Transcript
[0:00] I'm Bo Seo. I'm a two-time world debate champion,
a former coach of the Australian National and
[0:06] Harvard debate teams, and the author of Good
Arguments. Thank you for watching Big Think.
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And now back to the interview.
[0:37] Chapter one, how good arguments work.
[0:43] I felt the need to write good arguments because I
think our public conversations are in a state of
[0:50] crisis and that is the more visible crisis that
we see where every disagreement out in media or
[0:58] in the public square is a source of division and
pain. But it's also the hidden crisis of all the
[1:05] people who are driven away from participating in
those conversations at all because they fear that
[1:11] it's going to be pointless or it's going to be
painful and it's not going to be worth their time.
[1:17] Good arguments is not only what democracies have
to do. It's what they on their best days aspire
[1:25] to be, which is a conversation between people who
disagree sometimes over irreconcilable things to
[1:32] find areas of agreement to spot points where they
need to work across their differences to reach
[1:38] a better solution. One of the reasons why our
arguments are so divisive and painful and present
[1:45] is that we've allowed the skills of disagreeing
well to atrophy. We no longer view argument as a
[1:52] skill and as something to be worked at. Rather,
we see it as something we jump into out of
[1:58] instinct or defensiveness. The bad arguments
that result in turn decrease our confidence
[2:05] in what disagreements can do for us. And when
we lack that faith in what arguments can do,
[2:14] we tend to approach them more defensively. We tend
to go into it with a more defensive posture. And
[2:21] as a result, the lack of faith and lack of
confidence tends to be self-reinforcing. And
[2:28] the resulting cascade means that the quality of
the conversation further degrades. The tradition
[2:35] of good argument that I'm trying to advocate for
is very much rooted in history. It goes back all
[2:42] the way to antiquity where in ancient Greece the
ability to make your point persuasively to engage
[2:49] other citizens in discussion and debate was seen
as a kind of a requirement of citizenship. that
[2:56] it's what it meant for us to govern ourselves.
And that developed through tea houses and pubs
[3:04] and coffee houses in London where while
the debates of Parliament were going on,
[3:09] citizens would gather and have the same debates
between themselves and to kind of play out as
[3:17] though they were parliamentarians, as though they
were governing themselves. And that tradition kind
[3:23] of carries forth in the United States with a
lot of the founding fathers starting debate
[3:29] clubs and colleges viewing part of their role
as leaders and as founders of a new country as
[3:36] instilling in the nation that spirit of debate.
And though that tradition has become harder and
[3:44] harder to discern in our everyday lives, there
have been periods in the history of the US and
[3:50] the history of democracies and the history of
the world where those debates were a feature
[3:55] of people's day-to-day lives. So, one high-profile
debate that comes to mind is the series of debates
[4:02] between the civil rights leader James Farmer and
Malcolm X, who had a different view of what racial
[4:10] liberation looked like, what the appropriate
response to racism was. And these were a series of
[4:17] disagreements between people who were ostensibly
on the same side, whose objectives were in some
[4:23] sense allied, but they were not shy about voicing
their disagreements in really candid, strong,
[4:32] forthroated ways in the view of the public.
knowing that the other side would respond
[4:38] respectfully, that they would be candid about the
disagreements, and through that conversation that
[4:44] they would be able to get somewhere they couldn't
on their own. There are three lessons that I take
[4:50] away from the farmer Malcolm X debates.
The first is the importance of training.
[4:56] farmer came up under one of the great debate
coaches who ever lived, Melvin Tolson,
[5:01] who was memorialized actually by Denzel Washington
in that movie, The Great Debaters. And Malcolm X
[5:09] too found his voice through a debate program in
prison that allowed inmates to debate against
[5:16] local colleges and local schools and to find an
outlet for the kind of thinking that they had done
[5:23] through engagement with texts and with each other.
So the first is in order for us to be able to host
[5:29] the kinds of public debates again that enlarges
our understanding of what's possible, we have to
[5:36] start training and we have to start training
our young people. We have to train ourselves
[5:41] to be able to engage in those conversations.
The second is the importance of format. So in
[5:49] the debates between these two men and some of them
were in colleges, some of them were on television,
[5:55] some of them were in radio. It's striking how
long they were given to make their points. It
[6:03] wasn't one to two minutes then interruptions.
Often they would be given quite a long stretch
[6:09] of time to present their arguments with the
knowledge that once they had spoken the other
[6:16] person would speak and they would get another
turn. So they could and they were sometimes
[6:20] forced to sit back and listen knowing that
their chance was not now, it was coming later.
[6:27] So there's an importance of the kind of format
in which we pit two people against one another.
[6:34] The third thing that you see in those debates is
the importance of having a relationship with the
[6:41] person that you're disagreeing with that's greater
than just the disagreement itself. So behind the
[6:47] scenes of these big public encounters, Farmer
and Malcolm X were getting to know one another.
[6:54] They were going to one another's houses. And
so by being in a relationship with the other
[7:01] person that's more than just the differences, by
introducing the family to one another, by seeing
[7:07] the other areas of life, by doing other things
together, you can often enlarge the possibility
[7:13] of what you do within the debate. You can be
more candid there. You can be fullthroated. can
[7:21] come at the other person honestly, but you know
there's a relationship that you can fall back on.
[7:28] So I started debating because I moved in the third
grade from South Korea to Australia without really
[7:35] speaking English. And I quickly found the hardest
part of crossing language lines of cultural lines
[7:42] was adjusting to real life conversation where
people can mid-sentence pivot into talking about
[7:50] something else where what their faces say and what
their gestures say don't always match the words
[7:56] that are coming out of their mouths. And I found
that all of those difficulties tended to compound
[8:02] in disagreements where passions tend to run and
people tend to be more disruptive, to interrupt,
[8:10] to speed up and slow down at unexpected moments.
And in response to all that, I resolved to be
[8:18] very agreeable in the way in which I presented at
school and to keep my thoughts to myself. And the
[8:26] thing that changed that and shook me out of that
was I joined the debate team off the strength of
[8:33] one promise from my fifth grade elementary school
teacher which was that in debate when one person
[8:41] speaks no one else does. And to someone who had
been used to being interrupted and spun out of
[8:49] conversation that sounded to me like a kind of
salvation. One of the things that I learned as
[8:57] a person really on the margins who didn't really
speak the language, was visibly out of place on
[9:05] the playground and in the and in the classroom was
I learned to listen. I learned to read a room. I
[9:13] learned to take the temperature of a place before
I ever raised my voice. And I learned to do that
[9:20] not to get hurt first of all, but also because it
was the only way in which I would ever be heard.
[9:27] And it so happens that many of the most successful
debaters tend to come from these slightly marginal
[9:36] backgrounds to have the perspective of someone on
the periphery. And I think the reason for that is
[9:42] because though it's easier to focus on the person
at the front of the room delivering a debate
[9:48] speech, much of the action of debate and much of
the strategy of getting ahead in debate involves
[9:57] listening really intently not only to what one's
opponent is saying, but also to listen from the
[10:04] perspective of an audience so that you might be
able to anticipate what they might need to hear
[10:09] next. And so what started for me as a kind of
a liability or uh a disadvantage that I had
[10:17] to overcome ended up being a tremendous strength
because I think one of the great lessons of debate
[10:24] is in order to be heard, you have to first listen.
Debates are only as good as the information and
[10:34] the knowledge and the skills that debaters
bring to it. And one of the more concerning
[10:40] things that we see at the moment is people's
information diets not being sufficiently varied,
[10:47] not being sufficiently rich to sustain the kinds
of conversations that we want to have. The first
[10:53] thing is we cannot allow the debates that we see
on cable television to be a kind of a replacement
[11:02] for the disagreements that we should be having
in our day-to-day lives. So our political leaders
[11:08] or our favorite media personalities can't be like
avatars to whom we outsource the work of thinking
[11:17] for ourselves and having these conversations for
ourselves. So the first is viewing media not as
[11:23] a substitution but as a source of equipment and
knowledge that we can then transfer into the kinds
[11:30] of conversations that we have. The second thing is
having a a variety and a diversity of sources that
[11:39] we turn to to get our information. And one of the
impulses that partisan media, siloed information
[11:50] sources feed off is our desire to be validated,
to have news reflect back to us what we already
[11:59] believe to be true about the world. And just
the way that debate encourages us to seek out
[12:06] differences and to see them as productive and
revoly and mindexpanding. So we should view the
[12:14] different signals and information and perspectives
we take in because that richer diet allows us to
[12:21] see more perspectives and to challenge our
own thinking more consistently. For me,
[12:26] my love of debate and desire to see things from
different perspectives to if not always agree then
[12:36] at least to understand the perspective from which
others are coming from is inextricably tied to a
[12:43] life that I've led of always moving countries. I
had to move from South Korea to Australia as an
[12:49] 8-year-old. I grew up in Australia, then moved to
the US for college. I got a post-graduate degree
[12:57] in China and and then came back through Australia
back to the US. And through each of these moves,
[13:06] there was a lot of work of translation and work
of adaptation and having to figure out where the
[13:17] surroundings were at before I could make a home in
them. And a lot of that was information gathering,
[13:25] whether that be reading the news, but often in
conversation with people in those locations,
[13:32] in those neighborhoods to figure out that most
basic and difficult question, which is where am
[13:37] I? And to do that, you needed all the help that
you could get. And you needed to rely on all the
[13:45] information sources you could get. And one of
the things that I learned to do, I think, is
[13:49] to resist easy answers to that question. Um, and
to try and piece together from a kind of a mosaic
[13:56] um all the different sides of a place. We're used
to thinking about listening as an essentially
[14:04] passive act where we sit back in our chairs and
take it all in. Debaters know that it's a much
[14:12] more active process than that. So when a speaker
is speaking, a debater has paper and pen ready
[14:19] and they're doing at least three things. The first
is they're trying to transcribe in as accurate a
[14:26] detail what the other person is saying. And often
when you separate out your own perceptions of what
[14:34] the speech is versus the reality of it, you'll
find that it's sometimes different. The next thing
[14:39] that you're trying to do is try and reconstruct
the argument that's being presented in its most
[14:47] basic form to say what is the real thrust of this
argument and can I put it down on the page and
[14:55] organize it on the page in a way the other side
would recognize as faithful to their argument. The
[15:02] next thing that you're doing is you're sometimes
building up that argument into even a stronger
[15:07] version. So what else could the opposition have
said to further their argument to improve their
[15:13] argument? And through this process, you're not
only listening to the words that's coming out,
[15:19] you're trying to reconstruct the deeper meaning
behind it, you're trying to strengthen their
[15:24] argument, all for the purpose of being able to
engage with their case and their perspective
[15:30] more fully. There are two lessons that we can take
away from how debaters listen and and to try and
[15:37] apply it in our own lives. The first is it is in
your best interest to understand the opposition's
[15:45] argument as they would understand it. And what
that means is it's not in your best interest to
[15:51] twist their meaning or to take it at its worst
or to capture only a fraction of it because they
[15:58] won't feel as though they had been listened to
and heard and ultimately responded to. And unless
[16:04] that moment, that click and that moment of contact
happens, it's not a real disagreement. It's not a
[16:11] real debate. It's a kind of a quarrel or people
talking across one another. The second thing is
[16:18] it's also in your best interest to respond to the
strongest version of the other side and sometimes
[16:24] to build up the other side's case so that it's
even better than where they have it now. And the
[16:30] reason for that is, you know, after you finish
speaking, the opposition might have a light bulb
[16:36] and come up with a better case or someone on their
side might say, "You've responded to the weak
[16:42] version of this argument, but here's something
better." So the further you can take it and the
[16:47] stronger the version of the other side you can
respond to, the further ahead you pull, the more
[16:53] you challenge the other side to go even further
and the better the conversation becomes. Arguments
[17:00] are easy to start and hard to end because
difference is the natural state of things. There
[17:08] are any number of differences between two people
and when one of those issues comes to the four,
[17:15] you can have a disagreement. But unless you're
selective about the kinds of arguments that you
[17:22] pick and unless you're careful to say we're having
this disagreement at this moment and not all the
[17:28] other disagreements we could be having, all of
the differences between two people can start
[17:35] flooding in and the argument becomes this unruly
mass of of conflict between two people where any
[17:44] of the potential sources of conflict can come to
the four and you're not making progress on any
[17:50] given one. As a competitive debater, you become a
bit enthusiastic about disagreeing and you tend to
[18:00] want to take on any claim that you might disagree
with and and and and try to provide the best
[18:06] argument against it. And one of the frameworks
that I developed in order to be a little bit
[18:13] more judicious to pick my fights more wisely is
called the RISA framework. And that is before
[18:21] launching into a disagreement or challenging
a claim to ask four things. First, whether
[18:27] the disagreement is in fact real as opposed
to an imagined slight or a misunderstanding.
[18:34] The second is to ask whether it's important enough
to you to justify the disagreement. The third is
[18:41] to ask whether the question or the topic of
disagreement is specific enough in order for
[18:46] you to make some progress. And the fourth is to
ask whether you and the other person engaged in
[18:52] the disagreement are aligned in your objectives
for wanting to partake in that conversation.
[18:58] And by checking off on these four lists, you can't
guarantee that a conversation is going to go well,
[19:06] but you may be able to give it the best possible
chance of doing so. One of the limitations of the
[19:12] RISA framework that I worry about is that it is
increasingly difficult to find the right kind
[19:19] of alignment in people's interest for wanting to
engage in a disagreement. So if you have two sides
[19:25] that simply want to hurt one another's feelings by
having an argument, that's some kind of alignment,
[19:32] but not the right kind that leads to productive
conversations. And the place where the RISA
[19:38] framework can go wrong is in a world where
everybody wants to engage in disagreements for bad
[19:45] reasons. And to combat that, I think we need to
restore confidence and faith in what disagreements
[19:53] can be and to highlight its potential as
a source for good as well as a source for
[19:58] ill. So one place where you might be able to apply
the RISA framework is an event that is a source
[20:06] of dread for a lot of people which is getting
together with extended family for Thanksgiving
[20:12] or Christmas or Easter and knowing that some of
the personal or political disagreements are going
[20:18] to bubble up to the surface. The RISA framework
provides two sources of help in that situation.
[20:26] The first is that every disagreement should
start with a little bit of agreement. And
[20:32] that is often naming exactly what it is that you
disagree about so that it doesn't bubble up into
[20:40] uh an unruly conflict about all the different
slights and and and disagreements and all the
[20:47] different areas in which you don't see eye to eye.
And the first step is to name the disagreement in
[20:53] front of you. And you need to do that before you
can even start to apply the RISA framework. The
[20:59] second thing is it may be that two people don't
start with the same objectives in mind when they
[21:08] enter the conversation. But one of the things
that you might be able to do is to check well why
[21:13] do you want to engage in this disagreement? And
can we come to an agreement about what it is that
[21:19] we're hoping to get out of this conversation. So
forcing the slightly quarrelome family member who
[21:26] just wants to be a contrarian or to cause trouble
to say, "Are you really in this hoping to persuade
[21:32] me to change my mind? Or are you really in this to
hear my perspective or a different take on these
[21:38] positions that you hold?" That bit of negotiation
of why it is that we're in the conversation in the
[21:45] first instance. And that level of alignment can
often allow our conversations to go better than
[21:52] if we just jump into the disagreements without
much forethought. If intelligence is the ability
[22:00] to respond to any argument, wisdom lies in knowing
which arguments to respond to and which parts of
[22:07] an argument to respond to. And debaters usually
ask two questions. The first is is a given point
[22:15] within the opposition's argument or case is
it necessary to challenge in order for us to
[22:23] resolve the overall dispute? And if it's not, is
us challenging it or disagreeing with it going to
[22:30] help us make progress on the overall dispute. So
by asking whether a point that the other side is
[22:37] making no matter how offensive or wrong seeming it
may be by asking whether it's first necessary to
[22:45] challenge or even if it's not whether challenging
it would help us make progress on the argument.
[22:51] You can be a little bit more judicious uh in
how you disagree and prevent our arguments from
[22:58] becoming this unruly all-encompassing dispute.
The importance of beginning a dispute with the
[23:05] RISA framework is that it allows us to almost make
a contract with the other side to say this is what
[23:12] we're disagreeing about and these are the reasons
why we're engaging in that dispute. And one of the
[23:17] things that you can do with someone who tries
to break those rules to expand the debate into
[23:24] something it wasn't about to change the topic to
uh introduce new reasons for wanting to engage
[23:31] in the dispute is just to remind ourselves of the
agreement that we made of the kind of disagreement
[23:37] that we want to have and what we want to disagree
about and to bring the conversation back to those
[23:43] parameters. So much of debate is an exercise in
certainty. It's about spending sometimes weeks
[23:51] researching your side of the case, coming up
with the best possible arguments that you can,
[23:56] coming up with the best lines that you can to
sell the truth of your side to the listener.
[24:02] But in the last moments before a debater goes on
stage, they know to take a breath, to take out
[24:11] a new sheet of paper, and to put themselves in
their opponent's shoes and write the four best
[24:18] arguments for the opposing side. They know also to
look over their case again, this time through the
[24:26] eyes of someone who fervently disagrees with them
and to identify all of the flaws and the mistakes
[24:33] and the criticisms that could be leveled against
them. Debaters also know to imagine to imagine a
[24:40] world in which they lost the debate and to come up
with the reasons why they did. And those exercises
[24:47] which are called the sides switch exercises puts
a pause on that feeling of certainty. It makes us
[24:55] feel for a moment the subjective reasonleness of
other people's beliefs. It gives us that moment
[25:02] where we get back on our toes and think maybe we
missed something. It makes us imagine a world in
[25:09] which we're wrong or at least we're judged
to be wrong. And all of that isn't humility,
[25:16] isn't empathy in and of itself, but it creates a
wrigle room through which something like humility
[25:22] or empathy might arise. I find empathy hard
to practice in my day-to-day life because I
[25:30] often feel as though I don't know what it is.
Sometimes it feels like a kind of a magical
[25:36] psychic connection that you look into the eyes of
someone and then somewhere music starts playing
[25:42] in the background or it feels like a virtue that
some people are born with and that other people
[25:49] don't possess. It was through the experience of
debating that I saw a different view of empathy
[25:55] which is empathy as a series of actions which by
putting yourselves in the shoes of an opponent
[26:01] and coming up with some arguments for their case
or by looking at yourself through the eyes of an
[26:08] opposition and trying to look at all the reasons
why you might be wrong. I think so many of our
[26:15] conversations at the moment feel like they're
stuck. It's people fully convinced of their
[26:21] views shouting at at each other from a distance
and it's a kind of a trench warfare where people
[26:28] are fully entrenched in the position that they've
always held and creating that little wiggle room
[26:35] for doubt for letting in the possibility that the
other side might have a couple of points in their
[26:44] favor and that you might have missed something.
I think that's one way in which empathy comes in
[26:49] at a time when it's in such short supply. The
sites which exercises and the kind of empathy
[26:57] that debate brings into the conversation is not
only applicable in personal disagreements but
[27:05] in my view more urgently needed than ever in our
political disputes in disputes between political
[27:12] parties and factions and and your ideological
commitments. But in order for us to be able to
[27:18] put into practice, I think we have to remember
that each of us are bigger than our political
[27:26] affiliations, than our religious commitments, than
our ideological beliefs. And more importantly,
[27:36] the other person is more than a representative
of their party or their position in society or
[27:44] the beliefs that they hold. And by allowing our
encounters to be larger than the affiliations
[27:54] that we have, that gives us the best chance,
I think, of being able to explore new ideas,
[28:01] to listen to the particular nuances of where
the other person is coming from and not the
[28:05] categories we would place them in. And it's
in that setting that exercises like side
[28:12] switch become most effective. When we view the
other person and when we view ourselves in our
[28:19] fullness and not merely by our membership or
affiliation in groups of like-minded folks.
[28:31] Chapter two, why arguments break down. One of
the hardest questions I had to grapple with in
[28:40] writing this book is are there some subjects that
we simply should not debate? And the conclusion I
[28:48] came to is we should draw at least one bright
line which is saying we should not debate the
[28:56] equal moral standing of persons. And the reason
for that is the whole premise of debate. And the
[29:04] reason why we give people equal time in which to
speak and we give them the promise of being able
[29:10] to speak uninterrupted is because we say their
voice is worth hearing and their voice is worth
[29:16] hearing equally as that of their opponent. And so
a debate about whether a certain race of people
[29:22] or group of people are inferior would not be
would be antithetical to what debate stands for.
[29:29] The recent attempts to shut down debates about
certain topics or to deplatform speakers who have
[29:39] been spreading divisive and hurtful messages.
Seems to me both a response to the fact that
[29:46] many of us have lost the ability to disagree
constructively and passionately and humanely. But
[29:53] it also seems a reflection of a lack of confidence
that the resulting disagreements can be anything
[30:00] other than a source of pain and of division. And
so one of the things that I think the skills of
[30:06] debate does that the RISA framework does that
sides switching does is it expands the scope of
[30:15] what we are able to talk about because it enlarges
and improves and strengthens our ability to talk
[30:24] about contentious and difficult issues in humane,
compassionate and productive ways. So one of the
[30:31] reasons why we need the skills of debate now is
at a time when there are all these pressures to
[30:38] shut down debate to be able to not only talk about
more things but to do it in a way that brings in
[30:45] people rather than excludes them. There's a lot of
literature now about how you might be able to pull
[30:53] ahead in social media fights. There's wisdom about
not engaging in the discussion forever, not using
[31:00] too many inflammatory words, so on and so on. But
I tend to be a little bit more pessimistic about
[31:06] it. And I think in order for us to start building
back the skills of good argument, we usually need
[31:14] to do it face to face. And we might need to do
it in the absence of an audience to start with so
[31:21] that we resist the urge to perform for an audience
but rather listen and respond to the person
[31:27] across from us. So, it may well be that a better
version of social media that doesn't amplify the
[31:35] most inflammatory material, that doesn't have
anonymous contributors, that doesn't have the
[31:43] kind of the culture of hate and and and and vile
disagreements that we see at present. It may be
[31:51] that we can one day equip ourselves to engage in
a better form of social media, but I tend to think
[31:58] the starting place has to be face to face, has
to be maybe away from an audience to begin with,
[32:04] so that we're building one interaction
at a time the skills that we have lost.
[32:10] The people in my life who are most quarrelome, who
are most primed to always engage in disagreements
[32:19] tend to want, I think, two irreconcilable things.
The first is often they want to be heard and they
[32:26] want to have their perspective carry through and
to connect with the listener. But another slightly
[32:33] darker desire they have is to dominate over their
opponents and to show themselves superior. And the
[32:41] two are in conflict because the point of one is to
make a connection with the other side and to have
[32:47] your message carry through. Whereas the other is
to almost leapfrog over the listener and to show
[32:55] yourself to be better than them. And so I think
those people are often caught. And one of the
[33:01] reasons why the people who are most quarrelome,
who put themselves out as best at debate,
[33:07] need to continue engaging with it, is because they
don't quite find what they're looking for. And I
[33:12] think what they're looking for is connection.
I've had to think a lot about conflict aversion
[33:17] because I myself am a pretty conflict averse
person. I used to be one and I still feel the
[33:25] instinct of that despite all my years in debate.
And this is something I've changed my mind about.
[33:33] I used to think that conflict aversion was
a lack of confidence in one's own abilities,
[33:39] a kind of a defensiveness to shield oneself from
hurt, to protect oneself from revealing too much
[33:47] or becoming too vulnerable to the other side. And
I think that is one element. But nowadays I think
[33:54] conflict aversion also shows a lack of confidence
in the other person in their ability to receive
[34:01] you with some measure of grace to respond to you
kindly and to make something constructive out of
[34:07] the conversation you're building together. And
so I think the common trait of conflict averse
[34:15] folks is a lack of confidence not only in one's
own abilities but I think more controllingly
[34:22] more importantly in the other person. Where the
conflict averse person and the highly combative
[34:30] person meet in my view is in their shared desire
for a connection. And it's a connection that they
[34:39] don't get just by persisting in their most natural
modes. You can't connect if the only grounds on
[34:47] which you connect with another person or you reach
out to another person is similarity rather than
[34:53] difference. And similarly, you can't connect
if your whole desire is to dominate or to show
[35:00] yourself to be superior than the other person.
So in managing both of those personalities as a
[35:07] debater and as a coach but also as in my view
every human contains both of these instincts
[35:14] within them. I think the place where they meet and
the middle ground where good arguments stem from
[35:22] is from a recognition that it's through connection
with others. It's through an encounter with others
[35:28] that we get more than we would be able to on our
own. Some of the most painful disagreements we
[35:34] come across in our day-to-day lives are with loved
ones. And I think the reason for that in one word
[35:41] is carelessness. When it comes to those whom we're
closest to, we are usually quickest to assume they
[35:49] should agree with us. After all, they're the
people we've chosen to share our lives with.
[35:54] We're quickest to assume they should understand
us even when we're not expressing ourselves very
[35:59] clearly. After all, they're the people who know
us best. And the combination of all of those
[36:05] things is we're least likely to think about the
effort that it takes to disagree well because we
[36:14] have this idea that love should be effortless.
Um, and the great tragedy of that is if only we
[36:21] love the other person a little bit less or if we
cared for them a little bit less, then maybe our
[36:27] disagreements would be less painful. The more we
care about another person, the more high stakes a
[36:34] disagreement feels. The closer we feel to another
person, the more we think they must agree with us.
[36:41] And the more of our lives we share with another
person, the more points of potential disagreements
[36:47] arise. So in this time of extreme polarization,
the impulse to seek out agreement can feel
[36:57] pretty attractive. And this is the rhetoric of
remember there is no red America, no blue America,
[37:05] right? This is the unifying rhetoric of focusing
on all of the different things that we have in
[37:14] common rather than the things that bring us
apart. And someone might plead at this point,
[37:19] we're all human after all and we should focus
on that. And the force of that argument, that
[37:25] unifying rhetoric derives not only from what we
can do when we focus on the agreement between us,
[37:35] but I think also from the shadow that lurks, which
is disagreements can be really destructive. And
[37:42] so part of the appeal of that unifying logic
comes from conjuring up the boogeymen of what
[37:50] disagreement can be. And at least it's not that.
At least we can have agreement that's a little
[37:58] bit thinner, maybe a little bit blander, just
having to do with us being generally human or
[38:03] living in the same place. But it's better than the
alternative of divisive and painful disagreements.
[38:14] Chapter 3. Power, persuasion,
and bad faith debate.
[38:20] I think we're living at a time of real distrust of
rhetoric. And when we say something is rhetoric,
[38:26] we mean something like it's mere rhetoric. Those
are just empty words or you're trying to fool me
[38:33] in some way. You're trying to manipulate me. And
the origins of that suspicion of rhetoric come
[38:40] right from the beginning of rhetoric as a kind of
an education and a tradition. So there's a debate
[38:46] between Socrates and Gorgius who's a rhetorician
and a public speaker and Socrates accuses Gorgius
[38:55] essentially of practicing an art rhetoric which
is divorced from the truth that prays on people's
[39:03] desire to be flattered that prays on their kind of
ficklessness and their responsiveness to emotional
[39:10] appeal rather than the dictates of reason. And
this view and this suspicion of rhetoric has
[39:18] really won out these days. When people say that's
just rhetoric, it's a kind of an accusation. It's
[39:24] a put down. It's a way to reveal a kind of a
trick. And in the book, I take the opposite view
[39:31] that it's precisely because of our frailties, our
capacity to be lazy, our capacity to be apathetic
[39:41] that we need things that tug at our heartstrings
and forces us to take some action. that because it
[39:48] takes an enormous amount of activation energy to
change our minds at all, let alone to act on those
[39:55] changed beliefs, we need something greater than
ourselves to pull us along. Now, that comes with
[40:02] a recognition that we're playing with murial
elements, right? With emotion, with passion,
[40:10] with fellow feeling, with identifying with the
speaker. But as with so many things in debate, a
[40:18] conversation that doesn't have these elements that
make us human is also a conversation diminished.
[40:26] It's a conversation that is not lifelike and that
lacks some of the vastness, some of the richness
[40:36] that a real human conversation can provide. And
to do that, I think you need rhetoric. Whenever we
[40:44] teach a population a great and powerful new skill
that can be used for good or for evil, we need to
[40:55] give them the tools to manage that new power. And
that's true of whether it's nuclear physics or
[41:02] whether it's a martial art or whether it's working
in weapons development. You need to give people
[41:08] both the ability to harness the power for good and
to prevent it from being used for bad. And I think
[41:15] this is true for debate too. That in a world where
many people possess the tools of rhetoric, some of
[41:25] them will use it for evil, will use it to promote
bad ends. and a population that understands both
[41:34] faces of rhetoric, the ways in which it can
be used for good, but the ways in which it
[41:39] can be hijacked and abused. I think that's a
population that has more immunity to demagoguery,
[41:46] to the abuses of rhetoric because they're able to
identify what is happening to be able to call it
[41:53] out in some instances and resist the temptation
to simply go along with it uncritically. There
[42:00] are three principles from debate on using rhetoric
more effectively in our disagreements. The first
[42:07] is proportionality. The second is personality.
And the third is panache. It's the three Ps. The
[42:14] first is many of the abuses of rhetoric come
when the kinds of claims that we're making or
[42:21] the words we're using or the gestures we're making
are out of sync with the content of the arguments.
[42:27] They exaggerate or they diminish or they're out
of proportion. So the first is not to overstate
[42:34] things but not to understate things either both
in terms of the language that we use and in the
[42:39] gestures that we use. So there has to be a kind of
a proportionality between the rhetoric we marshall
[42:45] in favor of our arguments and the arguments
themselves. The second is personality which
[42:51] is bringing ourselves into our arguments a little
bit more. Remember what we're trying to do is to
[42:58] make the audience undergo a kind of a change to
end up somewhere believing something they didn't
[43:05] before. And in order to do that, they have to
make a kind of a journey from where they were
[43:10] to where they're going. And one way in which we
might be able to help them undergo that journey
[43:15] is by explaining how we went through that process
ourselves. So people may not always know very much
[43:22] about a particular issue or the truth of any given
claim but people are pretty good at judging other
[43:28] people and by showing your own journey and how
you got to the position and the perspective that
[43:33] you're offering that can often be very useful.
The last bit is panache which is there is a part
[43:40] of rhetoric which is crafting the language putting
the right combination of words in sequence using
[43:47] all the tools of voice and gesture to be able to
most effectively sell that argument. Those moments
[43:54] of panache or what we call in debates sometimes
applause lines are important because they signal
[44:01] to the listener that they are worthy of a certain
kind of attention and work that we with them
[44:07] in mind put in all this time to try and make
this sound as convincing as we possibly could.
[44:15] So Arthur Schoppenhower was a German philosopher
born in the late 1700s and in addition to all
[44:23] of the broad-ranging contributions that he
made to philosophy from aesthetics to ethics,
[44:29] he personally took a pretty dim view of humanity
and of our situation. He said as a teenager
[44:36] having experienced a lot of loss in his family
that the world must be the work of a devil who
[44:43] created the world so that they could relish in
the suffering that people went through. And in
[44:48] his work as a philosopher he was known as a very
confrontational quarrelome character who picked
[44:55] fights with everyone and and try to get one up
them in a debate and and in a in a disagreement.
[45:01] And later in his life, he wrote this uh parody
document uh called the aristic dialectic where he
[45:09] offers 30 odd tactics for beating the other side
at all costs. And they're tactics like interrupt
[45:19] and call the other person names or change the
subject or offer a nonsequittor to confuse
[45:26] the other side. And the question for me and the
question with any parody is does he believe that
[45:35] this is all there is? That this is all people are
really capable of or is it a kind of a political
[45:42] document inspired to help us do better to see our
situation for what it is the comic slightly tragic
[45:52] mess that our disagreements can be and to aspire
to do something better. So the rules of debate,
[45:59] simple as they are, matter because it's what
makes a conversation a debate rather than
[46:05] simply conflict or an exchange of insults. When
we explode the rules of debate, we change what
[46:14] is valued and rewarded in a conversation. So, in a
free-for-all of the kind that Schopenhau prepares
[46:22] us for, the things that are rewarded are leaving
the other side speechless or putting forward a
[46:30] dominant performance that gets the other side to
trip up or gets the audience to jeer and boo the
[46:38] opposition so that we're not able to hear them at
all. So the rules of debate are important because
[46:45] in order for us to reward, reasoning, thinking,
responding, listening, all of the things that we
[46:55] value and should value in conversation, we need
to first set up a structure that rewards that.
[47:01] The one glimmer that we see in this parody
document by Schopenhau is this notion that
[47:07] by understanding the tactics that bullies use,
by being able to counter them, by being able
[47:13] to defend ourselves against them and in some ways
turn some of those tactics against them, we may be
[47:20] able to deter them from using those tactics in the
first instance. So even in this quite dark view of
[47:27] what disagreements can do, there's a sense that
by learning a kind of a defense against the dark
[47:32] arts, we may be able to nudge our conversations in
a better direction. One of the reasons why debate
[47:40] is vulnerable to the manipulations of bad faith
actors is that it rewards both persuasiveness but
[47:48] also the perception of persuasiveness. So as an
adjudicator or even as a member of the audience,
[47:54] you often don't know that much about the
particular issues that are being debated. You may
[47:59] not even know about the people who are presenting
the argument. Instead, what you have is all of the
[48:06] body language, all of the ticks in their speech,
all of the signals that you get of who's ahead
[48:13] and who's behind. And bullies tend to exploit
that by appearing as the more dominant side,
[48:21] the more unshakable side that even when they're
behind in an argument, by never looking flustered
[48:29] or never looking as though they're falling
behind. And so the bullies tend, in my experience,
[48:34] to be especially attuned to the element of debate
that is spectacle in addition to reason. I think
[48:41] the reason why we're susceptible to those kinds
of manipulations is because we're imperfect. We
[48:49] like to be flattered. We like to be told things
we already believe. We like to feel like we're
[48:56] on the winning side. We like to feel like we
have the protection of someone who's stronger.
[49:02] And some of these kinds of baser instincts, some
of these kinds of insecurities that we all possess
[49:10] are exactly what bad faith arguers try to target
and exploit. I was watching the first presidential
[49:18] election debates with my debate partner and
we'd been we'd received an assignment from
[49:24] uh the Atlantic media to write a kind of a review
of the two candidates performance in the debates
[49:32] and maybe to come to a judgment of which of the
two sides have won. And we were busy taking notes
[49:41] throughout writing all of the different tactical
slip ups and and and moves that the two sides were
[49:48] using. But ultimately we ended up never filing
that article because we didn't feel like it
[49:55] had been a debate at all. And so whoever came
out ahead in the audience polls about who they
[50:05] believed had won, in as much as it was a win, it
wasn't a debate victory. Because what had unfolded
[50:12] wasn't a debate, it was a kind of a brawl. What
was then my greatest triumph in the world of
[50:18] debate, which was winning the World University's
debate championships. And what started as the
[50:25] absolute highlight of my years and the height of
my confidence in what debate could do for a person
[50:31] and could do for a society, I saw that sink to
a kind of a bottom when you saw the two people
[50:38] competing for perhaps the most consequential
office in the entire world um engage in a kind of
[50:46] an unedifying spectacle that was a debate in name
only. And I saw the potential for the format of
[50:54] debate to which I'd given much of my still short
life to. I saw the potential for that format to
[51:02] be exploited, to be hijacked, and to be degraded.
The thing that struck me most about those debates
[51:13] is how quickly a stage set up with rules, with
moderators, with the values of a community
[51:21] that had decided to make debates a part of the
democratic process. How quickly that could be
[51:28] turned into a kind of a brawl where there were no
rules, where the only thing that mattered was the
[51:35] display and the spectacle of dominance over the
other side, where embarrassment was the currency,
[51:41] or where bigging oneself up always came at the
expense of putting the other side down. And
[51:48] for me, the takeaway from that was those darker
impulses that feed into bad disagreements are not
[51:58] only within the activity of debate, but they're
within all of us. That just the way that we have
[52:04] the capacity to disagree well, we also have the
capacity to disagree badly. And both those sides
[52:11] and both those impulses have to be managed so
that we can nudge our arguments in the direction
[52:17] of the good. Having seen how the debate format
can be broken down, can be hijacked by bad faith
[52:25] debaters, I resolved to diagnose and list the
common tactics that are used by bad faith arguers
[52:35] so that we might have a hope of recognizing it
when we see it in practice and responding. And
[52:41] I came to four common kinds of bad arguers that
we see in our day-to-day lives, not only in our
[52:48] political lives, but also around the kitchen table
in our workplaces. And the four common personas
[52:56] I came up with were first the dodger, second the
twister, third the wrangler, and fourth the liar.
[53:06] So the dodger wins by essentially changing the
topic and they usually do this by finding a pivot
[53:14] point. So you might say something like we need
to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels because
[53:20] climate change is getting out of hand. Then
they might say on the topic of climate change,
[53:26] why do you drive a four-wheel drive? Right? Or
why do you have a a a gas guzzler in your garage?
[53:34] And it is a kind of a response on the same topic
but not to the point that you had raised. And so
[53:43] the way in which the dodger gets ahead is when you
take the bait and you start talking about your car
[53:50] and and and making defenses for yourself. And so
the response to the Dodger is to stay the course
[53:59] and to keep bringing the discussion back to the
original point and highlighting that they are
[54:06] trying to change what the disagreement is about.
The second kind of persona is the twister. And
[54:13] the twister's signature move is to misrepresent
the point that you're making. So if you say I'm
[54:19] opposed to increasing taxes, the twister might
say, does that mean you have no concern for social
[54:28] security? Or are you so selfish that you think
there should be no limits on personal property?
[54:35] And so this is a kind of a straw man argument
because it's not the argument you're raising,
[54:41] it's the one they're thrusting on you, right? And
so to respond to the twister, it's imperative to
[54:49] correct the record and say, "No, that's not what
I'm saying." Because once you get this kind of
[54:55] misrepresentation, you can often get into a
position of arguing for something you don't
[55:01] believe or at least the conversation splitting and
you not being able to connect and talk about the
[55:07] same issue. It can often be difficult to respond
to a personality like the twister because you get
[55:14] a sense that something is going wrong here
or clearly they're pulling something on you
[55:18] but you're not sure what it is. And so one of the
reasons why we need to be able to recognize things
[55:24] like straw man and just have the vocabulary to
be able to say that's what they're doing is so
[55:30] that we're able to pause and diagnose what has
gone wrong in the disagreement. The third kind
[55:36] of bad arguer is called the wrangler. And this is
the person for whom nothing is ever good enough.
[55:43] They're very good at coming up with critiques
against just about everything that you're saying,
[55:49] but they never offer an alternative of their own.
And this is a problem because your solution or the
[55:56] thing you're arguing for probably isn't perfect.
But so long as it's better than the alternative,
[56:02] which might be just doing whatever we're doing
now, it still probably is the preferable solution.
[56:09] And so the appropriate response to the wrangler is
to say, well, what do you believe? In other words,
[56:17] to pin them to a position so that they too
have to argue in favor of something rather
[56:23] than always saying no. The fourth personality
and someone we see just about everywhere in our
[56:30] public and private discussions these days is
the liar. And one of the things we know about
[56:35] the liar is they usually don't tell one lie,
they tell many. so that it becomes overwhelming
[56:42] and their opponent either doesn't know how to
respond to this effluence of stuff coming out
[56:50] from the other side or they waste all their time
trying to respond. So the strategy against a liar
[56:58] is to choose one or two representative lies that
you think best exemplifies the approach that the
[57:06] liar is taking in a disagreement. Then debaters do
something called plug and replace. The first is to
[57:13] imagine as though the opposition's claim is true
and then to explain all the problems that arise
[57:19] when you make that assumption. So let's imagine if
what you're saying is that immigrants cause lots
[57:25] of trouble when they come into a country. Then
how do you explain the fact that crime rates among
[57:31] that community is actually lower than the rest of
the population? Then you replace the lie with a
[57:38] truth and say it's in fact not true that they are
kind of bad actors who cause all these problems
[57:45] and that explains what we know to be true about
the world. And so by plugging in the lie and then
[57:51] replacing it with the truth, you can demonstrate
the ways in which the lie falls short and try
[57:57] and explain how that's symptomatic of a broader
approach that the liar is taking to the debate.
[58:05] It's entirely impractical to try to respond to
every single lie. And so it becomes important
[58:11] to choose one or two of the lies that are most
representative. And that shows something about how
[58:20] the other side is approaching the disagreement.
And by even naming that this is what they're
[58:25] doing. They're trying to overwhelm us with the
volume of lies. You start to take away some of the
[58:32] illusion or some of the trick by revealing how it
works. So now let's imagine you're up against one
[58:41] of these players who's dominant and blustering
and super confident in their abilities. How do
[58:46] you respond? I think the first thing is to stay
the course. And so often people tend to shrink
[58:55] themselves or to change their own behavior in
response to the bullies. They often try to imitate
[59:02] them and play their game, which they usually can't
because most of us are not built to be bullies
[59:10] and these kinds of blustering showmen. or they
try to speed up, for example, and shrink their
[59:18] contributions into the spaces that the bullies
allot us when they're not interrupting us. So,
[59:24] the key is to remain calm and not to change our
behavior in response to how they're trying to get
[59:31] us to change. The second is to actually pause and
say, is it a debate that we're trying to have or
[59:40] is it something else? Because one of the ways
in which bullies get ahead is by changing the
[59:45] nature of the conversation that we're having.
And as soon as you start playing the same game,
[59:51] trash talking and calling them names and so
on, that becomes the exercise that you're
[59:56] now engaged in. So it's a the second move is to
stop and remind people that it's a debate that
[1:00:03] we're trying to have and not something else. And
the last thing is if you're unable to do that,
[1:00:09] you should also be able to defer the conversation
and say we're not getting anywhere at the moment
[1:00:16] and we're going to stop until we are able to get
to a point of agreement again about the kind of
[1:00:22] conversation that we want to have. And so even
at a time when we might feel hopeless faced with
[1:00:30] a bully or a bad faith debater, we need to have
tools so that we're able to respond, but we also
[1:00:38] have these three strategies available to us to
reset the kind of conversation we want to have.
[1:00:46] The fifth persona of bad faith disagreement
differs from the other four because he or she
[1:00:54] is not interested in trying to pull a sneaky
maneuver within the logic of debate. Rather,
[1:01:02] it's their aim to change the conversation from a
debate into something else into a kind of a brawl
[1:01:09] or an allout disagreement where anything goes. And
so brawlers get ahead by changing the rules of the
[1:01:16] game so fundamentally that all of those things
that we value and debate now go out the window
[1:01:22] and you're essentially in a kind of a fist fight
uh fought over words. The first thing to remember
[1:01:29] is though many of us contain the impulses to
brawl to turn a debate into something other than a
[1:01:38] debate very few people I think are actually beyond
the pale and so pausing a conversation reminding
[1:01:46] them it's a debate that we're trying to have and
not a different kind of conversation I think can
[1:01:51] often be effective at checking and reminding the
other side I know what you're trying to do and
[1:01:58] I'm trying to resist it. I'm trying to bring this
conversation back on course. So in most instances
[1:02:05] against most people even when they are inhabiting
this bullying persona, I think the right thing is
[1:02:11] to try and bring the conversation back into the
mold of a debate. But there are instances where
[1:02:18] on that day or just because of the kind of person
they are, they're not amendable to engaging in the
[1:02:24] kind of conversation you want to. And when
you have someone like that, it may well be
[1:02:28] that persuasion can no longer be the aim of the
exchange. It can be something like checking their
[1:02:36] lies or offering a different perspective. But so
when you're faced with someone who is a brawler
[1:02:42] to their core, a bully to their core, then you
have to shift in your orientation away probably
[1:02:48] from simply persuading them, but to maybe checking
their lies or to offering a different perspective.
[1:02:56] One thing that knowledge and mastery of this kind
of defense against the dark arts allows us to do
[1:03:03] is to challenge the bullies in our lives. And some
of that is a necessity because they're there and
[1:03:11] they often bring the fight to us. But it's also
an important thing to engage bad faith actors as
[1:03:18] early as we can and in many many instances as
often as we can because the power of bullies
[1:03:25] increases without challenge and the ability of
their lies to set in and to spread. All of that is
[1:03:37] increased where there is no competing perspective.
So one of the things that this toolkit allows us
[1:03:44] to do is it allows us to challenge views that
would otherwise go undetected or underappreciated
[1:03:52] or unchallenged. So one place where we saw these
three moves of staying the course of pausing and
[1:04:01] reminding people it's a debate and of deferring
the round until the circumstances are more
[1:04:08] hospitable to having a debate uh took place during
the height of the cold war where the then US vice
[1:04:15] President Richard Nixon debated the Soviet premier
Nikita Krushov at a model US home in Moscow. Now,
[1:04:24] and here you had on one side a relatively spelt
kind of a very savvy political operator in Nixon
[1:04:31] and on the other side a much larger kind of
imposing physical presence who embodied in some
[1:04:39] way the Soviet alternative to the US vision of
liberal democracy. And in the debate that ensued,
[1:04:47] Nixon had been a kind of a champion high
school debater who had been taught that it's a
[1:04:54] conversation that we're trying to have in debate,
that you shouldn't shout at your opponents, that
[1:04:59] you shouldn't talk over them. He came across in
Kruch, a person who was used to hearing the sound
[1:05:05] of his own voice, right? Uh and not being spoken
over uh and dominating every conversation he took
[1:05:13] part in. And in response, Nixon seemed to pull
out some of the strategies that he had learned
[1:05:20] as a debater. He refused to change his argument
strategy in response to Krishv's attempt to
[1:05:28] interrupt. He stayed the course. He slowed down.
He paused while the other person was speaking, but
[1:05:35] picked up right where he had left off. He called
out all the constant interruptions. He said,
[1:05:41] "In the US, we would call you a filibuster because
you do all the talking." And that kind of moment
[1:05:47] of levity reset and took some of the heat out uh
of what would otherwise have been people talking
[1:05:54] over one another. And when none of that was
working, Nixon said, "Let's do this again another
[1:06:00] time." Right? And and forced an agreement from
Krushchev that they would pick up the discussion
[1:06:06] at a future point. And we know Nixon actually as
someone who had his hopes in electoral politics
[1:06:14] harmed in part by the televised debates with JFK
and the big story there was that he was the loser.
[1:06:22] uh but in this earlier confrontation where he
stood for as the voice of an entire country
[1:06:30] really against its main adversary it seemed
that the skills of debate stood him in much
[1:06:35] better position there so as a debater you
don't win every round you don't lose every
[1:06:40] round but the skills can come in quite useful so
Thomas Hogs the English philosopher took a pretty
[1:06:48] pessimistic view not only of disagreements But
the kinds of people we become when we engage in
[1:06:55] disagreements which is we become petty, we become
defensive, we focus on people's personality. And
[1:07:04] he believed that these petty disputes can grow
into a kind of a conflration that brings down
[1:07:13] not only relationships but also nations. And
this was a man who lived through periods of war.
[1:07:19] And so he saw the destructive force that arguments
can be. And looking at all that damage, which I
[1:07:27] think is not dissimilar to where we are and the
kind of things that we see in the destructive
[1:07:34] capacity of disagreements, he concluded that the
appropriate response was to take on a posture
[1:07:42] of civil silence towards one another. that
we wouldn't engage in these disagreements,
[1:07:49] that we would as much as possible try to grin
and bear to tolerate one another's differences
[1:07:56] and not to disagree about them overtly, lest the
disagreements grow into a state of conflict that
[1:08:04] none of us can control. I mean, Hobbes is a pretty
smart guy and uh and so it's hard to dismiss some
[1:08:10] of these ideas too flippantly. And the honest
truth is I felt the force um of that wisdom in my
[1:08:17] day-to-day life. You know, when I was feeling like
I didn't have a voice or when I was feeling like I
[1:08:26] was on the margins and my being my welcomeness in
a place was kind of conditional on me not causing
[1:08:33] too much trouble or rocking the boat. When I've
been through periods in my life where I've felt
[1:08:39] that kind of defensiveness or vulnerability,
I often did have the thought it would go a lot
[1:08:46] easier if we could focus on our similarities and
to minimize as much as possible the differences.
[1:08:55] And the problem with that is our commonalities are
only one part of the fullness of our relationship
[1:09:04] with one another. And part of what makes the
encounter between two people meaningful is not
[1:09:11] only all the things that they share, but the
differences. And that variety is a source of
[1:09:16] challenge. It's the way in which we piece together
truth from different perspectives. It's the way in
[1:09:22] which we go beyond ourselves, learn something new,
reach for something new. And so a life built just
[1:09:32] around agreement is an impoverished life because
it requires taking away and ignoring so much
[1:09:41] of the richness of human relationships and the
encounters they give rise to. I see debate as one
[1:09:51] answer to a broader question which is how do we
disagree better? And though debate is an important
[1:09:58] answer to the question, it's not the only way
in which we can disagree. And in the same way,
[1:10:03] I see the question of how we disagree better as
one answer to the question, what do we do about
[1:10:10] the fact that each of us are different, but that
we must find ways of getting along. Disagreeing
[1:10:16] about our differences is not the only way in
which we coexist and learn to navigate around
[1:10:22] our differences. We can also negotiate. We can
collaborate. We can tolerate. We can let some
[1:10:28] things pass. But we can also disagree. In the same
way, we can disagree by debating, but we can also
[1:10:36] do it through organizing our side against your
side. We can do it by lobbying one another. We
[1:10:42] can do it by negotiating. And so debate is one
set of tools that we can bring to disagreement
[1:10:49] just the way disagreement is one approach we can
bring to the broader project of living together.
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