Transcript
[0:03] I think that all traditions, all
[0:05] pathways, all all methods
[0:09] all practices
[0:11] sooner or later
[0:13] more or less directly take you to the
[0:17] recognition of the nature of your being.
[0:21] What is that recognition?
[0:23] Peace and happiness are the nature of
[0:25] your being.
[0:26] And you share your being with everyone
[0:29] and everything.
[0:30] I think that's it. If you took the last
[0:33] 3,000 years
[0:36] everything that has been written and
[0:37] said in all the religious and
[0:40] contemplative traditions and distill
[0:42] them into a sentence
[0:45] peace and happiness [music] are the
[0:46] nature of your being
[0:47] and you share your being with everyone
[0:49] and everything.
[0:59] >> Welcome to the Common Good. I'm Steve
[1:02] Varley.
[1:03] Today I'm at [music] the Garrison
[1:04] Institute with Rupert Spira, spiritual
[1:07] teacher author and artist whose work
[1:10] explores the nature of our experience
[1:12] and what it means to share our being
[1:14] with others.
[1:15] We begin with clay and beauty and talk
[1:17] about why his teaching increasingly uses
[1:19] the language of [music] being, love, and
[1:21] devotion.
[1:23] We also explore question that matters to
[1:25] this podcast.
[1:26] How does an inward discovery relate to
[1:29] suffering and our responsibilities to
[1:31] other people?
[1:32] And we hear how those questions come
[1:34] alive on retreat.
[1:36] Here's my conversation with Rupert
[1:37] Spira.
[1:54] >> [music]
[1:57] >> Rupert Spira, welcome to the Common
[1:59] Good. I'd love to start with your life
[2:02] as a ceramic artist. What were you
[2:05] exploring through clay and how's that
[2:07] connect with the work you're doing now?
[2:10] >> Well, as human beings, we experience in
[2:15] three [snorts] different ways. We we
[2:17] think,
[2:19] we feel,
[2:21] and we perceive.
[2:23] And this each of these modes of
[2:26] experience
[2:28] is a pathway through which it's possible
[2:31] to return to one's true nature or
[2:34] recognize the nature of reality, however
[2:37] one expresses it. And the spiritual
[2:39] traditions in general have elaborated
[2:41] pathways
[2:42] that
[2:43] cater to the first two, thinking and
[2:46] feeling, the paths of knowledge and the
[2:47] paths of devotion. These two pathways
[2:49] are very well
[2:50] accounted for in the spiritual
[2:52] traditions, Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, and
[2:56] in many different traditions. The third
[2:58] path is um
[3:01] less common in the spiritual tradition,
[3:04] the path of perception.
[3:06] And that's more the path of the artist.
[3:09] So, thinking can be a pathway [music]
[3:10] back to your true nature.
[3:12] Feeling or devotion, love, can be a
[3:14] pathway back to your true nature, but
[3:16] also so can perception.
[3:18] Perception that and that's really the
[3:20] the role of the artist is not to engage
[3:22] you in a line of reasoning, not to
[3:24] [music] engage you in a devotional
[3:25] practice of surrender,
[3:27] but to engage your senses, to take your
[3:30] senses on a journey. A visual journey if
[3:32] you're a painter, an auditory journey if
[3:35] you're a musician,
[3:37] your
[3:37] taste if you're a chef. An artist uses
[3:41] one or more of
[3:43] our faculties of perception and takes
[3:45] you on a on a journey not outwards into
[3:49] [music] the world, but inwards
[3:52] towards the source of perception. And
[3:55] And the painter Paul Cézanne was very
[3:57] explicit about about this. He said,
[3:59] "What What I want to do when people look
[4:02] at my paintings," he said, "I want to
[4:04] give people a taste of nature's
[4:05] eternity.
[4:07] I don't just want to reproduce the
[4:08] mountain that I'm looking at. I want to
[4:10] give them a taste." And he was very
[4:13] explicit about it. He said, "Everything
[4:15] we see of a mountain is just fleeting
[4:17] perceptions. All we know of the world is
[4:19] fleeting perceptions. And yet at the
[4:21] same time there is something
[4:24] something real in nature that persists,
[4:26] something that lasts." And he he was
[4:28] very explicit about his work. He said,
[4:30] "My The purpose of my work is to use the
[4:33] elements of nature, in his case color
[4:35] and form, to use that to evoke in his
[4:38] viewer this what he called the taste of
[4:40] nature's eternity, that that that which
[4:42] is eternal behind
[4:45] our
[4:46] fleeting, changing perceptions. And that
[4:49] I would suggest is the the ultimate role
[4:52] of the artist. That's what great artists
[4:54] do. They they
[4:56] take our senses on a journey, but the
[4:59] purpose is to in a way
[5:03] take us beyond [music] sense perception
[5:07] to the reality that lies, as it were,
[5:09] behind
[5:12] the appearance of the world. What is it
[5:15] that is appearing to us as the world?
[5:18] What is that reality that our sense
[5:20] perceptions render as the world? An
[5:24] artist's job, the great artists, I would
[5:27] suggest that their ultimate function is
[5:29] to give people access to that. So, now
[5:32] to to answer your question, what what
[5:34] was I trying to do in in in in my
[5:36] studio? Well, in my own small way,
[5:39] that's what I was trying to do.
[5:41] Now, what's the common name for that
[5:45] taste of nature's eternity?
[5:48] beauty.
[5:49] That's what the experience of beauty is.
[5:52] The
[5:53] the collapse of the the veil of
[5:56] appearances
[5:57] and the revelation of the reality that
[5:59] lies behind
[6:01] the appearance. That is the experience
[6:04] of beauty.
[6:05] And that's the experience that an artist
[6:06] is trying to precipitate in their their
[6:09] viewer, their reader, their listener,
[6:11] and and so on. And that
[6:13] in my own way was what I was trying to
[6:15] do
[6:16] in my studio. It's exactly the same that
[6:18] I'm trying to do now through but
[6:21] words are my medium rather than than
[6:23] clay.
[6:24] >> Do you miss um getting your hands dirty?
[6:27] >> I do. Yes. Yes, I do.
[6:31] And uh I suspect that over the next few
[6:34] years
[6:35] my wife and I have just moved to rural
[6:38] Devon in the southwest of England
[6:41] to a farm, a little farm. And and I
[6:43] suspect that over the next couple of
[6:44] years I will build a little studio and
[6:47] start making pots again on a on a small
[6:48] scale. Yes, I do. I I miss I miss making
[6:51] things with my hands, yeah.
[6:53] >> Making pots and bowls meant spending a
[6:56] lot of time in a studio. And now you're
[6:58] with people hearing their questions and
[7:00] seeing how the teaching lands.
[7:04] What has that more immediate
[7:06] relationship been like for you?
[7:08] >> Yes. Yes, it's true. When I was in my
[7:11] studio, I was
[7:13] either on my own or with one or two
[7:16] assistants. So, as you say, it's a it's
[7:18] a solitary
[7:19] activity. So, I would stay in my studio,
[7:21] but my pots would then go out all over
[7:25] the world.
[7:26] And um over the years I I was making
[7:28] pots for, I don't know, 30 or so years
[7:31] at um
[7:32] probably tens of thousands of people
[7:34] must have uh
[7:36] seen them and many of them purchased
[7:39] them. And I I I know many of them still
[7:41] many people still use my pots today.
[7:44] But, I wouldn't accompany my pots around
[7:47] the world. I I I stayed home in my
[7:49] studio. My pots went out around the
[7:51] world. The difference is that now, as
[7:53] you say, is that I don't stay home in my
[7:55] studio. I
[7:56] I go out around the world. So, yes,
[7:59] there's a there's a difference. What's
[8:00] very nice about what I What The both
[8:03] activities are profoundly rewarding but
[8:06] for very different reasons.
[8:08] Now, of course, I'm relating
[8:11] directly with people. You have a
[8:12] conversation and you see the response
[8:15] immediately. And then you can tailor
[8:17] your response. You can have a
[8:18] conversation.
[8:20] The conversation you have as an artist
[8:22] is not so direct. You make a piece of
[8:24] work in your
[8:25] studio. The You stay in your studio.
[8:27] Your piece of work may go off to Japan
[8:30] or America.
[8:31] And it has its effect on the viewer or
[8:34] the user, but you don't get to see that
[8:36] effect. So, you It's not such an
[8:38] immediate conversation. It's still a
[8:40] conversation, but it's not so direct and
[8:43] immediate. One of the things I love
[8:44] about what I do now is this immediacy of
[8:47] being able to
[8:48] to be with people face-to-face and have
[8:50] conversations with them.
[8:52] >> Rupert, in your recent teaching, I think
[8:55] I hear more about being God, love, and
[8:58] devotion and less of the philosophical
[9:00] language of consciousness.
[9:03] Has the teaching changed or
[9:05] are you just approaching the same thing
[9:07] through a different door?
[9:10] >> The essential understanding hasn't
[9:13] changed, but you're absolutely right.
[9:15] The expression of the teaching has
[9:17] changed.
[9:18] I grew up in in the um
[9:22] classical Vedanta tradition. So, my
[9:26] early The early vocabulary in which I
[9:30] first heard about these ideas and began
[9:32] to explore them and express them was the
[9:34] classical of the
[9:37] literature, which as you say
[9:40] uses the words um
[9:42] consciousness, awareness, and
[9:44] but um
[9:46] I'm really a
[9:48] So, although I'm a Vedantin on the
[9:49] outside, I'm really a Sufi on the
[9:51] inside. And I think as I speak and write
[9:55] about these matters more,
[9:57] I've in a way I've kind of
[10:00] liberated myself
[10:03] from my tradition, from the tradition in
[10:05] which I
[10:07] grew up and explored these matters and
[10:09] first heard about these matters and
[10:11] explored them. So, I've
[10:12] it's like a
[10:14] it's like when you're learning a craft,
[10:16] you have to you have to subject yourself
[10:18] to the discipline of learning a craft.
[10:20] And that's a very disciplined or any art
[10:22] form, that's a very disciplined work,
[10:24] but once you've mastered your
[10:27] your craft, you can let go.
[10:30] You can let go of the rules, you can let
[10:32] go of the language, you begin to develop
[10:34] your own language. You then begin to
[10:36] take off.
[10:38] And I think over the last
[10:41] three or four years, I've noticed I've
[10:43] done that. For instance, you're you're
[10:44] absolutely right that
[10:46] I tend to speak more and more of being
[10:49] and less in terms of awareness. It That
[10:51] wasn't something I calculated. I just
[10:54] notice. I still do use the words
[10:56] awareness and consciousness, but to me
[10:58] they're a little
[11:00] they're a little more philosophical, a
[11:01] little more clinical. I I can do that if
[11:04] I
[11:05] if I need to, but I've noticed uh
[11:08] I think speaking of being it I feel that
[11:10] it's more direct, it speaks more to the
[11:12] heart. Uh there's less conceptual
[11:17] um
[11:18] Nobody would ever argue with you
[11:21] about what being is. There isn't a
[11:23] raging debate going on
[11:26] in culture about what being is.
[11:29] I read recently there are
[11:31] uh is it 220
[11:34] different views about what consciousness
[11:36] is?
[11:36] >> [laughter]
[11:37] >> That's right.
[11:38] >> I don't think there are 220 views about
[11:40] what being is.
[11:42] Being doesn't lend itself to
[11:45] intellectual analysis and argument.
[11:49] If
[11:50] If you say to
[11:51] someone on the street, do do you know
[11:53] what consciousness is? You know, most
[11:54] people I mean, not in these circles, but
[11:56] most people never thought about
[11:58] consciousness, but
[12:00] if you stop someone on the street and
[12:01] say to to them, do
[12:03] do you feel that you exist?
[12:06] Do you feel that you are? Can you say of
[12:08] your experience simply
[12:10] I am.
[12:11] Everyone will pause and go, yeah, of
[12:13] course. Of course I am. Of course. So,
[12:15] it using the word being it it avoids the
[12:19] kind of
[12:19] conceptual quagmire that it's easy to
[12:22] get into speaking about consciousness
[12:24] and the nature of consciousness.
[12:27] So, I find it as I say, I haven't
[12:28] calculated this. It wasn't a I didn't
[12:31] work it out, but I just noticed more and
[12:32] more that I speak more and more about
[12:35] being. I think it's because it comes it
[12:37] comes it it's it's my natural language.
[12:41] Consciousness in a way
[12:43] consciousness, awareness, this was a a
[12:44] language I inherited from my tradition,
[12:46] for which I deeply indebted to the
[12:49] classical Advaita tradition. I love it
[12:51] and love the teachers that I had and
[12:53] but I inherited that from my
[12:55] I took it on from the outside. Whereas,
[12:59] you know, I grew up I was in English
[13:00] boarding school for 10 years. We used to
[13:02] speak about we used to sing hymns and
[13:04] psalms about God's being every single
[13:07] day in school for for 10 years. I I was
[13:09] kind of brought up
[13:12] thinking about God's being, infinite
[13:13] being. So, it it's much closer to me
[13:15] that language. It's much more deeply in
[13:16] me.
[13:17] And I think it's more in a way it's more
[13:20] true to to me to use that language. I'm
[13:23] more at home there.
[13:26] >> Your own path took you through several
[13:28] religious traditions and practices, but
[13:31] you've said other people don't need to
[13:33] follow that same route.
[13:35] What did those traditions make possible
[13:36] for you, and when might someone benefit
[13:39] from them
[13:40] rather than going straight to this
[13:43] exploration of being?
[13:45] >> I think that all traditions, all
[13:48] pathways, all all methods,
[13:52] all practices, sooner or later,
[13:56] more or less directly, take you to the
[13:59] recognition of the nature of your being.
[14:04] What is that recognition?
[14:07] Peace and happiness are the nature of
[14:09] your being,
[14:10] and you share your being with everyone
[14:12] and everything.
[14:14] I think that's it. If you took the last
[14:17] 3,000 years,
[14:20] everything that has been written and
[14:21] said in all the religious and
[14:23] contemplative traditions, and distill
[14:26] them into a sentence,
[14:29] that would be one possible succinct
[14:32] summary of the entire tradition. Peace
[14:34] and happiness are the nature of your
[14:36] being,
[14:37] and you share your being with everyone
[14:38] and everything.
[14:41] So,
[14:45] that is all that is necessary to be
[14:47] recognized. Now, how we come to that
[14:50] recognition varies enormously from
[14:53] person to person.
[14:55] I went through
[14:57] um
[14:57] >> [clears throat]
[14:58] >> mantra meditation, the classical Advaita
[15:00] tradition. I spent a lot of time in the
[15:03] Sufi tradition, the Mevlevi turning, the
[15:05] Gurdjieff movements, then I came across
[15:07] the direct path through Francis Lucille,
[15:10] and he introduced me to Atman and
[15:11] Krishna Menon, and
[15:13] and I eventually came to this what I
[15:15] sometimes call the pathless path, which
[15:17] is
[15:18] abidance in being through through this
[15:20] journey through the progressive path and
[15:22] direct path. That was
[15:24] necessary for me.
[15:25] But I don't think that that particular
[15:27] trajectory is necessary for everybody.
[15:31] Most people have to go on some journey.
[15:35] Uh some kind of progressive path,
[15:37] mindfulness meditation
[15:40] um
[15:42] very often through self-inquiry,
[15:43] inquiring of what it is that knows or is
[15:46] aware of your experience.
[15:47] Most people go have to go through some
[15:50] journey
[15:51] practice or or methods to come to their
[15:53] being.
[15:55] But I don't feel that everybody needs to
[15:57] go the way that I go. And when I'm
[15:59] speaking with people, I try and go there
[16:02] straight away. That that's really what
[16:03] the direct path is. You you just go
[16:05] there straight away. And it's only if
[16:08] someone has difficulty
[16:10] in going directly from the content of
[16:12] their experience all the way back to
[16:14] their true nature, that you then
[16:15] interpose more gradual steps. And I
[16:20] think that's the way all the traditions
[16:22] um
[16:23] arose. I think that that the teachers in
[16:27] the past who had this direct recognition
[16:30] of the nature of their being would have
[16:32] tried to take their
[16:33] their students, their listeners, their
[16:35] their disciples directly there. And only
[16:38] when they were met with objections and
[16:40] questions, difficulties, would they then
[16:43] have elaborated
[16:45] more progressive means. For instance,
[16:47] let's say somebody is suffering
[16:50] terribly.
[16:51] And to go in one step
[16:55] from their suffering all the way back to
[16:57] their being
[16:59] would be yes, in theory, possible, but
[17:02] in practice just too big a step. The
[17:04] pull of their suffering would be too
[17:06] strong.
[17:07] And the teacher would recognize this and
[17:09] say, "Okay."
[17:11] He wouldn't literally work it out like
[17:12] this. It I think it happens more
[17:14] spontaneously, but the
[17:15] the teacher might say, "Okay,
[17:17] I give your attention to your breath."
[17:20] Unlike the
[17:22] your suffering,
[17:24] your breath is a is a neutral
[17:26] transparent
[17:28] experience. It It's It's not all the way
[17:31] back to your being. You're still giving
[17:32] your attention to an object, which
[17:35] you're doing all day, every day, so it's
[17:36] not that big a confrontation with what
[17:39] you're already doing. You're just taking
[17:40] your attention off your thoughts and
[17:42] putting it on your breath. It's just a
[17:43] small shift. And because your breath is
[17:46] um neutral,
[17:48] it's easy to give your attention to your
[17:49] breath. And it's also your breath is
[17:51] transparent, so it already has
[17:53] something of a foretaste of the
[17:55] transparency of your being in it.
[17:58] They don't say, "Well, I give your
[18:00] attention to the to the bulldozer
[18:01] outside your bedroom window." That's
[18:04] They choose a a subtle object, a mantra,
[18:07] a sound, a flame, the breath, something
[18:10] that that that the openness of the sky,
[18:12] something that already that something
[18:13] that
[18:14] >> [music]
[18:14] >> it's an object. So, you can still give
[18:17] your to the
[18:18] to an object of experience. It's not a
[18:20] complete turning around of attention.
[18:23] So, in that sense, it's not too big a
[18:24] confrontation with what you're already
[18:26] doing, but it's a halfway step.
[18:29] And then your attention settles with
[18:31] your breath. And then there's just And
[18:33] you once the person has steadied on
[18:35] their attention on their breath, then
[18:36] you can ask,
[18:37] "Okay, what is it that is aware of your
[18:39] breath?" And you can help them take the
[18:41] step back. And that That's just an
[18:43] example, but I think that's how the
[18:45] traditions became so elaborate. All
[18:47] these different methods and pathways and
[18:49] practice, they were elaborated
[18:50] spontaneously
[18:52] by teachers in response to
[18:55] their students' difficulties and
[18:58] objections and and questions.
[19:01] And I do the same thing, [music] really.
[19:03] I try and take someone directly to give
[19:06] them a taste of their being.
[19:09] But if for one reason or or that that's
[19:11] too difficult, I'll suggest
[19:14] something a little less
[19:16] direct.
[19:18] >> If I begin to recognize that I share my
[19:21] being with everyone, what responsibility
[19:24] does that give me toward other people's
[19:26] suffering?
[19:28] Does it call me to devote my life to
[19:30] helping others, or can that
[19:32] understanding be expressed in an
[19:35] ordinary life in your view?
[19:38] >> I don't feel that someone who has
[19:43] recognized the
[19:45] inherent peace of their true nature
[19:49] and who feels deeply that they share
[19:51] their being with everyone and everything
[19:53] has
[19:55] an obligation
[19:57] to share that understanding in society.
[19:59] I I don't feel they do, or at least
[20:03] I don't feel they have an obligation to
[20:04] share that understanding formally.
[20:08] Some people do.
[20:10] I
[20:11] I do.
[20:12] Um
[20:15] But some people don't. Some people who
[20:18] have this recognition of the nature of
[20:20] their being just
[20:22] go home,
[20:23] go back to their life.
[20:25] They don't have a mission in the world.
[20:27] They don't write about it. They don't
[20:28] teach. They don't start a YouTube
[20:30] channel.
[20:31] They
[20:33] look after their family if they have a
[20:34] family. They They go to work if they
[20:36] need to work. They're a They're a quiet
[20:38] light in their community. They never
[20:41] speak about these matters unless someone
[20:43] asks them a question, in which case they
[20:44] respond, but there's no
[20:46] formal teaching or no formal expression.
[20:50] And I think that's just as valid a
[20:52] contribution to the world
[20:54] as someone who goes out with more of a
[20:57] mission to express this understanding
[20:59] explicitly.
[21:02] Eckhart Tolle has a beautiful
[21:04] phrase for for these people. He calls
[21:06] them the the frequency holders.
[21:09] The people that don't choose to go out
[21:12] into the world
[21:13] and express this understanding. Of
[21:15] course, they express it just by virtue
[21:17] of
[21:18] being. They they exude peace.
[21:21] And anyone that comes near them
[21:24] catches that peace like you catch a cold
[21:27] if you go too close to somebody with a
[21:28] cold. It's contagious.
[21:31] But they don't have any mission in the
[21:33] world. And I feel those people
[21:36] contribute as much
[21:38] to our society subliminally
[21:42] as do those of us
[21:44] like myself who go out more actively.
[21:51] >> We'll be right back after a few
[21:52] announcements.
[22:08] Rupert, let me switch gears, explore
[22:10] this this theme in a slightly different
[22:14] direction, and ask you about the Rupert
[22:17] Spira Foundation.
[22:19] Because the work spans a couple of areas
[22:23] about access and understanding of these
[22:26] teachings,
[22:27] children's books and working with
[22:29] children, and then I understand this
[22:31] human trafficking
[22:33] element. And I wonder if you would talk
[22:35] about
[22:37] how you were motivated to find those
[22:40] expressions as as part of this this
[22:42] topic.
[22:43] >> Yes. Well, the the Rupert Spira
[22:44] Foundation was set up several years ago
[22:46] here in in America. People approached
[22:49] me, and
[22:50] I didn't know anything about 501(c)(3)
[22:52] non-profit organizations. They told me
[22:54] about it. So, we set up this
[22:56] this foundation with with a whose
[22:58] purpose was really to make the non-dual
[23:01] understanding um as widely and as
[23:04] inexpensively
[23:06] available as possible.
[23:09] >> Hey folks, it's Steve here in the edited
[23:11] version just cutting in to define
[23:14] non-duality so we're all on the same
[23:16] page.
[23:17] That word means not two. It shows up
[23:20] across spiritual and mystical
[23:21] traditions. It really just means
[23:23] oneness.
[23:25] In Rupert's teaching, that idea is that
[23:27] beneath our different experiences, we
[23:29] aren't ultimately separate beings. We
[23:32] share one reality which he calls
[23:34] consciousness or being in this podcast.
[23:37] That's the understanding he's inviting
[23:38] us to explore through our own experience
[23:40] and
[23:41] for a fuller introduction, Rupert has a
[23:43] 6-minute video on his website. Go to
[23:46] rupertspear.com/introduction
[23:49] and choose introduction to non-duality.
[23:51] All right, back to the conversation.
[23:56] >> And it's taken us
[23:57] quite a while to get going, but now we
[23:59] are getting going. At the moment, there
[24:01] are there are three main areas.
[24:04] One, we're making a film. I've just
[24:07] written or I'm in the middle of writing
[24:08] a film script and the purpose of the
[24:10] film script
[24:11] is to introduce this this understanding
[24:14] to the mainstream.
[24:16] In fact, there was a man here um
[24:19] he was the director of the very
[24:21] well-known animation Ice Age, uh Chris
[24:24] Wedge, I think. He came to one of my
[24:26] retreats here a couple of years ago and
[24:28] I was sitting with him at lunch one day
[24:30] and I was telling him about my desire to
[24:32] make a film with the foundation and I
[24:34] asked him, "What what do you think is
[24:35] the best genre
[24:37] for expressing this understanding?" He
[24:39] said, "Rupert, don't make a
[24:40] documentary."
[24:42] He said, "People don't go to the cinema
[24:43] to be informed. They go to the cinema to
[24:45] be inspired. Make a feature film." That
[24:48] was a great conversation. So, we are
[24:51] making a a feature film. I'm just
[24:53] writing the script at the moment and
[24:55] working with a
[24:56] very wonderful Estonian film director
[24:59] Peter Rebane who came to one of my
[25:01] retreats in Italy last year and we met.
[25:03] So, that's one thing we're doing. I I'm
[25:05] making a feature film to try to bring
[25:07] this understanding to the mainstream.
[25:09] >> [snorts]
[25:09] >> The second thing
[25:12] I'm writing a series of children's
[25:13] books. The first one is already out.
[25:16] It's called I Am Always I.
[25:18] >> [snorts]
[25:18] >> Um
[25:21] I'm not always happy. I don't always
[25:22] feel free. I'm not always lonely, but I
[25:24] am always me. It's a
[25:27] poem really, beautifully illustrated by
[25:29] an illustrator um
[25:31] Polish Suzanne Selick. Beautifully
[25:34] illustrated book, really drawing
[25:37] children to the ever-present I, the
[25:39] ever-present being behind the
[25:43] the continually changing experience. And
[25:45] we've given away, I don't know how many,
[25:46] 15,000 copies of of this book to to
[25:49] children in the last year or so.
[25:52] And we've got another book in the
[25:53] pipeline, The Blue Sky of Happiness.
[25:56] The Blue Sky of Happiness behind the
[25:57] clouds that's always there behind the
[25:59] clouds of experience even if you can't
[26:01] always feel it. And then there's an
[26:03] another one, Our Shared Being, about
[26:05] sharing our being with everyone.
[26:07] So, that's another um
[26:09] another project ongoing project we're
[26:11] doing to again try to bring this
[26:13] understanding to a
[26:14] to
[26:15] the younger generation for
[26:18] 4 to 12 years old.
[26:21] And then we've also worked quite closely
[26:26] with an an organization called Marici,
[26:29] run by a very good friend of mine who
[26:32] set up an anti-sex trafficking
[26:35] organization in India
[26:37] uh three or four years ago and we work
[26:39] very closely with them.
[26:41] Um so, those are the the three, in fact
[26:43] we have coming to visit us in Devon next
[26:46] month. We have six of his survivors.
[26:47] These These are young very young women
[26:50] who have been rescued
[26:51] um
[26:52] on the streets of Mumbai and and and
[26:55] that they build shelter homes for them
[26:56] and then we're we're helping with an
[26:58] educational program in the shelter
[26:59] homes. Again, bringing the non-dual
[27:01] understanding
[27:03] into their lives. And and and when I say
[27:05] the non-dual understanding, that sounds
[27:06] a bit clinical. What I mean specifically
[27:08] is is
[27:09] trying to
[27:10] help these young women who have been
[27:13] through the most terrible
[27:15] circumstances experiences to try to help
[27:18] them access um a place in themselves
[27:20] that that
[27:21] um
[27:23] is completely free of any trauma.
[27:26] There's a place in themselves that has
[27:28] never been hurt or traumatized.
[27:31] Um so we're we're trying to help them
[27:33] develop
[27:34] programs which they will
[27:37] that they're now expanding into 27
[27:38] cities around the world and building
[27:40] safe houses in in all of the shelter
[27:42] homes in all of these cities. And we're
[27:45] helping them with an educational program
[27:47] in in all of those houses.
[27:50] >> In my own Zen practice, when I look for
[27:53] a fixed separate self, it becomes harder
[27:56] to pin down.
[27:58] How does that fit with what you mean by
[28:01] being?
[28:03] Am I looking for the wrong kind of
[28:04] thing?
[28:06] >> It's true that if you look for the self
[28:12] then it will always seem um elusive,
[28:16] mysterious.
[28:21] You'll never be able to find it, never
[28:22] be able to grasp it.
[28:24] Because
[28:25] the self is
[28:28] what you're looking from. It's not what
[28:30] you're looking for.
[28:32] So if you're looking for a self, you are
[28:35] destined to failure.
[28:38] Because anything you find will be an
[28:40] object
[28:41] of your
[28:42] experience. And you will be the the
[28:44] subject, the knower of that object. So
[28:48] to look for a self is really a
[28:50] contradiction in terms.
[28:53] And so, it it would be good to
[28:54] understand that.
[28:56] It it it would be like looking for the
[28:58] self is like traveling around the world
[29:00] in search of your eyes. You know,
[29:02] you're destined to failure.
[29:05] Better to understand that at the
[29:06] beginning of your journey than to travel
[29:09] all the way around the world and get
[29:11] back home only to realize I can never
[29:13] see my eyes because the eyes, relatively
[29:16] speaking,
[29:17] are the ones that see.
[29:19] So, it
[29:21] >> [clears throat]
[29:23] >> So, so but if we're looking for the
[29:25] self, then yes, the self is mysterious.
[29:27] The self is elusive. Anything you find,
[29:30] >> [music]
[29:30] >> it's not that.
[29:33] But,
[29:35] being
[29:36] is not elusive. On the contrary,
[29:41] everything apart from being
[29:43] is elusive. I mean, take the world, for
[29:46] instance.
[29:48] When you look for the world,
[29:51] what do you find? Perceptions.
[29:54] All anybody has ever known of the world
[29:58] is perceptions.
[30:00] And how long does a perception last?
[30:03] I mean, perceptions, they're fleeting.
[30:06] The world is mysterious. The world is
[30:09] insubstantial. The world is fleeting.
[30:16] If you look for your body, again, the
[30:19] our only actual experience of the body
[30:21] is a flow of sensations and perceptions.
[30:23] That's all that anybody has ever known
[30:26] or or indeed could ever know about the
[30:28] body. So, the idea of a solid, permanent
[30:32] body is a concept
[30:34] that doesn't correlate with experience.
[30:36] So, it's not
[30:38] ourself, it
[30:40] if we can be permitted to call it a
[30:42] self. It's not our self that is fleeting
[30:44] and mysterious. No, our self
[30:48] is the only thing which is, of course,
[30:50] not a thing, which is not fleeting and
[30:53] mysterious. Everything in the world, the
[30:56] body, the mind, God, everything else is
[31:00] fleeting and mysterious. Being is the
[31:03] only thing, which is not a thing, that
[31:05] we are absolutely certain of.
[31:09] >> [music]
[31:11] >> If the Buddha turned up now
[31:14] and said,
[31:15] "Steve,
[31:16] you are not."
[31:20] What would you say to him?
[31:22] >> I think I would argue it a little bit.
[31:24] >> say, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry, [laughter]
[31:27] but I I disagree with you. Even, you
[31:29] know,
[31:30] I say the Buddha because one, he's your
[31:32] tradition, but you know, he he's, you
[31:34] know, one of the great authorities.
[31:35] >> Yes, right.
[31:36] >> Even if the greatest authority were to
[31:39] say to you, "You are not." Your own
[31:42] experience would trump his authority
[31:45] because you are that certain.
[31:47] >> [clears throat]
[31:48] >> If If the Buddha were to say to you,
[31:50] "The world doesn't exist." You'd say,
[31:52] "Yeah, I I I understand the world
[31:54] doesn't exist the way it seems to. All I
[31:57] know of it is a series of fleeting
[31:59] perceptions." You You'd go,
[32:00] but if he said you are not, you would
[32:02] say, "No, I know for absolute certain
[32:06] absolute certainty that I am."
[32:09] And actually, that's the only thing we
[32:12] know for absolute with absolute
[32:14] certainty.
[32:15] So,
[32:18] if we're looking for the self as an
[32:19] object, yes, we're destined to failure.
[32:22] It's It's It's always going to slip
[32:24] away. It's always going to be elusive.
[32:25] The best we can say is
[32:27] it's not that. It's not that. It's not
[32:29] that. But,
[32:30] it's not that is not a satisfactory
[32:33] on we It It's not enough just to know
[32:36] what we are not. It's necessary to know
[32:39] what we are.
[32:41] It is that knowledge, self-knowledge,
[32:44] that brings us to peace.
[32:46] >> Okay, Rupert, the um I'm just going to
[32:49] have a little fun with this and I I
[32:51] don't know if you've gotten a chance to
[32:53] um
[32:54] tackle this question, so
[32:56] I hope it's new or newish, but
[32:59] an artificial intelligence model can
[33:02] produce language that sounds
[33:04] really remarkably thoughtful. Um do you
[33:07] think it could ever have a subjective
[33:09] experience of being in the sense that
[33:11] we've been discussing?
[33:13] >> No, I don't think so.
[33:16] I don't Those AI AI models respond the
[33:20] way they do
[33:22] um because that's the way they've been
[33:23] programmed to respond.
[33:27] Um
[33:29] you know, you you you appear to me now
[33:33] to be conscious.
[33:35] But
[33:37] um if you were a a robot that had been
[33:40] programmed to have exactly the
[33:42] conversation that you and I have now
[33:44] had,
[33:46] in in other words, the robot had said to
[33:48] me exactly what you've said to me during
[33:51] this conversation, would that somehow
[33:53] indicate
[33:55] that the robot
[33:57] was having internal conscious
[33:58] experience, that it was aware of being?
[34:01] No, it says nothing. It's ability to
[34:04] respond to ideas
[34:07] says nothing about whether it has the
[34:09] subjective experience of being.
[34:12] So, no, I don't think a computer will
[34:14] ever have the subjective experience of
[34:16] being.
[34:18] Uh
[34:19] only
[34:20] you see, I think it's
[34:22] I think the whole debate
[34:25] is um
[34:27] founded
[34:29] on a misunderstanding.
[34:31] And I think the misunderstanding is a
[34:32] very simple one. It's actually the
[34:33] foundation of our world culture.
[34:36] And the foundation is is this.
[34:39] That most people feel that
[34:41] being a body
[34:43] is their primary experience.
[34:46] And that being aware is a function of
[34:49] that body.
[34:50] Like breathing or digesting. That's the
[34:54] model on which our world culture is
[34:56] based. We are primarily something
[34:58] physical
[35:00] and consciousness is an epiphenomenon of
[35:03] that physical system. That's a way of
[35:05] putting it scientifically. But but in
[35:07] everyday experience, how does that
[35:09] translate? It translates to most people
[35:11] believing
[35:12] and feeling, my primary experience is
[35:15] being a body and consciousness is
[35:17] something that I as a body have. Well,
[35:20] if that's your
[35:22] fundamental idea
[35:24] and even if people don't formulate it in
[35:26] that way, that's the the core idea that
[35:29] informs our world culture.
[35:32] Then it In other words, if this body
[35:35] this collection of atoms and molecules
[35:37] has consciousness as one of its
[35:40] functions, then it would make sense that
[35:43] one day we may be able to create an
[35:46] artificial collection of atoms and
[35:48] molecules called a computer that also
[35:50] has consciousness as one of its
[35:52] functions. But I think it's a
[35:54] misunderstanding because being a body is
[35:56] not our primary experience. Being aware
[36:00] is our primary experience. And it's not
[36:02] a body that has the experience of being
[36:04] aware. It's awareness that has the
[36:06] experience of being a body.
[36:08] So it's consciousness that is conscious.
[36:11] It's not a body that is conscious.
[36:14] Only consciousness is conscious. So not
[36:16] only will computers never be conscious
[36:19] human beings are not conscious.
[36:22] Consciousness is conscious.
[36:25] Dogs are not conscious. Consciousness is
[36:28] conscious. Consciousness
[36:30] um looks through the perceiving faculty
[36:34] of a dog or a human being or or a bat or
[36:37] whatever and experiences reality
[36:39] according to the limitations of those
[36:41] perceiving faculties, but it's never the
[36:44] entity that is conscious. It's always
[36:46] consciousness that is conscious. So so
[36:48] no, I don't think AI will ever become
[36:49] conscious.
[36:51] And I had I think the whole debate is
[36:52] founded on a misunderstanding.
[36:58] >> We'll be right back after a few
[36:59] announcements.
[37:17] So you've been coming to the Garrison
[37:19] Institute for years now and I was just
[37:21] watching the friendships around the
[37:22] dining hall. What's it like to see that
[37:24] community grow with people returning
[37:27] year after year?
[37:28] >> Yes, I I think
[37:31] the feedback I receive from the universe
[37:34] is the quality of of friendship and
[37:38] engagement from the community. It's when
[37:40] I look around the
[37:41] the dining hall and see the quality of
[37:44] friendship amongst the group and as you
[37:46] say the people who come back year after
[37:48] year that that's the in a way the
[37:50] feedback that I get
[37:52] from the universe to let me know that
[37:54] what I'm doing is
[37:56] of value. And we're this week we're
[37:58] about 130
[38:00] or so people and about 50% come back
[38:04] regularly. They've been coming for many
[38:05] years and 50% are are new which is just
[38:09] exactly the right balance. The old
[38:12] friends give the sense of family,
[38:15] friendliness and and and then the new
[38:17] people that come in ensure that we don't
[38:20] get clicky or cultish. They they bring
[38:23] in new energy and new questions. So,
[38:26] that's very important for a community
[38:27] always to have new people coming in so
[38:30] that it doesn't get so that people are
[38:31] always um asking questions and and not
[38:34] taking anything for granted.
[38:38] >> What's it like to actually spend a week
[38:40] on retreat with you?
[38:42] Are you exploring one central
[38:44] recognition in different ways and
[38:47] I guess I'm curious about how people's
[38:49] questions shape what happens next.
[38:54] >> I
[38:55] people often think that someone in
[38:58] my place, a teacher for want of a better
[39:00] term, comes to a retreat like this with
[39:03] a
[39:05] a vast body of
[39:06] esoteric knowledge which they then
[39:09] disseminate throughout the week.
[39:12] It
[39:13] it couldn't be further from my
[39:15] experience. I come
[39:18] to a a retreat like this with very
[39:20] little
[39:21] knowledge. I don't come with I don't
[39:23] prepare at all.
[39:25] I start on the first evening with a very
[39:27] simple
[39:28] guided meditation. I'm aware that
[39:31] probably 50% of the people I I know them
[39:33] well, so they're familiar with the
[39:35] language, but I know there are
[39:37] probably a few people that have
[39:38] don't even know quite what I mean by the
[39:40] word awareness. So, so I go very very
[39:43] slowly, very simply, just drawing
[39:45] attention to the
[39:46] the fact of being or the fact of being
[39:48] aware.
[39:49] So, the first few meditations are like
[39:51] that, very simple, very experiential.
[39:53] And then actually this afternoon we'll
[39:55] have our first conversation.
[39:57] And then I'll begin to and I'll
[39:58] encourage the newcomers to ask
[40:00] questions.
[40:02] And that will give me a sense of
[40:04] what where I'm losing people.
[40:07] And if I'm losing people, if they don't
[40:09] understand, I consider that
[40:11] my responsibility, not theirs.
[40:14] So, I then get a sense during the
[40:16] conversation of what's not clear to
[40:19] people. Why didn't somebody go all the
[40:21] way to the peace of that true nature
[40:23] this morning? Why do they end up in a
[40:24] boring blank state? And okay, so then
[40:27] tomorrow morning, the meditation will
[40:29] expe- so I'll address their question
[40:31] rationally, but tomorrow morning in the
[40:33] meditation I'll then
[40:34] experientially.
[40:36] So, the retreats are I don't have an
[40:38] agenda. I don't have a
[40:40] a syllabus. I feel people, listen to
[40:43] them, and in a way that the attendees
[40:45] kind of guide where we go.
[40:48] But
[40:49] all I'm really trying to do, one way or
[40:52] another, more or less directly, is to
[40:56] take
[40:58] people in that not not to tell them how
[41:00] things are, but to give them the tools
[41:03] to discover for themselves
[41:06] that the nature of their being is peace,
[41:08] that their being is fulfilled, the
[41:10] experience of happiness that they've
[41:11] been seeking out in the world for
[41:13] decades.
[41:14] The reason they they're on a retreat is
[41:16] because they didn't find it out there.
[41:19] So, I'm just trying to give people the
[41:20] tools to find that peace in themselves.
[41:23] That's the first thing.
[41:25] And then secondly, to to recognize and
[41:27] feel that they share their being with
[41:29] everyone
[41:30] and everything.
[41:31] That's that's really it. That's all I'm
[41:34] trying to do.
[41:35] And then I elaborate the teaching and
[41:37] the methods and the pathways and the
[41:39] practices and the meditations depending
[41:41] on where people
[41:43] have difficulties. And so, I get the
[41:44] feedback in the
[41:46] Q&A sessions, and that's what then
[41:48] initiates the next meditation.
[41:51] So, it's very spontaneous.
[41:54] >> For folks who can't come on retreat,
[41:56] tell me about Luminous. Um it's your new
[41:59] app. What's that offer, and how's that
[42:02] fit into the everyday routine?
[42:05] >> Yes, the app uh not many people have the
[42:09] time, the resources, let alone the
[42:11] inclination to come on a week-long
[42:12] retreat and sit for
[42:15] two 1-hour periods in meditation and so
[42:18] on.
[42:19] Um
[42:20] but everyone's got 10 minutes
[42:22] in a day, sitting on a bus to work or or
[42:25] everyone can find 5 or 10 minutes. So,
[42:28] the Luminous app really distills the the
[42:30] understanding into these short 10-minute
[42:34] contemplations.
[42:35] And the idea it it it's free.
[42:38] The idea is just that you can and and
[42:40] it's a free meditation every day. Every
[42:43] day a different 10-minute meditation, 10
[42:45] or approximately 10 minutes. And the
[42:46] idea is just to make the understanding
[42:48] available in these very small,
[42:50] manageable, direct, experiential
[42:54] contemplations that that last about 10
[42:56] minutes and it's it's it's free and and
[42:59] daily. In in time I hope to to develop
[43:01] it, but at the moment it's just one free
[43:04] short meditation every day
[43:06] with the purpose of um sharing the
[43:08] non-dual understanding widely and
[43:11] inexpensively, in particular for those
[43:12] that don't have the resources to come on
[43:14] a retreat or or even to buy a book or
[43:17] that maybe don't particularly like
[43:19] reading but but they're
[43:21] they're happy to to listen to a to a
[43:23] meditation.
[43:30] >> My thanks to Rupert Spira for joining me
[43:32] here at the Garrison Institute. I'm
[43:34] leaving this conversation with his
[43:36] description of someone who's a quiet
[43:37] light in their community.
[43:39] It's an invitation to consider what our
[43:41] understanding looks like in the ordinary
[43:43] relationships of a day.
[43:46] You can explore Rupert's teaching more
[43:47] at rupertspira.com, including the
[43:50] introductory video we mentioned.
[43:52] Thanks for listening to The Common Good.
[43:54] I'm Steve Varley. See you next time.