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Inspiration

Yoga as Music: Breath, Measure and Katonah Yoga Wisdom

Kari Harendorf
Kari Harendorf
Jun 20, 2025
8 min di lettura

Da Better Yoga | Kari Harendorf

Guarda · 8

A podcast called Better Yoga opens its first episode the way a good rehearsal begins: with a host tuning up. Kari Harendorf, an Ayurvedic practitioner and yoga therapist, introduces her teacher, Nevine Michaan, founder of the Katonah Yoga method, and then lets the conversation wander through breath, geometry, daily discipline, and gratitude. What emerges is a single, unifying idea that Michaan returns to again and again: the body is an instrument, the mind is the musician, and the breath is the spirit moving through the instrument to make tone. The rest of what she says, about angles, stamina, measurement, and metaphor, is a set of techniques for learning to play that instrument well. This article draws on the first portion of that 58-minute conversation, as captured in the video's transcript, to explain those ideas on their own terms.

Lettura · 7 sezioni

Who is Nevine Michaan, and why does her teacher's introduction matter?

Harendorf's introduction lays out the arc before the conversation starts. Michaan was born in Egypt in 1954, moved to New York at the age of three, and in her early twenties, while studying history and comparative religion at Vassar College, discovered meditation. She began a daily practice in New York City under a yoga instructor the host describes as renowned in the 1970s, began teaching in 1980, and founded the Katonah Yoga Center in Katonah in 1986. Harendorf says the method has been the yoga she has taught almost exclusively for the last fifteen years, and that she uses it in her yoga therapy work with small groups and individual clients.

That history is useful context because Katonah Yoga is a method built on teaching, not just on a sequence of poses. Harendorf's reason for choosing it is specific: "it's the yoga that makes people fit themselves." The phrase points to the central preoccupation of the whole conversation, which is how a person learns to fit a shape, a principle, or a rhythm, rather than simply performing it.

What does it mean to think of yoga as music?

Michaan's core metaphor arrives early and never leaves. In her words:

"One of my big metaphors of course is yoga as music because I think the body is the instrument, the mind is a musician and your breath is the spirit moving through that instrument, the tone."

Nevine Michaan, Better Yoga podcast (episode one, around 3:19)

The metaphor is more than decoration. A musician who wants to play well does not begin with expression; they begin with tuning and timing. Michaan frames the art of yoga the same way: "knowing how to tune your instrument, how to time your instrument, how to have enough breath to play your instrument." Practice, in this model, is maintenance of an instrument so that something beautiful can happen through it. She is also clear about the reward. The pleasure is that music soothes you, feeds the spirit, and eventually lets you play with others, which she calls "very empowering."

The analogy works because it explains why repetition matters. Michaan says that a musician plays their instrument every day because it gives them joy, and she applies that same logic to yoga. Her daily practice, she explains, is grounded in joy first. "One can't ask for more," she says, and the discipline follows from that enjoyment rather than from obligation.

Why does breath become the central tool as we age?

At around four minutes into the episode, Harendorf asks what Michaan's practice looks like now, and the answer has a clear priority: breath. Michaan describes a large breathing practice and explains why it has become the most important thing at this stage of her life. "To be able to modulate my breath, to regulate my breath, to have enough stamina," she says, because "you get older and it's much more about the stamina."

That emphasis is one of the more practical ideas in the conversation. Breath is not presented as a warm-up or a relaxation add-on. It is the resource that determines how long and how well you can play. Michaan's practice also includes a good deal of open-eyed meditation, which she describes as central to how she lives: "it is my life." Her week includes attending other people's classes, which she calls "fun and special and hard," because even someone who knows the material still has to do it, and because a class at 70 is different from a class at 20. Practice, for her, is also social: playing music with her husband, looking after family, cooking, gardening. The line between practice and life is intentionally thin.

What is a gratitude practice doing in a yoga conversation?

Gratitude is not an afterthought in this interview. Michaan says the first thing she does every morning is wake up and feel grateful, and that she goes to bed grateful too. She also keeps an end-of-day practice of noting five things she is grateful for that happened during the day. Harendorf connects this to what Michaan has taught her about the "dish of joy" and the "attitude of gratitude."

Michaan is blunt about what this does: "it really does change your life." Her framing of gratitude is inseparable from direction. In one of the episode's most memorable images, she describes the clock face used in advertising, almost always set to 10 past 10 or 2 past 10, which she reads as a shape that opens upward like a smile. Then she turns to the rearview mirror. If you are driving toward twelve o'clock, you see six in the mirror. The point, as she tells it, is that when you finally reach joy, through the woods and into the house you were looking for, you look back and see everything that carried you there. Gratitude is what you feel when you can see the road behind you. The direction you are facing determines what you will be grateful for.

Why does "measuring up" matter so much in yoga?

Here the conversation moves from feeling to craft, and Michaan's tone shifts from mystic to craftsperson. She insists that results come from following directions: "you have to do everything to get anything." She compares yoga to baking a cake. You follow the recipe because good form eventually functions. The word she keeps returning to is measure: "one of the big tools of yoga is that you're powerful when you measure up."

Her example is the tabletop pose. There is a measure for it, she says, just as a table in a restaurant has a measure. When she teaches it, she tells students to picture antique shopping. You would not buy a table whose legs splay outward, because that table cannot support its load. Looking at alignment this way turns correction into an act of judgment rather than shame. Michaan describes the great gift of good yoga as developing a kind of perception, the ability to see whether a shape measures up, and, when it doesn't, to know what to do about it. She puts the principle plainly: it is not a judgment of the person, but a question of what the form needs.

Her approach to asana reflects that thinking. She describes it as origami for bodies, and she stresses that "good technique works," a claim that makes the study of structure as serious as the study of feeling. In her view, technique is not an obstacle to spontaneity. It is what makes spontaneity possible.

Why are metaphors and geometry central to how she teaches?

Michaan's teaching relies on images that carry more than instructions. She connects the equilateral triangle to the archetype of yoga, describing it as a shape of strength, structure, and stability, and mind, body, and breath. She also points to the Sri Yantra, which she describes as built from nine triangles, and says its vibration is that of virtue and victory. Whether a listener takes the geometry literally or as a teaching device, the idea is consistent: a form that holds itself up is a way of learning to hold yourself up.

The breath gets the same treatment. Michaan says, "the breath is the gas in the tank." She describes how slowing the breath changes the whole system, and she mentions the box breath as "the breath of nature." Later in the conversation, she describes numbers and patterns as a large part of her life and work. She mentions completing a calendar for 2026 and building a 3x3 magic square. Numbers, shapes, and rhythms are for her not separate hobbies but the same kind of order that yoga is trying to reveal in the body.

Where to go from here

The clearest way into this conversation is to take Michaan at her word and start with one metaphor. Spend a week treating your body as the instrument, your breath as the tone, and your mind as the musician. Notice where the tone thins out. Test a simple shape, like the tabletop, against the antique-table question: would this support a load? Keep a short end-of-day list of five things you are grateful for, and notice what that does to the way you look back on your day.

If you want the full conversation, the Better Yoga episode runs close to an hour. Read the transcript alongside it for the metaphors, and pay attention to the moments where Michaan moves from technique to delight. For a deeper look at the method itself, Katonah Yoga's own materials are the next step, and the Katonah Yoga Center's website and Instagram are where the method's current offerings are published.

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Transcript

[0:00] Hey listeners, make sure to check out

[0:02] our twoeek free trial for unlimited

[0:04] yoga, breath work, and Ayurveda on

[0:06] bettery yoga.net.

[0:08] [Music]

[0:28] Hello and welcome episode one of the

[0:32] better yoga podcast. My name is Ki

[0:34] Herendorf. I'm an Ayurvedic practitioner

[0:36] and yoga therapist.

[0:39] And for the first episode, I am honored

[0:42] and privileged to bring to you my

[0:44] teacher Naveen Michan,

[0:48] founder of the Katona Yoga Method.

[0:51] Naveen Michon was born in Egypt in 1954,

[0:54] moved to New York at the age of three

[0:57] and in her early 20s while studying

[0:59] history and comparative religion at

[1:01] Vasser College, she discovered

[1:03] meditation.

[1:05] She understood that there is a function,

[1:07] a formality and a fit to the universe.

[1:10] And that yoga is a tool, a technique, a

[1:15] practice with repetition which gives us

[1:17] the opportunity to participate in life

[1:20] with intelligence and joy.

[1:24] If you know Naveen, you know

[1:27] she is a mystic, a magician, and one of

[1:31] the most generous people on the planet.

[1:36] Naveen started a daily practice in New

[1:38] York City with Alan Baitman, a renowned

[1:40] yoga instructor in the 70s and became

[1:44] fully immersed in what would become her

[1:47] life's work. She began teaching yoga

[1:50] 1980

[1:52] and founded the Katona Yoga Center in

[1:55] Katona

[1:56] in 1986.

[1:58] Naveen, thank you for agreeing to be our

[2:01] first Thank you. That was so nice. I'm

[2:03] so touched. You are so nice. I just

[2:06] Katona yoga has changed the way I

[2:08] practice and teach yoga. It has been the

[2:10] yoga that I teach pretty exclusively for

[2:14] the last 15 years.

[2:17] um proud to be uh considered a senior

[2:20] Katoni yoga teacher and and to use this

[2:23] in the therapy yoga therapy model and

[2:26] modules that I teach in and work with

[2:29] small groups and with clients because

[2:30] it's the yoga that makes people fit

[2:33] themselves. We'll talk a lot about fits

[2:35] and folds and angles as we go on, but I

[2:38] just want to thank you personally for

[2:40] improving my life and the life of so

[2:43] many of my students and clients. I have

[2:45] to say um yoga works.

[2:49] Yoga works and really good yoga really

[2:51] works well. And so you know yoga is is

[2:57] so intelligent and when you learn good

[3:01] techniques like learning how to play

[3:03] music eventually um you have something

[3:07] right. So one of my big metaphors of

[3:09] course is yoga as music because I think

[3:12] the body is the instrument, the mind is

[3:14] a musician and your breath is the spirit

[3:17] moving through that instrument, the

[3:19] tone. So the art really yoga is knowing

[3:21] how to tune your instrument, how to time

[3:24] your instrument, how to have enough

[3:26] breath to play your instrument. And then

[3:28] comes the great pleasure because yoga is

[3:30] magical and it is for magic. And the

[3:32] great pleasure is music soothes you.

[3:35] Music feeds the spirit, right? And we'll

[3:38] play then you can play with others and

[3:40] that is very empowering. So that's why I

[3:43] love doing yoga.

[3:45] Um we're going to ask all of our guests

[3:46] one of the first question is what does

[3:48] your practice look like these days? And

[3:50] I know from previous conversations we

[3:52] have is that the practice evolves over

[3:54] time, right? Depending on the season of

[3:56] your life, the season outside, but for

[3:58] you right now, what is your daily

[4:00] practice? Well, in some way

[4:03] can be anything. Um, it's like, you

[4:06] know, if you're a musician, it's knowing

[4:07] that every day you play your instrument

[4:09] and you play your piano because it gives

[4:10] you joy. So, the first thing I get to

[4:13] say is my practices, my yoga practices

[4:16] give me incredible joy, right? Which is

[4:18] wonderful. You know, one can't ask for

[4:21] more. So, um, I do a big breathing

[4:24] practice, right? because um that is

[4:27] really the most important thing at my

[4:29] time of life is to be able to modulate

[4:31] my breath to regulate my breath to have

[4:34] enough stamina because you get older um

[4:36] it's much more about the stamina so I do

[4:39] a lot of things to build up stamina I

[4:42] breathe I play with friends right I have

[4:45] to say most of my practice is like open

[4:46] meditation right open eye meditation it

[4:50] is my life so I don't really just

[4:53] practice if I talk about yoga practice.

[4:56] Lately, I've been going to people's

[4:57] classes and that is really fun and

[5:00] special and hard because even if you

[5:04] know how to do things, you still have to

[5:05] do it, right? And it's different when I

[5:08] would do a class when I'm 20 than when

[5:11] I'm doing a class when I'm 70, right?

[5:13] But, um, it's doable and that is so much

[5:16] fun. So daily I try to go to a class. I

[5:20] do my own practices at home. And then

[5:23] the rest of my practice is really

[5:25] social, playing with my husband, taking

[5:27] care of my family, cooking, gardening,

[5:31] right? Having a life,

[5:35] right? Yes. And being great, fortunate,

[5:39] and grateful. So I have to say the first

[5:41] thing every morning is I wake up and I'm

[5:42] so grateful, right?

[5:46] I go to bed at night, I'm so grateful.

[5:48] So, you know, yeah, I have a gratitude

[5:51] practice at the end of the day of, you

[5:53] know, five things that I'm grateful for

[5:55] that happened. And, you know, it really

[5:58] does change your life and you taught me

[6:02] about the dishi of joy and then also the

[6:05] attitude of gratitude. So, I don't know

[6:07] if you want to like sum that up or not,

[6:09] but for for those watching, if you look

[6:11] at any ad that has a clock or a watch on

[6:14] it, to the time is always set at 210.

[6:17] Yes. So that dish of choice, right?

[6:20] Exactly. So from 10:00 2:00 is the

[6:23] choice of the day for those items. So

[6:26] when you're in a car, the windshield

[6:27] wipe will wipe from 10 to 2 and 10 to 2

[6:30] and 2 to 10. And it's a 60° angle. So it

[6:35] is the vantage of an equilateral

[6:37] triangle, which is really the archetype

[6:39] of yoga. Strength, structure, stability,

[6:42] mind, body, breath. You're looking at

[6:44] Sri Lantra, you're dealing with nine

[6:46] equilateral triangles because its

[6:49] vibration is really that of

[6:53] virtue, victory, right? The V of love.

[6:56] So there's a lot of magic inherently in

[7:00] the geometry, right? But then there's

[7:02] also the narrative in the story. So one

[7:05] of the narratives I like is if you're

[7:07] driving towards 12:00 and you look out

[7:09] your rearview mirror, you're going to

[7:11] see 6:00. And if you're driving towards

[7:13] one o'clock and you look out your

[7:15] rearview mirror, you're going to see

[7:17] seven o'clock. So there's this game of

[7:20] knowing that wherever you're going, if

[7:22] you look at the rearview mirror, you're

[7:24] going to act as a very specific memory

[7:27] by virtue of the line of direction. So

[7:30] when you're going to your joy and you

[7:32] finally sort of access it like say get

[7:36] out of the woods and see the house

[7:37] you're looking for or you open the oven

[7:40] door and you know the cake is coming out

[7:42] right you'll look out your rearview

[7:44] mirror and be so grateful for everything

[7:45] they got you there.

[7:48] Yes. So I think that is very um powerful

[7:52] to know that you know if you um

[7:55] if

[7:57] you're going the right direction you'll

[7:59] find your gratitude.

[8:01] Yeah. It will help and you'll get where

[8:04] you want to go. It will help. I think

[8:05] you have to do everything to get what

[8:07] you want right. So I'm a firm believer

[8:09] in that you have to do everything to get

[8:11] anything. You know that's why one of the

[8:13] biggest tools of yoga and this is not

[8:17] just Katona yoga but I think Katona is

[8:19] very good at articulating these concepts

[8:23] in in a modern language but one of the

[8:26] big tools of yoga is that you're

[8:29] powerful when you measure up

[8:31] right and that's why you want to bake a

[8:34] cake you follow a recipe you want to

[8:37] make something happen you know follow

[8:39] the directions because eventually

[8:42] good form functions and form is very

[8:45] formal and it measures up and that's

[8:47] when we do asa the first trick is to

[8:49] learn how to measure up you know if you

[8:51] can do like a tabletop pose there is

[8:54] measure just like if you went to a

[8:56] restaurant there is a measure what the

[8:58] table would be

[9:00] right and when I teach table pose I'll

[9:03] say if you're going to go antique

[9:04] shopping you're not going to want to buy

[9:06] a table where the legs are spllaying out

[9:08] this way right so look around and who

[9:11] was that table and what and it's very

[9:12] powerful to measure up. I think the big

[9:15] gift of good yoga is that yoga is

[9:18] designed to develop your cities, right?

[9:20] And uh so a sida is a power plural it's

[9:23] sid s i d hi right but um you know to

[9:29] develop your cities is the goal it is to

[9:32] develop your power perception right so

[9:34] to really see does it measure up and

[9:36] then to know if it doesn't there's

[9:39] things you can do and I think that's

[9:41] incredibly powerful too to realize that

[9:44] it's not a judgment game it is

[9:46] anformational game that oh right if I

[9:50] can do this, I can get to that. So then

[9:54] you start learning how to do what it

[9:56] takes to get what you want. Right? For

[9:59] those listeners, that's like all about

[10:00] the fourth pa or the fourth section in

[10:02] Patanjali yoga sutras deals with all of

[10:04] the the cities, all of the the powers of

[10:07] eventual what you're practicing. I think

[10:09] the big practices

[10:11] um in stories will be sort of very

[10:15] magical but the big practices and the

[10:18] big powers in daily life are also very

[10:21] pragmatic and practical. So one of the

[10:24] greatest cities is knowing how to

[10:26] manipulate time. Knowing how to make it

[10:28] go quickly when it's hard. Knowing how

[10:32] to make it slow when you want it to be

[10:35] slow. So that is a very magical game to

[10:39] know how to affect time and time is

[10:42] really played through the breath. So

[10:44] when you're anxious

[10:46] your breath goes quick and if you have

[10:49] techniques to sort of calm it down well

[10:52] you actually do change the nature of

[10:54] time. So I think it's very powerful. So

[10:57] powerful. So I just want to dial it back

[10:59] a little bit. Can you talk about was

[11:01] there a pivotal moment in your life that

[11:04] led to the development of this

[11:07] methodology of yoga or or your personal

[11:10] yoga journey or what inspired you or

[11:11] what what you saw was lacking? I didn't

[11:14] see anything lacking think much more one

[11:17] day. I mean I always was out for the

[11:19] mystical experience. So I was always

[11:21] looking for how do I have mystical

[11:24] experiences

[11:26] in life and you know the problem if you

[11:28] only have your mystical experiences or

[11:30] if you have your mystical experiences

[11:32] through altered states through plant

[11:34] medicine that eventually that is hard on

[11:37] the body plus when I was studying that

[11:39] wasn't really the options right most of

[11:42] the options were how are you going to

[11:43] have mystical experience and I found

[11:45] yoga right so it was a technique that

[11:48] allowed me to be in presence of the

[11:50] universe and to be part of and to feel

[11:54] that I belonged. Right? I have to say

[11:58] though that one day when I was about 21,

[12:00] I saw a picture of somebody doing

[12:02] nidrasta, right? And yoga was not that

[12:05] yoga's always been big for thousands of

[12:07] years, but you know, it became so

[12:09] mainstream maybe 30 years ago, 40 years

[12:12] ago, but when I first started um there

[12:15] wasn't as much material out except

[12:18] right, it just wasn't. But I saw this

[12:20] picture of this yogi and he was doing

[12:21] nidasa and nidrasana is uh like an

[12:24] upside down turtle right so it's no

[12:27] right Buddha sleep right and the beauty

[12:30] of the pose that the arch of the foot

[12:31] when you do it right fits behind the

[12:33] arch of the neck like a hand in a glove

[12:35] and it is an absolutely beautiful pose

[12:37] because it's all about the measure and

[12:39] the fit and I saw that and I had my

[12:42] epiphany I said bodies are designed the

[12:47] universe is designed you know Birds fit

[12:50] trees and bugs fit flowers and arches of

[12:54] feet fit arches of necks. And that just

[12:58] that just really spoke to me. Uh, one of

[13:01] the metaphors that I heard a long time

[13:04] ago was that Katona yoga makes you fit

[13:06] yourself before you fit other people.

[13:09] And I think that some of the ways in

[13:11] which our culture has gone arry is that

[13:14] we're caring more about fitting others

[13:16] or fitting other things before we goes

[13:18] back to your measuring up and being able

[13:20] to fit ourselves and be well oriented

[13:23] and well organized and wellrounded.

[13:25] Think it is a time game that first you

[13:29] have to fit with others and then if

[13:33] you're lucky having found a way to deal

[13:36] with others then you get that next place

[13:39] which is when you get to learn to fit

[13:40] yourself and that's why generally my

[13:44] yoga is my yoga Tony yoga it's not mine

[13:47] but people have to first fit other yogas

[13:50] they have to learn and try to fit in and

[13:53] then it's like first you have to become

[13:55] literate, you have to go to a classroom,

[13:57] right, and really fit in, right? But

[14:00] then comes the next piece. And that's

[14:03] why I always like the idea that nobody

[14:06] really owns like a technique by only

[14:09] learning one thing. You have to know

[14:11] several different things and put it

[14:13] together so that eventually you start

[14:15] understanding how you can fit yourself.

[14:17] So I think it's a progressive game,

[14:20] right? I think first uh yes you don't

[14:23] ask children to first individuate

[14:27] first you just stick them in the

[14:28] classroom and then you there now is the

[14:30] time to be an individual right but um

[14:33] yes I think everyone has to bring

[14:36] everything to the table right um when I

[14:40] was first learning yoga was much more

[14:41] militant because it was the era of

[14:46] it was that era right and that's why

[14:48] everything has a fashion like things

[14:49] that you were willing to wear in the 60s

[14:52] or 70s, you would be mortified to put on

[14:54] today. Right? So, fashions change, but

[14:57] the fashion of yoga in the 70s and 80s

[15:00] was very militant. It was very rigid. It

[15:03] was very uh

[15:06] soldiers marching, right? That did not

[15:09] really speak to me because of who I am

[15:12] and because my yoga was not learned

[15:15] communally. So, for me, yoga was always

[15:17] a personal practice, right? But

[15:20] eventually I figured out how to play

[15:22] with others by understanding to teach

[15:25] people to be musicians and then play in

[15:27] the orchestra. So when we would do a

[15:29] class, we would conduct the class. You

[15:32] know, it was more to teach people to

[15:35] play together in harmony. So the joy was

[15:39] that each one was playing their

[15:41] instrument, right? And so Katon yoga

[15:44] integrates different aspects of

[15:46] traditional yoga with dowist theory and

[15:49] sacred geometry. So can you talk a

[15:51] little bit about the intersection of

[15:53] these because I know you talk a lot

[15:54] about and even on your calendars which

[15:56] we'll discuss like like things of being

[15:58] like a palist right like you layer

[16:00] things over each other which is why in

[16:03] if you wanted to be certified in katona

[16:05] you have another certification first and

[16:07] this gets something that's that's laid

[16:09] over or third or fourth. Yeah. Yeah. Of

[16:12] course. Right. And it's like I say all

[16:13] the time when a system is smart when a

[16:16] system works you can layer it over

[16:18] another system that works and it'll

[16:21] you'll see the right

[16:24] the first piece of the question is how

[16:25] do I in a sense cross reference and I I

[16:30] have to say that the world is open

[16:31] source and that everyone's doing the

[16:33] same things. So in that sense it's like

[16:37] going I know how to speak English. So if

[16:39] I go into a restaurant that has an

[16:41] English menu, I can read it. I can read

[16:45] it really um intimately and I understand

[16:49] numbers so I know the prices. So there's

[16:52] literacy that I'm starting with. Right?

[16:55] So that literacy isn't all these

[16:59] different types of techniques. So sacred

[17:01] geometry of course is yoga, right? Yoga

[17:04] is sacred geometry. The sacred geometry

[17:07] of classical Hindu yoga is in the

[17:11] mandalas. Right? So yantra yoga is the

[17:15] exact same thing as sacred geometry. But

[17:17] sacred geometry during the time

[17:19] Pythagoras wasn't called sacred

[17:20] geometry. It was called number worship.

[17:24] Right? So there's fashion. I just

[17:27] because in a funny way I just worship

[17:30] numbers. I hunt in everybody's menus to

[17:34] see how they're playing with the same

[17:35] material, right? Because once you can

[17:39] really read a Chinese menu, you're you

[17:41] get to realize, oh, they're offering

[17:43] food because everyone's hungry. Oh, they

[17:46] have prices. Oh, because everyone's

[17:49] paying for everything. So, I think the

[17:52] big game is not to break code. And once

[17:55] you can break code of Ayurveda then

[17:59] you'll see oh that code is written

[18:02] somehow in this culture or that material

[18:05] is written in this cult here. So I tend

[18:08] to be very open source. So that's how I

[18:10] learn because I study comparative

[18:12] religion. So it wasn't that I was

[18:14] tracked in one direction so much. I have

[18:17] my personal background

[18:19] you know spiritual narratives and then I

[18:22] have um community. So, so in a sense you

[18:26] bring to the table everything you have.

[18:28] So that's what I do. I bring me to the

[18:30] table. Then I expect people to take what

[18:32] I give which would be like here are my

[18:34] recipes, right? And eventually they go

[18:37] off and they change them and they keep

[18:40] the ones they really love and then they

[18:42] find out that if they add this

[18:44] ingredient rather than the one that I

[18:46] put in, it tastes even better.

[18:49] Right? So yes, that's how I cross

[18:52] reference everything. And so I because I

[18:55] don't think anything is new. I don't

[18:58] think anybody comes up with anything.

[19:00] It's just that if you have an open mind

[19:02] then information can come through. So I

[19:06] have a fertile imagination.

[19:08] Yes, you do. And a huge part of the

[19:10] practice is the use of metaphors. And

[19:12] this can also go into our conversation

[19:14] of literacy, right? Because once you own

[19:17] a language, you understand the

[19:18] metaphors, right? So in Katona you know

[19:21] you talked about the body as being you

[19:23] know the instrument or using you know

[19:24] the whole music paradigm you also the

[19:28] body is a house so the body is a vehicle

[19:30] right so how do these metaphors do how

[19:32] do you think these metaphors help

[19:34] students deepen their practice and the

[19:37] understanding of the practice everybody

[19:39] comes to the table with something so

[19:42] everyone has a lot of skills

[19:46] right so they might be struggling in

[19:48] some parts of their lives and some place

[19:51] might be very unsatisfying but everybody

[19:53] comes to the table with skills or with

[19:56] something even if it's heartache. So now

[20:00] if you want to teach them something they

[20:01] know nothing about the easiest way in a

[20:05] sense is to connect it to something they

[20:08] understand. So, there was this woman

[20:10] that I was speaking to actually

[20:12] yesterday who's in her 80s and she's

[20:15] getting depressed because it's hard to

[20:17] get old and her body is falling apart

[20:20] and we're speaking because I'm sending

[20:22] her a yoga teacher because it's, you

[20:25] know, she's she needs to and her

[20:27] daughters have asked for years and it's

[20:29] time, right? And we were talking and she

[20:32] asked me or I said something about

[20:34] meditating and she couldn't understand

[20:35] what it meant. How do you do what does

[20:37] that really mean? And she used to be a

[20:40] swimmer, she thinks of herself as a

[20:41] dolphin, right? And we went, well, in

[20:45] the end when she says, "When I do a

[20:47] backstroke and I lie in the water on the

[20:49] back at the ocean with the sun and she

[20:52] knows how to swim, so she's not going to

[20:54] drown because she's measured up. She has

[20:57] good technique. She's it's now second

[21:00] nature for her to feel safe lying in

[21:03] that water with the sun overhead." And

[21:06] she put herself in that state of being.

[21:08] So that metaphor allowed her to enter

[21:11] something that would be scary for her.

[21:13] Like at 80 she doesn't want to start

[21:15] being a yogi. She doesn't really want to

[21:17] do yoga. But she wants to have that

[21:20] experience that she had when she could

[21:24] do a backstroke, right? And transcend

[21:28] being 80 or being 12 or Yeah. So yes,

[21:34] agree with that. So I think metaphors

[21:36] allow people to um find their way in.

[21:41] Yes. And one-third of a practice is

[21:43] mind. So I think when a lot of the yoga

[21:47] came through initially in its militancy,

[21:50] the mind that was being taught was not

[21:53] how to tap into the universal mind. It

[21:56] it was a very don't think mind where I

[22:00] think the big magic of mind is that you

[22:02] can use it and you can open it you know

[22:06] so body dialogue is for the tenacity of

[22:08] being healthy on the earth and spirit

[22:10] dialogue is for the capacity of being

[22:13] able to play well with others but mind's

[22:16] magic is that it can be open so

[22:20] yeah so that's oneird of the practice is

[22:22] to open a mind right yes And that's what

[22:26] makes it magical. I have tremendous

[22:28] respect for um gym and you know when I

[22:33] see you know a lot of the gym postures

[22:35] because I did not grow up in a gym. I

[22:37] did not grow up in a western culture

[22:39] that did sports. I just didn't do things

[22:42] like that until I started doing yoga and

[22:44] then I got good because I'm physically

[22:45] adept but it wasn't I wasn't tracked

[22:48] with title nine or nine 11 10. You're

[22:51] the one that gave girls mandatory

[22:53] sports. That was before my era, right?

[22:57] So, but I have tremendous respect that

[22:59] people go and they want to be physical,

[23:02] they want to feel good, but that next

[23:04] piece of integrating it with your mind

[23:06] and your spirit, I think, you know, it

[23:09] adds magic to the whole thing.

[23:13] This episode of the Better Yoga Podcast

[23:14] is brought to you by our friends at

[23:16] Banyan Botanicals. Use the code Kari 15

[23:18] for 15% off their amazing Ayurvedic

[23:20] products. That's K A R I15. Don't forget

[23:24] to use the link in our show notes,

[23:28] right? And as you famously say, goal of

[23:31] the practice is to not lose your mind

[23:34] while you're in your body.

[23:37] Yoga was never about the body. You know,

[23:40] yogis, first of all, were always fierce.

[23:42] So, the idea was not that yogis were

[23:45] soldiers. yogis were very independent

[23:48] because they're working on mediating

[23:50] their cities, right, and their powers

[23:53] and their breaths. And so there's

[23:55] something that is very fierce in that

[23:57] whole narrative. Yeah. So let's talk

[23:59] about the the spirit aspect because you

[24:01] talk about that. Can you talk about the

[24:03] importance of the breath work in the

[24:04] Katona yoga method and how it's

[24:07] metaphor? The body is the vehicle

[24:10] and the mind is the driver, right? And

[24:14] the breath is the gas in the tank,

[24:17] right? And the air in the tires and the

[24:19] window washer flu and everything that

[24:20] makes it work, right? So, right, once

[24:24] you bring down to that, we can go to any

[24:26] metaphor. You know, it's a house, right?

[24:29] Is the structure, but it's not a home

[24:33] until there's life in it, right? And

[24:35] that also includes turning on the

[24:37] electricity, turning on the heaters,

[24:39] opening up the windows. So the life of

[24:42] anything is predicated on the breath and

[24:45] the beautiful thing about breath is it's

[24:47] autonomic and sympathetic right so you

[24:50] can breathe without paying any attention

[24:52] to it but you can also modulate it right

[24:55] and that is very magical so anybody can

[24:59] change their breath rate it is very hard

[25:01] to change your kidney rate it's very

[25:03] hard to change your heartbeat but

[25:05] breathing you put a paper bag over your

[25:08] your mouth and breathe into it and you

[25:10] can change your breath rate. So yeah,

[25:13] and your emotional state is so

[25:16] predicated on your breathing. So that's

[25:19] that's the background. Then the actual

[25:21] practice itself, when I was very young,

[25:23] I learned lots of different breathing

[25:26] techniques because eventually there

[25:29] there's so many different ways to play

[25:31] the instrument. Bman taught a breath

[25:33] technique that I thought was incredibly

[25:35] intelligent.

[25:36] It's practiced so intelligence. So I

[25:38] want to talk about for a second because

[25:39] this is over 50 years ago. Allan to only

[25:42] one practice, right? And the practice

[25:44] took two hours from beginning to end. So

[25:46] it's very similar to like doing um an

[25:49] astanga practice or bicorn practice is

[25:51] that you had a very set group of

[25:53] postures and I own them because the

[25:57] first practice you did you will like you

[25:59] know put in you and you will never

[26:01] forget it and it was a beautiful

[26:03] practice right and what you did in that

[26:05] practice is you always followed a three

[26:07] three breath count so you inhale for

[26:10] three you hold your breath for three you

[26:12] exhale for three and you did that for

[26:13] two full hours right and So you just ran

[26:16] through the sequence with the breath

[26:17] count like that. And the art of it was

[26:20] as you got better at it, you made the

[26:21] whole game long. So practice could take

[26:24] four hours because all you were doing

[26:26] was lengthening the amount of time you

[26:28] can stay in a pose and the breath count.

[26:31] Um, Ashanga came in, it was designed

[26:34] with a different breath count that you

[26:36] start at two hours and then the goal was

[26:38] once you got good at it, you brought it

[26:39] down to an hour and 20 minutes because

[26:41] you're building a clip, right? So then

[26:44] you start seeing oh you're pacing the

[26:47] breath you're timing with the breath and

[26:50] you're in a sense being the swimmer in

[26:53] the waters of that breath. So that's how

[26:57] I started with those. I knew a lot of

[26:59] big uh Yogi Baja's breathing because

[27:02] Kunalini was big in the 60s and so you

[27:06] know it was available for us in the 60s

[27:08] and the 70s and the 80s to learn that

[27:10] material and he had some beautiful

[27:12] techniques right um the practice itself

[27:15] the mind was not the mind that I uh

[27:18] would build a narrative thread over so

[27:20] you know that wasn't going to be the

[27:22] narrative I play but some of those

[27:24] techniques are amazing so I do a lot of

[27:28] techniques that are designed to tune an

[27:31] instrument. They're all breathing

[27:32] practice, right? To soothe oneself to

[27:36] breathe like the planet. Yeah. And then

[27:39] I codify them. I put them all down like

[27:41] a little recipe book so that eventually

[27:44] they give you even more techniques like

[27:49] um I do one breathing technique. It's a

[27:51] very typical Katona technique that we

[27:52] call the breath of the season where you

[27:55] inhale for spring, you hold for summer,

[27:56] you exhale for autumn, and then you hold

[27:59] your breath empty for winter. So, you

[28:01] know, those are the four parts of the

[28:02] breath. Well, I first found that breath

[28:06] um in a book that Rudolph Steiner wrote,

[28:09] right? And he got that breath from the

[28:14] right. So, eventually everybody's, you

[28:16] know, you find a resume, right? Oh, this

[28:17] recipe works for our time or this recipe

[28:20] is available or you know this is the

[28:23] season for it. So yeah. Yeah. And you

[28:27] know you would open up any breath app or

[28:29] meditation app and it would box but they

[28:31] call it a box breath

[28:33] the site of that when you're inhaling

[28:37] you're potentiating. When you're holding

[28:39] your breath you're ripening. When you're

[28:41] exhaling you're harvesting, right? And

[28:44] then when you're empty, you're getting

[28:47] insight. So yes, that

[28:51] bumped it up into the mind. Absolutely.

[28:55] And and just that and just for you

[28:57] listeners or watchers, it's that is the

[29:00] difference of playing the metaphor,

[29:03] engaging the imagination and threading

[29:05] the mind, making that the narrative

[29:07] thread through the whole practice. So

[29:09] it's not like let's do a box breath,

[29:10] inhale, pause, exhale, pause. It's what

[29:13] happens is one forgets that the mystical

[29:15] is incredibly practical. So why not be

[29:18] odd with the most practical? Yes. Yeah.

[29:23] And from the poncha kosha model which is

[29:25] what yoga therapy is really based on.

[29:27] It's the breath that's the bridge

[29:29] between the body and the mind. So once

[29:32] you begin to play that right like you've

[29:34] said you learn how to soo yourself.

[29:36] Right. Right. And you play with time

[29:40] just like the yogis would say you were

[29:42] born with a certain number of breaths.

[29:43] So when you can slow the breath down it

[29:46] becomes your longevity practice. And now

[29:49] everything is proven all the ancient

[29:51] what the rishies saw and felt and knew

[29:55] in their meditation. Science is now

[29:57] proving again. Do you um in a sense copy

[30:01] the recipes? Because you're never going

[30:03] to copy it today the way they were

[30:06] written a thousand years ago,

[30:08] right? In the same way that today you

[30:10] wouldn't make a donut, right, without

[30:14] the oven. I you know, you wouldn't copy,

[30:17] you have different utensils, different

[30:19] ingredients, different, you know, sort

[30:22] of boundaries, but you're looking for

[30:24] the same product to come out. So it is

[30:28] really about knowing how to adjust

[30:29] recipes so that they're available today

[30:32] because otherwise they just become

[30:34] precious. Yes. I use all the dishes I'm

[30:37] not supposed to dishes you never use.

[30:38] Right. Yes. That's right. Use all your

[30:41] china

[30:43] dishes. Right. They all get tarnished

[30:44] because you know why not? Yeah. Yeah.

[30:49] Yeah. When um when we do our spring and

[30:52] fall cleanse, we tell our participants

[30:54] like check out the good china because

[30:56] you're eating the same thing three meals

[30:58] a day for five days or seven days. Like

[31:00] change it up. Use the beautiful use the

[31:04] the things make it your own that way

[31:07] variety since the diet is very Yes. I

[31:09] Right. Yes. Right. This is why it's

[31:14] powerful to be healthy because I know

[31:17] when I'm well I can be creative. I don't

[31:19] when I'm well, I can find my way out. I

[31:22] can think of using dishes for bland

[31:26] food, right? When I'm not well, I don't

[31:29] think well. So, it's a hard game which

[31:33] one comes first. And that's why probably

[31:35] sometimes one and sometimes the other.

[31:37] And so, there's this thing of, you know,

[31:41] self-reflection alone, then working with

[31:43] others. And that's why spiritual

[31:45] narratives are communal.

[31:48] You know, when you go very deep, you can

[31:51] be very soulful. That's personal. But to

[31:53] build spirit is really a communal

[31:56] narrative, right? So when I think of the

[32:00] three floors of the body, I think the

[32:01] bottom floor is the floor of like um

[32:04] flora and fauna and you know agriculture

[32:06] and toil and earth and embodiment. The

[32:10] second floor which is the floor of

[32:11] spirit and handling and the breath is

[32:14] the playing field right so that's why

[32:17] you have to know there's

[32:19] sort of like the the field of toil and

[32:22] there's a playing field and then there's

[32:24] the mind field and yes well I think

[32:27] today the world is open source so one

[32:30] can access so much in the mind field

[32:33] then one has to all know how to play and

[32:35] one also has to know how to work and you

[32:37] put all together you have a good chance

[32:38] that you all lose your mind. Yeah. So,

[32:41] we all work for that. So, you know, it

[32:43] has to work in so many different

[32:45] modalities, but the goal eventually is

[32:48] to have it all measure up so that you

[32:51] can have a good life. That's the goal.

[32:54] Yeah. So, I have a thought on that. I'm

[32:56] going to say it because I've been

[32:57] thinking about this a lot. In um in

[33:00] Ayurvedic stuff and in Sanskrit, they

[33:02] talk about samadi, right? And samandi is

[33:05] generally um translated as bliss right

[33:10] joy bliss I think right but

[33:13] another translation of samadi is

[33:16] insumation because it's a math game and

[33:20] it's like the joy ride you get the joy

[33:22] ride when it all adds up right so to get

[33:26] to the state of samati um there's a lot

[33:30] of conditions

[33:32] you know But if you can do like if you

[33:35] can put the gas in the tank and the air

[33:36] in the tire and the window washer fluid

[33:38] which is really all movement of the

[33:40] breath. If you can maintain the vehicle

[33:42] if you know where you want to go if you

[33:43] can read a map well and then if you put

[33:45] all these things together you you should

[33:48] uh be able to achieve that state of

[33:50] being. So that's our goal. That's our

[33:53] goal. And you were talking about when we

[33:55] were kind of going back and forth and

[33:58] you had said you know we we practice for

[34:02] health. We practice so we can be

[34:04] well-rounded, so we're resilient. It's

[34:06] not that we never get sick, but that we

[34:07] bounce back quicker with less residual

[34:10] effects, right? And so you're always say

[34:12] like yoga is a tool. And I know from

[34:15] having worked with people that are

[34:17] unwell or going through health

[34:18] challenges, it's hard to remember the

[34:22] tools when you're sick, right? It's hard

[34:24] to remember to do the remedies. It's

[34:26] hard to get off out of the bed or off

[34:28] the couch, right? To remember to do the

[34:30] things. And so the more we can be adept

[34:32] at a daily practice and doing it, we

[34:35] know what a hammer is for and when we

[34:38] need to use it. We know what a

[34:39] screwdriver is for. So you don't take a

[34:41] hammer when you need a screwdriver,

[34:42] right? When one is well, that is a very

[34:46] important time to do all your rituals,

[34:49] right? So that you build those habits

[34:51] in. So it's when you're well, you should

[34:53] go and wash your face with cold water.

[34:55] It's when you're well, you should brush

[34:57] your teeth as a lefty if you're a

[34:59] righty. It's when you're well, you

[35:01] should do the thing that really, you

[35:04] know, is serving you because you're

[35:05] already well. And that way when you're

[35:07] not well, they're they're there. They're

[35:11] they're still maybe familiar enough as

[35:14] opposed to thinking that that's when you

[35:16] should do things when you're not well to

[35:17] get well,

[35:19] right? So, you should do all these

[35:20] things, right? Yes. Thank you. You got

[35:23] to you've got to put the gas in the tank

[35:25] before you've got to build your ojas,

[35:28] which is the immunity, right? Before so

[35:31] you have that storehouse. It's nice for

[35:33] these people to eventually really be

[35:36] able to understand that they know what

[35:39] it feels like when there's no gas in the

[35:40] tank and that they're panicked on the

[35:43] highway and they should have gotten gas,

[35:45] but they're right. They blew it. And to

[35:48] understand that that is the sensation of

[35:51] insulin leaking, right? Because that's

[35:54] how a westerner would talk about and

[35:56] then avuric practitioner would have

[35:59] different language for but it's the same

[36:01] thing. It's the worry, right? That

[36:04] eventually leaks through the chemistry

[36:07] and then to know what you feel like when

[36:08] you put gas in the tank. It's all gone.

[36:11] So that's why you need the metaphor to

[36:13] change someone's mind

[36:16] because you know, right? because they

[36:18] already have cars, so they know that.

[36:20] And that goes back to the metaphysical,

[36:22] right? Because when you're talking about

[36:23] that, when you're talking about the

[36:24] insulin leaking, we're talking about

[36:26] it's really you're talking about the

[36:27] chakras and the endocrine system. And

[36:29] this is why I love numbers. I'm one of

[36:32] those number worshippers, right? Because

[36:35] um language is confining and language

[36:39] can be misconstrued and everybody needs

[36:42] good language, but also everybody

[36:44] misunderstands each other. Right. Yeah,

[36:47] because language is there's so much in

[36:50] it. Can be so subjective. But numbers

[36:54] numbers are just they're so joyful

[36:56] because they just don't lie, right? They

[36:59] they they just they they just don't lie,

[37:01] right? And and so because of that,

[37:03] numbers is a very big piece of the game,

[37:06] right? One of the best ways to sue

[37:08] somebody in breath work is to have a

[37:10] number count,

[37:12] right? because that we have a beginning,

[37:13] a middle and an end and your mind can go

[37:15] up in space and so now it's part of the

[37:18] you know and it is a training game but

[37:21] it makes you say to know it measures up

[37:23] and it adds up so numbers I love the

[37:26] whole concept of knowing how to add up

[37:29] knowing how to measure up knowing how to

[37:31] play with numbers so that's a very big

[37:33] piece yes yes measuring up is sami back

[37:36] to samadei right in Buddhism it's sama

[37:39] it means in summation so the noble Well,

[37:42] truth is not that they're right or

[37:44] wrong. It's that they have to add up.

[37:47] So, you can't be really good here and

[37:49] bad there because then

[37:53] the wheel doesn't roll, right? That goes

[37:56] back to like center and circumference.

[37:58] And so, a big part of your a big part of

[38:00] the practice and what I one of the

[38:02] things that I love about it is the

[38:03] structure and the balance, right? And so

[38:06] in terms of like when a structure is

[38:08] well proportioned, it's balanced and

[38:10] when joint our body, our house or our

[38:12] joints are well structured, prana flows

[38:15] all the way around. My gosh, we haven't

[38:16] said that in space. Right. So people

[38:19] come to me with the shoulder pain

[38:20] really.

[38:23] I thought that that's right. That's why

[38:25] you didn't butcher. There's no pain in

[38:27] space. That's right. And then so that's

[38:30] this is why I just want to talk about

[38:31] how the practice again because this is

[38:34] why

[38:36] this is where this methodology extends

[38:39] out into your whole life

[38:41] because it makes you measure up again.

[38:43] So we can go back to the summation part

[38:45] of it. We can go back to the angles and

[38:48] and you know if you fit yourself on the

[38:50] mat you're going to fit out there in

[38:52] society. You're going to your house will

[38:54] be clean. If you put shoes on that fit

[38:57] and are really comfortable all day,

[39:00] you're going to have a better day. Cuz

[39:03] you walk to the store and the floor is

[39:05] good, right? The store is good. Your

[39:09] feet are good. So that's why, you know,

[39:12] you wear the right thing, it serves you.

[39:16] You put the gas in the tank all day, you

[39:17] can drive that car. Yes. Yes. It's all

[39:20] fit and measure and right. Yes. I'm very

[39:24] invested in bodies as being formed that

[39:27] are formal and can be informed and

[39:30] conformed and transformed and reformed

[39:32] and you know initially when we're

[39:34] teaching ASA that's the dialogue it's

[39:37] the form game that you can you can

[39:40] manipulate form right so that's when I

[39:43] learned to play it as origami I like to

[39:46] think of asa as origami for bodies and

[39:49] origami is asa for paper right and you

[39:52] want to make a up. There is a technique,

[39:55] right? And if you start with a square

[39:57] and you know how to fold the corners

[39:58] properly, the cup should hold water. And

[40:00] if it doesn't, it doesn't mean you

[40:03] didn't make the effort.

[40:05] It doesn't mean that you were good. It

[40:08] means none of that. It means that

[40:10] somewhere you didn't know something or

[40:13] you missed something or

[40:16] you spaced out when you right. So the

[40:19] beauty of papers you unfold it and you

[40:21] see because the form the habits are in

[40:23] there right this is why good body read

[40:26] is not psychological it is it is really

[40:31] a generous sort of like self-reflection

[40:33] through other having you know right

[40:37] seeing it in the round right oh this is

[40:40] how you do the pose this will give you a

[40:42] better fit as I said all yoga work it's

[40:44] magical all good technique works so and

[40:47] And there's technique that isn't so

[40:49] good, but it'll still work. Like a bad

[40:52] cookie is still good when you love

[40:53] cookies and you're hungry, but a good

[40:56] cookie is even better. But

[41:00] you know, that's it. And it makes the

[41:02] little kid who comes to visit is even

[41:04] better. And that's why you always, you

[41:06] know, the goal is to win. I'm very

[41:08] winning oriented. I don't do things to

[41:11] lose,

[41:13] right? So, you know, I really go for if

[41:17] I'm going to bake a cake, I want to bake

[41:18] a cake that tastes great. If I bake a

[41:22] cake that tastes great, then I want to

[41:23] invite friends over to eat it with me.

[41:26] Yeah. It's like, why not win?

[41:29] So, how to get there when you're not

[41:31] well? Part of it is you need others. So,

[41:34] somebody else has to come over and

[41:37] bake the cake for you or with you so

[41:39] that the house smells good. Sometimes

[41:41] you need other people to clean your

[41:42] house for you. Yes. And that's Yes.

[41:45] That's the community part. That's the

[41:47] part of generosity of spirit that when

[41:51] you're healthy, you can and then you can

[41:53] help somebody that they can't do it. You

[41:55] can help someone else, right? Yeah.

[41:58] Absolutely. That's the real the real SA.

[42:01] What's one part or one idea, one

[42:04] practice from Katona Yoga that you hope

[42:05] will be remembered for generations?

[42:08] Okay. So, so first I'll start with the

[42:10] slogan that I just love which is there's

[42:12] no such thing as bad weather just

[42:14] inappropriate year which has been a very

[42:17] big slogan for the last 40 50 years of

[42:20] the project because I think it was one

[42:22] of those mountaineering things from

[42:24] Patagonia

[42:26] actually I think it's a Steiner thing

[42:28] too maybe Patagonia took it from you see

[42:30] everybody everybody knows right

[42:34] right yes it was like a Scandinavian so

[42:37] I say that where they need it. It brings

[42:39] me to that the biggest piece of my yoga

[42:41] is the idea of self- responsibility,

[42:44] right? Which is why in that slogan,

[42:47] you're really being told be responsible

[42:49] with your gear so that when it's

[42:51] raining, if you have the right gear,

[42:52] you're safe. If you're in the car and

[42:54] you put the gas in the tank, you'll be

[42:56] fine. Right? So that idea of being

[43:00] self-responsible

[43:01] and I think that is the goal of yoga is

[43:03] to teach you how to catch your breath,

[43:06] how to organize your mind, how to help

[43:10] your body when it's in pain. So there's

[43:13] this very great thing that to me it's

[43:16] all about learning to be

[43:18] self-responsible. So I hope that's the

[43:20] piece of because it's not about style.

[43:25] It's really about the goal, right? So

[43:29] that's right because I don't think

[43:31] that's I'm trying to think, well, what

[43:33] is the goal of some of these other types

[43:34] of yoga, right? I don't think they're

[43:37] really not off in my head where I think

[43:39] that that's the takeaway I get from

[43:41] thinking about certain things. But

[43:43] that's what I like that. Oh, it it

[43:45] teaches people to be self-responsible

[43:46] and well.

[43:48] I mean it goes back to the yamas and the

[43:50] ninyama. Right. Yes. Right. And the

[43:52] communal code of ethics because Right.

[43:55] Right. Yes. And Yes. So I'm very be able

[43:58] like the ten commandments. So young I

[44:01] love the ten commandments which is why I

[44:03] became a religion major because I'm you

[44:05] know yes it's very innocent

[44:09] right. So yes this true love of the

[44:12] universe and God and that you know it

[44:15] works. So I am very pancentric and pans

[44:18] psychic. I think the universe is alive

[44:21] and intelligent and that um you know the

[44:24] organized religions that especially in

[44:26] the west are very homosentric. people

[44:29] like Hinduism and Darism because they

[44:32] are more pancentric but they're

[44:33] pancentric within their cultural

[44:36] boundaries

[44:38] right so being more western I tend to be

[44:41] pancentric which um in that open source

[44:45] narrative but you know it's it's the

[44:48] undercurrent in all of our

[44:51] sort of civilizations that people know

[44:53] the planet is alive that everything's

[44:55] intelligent that it's not just about

[44:57] humanity

[44:59] Right. So I wanted to participate well

[45:01] outside right with greater planet with

[45:04] the personal planet and yeah. Oh yeah.

[45:07] Can you talk about great nature and

[45:08] personal nature? This comes out of

[45:10] classic maidan which is classic Chinese

[45:12] theory and I only say that because

[45:16] that's where it's so well articulated

[45:19] just like Hindus articulate yoga so well

[45:23] right the dowists articulate naan which

[45:26] is internal alchemy so well how to do

[45:30] that internal transformation so in the

[45:32] naidan there are two types of virtues

[45:34] two visions two great visions that

[45:38] that uh

[45:41] everything revolves around the first

[45:43] vision is that you are part of you are

[45:45] part of the greater whole just like you

[45:47] are a fruit on the tree right and you

[45:50] belong to great nature right so you

[45:53] don't make yourself grow you grow

[45:54] because you are part of right you don't

[45:56] breed because you make yourself breathe

[45:58] you breathe because you are part of

[46:01] right and you know what is greater the

[46:03] super organism around us will be our

[46:05] planet so we are part of our planet so

[46:08] in Chinese the Tai tree means the stem

[46:10] of a cherry because if you think of you

[46:13] know your planet is the tree right you

[46:16] are a cherry on that tree so you're

[46:19] fruit of this planet so first you are

[46:21] part of so the first great meditation is

[46:24] always to open your mind so that you are

[46:25] fed by great nature right because it's

[46:28] like an inverted tree and the roots are

[46:30] fed from up there right the second great

[46:33] virtue is known as inferior virtue and

[46:36] that is self-ultivation that is knowing

[46:39] yourself unto yourself. You're own unto

[46:41] yourself. So these are the two great

[46:43] things. You're a part of and you're

[46:45] separate from right you belong to the

[46:48] greater whole but right you're separate

[46:51] from everything else and you belong to

[46:52] yourself. So these are the two great

[46:54] visions right and the goal of course is

[46:57] to mediate them right in one hand to

[47:00] deal with the fact that you're part of

[47:01] the greater whole but you're also by

[47:04] yourself but also that second vision

[47:07] involved with that which is not only are

[47:09] you mediating between the two visions

[47:11] but each vision reconciles itself with

[47:14] the other. So you can see yourself by

[47:17] reflection right in the greater or in

[47:20] the smaller. So these are the two great

[47:22] things we play with, right? Or at least

[47:25] I play with. I know I'm part of when I

[47:27] start my meditations. I like to start by

[47:30] making myself available and opening

[47:31] myself up and letting the grace of the

[47:34] universe rain down. I know that when I

[47:36] think of grace as rain, I know that

[47:39] water rain is freely descending, but I

[47:42] have now to channel it. So that's the

[47:46] art. I channel the grace and the grace

[47:48] is that I am part of something that

[47:50] allows me to be. The second pie is my

[47:52] practice. I start from the bottom up and

[47:55] that's when I do self-ultivation. So

[47:57] that's the idea that now I'm an

[47:59] instrument of my own and it's out of

[48:01] tune and it's my job to learn how to

[48:03] tune it or I'm a car or I have a car and

[48:08] first when it came from the plant it was

[48:09] fully loaded and now it's out of gas and

[48:11] it's my job to learn how to take care of

[48:13] it. So self- cultivation belongs to that

[48:18] second vision of virtue that you are

[48:20] whole into yourself. How you going to

[48:22] feed yourself? How are you going to take

[48:25] care of yourself? How are you going to

[48:27] liberate yourself? Then um and this how

[48:30] I play my breathing practices because my

[48:33] practices are designed on on these

[48:34] principles. So I always start by asking

[48:37] for the grace in the universe and then

[48:39] I'm play with my internal fire to make

[48:41] my effort and then I have my two great

[48:43] polarities of grace and effort. And the

[48:45] third piece of practice is really

[48:47] putting together and playing in harmony.

[48:49] And that's the idea of knowing that the

[48:51] breaths my personal breaths rather than

[48:53] a box breath it's the breath of nature

[48:56] right instead of uh just ga breath of in

[48:58] and out it's the oceanic breath tide

[49:01] moving in tide moving out so that

[49:03] eventually you play in harmony with

[49:05] personal nature and great nature because

[49:07] everything has every plant right

[49:12] participates in great nature and

[49:13] personal nature so yeah so that's part

[49:17] of that yeah I mean it threads back to

[49:19] like fitting yourself or fitting someone

[49:21] else originally like great nature,

[49:23] right? Fitting someone else or belonging

[49:25] to something else bigger and then that

[49:27] personal responsibility and fitting

[49:29] yourself. These are going to be, you

[49:31] know, that big math game of two, right?

[49:34] But the big magic is in the

[49:36] reconciliation or in the contact between

[49:39] the personal universal, you know, being

[49:42] uh an individual but also being part of,

[49:46] right? And so yes, it's all about

[49:48] tapping into both of those things and

[49:51] then knowing that when they make

[49:52] contact, it moves currency, right? And

[49:56] that's that's a huge game that all

[49:59] Chinese techniques are about moving chi

[50:02] all of you know I except it's going to

[50:05] be about prana, right? And really in the

[50:08] western narrative it's panoya and poya

[50:11] is breath and means spirit. So when

[50:14] you're pneumatic, you're playing with

[50:15] your lungs, right? And right. Yes. The

[50:19] whole thing is how to bridge the first

[50:23] and the great. And as you said, the

[50:24] breath becomes that bridge. Yeah. Right.

[50:29] Um, what are you obsessed with these

[50:31] days? So, so generally I'm very careful

[50:34] like I So what I I build calendars. It's

[50:38] one of my obsessions,

[50:40] right? And uh I probably built about 10

[50:42] calendars and then I took two years off.

[50:44] I did not build a calendar last year and

[50:46] I did not build a calendar for 2025 but

[50:49] I just completed a calendar for 2026.

[50:52] Right? And so first I get very focused

[50:55] and very obsessed when I do these things

[50:56] because I'm obsessive and I'm focused

[51:00] and I'd like to complete things. So I

[51:02] like beginning little end, right? So um

[51:05] calendars I build calendars because I

[51:08] think calendars are cannons of personal

[51:09] religion. when you belong to a religion

[51:12] the way you know is that you follow

[51:14] their calendar right so uh if you show

[51:18] up for their holidays you know that in a

[51:20] sense you belong to that community but

[51:22] personal religion is personal time

[51:24] management

[51:26] how do you spend your time you know

[51:28] where are you when right so calendars

[51:32] are canon personal religion it allows

[51:34] you to really see how you spend your

[51:37] time right and also how you want to

[51:40] spend your time and if you follow

[51:41] through. So, it's one of my great

[51:43] obsessions. I just completed my

[51:45] calendar, right? It will go to print

[51:49] like in April, May, and then we'll start

[51:51] moving it out in September. So, it's a

[51:52] year away, but it was a very it was a

[51:55] very big plan. We'll have you back.

[51:56] We'll have you back when I'm very

[51:57] focused on it. So, there's that. put in

[52:00] the calendar and this is why it's part

[52:01] of the obsession. I spent probably

[52:05] I would say a good 15 years really

[52:08] learning magic squares especially the

[52:11] 3x3 magic square which is it's used in

[52:14] fenue it's used as a talisman in the

[52:18] west and um in classical Ayurvedic

[52:22] material it's called the kubara column

[52:24] right it is like uh you know the they're

[52:27] codes for magical spells right and they

[52:31] have recipes in

[52:32] So I I spent a lot of time playing with

[52:34] these magic squares, right? And the

[52:36] first I played with is called the low

[52:38] shoe. It's a 3x3 magic square. It's a

[52:40] tic-tac-toe board and it teaches you how

[52:42] to divide space. And I really learned

[52:44] mapping and geography, right? And then I

[52:47] discovered another code which is called

[52:49] the HOU. And the HOU is all about

[52:52] fluency, right? So I've been very

[52:56] obsessive about besides numbers learning

[52:58] how to break these codes. So the code of

[53:01] trinity which is held in that initial

[53:04] magic square and this one that I'm

[53:06] playing with it's the code that brings

[53:08] you into center through reconciliation.

[53:11] So I've been very obsessed with breaking

[53:14] these codes. Outside of that I'm

[53:17] obsessed with gardening and making

[53:19] teepeees. I make a lot of teepee. Her

[53:22] her Yeah. And they're her garden and her

[53:25] teepeees are fantastic.

[53:29] And then I'm obsessed with my

[53:30] grandchildren because now I have

[53:32] grandchildren. I have six of them. It's

[53:33] shocking.

[53:35] It's just shocking. Very grateful for

[53:37] everything. And you're the testament for

[53:41] staying well adjusted, well oriented,

[53:43] and well organized so you can enjoy

[53:45] those six ch grand grandchildren and the

[53:47] gardens and playing with your friends.

[53:49] It's very important if you're going to

[53:51] teach that um in a sense you role model,

[53:56] right? and it's inspiring. So, you know,

[53:59] if I'm a baker and after 40 years, I

[54:01] don't bake good cakes. It's not okay,

[54:05] right? So, I have been doing yoga

[54:08] consistently for 50 years. If my

[54:10] practice doesn't work, then it's not a

[54:13] good practice,

[54:15] right? We always say if you're bitter,

[54:18] change your technique.

[54:20] It's just not working for you. Right?

[54:22] And three different people can be

[54:24] playing with the same recipe, but it's

[54:26] not just the recipe. It's about them

[54:28] because they have to measure. They have

[54:30] to calibrate temperature. They have to,

[54:33] you know, in the end the recipe is just

[54:36] one part of the of the product. So I

[54:40] hope Gone has very good recipes, right?

[54:43] But the rest of it is really, you know,

[54:47] the individual, which is why people

[54:50] should be very proud of themselves when

[54:51] they make good cakes. They should be

[54:54] celebratory when they follow through.

[54:58] We'll link to everything in the show

[54:59] notes. Um, how can people find you? I'm

[55:02] very easy. I'm very findable, right? I

[55:05] really enjoy people. I think my great

[55:07] strength is that I have a very open

[55:09] mind. And my other great strength is

[55:11] that I have tremendous tenacity. I'm

[55:13] very stable and I really have spent my

[55:15] life learning to be confident and play

[55:17] with people, right? And now I really can

[55:20] I play well with people. I like playing

[55:22] with people. I'm very impressed when I

[55:25] see musicians come in and they know how

[55:26] to play their instruments. They don't

[55:28] have to be the best, but you know,

[55:30] people are talented. And then there's

[55:32] nothing more fun than being part of the

[55:34] orchestra. That's why I like being in

[55:36] the room now as a student, right? It's

[55:40] tricky because, you know, it's a whole

[55:43] different thing, right? But it's it's a

[55:46] whole different thing. It's a whole

[55:47] different thing. And I'm sure the

[55:49] teachers are nervous having you in their

[55:51] class,

[55:52] right? I really I pay attention. I do

[55:55] exactly what they tell me. And then I

[55:57] have to deal like everyone else. Now, 40

[55:59] years ago, if they ask me to do a

[56:01] handstand in Lotus, it's nothing. But

[56:04] today I would just I don't think I'm

[56:06] gonna do that today. Right. So you know

[56:08] there are living I'm gonna watch

[56:13] Thank you so much. I want to ask our the

[56:16] question we're going to ask everyone is

[56:18] this wasn't your life work. What else

[56:20] could you see yourself doing? What other

[56:24] passion would have taken you down the

[56:26] same depth?

[56:28] I probably would have been a scholar,

[56:31] right? And I think it would really be in

[56:33] academia because um I I have a huge

[56:38] appetite to learn things and then as I

[56:42] said I really I like minds

[56:46] you know I like minds and so so when

[56:48] people are interested in learning

[56:50] something or interested in teaching me

[56:51] something I I'm just so happy that's how

[56:54] I want to spend my time. I like to read

[56:58] a lot of myth. I like to read a lot of

[56:59] fairy tale. I'm just going to add that

[57:01] for people that if you know if you're

[57:03] having a hard time in life, you don't

[57:04] know what to do with yourself, read

[57:06] myth, read fairy tale because they're

[57:08] your great archetypes, right? And

[57:11] they're stories, but then you can find

[57:13] your stories in them, right? So, I like

[57:16] the fact that the universe is so smart.

[57:18] So, I think my life work would be

[57:21] anything that allows me to play well and

[57:25] be smart. Thank you. Well, you are a

[57:27] scholar and so

[57:31] Thank you.

[57:33] Amazing. Right. Thank you, Naveen. Thank

[57:36] you. And um thank you everyone for

[57:38] listening. Yes. Like, subscribe, follow

[57:41] us, and I'll join you again soon. And

[57:42] have a beautiful day.

[57:45] We hope you enjoyed today's show. Don't

[57:47] forget to check out our twoe free trial

[57:49] for unlimited yoga, breath work, and

[57:51] Ayurveda on better yoga.net.

Kari Harendorf
ArtistKari Harendorf

Watch more from Kari Harendorf on YouTube.

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Katonah-yogaNevine-michaanYoga-as-musicBreath-workMeasure-up-alignment

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Michaan says the body is the instrument, the mind is the musician, and the breath is the spirit moving through the instrument to produce tone. Like learning an instrument, yoga begins with tuning, timing, and having enough breath to play. The reward is the pleasure of music that soothes and feeds the spirit.
Katonah Yoga is a method founded by Nevine Michaan, who started teaching yoga in 1980 and founded the Katonah Yoga Center in Katonah in 1986. In the Better Yoga podcast conversation, host Kari Harendorf describes it as the yoga that makes people fit themselves, and says she uses it in yoga therapy work.
Michaan argues that good form has a measure, much like a well-built table has proportions that let it hold weight. She uses the tabletop pose as an example and asks students to imagine an antique table with splayed legs, which would not be stable. The goal is to develop the perception to see whether a shape measures up and to know what to change if it doesn't.
Michaan says that at her stage of life, the priority is to modulate and regulate the breath and build stamina, because as you get older the practice becomes more about stamina. She describes her large breathing practice as the most important element of her current routine.
Michaan says she wakes up grateful and goes to bed grateful, and keeps an end-of-day practice of noting five things she is grateful for that happened. She says this practice can really change your life. Starting with a simple evening list of five items is the practice she describes.
Michaan says that if you drive toward twelve o'clock, your rearview mirror shows six, and if you drive toward one o'clock, it shows seven. Applied to practice, when you reach your joy, you look back and feel gratitude for everything that brought you there. Your direction determines what you will be grateful for.
The first portion of the episode, covered here, introduces the method's core metaphors, the emphasis on breath and gratitude, and the discussion of measuring up in form. The full conversation runs close to an hour and extends into topics such as numbers, geometry, and time management, which the video description also highlights.

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