:02] others and it's awareness of yourself
[52:05] and we don't know where it is in the
[52:06] brain and oh my goodness but the truth
[52:08] is that that's one of the problems in in
[52:10] the field that I have too which is the
[52:12] the
[52:13] >> the definition of terms and satisfaction
[52:15] is one of these things satisfaction as I
[52:17] define it as many people define it is
[52:19] the joy that you get from an
[52:21] accomplishment after struggle that
[52:25] satisfaction so the satisfaction that
[52:27] you got from your PhD was proportionate
[52:29] to the suffering that actually went into
[52:31] getting your PhD and mine too, right?
[52:32] And they were like, "Oh man, I'm not
[52:34] doing that again." But it was so
[52:36] awesome. And you know, I think about,
[52:37] you know,
[52:37] >> but it was so awesome. Those those are
[52:39] the key words.
[52:40] >> I know. And it's like I talked to, you
[52:41] know, my kids my kids in the military
[52:44] there. I mean, being a Marine is no,
[52:46] you're not screwing around.
[52:47] >> And you know, I saw what my kids went
[52:49] through and you know, the infantry
[52:52] training battalion and the scout sniper
[52:54] indoctrination. And my daughter is, you
[52:56] know, and she's an officer. She actually
[52:58] had got her first salute from her
[52:59] brother. He's 6'5 and she's 4'11. It was
[53:02] awesome. You know, actually, your older
[53:04] brother has to salute you. It's great.
[53:06] So cool.
[53:06] >> Yeah, it's great. But, you know, it's
[53:08] it's people talk when I say, you know,
[53:10] tell me the story of your success.
[53:12] >> I mean, the people make jokes about it.
[53:13] You remember David Ko, one of the Koch
[53:15] brothers, you know, of of KO Industries
[53:17] in Witchah, Kansas. And he was a very,
[53:19] very funny guy. And he used to say,
[53:21] people say, "How did you get so rich?"
[53:23] And I say, "Well, it started when I was
[53:25] 12 years old and I found an apple and I
[53:27] was shining it up and I had paid a
[53:29] nickel for it and somebody offered me a
[53:30] dime and I said, "Oh, it's a 100% profit
[53:32] margin." So, I went back and bought two
[53:34] apples and I doubled my money. And I
[53:36] started doing this every day and every
[53:37] week, doubling my money and doubling my
[53:39] money. And you can do the math week
[53:41] after week and year after year. And
[53:42] finally, my father died, left me $100
[53:44] million. [laughter]
[53:47] >> That's good. And the reason that that's
[53:49] funny is because that flicks the
[53:51] parhipple gyrus and it makes you feel
[53:53] like that surprise like in every joke,
[53:55] right? But the reason it's funny is
[53:57] because real satisfaction from your
[53:58] accomplishments comes from the struggle,
[54:01] not from the accolades. That's what it
[54:03] really comes to because you earned it.
[54:05] And human beings are made to earn their
[54:07] success. This is the reason that they'll
[54:09] convince themselves that when somebody's
[54:11] giving them absolute utter large that
[54:14] they actually earned it in some way. If
[54:16] you want to get have your career
[54:18] destroyed as a politician, go to a bunch
[54:20] of senior citizens and tell them you're
[54:22] getting a lot back more back from social
[54:24] security than you ever paid in. Your
[54:27] career is over because you basically
[54:29] just, you know, flicked their
[54:31] parippocample gyrus in a very unpleasant
[54:33] way. You kicked it, right?
[54:35] >> So cool.
[54:35] >> And they don't like it. and and and so
[54:37] so the truth of the matter is that that
[54:40] he was saying that because the the
[54:43] answer that people are expecting is I
[54:45] suffered and I had three bankruptcies
[54:48] and you know I almost lost my marriage
[54:50] and I had to raid my kids' college fund
[54:53] and I was afraid you know like Bernie
[54:55] Marcus talks about the Home Depot and
[54:57] they were down their last dollar and it
[54:59] was and it was a it was grim is how he
[55:02] talked about it and and so that's really
[55:04] really important and that's one of the
[55:05] reasons that satisfaction which is so
[55:07] important you know we got to make
[55:08] progress why arrival leads to
[55:11] frustration but but progress toward
[55:13] goals is what is how we're wired purpose
[55:16] in life comes from goals of direction
[55:18] and progress called toward purpose and
[55:20] goals that's what purpose where our
[55:22] purpose in life actually comes from and
[55:24] and so the result of it is that we need
[55:26] to to have this sense that we're we're
[55:28] sacrificing for something that we're
[55:30] doing something that that that's bigger
[55:32] than who we are and we're willing to
[55:34] give something up. That's really one of
[55:37] the great secrets. It's one of the
[55:38] reasons also that when people hit their
[55:40] goals, they get so depressed is because
[55:42] there's no more progress. You know, it's
[55:44] why Olympic athletes are so likely to
[55:46] fall into a clinical depression after
[55:47] they win their their, you know, their
[55:49] gold medal. And why people are so when
[55:51] they win a billion dollars, they're
[55:52] like, I guess I need another billion. I
[55:56] guess I need, you know, because I don't
[55:57] I'm not feeling it, man. Because we're
[55:59] we're actually made for this progress.
[56:00] But the progress entails the struggle.
[56:02] We we judge your students, my students.
[56:05] There's no satisfaction that comes if
[56:07] they cheat on an exam. But if they work
[56:09] hard and get an A, that's very very
[56:11] satisfying. And you teach your kids
[56:12] this. Don't eat before dinner. It's not
[56:15] because of nutrition. It's because you
[56:17] want their synaptically plastic little
[56:19] brains to register the fact that that if
[56:21] they come to dinner hungry, dinner's
[56:23] better.
[56:24] >> Definitely.
[56:24] >> And you you you tell Junior, you know,
[56:26] don't eat before dinner because it's
[56:27] unhealthy. But if you were being honest,
[56:29] you'd say, I want you to suffer. That's
[56:31] why you can't have a snack.
[56:33] >> A few years ago, I was out a lot on the
[56:35] internet saying, you know, dopamine that
[56:37] comes without effort before it is is
[56:40] very pernicious. And um
[56:42] >> so true.
[56:42] >> I stand behind that. But some people
[56:44] like took the interpretation too far. It
[56:47] in part in an attempt to malign me,
[56:48] which is fine. Like, you know, I'm out
[56:50] there, you know. Yeah, sure. That that
[56:51] comes with the territory. But they it
[56:54] sort of implied I didn't have the
[56:55] language for it, but now I do, thanks to
[56:58] you. It's sort of implied that I don't
[56:59] believe in leisure,
[57:00] >> right? I don't want to return us to the
[57:02] first macronutrient um in a way that
[57:04] distracts us, but I think this is
[57:05] appropriate now. So, of course, leisure
[57:07] is great, but I would say leisure is way
[57:11] better when you've been working hard.
[57:13] And and so if you've been working hard
[57:15] towards something that has its own
[57:16] intrinsic reward, you the work itself
[57:18] can become intrinsically rewarding or
[57:20] not. You know, there are a lot of things
[57:22] I did in graduate school that absolutely
[57:23] loved the process. And there were some
[57:25] of them that like
[57:27] >> the only word for it is it sucked.
[57:29] >> It just it sucked.
[57:31] >> Allnighters like two days recording
[57:34] experiments and like just like breathing
[57:36] all that is in the room and it was just
[57:38] was like it sucked. But it and it was
[57:41] awesome. But there are forms of leisure.
[57:43] Like on those Fridays when we finished
[57:44] those experiments, I would drive out to
[57:47] this um this this orchard outside of
[57:50] Davis where I did graduate school to
[57:52] Winters and I would just there would be
[57:53] four phones. I would just listen to
[57:54] music in my car
[57:56] >> and I just felt like I felt like I'd
[57:59] been transported in time. That's right.
[58:00] >> And I felt connected to all the people
[58:03] who had worked a hard week and then were
[58:04] just listening to music in their car.
[58:07] And then eventually my girlfriend and I
[58:08] would drive out there and now I could
[58:09] share that experience with her and she
[58:11] was a scientist and worked really really
[58:13] hard too. Um arguably even harder than I
[58:16] was because the experiment she was doing
[58:17] took took a yet another level of of um
[58:20] persistence that really remarkable. So
[58:23] it's not that um saying that effort has
[58:25] to be there before dopamine is like
[58:27] means you're a onetrack like
[58:29] self-optimization junkie,
[58:31] >> right? It's just an important pie slice
[58:34] in in being a like a good human being in
[58:37] my opinion. So like so I kind of bristle
[58:39] at the idea that a concept like that
[58:42] could be construed as as um
[58:46] anti-pleasure but in a sense it's really
[58:50] like there's something about the human
[58:51] mind where we want we hear one piece of
[58:53] this we hear about one pie slice we say
[58:56] oh so that means like
[58:58] >> leisure doesn't exist for this person
[59:00] but but what I love about your work and
[59:01] what you're telling us today is that
[59:03] >> it's really about the complete pie chart
[59:06] >> it's not about
[59:08] working with our with our brains,
[59:09] working with our biology. We are built
[59:11] to earn our rewards.
[59:13] >> We are built to earn our success.
[59:15] >> We have no concept of what anything is
[59:17] worth if we don't earn our success. And
[59:20] and you know the the reason that we want
[59:22] to do things, we think that you know
[59:23] that a a Snickers bar gives you
[59:25] pleasure. No, no, no, no, no. It's
[59:27] actually the neurochemicals that are
[59:28] giving you pleasure that are
[59:29] [clears throat] actually making you feel
[59:30] this pleasure. It just happens to that
[59:33] through the the way that the brain
[59:34] works. Getting your PhD didn't give you
[59:36] pleasure per se. There was nothing about
[59:37] the piece of paper. It was actually the
[59:39] knowledge that you had done this thing.
[59:42] And so, one of the greatest secrets to
[59:44] excellence and success in people's lives
[59:45] is the sense of earning it. And that
[59:48] means making peace with suffering,
[59:50] making peace with with pain, making
[59:53] peace with struggle is what it comes
[59:55] down to. Now, that doesn't mean and and
[59:57] one of the biggest mistakes that strive
[59:59] often make is that it's all struggle.
[1:00:00] You mean you remember this the the the
[1:00:03] not discredited but complicated Walter
[1:00:06] Michelle marshmallow experiments at your
[1:00:08] fine institution and and and what they
[1:00:11] you know the followup you know the kids
[1:00:12] who ate the marshmallow within 5 minutes
[1:00:15] they were they had no impulse control
[1:00:17] and they went on to actually get worse
[1:00:18] grades and worse jobs etc. And the 20%
[1:00:21] of the kids in the marshmallow
[1:00:22] experiment who were able to not eat the
[1:00:24] marshmallow and they got the second
[1:00:25] marshmallow they did much better in
[1:00:26] life. And the whole point was the
[1:00:28] deferral of gratification is a big
[1:00:30] signal of how well you're actually going
[1:00:32] to do. One of the biggest problems the
[1:00:34] strivers have and I'm speaking to all
[1:00:35] the stvers watching us right now is that
[1:00:38] they don't know what their marshmallow
[1:00:39] even is. And so they're just going to
[1:00:41] wait their whole lives and that's not
[1:00:43] what you've been saying. That's not what
[1:00:45] you're talking about to never never
[1:00:47] never drive out into the out to winters.
[1:00:50] to never actually listen to the music,
[1:00:53] to never actually wait for the second
[1:00:54] marshmallow and enjoy that second
[1:00:56] marshmallow. That's a mistake, too.
[1:00:58] That's actually a huge mistake. But the
[1:01:00] whole point is we're trying to find the
[1:01:01] golden mean between earning it and not
[1:01:05] earning it. That doing enough and
[1:01:07] struggling enough and then actually
[1:01:08] taking the reward and then starting
[1:01:10] again. This actually feeds into a lot of
[1:01:12] experiences that people have. A big part
[1:01:14] of my work is how to age well, about how
[1:01:16] to get happier as you age. You
[1:01:18] >> do tell.
[1:01:19] >> Yeah. I mean, it's super important. And
[1:01:20] part of the reason is because, man, I'm
[1:01:22] no spring chicken. And and and and this
[1:01:24] is me search, right, for all of us.
[1:01:26] We're always doing me search instead of
[1:01:28] research. And so, I want to know how can
[1:01:30] I be happier at 60 than 50. And now I
[1:01:32] want to know how I can be happy years
[1:01:34] down the road at 70 instead of 60. I
[1:01:37] want to know how to retire. And so, when
[1:01:39] I'm giving people advice, I'm doing
[1:01:40] public education about these things
[1:01:41] because I've been trying to answer these
[1:01:42] questions for myself. Retirement is a
[1:01:45] classic case of screwing up the
[1:01:47] satisfaction part of happiness. It's
[1:01:49] like, I'm going to work and work and
[1:01:50] work and work. I'm going to be a
[1:01:51] miserable sob and then at 65 I'm going
[1:01:54] to stop completely and just goof around.
[1:01:56] That's the recipe for misery all the way
[1:01:59] through because it was no fun. It was
[1:02:01] all suffering without reward and then
[1:02:04] it's all reward without suffering.
[1:02:06] That's neurohysiologically unound, but
[1:02:10] it's also philosophically unound. it
[1:02:12] doesn't actually make sense. So, I help
[1:02:14] people retire constantly, but I also try
[1:02:16] to help them have the best life as they
[1:02:18] do to move through the course of their
[1:02:19] careers, do what they're actually
[1:02:21] naturally good at that is both hard and
[1:02:23] rewarding, which changes over the course
[1:02:25] of your career. There's there's a lot of
[1:02:27] research on that, but it all gets into
[1:02:29] how can I maintain satisfaction. The
[1:02:31] mystery comes when we actually do get
[1:02:34] the thing that we actually want and then
[1:02:36] we find that it leaves us cold.
[1:02:38] >> That seems like a real tyranny. like
[1:02:41] mother nature had a trick up her sleeve
[1:02:43] which kind of she did. I mean you
[1:02:45] actually people if I can get that watch
[1:02:48] that car that marriage then I'll be
[1:02:51] happy forever. I mean guys will say to
[1:02:52] women you know if you marry me you'll
[1:02:55] make me happy forever. That's not right.
[1:02:58] You know it doesn't matter what she says
[1:03:00] when you propose. It doesn't matter what
[1:03:02] she says on her wedding day. It's what
[1:03:03] you say to each other over the course of
[1:03:04] your entire marriage
[1:03:06] >> that actually will give you net net the
[1:03:09] best possible life. That's why MC Jagger
[1:03:12] saying I can't get no satisfaction. He
[1:03:14] should have saying I can't keep no
[1:03:15] satisfaction. And that that's a whole
[1:03:18] different as we say in Seattle a whole
[1:03:20] another problem mystery.
[1:03:23] >> Is that a Seattleism?
[1:03:24] >> I guess so. I don't know. as I did.
[1:03:26] >> There's so many articles out there and
[1:03:29] websites and blogs that are like
[1:03:31] >> the six things that people say on their
[1:03:34] deathbed. Nobody says, "I wish I worked
[1:03:36] more." I don't know. My dad, he's in his
[1:03:39] early 80s and he's still rocking and he
[1:03:41] loves his work, right?
[1:03:42] >> And he loves his wife and he loves his
[1:03:44] kids and he loves his coffee and he
[1:03:45] loves his meditation. He loves life.
[1:03:47] >> He's a happy guy.
[1:03:48] >> And he would say like work has been a
[1:03:50] he's giving just still working,
[1:03:53] consuming ideas, giving lectures. He I
[1:03:55] think he would say he was really glad he
[1:03:58] worked as much as he did, not more than
[1:04:00] that.
[1:04:01] >> But these lists to me are not useful,
[1:04:03] whether it's about work or whether it's
[1:04:05] about anything because the lists to me
[1:04:08] are really about the question when I
[1:04:12] look back on my life, I want to be able
[1:04:14] to say blank. Okay, I feel like that
[1:04:18] analysis peeled back to like when I
[1:04:20] finish my college degree, I want to be
[1:04:22] able to say, "All right, that can inform
[1:04:24] some choices going forward. Make good
[1:04:25] friends, got enriched myself
[1:04:27] intellectually, etc., etc. didn't, you
[1:04:29] know, got healthier as opposed to less
[1:04:31] healthy." You could do that, but it's
[1:04:34] not I feel like it's the wrong question.
[1:04:35] >> Yeah.
[1:04:36] >> Like it's the wrong thing when I look
[1:04:37] back on my life. I like how about now
[1:04:40] and the decisions you can make today,
[1:04:41] this week, this month, this year.
[1:04:43] because that's how you end up in a place
[1:04:44] where
[1:04:45] >> and let's face it most likely those last
[1:04:47] moments they could be very peaceful and
[1:04:49] beautiful but you don't know
[1:04:51] >> so we we imagine this kind of like
[1:04:53] before the curtains closed moment that
[1:04:56] some people get
[1:04:57] >> but I don't think most people get that
[1:05:00] I've watched people die it's not it's
[1:05:02] usually not like that it's I feel like
[1:05:05] we tend to integrate our levels of
[1:05:06] satisfaction pleasure lack pain etc on a
[1:05:09] much shorter time scale so is there a
[1:05:11] better set of questions questions and
[1:05:13] answers that we can come up with for
[1:05:15] living in the now so that we are
[1:05:17] steering right through
[1:05:20] the more of the time that we have
[1:05:21] between now and whenever it is that that
[1:05:23] curtain closes.
[1:05:24] >> Yes, for sure. There's a lot actually on
[1:05:26] this and there's it touches on a couple
[1:05:27] of different things. Now, to begin with,
[1:05:29] this really gets into the third
[1:05:30] macronutrient, which is meaning and and
[1:05:33] what what are we doing to understand the
[1:05:35] meaning of our lives? Ultimately that
[1:05:37] knowledge is the most important
[1:05:38] macronutrient the most philosophical the
[1:05:41] most I mean it gets closest to the you
[1:05:43] know the the problem the hard problem of
[1:05:44] consciousness to to use Chowmer's his
[1:05:47] his his formulation on this etc etc but
[1:05:50] there's a lot that goes into it to begin
[1:05:51] with it's you know it's like these are
[1:05:53] David Brooks talks about no no relation
[1:05:56] friend but no relation he talks about
[1:05:58] resume versus eulogy virtues and you
[1:06:01] know you it's true you know it's
[1:06:03] probably better if you don't imagine
[1:06:05] people at your funeral saying he had 5
[1:06:07] million miles on Delta. I mean, that's
[1:06:10] probably
[1:06:10] >> I got some friends who are like really
[1:06:12] into their points on their cars. It's a
[1:06:14] video game. It's an adultish.
[1:06:16] >> Yeah. They're trying to count their
[1:06:18] scoreboard. And and part of the reason
[1:06:19] is because that's that's a sense of
[1:06:20] satisfaction, you know? It's it's
[1:06:22] they're trying to get that they they
[1:06:24] want to make progress, progress toward a
[1:06:25] goal, goals and direction, making
[1:06:27] progress. We're progressoriented
[1:06:29] animals, which is why the scoreboard is
[1:06:30] so important. The trouble is that when
[1:06:32] once you run up the scoreboard after a
[1:06:34] certain point, I mean, you die and stay
[1:06:36] dead and you realize that nobody
[1:06:38] actually cares. And so if all anybody
[1:06:40] talks about is this is this score this
[1:06:42] this trivial scoreboard, which is
[1:06:46] frequent flyer miles or money in a bank
[1:06:48] account, right? Or or any of these other
[1:06:51] worldly things that's a problem. And
[1:06:52] that really leads to the first criterion
[1:06:54] for what actually is going to lead to
[1:06:57] regret and what isn't. And that that's a
[1:06:59] deep philosophical thing that has has a
[1:07:02] lot of roots in in in classical
[1:07:04] philosophy but but also a lot of
[1:07:06] behavioral science behind it as well. So
[1:07:08] Aristotle v visav St. Thomas Aquinas in
[1:07:11] in the 13th century he he asserted that
[1:07:15] we want to be happy. Okay, fair this is
[1:07:19] pretty good. Now he his definition of
[1:07:20] happiness was beatitudo
[1:07:23] which is the the the luminescence of
[1:07:25] presence of god right to the
[1:07:27] relationship with god. Other people
[1:07:29] define it in different ways who are not
[1:07:30] traditionally religious but I think
[1:07:32] everybody would agree yeah we want to be
[1:07:34] happy. He said that to do that I mean
[1:07:38] you you have a tendency to to to follow
[1:07:40] your animal impulses. So far so good.
[1:07:42] Gets back to an early part of the
[1:07:44] conversation. And he said, "Your animal
[1:07:45] impulses tell you one fundamental lie."
[1:07:49] And that fundamental lie is that these
[1:07:52] the following four things when they
[1:07:54] beguile you and you get them that you'll
[1:07:57] be actually happy and you'll be finally
[1:07:59] satisfied. You'll finally be there.
[1:08:01] Those four things are money, resources,
[1:08:04] power, which is influence over other
[1:08:06] people, pleasure, which also is comfort
[1:08:09] or security, right? or honor which means
[1:08:13] you know for you and me as academics
[1:08:14] it's like hey that's Andrew Hubman he
[1:08:16] wrote that paper in the journal of you
[1:08:18] know seven dimensional you know
[1:08:20] disappearing manifolds or you know some
[1:08:22] academic journal nobody's ever heard of
[1:08:24] but still academic prestige admiration
[1:08:26] whatever it happens to be those are
[1:08:28] beguiling idols that if you pursue those
[1:08:32] things as an end per se there's nothing
[1:08:33] evil about them they can be used for
[1:08:35] great good but if you use them as an end
[1:08:38] per se that's when you'll wind up in
[1:08:40] trouble. That's the problem that we
[1:08:43] actually get. So they say, nobody says,
[1:08:45] I wish I'd worked more. What they should
[1:08:46] say is nobody says, I wish I'd gotten a
[1:08:49] little bit more famous. I wish I had
[1:08:51] had, you know, a million more dollars in
[1:08:54] my 401k that I have no idea what's going
[1:08:57] to actually happen to it. That's really
[1:08:58] what they're saying. And so back up from
[1:09:00] that and to for us to be happier, we
[1:09:03] need to assess whether or not we are
[1:09:05] serving these worldly idols. And that's
[1:09:07] incredibly good behavioral science
[1:09:09] because that is an almost perfect uh
[1:09:12] taxonomy of the things that we that we
[1:09:15] actually chase. I have a game I play
[1:09:17] with my students at HBS. They don't know
[1:09:19] what their idol is. They don't know what
[1:09:21] it is. And again, I got nothing against
[1:09:23] money. I think money can be does
[1:09:25] wonderful things. Jobs, opportunity,
[1:09:27] growth, taxes, philanthropy. There's
[1:09:29] nothing wrong with power. Influence
[1:09:32] other people wielded in a virtuous way.
[1:09:34] Pleasure. I mean pleasure leads to
[1:09:37] babies. So great fame. You can refract
[1:09:41] your fame. I mean there are lots and
[1:09:42] lots of people I promise you Andrew
[1:09:44] there are lots of people pursuing their
[1:09:45] PhDs right now because of your fame
[1:09:47] which is a beautiful and a good thing
[1:09:49] for humanity. The problem is it'll hurt
[1:09:51] you if one of these things is your
[1:09:54] primary objective is your primary goal
[1:09:57] and you endow it with with mythical
[1:10:00] power. So I play a game with them.
[1:10:02] What's my idol? They don't know. They
[1:10:04] don't know what their idol is. You want
[1:10:05] to play?
[1:10:06] >> Yeah.
[1:10:06] >> Want to play? What's my idol?
[1:10:08] >> Yeah, I'm a little scared, but let's do
[1:10:09] it.
[1:10:09] >> Let's do it.
[1:10:10] >> I'd like to take a quick break to
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[1:11:15] Right now, David is offering a deal
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[1:11:20] know what your idol is and again what
[1:11:22] Aquinus suggests and what modern social
[1:11:24] science absolutely verifies is that
[1:11:28] again nothing wrong with these things
[1:11:29] but if you pursue this this winds up
[1:11:32] being the source of your later
[1:11:33] bitterness and regret. The reason is
[1:11:35] because when you pursue these things
[1:11:36] you're doing it at cost and the cost is
[1:11:39] almost always love.
[1:11:40] >> Love is the secret to happiness. To love
[1:11:42] and be loved is what we want. And when
[1:11:45] you pursue something that's not real,
[1:11:47] that's not alive, then you're you're
[1:11:49] sacrificing opportunities to love and be
[1:11:51] loved if you pursue it as a goal, per
[1:11:53] se. But when you know what your idol is,
[1:11:55] you'll still make mistakes. You're still
[1:11:56] going to mess up. You're still going to
[1:11:57] be miserable a lot, but you will
[1:12:00] sometimes avoid the error and which is
[1:12:03] incredibly powerful. The way to play
[1:12:05] this game is to eliminate because you
[1:12:07] always do elimination when you're trying
[1:12:08] to do these things. It's much more
[1:12:10] robust. It's actually better.
[1:12:12] Eliminate the idol that you don't have
[1:12:15] one by one by one. It's going to get
[1:12:16] harder as we go along. It's going to
[1:12:18] start off really really easy. I can even
[1:12:20] make predictions about you about what
[1:12:22] what you would eliminate, but eliminate
[1:12:24] them until you until you've got the last
[1:12:26] one. And that's the one that's most
[1:12:27] likely to beguile you and lead you down
[1:12:29] the wrong road. So, money,
[1:12:32] resources, power, pleasure,
[1:12:35] fame, or adoration of other people. You
[1:12:38] you're going to get rid of one. And this
[1:12:39] doesn't mean you don't have it. It just
[1:12:41] means you're the population average.
[1:12:42] >> Get get rid of one of those.
[1:12:44] >> Yeah. If you got rid of money, for
[1:12:45] example, you say, "I don't care about
[1:12:46] it." That just means you're the most
[1:12:48] average American economically, which by
[1:12:50] world standards is unbelievable. And
[1:12:52] historical standards is fabulously
[1:12:53] wealthy.
[1:12:54] >> So you said it was money.
[1:12:55] >> Uhhuh.
[1:12:57] >> Power,
[1:12:57] >> pleasure. And pleasure can also be
[1:12:59] comfort or security,
[1:13:01] >> right? Or and and honor, which is
[1:13:04] prestige or fame or adoration or
[1:13:05] whatever it happens to be or respect.
[1:13:07] >> And power can be uh benevolent too,
[1:13:09] right?
[1:13:09] >> Totally. All these all could be great
[1:13:11] because the most virtuous happy people
[1:13:13] have these things.
[1:13:14] >> Yeah,
[1:13:15] >> they have a lot of these things.
[1:13:16] >> Yeah. I don't I don't care about uh I
[1:13:19] don't care much about um the notion of
[1:13:21] like honor and accolades. In fact, just
[1:13:23] as a very brief anecdote, it was right.
[1:13:26] I'd been tenured for maybe three, four
[1:13:28] years. Yeah. And I was struggling
[1:13:30] financially as a professor despite what
[1:13:32] people might think about Stanford and I
[1:13:34] was happy to one of those. And so I had
[1:13:36] a conversation with uh my then chair or
[1:13:39] was it vice chair? And he said well you
[1:13:41] know at some point
[1:13:42] >> you know you'll be chair and then of the
[1:13:44] department because it's rotating chair.
[1:13:46] I'm still in this department by the way.
[1:13:47] We'll see if I still am at the end of
[1:13:48] this conversation. What what the heck?
[1:13:50] And he said you know it comes with a a
[1:13:51] pay increase. And I was like, really?
[1:13:53] And I I thought about I'd seen what
[1:13:55] happened to chairs of departments
[1:13:57] couldn't focus too much on science. A
[1:13:59] totally it's a um punishment disguised
[1:14:01] as an honor.
[1:14:02] >> It's a punishment to any real scientist,
[1:14:04] but they may but they cloak it and they
[1:14:06] say, "No, this is service to the
[1:14:07] department."
[1:14:08] >> And that's true,
[1:14:09] >> right?
[1:14:12] >> Some people are exceptional at I have a
[1:14:13] close friend of mine for childhood. He's
[1:14:14] a chair. And but the chair needs certain
[1:14:16] attributes
[1:14:17] >> that that um are important. And I and so
[1:14:20] my the response out of my mouth was how
[1:14:22] do I make sure I never become chair?
[1:14:25] [laughter]
[1:14:26] Well, so I think now it's very unlikely
[1:14:28] I'll be chair of the department. I'm not
[1:14:29] around enough. But um [clears throat]
[1:14:31] like how do I make absolutely sure that
[1:14:33] I'm like not like like I'll do anything
[1:14:37] to not be chair by virtue of the fact
[1:14:38] that my dad's a scientist and I grew up
[1:14:40] seeing a lot of scientists and hearing
[1:14:42] about a lot of luminaries of science. I
[1:14:43] heard I heard this story about Richard
[1:14:45] Fineman, the great Richard Fineman where
[1:14:47] apparently I don't know if this is true
[1:14:49] or not, but he was elected into the
[1:14:50] National Academy of Sciences and I think
[1:14:52] at the inaugural dinner he said like to
[1:14:54] someone like, "Well, what happens now?"
[1:14:56] And they go, "Oh, you elect other people
[1:14:57] in." And he goes, "Wait, so this is like
[1:14:59] a club where like we pin medals on each
[1:15:00] other." He go and he goes, "I quit.
[1:15:03] [laughter] If it's not true, it's
[1:15:04] awesome. If it's true, it's awesome."
[1:15:05] That's funny.
[1:15:06] >> And and I knew
[1:15:08] >> that true or not, what the what the
[1:15:10] story illustrates is that like those
[1:15:12] honors mean nothing. In fact, the most
[1:15:15] important thing about a Nobel Prize, I
[1:15:17] believe, is that it allows the winner in
[1:15:20] addition to the value of the discovery,
[1:15:21] but it allows the winner to be a great
[1:15:23] fundraiser for other people at the
[1:15:24] university.
[1:15:26] >> That's it.
[1:15:27] >> Yeah.
[1:15:28] >> And so, and the discovery obviously, but
[1:15:31] um anyway, so honor doesn't really like
[1:15:33] like I'm not interested in medals or
[1:15:34] things. I got a PhD because I needed one
[1:15:36] to get to know.
[1:15:37] >> But you become super famous as a public
[1:15:38] intellectual. Is that important? Does
[1:15:40] that motivate you? Because that's, you
[1:15:41] know, that's a different kettle of fish,
[1:15:43] isn't it?
[1:15:44] >> I will go on record saying that uh fame
[1:15:48] increases your opportunities
[1:15:50] exponentially and limits your freedoms
[1:15:52] exponentially.
[1:15:53] >> Um, no, it's not important to me. It's
[1:15:55] it's a it's a um it's a byproduct of the
[1:15:59] pursuit of other things.
[1:16:00] >> Are you an introvert or an extrovert?
[1:16:02] strongly introverted despite how much I
[1:16:04] talk. Got it. I need a lot of time. I
[1:16:06] get it. I need a lot. You should see me
[1:16:07] when I'm alone. I talk even more. No,
[1:16:09] I'm kidding.
[1:16:09] >> You're probably exhausted after a
[1:16:10] podcast.
[1:16:11] >> Yeah, I love my team and but I interact
[1:16:14] with very few people on purpose. No, I
[1:16:17] um very I need time um to think and I
[1:16:22] love people, but I'm very very
[1:16:24] introverted.
[1:16:24] >> I got it. Yeah, I got it. Okay. Go. So,
[1:16:26] I I believe you. And so, you'd go to the
[1:16:27] normal the most normal. You'd be as
[1:16:29] famous as your mailman. Oh, that would
[1:16:32] be awesome. Okay. I have the best like
[1:16:34] the people that clean up my
[1:16:35] neighborhood. I live in a pretty grungy
[1:16:36] neighborhood. My place I do my best to
[1:16:39] keep really nice. These people are like
[1:16:40] my heroes. I'm always bringing the
[1:16:42] matina and like they they're out there
[1:16:44] like they're literally scraping up
[1:16:47] from [laughter]
[1:16:48] animals people. Like I love these people
[1:16:50] and they're so like the ones I know so
[1:16:53] happy. They're so happy. And I'm like,
[1:16:54] man, one, maybe someday I just like
[1:16:56] throw on one of those orange vests and
[1:16:57] just like disappear into like,
[1:17:00] >> you know, I won't name a town, but Yeah.
[1:17:02] >> You don't don't name the town or pretty
[1:17:03] soon they'll find you.
[1:17:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
[1:17:06] >> So, okay. Good, good, good. Now, we got
[1:17:08] rid of the easy one in a way.
[1:17:10] >> Money, power, pleasure.
[1:17:12] >> What's next? That means it's going to be
[1:17:14] a little harder because all these things
[1:17:16] are, you know, have their rewards.
[1:17:17] >> Yeah.
[1:17:18] >> So, which one do you get rid of next?
[1:17:19] >> Pleasure.
[1:17:20] >> Pleasure. And then because you're pretty
[1:17:21] austere. I mean, you're you're I mean,
[1:17:23] look, your book's called Protocols.
[1:17:25] >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I inherited my my
[1:17:28] mom's um
[1:17:31] people I was this kind of like um
[1:17:34] observer comes on where like people are
[1:17:36] going to think I'm like scripting this.
[1:17:37] My mom has a save the world piece of her
[1:17:40] that's very real and very alive in me.
[1:17:42] But the thing we also share like a
[1:17:44] desire to to save change, positive
[1:17:46] change. But the thing that comes alive
[1:17:48] in me that I definitely got from her,
[1:17:50] it's like if an emotion like gets to me,
[1:17:53] if it comes up, it's big. Like I like
[1:17:57] the people I love, I love so big that
[1:17:59] sometimes I think the top of my head's
[1:18:00] going to explode
[1:18:01] >> like or that I think like my heart's
[1:18:03] going to explode.
[1:18:04] >> And and it's and it's not comfortable.
[1:18:06] >> It's a um it's I've gotten better at
[1:18:09] tolerating that.
[1:18:11] >> Yeah. It makes me emotional cuz I I do
[1:18:13] think that like grief is proportional to
[1:18:14] love and but so I don't walk out of my
[1:18:16] podcast studio where I work with my best
[1:18:19] friends. Not all of them but all of them
[1:18:21] are my best friends. It's not but I have
[1:18:22] best friends elsewhere too. But I walk
[1:18:24] out and I don't think oh god like
[1:18:26] >> one of them might die on the road
[1:18:27] tonight. I just think I'm the luckiest
[1:18:30] >> human being on the planet to work with
[1:18:31] these people doing. So but it fills me
[1:18:33] so much sometimes. It's a lot. It's a
[1:18:36] lot to to tolerate. So pleasure is not
[1:18:39] something that I like I don't need more
[1:18:41] intense experiences. I'm having intense
[1:18:43] experiences from the moment I wake up
[1:18:45] until the moment I go to sleep.
[1:18:46] >> Yeah. Yeah. And you and you're and
[1:18:48] you're not a drinker. You're not a
[1:18:49] >> I'm not a drinker. I've never been a
[1:18:50] drug guy.
[1:18:51] >> So let me say something nice about your
[1:18:53] mom. Okay. So the fact that you kicked
[1:18:56] out uh honor right from the very
[1:18:59] beginning. You know what honor addicts
[1:19:00] all have in common? They think that love
[1:19:02] is earned.
[1:19:03] >> That's what they all have in common.
[1:19:04] They usually have this common childhood
[1:19:06] where they're really really good at
[1:19:07] something. I know you were a good
[1:19:08] student and you were a good skateboarder
[1:19:09] and you were good at I was wait to be
[1:19:11] fair before the the internet comes for
[1:19:13] me. I was not a very good skateboarder
[1:19:14] which drove me toward academics because
[1:19:16] I kept getting hurt. I loved the sport
[1:19:18] and I was a I was a good student but I
[1:19:20] was not I I always had to work hard.
[1:19:23] >> Yeah. It's very easy for for for a lot
[1:19:25] of young people, particularly the young
[1:19:27] people of of those who are of
[1:19:28] intellectuals and and excellent people
[1:19:30] to learn from their parents that they
[1:19:32] get attention and affection when they do
[1:19:34] something unusual.
[1:19:35] >> And the result is that their little
[1:19:36] brains register the idea that love is
[1:19:38] earned. And love isn't earned. Love is a
[1:19:40] free gift freely given. Love is a grace.
[1:19:42] Mh.
[1:19:42] >> And if you go through life, particularly
[1:19:43] in the most plastic part of your of
[1:19:47] your, you know, your psychological
[1:19:48] formation, thinking that love is earned,
[1:19:50] you'll surround yourself with people who
[1:19:52] will make you make you earn their love.
[1:19:54] You'll marry somebody who who will make
[1:19:57] you earn her love
[1:19:58] >> and friends who kiss up to you and say,
[1:20:00] "You got to earn my love." And the
[1:20:02] result is you'll go from person to
[1:20:03] person to person. You'll be a real honor
[1:20:05] addict. And and what what people have in
[1:20:07] common is that they have a big public
[1:20:09] life which happened to you that you'll
[1:20:11] crave the adoration of strangers. You'll
[1:20:14] actually crave it because that's the
[1:20:15] addiction is trying to earn the love
[1:20:17] even of strangers. And that's a big
[1:20:19] problem. So who actually made you whole?
[1:20:23] >> Probably your mom,
[1:20:24] >> probably your parents because they loved
[1:20:26] you unconditionally and they probably
[1:20:28] still do.
[1:20:29] >> That's good parenting. Yeah, that's
[1:20:31] >> they definitely did and they and they uh
[1:20:33] love love us unconditionally and they
[1:20:35] definitely do. And um yeah, I get a zero
[1:20:40] zero dopamine hit from people saying,
[1:20:42] "Oh, you're so and so. Can I get get a
[1:20:43] picture?" It doesn't bother me,
[1:20:45] >> right?
[1:20:45] >> What does fill me is when I get an email
[1:20:48] that somebody's like, "I'm going to go
[1:20:49] study neuroscience or I did this thing
[1:20:51] and it really, you know, I learned from
[1:20:53] so and so on your podcast and and it's
[1:20:55] and it's enriched my life." That feels
[1:20:56] really good because then I feel like,
[1:20:58] okay, great. Like I at least I know I'm
[1:21:00] not wasting my time.
[1:21:01] >> Yeah.
[1:21:01] >> You know,
[1:21:02] >> money and money and power
[1:21:04] >> and money just means resources. It's the
[1:21:06] ability to do stuff. It doesn't mean
[1:21:07] that it makes you more whole as a
[1:21:09] person, but it and and often this can
[1:21:11] the answer can come from a sense of
[1:21:13] identity. So often money idol will come
[1:21:16] from people who grew up rich because
[1:21:18] that's what it means to be a normal
[1:21:20] person. They or they grow up poor
[1:21:22] because they know how bad it is when you
[1:21:23] don't have it. So there's all kinds of
[1:21:24] circumstances that can provoke this and
[1:21:26] and and power is just like I I want to
[1:21:28] be in charge. I really really want to be
[1:21:30] in charge,
[1:21:31] >> which is not it's not it's not a vice.
[1:21:34] It's not a you know, but but it's really
[1:21:36] what drives you. So which one do you get
[1:21:37] rid of next?
[1:21:38] >> Money.
[1:21:38] >> Money, which is you you become the most
[1:21:40] you become economically just like your
[1:21:42] postman.
[1:21:43] >> Yeah, I I'd be fine.
[1:21:45] >> Who probably has?
[1:21:45] >> And I'm saying that now from a position
[1:21:47] of financial security. So it like
[1:21:49] >> No. No. And look there in the comments
[1:21:50] somebody's going to say, you know,
[1:21:52] >> easy to say. Hubberman and Brooks are
[1:21:54] yeah like completely full of it because
[1:21:55] they're you know right I got it but I
[1:21:57] believe you
[1:21:57] >> yeah but
[1:21:58] >> because you look you have been in both
[1:22:00] situations
[1:22:01] >> definitely so my chairman in San Diego
[1:22:04] before I moved my lab to Stanford he had
[1:22:05] the I went to him for a salary increase
[1:22:07] so in that department you could set your
[1:22:09] own salary as long as it wasn't higher
[1:22:11] than his
[1:22:12] >> and I had a lot of grants
[1:22:13] >> get him a raise
[1:22:14] >> what what what do you want to earn what
[1:22:16] do you want to earn and I told him and
[1:22:18] he said no there was no parody in that
[1:22:20] department in our in my department at
[1:22:21] Stanford there is you I you can't make
[1:22:23] more than someone more senior than you,
[1:22:25] right? So parody is important in certain
[1:22:27] departments, not in others.
[1:22:29] >> And uh I had a lot of grants. I'd like a
[1:22:31] raise of $20,000 this year, which on the
[1:22:34] significant fraction of what I was
[1:22:36] making.
[1:22:36] >> And um and he said, "Just remember, he
[1:22:39] like did the whole like pivot and look
[1:22:41] thing like that like you're not allowed
[1:22:43] to do anymore like like male chairman
[1:22:45] pivots towards you like like sitting
[1:22:47] with his knees open and he like did like
[1:22:49] you can never get away with this
[1:22:50] anymore." And he said, "Just remember,
[1:22:52] you're going to make a lot less money
[1:22:53] than you deserve." He was talking about
[1:22:55] then and he's like, "And then in the
[1:22:57] later part of your career," he was
[1:22:58] talking about himself, "you're going to
[1:22:59] make a lot more money than you deserve
[1:23:00] because you're going to have 10 year
[1:23:02] guy." And he was absolutely right.
[1:23:03] There's Bill Mobly. He's still alive and
[1:23:05] and um he's actually a meditator. He's
[1:23:07] friends with the Dollaly Lama. So, hi,
[1:23:08] Bill. He was absolutely right.
[1:23:10] >> I didn't know how that was going to
[1:23:12] happen or anything. I didn't know it was
[1:23:13] going to happen, but it turned out that
[1:23:14] that's true. So if I were to average my
[1:23:17] income
[1:23:18] >> back across two and a half decades of
[1:23:21] >> yeah I I was perfectly happy to live in
[1:23:23] a lab sp and save up a little bit of
[1:23:25] money to be able to go snowboarding once
[1:23:26] a month in graduate school. Like why pay
[1:23:29] rent? They have showers in the building.
[1:23:30] They're called monkey cage washers
[1:23:32] >> you know like you know like [laughter]
[1:23:35] you can't turn the heat on you know like
[1:23:36] they have a bathroom with a sink. Like
[1:23:38] people thought I was crazy right? But
[1:23:40] then then I didn't have to commute, you
[1:23:42] know. Now granted, I wasn't married with
[1:23:43] kids or anything, so I've lived both
[1:23:44] ways. I wouldn't say I've ever been
[1:23:46] poor. I won't I want to be honest.
[1:23:49] >> Money is not like
[1:23:51] >> it's great.
[1:23:52] >> It's not that fun.
[1:23:54] >> I mean,
[1:23:54] >> it's not that much you can you imagine
[1:23:56] like having a boat.
[1:23:57] >> No, that'd be a pain. Save me from the
[1:23:58] boat.
[1:23:59] >> No, no. I had to go on a long boat thing
[1:24:01] with my grandfather. It was It was like
[1:24:03] It was torturous. I want to go out on
[1:24:04] the boat for a day. I like seeing boats
[1:24:05] on the ocean. I like scuba diving. I'm
[1:24:07] not No. I it would be nice. We're
[1:24:10] talking extremes here, but no, money is
[1:24:11] not a a big motivator for it's nice to
[1:24:13] have, but I'll tell you
[1:24:15] >> I'm sort of answering what I think will
[1:24:16] be the next question. The best thing
[1:24:18] about having money is that I can use it
[1:24:20] to do things for other people. And that
[1:24:22] falls to me under this thing that you're
[1:24:24] calling power, but benevolent power,
[1:24:26] >> but also gives you freedom. And freedom
[1:24:28] is nice.
[1:24:29] >> Freedom is nice. And being able to make
[1:24:33] I'm not just making this up to make life
[1:24:35] easier.
[1:24:35] >> Yeah. by way of money or by way of
[1:24:39] connections. Like we were talking
[1:24:40] earlier about I know a lot of people who
[1:24:42] either have or know people with serious
[1:24:43] medical issues and I can connect them to
[1:24:45] the
[1:24:46] >> like to the one of three people that
[1:24:49] might actually be able to help them when
[1:24:51] no one else can.
[1:24:52] >> Like I've got story after story about I
[1:24:54] don't take credit. I just happen to know
[1:24:55] the best people in these little
[1:24:56] subdomains
[1:24:58] >> and it doesn't always work out that way
[1:25:00] but a lot of times they're like
[1:25:02] >> wow.
[1:25:03] >> And so I'm not the physician. I'm just
[1:25:05] the concierge. But the fact that I have
[1:25:08] this job allows me to do that,
[1:25:10] >> right?
[1:25:10] >> And the degree allows me to do that.
[1:25:12] Money doesn't allow me to do that,
[1:25:13] >> right?
[1:25:14] >> It's just my network is insane.
[1:25:16] >> Yeah. No, for sure.
[1:25:17] >> And the ability to use it for to help
[1:25:19] other people like and part of that is
[1:25:21] having people like you on this podcast,
[1:25:23] >> right? Like I Rob and I sometimes talk
[1:25:26] like I was like I can't believe it. Like
[1:25:28] we had like FA Lee on here. It's a
[1:25:30] colleague of mine at Stanford. You can't
[1:25:31] get an hour with her at Stanford, but
[1:25:33] she came here and talked for three hours
[1:25:34] about AI.
[1:25:35] >> Yeah.
[1:25:36] >> Like, and I can share that with the
[1:25:37] world
[1:25:38] >> that or share what you're teaching to
[1:25:40] the world that we're not just having
[1:25:41] this conversation on a walk
[1:25:43] >> and we can share it with the world. That
[1:25:45] to me is like
[1:25:47] >> power. Now, power
[1:25:49] >> which is the ability to to be in charge
[1:25:52] >> to to be the maestro
[1:25:53] >> to which is to say I I'm I'm going to be
[1:25:56] in I'm not going to be subject to the
[1:25:57] authority of another person. Oh,
[1:25:59] >> that is tricky. Which is which it is
[1:26:02] tricky to be sure. Now, you're not a
[1:26:03] vice filled person. I mean, you're a
[1:26:05] person who's actually you you don't have
[1:26:07] big problems in these in this regard.
[1:26:09] But what Aquinas suggested is that when
[1:26:11] you've eliminated the others that what
[1:26:14] you found is something that might make
[1:26:15] you stumble and that might distract you
[1:26:18] from the things that really matter, the
[1:26:19] the the ways that you can actually have
[1:26:22] love in your life. And what the funny
[1:26:23] thing about it is that if I said, "Okay,
[1:26:25] just tell me your idol from the very
[1:26:27] beginning." you might not have
[1:26:28] eliminated it to that particular point.
[1:26:30] >> Yeah. Because I think that uh it's it's
[1:26:32] really an interesting exercise.
[1:26:33] Obviously, I'm doing this with you now,
[1:26:35] but I I hope people are doing this in
[1:26:36] parallel because that's what it's all
[1:26:37] about. It's not about me and the
[1:26:38] example.
[1:26:39] >> Yeah. No, it's we we want people to know
[1:26:41] their idol.
[1:26:42] >> Definitely is that the words carry
[1:26:44] they're loaded words. Money, power, uh
[1:26:48] honor sounds actually cool until you
[1:26:50] really dissect it and then you realize
[1:26:51] it's just as uh you know nuanced as the
[1:26:53] others. That's that's the ancient that
[1:26:55] that's how Aquinus would have understood
[1:26:57] uh holores.
[1:26:58] >> Yeah.
[1:26:58] >> Right. Which is not virtuous inherently.
[1:27:02] [laughter]
[1:27:02] >> Right. Right. So the words are are can
[1:27:04] be a little misleading. I will say where
[1:27:06] I've tended to stumble on the backdrop
[1:27:08] of all this before people, you know,
[1:27:10] it's not about avoiding the comments. Um
[1:27:12] in fact, please comment.
[1:27:13] >> Yeah, totally. And we love them all.
[1:27:14] >> And and like and suggest like and
[1:27:15] [laughter] share. Just kidding.
[1:27:16] >> Don't forget to subscribe. subscribe
[1:27:18] button is, you know, but a big part of
[1:27:20] it also is,
[1:27:22] >> you know, that of course I'm susceptible
[1:27:24] to like the lure of pleasure, the lure
[1:27:27] of I mean like I'm human, right? We're
[1:27:29] all wired for it, right? The place where
[1:27:31] I've stumbled consistently is when
[1:27:35] overresourced in a particular place. I I
[1:27:38] don't always think about what the full
[1:27:41] arc of requirement is when trying to I
[1:27:45] believe in a benevolent way share
[1:27:48] resources,
[1:27:48] >> right?
[1:27:49] >> So, it's much easier to to like connect
[1:27:52] somebody to somebody and then if it's
[1:27:54] not going well to be like, well, that's
[1:27:56] their problem now. as opposed to really
[1:27:57] continuing to to like make make sure
[1:28:01] that happens, right? So, sometimes the
[1:28:03] the big learning for me has been
[1:28:06] >> whenever over resourced in any area,
[1:28:08] whether it's money, energy, generosity,
[1:28:11] whatever, that I need to be careful
[1:28:16] because the misperception is that
[1:28:17] because there's more than enough of it
[1:28:19] for me, I can just share whatever's
[1:28:21] left,
[1:28:21] >> right? But there's a hidden cost
[1:28:24] >> and it's the cost of making sure that
[1:28:26] all of that goes smoothly.
[1:28:29] >> That's and that's a cost that's hard to
[1:28:31] quantify. And the most painful thing in
[1:28:33] my life nowadays is actually pulling
[1:28:35] back the places where I I l my team
[1:28:37] knows this. It's like if I meet someone
[1:28:39] on the street and they are like they
[1:28:40] tell me something and then they want to
[1:28:41] tell me about like they have a question
[1:28:43] because they have an uncle who has a
[1:28:44] stroke and like I know a really great
[1:28:47] person for certain kinds of stroke. I'll
[1:28:49] take their I'll give them my phone
[1:28:51] number. Yeah,
[1:28:52] >> I've given up, you know, like I'll do
[1:28:53] this whole thing, but then later it's
[1:28:55] very hard to find the time to make sure
[1:28:57] that if they're not getting feedback
[1:28:58] that I can do the the call where I
[1:29:00] connect the two.
[1:29:01] >> And so there's this the hardest part for
[1:29:03] me is I I can't do it. And I got this
[1:29:04] from my mom.
[1:29:05] >> She sees a homeless person on the
[1:29:07] street.
[1:29:08] >> And when we were kids, we discovered she
[1:29:10] was putting homeless people up in hotels
[1:29:14] like and we'd have people living in our
[1:29:16] garage and like she can't help herself.
[1:29:18] >> Now she's better about it. Um but it it
[1:29:21] comes from a good place.
[1:29:22] >> She wants to fix stuff. She wants to fix
[1:29:25] stuff. She wants
[1:29:25] >> people suffering is very very and by the
[1:29:29] way our vices are our virtues.
[1:29:32] >> When I'm weak then I'm strong said St.
[1:29:34] Paul the Apostle. But also when I'm
[1:29:36] strong then I'm weak. Our strengths and
[1:29:38] weaknesses are opposite sides of the
[1:29:39] same coin. The weakness that you have,
[1:29:41] the idol that you have is also the
[1:29:43] opposite side of the greatest virtue
[1:29:44] that you possess. So that's one of the
[1:29:46] reasons that we shouldn't beat ourselves
[1:29:47] up about this, but we need to know what
[1:29:49] it actually is because that's what will
[1:29:51] actually lead you astray a lot of the
[1:29:53] time.
[1:29:53] >> Now, it's it's completely different for
[1:29:55] me. I would kick out power first,
[1:29:57] control first. The second thing I'd get
[1:29:59] rid of is pleasure. I'm a protocols guy,
[1:30:02] too. I'm very austere, right? I'm every
[1:30:05] day in the gym and, you know, I don't I
[1:30:07] eat a very strict diet and Okay. The
[1:30:10] third thing I would get rid of is money,
[1:30:13] resources. It's not I mean and and again
[1:30:16] like let's watch the comments light up.
[1:30:17] I got it.
[1:30:18] >> But what does that leave? That leaves
[1:30:20] honor.
[1:30:21] >> And the truth is I want people to love
[1:30:24] me. I want people to love me. I want
[1:30:28] this. It's so Look, dude. I'm 62 years
[1:30:31] old and I still want that.
[1:30:33] >> It feels good. What do you It's not even
[1:30:35] feeling good. It's like
[1:30:38] >> I'm not a human being. I'm a human
[1:30:40] doing. Hm. I'm trying to earn
[1:30:42] everybody's love. It's so dumb. And I
[1:30:45] recognize it now. That's power right
[1:30:47] there. Is power because I know when I'm
[1:30:49] doing it and and and I'm held
[1:30:51] accountable for it because my wife does
[1:30:53] not have this. Absolutely have this. And
[1:30:55] she'll say, "You're doing that stupid
[1:30:56] thing again." You know, why would you
[1:30:58] marginalize the people that you actually
[1:31:00] love for the adoration of strangers for
[1:31:01] Pete's sake? Why would you go do that
[1:31:03] thing that that you know people really
[1:31:05] want you to do? You want it because you
[1:31:07] want people to appreciate you is what it
[1:31:09] comes down to. you I say you're right is
[1:31:10] the whole point and the whole point is
[1:31:12] also that this is what I do for a living
[1:31:14] this is what I study and I'm weak and
[1:31:16] and I'm frail in this particular way and
[1:31:18] when I resist that idol when I fight
[1:31:20] against that idol then I choose the
[1:31:22] better path and I choose the space of
[1:31:24] moral aspiration and that space of moral
[1:31:27] aspiration is to love and be loved
[1:31:29] that's what the space of moral
[1:31:31] aspiration that's where it actually
[1:31:32] takes me to love and be loved not by the
[1:31:34] strangers not the prestige of the crowd
[1:31:37] not the the the the the the honor that
[1:31:40] comes from rising in the hierarchy.
[1:31:42] We're a tropical kinbased species
[1:31:47] hierarchically arranged. This the animal
[1:31:49] impulse comes from rising in our band of
[1:31:51] 30 to 50 hundred gatherers, you know,
[1:31:53] 250,000 years ago. I mean, this is all
[1:31:55] biologically wired. But when I
[1:31:57] understand that, then I can actually do
[1:31:59] what the what the you know that Dante in
[1:32:02] in the inferno um he he talks it's
[1:32:05] arranged around the seven deadly sins
[1:32:07] but he also talks about the seven um the
[1:32:10] heavenly virtues you know and so so
[1:32:13] pride humility right envy admiration is
[1:32:18] what it comes you know this that the
[1:32:19] heavenly virtue of this is is the of of
[1:32:24] the four are what you truly want what
[1:32:27] you truly deeply want in your soul. To
[1:32:30] love and be loved means that you're
[1:32:31] spending your time on your faith, the
[1:32:34] love of the divine, your family, the
[1:32:37] people that are biologically or by
[1:32:40] adoption related to you, your friends,
[1:32:43] the people that you actually choose and
[1:32:45] serving the whole world through the way
[1:32:46] that you earn your daily bread, which is
[1:32:48] to earn your success through your work,
[1:32:49] faith, family, friends, and work. And
[1:32:51] then only when you know that that idol,
[1:32:54] you can pivot to the thing that that
[1:32:56] your soul actually wants, the thing that
[1:32:57] you actually hunger for. And that's
[1:32:59] where real satisfaction comes in. That's
[1:33:01] where you gain the satisfaction that
[1:33:02] you've always wanted.
[1:33:04] >> Can I ask you a question about the
[1:33:05] adoration piece and applause and that
[1:33:07] kind of thing.
[1:33:08] >> So embarrassed.
[1:33:09] >> No. Well, I'm embar you know I mean it's
[1:33:12] like that it is it it's a vulnerable
[1:33:14] place to like reveal cuz the word is is
[1:33:17] is are tough like power like you know
[1:33:19] like you know like Hubberman admits that
[1:33:20] he is driven by no it's like power I
[1:33:23] want to help people
[1:33:24] >> no you want you have you want to have
[1:33:25] control over what you can control it
[1:33:27] yeah
[1:33:27] >> yeah and um but so when let's say you
[1:33:31] you give a lecture to to a a group that
[1:33:34] um you respect them as an audience
[1:33:36] whoever happens to be there like you
[1:33:38] respect your audience which so
[1:33:39] important, you know, like you um and
[1:33:41] >> they love their
[1:33:42] >> and they Yeah. And and and you you get
[1:33:46] the feedback that you really like you
[1:33:48] knocked it out of the park. Yeah. You
[1:33:49] knocked it out of the park.
[1:33:51] >> When you go back to your room at night,
[1:33:52] are you the sort of person that thinks
[1:33:54] about um that and how great it feels or
[1:33:58] are you thinking about this one thing
[1:34:00] that you said that you wish you had done
[1:34:01] differently? Are you the like the one
[1:34:03] the one thing that I wish I hadn't said
[1:34:04] kind of person or are you the or are you
[1:34:07] like basking in it? No, I'm not basking
[1:34:09] in it. I mean, I'm actually
[1:34:10] self-critical. I'm thinking about what
[1:34:11] it could be differently because it wears
[1:34:13] off and it's eancent. It's like a summer
[1:34:15] rain.
[1:34:16] >> You know, the the adoration of strangers
[1:34:18] feels good in the moment. I mean, in
[1:34:19] neurochemically, it it wears off very
[1:34:22] quickly, of course, because what you're
[1:34:23] getting is, you know, when when you look
[1:34:25] at people who are deeply addicted to
[1:34:26] success, it looks very much in in what
[1:34:29] in under brain scans to people who are
[1:34:31] actually getting highly glycemic
[1:34:34] carbohydrate treats or even a hit of
[1:34:36] cocaine. you know, you win in some
[1:34:38] little game and and you know, and
[1:34:41] obviously we were talking about dopamine
[1:34:42] here is you actually see it's the same
[1:34:44] thing, but that doesn't last. That's not
[1:34:46] supposed to last. That's supposed to
[1:34:47] wear away. And the first thing that
[1:34:49] somebody wants who's an addict is
[1:34:51] another hit, whether it's a line of
[1:34:52] cocaine or another round of applause.
[1:34:55] >> So, by the time I'm back in the hotel,
[1:34:56] I'm think
[1:34:58] that different.
[1:35:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Actually, what it
[1:35:01] comes down to. But, by the way, we got
[1:35:03] to know what the solution is to this.
[1:35:05] And the solution to this is not to say,
[1:35:07] "Okay, I'm a horrible human being." But
[1:35:09] [snorts] it's actually to pivot to
[1:35:12] choosing the path of the man that I want
[1:35:14] to be.
[1:35:16] >> You know, I I I I don't give into the
[1:35:18] animal impulse to stay under the covers
[1:35:19] past 4:30. The man that I want to be is
[1:35:22] down in the gym by 4:45.
[1:35:24] >> 4:45 a.m. [clears throat]
[1:35:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:35:26] >> That's right.
[1:35:27] >> Yeah. I mean, the the man that I want to
[1:35:30] be um when I'm either thinking about
[1:35:33] something I did wrong and I'm beating
[1:35:35] myself up or, you know, wishing there
[1:35:37] was another round of applause is
[1:35:38] somebody who is deep in prayer.
[1:35:40] >> That's the man that I want to be
[1:35:42] >> because I do know that that my
[1:35:45] metaphysical fitness depends on this and
[1:35:47] that's a choice that I can actually
[1:35:49] make.
[1:35:50] I have a question about um who we I
[1:35:54] don't want to say idolize but among
[1:35:56] humans can you name people
[1:36:00] alive or dead that um sort of embody or
[1:36:05] collectively sort of embody who you
[1:36:06] aspire to be like or do you not put
[1:36:08] humans in that category because one
[1:36:10] thing that I realized in this discussion
[1:36:12] around power and I'm not trying to uh
[1:36:14] soften anything around that is I've
[1:36:17] always had this list of people whose
[1:36:19] like careers and art and music and stuff
[1:36:21] I really admire. And in looking over
[1:36:23] that list, I try and like sometimes see
[1:36:26] like the through lines,
[1:36:27] >> right?
[1:36:27] >> And I can tell you that almost all of
[1:36:29] them brought together unique things
[1:36:32] based on their past, their
[1:36:33] circumstances, etc. to to like change
[1:36:36] the game.
[1:36:37] >> Like to me, that's kind of the ultimate.
[1:36:39] It's like
[1:36:39] >> in our business,
[1:36:40] >> Yeah.
[1:36:41] >> people think differently. The paradigm
[1:36:42] change.
[1:36:43] >> Yeah. It's like to change the game like
[1:36:45] um and it for me this is a very
[1:36:48] important like time space dilation where
[1:36:50] I can look back on the history of
[1:36:51] science and the couple of
[1:36:52] neurobiologists who were there at the
[1:36:54] beginning like
[1:36:55] >> Ramoni Kahal you'd say he changed the
[1:36:56] game because he kind of like
[1:36:58] >> made the game he created the game
[1:37:00] basically slicing up brains and
[1:37:02] understanding function but like but a
[1:37:04] few people came along even in my career
[1:37:07] in the time of my active lab career and
[1:37:11] I was like they really changed the game
[1:37:13] and then I asked so why did how and why
[1:37:16] did they change the game and you realize
[1:37:18] that every technique is fleeting because
[1:37:20] it gets replaced almost always right and
[1:37:23] so you start to realize that oh like it
[1:37:25] was always this unique kind of like
[1:37:27] artist scientist poet intersection and I
[1:37:31] realized like oh that that's like that's
[1:37:33] the thing was people that are like
[1:37:34] outside the box because they found a
[1:37:36] unique confluence of things striving for
[1:37:38] that is way more important to me than
[1:37:40] quote unquote power Yeah.
[1:37:42] >> It's like to be able to say like I did
[1:37:44] it not my way, not their way, but I did
[1:37:46] it my way. Period.
[1:37:48] >> Like a unique expression that could only
[1:37:50] have been me
[1:37:52] >> coming out of me.
[1:37:54] >> And I don't And so I'm not in
[1:37:57] competition with with some with some
[1:37:59] structure with other people. That to me
[1:38:01] is above the four idols that you
[1:38:03] describe.
[1:38:04] >> No, I get it. I completely get because
[1:38:05] it's like
[1:38:07] >> like that's like winning.
[1:38:09] >> That's what you admire and that's what I
[1:38:10] really kind of like an ideal type.
[1:38:13] That's what it actually means to be
[1:38:16] >> successful. That's what it means to be a
[1:38:18] success and that's what excellence means
[1:38:20] to you. That's that's the
[1:38:21] personification of excellence is
[1:38:22] actually that kind of intellectual
[1:38:24] entrepreneurship.
[1:38:25] >> Yeah. It's almost like it it moves from
[1:38:26] the because you said like to lead. I
[1:38:28] actually am not concerned with leading.
[1:38:30] I also didn't want to be a chairman,
[1:38:31] right? Like I don't want to run
[1:38:33] businesses, my podcast. I let someone
[1:38:34] else do that. He's way better at it than
[1:38:36] I could ever be. It's what I'm
[1:38:38] interested in is being outside of that
[1:38:41] but still ethically completely free.
[1:38:45] >> Yeah.
[1:38:46] >> Like I can't lead because I can't show
[1:38:48] anyone how to
[1:38:49] >> be me cuz they're them.
[1:38:51] >> I can show them how to I can get some
[1:38:53] ideas about how they can be them, but
[1:38:54] that's like an internal process for
[1:38:56] them. So that to me is like the ultimate
[1:38:58] when I think about Ramoni Kahal is a
[1:39:00] good example who by the way the greatest
[1:39:02] neurobiologist of all time ever by by
[1:39:06] huge huge margin
[1:39:08] >> also is like really into weightlifting
[1:39:10] he was an artist like he was an
[1:39:11] incredible like he drew images of the
[1:39:13] brain and inferred from that function
[1:39:14] from dead tissue amazing amazing human
[1:39:17] being like he's an end of one
[1:39:20] >> but it was the confluence of his
[1:39:21] interest in physical exercise and neuro
[1:39:23] anatomy and art that made him. Ramon
[1:39:27] Kahal, no one else can do that,
[1:39:29] >> right? Like, so I don't want to be like
[1:39:31] him.
[1:39:31] >> No, I got it.
[1:39:32] >> Because he did it the best. Like, why
[1:39:34] would you want to be like him ringing?
[1:39:36] >> You want to be excellent like him, but
[1:39:37] as Andrew Huberman.
[1:39:39] >> Exactly. To me, the unique expression
[1:39:40] and like, you know, we I think we'll
[1:39:42] eventually get to notions of like not
[1:39:44] notions. We'll talk a little bit about
[1:39:45] God and faith because that's actually
[1:39:46] where you and I connected in person for
[1:39:48] the first time was talking at Stanford
[1:39:50] about science. Very openly. But that to
[1:39:54] me feels I could be misinterpreting the
[1:39:56] message but I feel like that's what God
[1:39:59] wants for all of us whether it's and in
[1:40:01] the different domains of of life.
[1:40:03] >> Yeah.
[1:40:04] >> And of course adhering to ethics like
[1:40:05] there are rules there are structures we
[1:40:07] have to obey within that but our unique
[1:40:09] expression.
[1:40:11] >> I feel like that's why we're here.
[1:40:14] That's I I tell myself this.
[1:40:15] >> No like I I completely agree with you
[1:40:17] and you know so people often ask so who
[1:40:19] who's your hero? I I don't know. I don't
[1:40:21] know. my dad, you know. Um,
[1:40:24] >> you're like Jesus. You say Jesus.
[1:40:25] >> Jesus. Yeah, I know. It's like like
[1:40:28] I mean it's like who's hero, but it's
[1:40:30] like no, I mean Jesus is the master, but
[1:40:33] the hero it's like the hero. No, it's
[1:40:35] not like some sort of hero's journey,
[1:40:37] some yungian, you know, archetype that
[1:40:40] we're talking about here. I I struggle
[1:40:42] with that as well. But I do see people
[1:40:44] that I I deeply admire precisely for
[1:40:47] this for this reason. So somebody I
[1:40:49] really admire the guy in my field the
[1:40:51] social science scientist par excalance
[1:40:54] is James Q Wilson [snorts] you know
[1:40:56] James Q Wilson James James Q Wilson who
[1:40:59] won the Congressional Medal of Honor you
[1:41:00] know which is pretty hard to do as a
[1:41:01] social scientist for you know for
[1:41:03] [snorts] no he died in 2012
[1:41:06] >> and and he was the greatest political
[1:41:08] scientist of the 20th century and and
[1:41:10] somebody I knew he sat sat in on my
[1:41:12] dissertation defense which went very
[1:41:14] poorly. I mean, it was rough, man. I had
[1:41:17] two Nobel Prize winners in economics and
[1:41:19] James Q. Wilson. I was super nervous and
[1:41:21] it was it was it was it was not a great
[1:41:24] dissertation. It got signatures.
[1:41:26] [laughter]
[1:41:26] That's the scoreboard effect on that.
[1:41:28] That's all I can say. It passed.
[1:41:29] >> But he said to me after that, you know,
[1:41:31] he had written
[1:41:33] monumental books. He had done works. He
[1:41:35] had written a great book called the
[1:41:36] moral sense. That was the first time
[1:41:38] that a social scientist had actually
[1:41:40] used the tools of of empirical social
[1:41:43] science survey based data to understand
[1:41:45] the the moral sensibilities, the complex
[1:41:47] moral sensibilities that they actually
[1:41:49] possessed and just quantifying it. I
[1:41:51] read that I said I just want to do that.
[1:41:52] I want to do that. I don't want to be
[1:41:54] James Q Wilson though. I want to be
[1:41:55] Arthur Brooks, you know, and doing it my
[1:41:57] own in my own way. And he said, you
[1:41:59] know, at my dissertation defense, he
[1:42:00] said, you know, nice try. You're going
[1:42:03] to be fine. When you need something,
[1:42:04] give me a call. And so some years later,
[1:42:07] I was an assistant professor at Syracuse
[1:42:10] at the time. And I was I wrote my first
[1:42:12] commercial book, my first trade book,
[1:42:14] and it was about charitable giving. And
[1:42:16] it was it was it actually changed my
[1:42:18] life because the president read it for
[1:42:21] some odd reason and talked about it. And
[1:42:22] then suddenly I was my career was
[1:42:24] changed forever as a result of that, for
[1:42:26] for better and for worse. But when I was
[1:42:28] working on it, I wrote to James Q.
[1:42:30] Wilson and I said, "Would you read this
[1:42:31] manuscript?" And he said, "Sure." I sent
[1:42:34] it to him. and he said, "You know, I was
[1:42:35] going to write a book on this, but
[1:42:36] you've written I don't have to." Um,
[1:42:38] I'll write the forward.
[1:42:39] >> Awesome. Unbelievable. Yeah.
[1:42:41] >> Unbelievable. Later, he recruited me to
[1:42:44] be the president of the American
[1:42:45] Enterprise Institute. Uh, because he was
[1:42:46] on the board of that. And he was on the
[1:42:49] board until he passed away and then I
[1:42:51] spoke at his funeral. I had the honor of
[1:42:53] speaking at his funeral at the at the
[1:42:54] memorial chapel at Harvard where his
[1:42:56] funeral was held. And it was just this
[1:42:59] guy. He was a a one of a kind. And I
[1:43:04] want to be a social scientist too, but
[1:43:06] not just like him. Not even studying the
[1:43:07] same things that he does, but to have
[1:43:09] this this intense curiosity
[1:43:12] and and using the tools of science
[1:43:15] completely in the public interest.
[1:43:17] That's what I want to do. And so that's
[1:43:18] what inspires me. So my hero I I guess,
[1:43:21] but it's the admiration that I have
[1:43:23] because he was fully alive. He was fully
[1:43:26] alive in the way that I think that it
[1:43:28] was his destiny to be in all of us. And
[1:43:29] everybody watching us, like everybody
[1:43:31] watching us and listening to us is got
[1:43:33] their thing. That's what our destiny is
[1:43:35] to actually find that thing and be truly
[1:43:37] excellent and use it to serve. Be as
[1:43:39] excellent as you can possibly be in in
[1:43:41] being a, you know, drywall hanger and,
[1:43:43] you know, and and being a cook at a
[1:43:44] restaurant, in being a college
[1:43:46] professor, god forbid, being a
[1:43:47] politician, in the public interest, in
[1:43:50] the private interest in in in showing
[1:43:52] people that this is an expression of
[1:43:54] your love. You see, in this way, it's
[1:43:56] godly in this way. You know, in the book
[1:43:59] of Genesis, it's, you know, God created
[1:44:01] heaven and earth. That was his gig. That
[1:44:02] was his job. And it was an expression of
[1:44:05] his love. This is what you and I can do.
[1:44:08] This is what you do. This is, by the
[1:44:09] way,
[1:44:11] you're popular because you're good at
[1:44:14] your job, for sure. But because you want
[1:44:17] the best for everybody, because this
[1:44:19] podcast is an expression of Andrew
[1:44:21] Huberman's love. That's why it's
[1:44:23] successful. And everybody can be su
[1:44:26] successful in their way can be, you
[1:44:29] know, have their own humor and podcast,
[1:44:31] not in podcasting necessarily, by
[1:44:33] actually having it be an expression of
[1:44:34] your love, love for humanity through the
[1:44:36] way that you're earning your daily
[1:44:37] bread. That's the quintessential
[1:44:39] expression of excellence in my view.
[1:44:41] That accord with yours?
[1:44:42] >> Very much so. And I, you know, it occurs
[1:44:44] to me like, you know, um, and maybe I'm
[1:44:48] a little bit bothered by this word
[1:44:49] powering
[1:44:52] and I'm striving for it to not
[1:44:53] misconrue, but but if No, no, no, no. I
[1:44:55] I just I mean, but but I'm I'm embracing
[1:44:57] it today. But what to me the ultimate
[1:45:01] win I realized um a few moments ago is
[1:45:05] like what I'm really trying to do in
[1:45:07] this podcast thing is I love learning
[1:45:11] >> and when I find something that I think
[1:45:12] can be of use to people.
[1:45:14] >> Yeah.
[1:45:14] >> Uh I teach it because what's most
[1:45:16] satisfying to me is if people change
[1:45:19] their behavior and it leads them to a
[1:45:21] better place mentally, physically or
[1:45:23] both. Right. And then they also
[1:45:26] understand why it did that,
[1:45:28] >> right?
[1:45:28] >> And then they pass it along.
[1:45:30] >> Like and and there's no need for
[1:45:33] attribution in that,
[1:45:34] >> right? There's no need for attribution.
[1:45:36] And I hope that like I have a few
[1:45:37] friends who are actors, a few friends
[1:45:39] who are musicians, and I have to imagine
[1:45:40] that they love acting and playing music,
[1:45:42] and those sorts of people provide
[1:45:44] incredible enrichment to my life. I love
[1:45:46] music. I love I love film and as a
[1:45:48] consumer. But I've heard them say things
[1:45:50] like, "Yeah, you know, like you can
[1:45:52] transport somebody, you can inspire
[1:45:54] them." And I think ultimately that's
[1:45:55] what it's about is like I think that we
[1:45:57] do at our best. I think we all want to
[1:46:00] find the thing that we love to do, put
[1:46:03] it out there, and I think we have this
[1:46:05] sense that it that it could possibly
[1:46:07] ripple through time without attribution.
[1:46:10] >> To me, that's like the ultimate power,
[1:46:13] right?
[1:46:14] >> Totally. I want to create happiness
[1:46:15] teachers. I I I want people to go be
[1:46:18] teachers because that's leverage. I want
[1:46:20] a better world. I want to lift people up
[1:46:22] with these ideas. I can't do it by
[1:46:24] myself. Well, the only reason we have
[1:46:25] like the microphones and the cameras are
[1:46:27] here, right, is to ripple it out
[1:46:29] further. These are lit, you know, they
[1:46:30] literally amplify things, right? So, but
[1:46:32] yeah, the the best way to amplifies
[1:46:35] amplify through space is the internet.
[1:46:37] The best way to amplify through time
[1:46:39] might be the internet, but the way to
[1:46:42] really reinforce that whole thing is to
[1:46:44] teach people things I believe in a way
[1:46:46] that they understand the process
[1:46:48] underneath so that a little bit of it
[1:46:51] >> so that they can and they pass both
[1:46:53] things along. This is why I think like
[1:46:55] cuz nowadays like I could go on any
[1:46:58] website and just go what are the 10 top
[1:47:00] things that people on their deathbed say
[1:47:02] are keys to happiness and I can get a
[1:47:04] list. Yeah. But people choose to listen
[1:47:06] to the mechanics of it because there's
[1:47:09] something about the human brain. I'm
[1:47:11] certain that when we understand a bit
[1:47:13] about the mechanics that gives rise to
[1:47:14] that thing,
[1:47:15] >> that's our buy in. That's the per that's
[1:47:18] the cost of admission and then it
[1:47:19] becomes worth something. That's the
[1:47:20] effort that comes before the
[1:47:22] >> Yeah. Well, you know what they say in
[1:47:23] medical schools? They say at Stanford
[1:47:24] Medical School to become a surgeon, you
[1:47:26] need to watch one, do one, teach one.
[1:47:28] >> Watch one, do one, teach one. And and
[1:47:29] you know the truth is that the that the
[1:47:31] the process of learning and you know
[1:47:32] there's a ton of research on how people
[1:47:34] learn and the way that people learn best
[1:47:37] is that they have to learn how something
[1:47:38] works then they have to actually
[1:47:40] practice it then they actually have to
[1:47:42] teach it. So my dad was a math professor
[1:47:44] he was a brilliant biostatistician. I
[1:47:46] one time watched him as a math professor
[1:47:48] giving an advanced calculus lecture and
[1:47:50] 90 minutes no notes. It was like
[1:47:52] watching Yasha hyitz and I was old
[1:47:55] enough that I had admiration for him. I
[1:47:57] was in my 20s before he died. He died
[1:47:58] young, but I was still in my 20s and he
[1:48:00] was still going. And and I said, "Dad,"
[1:48:02] I was like, "That was a virtuosa
[1:48:03] performance. How'd you do
[1:48:05] [clears throat] it?" He said, "I've done
[1:48:06] it hundreds of times." And and he said,
[1:48:08] "The process is simple. You learn
[1:48:10] actually what's happening. You look at
[1:48:12] the proof. You admire the science and
[1:48:15] then you actually do a ton of problems
[1:48:17] and then finally you explain it over and
[1:48:19] over and over and over again." And the
[1:48:20] same thing is true for golf. And the
[1:48:21] same thing is true for speaking Spanish.
[1:48:23] And the same thing is true for for
[1:48:25] understanding how to live a better life.
[1:48:26] You need to know the science. The reason
[1:48:28] that I'm so fascinated with the science
[1:48:29] and I want to talk about it in my
[1:48:31] podcast every week is like it's so cool
[1:48:34] when you understand the science then
[1:48:36] you're more likely to change your habits
[1:48:37] and then you're more likely to spread it
[1:48:39] and share it with other people in which
[1:48:41] case you will be a virtuoso in it and
[1:48:43] you'll actually keep the cycle unbroken.
[1:48:46] >> That's magic.
[1:48:47] >> That's like it's [clears throat] a it's
[1:48:48] a complete miracle that that's actually
[1:48:50] how we do it. and and we have this
[1:48:52] moment, this miraculous moment where you
[1:48:56] and I can actually talk about serious
[1:48:57] science. We're not I mean this is not a
[1:48:59] doctoral seminar at Stanford or Harvard
[1:49:01] to be sure, but we're we're talking
[1:49:04] about the real thing and people will
[1:49:05] watch this like yeah that's like you
[1:49:06] know they're they're learning some
[1:49:07] things and they're going to go to
[1:49:08] someone going to go to PubMed and we're
[1:49:09] going to have show notes and and the
[1:49:11] whole thing and and then we talk about
[1:49:13] here's how you use it. Okay. So, don't
[1:49:15] when you go to the beach, make sure that
[1:49:16] you're going to a beach with a friend.
[1:49:18] And here's your pro your book is called
[1:49:19] Protocols for a reason with several
[1:49:21] hundred pages of footnotes. Right now,
[1:49:24] go share it. You know how many times
[1:49:25] people have told me, "Hey, you know what
[1:49:26] about coffee? You should wait for 90
[1:49:28] minutes because you know the the
[1:49:30] caffeine molecule the caffeine molecule
[1:49:33] blocks the A2A adenosine uh receptors
[1:49:36] and and you won't get the crash at 2 in
[1:49:37] the afternoon." I'm like, "Yeah, I know
[1:49:39] where you got that. I know where you got
[1:49:41] that. You got that from Andrew." and and
[1:49:44] without attribution because they don't
[1:49:45] know they got it from you. But the whole
[1:49:46] point is the world's better. The world
[1:49:49] is better. That's how we can bless the
[1:49:51] world with what we actually do. And
[1:49:53] that's so great. I'd like to take a
[1:49:56] quick break and acknowledge one of our
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[1:50:11] function. Even a slight degree of
[1:50:13] dehydration can diminish your cognitive
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[1:50:36] right into work or right into exercise.
[1:50:38] So, to make sure that I'm hydrated and I
[1:50:40] have sufficient electrolytes, when I
[1:50:42] first wake up in the morning, I drink 16
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[1:51:16] >> So, we got through enjoyment,
[1:51:17] satisfaction, and meaning.
[1:51:19] >> We got through enjoyment, satisfaction,
[1:51:21] not meaning.
[1:51:21] >> Well, we have not gotten all the way
[1:51:22] through, but we um So, tell us more
[1:51:25] about meaning. So, we got the idols.
[1:51:27] Yeah.
[1:51:27] >> So, those are the things to be aware of
[1:51:28] and
[1:51:29] >> that will block your satisfaction that
[1:51:31] they promise satisfaction and they don't
[1:51:32] deliver.
[1:51:33] >> They won't deliver the satisfaction that
[1:51:35] you seek, but but your brain tells you
[1:51:37] that they will. That will put you on
[1:51:39] what we in in my community call the
[1:51:41] hedonic treadmill.
[1:51:42] >> Hideonic simply means feelings or or or
[1:51:45] in your vernacular, you know, is
[1:51:47] activity. The lyic system
[1:51:49] >> and and that the treadmill means that
[1:51:51] the the lyic system resets because
[1:51:53] emotions are not there to give you a
[1:51:54] nice day. They give you, you know, set
[1:51:56] of signals about threats and
[1:51:57] opportunities so you can react and they
[1:51:59] reset immediately.
[1:52:00] >> You always think they're going to last
[1:52:01] forever. So, you have an incentive to
[1:52:03] either avoid or approach things.
[1:52:05] >> This is the uh you don't see it much
[1:52:08] anymore, but there used to be a a bumper
[1:52:11] sticker out there that said that the the
[1:52:13] person who dies with the most toys wins.
[1:52:15] >> Yeah. Right.
[1:52:16] >> It's that one. Uh which reminds me about
[1:52:18] quantification. Can I share this with
[1:52:19] you? It's not it's not it's not my
[1:52:21] original idea, but Anolky, Dr. Dr. Anna
[1:52:23] Olympia,
[1:52:24] >> she's been on I've had her on my podcast
[1:52:25] and and yeah, she's fantastic.
[1:52:27] >> Yeah, she's amazing. She she told me
[1:52:28] that there's something you um
[1:52:30] interesting uh one particularly
[1:52:33] interesting lens on any behavior is
[1:52:36] whether the person tends to quantify
[1:52:39] that behavior very carefully and kind of
[1:52:41] covet the thing. She said addicts will
[1:52:44] like constantly check back and see how
[1:52:46] many like pills they have, how many bags
[1:52:48] they have, how many um uh people who are
[1:52:51] obsessed, perhaps even addicted to
[1:52:53] making money will constantly check every
[1:52:56] single day.
[1:52:57] >> And it's and it's cloaked as feeling as
[1:52:59] the need to feel safe, but it has
[1:53:01] nothing to do with that. It's the libic
[1:53:03] system is very very good
[1:53:05] >> at charting profits and losses
[1:53:08] >> in whatever context that like making
[1:53:10] lists, quantification. So, we have to be
[1:53:12] very This is not a a call to not track
[1:53:15] your sleep or something or your HRV.
[1:53:17] >> But, by the way,
[1:53:18] >> Mhm.
[1:53:19] >> it can be a problem. It can it can be a
[1:53:21] I check it fitness trackers.
[1:53:23] >> I check my sleep once a week against a
[1:53:24] subjective quick line
[1:53:26] >> or your HRV or
[1:53:28] >> Yeah.
[1:53:28] >> Yeah. So anyway, I I it's something that
[1:53:30] I we don't hear often enough even in the
[1:53:33] neurobiology uh crowd that the libic
[1:53:36] system loves to quantify and if we get
[1:53:39] to the extreme of quantification in a
[1:53:41] given area we um of life of behavior of
[1:53:45] obsession
[1:53:47] it very likely not always but very
[1:53:50] likely reflects that that healthy
[1:53:52] behavior has become either an obsession
[1:53:53] or or full-blown addiction which I find
[1:53:55] really interesting.
[1:53:56] >> So interesting. So what are we what are
[1:53:58] we actually what is the lyic system
[1:53:59] actually trying to do with that kind of
[1:54:00] control that that's expressed through
[1:54:02] quantification
[1:54:03] >> never experience the drop. It's like a
[1:54:05] way it's not getting more of but it's
[1:54:08] it's in the getting more of it's it's
[1:54:10] it's it's right you're you're working
[1:54:12] against losses by telling yourself you
[1:54:14] have this
[1:54:14] >> it's based on loss aversion.
[1:54:16] >> It's loss aversion. Thank you. Yes. It's
[1:54:17] based on loss aversion. And I said it's
[1:54:20] funny. She said I said what do you mean?
[1:54:21] She said, "Oh yeah, like people who are
[1:54:22] are like addicted to like uh certain
[1:54:24] kinds of barbituates or painkillers or
[1:54:26] whatever will like line them up and like
[1:54:28] look at them and count them." There's a
[1:54:30] very pathologic uh instance of this
[1:54:32] which is very tragic too uh because they
[1:54:34] often die sadly. But uh one of the
[1:54:37] hallmark traits of like true anorexia is
[1:54:39] that the these reward circuits become
[1:54:42] such that the aversion of food becomes
[1:54:43] rewarding.
[1:54:44] >> Uhhuh.
[1:54:45] >> Which is
[1:54:46] >> you know deadly in its ultimate form.
[1:54:48] >> And
[1:54:50] people with true anorexia can look at an
[1:54:53] article of food and they have a
[1:54:55] calculator that can tell you within a
[1:54:57] very small margin how many calories, how
[1:54:59] much fat, how much protein. They they
[1:55:02] know they can they're like visual
[1:55:04] computers when it comes to food, right?
[1:55:05] And food aversion avoiding that stuff
[1:55:08] becomes their it's like a the addiction
[1:55:11] the the pleasure pathways get all
[1:55:12] inverted and they off it's the most
[1:55:14] deadly of the psychiatric disorders.
[1:55:15] That's an extreme pathological case. But
[1:55:17] she said heroin addicts who you would
[1:55:20] think can't get their life together can
[1:55:22] tell you exactly how much heroin they
[1:55:24] have and how much they they think
[1:55:26] they're going to get how much things
[1:55:27] they're often very good at math
[1:55:29] >> you know they understand you know and so
[1:55:31] quantification is kind of a hallmark
[1:55:33] feature of the of these rewards these
[1:55:36] reinforcement circuitries I thought
[1:55:37] perhaps that's an interesting point that
[1:55:39] I don't think we discuss enough so when
[1:55:41] I think about whether something is a an
[1:55:43] addiction a compulsion unhealthy or
[1:55:46] healthy the pursuit like how tightly am
[1:55:49] I quantifying every little bit of it and
[1:55:51] thinking about what I've done like you
[1:55:53] know
[1:55:53] >> yeah how many articles are on my VA you
[1:55:55] know whatever you know because we
[1:55:56] quantify your success and the more that
[1:55:58] we look at the you know you're not
[1:55:59] trying to pat yourself on the back
[1:56:00] you're trying to make sure that you're
[1:56:01] not falling behind
[1:56:02] >> I remember followers on you know I do
[1:56:05] think the social media platforms have
[1:56:07] have
[1:56:08] >> intentionally brought this in
[1:56:10] >> it's not like the number of likes can be
[1:56:12] reinforcing some but the number of
[1:56:14] followers people are monitoring their
[1:56:16] increases and decreases and they they
[1:56:18] kind of covet them.
[1:56:19] >> Yes, absolutely. And and the rate of
[1:56:21] change of your followers, for example,
[1:56:22] >> and the media will say like so and so
[1:56:24] lost x number of followers or whatever.
[1:56:26] Like it's like a thing. So I think
[1:56:27] there's something there around
[1:56:28] quantification.
[1:56:29] >> Wait till your book comes out. Wait till
[1:56:30] you experience the New York Times
[1:56:31] bestseller list for the first time.
[1:56:33] >> Oh, it's incredible. It's incredible.
[1:56:35] You know Ryan Holidayiday, right? You
[1:56:36] ever had him on your show?
[1:56:37] >> I have not had him on the show, but I'm
[1:56:39] great. and and you know he he one time
[1:56:41] he said to me it's like I was sure that
[1:56:43] I was finally going to feel like
[1:56:45] completely alive if I if I someday he
[1:56:47] said I'm going to I'm going to visualize
[1:56:48] it I'm going to have a number one New
[1:56:50] York Times bestseller and he said and
[1:56:52] finally it happened and one week later I
[1:56:54] got knocked off the list by Trump's kid
[1:56:57] [laughter]
[1:57:00] >> Baron
[1:57:01] >> no I don't know one of his sons but you
[1:57:04] know it's like I don't know and and and
[1:57:06] his whole point is that it's so absurd
[1:57:08] because it's completely arbit arbitary,
[1:57:10] right?
[1:57:10] >> The metric is arbitrary,
[1:57:12] >> but what you're trying to do is you're
[1:57:13] trying to quantify your sense of self.
[1:57:16] >> Am I enough yet? Am I good enough yet?
[1:57:18] Am I enough yet? And so on the one hand,
[1:57:20] you're actually talking about the
[1:57:21] addiction. But one of the things that I
[1:57:22] see again and again and again and again
[1:57:24] is that people are trying to prove to
[1:57:25] themselves that they actually are enough
[1:57:28] and and they don't feel like they are.
[1:57:30] And the way that they earn it is
[1:57:31] actually by looking at the scoreboard.
[1:57:32] This is what a lot of wealthy people do.
[1:57:34] It's what a lot of academics do. It's
[1:57:36] like how many what's this? What's his h
[1:57:37] index? You know, like how high is the H
[1:57:40] index? And oh yeah, so and so is such a
[1:57:42] big shot. H index is like 36. Joke and
[1:57:46] nobody even knows what that means,
[1:57:48] >> right? 1% of the people watching us, but
[1:57:50] you and I know what that means.
[1:57:52] >> Yeah. Because it's about impact, right?
[1:57:55] Ultimately, people or they tell
[1:57:56] themselves it's that. But putting a a
[1:57:57] numerical score on something, I mean,
[1:57:59] the brain has circuits that are pretty
[1:58:02] much hardwired for counting.
[1:58:03] >> Yeah. I mean, my dog isn't as smart as
[1:58:05] my assistant's dog. He has a a hurting
[1:58:08] dog. They can count. They know how many
[1:58:10] people in he has he has a little major
[1:58:13] uh uh
[1:58:14] >> they look at you like it's like you look
[1:58:15] at like, "Stop judging."
[1:58:16] >> His dog is tracking how many in the
[1:58:19] group are here and how many are missing.
[1:58:22] That's what makes them really good at
[1:58:23] their job. And that's where they get
[1:58:24] rewarded by making sure they're all in
[1:58:25] the
[1:58:26] >> And here's the interesting part about
[1:58:27] this, Andrew. that function, that
[1:58:29] quantification function, that that the
[1:58:32] essentializing function of how much,
[1:58:34] that's what we're really good at using
[1:58:36] the left hemisphere of our brains.
[1:58:38] That's that whole theory of hemispheric
[1:58:39] lateralization that McGillchrist brought
[1:58:41] back. When I was a kid, there's right
[1:58:42] brain, left brain people, right people
[1:58:44] are artsy and left brain people are
[1:58:45] analytical. That's not right. But the
[1:58:48] how to and what side requires hardcore
[1:58:50] quantification, and that's a
[1:58:52] fundamentally a leftbrain function. The
[1:58:54] right side, that's complicated. Those
[1:58:56] are complicated problems, solvable but
[1:58:58] complicated problems if you've got the
[1:58:59] data. The right side of the brain deals
[1:59:02] fundamentally more with complex
[1:59:04] questions which don't have quantifiable
[1:59:06] answers. All they have is understanding.
[1:59:09] All they have is intuition. That's the
[1:59:11] why side of your brain, not the how to
[1:59:12] and what side. And that's where meaning
[1:59:15] resides, which is the last macronutrient
[1:59:17] of this. the right side of our brain,
[1:59:19] the the the the the love side, the
[1:59:21] meaning side, the God side, the the
[1:59:24] complex side, all the problems that are
[1:59:26] most important to you, but you'll never
[1:59:28] solve. I mean, my car is left
[1:59:30] hemisphere. My marriage is right
[1:59:32] hemisphere. I will never solve my
[1:59:34] marriage. Never. I mean, before we
[1:59:36] stepped in here, my wife texted me. Good
[1:59:38] luck. I love you. She does. I'm going to
[1:59:41] call her later. She might be pissed off
[1:59:42] at me. I don't know.
[1:59:46] I don't know. I've been married 35
[1:59:47] years, Andrew. I don't know.
[1:59:49] >> I mean, she's Spanish, so it's really
[1:59:51] complex, but you get my point, right? I
[1:59:54] do.
[1:59:54] >> And and [laughter] and but but this is
[1:59:56] the thing, and this is the this is the
[1:59:58] problem that we face. You need an
[2:00:01] integrated brain. You get two
[2:00:02] hemispheres for a reason. And a corpus
[2:00:04] colossum to to connect between the two
[2:00:06] hemispheres. You get that because you
[2:00:07] got the the I'm going to go to work. I'm
[2:00:09] going to earn money. How to and what?
[2:00:11] Why? Because I love my family. Because I
[2:00:14] want to create value. because I want to
[2:00:16] do something important in the world.
[2:00:17] Right hemisphere, left hemisphere, right
[2:00:19] hemisphere. And when that's cut off and
[2:00:21] when you're stuck in the left
[2:00:22] hemisphere, for example, looking at your
[2:00:25] phone 205 times a day and taking, you
[2:00:27] know, an endless algorithm of useless
[2:00:29] information is fed to you, then meaning
[2:00:33] will be absent because you can only
[2:00:35] assess it on the complex side. And
[2:00:37] that's the biggest problem we face. You
[2:00:39] want to know the biggest crisis we face
[2:00:40] in happiness? It's meaning. And that's
[2:00:42] why [snorts]
[2:00:43] >> so how can somebody take steps to enrich
[2:00:49] the um the amount and the type of the
[2:00:52] array of meaning in in their life. You
[2:00:55] and I have done both a lot of work um in
[2:00:58] the world of addiction personally and
[2:01:01] professionally. And addiction is
[2:01:03] unbelievably interesting. It's endlessly
[2:01:05] fascinating how the human brain is is is
[2:01:08] captured. And and one of the things that
[2:01:10] you find is when people finally are not
[2:01:12] in the grip of addiction, there's three
[2:01:14] things that have to happen. Number one
[2:01:16] is they get pissed. That's what all
[2:01:18] addicts do. They they they get pissed
[2:01:20] and they rebel and they're like, "No, no
[2:01:22] more." You ever seen, you know, and
[2:01:24] you've seen people in 12step programs
[2:01:26] and they're like they might laugh about
[2:01:29] the crazy things that happened to them,
[2:01:30] but they finally like no more. I'm not
[2:01:33] going to put up with this anymore. You
[2:01:34] got to get pissed and rebel. The second
[2:01:36] thing that they do is they actually they
[2:01:39] understand something about the mechanism
[2:01:42] of becoming deaddicted and it's
[2:01:43] different in different ways. You're
[2:01:44] addicted to gambling, you're addicted to
[2:01:45] pornography, if you're addicted to
[2:01:46] alcohol, addicted to drugs, there's
[2:01:48] different mechanisms for becoming
[2:01:50] deaddicted. And of course, that's that's
[2:01:52] very complicated and very very hard and
[2:01:54] it requires science and you know and and
[2:01:56] and clinical practice etc etc. But the
[2:01:59] last part is actually the most difficult
[2:02:01] which is living in a new way living with
[2:02:03] you. You know, it's like it's one of the
[2:02:06] things that alcoholics always do. They
[2:02:08] always do this is they move. They always
[2:02:11] move. And they're like, "Dude, if I
[2:02:13] move, I'm it's like all these losers
[2:02:15] that are around me and I'm not going to
[2:02:16] see any of those people and I'm not
[2:02:18] going to be living upstairs from a
[2:02:20] liquor store and for God's sake, moving
[2:02:22] is going to do the trick. I'm going to
[2:02:23] change my circumstances." And of course,
[2:02:25] it never works because the first thing
[2:02:26] that jumps out of your suitcase is you
[2:02:30] with your alcoholic brain. That's the
[2:02:32] problem. And so you have to learn to
[2:02:34] live with you is the hard thing that
[2:02:36] actually comes from this. We [snorts]
[2:02:38] are deeply deeply deeply addicted. We're
[2:02:41] deeply technologically addicted. We're
[2:02:43] hooked into this thing. We all know
[2:02:44] this. You've talked about it at Infin
[2:02:46] Item. So have I. John Height, who's been
[2:02:48] on your show, has talked about the the
[2:02:49] affliction that we actually have. That's
[2:02:52] what we have to do. My work is
[2:02:54] fundamentally about how to rage against
[2:02:56] the machine to get pissed off enough.
[2:02:58] And even more than that, it's
[2:03:00] fundamentally about how to live with
[2:03:01] you, how to live differently. Cuz when
[2:03:03] you live with you, then you're in the
[2:03:06] right hemisphere of your brain. And you
[2:03:08] have to have right hemispheric
[2:03:09] experiences. Which, by the way, my
[2:03:10] great-grandfather, Leroy Brooks, he was
[2:03:13] in the right hemisphere all day long. He
[2:03:15] spent all day looking at a mule's butt.
[2:03:18] And he never came home and said to my
[2:03:20] great-grandmother, "Honey, I had a panic
[2:03:21] attack behind a mule today." No. And he
[2:03:25] also had never said, you know, my life
[2:03:26] is so boring.
[2:03:28] And and part of the reason was because
[2:03:30] his brain wasn't broken. His brain was
[2:03:32] working the way it was actually supposed
[2:03:33] to. But that's not ordinary today. And
[2:03:36] so what we need to do number one is we
[2:03:38] need to break the cycle. And then we
[2:03:40] need to live in an old-fashioned way.
[2:03:42] That's what it comes down to. That's how
[2:03:44] we find the meaning in our lives. And
[2:03:46] and breaking the cycle, by the way, I
[2:03:48] mean, we all know the research. You've
[2:03:49] had it on your show. I've taken huge
[2:03:51] amounts of knowledge from you
[2:03:53] >> on this. You can break the cycle of of
[2:03:56] technological addiction in your life
[2:03:57] simply by doing first hour of the day,
[2:03:59] last hour of the day, and meal times
[2:04:01] simply doing that. There's tons of
[2:04:02] research that shows that the
[2:04:04] neurokcognitive programming that happens
[2:04:05] in your first hour awake, the
[2:04:07] relationship programming and the sleep
[2:04:09] architecture that you wire in the last
[2:04:10] hour of your day and then and then and
[2:04:13] then the the the neuropeptides that
[2:04:15] you'll actually elicit by eating with
[2:04:16] other people without devices. Your bra
[2:04:18] your your relationship to technology
[2:04:19] will change, but you got to break the
[2:04:21] cycle. And there's tons of resources out
[2:04:23] there. How [snorts] do you live in a
[2:04:25] different way? Well, how do people
[2:04:28] illuminate the right hemisphere of their
[2:04:29] brains? They they they ask ungooable
[2:04:32] questions,
[2:04:34] >> right? Like why am I alive for? What
[2:04:36] would I give my life? You know, the deep
[2:04:38] philosophical questions. And that's what
[2:04:40] philosophy and spirituality and religion
[2:04:43] bring to you is the deep questions that
[2:04:45] are fundamentally ungooable. And that's
[2:04:47] one of the reasons that the hemispheric
[2:04:49] lateralization literature shows that
[2:04:50] when you're when you're in these spaces
[2:04:53] that your right hemisphere is
[2:04:54] fundamentally illuminated. You can train
[2:04:57] a gorilla to answer all kinds of
[2:04:59] questions but not ask interesting
[2:05:01] fundamental questions. That's humanity.
[2:05:03] That's godlike is to ask questions. It's
[2:05:06] to fall in love as a right hemispheric
[2:05:09] experience. It's deep deep mystery. It's
[2:05:12] like I that's the reason it's so scary.
[2:05:15] I don't know. I can't solve this
[2:05:17] problem. Somebody answer this question
[2:05:19] for me. No, man. You got to live it. You
[2:05:21] got to live it for the end of your days.
[2:05:23] That's why finding your calling. Why you
[2:05:26] and I were we have so much meaning
[2:05:28] through our work because we're living
[2:05:29] our calling. This is what we're meant to
[2:05:31] do. That's why a calling is what you're
[2:05:33] meant to do. It has the word meaning in
[2:05:34] it. That's why worshiping God, living in
[2:05:37] the the luminescent divine. That's why
[2:05:41] trying to become a syasi as the Indians
[2:05:44] would say is so critically important.
[2:05:46] That's why beauty, moral beauty,
[2:05:47] artistic beauty, natural beauty, these
[2:05:49] are right hemispheric experiences. And
[2:05:52] that's why suffering is so important
[2:05:54] because suffering helps you understand
[2:05:56] the meaning of your life per se.
[2:05:58] Suffering is where everybody's like when
[2:06:00] did you know who you really really were?
[2:06:01] How did you know what you were made of?
[2:06:03] They'll tell you something bad. Oh, that
[2:06:05] week at the beach in Etha.
[2:06:08] No. When my mom died, I loved her. When
[2:06:12] somebody left me at the altar, when I
[2:06:15] got fired, when I lost my business, god
[2:06:19] forbid, when I lost a child, people look
[2:06:20] back and they say, "That was the moment.
[2:06:23] That was when I knew." Why? Because
[2:06:25] that's when we were truly integrated.
[2:06:27] That's when we became integrated human
[2:06:28] beings. That's what it means to be fully
[2:06:30] alive, to find meaning. And ultimately,
[2:06:32] that is the path to happiness.
[2:06:35] >> Let that sink in for people. That's the
[2:06:38] real wisdom. And I I I'm going to stop
[2:06:41] you cuz I know you're super humble and
[2:06:42] you're going to pass it off on to
[2:06:43] someone else or something else. But um
[2:06:46] uh you really have a gift. Uh and it it
[2:06:49] comes through.
[2:06:49] >> Thank you, Andrew. That means a lot
[2:06:50] coming from you.
[2:06:51] >> Yeah, you really do because it like a
[2:06:54] lot of different ways people can say
[2:06:55] important things, but sometimes things
[2:06:57] just land and they just need to sit for
[2:06:59] a sec. So, um,
[2:07:02] >> I have some questions from that were
[2:07:03] prompted in your book, but I want to
[2:07:05] make sure that we return to this notion
[2:07:07] of faith. It's not something we talk a
[2:07:08] lot about on this podcast. I've talked
[2:07:09] about as a guest on other podcasts, but
[2:07:11] but you and I had a conversation about
[2:07:13] that. And I think probably by the time
[2:07:14] that this episode airs,
[2:07:16] >> that conversation at Stanford will also
[2:07:18] be public.
[2:07:19] >> Yes.
[2:07:20] >> And I recommend people watch it because
[2:07:22] that was really moving for me to have
[2:07:25] that conversation with you.
[2:07:27] to talk about your journey and you know
[2:07:29] the the the
[2:07:30] I mean it's really easy to get into the
[2:07:33] the physical fitness of life but the
[2:07:36] metaphysical fitness of life is a
[2:07:37] different
[2:07:38] >> different experience.
[2:07:40] >> The real like eye opener the first one
[2:07:42] for me was oh like
[2:07:45] striving for perfection it it might be
[2:07:49] perfection in quotes might be the goal
[2:07:51] but like no one attains that no human
[2:07:53] attains that. So be careful to not ask
[2:07:56] humans for answers that are not
[2:07:59] >> possible to come from human beings. And
[2:08:02] that's where that eventually moved to a
[2:08:04] a a real a real faith, a belief in God,
[2:08:07] a uh a prayer practice that is at least
[2:08:09] for me it's it's the most consistent
[2:08:12] feature of my life for the last now
[2:08:14] almost 3 years. And it's been
[2:08:16] interesting to be in a relationship
[2:08:17] where we've like gone to church together
[2:08:19] and and to pray together or to just pray
[2:08:21] with somebody, right? And when [snorts]
[2:08:23] we parted ways at Stanford after the
[2:08:25] Veraritoss meeting, um it was so
[2:08:27] interesting because we said goodbye. We
[2:08:28] did the usual like hug like, "See you
[2:08:30] soon, brother. Look me up." And you
[2:08:32] said, "I'll pray for you." And you said,
[2:08:34] "And if you don't mind, pray for me,
[2:08:35] too." And I've been doing that. And it's
[2:08:37] it's a Now, some people might hear this
[2:08:39] and be like, "Oh, boy. Here we go."
[2:08:41] Couple of scientists talking about
[2:08:42] >> But if one just like entertains the
[2:08:45] possibility that maybe humans don't have
[2:08:47] all the answers.
[2:08:48] >> Yeah. That's like a great vista to like
[2:08:52] skeptically look out. Yeah,
[2:08:53] >> that's kind of how I think felt like a
[2:08:56] couple of years ago. It's kind of like
[2:08:58] and then you know over time I've
[2:09:00] migrated very far forward. But I think
[2:09:03] that the whole thing of being um
[2:09:07] like faith I realize isn't this thing
[2:09:09] that one necessarily especially like me
[2:09:11] if you didn't grow up with a lot of it
[2:09:12] in your family you know just like run
[2:09:14] and fall like in like like new best
[2:09:16] friend you know [laughter] it takes some
[2:09:18] it it doesn't have to happen that way
[2:09:20] but I think people see that
[2:09:21] >> and if it does it can be very brittle by
[2:09:22] the way
[2:09:23] >> and people see baptisms and they assume
[2:09:24] okay like into the water and you just
[2:09:26] like embrace right
[2:09:27] >> born again
[2:09:28] >> right
[2:09:29] >> right it's this like like thick black
[2:09:31] line that you
[2:09:32] type thing. And and one thing that I've
[2:09:34] learned from observing you and from
[2:09:36] >> conversations with you is that like
[2:09:40] >> it's allowed to be gradual.
[2:09:41] >> Yeah.
[2:09:42] >> You it's okay
[2:09:44] >> to be skeptical, to move forward, to
[2:09:46] move back, to um to explore, to to
[2:09:50] wonder like because that's all the stuff
[2:09:52] of being of having a human brain.
[2:09:54] >> Yeah.
[2:09:54] >> And God probably wants that for us.
[2:09:57] >> Yeah. And so I' I've been very very
[2:09:59] moved by your teachings on what at
[2:10:02] Veraritoss that day because for those
[2:10:03] that haven't seen it yet and and weren't
[2:10:05] there, it was very clear that there was
[2:10:07] like a seasoned pro in there. Arthur
[2:10:09] grew up with a lot of structured
[2:10:10] religion and prayer practice in his in
[2:10:12] his home and I did not and coming to
[2:10:14] this rather late. So I was like the
[2:10:15] newbie and it was so much it was so
[2:10:17] liberating for me to be on a stage where
[2:10:20] in a room full of people where I was
[2:10:21] certain I was in the bottom 1% of
[2:10:24] knowledgeable about the topic and that
[2:10:26] was what I could talk about and not
[2:10:28] knowing. Right. It was so beautiful the
[2:10:30] humility that you actually brought to
[2:10:31] that to say I don't know. I don't know
[2:10:33] man. I'm just fumbling around here. I'm
[2:10:35] just doing my best. I what what I have
[2:10:37] written on my heart is that there is
[2:10:39] something here and I want more.
[2:10:41] >> And this is somebody who's you
[2:10:42] >> that's it. By the way, this is
[2:10:45] >> according to the you know the great
[2:10:46] sages. This is not proof of God but it's
[2:10:49] evidence of something. Evidence of the
[2:10:52] existence of water is thirst. Evidence
[2:10:54] of the existence of sex is sexual
[2:10:56] desire.
[2:10:57] We want and there are no
[2:10:59] anthropologically any evidence of
[2:11:01] societies that are systematically
[2:11:02] secular. On the contrary, all human
[2:11:04] societies that we've been able to
[2:11:06] ascertain have a sense of the divine,
[2:11:09] have a sense of the things that we
[2:11:11] actually cannot see and we have an
[2:11:12] innate desire for it. Not every single
[2:11:14] person watching us and not everybody in
[2:11:16] the exact same way. This is something
[2:11:18] that's characteristic of humanity.
[2:11:20] Otherwise, it would be absolutely
[2:11:21] evolved out of us. And by the way,
[2:11:23] that's evidence
[2:11:25] that the divine exists is that we want
[2:11:27] the divine.
[2:11:28] >> It's our desire. It's like the thirst.
[2:11:31] >> It's evidence of of an appetite is
[2:11:33] evidence of the existence of its object.
[2:11:36] That's a classic philosophical argument.
[2:11:40] It's and and and again, that's not ev
[2:11:42] that's not evidence that God exists.
[2:11:43] That's not proof that God exists because
[2:11:45] you can't prove it. that faith is is is
[2:11:48] belief in a non in something that is
[2:11:50] fundamentally based on a non-estable
[2:11:52] hypothesis which is super hard for you
[2:11:53] and me because testable hypothesis
[2:11:56] that's where the action is. That's how
[2:11:58] we got hired at these fancy universities
[2:12:00] is testing testable hypothesis and yet
[2:12:03] the essence of living on the edge of the
[2:12:05] adventure of life as a scientist is to
[2:12:09] be in the realm of non-estable
[2:12:11] hypotheses of things that you deeply
[2:12:12] know in your heart exist. That's
[2:12:15] hardcore. That's what I want. That's the
[2:12:17] That's the bite out of life that I want
[2:12:19] to take.
[2:12:20] >> But in keeping with this analogy earlier
[2:12:22] about anorexia, and I'm not trying to
[2:12:24] insult anyone here. I'm also speaking
[2:12:26] about,
[2:12:28] >> you know, many many people whom I deeply
[2:12:30] respect who will say, "I don't have that
[2:12:32] craving. I don't they don't have that
[2:12:34] that wish. They don't have that thirst."
[2:12:36] Right?
[2:12:37] >> And I can imagine there probably two
[2:12:38] responses to that. One is that um
[2:12:40] something has been um deafly slid in
[2:12:44] front of them to give them the illusion
[2:12:46] that they're getting that thing, but
[2:12:47] it's not that thing, right? That they've
[2:12:50] made other aspects of life their I don't
[2:12:52] want to say their god, but it sort of
[2:12:53] filled in that that
[2:12:54] >> maybe the terror of death, all that
[2:12:56] Ernest Becker stuff and Yeah.
[2:12:58] >> Yeah. Or at the other extreme, it could
[2:13:00] be a sort of um spiritual anorexia,
[2:13:02] right? Like the circuits have like let's
[2:13:04] give them some credit. Maybe the
[2:13:05] circuits have actually modified to the
[2:13:08] point where the reward is in not wanting
[2:13:11] to satisfy the cra the craving cuz the
[2:13:13] brain will do this too. This is what's
[2:13:15] so weird about these uh uh reinforce I I
[2:13:18] prefer the word reinforcement to reward
[2:13:20] because it involves a it's it's more uh
[2:13:24] accurate because it's about closing a
[2:13:26] loop with desire and behavior. Reset
[2:13:28] desire behavior.
[2:13:29] >> That's the wanting, learning, liking
[2:13:31] cycle. It's based on reinforcement,
[2:13:32] >> right? So the reinforce like dopamine
[2:13:34] and reinforcement always works. Dopamine
[2:13:36] and reward it's complicated like you can
[2:13:38] stimulate dopamine through pain
[2:13:41] [clears throat]
[2:13:41] >> and no and part of it is the offset of
[2:13:43] pain. It's rewarding.
[2:13:45] >> This is one of the reasons that heroin
[2:13:47] addicts like the feel of the pinch of
[2:13:49] the needle going into the vein,
[2:13:51] >> right? That that that part that is the
[2:13:53] pain is part of the reward per se
[2:13:55] because it's actually reinforcing the
[2:13:56] behavioral pattern. Exactly your point.
[2:13:58] If there was such a thing as a a mild
[2:14:02] spiritual anorexia where people are
[2:14:05] actually getting pleasure from the fact
[2:14:07] that they are not interested in any of
[2:14:08] that
[2:14:09] >> and they got enough and they feel good
[2:14:11] not knowing right
[2:14:12] >> you hear this and I want to give um in
[2:14:15] fairness I want to acknowledge those
[2:14:16] people exist
[2:14:18] >> and they're like good with the fact that
[2:14:20] they don't have a relationship like a
[2:14:23] higher power relationship of belief in
[2:14:25] God they don't have faith they don't
[2:14:27] seem to have this thirst
[2:14:28] And the lack of it almost sounds in some
[2:14:31] cases like it's rewarding to them.
[2:14:33] >> There's a pride that actually comes from
[2:14:34] being nun, not an nu, n o n e. It's a
[2:14:38] designation. It's an identity actually.
[2:14:40] It's who I am as a person. I don't
[2:14:42] actually need that.
[2:14:43] >> And and by the way, there are all very
[2:14:46] compelling explanations that are not
[2:14:47] consistent or necessarily consistent
[2:14:50] with the idea that there's an all-
[2:14:51] knowing, allloving God. I mean Steven
[2:14:53] Cave at Cambridge has written a has a
[2:14:55] really beautiful book called
[2:14:56] immortality. Have you actually seen it?
[2:14:58] Have you read it? And and he's a
[2:14:59] philosopher and he talks about the fact
[2:15:01] that the human brain is able to is able
[2:15:03] to cap to capture the concept of
[2:15:05] physical death. You know you're going to
[2:15:07] die and you're you're completely
[2:15:09] comfortable in that knowledge. You don't
[2:15:11] might not like it. You might not want it
[2:15:13] now, but you know you're going to die.
[2:15:14] But your brain is incapable of of
[2:15:17] understanding non-existence. So, you
[2:15:19] know you're going to die, but you can't
[2:15:20] understand non-existence because that's
[2:15:22] goes beyond our cognitive capacities.
[2:15:24] And so, you got to resolve it. One way
[2:15:26] to deal with it is to not deal with it,
[2:15:28] to never think about it. Stay drunk and
[2:15:30] high or stay busy and be a complete
[2:15:32] workaholic. Stay busy. Another way to
[2:15:35] deal with it is to create a resolution
[2:15:38] that says, "I'm going to die, but I'm
[2:15:39] I'm going to continue to exist." And so,
[2:15:41] I can understand that. And that would be
[2:15:43] a social explanation for the concept of
[2:15:45] religion. Some neurobiologists, you
[2:15:48] know, back in the day in the 1990s and
[2:15:49] early 2000s were doing work on the God
[2:15:51] module in the brain and they were using
[2:15:53] these these mag, you know, remember
[2:15:55] those magnetic helmets that they were
[2:15:56] doing on this thing and and what they
[2:15:57] would do is they would stimulate the
[2:15:59] same part of the brain that's that's
[2:16:00] touched with people who have, you know,
[2:16:02] grandma seizures. And so a lot of people
[2:16:04] who have epileptic seizures events that
[2:16:08] they'll have it'll be a mystical
[2:16:10] experience. And you know, if you're, for
[2:16:12] example, a Catholic nun and you have an
[2:16:14] apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary,
[2:16:16] the protocol from the bishop is to check
[2:16:18] you for epilepsy first because it might
[2:16:21] just be that you had undiagnosed
[2:16:23] epilepsy and you had a seizure and it
[2:16:25] made you have a mystical experience,
[2:16:27] right? Okay, I get it. You know, and
[2:16:28] then these are ways to actually say
[2:16:29] that, you know, Andrew and Arthur are
[2:16:31] going off the reservation here. They're
[2:16:32] not being good scientists. There are
[2:16:34] plenty good philosophical and
[2:16:36] neuroscientific explanations for the
[2:16:37] experience of God, per se. For me, that
[2:16:41] is uncompelling. And part of the reason
[2:16:42] that that's uncompelling for me is that
[2:16:45] I've been walking through across the
[2:16:46] earth for the last 62 years, and I can't
[2:16:48] get it out of my mind. I'm not worried
[2:16:50] about not the problem of non-existence.
[2:16:52] It's not that it's been resolved, but
[2:16:54] this is not a preoccupation of mine. And
[2:16:56] and quite frankly there are lots and
[2:16:58] lots and lots of times that I don't feel
[2:17:00] a single you know a single molecule of
[2:17:04] emotional faith on the contrary but I
[2:17:07] have a strong sense of the existence of
[2:17:10] the creator song strong sense of the
[2:17:12] divine do I understand him no I have a
[2:17:14] very imperfect physics for full
[2:17:17] disclosure I'm a Catholic and I go to
[2:17:18] mass every day why do I do that I do
[2:17:21] that because not because I feel it not
[2:17:24] even because I leave, but because I'm
[2:17:27] serving this intuition through practice.
[2:17:31] And by the way, for everybody who's
[2:17:33] watching us who's like, I don't know,
[2:17:34] maybe, but I don't feel it. So what? So
[2:17:38] what? You know, if I if anybody who's
[2:17:40] married, they know that if you went
[2:17:42] according to your feelings, you will not
[2:17:44] stay married a month. You absolutely
[2:17:46] won't. You don't even go according to
[2:17:47] your belief in the in the institution of
[2:17:49] marriage. You go you stay married
[2:17:51] because you practice marriage. And the
[2:17:53] same thing is true with your
[2:17:54] relationship with anybody, including
[2:17:56] with God. Start with practice.
[2:17:59] Occasionally, you'll believe and very
[2:18:01] occasionally you'll feel it. That's the
[2:18:03] way the whole relationship actually
[2:18:04] works. Andrew, that's the protocol.
[2:18:07] [laughter]
[2:18:08] >> I was happy to hear that the bishop has
[2:18:09] protocols.
[2:18:11] >> They do. But the protocol for individual
[2:18:13] faith is not feeling, belief, practice.
[2:18:16] It's practice, belief, feeling. without
[2:18:19] any attempt to take away from the the
[2:18:21] depth and and um and impact of what you
[2:18:26] just described. Uh I sat across at this
[2:18:29] very table from Pavl Satsulan who's one
[2:18:31] of like the most revered strength
[2:18:32] trainers in the world, right? And and he
[2:18:34] said like
[2:18:35] >> and he he said my as you occasionally
[2:18:38] he'd say my name Andrew and he like tell
[2:18:40] me something and I you know and he and
[2:18:42] he said
[2:18:43] >> you don't weightlift, you don't work
[2:18:45] out. He's like you practice strength
[2:18:47] training. Yeah.
[2:18:49] >> And it and I was like, "Oh, I sort of
[2:18:51] get it. I Okay. Yeah, we can call it one
[2:18:53] thing or another." He's like, "No, no,
[2:18:54] you every time you do it, you're
[2:18:56] practicing to get better at it." And
[2:18:57] that changes the whole motivational
[2:18:59] structure is is what he essentially was
[2:19:02] saying. And that changes your
[2:19:03] expectation of what you're going to get
[2:19:04] out of it,
[2:19:05] >> right?
[2:19:05] >> It's yes, you expect to get stronger,
[2:19:08] but it's this this notion that you're
[2:19:10] always the student of yourself. you're
[2:19:12] always the student of this process and
[2:19:14] you never really expect to like conquer
[2:19:16] it because there's always more weight
[2:19:18] you could add. Yeah. Now this is a very
[2:19:20] mechanical physical analogy to what
[2:19:23] you're describing but there's an
[2:19:24] important I think um elegance um in what
[2:19:27] he said and what you said and the
[2:19:29] similarity there I think is synergistic
[2:19:31] which is
[2:19:32] >> when something is a practice we are not
[2:19:35] focused on the outcome as much as we are
[2:19:37] the process that's you know fairly
[2:19:39] straightforward
[2:19:40] >> but then there's this almost like higher
[2:19:42] order thing that comes from that because
[2:19:44] it predicts with near certainty that
[2:19:47] you'll continue doing it. Whereas if
[2:19:49] you're trying to obtain the like grab
[2:19:51] the ring, get the prize, get the ribbon,
[2:19:53] lift the weight, that has a ceiling to
[2:19:55] it. And so what you're really talking
[2:19:57] about in the the real form of the word
[2:19:59] is ascension. Like through practice
[2:20:01] there's like ascension like otherwise
[2:20:03] like there's only there's the top
[2:20:04] podium,
[2:20:05] >> right?
[2:20:06] >> There's in science there's a Nobel
[2:20:07] Prize, you know, like there are these
[2:20:09] awards like you know, but the like those
[2:20:11] are things again that are human like we
[2:20:14] set those levels. But the laws of
[2:20:16] physics have an upper limit,
[2:20:18] >> but what you're talking about doesn't
[2:20:20] have an upper limit. Like like we can't
[2:20:22] say this person experienced God more
[2:20:24] than anybody else. And that's the goal.
[2:20:26] Yeah.
[2:20:27] >> Like there's there there is no ceiling
[2:20:29] to this this relationship.
[2:20:31] >> The way that the that that in Vadic
[2:20:32] wisdom, the way that this is understood,
[2:20:34] they have a very very elegant way of of
[2:20:36] understanding this. And and by the way,
[2:20:38] the idea of practice, no joke. You you
[2:20:40] practice your marriage. You practice in
[2:20:43] in your job. You practice friendship and
[2:20:46] you practice your religion for precisely
[2:20:48] the same reason that you practice
[2:20:50] lifting weights as opposed to just
[2:20:53] lifting weights. You practice it because
[2:20:55] practice you get better. You the
[2:20:57] progress principle. We've already talked
[2:20:58] about that. But the way the Indians talk
[2:21:00] about that over the course of a life is
[2:21:02] this and it's based on this empirical
[2:21:04] regularity. This is a weird thing.
[2:21:05] People tend to get more religious as
[2:21:06] they get older. And you know, James
[2:21:08] Fowler, the sociologist, wrote about
[2:21:10] this. He says, "People, you know, they
[2:21:11] wander away and they're in their 20s."
[2:21:13] I'm like, "Yeah, come on, man. I mean, a
[2:21:15] an all knowing, all loving God." Well,
[2:21:17] explain kids getting sick and dying. And
[2:21:20] and so they're like, "No, explain
[2:21:21] suffering, right? Explain suffering."
[2:21:23] And you and I have talked about this
[2:21:24] before. You know, we were at Stanford.
[2:21:25] We talked about the problem of pain and
[2:21:26] the problem of suffering. But when
[2:21:28] they're in their 40s, what what Fowler
[2:21:30] uh notices is people get more religious
[2:21:32] for the following reason. When you're in
[2:21:34] your 40s, that's when you're like,
[2:21:35] "Yeah, you know what? Nothing makes
[2:21:37] sense." [laughter] Actually, nothing
[2:21:40] makes sense.
[2:21:40] >> You've done enough that you can say
[2:21:41] that.
[2:21:41] >> Yeah. You can actually I I'm not going
[2:21:43] to resolve everything. You you want a
[2:21:45] closed form solution to life all the way
[2:21:47] through your 20s and 30s. You think that
[2:21:49] there's a a kind of a calculus to it
[2:21:51] >> and you realize that these are these are
[2:21:53] computational methods to everything that
[2:21:55] you're doing, which means you no there's
[2:21:57] no closed form solution. You got to get
[2:21:59] a simulation going here to to just to
[2:22:01] use I'm an old operations research
[2:22:03] analyst. So yeah, there's no closed form
[2:22:05] solution to anything you really care
[2:22:06] about which is you know the result of it
[2:22:09] is everything's messy and and you're
[2:22:11] much more comfortable with the cognitive
[2:22:13] dissonance of the problem of pain and
[2:22:15] the result of it is that you actually
[2:22:17] look for something that has these
[2:22:18] transcendent properties notwithstanding
[2:22:20] the contradictions that you actually see
[2:22:22] around you. The way that the Indians
[2:22:24] talk about that interest is as follows.
[2:22:26] Life is in four quarters. This is called
[2:22:28] the theory of the ashramas which is a
[2:22:31] Sanskrit word you know for for quarters
[2:22:32] of life and the ideal life is 100 years
[2:22:34] long and each one of these is 25 years
[2:22:36] but your results may vary right the
[2:22:38] first quarter is brahmacharia which
[2:22:40] means the student phase learn learn the
[2:22:42] second is grihasta which is the
[2:22:44] householder phase earn build earn build
[2:22:47] family business
[2:22:48] >> that's up to 50
[2:22:49] >> that's up to 50 but at 50 you have a
[2:22:52] second adolescence that leads you into
[2:22:53] vana prrasta which is a a a word in
[2:22:56] Sanskrit that means It's from two words
[2:22:59] vana and prosta meaning retiring into
[2:23:01] the forest retirement and forest and
[2:23:04] it's a metaphor you back into the forest
[2:23:06] right and and what you're doing is
[2:23:08] you're actually gradually moving away
[2:23:10] from not from doing your job you know
[2:23:13] not from your relationships but from the
[2:23:16] scoreboard from the honors of the world
[2:23:18] and what are you doing you're getting
[2:23:20] into an elite training for the last
[2:23:22] quarter which is sasa which that is the
[2:23:25] to sit in the luminescence of the
[2:23:27] divine, of the godhead, of Brahman in
[2:23:29] Hinduism is the whole idea. But that
[2:23:32] requires super elite training. You're
[2:23:34] not going to get to 75 and and and
[2:23:36] experience time because time for people
[2:23:38] who are very religious or very
[2:23:39] spiritual. Time is completely different
[2:23:42] than the success addict who's like
[2:23:43] time's running out. [groaning]
[2:23:46] Got to do more more more like hideonic
[2:23:48] treadmill. For people who are very very
[2:23:50] spiritual, time becomes less forward
[2:23:53] moving and and more sort of lateral. It
[2:23:56] kind of spreads out like the delta of a
[2:23:57] river where it slows down and you can't
[2:24:00] tell where the ocean begins and the
[2:24:02] river finishes. That's your life. That
[2:24:04] that's what it means to sit in the
[2:24:06] luminescence of God. And when death
[2:24:07] comes, it's simply it's a it's a
[2:24:10] process. It's gradual. It's not binary
[2:24:13] at all. Notwithstanding the fact that we
[2:24:14] can actually say where the electricity
[2:24:15] of the brain stops. It it is a deeply
[2:24:18] deeply spiritual and comfortable thing.
[2:24:21] But that requires the elite training of
[2:24:23] anoprasta. not after 50 necessarily
[2:24:25] because most people listening to us if
[2:24:27] they're enlightened it might be they're
[2:24:29] 29 or they're 36 but the the elite
[2:24:33] training of and the elite training is
[2:24:35] actually not you know memorizing the
[2:24:37] whole Bible it's asking the deep
[2:24:39] questions who am I who is God who
[2:24:42] created this what is love am I loved can
[2:24:45] I love these are the deep metaphysical
[2:24:48] questions that actually lead us to the
[2:24:50] ultimate source of that love and the
[2:24:52] imperfect physics that is organized
[2:24:54] religion.
[2:24:55] >> How are you as a 62year-old
[2:24:59] um exploring this third phase? You
[2:25:01] described your you go to mass every day.
[2:25:03] Is that sometimes online or always in
[2:25:05] person?
[2:25:05] >> Always in person. So, and the great
[2:25:07] thing is, you know, the Catholic church
[2:25:08] is like Starbucks.
[2:25:10] >> It's like it's it's a very uniform
[2:25:12] available product with high quality.
[2:25:14] >> Mhm. [laughter]
[2:25:15] And uh and so you know I go with my wife
[2:25:17] at 6:30 in the morning every when I'm
[2:25:19] home and I'm home usually four days a
[2:25:22] week. I'm on the road 48 weeks a year
[2:25:24] but usually about 3 days a week that I'm
[2:25:26] out sometimes four days a week and you
[2:25:28] know I've got an app click next mass.
[2:25:30] It's great because it's literally the
[2:25:32] same product every place in the world
[2:25:35] 450,000 times a day. It's I'm very lucky
[2:25:38] in this way.
[2:25:38] >> So you're like playing a gym.
[2:25:40] >> So you're up at 4:30 in the morning.
[2:25:41] >> Yeah. And you're in the gym working out
[2:25:44] >> for an hour
[2:25:44] >> six, seven days a week.
[2:25:46] >> Seven days a week.
[2:25:47] >> Seven days a week.
[2:25:47] >> Seven days a week. But it's a 4 day
[2:25:48] cycle. I'm not I'm obviously not doing
[2:25:50] the same thing, right? Have unbelievable
[2:25:51] stress injuries.
[2:25:53] >> Push pull legs yoga. Push pull legs.
[2:25:55] Zone two and yoga.
[2:25:57] >> Super impressive diligence. Um and then
[2:26:00] you're in mass.
[2:26:01] >> Mhm.
[2:26:01] >> And then you move about your day.
[2:26:03] >> Yeah.
[2:26:03] >> Do you have a prayer practice at the end
[2:26:04] of your day?
[2:26:05] >> I do. I I pray the rosary over the
[2:26:07] course of the day. Generally speaking, I
[2:26:08] pray the divine office with my wife,
[2:26:09] which is an ancient monastic set of
[2:26:12] prayers that that monks have been saying
[2:26:13] since St. Benedict in the sixth century.
[2:26:16] >> And that's a that's that that that
[2:26:17] punctuates the day. My wife and I, we do
[2:26:19] it on FaceTime or on the phone. Um, no
[2:26:21] matter where I am, almost any place in
[2:26:23] the world, as a matter of fact, before
[2:26:24] the end of the day. Sometimes if I'm in
[2:26:27] India, which I try to go every year, um,
[2:26:29] while I'm going to sleep, she's saying
[2:26:31] the divine office for for nighttime
[2:26:33] prayers at lunchtime.
[2:26:35] But we do that and we do that together
[2:26:36] because that's a deep deep right brain
[2:26:39] melding. One flesh for a married couple
[2:26:42] should be the union of the right
[2:26:44] hemispheres where you have a deep
[2:26:46] intuitive understanding of life itself
[2:26:49] that you can't quite explain but you
[2:26:51] both understand. That's the satisfaction
[2:26:53] of a marriage.
[2:26:53] >> So this right brain connection you know
[2:26:56] Dr. Alan Shore, right, who's been a
[2:26:58] guest on this podcast and and it I loved
[2:27:00] his book
[2:27:01] >> and um I mean he really emphasized the
[2:27:04] importance of this
[2:27:06] >> right brain connection between
[2:27:08] especially mother and child but also
[2:27:10] father and child uh
[2:27:12] >> husband and wife close friends.
[2:27:13] >> Yeah. that you know that the
[2:27:16] joining you know synchronizing the the
[2:27:18] rise in likeulation and then and then
[2:27:20] and also the troughs right and and and
[2:27:23] then the calm uh piece of no need for
[2:27:26] excitement like that as really the the
[2:27:29] core he was mostly talking about the
[2:27:31] psychology and neurobiology of of what
[2:27:33] real connection is about and so
[2:27:36] beautiful to hear you talk about that
[2:27:38] [snorts] in the context of of a romantic
[2:27:40] relationship
[2:27:40] >> and that's you know the nice thing about
[2:27:41] that we talk about faith family friends
[2:27:43] at work, for example, the apex of family
[2:27:46] and friendship is the spousal
[2:27:48] relationship. That's the apex because
[2:27:50] that's somebody that you've adopted as
[2:27:52] your kin. And it's the neurobiology of
[2:27:53] falling in love is so interesting,
[2:27:56] right? starting with attraction and sex
[2:27:58] hormones, but then but when the
[2:27:59] catakolamines get involved for for you
[2:28:01] know intense desire and and and
[2:28:05] anticipation of reward and the
[2:28:07] abullience that comes from the you know
[2:28:09] the norepinephrine release that actually
[2:28:11] comes and wondering does that text from
[2:28:13] her? It's one word, who cares, right?
[2:28:15] And then the serotonin drop, the deep
[2:28:18] serotonin drop that actually happens
[2:28:20] when you start to ruminate on the other
[2:28:22] person. The sweet misery that comes from
[2:28:23] the rumination on the other person,
[2:28:25] which is, you know, pretty much
[2:28:27] indistinguishable neurobiologically from
[2:28:29] clinical depression, right? It's like
[2:28:32] there's no serotonin in the syninnapse.
[2:28:34] And then last but not least is the is
[2:28:36] the these neuropeptides like oxytocin,
[2:28:38] vasopressin, but especially, you know,
[2:28:40] that that that bond you together and
[2:28:42] companion at love. Mhm.
[2:28:43] >> which is what you actually want. You've
[2:28:45] adopted that person. That's your person.
[2:28:47] That's your kin. That's your best
[2:28:49] friend. That's your lover. That's the
[2:28:51] person who actually shares the right
[2:28:52] hemisphere of the deep meaning of your
[2:28:54] life. And you know, one of the beautiful
[2:28:55] things about romantic love is it helps
[2:28:57] me understand how the philosophy and the
[2:29:00] theology and the neuroscience and the
[2:29:03] psychology. It's all one thing, man.
[2:29:05] It's all one thing. It all comes
[2:29:06] together in this beautiful way. That's
[2:29:08] why it's such a a powerful thing that
[2:29:10] that you and I want in our lives. as you
[2:29:12] and I need in our lives.
[2:29:14] >> Anyone can really start to clearly
[2:29:17] understand how while there are wonderful
[2:29:19] technologies and things available in the
[2:29:21] world that um so much of what we're
[2:29:23] offered and fed and paying for with our
[2:29:26] time, especially our time are ways to um
[2:29:30] shortcircuit the building of these
[2:29:32] things. Whether it's with a romantic
[2:29:34] partner or a vocation or with our
[2:29:36] friends or
[2:29:38] >> workism, alcoholism, pornography, all
[2:29:40] these things.
[2:29:41] >> Pornography is sort of like it like it
[2:29:43] it literally shortcircuits the circuit
[2:29:45] that is supposed to be this magnificent
[2:29:49] immensely complicated like cocktail of
[2:29:52] things that you would call like a really
[2:29:54] truly amazing relationship. And it's
[2:29:56] just it's tapping into one thing. I I'm
[2:29:59] sort of living in the land of analogies
[2:30:01] today, but not unlike when I had a guy
[2:30:03] on my on this podcast uh Chris McCertie
[2:30:05] who studies plant-based uh medicines but
[2:30:08] not psychedelics and he was talking
[2:30:09] about how you know the problem in this
[2:30:11] country is that we learn to isolate and
[2:30:13] synthesize the most potent of the plant
[2:30:15] molecules and they become very
[2:30:17] addictive. So whether they're painillers
[2:30:19] or they're cocaine or they're
[2:30:21] >> but that in the whole plant form these
[2:30:23] things actually had balance.
[2:30:25] >> And so there's a really I think an
[2:30:28] appropriate perhaps um uh analogy there
[2:30:31] that like when we try and get one slice
[2:30:34] of this in high potency and not have to
[2:30:37] risk anything to get it, you lose the
[2:30:39] whole thing.
[2:30:40] >> When you shear something off from the
[2:30:41] whole experience, that's when it
[2:30:42] actually becomes addictive. That's when
[2:30:44] it becomes pathological. Naturally
[2:30:46] speaking, a lot of these processes, a
[2:30:48] lot of the things that we actually
[2:30:49] experience are supposed to be there.
[2:30:50] Look, I mean, we're so good at at at
[2:30:53] taking at at solving a little problem
[2:30:55] and creating a major crisis, you know,
[2:30:57] [laughter] like, man, that's like I got
[2:30:59] a headache. I need something stronger. I
[2:31:02] need something stronger. I need
[2:31:03] something stronger. 100,000 people died
[2:31:04] of, you know, opiate overdoses or
[2:31:06] something last year. This is what
[2:31:08] actually happens. And then there are
[2:31:10] other things that we do as well. And by
[2:31:11] the way, you know, lest we look like
[2:31:14] we're, you know, holier than thou,
[2:31:16] workcoholism is a classic case of this
[2:31:17] as well. It's just that that particular
[2:31:19] addiction sheared off from the natural,
[2:31:22] you know, humane and and even divine
[2:31:24] process of creating value on this earth
[2:31:28] when we become workaholics. The result
[2:31:30] is that people congratulate us for it.
[2:31:32] You know, can you imagine somebody who
[2:31:33] said, "Andrew, you are unbelievably good
[2:31:36] at drinking vodka. You put away two
[2:31:40] 750ml bottles of that last night and and
[2:31:43] and you were completely blacked out, but
[2:31:45] I was amazed at how a great you are.
[2:31:47] You're talented. You're great drink.
[2:31:49] >> This was the college I went to.
[2:31:51] >> Uh you know, and I'm I wasn't a big
[2:31:52] drinker there, but people would try and
[2:31:54] impress each other with how much they
[2:31:55] could drink.
[2:31:56] >> By the time you're our age, however, if
[2:31:57] you're doing that, people are you think
[2:31:59] that you're you're a pathetic drunk. But
[2:32:01] if you're our age, my age, and if I'm 62
[2:32:04] years old, completely neglecting my
[2:32:06] family,
[2:32:07] >> and doing only stuff to run up the
[2:32:09] scoreboard on money and power and fame
[2:32:11] or whatever, people are going to be
[2:32:13] like, "Dude, you're good at your job.
[2:32:15] >> You're awesome." You know, it's like I
[2:32:17] Yeah, you know how many speeches I gave
[2:32:19] last year? You know how many frequent
[2:32:20] flyer miles? People are going to be
[2:32:21] like, "That's really, really
[2:32:22] impressive." But the whole point is
[2:32:24] that's sheared off from the natural
[2:32:25] human experience. It's an addictive
[2:32:27] behavior. It's dangerous. It's
[2:32:29] pathological. It's bad for us and it
[2:32:30] leads to misery.
[2:32:32] >> Yeah. I think what saved me was hearing
[2:32:34] the phrase, I don't know where I heard
[2:32:36] it was, "Everyone loves a young drunk."
[2:32:38] >> Yeah.
[2:32:38] >> And I was like, "Oh, yeah." Like this
[2:32:40] this rolled forward does not look good.
[2:32:42] >> How old were you when you started
[2:32:43] >> in college? I mean, and
[2:32:44] >> you stopped really early.
[2:32:45] >> No, I drank, but I I noticed early on
[2:32:48] mostly because I was doing a lot of
[2:32:49] catchup with my academics and then got
[2:32:51] into physical fitness and I drank
[2:32:53] basically until my early 40s, but less
[2:32:56] and less and less and less and less. Oh,
[2:32:57] you did?
[2:32:57] >> Yeah. And then finally was just like no
[2:32:59] more. I'm done. I'm done.
[2:33:01] >> And um
[2:33:01] >> I drank more and more and more and more
[2:33:02] of this stuff.
[2:33:04] >> But I probably it was very socially um
[2:33:06] unacceptable and isolating to not drink.
[2:33:08] People like academics would be like
[2:33:10] you're boring. But I'd kick their butt
[2:33:12] the next day at the meeting when they're
[2:33:14] all kind of like worked. And then I'd
[2:33:15] see them and I I'm not one of these
[2:33:17] people like things like oh aesthetics
[2:33:18] and muscle and leanness are are all it.
[2:33:20] But I'd see people get tenure and I was
[2:33:22] like you look like you look like
[2:33:24] you aged 25 years and your kids are
[2:33:27] miserable and all I hear are complaints
[2:33:29] about this and I'm like you're not
[2:33:30] taking care of yourself so I don't want
[2:33:32] to be like that.
[2:33:33] >> So I figured
[2:33:34] >> I'm not the smartest but I can work hard
[2:33:36] >> right
[2:33:37] >> u and if I get more years then
[2:33:40] eventually I can catch up or get ahead
[2:33:42] but it wasn't really competitive for me.
[2:33:43] I also just didn't like how it felt. I
[2:33:44] lucked out but in any case with the
[2:33:46] workcoholism as you're describing it
[2:33:49] that is a very dangerous one. Yeah,
[2:33:51] that's usually a secondary affliction
[2:33:53] based on success addiction, the
[2:33:55] addiction to success which comes down to
[2:33:56] that reward, that reinforcement that re
[2:33:59] you get that little reward, the the
[2:34:01] reinforcement of your goodness, the
[2:34:03] understanding of yourself. And so
[2:34:04] success addiction leads to workcoholism.
[2:34:06] Success addiction once again is down is
[2:34:08] really downstream from you know earning
[2:34:10] love from the belief that I can I can be
[2:34:12] enough if I do enough.
[2:34:14] >> The human doing phenomenon is that
[2:34:16] actually what we see. The beautiful
[2:34:18] thing about this is that, you know, I I
[2:34:20] you know, I talk about the behavioral
[2:34:21] science principles. We've touched on the
[2:34:23] philosophy. We've talked about the
[2:34:24] theology. You've talked so much about
[2:34:27] the mechanisms on this show and in your
[2:34:28] writing and in your scholarship about
[2:34:30] the neurobiology behind it. And it we're
[2:34:32] all wonderfully made. This all ties up
[2:34:34] in the same area. There's no it's not
[2:34:36] like one thing leads in one direction
[2:34:38] every and something else leads in
[2:34:40] another. On the contrary, you can get
[2:34:41] there many paths to these truths. The
[2:34:44] real pity is when we're not looking for
[2:34:46] the truth. The real pity is when we're
[2:34:48] distracting ourselves from what it
[2:34:49] actually means to be the people that we
[2:34:51] want to be. Which leads us, you know, to
[2:34:52] the very beginning of this conversation.
[2:34:55] What if you were the person that you
[2:34:56] wanted to be? You know, that's and the
[2:34:59] fact that we can actually do so by
[2:35:01] looking at the space of moral
[2:35:02] aspiration. I think that's a miracle. I
[2:35:04] think that's an incredible miracle.
[2:35:07] >> Before we wrap, I have two things. Um,
[2:35:10] first a question
[2:35:12] >> and then and then a a consideration. So
[2:35:14] I suppose both are questions because the
[2:35:16] consideration is for you. The first
[2:35:18] question is for somebody listening to
[2:35:21] this conversation today. I mean earlier
[2:35:22] we were talking about um exploring one's
[2:35:25] uh choices about and um relationship to
[2:35:29] leisure and you you touched on a number
[2:35:31] of other important points that um you
[2:35:34] know people can return to because we've
[2:35:35] we time stamp these of course. But if
[2:35:38] there's a question or a small set of
[2:35:40] questions that anyone at any age can ask
[2:35:42] themselves that can help them redirect
[2:35:45] or or just better orient in space and
[2:35:47] time and choice making what are those I
[2:35:50] mean or do those do those sorts of
[2:35:52] questions self assessment actually does
[2:35:54] >> no well just you know like if we were
[2:35:56] going to if we would you know share this
[2:35:58] time on an airplane I'm like hey thanks
[2:36:00] and we didn't have cell phones I' be
[2:36:01] like anything else I should think about
[2:36:02] before we part ways like you got any
[2:36:04] suggestions
[2:36:05] >> you know or or a book, recommend,
[2:36:07] whatever. So much of what you've said
[2:36:08] today is fodder for more questions.
[2:36:10] >> Yeah. Um, which is which is means you've
[2:36:12] done which is
[2:36:13] >> our work is so awesome. Yeah.
[2:36:16] >> Like our work is like a self-licking ice
[2:36:17] cream cone.
[2:36:18] >> Yeah. Well, oh man, I haven't heard that
[2:36:20] analogy in a long time. That's how we
[2:36:22] used to describe some grants that we
[2:36:23] were about to deny. [laughter] So, let's
[2:36:25] not do that. So asking about how one
[2:36:27] spends leisure, understanding this
[2:36:29] relationship between um pleasure and
[2:36:31] moral aspiration and and and seeking to
[2:36:34] to fuse those because that clearly is a
[2:36:36] powerfully
[2:36:37] >> great thing to do. Who wouldn't want to
[2:36:40] do more of that? Are there any other
[2:36:41] sort of probe questions that we might
[2:36:43] ask ourselves like once a day or once a
[2:36:45] week? Um
[2:36:46] >> you know while we're leaving the gym or
[2:36:48] mass or whatever.
[2:36:49] >> Yeah. Yeah. What is the Yeah. you know
[2:36:50] and and there are certain things that
[2:36:51] you know inventories that I actually try
[2:36:53] to take you know to make sure that my my
[2:36:55] my my hygiene is appropriate
[2:36:58] >> right
[2:36:59] >> holding yourself to high account is
[2:37:01] unbelievably important holding yourself
[2:37:03] to much higher account than anybody else
[2:37:05] would hold you that's one of the reasons
[2:37:06] that pe the happiest people are the
[2:37:08] people who have a a strong sense of
[2:37:09] propriety that they practice when no one
[2:37:12] sees them
[2:37:13] >> you know that's the essence of being
[2:37:14] honest with yourself you know it's one
[2:37:16] thing to you and I know so many famous
[2:37:18] people and and and and typically they
[2:37:20] have a public persona and a private
[2:37:21] persona just because you have to
[2:37:22] separate those particular things but the
[2:37:24] happiest of famous people which is hard
[2:37:27] because fame is the only one of the
[2:37:28] worldly rewards you can only ever be
[2:37:30] happy in spite of never because of right
[2:37:34] and
[2:37:34] >> that's a better answer to what I I was
[2:37:36] asked earlier but like yes opens
[2:37:38] opportunities limits freedoms but you
[2:37:41] nailed it
[2:37:42] >> those people the people who are happy in
[2:37:44] spite of being famous are the same
[2:37:46] people when you're alone at dinner with
[2:37:48] them as they are in front of 10,000
[2:37:49] people in an arena. They are. And I know
[2:37:51] people like that. I know people like
[2:37:52] Oprah Winfrey is like that.
[2:37:54] >> Oprah Winfrey is the same person at the
[2:37:55] dinner table as she is in a screaming
[2:37:58] arena full of people. And she's a
[2:37:59] well-integrated person. And she's happy
[2:38:01] in spite of the fact that she's one of
[2:38:03] the probably five most famous people in
[2:38:04] the world. You know, it's extraordinary.
[2:38:06] I mean, I just co-authored a book with
[2:38:07] her which was incredible learning
[2:38:09] experience about my own field by
[2:38:12] observing her life, right? But there
[2:38:13] aren't very many people like that. So
[2:38:15] the way to do that is to subject
[2:38:17] yourself to you know the the the queries
[2:38:20] that you would use on somebody else. you
[2:38:22] know what are the what are the probing
[2:38:24] questions and you know and protocols
[2:38:26] that we have it's usually based on you
[2:38:28] know asking people a set of questions
[2:38:30] you know I could walk through what's my
[2:38:32] idol am I serving my idols or a bunch of
[2:38:34] things like that but [snorts]
[2:38:36] fundamentally for example we all can
[2:38:39] fall into suffering about you know sort
[2:38:42] of the sense of emptiness the onwei that
[2:38:44] comes from you know the modern world we
[2:38:46] all feel depressed from time to time
[2:38:48] there is a a set of questions why
[2:38:51] questions
[2:38:52] that interrogates whether or not we
[2:38:54] actually are in touch with the most
[2:38:56] important macronutrient of our own
[2:38:57] happiness, which is the meaning of our
[2:38:58] lives. Here are the three questions, the
[2:39:01] three big wise that I ask myself
[2:39:03] continuously that I I I I probe and I
[2:39:06] have to answer honestly because being
[2:39:09] honest with myself is the essence of
[2:39:11] getting into the moral space. Number
[2:39:13] one, why do I think things actually
[2:39:15] happen the way that they do and am I
[2:39:17] acting accord accordance with that?
[2:39:20] And and for for for a religious person
[2:39:22] like me, if I say, "I think things
[2:39:24] happen the way they do because of the
[2:39:26] will of God, but I'm not acting that
[2:39:27] way," that's going to be a source of
[2:39:29] misery. Am I acting like I believe that
[2:39:32] the will of God exists and is true? Or
[2:39:35] am I acting like everything has to do
[2:39:37] with me, which means I'm freaking out
[2:39:39] about everything. I'm I'm I'm super
[2:39:42] stressed out about, you know, what's
[2:39:43] going to happen tomorrow that's
[2:39:44] completely out of my control. I'm
[2:39:46] anxious all the time. I'm worrying
[2:39:49] continuously. Worry is evidence of a
[2:39:52] lack of faith. And so therefore, if I
[2:39:55] say I'm committing to my faith, it
[2:39:57] immediately extinguishes worry. Right?
[2:39:59] You don't shouldn't feel guilty about
[2:40:00] it. You should act according to the
[2:40:02] person that you are. Number one, that's
[2:40:03] the coherence question for philosophers.
[2:40:05] Why do things happen the way they do? Am
[2:40:07] I acting that way? Second, why am I
[2:40:10] doing what I'm doing? That's the purpose
[2:40:12] question. You know, that's the purpose
[2:40:14] in life. That's purpose and meaning are
[2:40:15] not the same thing. Purpose is a
[2:40:17] subcategory of meaning. Why am I doing
[2:40:20] the things that I am actually doing? And
[2:40:22] then the next question beyond that is
[2:40:26] is that in accord with my beliefs? Am I
[2:40:28] doing the things that I'm doing in
[2:40:30] accord with my beliefs? But why am I
[2:40:31] doing them? And and and by the way, for
[2:40:33] you and me, it might be because I'm
[2:40:34] chasing my idol, because I want more
[2:40:36] control, because I want more adoration
[2:40:38] of strangers, because I want more money.
[2:40:40] Because I want to feel good. Is that in
[2:40:42] accord with my beliefs? And then the
[2:40:44] last part is
[2:40:46] why does my life matter? And that's
[2:40:49] really to whom am I acting according to
[2:40:52] the people to whom my life actually
[2:40:54] matters? Am I acting that way? Am I am I
[2:40:56] marginalizing? And by the way, Andrew,
[2:40:58] I've screwed this up so many times. When
[2:41:00] I was a CEO running this big nonprofit
[2:41:02] organization, which was so important,
[2:41:05] right? I was at one point at the very
[2:41:08] end of it, I was interviewing um a bunch
[2:41:10] of very famous and rich financial
[2:41:13] professionals for a book that I was
[2:41:14] starting to write that came out after I
[2:41:16] left and and when I was already back in
[2:41:18] academia called From Strength to
[2:41:19] Strength. It was a book about getting
[2:41:21] happier as you get older. And this woman
[2:41:23] is like a billionaire. I mean,
[2:41:25] unbelievable. Named firm, famous. And
[2:41:28] she's telling me about her achievements.
[2:41:30] I'm like, "Congratulations. That's
[2:41:31] great." She says, "I'm so unhappy." I
[2:41:33] said, 'Well, talk to me, sister.
[2:41:35] [laughter] What gives? She said, "My
[2:41:37] husband and I were married, but we're
[2:41:39] roommates. You know, I have adult kids
[2:41:42] with a cordial relationship. I think my
[2:41:46] employees are they do what I say, but I
[2:41:48] think they're afraid of me. I don't
[2:41:49] think my decision-m is crisp anymore. I
[2:41:51] don't love it, but I don't know what
[2:41:52] else to do." She said, "I go to the
[2:41:54] doctor, and the doctor says, "You need
[2:41:55] to stop drinking and get into the gym,
[2:41:57] but I keep drinking. I don't go to the
[2:41:58] gym." She said, "I when I grew up, I I
[2:42:00] went to church when I was a little girl,
[2:42:01] and I loved that. I always wanted that
[2:42:03] and I I don't go to church and I don't
[2:42:05] know why. And she says, "Professor, what
[2:42:08] am I supposed to do?" And I said, "You
[2:42:10] don't need a Harvard professor. You just
[2:42:12] wrote your own prescription.
[2:42:14] Take a souvenir in your company and step
[2:42:16] back. Go away with your husband and get
[2:42:18] to know him. Go move closer to your
[2:42:21] kids. Get into AA. Go to the gym. Go
[2:42:23] back to church. Look, it's right there."
[2:42:25] She says, "I know. I know. I know." I
[2:42:28] said, "So why not? Why didn't you do
[2:42:29] that? Why don't you?" She and she was
[2:42:31] silent for a long time and finally she
[2:42:33] said because I've always chosen to be
[2:42:36] special rather than happy. And that was
[2:42:39] like a knife to my heart because at that
[2:42:41] point in my life, me too. You know how
[2:42:44] many little league games I didn't go to?
[2:42:45] Look, little league games are boring.
[2:42:48] Let's be honest. But it's my kids. You
[2:42:51] know how many birthdays that I missed
[2:42:53] because I was trying to be special and
[2:42:55] successful and adored by people who
[2:42:57] don't care about me and and and and it
[2:43:00] and that specialness is that's that's an
[2:43:03] animal impulse that is hardwired into
[2:43:06] us. The moral aspiration is to choose
[2:43:09] happiness over that particular
[2:43:10] specialness. And that's the that's the
[2:43:13] significance question. Why does my life
[2:43:16] matter and to whom? and am I acting in
[2:43:19] accord and responsibly with my answer to
[2:43:22] that question? That's the interrogation.
[2:43:25] You do not disappoint,
[2:43:27] Professor Arthur Brooks.
[2:43:30] >> Awesome. [snorts] Those are great, great
[2:43:31] questions that I will be asking over and
[2:43:34] over and um that uh everyone should
[2:43:38] consider asking and uh trying to answer
[2:43:41] over and over for themselves. So, um I'm
[2:43:43] really moved. I uh me too. You know,
[2:43:46] I've been doing this podcasting thing a
[2:43:47] while now, and every once in a while,
[2:43:48] someone someone sits down here and and
[2:43:50] takes us someplace else. I I I knew you
[2:43:53] were that guy because we had shared the
[2:43:55] conversation before, but you you've
[2:43:57] given me so much to think about. I'm
[2:43:58] going to be listening to this and taking
[2:44:00] notes for for my own reasons.
[2:44:02] >> No, thank you. Thank you. What what an
[2:44:03] honor it is. Um you've blessed me again
[2:44:05] and again and again and again with the
[2:44:07] scientific knowledge you bring to it.
[2:44:08] But the soul you actually bring to the
[2:44:09] science, that's the magic formula
[2:44:12] >> that you actually bring to all your
[2:44:13] work.
[2:44:15] Well, thank you. Um, I have a couple of
[2:44:17] people in my life who are about I've
[2:44:19] always had a couple people in my life
[2:44:20] who are about 10 years older I really
[2:44:22] look up to. I look up to you. I really
[2:44:24] do. I I admire you and um it's a short
[2:44:26] list. Um,
[2:44:27] >> but it's a potent one. And I
[2:44:29] [clears throat] won't tell you who else
[2:44:30] is on camera who else is on there, but
[2:44:32] like it's an it's it's an all-star team.
[2:44:34] I aspire to to to be um more like you.
[2:44:38] And I say that with with like with all
[2:44:40] the respect that you're a human and you
[2:44:42] have your struggles, but I think it's
[2:44:43] important for
[2:44:44] >> uh anyone at a given developmental stage
[2:44:48] to look at people who've you know
[2:44:50] migrated the path more or less that
[2:44:53] they're on and but are ahead of them and
[2:44:54] get some some useful information. So I
[2:44:57] appreciate that. So whether you like it
[2:44:59] or not, you're a mentor to me.
[2:45:00] >> Thank you. Thank you. That means that
[2:45:01] means a world and and we're we're all on
[2:45:03] the path. We're all on the path. We're
[2:45:05] all we all have our life is you know
[2:45:07] that every religious tradition has
[2:45:09] pilgrimages almost every religious
[2:45:11] tradition. Um if you go across India you
[2:45:13] see mendicants that are actually walking
[2:45:14] toward a holy city. In the Christian
[2:45:17] faith we have we have three big
[2:45:18] pilgrimages to Jerusalem to Rome and to
[2:45:21] Santiago the compostella which is the
[2:45:23] Camino de Santiago.
[2:45:24] >> And and these pilgrimages are are
[2:45:26] metaphorical for what we're actually
[2:45:28] trying to do with our lives which is why
[2:45:29] they're they're such deeply mystical and
[2:45:31] spiritual experiences. I recommend that
[2:45:33] everybody go on a 500 mile walk across
[2:45:35] northern Spain from the from the French
[2:45:36] border to Santiago the complet do it on
[2:45:38] your knees did you
[2:45:39] >> I did not do it on my knees but I've
[2:45:40] done it just the last eight days two
[2:45:42] times because my wife won't do more than
[2:45:44] eight days and I love my wife but but
[2:45:45] the point is you have that what you
[2:45:47] realize is that that's a metaphor for
[2:45:48] your life
[2:45:50] >> we're walking through this life we're
[2:45:51] all learning on a pilgrimage Arthur is
[2:45:54] on a pilgrimage every single person
[2:45:55] watching us is on a pilgrimage and that
[2:45:58] means progress but that actually means
[2:45:59] the excellence that actually comes from
[2:46:01] making prog progress in little ways
[2:46:03] every single day and being open to to to
[2:46:06] metaphysical truths.
[2:46:07] >> So, it moves me a lot that that I could
[2:46:09] be, you know, some little stone church
[2:46:13] on the on the side of the road on your
[2:46:14] pilgrimage. Well,
[2:46:15] >> you absolutely are. And in sharing this
[2:46:17] with other people, you are to them, too.
[2:46:20] So, I did say I had one more question
[2:46:22] slashconsideration. So, I'm so inspired
[2:46:26] and and struck by what what you shared
[2:46:28] that I I think it would be um worth
[2:46:32] considering perhaps and don't feel
[2:46:34] obligated to answer here. Maybe we just
[2:46:35] leave it a cliffhanger and then and not
[2:46:37] answer on here or if you want you can.
[2:46:40] People would really benefit from hearing
[2:46:42] from you more in the context of
[2:46:44] structured sets of questions. I know you
[2:46:46] do this on your podcast and we've
[2:46:47] touched on some of that today. of uh
[2:46:49] your books and so forth, but it'd be fun
[2:46:51] to explore the possibility of doing a
[2:46:53] like a self exploration series or uh
[2:46:57] with you at some point and and we could
[2:46:59] figure out the venue if it's on here or
[2:47:00] it's elsewhere. But I if you'd be
[2:47:02] willing to consider like ways we could
[2:47:05] explore things um more fully, also
[2:47:07] selfishly so I can learn more from
[2:47:09] [clears throat] you.
[2:47:10] >> Likewise, my answer is yes.
[2:47:12] >> Awesome.
[2:47:12] >> Let's do it, man. Let's do it. Let's
[2:47:14] like let's get a band together.
[2:47:15] >> Fantastic. I love it. God bless you. God
[2:47:18] bless you too, Andrew. Thank you for all
[2:47:19] the things that you're bringing to me
[2:47:20] and for all the people who are watching.
[2:47:22] I'm honored to be part of this.
[2:47:23] >> Thank you for joining me for today's
[2:47:25] discussion with Dr. Arthur Brooks. To
[2:47:27] learn more about his work and to find
[2:47:28] links to his many excellent books,
[2:47:30] please see the show note caption. If
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[2:49:53] [music]