Transcript
[0:00] People regularly look for personal
[0:03] generalizations, personality
[0:04] generalizations about leaders.
[0:07] Perhaps the commonest generalization is
[0:10] that leaders have to be charismatic.
[0:12] Nonsense. Some leaders are charismatic.
[0:15] Stalin
[0:16] Augusto Pinochet, the dictator of Chile,
[0:19] totally uncharismatic. There are about
[0:21] 37 ways to be an effective leader, of
[0:24] which um charisma is is one. And any
[0:28] question that you or anybody else would
[0:30] ask about how can we [snorts] generalize
[0:32] about leaders' persona There are some
[0:34] generalizations about leaders, but not
[0:37] personality generalizations, because
[0:39] there are different ways to be a
[0:41] effective leader.
[0:43] >> Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,
[0:45] where we discuss science [music] and
[0:46] science-based tools for everyday life.
[0:50] >> [music]
[0:52] >> I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor
[0:54] of neurobiology and ophthalmology at
[0:56] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest
[0:59] today is Dr. Jared Diamond. Dr. Jared
[1:01] Diamond is a professor emeritus at
[1:03] University of California, Los Angeles.
[1:06] He's done research in biology,
[1:07] anthropology, and frankly, in so many
[1:09] areas that there really isn't an
[1:11] appropriate title for him. He's also a
[1:13] renowned author of books such as Guns,
[1:16] Germs, and Steel, for which he was
[1:18] awarded a Pulitzer Prize. He has also
[1:20] been awarded the National Medal of
[1:21] Science and a MacArthur Genius Award.
[1:24] Today we discuss topics related to
[1:25] Jared's most recent book, which is about
[1:27] leaders and leadership. It is entitled
[1:30] Prophets, Prophets, Coaches, and Kings.
[1:32] We discuss political leaders, religious
[1:34] leaders, leaders in business, and in
[1:37] sports. Today you're going to hear a lot
[1:39] of myths dispelled, including the common
[1:41] myth that charisma is requisite for
[1:43] successful leadership. And we discuss a
[1:45] lot of incredible biology. For instance,
[1:47] why observing birds, yes birds, because
[1:50] of their reliance on sight and sound,
[1:52] makes them one of the best windows into
[1:53] understanding human behavior and human
[1:55] nature. We also discuss Jared himself,
[1:58] because as you'll soon see, he is an
[2:00] incredible and very unusual human being.
[2:02] We discuss his obsessive curiosity
[2:04] that's been there since childhood and
[2:06] how it's migrated from topic to topic,
[2:08] book to book, paper to paper, and what
[2:10] his process is for taking hard questions
[2:13] into the laboratory and going out into
[2:15] the wild, literally, to observe things
[2:17] in their natural state and then bring
[2:18] back all of that knowledge in a form
[2:20] that is unlike any other scientist or
[2:22] writer. So, what follows is discussion
[2:24] with an absolute luminary of science and
[2:27] public education. And it's one that I'm
[2:29] certain will inform, enchant, and
[2:31] inspire you. Before we begin, I'd like
[2:33] to emphasize that this podcast is
[2:35] separate from my teaching and research
[2:36] roles at Stanford. It is, however, part
[2:38] of my desire and effort to bring zero
[2:40] cost to consumer information about
[2:41] science and science-related tools to the
[2:44] general public. In keeping with that
[2:45] theme, today's episode does include
[2:47] sponsors. And now, for my discussion
[2:50] with Dr. Jared Diamond. Dr. Jared
[2:52] Diamond, welcome.
[2:53] >> It's a pleasure to be with you.
[2:56] >> Delighted to have you here. I'm such a
[2:57] fan of your books. Guns, Germs, and
[2:59] Steel was the first one I read and I'm
[3:01] going to resist the temptation to ask
[3:03] about the topics in each of all of your
[3:06] books
[3:07] and mainly focus on your book, which is
[3:09] Prophets, phonetically the same, but
[3:11] Prophets as in making profits and
[3:13] prophets as in who become prophets and
[3:16] what they are, Coaches and Kings, When
[3:19] do leaders matter?
[3:20] I think now more than ever people are
[3:22] thinking about modern leadership and
[3:25] themes of past in leadership.
[3:27] First, I would like to know, what is a
[3:29] prophet? p r o p h e t
[3:32] >> Prophet means
[3:34] for [snorts] my purposes, religious
[3:36] leaders because my book about leadership
[3:39] looks at leadership in four spheres,
[3:42] the political sphere,
[3:44] the business sphere,
[3:46] sports,
[3:48] and finally, religion. I use the word
[3:51] prophets to refer to religious leaders
[3:55] because it makes for catchy prophets,
[3:56] prophets, coach, coaches and kings. Uh I
[3:59] don't care about whether whether they
[4:01] prophesy the future. It was simply my my
[4:04] word for religious leaders.
[4:06] >> Let's talk about leadership in each of
[4:07] those categories and people that stand
[4:09] out to you as the lightest and darkest
[4:13] in each of those categories. And we can
[4:15] go into the middle of the continuum if
[4:17] you want as well, but your book starts
[4:19] off talking about Hitler, which for the
[4:22] vast majority of people alive is
[4:24] considered one of the darkest
[4:26] leaders
[4:28] uh ever. Tell us about Hitler and what
[4:30] you learned about him that perhaps can
[4:32] inform how we think about leadership
[4:34] more generally.
[4:35] >> I was born in 1937, which meant that I
[4:38] grew up in World War II.
[4:40] Growing up in the United I was not
[4:41] bombed, I was not orphaned, but every
[4:44] day of my life that I can remember was
[4:47] formed by the war. My first memory, the
[4:50] first data thing that I can remember,
[4:52] was the first photo that the US Army
[4:56] released of dead American soldiers. It
[4:58] was a famous cover of Life magazine, two
[5:01] American soldiers dead face down on Buna
[5:04] Gona beach in New Guinea. So I grew up
[5:07] in the shadow of Hitler. My family is
[5:09] from Eastern Europe, Jewish from Eastern
[5:11] Europe. The last of my family of course
[5:13] disappeared in the Holocaust. I married
[5:15] into a Polish family. My wife's parents
[5:18] came to the US in 1948. My wife's mother
[5:21] had survived Auschwitz. Various members
[5:23] of my wife wife's family did did not did
[5:25] not survive. And so my life and Marie's
[5:28] life have been formed under the under
[5:31] the the shadow of Hitler. On top of
[5:33] that, then there were leaders,
[5:36] non-political leaders, who
[5:39] >> [snorts]
[5:39] >> shaped my life most mostly for the good.
[5:42] There was a chairman of the Cambridge
[5:44] physiology department. I left a rubber
[5:47] hose pump water pump running all night
[5:49] to dry out radioactive isotope. The pump
[5:53] broke. It flooded my lab. It flooded the
[5:56] lab below my lab. That was not a good
[5:59] choice of lab to flood. It was the lab
[6:02] Lord Adrian, who was the father-in-law
[6:05] of my thesis advisor, and who was the
[6:07] master of my college. The next morning,
[6:11] the chair of the physiology department,
[6:14] Sir Brian Matthews, called me in. I
[6:16] thought I was going to be expelled.
[6:18] Instead, he said, "You know, that was
[6:20] sloppy. Don't don't do that again." And
[6:23] and that was the So, there was there was
[6:25] a leader who could have ended my career,
[6:27] but didn't. There are other leaders
[6:29] who've done decisively good things um
[6:33] for my for my career. There are a few
[6:35] people who failed to do anything, but
[6:37] they have not been leaders did me Those
[6:39] are the reasons for my personal interest
[6:42] in leaders, starting with the the
[6:44] question of Hitler. If there had not
[6:46] been Hitler, would my family in Eastern
[6:48] Europe and would Maurice's family still
[6:50] be alive?
[6:50] >> How close were we to there not being an
[6:54] adult Hitler?
[6:55] >> There were
[6:56] two two famous near endings of Hitler's
[7:00] life. My book begins, the first
[7:02] paragraph of my book
[7:04] is about a car accident in 1930, 3 years
[7:08] before Hitler became chancellor, when
[7:12] his limousine, driven by a chauffeur,
[7:15] was driving into an intersection in
[7:17] Germany.
[7:19] Hitler was in the drive in the passenger
[7:21] seat, the right right-hand seat, and a
[7:24] big truck came into the intersection at
[7:26] right angles with Hitler's sedan. Um
[7:29] Both Hitler's chauffeur and the truck
[7:32] driver either braked or accelerated
[7:34] ultimately,
[7:36] and the truck
[7:37] hit Hitler's car face-on,
[7:41] pushed it up against the curb, and was
[7:43] about to ride up over the car crushing
[7:45] Hitler. It came to a stop just before
[7:48] that. Hitler was was injured, but he was
[7:50] not killed. If he had died in 1930,
[7:54] would there have been World War II and
[7:55] would there have been a a Holocaust? And
[7:58] then then the the other famous almost
[8:01] was that
[8:02] in 1944,
[8:05] next to last year of the war, Count
[8:07] Claus von Stauffenberg, a German army
[8:10] officer who became disillusioned, um
[8:13] attempted to kill Hitler. He
[8:16] um he brought a
[8:18] um [snorts]
[8:19] a small suitcase
[8:22] with with a bomb
[8:24] into the
[8:26] con- conference room at
[8:28] Wolf's Lair. He He sat down next to
[8:31] Hitler,
[8:32] put the suitcase, which he had
[8:34] he had primed the bomb, he put the
[8:36] suitcase just under Hitler's foot,
[8:39] and
[8:42] the bomb went off, but just before the
[8:44] bomb went off, Hitler leaned forward.
[8:47] The result was that
[8:48] four other people in the room got
[8:50] killed, um Hitler's eardrum was blown
[8:53] out. Hitler was seriously wounded, but
[8:56] he was not killed. But if Hitler had not
[8:58] leaned for- That was 1944. Um would
[9:01] various members of my wife's family have
[9:03] survived? So
[9:05] So those are reasons for how how close
[9:08] it came to Hitler not becoming
[9:10] chancellor and how close it came to
[9:13] World War II ending in 1944, World War
[9:16] II in Europe ending in 1944.
[9:18] >> Was there anyone else that could have
[9:20] accomplished what Hitler accomplished?
[9:22] >> Historians argue about that. This
[9:25] illustrates the the difficulties in
[9:28] figuring out whether leaders make a
[9:30] difference. The traditional method of
[9:33] historians and biogra- [snorts] is to
[9:35] write a biography. There are many people
[9:37] who have written biographies of Hitler.
[9:39] Most biographers of Hitler conclude that
[9:42] Hitler was unique in several respects.
[9:46] He was the most charismatic orator,
[9:51] unfortunately, of the 20th century. He
[9:54] was anti-Semitic. There were plenty of
[9:56] anti-Semites in Europe, not just in
[9:58] Germany, but in Poland, but Hitler all
[10:01] those other anti-Semites
[10:04] killed Jews one by one. Hitler was the
[10:06] only one who got the idea of doing it on
[10:08] an industrial scale. Without Hitler,
[10:12] there probably would not
[10:14] would not have been a Holocaust. He was
[10:16] also
[10:18] brilliant at deceiving people, deceiving
[10:22] famously Neville Chamberlain at Munich,
[10:25] but he also deceived
[10:27] German politicians.
[10:29] He deceived German business leaders. He
[10:31] deceived German
[10:33] generals.
[10:34] He deceived his fellow Nazis. He was
[10:36] just brilliant at deceiving people. So,
[10:40] those are the arguments for thinking
[10:42] that he may he made a difference, that
[10:44] without World without Hitler, there
[10:46] might not have been a World War II, and
[10:48] there would not have been a been a
[10:49] Holocaust. Most historians tend to
[10:53] believe that
[10:56] leaders don't make a difference.
[10:59] But in the case of Hitler, most
[11:00] historians
[11:01] would argue that Hitler did make a
[11:03] difference. The
[11:05] famous British historian A.J.P. Taylor
[11:08] wrote a biography of Hitler Hitler
[11:11] using the same facts.
[11:12] And with the same facts, A.J.P. Taylor
[11:14] came to the conclusion that Hitler was a
[11:16] normal German politician pursuing the
[11:19] goals of other German politicians, which
[11:21] is true,
[11:22] but that
[11:23] there wouldn't have been any difference
[11:25] if Hitler had not been a leader. So,
[11:28] those are the arguments about but that
[11:30] illustrates the weakness of the
[11:32] traditional biographic method. One's
[11:34] limited by the facts,
[11:36] but
[11:38] different people come to different
[11:40] conclusions with the same facts. That's
[11:42] why my book uses a different method, the
[11:44] method of natural experiments.
[11:46] >> Who in your mind is the most unlikely
[11:48] leader that became a spectacularly
[11:50] successful leader either toward positive
[11:53] or destructive ends?
[11:56] >> There are many many candidates for that.
[11:58] One candidate The first Having been born
[12:01] in 1937, um I grew up under Roosevelt,
[12:04] but the first American president in in
[12:09] whom I became
[12:10] interested, cuz I was by then 8 years
[12:13] Harry Truman.
[12:14] The most unlikely
[12:16] significant American president. He was
[12:19] selected as Roosevelt's third or fourth
[12:21] vice vice president for trivial
[12:22] political reasons. He He was a senator
[12:25] from Missouri, undistinguished. He had
[12:28] He had become senator through dishonest
[12:31] shenanigans. He was so insignificant
[12:34] that Roosevelt never met with him. Once
[12:36] Truman became
[12:38] vice president, and when Roosevelt died,
[12:42] Truman was totally un- Truman didn't
[12:43] know about the atomic bomb. And yet, the
[12:46] first decision that he had to make was
[12:48] whether to drop the atomic bombs.
[12:50] At the time, Truman was widely despised.
[12:54] I remember my own view of Truman. He, I,
[12:57] and others looked down on Truman, but in
[12:59] retrospect, we realized that Truman was
[13:02] courageous. Um he didn't care whether
[13:05] people hated him. Um he made courageous
[13:09] decisions. The Berlin Airlift,
[13:13] the development of the the hydrogen
[13:15] bomb,
[13:16] the Korean War, which people hated him
[13:19] for, firing General MacArthur, which
[13:22] people hated him for. And so, when
[13:24] Truman stepped down, he was widely
[13:26] loathed. But in retrospect, um,
[13:29] gradually he's become appreciated as not
[13:32] equal to Roosevelt and Lincoln, but the
[13:35] second tier a courageous American
[13:37] president who took decisions and didn't
[13:40] care that he was going to be loathed
[13:43] because of the decision his decisions.
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[16:29] >> These days, at least in the tech sector
[16:31] and entrepreneurial space, there's been
[16:33] a lot of discussion about the disservice
[16:36] that introspection
[16:38] >> [clears throat]
[16:38] >> can do for people who are trying to
[16:40] build big things, be leaders, be
[16:42] entrepreneurs.
[16:44] We have to be careful about painting
[16:45] with too broad a brush, but in
[16:48] researching different leaders, both dark
[16:51] and light, is there a theme of powerful
[16:54] leaders
[16:56] being able to just step into the next
[16:57] decision without too much thought about
[16:59] the past or how they're going to be
[17:00] perceived? That's one form of in
[17:02] introspection. I realize there are
[17:04] others, but is there a correlation
[17:06] there?
[17:06] >> I would say no, and and this illustrates
[17:08] a broad broad point. People
[17:11] um regularly look for personal
[17:13] generalizations, personality
[17:15] generalizations about leaders.
[17:18] Perhaps the commonest generation the
[17:20] generalization is that leaders have to
[17:22] be charismatic.
[17:24] Nonsense. Some leaders are charismatic.
[17:27] Stalin
[17:29] Augusto Pinochet the dictator of Chile
[17:31] totally uncharismatic. There are about
[17:34] 37 ways to be an effective leader of
[17:36] which um charisma is is one and any
[17:40] question that you or anybody else would
[17:42] ask about how can we generalize about
[17:45] leaders personality? There are some
[17:47] generalizations about leaders but not
[17:49] personality generalizations because
[17:51] there are different ways to be a
[17:54] effective leader.
[17:55] >> I'm getting the sense that in your
[17:57] understanding of leaders and leadership
[18:00] based on what you just said that
[18:04] it's this weird confluence of
[18:08] circumstances who's not available to
[18:10] lead better perhaps charisma or lack of
[18:13] charisma a weird constellation of things
[18:16] that give rise to history
[18:19] and what we're experiencing now and so
[18:23] for me and perhaps I'm wrong about this
[18:25] that contrasts a bit with my
[18:27] understanding of you based on your prior
[18:29] books which is that you're trying to
[18:31] find thematic regularities. You're
[18:33] trying to put structure on things that
[18:37] at the face of them are very complex
[18:38] like how did we get here how did
[18:40] cultures evolve etc. and and on and on.
[18:42] So
[18:44] in this exploration of leadership how do
[18:47] you go from being being able to explain
[18:50] each circumstance
[18:52] to some taxonomy that allows you to be
[18:57] satisfied? And I mean I'll set up a
[19:00] parallel with something that we're going
[19:01] to look at later which is bird watching.
[19:04] I mean every bird is different but every
[19:06] bird belongs to a particular category
[19:08] and has particular features and in many
[19:10] ways I'm thinking about leaders and
[19:11] leadership the same way. What is
[19:13] satisfying to you? What level of
[19:16] understanding and consistency of ideas
[19:18] is satisfying?
[19:20] >> The broad
[19:21] generalizations
[19:22] um that I
[19:24] came to in writing writing about
[19:26] leaders, but I would say just just as
[19:28] background, um people
[19:30] often ask me, um Jared, your book about
[19:34] leaders now seems to be the opposite of
[19:37] Guns, Germs, and Steel.
[19:39] Jared, your book Guns, Germs, and Steel
[19:41] was about big patterns. There was
[19:43] nothing about individuals. Instead, it
[19:45] was about domestication and the shapes
[19:47] of continents. Does that mean that
[19:49] you've changed your mind and you now
[19:52] recognize the role of individuals? And
[19:54] my answer to that is is no. Guns, Germs,
[19:56] and Steel um is about
[19:59] patterns of history
[20:01] on the continents
[20:03] over the last 10,000 years. And over the
[20:06] last 10,000 years on whole continents, I
[20:08] can't think of any individual who's
[20:10] who's made a difference. There was no
[20:12] individual who was responsible for the
[20:15] Fertile Crescent
[20:17] jump-starting quote civilization.
[20:19] The Fertile Crescent jump-started
[20:21] civilization. Why? Because the Fertile
[20:23] Crescent was where the most productive
[20:24] wild plants, peas, wheat, barley, the
[20:27] most productive wild animal, cow, sheep,
[20:29] goat, pig, horse, lived. And so in Guns,
[20:32] Germs, and Steel, there's nothing
[20:33] nothing at all about individuals.
[20:35] Whereas my book about leadership is
[20:38] about what people have done during my
[20:40] lifetime, usually on local scales. And
[20:44] so it is about individuals, whereas
[20:47] Guns, Germs, and Steel was not at all
[20:48] about I haven't changed my mind. It's
[20:50] that I'm looking at completely different
[20:52] sorts of questions now in Prophets and
[20:55] Profits, Coaches, and Kings compared to
[20:57] Guns, Germs, and Steel.
[20:58] >> Is it a leap to say that um Prophets and
[21:02] Profits, Coaches, and Kings is a in some
[21:04] ways is a uh
[21:06] autobiography of where your your
[21:09] of the things that impacted
[21:11] your life along the way?
[21:13] >> In motivation, yes. In content, no.
[21:17] In motivation,
[21:19] yes, the role of Hitler in in my
[21:22] family's life and my wife's life, but
[21:25] the content of the book is
[21:28] all divorced from me. In the
[21:31] introduction, I think I do mention
[21:34] that
[21:36] Sir Brian Matthews saved, as a leader of
[21:39] the Cambridge physiology department,
[21:41] saved my career in physiology. But then,
[21:44] once I launch into politics and once I
[21:47] launch into the into the business world
[21:50] and once I launch into the sports world
[21:53] and and religion, um
[21:55] no, it's all it's all
[21:58] stuff
[21:59] I haven't contributed to to any of those
[22:02] four areas. Now, in the epilogue of the
[22:04] book, I I do ask, what are the areas
[22:07] um other areas that are waiting for
[22:11] exploration by the method of natural
[22:13] experiments? And I mean, science, which
[22:16] I am a scientist. Art, music, I am a
[22:18] musician.
[22:20] Military history, I'm very interested in
[22:22] military history.
[22:23] Social [snorts] unrest.
[22:25] I'm hoping that in the future,
[22:27] people will apply these questions of
[22:29] leadership to things that involve me
[22:32] personally, particularly music and and
[22:34] science, but that's for the future.
[22:36] >> You've mentioned this story about
[22:37] flooding the laboratory with I should
[22:40] point out, I heard you say radioactive
[22:42] isotope
[22:43] water. What is your takeaway from uh
[22:47] that particular professor's response and
[22:50] has it made you more forgiving of other
[22:52] people's mistakes?
[22:54] >> I've not been
[22:56] one to jump on other people for their
[22:58] mistakes. Well, I got I've made plenty
[23:00] of mistakes. I've had very close calls
[23:02] myself. I've done things that could have
[23:05] ended my career on the spot.
[23:08] Such as that that There were other
[23:09] things that could have ended my career
[23:11] on the spot. So, I'm not inclined to
[23:15] blame other people for their mistakes. I
[23:17] recall a biography of J. Robert
[23:20] Oppenheimer
[23:21] mentioned that that Oppenheimer he
[23:24] committed theft. And he could easily
[23:27] have been
[23:29] fired and his career might have been
[23:31] ended. But the theft was overlooked and
[23:34] so he went on to develop develop his
[23:37] career.
[23:38] >> It's interesting how when we are very
[23:40] low on a
[23:42] hierarchical
[23:43] uh ladder
[23:45] uh like in academia in its traditional
[23:48] days anyway that um people
[23:50] hold tremendous power obviously to to
[23:53] impact us and whether we move forward or
[23:56] not. But it's it's always reassuring
[23:58] when
[23:58] um something like the forgiveness of
[24:00] this uh professor if people can hear
[24:02] that because I think a lot of people
[24:03] associate powerful leadership with
[24:06] uh here I'm generalizing again with a
[24:09] uh sort of a a lack of tolerance for um
[24:12] imperfection, lack of tolerance for
[24:14] things that could threaten the the whole
[24:16] department in this case. So, it's a it's
[24:18] a very sweet story on the one hand, but
[24:21] I imagine it didn't happen a second
[24:23] time. There's also that, right?
[24:25] >> For 36 years
[24:27] I was professor physiology at UCLA
[24:30] medical school doing laboratory
[24:31] experiments. And so I had graduate
[24:34] students and postdocs. And quite a few
[24:37] of the graduate student postdocs
[24:39] screwed up.
[24:40] They made They made big big mistakes. I
[24:43] remember my my second graduate student
[24:46] my uh he he my department wanted to
[24:50] expel him because he didn't do well on
[24:53] an exam. I convinced my department to
[24:56] let him stay.
[24:58] And he turned out to be a outstanding
[25:01] researcher. Couple of others of my
[25:03] students had close calls. But again, I
[25:06] I'm reminded
[25:08] how close I came myself um to
[25:12] being having my career ended.
[25:15] And people forgave me, and my career
[25:18] developed very well.
[25:20] >> I would say so.
[25:21] >> Since I was forgiven, it behooves me to
[25:24] to forgive
[25:26] my students.
[25:27] >> I love it, and I'm sure many people
[25:29] appreciate that. Uh it's a very
[25:30] different picture of uh academia than I
[25:33] think most people get. So, thank thank
[25:35] you for that.
[25:36] Religious leaders,
[25:38] >> [snorts]
[25:38] >> who in your mind stood out as important
[25:41] enough to feature prominently in the
[25:43] book?
[25:44] >> In the book, I have
[25:46] two chapters on religious leaders. Um
[25:49] the first chapter looks at three
[25:52] religious leaders in the 19th century
[25:54] United States
[25:56] because we got lots of detailed
[25:58] information about them. Joseph Smith,
[26:01] the founder of the Mormon Mormon
[26:03] religion,
[26:04] Ann Lee, the founder of Shakers,
[26:08] Jim Jones, the founder of
[26:11] uh
[26:12] Jonestown. So, we have a lot of
[26:15] information about them.
[26:17] The second chapter
[26:18] on religion looks at
[26:21] Jesus.
[26:22] We have
[26:24] minimal information about Jesus.
[26:27] We have no contemporary information
[26:29] whatsoever about him. The first
[26:31] information that we have about him is
[26:34] the letters of St. Paul and the Gospel
[26:36] according to St. Mark,
[26:38] both of which follow his death by about
[26:41] 20 years. So, there's no contemporary
[26:44] information about him. With Jesus, did
[26:47] Jesus make a difference? Well, if you
[26:49] read the the New Testament,
[26:52] talks about names six other Messiahs.
[26:56] Jesus was not the only Messiah. There
[26:58] were there were lots of people then who
[27:01] said, "I'm the Messiah." And six of them
[27:04] are named in the in the New Testament.
[27:06] Couple of them were killed by the
[27:08] Romans. John the Baptist had his head
[27:10] cut off. Um Jesus was was killed. But
[27:14] this was the Western Roman Empire.
[27:17] The most powerful political entity of
[27:20] Western Eurasia.
[27:22] Just the right place to to found a major
[27:26] religion. Jesus, of course, could not
[27:28] foresee that 1,467
[27:33] years after his death Columbus would
[27:35] sail the ocean blue and launch the
[27:37] European conquest of the world spreading
[27:40] the European religion. But the European
[27:42] religion was Christianity. Why? Because
[27:45] Christianity was the religion of the
[27:47] Western Roman Empire, the most powerful
[27:48] entity at the time. So, if Jesus
[27:52] >> [snorts]
[27:52] >> had been with the same same properties
[27:54] in the Sudan, we wouldn't know about
[27:56] Jesus. If Jesus had been a
[28:01] religious leader in Western Europe
[28:04] 100 BC, we wouldn't know about him. He
[28:06] was the right place and and right time.
[28:09] >> He definitely has the highest H index of
[28:11] any uh religious leader.
[28:13] >> The right place in the right time.
[28:16] And
[28:17] I believe that Christianity is today the
[28:19] world religion with the largest number
[28:20] of adherents.
[28:22] >> I know you um try not to generalize, but
[28:24] is there anything specific about Jesus
[28:26] the person that we do know with almost
[28:29] certainty or with certainty that spoke
[28:31] to his effectiveness or was it you said
[28:33] right place wrong
[28:34] uh right time, but that seems uh
[28:38] necessary but not sufficient.
[28:39] >> Right. There There were other people at
[28:42] the right place in the right time. There
[28:43] were those six other prophets mentioned
[28:45] in the New Testament. And
[28:49] they were the Essenes of the Dead Sea
[28:51] Scrolls. Why was the world religion
[28:55] founded by
[28:57] Jesus and not by the leader of the
[29:00] Essenes? Well,
[29:02] there are a couple of things. One,
[29:04] Jesus's
[29:05] message and personal qualities. He had a
[29:08] universal message for all people. It was
[29:11] not just a message for
[29:13] the Essenes and was not just a message
[29:16] for
[29:17] for Jews. Yes, Jesus was Jewish,
[29:21] but his message was not addressed to
[29:23] just the Jews. It was a universal
[29:25] message.
[29:26] Of those
[29:28] religious leaders of the Roman Empire at
[29:30] that time, that was a big thing in his
[29:32] favor. And another thing in his in his
[29:35] favor
[29:36] was that a religion needs not only a
[29:39] charismatic founder, but it also needs
[29:41] an organizer. In [snorts] some cases,
[29:44] the organizer and charismatic founder
[29:46] are the same person. Muhammad was a
[29:48] great organizer and also charismatic.
[29:53] The Mahdi of the Sudan was a brilliant
[29:56] organizer and brilliant general.
[29:58] Also a brilliant religious leader. Jesus
[30:01] died too early.
[30:02] He was not the or- the organizer was St.
[30:04] Paul. St. Paul was a great organizer.
[30:07] Just as with the Mormon religion, Joseph
[30:10] Smith was the charismatic founder of the
[30:11] Mormon religion.
[30:13] Even in his lifetime, he had his
[30:15] weaknesses as an organizer. He was He
[30:17] was He was then then lynched. The
[30:19] organizer was Brigham Young, who was a
[30:21] great organizer. So, your your question,
[30:24] why Jesus? Um universal message.
[30:27] And he had the good fortune that he was
[30:29] then followed by a great organizer, St.
[30:31] Paul.
[30:32] And he was in the right place, the
[30:34] Western Roman Empire, at the perfect
[30:35] time.
[30:36] >> And Columbus
[30:37] obviously was able to propagate his
[30:40] ideas far, as you pointed out with the
[30:44] desire to still avoid generalizations
[30:47] what the picture I'm getting is that you
[30:48] need
[30:49] uh
[30:50] a leader
[30:51] you need an organizer. Sometimes the
[30:53] leader is the organizer, but often times
[30:56] it sounds like it there's someone else
[30:58] or other people who can help organize
[31:00] the message.
[31:01] We see this in science
[31:03] quite often especially in the biological
[31:05] sciences pairs
[31:07] of well
[31:09] your
[31:10] adviser Hodgkin Huxley won the Nobel
[31:12] Prize they're famous for describing the
[31:15] biophysics of the action potential.
[31:17] Hubel and Wiesel won the Nobel Prize.
[31:19] It's very common that there's this
[31:20] pairing and it and having known David
[31:23] Hubel and Torsten Wiesel a bit Torsten
[31:25] is still alive. There's often a
[31:27] personality
[31:29] uh
[31:30] complementarity there too. One tends to
[31:32] be a little bit more outspoken and one a
[31:34] little bit more you know Watson and
[31:36] Crick.
[31:37] I'm sure there's as many examples that
[31:39] don't fit
[31:40] but in thinking about leaders not just
[31:42] religious leaders can we
[31:45] make any kind of generalization about
[31:48] pairings
[31:49] two very
[31:51] complementary
[31:52] people that are specially effective in
[31:55] getting escape velocity on their on
[31:58] their leadership their message.
[32:00] >> I don't think so when we get in the case
[32:02] of religion
[32:03] it's not just pairings but it's off
[32:06] it's often triplets namely
[32:09] to launch a religion you
[32:12] you need
[32:13] charismatic founder
[32:14] you need an organizer but generally
[32:18] always when you found a new religion
[32:20] there is push back from existing
[32:22] religions and often that push back is is
[32:25] violent so that that often new religions
[32:29] have had to
[32:32] defend themselves have have had to have
[32:34] have
[32:35] generals um for example the Mahdi
[32:38] Muhammad
[32:40] was an outstanding general as well as
[32:43] organizer and charismatic. The Mahdi of
[32:46] the Sudan,
[32:47] um, who established an empire in East
[32:50] Africa towards the end of the 19th
[32:51] century.
[32:53] Great general. He led hundreds or
[32:55] thousands of Sudanese tribesmen with
[32:58] just
[32:59] sticks
[33:01] to
[33:02] wipe out
[33:04] a
[33:05] British-Egyptian army of 7,000 with
[33:08] machine guns. Great general, great
[33:11] organizer, charismatic. But in in other
[33:14] spheres, in science, there are
[33:17] scientists who are large-scale
[33:19] organizers. My thesis advisor, Alan
[33:21] Hodgkin. Alan Hodgkin didn't Great
[33:24] scientist. He did not organize 50 people
[33:27] into a lab lab group. Alan Hodgkin's his
[33:30] strategy was to have one PhD student at
[33:34] a time. Well, I was his PhD student. For
[33:37] 3 years, he did not have another PhD
[33:39] student. He did become Master of Trinity
[33:42] College, and he was an effective Master
[33:44] of Trinity College. But there are
[33:46] scientists who are also outstanding
[33:48] organizers. Gerald Edelman, who won a
[33:51] Nobel Prize for his work on figuring out
[33:54] how antibodies operated. Gerald Edelman
[33:57] had, I believe, something like
[33:59] 50 postdocs. And a friend of mine made a
[34:03] discovery that so-called Bence Jones
[34:06] proteins in in the kidney. A discovery
[34:09] that was crucial to figuring out how
[34:11] antibodies operate.
[34:13] But my friend operated alone. He did not
[34:17] have
[34:18] 50
[34:19] postdocs. And so, when my friend made
[34:23] the tactical mistake of giving a lecture
[34:25] about his discovery of Bence Jones
[34:27] proteins before he had published,
[34:30] Gerald Edelman was in the audience and
[34:33] and I'm told then immediately told his
[34:36] lab switch everything.
[34:38] And his 50 postdocs went in there
[34:41] and they figured out how
[34:42] antibodies operated. Gerald Edelman got
[34:45] the Nobel Prize and my friend did not
[34:46] get the Nobel Prize, but Gerald Edelman
[34:48] was a very effective organizer and
[34:51] fundraiser.
[34:52] >> And big personality.
[34:53] >> Yes. Yes. I'm I met him on two
[34:56] occasions.
[34:58] Yes, he was a big personality.
[35:00] >> He ventured into neuroscience after
[35:02] immunology
[35:04] and yeah, big ideas.
[35:06] Big lab, big ideas.
[35:09] So there just as many
[35:10] exceptions
[35:12] to the to the statements I'm making I'm
[35:14] I'm realizing as there are
[35:16] things that that meet it. I was
[35:18] surprised that you mentioned Jim Jones.
[35:20] And most people perhaps have heard of
[35:22] the Jonestown massacre.
[35:24] The top contour of that in my mind is
[35:27] bunch of people
[35:28] left the country to follow this
[35:31] cult leader
[35:32] and drank poison and it was mass
[35:35] suicide.
[35:36] When I [snorts] hear about cults and I
[35:37] hear about cult leaders, for some reason
[35:40] I default to thinking more about how
[35:42] impressionable
[35:44] the cult followers were rather than how
[35:46] persuasive the cult leader was. David
[35:49] Koresh and the Branch Davidians was you
[35:51] know, in my mind the
[35:53] burned down the
[35:54] the
[35:55] the structure killed everybody inside.
[35:57] And when I hear Koresh's lectures, they
[36:00] they have no impact in persuading me of
[36:02] anything except that he was nuts.
[36:04] When you think about an effective cult
[36:06] leader,
[36:08] I think most people perhaps default to
[36:11] that they're preying on the vulnerable,
[36:13] but
[36:14] is there a a world where those effective
[36:17] cult leaders could have done something
[36:18] else in the context of
[36:21] regular society and been effective
[36:23] leaders or is it there's something about
[36:24] the pairing, the dysfunctional pairing
[36:27] of the
[36:28] person prone to be a cult follower and
[36:30] the cult leader.
[36:31] >> Interesting question. A leader
[36:34] needs personal characteristics that will
[36:37] enable her or him to lead. They may be
[36:39] charisma, they may be
[36:41] being able to terrify people, they may
[36:43] be able to persuade people. On one hand
[36:46] there's the leader and on the other hand
[36:48] there are the the followers. Not
[36:50] everybody is a is a follower. There
[36:53] there are some some people who are prone
[36:56] prone to follow charismatic people and
[36:58] there are other people
[37:00] lots of people who are not going to
[37:02] follow even most charismatic people.
[37:04] Hitler.
[37:06] There were the Germans who followed
[37:08] Hitler
[37:10] were persuaded by Hitler
[37:11] but the Nazis never got a majority in an
[37:14] election. The majority of Germans um
[37:17] were not persuaded by by Hitler. Jim
[37:20] Jones of of Jonestown notorious for
[37:24] founding a colony in Guyana and
[37:28] the colony ended in the largest mass
[37:31] suicide in American history. 900 931
[37:35] people
[37:36] drank punch poisoned with with cyanide.
[37:39] But Jim Jones he can't be written off as
[37:42] a as a crazy. Uh he he led
[37:48] the desegregation of Indianapolis.
[37:52] He he attracted
[37:54] people by
[37:56] the noble ideals of
[38:01] the church he founded in Indianapolis.
[38:04] The people who followed him were not a
[38:06] random assortment of people.
[38:08] Um they were
[38:10] predominantly
[38:11] poor people, predominantly older people.
[38:15] A lot of them were were
[38:16] African-Americans.
[38:18] They tended not to be highly educated
[38:20] people.
[38:21] The People's Temple as it was called,
[38:23] required the charismatic leader.
[38:26] Um this is a really an interesting point
[38:28] that you raised, but it also required
[38:31] people who were disposed to be to be
[38:33] followers.
[38:34] >> I didn't realize he led the
[38:36] desegregation of Indianapolis.
[38:38] >> If he had died before he moved from
[38:41] Indianapolis to San Francisco, if he had
[38:44] died in his first couple of years in San
[38:46] Francisco, um he
[38:48] was appointed one of the housing
[38:50] commissioners for San Francisco. He
[38:53] attracted many idealistic people in San
[38:57] Francisco, but he was gradually getting
[39:00] more and more
[39:01] crazy. But this illustrates
[39:04] the the point that you make, which is an
[39:06] interesting point, that one has to
[39:08] inquire not just about leaders, but also
[39:10] about followers. Who is disposed to to
[39:13] follow?
[39:14] Uh in the case of the Nazis, yes, it was
[39:17] clear that there were Germans who were
[39:19] disposed to follow to follow Hitler. In
[39:22] the case of Winston Churchill or
[39:25] Franklin Delano Roosevelt,
[39:27] um
[39:27] my parents voted three times for
[39:30] Roosevelt and once they voted against
[39:32] Rose- my parents and other Roosevelt
[39:34] were not crazy sick sick people. And
[39:37] Winston Churchill, the people who who
[39:39] voted for Winston Churchill were not
[39:41] were not crazy crazy sick sick people.
[39:44] In that case,
[39:46] one cannot look to the pathology or the
[39:48] strange qualities of their their
[39:51] followers as one can in the case of Jim
[39:52] Jones.
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[41:07] I realize it's possible to divide
[41:09] leaders or people or animals or anything
[41:11] into different categories depending on
[41:13] where one decides to
[41:15] slice the line, but
[41:17] >> [snorts]
[41:17] >> can anything informative be said about
[41:21] powerful leaders who
[41:24] declare that they are not at the top of
[41:26] the hierarchy, that they obey God of a
[41:29] or a particular God, versus that they
[41:31] are at the at the top of the pyramid.
[41:34] We'll leave Jesus out of this because
[41:36] that's an obvious one. But, in the case
[41:38] of like a Jim Jones, you said he had a
[41:41] church. Um did he still talk about the
[41:43] existence of God? Did he try to leverage
[41:46] God um to make people convinced that he
[41:49] was humble to God, or is or was he
[41:53] saying that he was really the apex of of
[41:56] power and understanding?
[41:59] And I suppose we could apply this to
[42:00] just pretty much anyone we've discussed
[42:02] or anyone else. Is it is it
[42:04] an informative dividing line?
[42:05] >> Jim Jones certainly did not did not know
[42:08] a God, and did not did not claim to be
[42:11] be superior to God is another are there
[42:15] traits shared by leaders and I mentioned
[42:18] that
[42:19] that
[42:20] there are different ways to be an
[42:21] effective leader. Charisma to do to do
[42:24] to do
[42:25] um in I think it was the third chapter
[42:28] of my book. I have a table in which I
[42:32] pulled together
[42:35] 22 outstanding political leaders
[42:38] um
[42:39] of the period from World War II onwards
[42:42] and
[42:44] I asked myself
[42:45] what generalizations can we reach about
[42:48] the these 22 leaders?
[42:52] The 22 the obvious obvious candidate.
[42:54] You can argue about them but I could
[42:56] Stalin and Anwar Sadat Mussolini
[43:01] Hitler etc. etc. I asked myself are
[43:04] there any qualities shared by all these
[43:07] leaders? And the surprise for me was
[43:09] that
[43:10] of these 22 leaders there were only two
[43:14] who stepped down voluntarily. Nelson
[43:17] Mandela the founding post-apartheid
[43:19] leader of of South Africa. He was I
[43:22] think in his 80s
[43:23] and he retired voluntarily as Prime
[43:26] Minister. Um then Lee Kuan Yew the
[43:30] founder of independent Singapore
[43:33] um served as Prime Minister might be as
[43:36] long as 30 might be as long as 40 years
[43:39] but he stepped down voluntarily.
[43:41] But of the other 20 those were the only
[43:43] two out of 22 who stepped down
[43:45] voluntarily. All other major leaders
[43:49] were either assassinated Anwar Sadat
[43:53] or committed suicide Hitler
[43:55] or they were voted out of office
[43:58] Winston Churchill or
[44:01] they were thrown out by a coup
[44:05] which means that
[44:07] in in politics once
[44:09] once you've become a powerful leader
[44:12] and
[44:14] you've come to the conclusion that you
[44:16] are
[44:18] an effective powerful leader
[44:20] you are very unlikely to step down
[44:24] voluntarily. Only two out of 22 did it.
[44:27] So, that's a generalization that I had
[44:29] not anticipated.
[44:30] >> Yeah, I suppose it's a lifestyle hit,
[44:32] too.
[44:33] Uh nobody wants to go backwards in terms
[44:35] of uh
[44:36] their comforts.
[44:38] Uh but I am surprised that some people
[44:39] have the vigor to continue to um occupy
[44:42] these very high-demand
[44:44] spots despite aging and
[44:48] fatiguing. I mean, you clearly don't
[44:50] slow, but the uh uh you know, but uh
[44:53] we'll talk about the fact that you're
[44:55] teaching yourself Italian now. Is that
[44:57] right?
[44:57] >> Yes.
[44:57] >> Are you teaching yourself a new
[44:58] language? Did I hear that correctly?
[45:00] >> I learned Italian. Italian was my the
[45:02] last of my 13 languages. I learned
[45:04] Italian
[45:05] >> Just 13?
[45:06] >> When when I was 61 years old. I read
[45:08] Italian every day. All my leisure
[45:10] reading is in Italian. I don't do
[45:11] leisure reading in English. I read
[45:13] Italian every day and once a week I have
[45:16] a 2-hour Italian conversation with my
[45:19] Italian professor who's a professor at
[45:21] USC.
[45:22] >> What inspired you to learn 13 languages?
[45:24] Is it fun for you or do you and or do
[45:27] you enjoy the challenge as part of the
[45:30] enticement of learning another language?
[45:32] >> My mother was a talented linguist. I
[45:35] just love learning languages. In my
[45:37] school required
[45:40] us to to study Latin for five five
[45:43] years. I loved it. Um
[45:45] we had the alternative of studying
[45:47] electives, either Greek or biology. I
[45:50] figured I'm going to be doing biology
[45:51] for the rest of my life. I will now take
[45:53] So, I I I spent 3 years learning Greek.
[45:56] I can still recite the beginning of the
[45:58] main and eight of the play at all. I can
[46:00] learn
[46:02] then um
[46:04] in college um
[46:06] I learned German just before my mother
[46:08] helped me with that just before entering
[46:10] college. In college, this was the time
[46:13] of Sputnik, so I learned Russian. I
[46:16] learned Spanish, and then my first
[46:19] summer after college, I spent the summer
[46:22] in Finland. The Finnish language is a
[46:24] non-Indo-European, it's a really
[46:26] difficult language. When I went to
[46:28] Finland, I did not have a Finnish
[46:29] grammar, but I was hitchhiking around in
[46:32] Finland
[46:33] um and at that time in Finland, summer
[46:35] of 1959,
[46:37] very few Finns spoke English.
[46:39] In order to hitchhike, I had to
[46:42] start learning Finnish. And I ended up
[46:45] in a national park in northern Finland
[46:48] um where I I hiked into a hut that was
[46:51] being looked after by four Finnish
[46:53] soldiers. The four Finnish soldiers
[46:55] didn't speak any language except
[46:57] Finnish.
[46:59] And I'm with them for several days. They
[47:01] teach me Finnish
[47:03] by demonstrating things um
[47:05] um
[47:06] cup.
[47:06] They picked up a cup. The word for
[47:09] Finnish word for cup was kuppi. And then
[47:11] Finnish, instead of having prepositions,
[47:13] it has postpositions,
[47:15] cases. So when you want to say the cup
[47:18] is on the table, kuppi pöydällä.
[47:21] When you want to say I'm putting the cup
[47:23] onto the table, pöydälle.
[47:25] When you take the cup off the pöydältä.
[47:28] So these four Finnish soldiers, they
[47:30] demonstrated for me by putting on to and
[47:32] off of them. I just loved it. And I
[47:35] seriously considered
[47:36] dropping out of science um
[47:39] I met my after I'd been to Finland, I
[47:41] met my my parents in Paris.
[47:45] They came to Europe, so I saw them for
[47:46] the first time in a year, and I was
[47:51] seriously considering dropping out of
[47:53] science and becoming a simultaneous
[47:55] translator. I was going to go to
[47:57] Switzerland to become a translator.
[47:59] Fortunately my my father he was he was
[48:01] gently said
[48:02] maybe it's a maybe it's a bit early to
[48:05] draw I know you science is frustrating
[48:07] for you now but
[48:08] you've been
[48:09] doing it for only a year. Why don't you
[48:11] give yourself another 6 months and after
[48:13] 6 months if the experiments aren't going
[48:15] well you can be a translator.
[48:17] But I I loved learning finish and then
[48:19] when I went to New Guinea
[48:21] New Guinea has a thousand languages. The
[48:23] first New Guinea people that I work with
[48:25] were the Fore tribe famous for kuru
[48:29] laughing sickness first prion disease.
[48:32] And at that time
[48:36] there was a New Guinea trade language is
[48:38] New Guinea trade language called Tok
[48:39] Pisin. So I
[48:41] was able to communicate with Tok Pisin
[48:43] but I just loved learning Fore. from
[48:47] from
[48:48] from a couple of Fores and
[48:50] I I remember
[48:52] asking my Fore informant
[48:55] I was trying to figure out the word for
[48:57] we.
[48:58] I'd already learned the word for I nage.
[49:02] So I asked my my Fore informant in Tok
[49:05] Pisin
[49:06] um
[49:08] I nage
[49:10] so
[49:11] we all the same one of them mepela
[49:13] and he said
[49:14] then he gave me word for for we.
[49:17] And then I was like oh we and he said no
[49:21] nage
[49:23] kasike
[49:25] It turns out that Fore has a
[49:28] dual English is singular and plural I
[49:31] and we.
[49:32] But
[49:34] among European languages Slovenian and
[49:37] ancient Greek have a dual
[49:39] namely separate pronouns for two of us
[49:41] and three of us. So for example um if
[49:45] if I'm I'm talking the two of us we do
[49:49] this. But if there were third person
[49:51] here it would be a different pronoun and
[49:53] four it be classic
[49:55] One of the ways I just loved learning
[49:57] language. I've always loved languages.
[49:59] That's
[49:59] >> It seems you love the puzzle of it. You
[50:01] love the application of it given that
[50:02] once you learn Italian, you still um
[50:05] have these conversations in Italian for
[50:07] a couple hours a week. Once again, I'm
[50:09] struck by how
[50:11] despite the tremendous variation in the
[50:14] different languages for instance, um
[50:17] that
[50:18] there's something about I'm not trying
[50:19] to play psychologist here, but there's
[50:21] something about your mind where you it
[50:23] seems you're very comfortable with
[50:25] immense amount of informational
[50:27] diversity within a category like
[50:29] language or leaders.
[50:32] Most people come in and they try and
[50:33] simplify to clarify, but you have this
[50:37] uh it seems your mind goes to let's find
[50:39] the widest range of variation possible
[50:42] and from that we're going to extract
[50:44] some deeper understanding. It's
[50:47] This may occur to you, but it's a highly
[50:48] unusual way of doing things. I mean in
[50:50] biology we have lumpers and splitters as
[50:52] we say.
[50:53] I teach neuroanatomy. So, you can lump
[50:54] or you can split. You can say brain or
[50:56] we can start dividing and you can divide
[50:57] everything right down to the
[50:58] subdivisions of the mitochondria if you
[51:01] want, right? So, you have to pick your
[51:03] your level of analysis.
[51:05] But,
[51:06] we tend to put frameworks nomenclatures
[51:08] and try and name genes in ways that we
[51:11] can think about other genes that are
[51:12] similar.
[51:13] Your mind works in a very different way
[51:16] and what I'd like to know is has it
[51:17] always
[51:18] been that way? Have you looked at the
[51:19] taxonomy of of stuff in the world and
[51:22] said, "That's crazy. Why do they
[51:24] organize it that way? Maybe we should
[51:25] look at it uh through
[51:27] the the most detailed lens and from that
[51:30] extract clarity."
[51:32] >> I've been that way only since age three.
[51:34] My mother who was a teacher and loved
[51:36] teaching, Mom taught me to read when I
[51:38] was 3 years old. And so so, I began
[51:41] keeping a notebook.
[51:43] I still got my 3-year-old notebook in my
[51:45] notebook. I made lists. I made lists of
[51:48] the names of rivers, the names of
[51:50] animals, the names of animals of the
[51:53] Rocky Mountains, the names of birds of
[51:57] Europe. I was a lister. This is
[51:59] embarrassing, but I listed the numbers
[52:01] of
[52:02] street cars on the Boston street car
[52:05] system.
[52:06] I don't know the number
[52:08] I love making lists.
[52:10] And I've got a lot of mileage in in
[52:13] biology out of making lists. After my
[52:16] PhD,
[52:18] I
[52:19] I was a membrane biologist. And among my
[52:22] contributions to membrane biology, I did
[52:24] the largest study ever carried out of
[52:26] the permeability of biological membranes
[52:28] to uncharged molecules,
[52:30] non-electrolytes. I and and my my first
[52:33] post-doctoral student, we measured the
[52:36] permeability of
[52:38] rabbit gallbladder to 210 non-elect- 210
[52:42] non-electrolytes.
[52:43] They're all organic chemicals. And
[52:45] there's lots of detail there. There were
[52:47] branched non-electrolytes, there were
[52:49] non-branched non-electrolytes, and there
[52:51] were ones with oxygen groups, and there
[52:54] were ones with
[52:56] with sulfur groups. So, there's lots of
[52:59] detail.
[53:00] I loved the project with these 200
[53:02] non-electrolytes. Then when I went to
[53:03] New Guinea to start to study birds,
[53:07] I've been studying New Guinea birds
[53:09] since since 1964.
[53:11] >> [snorts]
[53:11] >> New Guinea has about 600
[53:15] bird species. I've encountered
[53:18] and gotten into to know most of them.
[53:21] When I'm falling asleep at night,
[53:24] often I'll recite to myself lists of New
[53:27] Guinea birds. Sometimes I'll recite them
[53:29] by their foreign names, the Mambisaina,
[53:31] the Passerkekeya, the Ken Mamitoto, the
[53:33] Zwannotava. Sometimes I'll recite them
[53:35] by their by their Latin names,
[53:38] Sericornis papuensis, Sericornis
[53:40] perspicillatus, Sericornis nouhuysi. I
[53:43] just love making this.
[53:45] But one one of my teachers, one of my
[53:47] influ- influential teach- Ernst Mayr,
[53:50] the great evolutionary biologist, Ernst
[53:52] Mayr loved making lists. And he and I
[53:54] spent 30 years preparing a book together
[53:57] on the birds of northern Melanesia, the
[54:00] islands east of New Guinea. Ernst and I
[54:02] were very compatible. Both of us loved
[54:04] making lists. Whenever a question would
[54:06] come up, Ernst Ernst would say, "Let's
[54:08] make a list." And he would make a list
[54:10] and I would make a list. And then we
[54:11] would go over that list, list of all the
[54:13] mountain birds of of
[54:17] northern Melanesia. What generalizations
[54:19] are there about the mountain bird? Are
[54:21] there
[54:22] There's a lot of scientific mileage that
[54:24] I've gotten from making lists, which
[54:26] I've done ever since I was 3 years old.
[54:28] >> It's the exact opposite
[54:31] way that Richard Feynman talked about
[54:34] how to look out at the world. He
[54:36] actually used the very example of if you
[54:39] see a bird in the woods and somebody
[54:40] says, "That's like a whatever whatever
[54:42] thrush." He said, "Knowing the name
[54:44] doesn't help you understand it." But
[54:47] I will say, based on
[54:50] spending a lot of time thinking about
[54:52] the names of and the connectivity of
[54:53] different brain structures, often
[54:55] there's a a way of naming things in a
[54:57] field that actually tells you a lot
[54:59] about the functionality. Like in
[55:01] neuroscience, for instance, we the first
[55:03] name in retinogeniculate, it tells you
[55:05] what the origin structure and and the
[55:07] recipient structure are. So like the
[55:08] names actually matter. They tell you a
[55:11] lot more than just this is different
[55:13] than that. So as you made these lists
[55:16] and as you recite these lists when
[55:18] you're falling asleep, are you also
[55:21] able to call to mind the functional
[55:23] distinctions between these? Is that
[55:25] simply the way that you batch
[55:26] information?
[55:27] Or is it that the lists and the names
[55:29] are are have their own unique value
[55:31] that's independent from that?
[55:33] >> The names are
[55:36] the the anchor for a lot of information
[55:39] when I reside at night. Sericornis
[55:41] noyesi. Sericornis noyesi
[55:44] the large large large scrub wren. What
[55:48] about it? Well, it's the larger of two
[55:51] birds in an altitudinal sequence.
[55:53] It's the larger of two coexisting
[55:55] species which are very similar, so
[55:58] similar that this and the possum and the
[56:00] shami and the mama saying I couldn't
[56:02] tell them apart until the New Guineans
[56:04] explained to me the differences in in
[56:06] their behavior.
[56:08] So, there's a lot of information that's
[56:09] associated with the name and in addition
[56:11] the name itself has a Sericornis.
[56:14] Sericornis
[56:15] means that that bird belongs to the
[56:16] genus Sericornis and in the genus
[56:19] Sericornis is also
[56:21] Sericornis
[56:23] virgatus
[56:25] which is the low elevation equivalent of
[56:27] Sericornis noyesi
[56:29] but there's also Sericornis
[56:31] perspicillatus which is the small bodied
[56:34] um
[56:35] scrub wren that shares the same
[56:37] altitudinal range as noyesi. So, there's
[56:39] information that goes along with the
[56:41] name.
[56:42] >> I mean in the world of science you and I
[56:43] both know there are people who pick one
[56:45] thing
[56:46] and they just drill there. Sometimes for
[56:48] an entire career for five or 10 years at
[56:51] a time. Then there are people that try
[56:52] and throw their arms around enormous
[56:54] batches of information. Clearly you're
[56:55] in the latter category and so once again
[56:58] I'll ask is was this
[57:00] always your tendency? You wanted to know
[57:02] all the information?
[57:03] >> Basically yes. I mean I've always been
[57:05] interested in in lots of things. I was
[57:08] fortunate to go to a secondary school
[57:10] that gave me options to to study lots of
[57:13] things. My secondary school, although I
[57:15] expected to go into science, my
[57:17] secondary school had great history
[57:19] teacher, better better than all the
[57:21] history teachers I had had at Harvard
[57:23] College.
[57:24] Wonderful Latin Latin Greek teacher.
[57:27] Then once I got my PhD in physiology in
[57:31] Cambridge, England and returned to the
[57:33] United States
[57:35] having gotten my PhD in salt and water
[57:37] transport by the gallbladder. In
[57:40] retrospect, I didn't know what I was
[57:41] doing at the time, but in retrospect, I
[57:43] realized that I was now understanding
[57:46] with horror that I was expected to
[57:48] devote myself to the gallbladder for the
[57:49] rest of my life. But that just went
[57:51] against everything that I had done from
[57:53] age three onwards. And so
[57:56] I shopped around for another career. Um
[57:59] I seriously considered making another
[58:02] career in pre-Columbian ceramics.
[58:04] I seriously considered becoming
[58:07] a conductor of an orchestra.
[58:10] I didn't have the insights into
[58:12] pre-Columbian ceramics. Um
[58:15] To be a conductor, you have to be able
[58:17] to ignore time lags, and I couldn't
[58:19] ignore time lags. But um I I had been a
[58:23] become a bird watcher at age seven. And
[58:27] when I came back to Boston
[58:29] after my getting my PhD, in my
[58:34] first summer, I and a college classmate,
[58:36] the college classmate who was a great
[58:37] bird watcher,
[58:39] we spent the summer in Peru. What do you
[58:41] do in Peru? We climb mountains. We watch
[58:43] birds. The next next summer
[58:47] we went together to New Guinea. Well, I
[58:49] New Guinea's the wildest place in the
[58:51] world. Um but New Guinea also has the
[58:53] most wonderful birds. And so I developed
[58:55] a second career
[58:57] in birds.
[58:59] And then [clears throat]
[59:00] I developed a third career in history
[59:02] and geography. So I've had three
[59:04] careers. My
[59:06] my career in laboratory physiology
[59:09] eventually closed down in the year 2002.
[59:12] Why? When my When our twin sons, my wife
[59:15] and I have twin sons, they were born in
[59:17] 1987. When our twin sons were born, I
[59:20] realized the future of Max and Joshua is
[59:22] not going to depend upon gallbladders.
[59:24] It's going to depend upon history and
[59:26] geog- geography. And so so gradually I
[59:29] began spending more of my time in
[59:30] history geography.
[59:32] I was less interested in gallbladders.
[59:35] Finally, with great difficulty, um I got
[59:37] UCLA to transfer me from being professor
[59:40] of gallbladder physiology in the medical
[59:42] school to being professor of geography
[59:45] in the college. I've still kept up the
[59:47] the two careers in history and geography
[59:50] at the same time as as I was writing
[59:53] writing my book on on leaders. At the
[59:55] same time, I've also been writing papers
[59:57] on my work on New Guinea birds. I think
[1:00:00] a week ago Friday, I completed a long
[1:00:03] paper on the birds of the Wandammen
[1:00:05] Mountains of Indonesian New Guinea.
[1:00:09] Next year I I want to do a paper on the
[1:00:11] birds of the Bewani Mountains of
[1:00:13] Indonesian New Guinea. And because I'm
[1:00:15] 89 years old, I have to figure what do I
[1:00:18] My remaining time is finite. What am I
[1:00:20] going to do with my remaining time?
[1:00:22] One of the things that I want to do with
[1:00:24] my remaining time is synthesize
[1:00:25] synthesize my work on New Guinea birds
[1:00:27] by looking at bird distribution on the
[1:00:30] 10 isolated mountain ranges of New
[1:00:32] Guinea.
[1:00:33] What generalizations can I recognize
[1:00:35] about the birds that are good colonists?
[1:00:38] So, that's what [snorts] I want to do
[1:00:39] for
[1:00:40] this the remaining 10 years of my life.
[1:00:43] >> I have to say that despite having
[1:00:44] colleagues who have a lot of interests,
[1:00:46] uh it's very rare to encounter somebody
[1:00:48] who's been successful in several
[1:00:50] different domains of serious,
[1:00:52] you know, scientific exploration. Much
[1:00:55] less writing books about them as well.
[1:00:56] And did you at some point give yourself
[1:00:58] permission to move fields? It's not
[1:01:01] common, as we know, in in science for
[1:01:03] people to do that. And if people do it,
[1:01:04] they tend to do it um somewhat
[1:01:06] cryptically and then or and gradually.
[1:01:09] And maybe this is also, not to pry into
[1:01:11] your personal life, but uh it's one
[1:01:13] thing to decide, "Uh you know, I'm
[1:01:16] my twins are arriving and you know,
[1:01:17] maybe I'll switch fields." But there's a
[1:01:19] spouse there who's probably thinking,
[1:01:21] "Uh uh
[1:01:22] do you have tenure? How are we going to
[1:01:23] pay the bills?
[1:01:25] So I imagine there was likely support or
[1:01:28] maybe you were just very defiant and you
[1:01:30] just follow your curiosity.
[1:01:31] >> There were the the
[1:01:33] the career issues and there were the
[1:01:36] issues of interest. The issues of
[1:01:38] interest were that ever since I was 3
[1:01:40] years old I've been interested in lots
[1:01:42] of stuff and I realized in retrospect
[1:01:45] that that
[1:01:46] among among among my life crises
[1:01:50] one of my life crises was after I got my
[1:01:53] PhD realizing with horror that I was
[1:01:56] expected to one thing for the rest of my
[1:01:58] life but that was not me.
[1:02:00] And it took some effort to carve out a
[1:02:03] second career in birds. I had a post
[1:02:05] doctoral fellowship. Most post doctoral
[1:02:08] fellowships bind you to do one thing. I
[1:02:11] was in the biophysics lab of the Harvard
[1:02:13] Medical School but I I was fortunate
[1:02:15] that my post doctoral fellowship was
[1:02:19] with the Harvard Society called the
[1:02:20] Society of Fellows. I was a junior
[1:02:22] fellow at Harvard. And as a junior
[1:02:24] fellow I had freedom. I could I could
[1:02:26] tell the boss of my biophysics
[1:02:29] laboratory
[1:02:30] I'm
[1:02:31] going to New Guinea for 3 months this
[1:02:34] summer to study New Guinea birds. I
[1:02:37] didn't ask his permission. I just said
[1:02:38] I'm doing it. Now he could have fired me
[1:02:40] and he could have said, well if you want
[1:02:42] to do that get out of biophysics lab but
[1:02:44] I was doing good work in biophysics and
[1:02:46] so he was he was willing to tolerate my
[1:02:50] um
[1:02:51] going off to New Guinea for three for
[1:02:53] three months. Then when I moved to UCLA
[1:02:56] the crucial piece of my negotiation with
[1:03:00] moving to UCLA where I was off offered a
[1:03:03] professorship
[1:03:05] associate professorship in the
[1:03:08] the physiology department. Um [snorts]
[1:03:10] the dean of UCLA was the longest serving
[1:03:13] medical school dean in the United
[1:03:14] Sherman Mellinkoff wonderful person. He
[1:03:16] was offering me a job in the physio. I
[1:03:19] told him, "Yes, but I'm interested in
[1:03:22] New Guinea birds, and you got to
[1:03:24] understand that I intend to um the last
[1:03:27] several years, I've spent three three
[1:03:29] months every summer working on New
[1:03:31] Guinea birds, and I want to continue my
[1:03:33] work on New Guinea birds, and
[1:03:36] if I accept your
[1:03:38] position, will you tolerate my
[1:03:40] continuing to work on New Guinea birds?"
[1:03:42] Most medical school deans would have
[1:03:44] said, "Get the hell out of here." Sure
[1:03:46] Melnick off said, "Jared,
[1:03:50] UCLA Medical School is interested in New
[1:03:51] Guinea birds. I'm going to give you
[1:03:53] $5,000 every year
[1:03:55] to spend studying New Guinea birds." And
[1:03:58] so so he tolerated it and made it
[1:04:00] possible for me. I'm then fortunate that
[1:04:03] I had a dean who permitted
[1:04:05] As for As for my my wife, Marie Marie
[1:04:09] had no problems what whatsoever with it.
[1:04:11] When I met Marie, I was already
[1:04:14] working in New Guinea. In fact,
[1:04:16] the development of our relationship a
[1:04:18] crucial
[1:04:19] crucial issue in our relationship was
[1:04:21] that Jared was going off to New Guinea
[1:04:24] for every three months, and Marie knew
[1:04:26] what happened in New Guinea. I got
[1:04:27] nearly killed in New Guinea repeatedly,
[1:04:29] and and Marie had to be willing to to
[1:04:31] tolerate that. Um by the time that our
[1:04:34] our kids were born, I had a very secure
[1:04:36] position in medical school. I was going
[1:04:38] to New Guinea. When our kids were born,
[1:04:40] it was not that Marie told me, "Jared,
[1:04:42] don't go there for three months." It was
[1:04:43] that that that I realized Jared, you're
[1:04:45] not going to go there for three months
[1:04:46] anymore. And so when the kids were born,
[1:04:48] I reduced my time in New Guinea to one
[1:04:50] month at a time.
[1:04:52] And my last New Guinea trip was 2019.
[1:04:55] >> Yeah, it raises a very interesting um
[1:04:59] feature of adventurous living, much less
[1:05:03] researching and and living, you know, uh
[1:05:06] immersed in a in a different culture, a
[1:05:09] different ecosystem, which is that can
[1:05:12] be hard on the body to go places that
[1:05:15] you're not familiar with, eating food
[1:05:17] you're not familiar with. Most people
[1:05:18] think, "Oh, what are you talking about?
[1:05:19] You know, you can get a cheeseburger
[1:05:21] from McDonald's anywhere in the world
[1:05:22] now." And perhaps that's true, but um
[1:05:25] have you always um been willing to put
[1:05:29] your physical comfort
[1:05:31] uh on the line in order to learn? It's I
[1:05:33] mean, learning languages is hard. Um
[1:05:35] putting yourself into a a jungle
[1:05:37] environment where there's
[1:05:40] um all sorts of diseases, where there's
[1:05:41] uh political and social unrest. Like,
[1:05:43] there are a lot of variables when you
[1:05:45] get out there. Um and so then you become
[1:05:47] an intellectual explorer, but truly in
[1:05:49] the wild. Um was that something that was
[1:05:52] fun, a necessary evil? Uh where where is
[1:05:54] that landed with you?
[1:05:56] >> To work in New Guinea, it's a it's an
[1:05:57] it's a necessary evil. Um it's not until
[1:06:01] I went to New Guinea, um I uh when I was
[1:06:04] in Peru, the the previ- the year before
[1:06:07] I went to New Guinea, my friend and I
[1:06:08] went to Peru,
[1:06:10] spent a summer in Peru.
[1:06:12] We did mountain climbing. Um we did a
[1:06:15] first ascent of a 17,000-ft peak. Being
[1:06:18] at high altitudes,
[1:06:20] going straight up from sea level to
[1:06:22] 10,000 ft, and then 3 days later going
[1:06:24] to 6- 16, it is miserable. So,
[1:06:28] you yes, I I experienced
[1:06:31] physical misery in Peru. In New Guinea,
[1:06:34] to do anything in New Guinea,
[1:06:37] there's lots of physical physical memory
[1:06:40] misery. Um the food is sweet potatoes
[1:06:43] and rice, three meals a day.
[1:06:46] Being in the jungle, I'm getting bitten
[1:06:48] by
[1:06:49] scrub mites.
[1:06:51] My first year in New Guinea, I ended up
[1:06:53] with dysentery,
[1:06:55] which the doctors at Harvard couldn't
[1:06:57] cure. It remained with me for a year. My
[1:07:00] third year in New Guinea ended up with
[1:07:02] malaria.
[1:07:03] Climbing mountains in in New Guinea.
[1:07:06] Being in New Guinea is is physically
[1:07:08] miserable most of most of the time.
[1:07:10] Occasionally,
[1:07:11] like like maybe once in 3 months,
[1:07:15] I can
[1:07:16] sit down
[1:07:18] at a campsite and look out and and and
[1:07:21] at another and say, "My god, that's
[1:07:23] beautiful."
[1:07:24] But
[1:07:24] the rest of the time,
[1:07:26] I'm physically miserable and I'm having
[1:07:29] to deal with New Guineans
[1:07:31] >> [snorts]
[1:07:31] >> who have their own ideas about what to
[1:07:33] do in life. Being in New Guinea is is
[1:07:35] it's uncomfortable, but it's
[1:07:37] fascinating. The fascination of the
[1:07:38] birds, of figuring out
[1:07:41] what's the difference between the
[1:07:42] Mobisain and the Pasgikihabi.
[1:07:45] >> Let's talk about birds. Um the only
[1:07:47] other two birders I know from science
[1:07:50] are Jim Watson,
[1:07:52] >> Mhm.
[1:07:53] >> um was started off as a
[1:07:55] birder ornithologist of some sort
[1:07:57] anyway, decided to solve the
[1:07:59] co-solve the structure of DNA, so he
[1:08:03] went a different way.
[1:08:04] Um
[1:08:05] and then
[1:08:06] the late also late Murray Gell-Mann, who
[1:08:08] discovered the quark. As a I think a two
[1:08:11] Nobel
[1:08:12] winner, maybe one or anyway, smart guy
[1:08:15] um who was obsessed with birds and bird
[1:08:17] taxonomy and bird watching. It's
[1:08:19] interesting that
[1:08:21] all three of you
[1:08:23] have it seems a an a kind of obsession
[1:08:26] with going after these big
[1:08:28] >> Mhm.
[1:08:29] >> questions. Like entire societies,
[1:08:31] leadership, um the structure of DNA,
[1:08:34] Gell-Mann you know, you know, uh
[1:08:36] elementary particles and and and and all
[1:08:38] the rest.
[1:08:40] But
[1:08:41] birds, of which I know some, certainly
[1:08:43] not as much as you, there's this
[1:08:45] tremendic tremendous diversity. And um
[1:08:49] unless one is really into birding,
[1:08:51] it's easy from the outside to say, like,
[1:08:54] "Yeah, okay, so you've got the
[1:08:55] black-capped chickadee and you got this
[1:08:57] one and you got that one." And what
[1:08:59] information, what enrichment is to be
[1:09:01] gleaned from observing them? I'm not
[1:09:03] being disparaging of it. I myself love
[1:09:04] birds. In fact, I had the weird and
[1:09:07] unique opportunity to
[1:09:09] talk birds with Murray many years ago at
[1:09:12] a physics meeting. But my knowledge of
[1:09:14] birds is like very very superficial
[1:09:16] compared to yours, obviously. So, what
[1:09:18] is it about knowing all these
[1:09:20] nomenclatures and details about how they
[1:09:22] move and seeing them in the wild that
[1:09:24] what does it inform you about and what
[1:09:27] does it celebrate in you?
[1:09:29] >> What does it inform us about? Inform me
[1:09:33] about?
[1:09:34] Birds
[1:09:35] inform inform
[1:09:38] one of ours about everything. Birds
[1:09:41] Birds are the They're the easiest of all
[1:09:44] animals to observe and to understand.
[1:09:47] Birds operate by the same senses that
[1:09:51] you and I do. Birds operate by sight and
[1:09:53] by sound. We humans operate by sight and
[1:09:57] sound, whereas mammals operate
[1:09:59] especially by smell. One can't rat
[1:10:02] watch. Yes, you can watch antelopes, but
[1:10:05] you don't go around watching rats. If
[1:10:07] you want to understand rats,
[1:10:09] you have to have a good sense of smell.
[1:10:11] You catch them in traps. [laughter] But
[1:10:12] birds you can watch. And so,
[1:10:15] most of what we know about ecology
[1:10:17] and evolutionary biology
[1:10:20] and biogeography
[1:10:22] and behavior
[1:10:24] has been learned first on birds and has
[1:10:27] been learned in most detail about birds.
[1:10:30] And then that knowledge we can apply to
[1:10:33] to other animals. So, the things that
[1:10:36] that I've written about birds, um
[1:10:40] lots about ecology,
[1:10:42] lots about
[1:10:44] how birds divide ecological niches, lots
[1:10:47] about evolution, how bird species evolve
[1:10:51] in New Guinea, how do you get new
[1:10:52] species in an uninterrupted mountain
[1:10:55] range, biogeography, the distribution of
[1:10:59] plants and animals around the world
[1:11:02] began especially with the distribution
[1:11:03] of birds and then mammals, mammals and
[1:11:06] other things.
[1:11:07] The animals easiest to observe are are
[1:11:10] birds. So So when you say, "What can we
[1:11:12] learn about birds?"
[1:11:14] Uh an
[1:11:15] honest answer is we can learn everything
[1:11:17] about birds and everything in the
[1:11:19] biological world is easier to learn from
[1:11:22] birds than about other animals.
[1:11:25] >> Perfectly acceptable answer. Um
[1:11:28] the bird Many birds um sing. Some speak.
[1:11:31] I don't know if you're interested in the
[1:11:33] language evolution from birds, but um
[1:11:35] does the name Peter Marler um ring any
[1:11:38] bells? Yeah. He was at Davis when when I
[1:11:40] was a graduate student and
[1:11:41] I
[1:11:42] One of the most interesting
[1:11:43] observations,
[1:11:45] in my opinion, that he made was that the
[1:11:46] same uh species of bird would have a
[1:11:49] different song if they were raised at
[1:11:51] the Marin Headlands versus by the
[1:11:53] naturally raised by their bird parents
[1:11:56] at the Marin Headlands versus elsewhere.
[1:11:58] And that there was some innate
[1:12:00] relationship to uh the species. Like you
[1:12:03] could swap the young and they could
[1:12:05] learn the other location's song, but
[1:12:07] that they would always learn their
[1:12:09] location's song best. And I feel like if
[1:12:11] ever there was a set of scientific
[1:12:13] findings that kind of converges a number
[1:12:15] of your interests in language and
[1:12:16] location and migration, it's those Peter
[1:12:19] Marler studies. If you met What did you
[1:12:21] guys talk about? And um what do you
[1:12:23] think is uh perhaps interesting about
[1:12:25] bird song and bird language that can
[1:12:26] tell us about us?
[1:12:28] >> Everything.
[1:12:30] Everything. Bird song. Um it's a
[1:12:32] communication. What are birds trying to
[1:12:35] communicate? So So birds are singing.
[1:12:37] Why are they singing?
[1:12:39] What information are they conveying in
[1:12:41] the bird bird song? Um it's been assumed
[1:12:45] that
[1:12:47] bird songs of of males are territorial
[1:12:49] to stake out territories.
[1:12:51] But in recent years
[1:12:54] we've learned that there's
[1:12:56] really detailed information in bird
[1:12:59] calls. For example, birds that gather in
[1:13:02] flocks like chickadees and titmice, if
[1:13:04] they see a hawk, there's a call note.
[1:13:08] Just a small
[1:13:12] a simple call note
[1:13:13] when the when the birds see the hawk,
[1:13:16] they'll
[1:13:17] give that call note
[1:13:18] and birds then 200 ft away will hear
[1:13:21] that call note and they'll know that the
[1:13:24] hawk is there before the hawk can fly
[1:13:26] those 200 ft. So, there's a lot of
[1:13:28] information in bird songs.
[1:13:30] That then has inspired similar studies
[1:13:33] in
[1:13:35] in especially in monkeys. Um there was a
[1:13:37] husband and wife couple um Seyfarth and
[1:13:40] Cheney
[1:13:41] who were at UCLA, moved to Pennsylvania.
[1:13:44] They did wonderful studies on vervet
[1:13:46] monkeys. Vervet monkeys make grunts.
[1:13:49] And Seyfarth and Cheney thought
[1:13:52] some of these grunts sound a little
[1:13:53] different and so they started recording
[1:13:56] the grunts and playing the grunts and
[1:13:58] they noticed some grunts
[1:14:01] the monkeys looked up and some grunts
[1:14:03] the monkeys looked down and some grunts
[1:14:05] the monkeys
[1:14:07] propped themselves up and they they
[1:14:08] realized that that the different grunts
[1:14:11] um
[1:14:12] functioned as words. There's a grunt
[1:14:15] that means
[1:14:17] eagle and when a monkey
[1:14:20] vervet monkey comes up with a grunt for
[1:14:21] eagle
[1:14:22] the monkeys look up
[1:14:24] and there's another grunt grunt that
[1:14:25] means python.
[1:14:28] When
[1:14:29] vervets hear pi- they look down in the
[1:14:31] grass.
[1:14:33] There's another grunt that means
[1:14:34] leopard. When they hear a leopard, they
[1:14:36] s-
[1:14:37] scramble up a a tree. So, this is
[1:14:41] example of
[1:14:43] the information conveyed by sounds
[1:14:47] first in birds and then in in monkeys.
[1:14:50] >> I'd like to take a quick break and
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[1:16:28] The layers of sophistication in
[1:16:30] different animals, I think, is is really
[1:16:32] underappreciated. I mean, even for
[1:16:34] somebody like me who's a biologist, you
[1:16:36] know, it's always pleasantly surprising
[1:16:38] how sophisticated these other species
[1:16:41] are. Even if the stuff is hardwired,
[1:16:44] it's it's wild. In fairness to your
[1:16:47] earlier
[1:16:48] example where somebody forgave you for a
[1:16:51] mistake in the laboratory and you
[1:16:54] passed on or
[1:16:55] you said you were already rather
[1:16:56] forgiving, propagated that forward. When
[1:16:58] one of your graduate students or
[1:16:59] postdocs would walk in and say, "Listen,
[1:17:02] I realize we work on X, but I want to go
[1:17:05] work on this other thing." Were you
[1:17:08] tolerant, amused? You because the
[1:17:09] survival of a laboratory and a research
[1:17:11] program also depends on people
[1:17:13] hopping on board the main thrust of
[1:17:15] questions. I'm just curious. I'm not
[1:17:18] holding your feet to the fire. I'm just
[1:17:19] wondering how much
[1:17:21] adventurousness
[1:17:22] you tolerated in your scientific
[1:17:25] offspring.
[1:17:26] >> My postdocs and graduate students, when
[1:17:28] they were working with me, I negotiated
[1:17:31] with them to make sure that they would
[1:17:33] do a project that interested me and
[1:17:35] interested them.
[1:17:38] It had to be a project that interested
[1:17:40] me. Had to be a project [snorts] that
[1:17:41] interested me because
[1:17:43] I worked hard to find the funds and
[1:17:47] I I could take only two or three
[1:17:49] students at a time.
[1:17:51] A student would be with me for three or
[1:17:52] four years. Big investment on my part.
[1:17:55] I would make that investment only only
[1:17:57] if it made sense for me.
[1:17:59] On only one occasion did a student
[1:18:02] tell me that he wanted to have his own
[1:18:05] project. There was
[1:18:07] a wonderful
[1:18:09] Argentinian student um who one day came
[1:18:12] to me and said he had asked round in the
[1:18:15] physiology department and he had he had
[1:18:17] learned he'd been told that for postdocs
[1:18:22] um it was
[1:18:23] the the norm in the department, he
[1:18:25] alleged, was that the postdoc would
[1:18:27] spend half his time working on a project
[1:18:30] of his advisor and half the time
[1:18:32] half the time working on his own
[1:18:33] project. Now, that was untrue.
[1:18:36] But
[1:18:37] he he had found another post doc of whom
[1:18:40] that was true.
[1:18:42] He was a He was an interesting guy,
[1:18:43] fellow.
[1:18:44] And I was taken back. They were okay,
[1:18:46] you can do your your own He did a a
[1:18:50] project of his own
[1:18:51] as well as the project with me.
[1:18:54] But, that's that's the only the only
[1:18:55] time that I've had a student
[1:18:58] do a project that did not interest me.
[1:19:00] Otherwise, the projects have always been
[1:19:03] projects that interested both both me
[1:19:05] and the student. And that's good for the
[1:19:06] student because for the student for the
[1:19:09] student to get my full attention and to
[1:19:11] learn from me,
[1:19:13] the student
[1:19:15] can learn from me if it's something that
[1:19:16] I know about. The student cannot learn
[1:19:18] from me if it's something that I don't
[1:19:19] know anything about.
[1:19:20] >> It's clear, because you've told us and
[1:19:22] your career demonstrates this, that you
[1:19:24] have have had and maintain a lot of
[1:19:26] interests.
[1:19:27] Deep interests and deep curiosity,
[1:19:30] almost a compulsion to follow them and
[1:19:32] solve certain things about those for
[1:19:34] yourself. Before we started recording
[1:19:36] today, we were having a quick
[1:19:37] conversation about
[1:19:39] one's preference or lack of preference
[1:19:41] for certain pets, for certain things in
[1:19:43] the world. And we don't have to go into
[1:19:45] it. It wasn't contentious.
[1:19:47] But, what I was
[1:19:49] so struck by, positively struck by, is
[1:19:51] how clear you were. I think we had met
[1:19:53] about 20 seconds prior about
[1:19:57] the fact that some pets,
[1:19:59] some things, some topics,
[1:20:01] to you are
[1:20:03] in your life are a diversion. Like
[1:20:05] you're just not interested in them. And
[1:20:07] I think
[1:20:08] that
[1:20:09] fits beautifully with being interested
[1:20:11] in many other things. So, this is a
[1:20:14] somewhat
[1:20:15] strange question about to ask, but
[1:20:19] do you think about time? Like how much
[1:20:21] time do I have in life to do this? And
[1:20:24] did you always think that way? As
[1:20:26] somebody who just turned 51, I think
[1:20:28] about this more and more. But,
[1:20:30] the beautiful thing about an academic
[1:20:31] career is you sort of know, okay, I've
[1:20:33] got four to six years for this thesis.
[1:20:35] Boom. And then there is an opportunity
[1:20:37] to pivot slightly or or or a lot. But
[1:20:40] life is somewhat different, right? But
[1:20:42] it's clear to me that you were saying
[1:20:47] that's all fine and good for other
[1:20:48] people, but I don't want to be bothered
[1:20:52] invest my life energy in those things.
[1:20:55] Clear.
[1:20:56] Period. End of story. And it's very
[1:20:58] refreshing, in fact, because I um and it
[1:21:01] runs counter current to this idea that
[1:21:02] you're interested in everything. You're
[1:21:03] not interested in everything, if I may.
[1:21:05] You're very interested in a lot of
[1:21:07] things, and that provides a really nice
[1:21:10] razor to separate out all the things
[1:21:12] that you're just not going to be
[1:21:12] bothered by. Has this always been a
[1:21:14] feature of you?
[1:21:15] >> Absolutely not. And and to give you a
[1:21:18] preview of coming events of what's
[1:21:20] what's ahead of you, when I turned 80,
[1:21:23] 80 was not a shock to me. 81 was more of
[1:21:26] a shock because 81 meant that I was
[1:21:28] firmly embedded in the 80s. But even
[1:21:30] though I knew perfectly well the the
[1:21:33] numbers for life expectancy,
[1:21:35] um life expectancy
[1:21:38] of an American man at birth is something
[1:21:41] like 78. Life expectancy of an American
[1:21:43] man who's reached the age of 70, this is
[1:21:46] not so widely known. When you reach the
[1:21:48] age of 70, your life expectancy is not
[1:21:50] 78. Your life expectancy is 93 because a
[1:21:53] lot of the risk is behind you. And I
[1:21:56] knew that perfectly well. But when I
[1:21:58] when I was 81 years old, I wasn't
[1:22:00] counting what I could do. Um but in the
[1:22:03] last couple of years, since I'm since
[1:22:05] I'm now 89, I'm very conscious of time
[1:22:09] left and what I want to do in the time
[1:22:12] left. Couple of specific things that I
[1:22:14] want to do in the time left are
[1:22:17] to
[1:22:19] synthesize
[1:22:20] my understanding in
[1:22:23] New Guinea has 10 outline mountain
[1:22:25] ranges. I did the first ascents and the
[1:22:28] first morphological explorations of
[1:22:30] several of them and most detailed
[1:22:32] explorations of the rest.
[1:22:34] If I don't write that up, that knowledge
[1:22:36] will die with me. Because those mountain
[1:22:38] ranges are difficult to get into and I
[1:22:40] want to do a a synthesis
[1:22:43] looking at those 10 mountain ranges to
[1:22:45] understand what is it that makes a
[1:22:47] species a good colonist. Why some bird
[1:22:50] bird species are on all 10 mountain
[1:22:51] ranges and other birds are on only one
[1:22:54] mountain range. I've got that unique
[1:22:56] data set and I want to I want to write
[1:22:58] that up while I'm still alive. Another
[1:23:00] thing
[1:23:01] that that I've been thinking for quite a
[1:23:03] while. I'm I'm I'm musical. I
[1:23:05] particularly love the music of Bach. I'm
[1:23:07] I I sang
[1:23:09] I sang in Boston Handel and Haydn
[1:23:11] Society. I sang in in Cambridge's
[1:23:15] Cambridge, England's um musical society.
[1:23:18] I Benjamin Britten came and did the
[1:23:21] premiere of his Cantata Academica when I
[1:23:23] was singing in the Cambridge Chorus. So
[1:23:25] I
[1:23:26] I've been interested and I've
[1:23:28] sung in the composer Johann Sebastian
[1:23:30] Bach whom I particularly love. He wrote
[1:23:33] 210 church cantatas. I sang in about 20
[1:23:36] of them and I've been telling myself
[1:23:38] sooner or I want to get to know all of
[1:23:40] those cantatas. A year ago August and
[1:23:43] the time has come.
[1:23:45] Time ahead of me is finite. Better start
[1:23:47] on the cantatas now and so I started on
[1:23:50] the cantatas at the rate of about about
[1:23:51] one a week.
[1:23:52] Last night I
[1:23:54] re-listened to cantatas 61 and 62. Next
[1:23:57] will come cantata 63. Um
[1:23:59] at the rate I'm going, it will take me
[1:24:02] maybe three or four years to to
[1:24:05] get to know all of the Bach cantatas,
[1:24:06] but that's something that I would like
[1:24:08] to do. But I'm very conscious now of the
[1:24:11] the amount of time left.
[1:24:13] And and I've had that consciousness
[1:24:16] only in the past few years.
[1:24:18] >> Were there any things that you used to
[1:24:19] do out of obligate feelings of
[1:24:21] obligation that you no longer
[1:24:24] do that allow you more time for the
[1:24:26] things and the the people that are
[1:24:28] important to you and that you wish you
[1:24:30] would perhaps permitted yourself to do
[1:24:32] earlier.
[1:24:33] >> My first thought is is no by by and
[1:24:35] large
[1:24:37] I've done
[1:24:38] done the things that I've enjoyed doing.
[1:24:40] Now of course there there are things
[1:24:43] there are things that are not pleasure
[1:24:45] that have to be done in life. Sure.
[1:24:46] >> I spend lots of time
[1:24:48] probably I spend
[1:24:51] at least a month maybe two months of the
[1:24:53] year
[1:24:54] on our income tax returns which are
[1:24:56] complicated. I have a pathological
[1:24:59] tolerance for manipulating numbers so I
[1:25:02] don't object doing income taxes much as
[1:25:05] most other people
[1:25:07] would do it. Income tax has to be done
[1:25:09] and takes a lot of my lot of my time.
[1:25:12] What else do I do? My father washed the
[1:25:14] dishes.
[1:25:15] Oh, I wash the dishes together with my
[1:25:17] wife. Marie
[1:25:19] does the gardening. I have no interest
[1:25:21] in gardening. Marie does the gardening.
[1:25:24] Um Marie does does
[1:25:26] the shopping.
[1:25:28] Um I excuse myself by and Marie Marie
[1:25:31] knows that I spend
[1:25:34] the equivalent of a couple months of the
[1:25:35] year on income tax and I take care of
[1:25:38] the insurance
[1:25:39] and I do much of the organization of
[1:25:41] travel. I don't mind
[1:25:44] dealing with insurance. I don't mind
[1:25:46] doing
[1:25:47] doing income tax and I'd rather spend
[1:25:51] the time doing birds but it's it's not
[1:25:52] something that I greatly object to.
[1:25:54] >> I would never ask someone uh to come
[1:25:57] here and uh speak for somebody else but
[1:25:59] uh
[1:26:00] I was um
[1:26:02] gratified to learn that you're
[1:26:03] you were uh close friends with
[1:26:06] my colleague Paul Ehrlich um and his
[1:26:09] wife Sandra Kahn is still on the faculty
[1:26:11] at Stanford. Uh Paul wrote of course The
[1:26:13] Population Bomb. Um the book uh
[1:26:17] Paul and Sandra wrote the book Jaws with
[1:26:20] I think had a forward by you and maybe
[1:26:22] an introduction from Bob Sapolsky about
[1:26:25] um mouth breathing being detrimental to
[1:26:29] facial structure development and as well
[1:26:32] as health perhaps and they called it an
[1:26:34] epidemic. There's some interest in in
[1:26:37] nasal breathing and apnea and so forth.
[1:26:40] Paul was
[1:26:41] delightful person as you know, you knew
[1:26:42] him much better than I did but
[1:26:45] he
[1:26:46] got some things right and some people
[1:26:48] would argue he got certain things wrong
[1:26:49] like the population bomb my
[1:26:51] understanding was that it would it
[1:26:53] argued that we're we're going to be
[1:26:54] badly overpopulated by
[1:26:57] time we reach now and that that was
[1:26:59] dangerous. Some people would argue that
[1:27:01] birth rates are going down the
[1:27:02] replacement problem is more of an issue
[1:27:04] but was he correct about some of the
[1:27:07] issues with population growth and
[1:27:09] environmental impact. This isn't an area
[1:27:11] that I have any expertise but what do
[1:27:13] you think are some of the places where
[1:27:15] he was oh so correct because he was an
[1:27:18] incredibly smart and in many ways
[1:27:20] prescient
[1:27:21] on some of these topics.
[1:27:24] >> He was certainly correct that that the
[1:27:27] biggest threats that humans face today
[1:27:31] of course they include nuclear risk of
[1:27:34] exterminating ourselves.
[1:27:37] I'd say the three biggest risks we face
[1:27:38] are the nuclear risk,
[1:27:40] the consequences of inequality in our
[1:27:43] globalized world. Now
[1:27:45] anybody anywhere is affected by anybody
[1:27:48] anywhere else and that's an invitation
[1:27:50] to the World Trade Towers attack. It's
[1:27:53] in a globalized world it's dangerous to
[1:27:55] have inequality and then the the third
[1:27:57] the third risk is of course the the risk
[1:28:00] of running out of resources destroying
[1:28:03] our resources which we are doing at a at
[1:28:06] a rapid rate. Why are we in the process
[1:28:10] of over exploiting our resources?
[1:28:12] Because the world population has
[1:28:13] increased. There are now what? 9 billion
[1:28:16] people.
[1:28:17] 10,000 years ago there were probably 1
[1:28:19] million people. 1 million people on
[1:28:21] Earth and now we've got 9 billion.
[1:28:24] But what counts is not just the number
[1:28:27] of people, but the consumption rate per
[1:28:29] person.
[1:28:30] Consumption rate per person in the first
[1:28:32] world has has gone up and the result is
[1:28:35] that we are depleting
[1:28:37] fisheries.
[1:28:39] But like 4 billion of the world's people
[1:28:41] depend upon fish, seafood for their
[1:28:43] protein. We are depleting the world's
[1:28:46] forests. We are depleting the world's
[1:28:50] topsoil.
[1:28:52] Paul and his wife Anne, the book The
[1:28:54] Population Bomb, called attention to the
[1:28:57] to the danger of population growth.
[1:29:00] >> [snorts]
[1:29:01] >> And one can now add to population growth
[1:29:05] multiplied by consumption per person.
[1:29:07] Paul predicted big dangers within the
[1:29:10] next few decades.
[1:29:12] He predicted widespread starvation.
[1:29:15] If you look at his Wikipedia entry,
[1:29:19] um [snorts]
[1:29:19] so here's he's one of the world's
[1:29:22] great modern scientists
[1:29:24] and his the goddamn Wikipedia
[1:29:28] his Wikipedia entry instead harps on
[1:29:32] his book The Population Bomb and says it
[1:29:35] didn't prove correct. Well, out of the 9
[1:29:38] billion people in the world today,
[1:29:40] um how many of them are
[1:29:43] underfed
[1:29:44] and starving? Are they starving to
[1:29:46] death? No, they're not starving to death
[1:29:49] quickly, but they've got short lifespans
[1:29:52] and they're having mis- miserable
[1:29:54] lifespans because
[1:29:56] um a small fraction of the world's
[1:29:58] people
[1:29:59] have first world lifestyle. Even in the
[1:30:02] United States,
[1:30:05] the polarization in the United States
[1:30:07] between the people who have enough and
[1:30:09] the people who don't have enough is
[1:30:11] growing. So, to to blame Paul Ehrlich
[1:30:16] for getting it wrong, no. He got it got
[1:30:19] it right, but he got it right in a
[1:30:21] broader sense than the idiots who
[1:30:24] attacked him are willing to admit.
[1:30:26] >> Happy to hear you say this.
[1:30:28] Uh long been a fan of his work and him,
[1:30:30] and I agree.
[1:30:32] And Jaws is a wonderful book as and I
[1:30:34] think The Population Bomb still has
[1:30:36] great
[1:30:37] there's real value in reading it even if
[1:30:39] the specific statements as you pointed
[1:30:42] out held up differently, it it's still a
[1:30:45] a really important work. We talked about
[1:30:48] political leaders. We talked about
[1:30:50] religious leaders and a bit about cults,
[1:30:53] sports.
[1:30:55] Hm. Are you into sports?
[1:30:56] >> Am I into sport? Um I
[1:30:59] Well,
[1:31:00] I I work out.
[1:31:01] >> Yeah, you look very healthy. Is that an
[1:31:02] important part of your intellectual
[1:31:04] rigor as well?
[1:31:05] >> I've always been physically active. I
[1:31:07] began weightlifting in college. Um I ran
[1:31:12] for years. The day that my wife was was
[1:31:17] in labor, was about to deliver our
[1:31:19] twins,
[1:31:20] I was I was going running, and I was so
[1:31:22] excited that she was about to deliver
[1:31:24] twins that that instead of putting my
[1:31:27] lunch in lunch in the refrigerator and
[1:31:30] my shoes on the floor, I put my running
[1:31:33] shoes in the refrigerator. My lunch
[1:31:35] lunch was on the floor. So, I I still
[1:31:37] work out several days a week. Being
[1:31:38] physically active is a
[1:31:41] big part of my life. I get sat-
[1:31:43] satisfaction out of it.
[1:31:45] >> And I think for somebody to do physical
[1:31:47] exercise nowadays with the intention of
[1:31:50] of um building and preserving both their
[1:31:53] mind and body is is pretty common, but
[1:31:56] when you were in college, if I
[1:31:58] extrapolate uh that wasn't really talked
[1:32:01] about. In fact, the separation of
[1:32:03] intellectual and and athletic endeavors
[1:32:06] was kind of a theme. It was like people
[1:32:09] played sports, right? But working out
[1:32:11] was was sort of the stuff of of like
[1:32:13] military jocks and bodybuilders and
[1:32:15] running less so, right? But I find that
[1:32:19] all the
[1:32:21] scientists that I know that have a have
[1:32:23] had very long successful careers and are
[1:32:26] still going strong, all are very
[1:32:29] physically active and have been for a
[1:32:30] long time.
[1:32:32] All of them.
[1:32:33] And the ones who aren't are mostly dead,
[1:32:35] if I'm honest.
[1:32:36] >> The great Harvard organic chemist um
[1:32:38] Woodward RB Woodward who won two Nobel
[1:32:41] prizes,
[1:32:43] Woodward did not do any physical
[1:32:45] exercise whatsoever. He didn't want to
[1:32:47] spend any time doing anything except
[1:32:49] organic chemistry. And of course he died
[1:32:51] at an early age.
[1:32:52] >> In the lab, presumably.
[1:32:54] >> I think in bed.
[1:32:55] >> Okay. Well,
[1:32:56] better than in one's office or or lab.
[1:32:59] So,
[1:33:00] along those lines,
[1:33:02] >> [laughter]
[1:33:03] >> um
[1:33:04] athletics and sports, um
[1:33:07] which sport are you into spectator
[1:33:09] sports? Um and
[1:33:11] what led you to explore leaders in
[1:33:14] sport?
[1:33:14] >> I explored leaders in sports for the
[1:33:17] same reason that that business school
[1:33:20] professors
[1:33:21] do a lot of the
[1:33:22] much of their research on
[1:33:26] sports outcomes. In fact, I would say
[1:33:28] that
[1:33:29] that
[1:33:30] much or maybe even of the research on
[1:33:33] sports outcomes is done by business
[1:33:36] school professors.
[1:33:38] The the reason being that that business
[1:33:41] school professors are of course
[1:33:42] interested in business outcomes, but
[1:33:44] business outcomes they're they're hard
[1:33:46] to measure.
[1:33:47] Um CEOs
[1:33:49] tend to be secretive.
[1:33:51] Businesses
[1:33:54] may not publish their results or they do
[1:33:56] publish them every 5 years, so that the
[1:33:59] data for the business world is limited.
[1:34:01] But, in sports,
[1:34:05] games are played every week or a couple
[1:34:07] of times a week.
[1:34:08] The results of the games are announced.
[1:34:12] The coach is there on the sidelines,
[1:34:13] usually jumping up and down, screaming.
[1:34:16] The players are well known. Sports is on
[1:34:18] television.
[1:34:19] The result is that
[1:34:22] the methods that business school
[1:34:24] professors have developed for analyzing
[1:34:27] CEOs and analyzing the business world um
[1:34:30] are often developed in sports and
[1:34:33] they're they're debugged in sports. Um
[1:34:36] for example, in the business world, one
[1:34:38] of the main questions is is of course uh
[1:34:42] how much bus-
[1:34:43] how much of business success is due to
[1:34:45] the CEO?
[1:34:47] Uh this is a loudly dis- CEOs say,
[1:34:51] "I'm responsible for the success,
[1:34:53] therefore you ought to pay me billions
[1:34:55] of dollars because my my company our
[1:34:57] company makes a hundred billion dollars,
[1:34:59] but because I'm responsible for that
[1:35:02] hundred billion dollar profit, you can
[1:35:05] pay me ten billion dollars." Is that
[1:35:07] true?
[1:35:08] It's complicated to figure out.
[1:35:10] There are a couple of methods. One
[1:35:12] involves doing what's called ANOVA,
[1:35:13] analysis of variance. Analysis of
[1:35:15] variance applied to sports uh shows that
[1:35:19] roughly 15 to
[1:35:22] 30% of variance in sports success is due
[1:35:27] to the coach.
[1:35:28] About another 30% is due to players.
[1:35:33] And about another 30% is due to the
[1:35:36] institutions. That's in sports. In the
[1:35:39] business world, it turns out that this
[1:35:42] similarly um CEOs account for about
[1:35:46] 30% of ANOVA.
[1:35:48] And the individual company accounts for
[1:35:51] another Procter & Gamble, very well-run
[1:35:54] company. It's been well well-run for 150
[1:35:56] years.
[1:35:57] Another 30% is due to the industry.
[1:35:59] Perfume companies and computer companies
[1:36:03] and teenage t-shirt companies tend to be
[1:36:05] very profitable.
[1:36:08] Whereas
[1:36:10] departments of water and power
[1:36:12] tend to be unprofitable. Why? Because
[1:36:14] they're tightly regulated by by
[1:36:16] governments. So, and over
[1:36:19] um gets applied to
[1:36:22] the sports world and also to the
[1:36:24] business world. But in addition, coaches
[1:36:27] frequently get fired if they have a
[1:36:29] losing season.
[1:36:31] And CEOs get fired if the company has a
[1:36:36] poor year, low returns.
[1:36:38] So, if you fire a CEO because of a
[1:36:40] losing season
[1:36:42] the next year
[1:36:44] usually the new CEO has a better season.
[1:36:48] Why? Because
[1:36:50] 70% of the variance in sports outcomes
[1:36:53] is due to factors that are random with
[1:36:55] respect to the CEO. If you're throwing a
[1:36:58] throwing dice um and you throw dice and
[1:37:01] you get a one
[1:37:04] and
[1:37:05] so you say to the person who threw the
[1:37:07] dice, "You're a lousy dice thrower. You
[1:37:09] got one. I'm firing you."
[1:37:12] For statistical reasons, the chances are
[1:37:14] five out of six that the next dice
[1:37:16] thrower will do better than one could be
[1:37:19] because they're two, three, four, five
[1:37:20] five, six. In the sports world, when you
[1:37:22] fire a coach usually the new coach has a
[1:37:26] better record. Why? Because of all the
[1:37:27] random factors.
[1:37:29] Um
[1:37:30] my university, UCLA
[1:37:32] our athletic department is now $150
[1:37:34] million in debt. Why? Because we we
[1:37:37] fired all of our
[1:37:39] basketball coaches since John Wooden. Um
[1:37:42] and
[1:37:44] when we fire them, we have to buy out
[1:37:45] their contract.
[1:37:47] So,
[1:37:48] buy out their contract 5 million, 10
[1:37:50] million, 15 million million dollars.
[1:37:52] Similarly, when you fire the CEO, the
[1:37:54] next CEO
[1:37:55] is likely to do better for random
[1:37:57] reasons.
[1:37:59] As as with with dice throwing, that
[1:38:01] illustrates why business school
[1:38:03] professors have gotten lots of their
[1:38:05] insights by analyzing sports.
[1:38:08] >> How important is a
[1:38:10] a coach's
[1:38:12] philosophy uh and by extension a CEO's
[1:38:15] philosophy on like why we are doing
[1:38:17] this. We we hear so much about this like
[1:38:19] that the why behind things is so
[1:38:21] important, but it is that actually the
[1:38:23] case?
[1:38:23] >> Yes, but rarely. So, so John Wooden is
[1:38:27] is um usually regarded as the greatest
[1:38:30] coach in the history of American sports
[1:38:32] and in any sport. Um under John Wooden,
[1:38:35] uh UCLA basketball team won what, nine
[1:38:38] national championships and including
[1:38:41] seven in a row. No other college has won
[1:38:43] more than two national championships in
[1:38:45] a row. Why was John Wooden so
[1:38:47] successful? There were many reasons that
[1:38:48] he was successful. He got his players in
[1:38:51] peak physical condition. Although his
[1:38:53] players might be 5 in shorter than than
[1:38:56] Duke's players, he got his players to
[1:38:58] jump higher than than the Duke players.
[1:39:00] Um he was a master of detail. He cared
[1:39:03] about what socks that they wore because
[1:39:06] the socks that they wore affected, you
[1:39:08] know, [laughter]
[1:39:09] how how they jumped and how how they
[1:39:11] played. Uh he paid a lot of attention to
[1:39:15] getting his players
[1:39:16] to train not just in groups of five,
[1:39:19] which they'll be on the court, but in
[1:39:20] groups of seven so that he could
[1:39:22] substitute. But perhaps the most
[1:39:23] important thing about about John Wooden
[1:39:25] was was that for him, basketball was not
[1:39:27] a sport. Basketball was a philosophy of
[1:39:30] life. And John Wooden's
[1:39:33] great players, Bill Walton and Hal
[1:39:36] Sendor, they said, "Coach Wooden, I've
[1:39:38] learned more from Coach Wooden than from
[1:39:40] any human other than my parents. But
[1:39:42] what I learned from him was about
[1:39:45] life, not about playing basketball.
[1:39:47] Basketball Basketball was a model for
[1:39:50] life.
[1:39:51] That's unusual among coaches.
[1:39:53] Bill Belichick, I've never heard anyone
[1:39:56] say that say that Bill Belichick is a
[1:39:59] model for life. And what Bobby Knight
[1:40:03] Nobody says that
[1:40:04] Bobby Knight was a model model for
[1:40:08] philosophy of life. So, why is it John
[1:40:10] Wooden was so successful?
[1:40:12] Partly he was a master of detail, but
[1:40:14] also because he regarded basketball as
[1:40:19] a form of living life, and that's
[1:40:22] something that you can't fake. Yeah, you
[1:40:24] you you can fake and you can learn how
[1:40:26] to how to [snorts] train your players to
[1:40:29] jump higher, but you can't fake a
[1:40:31] philosophy of life as John Wooden had.
[1:40:33] >> Is there
[1:40:35] an analog inside of the Well, nowadays
[1:40:37] it seems it's tech CEOs and
[1:40:39] entrepreneurs and we have these looming
[1:40:42] larger-than-life figures that having
[1:40:44] grown up in the San Francisco Bay Area,
[1:40:46] you know, it was Hewlett and Packard
[1:40:49] when I was a kid and and then Steve
[1:40:51] Jobs, obviously.
[1:40:53] And Bill Gates
[1:40:55] in Seattle and then now we have Mark
[1:40:57] Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, Sam Altman, Dario
[1:41:00] at Anthropic is sort of quickly emerging
[1:41:02] as another one of these big figures, but
[1:41:05] I probably missed a few out there, but
[1:41:07] those sort of the the big, whether they
[1:41:08] like it or not, celebrity technologists
[1:41:10] that people look at and to for like
[1:41:13] where where where is humanity going?
[1:41:16] Politics aside. The Steve Jobs would
[1:41:19] clearly had a philosophy of creating
[1:41:21] beautiful things and design and
[1:41:23] technology being fused in a way that was
[1:41:26] you know, highly accessible, that
[1:41:29] objects had
[1:41:30] friendliness to them or something even
[1:41:32] if it was an Apple. So, it seemed there
[1:41:33] was a something philosophical, even
[1:41:35] slightly mystical there.
[1:41:36] How do you look at these technology
[1:41:39] leaders and um
[1:41:42] what do you see? What do you think?
[1:41:43] >> Bill Gates, I've met him and I've had
[1:41:45] several lengthy conversation and I like
[1:41:47] him. I'm good experience in my
[1:41:49] conversation
[1:41:50] with him. Um there are people who've met
[1:41:53] him under other circumstances who have
[1:41:54] different views of him.
[1:41:56] Elon Musk, I met once.
[1:41:59] Jeff Bezos,
[1:42:00] >> Oh yeah, so forgive me, I should have
[1:42:01] mentioned Bezos. Yeah.
[1:42:03] >> Jeff Bezos, Bezos, I I met met once. Um
[1:42:06] of the leaders in the in the business
[1:42:09] world, I don't know that many of them.
[1:42:12] The one that I admire as a person is
[1:42:15] Yvon Chouinard of of Patagonia.
[1:42:18] For him, as with John Wooden, Patagonia
[1:42:21] is a model for life.
[1:42:24] He
[1:42:25] emphasized having his staff have have
[1:42:27] time off. He emphasized
[1:42:30] Patagonia
[1:42:32] being sustainable. He had the
[1:42:33] opportunity to acquire more cotton,
[1:42:35] produce more more product. No, he chose
[1:42:39] not to acquire more cotton because he
[1:42:40] didn't want he didn't want to
[1:42:42] overdevelop cotton agriculture. He is or
[1:42:45] was a
[1:42:47] full person, not not just not just a
[1:42:51] leading business person. He did the
[1:42:53] first ascent of the the
[1:42:56] um the most difficult face face in
[1:42:59] Yosemite. He was a top-rank mountaineer.
[1:43:03] I know him.
[1:43:05] Um I wrote the preface for his
[1:43:07] autobiography. Um he has a philosophy of
[1:43:10] life. Do any other
[1:43:12] of the big names Does Jeff Bezos have a
[1:43:16] philosophy of life? Do Does Mark
[1:43:18] Zuckerberg have a philosophy of life?
[1:43:20] I'm not aware of these big names having
[1:43:23] a philosophy of life that goes beyond
[1:43:25] their business. Now, Steve Jobs
[1:43:27] certainly had a philosophy of life as
[1:43:29] regards business. When he came back to
[1:43:32] Apple after he'd been fired the first
[1:43:34] time and Apple was in difficulty, he was
[1:43:36] brought back the second time.
[1:43:38] His philosophy was that
[1:43:41] Apple he reduced instead of Apple
[1:43:43] producing 100 products, he said we
[1:43:45] should produce four products.
[1:43:47] And [snorts]
[1:43:48] the product should look nice and
[1:43:52] they should be attractive
[1:43:54] and they should should be
[1:43:56] easy easy to handle. They should not be
[1:43:59] like the
[1:44:01] remote for my wife's and my TV
[1:44:05] to watch the world soccer cup. Our
[1:44:07] remote has what 47 buttons and we had to
[1:44:10] call up our sons each time to to tell us
[1:44:13] how to
[1:44:13] operate the remote. So, Steve Jobs'
[1:44:16] devices
[1:44:18] don't have 47,
[1:44:19] but he he had a philosophy certainly of
[1:44:23] products.
[1:44:24] I don't know whether he had a la- larger
[1:44:26] philosophy of of of life.
[1:44:29] As John Wooden certainly did.
[1:44:32] >> So, we talked about political leaders,
[1:44:35] religious leaders, sports. You said
[1:44:37] there's a fourth category that you cover
[1:44:39] in your book.
[1:44:40] >> So, we got political leaders,
[1:44:42] business leaders,
[1:44:44] sports leaders, and religious. Those are
[1:44:46] the four category four categories.
[1:44:48] >> And business and sport seem to kind of
[1:44:51] interdigitate a bit, right? It sounds
[1:44:53] like.
[1:44:54] >> The connection between
[1:44:55] business studies and sports studies has
[1:44:58] been especially tight, but it's also the
[1:45:01] case that the the business school
[1:45:03] professors who've studied sports
[1:45:08] have also studied
[1:45:11] success in politics. So,
[1:45:15] perhaps the the best single paper that I
[1:45:17] know on
[1:45:20] developing new methods for for studying
[1:45:22] the success of of leaders
[1:45:26] looks at leaders in
[1:45:28] politics, looks at leaders in business
[1:45:31] and leaders in sport, but it also looks
[1:45:33] at leaders in politics. And the
[1:45:34] conclusions that it comes to are that
[1:45:38] prime ministers
[1:45:39] make more of a difference than do
[1:45:41] governors
[1:45:43] of states, and governors
[1:45:45] make more of a difference than do
[1:45:46] mayors. Why? Because prime ministers
[1:45:49] have more power. Also, dictators make
[1:45:53] more of a difference than do
[1:45:56] democratic leaders. Democratic leaders
[1:45:58] in wartime make more of a difference
[1:46:01] than do democratic leaders in peacetime,
[1:46:03] because in wartime democratic leaders
[1:46:05] are
[1:46:05] are given more power. Um so,
[1:46:09] the business school professors have also
[1:46:11] applied their methods to
[1:46:13] to um politics as well.
[1:46:16] >> Many people are interested in many
[1:46:17] things, and they have a genuine
[1:46:20] excitement,
[1:46:21] and they reverberate on the idea of
[1:46:24] pursuing music or
[1:46:26] singing or an instrument or
[1:46:28] a topic of study or a sport. Um
[1:46:32] What would you tell
[1:46:33] those people? Because we've all heard
[1:46:36] the just do it mantra, and that's great.
[1:46:39] But um
[1:46:41] again, I'm not a psychologist, but it
[1:46:42] seems that within you there is or
[1:46:45] perhaps has always been this
[1:46:47] uh almost compulsion to go in a certain
[1:46:48] direction, but you're you're structured
[1:46:50] in how you go about that. You you didn't
[1:46:53] just try to do everything at once. And
[1:46:55] you you clearly succeeded in each of
[1:46:58] these domains. I'm sure there were
[1:46:59] challenges along the way, but what what
[1:47:01] would you, if anything, would you like
[1:47:02] to pass along to people of any age?
[1:47:05] >> I would begin by saying do what you
[1:47:06] enjoy, but it's got to be broader than
[1:47:08] that. A friend of mine, the great
[1:47:10] biologist Tom Lovejoy, now unfortunately
[1:47:12] dead. Um Tom told me
[1:47:15] when he was a teenager, Tom asked his
[1:47:16] father, "Daddy,
[1:47:18] what should I do for a career?"
[1:47:20] And his father said, "Do something that
[1:47:22] you're good at."
[1:47:24] Do something that you enjoy.
[1:47:26] Do something that makes a difference
[1:47:30] in the world. What advice would I give
[1:47:32] people? Perhaps the main advice because
[1:47:35] it's what most people do not do
[1:47:38] is
[1:47:40] make sure that you do something that you
[1:47:42] enjoy.
[1:47:43] And if people tell you no, you got to do
[1:47:45] this, this, this,
[1:47:47] tell them to go to hell.
[1:47:48] L- literally. So many people say, "You
[1:47:51] got to
[1:47:53] You got to live your life this way. You
[1:47:55] got to iron your shirts." W- When I was
[1:47:57] a graduate, I didn't iron my shirts.
[1:48:00] I'm
[1:48:00] >> [snorts]
[1:48:01] >> You know, someone who irons my shirts.
[1:48:02] But but as far as I'm concerned, I If
[1:48:05] anyone tells me, "Jared, spend your time
[1:48:07] ironing your shirts,"
[1:48:09] go to hell. There There are other things
[1:48:11] that I want to do with my time. And
[1:48:13] whether my This shirt is ironed, but
[1:48:15] whether my shirts are ironed or not
[1:48:16] doesn't make much difference to life.
[1:48:18] What does make a difference is, am I
[1:48:20] doing something that I enjoy?
[1:48:22] Am I doing something that I'm good at?
[1:48:24] Yep.
[1:48:25] Am I doing something that's that's good
[1:48:27] for the world? Yeah, I've spent a lot of
[1:48:29] time designing national the national
[1:48:31] park systems in Indonesia and Guinea,
[1:48:34] designing the principles for national
[1:48:36] parks in general. I've written I've
[1:48:38] written books a lot about the big risks
[1:48:41] facing the world. So I've devoted a lot
[1:48:42] of my life to trying to convince people
[1:48:44] to to live better lives and not to not
[1:48:47] to mess up the world. I've done things
[1:48:50] that I I enjoy. I've done things that
[1:48:52] that I'm good at. There are some things
[1:48:54] that I wanted to do, but I discovered
[1:48:56] that I was not not I I would have loved
[1:48:58] to be a conductor of orchestras, but to
[1:49:00] conduct an orchestra, you see the
[1:49:02] players out there, and you got to give
[1:49:03] the downbeat not when the players are
[1:49:05] playing, but because of the speed of
[1:49:08] sound, you got to give the downbeat
[1:49:10] ahead. I could not block out the sound
[1:49:14] of the the plane. I could not
[1:49:16] do the downbeat before the players play.
[1:49:20] And I tried conducting UCLA invited me
[1:49:22] to conduct there they were and I
[1:49:24] conducted the orchestra once and because
[1:49:26] I cannot anticipate the downbeat, I gave
[1:49:29] up my desire to be a to conduct an
[1:49:32] orchestra although I really loved doing
[1:49:34] it. So, but I've ended up doing the
[1:49:36] doing the things that I'm good at.
[1:49:38] Doing things that I love doing.
[1:49:40] Doing things that are important to the
[1:49:42] world good for the world.
[1:49:43] >> I agree on all all fronts. It's not that
[1:49:45] you need my agreement. I said there were
[1:49:47] two questions you answered the second
[1:49:49] [clears throat] question in the process
[1:49:50] of answering the first question. So,
[1:49:53] I just want to conclude by saying thank
[1:49:55] you for taking time out of your
[1:49:57] busy schedule to come
[1:49:59] share with us and educate us.
[1:50:01] I'm super excited about Prophets,
[1:50:04] Prophets, Coaches, and Kings: When Do
[1:50:06] Leaders Matter? Today's conversation
[1:50:08] only makes me more excited about it. I
[1:50:11] will say that your
[1:50:12] your father despite his encouragement to
[1:50:15] you to continue and become a biologist
[1:50:18] and not a translator, with all due
[1:50:20] respect he partially failed because for
[1:50:22] me and for millions of other people
[1:50:24] you've become a translator of ideas that
[1:50:26] we would have never encountered or
[1:50:28] considered and it's inspired a ton of
[1:50:31] curiosity and learning in me through
[1:50:32] your books and today's just another
[1:50:35] extension of that and I'm sure this next
[1:50:38] book will just continue that. So,
[1:50:40] thank you for not obeying his request
[1:50:42] and at the same time obeying his
[1:50:44] request. I really appreciate your time
[1:50:46] and coming here today and hopefully
[1:50:47] we'll do it again.
[1:50:49] >> Thank you. I've enjoyed a lot I'm
[1:50:50] talking with you. You know
[1:50:52] for
[1:50:53] you know yourself for for writing books
[1:50:56] um one one does
[1:50:59] interviews and podcasts and interviewers
[1:51:03] differ. They're not all the same. Some
[1:51:05] interviewers
[1:51:07] um better prepared than other
[1:51:08] interviewers. Some interviewers know
[1:51:10] more about the subject than other
[1:51:12] interviewers.
[1:51:13] It's a real pleasure to do a
[1:51:15] conversation with you. You're a It's a
[1:51:18] pleasure for me to be interviewed by
[1:51:19] you.
[1:51:20] >> Well, thank you. The pleasure was mine,
[1:51:21] and we'll do it again. Thank you for
[1:51:23] joining me for today's discussion with
[1:51:25] Dr. Jared Diamond. To learn more about
[1:51:27] his work and his recent book, Prophets,
[1:51:29] Prophets, Coaches, and Kings, please see
[1:51:31] the links in the show note caption. If
[1:51:33] you're learning from and/or enjoying
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