Transcript
[0:00] Here's the diabolical thing. The risk of
[0:02] dying early if you have bright nights
[0:04] goes up immensely. There have been a lot
[0:06] of studies on people after 6 p.m. on
[0:09] devices getting artificial LED exposure.
[0:11] They live shorter lives. Cancer rates go
[0:13] [music] up. They're metabolically
[0:14] unhealthy. But here's the really scary
[0:16] thing. We have a generation of kids that
[0:19] are metabolically sick. [music] They
[0:20] cling to their iPads. They're on
[0:22] devices. But the problem is most things
[0:24] are designed to make people do [music]
[0:25] less of what's good for them. And we
[0:27] don't talk about this enough. And
[0:28] Andrew, you're one of the most trusted
[0:30] voices in health today. And we've waited
[0:32] many, many years for this protocols, an
[0:35] operating manual for the human body.
[0:37] These 10 protocols are well established.
[0:39] They're the ones that are going to move
[0:40] the needle the most in terms of one's
[0:42] mental health, physical health, and
[0:44] performance. Okay, so let's get into it.
[0:45] So protocol number one, you want [music]
[0:47] to get sunlight because exposure each
[0:48] day to the skin, increases testosterone
[0:50] and estrogen in both women and men, and
[0:52] is important for libido. [music]
[0:54] And then the second, and this is really
[0:55] key, is to reduce stress fast. And I'll
[0:57] explain how to do that in a moment. And
[0:58] then number three, working out with
[1:00] weights for 45 minutes, taking your sets
[1:01] near to failure. It will triple or
[1:03] quadruple your cortisol levels. But a
[1:05] lot of people have been told, don't
[1:06] spike your cortisol. It's the stress
[1:07] hormone, but it's a preparation hormone.
[1:09] You're preparing for adversity, but also
[1:11] great things. The next thing, and this
[1:13] is one of the most valuable skills. If
[1:14] you do it for 5 minutes per day, you
[1:16] will experience a significant
[1:17] improvement in mental and physical
[1:18] health. And then sleeping on your side,
[1:20] very important for [music] offsetting
[1:22] dementia, getting rid of bags under your
[1:23] eyes. But Stephen, the number one thing
[1:26] that you need to know about is the
[1:27] moment I started, my life got so much
[1:29] better [music] and I really started to
[1:31] see what I could only describe as
[1:33] miracles. Andrew, I have this
[1:34] outstanding question that I have to ask
[1:35] you. You don't really talk in depth
[1:37] about supplements. I Oh, I do. I go ham.
[1:39] >> So, you can only do five for the rest
[1:40] [music] of your life.
[1:41] >> Oh gosh. I highly recommend getting a
[1:48] >> This is super interesting to me. My team
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[1:51] of you that watch this show subscribe.
[1:52] And some of you have told us according
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[1:59] now if you've hit the subscribe button
[2:01] if you are a regular viewer of the show
[2:02] and you like what we do here. We're
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[2:11] team, everyone here to keep this show
[2:13] free, to keep it improving year over
[2:15] year and week over week, it is just to
[2:17] hit that subscribe button and to double
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[2:37] on with the show.
[2:39] [music]
[2:42] Andrew Huberman, um, we've waited many,
[2:45] many years for this and now it has
[2:48] arrived. This is your long-awaited book
[2:50] called Protocols, an operating manual
[2:51] for the human body. And inside this
[2:53] book, I counted roughly 50 different
[2:57] protocols split across seven different
[2:59] areas. Um, sleep, exercise, stress
[3:02] control, nutrition, light, focus,
[3:04] motivation, and learning, and personal
[3:05] growth. You've written 10 of the
[3:07] protocols you want to focus on sharing
[3:09] today. Can I ask why did you choose
[3:10] those 10?
[3:12] They're the ones that are going to move
[3:14] the needle the most in terms of one's
[3:16] mental health, physical health, and
[3:19] quote unquote performance. Your life
[3:21] will be so much better if you do them.
[3:22] >> And do they cost a lot of money to do
[3:24] the 10 that you've picked?
[3:25] >> No, they could be done either at
[3:27] completely zero cost or on a existing
[3:29] budget.
[3:30] >> And do you do these 10 things
[3:31] >> every day?
[3:32] >> Every day.
[3:33] >> There's one on there that I don't do
[3:35] every single day. I take off one day per
[3:37] week, but every single day without fail.
[3:39] And when you wrote them, did you write
[3:40] them in order of sequencing?
[3:42] >> Yeah. Throughout the day, from from
[3:44] start to finish throughout because this
[3:45] is the other thing. Protocols synergize.
[3:48] They ratchet together. How well you
[3:50] slept last night is dictating how well
[3:51] you feel now.
[3:52] >> These are gears in a larger system. One
[3:55] moves, the other ones move. And while
[3:58] there is a place for pharmarmacology and
[3:59] supplements and things that you take,
[4:02] >> ultimately these gears fit together
[4:03] based on what you do.
[4:05] >> Okay. So, let's get into it. What was
[4:06] the first uh thing that you drew? cuz I
[4:08] saw there was a picture there.
[4:09] >> Okay, so in my unelegant drawing, but I
[4:12] I am a you know biologist, so we're
[4:13] allowed to do this. I mean, this is
[4:15] essentially a plot of where you wake up
[4:16] in the morning and then where you go to
[4:18] sleep at night, you know, and these are
[4:19] not hours of the day. These are the
[4:21] different protocols. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
[4:24] 10. Okay, so um this line represents the
[4:29] healthy cortisol curve. Most people
[4:31] don't realize that, but you wake up
[4:32] because of a rise in cortisol. It's
[4:34] literally called the cortisol awakening
[4:35] response. If you've ever woken up 1
[4:37] minute before your alarm clock, it's
[4:39] because the cortisol awakening response
[4:41] is heavily entrainable, meaning it can
[4:43] be matched to external stimulant. You
[4:46] want this peak in cortisol as high as
[4:48] possible in the first 60 minutes of your
[4:50] day.
[4:51] Everyone thinks you want low cortisol,
[4:53] but here's the deal. High cortisol in
[4:55] the early part of your day is what
[4:57] provides for elevated mood, focus,
[4:59] attention, your ability to learn. It's
[5:02] also what establishes low cortisol in
[5:04] the afternoon and at night which is a
[5:06] requirement for falling and staying
[5:08] asleep.
[5:10] >> So this peak sets up this trough. So you
[5:13] want high morning cortisol, low
[5:16] nighttime cortisol. These represent
[5:19] melatonin, the hormone of sleepiness. As
[5:22] we know, if you slept the night before,
[5:23] then melatonin essentially is low at
[5:25] morning. And the dash line is adenosine,
[5:27] which is a downstream product of of the
[5:30] use of ATP in your cells. The more
[5:31] you're awake, the more activities you
[5:33] do, the more you think, adenosine builds
[5:34] up. That's why you get sleepy.
[5:36] [clears throat]
[5:37] >> So, what's very interesting is that when
[5:39] you spike your morning cortisol, and
[5:40] I'll explain how to do that in a moment.
[5:42] And you do that within the first hours
[5:44] of your day, you also establish a case
[5:47] where these little blips are stress,
[5:49] stressful text, stressful event, but
[5:51] they're brief. We always hear that
[5:52] cortisol is bad, but our ability to have
[5:54] big inflections in cortisol, stress out,
[5:56] and then they come back down to normal
[5:58] is very very good. If this peak was
[6:01] high, if this peak is not as high, and
[6:04] this is kind of a like a medium or or
[6:06] flat what they call a flattening of the
[6:08] cortisol curve, you see shorter
[6:10] lifespan, less recovery from every kind
[6:13] of illness, and and these stress bouts
[6:15] last a very long time because they're
[6:16] riding on a higher baseline. So if your
[6:18] morning cortisol level is lower or flat,
[6:22] >> right,
[6:22] >> then if I get that stressful text during
[6:24] the day, it will be a longer cortisol
[6:28] spike. More stress,
[6:29] >> bigger and longer.
[6:30] >> Oh wow.
[6:30] >> And not only that, but there's an
[6:32] indirect but very important interaction
[6:34] between cortisol and melatonin. Your
[6:36] sleepiness hormone doesn't come on and
[6:38] function as well.
[6:39] >> And so sleep gets very disrupted. So a
[6:42] lot of people think, "Oh, I don't want
[6:43] my morning cortisol high." And a lot of
[6:44] women in particular have been told,
[6:45] "Don't spike your cortisol. that's going
[6:47] to lead to excess visceral fat, moon
[6:49] face, etc. There's this a condition
[6:50] called Cushing syndrome, which is a
[6:52] massive overp production of cortisol.
[6:54] Very rare condition. I mean, it happens,
[6:56] but most people are not dealing with
[6:57] that, right? Most people's morning
[6:59] cortisol is too low and their afternoon
[7:01] and nighttime cortisol is too high.
[7:03] >> How do they know this stuff? Like, how
[7:04] do they test this?
[7:05] >> This healthy curve, as it's called, um,
[7:07] was measured through just consistent
[7:09] blood draws around the 24-hour cycle.
[7:11] And then it's been looked at in response
[7:13] to everything from caffeine to cold
[7:15] plunges to exercise to sunlight. And
[7:17] there's this very So protocol number one
[7:20] is hydrate. Your mind is exceedingly
[7:23] more sharp when you're well hydrated.
[7:26] And it actually helps boost your morning
[7:28] cortisol. There's a very interesting
[7:29] interaction between when the bladder
[7:32] being emptied as usually after people
[7:33] wake up, they use the the restroom, they
[7:35] urinate, and then hydrating. And there's
[7:37] an I'll talk about this a few times, but
[7:38] there's an ascending pathway along the
[7:41] vagus nerve that serves to wake up the
[7:43] brain. And part of that has to do with
[7:45] hydration first thing in the morning.
[7:46] You awake from bed to urinate in the
[7:49] middle of the night because of an
[7:50] arousal phenomenon of hydration and the
[7:52] bladder being full.
[7:52] >> When you say hydrate, do you mean
[7:54] electrolytes or just water?
[7:55] >> 16 to 32 ounces of good clean water is
[7:58] fine. If you want to add electrolytes,
[8:00] great.
[8:00] >> How much is that? Is that a cup or is
[8:01] that?
[8:02] >> Um, this is 16 ounces. Maybe 18 ounces.
[8:04] >> Okay. So, like a big a big mug. You want
[8:06] to consume about 80 ounces of water
[8:09] throughout your day. It's a lot, but you
[8:10] don't want to cons basically everything
[8:11] you want to do in the early part of the
[8:12] day, you want to do less in the evening
[8:14] part of your day. The next thing, and
[8:16] this is really key, it could have gone
[8:18] first, but you want to view sunlight or
[8:19] 10,000 lux artificial light. I could
[8:22] spend 3 hours talking about this, but
[8:24] I'll keep it really brief. When you view
[8:26] sunlight, there's this beautiful
[8:28] phenomenon. It activates these
[8:29] melanopsin intrinsically photosensitive
[8:31] ganglen cells. You know, the major focus
[8:33] of my work for many, many years. So I'll
[8:36] resist saying more. They literally
[8:38] extend physical wires that we call axons
[8:40] into your hypothalamus. Your master
[8:41] circadian clock resides there. We call
[8:43] that your super chaismatic nucleus. And
[8:46] when you view low solar angle sunlight,
[8:48] sun low in the sky, there's an abundance
[8:51] of yes UV, but it's lower when it's low
[8:53] in the sky. You actually can look at the
[8:54] morning sun more easily than you can the
[8:56] overhead sun. Why? The morning sun looks
[8:58] more yellow, orange, or even some red
[9:00] tones
[9:01] >> compared to the overhead sky. Well, the
[9:03] light coming from the sky is the same,
[9:04] right? But the specific wavelengths of
[9:07] light, as we call them, that are coming
[9:08] from the sun when it's low in the sky
[9:10] are the optimal stimulus for these
[9:12] melanops and intrinsically
[9:14] photosensitive cells that tell your
[9:15] central clock it's time to wake up. The
[9:17] day is beginning. Okay. There's also
[9:21] something incredible that happens if you
[9:22] get bright light in your eyes in that
[9:24] first ideally 30 minutes but even 60
[9:27] minutes of your day which it there are
[9:28] two pathways by which your brain
[9:30] circadian clock wakes you up. One is it
[9:33] sends signals through peptides it
[9:36] releases and neural signals but it's
[9:37] able to activate what we call the HPA
[9:40] axis hypothalamus pituitary gland which
[9:42] is sort of hangs outside the brain and
[9:44] then adrenals you release adrenaline
[9:46] there's a unique window that passes
[9:48] after about an hour following waking
[9:51] where your supercismatic clock can
[9:54] trigger an alternate pathway that
[9:55] literally goes down your spinal column
[9:58] and triggers your adrenals to release
[10:00] additional cortisol. In fact, viewing
[10:02] sunlight in the first hour of your day
[10:04] takes this peak. Here's what it would
[10:06] look like if you didn't view bright
[10:08] light in the first hour of your day. It
[10:10] would be here, which is bad. And your
[10:12] stress responses then would be bigger
[10:14] and longer.
[10:16] This
[10:18] increase in cortisol is driven by
[10:19] viewing sunlight. Now, when I say
[10:22] sunlight, people say, especially in the
[10:23] UK, they'll say there's no sun where I
[10:25] live. Okay, this could easily see say
[10:28] daylight. Why? Because there's always
[10:31] daylight out. If you look at how bright
[10:33] it is on an overcast day in the middle
[10:35] of December, even in the UK at 8:00 a.m.
[10:39] versus midnight the night before, it's
[10:42] different.
[10:42] >> Mhm.
[10:43] >> You know, it's obvious when there's
[10:44] overcast skies, less of the long
[10:46] wavelength light, the oranges and reds
[10:48] are coming through. But you want
[10:50] daylight in your eyes in the first hours
[10:52] of your day. Go out on your balcony if
[10:53] that's all you can do. If you're in a
[10:55] car, roll down the window. It's not good
[10:56] to try and do this through a window or
[10:58] windshield. There's so much data showing
[11:01] that spiking your morning cortisol this
[11:02] way establishes low cortisol and high
[11:05] sleepiness hormones let's call them at
[11:07] night which is great buffers stress and
[11:10] moreover kickstarts your immune system
[11:13] to protect you against bacteria and
[11:14] viruses you can encounter during the day
[11:17] it is great for your metabolism mood
[11:19] ability to learn and on and on and in
[11:20] the book I explain a number of different
[11:22] ways how this peak relates to this
[11:24] trough if people are interested but if
[11:26] you don't have access to sunlight or
[11:28] daylight light. Having a using a 10,000
[11:30] lux artificial light can be very
[11:32] beneficial. These 10,000 lux lights have
[11:34] been shown to significantly
[11:37] offset the symptoms of seasonal
[11:39] effective disorder, etc. But what we're
[11:42] finding from this huge study from the UK
[11:44] bio bank is that you want bright days
[11:47] and you want dark nights and they're
[11:49] additive. So having bright days is great
[11:51] for your mental health and physical
[11:53] health along a huge number of
[11:54] parameters. Significantly improves them.
[11:57] But having dark, even if you were in dim
[11:59] light all day, making it dark at night,
[12:01] people are healthier. The risk of dying
[12:03] early, if you have bright nights, goes
[12:06] up immensely. And we don't talk about
[12:08] this enough. If you don't have access to
[12:10] enough daylight, like you wake up before
[12:11] the sun comes out and you're up for 2
[12:13] hours, let's say before the sun comes
[12:14] out. I highly recommend getting a 10,000
[12:17] lux artificial light.
[12:18] >> And last time we spoke, you took me
[12:19] outside after the conversation and you
[12:20] had an app on your phone,
[12:22] >> right? Light meter. I have no relation
[12:24] to the app, but I use it. And that is
[12:25] able to tell you how much lux of light
[12:27] you're getting at the moment.
[12:28] >> But it's additive. So one thing that's
[12:30] important to note is let's say you miss
[12:31] a day, right? The next day get outside
[12:33] for twice as long. How long should you
[12:35] do it on a very clear morning with the
[12:37] sun rising? And by the way, you don't
[12:39] need to see the sun cross the horizon.
[12:41] You can just wait till it's elevated but
[12:43] it's low in the sky. People who are
[12:45] concerned about UV damage should know
[12:47] that when the sun is low in the sky, the
[12:49] UV index is much lower. And there's a
[12:51] reason for that. It's a phenomenon
[12:53] called relay scattering. Sunrises and
[12:55] sunsets are very beautiful and colorful.
[12:57] When the sun's overhead, it's hard to
[12:58] look at. It's this big ball of light.
[12:59] It's so bright because you're getting
[13:01] all the wavelengths, the UV all the way
[13:03] out to the infrared coming at you in
[13:05] more or less equal intensities. When the
[13:08] sun is low in the sky, the UV is it's
[13:10] not completely scattered, but not as
[13:13] much of that is is reaching your eyes.
[13:15] Much lower risk of sunburn, much lower
[13:17] risk of eye damage, and so on. So,
[13:19] here's the diabolical thing. Your
[13:21] screens are not nearly bright enough to
[13:24] kickstart this increase in cortisol in
[13:26] the morning, but they are very capable
[13:28] of increasing your cortisol levels at
[13:30] night because the this low level of
[13:33] cortisol makes you vulnerable to big
[13:35] increases in cortisol. It's a little bit
[13:37] of a detail that I explain in the book,
[13:39] but
[13:39] >> I was going to say on this point, is it
[13:41] just exposing my eyes to the light or
[13:42] does my body need to be exposed to it?
[13:45] >> Great point. And one of the protocols in
[13:46] there, it's not one of the 10 I listed,
[13:48] is about the importance of getting
[13:49] sunlight on as much of your skin as
[13:51] possible as is socially appropriate. Uh,
[13:53] beautiful work from Glen Jeffy's lab at
[13:55] University College London. You know, I
[13:57] can believe this. They do a glucose
[13:58] tolerance test. So they fast people,
[13:59] they have them drink a glucose drink.
[14:01] They measure how fast a blood sugar
[14:02] rises. And if they shine red light, so
[14:07] long wavelength is red is long
[14:08] wavelength light
[14:09] >> like that. Like that.
[14:10] >> Yeah. Like this would be medium
[14:11] wavelength because it's yellow. A red
[14:13] would be um so this is probably I'm
[14:16] guessing somewhere between 500 and 600
[14:18] nanometers of light and red would be
[14:20] probably somewhere between 580 and 700
[14:23] and then infrared goes out further you
[14:25] know into the 800s and thousand. The sun
[14:27] emits all of those. Okay, so this is
[14:29] long wavelength light. Okay. So, they
[14:32] shine a long wavelength light on
[14:33] people's backs and they do the glucose
[14:35] tolerance test and and they observe a
[14:38] more than 25% reduction in the peak and
[14:41] they also look at the rate of rise of
[14:43] blood glucose. It's buffering blood
[14:44] glucose rise which we know is a good
[14:46] thing.
[14:46] >> Just to summarize, they shine red light
[14:48] on someone's back while they have a
[14:50] glucose shot and their glucose spike is
[14:52] lower.
[14:52] >> That's right. And you can do this onto
[14:53] bare skin or you can do it through a
[14:55] t-shirt. Turns out that these people's
[14:57] metabolism rose significantly. Why? How?
[15:01] Well, long wavelength light can actually
[15:04] go into and through your body. It can it
[15:07] gets absorbed and it can go about 8
[15:09] centimeters into the body. Red light
[15:11] wavelength light of infrared can pass
[15:13] all the way through the body. They show
[15:14] that beautifully in this study. So
[15:16] that's not good. No, it's fantastic
[15:18] because along the way it makes
[15:21] confirmational changes in the way that
[15:23] your mitochondria handle the electrons.
[15:26] Basically this long wavelength infrared
[15:28] light that comes from the sun. It's the
[15:29] heat that you feel from the sun or from
[15:31] a long wavelength light device allows is
[15:35] so amazing. It actually allows your
[15:37] mitochondria to to function more
[15:40] effectively, more efficiently. Now, it's
[15:42] not to say that short wavelength light,
[15:43] blues and greens and ultraviolet light
[15:46] are bad. We need ultraviolet light. We
[15:48] need it on our skin to make vitamin D.
[15:50] What you want is full spectrum balanced
[15:52] light, but not so much UV that you get a
[15:54] sunburn. And you don't want a lot of
[15:56] shortwavelength light in the absence of
[15:58] long wavelength light. Best way to do
[16:00] that, sunlight in the early and later
[16:02] part of the day because the UV index is
[16:04] low. You're getting the full spectrum.
[16:06] Indoor LED lights like this, which we
[16:08] all spend a lot of time under. There's
[16:09] now evidence from from Glen Jeffy's lab
[16:11] and others that it actually may damage
[16:13] the mitochondria. We talked about
[16:15] melatonin coming coming from the pineal
[16:17] gland that makes you sleepy at night.
[16:19] You also have melatonin in most all of
[16:21] the cells of your body. And there it
[16:23] doesn't make you sleepy. serves as an
[16:24] antioxidant but it's sort of captured
[16:27] and the way to liberate it is through
[16:29] long wavelength light. So you have a
[16:31] protective mechanism that's kicked on
[16:32] with long wavelength light that protects
[16:34] you protects you against the oxidative
[16:36] stress and damage to cells
[16:39] >> and this has many many positive effects.
[16:42] So Glenn's lab has done experiments
[16:43] where they literally take in a light
[16:44] like this and they have people look at
[16:46] it like this for one to three minutes a
[16:48] couple times a week. They look at people
[16:50] different ages, different eye
[16:52] conditions. He's a serious vision
[16:53] scientist, right? He's not he's not a
[16:55] biohacker. He's not he's has no interest
[16:57] in commercial products actually,
[16:59] although sometimes I wish he did. People
[17:02] over 40 who experience age related
[17:04] vision loss, we all do a little bit,
[17:07] experience improvements in vision when
[17:08] they do this simple thing. And why would
[17:11] that be? Well, it turns out that your
[17:12] photo receptors, which absorb light and
[17:14] convert it into electrical signals that
[17:16] allow you to see, are the most
[17:18] mitochondrial rich and metabolically
[17:19] active cells in your entire body. Now,
[17:22] biologists love to play this game where
[17:23] they go, "Your tongue is the most
[17:26] metabolically active." Then they go,
[17:27] "No, you're you." Everyone makes a claim
[17:29] on this. The photo receptors, my
[17:31] friends, are the most metabolically
[17:32] active cells in your entire body. So,
[17:34] they have a ton of mitochondria, and
[17:36] they need to protect themselves against
[17:38] the oxidative damage that comes with
[17:40] generating a bunch of downstream
[17:41] products from ATP. So, long wavelength
[17:44] light is what protects us in this. So
[17:46] you can see significant improvements in
[17:48] vision for people that view long
[17:49] wavelength light couple times a week.
[17:52] But only in people older than 40. And
[17:54] get this, only in people that do that in
[17:57] the first 3 hours of their day.
[17:58] >> What?
[17:59] >> Yes. Your eyes and your body and brain
[18:02] are not the same at this first third of
[18:04] your day versus this middle third of
[18:06] your day versus the last third of your
[18:08] day and at night. They're not. Your
[18:11] sensitivity to bright light causing bad
[18:13] effects on you after sundown increases.
[18:17] Not immediately, but it increases
[18:18] gradually. Your need for bright light in
[18:21] your eyes in the early part of the of
[18:22] the day is immense. You need this. You
[18:26] you want this. And if you miss a day,
[18:28] get out the next day and view some more
[18:29] light. You asked, will light to other
[18:31] parts of the body work? Not for setting
[18:33] this system in motion, but it's a great
[18:36] idea to get out two to three times per
[18:37] week when the UV index is low. you can
[18:39] just look on your phone what's the UV
[18:40] index and in general be the early or the
[18:43] or the later half of your day when the
[18:45] UV index is lower and to get out and get
[18:47] some light onto your skin. You don't
[18:48] have to be naked or in a swimsuit. Great
[18:51] if you are and that's appropriate, but
[18:52] you can also just wear a t-shirt because
[18:54] the long wavelength light will go all
[18:55] the way through. So Glenn Jeffrey and
[18:57] Robert Roger Schwelt, he's a physician
[18:59] who talks about the immense benefits of
[19:01] getting sunlight onto the skin for
[19:05] getting over disease for state for
[19:07] enhancing immune system function and on
[19:09] and on.
[19:10] >> Can you because there's going to be a
[19:11] lot of people right now that are going
[19:12] to go buy a red light lamp.
[19:14] >> Not necessary.
[19:14] >> Not necessary.
[19:15] >> No. Sunlight. Pink Floyd. Pink Floyd
[19:18] album.
[19:18] >> Pass sunlight through a prism. It bends
[19:21] the light and you see the rainbow. Red,
[19:24] orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo,
[19:25] violet. But also in that sunlight is
[19:27] ultraviolet light, some UVB exposure
[19:30] each day to the skin, increases
[19:32] testosterone and estrogen in both women
[19:34] and men and is important for libido. It
[19:37] actually reinforces romantic
[19:38] relationships for reasons other than uh
[19:40] sexual interactions, um attractiveness,
[19:43] etc. Strong effects. So sunlight has it
[19:46] all. What you don't want is to go
[19:47] outside when there's so much UV that you
[19:49] get a sunburn. And you don't want to
[19:52] think that, you know, red light's the
[19:54] only light you need. You want that
[19:56] warmth from from the sun. And it gets
[19:57] better because and notice I'm I'm sort
[19:59] of like it gets better like a salesman.
[20:00] I'm selling nature. Okay, I'm telling
[20:02] you when you go outside and there's a
[20:04] lot of greenery. Greenery reflects long
[20:08] wavelength red and infrared light. Throw
[20:11] on some infrared goggles and you're not
[20:12] going to do this, but you look and they
[20:13] all that stuff would be glowing white in
[20:16] those goggles. Greenery reflects down
[20:19] infrared light. How do you know it
[20:21] reflects light? I'm stealing Roger's
[20:23] words as I say this, but where's the
[20:25] coolest place to be on a hot day? Under
[20:27] a tree. Why is that? Because it's
[20:29] reflecting the heat, the infrared light.
[20:31] But when you're out in greenery, you're
[20:33] getting all that long wavelength light,
[20:34] and it bounces around and it goes
[20:36] through you. So, get out into nature,
[20:38] walk outside. If you work and live in a
[20:40] city, get outside, take off a brimmed
[20:42] hat because you do want the the sun
[20:44] getting down onto your onto your face.
[20:46] People are so terrified about
[20:48] accelerating aging based on UV, but
[20:49] we're not talking about baking yourself
[20:51] in UV light all day. The the health
[20:53] benefits of this are immense. There's a
[20:55] Swedish study that actually showed that
[20:57] the more sunlight people got, the longer
[20:59] they lived, in fact, smokers who got a
[21:01] lot of sunlight, this isn't my favorite
[21:03] study, but um but we have to admit it's
[21:06] there, lived longers than non-smokers
[21:08] who didn't get enough sunlight. There
[21:10] and there are other things too like
[21:11] exercise, etc., but don't smoke, but get
[21:14] sunlight. There'll be a lot of night
[21:15] shift workers listening.
[21:16] >> I have a section specifically for night
[21:18] shift workers because
[21:21] here are the two scariest things. Night
[21:23] shift workers
[21:25] live shorter lives. Cancer rates go up.
[21:28] They're metabolically unhealthy. And
[21:30] it's very hard to mitigate. But I
[21:32] provide some tools specifically for
[21:34] night shift workers and for jet lag, by
[21:36] the way, because people travel. Here's
[21:38] the really scary thing. you and I
[21:41] qualify as night shift workers because
[21:43] the studies on night shift work, barring
[21:46] some of the more extreme ones, was most
[21:48] of them were on how many people after
[21:51] 6:00 p.m., right, are on devices getting
[21:55] artificial LED exposure or doing
[21:57] activities besides eating and
[21:58] socializing with their family or in bed.
[22:00] If you work at night at home, you're
[22:02] still a night shift worker. You don't
[22:04] have to work all night to be a night
[22:05] shift worker. So, we have a generation
[22:07] of kids that are metabolically sick. And
[22:11] I don't like to be one of these like
[22:12] fearmonger people, but here's the cool
[22:14] thing. I'm going to skip because we're
[22:16] on to this. I'm going to skip to number
[22:18] six.
[22:18] >> Okay.
[22:19] >> Okay. As the sun is going down, you
[22:22] don't have to watch the sunset. That
[22:23] would be cool to watch the sun. Everyone
[22:25] loves sunsets.
[22:26] >> But try and get some daylight in your
[22:28] eyes in the late afternoon or evening.
[22:30] If you're going to be working indoors
[22:31] from like after lunch until nightfall,
[22:33] try and get near a window. Do your best.
[22:35] Go out on a balcony, take a quick walk
[22:36] around the building, do what you can to
[22:38] get some sunlight in your eyes without
[22:39] sunglasses. When you get some sunlight
[22:42] in your eyes in the late part of your
[22:44] day, let's just say in the last third of
[22:46] your day, and the clock times don't
[22:48] matter here cuz we all get up and go to
[22:49] sleep at different times. You buffer
[22:52] those cells in your eye against the
[22:54] negative effects of artificial light at
[22:56] night. This is your Netflix o
[22:58] inoculation, as I call it. Like you can
[23:01] be on your computer at 9 or 10 at night
[23:03] without it damaging your melatonin
[23:05] levels quite as much, without it
[23:07] disrupting your blood glucose levels and
[23:09] your sleep if you get some bright light
[23:10] in your eyes in the later part of your
[23:13] day. But there's one population of
[23:14] people for whom this doesn't work and it
[23:16] seems to be adolescence. You can't
[23:18] buffer them against the negative effects
[23:20] of screen light at night. What happens
[23:22] if you use screen light at night? You
[23:24] get big bumps in cortisol and people
[23:26] say, "Well, I can fall asleep just fine
[23:28] after being on my iPad or screen." True,
[23:31] some people don't have as much of a
[23:32] negative effect from blue light at
[23:33] night, but the blood glucose effects and
[23:36] the next morning cortisol effects are
[23:39] the problem. Remember I said high
[23:41] cortisol sets you up for low cortisol.
[23:42] >> Yeah.
[23:43] >> Low cortisol sets you up for high
[23:45] cortisol. So you've got a population of
[23:47] people, kids who have their cortisol is
[23:49] slightly but significantly higher in the
[23:51] evening and at night because they're on
[23:52] devices and the next morning their
[23:54] cortisol levels are struggling to get
[23:57] up. M
[23:58] >> you know this is a tough one because
[24:00] teens socialize that way and you don't
[24:02] want to take their phones away and they
[24:03] cling to their iPads like you know like
[24:06] my new bulldog strummer clings to a chew
[24:09] toy you know it's like you can take it
[24:10] away from them but like they hate you
[24:12] for it. So I said view daylight cuz you
[24:14] can't always see the sun but even if
[24:15] it's overcast just get out for a few
[24:16] minutes and take a walk your sleep will
[24:18] be better.
[24:19] >> I feel like I'm [clears throat] giving a
[24:20] lecture in class.
[24:21] >> That's amazing. That's what I want.
[24:22] >> So we said hydrate sunlight. And then
[24:24] number three, I know everyone's heard
[24:26] it, but if you can exercise in the first
[24:28] 3 to four hours of your day, you could
[24:30] do it in the afternoon without problem,
[24:32] but there's a huge advantage to doing
[24:34] cardiovascular resistance training in
[24:36] the first 3 hours of your day.
[24:38] >> Cardiovascular or resistance training.
[24:40] >> Yeah. And in the book, I devote an
[24:41] entire chapter, chapter 2, to exercise.
[24:43] And I explain what I think personally is
[24:45] the best way to structure an exercise
[24:47] program for somebody who doesn't want to
[24:49] be the most jacked, but wants muscle and
[24:51] definition and strength. somebody that
[24:53] doesn't need to run a marathon for a
[24:55] record time, but wants endurance.
[24:57] Somebody who wants to be able to sprint
[24:58] reasonably fast and has middle distance
[25:01] ability, too. And it's basically
[25:03] structured. You either lift or do cardio
[25:05] on alternating days, three days total of
[25:07] lifting. Warm up reasonably low volume
[25:10] of work sets, two to three work sets per
[25:12] exercise, emphasizing compound
[25:14] movements. So, not a like a preacher
[25:17] curl or a tricep kickback. Those are
[25:19] fine, but you're going to get a lot more
[25:20] bang for your buck if you're doing
[25:22] pull-ups, rows, dips,
[25:24] >> multiple muscles at once,
[25:26] >> multiple joints moving at once as
[25:28] compound. Um, some hip hinge movement.
[25:30] So, could be squat, hack squat, some
[25:32] deadlifts, and I talk about how to get
[25:34] specific aesthetic effects in there,
[25:35] too. I mean, I'm by no means an exercise
[25:37] physiologist, but I've been resistance
[25:39] training since I was 16. I'm I'm now 50.
[25:41] I'll be 51 in a month, so I feel great.
[25:43] cardio at the start if you're doing
[25:45] resistance training or not at all.
[25:46] >> I warm up for 5 minutes of cardio and
[25:48] then resistance train, but I do the
[25:49] cardio on alternate days. Three days
[25:51] total of cardio. One day of cardio is
[25:53] long and slow for about an hour. One is
[25:55] about 30 minutes at moderate intensity.
[25:57] One is a short one like I did this
[25:58] morning. Jumped on the air bike, pedal
[26:01] easy for a minute, then go all out for
[26:03] 30 seconds, easy for 10, 30, 10, 30, 10,
[26:06] 30, 10, and then you're off the bike.
[26:08] Basically max heart rate training. Yeah.
[26:09] >> And the day after leg day, if you do
[26:12] your legs right, take a rest day.
[26:14] >> Yeah. But the here's the interesting
[26:16] thing about exercise. You notice I
[26:18] didn't say deliberate cold exposure.
[26:20] >> You [clears throat] want to blow some
[26:21] minds? I will go toe-to-toe with anybody
[26:25] on the internet or off the internet.
[26:27] Deliberate cold exposure does not raise
[26:29] cortisol.
[26:31] This much. It's amazing to me that the
[26:33] same people that are suggesting moderate
[26:35] to high-intensity exercise are saying
[26:37] that deliberate cold exposure raises
[26:38] cortisol. is simply not true. Not true
[26:40] for women cuz a lot of people said, "Is
[26:42] your book going to be for women and
[26:43] men?" I distinguish between data when
[26:45] there are data showing that it's
[26:46] different for women and men. I
[26:48] acknowledge when there's no data in
[26:49] women and the data are very clear in
[26:51] women and men, trivial increases in
[26:53] cortisol, magnificent huge increases in
[26:56] adrenaline, norepinephrine, and dopamine
[26:59] from deliberate cold exposure. And that
[27:01] those so so-called catakolamines are
[27:03] great to have rolling into your day.
[27:04] They're the things of alertness and
[27:06] focus. The appropriate stressor for
[27:08] cortisol, appropriate meaning the one
[27:09] that you want, is a psychological
[27:11] stressor. We know that.
[27:13] >> Working out with weights for 45 minutes,
[27:15] taking your sets near to failure, going
[27:17] for a run for 30 minutes. So, the point
[27:20] being, if you do this exercise in the
[27:23] first three hours of your day, you're
[27:24] getting a big inflection in cortisol.
[27:26] Again, this is what you want. Now, some
[27:29] people can't exercise first thing in the
[27:31] day. They either don't want to or they
[27:33] can't by way of schedule. And if you go
[27:36] into exercise in the later part of your
[27:37] day, that's fine. Your cortisol will
[27:39] come back down. You can do some long
[27:40] exhale breathing to slow your heart
[27:41] rate. Andy Galpin talks about that. Take
[27:43] a hot shower, which paradoxically lowers
[27:47] your core body temperature. And then
[27:48] helps you sleep. When you heat up the
[27:49] surface of your body,
[27:50] >> you have a thermostat in your brain
[27:52] called the medial preoptic area, and it
[27:54] goes, "Oh, the surface of my body is
[27:56] warm. I should probably cool my core
[27:58] body temperature down." And you fall
[27:59] asleep better. You know, this is like
[28:01] the the putting socks on effect or the
[28:02] hot bath effect, right? I assume a
[28:04] massage or something like that also.
[28:06] >> Great. You have access to that in the
[28:08] last hour of your day. Like uh we need
[28:09] to learn more about your life.
[28:11] [laughter]
[28:11] >> My fiance used to be a masseuse for many
[28:14] years. So she
[28:15] >> awesome.
[28:16] >> So when you exercise for a few days
[28:19] early in the first three hours of your
[28:20] day, let's say you do that two times.
[28:23] The next morning you wake up feeling a
[28:25] little bit more willing to exercise. Did
[28:27] your willpower change? Well, in some
[28:29] sense, yes. But what happened was your
[28:31] cortisol entrainment mechanisms changed.
[28:33] Your superc kaismatic nucleus all day is
[28:35] clocking what you're doing. Let's say
[28:37] you eat like 9, 12, snack at 3 and 6:30.
[28:40] You have a food anticipatory signal. You
[28:42] have ghrein is secreted makes you
[28:45] hungry. We are clocks and the
[28:47] synchronization of those clocks is very
[28:48] very important. When you exercise at
[28:50] roughly the same time of day, early in
[28:52] the day, you will have more energy to
[28:54] exercise in the first 15 minutes before
[28:56] that. You'll notice you kind of start
[28:57] stirring around. Yes, part of it is
[28:59] cognitive, but a lot of it actually is
[29:02] your brain is anticipating
[29:04] exercises coming. Oh, cool. That's why I
[29:07] I teach neuro anatomy, so this is fun.
[29:09] >> I have a a brain here in front of me. It
[29:12] does open up in case you want to open it
[29:13] up. But you just reminded me of
[29:14] something.
[29:15] >> You reminded me of something that I saw
[29:17] you talk about, which was the anterior
[29:19] mid-sulate cortex.
[29:21] >> And I think you described this as being
[29:22] one of the most interesting
[29:24] >> discoveries of neuroscience. So
[29:27] singulate cortex I mean it's not
[29:28] directly exposed here but the anterior
[29:31] mids singulate cortex would sit
[29:33] somewhere like there this is an amazing
[29:37] structure right I mean just to remind
[29:40] people like when we feel some sort of
[29:43] pressure social pressure physical
[29:45] pressure that we hate and we decide I'm
[29:49] going to lean into this like I'm going
[29:51] to compete or I'm going to push through
[29:53] this internal or external resistance
[29:55] neurons in the anterior midsulate cortex
[29:57] are just firing away and if that area is
[30:00] stimulated my colleague Joe Parvevesy at
[30:02] Stanford showed this he's a neurosurgeon
[30:04] people say I feel like a challenge is
[30:06] coming on and I'm going to lean into it
[30:08] this is the brain area of tenacity
[30:12] and the amazing thing is it has
[30:13] connections all over the brain with
[30:15] reward systems etc so it's collecting
[30:18] information about when it gets activated
[30:20] what's going on in the world that makes
[30:22] you feel pressure when you feel like
[30:24] pushing back when you don't but the Best
[30:25] part is it is highly subject to
[30:27] plasticity. People who diet successfully
[30:32] their anterior mids singulate cortex
[30:34] gets bigger and more active. People who
[30:36] embark on a new exercise program adding
[30:39] some component of exercise. For me it's
[30:41] mobility work because I've got a little
[30:42] stiff over the years. I know. So when
[30:45] you do something that you don't want to
[30:47] do, that you don't reflexively do, your
[30:50] anterior midsulate cortex gets bigger
[30:52] and more willing to engage in
[30:53] challenging things going forward.
[30:55] >> Yeah. So that's the key point, which is
[30:57] that sets you up to be able to do more
[30:59] challenging things in the future.
[31:00] >> That's right. Why would you do
[31:03] deliberate cold exposure? I'll tell you
[31:05] why. Because your ability to sit calmly
[31:08] or even not so calmly when your system
[31:10] is flooded with adrenaline and
[31:12] norepinephrine and to be able to trigger
[31:13] that with cold water safely like cold
[31:16] shower, getting into a cold ice bath,
[31:17] it's safe as long as it's not so cold.
[31:19] As long as you're not hyperventilating
[31:20] beforehand on purpose, that carries over
[31:23] to your ability to keep your head
[31:25] straight when other things trigger
[31:27] adrenaline. You don't get 10 stress
[31:28] systems, you get one. And stress looks
[31:31] like your adrenaline goes and it comes
[31:33] down slowly. This is a hallmark of
[31:35] stress. Cortisol goes up goes down.
[31:37] Right? So the Oh, you are prepared, my
[31:40] friend. My goodness, you should be a
[31:41] university professor. You want to teach
[31:43] with me at Stanford? So I came up with a
[31:45] model for arousal, right? People hear
[31:48] arousal and they think, "Oh, it's got to
[31:49] be romantic arousal." It can be, but
[31:51] arousal is really just how alert or
[31:52] sleepy you are. So you can be really
[31:55] sleepy, like in a coma, or you can be in
[31:57] full-blown panic. Nobody wants that. But
[31:59] a seesaw is the right analogy here
[32:00] because we have this thing called the
[32:01] autonomic nervous system. And the
[32:03] autonomic nervous system is made up of
[32:07] two parts, parasympathetic and the
[32:10] sympathetic nervous system. They're in
[32:11] different parts of the body. They both
[32:13] connect to most every organ. But in
[32:16] general, when you are relaxed, that's
[32:19] what we call the reflection of
[32:21] parasympathetic tone going up. When
[32:23] you're stressed, it's the reflection of
[32:24] sympathetic tone going up. But as you
[32:27] get sleepy, your parasympathetic nervous
[32:29] system starts to dominate a bit. And as
[32:32] you get really sleepy, it dominates more
[32:35] when you wake up in the morning. And
[32:36] then if you do the right things like
[32:37] hydrate, get sunlight and some exercise,
[32:40] well then your cortisol goes up and
[32:41] you're going to be more alert. The
[32:43] ability to navigate stress of all kinds
[32:48] depends on your ability to do what I
[32:50] call is control the tightness of this
[32:52] hinge. When you train your ability to
[32:56] think, breathe, stay calm, when your
[32:59] system is flooded with adrenaline and
[33:01] that happens later in a way that was
[33:04] nonvoluntary, something happened that
[33:06] you didn't want to happen, your brain
[33:08] immediately flits to the understanding
[33:09] of that place and you are able to
[33:12] maintain thoughtfulness. You can know to
[33:15] not speak. That's often the best thing
[33:16] you can do. You know to react or not
[33:18] react. In fact, when you get into a cold
[33:20] plunge, one of the beautiful things
[33:22] about cold is that your prefrontal
[33:24] cortex that's involved in strategy
[33:26] setting and making meaning out of what's
[33:28] going on, its activity is greatly
[33:30] suppressed for the first 20 to 30
[33:32] seconds. Know this about every stressful
[33:36] circumstance. In the first 20 to 30
[33:38] seconds, you are brain damaged. You are
[33:40] brain damaged. You're you are in that
[33:43] mode of like you could react physically.
[33:45] Sometimes that can save your life, but
[33:47] most times you just don't want to do
[33:49] anything. Step out of the way of the
[33:50] car, get away from the aggressor,
[33:52] whatever. But most times you're best off
[33:54] not saying a darn thing. And then your
[33:56] prefrontal cortex slowly starts coming
[33:58] back online. And then you're back again
[33:59] cuz you're ruminating, you know? And
[34:00] >> this is good relationship advice.
[34:02] >> Very good relationship advice.
[34:03] [laughter] I wish I had learned it long
[34:04] ago. Right. Actually, last night I
[34:06] looked on Twitter and I saw something
[34:07] that was both perplexing and a little
[34:09] bit upsetting to me. And I went to sleep
[34:11] like, I know how to deal with this. Some
[34:12] long exhale breathing, which will slow
[34:14] your heart rate. and we'll talk about
[34:15] that. But I woke up this morning, turns
[34:17] out it was a complete misunderstanding
[34:19] and everything was reversed. But last
[34:21] night I thought about sending a text,
[34:24] but I thought later at night the
[34:26] prefrontal cortex is already diminished.
[34:28] This is why stress feels so much harder
[34:29] to deal with at night
[34:31] >> and prefrontal cortex. We should
[34:32] describe that logic and stuff.
[34:34] >> So um frontal cortex, so here it's
[34:37] logical. You have the frontal and motor
[34:40] areas here. And your prefrontal cortex
[34:41] is basically a big patch of real estate
[34:44] behind your forehead that in humans is
[34:46] greatly expanded compared to in other
[34:49] mammals. I don't like calling them
[34:50] lower, but they have less prefrontal
[34:52] cortex. So, they're more driven by their
[34:54] impulses. One of the most incredible
[34:56] things that every child and adult needs
[34:58] to develop is what's called top- down
[35:00] inhibition. You feel an impulse, but you
[35:03] resist the impulse. M
[35:06] >> in fact the way I've mostly trained my
[35:08] dog strummer because it works is I
[35:10] taught him at 9 weeks of age put down a
[35:13] piece of food of course he goes for it
[35:14] he loves food and you teach him wait and
[35:17] he sits there and you teach him to look
[35:18] at you and then now he I can have him
[35:21] moving toward a piece of food and I say
[35:22] wait and his nose can be this far and
[35:25] he'll just stop. He has great top- down
[35:26] inhibition. Is it about food? No. Am I
[35:29] trying to torture him? Of course not.
[35:30] It's so that if I say wait, he can
[35:32] suppress his arousal.
[35:36] >> This is one of the most valuable skills.
[35:38] And people with frontal damage show an
[35:39] inability to do that, which is why
[35:41] sometimes they're violent or they say
[35:42] inappropriate things. People who are
[35:44] tired, stressed, drunk, prefrontal
[35:48] cortex activity is suppressed. Get in a
[35:50] cold shower. First 20, 30 seconds, it's
[35:53] kind of fun. You're you're like, here I
[35:55] am with less of a brain than I had
[35:57] getting in. And then 30 seconds later
[36:00] you're like, I can do this.
[36:01] >> This explains why you do things tired.
[36:04] >> Don't do things tired. Don't say things
[36:05] tired. Impulse control is way worse.
[36:08] >> So when I heard you talk about the
[36:09] anterior mids singular cortex and that
[36:11] there was this part of the brain that
[36:12] was kind of like the willpower or you
[36:14] described it then as the tenacity
[36:16] muscle. It completely changed my
[36:19] relationship with hard things because it
[36:21] made me realize at some sort of like I
[36:23] guess some conceptual level that every
[36:25] hard thing I overcome is better
[36:28] equipping me like when I you know curl
[36:30] weights in the gym to do harder things
[36:32] tomorrow.
[36:33] >> Yes.
[36:33] >> When I heard other oh there's like a
[36:34] neurological I'm making a neurological
[36:36] investment in my future and then you
[36:38] talked there about doing voluntary
[36:40] difficult things like the cold plunge
[36:42] whatever
[36:43] >> or learning a new language. It can be
[36:45] cognitive in nature. It can be learning
[36:48] to dance if that's stressful for you.
[36:49] And it can be anything that creates some
[36:52] resistance for you, internal resistance,
[36:55] anything of that sort. This is a a
[36:57] beautiful structure because it's wired
[36:59] into cognitive capacities and our
[37:01] ability to build them and challenges
[37:03] with that to emotional challenges.
[37:05] >> We're kind of optimizing our lives
[37:06] towards comfort though, aren't we?
[37:07] That's like a winning formula is more
[37:10] comfortable things.
[37:11] >> I think Jack Dorsey said it best.
[37:13] There's this great video of him online.
[37:15] It was it was a small lecture that he
[37:16] was giving where he said anytime we
[37:18] exchange ourselves, our money, our time
[37:21] for convenience, we are almost always
[37:23] giving up something that's like
[37:24] fundamentally useful for us
[37:26] neurologically. And it's okay to do. I
[37:29] order food on Door Dash cuz there's
[37:31] great food and I don't have a lot of
[37:32] time to cook. I'd like to devote my time
[37:33] to other things. I'm trading for
[37:35] convenience. But if you're aware of the
[37:37] trade-off, you're much better off. And
[37:41] the real question is what you're going
[37:42] to do with that additional time. While
[37:44] I'm against, you know, overoptimization
[37:46] to the point that it pulls you out of
[37:48] life, like it diminishes life, I am all
[37:50] for striving and optimization quote
[37:52] unquote in ways that allow you to lean
[37:54] into the rest of your life with more
[37:56] vigor. I think Arthur Brooks says it
[37:57] best. You know I mean we are wired and
[38:00] meaning comes from striving and within
[38:03] striving is some struggle and within
[38:05] struggle is also the release from
[38:07] struggle and that's also very uh
[38:10] satisfying. Here's the overoptimization
[38:12] thing to me in a nutshell which is
[38:15] there are people for whom doing two of
[38:18] the things I described for 5 minutes
[38:21] each per day will experience a
[38:22] significant improvement in their mental
[38:24] and physical health. There are people
[38:25] for whom they're sort of like junkyard
[38:27] dogs. They can live on anything. They
[38:28] have a ton of vigor and they're going be
[38:29] like, "Yeah, I didn't feel that much
[38:30] from like drinking some water and
[38:31] getting sunlight." Cool. I got you.
[38:33] You're one of those people who can fall
[38:34] asleep in front of the screen, get up,
[38:35] and just keep going on a, you know,
[38:38] sugary muffin and something like great.
[38:41] >> But everyone can afford to take a look
[38:43] at what they're doing now and try and
[38:45] move the needle toward more vigor,
[38:48] well-being,
[38:49] happiness, peace by doing certain
[38:51] things.
[38:52] >> Do you become more sensitive to the
[38:54] thing when you stop doing the thing?
[38:56] >> Depends on the thing. So, for instance,
[38:58] if people like I talk about nutrition in
[39:00] there and all we it's one of the cards I
[39:02] actually cover everything from the all
[39:04] meat diet to vegan diets to I really go
[39:07] into the literature so people can choose
[39:08] but really if you look at what most
[39:11] people could benefit from doing and you
[39:13] could do this with vegan or vegetarian
[39:14] it's a little harder but the best diet
[39:16] is going to be the following right not
[39:18] too many calories not too few that's
[39:20] individual you can calculate that it's
[39:22] an easy thing to do but I provide a way
[39:23] to do that you need to get what's what
[39:26] are high complete protein to calorie
[39:28] ratio proteins. This is a concept I came
[39:31] up with because if you look at the
[39:32] literature, yes, we need the essential
[39:34] amino acids. So that's a complete
[39:36] protein, but you can get that from beans
[39:38] and rice, but to get 30 g of complete
[39:43] protein from beans and rice, you're
[39:44] going to consume about four to five
[39:46] times as many calories as is required if
[39:48] you get it from a chicken breast.
[39:49] >> So this is the the factor that's kind of
[39:51] obvious, but no one ever talks about. So
[39:53] you want to eat some high complete
[39:54] protein to calorie ratio protein. So you
[39:57] know eggs, lean meat, fish and then
[40:00] everyone knows you need fiber,
[40:02] >> right? So vegetables and fruits. But
[40:03] what I will say is that many people who
[40:06] remove us starches entirely.
[40:08] >> Mhm. [clears throat]
[40:09] >> Or remove vegetables entirely will find
[40:11] that they their autoimmune issues
[40:12] resolve and there are reasons for that
[40:15] and we have to acknowledge that. But
[40:17] most people should be eating some
[40:18] vegetables and fruit for micronutrients
[40:20] and fiber. Low sugar fermented food.
[40:23] very clear Justin Sonnenberg's work from
[40:24] Stanford very clear lowers the
[40:27] inflammatome in fact when they had
[40:29] people eat more fiber for many people
[40:32] inflammatory markers went up no one
[40:34] likes to talk about that especially not
[40:35] the vegans but too much fiber can be
[40:38] noxious for some people and
[40:40] pro-inflammatory so low sugar fermented
[40:42] foods like sauerkraut kimchi beet kvass
[40:46] is delicious problem is they tend to be
[40:48] expensive but you can make your own and
[40:49] there's recipes online to do these
[40:51] things I don't want to get into the seed
[40:53] oil debate. Just eat just use olive oil.
[40:56] It's delicious. It's relatively
[40:57] inexpensive nowadays to get real olive
[40:59] oil. Small amounts of butter. Okay. Like
[41:03] like why are we even debating seed oils?
[41:04] It's so dumb. It's like the the seed oil
[41:06] debate is like the fastest way to kill
[41:08] neurons that I'm aware of. You know,
[41:10] it's like so dumb. It's like because the
[41:11] studies are not well done. You're
[41:13] comparing a processed food diet that
[41:15] includes seed oils versus or you're
[41:17] talking clean seed oils versus a high
[41:19] meat diet with processed meat. It's a
[41:21] it's a mess. It's like as a scientist,
[41:23] you just look at this and you go like
[41:24] this field sucks.
[41:25] >> Like it someone wants to have a
[41:27] magnificent career in science. Go into
[41:30] the field of nutrition and do some
[41:32] really good studies because the studies
[41:34] are a little lousy. 90% of them like you
[41:37] can look at it. You don't even have to
[41:38] be trained in nutrition. You go there
[41:40] five different variables here and four
[41:41] over here. This is like what you would
[41:43] call a bad experiment.
[41:44] >> So olive oil the data are great. It's
[41:48] impressive. And then starches are great
[41:50] for fueling muscles and glycogen and
[41:53] brain, but you don't want to overdo
[41:55] them. And the way that people tend to
[41:57] overdo starches is by eating starches
[42:00] combined with a lot of fats. So
[42:02] sourdough bread is great. Sourdough
[42:04] bread with butter is even better if you
[42:06] ask me. Sourdough bread with equal
[42:08] amounts of butter and bread, you're
[42:10] starting to get into problems. It's very
[42:11] hard for people to go from like to
[42:13] overeat starches unless they have a lot
[42:15] of fats with them or sugar with them. on
[42:18] starches. Is there an impact? I think
[42:19] I've heard you talk about an impact on
[42:20] your sleep with what you eat late at
[42:23] night.
[42:23] >> Many people who don't eat enough
[42:25] starches find that they have sleep
[42:27] issues. And there are reasons for this
[42:29] because we talk about comfort foods.
[42:32] >> Typically, people think junk foods when
[42:33] they think comfort foods, but foods that
[42:36] increase glucose lower cortisol. H,
[42:40] that's weird. Starches lower cortisol.
[42:42] And you want your cortisol low at night.
[42:45] Helps you fall and stay asleep. Now, you
[42:46] don't want to eat too close to bedtime.
[42:48] You also don't want to have gnawing
[42:49] hunger at bedtime. We talked about that.
[42:51] But here's the interesting thing. What
[42:53] is cortisol? We I should have mentioned
[42:55] this earlier. What is cortisol? Is it a
[42:56] stress hormone? No. It's a hormone
[42:58] that's released during stress. But
[43:01] cortisol's job is not to deal with
[43:05] stress. Cortisol's job is to mobilize
[43:07] energy in the body. When cortisol goes
[43:10] up, glucose is mobilized and other
[43:12] fuels, too. So when you eat starches,
[43:15] you buffer cortisol.
[43:18] There's a very clear relationship here.
[43:20] So people who are not eating enough
[43:22] starches who then allow themselves that
[43:24] bowl of rice or a bowl of pasta in their
[43:26] final meal of the day or a little bit at
[43:28] lunch and at dinner, maybe even a bowl
[43:29] of oatmeal breakfast, they feel more
[43:32] even psychologically. They have more
[43:35] physical energy. Sometimes people with
[43:37] chronic stress issues notice they stop
[43:38] shaking. People with autoimmune issues
[43:40] sometimes resolve those because your
[43:42] cortisol is buffered. Mhm.
[43:43] >> Because your blood glucose is elevated
[43:45] and so your body isn't tapping into the
[43:47] survival system to try and mobilize
[43:49] glucose. So
[43:50] >> I have this outstanding question that I
[43:51] have to ask you. It goes back to the
[43:53] picture that you drew of the graph.
[43:54] Where is that one? You said high
[43:56] cortisol in the morning is a good thing.
[43:58] >> Yep.
[43:58] >> So what if I pick up my phone first
[44:02] thing in the morning and I look at my
[44:03] worst emails
[44:05] >> in some sense from the perspective of
[44:07] spiking your cortisol? Like it's a good
[44:09] thing. But can you do it outside while
[44:10] getting sunlight? I was wondering if it
[44:12] matters like how the cortisol comes
[44:13] because what if I stress myself out in
[44:15] the morning? I I really
[44:16] >> doesn't matter. The problem is the
[44:18] rumination that comes with stress,
[44:19] right? So, you know, the nice thing
[44:21] about physical stressors that we control
[44:23] like a workout or a cold plunge is that
[44:27] they have an onset and an offset. And
[44:29] yes, they start faster than they end,
[44:32] right? You have stress and it kind of
[44:33] carries over. You ruminate. But
[44:35] psychological stressors tend to bang
[44:37] around in our brain a lot and late at
[44:39] night and they tend to come back. I will
[44:41] say this, I think 2027 is going to be
[44:44] the year that we close the coffin on
[44:47] this cortisol is bad thing.
[44:48] >> So, how should I think about cort
[44:49] cortisol? Because right now, I think of
[44:51] it as the stress hormone.
[44:52] >> It's to mobilize energy,
[44:54] >> okay?
[44:54] >> So, you can use it,
[44:55] >> okay?
[44:55] >> And if you're going to sleep at night,
[44:57] you don't need to mobilize energy so you
[44:58] can use it. You need to rest and reset
[45:00] your body.
[45:01] >> Okay?
[45:01] >> Cortisol is an energyromoting
[45:04] hormone. So if I walk up on stage, my
[45:06] cortisol level, like before I go up on
[45:08] stage and there's a big audience,
[45:09] whatever, my cortisol level is going to
[45:10] go up then.
[45:11] >> Yeah. If you're stressed about it, maybe
[45:12] a little bit more, but it's it's it's a
[45:14] preparation hormone. You're preparing
[45:16] for adversity, but also great things.
[45:18] There are these beautiful studies from a
[45:19] guy named James McGaw and Larry Cahill,
[45:22] which showed do you know that if you
[45:23] want somebody to learn something, you
[45:25] know what you do? You spike their
[45:26] cortisol before, during, or after that
[45:28] thing should work. Why not? Trauma does
[45:31] that and you never forget. All you do is
[45:33] work on trying to remove the emotional
[45:35] load of that traumatic thing.
[45:36] >> Wait, so if does that mean that someone
[45:38] who's listening to this podcast right
[45:40] now in the gym
[45:41] >> is going to have better knowledge recall
[45:43] of what we talked about than someone
[45:44] who's listening in bed?
[45:45] >> Great question. So I have a a chapter
[45:47] that's all about learning motivation and
[45:48] plasticity. And we've all heard exercise
[45:52] makes your brain better. How? Why? Turns
[45:55] out it's very important to understand.
[45:57] There are two ways it does it or at
[45:58] least two. One is it raises your levels
[46:01] of arousal. Exercise doesn't make you
[46:03] smarter. Exercise makes you more alert
[46:06] coming out of the exercise so you can go
[46:08] learn things because it turns out you
[46:09] have to be alert to learn things. In
[46:11] particular, you need adrenaline and
[46:13] cortisol elevated to learn things. So
[46:15] when people say, you know, weightlifting
[46:17] makes is good for your brain. Cardio is
[46:20] good for your brain. Turns out long slow
[46:22] cardio, my endurance friends aren't
[46:24] going to like this. Not that great for
[46:25] your brain. It's not bad for your brain,
[46:27] but it's not that great for your brain.
[46:29] Turns out an intense weightlifting
[46:30] session or high-intensity interval
[46:32] training session in the 4 hours after
[46:34] that you are primed for learning. Why?
[46:36] You got a lot of stimulatory molecules
[46:39] in your body and you can focus better.
[46:41] >> What about if I'm a podcaster and I want
[46:43] to be able to ask good questions and use
[46:44] my mouth and my brain uh in that context
[46:47] not not necessarily just learning but
[46:49] performance of my sort of cognition.
[46:51] >> So the performance curve basically is
[46:52] inverted to you. If you're not alert
[46:54] enough, you can't do what you need to
[46:56] do. If you're too alert, you can't do
[46:58] what you need to do or learn. So, you
[46:59] want to be at the top of that inverted
[47:01] U. And a lot of what learning is about
[47:03] and a lot of what the intermedulate
[47:05] cortex is about is getting from I don't
[47:07] want to do it up to the top of that U.
[47:10] Then it's usually about not getting too
[47:12] stressed. Now, I learned the best trick
[47:14] for this, like the two best tricks. And
[47:16] in fact, that will take us to number
[47:18] five. You can use any time of of day,
[47:20] which is use physiological size to
[47:23] reduce stress fast. Okay. Okay. So, I
[47:24] have a a chapter on stress mitigation
[47:26] and it's got essentially two components.
[47:28] One is how to limit stress in the
[47:29] moment.
[47:30] >> Okay.
[47:31] >> Very very important to know how to limit
[47:33] stress in the moment. And here,
[47:34] >> why is it so important?
[47:35] >> Oh gosh. Because meditation, great
[47:38] night's sleep, massage,
[47:40] social relations, being wellfed,
[47:42] hydrated, all of that helps you buffer
[47:44] stress. But when something happens and
[47:48] your heart rate is too high or you're
[47:49] shaking and you can't organize your
[47:51] thoughts in the way you want, none of
[47:53] that helps. you've gone over the line.
[47:55] You're too far on the arousal spectrum
[47:57] towards alert.
[47:59] And it was about 2016 that I realized
[48:03] I'm going to take a significant portion
[48:04] of my lab and work on this problem. I
[48:07] want to find real time tools for
[48:08] mitigating stress. So I started hanging
[48:10] around with people from special
[48:11] operations who sit in ice baths and cold
[48:13] water. And they don't actually do ice
[48:14] baths by the way in the SEAL teams. They
[48:15] spend a lot of time in cold water during
[48:17] their training. And I started talking to
[48:18] people in performance fields in
[48:20] particular neurosurgeons, people who
[48:22] deal with life or death circumstances
[48:23] for many, many years and maintain
[48:25] immense calm. One of my closest
[48:27] childhood friends, he's you should have
[48:28] him on this podcast. It's his name is
[48:30] Dr. Eddie Chang and he's a neurosurgeon
[48:33] at UCSF. He's the chair of neurosurgery
[48:35] and he's brought people out of lockin
[48:37] syndrome to speak through AI. He's also
[48:39] a bioengineer. He's also been my friend
[48:41] since we were 7 years old. And we talk
[48:43] three times a week these days about
[48:45] science. And I actually visited his
[48:47] laboratory and got to see him take a
[48:48] golf ballized tumor out of a guy's
[48:50] forebrain while the guy was awake.
[48:51] >> Wow.
[48:52] >> Eddie is the calmst guy you'll ever
[48:55] meet. Why? Because a movement of less
[48:58] than a millimeter in the wrong direction
[48:59] for him could cost a patient's life.
[49:01] People have ways to calm down in real
[49:04] time. So I teamed up with a colleague,
[49:05] his name is David Spiegel. He's our uh
[49:07] at that time he was our associate chair
[49:09] of psychiatry and he studies hypnosis
[49:11] but clinical hypnosis for smoking
[49:13] sessation pain management and anxiety
[49:16] and I should say mainly Malise Yilz
[49:19] Balban in my lab did the study she built
[49:22] this stress lab with VR and stress and
[49:25] that's a whole other thing and then we
[49:27] did this study where about a hundred or
[49:29] so subjects were fixed with um trackers
[49:32] that measured heart rate and heart rate
[49:33] variability and sleep and people were in
[49:37] one of four groups. They either
[49:38] meditated for 5 minutes a day or they
[49:40] did box breathing. Inhale, hold, exhale,
[49:43] hold for 5 minutes. Okay?
[49:44] >> Like 4 seconds each or something.
[49:46] >> There's a way you can measure it, which
[49:47] is the carbon dioxide tolerance test.
[49:49] Like how well you can control an exhale
[49:51] will tell you a little bit about how
[49:52] stressed you are. When you're stressed,
[49:53] you tend to blow off carbon dioxide very
[49:55] quickly. And when you're less stressed,
[49:57] it tends to shift towards long exhales
[49:59] become easier. So one of the groups, and
[50:01] then I'll say what the mechanism is, did
[50:03] cyclic hyperventilation.
[50:05] Some people call this Wimhof breathing,
[50:07] tumo breathing, pranayyama breathing.
[50:09] It's big inhales,
[50:12] passive exhales. Repeat it for five
[50:14] minutes. [snorts]
[50:15] [sighs]
[50:16] Massively spikes adrenaline, which isn't
[50:19] a bad thing. You're controlling it
[50:21] anyway. Does not spike cortisol very
[50:22] much, incidentally.
[50:24] And when you do those exhales, you're
[50:26] blowing off a lot of carbon dioxide, so
[50:28] it shifts your internal state and tends
[50:30] to make people very alert. or they did
[50:32] there was a fourth condition where they
[50:34] did a double inhale long exhale repeat
[50:37] the so-called physiological sigh. So
[50:40] Jack Feldman at UCLA and some other
[50:42] folks in the 30 1930s had observed that
[50:47] animals and people when they're very
[50:48] relaxed would do this kind of strange
[50:50] pattern of breathing where they would go
[50:52] [sighs]
[50:53] [gasps]
[50:54] it's a double inhale long exhale.
[50:57] Jack's lab discovers there's a brain
[50:59] area called the parapacial nucleus which
[51:01] is specifically there to generate this
[51:05] double inhale exhale pattern in animals
[51:07] and in humans wild nature doesn't make
[51:10] mistakes like that okay turns out there
[51:12] are two breathing centers one is in
[51:15] called the pre-bot singer complex named
[51:17] after a bottle of wine [gasps]
[51:20] pattern of breathing where you inhale
[51:22] exhale what that you alternate this
[51:24] other structure the parapacial nucleus
[51:26] which we all have is involved in anytime
[51:28] you double up the inhales or exhales.
[51:30] And it's involved in breathing while you
[51:31] speak or sing or eat. And it generates
[51:34] these physiological size which it turns
[51:37] out get triggered in environments where
[51:39] there's not enough oxygen or when you
[51:41] get claustrophobic or when you get very
[51:43] stressed, carbon dioxide goes up. Your
[51:46] brain senses that and it triggers the
[51:49] gas reflex. That double inhale maximally
[51:53] inflates the millions, hundreds of
[51:54] millions of little sacks in the lungs.
[51:56] And then when you exhale, you offload
[51:58] the greatest amount of carbon dioxide.
[52:00] So if you just go,
[52:02] you're not offloading as much carbon
[52:04] dioxide. But if you [snorts]
[52:08] [sighs and gasps]
[52:09] second short inhale
[52:11] takes these little sacks in your lungs,
[52:12] which are like balloons at a kids party,
[52:15] and they're empty, but they're fluid
[52:17] lined on the so there's some surface
[52:19] tension inside them. they're sticking
[52:20] together. So, you go, it's the double
[52:23] inhale that opens those up and then you
[52:25] offload the carbon dioxide. Now, that's
[52:28] great. But the real magic of deliberate
[52:31] long exhales is that they slow your
[52:34] heart rate down through a process called
[52:36] respiratory sinus arrhythmia. This is
[52:38] like the most important thing for anyone
[52:40] exed stress, exercise, sleep, and
[52:43] wellness because the wild thing is we
[52:47] have this Vegas nerve. Everyone likes
[52:49] talk about the vagus nerve. It's a
[52:50] massive nerve bundle that collects
[52:52] sensory information and chemical
[52:54] information from the organs of the body
[52:56] and sends it up to the brain. Cool. And
[52:59] it's classified as parasympathetic
[53:01] calming. But you know what's funny?
[53:03] Neuroscientists when they want to wake
[53:05] up and a person during an experiment
[53:08] like a neurosurgery experiment, they
[53:10] stimulate the vagus. A treatment for for
[53:13] depression is to stimulate the Vegas.
[53:15] Guess what that does? makes people more
[53:17] alert. So, it's a mixed nerve. But the
[53:20] really cool part about the vagus is that
[53:23] it's not all ascending.
[53:25] The 85% of the information is going up
[53:28] from the body through the vagus. But
[53:29] there's another pathway too and it goes
[53:31] down and it goes down to your heart and
[53:35] it controls the slowing of the heart
[53:38] rate when you exhale. Heart rate
[53:41] variability is the slowing of your heart
[53:45] rate when you exhale.
[53:48] You want to increase your HRV, do a few
[53:50] deliberate exhales during the day.
[53:52] People go, "How do I get my HRV up?"
[53:54] Well, yeah, you do some V2 max training,
[53:56] right? Like, you know, obviously you do
[53:58] some max heart rate training, some HIT
[53:59] workouts, etc. You really want to
[54:01] increase your HRV in sleep and while
[54:03] waking, just do some deliberate exhales
[54:05] during the day because that's the
[54:07] parasympathetic, the calming arm of the
[54:09] Vegas pushing down
[54:12] on your heart rate. And all of the
[54:14] groups I described saw benefits, but it
[54:17] was the people who did these
[54:18] physiological size that benefited the
[54:19] most. So then I started exploring, well,
[54:23] how fast does heart rate slow down with
[54:25] physiological size? And it turns out you
[54:26] don't need to do it for 5 minutes. Do it
[54:28] once. You just go, "Okay, you're feeling
[54:30] stressed. You're going on stage. You're
[54:31] waiting for a diagnosis. You're you
[54:33] don't feel you feel too alert relative
[54:36] to how you want to feel for whatever
[54:37] reason, good or bad. You're about to get
[54:39] married, right? You whatever.
[54:41] >> You just
[54:44] [sighs]
[54:45] [gasps]
[54:47] until your lungs are empty and it's
[54:50] immediate."
[54:52] And I for me that was immensely
[54:53] gratifying. Yes. Because it's fun to
[54:55] publish papers. if we publish it and
[54:56] sell reports and Meliss gets let's the
[54:59] lion share the credit for that there
[55:00] were other people on the paper but she
[55:01] did so much hard work from that and
[55:03] analysis I was so gratified because I'm
[55:05] like ah finally like if I didn't sleep
[55:07] well or if I something stressful even
[55:10] though I slept well I can calm myself
[55:11] down like like that
[55:14] >> I thought real time tools for stress are
[55:16] what we all need the interesting thing
[55:19] is that you can also raise your stress
[55:22] threshold and a lot of the stress
[55:23] mitigation chapter is also about how to
[55:25] do that we need to train for discomfort
[55:28] so that the little things don't feel so
[55:30] big.
[55:31] >> Yeah,
[55:31] >> this is also important in survival
[55:33] situations, right? You need to be able
[55:35] to think very clearly about what order
[55:38] of operations to take, what direction to
[55:40] escape through. This is not about like
[55:43] setting yourself to tolerate more pain
[55:45] and abuse. This is about the exact
[55:47] opposite. So, this is about safety. This
[55:49] is about self-p protection. And this is
[55:50] about noticing when you're when we're
[55:52] alert but calm. We can notice the subtle
[55:55] ripples in people around us who needs
[55:58] [clears throat] our attention who we
[56:00] really don't like
[56:01] >> but we never really realized it. You can
[56:04] notice that stuff.
[56:05] >> A lot of people they wake up at like 2
[56:06] 3:00 a.m. in the morning.
[56:07] >> Yeah.
[56:07] >> In the middle of the night and they
[56:09] don't really know why. They don't know
[56:10] how to get back to bed. They start
[56:11] worrying and remuner remunerating.
[56:13] >> Very very common.
[56:14] >> Yeah. So what they can use this as a
[56:15] tool in that moment
[56:16] >> definitely 10 long long deliberate
[56:18] exhales. There's also this really crazy
[56:20] trick that I put in the book has
[56:22] indirect scientific support. You want it
[56:24] like best way to fall back asleep. You
[56:26] want to hear this crazy this is so nuts.
[56:28] To fall asleep or to fall back asleep,
[56:30] you need to stop thinking about your
[56:31] body position. H turns out there's a
[56:35] direct relationship through a few steps,
[56:38] but there's a dedicated circuit I should
[56:39] say between your eyes, their movements,
[56:42] and your cerebellum, which is involved
[56:44] in propriception and balance and a
[56:46] number of other things. We call we call
[56:48] the cerebellum the mini brain, but it's
[56:49] this this guy back here. We really get
[56:52] nerdy. These hyperfoliated loes back
[56:54] here. Foliators are just folds. It's
[56:56] just nerd speak for foldy bumpy. It's
[56:58] involved in balance. It's involved in
[57:01] learning. It's actually very important
[57:03] for generating and responding to the
[57:04] error signals between what you're trying
[57:06] to do and what you can do. That error
[57:08] signal turns out to be one of the most
[57:10] important things for generating learning
[57:12] to make errors through genuine attempts.
[57:14] And your cerebellum is critical for
[57:16] that. It's also involved in timing. So,
[57:18] you need to kind of turn off your
[57:21] recognition of your own limbs to fall
[57:23] asleep. How do you do that? You know
[57:26] what works with babies? Walk back and
[57:28] forth at a particular pace. And this was
[57:30] defined in this Japanese study. And have
[57:32] people swing the baby back and forth
[57:34] just gently as they do it. And the baby
[57:36] falls asleep. Guess what? Parents figure
[57:38] out the exact cadence with a very small
[57:41] margin of error through trial and error
[57:44] to figure out how to get their kid to
[57:45] sleep. It's like a natural experiment.
[57:46] It's been looked at in the lab.
[57:48] >> Turns out when you rock back and forth,
[57:51] your eyes move. This is a very, very
[57:55] ancient system that exists in all jawed
[57:57] animals, including us, that as we move
[57:58] through space, walking, running,
[58:00] swimming, whatever. The world is gliding
[58:02] by, what we call optic flow. You would
[58:05] see the world blurry. But you have a
[58:07] compensatory eye movement that
[58:10] unbeknownst to you because of a
[58:12] connection between your eyes and these
[58:15] brain stem areas whose names aren't
[58:16] important right now and your cerebellum
[58:19] creates a visual slip error and your
[58:22] eyes automatically offset that error. So
[58:24] when I go like this,
[58:27] the world seems stable. And it turns out
[58:29] there's a pattern of eye movement that
[58:31] can shut down the propriceptive circuits
[58:34] in the cerebellum make you forget your
[58:37] limb position and it greatly facilitates
[58:41] the speed at which you fall back asleep.
[58:43] >> Okay. You're going to close your eyes.
[58:46] Great. You're going to move your eyes
[58:48] slowly to one side underneath your
[58:50] eyelids, then to the other side.
[58:52] >> Mhm.
[58:52] >> Then up, then down. Now you're going to
[58:56] move them counterclockwise in a
[58:57] circleish
[58:59] and then clockwise in a circleish. And
[59:01] now still with your eyes closed, you're
[59:03] going to kind of point them towards your
[59:04] nostrils. You're not going to cross your
[59:05] eyes and you're going to do a long
[59:06] exhale.
[59:09] Great. That done two or three times
[59:12] generally has people waking up the next
[59:14] morning and like wild. What happens?
[59:17] What happened is your propriceptive
[59:19] circuits are shut down. Now, that's kind
[59:22] of fun to do and you'll see and it costs
[59:24] nothing and it generally works. Some
[59:26] people, if they're really, really
[59:27] stressed, it might not work, but this is
[59:29] what I do if I wake up in the middle of
[59:30] the night. I usually go to the bathroom,
[59:32] get back in bed, do long exhale
[59:34] breathing, and I do that and I wake up
[59:35] the next morning. It really works well.
[59:37] So well, in fact, that there's a company
[59:40] based on work done from two MIT
[59:42] scientists. They have a sleep mask that
[59:46] generates this pattern of eye movements
[59:48] through a little electrode behind the
[59:51] ear. It just like and it stimulates the
[59:54] extraocular muscles in just the right
[59:56] patterns. And I tried it and you fall
[59:58] right asleep.
[59:58] >> You're joking.
[59:59] >> No.
[1:00:00] >> And it monitors REM.
[1:00:02] >> No, you know, we monitor REM through
[1:00:04] like an eight sleep or a Whoop or some
[1:00:06] other device through changes in heart
[1:00:08] rate and breathing. This is direct
[1:00:10] monitoring of REM.
[1:00:13] It's wild. And it can control your eye
[1:00:16] movements to induce more REM if you want
[1:00:18] more REM. There will be a time very soon
[1:00:20] like within the next 12 to 14 months
[1:00:22] when because of devices like the one
[1:00:25] they and others are making when you're
[1:00:26] going to be able to say, you know what,
[1:00:28] I want 2 hours of deep sleep. I want 2
[1:00:31] hours of REM across a 6-hour night
[1:00:33] because I can't afford to sleep my
[1:00:34] ration of eight. And you will be
[1:00:36] generating those eye movements during
[1:00:38] sleep in order to facilitate, not force,
[1:00:41] but facilitate those patterns of sleep.
[1:00:45] I've spent the last decade building and
[1:00:46] investing in companies. And so often the
[1:00:48] conversation around marketing budgets
[1:00:50] follows the exact same pattern. The
[1:00:52] budget gets approved, but then the
[1:00:53] results don't come back. And most of the
[1:00:55] time, the creative pitch and the offer
[1:00:57] is fine. The problem lies with the
[1:01:00] audience. Ads reach people who will
[1:01:02] never buy or refer, nor do they have the
[1:01:05] power to sign off anything at all. And
[1:01:06] this is why so much budget gets wasted.
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[1:01:10] podcast, lets you reach them
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[1:01:43] Keep this to yourself. Terms and
[1:01:44] conditions apply. I want to speak to the
[1:01:46] business owners listening and watching
[1:01:48] right now. I know what it's like to be
[1:01:50] personally responsible for every
[1:01:51] decision. I founded my first company at
[1:01:53] 21 years old and honestly the pressure
[1:01:55] can be immense. It's the kind of mental
[1:01:58] load that takes its toll below the
[1:01:59] surface. I recently did some tests
[1:02:01] through our sponsor function which got
[1:02:03] me thinking about that invisible impact.
[1:02:05] I found that I had low levels of
[1:02:07] omega-3s. I had deficient levels of
[1:02:10] vitamin D probably because I sit inside
[1:02:12] this dark room all day. And that has
[1:02:15] totally changed how I construct my day
[1:02:16] going forward. I get up in the morning
[1:02:18] and the first thing I now do is I go for
[1:02:19] a walk outside in the sunshine. in part
[1:02:21] to help my vitamin D levels increase,
[1:02:23] but also because it helps to reset my
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[1:02:41] to join and use code DOAC25
[1:02:44] for a $25 credit. Did I hear you say
[1:02:47] that there's a peptide that can help
[1:02:49] your REM sleep? Yes, I have no
[1:02:50] affiliation to to it because um it's
[1:02:52] called pinealon. I I will tell you in
[1:02:55] the book I do not talk about hormone
[1:02:57] therapies, peptides or psychedelics.
[1:03:00] The book is about what I know for sure.
[1:03:02] Hormones, peptide therapies and
[1:03:04] psychedelics are at the front edge right
[1:03:06] now. I'm very much involved in
[1:03:09] looking at the research, talking to the
[1:03:10] people that are doing these things. And
[1:03:12] yes, I I dabble in these things, right?
[1:03:13] I'm very interested. I experiment on
[1:03:15] myself and I'm an adult. I can do that.
[1:03:18] So, pinealon is very interesting because
[1:03:21] I found that if I took an itty bitty bit
[1:03:24] every third night, I tried this
[1:03:26] experiment for about a month. I got
[1:03:28] massive amounts of REM sleep that night,
[1:03:30] but also on subsequent nights. I hosted
[1:03:33] a Dr. Abud Bakri on my podcast who's in
[1:03:36] my view is the most knowledgeable
[1:03:39] physician on the topic of peptides.
[1:03:42] >> Oh, I saw that episode. It's amazing.
[1:03:43] >> He's amazing. And I think you guys would
[1:03:45] have an even better conversation,
[1:03:46] frankly. But in any event, he tells me
[1:03:49] that pinealon is potentially involved.
[1:03:52] There are some data supporting its use
[1:03:54] for encouraging pinealy health. So the
[1:03:57] actual health of the pineal pineal
[1:03:59] gland.
[1:03:59] >> Yeah. The pineal gland which makes
[1:04:01] melatonin and it does other things too.
[1:04:02] So I think pinealon is a great tool to
[1:04:05] use sporadically. I don't use it
[1:04:07] regularly. You know as long as we're
[1:04:08] talking about peptides I do think that
[1:04:10] there's I mean I'm peptide curious is
[1:04:13] you know I'm from the Bay Area called
[1:04:14] peptide [laughter] curious. I have not
[1:04:15] tried any GLPS yet, but I'm getting
[1:04:18] curious about very very low dose
[1:04:19] tepatide or reatrite.
[1:04:21] >> I'm peptide curious, but I'm scared.
[1:04:23] >> Yeah,
[1:04:24] >> I'm scared because I don't You've got to
[1:04:26] inject most of them, right?
[1:04:27] >> It's a tiny little thing, you know. Um,
[1:04:30] >> what's your take on peptides as like a c
[1:04:32] It's a big category, isn't it? Bloody
[1:04:33] everything seems to be a peptide these
[1:04:35] days.
[1:04:35] >> Here's my opinion. It will be popular
[1:04:36] with some people, unpopular with others,
[1:04:38] but
[1:04:41] obviously as with hormone therapies or
[1:04:43] anything else or supplements like sleep,
[1:04:46] hydration, sunlight, exercises,
[1:04:48] nutrition, like you need all that stuff.
[1:04:49] The behavioral tools are the foundation.
[1:04:52] >> Great things can happen when you build
[1:04:53] on a foundation.
[1:04:55] Okay, things can happen when you build
[1:04:57] on non-foundation, but it doesn't last
[1:04:59] long. But the combination of the two can
[1:05:00] be pretty awesome, especially if
[1:05:02] somebody has the means and the interest.
[1:05:04] So the GLPS
[1:05:06] >> Mhm.
[1:05:07] >> which are the weight loss drugs.
[1:05:08] >> The weight loss drugs. I think Redat
[1:05:10] True Tide is amazing. It's not just a
[1:05:11] GLP. It also hits the glucagon and GIP
[1:05:14] pathway. This is the one that Lily
[1:05:15] invested. Eli Lily invested hundreds of
[1:05:18] millions of dollars if not more into
[1:05:20] researching and it's went through phase
[1:05:22] three. People lost onethird
[1:05:24] approximately of their body weight in
[1:05:26] about a year or so.
[1:05:27] >> Is that a is that a good thing for
[1:05:29] everybody?
[1:05:30] >> No. So what's happening is people are
[1:05:32] Okay. So the psychedelic
[1:05:35] community talked about micro doing
[1:05:38] >> that micro doing phrase has been now
[1:05:41] incorporated into GLPs and people
[1:05:43] realized they could bypass a lot of the
[1:05:45] side effects and the cost by micro doing
[1:05:49] GLPs. These are anecdotes so I want to
[1:05:51] be clear and I'm not pushing peptides or
[1:05:53] selling peptides. I say quite
[1:05:54] comfortably. I have a friend who's very
[1:05:56] very skeptical about anything that's not
[1:05:58] fully FDA approved. I don't want to hear
[1:05:59] about your biohacking nonsense. this
[1:06:01] kind of thing, but she has chronic
[1:06:02] fatigue syndrome. And she talked to me
[1:06:05] about like what can I do? She's seen all
[1:06:06] these physicians. Mind you, these are
[1:06:08] physicians at Stanford. These are
[1:06:09] physicians at UCSF. Like she's and she's
[1:06:11] a very smart, nuanced person, but she
[1:06:15] has a wall there.
[1:06:17] She's started taking a very low, very
[1:06:20] low dose of tratide once every 10 days.
[1:06:23] >> And trite is
[1:06:24] >> it's one of the GLP drugs. So we could
[1:06:26] talk about Mjarompic, but it's it's not
[1:06:29] >> it's not touching GIP or glucagon. It's
[1:06:31] mainly just increasing levels of of
[1:06:33] glucagon like peptide which is this
[1:06:36] thing that suppresses hunger and
[1:06:37] appetite but also seems to lower
[1:06:38] inflammation. Yes, there are concerns
[1:06:40] about vision loss in people who have
[1:06:42] certain structural abnormalities of the
[1:06:43] eye. Yes, there are concerns about
[1:06:45] apathy if people take too much of them.
[1:06:47] You know, it seems to reduce alcohol
[1:06:48] craving for people that like alcohol
[1:06:50] >> and sugar craving more generally. And it
[1:06:52] can reduce craving for everything if you
[1:06:55] take enough of it.
[1:06:56] >> Yeah. Keep in mind these drugs are
[1:06:57] ramping up levels of GLP a thousandfold
[1:07:00] or more. Thousandfold or more. The body
[1:07:03] has never seen this level of of glucagon
[1:07:07] like peptide in the history of humans.
[1:07:09] And remember this whole thing was
[1:07:10] discovered because a smart biologist was
[1:07:12] studying why helila monsters, these
[1:07:14] reptiles that I think are ugly, he
[1:07:16] probably thinks they're beautiful, only
[1:07:17] have to eat a couple times a year. It's
[1:07:19] because they make a peptide called
[1:07:21] extendin which turns out to be
[1:07:22] homologous to glucagon like peptide one
[1:07:24] in humans. The reason these reptiles
[1:07:27] don't have to eat very often is because
[1:07:28] they always feel satiated. Why? Because
[1:07:30] they have very high levels of glucagon
[1:07:31] like peptide circulating. We don't. And
[1:07:35] it works through two mechanisms. Tells
[1:07:37] the brain mechanisms for satiety to ramp
[1:07:40] up their activity. And so your brain is
[1:07:42] telling you, I don't really want food.
[1:07:44] And it also makes people feel full,
[1:07:45] which is the basis of some of the side
[1:07:46] effects of nausea and other things. So
[1:07:49] she will tell you, oh my god, my
[1:07:51] energy's back. My inflammation markers
[1:07:53] are way lower. I I'm not cured, but I
[1:07:56] feel so much better. Very, very hard to
[1:07:58] dispute that kind of experience if
[1:08:01] you're the patient. We could talk about
[1:08:02] safety and sourcing and, you know, etc.
[1:08:05] But anyway, so people are starting to
[1:08:08] realize they can micro dose stuff, but
[1:08:10] you won't see randomized control trials
[1:08:11] that are going to push this kind of
[1:08:13] notion. You can tell it's terrible for
[1:08:14] business, right?
[1:08:16] >> So then there are things like pinealon
[1:08:18] for sleep, epalon perhaps for DNA
[1:08:21] repair. I haven't dabbled with that one
[1:08:23] yet. And then there are the so-called
[1:08:24] growth hormone secrets. So we're talking
[1:08:26] about tessamellin, hypermearin, cjc1 uh
[1:08:30] 1295. These will promote more growth
[1:08:33] hormone release and sleep. They will
[1:08:35] have a negative feedback effect where
[1:08:38] they're going to shut down some of your
[1:08:39] own production and people get a bit
[1:08:41] leaner and they claim their deep sleep
[1:08:43] is better and it can increase insulin
[1:08:45] sensitivity. I'll tell you, I've tried
[1:08:47] serellin. I've tried a few of these
[1:08:49] other ones. They nuke my REM sleep. They
[1:08:51] give me a ton of deep sleep. I don't
[1:08:53] like them. I've tried pineal and I'll
[1:08:55] take it now and again. I don't do it
[1:08:56] right now. And BPC is the one that gets
[1:08:59] everybody talking because body
[1:09:00] protection compound 157 is made in the
[1:09:02] gut. People claim, and I do think their
[1:09:05] claims are accurate, that they feel,
[1:09:08] notice what I said right there, is they
[1:09:10] feel as if their recovery from injury
[1:09:12] was accelerated. And I believe them
[1:09:14] because I've spent a lot of time with
[1:09:16] the animal data whether it's an Achilles
[1:09:18] tendon transsection or nerve regrowth or
[1:09:20] or tendon or ligament regrowth and
[1:09:22] vascular. Yes, it does seem to
[1:09:24] accelerate healing across the board. But
[1:09:26] the concern is you could vascularize
[1:09:27] tumors. Now
[1:09:30] would I take it? No, I don't have an
[1:09:31] injury right now. I don't have any
[1:09:32] reason to take it. So I don't think
[1:09:35] people should say should I take
[1:09:36] peptides. You should ask what effect in
[1:09:38] your life are you trying to achieve?
[1:09:40] Right? And then maybe BPC makes sense.
[1:09:43] Maybe it doesn't. You're not going to
[1:09:44] find many clinical trials on it. It has
[1:09:47] a very very high maybe infinite, you
[1:09:49] know, LD50, meaning no one has really
[1:09:52] figured out how much can kill you. But
[1:09:54] that's not a good kind of way to run
[1:09:55] your life. And
[1:09:58] you know, it's somewhere between a drug
[1:10:00] and a supplement.
[1:10:00] >> I think this is one of the concerns or
[1:10:02] one of the conversations I often hear
[1:10:03] around JLPs at the moment is that
[1:10:05] they've just not been long around long
[1:10:07] enough for us to know the side effect
[1:10:08] profile over a long period of time. Is
[1:10:10] there any truth to that?
[1:10:11] Well, do you want to be in the
[1:10:13] experiment or out of the you want to be
[1:10:14] in the control group or you want to be
[1:10:16] in the experimental group? Well, for
[1:10:17] somebody who has like serious obesity
[1:10:19] issues, the tepatides and mjaros and
[1:10:22] ompics and reatride could potentially
[1:10:24] save their life. Okay. Vision loss is a
[1:10:28] serious consideration. Although, I'll go
[1:10:29] on record, you know, vision is my home
[1:10:33] and I'll just be direct. I don't tap
[1:10:35] dance at all and I'm not trying to start
[1:10:37] any battles and David and I can talk
[1:10:38] about it uh directly. David Sinclair
[1:10:41] recently went on Rogan and said, you
[1:10:42] know, the amount of of blindness caused
[1:10:44] by GLPs has doubled which scared
[1:10:46] everybody.
[1:10:47] >> I heard that.
[1:10:48] >> But there's a structural abnormality in
[1:10:50] the eye of a subset of people for whom
[1:10:52] that's true. And it's a great idea to
[1:10:54] get your eyes scanned. But yeah, so as
[1:10:55] the ah comes apart.
[1:10:57] >> Yeah.
[1:10:57] >> Oh man, this is fun. It's a good thing
[1:10:59] only come on here every once in a while
[1:11:00] because I do this I do this all day
[1:11:02] every day. So you know, light obviously
[1:11:04] comes in. You got that cornea on the
[1:11:05] outside of the eye and the lens focuses
[1:11:07] the the light onto your retina which is
[1:11:09] this
[1:11:11] pie crust like structure that lines the
[1:11:13] back of your eyes. It's an amazing
[1:11:14] structure you know three cell layers
[1:11:17] thick catches light absorbs light. The
[1:11:20] photo receptors turn that into
[1:11:22] electricity through photo transduction.
[1:11:25] Amazing. Then that electricity is cast
[1:11:28] forward to a set of cells that line the
[1:11:30] inner part of the retina that we call
[1:11:31] retinal ganglion cells. And then they
[1:11:33] send their wires, their so-called axons
[1:11:35] out the optic nerve into your brain.
[1:11:37] They course along the bottom of the
[1:11:38] brain and they enter your brain,
[1:11:40] including your circadian clock. You get
[1:11:44] vision, you get sleepwake rhythms, you
[1:11:46] get hormone regulation by light. You get
[1:11:48] it's just incredible. Well, where they
[1:11:50] exit the eye is called the optic nerve
[1:11:52] head. And if the optic nerve head is a
[1:11:56] nice nicely shaped and sized tube for
[1:11:58] them to exit, great. Too big, that's not
[1:12:00] good. But too tight's not good either
[1:12:03] because those wires get pinched off.
[1:12:05] This is part of what happens in the
[1:12:06] disease glaucoma which is the eye
[1:12:09] pressure goes up and those axons die
[1:12:11] away. These cells die away and people
[1:12:12] it's the second leading cause of
[1:12:14] blindness in the world. So in some
[1:12:16] people who have a structural
[1:12:17] abnormality, a structural feature of the
[1:12:21] optic nerve head here where these these
[1:12:23] wires leave the eye, it does seem that
[1:12:25] the GLPS put them at greater risk for
[1:12:28] causing some cinching off of those of
[1:12:30] those cells and and there have been
[1:12:32] cases of blindness. But the thing that
[1:12:34] wasn't really cool, David, is this. He
[1:12:37] is developing some very potentially
[1:12:40] impressive tools to rescue vision in
[1:12:42] glaucoma, etc. But meanwhile, GLPS are
[1:12:46] not making many people go blind. Okay?
[1:12:48] You know, that's about as true as
[1:12:50] masturbation is making people go blind.
[1:12:52] I'm not saying you should do either one.
[1:12:54] That's your personal choice. But the
[1:12:57] point here is that he scared the
[1:12:59] daylights out of people, pun intended,
[1:13:03] telling them that they can make you go
[1:13:05] blind. But everyone should get this area
[1:13:07] of their eye image. And it turns out
[1:13:08] it's very easy. You can go to your
[1:13:10] opthalmologist or optometrist, ask for
[1:13:12] an eye pressure test. Usually insurance
[1:13:13] covers it, but definitely worth paying
[1:13:15] for.
[1:13:16] >> That was number five.
[1:13:18] >> Number five,
[1:13:18] >> we got into peptides. Yeah.
[1:13:19] >> Yeah. We've done a question.
[1:13:20] >> Good thing we're not talking about
[1:13:21] psychedelics. We'll do that another
[1:13:22] time. We won't do them another time. Um
[1:13:24] I don't do psychedelics publicly.
[1:13:26] >> Listen, I'm open-minded. I did DM. I
[1:13:28] don't care.
[1:13:29] >> Not as openminded as you be if we do
[1:13:30] psychedelics. No.
[1:13:31] >> True.
[1:13:32] >> Uh you took you took DMT
[1:13:33] >> in a far away land where it was very
[1:13:35] legal cuz you know, I sit here and talk
[1:13:37] about these things and psychedelics. And
[1:13:38] I actually did work in a psychedelics
[1:13:39] company for about a year. But it was
[1:13:41] deeply deeply fascinating. And I the
[1:13:42] reason I was compelled by it is the
[1:13:45] efficacy as it relates to mental health
[1:13:46] and the studies being done out of London
[1:13:49] >> around things like, you know, psilocybin
[1:13:51] and ibeane and
[1:13:52] >> DMT treatments. And I just thought, wow,
[1:13:54] you know, it's unbelievable some of the
[1:13:56] clinical data. I'd love to learn more.
[1:13:58] So I did a psilocybin and then I did DMT
[1:14:00] and it was really just
[1:14:02] >> I've not done DMT.
[1:14:04] >> You've never done DMT?
[1:14:05] >> No. No. I've done um clinical um MDMA
[1:14:09] and psilocybin. I think I'm done with
[1:14:10] that. Not because I had a negative
[1:14:12] experience, but I got what I wanted out
[1:14:13] of it and um I found it to be immensely
[1:14:16] beneficial.
[1:14:18] >> The combination of therapy going in,
[1:14:20] therapy during and therapy coming out of
[1:14:22] of combination MDMAs psilocybin.
[1:14:24] >> Do you know what it it's one of the
[1:14:26] things that made me think a lot about
[1:14:27] religion?
[1:14:28] >> Mhm. [clears throat] was having a DMT
[1:14:30] experience where what I experienced felt
[1:14:32] indistinguishable from this reality in
[1:14:34] terms of the vividness and the the
[1:14:35] realness of it and me just pondering
[1:14:37] this this concept that a tiny little
[1:14:39] inhale of smoke could completely change
[1:14:42] my material reality. So therefore I
[1:14:45] concluded that my material reality is is
[1:14:48] literally but I mean tell me if my
[1:14:50] logic's wrong is a small amount of
[1:14:52] chemicals being uninterrupted. Does that
[1:14:55] make logical sense?
[1:14:56] >> Yeah. So I I think about this way too
[1:14:58] much. I guess we are going to talk about
[1:14:59] psychedelics, [laughter] reality and
[1:15:00] religion. Um couple short statements
[1:15:02] about this. You're I fascinated by this.
[1:15:05] I'd love to hear you talk more about it.
[1:15:06] But here are a couple ways that I think
[1:15:08] about it in a non um dismissive way.
[1:15:13] Most all of biology is just
[1:15:15] compartmentalized chemistry. So whether
[1:15:18] or not it's the flow of electricity
[1:15:20] along neural circuits to generate
[1:15:21] tenacity for instance or learning,
[1:15:23] you're just guiding chemistry in
[1:15:25] particular ways. Okay, that's not a way
[1:15:27] to trivialize it. It's kind of a way to
[1:15:28] think about it. There are two ways that
[1:15:31] you can change brain function, behavior,
[1:15:33] and chemistry. One is mechanical.
[1:15:37] I can breathe differently. I can get a
[1:15:40] massage, right? I could poke myself with
[1:15:42] a knife. Okay? So, there are mechanical
[1:15:44] forces that change our physiology. And
[1:15:47] then there are chemical forces,
[1:15:49] pharmarmacology, things we eat, and
[1:15:51] chemicals within us, serotonin, etc.
[1:15:53] That's really it. There's no other
[1:15:55] thing. In many ways, you're absolutely
[1:15:57] right. It's compartmentalized chemistry
[1:16:00] and mechanics and other chemicals are
[1:16:02] what control that chemistry. And
[1:16:05] I think organizing one's thoughts
[1:16:07] sometimes in that way can be helpful
[1:16:09] because you realize the stress response
[1:16:11] is really just a bunch of chemicals
[1:16:13] happening in certain places and so on. I
[1:16:16] personally am intrigued about the idea
[1:16:18] of things outside of our conscious
[1:16:21] understanding in biology that maybe
[1:16:23] things like DMT give us access to or
[1:16:25] maybe just prayer gives us access to or
[1:16:27] faith gives us access to. And it comes
[1:16:30] from my recognition both as a
[1:16:32] neuroscientist and just a human who's
[1:16:34] been alive for 50 years and some change
[1:16:37] that our biology and psychology, let's
[1:16:41] mold those together, are
[1:16:44] extraordinarily good at accomplishing
[1:16:47] certain things.
[1:16:49] But there are certain things that are
[1:16:51] outside the abilities of our psychology
[1:16:55] and biology. And if we are asking our
[1:17:00] psychology and biology to satisfy
[1:17:02] something that our psychology and
[1:17:04] biology simply cannot satisfy, we're
[1:17:07] going to miss out on a lot of potential
[1:17:09] meaning in life. And what I to be very
[1:17:12] direct about it like at the point where
[1:17:13] I decide to really embrace the idea of
[1:17:15] faith of a god, right? That there are
[1:17:18] powers outside of human understanding
[1:17:22] that can be very useful.
[1:17:25] everything got better. It It relieved me
[1:17:28] of the pressure to control everything
[1:17:29] internally and externally. And I find it
[1:17:32] not just intriguing, but absolutely
[1:17:36] captivating that
[1:17:38] a force outside of us, some people call
[1:17:41] it God, the universe, right? Some people
[1:17:44] might think it's Jesus. Some people
[1:17:46] might think it's something else might
[1:17:48] actually hold some power in how we could
[1:17:53] potentially behave, be better, be
[1:17:55] Wouldn't it be wonderful if there's this
[1:17:57] thing planted in us or some of us, which
[1:18:00] is a question about things outside of us
[1:18:02] that if we were to embrace
[1:18:05] could allow us to get to a better place
[1:18:07] as a species? Why would we think that a
[1:18:09] a technology like AI would do that? AI
[1:18:12] is wonderful, but why would we think
[1:18:13] that it would come from computers?
[1:18:14] That's of us, right? Why would we think
[1:18:16] it would come from anything that humans
[1:18:18] and only humans could do? To me, the
[1:18:21] embracing the notion of a God and having
[1:18:23] faith, which by the way is about having
[1:18:25] doubt, but still doing the the things,
[1:18:27] the practices, prayer is like to me one
[1:18:31] of the most liberating and educating
[1:18:35] thing not just about stuff of God in the
[1:18:39] universe, but about the human brain.
[1:18:41] Okay, I've got some questions.
[1:18:42] >> Yeah, I mean it's like we're not meant
[1:18:43] to solve this on our own.
[1:18:46] >> Do you believe in God?
[1:18:47] >> Absolutely.
[1:18:48] >> When did God come into your life?
[1:18:50] >> Very early, but I was very
[1:18:55] good at suppressing the notion that it
[1:18:57] was real. Like I would pray in private.
[1:19:01] I would hide it and um and not just in
[1:19:03] bad times. And then I think I lived
[1:19:06] enough and observed enough hardship.
[1:19:09] We've talked about some of this on a
[1:19:10] previous podcast. I talk a little bit
[1:19:11] about that in the book, but but I
[1:19:13] observed it out there, too, not just in
[1:19:15] my own life that I I started to realize,
[1:19:18] especially if you stick your hands in
[1:19:19] enough brains. And you see my good
[1:19:22] friend Eddie Chang record from the brain
[1:19:24] of a awake human and remove a tumor and
[1:19:27] save that person's life. And you also
[1:19:30] realize that brain areas are controlling
[1:19:32] things because when they're stimulated,
[1:19:33] that person feels and responds in a
[1:19:35] certain way. You realize that we're not
[1:19:36] all meat and potatoes in there. there's
[1:19:38] something
[1:19:40] else. But I'm not sure that it all comes
[1:19:43] from us. It's it's sort of hard to
[1:19:45] explain. The the best way I kind of
[1:19:47] wriggle out of this is that I I brought
[1:19:50] my dad on my podcast. My dad and I for
[1:19:53] many years had a choppy relationship. We
[1:19:54] have a great relationship now. He's 83
[1:19:56] years old. He's super vigorous. He loves
[1:19:59] ideas. He's into quantum, you know,
[1:20:01] quantum computing. And he he's a
[1:20:04] theoretical physicist, right? And I
[1:20:07] asked him to explain quantum mechanics.
[1:20:09] I go, "Okay, like tell my audience how
[1:20:10] relativity works." He worked on chaos
[1:20:12] theory. Okay, tell us how chaos works.
[1:20:15] And he said, "I'll do that, but you have
[1:20:17] to understand that one of the most
[1:20:19] important things about understanding
[1:20:21] quantum mechanics is that early on you
[1:20:23] are told and you learn that the human
[1:20:26] brain can't wrap its head around quantum
[1:20:28] mechanics with logic, with the with
[1:20:31] human understanding. You have to rely on
[1:20:33] the math." And he says anyone who talks
[1:20:35] about the quantum field who can't show
[1:20:37] you the math, can't show you the proofs,
[1:20:38] is lying. He loves it when people are
[1:20:40] like, "Oh, the quantum this and the
[1:20:42] quantum that is often is in like the
[1:20:43] meditative communities, but others too."
[1:20:45] And he goes, "People throw this word
[1:20:46] around because very few people actually
[1:20:48] understand quantum biology. There's gaps
[1:20:50] in there's some logic, but there's gaps
[1:20:52] in their logic that the math doesn't
[1:20:54] line up with.
[1:20:55] >> And the math doesn't lie." So what he
[1:20:58] was saying and we were having a
[1:20:59] discussion about God and he said yeah at
[1:21:01] some point if you're going to have faith
[1:21:03] in a higher power God you have to depart
[1:21:06] this notion that your logical brain can
[1:21:08] go from A to B to C and boom you're
[1:21:11] there but in quantum mechanics it's the
[1:21:13] same thing but on the basis of quantum
[1:21:15] mechanics you can build stuff you can
[1:21:17] engineer stuff in the real world like
[1:21:19] that red light or a rocket
[1:21:21] >> are you saying but you don't know all of
[1:21:23] this
[1:21:24] >> there's no math to prove this thing that
[1:21:27] I call my the existence of God. There's
[1:21:30] no math and it's not worth torturing
[1:21:32] yourself over. What I believe is worth
[1:21:35] torturing yourself over. And there's
[1:21:37] also great beauty in there is embracing
[1:21:40] the practice of prayer, embracing the
[1:21:42] questions and the like opening the
[1:21:44] aperture of your beliefs just for a
[1:21:46] moment going maybe I'm going to just
[1:21:47] believe in God for 10 seconds.
[1:21:49] >> See what that's like. And I started to
[1:21:51] experience beauty and experience um
[1:21:55] peace around not trying to control
[1:21:58] things that obviously were not under my
[1:21:59] control, not just within me, but in
[1:22:01] other people. And I really started to
[1:22:03] see what I could only describe as
[1:22:05] miracles. And by miracles, I mean I
[1:22:09] would pray for some indication of what
[1:22:12] the right path might be on something
[1:22:14] where it wasn't clear to me. And then
[1:22:17] two or three days later something would
[1:22:18] happen which would like seem almost
[1:22:21] completely unrelated and the answer
[1:22:23] would come in that thing. And then I
[1:22:25] just locked in. I'm like listen I'm a
[1:22:27] disciplined guy when I really want to
[1:22:28] be. I'm going to pray every night before
[1:22:30] I go to sleep. If I fall asleep I'll get
[1:22:32] out of bed and pray when I if I wake up
[1:22:34] in the middle of the night. I've not
[1:22:35] missed a night in nearly 3 years. I was
[1:22:37] recently invited up to Stanford to give
[1:22:39] a talk with Arthur Brooks who's a
[1:22:40] lifetime Catholic. He's in mass every
[1:22:42] morning. You know, he and I have very
[1:22:44] different experiences of God and
[1:22:45] religion. My family was mixed religion.
[1:22:47] I got to sit up there and just say,
[1:22:49] "Listen, I'm gonna tell you that I for
[1:22:52] sure am the person who's least
[1:22:53] knowledgeable, least versed in this
[1:22:55] room. But what I can tell you is my
[1:22:57] experience with prayer. What I can tell
[1:22:59] you is what I've observed in myself when
[1:23:03] I open the aperture for faith. The
[1:23:06] reason I did that talk is because our
[1:23:08] former director of neurosciences at
[1:23:10] Stanford um had written to me and said,
[1:23:12] 'I think you should consider talking to
[1:23:14] this group. And he did some of the most
[1:23:15] important experiments in the history of
[1:23:18] neuroscience linking neuronal activity
[1:23:20] to perception. He really showed that if
[1:23:22] you stimulate certain brain areas,
[1:23:23] people perceive things a certain way
[1:23:24] regardless of what's happening out in
[1:23:26] the world. Mhm.
[1:23:27] >> Like there's a brain area I could
[1:23:28] trigger right now and I could show you a
[1:23:29] movie of a bunch of dots moving up and
[1:23:32] everyone here would be like, "They're
[1:23:33] moving up." And if I tickled the right
[1:23:35] neuron in your brain, you'd say,
[1:23:37] "They're going down." And like that's
[1:23:39] wild. Then I turn it off and you say,
[1:23:40] "Oh yeah, of course they're going up."
[1:23:42] Your understanding of the world is an
[1:23:44] abstraction
[1:23:46] that occurs inside your skull on the
[1:23:48] basis of photons that come in through
[1:23:49] your eyes, sound waves that hit your
[1:23:51] ears, mechanical forces that hit your
[1:23:53] skin, and chemicals that go in your
[1:23:55] nostrils and in your mouth. And then you
[1:23:57] create you abstract reality in here.
[1:24:01] Now, the laws of physics dictate how
[1:24:04] those things like photons have
[1:24:06] properties, sound waves have properties,
[1:24:08] and those are converted. they're
[1:24:10] transformed into signals. But then you
[1:24:12] abstract the world with enough
[1:24:14] accuracies that I can pick up this pen,
[1:24:16] >> okay, and not miss it, at least for now.
[1:24:20] So
[1:24:22] if you understand neuroscience that way,
[1:24:24] and then you go, we don't see infrared
[1:24:26] in this room because we don't have the
[1:24:28] sensors,
[1:24:29] >> but a pit viper does, does that mean
[1:24:31] that there's a god? No, not necessarily.
[1:24:35] That alone doesn't prove that. But what
[1:24:37] it does prove is that we only have
[1:24:39] access to the physical events in the
[1:24:42] world that we have the filters within us
[1:24:45] to extract which is a kind of
[1:24:47] mealymouthed way of saying you can't see
[1:24:51] it cuz you can't see it.
[1:24:53] >> You don't have the sensors. You can
[1:24:55] throw on infrared goggles and then you
[1:24:56] can see it. But that's a technology
[1:24:58] there. I don't think there will ever be
[1:25:00] the god goggles. The emotional goggles
[1:25:02] so to speak come from this thing that we
[1:25:04] call faith. Faith is the infrared
[1:25:07] goggles of of human understanding about
[1:25:10] why we're here. And the the challenge
[1:25:12] for people is I feel like people come in
[1:25:14] three categories. They they either at
[1:25:16] least three. They either would force
[1:25:18] religion in a bad way so they hate it.
[1:25:22] They never had access to it in a way
[1:25:24] that made them gently pulled toward it
[1:25:27] or you know they were like it was like
[1:25:29] people knocking on their door. It felt
[1:25:30] like a disturbance. And I, you know, I'm
[1:25:32] not against proilitizing if it's done
[1:25:33] kindly and with, you know, delicately.
[1:25:36] Or they are absolutely convinced that it
[1:25:39] can't be, which I look at as sort of a
[1:25:41] spiritual anorexia. You know, there are
[1:25:43] regions of the brain that when
[1:25:44] stimulated, people get a godlike exper
[1:25:47] the experience of God, not as
[1:25:48] themselves, but they feel it. You had
[1:25:50] this idea. And so people have said, "Oh,
[1:25:52] well then there's a God region of the
[1:25:54] brain, and it's just a brain region.
[1:25:55] It's just a brain region. That can't
[1:25:57] be." But we have brain regions. Arthur
[1:26:00] says this much more eloquently than I
[1:26:02] could. There are brain regions for
[1:26:03] thirst which in the philosophical
[1:26:07] way again this is coming from him not me
[1:26:10] would say well that proves the existence
[1:26:12] of water. The thirst proves the
[1:26:15] existence of water right. So I have a
[1:26:18] thirst circuit for gaining understanding
[1:26:22] of this thing that we call life and
[1:26:24] whatever comes after it. And in that
[1:26:27] thirst, I decided to open the aperture
[1:26:31] to the idea that it's that the thing,
[1:26:33] the stimulus, the water, the photons,
[1:26:36] I'm not able to extract that through
[1:26:39] thought, through my eyes, through my
[1:26:42] ears.
[1:26:43] Just like my dad couldn't come to
[1:26:45] understand quantum mechanics by thinking
[1:26:47] really hard about it, you have to do the
[1:26:49] math. And there are gaps in the in my
[1:26:51] reasoning here. Like it's not a perfect
[1:26:52] one to one, but also life's just so much
[1:26:55] better, man. I don't think anxiety
[1:26:57] sticks in us very long. If we we're
[1:26:59] feeling anxious, he pray God please like
[1:27:02] help me remove help me remove this. It's
[1:27:03] not do this for me. It's help me
[1:27:07] put energy in me to do the right things
[1:27:09] today. Put energy in me to serve people.
[1:27:11] I prayed before I came in here
[1:27:13] >> on get on my knees before every podcast
[1:27:17] guest or host and I prayed. I prayed for
[1:27:19] I just said please help me move my ego
[1:27:21] out of the room. We all have an ego.
[1:27:24] help me move my ego out of the room. I I
[1:27:26] would hope that people could learn
[1:27:27] useful information that might help them
[1:27:29] and that they would propagate that
[1:27:30] information. Please make sure that I
[1:27:33] maintain humility, maintain like help me
[1:27:36] help me strive for clarity and I also
[1:27:40] said and help Stephen and I do something
[1:27:43] that we're not predicting that would
[1:27:45] happen but you want us to happen that we
[1:27:46] don't understand. And maybe that's this
[1:27:48] part of the conversation, [laughter]
[1:27:50] right? Like you know, I don't know. And
[1:27:52] the point is not to know. It's also fun
[1:27:54] as a scientist who loves mechanisms and
[1:27:56] cells and circuits and neurom modulators
[1:27:57] and it's enriching to have a part of
[1:27:59] life that like I can just
[1:28:03] explore in like it's I like mysteries
[1:28:06] like science is about mysteries and it's
[1:28:08] about solving mysteries but it's also
[1:28:10] about being in awe of the the mystery
[1:28:12] and um I'm all in man. I mean I'm
[1:28:16] different allin than
[1:28:18] other people talk about being allin and
[1:28:21] I don't tell people what to do morally.
[1:28:23] I'm I'm really just trying to navigate
[1:28:24] my own my own path. But it is uh it's
[1:28:28] like one of the best things that ever
[1:28:30] happened to me. It's so liberating and
[1:28:32] life is still plenty hard. But I love
[1:28:35] it.
[1:28:35] >> It seems to be an antidote that a lot of
[1:28:37] people are reaching for now based on the
[1:28:39] way that we've kind of designed our
[1:28:40] lives over the last couple of decades.
[1:28:42] the sort of individualism, the
[1:28:43] loneliness, the I don't know nihilism,
[1:28:46] the me me, the material success, the you
[1:28:50] could say like low-level narcissism of
[1:28:52] being on social media and trying to get
[1:28:55] as many followers as you can. And we've
[1:28:57] become islands. And I I've been thinking
[1:29:00] a lot about this idea of like God and
[1:29:02] meaning because it does appear to me
[1:29:04] that we are meant to be like anchored
[1:29:07] to, you know, ourselves and our family
[1:29:10] and then like, I don't know, our
[1:29:11] community and then maybe our city and
[1:29:13] then maybe our country and then maybe
[1:29:15] the planet and then something above.
[1:29:16] >> I mean, you're an ambitious guy. Go
[1:29:18] bigger, man. I'm not trying to push you
[1:29:20] like No, no, please.
[1:29:21] >> Bigger. The biggest thing is that the
[1:29:23] that is a nonhuman force in the universe
[1:29:27] that wants goodness
[1:29:30] and can exemplify perfection
[1:29:33] and you and I if I may by virtue of
[1:29:36] being human by virtue of having circuits
[1:29:38] that I mean the famous studies like
[1:29:40] people get to stimulate different areas
[1:29:42] of their brain you know the area that
[1:29:43] people like to stimulate a lot the area
[1:29:44] that generates frustration and anger
[1:29:46] that arousal I saw that result and I was
[1:29:49] like oh man that's disappointing why not
[1:29:51] beauty, giddiness or even feelings of
[1:29:53] being drunk. Though they found that too,
[1:29:55] but they were not as interested in that.
[1:29:57] You know, are we bad? No, we're not bad.
[1:29:59] We we are wired with an animal part of
[1:30:01] our brain and we are wired with a
[1:30:03] conscious thoughtful part of our brain.
[1:30:05] And it's a lot of work to ascend. I know
[1:30:10] that word is like it in the looks maxing
[1:30:12] thing now but like it's a to ascend as a
[1:30:16] human to a place where you're living in
[1:30:19] a controlled and thoughtful and peaceful
[1:30:22] way with yourself and with your pursuits
[1:30:24] and you're putting trying striving to
[1:30:26] put goodness in the world and take care
[1:30:28] of people and and to do that uh with a
[1:30:33] little less friction. I know from
[1:30:35] experience that comes from trying not to
[1:30:37] control every aspect of every process
[1:30:40] and somehow everything just goes much
[1:30:42] better. So, you know, people will be
[1:30:45] like, "Oh, he really drank the
[1:30:46] Kool-Aid." Like, I don't know. I I
[1:30:48] actually think that this was pumping in
[1:30:50] my veins from go. Yes, I worked on a lot
[1:30:53] of topics um stress, vision, etc. But I
[1:30:56] studied neural development for a long
[1:30:57] time and you know sperm meets egg and
[1:31:02] cells start dividing and you get a human
[1:31:05] and um yes we understand induction
[1:31:08] factors. I teach developmental robotics
[1:31:10] cell migration axon guidance you know
[1:31:12] misoderm ectoerm etc.
[1:31:15] Great. Like compartmentalized chemistry
[1:31:19] can give you a human, but there are gaps
[1:31:23] in our understanding and there's magic
[1:31:25] in that orchestration that goes beyond
[1:31:29] what the science can even begin to
[1:31:31] understand. And it's nothing short of
[1:31:34] spectacular. You just like also who
[1:31:37] doesn't want more awe in their life?
[1:31:39] It's like Dr. Kelner is like the the awe
[1:31:42] guy at Berkeley like he said. Yeah. Awe
[1:31:44] is when you go from small aperture to
[1:31:46] big aperture and from big aperture to
[1:31:48] small aperture. That transition induces
[1:31:50] awe and you can hear it in sound too.
[1:31:52] Like when you walk in off the street and
[1:31:54] you go into like Stanford has this
[1:31:56] incredible church. Memorial church is
[1:31:59] unbelievably beautiful with this giant
[1:32:01] organ and you walk in there and people
[1:32:03] change. Not just because it's a you like
[1:32:05] there's this high ceiling and you're
[1:32:07] like wow like this is incredible. Of
[1:32:09] course, I know humans made it. Like I'm
[1:32:11] not an idiot, but
[1:32:14] day aperture to
[1:32:16] holy aperture. The like these and you
[1:32:19] can get this other ways, right? I'm not
[1:32:21] saying you can't get this other ways,
[1:32:22] but I like the idea that if we dial out
[1:32:25] really far
[1:32:27] >> that there's something much greater than
[1:32:29] us. And and I don't know what it exactly
[1:32:31] what form it takes or exactly what shape
[1:32:33] it takes or exactly what ways that it um
[1:32:37] God would exert
[1:32:39] uh influence over our minds. But
[1:32:42] >> you don't need to
[1:32:43] >> you don't need to.
[1:32:44] >> This is the thing that I have to I think
[1:32:45] I have to come to terms with is I I go,
[1:32:48] okay, this is really interesting.
[1:32:49] There's lots of meaning and benefits to
[1:32:50] my life. You know, if we're just
[1:32:52] thinking about benefits, right? And then
[1:32:54] I go, okay, so which which Bible have I
[1:32:55] got to believe? And then I start looking
[1:32:57] at the Bibles and I'm like, "Okay,
[1:32:58] Noah's arc."
[1:32:59] >> Look at a bunch of them. I think one
[1:33:01] will call to you more than the others.
[1:33:02] Listen, it may end up being atheism for
[1:33:04] some people. But when I said um when I
[1:33:07] said spiritual anorexia earlier,
[1:33:09] anorexia is the most deadly of the
[1:33:11] psychiatric illnesses.
[1:33:13] It's like it's incredibly deadly. And
[1:33:16] it's a something happens to the neural
[1:33:18] circuits where people with true anorexia
[1:33:21] feel reward some sort of sense of quote
[1:33:24] unquote reinforcement is better than
[1:33:26] reward. Reinforcement from avoiding food
[1:33:28] as opposed to eating it. So that's very
[1:33:29] like runs against our evolution as a
[1:33:33] species, right? And our health. But the
[1:33:36] desire for food, as Arthur would say,
[1:33:39] proves the existence of food, right? The
[1:33:41] desire of thirst proves the existence of
[1:33:43] water. And there are atheists who are
[1:33:46] like, "Yeah, I don't need it. Not for
[1:33:47] me." And then there are atheists who are
[1:33:49] who have a kind of spiritual anorexia.
[1:33:51] It's almost like they get their
[1:33:53] spirituality is not believing in a god.
[1:33:55] And I look at them and I go, "Well,
[1:33:57] you're kind of on the like the same like
[1:33:59] extreme. It's almost like it wraps
[1:34:00] around so far that you you the the truly
[1:34:02] religious people and the atheists kind
[1:34:04] of meet right here. They both have the
[1:34:05] same sort of thing, but there's kind of
[1:34:06] an inversion of the circuit right there.
[1:34:09] And so I don't know someone will work
[1:34:11] out the neuroscience or not. I'm going
[1:34:13] to keep praying because my life is that
[1:34:14] much better.
[1:34:15] >> When you when I heard you talk about it,
[1:34:17] I started praying a little bit.
[1:34:18] >> Oh, right on.
[1:34:19] >> Not all the time, but there there's
[1:34:21] several moments where I thought, do you
[1:34:22] know what? Now would be a good time to
[1:34:23] just pray. And someone like you saying
[1:34:26] that you do it gives a lot of other
[1:34:28] people permission to try and to
[1:34:31] investigate for themselves because you
[1:34:33] know you like if I'm in the human camp
[1:34:35] maybe I'm someone that really cares
[1:34:36] about scientific rigor and precision and
[1:34:38] and then if you if that if you change
[1:34:40] that camp to also be open-minded to
[1:34:43] spirituality and religion and these sort
[1:34:44] of other pursuits I can still [laughter]
[1:34:48] be sort of ideologically who I believe I
[1:34:49] am while also investigating these other
[1:34:51] things. So when I it was really
[1:34:53] impactful for me to hear you talk about
[1:34:55] prayer because it impacted my
[1:34:57] >> it gave me permission I should say at
[1:34:59] some weird level to also investigate and
[1:35:01] yeah like I report the same findings as
[1:35:03] you that
[1:35:05] >> it helps. [laughter]
[1:35:06] >> Yeah it helps. My former chair and
[1:35:08] director of neurosciences at Stanford
[1:35:10] who encouraged me to do that talk at
[1:35:11] Veraritoss where I mostly talked about
[1:35:13] how ignorant and naive I am on these
[1:35:16] topics. He's a brilliant neuroscientist.
[1:35:19] He has faith
[1:35:20] >> and I respect him and I respect his
[1:35:22] mind. I also think there's maybe a kind
[1:35:24] of fun analogy here that just came to
[1:35:26] mind. You know, it happens in every
[1:35:28] dimension like audience and podcasters
[1:35:30] or but this happened during the pandemic
[1:35:32] with the with the health community and
[1:35:34] we're seeing the the long tale of that
[1:35:35] now. But you know, when you're a kid,
[1:35:37] you think your parents are everything.
[1:35:39] you think they can do no wrong and then
[1:35:42] there's this thing called being an
[1:35:43] adolescent teenager and you catch them
[1:35:45] doing like lying or saying things
[1:35:48] occasionally or doing things you go wait
[1:35:49] you said that and and it's like this and
[1:35:51] all of a sudden you're like you don't
[1:35:54] know anything
[1:35:56] >> then you gain some hopefully some agency
[1:35:58] and some philosophy in life and you get
[1:36:00] to this point where you think you know
[1:36:02] everything and you accept that they
[1:36:04] don't but you're really the one that
[1:36:05] understands
[1:36:09] I think that as adults, we eventually
[1:36:12] get to the place after that where we go,
[1:36:14] "Oh, wait. It's outside of me. I'm got
[1:36:16] to look outside of me." And then you go,
[1:36:17] "No, every like all these adults, we
[1:36:19] were all they went through it and we
[1:36:20] went through it." And the real like it's
[1:36:23] going, "Oh, wait. No, no. I'm looking at
[1:36:24] humans for something that doesn't isn't
[1:36:26] going to come from human beings. We're
[1:36:28] all flawed. We're all we're all
[1:36:30] imperfect." And so the the notion the
[1:36:33] belief that there's the perfection
[1:36:36] exists outside us and that we can strive
[1:36:38] for certain things through works through
[1:36:40] practices
[1:36:43] that's not just compelling that's just
[1:36:44] like downright fantastic to me because
[1:36:47] it you fully embrace the the woes and
[1:36:52] the the beauty of being human in
[1:36:55] embracing God. It's kind of a weird
[1:36:56] thing. So listen, more power to the
[1:36:58] atheists if they if they can pull it off
[1:36:59] without all that. Great. But you know,
[1:37:01] meanwhile, I'm going to keep at it.
[1:37:03] >> Amen.
[1:37:05] >> This is something that I've made for
[1:37:07] you. I realize that the DEO audience are
[1:37:09] striv
[1:37:12] goals that we want to accomplish. And
[1:37:14] one of the things I've learned is that
[1:37:16] when you aim at the big big goal, it can
[1:37:19] feel incredibly psychologically
[1:37:21] uncomfortable because it's kind of like
[1:37:23] being stood at the foot of Mount Everest
[1:37:24] and looking upwards. The way to
[1:37:26] accomplish your goals is by breaking
[1:37:28] them down into tiny small steps. And we
[1:37:31] call this in our team the 1%. And
[1:37:33] actually this philosophy is highly
[1:37:35] responsible for much of our success
[1:37:36] here. So what we've done so that you at
[1:37:39] home can accomplish any big goal that
[1:37:41] you have is we've made these 1% diaries
[1:37:44] and we released these last year and they
[1:37:46] all sold out. So I asked my team over
[1:37:48] and over again to bring the diaries back
[1:37:50] but also to introduce some new colors
[1:37:51] and to make some minor tweaks to the
[1:37:53] diary. Now, we have a better range for
[1:37:57] you. So, if you have a big goal in mind
[1:37:59] and you need a framework and a process
[1:38:01] and some motivation, then I highly
[1:38:04] recommend you get one of these diaries
[1:38:05] before they all sell out once again. And
[1:38:07] you can get yours at the diary.com.
[1:38:10] And if you want the link, the link is in
[1:38:12] the description below. There should be a
[1:38:14] button just down below here. And if it
[1:38:16] says subscribed, you're already
[1:38:17] subscribed. If it says subscriber, that
[1:38:20] means you're not yet. And if you're not
[1:38:21] subscribed, please could you do us a
[1:38:22] favor and hit that button? It helps the
[1:38:24] show more than you know. And according
[1:38:25] to the algorithm, you're someone that
[1:38:27] watches our show, but you haven't yet
[1:38:28] hit that button. Thank you so much.
[1:38:31] >> Okay, so we haven't done number seven
[1:38:33] and we And what's number eight then? We
[1:38:34] haven't done number eight.
[1:38:35] >> Yeah.
[1:38:35] >> And we haven't done
[1:38:37] >> Well, we sort of did this. So, at night
[1:38:38] once you're asleep, try and keep your
[1:38:40] sleeping environment as dark as
[1:38:41] possible. A good eye mask is useful.
[1:38:43] Some people like earplugs, too. If you
[1:38:45] wake up in the middle of the night, do
[1:38:46] some long exhale breathing or do the,
[1:38:48] you know, the this wacky eyes to the
[1:38:50] side, eyes up and then, you know,
[1:38:52] counterclockwise and clockwise. So, at
[1:38:55] night, dim the lights. Why? Bright
[1:38:56] lights stimulate cortisol release. You
[1:38:58] want your cortisol low at night.
[1:39:00] Everyone says, "Yeah, dim the lights to
[1:39:02] because it suppresses melatonin." That's
[1:39:04] true,
[1:39:04] >> but that's just half of the story. The
[1:39:06] other reason is it increases cortisol
[1:39:08] and you want your cortisol low at night.
[1:39:09] >> What about this whole conversation
[1:39:10] around phones at night?
[1:39:12] >> Yeah. And blue light. Okay.
[1:39:13] >> Dim dim your phone or or triple click
[1:39:16] program it to the go to the red screen.
[1:39:18] Oh yeah.
[1:39:18] >> Yeah. Just do that.
[1:39:20] >> I I think in the last let's be
[1:39:22] reasonable. The last 30 minutes before
[1:39:24] sleep. No screens. First 30 minutes
[1:39:27] after waking you should be looking at
[1:39:28] the sun and exercising, hydrating, and
[1:39:31] doing that kind of thing.
[1:39:31] >> And chuck the partner out of the bed.
[1:39:33] I've had I've had some
[1:39:34] >> really sleeping. They've been joking.
[1:39:36] >> I'm the opposite. I'm I'm a spooner.
[1:39:39] >> So am I. I read some studies.
[1:39:40] >> I sleep best as big spoon. Yeah, I have
[1:39:43] no choice. I don't get Yeah.
[1:39:44] >> Yeah. [laughter]
[1:39:47] No, but I I did hear a study that, you
[1:39:49] know, it does impact sleep, but who
[1:39:50] cares?
[1:39:51] >> I don't know. I mean, uh the the bed
[1:39:53] cooling thing is very helpful because I
[1:39:54] tend to run warm. So, having another
[1:39:56] person in there is like really warm.
[1:39:58] Like it it's like sleeping with a
[1:39:59] >> That's so funny.
[1:40:00] >> I don't want to diminish into a giant
[1:40:02] hot water bottle, but she runs really
[1:40:04] warm. So, having the cooling mattress
[1:40:06] helps. But, okay. You really want to do
[1:40:08] these two things. These actually go very
[1:40:10] well together.
[1:40:12] You need to do a bout of work of 90
[1:40:13] minutes to two hours. You like you got
[1:40:15] to strive and try and learn something.
[1:40:16] Do something hard every day mentally.
[1:40:19] This is critical for your ability to
[1:40:20] focus. And by the way, you you asked
[1:40:23] about phones. Awesome study came out.
[1:40:25] They had people with their phone off
[1:40:27] upside down on the table or in their bag
[1:40:29] underneath their chair or in the
[1:40:31] opposite room, a separate room. And what
[1:40:33] they found is people can focus just fine
[1:40:35] in all three conditions. But if the
[1:40:38] phone is anywhere in the room, the
[1:40:40] amount of cognitive flexibility they
[1:40:42] have with the material they're focusing
[1:40:44] on is diminished. In other words,
[1:40:45] requires more energy to focus. Even if
[1:40:48] they're not getting calls and
[1:40:49] notifications, there's a subscript
[1:40:51] running in the brain apparently that's
[1:40:53] anticipating that this thing is going to
[1:40:56] reach for me. It's going to call me. So,
[1:40:57] it's calling you even if it's not
[1:40:59] calling you, which is pretty cool. And
[1:41:02] so the way to increase focus and
[1:41:04] cognitive capacity is actually to just
[1:41:06] get the phone out of the room. That's a
[1:41:07] big part of it. And actually visual
[1:41:09] field matter matters a lot too. You know
[1:41:11] like the the kid in school with the
[1:41:12] hoodie who's not asleep like that
[1:41:14] actually is helpful. I talk about some
[1:41:15] of the the history of tools for focus
[1:41:17] pharmarmacology but also physical
[1:41:19] devices. You know they used to design
[1:41:20] helmets for kids to like try and focus
[1:41:23] the kids that had troubles f problem is
[1:41:26] now with the with the phone you've moved
[1:41:27] the whole world right in front of you.
[1:41:29] So focusing just here doesn't work but
[1:41:33] get the phone out of the room and do
[1:41:34] some effortful learning bout and it
[1:41:36] should feel like a fight. Keep in mind
[1:41:38] the friction you feel trying to learn
[1:41:40] something that's adrenaline. The
[1:41:43] remember how do we block learning? We
[1:41:45] block adrenaline and its downstream
[1:41:47] effects with propranolol.
[1:41:50] being alert but calm or a little
[1:41:52] stressed and making errors through
[1:41:55] deliberate attempts to do something, not
[1:41:56] just throwaway errors.
[1:41:59] That's how you learn. Why? If I can
[1:42:01] reach out and grab this pen, my brain
[1:42:03] doesn't change. One of the biggest lies
[1:42:05] in public education about neuroscience
[1:42:07] is that every experience changes your
[1:42:09] brain. By the time I'm done saying this,
[1:42:10] your brain will be different. No, that's
[1:42:12] absolutely not true. That's a bunch of
[1:42:13] hoie. I studied neuroplasticity. I teach
[1:42:16] neuroplasticity. I'll tell you, you know
[1:42:17] what induces neuroplasticity? being a
[1:42:19] baby who's trying to learn or being an
[1:42:20] adult who's forcing yourself to try and
[1:42:23] learn and you can't do the thing the
[1:42:25] error is what stimulates the plasticity.
[1:42:29] So if you and the the appropriate level
[1:42:31] of difficulty say the computational
[1:42:33] modeling is somewhere around 15% on
[1:42:35] average. Now what does that mean?
[1:42:37] There's two kinds of practice. One is
[1:42:39] practicing doing things I already know
[1:42:41] how to do. There you're aiming for 100%
[1:42:43] performance, right? You're reinforcing
[1:42:45] what you already know how to do. talk to
[1:42:46] a great dancer and they'll tell you they
[1:42:48] drill drill drill drill the things they
[1:42:50] already know how to do. But when you're
[1:42:51] trying to learn the new language, the
[1:42:54] new emotional skill, the new physical
[1:42:55] skill, the new cognitive emotional
[1:42:57] skill, you need to make genuine attempts
[1:43:01] and you need to fail some of the time.
[1:43:02] And those failure signals are relayed to
[1:43:04] your cerebellum and your cerebellum
[1:43:07] propagates through networks that say
[1:43:10] change.
[1:43:11] >> So there's a set of conditions in the
[1:43:13] chapter on plasticity that say you need
[1:43:14] to be alert. So I talk about all the
[1:43:17] ways you can get alert including
[1:43:19] pharmarmacology supplements and
[1:43:20] behavioral tools. Then you need to be
[1:43:22] focused. I talk about all the tools for
[1:43:24] focus which you can devote to anything
[1:43:26] not just learning. And then I talk about
[1:43:28] the conditions for plasticity and you
[1:43:31] need to get this friction and these
[1:43:34] errors and then you need to stop. You
[1:43:36] need to come back a day or two later do
[1:43:38] it again and then you need to make sure
[1:43:40] that you reinforce what you learned. The
[1:43:42] beet here's where AI is going to be a
[1:43:44] wonderful tool already is a wonderful
[1:43:45] tool. The best way to learn is to not
[1:43:48] forget meaning
[1:43:51] if you test yourself mentally or you
[1:43:54] could use any one of the LLMs but I'll
[1:43:56] go into chat GBT and I'll just say um
[1:43:58] generate a short test of a graduate
[1:44:00] student at Stanford level questions
[1:44:02] about neuroplasticity and I and I and I
[1:44:05] go and I remember this this is there's
[1:44:07] this one thing I don't remember. That's
[1:44:08] how you maintain and build knowledge
[1:44:11] over time. Self- testing. Self- testing.
[1:44:14] People hear the word test, they think of
[1:44:15] external tester. You're the test taker.
[1:44:17] Self- testing.
[1:44:18] >> That's a really interesting idea for
[1:44:20] this podcast episode, which we should
[1:44:22] definitely run. Team,
[1:44:23] >> should we generate a quiz?
[1:44:24] >> Yeah. So, we can take the transcript and
[1:44:26] we can turn it into a a test.
[1:44:28] >> Cool.
[1:44:29] >> Of the 10 protocols that you've talked
[1:44:30] through and we'll link it below if you
[1:44:33] want to take the test.
[1:44:35] >> Awesome.
[1:44:36] >> JBT is great at doing this. you can
[1:44:38] change the difficulty and you can
[1:44:39] actually say I'm a professor of
[1:44:42] neuroscience and I want a 15% error rate
[1:44:45] on average [laughter]
[1:44:47] and it so it's pretty cool you know the
[1:44:50] the study I love that really backs this
[1:44:52] up is that there have been a lot of
[1:44:53] studies of learning where they have
[1:44:55] students read the same passage one two
[1:44:57] three or four times and then they also
[1:44:59] have them highlight or take notes or
[1:45:01] they just have them read it once and
[1:45:02] self test and they look 6 months and two
[1:45:04] years later reading it once no notes
[1:45:07] notes, no highlighting and self-
[1:45:09] testing, you know, about a week later
[1:45:12] and looking up what you got couldn't
[1:45:14] remember or got wrong led to much more
[1:45:16] stable learning over time. Awesome. Now,
[1:45:19] this doesn't work so well for physical
[1:45:21] endeavors cuz there you have to like
[1:45:22] actually do the physical thing. You have
[1:45:24] to test yourself physically. But I love
[1:45:27] that set of experiments um because tells
[1:45:30] us everything we should be doing. So, I
[1:45:32] think in doing this for me, it could be
[1:45:33] a book. It could be. Lately, I've been
[1:45:36] podcasting and recording my audio book.
[1:45:38] Have you done a a book?
[1:45:40] >> Yes. And I did the audio book, which was
[1:45:41] horrific.
[1:45:42] >> Are you due for another one?
[1:45:43] >> I am. I've I've actually written it
[1:45:44] already. I wrote it. I finished writing
[1:45:45] it last year, but I
[1:45:47] >> Oh, man. What's it about?
[1:45:48] >> It's called Just Do It. I asked
[1:45:50] the audience multiple times what I
[1:45:52] showed them multiple covers of books,
[1:45:53] hundreds of them, and asked them what
[1:45:54] they wanted,
[1:45:55] >> and that was the one that most of them
[1:45:56] tried to buy. And so, it's really just a
[1:45:58] it's really a breakdown of how to do the
[1:46:00] thing. And actually I referenced you in
[1:46:01] that in the chapter about the anterior
[1:46:03] mids singular cortex and what you said
[1:46:05] about it. And
[1:46:06] >> so
[1:46:07] >> well to be clear I didn't discover that
[1:46:08] structure but I'm happy to u to expound
[1:46:11] on all its incredible abilities.
[1:46:13] >> I just quote what I heard you say about
[1:46:15] it in your podcast but I'll show you
[1:46:17] what I what I wrote. Um
[1:46:18] >> cool. I'll get a copy. I'm late to the
[1:46:19] train obviously. [laughter]
[1:46:21] >> So I think it's it's it's enriching as a
[1:46:23] person. It's not about optimization
[1:46:26] per se. A it's it's about being a human
[1:46:27] being and learning and effort that's
[1:46:29] followed by learning and reward
[1:46:31] especially for things that you might
[1:46:33] well including things that may not
[1:46:35] immediately benefit you but just to
[1:46:37] enrich your mind is is cool like if
[1:46:39] you're interested in the history of
[1:46:40] medicine read a hard book the prince of
[1:46:42] medicine about Galen. If you're
[1:46:43] interested in light, there are a bunch
[1:46:45] of cool books about sunlight coming out
[1:46:47] now from people other than me about how
[1:46:50] cool sunlight is. And there's just like
[1:46:51] cool books out there.
[1:46:52] >> But this is this is linked to brain
[1:46:54] health and dementia, these kind of
[1:46:56] things. No,
[1:46:57] >> to some extent. Yeah. I mean, the data
[1:46:58] on dementia say that people who stay
[1:47:00] mentally and physically active and are
[1:47:02] socially enriched um do very do much
[1:47:06] better. In fact, Massud Hussein uh who
[1:47:08] is this brilliant neurologist from
[1:47:10] Oxford um has been talking about
[1:47:12] patients who it turns out live a very
[1:47:15] long time, have lots of plaques and
[1:47:17] tangles, the signature anatomical
[1:47:18] features of Alzheimer's dementia, but no
[1:47:21] dementia.
[1:47:22] >> Oh yeah.
[1:47:22] >> And these people are exercisers and they
[1:47:25] are people who stay very avidly engaged
[1:47:27] in learning. So there are a lot more
[1:47:29] people with quote unquote al with
[1:47:31] Alzheimer's walking around. they have
[1:47:32] all the diagnostic features of
[1:47:34] Alzheimer's except the memory loss and
[1:47:35] dementia. So this says that to some
[1:47:37] extent the physical
[1:47:40] ramifications of Alzheimer's and the
[1:47:43] consequence of those changes in neurons
[1:47:45] are somewhat somewhat separable. We want
[1:47:48] to be fair. I mean he also told me that
[1:47:50] there are patients who have Parkinson's
[1:47:51] who can't generate smooth movement but
[1:47:54] if they have to escape a burning
[1:47:55] building they can which is
[1:47:58] interesting a little frustrating as a
[1:48:00] message because it sort of sends could
[1:48:02] potentially send the wrong message like
[1:48:04] they're just not motivated enough but it
[1:48:05] points to the fact that if motivational
[1:48:07] systems are high enough that there may
[1:48:10] be alternate motivational systems in the
[1:48:13] same way that kids with very severe ADHD
[1:48:15] if you give them a video game they love
[1:48:17] they are locked and loaded.
[1:48:19] They're in they're in a focus tunnel
[1:48:21] like this for two hours which tells you
[1:48:22] they can focus but not on things they
[1:48:24] they're not really interested in. And a
[1:48:26] lot of life is about forcing yourself to
[1:48:28] be interested in things you don't really
[1:48:30] want to do.
[1:48:30] >> So that's number four. We got one left.
[1:48:32] Number 10 is it?
[1:48:33] >> Yeah. You said they were linked.
[1:48:35] >> Number 10 to frame this a little bit.
[1:48:37] The last chapter of my book is on
[1:48:39] personal development. I thought a lot
[1:48:40] like am I going to write a book the last
[1:48:42] chapter on like relationships? That
[1:48:45] seemed like a no. Not because I haven't
[1:48:46] had them or not because I haven't had
[1:48:48] some great ones. Um but because I think
[1:48:50] people who like work on that as their
[1:48:54] academics, you know, fundamentally
[1:48:55] should do that. Then again, I had a
[1:48:56] chapter on nutrition and exercise. But
[1:48:58] um in any event, I decided to write
[1:49:00] about relationship to self.
[1:49:03] And then I thought, no, personal
[1:49:05] development is something we're all
[1:49:06] trying to do. And here's the key
[1:49:08] question set up at the beginning. I talk
[1:49:10] about grief and what the science of
[1:49:11] grief is and and how to navigate grief.
[1:49:13] But early on in that the chapter on
[1:49:15] personal development, I sort of set it
[1:49:16] up the following way. I look out on the
[1:49:19] landscape of all the personal,
[1:49:20] psychological, and relationship
[1:49:22] development stuff out there online, in
[1:49:24] books, in papers, etc. And it looks like
[1:49:27] there's sort of a two bins. One is how
[1:49:32] to
[1:49:34] find what's important to you, do what's
[1:49:36] best for you, and be the person you're
[1:49:39] supposed to be for the world and maybe
[1:49:42] for you also. And then there's this
[1:49:44] other bin which is that we need to be
[1:49:46] very careful about pursuing things and
[1:49:48] fulfilling roles because we can get very
[1:49:50] far off track from our core like what
[1:49:52] Martha Beck would call our essential
[1:49:54] self. and I'm a huge fan of her work if
[1:49:57] in no small part because she talked
[1:49:59] about that in her books which were very
[1:50:01] very impactful for me. But she also has
[1:50:03] three degrees from Harvard. So this
[1:50:05] isn't somebody who like can't get stuff
[1:50:06] done and she's a mom and she's navigated
[1:50:09] complicated life landscapes.
[1:50:11] So I was like, "Okay, this is this kind
[1:50:13] of it." And then I I hosted um James
[1:50:16] Hollis, this 84 year old Yungian analyst
[1:50:18] on my podcast. And um he just wowed the
[1:50:23] heck out of all of us. And he basically
[1:50:25] said this, here's a really good life.
[1:50:27] Mind you, this guy's written books like
[1:50:28] the Eden Project on on relationships.
[1:50:30] He's written books like Under Saturn
[1:50:32] Shadow on the healing and trauma of men.
[1:50:34] He's a he's a brilliant thinker. And he
[1:50:37] said, "Look, there's three things you
[1:50:39] got to do every day." And he encourages
[1:50:42] his patients to write this on their
[1:50:44] refrigerator or carry it around with
[1:50:45] them. He says, "First, shut up." I'm
[1:50:48] like, "What? I thought it was gonna be
[1:50:49] like this like nice young analyst."
[1:50:51] Like, he goes, "Shut up." There's always
[1:50:53] somebody suffering more than you. You
[1:50:55] have to have gratitude. You have to have
[1:50:57] a gratitude practice. So, I spent some
[1:50:59] time talking about what that really
[1:51:01] looks like because there's a science of
[1:51:03] gratitude and then there's the common
[1:51:04] understanding about what that is. It's
[1:51:05] really about
[1:51:07] receiving gratitude or yes having a
[1:51:11] gratitude practice of all the things
[1:51:12] that are good in your life, but really
[1:51:14] it's about giving gratitude and
[1:51:15] receiving gratitude. And that's a I talk
[1:51:18] about that and how to accomplish that.
[1:51:19] The second thing he he said, so I go,
[1:51:21] okay, now he'll kind of soften up and he
[1:51:23] goes, he says, um, suit up. You're not
[1:51:26] going to be able to do well in anything
[1:51:27] in life unless you prepare. Get up in
[1:51:29] the morning, take care of your health,
[1:51:31] do what you need to to shower, brush
[1:51:33] your teeth, get organized. This sounds a
[1:51:34] little bit like Jordan Peterson's Clean
[1:51:36] Your Room, but it was even like edgier
[1:51:38] than that. It was like, how in the world
[1:51:40] could you perform well on an exam or in
[1:51:42] a relationship or in a sport or at work
[1:51:45] if you don't actually do your homework?
[1:51:47] I was like, oh man, this guy's like some
[1:51:49] like boomer knowledge right here. And
[1:51:51] then he says, "And show up." He said,
[1:51:53] "Happy people fulfill outward roles
[1:51:58] for the world. They fulfill roles.
[1:52:00] Father, mother, sister, brother. They
[1:52:02] look at themselves and this is not the
[1:52:04] totality of it but they look at
[1:52:05] themselves as somebody who needs to
[1:52:07] fulfill roles. Teacher,
[1:52:10] mechanic, whatever, engineer, podcaster,
[1:52:14] but you have to shut up, suit up and
[1:52:16] show up. You need to fulfill roles.
[1:52:17] There is no human being that doesn't get
[1:52:21] doesn't have to do stuff for the world.
[1:52:23] You can't freload. But then he said
[1:52:26] there's this other bin which is if you
[1:52:28] carry on like that for 10 20 30 years
[1:52:31] you can end up [clears throat] quite
[1:52:32] happy but most of the time if people
[1:52:34] just do those things they end up pretty
[1:52:36] miserable.
[1:52:37] >> And I was like oh man like and he said
[1:52:40] the other piece is once a day you need
[1:52:43] to get out of role fulfillment. You need
[1:52:45] to get out of preparation suit up and
[1:52:48] you need to get out of trying to be more
[1:52:50] grateful.
[1:52:51] You still need to do that, but you need
[1:52:52] to get out of that and you need to go
[1:52:54] into what he called exiting the stimulus
[1:52:56] response mode of being, which could be
[1:53:00] sitting quietly in meditation. It could
[1:53:02] be drawing, listening to music. You're
[1:53:04] not trying to accomplish anything. And
[1:53:06] you're just letting your unconscious
[1:53:08] mind feed you information about what he
[1:53:10] called your deepest heart's desires.
[1:53:14] And I was like, "Yes,
[1:53:17] this is why we go camping." He said,
[1:53:18] "Yes, you can take longer extended
[1:53:20] breaks. You can go backpacking. You can
[1:53:22] run. You can do that. You can allow this
[1:53:23] to happen in any number of ways. But
[1:53:25] once a day, take some space for yourself
[1:53:28] and just touch in with self. Now, if
[1:53:30] you're sitting there going, "Okay, what
[1:53:31] do I want to be when I grow up? It
[1:53:33] should happen." It's not the way it
[1:53:34] works. Your unconscious mind speaks to
[1:53:35] you in emotions, in analogies, and it
[1:53:38] sets you up to go back into life to be
[1:53:41] able to see connections and start
[1:53:43] navigating in new and interesting ways,
[1:53:45] ways that are unique to your heart's
[1:53:47] desires about what you like and what you
[1:53:49] don't like. and to know that those
[1:53:51] choices are in goodness and in keeping
[1:53:53] with who you are. I can't tell you what
[1:53:55] your deepest heart's desires are. Only
[1:53:57] you can come to that clarity, but you
[1:53:59] need to do it through a practice where
[1:54:00] you're not trying to be the football
[1:54:02] coach, the mom, the best this. You need
[1:54:04] to listen to yourself, but you also need
[1:54:06] to keep fulfilling those roles because
[1:54:08] he and I both agree, and I mentioned
[1:54:09] this several times because I get asked
[1:54:11] all the time, how do I find my calling?
[1:54:13] You find it while working your butt off
[1:54:16] doing something else. That's how you
[1:54:18] don't sit around going that's my
[1:54:19] calling.
[1:54:20] >> You work your butt off doing that
[1:54:21] something else and you hate it. So you
[1:54:23] do something that you hate a little less
[1:54:24] and you do something you hate a little
[1:54:25] less maybe and eventually you get pulled
[1:54:27] forward to this thing that is your key
[1:54:29] self
[1:54:30] >> and there's not necessarily a sing cuz
[1:54:31] people often when they talk about
[1:54:33] finding a find your passion passion is a
[1:54:35] word happens to be singular which can be
[1:54:37] somewhat
[1:54:38] >> distorting. Yeah. Because then you think
[1:54:40] almost like an Easter egg I have to go I
[1:54:41] have to go search for it and there's
[1:54:42] going to be one of them somewhere.
[1:54:43] >> I can handle fiveyear chunks. Maybe this
[1:54:45] just reflects my years and years of like
[1:54:47] getting degrees where it's like 3 to 5
[1:54:49] years for this then 3 to 5 years for
[1:54:51] that posttock, graduate school, etc. I'm
[1:54:53] navigating from 50 to 55 now. That's
[1:54:55] what I know. I know what I'm going to
[1:54:57] carry forward. Exercise, faith,
[1:55:00] hydration. I know what I'm going to
[1:55:02] carry forward, but I don't know what's
[1:55:03] coming next. I've never been 60 before.
[1:55:06] >> So, the end of the day, and there were
[1:55:08] two questions that I had for you here
[1:55:09] based on some of the research. Um, the
[1:55:10] first is I'll say it's a technical one,
[1:55:13] but sleeping on your side. I heard
[1:55:15] there's um there's different outcomes
[1:55:17] for your brain based on how you sleep at
[1:55:20] night.
[1:55:20] >> When you sleep, you have a wash out of
[1:55:22] waste products from the brain.
[1:55:24] >> Very important for offsetting dementia.
[1:55:26] Very important for feeling rested. And
[1:55:28] if that's not enough incentive, very
[1:55:29] important for for getting rid of bags
[1:55:31] under your eyes. You know, in the
[1:55:32] morning when you're Have you ever seen
[1:55:33] yourself after one night's shitty sleep?
[1:55:35] >> Oh my gosh.
[1:55:36] >> Right. Sleep two nights well. You see
[1:55:38] yourself?
[1:55:38] >> Yeah. Yeah. What the hell?
[1:55:39] >> Yeah. You're handsome self again,
[1:55:40] Stephen.
[1:55:41] >> You know, so what is that? That's
[1:55:44] accumulation of of lymph and other
[1:55:46] fluids and waste products here. This
[1:55:47] >> one flushed out.
[1:55:48] >> Yeah.
[1:55:49] >> Really?
[1:55:49] >> So during sleep, there's this lymphatic
[1:55:51] clearance. Um, and it does seem it can
[1:55:54] be slightly but significantly improved
[1:55:57] by sleeping on your side with your head
[1:55:59] slightly elevated. We used to think it
[1:56:01] was slightly inverted. Now we think it's
[1:56:02] slightly elevated. When you get up in
[1:56:04] the morning, I'm actually a big fan.
[1:56:06] I've got one of these inversion tables,
[1:56:08] but most people won't, you know, where
[1:56:09] you lie back and you go upside down. No,
[1:56:11] you hang upside down. This feels good on
[1:56:12] my back. But some people get the shaker.
[1:56:15] Some people do some jump rope. You can
[1:56:16] just kind of shake out and move because
[1:56:18] the lymphatic system is really
[1:56:19] incredible. It's one-way valves stacked
[1:56:22] up from your feet all the way up to your
[1:56:23] brain. The people think about the the
[1:56:25] role of lymph and lymph nodes in immune
[1:56:28] checkpoints and immune system. That's
[1:56:29] all true of course, but the lymph system
[1:56:32] is taking liquid and it's dumping it
[1:56:35] back into your blood circulation and it
[1:56:37] can accumulate when you're lying or when
[1:56:39] you're you know this is lympadeema is
[1:56:42] you know swelling of the lower limbs
[1:56:43] etc. you so you need to move when you
[1:56:45] move the you essentially squeezing the
[1:56:48] lymph in these one-way valves up to dump
[1:56:50] back into the general circulation. Your
[1:56:52] brain doesn't have that mechanism. So
[1:56:54] miraculously in sleep you get the
[1:56:58] aststerytes the gal cells actually
[1:57:00] create a bit of extra space in the brain
[1:57:02] between neural tissue that allows the
[1:57:06] waste products the glimp as we call it
[1:57:08] ga lymph glymph to flow up and out
[1:57:11] towards the surface of the brain and
[1:57:13] then it dumps out of the brain
[1:57:16] still in the body of course and down and
[1:57:18] out actually the puffiness of the eyes
[1:57:20] the anterior chamber of the eye some of
[1:57:22] the cloudiness of the eye these systems
[1:57:24] are shared and actually some of it
[1:57:26] actually comes out through the nose
[1:57:28] which is wild but get upright move
[1:57:32] around there's a a bunch of ways of like
[1:57:35] you know these like tapping shaking it
[1:57:37] looks silly it looks kind of crazy looks
[1:57:38] like you've been in California too long
[1:57:40] if you do these things but it can help
[1:57:41] move lymph out but sleeping does that
[1:57:44] clears glimp the other thing that's
[1:57:45] there's a recent study published in
[1:57:47] proceedings in the national academy of
[1:57:48] sciences that I do detail in the book
[1:57:50] which is a short meditation
[1:57:53] believe it or not, increases glimpy
[1:57:56] clearance in the daytime. Now, this is
[1:57:58] super interesting because folks like you
[1:58:00] and me always want to figure out how we
[1:58:02] can get by with less sleep and still
[1:58:04] feel awesome and not short circuit our
[1:58:05] health. Turns out that the regular
[1:58:07] meditators are probably able to shave an
[1:58:10] hour off their sleep, 20 minutes a day
[1:58:13] meditation, because they're getting the
[1:58:14] glimp clearance during their meditation.
[1:58:17] And so in sleep, the timing of sleep and
[1:58:20] how long you sleep has a lot to do with
[1:58:21] body temperature, but also there seems
[1:58:24] to be a drive for glimp clearance that
[1:58:26] says you need to sleep longer, which is
[1:58:28] why one of the reasons why when you're
[1:58:29] sick, you sleep a lot more. One of them.
[1:58:31] There are others as well. So short, I'm
[1:58:34] now back to meditating. And my
[1:58:36] meditation practice is pretty feeble
[1:58:38] compared to many. But here's what I do.
[1:58:40] I wake up in the morning and the first
[1:58:42] thing I do is 10 breaths of meditation.
[1:58:45] I tell myself if I can't concentrate for
[1:58:46] 10 breaths without my mind going
[1:58:48] elsewhere, what kind of day am I going
[1:58:50] to have? And also, what kind of human am
[1:58:52] I if I can't organize myself for 10
[1:58:54] breaths? Then I get out of bed, I
[1:58:55] usually go straight to the bathroom,
[1:58:58] pee, then I go hydrate, then I get
[1:59:00] sunlight, then I try and get some
[1:59:02] movement. Although these days I because
[1:59:03] of the dog, I get a walk in, then I come
[1:59:05] back, drink some caffeine, exercise,
[1:59:07] >> and the 10 step starts and it starts all
[1:59:10] over again. We are this rhythm. No human
[1:59:12] being has ever escaped these circadian
[1:59:15] influences in cortisol and melatonin.
[1:59:17] >> Do you take uh you don't really talk in
[1:59:19] depth about supplements or recommend
[1:59:20] supplements?
[1:59:20] >> Oh, I do. I always get asked what should
[1:59:22] I take? I talk about alpha GPC,
[1:59:24] elyroine. I talk about theine. I talk
[1:59:27] about theine's use with lowdose caffeine
[1:59:30] for enhanced task switching, which is a
[1:59:32] very interesting literature. I talk
[1:59:34] about um ways to improve sleep.
[1:59:37] Everything from tart cherry to apagenine
[1:59:40] to queivic um which is one of the doras
[1:59:43] one of these uh orrexin drugs I talk I
[1:59:46] oh I
[1:59:46] >> but what do you take every day
[1:59:48] >> you got another three hours really is a
[1:59:50] lot
[1:59:51] >> n not really
[1:59:52] >> what are you like if you had to pick
[1:59:53] five if they said to you can only do
[1:59:55] five for the rest of your life
[1:59:57] >> what five supplements would it be
[1:59:58] >> well if somebody's sleeping terrifically
[2:00:00] well I'd say nothing for sleep if
[2:00:02] they're not sleeping terrifically well I
[2:00:03] would suggest they they try magnesium 3
[2:00:06] and8 or magnesium and bislycinate.
[2:00:08] They're interchangeable for sleep. Okay,
[2:00:10] that's one. I'm a big believer in
[2:00:12] getting at least one gram per day of EPA
[2:00:16] omega-3.
[2:00:17] >> Okay,
[2:00:17] >> I suggest getting it because it's now
[2:00:19] available generic and cheap, but
[2:00:21] prescription form, Lovaza,
[2:00:23] >> EPA, would
[2:00:24] >> that form of of omega-3 that's that you
[2:00:27] want for brain health, probably also for
[2:00:30] cardiovascular health and reduced
[2:00:31] inflammation.
[2:00:31] >> How do I know if that's the omega-3 that
[2:00:33] I have?
[2:00:33] >> You need a prescription. Oh, you need a
[2:00:35] prescription.
[2:00:35] >> But here's what's awesome about it. It's
[2:00:37] very high concentration EPA and it's
[2:00:39] cleared of all heavy metals.
[2:00:40] >> Okay?
[2:00:42] >> And it's very very inexpensive. So the
[2:00:45] challenge is getting a doctor to
[2:00:46] prescribe it for you. Just tell them you
[2:00:48] want Lavaza or else you're going to take
[2:00:49] a bunch of stuff over the counter. You
[2:00:51] might get mercury poisoning. There you
[2:00:52] go.
[2:00:53] >> Don't threaten your doctor, but you get
[2:00:54] the idea. So that's for mental health,
[2:00:56] physical health. Big believer in
[2:00:58] boosting omega-3s. Also, I don't eat
[2:01:00] fatty fish. I don't like salmon unless
[2:01:02] it's sushi and like I'm just not good at
[2:01:04] eating seafood. Um, so that's two
[2:01:07] vitamin D.
[2:01:08] >> Vitamin D.
[2:01:09] >> 5,000 to 10,000 IUs per day. People be
[2:01:11] like, "Oh, you don't know that. You need
[2:01:12] to blood test. You don't want to over
[2:01:14] Okay, don't take 25,000." But most
[2:01:17] people are underdosing vitamin D. And
[2:01:20] also, I'm not I know it pisses people
[2:01:22] off, but I'm not trying to like hit the
[2:01:24] RDA, okay? Just like I
[2:01:27] >> the recommended daily loss.
[2:01:28] >> Yeah. I'm not just trying to hit the
[2:01:29] RDA. I'm also not trying to like blow a
[2:01:31] gasket by taking too much. Like, let's
[2:01:33] be rational here, right? I'm trying to
[2:01:35] get to a point where I can derive
[2:01:39] safety but additional benefits. And it's
[2:01:41] clear that dosing of 5,000 IU per day
[2:01:43] has some additional benefits that go way
[2:01:45] beyond conventional benefits of vitamin
[2:01:49] D that are discussed. For instance,
[2:01:51] hormone health. Like I can see my bloods
[2:01:53] getting better when I take 5,000 as
[2:01:55] opposed to 3,000 IU of vitamin D. And
[2:01:58] I'm not changing anything else. So
[2:01:59] vitamin D and I get sunlight. Maybe
[2:02:02] 10,000 was a little high, but I take
[2:02:04] five to 10. Um, so that's three. And
[2:02:06] then the other two would be if you're
[2:02:09] going to exercise or work intensely late
[2:02:13] in the day or if you're going to if you
[2:02:15] really want a stimulant to go with your
[2:02:17] caffeine. By the way, 90% of the world
[2:02:19] consumes caffeine every day. So that's a
[2:02:20] foregone conclusion that they're already
[2:02:22] taking it. I am a big fan of alpha GPC.
[2:02:26] I am 600 milligrams or 900 milligrams of
[2:02:29] of it. It increases choline which
[2:02:31] increases acetylcholine.
[2:02:33] >> Oh, I feel like acetylcholine in the
[2:02:34] cupboard.
[2:02:35] >> Yeah. Which can increase your ability to
[2:02:36] focus. I'm a big believer in this in not
[2:02:40] for everyone, but rather than going
[2:02:41] straight to a a prescription stimulant.
[2:02:43] And I'll tell you why. There are very
[2:02:45] very few things that can increase focus
[2:02:47] and energy that don't damage your sleep.
[2:02:50] But even better, alpha GPC gives you
[2:02:53] more REM sleep. Nobody wants to hear
[2:02:55] this, but it's absolutely true. But the
[2:02:57] other thing, the important caveat is
[2:02:59] that it can increase something called
[2:03:00] TMAO, which can increase cardiovascular
[2:03:03] risk. So, a simple way to mitigate that
[2:03:05] is you take 600 milligrams of of of a
[2:03:08] garlic capsule, and it doesn't smell
[2:03:09] like garlic. So, I kind of tuck that in
[2:03:11] with it. And you can take it anytime,
[2:03:12] same day.
[2:03:13] >> Is that five?
[2:03:15] >> That's five cuz I threw garlic in there.
[2:03:17] No, because we said it was um magnesium
[2:03:19] bislycinator 3 and 8. We said um
[2:03:21] omega-3. We said vitamin D and then we
[2:03:23] said alpha GPC would be my preferable
[2:03:27] thing to nicotine or prescription
[2:03:30] stimulants and I'm but caffeine is great
[2:03:32] great data on caffeine um in fact 200 to
[2:03:35] 400 milligrams of caffeine per day has
[2:03:39] been shown to offset dementia in
[2:03:40] meaningful ways meaningful ways it's not
[2:03:43] causal it's correlative but those data
[2:03:45] are covered in there as well so I'm I'm
[2:03:47] going to continue drinking my yerba mate
[2:03:48] and my coffee and then the so I suppose
[2:03:51] the Last one
[2:03:53] >> I have,
[2:03:54] >> you know, that's kind of like you Oh,
[2:03:56] creatine.
[2:03:57] >> Yeah.
[2:03:57] >> Yeah. So, I was going to say dealer's
[2:03:58] choice, but creatine seems to work best
[2:04:00] for cognitive enhancement when you're a
[2:04:02] bit sleepd deprived or stressed. This
[2:04:03] kind of thing. I don't know. I've been
[2:04:05] taking creatine since I was 17 or 18,
[2:04:08] somewhere in there. 5 to 10 grams per
[2:04:10] day. I like it because it I mean, I'm
[2:04:13] trying to maintain or build strength and
[2:04:15] it puts water in your muscles. It makes
[2:04:16] you stronger and it feels good to be
[2:04:18] strong. and you got you got trained, but
[2:04:21] that's why I take it.
[2:04:22] >> Okay. The last thing I want to ask you
[2:04:23] about is um I saw a clip, I think it was
[2:04:25] one of your most viral clips um of all
[2:04:27] time where you just talked about how
[2:04:28] going for a walk after you eat can have
[2:04:31] a really big impact on your body.
[2:04:35] >> Yes.
[2:04:35] >> That most people don't realize.
[2:04:36] >> Most people don't realize. There's a
[2:04:38] section I think walking is necessary but
[2:04:40] not sufficient for health. You know, I
[2:04:43] don't think you need to count 10,000
[2:04:44] steps per day, but I I think 7,000 to
[2:04:47] 8,000 steps per day should be the goal.
[2:04:49] You can do it. I'll pace while I'm on
[2:04:51] calls. I take every when I finish a
[2:04:53] podcast with my team, we take a walk. I
[2:04:56] I'm always trying to take stairs. When I
[2:04:58] travel, I take stairs, not the
[2:04:59] escalator. You arrive a little sweatier
[2:05:02] to your plane, but you're also rucking
[2:05:04] your bags and this kind of thing. So
[2:05:06] walking is is incredible because those
[2:05:08] low-level repeated muscle contractions
[2:05:10] really help buffer blood glucose
[2:05:12] especially after a meal. But there's
[2:05:14] this wild study where the solius muscle
[2:05:18] the one that gives the calf width width
[2:05:20] you know when you do seated calf raises
[2:05:22] right you're it's this muscle underneath
[2:05:24] the gastro nemius right
[2:05:27] >> that muscle is about 1% of your total
[2:05:29] musculature
[2:05:30] >> but it has an outsized and significant
[2:05:32] glucose utilization interesting so in
[2:05:35] this study which is not practical they
[2:05:38] had people do what they called soius
[2:05:40] push-ups which are basically
[2:05:41] non-weighted seated calf raises while
[2:05:44] sitting and they had them do it
[2:05:45] repeatedly and they looked at blood
[2:05:47] glucose regulation and that powerfully
[2:05:50] regulated blood glucose increases. It
[2:05:52] buffered the peaks and it turns out that
[2:05:54] this is related to walking. So I'm not
[2:05:56] suggesting unless perhaps you're stuck
[2:05:57] on a plane or while while in the office
[2:05:59] that you you know if you're a knee
[2:06:01] bouncer rejoice. You know you're doing
[2:06:03] yourself good. Um but this movement
[2:06:07] really seems to help blood glucose
[2:06:09] management. Now some people say, "Oh
[2:06:11] yeah, this is so silly. They're talking
[2:06:12] about all day you're going to do this.
[2:06:13] Yeah, some people probably accuse us of
[2:06:15] this. No, what I'm saying is walk
[2:06:16] because when you walk, you're getting
[2:06:17] that low-level repeated muscle
[2:06:18] contraction. It's a slow twitch muscle
[2:06:20] and it seems to be I don't want to call
[2:06:23] it a sink, but it seems to be an
[2:06:25] unsuspected um furnace for glucose
[2:06:29] utilization.
[2:06:29] >> And why does that matter?
[2:06:31] >> You don't want big peaks in glucose. You
[2:06:33] can manage them. I mean, you get more
[2:06:34] insulin will be secreted if you have a
[2:06:36] big peak in in glucose. That's why
[2:06:38] insulin's there to make sure that um
[2:06:40] glucose is managed. You don't want it
[2:06:41] too high. You don't want to be
[2:06:42] hypoglycemic. In fact, that can be
[2:06:44] deadly. You don't want to be
[2:06:45] hypoglycemic. But when people eat, they
[2:06:48] experience an increase in blood glucose.
[2:06:50] And while the peaks are manageable, if
[2:06:53] you're buffering them, so you're you're
[2:06:54] you're sort of flattening out those
[2:06:55] peaks with, you know, 5 to 10 minutes of
[2:06:57] walking after a meal, you will have
[2:07:00] fewer energy crashes. In theory, over
[2:07:03] time, your metabolic health can be
[2:07:06] better or at least cannot get worse. And
[2:07:09] you know there's Dr. Rhonda Patrick has
[2:07:12] has pointed out there's a sort of a
[2:07:13] comparison study where people either
[2:07:15] walked after meals were for 30 minutes
[2:07:18] or or so on per day or they did you know
[2:07:20] 10 air squats every 45 minutes or so
[2:07:23] just stand up and do air and it looks
[2:07:24] like they were comparable. Maybe the air
[2:07:26] squats were better. I don't know about
[2:07:28] you but I'm not going to stand up and do
[2:07:29] air squats in a restaurant or when I get
[2:07:32] out into the street of New York if I
[2:07:33] have the great, you know, experience of
[2:07:36] having dinner with you and James Ston
[2:07:37] again. the last time you shared a meal
[2:07:39] like I'm not going to do air squats. Oh,
[2:07:40] we're going to walk. So, I think I'm not
[2:07:42] being disparaging of of Rhonda. I think
[2:07:45] she was pointing out a a mechanistic
[2:07:46] feature, not not a not a a protocol, but
[2:07:50] necessarily, but if you're stuck on a
[2:07:52] plane, you could do some air squats. You
[2:07:53] could you could, you know, bounce your
[2:07:54] knee. And, you know, non exercise um
[2:07:56] induced thermogenesis is a massive
[2:07:59] calorie burn. You know, people who move
[2:08:01] a lot tend to be rather thin. They tend
[2:08:04] to be lean. it the studies on those like
[2:08:07] I go back to my undergraduate days when
[2:08:08] we worked on metabolism and physiology
[2:08:10] like Rothwell and Stock and some other
[2:08:12] folks these scientists who figured out
[2:08:15] that there were people who could eat a
[2:08:17] lot more than you would think they
[2:08:18] needed but they always stayed lean turns
[2:08:20] out they're moving a lot during the day
[2:08:22] burning up to 1,800 calories a day. Now,
[2:08:26] that's extreme, but some people who just
[2:08:27] move a bit more at a thousand calories
[2:08:30] per day. And there's this paper
[2:08:32] published in the journal Science, which
[2:08:33] is a great journal, not as great as
[2:08:34] nature, but the Brits get the cake
[2:08:37] there. And people will argue, but it's
[2:08:39] true. That the decline in metabolism
[2:08:42] that we all associate with aging, like,
[2:08:43] oh, metabolism slows as you age. Turns
[2:08:45] out that's not true. Turns out that if
[2:08:47] people maintain muscle mass, that
[2:08:49] doesn't happen. And you say, okay, well,
[2:08:50] then aging is muscle mass loss is
[2:08:52] reduction in metabolism. Actually, no.
[2:08:55] people are moving less and I've been as
[2:08:57] everyone else has been absorbed with
[2:08:59] this longevity thing. I look at older
[2:09:01] people and in particular people in their
[2:09:04] 80s and you know what I see a lot of a
[2:09:06] lot less spontaneous movement and a lot
[2:09:09] of mouth breathing [gasps]
[2:09:11] [panting and sighs] which at rest is not
[2:09:13] good. We know this that deprivives the
[2:09:15] brain of oxygen. It's not good. You can
[2:09:17] mouth breathe during exercise,
[2:09:18] physiological size, etc. But you don't
[2:09:20] want to be a mouth breather in sleep or
[2:09:22] in wakefulness. And then you host people
[2:09:24] like James Hollis or Twyla Tharp who's I
[2:09:28] don't know her exact age. I think she's
[2:09:29] in her early 80s, but choreographer,
[2:09:31] world-class dancer who deadlifts a lot
[2:09:35] and works out for 2 hours a day at 5 in
[2:09:38] the morning, who boxes, who
[2:09:40] choreographs. They're so mentally sharp.
[2:09:43] They're physically lean. There are other
[2:09:44] examples I could rattle off and you go,
[2:09:46] "What is happening?" Mike Snyder, my
[2:09:48] colleague at Stanford, who's not that
[2:09:49] old, but he's in his 70s. You look at
[2:09:51] them, you go, "What's going on?" And
[2:09:53] they're moving all the time. They're
[2:09:55] moving. They're mentally active. They
[2:09:56] have posture like you. They're
[2:09:58] exercising, sure, but they are moving,
[2:10:00] moving, moving. The spontaneous movement
[2:10:01] is burning calories. That's one piece,
[2:10:03] but it's also the glucose regulation.
[2:10:06] It's the fact that they're not sitting
[2:10:08] stagnant in their own it, you know,
[2:10:11] there's Bla Norton has pointed out quite
[2:10:14] beautifully actually that what's the
[2:10:16] problem with caloric excess? Okay,
[2:10:17] there's the fat aesthetic piece, right?
[2:10:19] body fat aesthetic piece. But that
[2:10:21] aside, it's that you have a toxicity of
[2:10:25] over of of energy. The world's expert in
[2:10:28] mitochondria came on my podcast
[2:10:29] recently, Jared Ruer. I mean, he's
[2:10:32] phenom in the the biochemistry and the
[2:10:34] the genetics of mitochondria, and he
[2:10:36] will tell you, he's like, when you
[2:10:38] overload a system and therefore a cell
[2:10:42] with calories, the mitochondria, the
[2:10:44] whole system gets sick. the energy
[2:10:45] management system of a cell gets sick
[2:10:48] and your metabolism, this thing that you
[2:10:49] call your metabolism is the collective
[2:10:52] makeup of all these trillions of cells.
[2:10:54] So you jam too much fuel in there, like
[2:10:57] they don't work as well.
[2:10:59] >> And caloric restriction at times might
[2:11:02] be beneficial. Cloric maintenance maybe
[2:11:03] a little bit more, at times a little bit
[2:11:05] less. This is good. So movement,
[2:11:07] movement, movement because it's
[2:11:09] obviously calories in, calories out.
[2:11:11] >> You know what this is, right?
[2:11:12] >> You're telling me I need to stop.
[2:11:13] >> No, no, no, no, no. This is not a clock.
[2:11:15] This is a
[2:11:17] This is a This is a CO2 monitor.
[2:11:19] >> I thought it was a lux meter. Okay.
[2:11:21] Okay. How high Oh, we have a lot of CO2
[2:11:23] in here.
[2:11:23] >> Yeah. It's It's something that we always
[2:11:24] have in the studio because I I think I
[2:11:26] learned over time that the higher this
[2:11:27] got, the more sort of tired I felt.
[2:11:29] >> And obviously because there's not great
[2:11:30] ventilation in this studio here. We
[2:11:32] started at 600 and we're now at 1,700.
[2:11:34] >> And we're under short wavelength light.
[2:11:36] But before we came in here, what did we
[2:11:38] do? We went outside and we had a blast
[2:11:40] of full spectrum
[2:11:42] >> sunlight.
[2:11:42] >> Sunlight. Yeah. Yeah, I always I Yeah, I
[2:11:45] think about this a lot now when I'm
[2:11:46] trying to do good cognitive work. I read
[2:11:47] some studies that if this gets above a
[2:11:48] thousand parts per million, cognitive
[2:11:50] performance starts to go down. So,
[2:11:51] >> well, if your cognitive performance gets
[2:11:53] any better, we're all hosed cuz you're
[2:11:55] >> you're very kind, Andrew. Thank you so
[2:11:58] much for so many reasons. It's such an
[2:11:59] honor to get to learn from you. But I
[2:12:01] you know, there's I'll be honest,
[2:12:03] there's no books that I'm waiting for.
[2:12:05] There's no books that I've been waiting
[2:12:06] for. Is there any book in my life that
[2:12:08] I've been waiting for? No, there's not.
[2:12:10] This is the only book in my life that
[2:12:11] I've been waiting for for years now. And
[2:12:14] um I say that to say because I I I
[2:12:17] believe in your approach. I believe in
[2:12:18] your approach, your scientific rigor,
[2:12:20] the nuance you apply, the stories that
[2:12:21] you tell, the experiences you've had,
[2:12:23] the unbelievable almost like mesmerizing
[2:12:25] ability you have to remember things,
[2:12:27] remember name. You didn't reference one
[2:12:29] study without referencing like the
[2:12:31] author of the study. And I've like never
[2:12:32] seen I was thinking how the has he
[2:12:34] done that? Like how do you know all the
[2:12:35] names of all these people? years of
[2:12:37] years of training and advisers who
[2:12:39] drilled into me that attribution is
[2:12:42] important.
[2:12:43] >> It's remarkable. There's so much
[2:12:45] information out there around health and
[2:12:47] all the things that we've graced today.
[2:12:48] But um I was waiting for your book
[2:12:50] because I'm not very good at reading
[2:12:52] books, right?
[2:12:53] >> Well, there's an audio version too if
[2:12:54] you prefer. [laughter] It'll be a long
[2:12:56] run.
[2:12:56] >> No, I'm trying to build the anter and
[2:12:58] mids singular cortex, Andrew. I'm going
[2:12:59] to I was I I always said to myself
[2:13:00] whenever he whenever he publishes that
[2:13:02] bloody book, I will read the whole thing
[2:13:04] from cover to cover and uh this is the
[2:13:07] first book in the world I believe that's
[2:13:08] been printed.
[2:13:09] >> Yeah. Can this is an opportunity to say
[2:13:11] what I've been waiting this entire
[2:13:12] podcast to say the copy you're holding
[2:13:14] in your hand is the first the very first
[2:13:17] and the only hardcover copy that I have
[2:13:20] or have touched or have seen. And I'm
[2:13:21] gifting it to you if and I'm gifting it
[2:13:23] to you. I want you to have the book.
[2:13:24] Seriously, I want you to have it. and um
[2:13:28] and I'll sign it if you want or not sign
[2:13:30] it if you don't. But um it would be an
[2:13:32] honor for me uh to be able to do that
[2:13:35] because I've learned so much from you.
[2:13:36] You've been an amazing colleague and
[2:13:38] friend and and supporter, but also just
[2:13:42] really a you're an amazing human being.
[2:13:44] You're a truly good human being. And I'm
[2:13:47] I've spent time with you on and off Mike
[2:13:50] and you know the number one thing that
[2:13:51] you need to know about Stephen is he is
[2:13:54] who he appears to be. He's a super kind,
[2:13:57] curious, loving person. Flawed like the
[2:14:00] rest of us,
[2:14:02] >> albeit less flawed than me. That's
[2:14:04] clear. Um, but you really are a a great
[2:14:08] human being and you're trying to do
[2:14:10] great things in the world, for everyone
[2:14:12] around you and for the world. So, um,
[2:14:15] it's a vastly lesser token of of my
[2:14:17] gratitude to you for all those things
[2:14:19] than than it it could be or should be,
[2:14:21] but I'd like to give it to you.
[2:14:22] >> No, it's such an honor. I was like
[2:14:24] thinking of ways to steal it. So
[2:14:25] [laughter] so glad.
[2:14:26] >> Well, I'm gifting it to you. I'm gifting
[2:14:28] it to you and and um and now I'm gonna
[2:14:31] go read your book and I look forward to
[2:14:32] your next book.
[2:14:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's such
[2:14:35] a such a beautiful book and I I'm really
[2:14:38] glad that it netted out at the size that
[2:14:40] it did as well. It is I think the
[2:14:42] perfect size and I think you've you've
[2:14:43] done a wonderful job throughout as I was
[2:14:45] flicking through as you're speaking and
[2:14:46] jumping to different sections. I think
[2:14:47] you've done a wonderful job of making it
[2:14:49] really accessible because, you know, I'm
[2:14:51] not the smartest cookie as it relates to
[2:14:53] science, but I was able to understand
[2:14:55] everything and I think that's a really
[2:14:56] remarkable thing. It is also gorgeous.
[2:14:59] >> Um, I dare I say, and I'll probably get
[2:15:01] up for this, but I think uh
[2:15:03] sometimes the the British version of
[2:15:04] books is is good-looking and then the
[2:15:06] American versions, I always wonder why
[2:15:07] they're a little bit uglier.
[2:15:08] >> The the aesthetics in Britain, you know,
[2:15:11] um like
[2:15:13] >> people dress really well in Britain.
[2:15:15] They take care. They like pay attention
[2:15:16] to these little details like in their
[2:15:18] shoes and things like what do you call
[2:15:19] it? Smart. Like they dress really smart,
[2:15:21] right? I'm a big fan of like Ben Sherman
[2:15:23] and Fred Perry clothes and things like
[2:15:24] that and like the the details are what
[2:15:27] make those look so cool.
[2:15:29] >> Well, this felt like a very sort of
[2:15:30] European designed beautiful book and uh
[2:15:33] and also your podcast is incredible. I,
[2:15:35] you know, I have to say so many of the
[2:15:36] guests that I've had on here are because
[2:15:38] I listen to your show and I get mind
[2:15:40] blown by the guests that you have on
[2:15:42] your show and then I'm like to my team,
[2:15:43] "Oh my god, this person is unbelievable.
[2:15:45] He said this one." And I'm sending your
[2:15:46] podcast all around whenever my someone
[2:15:48] in my life is really struggling with
[2:15:49] something. I go out and search usually
[2:15:52] on YouTube and then I stumble across
[2:15:53] your channel and find an episode that
[2:15:54] you've done about that particular thing
[2:15:55] and I'm always sending them around. So I
[2:15:57] highly recommend anyone that subscribes
[2:15:58] to my channel to go and subscribe over
[2:16:00] on um your show as well. I'll link it
[2:16:02] below so everyone can get it. So, it
[2:16:03] turns out Huberman Lab is the sort of
[2:16:05] gateway drug to Diary of the [laughter]
[2:16:07] CEO for science and health content.
[2:16:09] >> Literally, legally, it's worth being
[2:16:11] honest about it. Um, and you've got to
[2:16:13] get the book. It's finally here. Um,
[2:16:16] comes out September. So, this episode
[2:16:17] will will air in September. So, it
[2:16:19] should be out now for pre-order or
[2:16:20] order. You've got to go get it. It's
[2:16:22] it's the for me the definitive book on
[2:16:24] this subject. Thank you so much, Andrew.
[2:16:26] >> Thank you, Stephen.
[2:16:27] >> Love this conversation. I hope to have
[2:16:28] another conversation sometime soon.
[2:16:30] >> Yes.
[2:16:30] >> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy
[2:16:32] algorithm where they know exactly what
[2:16:34] video you would like to watch next based
[2:16:36] on AI and all of your viewing behavior.
[2:16:38] And the algorithm says that this video
[2:16:41] is the perfect video for you. It's
[2:16:43] different for everybody looking right
[2:16:44] now. Check this video out and I bet you
[2:16:47] you might love it.