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Inspiration

Psychedelics, Disillusionment and the Path to Meditation

Culadasa
Culadasa
Mar 24, 2021
8 min de leitura

De Culadasa

Assistir · 8

Culadasa's third "My Journey" episode, posted to his YouTube channel in March 2021 under a title that begins "Experiences don't mean...", is a memoir of the late 1960s told by a man who later became one of the most respected meditation teachers in the Western Buddhist world. Before he was the author of The Mind Illuminated, the speaker, John Yates, was a young seminary student who walked away from school in a state of deep disillusionment, drove west toward the Summer of Love, and spent a stretch of his life as an informal guide for people in the middle of frightening psychedelic experiences. The episode covers that period with unusual candor: the appeal of psychoactive drugs as a shortcut to something real, the role he played helping others through bad trips, and the slow realization that the visions he had were not the same thing as the spiritual states described by the mystics he had grown up reading. What makes the talk worth sitting with is its central question, which the title gestures at: a vivid experience does not automatically tell you anything about what is true.

Leitura · 6 seções

What was happening in the seminary dropout's head in the 1960s?

The story does not begin with drugs. It begins with a collapse. Asked about leaving university, Culadasa is quick to correct the framing of a clean decision. "It was more like I was just so severely disillusioned that I couldn't do it anymore. It's not as though I could have decided, well, I'm going to go ahead and continue anyway. I totally needed to back away, try to understand, find a new direction." He describes the disillusionment as something that "made me question everything," and he links it to an earlier crisis, the one that had pushed him to leave home at fifteen.

That detail matters for the arc of the whole series. The restlessness that drives a young person out of a seminary is not presented as a philosophical position he had settled on. It is closer to a wound, and the search for an antidote to it shapes every choice that follows. He says he was "desperate," that "everywhere I had looked I'd come up dry," and that the psychedelics "offered something immediately, tangibly promising of the direction that I wanted to go."

Why did psychedelics feel like a door into something larger?

The mid-1960s were a moment when the experiences were being spoken about with extraordinary confidence. Culadasa recalls that figures such as Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, who later became Ram Dass, were "highly respected and saying incredible things about the potential of this." Young people took that seriously. He describes the moment of discovery in a way that still carries the force of revelation: the drugs seemed to be "this wonderful way into a whole new universe of understanding."

What he takes from those experiences is more subtle than the usual celebration. In his telling, psychedelics "illustrated so completely, in a profound experiential way, what I had already discovered, which is the illusoriness of the world we lived in." The drugs did not hand him a new idea. They dramatized one he had already reached, which is why the experience felt so convincing. He is careful to say that his enthusiasm was not simply hedonism. He was looking for something, and he says he was not just "having a good time," though he acknowledges that the scene around him was often exactly that.

He also is clear about the source of these substances, a point that complicates the mythology of the era. He recalls gathering peyote and mescaline in West Texas, and he distinguishes between them: mescaline is a primary active ingredient in peyote, but the whole plant is "a mixture of alkaloids" and produces a noticeably different effect than purified mescaline. Looking back, he says the group came to understand that their use of peyote was intruding on Native American church territory, a recognition he describes with regret and does not want to belabor.

What is a trip doctor, and why did Culadasa become one?

One of the most useful passages in the episode explains a role that most readers will not have heard of. When he returned to Houston, large numbers of people, many of them already "tripping on something or other," would gather spontaneously. In that setting he became what he calls a "trip doctor." He explains the phenomenon with a precise analogy: people who had ingested psychoactive substances could have experiences so shocking that they fell into a bad trip, and the bad trip fed on itself. "It was sort of this spontaneously self-reinforcing thing, sort of like somebody who's had panic attacks. If they believe they might be having a panic attack, it'll trigger one. If somebody believes they're having a bad trip, it'll trigger a bad trip."

His method was simple and, by his account, effective. He would talk people into not fighting the experience: "Don't fight it, just accept it, everything's going to be all right." He notes that he was already prepared to deal with the tricks the mind can play, and that this gave him "a natural way" of helping people through experiences that could feel spiritually threatening. The anecdote is revealing because it shows what he was learning about the mind even before he had a name for it. The fear was itself part of the phenomenon. Meeting it with acceptance changed the outcome.

Could the mystics have reached the same places without drugs?

This is where the episode turns. Culadasa describes a challenge put to him, in effect, by the people he was talking with. If he had been sitting beside his younger self in 1968 or 1969, he says, he would have had to acknowledge that he could not name any examples of Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, or the anonymous author of The Cloud of Unknowing doing what he was doing with mushrooms. He answers the challenge directly: the experiences had not made him conclude that the mystics were fairy tales. In his words, "it was quite the opposite."

The key admission is that he knew almost nothing about Eastern philosophies, religions, or mystical practices at the time. He had no "larger frame of reference." What he eventually came to see was that the psychedelic states resembled what Western and other mystical traditions had long described, and that those traditions had reached such states through disciplined practice rather than chemistry. He says plainly that meditation "came evolved naturally as a next step" from the drug experiences, not as a rejection of them.

That sequence is the spine of the episode. A powerful experience can point toward a truth, but it can also be mistaken for the truth itself. Culadasa does not condemn the psychedelic years. He treats them as a formative apprenticeship in recognizing how perception can be altered, and he positions the later turn to meditation as the step that let those glimpses be examined, repeated, and understood rather than simply consumed.

What does the rest of the story add?

The episode moves through the next stage of his life in shorter, more associative passages, touching on his reading of Patanjali's yoga sutras and the translations he worked with, and on his growing interest in music. The talk shifts to the sitar and to the many instruments he has played, a thread that will surprise viewers who know him mainly as a meditation teacher. The channel's description adds the context that later defined him: years of teaching physiology and neuroscience at the universities of Calgary and British Columbia, work as founding director of the West Coast College of Massage Therapy, retirement from academia in 1996, and a move to a remote part of Arizona to deepen his practice. Those details are not presented as a conclusion to the drug years. They are the long road that the disillusioned young man set out on when he drove west.

Where to go from here

If this episode lands for you, the most useful next step is to read it alongside the material it draws on. Culadasa's The Mind Illuminated is the book in which he systematically turns the question of experience into a training method, with step-by-step guidance on concentration and insight. The channel itself hosts the rest of the "My Journey" series, which fills in the years between the seminary and the meditation hall, and the official site, culadasa.com, lists his teaching resources. For a reader new to the subject, the most important takeaway from this episode is one he returns to in different ways: a striking experience is an invitation to look more carefully, not a verdict on what is real. The episode is worth watching in full, and worth watching slowly.

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Transcript

[0:09] to say that i decided to leave

[0:11] university it was more like i was so

[0:16] just so severely disillusioned

[0:20] that i i just couldn't do it anymore

[0:24] you know it's it's not as though i could

[0:26] have decided well i'm going to go ahead

[0:27] and continue

[0:28] anyway i just i totally needed to back

[0:30] away

[0:31] uh you know

[0:35] try to understand find a new direction

[0:38] you know

[0:38] [Music]

[0:40] it's a disillusionment is the right term

[0:42] it was

[0:43] it made me question everything

[0:47] um

[0:50] basically threw me back to a state that

[0:52] was in many ways reminiscent of

[0:55] uh what precipitated my leading home

[0:58] when i was 15.

[1:00] so i probably could no more have

[1:02] continued with

[1:04] you know even if i'd withdrawn from just

[1:07] from seminary i couldn't

[1:08] couldn't have successfully completed my

[1:10] courses

[1:12] so yeah so what happened

[1:19] a new vista opened up for me

[1:22] um in terms of

[1:26] psychoactive drugs

[1:29] this was 1960

[1:35] 1967 predominantly

[1:39] um i i don't know how familiar people

[1:44] are now

[1:44] with what happened in the 60s but well

[1:47] just before the summer of love

[1:49] isn't it it was it was just before the

[1:51] summer of love

[1:53] as a matter of fact uh that was i was

[1:55] all

[1:56] i was a part of all of that before the

[1:59] end of the second semester i actually

[2:03] packed up

[2:03] and drove to california and

[2:08] went to los angeles well you know taking

[2:11] the interstate

[2:12] you end up in los angeles first and then

[2:14] head north to san francisco

[2:16] eight ashbury uh

[2:19] countless lsd trips along the way

[2:24] even before i left on this odyssey i'd

[2:27] been introduced to

[2:29] a variety of psychedelics

[2:34] i'd gone gathering peyote mushrooms in

[2:37] west texas and began to

[2:39] you know with with other people of

[2:41] similar interests

[2:42] experimenting with that psilocybin

[2:45] muscle uh

[2:46] mushrooms uh well purified

[2:49] mescaline in addition to

[2:52] to the peyote cactus

[2:55] which just as an aside is

[2:58] different even though mescaline is a

[3:02] primary active ingredient

[3:03] in peyote is a mixture of alkaloids it

[3:07] produces a significantly

[3:09] different overall effect in peyote than

[3:12] with just

[3:12] purified muscling i was just

[3:16] i was exploring all these things and i

[3:18] felt like

[3:19] through these psychedelic or

[3:22] psychoactive or antiogenic

[3:24] i mean my favorite term was anthogenic

[3:29] because that was how i experienced these

[3:33] the the effects of these as they were

[3:36] opening

[3:37] the doors of perception to exactly the

[3:40] kind of

[3:42] visitors that i could relate to as

[3:47] having something to do with the mystical

[3:49] pursuits that i had been

[3:52] engaged in

[3:56] and seemed to show some promise

[4:00] of understanding remember at this time

[4:04] um timothy leary

[4:10] richard alpert who became romdos

[4:13] these were uh

[4:16] these people were highly respected

[4:20] and saying incredible things about the

[4:22] potential of this

[4:23] uh we as young people went out and tried

[4:26] these things and we discovered that

[4:28] gee this you know this really does seem

[4:30] to be

[4:31] this wonderful way into

[4:35] a whole new universe of understanding

[4:38] uh in my experience psychedelics did uh

[4:43] just it just illustrated so completely

[4:46] in a profound experiential way what i

[4:49] had

[4:49] already discovered is the the

[4:52] illusoriness

[4:53] of the world we lived in and the

[4:56] perceptions that we had

[4:58] so yeah

[5:02] so i i i this

[5:05] was i was ready

[5:08] for something new i was desperate

[5:11] everywhere i had looked

[5:13] i'd come up dry and now here was

[5:17] something

[5:18] that offered something immediately

[5:21] tangibly promising of the direction that

[5:25] i wanted to go

[5:27] and so yeah i immersed myself completely

[5:30] in it

[5:32] i did go to san francisco i you know i

[5:34] participated in the whole thing

[5:37] uh lovins in the park even when i went

[5:40] back to

[5:41] houston large numbers of people would

[5:43] spontaneously gather

[5:45] and and half of them would be tripping

[5:48] on something or other

[5:49] and in those environments i came to be a

[5:52] trip doctor

[5:55] i don't know if you're familiar with

[5:56] that term i i think that you better

[5:58] explain that for the benefit i i'm

[6:00] sort of familiar but i think it'd be

[6:02] good to talk a little bit about that

[6:04] people had ingested psychoactive

[6:06] substances would

[6:08] not infrequently uh have experiences

[6:12] that

[6:13] that were so shocking to them that uh

[6:16] they would be they would have a bad trip

[6:20] and it was sort of this kind of uh

[6:23] spontaneously self-reinforcing thing

[6:25] sort of like

[6:27] somebody who's had panic attacks if they

[6:29] believe they might be having a panic

[6:31] attack it'll trigger one

[6:32] right if somebody believes they're

[6:34] having a bad trip it'll trigger a bad

[6:36] trip

[6:38] and i was especially good at

[6:41] just talking people into hey you know

[6:44] don't fight it

[6:45] just accept it everything's going to be

[6:47] all right

[6:49] so you sort of had a natural way with

[6:51] helping people

[6:53] uh through these really difficult

[6:55] experiences which can seem sort of quite

[6:58] spiritually threatening right as i

[7:00] understand it well my

[7:02] my i had to add some real-life

[7:05] counterparts

[7:06] to bad trips so

[7:10] and i i was sort of already

[7:14] prepared in advance to deal with the

[7:17] tricks

[7:18] mine can play interesting

[7:21] and um so this this seemed

[7:24] to offer you a lot um however

[7:27] and i'm going to be a little bit

[7:30] challenging here

[7:32] and that is to say to you um

[7:35] but if i were next to you back in 1968

[7:38] or

[7:38] 69 i'd be saying to you okay this is all

[7:41] good and

[7:41] you're having all these experiences but

[7:44] i don't

[7:45] you know know of any examples

[7:48] such as teresa of avila or john of the

[7:50] cross or any of these people that were

[7:52] doing this by

[7:53] taking mushrooms so uh had you at that

[7:57] point

[7:58] just given up on the idea that that were

[8:01] those now fairy tales to you and this

[8:03] was the only

[8:04] way uh you felt that science had the

[8:07] only answer here

[8:08] science and chemicals no no

[8:11] no no not no

[8:15] quite the opposite

[8:19] now to put this in a proper context at

[8:22] this point i knew

[8:23] absolutely nothing about eastern

[8:26] philosophies

[8:27] religions mystical practices anything

[8:29] else

[8:31] meditation that's something that came

[8:33] evolved naturally as a next step from

[8:35] this

[8:39] to me to all of us this was some

[8:42] wonderful new

[8:43] discovery and then what was also coming

[8:47] to light at the same time

[8:49] i i you know from

[8:52] today's perspective it might be

[8:55] challenging to put oneself

[8:57] in the mind frame of 1960s

[9:02] most of us only learned as a part of

[9:05] that experience

[9:06] that the use of psychoactive substance

[9:09] is is something

[9:10] that had a tremendous history going back

[9:13] a very long ways

[9:15] um when i was using peyote it was sort

[9:18] of like

[9:19] wow here's something that is similar in

[9:22] many ways to

[9:23] uh lsd and it can produce

[9:26] similar things but here it's not made in

[9:29] a laboratory it's not something that was

[9:30] discovered by accident a decade or so

[9:33] ago

[9:35] in a laboratory this is something that's

[9:37] in a plant and all you have to do is

[9:38] go and find a plant and prepare it

[9:40] appropriately

[9:42] uh it it came later the recognition

[9:46] well what we discovered is we were

[9:47] encroaching on native american

[9:49] church territories and basically

[9:52] stealing

[9:52] everything um

[9:57] anyway that's i don't want to get off

[9:59] topic there

[10:01] but no this look

[10:05] this appeared to be a novel way of

[10:10] reaching the kinds of things that john

[10:14] of the cross and

[10:15] avila and the unknown author of the

[10:17] cloud of unknowing and people like that

[10:18] were talking about

[10:20] and none of us really had the larger

[10:23] frame of reference to know

[10:24] that all these things similar things

[10:26] that have been explored

[10:28] in other cultures in other parts of the

[10:30] world for a long time

[10:32] like i say that grew out of this from

[10:34] our fascination with

[10:36] psychoactive substances per se and the

[10:39] experiences that they gave rise to

[10:41] now whereas many of the people i was

[10:43] with it was just oh wow this is

[10:45] this is news great makes me feel good i

[10:48] feel like i understand myself and things

[10:50] so much better

[10:52] but you were still had a purpose here

[10:54] you were still looking for

[10:55] for this this was not just about having

[10:57] a good time and

[10:59] you know having orgies in the park

[11:03] exactly it's like yeah this is what was

[11:06] the predominant thing

[11:07] but not entirely there are a lot of

[11:08] people like myself too

[11:10] actually my first encounter with

[11:13] psychedelics

[11:14] was it was when i was

[11:17] working at university of texas medical

[11:20] branch before i got into university

[11:23] and somehow or another i came in contact

[11:26] there was uh somebody professor from uh

[11:29] university of tennessee uh

[11:32] and he had been very

[11:36] he had been following very closely uh

[11:39] the work of of tim leary and

[11:42] other people at harvard

[11:45] he was a professor of psychology

[11:48] which is why he was aware of all that

[11:51] and volume

[11:52] and one of the things that he was he

[11:54] told us about this

[11:57] and he proposed that we go and we

[12:00] scour all of the local stores

[12:03] for sun for morning glory seeds heavenly

[12:06] blue

[12:07] and pearly gates now these have an

[12:10] analog

[12:10] of lsd and a relatively high

[12:12] concentration in these seeds

[12:14] and so we bought as much of these seeds

[12:17] as we could

[12:19] uh ground them up in a coffee grinder

[12:22] prepared them

[12:22] in ways and we did a couple of

[12:26] uh trips

[12:29] so to speak using the morning glory

[12:32] seeds and that

[12:33] so this would have been several years

[12:35] earlier but i did have this previous

[12:38] experience

[12:39] and it had touched something in me but

[12:45] ingesting ground morning glory seeds is

[12:48] an ordeal in itself

[12:51] a reaction to it is severe

[12:54] gastrointestinal reaction it's

[12:57] painful cramps involving vomiting

[13:01] and it's only after you've gone through

[13:02] that part of the ordeal

[13:04] that you begin to have the experience of

[13:07] the psychoactive substance

[13:11] and for whatever reason i didn't

[13:15] do further research on morning glory

[13:17] seeds ever

[13:19] but the experiences that i had touched

[13:22] on something but were nothing nearly as

[13:24] powerful as what i later experienced

[13:26] with lsd and things like that

[13:28] so i did have some previous experience

[13:31] with that previous acquaintance which

[13:33] had kind of been stored away in the back

[13:35] of my mind that came to the surface when

[13:37] i

[13:38] when i when this whole new

[13:39] counterculture of

[13:41] psycho psychedelic drugs and the whole

[13:43] psychedelic revolution

[13:45] took place so

[13:49] this fit in in a way that i'd

[13:52] already touched upon so it was uh you

[13:55] know i

[13:56] had a previous inkling and now all of a

[13:57] sudden this seemed like it might be the

[14:00] answer

[14:01] that i wasn't finding in my previous

[14:04] pursuits

[14:09] well the outcome of this you know i had

[14:12] i remember i started out counting

[14:16] my lsd experiences and

[14:21] somewhere somewhere in california on the

[14:24] beach

[14:25] i hit 33 and then i

[14:29] for one reason another i never knew

[14:32] how many times altogether in that period

[14:36] uh but i never bothered to count the

[14:39] the times i'd use other things the only

[14:42] reason i mentioned

[14:43] that i actually counted 33 lsd trips is

[14:46] when i say i got into this in a big way

[14:48] i got into this in a big way

[14:50] right including discovering things like

[14:54] you couldn't use it to you couldn't use

[14:57] it twice too close

[14:59] temporal proximity or uh you know

[15:02] it wasn't going to work as well and uh

[15:05] sometimes the consequences could be

[15:08] very problematic

[15:13] what i learned from this it's a deep

[15:16] exploration

[15:17] i went as seriously i wasn't dabbling i

[15:19] wanted to plumb the depths

[15:21] and the conclusion i came to was one

[15:24] that

[15:25] quite a few of us in those days came to

[15:27] those of us who saw this as part of a

[15:29] spiritual journey

[15:31] was to realize its limitations it was

[15:34] unpredictable there was no framework to

[15:37] interpret

[15:38] these experiences um

[15:41] it's like you're just grasping at things

[15:43] that were

[15:44] just beyond the limits of the ability to

[15:47] make sense of

[15:50] it was like it's opening doorways to

[15:52] mysteries

[15:53] but with no way to step across the

[15:56] threshold

[15:57] and truly enter into the other side

[16:02] well other than very temporarily and

[16:05] then it was gone

[16:07] and actually that made a really strong

[16:09] that that one lesson

[16:11] is something that's carried over

[16:13] throughout all my meditation practices

[16:15] spiritual practices in general

[16:17] is experiences that come and go that's

[16:20] right

[16:20] frankly i say experience doesn't mean

[16:23] it's whether or not those

[16:26] experiences produce

[16:28] a real permanent transformation that's

[16:30] the only thing that counts

[16:32] and that was the problem with

[16:34] psychedelics

[16:36] they didn't provide a clear path to

[16:39] complete lasting transformation

[16:42] merely glimpses isolated experiences

[16:46] it's true you could use something like

[16:49] this particularly the plant medicines

[16:51] and go on an extended journey of several

[16:54] days

[16:54] but still whether it was six hours or

[16:57] whether it was four days

[16:59] it was just it was just a slight

[17:03] excursion right

[17:04] and and you're left with no permanent

[17:07] knowledge and

[17:08] and transformation um well

[17:11] some bits and pieces of permanent

[17:13] knowledge but no framework

[17:14] but it almost sounds like you're

[17:16] describing a dream that you wake up

[17:18] from and then you cut you struggle you

[17:20] remember little bits of it here and

[17:21] there but you can't

[17:22] remember the whole experience and it

[17:26] and it's touched you but in a way that

[17:28] you can't you you can't really

[17:30] quantify or capture again well the main

[17:32] thing is

[17:33] it's in a way that you can build on you

[17:36] don't have a way to go forward with it

[17:39] just like you'll have another dream some

[17:41] of the night

[17:42] you might take a psychoactive substance

[17:45] on another occasion

[17:46] but that dream on another night and that

[17:50] experience on another occasion

[17:53] it's its own thing it's not there's no

[17:55] continuity between

[17:56] it and what's gone before well that's

[17:59] probably not true but there's no

[18:01] easily discernible continuity that you

[18:03] can build on

[18:06] so um i do want to

[18:09] uh you know for the benefit this is

[18:10] going to be on youtube and

[18:13] i i think it's important to give a

[18:15] disclaimer here we are not suggesting

[18:17] that people

[18:18] um go out and use illicit substances

[18:22] or that this is a is a i mean i think

[18:25] you're already saying it but this is not

[18:26] neces this is not um

[18:28] in the context of what you're describing

[18:30] we're not talking about in

[18:32] native american traditions or whatever

[18:34] but this is not

[18:35] a uh a path that you

[18:39] think actually leads anywhere as far as

[18:43] true spiritual growth and awakening

[18:47] in the long term yes i tried it

[18:51] i tried it as thoroughly as i think

[18:54] anybody ever has and

[18:56] and after i satisfied myself that it was

[19:00] not the answer

[19:02] and that's the important thing to get

[19:03] across i learned from it

[19:06] but one of the most important things i

[19:08] learned well two things

[19:10] one is that somehow there is a way

[19:13] this was this was you know

[19:16] it's real it's it's touching something

[19:18] real

[19:20] but uh that's all it was is a glimpse is

[19:24] it

[19:24] that's all i could ever provide uh i

[19:27] mean you could learn and grow to a

[19:29] certain degree but

[19:30] you know a lifetime of playing with

[19:32] psychedelics

[19:33] later i saw what it did to timothy leary

[19:35] i saw what it did

[19:36] terence mckenna saw what it did to these

[19:39] other people who

[19:40] continued on with it yeah you know i

[19:43] chose not to

[19:44] yeah i realized the limitations of it

[19:47] and is am i right in thinking that what

[19:50] you're saying is i tried

[19:52] you know i i went all the way so that

[19:54] you don't have to

[19:56] um you know there are more fruitful ways

[19:58] for you to explore

[20:00] that's right let me just add something

[20:03] to this i'll jump ahead

[20:05] several decades where i went back to

[20:08] this

[20:09] but i went back to in the in the

[20:12] context of shamanism which i also

[20:15] trained in

[20:16] and with the traditional uses of these

[20:19] plant medicines

[20:20] in context peyote

[20:23] and the uh the

[20:27] mushroom viladas and

[20:30] the san pedro mesa ceremonies

[20:34] and all of these sorts of things

[20:37] ayahuasca ceremonies were trained iowa

[20:40] scheroz

[20:42] all these things are enormously powerful

[20:47] those many years later i discovered how

[20:50] over hundreds and thousands of years

[20:53] people had learned

[20:54] to use these psychoactive substances

[20:58] in a way that truly was a path of

[21:02] spiritual development

[21:04] so i went back and re-explored that

[21:06] years later

[21:07] in that context but at that time

[21:12] in the naive use that we had at that

[21:15] time and knowledge

[21:17] i what i recognized most clearly was

[21:20] what it pointed towards and the fact

[21:23] that it couldn't deliver it

[21:25] in itself right so

[21:28] i was not the only one there were quite

[21:30] a few of us

[21:32] yeah and most of us were pretty much

[21:35] ignorant of anything eastern other than

[21:38] chop suey

[21:40] which actually is not even chinese

[21:47] so i mean i know this is a slightly

[21:50] delicate question but i think it bears

[21:51] asking

[21:52] um because meditation is such a such a

[21:56] long uh you know if you're following uh

[21:59] summit uh and that sort of it's a long

[22:03] training that requires a lot of

[22:04] dedication and

[22:06] um uh resolve

[22:10] let's say uh usually for most people

[22:13] to to bear fruit

[22:15] [Music]

[22:17] so for a lot of people especially us

[22:19] westerners we're often looking for

[22:21] the easy way the quick way and the

[22:24] simple way particularly to something as

[22:26] alluring as enlightenment

[22:28] um so from from your perspective um

[22:32] would you say that these other

[22:33] traditions the ayahuasca

[22:36] all this sort of thing the native

[22:38] american

[22:39] traditions all of that do they lead to

[22:42] the same

[22:43] kind of of depth of spiritual

[22:45] realization

[22:46] that that you've

[22:49] you say you've experienced with

[22:52] practicing the buddhist path

[22:55] well i believe

[22:58] they do but not very often

[23:01] they take a long long time and they have

[23:03] the potential to

[23:04] reach the same places but it's not a

[23:07] fast and efficient

[23:09] right okay it's less

[23:12] efficient and less rapid

[23:16] i'm speaking now from the perspective

[23:20] uh 50 years later yeah

[23:24] i that uh

[23:28] what i've discovered is that these

[23:30] eastern paths are very rapid and they're

[23:32] very effective

[23:33] it's the form that they've come to us in

[23:38] and i can say the same thing about

[23:40] ayahuasca ceremonies that

[23:42] are being conducted all over the united

[23:45] states now

[23:46] and the native american church is really

[23:50] you know they really clamp down on

[23:52] people

[23:54] you know wanting to get involved and

[23:56] experiment and things like that

[23:59] but for a while there are a lot of

[24:00] people what the effect was

[24:03] is that it's diluted the power of those

[24:06] things

[24:08] same thing is true of all of these

[24:11] eastern mystical traditions they had

[24:14] already

[24:15] lost a lot of their vital essence over

[24:18] centuries and when they were imported

[24:21] into the us

[24:22] they were basically drained of their

[24:24] lice juice and became these very narrow

[24:26] shallow things that yes would seem like

[24:29] they would take an eternity

[24:30] if ever you know 10 000 lifetimes or

[24:33] something a practice to achieve anything

[24:36] this was the wonderful thing about the

[24:39] 1960s and western ignorance

[24:42] because when we discovered these eastern

[24:45] disciplines

[24:46] and their fruits we discovered by virtue

[24:49] of the people

[24:50] that had realized these things

[24:54] we didn't know about the centuries of

[24:58] lay practitioners who superficial

[25:01] practice

[25:03] which all it ever gave them was a hope

[25:06] that they would be reincarnated as a

[25:08] monk

[25:09] we didn't really know of all of the

[25:13] generations and generations of monks and

[25:15] monasteries who had never achieved these

[25:17] glorious fruits that the practice

[25:19] promised

[25:21] we just knew about the ones that had

[25:23] written about it

[25:25] in in my case this was all brand new

[25:28] uh other people of my generation were in

[25:32] a position to be able to

[25:34] go to the east go to thailand burma sri

[25:37] lanka

[25:38] wherever and sample these things up

[25:41] close and

[25:42] they're the ones that imported a lot of

[25:44] this back into the states

[25:49] and then of course after the chinese

[25:51] invasion of tibet

[25:53] and the tibetan diaspora a lot of this

[25:55] uh

[25:56] stuff also began to come into the west

[25:58] but this that was that happened a lot

[26:00] later than that

[26:01] so we didn't know

[26:04] perhaps it might have been daunting more

[26:07] daunting

[26:08] to some of

[26:11] us explore explorers not myself because

[26:14] i've already been on this journey for

[26:17] for quite a few years and you know

[26:20] been up some blind alleys and things

[26:22] like that

[26:25] so i didn't expect anything to happen

[26:27] magically overnight

[26:29] yeah yeah but i didn't have

[26:32] access to i mean it just wasn't the

[26:35] availability like right now there's so

[26:37] much information available

[26:39] not just on the internet but even before

[26:41] the internet so much became available in

[26:43] print

[26:44] the only sources that i could locate

[26:47] were uh the viva command of identicide

[26:50] society in chicago and i purchased

[26:55] just about everything that they had

[26:56] available to read about this

[26:59] now in in regard to these being

[27:03] disciplines that take so very very long

[27:05] to master

[27:07] when viva commander went to the

[27:10] that great spiritual religious fair in

[27:13] chicago in the

[27:14] 1890s he was only 30 years old he was

[27:17] only a few years older than i was

[27:20] and he had realized the fruits and for

[27:22] me that time frame

[27:23] hey that is no problem that's no problem

[27:26] right

[27:27] so just just before we leave

[27:30] the topic of of psychedelics because i

[27:33] mean there has been an enormous

[27:35] uh i i'm not sure it ever really went

[27:37] away but there's

[27:38] much more of a resurgence of interest in

[27:41] western people on on trying to

[27:45] achieve awakening and or you know grand

[27:48] spiritual

[27:48] paths uh with uh psychedelics

[27:52] could you perhaps just take us through

[27:55] and then we'll get back to

[27:56] you know jump back into your life um

[28:00] take us through uh would describe to us

[28:04] you know some of the risks

[28:05] involved and and uh you know what it

[28:08] what it can offer and what it can't i

[28:10] think you've covered that to some degree

[28:12] already

[28:12] um but just you know as someone who's in

[28:15] psychology i do see people

[28:17] experiment with the stuff and and

[28:20] sometimes it does not turn out well

[28:22] um so i think it's worth worthwhile to

[28:24] to tell people

[28:26] you know here be dragons uh proceed with

[28:29] caution

[28:31] well casual experimenters

[28:36] are going to be no better off today than

[28:38] they were in the 60s

[28:40] but what is happening today that that

[28:43] inspires me is that there are serious

[28:46] people

[28:47] researching the potential of using these

[28:50] things

[28:51] and they have rediscovered what larry

[28:54] referred to

[28:55] as set and setting which is really the

[28:57] whole

[28:58] dynamic that is at least as important as

[29:01] a psychoactive substance itself

[29:04] in these various traditional ceremonies

[29:07] using right where you're actually being

[29:10] guided by somebody that's done this

[29:12] a thousand times before and guided

[29:16] a thousand other people through this

[29:18] experience before

[29:20] they have a vast accumulation of

[29:22] personal experience

[29:23] and that is built on top of everything

[29:26] that has been passed along to them by

[29:28] the people that trained them

[29:31] so now we have modern researchers with a

[29:33] different foundation

[29:34] we have we have whole new degrees of

[29:38] understanding whole new disciplines

[29:40] cognitive psychology as such did not

[29:43] exist

[29:44] a few decades ago our understanding of

[29:47] the brain and the nervous system

[29:49] has undergone an explosive growth and

[29:53] exponential growth

[29:55] many different branches of psychology

[29:58] and philosophy for that matter

[30:00] exploring the nature of consciousness

[30:02] how

[30:03] how the mind processes information what

[30:05] the mind is

[30:07] you know there are people bringing that

[30:10] kind of knowledge and understanding

[30:12] to psychedelic substances as something

[30:15] which is going to alter

[30:17] mental processes and what can we learn

[30:19] from this and is there a

[30:21] practical utility in this now this is

[30:24] where these traditional

[30:25] ceremonies have so much to offer these

[30:28] ceremonies always serve the purpose of

[30:31] healing

[30:32] healing so many things physical diseases

[30:35] addictions um just

[30:39] depression psychological disorders of

[30:43] all kinds

[30:44] even what we things we would find

[30:47] defined in dsm you know

[30:52] and so yes let's discover the potential

[30:55] of these as tools

[30:57] and let's add them to to much larger

[31:00] collection of tools

[31:01] that includes things like meditation it

[31:03] includes things like all these modern

[31:05] uh approaches to philosophy

[31:08] and you know

[31:12] therapy and that's why yeah

[31:15] philosophy psychology the

[31:18] mind-body dynamic all the explorations

[31:21] of what it means to be an

[31:22] embodied mind

[31:25] these are valuable tools uh and and not

[31:28] only that they're

[31:29] they're tools that in combination with

[31:31] psychoactive substances

[31:33] you know have a powerfully synergistic

[31:35] effect

[31:38] so i welcome this now

[31:42] we were on that same path in the 60s

[31:44] without sufficient background in

[31:46] preparation

[31:48] and what happened is we had this you

[31:50] know we ended up having

[31:51] on almost every weekend there would be

[31:54] some kind of gathering in parks all over

[31:56] the country

[31:57] hundreds of people taking large doses of

[32:00] psychoactive substances

[32:02] emergency rooms being flooded by you

[32:05] know tens or dozens of people

[32:07] that were having

[32:10] what was understood at the time to be a

[32:12] psychotic break which wasn't really it

[32:14] was just a bad trip

[32:17] that's another thing that happens too by

[32:19] the way in meditation

[32:20] is somebody can have the equivalent of a

[32:23] bad trip and meditation

[32:26] it can be treated as though it's

[32:27] something more than it is

[32:29] which will actually turn it into

[32:30] something more than it is and that's

[32:32] back to the toxic name of the dark

[32:34] knight

[32:35] right and that's as you said earlier

[32:37] sort of if you think you're going to

[32:38] have a bad triple if you interpret

[32:40] something as being a

[32:41] psychotic break you you may become a

[32:44] self-fulfilling prophecy

[32:45] right but but to be to be fair some

[32:48] people do run into some serious

[32:50] trouble with with some of these uh

[32:53] substances

[32:54] taken in the wrong way in the wrong

[32:56] settings and all that sort of thing

[33:00] yes there's not that many people who

[33:01] don't have some serious

[33:03] uh psychological psycho-emotional

[33:06] problems of one sort or another

[33:08] and they can live their whole life and

[33:10] not even realize that

[33:12] but when something comes along that acts

[33:14] as a powerful trigger

[33:15] they can you know the needle can swing

[33:18] all the way to the other side

[33:20] how how likely is it that um

[33:23] someone because it is sort of the vogue

[33:26] now

[33:26] to jump on a plane and go to south

[33:29] america

[33:30] well as you say it's now even being done

[33:32] in

[33:33] in the states but let's talk about

[33:35] proper like

[33:37] and people like that you jump on a plane

[33:40] you go down there you get a legitimate

[33:42] you go through a legitimate ceremony

[33:43] with someone who's highly trained highly

[33:45] experienced

[33:47] how likely is it that someone is going

[33:49] to come back from that

[33:50] and be awakened and what we're talking

[33:53] about in

[33:54] the buddhist sense of of the word you

[33:56] know very highly spiritually realized

[33:58] individual how likely do you think that

[34:00] prospect is

[34:01] uh minimal

[34:05] minuscule but but there are a lot of

[34:07] people that go and do that and they come

[34:09] back

[34:10] and they really uh they don't come back

[34:13] thinking that they haven't they come

[34:14] back thinking that that actually has

[34:16] happened to them

[34:17] and the rest of their lives then is

[34:20] based on that

[34:21] uh belief that they cannot be

[34:24] unconvinced of

[34:27] yeah yeah and then they spend their

[34:28] whole life rationalizing while they're

[34:30] still just

[34:31] why they're still just as troubled and

[34:33] miserable as they were before

[34:34] now that they're they've had these

[34:36] wonderful ios carol

[34:38] experiences and they're supposedly

[34:40] awakened enlightened

[34:42] they've conflated uh a healing process

[34:45] in south america with a

[34:47] spiritual development process from other

[34:50] parts of the cultures in the world

[34:53] and now they're trying to make it come

[34:54] true we'll just well how is that

[34:56] different than people who

[34:58] meditate in such a way and follow such

[35:01] practices that are going to produce

[35:03] oh well experiences and then on the

[35:06] basis of those oh wow experiences

[35:08] they're told that well you're now you

[35:10] know you're now a stream mentor

[35:12] you're now in our hut and they're no

[35:14] more a stream rancher in our hot than

[35:16] anybody else they just had some powerful

[35:19] experiences and the ideas been planted

[35:21] in their mind

[35:22] then they try to live it as a reality

[35:24] and

[35:25] i watch these people and it becomes more

[35:28] and more

[35:29] a tangled process of trying to bend

[35:32] something into being something it's not

[35:35] right

[35:35] i appreciate you speaking about about

[35:37] this but the one thing that i did also

[35:40] take away from

[35:40] from what you've said here is that there

[35:43] is

[35:45] there are states and there are traits as

[35:47] as you've talked about before

[35:48] right so there are amazing states that

[35:51] one can have with

[35:52] whether it's taking psychoactive

[35:54] substances or whether it's with

[35:55] meditation or other spiritual practices

[35:58] but what one is looking for is

[36:00] ultimately

[36:02] a permanent transformation a permanent

[36:04] growth

[36:05] right okay

[36:08] fantastic so after trip number 33 of lsd

[36:12] unless there was something else that you

[36:14] wanted to add about

[36:15] about do you think feel we've covered it

[36:17] or was there something else you wanted

[36:18] to add on the subject

[36:20] well really the main thing is that

[36:26] i i've recovered my

[36:32] hope the validity of my my

[36:35] my aspiration was made valid once again

[36:38] uh but i realized that and i'll always

[36:42] be thankful for that experience for

[36:43] providing

[36:44] that uh and for the fact that

[36:47] i was not in this alone and there are

[36:49] other people and it opened up this whole

[36:51] you know whole new world there are all

[36:53] kinds of eastern mystical traditions

[36:55] where

[36:56] the kind of thing that i didn't know

[36:58] existed had been around for thousands of

[37:00] years

[37:01] and had many different forms and

[37:03] variations available to it

[37:06] and so that was the next direction

[37:09] that my personal spiritual quest

[37:12] took was now to look at those those

[37:15] eastern

[37:16] philosophies and those eastern practices

[37:20] and in the very first baby steps in that

[37:24] direction it was like i say it was hard

[37:25] to find anything

[37:27] so i started out trying to teach myself

[37:30] uh using uh the writings of viva cananda

[37:34] i just asked how did you become aware of

[37:37] of the fact

[37:37] that that they were you know because up

[37:40] until this stage it sounds like you were

[37:42] only really aware of first of all that

[37:45] the the

[37:45] christian spiritual mystics and then

[37:48] perhaps the

[37:49] native american uh the medicine based

[37:53] mysticism and how did you then

[37:55] transition from that

[37:57] into finding viva cananda and and those

[38:00] sorts of things

[38:01] well like i say it was being part of the

[38:03] community

[38:04] and that community included you know not

[38:07] just people that were

[38:09] playing around with something exciting

[38:11] and different

[38:12] but people who were intelligent and much

[38:15] more

[38:17] thoughtful and serious about this uh who

[38:20] recognized the same potential that i did

[38:22] maybe coming from different backgrounds

[38:24] for different reasons in a different way

[38:26] but i had a commonality with them and of

[38:28] course these are the people that i talk

[38:29] to

[38:30] you know i meet somebody that had been

[38:33] doing this um doing these different

[38:35] substances and

[38:37] we'd compare notes have you tried this

[38:38] have you tried that how did you find

[38:40] that

[38:40] um and you know what have you learned

[38:43] from this and all those sorts of things

[38:45] well that ongoing conversation over a

[38:48] period

[38:49] only a few months i guess this entire

[38:53] process

[38:54] of discovery from

[38:58] you know the first time i ate those

[38:59] morning glory seeds

[39:01] that would have been 1963 and then we

[39:05] were talking about 1967.

[39:09] oh so much had happened in those three

[39:13] years and so much had been learned

[39:16] well when we reached this huge

[39:18] culmination

[39:19] which was really 1967 68 in terms of

[39:23] uh well at least what i could tell from

[39:25] my perspective that

[39:26] you know we reached this peak of a huge

[39:28] number of people and a lot of them

[39:30] you know university students intelligent

[39:32] people thoughtful people

[39:34] people had much more serious aspirations

[39:37] beyond just having a good time

[39:40] we were talking about this and they

[39:42] acquainted me

[39:44] people who had resources that i didn't

[39:47] or

[39:47] even knew things that existed and and so

[39:50] therefore were willing to look for them

[39:51] i didn't know they existed so i never

[39:53] looked for them right

[39:55] you know and they told me about it and i

[39:57] got excited

[39:58] i mean i remember being

[40:02] told very enthusiastically excitedly by

[40:05] a couple of people

[40:06] you know oh you've never heard of this

[40:08] you've never heard of that well let me

[40:09] tell you about

[40:10] this and it's like oh my god this was

[40:13] even more eye-opening

[40:15] than taking lsd

[40:22] and so that was the direction that my

[40:24] interest took

[40:27] now this was another major

[40:30] crisis point in my life i basically

[40:34] allowed my hard-won spot in the

[40:38] in society as a university student

[40:42] uh some of the future in my life have

[40:44] fallen away

[40:46] remember i really had no resources other

[40:48] than my training

[40:50] and being able to be a highly valued and

[40:54] difficult to come by commodity in terms

[40:56] of my skills with electron microscopes

[40:59] and preparing specimens and everything

[41:02] like that

[41:05] so that was really the only thing i had

[41:08] and of course my background and other

[41:11] things i just i'm not going to go into

[41:13] this in depth but

[41:15] uh in the process of this

[41:22] all of these psychoactive subjects where

[41:24] substances were illicit

[41:26] and and so to become immersed in it

[41:30] the way i did was to put oneself in

[41:32] contact with the whole world of illicit

[41:34] drug trafficking

[41:36] i had these backgrounds

[41:39] i got i let myself get drawn into that

[41:43] i made possible the things that i did by

[41:47] being a distributor of marijuana

[41:52] and i ended up

[41:56] trying to stay away from but inevitably

[41:59] being

[42:01] being in contact the same people that

[42:03] were dealing marijuana were dealing

[42:04] heroin and all kinds of other things

[42:06] right and

[42:10] one of the worst things that happened to

[42:11] me was

[42:14] i had taken possession of a large

[42:16] quantity of marijuana to distribute

[42:18] and it had been stolen from me and the

[42:22] person i got it from was uh you know he

[42:24] was

[42:24] mafiosi yeah and

[42:26] [Music]

[42:29] i'm not a good position to be in a

[42:32] classic

[42:33] very very difficult position

[42:36] i won't go into the details but

[42:40] i ended up being arrested

[42:44] charged uh it was kind of a setup

[42:48] um fortunately

[42:51] for me a another series of miraculous

[42:54] events occurred

[42:56] i mean i could go into this in detail

[42:59] and

[42:59] it's another it's an incredible story

[43:02] it really is that's sound worth it truly

[43:06] i mean uh unless you feel that it really

[43:09] is not going to add anything

[43:10] to the detail

[43:13] where it's time to get on with my life

[43:15] again i've discovered a new direction

[43:18] i'm not gonna find the answers today or

[43:19] tomorrow um you know what am i gonna do

[43:22] all of a sudden damn i'm in trouble uh

[43:26] several things happen bam bam bam i find

[43:29] myself

[43:30] arrested and charged with uh

[43:33] possession of various uh drugs

[43:36] uh as i say they were it was a complex

[43:41] situation um

[43:45] there was within the mafia families at

[43:48] that time

[43:49] a huge contentious issue was drugs

[43:53] some some dawns were

[43:56] totally against anything to do with

[43:58] drugs others said this is the thing of

[44:00] the future

[44:01] uh a friend of mine another young man

[44:06] who he was very mafia

[44:11] he had dabbled in drugs and

[44:15] his family his father had

[44:18] pulled his pulled him out of that warned

[44:22] him to never do

[44:23] that again because because our family

[44:26] does not

[44:27] do drugs we do not sell drugs he started

[44:30] doing it again

[44:32] and i was a person that was distributing

[44:35] his drugs i was a person who

[44:37] you know had lost a large consignment

[44:44] so he was in a great deal of difficulty

[44:47] because if his father

[44:51] and his and the family that he was a

[44:53] part of

[44:54] discovered that he'd gotten involved in

[44:56] drugs again

[44:57] uh the consequences to him and to the

[45:01] family

[45:01] would be very great something an

[45:03] individual does

[45:05] in in that society overflows to everyone

[45:08] else

[45:09] the and there's only one way to prevent

[45:11] that overflow which

[45:13] i would imagine you recognize what it is

[45:16] the person who deviates they're either

[45:19] eliminated or else everyone shares

[45:23] the yeah

[45:27] so he was in a huge crisis i was in a

[45:30] mess

[45:30] i was in jail and

[45:36] well let me just tell you the story i

[45:38] was in jail

[45:40] they took me into the uh

[45:43] the county jail

[45:46] and the first thing that happened there

[45:50] it's a huge block all these

[45:56] six-man cells

[45:59] around the perimeter and an open area in

[46:02] the middle

[46:04] and uh

[46:07] there was one and and the inmates

[46:10] one particular group of inmates

[46:13] that they had also adapted for

[46:15] themselves to name the family

[46:18] and these were people you know the

[46:20] family would always change

[46:22] because people would be arrested they

[46:24] spend

[46:25] weeks or months days weeks or months

[46:27] whatever in the county facility

[46:30] they go to trial they eventually go to

[46:33] prisons

[46:34] things like that but there was always

[46:36] this nucleus that ran

[46:38] around the county jail facilities from

[46:40] the inside

[46:42] and that was who you know anybody new

[46:45] comes in

[46:46] you get interviewed by the family they

[46:48] decide

[46:49] so they they want to know what i was

[46:51] charged with they

[46:52] they assigned me the you know i was i

[46:54] was in the junk

[46:55] junkie tank so i was with

[46:58] seven other guys in a place with

[47:01] uh designed for six bunks but also had

[47:05] two extra mattresses on the floor

[47:07] because they didn't have enough space

[47:09] and most of these other men in the cell

[47:12] were in severe withdrawals from

[47:17] heroin and things like that

[47:22] i managed to get on the outs with the

[47:25] family

[47:26] during my stay there i was put in a

[47:30] very very difficult position

[47:33] [Music]

[47:36] i don't know if i should even disclose

[47:37] it i will okay

[47:41] there was somebody who came in

[47:44] who had been he he had

[47:47] down syndrome he was he was

[47:51] pretty severely mentally impaired he had

[47:54] been charged with

[47:55] molesting a minor

[47:58] relative of his and

[48:02] based on those charges

[48:07] and based on their antagonism towards me

[48:12] uh before they

[48:16] locked the doors to the

[48:19] group cells that night i was informed

[48:23] that i was to execute this child

[48:26] molester

[48:27] and if i didn't then i would be executed

[48:29] the next day

[48:32] well there was no way that i could do

[48:34] that

[48:36] i was awake all night i didn't know what

[48:38] to do there was nothing i could do

[48:40] i couldn't do what they asked and i

[48:42] couldn't not do it

[48:44] uh so i didn't know what and then

[48:48] they did something that is they call it

[48:50] pull chain

[48:51] and when they pull chain it means they

[48:53] call in call out those

[48:55] selected uh inmates who are going to be

[48:59] transferred to a different facility

[49:01] and usually they pulled chain after

[49:03] breakfast in the morning

[49:04] but it was before 6 a.m this

[49:08] only time in my experience and to my

[49:12] knowledge it was very

[49:12] unusual to pull chain before

[49:16] the doors were opened in the morning

[49:20] or i could say it was usually after

[49:21] breakfast but they came in and pulled

[49:24] chain and they called out my name

[49:27] i was extracted oh my word

[49:32] like like the noose was already around

[49:35] my neck

[49:36] and wow it was led away from the gallows

[49:40] and so i was transferred to a county

[49:46] work farm

[49:48] a very different environment

[49:51] and that's where i was approaching time

[49:54] for my

[49:55] trial but during this period

[50:01] the person that i had been involved with

[50:04] pulled a bunch of strings and

[50:08] um well what happened is

[50:11] as there was a meeting with the lawyer

[50:14] that

[50:15] uh with with the lawyer that had been

[50:18] assigned to me

[50:20] and uh a couple of

[50:23] of uh lawyers from you know the

[50:27] the family of the person i dealt with

[50:30] and

[50:33] the deal that they had made was that uh

[50:37] they would get all the charges against

[50:39] me dropped

[50:40] but i had to leave texas and never ever

[50:42] return

[50:45] on on penalty of uh yeah

[50:49] wow so anyway i ended up

[50:58] a year later i was invited to

[51:02] go to canada as part of a team that had

[51:04] been assembled to put together a new

[51:07] cardiac research facility in winnipeg

[51:10] manitoba

[51:11] and i was in charge of setting up

[51:13] electron microscope lab there

[51:15] i was actually employed at medical

[51:18] school in st

[51:19] louis and became

[51:23] uh liked and favored by

[51:27] uh a number of people there and one of

[51:29] those people was somebody was just

[51:30] finishing his post-doc

[51:32] had a glorious career ahead of him he

[51:35] was

[51:35] very promising he had received what in

[51:38] those days was a huge grant

[51:41] to come to canada and set up this

[51:43] cardiac research

[51:45] laboratory including an electron

[51:47] microscope facility which in those days

[51:49] was pretty rare

[51:50] yeah and he tapped me to come as a part

[51:54] of his

[51:54] team on a two-year contract to

[51:58] set up that electron microscope facility

[52:03] and well i didn't stay two years i

[52:07] stayed 28.

[52:10] in that time i went from being a member

[52:13] of the team

[52:14] a lab technician basically was my

[52:18] title to

[52:22] you know i completed my undergraduate

[52:24] degrees

[52:25] uh a degree in winnipeg university of

[52:28] winnipeg

[52:29] then i became a graduate student well

[52:31] actually

[52:32] yes yeah i became a graduate student at

[52:35] the

[52:35] university of manitoba medical school

[52:39] which involved some string pulling once

[52:41] again

[52:45] um

[52:46] but as a matter of fact they offered me

[52:48] a place in medical

[52:49] in incoming medical class first and i

[52:51] said i don't want to be a doctor

[52:53] you know um so instead i

[52:57] became a graduate student and a master's

[52:58] degree phd and

[53:01] everything after that

[53:03] [Music]

[53:05] so i got my life back together but i

[53:07] also had this new direction

[53:09] that i was working with in parallel

[53:14] [Music]

[53:17] coming out of the psychedelic experience

[53:20] having newly tapped into and begun

[53:23] trying to practice

[53:24] meditation and learning more about

[53:26] eastern disciplines

[53:28] well it was not too long after i arrived

[53:32] in at the university of manitoba medical

[53:34] school

[53:35] sorry uh i'm so sorry to interrupt you

[53:38] but

[53:39] you did you did start off at one point

[53:41] and then i

[53:42] interrupted you where you had spoken

[53:44] about you had started looking at

[53:46] viva kananda um so

[53:49] can we perhaps just talk a little bit

[53:51] how you how you're progressing

[53:53] into that um and and what you

[53:56] learned and and the limitations because

[53:59] i know you've talked a little bit about

[54:00] this before

[54:02] well i loved everything

[54:06] that i was learning that i was reading

[54:08] in these different books

[54:10] the in terms of practice what i focused

[54:13] on was

[54:14] uh viva cananda's translation

[54:18] of patanjali's yoga sutas

[54:21] yoga pictures sorry slipping into the

[54:23] polygon

[54:26] the yoga sutras patanjali

[54:29] and even today there's hundreds of

[54:32] translations of that but patanjali's i

[54:34] think is still

[54:37] well it may have been because it was my

[54:38] first experience and i just

[54:40] just worked and reworked every word and

[54:44] phrase and sentence in there trying to

[54:45] understand what it was

[54:47] and using it as a guide to meditate

[54:50] and anybody who's familiar with the yoga

[54:54] sutras will realize what

[54:56] uh basically what a futile endeavor that

[54:59] is to self-teach

[55:00] using that as your manual but i

[55:04] nevertheless

[55:06] because i tried so hard i mean i

[55:08] approached this exactly the same way as

[55:10] i became a seminarian and i got up every

[55:12] morning and time to do the stations of

[55:14] the cross

[55:15] so i started sitting at

[55:18] and trying to understand what it is that

[55:22] uh the words of viva canada translated

[55:24] what it is that they were

[55:25] pointing towards and i learned a lot

[55:28] in a kind of trial and error away and i

[55:31] can't say that i ever really succeeded

[55:33] in meditating and the intention in in

[55:36] the way it was intended and the way it

[55:37] was being talked about

[55:39] but it was still a vast treasure

[55:42] of experiential learning to just to try

[55:46] was this at the same time as as uh was

[55:49] this

[55:50] before you came to canada that you had

[55:51] started this yes i

[55:53] i started in houston i continued it in

[55:55] st louis and i continued it

[55:57] in winnipeg this is what i was about to

[56:00] get to

[56:00] was a few months after i arrived in uh

[56:04] in winnipeg one of the the wife

[56:07] of one of the faculty members had become

[56:10] very involved in the

[56:12] transcendental meditation movement

[56:15] which i hadn't even heard of until then

[56:18] and but you know i had been talking to

[56:21] people

[56:23] who were interested in the things that i

[56:25] was doing

[56:26] and so she heard about that and she said

[56:29] she came to me and said would you be

[56:31] interested in and yes i would

[56:34] and so then i had for the first time in

[56:36] my life

[56:37] some real instruction in

[56:41] a form of meditation and this was an

[56:43] incredible experience for me

[56:46] and i was i was so

[56:50] taken by it that i wanted to

[56:54] i i wanted to get into it very deeply

[56:56] how do you get into it more deeply well

[56:58] in i don't know how it is today it's

[57:00] probably similar but

[57:02] at that time well you go through the

[57:04] initiation

[57:05] you practice you go back where you

[57:07] ability you learn more

[57:10] the you know there's a progression you

[57:12] can follow

[57:14] one of the first things that you do is

[57:15] you become a meditation checker

[57:18] so for somebody that comes into it when

[57:20] you're learning to meditate

[57:21] after your initiation you go back in the

[57:24] meditation checker you meditate with

[57:25] them and then they talk to you about it

[57:28] so i became a meditation checker and

[57:30] then i wanted to become a meditation

[57:32] teacher so i started on that path

[57:35] before i got very far on that though

[57:39] i encountered uh my first buddhist

[57:41] teacher

[57:42] uh uh kananda

[57:46] and well i'll tell you how this came

[57:50] about

[57:52] my wife was cooking in one of the first

[57:55] natural foods restaurants in north

[57:58] america

[57:59] certainly one of the first in the

[58:00] canadian prairies

[58:03] and

[58:06] one night someone came in

[58:11] uh who played uh subahr

[58:14] which is like a large version of a sitar

[58:18] and when he he performed

[58:21] some beautiful music and with an

[58:24] instrument that i had never seen before

[58:26] i'd always loved music and i'd learned

[58:28] to play a number of musical instruments

[58:30] in my life already

[58:33] my interest in musical and musical

[58:35] instruments had

[58:36] caused me about six months earlier

[58:39] to purchase a smashed

[58:42] sitar from a fellow graduate student

[58:49] um uh this this graduate student was

[58:54] east indian he went back to india to

[58:57] mary and one of his wife's

[59:01] wedding presents was a beautiful sitar i

[59:03] had that sitar today

[59:06] the gourd the main gourd on it got

[59:08] smashed

[59:09] on the airplane and

[59:13] he sold it to me for 25

[59:17] i had no idea what i was going to do

[59:19] with it i it was just a fascinating

[59:21] instrument

[59:22] and i fantasied that someday i would

[59:25] put it together and learn to play it

[59:27] [Music]

[59:28] typically unrealistic typical me uh and

[59:32] so it sat

[59:34] all the pieces in a bag for months then

[59:36] i saw this

[59:37] man playing a larger version of the same

[59:39] instrument

[59:40] on stage in front of me even more than

[59:43] that

[59:43] was fascinating is that

[59:47] when he took a break there were a number

[59:49] of people in the restaurant

[59:51] who got up and went with him and

[59:54] he went outside and what were they doing

[59:56] so i kind of

[59:57] got up and went outside mean i was just

[1:00:00] hanging out in the restaurant because my

[1:00:02] life was cooking in there at the time

[1:00:04] my wife at the time was cooking there so

[1:00:07] i kind of followed them out and what

[1:00:09] they were doing is they were

[1:00:11] chanting together and they all had these

[1:00:13] strings of beads that

[1:00:14] as they chanted together that they were

[1:00:16] passing through their fingers

[1:00:19] and i was like wow what is this all

[1:00:21] about you know

[1:00:22] i was fascinated anyway before he left

[1:00:26] that night i approached camera

[1:00:29] and i said by the way i have this sitar

[1:00:31] that's broken do you think you could

[1:00:32] help me

[1:00:34] repair it and so he gave me an address

[1:00:37] he said come and see me

[1:00:39] uh you know it's funny the things you

[1:00:42] remember

[1:00:42] after all come and see me uh thursday

[1:00:45] afternoon at this address

[1:00:48] and bring your sitar with you

[1:00:52] over the ensuing weeks and this was

[1:00:56] once a week and then it became twice a

[1:00:58] week we gradually reassembled

[1:01:01] gluing together these pieces using a

[1:01:05] tuning fork

[1:01:06] to tell whether the joint was

[1:01:09] was good or not and if it wasn't good

[1:01:11] then we'd have to rework it

[1:01:13] he had kind of had very

[1:01:16] high standards of workmanship

[1:01:19] that he held himself to which i

[1:01:22] benefited greatly from this

[1:01:25] so we would sit and we would work on

[1:01:28] piecing together like a jigsaw puzzle

[1:01:30] and gluing in place all of these

[1:01:32] fractured pieces of the main board on

[1:01:35] the sitar

[1:01:37] eventually redoing uh all of the

[1:01:39] woodwork

[1:01:40] everything else you know to turn it into

[1:01:42] a serviceable

[1:01:44] instrument and all the while he would

[1:01:46] talk to me about buddhism

[1:01:48] and i was fascinated by everything that

[1:01:51] he said

[1:01:52] i remember the one thing that he said

[1:01:54] that made the most profound

[1:01:57] impression on me is he said about the

[1:02:00] buddha's teaching

[1:02:01] he said the buddha said don't take

[1:02:04] my word for any of this come

[1:02:07] and see for yourself now that

[1:02:11] is the scientific approach right that is

[1:02:14] also the most rational approach

[1:02:16] i was very disenchanted with taking

[1:02:19] anything on faith from anyone anywhere

[1:02:21] been there done that what i wasn't going

[1:02:23] to make that mistake again

[1:02:26] and to be presented with the most

[1:02:29] systematic and coherent doctrine

[1:02:32] of spiritual development that i've ever

[1:02:34] heard of in my life

[1:02:36] and to be told don't take my word for

[1:02:40] any of this just try it see for yourself

[1:02:44] then i felt like yeah i i was home

[1:02:48] yeah i mean that is just

[1:02:52] perhaps i'm reading too much into it but

[1:02:54] um

[1:02:55] you know the kissmet of of having that

[1:02:58] broken

[1:02:58] sitter and then meeting this person and

[1:03:01] and

[1:03:02] when uh so much of that you speak in tmi

[1:03:06] you speak about the whole unification of

[1:03:07] mind basically putting your mind

[1:03:09] together

[1:03:10] uh to into a serviceable instrument

[1:03:13] right uh i mean it's you know

[1:03:16] from a psychoanalytical point of view

[1:03:19] that's pretty amazing

[1:03:20] and then uh that

[1:03:24] is i'm not sure which instrument it was

[1:03:26] but

[1:03:27] um in the the suitors where they

[1:03:30] they the buddha does the famous

[1:03:33] discourse on

[1:03:34] on the strings not being too taught or

[1:03:36] to was it a setup

[1:03:38] or something something similar it was it

[1:03:40] would it was an instrument

[1:03:42] similar to a sitar i don't think it was

[1:03:45] a sitar

[1:03:46] i think it may have been one of the

[1:03:47] predecessors too it was a strange

[1:03:49] instrument

[1:03:50] strict instrument yeah and um

[1:03:56] the thing about many

[1:03:59] indian instruments is that they usually

[1:04:01] have

[1:04:02] sympathetic strings which must be tuned

[1:04:05] to each other

[1:04:06] and to the main strings in a way that

[1:04:09] produces that

[1:04:10] that they vibrate sympathetically i mean

[1:04:12] they can be strummed and they are

[1:04:14] in certain parts of the music but most

[1:04:17] of the time

[1:04:17] they're not touched but they have to be

[1:04:20] tuned just right so they resonate

[1:04:22] with the notes that you're plucking on

[1:04:24] the main string

[1:04:25] and this gives it this incredible

[1:04:27] richness yes

[1:04:30] yes and so you need to know that about

[1:04:34] musical instruments in order not to to

[1:04:37] mistake it like tuning a guitar or like

[1:04:40] tuning

[1:04:41] a modern western loot which is a guitar

[1:04:44] like instrument

[1:04:45] we're not just talking about tuning the

[1:04:48] strings

[1:04:49] in in a good enough way to produce a

[1:04:52] recognizable melody

[1:04:54] we're talking about tuning a lot of

[1:04:56] strings in such a way that they're in

[1:04:58] perfect resonance with each other

[1:05:00] wow as a matter of fact just telling you

[1:05:03] this i realized

[1:05:05] that learning to play sitar learning to

[1:05:07] tune a sitar

[1:05:09] discovering the incredible potential

[1:05:12] that there is

[1:05:13] in finding that exact resonance

[1:05:16] the experience of thinking you found it

[1:05:19] and oh isn't this lovely

[1:05:20] and then somebody else coming along and

[1:05:22] helping you a little bit later

[1:05:24] and discovering oh there's a whole new

[1:05:26] dimension of sound

[1:05:28] that because i hadn't quite gotten all

[1:05:31] of these

[1:05:32] strings each individual string not too

[1:05:35] loose and not too tight you know

[1:05:39] that had a profound format that was a

[1:05:42] profound informative experience in

[1:05:44] itself

[1:05:44] it helped me to understand a lot of

[1:05:46] things since

[1:05:48] but yeah that's that's that's what that

[1:05:51] reference is about

[1:05:52] yeah what what year are we talking about

[1:05:54] here uh more or less

[1:05:56] oh we'd be talking about i guess 1970

[1:06:00] 1970 yeah so it's also about the same

[1:06:03] time that ravi shankar

[1:06:04] was introduced to to the west and

[1:06:08] and you know there was this influx of of

[1:06:11] eastern culture uh yeah

[1:06:14] i discovered ravi shankar and

[1:06:17] i bought i think the first album that he

[1:06:20] produced in

[1:06:21] a vinyl album and uh in the us

[1:06:26] amazing yeah so you know there was this

[1:06:29] there's there was this um

[1:06:31] interaction between the time the

[1:06:33] zeitgeist and your

[1:06:35] experiences that were just perfectly

[1:06:37] aligned to push you in

[1:06:38] in this this direction um

[1:06:41] so i think that we've we've run out of

[1:06:44] time for

[1:06:45] today um before i let you go though can

[1:06:47] i just ask you you did say that you had

[1:06:49] learned to play other musical

[1:06:50] instruments were you self-taught and

[1:06:52] which instruments were we talking about

[1:06:55] well uh what i had learned to play

[1:07:01] the only experience i had in school it

[1:07:04] was of any meaning or value to me

[1:07:07] since i was horrible at everything else

[1:07:09] and couldn't you know was

[1:07:10] extremely uncomfortable with the

[1:07:13] classroom the only thing that really

[1:07:14] appealed to me was band

[1:07:17] and so uh my the first musical

[1:07:20] instrument i learned

[1:07:22] was clarinet and as a matter of fact

[1:07:25] the only days that i would the only

[1:07:27] thing i would go to school for

[1:07:29] were the band lessons

[1:07:33] and of course i got my own clarinet and

[1:07:36] so i could play at home so even though i

[1:07:38] only went

[1:07:38] i only made it to maybe two or three

[1:07:41] band classes in a week at most

[1:07:44] uh and i loved it and my mother was very

[1:07:48] musical my father was very musical

[1:07:50] they both played piano my mother sang

[1:07:53] i was very familiar with music i loved

[1:07:55] it and it was something it was

[1:07:57] one of the positive aspects of my family

[1:08:00] life

[1:08:01] was was music i mean

[1:08:04] uh with all the other things i said

[1:08:06] about my father he would also come home

[1:08:09] and from work and releases tensions by

[1:08:13] playing the piano just playing gorgeous

[1:08:15] piano music

[1:08:17] uh and so anyway i started out with the

[1:08:20] clarinet

[1:08:21] then i was introduced to the saxophone

[1:08:23] then the oboe

[1:08:25] and i love the oboe i was taught to make

[1:08:27] my own

[1:08:28] reeds and i played played the oboe so i

[1:08:32] was mostly involved with

[1:08:34] wind instruments and

[1:08:38] in my early university years

[1:08:41] i was introduced to guitar and i had a

[1:08:44] really

[1:08:45] cheap crappy plastic guitar

[1:08:49] that that i got hold of for for free

[1:08:53] and so i'd self-taught myself a little

[1:08:55] bit on the guitar but and never

[1:08:58] probably largely do the quality of the

[1:08:59] instrument i would never

[1:09:01] well also the fact that between working

[1:09:04] uh working 20 hours a week and carrying

[1:09:07] a very full-time load at university

[1:09:09] there wasn't time it wasn't something

[1:09:11] but that was my first string dancer and

[1:09:13] my second string

[1:09:14] instrument was this uh this sitar that i

[1:09:17] got on a whim

[1:09:19] you know and by the way back in uh back

[1:09:22] in

[1:09:22] 1969 1970 25

[1:09:26] for a graduate student was a hell of a

[1:09:28] was a lot of money

[1:09:29] and i presume that you know your average

[1:09:31] music shop did not have a lot of sitters

[1:09:33] lying around

[1:09:34] either no absolutely not so

[1:09:37] so you really found a kind of a gem in a

[1:09:40] sense that's true

[1:09:41] yes i do yeah wow

[1:09:44] amazing right so i think next time we

[1:09:46] will we will begin with

[1:09:48] uh with kemahananda and

[1:09:51] uh your experiences with him mending the

[1:09:54] sitar

[1:09:55] and and getting involved uh with the

[1:09:58] buddhist teachings

[1:09:59] through him this has been really

[1:10:01] fascinating um i think the thing that

[1:10:03] always strikes me is

[1:10:05] that the amazing swings that your life

[1:10:07] went through you know

[1:10:08] it wasn't there was no there was no um

[1:10:12] you were certainly not walking a middle

[1:10:14] way in terms of your life it was you

[1:10:16] know

[1:10:17] really amazing heights that you were

[1:10:19] reaching and then

[1:10:21] swinging completely to the other end

[1:10:22] which i think was pretty amazing and

[1:10:24] then back again

[1:10:25] well i averaged the middleway yeah

[1:10:31] yeah i'll give you that um all right so

[1:10:34] i'm going to stop the recording now

[1:10:36] and we will continue next week

[1:10:45] you

Culadasa
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PsychedelicsDisillusionmentMeditation-originsTrip-sittingThe-mind-illuminated

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In this episode Culadasa recounts leaving university in disillusionment in the 1960s, moving toward psychedelic experiences, and becoming an informal "trip doctor" who helped others through bad trips. He then reflects on whether those experiences pointed to the same states described by Christian mystics, which led him toward meditation.
He used the term for himself during the 1960s, when people who had taken psychoactive substances would gather spontaneously and some would have frightening experiences. He would talk them through by encouraging them not to fight the experience and to accept it, which he compared to how a panic attack can feed itself.
In the episode he says the psychedelics illustrated the illusoriness of the world he had already sensed, and that they seemed to open a path toward what mystics like John of the Cross described. He later came to see meditation as the natural next step, reaching such states through disciplined practice rather than drugs.
The episode's title begins with the claim that experiences don't mean much, and the talk suggests that a vivid experience can point toward a truth without being the truth itself. Culadasa treats his psychedelic years as an apprenticeship in recognizing how perception can be altered, not as proof of any particular reality.
The episode says he had been engaged in mystical pursuits before his psychedelic years, and that he left a seminary program in a state of deep disillusionment. He did not yet know Eastern philosophy or meditation at the time, and he says he was looking for direction after finding little in what he had explored.
Yes. The channel's description identifies Culadasa, John Yates, as the author of The Mind Illuminated, which combines Buddhist meditation teachings with research in cognitive psychology and neuroscience. The book is the systematic outgrowth of the search that this episode describes.
Culadasa explains that although mescaline is a primary active ingredient in peyote, peyote is a mixture of alkaloids. He says it produces a significantly different overall effect than purified mescaline.

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